Boyfriend Cop Murder Trial – MA v. Karen Read – Day 10

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Thank you to twenty cow versus KarenReid. Can I have counsel identify themselves
out of Miley for the comma?Good morning, mister, good morning you
are Laura McLoughlin for the Good morningMiss mcgloughlin. Jackson, Good morning,
mister Jackson, Good morning, MissLittle, Good morning, mister Eddie.

(00:28):
I'm told there's an objection to somethingyou intend to use during cross Yes,
do you want to come over?Sure? All right, so we're all
said to begin, okay, bringthe jories over. No, that's fine,

(00:59):
I am you are unmuted. MYeah, Land you see, I'm

(01:44):
gonna talk to us. That's right. Rhm here ye here ye hear ye.

(02:13):
All parties having anything to do beforethe Honorable First Justice W. Cononi,
now sitting in the Denham Superior Courtwithin for the County and Norfolk john
Na give your attendant. You shallbe heard. I'll say, call up
in this good court. Thank you. Maybe it's good to proceed it.
Thank you. Good morning again.Counsel and mass Reid, good morning,

(02:36):
thank you. So I do haveto ask you those three questions. Were
you all able to follow the instructionsand refrain from discussing this case with anyone
over the day. Everyone said yes, I nodded affirmatively. Were you also
able to follow the instructions and refrainfrom doing any independent re start your investigation

(03:00):
into this case in Everyone says yes, so nodded affirmatively. Did anyone happen
to see here or read anything aboutthis case since we left? No?
Thank you very much. We'll ringmister Albert back in. Please mhm,

(03:29):
just watch you step one faver courtingduring the case. There here to the
truth, the whole truth, andnothing but the truth. So help me
not I don't thank you to dothe state okay, whenever you're ready,

(03:52):
mister Jackson, Thank you, misterAlbert. This is not this process is
not the first time you've testified inthe Quartab law. No. In fact,
you were a police officer for eitherjust under or just over thirty years,
is that right? Yes? Duringthat time, how many times would
you say that you testified in acourt of law in any capacity? I

(04:14):
would say one hundred. Perhaps,so you'd consider yourself to be an experienced
witman in what aspect in as faras police, as far as being a
witness as a police officer, you'veexperienced testifying in a courtroom. Yes,
okay, so you understand the oath. Yes, you understand the gravity of
perjury. Yes. When was thelast time you spoke to mister Lally before

(04:41):
Friday? When you began testifying beforeFriday? The last time I spoke to
mister Lally was, I believe,on a conference call around the time of
my Grand Jerry testimony, which wouldhave been twenty twenty two. Yes,
April twenty twenty two. Yes,you've not spoken with mister Lai since that

(05:03):
time. I don't remember speaking withmister Lally since that time. No,
what about anybody else from the DistrictAttorney's office? No? Have you gone
over the facts or what you believeto be the facts of your testimony with
anybody before you testified on Friday,not including any lawyer that you may have.
No. Did you discuss any questionsthat you may be asked on direct

(05:25):
examination or questions that you may beposed on cross examination with any member of
the District Attorney's office. No?Were you told about any exhibits or documents
that you might be shown just inthe prep? I believe I was shown
a video of the waterfall BA andthat was back in April of twenty twenty
two. No, that was forthe prep for this trial? With whom

(05:49):
did you prep is? I'm misterLally. I'm confused. I thought you
said you had not spoken with misterLally since April of twenty twenty two,
except for the prep for this trial. I had not. Okay, that
was my question, mister Albert.Okay, I misunderstood your question. I
apologize. Did you prep for thistrial with mister low Yes? When approximately

(06:12):
a few weeks ago? Okay,miser about forty five seconds ago, I
asked you, have you spoken misterLally before your testimony in this process is
proceeding? And your answer was no, I have not. Did you not
understand my question? I did not. What was confusing about it? I
was expecting you to ask if Ihad prepped with mister Lally. I didn't

(06:34):
heir prep with mister Lally, SoI didn't know what you were referring to.
So I said, spoke with misterlay Since I didn't say prepped with
mister Lowly. Your answer was no, I didn't speak with him. I
just prepped with it. Yes,what's the difference between speaking and prepping?
No, there is no difference.I just misunderstood your question. That's all.
Tell me about that prep with misterLow. Sure, I put mister

(06:58):
Lally about the this trial with MisteEllie and my attorney. Where did that
preparation take place? The preparation tookplace, I believe, I'm trying to
remember exactly where it was. Iactually don't recall where it was. Could
it have been at the DA's office, Yes, but it wasn't. It

(07:20):
wasn't that the DA's office. Now, I believe it was somewhere else,
but I can't remember if it washere at the DA's office. I'm not
sure. I also asked you acouple of minutes ago did your view any
documents or any others from preparation foryour test model? And to that question
you also answered no. Well,I said I reviewed the video. Well,

(07:40):
now you're saying you review the video. But when I asked, did
you see any edit, insered documents, anything in preparation for your you said
no. No. I believe Isaid I saw a video. Did you
understand did you misunderstand my question whatI asked the first time as well?
No? Okay, I'm going totry to be clearer with my questions.

(08:01):
Okay, let me try it again. What if anything have you reviewed in
anticipation of your testimony in this fall? So? I reviewed a video of
the waterfall? Anything else? Ireviewed my transcript from the Grand Jerry.
So you have reviewed your prior testimony, my transcript of the Grand Jerry?

(08:22):
Yes, which is prior test prep? Yes? When did you do that?
I did that during during the prep? What part of the waterfall video
did mister Lowy show you? Iwas a small snippet of the video,
and I just one of the twentyseconds of video during that night. Which
part there's a lot of video thetorWhich part if you can tell us which

(08:45):
part did you review with mister lawIt just showed the waterfall, It showed
patrons, It showed myself and theother people I was with. What were
you doing in that twenty second snippetof that video? I believe in one
in one part of it, Iwas fooling around with Brian Higgins. Fooling
around, Yes, means we werejust fooling around. That's it, fooling

(09:11):
around like like our Muslim No.I don't think we were on wrestling.
I think we were just pushing eachother fooling around, so playfighting. I
don't think I would call it playfighting. No, I was just remember
seeing the part of the video wetook a fighting stance sort of like this.
I actually don't remember that. PotNo, no, remember a part

(09:33):
of the video where Brian Higgins tooka fighting stance like this? Maybe?
Yes, do you approach one another? I don't think I saw that whole
video. No, practicing fighting techniques, don't. I wouldn't call up that.
Now you can have that. I'msorry. What was your answer to
that, mister Albert? No,So what you reviewed with mister Lowy was

(09:54):
the portion of the video where youand mister Higgins were somehow fooling around,
and well, how would you describeit? It's not finding exactly. How
would you describe just joking, beingsilly, just falling around, okay,
doing what physically doing? If you'rea phrase physically I mean you could joke
with words, right, you justjoking with words like a stand up comedian?

(10:16):
Or were you doing something physically?No? I think we were pushing
each other, fooling around, joking. Okay, did you ever show him
how to throw a punch? Can? What did you throw him? Did
you show him how you would throwa punch. I don't remember that.
Now. Did you squat down,show him how you want to get low
when you're either aggressive or defending anaggression? I don't remember that exact pose.

(10:41):
Now. Did he walk over toyou and grab you and act like
he was going to drive a kneeinto your stomach? I'm not sure.
At some point did you flip himaround grab him in a wrestling hold?
I may have, I just don'tremember it exactly. Do these things sound
familiar when you reviewed as to yourreview of the video that you saw with

(11:05):
mister Lally, No, I didn'tsee all those on the video, mister
Lali. Did you discuss with misterLalie the questions that you might be asked
by him on direct examination? Didhe go through here the topics of conversation
that we're going to have, No, not like that. Did he go
over with you what he believed thetopics of conversation might be on cross examination

(11:26):
by either myself or the genetic Ibelieve so. Yes. What did he
tell you you might be asked?I don't remember exactly what he had told
me. He said we could beasked about the night at the water fall.
We could be asked about back atthe house, things like that,

(11:46):
anything else, not that I canremember. Is there anything given your conversation
with mister Lally, is there anythingthat you want to change about the testimony
that you previously gave under oath withtwenty twenty two? No, the fact
that you've not reviewed that testimony.No, you stick by that testimony.
Yes. Have you watched any ofthese proceedings on any platform before your testimony?

(12:13):
No? Never tuned into anything that'slive streaming. I need the media
coverage. No. You're aware thatyour wife testified before you. Yes?
Did you just I don't want toknow what the words were. Did you
discuss her testimony with her before youtestified? No? So she came home
after testifying in this trial and youtwo never brought it up. No.

(12:39):
I just asked her how she wasdoing, and that was it. Mister
Albert, you close friends with BrianHiggins. I wouldn't describe it as close
friends. Now she's a fellow lawforcementofficer. Correct, Yes, works for
the ATF. He does the Departmentof the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco On,
Firearms and Explosives. Correct. Yes, How long have you known mister
Higgins. I think I first metmister Higgins about fifteen years ago. How

(13:03):
did you meet him? It wasa professional something at work. We may
have worked together. I think atthe time he was a Cambridge Arson Squad
member, and I think he cameinto the city of Boston to do something
for work. So you've known himfor fifteen years and you were with him

(13:24):
on January twenty eight, twenty twentytwo. Correct. Yes, And he's
the person that you were quote jokingand fooling around us, right. Yes,
you had a long road trip withmister Higgins on January twenty eighth,
twenty twenty two, didn't you?Is there? What's the question? You

(13:46):
have a long road trip with misterHiggins on January twenty eighth, twenty twenty
two. Correct. We drove fromNew York to Boston. Yes, pretty
good drive, you'd say, yes, consider that a road trip? Yes,
how long? I don't know ifit was probably somewhere around four hours
maybe. Once you got back fromNew York to back up to Boston an

(14:11):
area, the two of you stoppedat location correct? Yes, What was
the location? The hillside? Andwhat did you two do at the hillside?
We went into the hillside, hada drink, talked, and I
think Brian may have voided food.So once you got back from that relatively
long road trip, at four hourlong trip, four hour long road trip,

(14:35):
I apologize you stopped at a barand started drinking. Correct, Yes,
do you have anything to eat atthe hillside? I did not,
but Brian did Higgins? Did Ileft prior to Brian Higgins eating during the
course of that road trip or atthe hillside. Did the two of you
discuss hearing read my client? No? Did her name ever come up?

(14:58):
No, without telling me anything thatthey have actually said. Did he mention
Karen Reid or a topic of KarenReid? No? Never did he mention
the fact that he'd been texting andflirting with Karen Reid two weeks prior.
No, So that subject, accordingto you, was never addressed approached by
mister Higgins for you. No,during that entire day. No. After

(15:22):
you arrived at the waterfall, JohnO'Keeffe arrived subsequent there too, right,
yes, how long after approximately fortyfive minutes maybe, and Karen Reid was
with him, is that right?Yes, Brian Higgins was standing right next
to you when she came in alongwith John o'keeth. Correct, I'm not
sure where people were standing when theyarrived. Well, you remember being you

(15:46):
saw him, not of I don'tbelieve there's any I saw a video of
them walking into waterfall mount fair enough, as you saw at least a clip
according to you saw a clip ofthat video of you at the waterfall.
Yes, you were situated at ahigh top table right, yes to the
cameras, all right. I'm notsure of the camera angles the video that

(16:08):
I saw. I was at thehigh top table, but I'm not sure
of all the camera angles of theof the waterfall. Brian Higgins is the
guy with the sweatshirt, maybe ahearty Davis and then little on the back
or something. I'm not sure whathe wore that that night. I'm sure
he had a sweatshirt on, butI don't know what the emblem was.
You standing right next to you inthe video clip that you saw. Yes,

(16:32):
In other words, that was thevideo where he was standing right next
to you. YouTube turned to eachother and start this like fining thing.
Yes, So it's if it's thattime or sometime around there at the high
top you were in proximity of BrianHiggins when Karen Reid and John O'Keeffe came
into the bar. Correct, Ijust don't recall the timing of when they
came into the bar, Mister Albert, Did mister Higgins say anything to you

(16:56):
at that time about John o'keeff arrivedwith Karen Reid at his side. No,
did mister Higgins say anythink to youabout being upset that Karen Reid had
shown up with John O'Keefe. No. Describe your relationship with John O'Keeffe if
you would so. I didn't knowJohn that well. I had only met

(17:18):
him a few times, but everytime I met him, it was cordial,
pleasant, and I would consider himto be a co worker, even
though I never really worked with himdirectly. He seemed like a nice guy.
I knew his whole story about thefact that he had taken his niece
and nephew after a tragedy in thefamily, and I had an unbelievable mode

(17:38):
of respect for him doing that.But I can't say that we were good
friends because I didn't really know himall that well. You were far better
friends with Brian Higgins than you werewith John o'keef. That's fair to say.
Yes. On Friday, you wereasked whether or not you knew my
client Karen Reid. Correct, thismeaning a couple of days ago direct examination.

(18:00):
I believe so yes. You werealso asked the same series of questions
at another grand jury not involving theCommonwealth. Remember that in June of twenty
twenty three. Yes, I wantto be clear about these this other hearing
that was a non commonwealth hearing infront of the grand jury. Correct,
yes, all right, mister Lalianand his colleagues were not there? Is

(18:23):
that right? Yes? I wasnot there. Mister Yunetti was not there?
Yes, or miss miss little right? Okay, at that June twenty
twenty three, And I'm going totalk about a couple of days, so
I don't want to be confusing.At that June twenty twenty three non commonwealth
hearing, you were asked some questionsabout whether or not you knew Karen Reed

(18:45):
before January twenty eighth, twenty twentytwo. I believe so sit in question.
I believe so yes. And youtestified. Before you testifying, you
were sworn in off yes, sameoath that you swore in this wow.
Correct, yes, swear to tellthe truth, the whole truth of nothing
but the truth. Yes, andyou knew that you were testifying under penalty

(19:06):
of perjury in that hearing as well. Correct. Yes, And you testified
at that non Commonwealth grand jury thatyou quote believe Karen was with John the
night he came into Hillside. Afemale that looked similar to Karen from the
waterfall came in with him on thatnight, and I assume that was her,
but I can't say for sure.End quote. That was your testimony

(19:30):
before that that grand jury. Yes, but you were also asked a similar
question in April of twenty twenty twoby mister Lally at his grand jury.
Do you remember that? No,let's start at the beginning. Before you
testified in the April twenty twenty twoGrandeur, more than a year earlier and

(19:53):
just three months after this incident,you were sworn an oath correct, Yes,
same old you took in June oftwenty twenty three, right, Yes,
And the same oath you took onFriday. Yes. Isn't it true
that you were asked the question whetheror not you knew Karen Reid on January
twenty eighth to twenty twenty two andyou testified quote I've never met or seen

(20:18):
her before end quote. No,I don't recall that. Didn't you indicate
that you just testify. I'm sayingthat you review your grand jury testimony and
anticipation to this trial. Yes,you'd read the whole thing. Yes,
and you don't recall making that statement. No, there, Coach John,

(20:38):
Yes, and Elsie consulate tie bywhen you leave that with the witness,
just please take a look at that, sure, je Yes, Telvin,
if you have an opportunity to dothat, I have, thank you.

(21:00):
Does that refresh your recollections to whatyou said before the grand Juary of the
April of twenty twenty two, Yes, but you didn't read the whole You
didn't read the whole quote. Though. The whole quote is the following question.
So the female you had never metbefore? Is that fair to say?
Answer? No, I've never mether or seen her before period.

(21:25):
Maybe once, but I don't thinkI've ever had a conversation with her.
That was the entire quote. Correct, that's the entire quote. Yes,
that's not what you read earlier.But yes, well what I read earlier
was i've never seen I'm sorry,I've never met or seen her before those
words came out of your mouth.Correct, that's not my whole sentence.

(21:45):
No, you said I've never metor seen her before, and then you
said maybe once, but I've neverhad a conversation with her. I don't
think right. That's yes, that'smy sentence. Okay, So which is
it, mister Albert? What wereyou saying? Were you saying you met
her and had a conversation with her, or were you saying I've never met
or seen her before? Which oneof those two things was true? I

(22:07):
was saying that I met her maybeonce. Actually, what you said was
i've never met her or seen herbefore. Your words, not my words,
sir. Is that right? No, because in the next sentence,
I say I met her maybe once. So you literally changed your testimony within
your own testimony. Objection. No, can you answer that, mister Alvert?

(22:29):
I believe I qualified my first sentencewith his second sentence. So what
changed between the first sentence where youindicated unequivocally I've never met or seen her
before and the second sentence when yousaid maybe once. I'm not sure what
I was thinking at the time thatI said that. Isn't it true?
Mister Albert. Not only had youmet miss Reid, but you had spent

(22:51):
several hours with Karen Reid and JohnO'Keefe six days before this incident. Is
that true? No? In fact, on January twenty second, twenty twenty
two, six days before January twentyeighth, you socialized with Karen Reid at

(23:12):
the Hillside Bar for several hours,didn't you. I was at the Hillside
Bar of the week prior. Yes, it was a Saturday night. Correct.
Yes, you were at the bar. Yes, several other folks at
the bar. Correct, several people. Yes, that included Chris Albert,
your brother. Yes, I namedTim Day yes, Dai l Y is

(23:33):
that right. I'm not sure howto spell this last name. Julie Albert
was there, yes, Jenny mccabwas there. Yes, Matt McCabe was
there. Yes. John o'keef wasthere, Yes he was. And Karen
Reid was there correct, Yes shewas in fact right, Yes, I

(23:59):
like you to take a look ata photograph. Just look at it to
yourself for a second. Tell meif you're familiar, familiar as yourself with
it, and you look up whenyou're ready. Yes, yes, Actually
I don't need you mister Robert,you can stay there. Do you recognize
the photograph it's before you? Yes? How do you recognize it? Well?

(24:25):
I recognize the people within the photographand the background of the photograph looks
like the hillside that appear to bea photograph that was taken on January twenty
second. Yes, the hillside bYes, published this? Okay? Is
it already an evidence or you?I'm sorry? I so you put it
in evidence first, and then youpublish it that marked as next in order,

(24:48):
Yes, and then thank you permissionto publish on Yes, you see

(25:12):
that photograph, it's the same photographthat you're looking at in front of.
Yes, describe who the people aregoing from left to right, So Chris
Albert, myself, John O'Keefe,and Tim Daily. And this was on
January twenty second, twenty twenty two, at about eleven pm. Correct,

(25:33):
Yes, yes, mister Albert.Who took the photo? I don't know.
Karen Reid took the photo, didn'tshe. I have no idea who
took that photo. Karen Reid tookthe photo? You're literally staring right at

(25:53):
her. Correct, I don't knowwho took the photo. Who else?
Do you think you could, well, there are a lot of people there.
You mentioned my sister two sister inlaw is a brother in law.
I'm not sure we can turn thelights back on. Please and take the
photo down. Did you ever seethis photo from Jim McKay No? Do

(26:22):
you ever see it from Julie Albert? No? Chris Albert didn't take it.
He's in it right. Tim didn'ttake it. He's in it right.
You obviously didn't take it right.And who's the guy on the far
right, Tim? That was Tim? Who's the guy next to Tim?
Sean right? So who do youthink? Do you still need the photo

(26:45):
up? I'm sorry, I thoughtyou were done with it. Do you
do you remember? Yeah? Itwas John? Yeah, yes, I
don't okay. So, given thefact that you were never shown that foot,
you've never seen that photo before today, I saw a photo that was
sent to me in discovery or tomy attorney that showed only I believe me

(27:07):
and John in the picture. Ithink it's the same photo, only that's
blown up to show everybody. So, given what we now know about that
night, who's there? In fact? That John her a photo right next
to you? You took the photo? I have no idea who took the
photo could have been Karen Reid sustained. Let's move along. You were interacting

(27:37):
with Karen Reid and John O'Keefe throughoutthat evening. Correct, I remember having
conversations with John that evening. Idon't necessarily remember speaking to Karen that evening,
ir respective whether or not you spoketo her there, Yes, with
her for a couple of hours.Well, I wasn't there with her for
a few hours. I was therewith other people. So without fleeting work

(28:00):
with fleeting hairs, she was there, correct, Yes, John was there.
Yes, you were socializing with John. Yes, she's right next to
him sometimes perhaps not maybe all thetimes I was talking to him. Now,
so you were socializing, not exclusivelywith her, right, certainly socializing
with her six days before John O'Keefeended up dead on your lawn. Correct,

(28:25):
We were there at the same time. Yes, And yet when you
were asked three months later, doyou know Karen Reid or how do you
know Karen read? The actual worstwas so the female you've never met before?
Is that fair to say? Thatwas mister Lowley's question, and your
immediate response was no, I've nevermet her or seen her before. Correct,

(28:49):
that's what that said. That's notmy whole response. Now, that's
what you said immediately upon that question, sir, that's the beginning of my
response. Yes, that was thefirst sentence out of your mouth. Yes.
You also testified at the subsequent grandjury in June of twenty twenty three,
when asked what was your impression ofmiss Reid, you said, quote,

(29:12):
I honestly didn't really have one.I didn't have any conversation with her.
I just kind of saw her fromacross the table. I didn't really
think of it either way, correct. I don't know what that question is
referring to. Is that for thewaterfall or is that for hellside? Okay,
yes, all right. So inJune of twenty three, a little

(29:37):
over a year later, your testimonysignificantly changed from No, I've never met
or seen her before too. Ireally didn't have a conversation with her.
I saw her across the table.I didn't really think of it either way.
Correct. No. I think thoseare very similar testimonies. When you
were asked in the other proceeding,and this is about the waterfall question,

(30:00):
did you talk to Karen Reid atthe waterfall that night? You answered unequivocally,
I did not. Is that right? Yes? And that's what you
told the June grand jury June oftwenty three, right, a reference to
the State grand area. Okay,I'm trying to use these dates. I'm

(30:21):
trying to be careful, right April, I'm just not I'm just not clear
on what all the dates were.I'll see if I can clarify. Okay,
April twenty twenty two, State Grandury, June of twenty twenty three,
a different graduate. Okay, Whenyou were asked that the June of twenty
twenty three grand jury, did youever talk with Karen Reid at the waterfall

(30:42):
that night? Your answer was Idid not. Yeah, yes, ok,
with the court permission, could Iplay a small clip from these twenty
three okay, starting a timestamp elevenfifty three and fifteen seconds. If we
could just play this, and Iwould direct your attention, sir to the

(31:04):
upper riding at the corner. Awesome. Do you recognize the individuals in this
clip? Yes? Recognize that person? Yes, I believe that's me.
Recognize that I do. I believethat's the defendant, miss read Yes,

(31:30):
what does it appear you are doing? As it relates to this read.
In this clip, it appears andI'm talking at the table. I don't
know if it's specifically to her,but so did you see the part of
the clip starting at eleven fifty threeand fifteen seconds going back about thirty seconds,

(31:53):
Yes, who did it appear youwere talking directly to? And who
did appeer was answering directly to you? I looked like I was speaking,
but I can't say for sure thatI was directly talking to the defendant,
even though it looked like you werelooking right at her and leaning toward her
answer. I was definitely looking thatway. I just I don't remember the

(32:14):
conversation. The reality is wouldn't takethat down. The reality is mis drover.
You had many conversations with it throughoutthe night, like you would with
anybody else you were socializing with.Correct. No, it's not like you
ignored her through that evening. No, I just know I think that just
the positioning of me on the otherside of the table, I didn't have
really much contact. There was onlyone person. No, I don't think

(32:37):
that was the setup for the wholenight. I didn't say the whole right
talking about right then? Right?So, so for example, right,
what's your question? Rephrase your question? Please? Do you or did you
not have conversations with Karen Me thatnight? I didn't. I do not
recall having conversations with Karen Me thatnight at all. Now, and that's

(32:58):
what you told Grand Jurie under oathnot I was standing this video of anence
to the contrary. Yes, Idon't think that that video shows that I'm
going to let that stand. Nextquestion, please, You were interviewed by
Michael Proctor on January twenty ninth,the day after this incident. Correct.
Yes, and that was six daysafter you spent several hours Karen Reid at

(33:24):
this event. Correct, six dayslater. Yes, you were asked by
Michael Proctor whether or not you knewor what your relationship was with Karen Reid.
Correct. I don't recall if heasked me that. Did you say
to Michael quote that you quote didnot know Karen Reid end quote. I

(33:49):
may have, yes, But whenyou made that statement, you did not
know that this read had a photographof you at the hillside bar. Correct.
You didn't know that photo exists.Objectionary assistin sir, you were trying
to distance yourself from this read inyour interview with Michael Croft. Weren't you,
objection who are you no? Iwas not, mister Albert, You

(34:13):
were trying to distance yourself from knowingthis read in your grand jury testimony with
well, I'll use the date inyour April twenty twenty two grand jury testimony.
Weren't you no, You were furthertrying to distance yourself from this read
in your June twenty twenty three grandjury testimony as well. Correct. No,

(34:34):
you thought that it was important totry to deny knowing John O'Keeffe and
Karen Reid during those interviews and orthat testimony. Objection sustained, Mister Albert,
you knew that if you admitted havinga relationship with John O'Keeffe and Karen
Reid, you'd have a lot toanswer for when Karen Reid's boyfriend ended up
dead on your lawn six days later. Correct, Objectioner sustained, you can

(34:59):
ask the question differently. You knewthat there would be questions about your relationship
with Karen Greed if it would haveknown that you knew her before her boyfriend
ended up dead on your lawns sixdays later. Correct, There would be
questions. Objection, You can askit a different way, that sustained.

(35:21):
So you lied under oath when yousaid I've never met or seen her before.
Correct, No, because that wasn'tmy whole statement. The sentence I've
never met or seen her before prettyunequivocal, isn't it. That was not
the context of my whole sentence.That's the words that Those are the words
that came out of your mouth rightinitially, and then I remembered that I

(35:45):
had met her once. He justasked it this way. Sure is that
sentence true or false? That youhad never met or seen her before?
Trureor false? That portion of thatsentence is false. Let's get this on
the record. Did John O'Keeffe comeinto your house at thirty four Fairview at
any time on January twenty ninth,twenty twenty two. Absolutely not. I

(36:10):
wish he had. And you're assure about that as you are about the
statement that you had never met orseen Karen Reid, eight year old life
objection. Sustained. Can ask itdifferently, mister Jackson. I want to
get back to the waterfall. Iknow I asked you this about the hillside.

(36:32):
I may not have asked you aboutthis specific question about the waterfall.
Did Brian Higgins say anything to youabout John O'Keeffe and Karen Reid walking in
together at the waterfall. No,didn't say anything or give you any indication
that he was upset about Karen Reidshowing up with John O'Keefe. No,

(36:53):
he did not. It appeared fromyour observations that John and Karen were getting
along at the waterfall. I didn'treally notice, but I didn't notice anything
was wrong. They appeared pleasant,yes, happy. I don't know if
they appeared happy. I didn't reallynotice they were interacting with others. Yes,

(37:14):
you didn't notice any tension, no, no argument, no yelling or
fighting. Nope, they looked likea normal happy column. Yes. Did
either of them appear to you tobe completely drunk? I didn't have a
ton of interaction with John or Karenthat night, so I can't really say.
But it didn't appare them that theywere drawnk Now you had an opportunity

(37:36):
to review the waterfall video. Youdid it with Sally correct the only small
portion of it, right. Buteven in that small portion, and based
on your memory, you don't rememberthat anybody get stumbling drunk and falling down
over schools and things of that nature. No, okay, they appeared to
be acting appropriately, Yes, andinteracting with others appropriately. Yes, people
were buying drinks for others. Isthat right? I'm sure I don't exactly,

(38:00):
but I'm sure that was going on. Yes. That unusual to say,
hey, i'll get this round right. Yes? You left the waterfall
at eleven fifty eight? Is thatright? Yes? Approximately? Who was
invited to come over to your houseon leaving the waterfall? Whoever wanted to?

(38:22):
Really, you've been drinking since aboutwhat time in the evening or the
afternoon? Ninish? That's when youwent to the hillside. Yes, that's
when you had your first drink.Yes, and you continued drinking throughout the
evening consistently. Yes. Did youbelieve you were okay to drive? Yes?
What kind of car did you haveat the time? Ford Edge Black?

(38:45):
Yes? Who wrote? Did youdrive that car home from the waterfall?
Yes? Who rode with you?And my wife and my daughter?
What are the cars when in thedriveway when you got there? I don't
recall Brian Higgins cheap was in thedriveway backing up as we pulled in,
So kind of in your way.Yes. In other words, that you
were going to park. You weregoing to park him in. I didn't

(39:07):
want I didn't want to block himin right right, So you waited until
he moved his jeep out of theway, Yes, and then he pulled
in. Yes. Where in thedriveway did you pull in? I believe
I pulled to the left side ofthe driveway. You would have been closest
to the garage or was there acar between you and the garage. I
would have been closest to the leftside walkway. I don't think there was

(39:29):
a current in front of me,but I'm not one hundred percent. Mister
Albert, did you move that blackFord edge at any point that night after
you got home? No. BrianHiggins was the first person to actually physically
get to the house. You gotthere before you correct? Yes, describe
his jeep? He had a jeepwrangler. I believe it's white. I

(39:52):
think it's white. Any appendage onit that plow a snow plow on the
front, Yes, the hydraulic goup and down. I didn't see it
that closely. I'm assuming I can, but I don't know that for sure.
After mister Higgins moved out of yourway, out of the driveway.
Where did he put that geep,I don't know. I don't know where

(40:12):
he packed. So you wouldn't havegotten into the house if you left Waterfall
at eleven fifty eighth to get outto your car, get into your car,
start it up, drive home,wait for Brian Higgins to move his
gee park your car didn't get intothe house. That's a fair assessment of
the mechanism of you getting home thatnight. Correct, Yes, you wouldn't

(40:37):
have gotten into the house until whattwelve fifteen, maybe fifteen minutes? For
all that, I would put itmore maybe ten past twelve, Okay,
twelve ten or so that would justbe that would just be a guess.
So it could have been twelve fifteen, Yeah, and it could have been
twelve or seven. Who was insidethe house when you walked in. My

(40:58):
nephew Colin, my son Brian,and then he had two friends, female
friends. I believe it's Sarah andJulie. What were they doing inside house?
They were sitting at the kitchen tableand your nephew callin. How old
was he at the time, Ibelieve seventeen or eighteen? Describe him in

(41:22):
what way? Wait, so twoand a half years ago, so he
was probably five to eleven, maybesix feet and probably one hundred and you

(41:42):
know, I'm guessing one hundred andseventy five pounds. Big boy, he's
all right bigger than me significantly.Yes, athletic guy. Yes, played
football, Yes, good football.Yes, he testified that you went to
the bathroom after you arrived home.Correct. Yes, I have to say,

(42:04):
and hi to everybody. I wentto the bathroom. Was that upstairs
or downstairs? I'm not sure.I have a bathroom downstairs and end up
not downstairs, but on that floorand then upstairs, so I'm not sure
which one I went to when youcame. Think it was upstairs, I'm
sorry I didn't. I think itmay have been upstairs, but I'm not
sure when you came back downstairs fromthe bathroom or came out of the bathroom
wherever it was. You no longersaw calling. Yes, prior to going

(42:27):
to the bathroom calling, I hadsaid that he was getting picked up,
But you never saw him leave.No, you didn't see him leave the
house, and you didn't see himget picked up by anybody. I did
not. You didn't see a caroutside waiting for him. Correct. I
didn't know. You did give aninitial statement on the morning of the twenty
ninth to Michael Lank about seven am. Is that right? No, Officer

(42:51):
Link was in the house at thattime and speaking to all of us.
Really, and you've admitted that youhave known Michael Lank for many years?
Is that right? Yes? Didyou see that as a problem in what
way? Conflict of interests? JackSchier, I'll let him have it.
Did you see that as a conflict? No? You were asked who was

(43:12):
president at the house that night thenight before? Right? Yes, you
stated the following people were at thehouse that night quote in response to Officer
Lank's question at some point during thetime in question. That's how he phrased
the question who was at the houseat some point during the time in question?
You understood that, right. Idon't recall his question. No,

(43:34):
you knew that he was asking who'sin the house, that's right. Yes,
So you mentioned Brian Albert Jr.Yes, your son, You mentioned
Katelyn Albert, your eldest. Yes, You mentioned Julian Nagel, Yes,
mentioned Brian Higgins, yes. Andthen you added the detail that Caitlyn Albert
had left your house about twelve tofifteen am. Correct, No, you

(43:57):
didn't say that I did not thatmay happen to mor Yes, m hm,
yes, show mister Lalley. I'msorry. So you don't have to
sit and read the entire thing.There's a right at the top of this

(44:22):
book that there's a word that saysnext if you read that area that the
next few sentences, let me knowwhen you're finished. H Yes, thank

(44:42):
you, Jobert. Did you havean opportunity to review that portion of a
report I did? Did that refreshmentrecollection about a conversation that you had along
with your wife with Officer Lank?Yes? Isn't it true that Officer Lank
asked you ask you and your wifewho else was in the house that night

(45:06):
aside from the names already mentioned,and then nick names mentioned were Brian Albert
Jr. Caitlin Albert, Julie Nagel, Brian Higgins who is a friend of
Brian Albert Sr. End quote.Is that right? That's what the report
says. Yes, And then thereport goes on to say they advised me
that their daughter Caitlin left the housearound twelve to fifteen am. When she

(45:30):
was picked up by her boyfriend,Christen Morris. Right, that's what the
report says. Yes, so youthink Officer Lank got it wrong? Perhaps?
Yes, did you say that Caitlinleft about twelve to fifteen? No?
Did Nicole say in your presence thatCaitlin left about twelve to fifteen?
She did not. At any pointdid Officer Lank ask you what time Caitlin

(45:54):
left. I don't recall him askingthat there was a very chaotic morning,
and I I don't remember him sayingthat. So the fact if he wrote
that sentence in the report which youjust read, he's just taking that up.
Jaction here sustain different way, becauseif that's what Officer Lake recalls,
he's just well right, Yes,anything else that he's wrong about on them?

(46:19):
I didn't read the whole report atno point. Isn't it true that
at no point during that interview didyou admit or mentioned that Colin Albert had
been at the house that night.I don't believe I did know. At
no point during that interview did yourwife, Nicole, in your presence,
admit or mention that Colin Albert wasin the house that night. No,
So did both of you conveniently forgetthat Colin was there, Jackson, Did

(46:46):
you forget that Colin had been there? No? Is there a reason that
you left his name out because hewasn't there. He left when we got
there. He wasn't there for theduration of the of the time that we
had that night, except for thefact that you just specified you never saw
him, right. Well, hesaid he was getting picked up and then

(47:08):
he was gone, So I assumeddo you left? People say a lot
of things, But you didn't seehim leave, and you didn't see him
in the regular floor of the houseaccording to you, correct right read,
he was no longer in my house, so he left. Well, you
didn't search the house, did youknow? And you never saw him leave.
I didn't physically see him leave.No. You also gave a statement

(47:30):
to Michael Proctor later that morning.It was about noon, maybe this in
the afternoon noon, twelve thirty somethinglike that. How are you asking?
On the twenty ninth, you later, after you spoken officer length, you
later were interviewed by Trooper Michael Procterover Jim mccage's house. Do you remember
that, Yes, Colin's name wasnever mentioned then either. No, because

(47:53):
Colin wasn't at the house for theduration of the night. So when they
said who was in the house,talks about Brian Alert, Caitlin, Albert.
Yes, yes, yes, therewere other people in the house prior
to us arriving. I didn't mentionthem either. Who was that? There
were some females friends that were overprior to our arrival in a but you

(48:16):
never saw it, So you haveno idea who was there? Who wasn't
there before you got there? No, I know that there were people at
the house prior to me getting there, is Robert. The question that would
have been opposed to you by severalofficers was who did you see in your
home when you got there? Correctection. I don't believe that's how it was

(48:37):
asked. No, but Colin's namewas never mentioned left out. I testified
multiple times that Colin was there whenwe arrived. Oh you did it after
the right Yes, when I wasat the defense, do that Colin was
there chection assisting in your initial reportsto the police. Was never mentioned,

(49:00):
was it? I did not mentionit. Now and Nicole did not mention
it in your presence that she inmy presence. Now let's talk about Kitlyn
Albert, your eldest. You toldOfficer Lank that your daughter, Well,
according to officer let me rephrase thequestion, they saw our calicque back and
forth. According to Officer Lank.You're aware that he wrote he was told

(49:25):
she's gone by twelve fifteen. Correct, that's what he wrote in a poet.
Yes, if Caitlyn was gone bytwelve fifteen, she would not have
been there when John and Karen arrivedto the house. Correct, because they
didn't arrivee for fifteen minutes later.But she was at the house, so
that would be hypothetical. Okay,so fine hypotheticals. Let's let me ask

(49:50):
you a hypothetically, if in factCaitlin was gone by twelve fifteen, that
would mean, hypothetically, she wouldnot have been there when John and Karen
arrived fifteen minutes later. Objection,I assistant, when you were interviewed by

(50:10):
Officer Lank that morning, other peoplewere in the room, not just you
an Officer Lane. Correct. Yes, I wouldn't consider that wanting to be
an interview with Officer Lank, moreconversation. Yes, during that conversation,
Nicole was there. Yes, shewas in your shot. Yes, when

(50:34):
she was being when she was involvedin the conversation. You were within your
shot. Yes, Brian Junior wouldhave been within your shot. Brian Junior
wasn't downstairs most of that morning,so he may not have been thank he
was there for part. Yeah,but I'm not sure that he was there
at the time my lank. OfficerLank was asking questions. The fact of

(50:57):
the matter is not with standing whatOfficer Lank wrote that you said about Caitlin
leaving in twelve fifteen. He didnot leave at twelve fifteen? Is that
right? She did not know asa matter of fact, in truth,
except for the people who lived there, Caitlin was the very last person to
leave that location that morning. Correct. I believe so. Yes, And

(51:21):
she's admitted that she did not leaveuntil nearly two am. Correct, churcktion
assistinct. You're aware that she didnot leave until one forty five or thereafter.
Is that right? I believe that'saround the time. Yes. Were
you trying to cover for Caitlin soyour daughter would not be wrapped up in
this investigation? No, But asa reminder, when you were spoken to

(51:47):
by the first two officers who discussedwho was in the house, you never
mentioned Colin was even there. Correct, Church, we've gone over that next
question, police sustain if Colin wasgone, just like Caitlyn was gone,

(52:07):
that would eliminate them from ever beingin the house at the same time as
John O'Keefe and character Right. Objectionassistent. On January twenty ninth, about
eleven thirty or twelve, we talkedabout the fact that you were interviewed by
Michael Proctor at Jim McCabe's house.Correct. Yes, you knew at the
time that the state police were lookingto interview Jennifer McCabe about her understanding of

(52:31):
what was what had happened the nightbefore. Objection as sustained, you were
notified that the state Police were goingto interview Jen McKay. Jaction allow where
you notified that, No, youknew the subject matter of an interview with

(52:52):
Jim McKay was going to happen overthe subject matter of the night before was
going to happen over Jim mcag's house. That's why you went there, right
Objaction No, No, isn't ittrue that you knew you had been notified,
or at least you believed that aninterview with Jim McCabe as part of
an official police investigation was going tooccur at her house. Yes, you

(53:13):
were not asked by the police tojoin her. Correct. No, you
had no official reason to be atJim mckaye's house. Correct, What do
you I don't know what you meanby official reason. You were not working
for the investigation yourself with this correct. Right, So, you had no
official reason to be at Jenn mcaye'shouse during an interview with Jim mckayjection,

(53:36):
don't you'll allow it? No?So, but before she gave her statements,
you made sure that you were rightthere to monitor that interview and exactly
what was said. Correct objection.Were you in her house when Jim McKay
was interviewed by Michael Potter her house? Yes, you would go under her

(54:00):
house. Correct? I did youwent there before she gave the interview?
Yes, so you were there inher house during the entirety of her interview.
Correct. I believe so. Yes, And importantly, Jim McCay knew
you were in her house during thatinterview. Correct. I assumed she knew.
Yes, I mean you're in herhouse after all. Yes, I

(54:28):
want to get back to thirty fourfair view. If I could in the
early morning hours of January twenty ninth. Brian Higgins directly followed you into the
house after you walked in? Correct? Who could you rephrase that? Sure,
you walked in even though there weresome movie of the cars. You
were the first one to walk intothe house, and Brian Higgins followed you.

(54:49):
Yes, Nicole and Caitlyn then camein shortly after that. I think
Nicole and Caitlyn probably came in aroundthe same time as me, and then
Brian and then Brian Higgins. Sorry, did you make another drink? When
once you walked into the house?Did I make a drink? Did you
make a drink? Yes? Okay, but I say make a drink?

(55:09):
Did you get a drink? Yes? What would you What drink did you
get? I don't know. Probablyjust would have been whatever it was at
the house, a beer or something. Okay. Did Higgins have another drink?
I don't know. What did youdo? What did you and Brian
Higgins do once you were inside thehouse. We just kind of hung out
and talked. At any point didyou and Brian Higgins go down to the

(55:36):
basement. No, I don't remembergoing to the basement. You don't remember
going to the basement or you didn'tgo to the basement. No, I
didn't go to the basement. DidBrian Higgins go to the basement, Not
that I know of. And youdidn't go upstairs second floor? Did you?
I think I did go upstairs.Yes. Isn't it true that Brian
Higgins has never been upstairs in yourhouse prior to that night, including that

(56:00):
night specifically? I don't think that'strue. Now, you owned a dog
at the time, correct, Yes, it's a German shepherd named Chloe.
Yes, Next, describe that dogas being not great with strangers. Isn't
that true? I did describe itthat way. Yes, you testified that

(56:21):
quote. It started barking because itrealized that people were downstairs end quote.
Right. Yes, Chloe had apension for barking when she heard people.
Right. No, not necessarily shedid that night. Yeah, I think
she wanted to use the bathroom.Well that's not what you said in your
testimony. You said it started barkingbecause it realized there were people downstairs,

(56:44):
right, right, So your Germanshepherd probably a decent dog guard dog.
If she heard commotion and people,she would bark. Objection sustained. You
can ask it differently. Obviously,if Chloe hears commotion and people, she's
out to bark, that's the onlyquestion. No, So just that night,
out of nowhere, first time everChloe starts barking when people walk into

(57:07):
the house. No, it's notthe first time ever. But she didn't
bark often, Okay, But shedid bark that night, right, Yes.
And the reason that you gave underoath for why she started barking was
because there were people downstairs knowing aboutright. Yes, So in that instance
on January twenty ninth, in theearly morning hours, she was barking because
she heard people. Well, Ican't say why she was barking. Well,

(57:30):
you did say why she was barking. I let her out to choose
the bathroom. So I think that'sprobably why. Except your testimony was it
started barking because it realized there werepeople downstairs. Those are your words,
right, Okay? Do you standby those yes? Okay. You ultimately
did let Chloe out to go tothe bathroom, correct, Yes, And
then you allowed her to stay downstairsand you monitor her, monitored her with

(57:52):
the others who were in the house. Isn't that right? Yes? Matter
of fact, you testified in thatstate grand jury, the same April grand
over twenty twenty two. So Ilet it go out to the bathroom,
I let it back in. Ikind of monitored it a little because we
usually don't have people over the house, and the dog's not great with strangers,

(58:13):
period, So I was just makingsure that the dog was all right
with the people that were over endquote correct, yes, So in fact,
you did keep Chloe downstairs at leastfor a period of time with people
that were over right. Yes,for a few minutes, I mishir Albert.
After you learned that there were questionsbeing raised about John's injuries and dog

(58:36):
bites and scratches. In May oftwenty twenty two, you got rid of
that dog. No chection sustained.You can ask it differently. At some
point your family got rid of quote, Chloe was rehomed in May twenty whatever
words we want to rehomeed, rehoused, whatever, But you got rid of
her. She's no longer part ofthe Albert family. Right, checktion Right

(59:01):
when did you get rid of her? So Chloe was rehomed in I believe
May of twenty twenty two, oftwenty twenty two, just months after the
incident. We were discussing well afterit was involved. She was involved in
a dog fight with another dog outfront, right, But that's also after
the incident. Yes, yes,May that's a family pet that you had

(59:22):
had for six years or seven years, approximately six or seven years. I
show engraculation just now for having gottenrid of that dog. Is because it
bit another dog and ultimately sent twowomen to the hospital. Correct, I
believe two women went to the hospital. Yes, but you took no action
to get rid of Chloe until afteryou knew that serious questions were being raised

(59:45):
about John o'keith's injection. Correct sustein. At some point you did realize there
were questions being raised about John o'keefth'sinjuries on his arm. Correct injection.
I love that. Did you realizethat I heard some talk about it.
Yes, as of January of twentytwenty two, John O'Keefe had never been

(01:00:07):
in your house. Heavy, JohnO'Keefe was never in my house before or
after that date. Certainly, JohnO'Keeffe, you would agree with me,
he would count or in your househe would count as a stranger to Chloe.
Never met Hypothetically, Yes, Iwant to ask a couple of questions
about your house. Where are Iknow there's multiple bedrooms or all the bedrooms

(01:00:31):
on the top floor? Yes,okay, how many bedrooms? Five?
As we're looking at your house fromthe street, looking at your house,
are your bedroom windows your in yourcold's bedroom windows visible from the street?
Yes? Which windows would they beif you were facing the house? They

(01:00:53):
would be far left corner upper orlower upper upper left? Yes? How
many windows? Three? Or two? Service at two? With the courts
permission? Could I display Exhibit sixtysix? Okay? Do you see what

(01:01:15):
is displayed on that on that television? Yes? What does that appear to
be to you? The house atthirty four five year out? Understanding this
is a graphic representation of a photograph. Do you see the windows that you
just describe servicing your bedroom on thatphotograph of that graphic Yes? From a

(01:01:39):
the yes, okay, upper lefttwo windows correct? Yes, and those
overlook what part of the lawn thefront line? Okay, front lawn for
the left side of the house,not toward the driveway, correct, right,
I mean it's the whole front lawn, but yeah, right there for
the n side of the house,the windows are Yes, they asked about

(01:02:02):
the view right, so the viewsthe whole front. Yet I'm just trying
to make the record. The spokenrecord is clear as possible. Right there
on the left side of the house. Yes, they overlooked, directly overlooked,
They directly overlooked this portion of thelawn, the left side of the
law. Yes, furthest from thedriveway, Yes, we can take that

(01:02:22):
down. Where's your bed or wherewas your bed inside that room as relates
to the windows, I'm just tryingto think of how to describe it.
So the bed would be in themiddle of the bedroom. All right,
bad question on my part, becausewe do that. Let's do this right.

(01:02:45):
How many feats from the windows withthe closest part of your bed beat
to those windows? Maybe five feetsix feet? You indicated that Nicole hints
a bed about two o'clock in themorning. Yes, where was the dog?
How that dog was in my roomand she was sleeping on a mat

(01:03:06):
in your room? Yes, andthat mat is also about six feet from
the windows. Yes, six feetbeing from me them was little? They
do this far? Could be yes, maybe a little further, but yes,
may this far. Maybe the relativelyquiet street generally fairview. Yes,

(01:03:31):
not an enormous amount of through traffic. No, not a busy freeway or
a highway. Correct. No,not an especially noisy street the street.
No, especially at six am ona Saturday morning. Right right? Where
were you at six oh three onthe morning of January twenty nine, twenty
twenty two. I was sleeping inmy room six feet from that window.

(01:03:53):
Yes. Was Nicole in bed withyou? Yes? Had you taken any
medication the night before? No?Were you on any sedatives? No,
sleeping pills? No. Were youwearing a sleep atne egien? No,
we wearing an imass No, you'rewearing airplugs. No. Shortly thereafter,

(01:04:15):
became aware that six emergency vehicles,including a fire engine, police cruisers,
and unmarked police vehicles the civilian suvwe're all parked in front of your house
that morning. Correct. I'm notaware of what type of vehicles what park
there? Now, you've seen photographssince this incident of the vehicles out front

(01:04:35):
right. No, Are you awarethat those all of those vehicles had their
engines running. No? Are youaware that all the emergency vehicles at least
had their lights on, flashing lights? No? Were you aware that there
were first responders outside their vehicles taxingaround your lawn. Was I aware?

(01:04:59):
Were you aware of the time?No? Were you aware that there were
emergency responders, first responders. We'retalking to each other over the din of
the wind and the snow to communicatewith each other. No, you're aware
that there were three women on yourlawn at one point, just only after
the fact, and at least oneof those women was streaming to the top

(01:05:20):
of her lungs at six Again,your German shepherd was six feet from the
window. Correct, I don't knowthat for sure where a matt was.
Well, that doesn't mean that's whereshe always is. She also sleeps in
the closet area sometimes. Oh so, now Chloe's in the closet. I

(01:05:41):
didn't say she was in the closet. I said she sleeps in the closet
area sometimes, the closet area thatmorning, I don't remember. Likelihood is
she's sleeping on that matt five orsix feet in that window? Correct?
Check, I don't know. Andyour explanation, and by the way,
we've already talked about this earlier thatday. You are indicated she's barking because
she heard people and noises downstairs whenyou guys came into the house. Yes.

(01:06:09):
And your explanation is that you andNicole and Chloe the German shepherd all
slept through the entirety of that commotionon your front lawn. Yes. To
be clear, you are a trainedfirst respondent. Yes, get during that
entire event, after you were awakened, all that chaos on your front lawn,

(01:06:33):
you never came out of your houseto assist or investigate in any manner
whatsoever? Did you, mister Albert, once I was awakened? Correct?
No, We've talked about this alittle bit, but I want to ask
you a couple of other questions aboutthe layout of the house. Is sitting

(01:06:54):
on top of a basement? Correct? Yes? Or was at the time?
Describe how you get to the basefrom inside the house? If you
come in the front door. Andwhen I say I'm sorry to do this,
I don't need to interrupt you.There's two front doors that you sing
correct. Yes. For purposes ofmy question, mister Albert, I'm going

(01:07:15):
to talk about the one that you'reright in front of you, the obvious
one as the front door, andthe one to the right of it.
As you're looking at the house asthe Sibley Okay, because I don't know
how else to describe. If youcome in the front door, describe for
the jurors, where is the basementdoor as compared to that? So you
walk straight ahead, you pass thekitchen dining room area opening on your right

(01:07:40):
hand side, and there's a dooron the left. How many paces the
door opens? How many paces walkover and grab that door handle? I'm
mucho maybe ten ten full paces?Maybe? Yeah? So maybe eight maybe

(01:08:01):
eight? Draperd is about four longsteps. Correct, Well, I don't
know you asked paces, So youknow six feet six feet six to eight
feet maybe? What was the basementused for in January of twenty twenty two.

(01:08:24):
So the basement had a weight roomin one of the rooms and the
other room was nothing at the time. It had been damaged or water damage
to to an overflowed toilet. Sopart of the flooring had been ripped up,
Yes, and that opened up someslab concrete downstairs. Yes, there

(01:08:45):
was also some plywood downstairs. Yes, there were a couple of mats where
the actual weights were, so they'renot slamming down on the concrete. Yes,
but there was a good amount ofthat floor that was just exposed concrete.
Yes, the workout equipment would includethings like what barbells, dumbbells,
yes, heavyweights, yes, heavybars, yep, yep. Once you're

(01:09:11):
down in the basement, by theway, there's two flights that you go
down at angles to use the basement. A series of steps, a landing,
a series of steps, and youstand on the basement. Yes,
not a not a long staircase,very small, but right, I mean
it's narrow and tight. But inother words, you don't just walk straight
down a staircase. You go downto a flood, to a landing,

(01:09:33):
turn left, turn left again,and now you're on the basis. If
you wanted to move something large orheavy out of that basement without having to
go through the house, do thatobjection? Oh it? Could you rephrase

(01:09:54):
the question say it again. Ifyou wanted to move something large or heavy
out of that basement without having togo through the main house, could you
do that? Yes, it woulddepend what it was, obviously, how
big it was, or how wouldyou do that. There's a bulkhead door
you can use. Where does thatbullhead door come out of? It comes

(01:10:15):
out to the backyard right at thekitchen area. You can. You can
see it from the kitchen and rightto the left of that is the side
fence. Yes. And directly throughthat side fence is the front yard.
Yes, the same side of thefront yard as John o'keith's body is found.

(01:10:39):
Yes, Ben, I would askat this point to mark a video.
I mean how just moved on?Yes, kah mm Jackson, would

(01:11:13):
you like to take the Morning Recess? That'd be good, thank you?
Yeah, hm, that makes sense. Do you anticipate having it having an

(01:11:51):
adult on a flash drive to putin you are muted? Ye, the

(01:12:11):
Morning Recess? H m h day. When did you see that? Sorry?

(01:12:45):
Do we all squared away? Okay, mister Albert, did you speak
with anybody anything like just my attorneyaverage? Yes, mister Albert, if

(01:13:06):
you could please tell me if yourecognize what's depicted in that photograph, Yes,
it's the bulkhead stairway. Is thatthe stairway that you earlier described for
the juror or sort of sing thebasements going into the backyard. Yes,
yes, I would have to haveto sparked this next order. I need

(01:13:38):
man, Yes, we to publishrom Okay, do you see the what's
depicted on the television screen. Yes, is that the same as what if
you're holding right here? That thatexident it does? Yes, I'm going
to direct your attention if I could, to the lower left portion of this

(01:13:58):
photograph. Yeah, right there?You see that? That is I can't,
but he's looking one more time rightthere. Maybe it's easier if you
look on your photograph. Are youreferring to the doornop? I got I
got it here? Yes, I'msorry. I was sort of hidden on
that photograph, so I called this. Is that the door that swings open

(01:14:27):
or closed to close off the basement? Yes, then if you open that
door, it's in the open positionnow correct, Yes, So the photographer
is standing in the basement looking towardthe doorway, correct, Yes, then
you climb seven right stairs. Yes, And that bulkhead door, which is

(01:14:47):
where all the light is inminating.How does that open? So the bulkhead
door opens straight up? Okay,at least in that photograph, it was
hinged toward the house and it wouldopen up like I don't know, like
a sandwich or something. It openedstraight up to the bay windows that are
in the kitchen. Okay, Okay, that's all I need for that,

(01:15:11):
John, I have a flash drivewith a video on it. I'd asked
mister Martha's next in order courts permission? Assuming it's the same one objection.
It's the same one, mister Albert, I want to ask you to take

(01:15:32):
a look in just a second ata video and then describe if you recognize
what's in that video, probably playedmaybe five or ten seconds of it,
and then pause. It's okay forpermission? Yes, pause. Do you
recognize what's depicted in that video atleast up to that court? No?

(01:15:55):
Does that look like your basement door? Although the bulkhead doors have been replaced
different, the whole thing looks differentto me. Boss. Now do you
recognize what d Yes? What isthat? So that's my back was my
back yard? Okay? And whatarea is over to the left here?

(01:16:19):
That's a gate? And what doesthat gate open up to to the front
yard? So the area that we'relooking at right now where the photographer staying
is the backyard. Yes, now, having seen that, notwithstanding the way
that the bulkhead doors opened, Now, do you recognize what was depicted at

(01:16:40):
the beginning of the video, whichwas that stereos Yes, the downstairs door,
the door itself, the wooden dooritself also looks different. Okay,
so but it is, but itis the stairway, yes, going into
the basement, yes, or comingout of the basement. Yes. So
in other words, another way toput that is that represented the ingress and
egress through the bulkhead to the basement. Yes, okay, that's what I

(01:17:05):
haven't played it. Did you recognizewhat was depicted in the video? REPLs
that, thank you, thank yourEarnor did you recognize what was depicted in
the video as it continued to play, Yes, describe that for the Juris

(01:17:26):
place, it looked like the videowas from walking from the backyard towards the
front yard. So the video startedat a walking a door, turned toward
the fence, went through the fence, and right up toward the flagpole.
Correct. Yes? Is that anaccurate representation of the layout of the house

(01:17:46):
when you lived there on January twentytwo? Yes, with the exception of
the bulkhead door having been replaced andmaybe the basement floor. Yes. By
the way, the thirty forfair ofyour house had been in your family at
that time in twenty twenty two ortwo generations, and my parents built the

(01:18:10):
house in the late seventy seventy nine. Maybe, so if your parents are
one generation, you and your familyare another generation, two generations right,
nearly maybe actually a little more thanfifty years, half a century. That
what it was, the Albert Home. Yes, the fact is you listed

(01:18:31):
that house for sale for the firsttime ever in November of twenty twenty two.
Correct, that's the time we listedto it. Yes, just months
after John O'Keefe was found on yourlaw objection esteem mister Albert. Is that
timing, according to you, acoincidence? Is what is that timing a

(01:18:58):
coincidence? Well, that's not thetime. I mean, actually, we
contacted the railtor in twenty twenty one, finally listed it in twenty twenty two,
got it, So that would bethat would be pre incident. So
the listing coming nine months after Jonno' keatons founded in your lawn, dying
lawn, that's just coincidence. Youhad this in place long before. Actually,

(01:19:20):
so I would sustain the question.You can ask it differently, sure,
All I'm asking is the timing Novembertwenty twenty two, listing that house
for sale for the first time inNovember, That in your mind, is
just a coincidence. It's not acoincidence because we started trying to look into
selling the house in twenty twenty one, which was the few months prior to

(01:19:44):
the incident. On January twenty eight, twenty twenty two, you were still
an active Boston Police officer. Correct. Yes, what was your job title
in January twenty twenty two? Sogyndetective. That means you not only respond
to incidents, you actually conduct investigationas a detective. Correct, Yes,
primarily fugitive investigations. You have additionaltraining in order to hold the title and

(01:20:08):
hold a position as a detective,is that right? Yes, not just
a regular patrol officer. You haveto have special training to get to the
rank of detective. Is that right? Yes, as a sergeant detective.
That's above a regular detective. Indeed, because you're a supervising detective, is
that right? Yes, you haveexperience and experience in training in order to

(01:20:30):
hold that position as a supervisor inthe detective spot as well. Yes,
there's civil service tests for the rank. But yes, and you've investigated crimes.
I mean, I'm guessing just aton of different types of crimes,
including assaults, manslaughters, homicides,kidnappings, things of that nature. No,
you've never investigated anything like that.So what's the parameters of your investigative

(01:20:56):
skills? As you held that titleof sergeant detective. So my parameters were
investigating fugitive investigations. That was myspecialty. I guess you could say.
So you've responded to obviously to countlessincidents and scenes as both a patrol officer.
Yes, yes, you've supervised theinvestigation of at least the futureive type

(01:21:18):
of crimes. Correct. Yes,fugitives trying to thwart investigators to try to
find them. Right, Yes,that's their whole It's the cat and mouse
thing, right right, you beingthe cat. Correct sometimes. Yes,
you're also trained in techniques. Obviously, any detective would be trained in techniques

(01:21:41):
that culprits might use, or suspectsmight use to sort of cover up investigations,
I'm sorry, to cover up crimesto thwart investigations. Correct, Do
you have that training? No,so you in all of your training for
thirty years as a boy and asa sergeant detective, you don't have any
training. And what techniques criminals mightuse to try to cover up their their

(01:22:04):
conduct No, I've never gone toa training for criminals to cover up conduct.
No, never been trained in thefact that, I don't know somebody
might want to clean up blood.No objection could be interesting. What about
sanitizing a location injection? Oh no. What about getting rid of electronic data?

(01:22:27):
You've got to have training in that. No. In other words,
the fugitives that you chase down andtry to find you don't try to utilize
electronic data, so you go afterthem. Sometimes we do, but I
don't have any training in ed perse is like GPS data and phone calls,

(01:22:50):
messages, communications, things that nature. Yes, yes, these are
all things that at least those thingsare things that if you didn't have formal
training, you got on the jobtraining and just have common sense about how
to go after these type of thistype of evidence. Correct. Yes,

(01:23:12):
sir, you had an iPhone witha number ending in zero eight eight eight
back in January twenty twenty two,did you not? Yes? How many
years did you have that iPhone asof January twenty eighth, twenty twenty two,
Of several years, I'm not surehow many, but multiple years.
And mister Albert, you were notifiedby the Commonwealth that on September twenty third,

(01:23:36):
twenty twenty two. In the fallof twenty twenty two, I judge
specifically ordered that you were to preservethat phonejection. You're on, correct,
I'll see consulate sidebar for minutes.H thank you. Making s all right,

(01:24:29):
and I am going to see ifif his council here, he is
a right to be present up amoment. I'm sure m hm okay,

(01:25:01):
yah h h h h h.I'll go after bench. All right,

(01:25:28):
okay, all right, so missusGyson, you can have a do you
delbert? Uh? You're currently representedby mister Kenny. Yes, behind me,
yes right, yes, okay,without telling me anything you ever communicated

(01:25:51):
with him? When did you hirefrom this war? I'm not exactly sure
of the date. Give me atime frame narrowed down m twenty twenty two.
I'm just not sure the exact dateor even the month for the end
of twenty twenty two. I'm notsure I believe the prior to some of

(01:26:15):
the other testimony that I gave soprior to hired April of twenty twenty two
for the state r injury. Noprior to the test the other testimony.
Okay, that was in June oftwenty twenty three. That's my question.
Did you hire mister Hinning in twentytwenty three in anticipation of giving testimony in

(01:26:39):
June of twenty twenty I'm not surethe exact of the exact date. I
believe it was maybe the end oftwenty two, I'm not sure. Well,
did you get a subpoena for theother hearing? I did? Okay,
did you hire mister Hinning after yougot that subpoena? Can't say,

(01:27:00):
I believe so right around that time. Yes, I'm just trying to remember
the time and I can't remember it. So you did not hire? Well
you all right? I think thatanswer the question not representative place. I'm
going to see Tibira about the extentof the inquiry. Thank you, may

(01:27:26):
I Yes, thank you, youhad received and I want to draw your
attention to twenty twenty three. NowI'm sorry, now I'm doing it the
fall of twenty twenty two. Septemberof twenty twenty two. Yes, did
you receive a notice on Commonwealth letterheadindicating that you were not to destroy or

(01:27:50):
in any way manipulate any data onyour cell phone? Destroy the phone itself?
Or to manipulate or destroy any dataon that cell phone. I do
not remember getting that letter. NowI'm going to read this for the record
there or if i'm a course permission. Yes, did you receive a letter
that said in essence does not evenan essence? It should be quoted as

(01:28:14):
the following quote. You, misterAller, are hereby notified that the defense
in the case of Commonwealth for Secureand Read Norfalk Superior Cork Criminal Case Number
two two GOSH one one seven hasfiled the motion and pursue to mask our
criment p. Seventeen for the productionof any cell phones that you used between

(01:28:36):
January twenty eight, twenty twenty twoand February twenty eight, twenty twenty two,
and or any data associated with thosecell phones period. The hearing on
this Read's motion will be held onOctober three, twenty twenty two, at
two pm and Corporal one of theNorfalk Superior Cork You may be heard on

(01:28:57):
the motion at that time. Youare hereby placed unnotice that these cell phones
are the subject of pending litigation andyou must not alter, delete, destroyed,
or in any way manipulate any ofthese electronic data. Associated with the
cell phones at issue period. Didyou receive a notice from the Commonwealth with

(01:29:19):
that language? I don't remember receivingthat document. Now when you told in
any other capacity that you were notto get rid of or delete your cell
phone, in other words, preserveyour phone. Subsequent to me upgrading my
phone, I spoke with the DA'soffice. So after that they told me

(01:29:41):
vire a phone call that that wasthe case. So your testimony is you
never received the notice that I justread, but you did talk to the
DA and he told you to preserve. You were unnoticed that you were to
preserve your phone after I want tosay that, mister Albert. My question
is did you have the conversation withmister yes? Okay, When was that

(01:30:04):
conversation, sir? So, Idon't have the exact date of the conversation.
I'm not sure who did you talkto on the film exactly? Was
mister Lolly alone or was it aconference call? It was a conference call?
Who else was on that conference?I believe Steve Nelson and other other
witnesses in the case were on theor on the conference call. I believe

(01:30:29):
it was Brian Higgins. I believeChen McCabe, Matt McCabe, and maybe
somebody else, but I can't Ican't recall who initiated that conference. I
believe it was somebody in the DA'soffice, So either mister Lally or Steve
Nelson, somebody somebody like that.Did everybody just call into a social number

(01:30:53):
of conference conference line? Yes?And what exactly did mister Lally I say
to you during the course of thatconversation about preserving your phone? During the
conversation, mister Lalley said that therewas that the defense had filed emotion to
ask for the phones to be preservedand anything else. That's what I remember.

(01:31:18):
That's what I remember him saying.Did you volunteer that? Oh my
goodness, I just upgraded my phonelast week and I didn't have that phone
anymore. No, you didn't saythat to mister Lilly. No, you
just took the information that he gaveyou and on the phone and what about
your business? Yes, without notifyinghim that the very phone that he had

(01:31:39):
just ordered you to preserve had justbeen destroyed deserved. No, the phone
wasn't destroyed. I upgraded the phone. The data was destroyed, serve correct.
I did not destroy any data onany phone, miser, I upgraded
my phone up a phone, youknow that the phone is set back to

(01:31:59):
fact, you reset before your newphone is handed to you. Correct?
Was every time? I don't knowthat. So if you have a personal
texts with your doctor, personal communicationswith mister Hanning, your lawyer, you're
just going to hand that to apimply face, get it best Buy and
say here's my phone. You knowthat data is destroyed when you when you
upgrade your phone, right, Ithink some things are come over across contacts,

(01:32:25):
things like that, So I don'tknow that for sure. You can
back up your data, sir,but the phone data is destroyed for all
purposes. It's factory reset. Correct, I don't know that. Who you
have phone that's an iPhone years?How many times have you upgraated your I
phone? Multiple times? Every singletime you upgraded? You know that the

(01:32:47):
phone sub of the phone prior thedata is destroyed on it. Correct?
Usually my contacts come over, myphotos come over, So that's a backup.
No, I don't have I don'tthink I have that on backup.
But okay, irrespective, you didn'ttell mister Lally that you had gotten rid
of that phone. I was notasked that, and I didn't tell him

(01:33:09):
that. I see you felt likeif you weren't asked that you didn't need
to volunteer it, even though theconference call was specifically about preserving your phone,
pursue it to a judge's order.Correct? What was the question you
didn't offer to mister Lollly that youhad gotten rid of the very phone that
he was telling you had to bepreserved due to a judge's order. I

(01:33:31):
did not, and you didn't seekany advice from I'm not asking you for
the communication. You did not seeany advice from counsel at that time for
those versts. I don't believe Idid. No. Sure at some point

(01:34:09):
you indicated mister Albert at another proceedingunder oath in relation to a conversation that
you had with Brian Higgins about yourphone quote. I don't recall saying I
was going to get rid of mypersonal phone to Brian Higgins. I may
have said that, you know,there's personal stuff on my phone, but

(01:34:30):
I don't recall saying that to him. But I don't know. We had
multiple conversations about things. You remembersaying that at at another hero Yes,
you literally admitted at that hearing there'spersonal private data on that phone. Hence
you got rid of it, right. No, you certainly wouldn't allow some

(01:34:55):
kid at the AT and T storeto have your personal private data. You're
a cop. No, I assumeI assume he doesn't have it. Why
would you assume because he took thephone and has it? And what do
you think happens to the data onthe phone, sir? Let's this chuge
common sense? What do you honestlythink happens to the data on the phone
when you turn it in uprade?Your phone? I'm sure that the data

(01:35:20):
is not there anymore destroyed, sir? Correct, I don't know that for
a fact. I know that somethings are transferred back to the new phone.
You said, you know the datais not there some data I guess,
yes, Oh that's all I have. All rightly, any questions?

(01:35:41):
No, yeah, all right,I'm going to take a short recess.
I'm want to let this witness ifhe chooses to have a few minutes.

(01:36:04):
Thank you? Quote that? Allright? What are you saying? Please's
s thank you? All right,mister Jackson, go right ahead. Thank

(01:36:39):
you. Mister Albert, you werenotified by the Commonwealth that on September twenty
third, twenty twenty two, ajudge specifically ordered you to preserve that phone
and all its data. The phoneIndian zero eight eight eight. Is that
right? At what time? Areyou asking me that I was notified that

(01:37:00):
day or the next on the twentythird, on the twenty third of the
twenty fourth to seent No, isn'tit true that you've provided a letter by
the Commonwealth that stated the following,your honor, If I'm may read this,
mister, yes, there's no objection, thank you quote. You are
hereby notified that the defense in thecase of Commonwealth versus Karen Reid, Norfolk

(01:37:24):
Superior Criminal Case Sorry, Norfolk SuperiorCourt Criminal Case number two two Dash one
one seven, has filed a motionpursuer to mask our crim p. Seventeen
for the production of any cell phonesthat you used between January twenty eight,
twenty twenty two, and February twentyeight, twenty twenty two, and or

(01:37:47):
any data associated with those cell phones. The hearing on this read's motion will
be held on October third, twentytwenty two, at two pm in Court
Room one of a Norfolk Superior Courtyou may be heard on the motion at
that time. You are hereby placedon notice that these cell phones are the

(01:38:09):
subject of pending litigation and you mustnot alter, delete, destroy, or
in any way manipulate any of theelectronic data associated with the cell phone at
ish you receive in quote, youreceived that notice on either the twenty third
or the twenty fourth, is right? I did not donor I would oppose

(01:38:30):
a stipulation. I spoke with Counciloff the record. If I may,
you both have a stipulation that Ihaven't seen you just determined. I'm happy
to approach it. How don't weapproach quickly? Man? I would offer

(01:38:57):
the following stipulation that on either orSeptember twenty fourth, the Commonwealth set a
letter on Commonwealth letterhead to mister Albert'sattention, stating exactly what was just read
into the record pursue it to thecourt order of dating September twenty third,
twenty two. Okay, all right, next question, thank your honor.

(01:39:24):
Isn't it true that you were infact ordered to preserve your cell phone by
the Commonwealth at some point I wasmade aware of that. Yes, all
right, let's just get to thebroadtass where's your phone? My phone was
upgraded and trade it in for anew phone. Your phone was upgraded and

(01:39:44):
traded in for the for a newphone. Yes. Another way to say
that is you traded your phone inand got rid of it. Correct.
I traded my phone and upgraded it. Yes, When did you get rid
of your phone? Ending zero eighteight eight? Upgraded my phone in September,
third week of September. Maybe aroundtwenty second, the twenty second of

(01:40:08):
September, I believe, so,I can't be sure the exact date.
So according to you, you gotrid of the phone that was the subject
of a court order preservation the daybefore it was ordered preserved. Right,
what's the what? Rephrase the question? Please? This order was just stipulated.

(01:40:32):
This order is dated September twenty third, twenty twenty two. It was
just stipulated that on the twenty thirdor twenty fourth you were then sent a
notice to preserve the phone. Andyour testimony is on the twenty second,
the day before this all happened,you upgraded your phone and got rid of

(01:40:53):
it in total. Correct. Iupgraded my phone on on and around the
twenty second. Yes, and youknew that all of the data on that
phone would be factory reset and destroyed. Objection. Do you know that,
sir? I do not know that. How many times have you upgraded your
phone in your iPhone? I'm notsure I four or five times. Maybe

(01:41:14):
you're aware that when you turn tophone in and you upgrade it the phone
that you turn in, that datais factory reset, meaning it's gone,
it's destroyed off of that device.Correct. Well, I think some data
transfers and some doesn't. I'm nottalking about a backup I'm talking about the
physical, physical phone. That physicalphone becomes a brick when you turn it

(01:41:35):
in. Correct, correct, thatit becomes a brick. I don't know,
effectively a brick. There is nodata left on the phone. I'm
not talking about backup data onto aclouds about that phone. So the old
phone, yes, yeah, it'sjust everything on it's destroyed. Correct,
right, Although some some of thedata transfers to your new phone, and

(01:41:57):
you're aware that the very data thatyou were ordered to preserve would have been
destroyed according to you the day before. Correct. Rephrase the question. Will
ask me a question if you wereif you're, are you claiming that you
got rid of your phone on thetwenty second, upgraded my phone around that.
I'm not sure if that's the exactdate, but yes, so it

(01:42:19):
could have been after the twenty second. I don't think it was after the
twenty second. Been the twenty fourth, No? Could it have been the
twenty fifth. No, So you'reabsolutely sure that you could not have upgraded
your phone got rid of it anytimeafter the twenty third when this judge ordered
that it'd be preserved. No,because you know that if you got rid

(01:42:41):
of that phone after you had beennotified that you were ordered by a court
to preserve it, you'd be committinga fellow Jack Sistein. So you now
claim that you got rid of thephone on September twenty second, twenty twenty
two, hours before or you wereordered to preserve that's your testimony, correct?

(01:43:03):
Yes? Is that just a coincidence? September fourth was my birthday.
The phone was broken and failing.I had planned on getting a new phone,
and that just happened to be theday that I got it. Happy
birthday? Was that a coincidence?O jection sisteen. You were asked at

(01:43:31):
another hearing in June of twenty twentythree that exact question correct, Whether it
was a coincidence. Do you rememberthat? I don't you recall being asked?
Quote, so it's just a coincidencethat within minutes, hours, or
injection you're on. Let's the otherquestion first, within minutes, hours or

(01:43:54):
days of you trading in your phone, that phone you had in January of
twenty twenty two that you were orderedto preserve it. Answer, Yes,
question that's a coincidence. Answer,yes, objection, we'll to strike.
I'll let that ste That was yourtestimony, wasn't it. Yes, and

(01:44:15):
that's what you're saying today to thesejurors. Just a coincidence. Yes,
Did you and Brian Higgins agree witheach other that you're both going to get
rid of your phones? Objection thatno, you told you testified at the

(01:44:38):
other hearing in June twenty twenty two. Quote. I don't recall saying that
I was going to get rid ofmy personal phone to Brian Higgins. I
may have said that, you know, there's personal stuff on my personal phone,
but I don't recall saying that tohim. But I don't know.
We have multiple conversations about things inquote, you remember testifying with that,

(01:44:59):
Yes, So you're not ruling outthe fact that you may have told Brian
Higgins that you intended to get ridof your phone. Correct, No,
you're not ruling out the fact thatBrian Higgins may have told you that he
intended to get get rid of hisphone. No, I don't remember him
saying that to me. Your testimonywas, quote, I know there were

(01:45:19):
conversations about the phones. I justcan't say if he was going to get
rid of his phone or not.End quote. You testified to that,
didn't you. Yeah, I haveno idea what he was going to do.
I'm asking are those your words?Did you testify to that under oath?
Yes, although I don't know thecontext of the time that they were
asking that question June of twenty twenty, No, not the date of the

(01:45:42):
herring, but when they were askingif in when that conversation took place.
It's really not what it was.I think. So, Yes, when
you talked to Brian Higgins about gettingready oft phones, what do you think
you had that conversation. I don'tthink I talked to Brian Higgins about getting
rid of my phones. Well,you just you can't rule out the fact
that you had conversations with Brian Higginsabout your phones and possibly getting rid of

(01:46:05):
your phone, right, No,I don't think that's what I said.
You two discussed the fact that youboth wanted to get rid of your phones.
I don't remember having that conversation withBrian Haiggins at all. Your testimony
was quote, I know there wereconversations about the phones, sir, correct,

(01:46:27):
correct that that's what you're reading.So if you're having conversations with Brian
Higgins about the phones, what theheck were you talking about. I don't
know the timing of when they askedwhen those conversations were, Milbert, So
I'm leaving it open to you.I don't care when it was. I'm
asking you, have you ever hada conversation with Brian Higgins about your phones?

(01:46:49):
Respectively? We may have, Ijust don't I can't remember that conversation
specifically. And why in June oftwenty twenty three did you testify. I
know there were conversations about the phoneswith Brian Higgins end quote. I'm not
sure the context of that, sonow you just can't remember. No,

(01:47:11):
I don't think I could remember duringthat testimony either. I think if you
read the whole thing, I thinkI said, I'm not sure. I
don't remember your quote. Was.I know there were conversations about the phones.
I just can't say if he saidhe was going to get rid of
his phone or not? Right?Does that help the pressure recollection? Yes?

(01:47:32):
So, now as you sit hereand you answer my question, did
you and Brian Higgins have a conversationabout your phones? I don't remember having
that conversation with Brian Higgins. Allright, let's shift gears before I share

(01:47:53):
yours. You're aware that Brian Higginshas also gotten of his phone. Correct,
I am not aware of that untilafter the time you're talking about.
So, without qualifying your answer,answer my question. As you sit here,
you're aware that Brian Higgins has alsogot me into his phone. I

(01:48:16):
know at some point Brian Higgs Albertdid he jaction on? Can you answer
that yes or no? Sir?Yes, Now I'd like to shift your
seat. Talking a little bit aboutMichael Proctor. Did Michael Proctor come into
your home at thirty four fair Viewon January twenty nineteen. Yes, Michael

(01:48:38):
Proctor. Let me rephrase the question. I want to make sure I'm not
telling it off your life. Good, right, Michael Proctor in the Maschusetts
State Police. Did he come intoyour home on January twenty nine? He
conducted an interview with my wife,and I don't remember if it was at
twenty ninth of the thirtieth. Soyou're asking, wasn't that interview on February

(01:49:00):
third? I feel like it wasearlier than that, but it could have
been February third. Okay, presumefor promos of my question that it was
February third that Michael Propter interviewed yourlife. Then you would not have come
into your home on the twenty ninththirtieth. First, first and second,

(01:49:20):
Right, And you know from yourtraining obviously as a first respond to,
the first forty eight hours of aninvestigation are absolutely critical, correct jection?
Do you know that, sir?In that context? I don't. Next
question, I mean, where dothe TV sh'll call it first forty eight?

(01:49:43):
Jaction are? Do you think thefirst forty eight hours of a criminal
investigation are critical? Injection? Youdo know that the longer you wait to
properly investigate anything, the better chancethat evidence can be manipulated or destroyed.
Right, you would agree with that? Yes? Did an invest or,
any forensics team ever come into yourhouse ever to photograph your entire home.

(01:50:05):
No, I wish I had.Did an investigator? Yeah, me too,
checktion. Did an investigator or aforensics team ever come into your house
to search for physical evidence? No? Did an investigator or a forensics team
ever come into your house to searchfor trace evidence? No? Did an

(01:50:26):
investigator or forensics team ever come intoyour house to take carpet samples, flooring
samples from the basement, for instance, No, and to this day you're
aware that that's never happened. Yes, sir, you were in the Marines
before you were a police officer.Correct, Yes, your combat veteran.
Yes. How long were you inthe Marine Corps? Four years? During

(01:50:50):
the course of your marine and militarytraining, did you have any training in
hand to hand combat? Checktion?Yes, in addition to your marine training
on the subject, did you alsoreceive additional training from the police department,
through the academy or otherwise on basichand to hand combat? No, so

(01:51:11):
that's not part of the academy.I'm not hand to hand combat. No.
Fighting techniques, you should batons,things that that. Defensive tactics.
Defensive tactics, Okay, that's fighting, right, Well, it's not hand
to hand combat. No, okay, fair enough. I maybe using the
wrong word. It's physical. It'straining on how to either defend yourself or
controlling other person's disease. Yes,I mean they're not going to send you

(01:51:33):
out there on the streets completely illequipped, and you can know that you
know how to defend yourself and howto put somebody in custody. They don't
want to be in customer, right, Yes, and that might include fighting,
it could, yes, And beyondyour marine training and your police training,
you're independently trained and techniques of fighting. Have I boxed before? Yes?

(01:51:59):
Okay, and you've trained in boxing. It's not like you just walk
up and smack a heavy bag,right, You'd have to rephrase it.
What you've trained. You're training box, you're training miner I've boxed in the
past, and I've trained to box. Yes, I mean i'd get a
heavy bag, right, But I'mnot a train You're all right, So

(01:52:21):
I'm going there's an objection you werestanding, mister Lelly. Yeah, sure
is disregard that, mister Jackson.No comments, just questions please. In
fact, your boxing skills were featuredin a TV show that you were featured
it as well as well objection.I'll allow that. No, you were,

(01:52:43):
in fact, no that they werefeatured in a show. No,
you've never shown on TV in aring sparring with somebody. I may have
been shown training, but I don'tthink I was having a boxing match.
No, Okay, that's I wasn'tsuggesting that you were having like a paper.
I was asking the TV shows thathave showed you in a ring.
Well, that's not what you askedme. But if you're asking me that

(01:53:05):
now, yes, I'm asking youthat. Now. I apologize my questions
just somewhat somewhat in artful. Yes, you understand the question now, Yes,
and you have been shown I usethe word feature. You've been shown
on television in a boxing ring.Yes, far, I didn't. Haven't
seen the video in a while.On my I'm my scheff, I aspire.

(01:53:26):
If we can your honor with courtspermission, Can we take a look
at Exhibit fifty three. Okay,there's a cliff starting it. It's time
of day, eleven forty seven andfifteen seconds to eleven forty eight and thirty
five seconds, maybe a half.Yes, that you see the two in

(01:54:00):
the foreground. Yes, men,looks like myself and Brian Higgins look like
yourself and Brian Higgins? For isthat yourself? And bang? Yes it
is, but you go ahead andplay that. I've got one more clip
to pay to play, but Ihave a couple of questions. Let's take

(01:54:24):
it down and you can put theother one up after the questions. Did
you see what was displayed on thatvideo? Yes? Had you seen that
before a part of it? Yes? Is that what you and mister Lewy
went over in your preparation for yourtestimony? I don't think that we went
over it, but he showed mea quick clip of it. When you
say he showed you a quick look, do you ask the questions about it?

(01:54:44):
I don't think so. No.Did you give him any answers about
it? No? Any explanations?No, just show you the clip and
yeah, I just said, yeah, it looks like we were falling around.
Okay, So you did make anexplanation given him out? Yeah?
Right, I said, I thinkwe were just falling around, okay,
the same thing you told us toswing right right? Yeah, just having

(01:55:04):
fun with my friends and hanging outand falling around. What were you doing
having fun with my friends? Hangingout, just being silly. Okay,
describe physically what you were doing inthe video. I was playing around,
sort of getting a boxing stance,otherwise fighting stance, right, yeah,

(01:55:30):
for a second, yes, Andwhat did Friday you got into the fighting
stance? It looked like he waskind of doing the same thing. Well,
yeah, what were you talking aboutuntil you're talking? Yeah, I
don't know what we were talking about. We were just being silly, falling
around having fun. You're giving himadvice on the proper way to get into

(01:55:51):
a fighting stance or a boxing boxof stance. No, you're giving him
some advice or some some indicators abouthow the best position himself if someone is
taking an aggressive stance and needs toNo, no, is he telling you
what he thought was a good techniquefor fighting a box I don't think it

(01:56:11):
was that serious. We were justplaying fooling around. But both of you
were in fighting stances, basing notagainst each other. Correct, Yeah,
for a second or two, Andmister Higgins saw him bob his head and
started walking up for you like aboxer line. Correct. Yeah, yes,
And then you got down, pulledyour pant legs out that you squatted

(01:56:32):
down to indicate getting low, havinglow center and gravity. Correct, that
would note that that's indicating being silly. That's not the point when you're being
silly. You then faked a rightpunch toward him. Correct. I didn't
notice that, but I'm not sure. We took a look at the next

(01:56:54):
part of this cliff, which isat time of day eleven, fifty five
and one seconds. I'm sorry,I live in fifty four and fifty two
seconds. It highlight it. Okay, there's several individuals crowding around a table.
Can you describe who where you areand where mister Higgins is. Brian

(01:57:17):
Higgins is the guy in the rightwith a hooded sweatshirt and the emblem on
the back. I have a pointthat do you want me to use it?
That'd be great, that'd be great. So that's Brian Higgins and that's
me. And play this. Yousee what you did? Yes? What

(01:57:42):
did you do when you slapped hisright on? What did I do?
What did you do? What areyou doing? It looks like I'm just
being silly fooling around. Okay,I'm going to ask you for a little
bit more physical description. What areyou doing? Why are you grabbing him?
From borrow. I don't really know. Is that wrestling mold? No,
I don't think No, I don'tthink so. That's some sort of

(01:58:02):
control hold that you've used in thepast. Bear hugging somebody, Now,
that's just a silly falling around withmy buddy. Right. Do you see
what mister Higgins just did? Idid? Yeah, when you let him
go? What did he did?I don't know. He did some kind

(01:58:23):
of I don't know. He pretendedto need me or something you need to
be out of him. Yeah,I don't know if he made contact or
not. But mister Albert, I'mnot justify my questions if you two are
actually right, I'm asking what he'sdoing. Does it seem to yeah,
I don't know that he's playing likeor practicing like techniques in fighting. I

(01:58:46):
don't know what his intent was.It looks like he's just falling around,
just like I was. But ifa girld man walks up to you,
perhaps you from behind, and putsa knee up to your solar plexes,
that's probably not the same as ahigh five. Right, what's the what
is your question? In other words, it looks like he's practicing some sort

(01:59:08):
of fighting team practicing. That's nothow I see that. How would you
describe it? Just describe it ashim fooling around. We're in the bot
together, we're good friends, andwe're just being silly and fooling. That's
all. There's a number of peoplein that bar. You agree with that?
Yes, you see anybody else inthat video at any time getting physical
with one another? Injection? Howmuch of this video have you actually watched?

(01:59:32):
Not much? Okay, so letme ask you a different question from
your memory of that night. Whoare the only two people in the bar
that seem to be getting fiscal objection? Sure? The only person I remember
being physical with was falling around Bryant. Okay, but just a little bit
longer, a fish. Did yousee the rest of that video? Yes,

(02:00:01):
no question that you two are beingfriendly with one another. Correct,
Yes, I would agree with that, Yes, but it's all. There's
also no question that of all thepeople in that bar, the only two
people appear to be imitating fighting foryou, mister Kyden is correct in that

(02:00:23):
video? Yes? Is there anothervideo? Well? No, I just
don't know what everybody else was doingin the bar. Do you remember anybody
else you know Julie Albert or Idon't remember Cole getting into a scrap with
someone. No, too correct,Yes, mister Albert, this is minutes

(02:00:44):
before everybody headed to your house atthirty four fair View. Correct. Yes,
including John o'keeth. Yes. Goingback to the morning of January twenty
ninth, everyone had left your location. This is after you had already arrived,

(02:01:04):
had a couple of years, peoplestarted leaving. Everybody was gone from
your location at about one am,maybe a little bit after that. Seems
right, Caitlin being the last personto leave, I believe. So.
Yes, What did you do toget ready for bed to settle in?

(02:01:28):
I went upstairs and just light inbed. The TV was on and I
was just kind of watching TV.You have a nightstand, I do?
Is it on your side of thebed or Nichole's or you have one on
each? We may have had oneon each in that house. Put your
phone on your nightstand? No,put your phone. The phone was in

(02:01:49):
bed with me. So your testimonyis that you get in bed after being
on a road trip all day long, be at restaurant and it bars,
then get together at your house andwhen you go to bed, you don't
charge your phone. No, Ihad the phone in the bed with me.

(02:02:13):
Why. We have five kids,and you know if somebody was trying
to call it, if I neededto reach them. It's just kind of
a habit I do. I putmy reading glasses in my phone in bed
with me, and you don't chargeit. Sometimes I charge it, but
not as a routine. No.So you're worried about having your kids out,

(02:02:39):
they might need to get a holdof dad, so you make sure
this phone is nice and close,but it can just run out of atters.
Well, if it's dying, thenI'll put it in the charger,
but if not, I just leaveit on the bed. That night,
the phone was on the bed.No, I remember the phone being on

(02:02:59):
the bed. You have a specificrecollection two and a half years ago about
the states of the battery charge onyour phone. Such did you know it
was in your bed? No,I just noticed as a routine, I
keep my phone in the bed withme. That's not what you just said.
You just said it depends on whethernot the battery needs to be charged
charged. My answer is that sometimesI of course charge my battery, but

(02:03:24):
I sleep with the phone in mybed every single night. Yes, mostly
every night. I thought you justsaid four questions ago. It depends on
whether or not the phone needs tobe charged. Sometimes you keep it in
bed, times you put it onthe charge. If the phone needs to
be charged, I charge it,but I sleep in bed with my phone.

(02:03:45):
Albert, did your phone need tobe charged anymore? I don't remember
if it did, but I sleptin bed with the phone. We've been
on a road trip most of theday. Yes, you've been out of
bars that night, correct. Yes, Yes, weren't charging your phone.
We saw them the videot. Youweren't charging your phone at the bar,
right, So when you got home, clearly put your phone on a charger.

(02:04:08):
Did but I did not. Soif your kids needed to get a
hold of you, why would beWhy would the phone being in your bed
be an assistance to you instead ofjust on the charger of the nut set.
That's just what I've always done.I just keep it in my bed.
My wife, my wife, Mywife does the same thing. So
now you've got two phones in theyes, and your glasses. Yes,

(02:04:29):
right between the two. Yes,your phone have a ringer on it?
It does ever thought about maybe turningthe ringer on? Just in case the
kids need to get a hold ofyou. Sometimes that's on vibrate, sometimes
it's on ring It depends, Itdepends on you. Just put it on
ringer. Wouldn't it make more senseto go to bed put it on a
ringer? O? Jacson? Canyou answer that? All I can answer

(02:04:55):
is that I sleep up my phonein my bed. That's just what I
do. And you you know whatI'm about to ask you. This is
why you're saying you sleep with thephone in the bed. Correct, That's
that's sustain, that's spun Jackson art. What else is in the bed with
you? Your keys, your wallet, any other pocket items? No,

(02:05:16):
just the phone in your glasses?Yes, and Nicole's phone, yes,
right between the two of you usuallyyes. What about that night? Yes?
So did you make any phone callsafter you went to bed between the
hours of one forty five am andsix thirty am? Yes? Who did

(02:05:38):
you call? I inadvertently called BrianHiggins? What time? I don't recall
the exact time, after two twotwenty two and thirty five seconds? Does
that sound familiar? Yes? Didyou speak to Brian Higgins at any point

(02:05:58):
between one four five am six thirtyam that night. No, you say
you inadvertently called him at twenty twoin the morning. Yes, how did
you inadvertal call? Well, Idon't know because it was inadvertant or I
have to explain that. Well,it's kind of like a butt dial.
Unlet the butt that all right?How long have you used an iPhone?

(02:06:24):
Not a long time. As amatter of fact, you've been asked this
question before, haven't you. Yes, Hence my question, you knew what
I was going to ask you,jaestion, I'll withdraw. You indicated previously
at a different hearing in June twentytwenty three, that you record hanging out

(02:06:47):
with your wife and you must havebutt dialed mister Higgins. Correct. Yes,
at two twenty two and thirty fiveseconds on January twenty ninth, twenty
twenty two. Correct. Yes,you were asked how that could have happened,
much like I just asked how thatcould have happened? Right, Yes,
And in that hearing you said,quote, I'm not totally sure,

(02:07:11):
similar to what you just said here, yes, and here you added that
it could have been a butt die. Yes. You were then called back
to that same hearing, but ata different date. Ongoing here right,
Yes, that was in July oftwenty twenty three. Right, Yes,

(02:07:31):
you then changed your testimony and said, and I don't mean to be indelicate.
Your testimony was then that you werehaving you in an intimate situation,
but it that way with Nicole atthe time, and that's how you butt
dialed Brian Niggins. Correct. Idon't believe I said that's how I butt
dialed Brian Higgins. That's the time. I think I said. There was

(02:07:53):
a timeframe that that was closed.Okay, So I didn't say that.
Now, what you said was youwere in an intimate situation with the whole
at the time that the butt dialoccurred. Right, I'm not sure if
you if you have something you canread me or show me, is it

(02:08:15):
your testimony? Let me just askthat you and your wife were in the
middle of some sort of sexual orintimate situation and that's what caused you to
butt dial the phone at that timeat two twenty two eight Action System.
I'd like to show you exhibit briefly. Hope, just doyah, I approach

(02:08:46):
you. Yes, I'm not inmy business, sir. I just want
to find out if this refreshes yourecollect you look at lines eleven through forteen,
and then let me know when you'reprepared. Yes, thank yeah,

(02:09:13):
approach. Yes, does that refreshyour recollection that you indicated at the other
hearing, just the first part ofthat first Does that refresh your recollection?
It does, thank you. Art. Isn't it true that at the other

(02:09:33):
hearing you indicated that act or aroundthe two twenty two chime frame you and
your wife were in bed together inan intimate situation? Yes, around that
time, I think it reads.May I approach briefly? Arm yes,

(02:09:56):
Well, with the court FLI letme ask a couple of questions. Do
you recall every call that you madebetween say, one am and the next
couple of days. Do you rememberevery single one of those calls? Have
you? Do you think it wouldrefresh your recollection to look at a log
of those calls during that time frame, if we're going to discuss those yes,

(02:10:22):
yes, yeah, I mean noteven day. That's a two pages

(02:10:43):
worth of documents. If it refreshesyour recollection. As we walk through this
with the court's permission, let meknow if you need to refer to that,
right, you know, I'm notgoing to be able to read it,
right now do it as you ask? Correct? Correct, Yeah,
you don't need to read right now. He just wanted to have it in
front of you. By the way, you've seen these records before. Correct

(02:11:07):
at the other at the other hearingproceeding, I've seen some records before.
Yes, I don't know if theseexact records are not all right, and
you've acknowledged that at least the firstpage. These are your phone records for
the number ending zero eight eight eightcorrect? Yes, okay, And these
are call records from January twenty ninth, Yes, at two twenty two and

(02:11:33):
thirty five seconds in the morning.Correct, Yes, whose number ends in
five four two one? According tothis it's Brian Higgins. The call at
two twenty two and thirty five secondsappears to be one second in length,
and that's from you to him.Correct, it says one second. I
don't know that would be the call, the initial call from you to him,

(02:11:54):
the one that you claim is abutt dial? Right? Yes?
Did that call roll to voicemail andthen you immediately hung up? No?
I don't I don't recall if Idon't know. So, according to you,
it was a butt dial that wentto his phone and somehow lasted one
second, right, Okay, thenthere's a second call. If you look

(02:12:16):
at the second line down, there'sa second call at two twenty two and
fifty two seconds, seventeen seconds later. Correct. Yes, that call is
actually from Brian Higgins to you,isn't it. Yes, And that call
doesn't last one second. That calllasts twenty two seconds. Correct. Yes,

(02:12:37):
obviously you know how long twenty twoseconds is. What's that? You
know how long twenty two seconds lasts? Yes, So, according to your
phone records, you placed a callto him and then seventeen seconds later he
returned a call to you that lastedtwenty two seconds. Correct, that's what
the records reflect. Yes, whenyou woke up in the morning, you

(02:12:58):
have the checked your phone, didyou not? I don't know if I
did. Are you telling this jurythat the call that came into your phone
was a missed call? Or didyou answer it? I did not answer
it, so it would have beena missed call. I just know I
didn't answer the call, so itwould have been a missed call. I

(02:13:18):
don't know. I don't know thatto be a fact. I just know
I didn't answer the phone call.I missed the call. Yes, that's
for me. Right, you missedthe call? Right, it did something
on the phone and you just didn'tanswer. What do you right? And
again you're using an iPhone. Yes, if you butt dialed Brian Higgins and

(02:13:39):
he called you back and you didn'tanswer, you would have a very bright
red missed call in your call loguecorrect jection. Do you know that?
I don't know that. Have youever missed a call on your iPhone before?
Yes? And when you go toyour call logus, it says missed
calling red correct. If your wifecalls you and your kids call you,

(02:14:00):
I don't think I've ever noticed thatit's in red, and so now I
don't know that to be true.You're certainly alerted to the fact that it's
a missed call, that you missedthe call. Right. If I were
to go back and look at myincoming calls, it would probably say miss
the call. Yes. And ofcourse if we asked you to show us
your phone and show that that wasa missed call, you couldn't do that

(02:14:24):
because you've gotten rid of that phonecorrect injection. As system, did you
tell anyone in law enforcement that nextday that oddly Brian Higgins was calling you
at two twenty two am and youmissed a call. No, I wasn't
aware of that call. If acall went to voicemail on your phone,
you would get that voicemail. Correct, you get notice of it. If

(02:14:48):
I checked my voicemails and there wasa voicemail, I would get it.
Yes, that's my question. Didyou get a voicemail from Brian Higgins?
No, which means you didn't leavea voicemail, right, suggests that you
answered the call. Correct, objection. Let's talk for a second about this
butt dial. You went to bedand you closed and your phone was closed

(02:15:11):
and locked your phone. Correct.Yes, I don't want you to tell
me what the passcode is, misteralbert That's important. I want to make
sure you understand. I'm not askingyou to tell me what the passcode is.
But at the time, was yourpastcode a four digit or sixty digit
passcode? Four? I believe,and that locks the phone when it's not

(02:15:31):
in use. Correct, The phonewill lock after it's not used for a
while. I don't know the exacttiming of it. Exactly right, mister
Albert, I said it back onthe phone automatically locks. You have to
use the four digit pastor unlocked correctly. Well, no, I also have
a voice I mean face recognition too, so it can open that way without
any passcode. We'll get to thatin a second. The phone locks when

(02:15:52):
it's not in use, correct,yes. And then to make a call,
once you open the phone, eitherthrough facial record mission or through the
pastor, then you have to tapon the phone app in order to open
up the phone app. Correct,Yes, I believe so. Once you
open up that phone app, thereare only three ways that you can initiate

(02:16:16):
a phone call. Favorites, recents, and contacts. Correct. I don't
know that. If you tap ona contact, that opens up the contact
page of the contact app. Rightyou know that? Yes? Where are
your contacts? Yes, they're alphabetis. Yes, you have to either scroll

(02:16:37):
through or do a search and typein the name of the person you're looking
for. Right. You didn't dothat, did you? No? If
you tap favorites, if you havefavorites listed, there's a list of favorites,
you have to scroll through and tapthe one that you want to call.
Correct I think so, Yes,I'm not totally aware of that.
But and if you tap on recents, those are the recent recent calls that

(02:16:58):
you've had, you've either received ormade, and of course you have to
tap on the contacts in the recentlist that you want to call, right
yes, And then of course youwould have to tap again to end whatever
call you initiate. Right yes.I mean you don't just say goodbye and
you've got to say goodbye and hangup. You got to tap it to
hang it up, right, Sowould you agree from a closed and locked

(02:17:22):
phone, there is no physical mechanismby which a person can hit it one
button and make a phone call.Chection Sustaine, Are you saying that from
your closed and locked phone you inadvertentlytapped your phone one time and that initiated

(02:17:46):
a butt dial to Brian Himsche Isthat what you're saying. No, that's
not what I'm saying. Tell mewhat you're saying. How did you butt
Ryan Hangings? I don't know.I don't know that the phone was locked.
I could have been looking through myphone. I dial people often and
make inadvertent calls. I could havehit a last call from him by accident,

(02:18:11):
thus calling his phone. So youwere actually awaken on your phone at
the time. I was awake,and I could have been looking at my
phone. How did you just callseventeen seconds later? Well, my wife
was in the room with me andwe were hanging out, and I never

(02:18:31):
got the second call from him,So I'm not sure what time he called.
I'm not sure what I was doingat that second, but I don't
know. But it didn't go tovoicemail. Well I didn't get a voicemail
from him. No, so itdidn't go to voicemail. Well, I
don't know that. I didn't don'tknow that it didn't go to voicemail.
I just know that I didn't receivea voicemail from him. I mean,

(02:18:54):
we're all guessing here, but Imean he could have called voicemail. Well
you are, because you don't knowif he left the voicemail or didn't or
at least got voicemail and then hungup the phone. I think one of
us is trying to guess jection youron Sistine. You know what I want
to see comes with side. Areyou now saying that your phone was open

(02:19:22):
and unlocked. I'm saying I couldhave been. Are you saying that it
was I don't know, job youwere the only person that was there with
your phone. Was the phone unlockedand did you make a call? Jection?
Can you answer that? Sure?I don't know. And seventeen seconds
later, again, presuming you're theonly person there with the phone, did

(02:19:43):
you answer that call? I didnot. You would agree that in order
to answer a call, you can'tjust look at your phone to answer.
It has to be swiped, correct. I think you can. You can
hit I think it comes up greenor read for the phone call, whether
it's locked or not, and youcan hit green, right, But you
have to hit a button. Yes? Did you hit a button to answer

(02:20:05):
a call? Haggins? I don't. I don't need to talk over you.
Please let me finish my question.Did you hit a button answer a
phone call from Brian Higgins at twotwenty two and fifty two seconds in the
morning? Not that I know of? You do note that that phone will
not answer on its own correct,yes, And simply touching your butt will
not answer that phone. It hasto be swiped. No, I don't

(02:20:26):
think it has to be swiped.You would agree that a twenty two second
call from Brian Higgins had to havebeen answered by you? Isn't that right?
Jaction? Do you agree with that? No? Didn't? Who else
was in the room, just myselfand my wife and Chloe. Yes,
but Chloe's not a human, soit was myself and my wife. By

(02:20:46):
process of elimination. Nicole didn't answerthat call, did she no? Chloe,
a non human, didn't answer thatcall, did she no? So
who had to have answered the call? Sir objection? Can you answer that
I don't remember answering that call.Could have hit the phone by accident,

(02:21:09):
causing it to answer. Okay,let's move on from this. Missus Jacks,
jonder if I could have one ortwo more questions? One more question?
Now? Your testimony is you couldhave answered the call. Correct.
No, my testimony is that Idon't know. You're asking me how it
could have answered, and I'm tryingto answer your question. At a prior
hearing in June of twenty twenty two, you were asked this exact question and

(02:21:33):
you answered, quote, yeah,it's only possible that it's new. Correct.
I don't recall answering that way,but I'm not sure. And you
were also asked, after being confrontedwith this these records, quoth yes,
I could have talked to him,meaning mister Higgins. Correct. I don't

(02:21:54):
know. I don't recall saying thatnow let's go go. Did you have
any conversation with Brian Higgins about atwo twenty two am phone call that next
morning? Well, everything was goingon. I mentioned to Brian that I

(02:22:18):
may have but dialed you last night. Sorry about that. Did the two
of you agree that you were goingto both say those calls were butt dials
in order to cover up those calls? Objection? You can answer that we
did not say that. But let'sbe clear, since then and now you've
gotten rid of your phone. Correct, I upgraded my phone. Yes,

(02:22:39):
and since then and now Brian Higginshas gotten rid of his phone and you're
aware of that as well. Yes. By the way, you indicated that
you were awakened in the morning byJim McKay about six thirty correct. Yes,
And when you woke up, yousaid you grabbed your phone to make
a call. Is that right?No? Isn't it true that you grabbed

(02:23:03):
your phone and called made a callat seven twenty in the morning. Yes,
but that's not when I was awokenby my sister in law. Sorry
that that was my wish. Afteryou were awake and you're up right start
making calls? Right? My questionis what was the first call you made

(02:23:24):
seven Can I look at this ifthat refreshes your recollection with the court's permission.
At seven twenty I called Brian HigginsStravick. You have six siblings and
five kids, right, Yes,you have in laws, cousins, huge
family. Correct. Yes, Butin the morning you find out that John

(02:23:46):
o'keef is playing dead or dying onyour on your law. The first call
you made in seven to twenty wasto Brian Higgins. Is that right?
Yes, the same person you hada call with, or at least the
lags indicate you had a call withat two twenty two in the morning,
correct, Yes, during that seventwenty am call, did you two discuss

(02:24:07):
the two twenty two am calls?No, but you just said that you
told him, Oh I think Imay have butt out. Yeah. That
was later in the morning when hecame to the house, not on that
seven twenty am call. No,What did you talk about on that seven
twenty am call? I informed himof what was going on at my house.
We were out the night before,and I thought it was important for
him to know what had happened.Albert, I have a couple of more

(02:24:33):
questions about the phones or the phoneusage that morning and in the day Throughout
the day. You called Brian Higginsat seven twenty am for one minute and
fifty six seconds. Correct, Yes, Brian Higgins calls you at seven thirty
five minutes and forty seven seconds.Yes. You called Brian Higgins at seven

(02:24:56):
to fifty seven AM for twelve minutesand thirty three seconds. Yes. You
then called your brother Kevin Albert atnine to forty am and spoke for one
minute in five seconds. Yes.Chief Burkewitz called you at nine to fifty
am and left a voicemail. Isthat right? He didn't leave me a

(02:25:18):
voicemail, but I think he calledme. You called Chief Burkewitz back at
nine to fifty four four minutes laterand spoke for four minutes and forty seconds,
right. Yes. You called Jimmccab at eleven thirty am. Is
that right? Yes, Jim mcabecalled you back at twelve twenty pm.
You spoke for seven minutes and fiftytwo seconds. Yes. Called Kevin Albert

(02:25:41):
again at two to one in theafternoon and spoke for eight minutes. Yes,
you called Kevin Albert at six fortyfive. I'm sorry you called Brian
Higgins at three twenty four pm andspoke for six minutes and five seconds.
Is that right? And if itrefreshes your recollection, there's a second page,
second log. You'll turn your attentionto the three twenty four pm time

(02:26:05):
frame trying to find it. Takeyour time. What time are you referring
to three twenty four pm? Isee it? Yes, And there's a
second call. You call Brian Higginsat six twelve pm speak for a minute

(02:26:28):
and seven seconds, right, yes. And then the third one on that
page, you called Brian Higgins atsix thirty five pm, spoke for ten
minutes and twelve seconds. Correct.Yes. Turning back to your call loves,
you called Kevin Albert at six fortyfive on the next on that same
day, spoke for about sixteen minutes. Yes. Then on the next day,

(02:26:48):
January thirtieth, you called Chief Berkowitzand spoke for a minute in six
seconds. Yes. And the followingday you spoke with Jim McKay. You
called you at eighth four pm.Correct, yes. And finally she Burkewitz
called you at one forty eight pmon February first, right. Yes.

(02:27:09):
Three days later you spoke again toBrian Higgins at eight forty eight am.
Is that right? Yes, thesubject of these calls, mister Albert,
were all about the fact that Johno'keeith was found dying on your yard,
on your lawn on January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two. Isn't that right?
I don't know the subject of allthese calls. Now, you had

(02:27:31):
to have been talking about that event. Of course. It was a horrible
situation that was going on. Everybodywas distraught, and there were a lot
of phone calls. This this call, Loug, doesn't encompass all the phone
calls. It doesn't. There area lot of phone calls being made to
a lot of people because of thishorrible situation. And the point is,
mister Albert, those many calls thatyou've just described, especially as they pertain

(02:27:56):
to Brian Higgins, Jim McKay,Kenny burker WIT's your brother, Kevin Albert,
were those many calls and effort toget stories straight at the time.
No, absolutely not for those manycalls and effort going into a feature.
We're going to send the jury out. Where's actually why don't we why don't

(02:28:16):
we take the lunch? I'll seecomes side that quote? All right?
Who never asks me, all right, so we'll have the lunch and recess.
Then all right, you are muted. Say thanks, see quote is

(02:28:52):
back. You are muted. So, mister Jackson, if I had realized
that you only had a couple ofquestions, If jack we would not have
taken the break when we did.Please thank you, joh I want to
address it a couple of quick thingsthat we talked about a little bit earlier

(02:29:15):
in September twenty second, twenty twentytwo. Date. Recall that date.
Yes, that's the date that youindicated believe you got rid of your phone
or turned your phone into upright?Did you watch the proceedings that on this
case, the Carbon Will versus Karenread on September twenty second, twenty twenty
two. No, if you werenot aware that that was the first date
that I appeared on this case,but it was nationally televisis objection sustained.

(02:29:41):
Were you aware that that that hearingdate of September twenty second, twenty twenty
two was a televised hearing? Objectionsustained? What did you know about the
hearing date of September twenty second,twenty twenty two. I didn't know anything
about it, nothing about it.No, let me ask you. It's
a different question. This is goingto do till into of earlier conversations you

(02:30:05):
and I had concerning statement that yougave to the in June of twenty twenty
three to the other in the otherhearing, you understand what I'm saying.
Yes, I'm fumbling the language alittle bit, but you understand the hearing
that I'm talking about. Yes,you and indicated a little bit earlier in
my questioning that you did not recallsaying something to the effect of, yeah,

(02:30:30):
it's only possible that it was mewho answered the phone. You remember
saying that that you didn't recall thatyes, okay, mayor yes, sir
Albert. There's a highlighted portion ofthat transcript. If you just take a

(02:30:50):
look at that, and when you'refinished reviewing it, just look up at
me and let me know, yes, I get ye. Sure, mister

(02:31:16):
Robert, did that refresh your recollectionas to the call queen that you had
with someone questioning you about this issuein June of twenty twenty three, Yes,
and in fact you testified as followas follows. Question is there can
you just but then you Jackson youare as far as a reading, as

(02:31:37):
far as what reading from the transcript, he's asked him if his memories are
fresh? All right, So goahead and ask him a question. Don't
read from the transcript. Did you, in fact say an answer to the
question, if it's not your wifeand it's not your dog, who else
is it possible on earth to answerthis phone answer? Yeah, it's only
possible that it's me. Yeah.Yes. Just before the break, I

(02:32:07):
was asking you about those as youindicated, many phone calls that you traded
between and among your family members andfriends, including Brian Higgins. You recall
that, yes, were those callsand effort to get your stories straight about
how you were going to what statementsyou were going to give to law enforcement,
and how are you going to testifyit's this case? Ever want to

(02:32:28):
try? No? Absolutely not.Were those calls, those many calls and
effort to coordinate narratives between you andyour friends and your family. Now,
were those many calls in any waydiscussing the fact of creating a story of
mysterious butt dials? Yes, thankyou, okay, silly, thank you,

(02:33:03):
Aran, good so good afternoon.You were asked some questions about the

(02:33:28):
week prior to being at the waterfall, at some point you were at the
hillside correct. Yes, you werethere with friends and family, is that
correct. Yes, you weren't specificallythere with either mister OKEI or the defense
correct. No, I was not, And the same with respect to the
waterfall in January twenty eighth. Youwere there with friends and families that correct.
Yes, you weren't specifically there withmister oke corect No, they came

(02:33:50):
on related to anything I was doing. And you were shown some video from
the waterfall from January twenty eighth inwhich you were speaking at a sort of
section of the table correct. Yes, And was it defendant the only person
in that section of the table.No, there were other people around her
behind her. Is that correct.Yes, it looked like there were other

(02:34:11):
people at the table as well assituated right behind where she was sitting.
And those other people around her behindher. Those are people that you knew
far better on January twenty eighth thanthe dependants. Yes, those are my
relatives and friends, and that's whyI was at that location. You were

(02:34:31):
asking questions about going over to MissKaye's house later on the afternoon of the
twenty nine correct, Yes, Whydid you go over there? I went
to gents house because she's my sisterin law. She was going through an
awful time that morning, as weall were, and I wanted to be
there a comforter if she needed anything, because we're so close. I didn't

(02:34:54):
want her to feel like this wastoo much for her to handle. Again,
how long have you known, misterKaty. I've known Chance since she
was probably six or seven years old. She's like a sister to me.
Now. At your home on theJanuary twenty eighth and the January twenty ninth,

(02:35:15):
when people came back after the waterfall, did you, at any point
in time go into the basement areaof your home? No? Did Brian
Higgins at any time go to notthat I know of her. Did you
see anyone go into the basement areaof your home during the time that you
were there after coming home to thewaterfall? No? Now, you were
asked some questions about your dog Chloein that she wasn't great with strangers.

(02:35:39):
What exactly did you mean by all? I meant was that she wasn't overly
affectionate with strangers. She's a heavydog. Not everybody likes dogs, so
if there's going to be people atthe house that don't know the dog,
they might not particularly want her aroundthem. Were you more concerned about the

(02:36:00):
people in the house that didn't knowChloe or more concerned about Chloe yourself the
people in the house. Never hasthe dog, to my knowledge, been
aggressive to anybody, except for thetime that there was a fight between two
dogs. You were shown and Exhibitsixty six that was sort of a drawing

(02:36:22):
of your house. Do you callthat yes? And have you ever seen
that prior to today? No?And do you recall, specifically within the
raw ring of the artist's rendering ofyour house there were certain lights on around
the garage in the front door.I did notice that, yes. And
do you recall whether or not thoselights were on when you came home from
the waterfall in January twenty ninth.I don't recall, But oftentimes those lights

(02:36:46):
are off, and sometimes the bulbsdon't even work in them. And when
Ms McKay comes into your bedroom sometimeafter six am on twenty nine, Yes,
that was fallowing day in which youwoke up in New York City and
went to a funeral. Is thatcorrect? Yes? I went to a
funeral that morning in New York andthat was for a home police officer from

(02:37:09):
New York City at Park. Yes, a police officer in New York that
had been murdered well on duty,and that was his funeral. And did
you know that police officer whose funeralyou attended? Objection the objection sustain?
Next question now with reference to youthen drive all the way home from New
York to Massachusetts. Correct, Yes, And you went out to a couple

(02:37:33):
of different places, had a coupleof drinks correct, yes, and then
went back to your home and wentto bed sometime around two am or so,
Yes, after two and so.About how long had you been a
seaved from the time that you dozedoff to the time that Ms McKay comes
into your bedroom that morning? Onlya few hours, probably three four hours,

(02:37:54):
three and a half four hours.Now, in relation to you waking
up that morning, you testified thatyou did not go outside correct? Yes,
and why not? Initially, whenI woke up and I was told
what was going on out front,I looked out my window and I saw

(02:38:15):
some emergency vehicles. I did notsee John at that time. I came
downstairs with my wife and she askedwhere it was John, and Jen said
that he was SUSTI next question,what was your understanding of where mister O'Keefe

(02:38:37):
was when he came downstairs? Suctionask it differently, mister Mally in reference
to when you came downstairs, whatwas your understanding of medically what was going
on outside objection the objection system.Was there any reason for you to go

(02:38:58):
outside of your house? No,there was not at that time. There
was no victim out in front ofmy house, so there was no first
aid for me to give. Therewas nothing I could do. And you
were asking questions about the sort ofbulkhead in the back of your house.
Correct, Yes, where is thatbulkhead in relation to the bay windows of

(02:39:20):
the kitchen that you're testifying about it? So the bulkhead door is directly under
the bay windows in the kitchen.The bulkhead door opens up almost directly into
the windows, obviously without hitting them, but it opens up into the front
of the bay windows. What yousaw as far as that video that was
shown to you, that's not whatthe bulkhead looked like. That's not what

(02:39:43):
the door looked like at that time. On January twenty eight, twenty nine,
twenty two. No, those notthe doors we had. And as
far as the bulkhead was concerned,when that bulkhead was opened around that time,
what if any kind of noise wouldthat bullhead a loud, creaking,
old, rusty metal sound when youopened it? Is that something that if

(02:40:05):
it was opened and you were inthe kitchen area you could hear. Yes.
Now, in reference to that bulkhead, what if any security or what
if was it opened, was itlocked? How was that left? So
the bulkhead door was shut and itwas broken, so sometimes you could turn
the middle thing to lock it,and sometimes it would be hot to do.

(02:40:26):
But the wooden door that goes intothe basement has a lock on the
door knob. That is a doorthat we keep locked because we don't use
it. Now, as far asfrom the bulkhead, you were shown in
that video a gate that opens upin the front yard area the house.
Is that correct? Yes? Andwhat if any other gates are located on

(02:40:48):
the fence in your backyard. Sowe also have a gate on the rear
part of the fence, and there'salso a gate on the opposite side of
the house. And the gate inthe rear area of the sense, where
does that lead to? So thatleads to some woods and then eventually you'll
hit some train tracks. With respectto your phone, that was something that

(02:41:11):
you had upgraded prior to any notificationyou received from the Digrict Attorney's office or
anything in relation to the preserving thephones correctly. Yes. Now with respect
from that, as far as theinformation contained within the phone, there certain
types of information. Are you familiarwith being sort of backed up by the
clouds? Yes? Would that includecalls? It? It could? Could

(02:41:37):
that also include text yes? Couldthat include photos? Yes? That improved
contacts? Yes, And the informationthat you were shown as far as certain
call logs or call records, asfar as you know, was that generated
after that September of twenty twenty twodays? Yes. Now with respect to
the preservation that was in regard toa the council has filed for your physical

(02:42:01):
fund right yes. Are you alsoaware of a judge's order denying that repeatedly?
As far as them gaining access toyour physical phone objection, I'll allow
it. Yes, it was deniedon multiple occasions. I'll strike the multiple
occasions. You were asked some questionsabout boxing correct Yes, And the boxing

(02:42:26):
that you did that was in relationto a group associated with the Boston Police
Department. Is that correct? Yes? And when was the last time that
you were involved in any kind ofactual boxing match. Twenty close to twenty
years ago. Now, with respectto some of the training that you were
talking about with respect to the BostonPolice Department, you were given some training

(02:42:50):
as far as defensive tactics. Isthat correct? Yes? And is that
something that is standard that is sortof given an administered to every Boston Police
officer. Yes. Within the academyyou go to the defensive tactics training and
that would includes Jonald Keith correct.Yes. Now, as far as your

(02:43:13):
house, we used to live thirtyfourth Fairview Road, What if anything did
you observe or notice with reference tocell phone reception in that area? So
oftentimes using the phone within my house, it seemed like it was a slang
term the dead zone for the phone. A reception wasn't great. And is

(02:43:39):
that something that recurred over the timethat you lived there. Yes. Now,
with reference to the phone and priorto the intimate moment that you shared
with your wife, have you callwhether or not the phone screen was locked
at that time when you're checking thatat that particular time. I don't recall

(02:44:01):
the exact timing, but I knowit was opened sometimes and then it was
closed obviously at some point, butI don't know the exact timing. So
the phone may not have been lockedat the time that you began that situation
as well. It may not havebeen a reference to the calls of the
phone records that you were shown thebest of your memories that party, of

(02:44:24):
the phone calls that you made aroundthat time. No, it looks like
it's selective people in numbers, andwith respect to those conversations, if you
recall what if anything in general termswas discussing with either those people in the
logs or other people in general ingeneral, I'm sure there was some discussion
about the awful thing that had takenplace, and there may have been other

(02:44:48):
calls unrelated as well. And Ihave one long term Yes, I'm mister
Albert. On the early morning ofJanuary twenty ninth, twenty twenty two,
did John o' keith ever come intoyour house that night? John never came
into my house that night. Hewould have been welcomed and the defendant would
have been welcomed with open arms.Had they come in? And I wish

(02:45:11):
they had? I really, doyou ever even aware that John Key or
the defendant were anywhere in the areaof your house? Very nar early morning
in January twenty nine, I wasnot nothing further on, no, very
okay, So talk tout cel phonereception not being good in your house?

(02:45:33):
When did you and mister Raley talkabout that celf phone reception? For share
what self phone reception issue in yourhouse? It came up during during one
of the preps, which prep Idon't remember which prep, probably the last
one, which only had one prepwith mister Well. We had the prep
before the grand jury, and thenI had the prep for this trial.

(02:45:54):
Okay, so such two. Soyou brought up the fact that you had
a self reception in that preparation.The conversation came out ys taking notes.
I don't recall if he was takingnotes. Is this recorded? I don't
believe so. And where did yousay this conversation took las? So the
prep was at the District Attorney's office, which is in Canton. This morning,

(02:46:18):
when I asked you, you saidyou couldn't quite remember where it took
place. You're right, I couldn'tremember this morning, and I asked you,
could it have been the DA's officeand now your memories are fresh?
Yes? What refreshed your memory betweenthis morning and now? I was just
thinking about it in my head andreminded myself that it was the DA's office.
You you caught me off. God, when you had asked me,
I didn't have it at the topof mind. Did you talk to mister

(02:46:39):
Lalie over the lunchchower briefly spring upthe factory? Did that cell reception in
your house over the lunchower? Justnow? No? What did you talk
about it the lunchhower? Just?What was how much time I was going
to have left on the stand?That was really about it. So you

(02:47:00):
and Rally talked about the fact thatyou've been on across the nonidation for two
and a half hours, and theconversation consisted of probably others. Yeah,
I think he was going to lunchor doing something. So you didn't talk
about the substance of your testimony.No, I didn't tell you what questions
he's going to ask you and redirectmaybe mentioned one one thing he may ask
me, but that was it.What was up? Just he was going

(02:47:24):
to ask about what happened at thehouse in the morning. That's you know,
some of the questions on redirect,that's all meaning he was going to
ask you the question about whether Johncame in the house. No, not
necessarily just asked you about whether ornot you had best seller section in the
house. No, I was goingto ask you. He was going to
ask about the morning of the incident, about coming downstairs and why I didn't

(02:47:48):
go outside. You can tell youwhat it would be helpful for the commonwealth.
Nope, tell you how you thoughtyou should answer that question. No,
I did ask you about about asituation and concerning the motion to preserve
correct. No, but I'm sorryhe asked you on redirect about the motion.

(02:48:09):
Oh, yes, yes, Imentioned that there was an emotion that
had been denied for us to getfurther offense to get access to your phone.
Yes, we're aware that that motionwas denied in October of twenty twenty
two. Yes, you'd already gotrid of your phone a month earlier.
Yes, and the preservation order fromthe judge was still in embrace when you

(02:48:35):
got rid of that phone, wasn'tit. No. I believe the phone
was upgraded prior to the preservation orderthe day before. Yes, all right,
mister Albert, you are all set, okay, thank you, Thank
you, Jerry. Your next witnesswas Tonally. Yes, JOHNA. Collbell

(02:48:56):
called Brian Albert Junior to the stand. Okay, h h h. You
know with the course mission, thepapers that were left up there with the
last witness, I don't think aremarked as anything. I just said,
return the counsel. Let's step rightup here the park. You saw this

(02:49:33):
with the unte of the court andduring the case derogation to truth, the
whole truth and nothing. I didn'tthank you. Yeah, Hey, whenever
you're ready, mister Valley. Hgood, good afternoon. Would you please

(02:50:07):
state your name ands fore your lastname. My name is Brian Albert Junior
and it's a L. B.E. R. T. And I
live currently in Norwood, m A. And how long have you lived in
Norwood? I believe since last Ithink it's about a year since last May.
And prior to moving to Norwoods,where did you live? I lived

(02:50:30):
in Canton and where specifically in canonthirty four Fairvue Road. And how long
was it sure that you lived?Uh, I'm going to guess, but
I'm gonna say, maybe about tenyears and how old announce? I'm twenty
five. And with respect to bothwhere you live in Norwood and where you
lived in Canton with anyone, Well, when I lived in Canton, I

(02:50:54):
lived at one point with my foursiblings, but then some of them moved
out, and then in Norwood nowit's basically just me and my parents,
and two of my siblings are atschool, so they come home in the
summer and stuff. And by yourparents meet, your father's name is Brian
Albert as well as that correctly,yes, and your mother's name is Nicole.
Yes, Now you work it?Oh, yeah, I do.

(02:51:20):
I work in it? And howlong have you been doing that? That
job will be a year? Maybea year in August, I believe.
So if I could turn your attentionto the time frame of January twenty eighth,
twenty twenty two to January twenty ninth, twenty twenty you recall that is
there a time frame? Yes,I do. And with the twenty eighth

(02:51:43):
and the twenty ninth, you know, lovely what day week that was?
Maybe Friday and Saturday, I believe. And with respect to twenty eighth or
the twenty ninth, with if anysignificance to those states have. Yeah,
So the twenty ninth is my birthday. The twenty eighth was the day
before my birthday obviously, so Ihad a few friends over from my from

(02:52:07):
my birthday. And you recall howold you were turning on the twenty ninth,
that was what two years two yearsago, so it would be twenty
twenty three, twenty three, Ithink, yeah, twenty three. Now,
in the week leading up to thatweekend, what if any plans have

(02:52:28):
with respect to sort of the nightbefore and the night of the birth Yeah,
so I was kind of up inthe air. I didn't know if
I wanted to go out. I'mkind of a home body person and I
had to stay at home, soI was kind of up in the air.
So my plan was to have someof my friends over to my house.
We would eat, have a coupleof drinks, and then I would
decide then if I wanted to goout locally in Canton or not. So

(02:52:52):
that was my plan. And thena few days before that's when we found
out that the snowstorm is actually gonnahappen. You know how I'd always I
always say it's gonna snow, andit over does so then that kind of
threw a wrench in it, butI was kind of like, well,
we'll see what happens, and sowe went along with the plan. And

(02:53:13):
that was the evening of January twentyeighth. Yeah, at some point people
came over your house? Was thatbright? Yes? And about what time
was it that that the friends firststarted coming over? I would say my
friends first arrived probably around seven thirtypm. And who were the first of
your friends group that came to yourhouse that night? The first two were

(02:53:35):
Sarah and Julie And just the record, sarahs the last name is what Levinson
and Ju's last name is Nagel.And with respect to them coming over to
your house, was there anybody elsefrom your household, of your family or
anybody else that was present when whenSarah and Julie stopped by. I believe

(02:53:58):
when they first got there, mymom was still at the house. She
hadn't left yet to go out whereshe was going, you know where she
was going. I believe she wasgoing to the Waterfall bar and grill,
you know, with anyone she wasgoing there way, Yes, she got
picked up on my aunt Julie.Now it's Levinson is Nago. How long

(02:54:18):
have you known I've known them,I would say since high school. I
think I was a sophomore and theywere there a year older than me.
They were a junior, so probablya good seven eight years, nine years
ten years in between them. Andwhen they came over your house, what
was it that you did? Well, we were just hanging out. Well,
I had a few more friends whoare on their way, so they

(02:54:39):
came after I'm probably around eight o'clockI would say eight fifteen. They were
there and we were just all hangingout, listening to music. We ate
some food. I think we playedsome card games, just normal hangout stuff.
And over the course of this eveningin yourself and your guests that you
also have some alcohol. No,yeah, people were drink get up speaking

(02:55:01):
what people were drinking mostly like Seltzer'slike White Claws or True's and stuff like
that. You mentioned that some otherfriends came about a half hour or so
after Julie and Sarah arrived. Thatcorrect, Yes, And who were they
they are? Do you want theirphone names or okay? They are Catherine
Duty Katherine trying to say Emily Fabiano, Courtney Alba, and I think that's

(02:55:31):
it that I can recall as Isit here. And with respect to those
other friends, Uh, how didyou know them? How long did I
knew everyone? From school? Weall went to high school together, so
that the other ones were in mygrade, so we were closer friends because
they were in my grade. SoI've known them for a long time.

(02:55:52):
And just to be clear, whenyou say from school, you're talking about
high high school. Yes, isthat right? Yes? I did.
Now, with respect to having yourfriends over your house, was where sort
of within the house where we allsort of hang We would all just kind
of hang hang out, probably,I would say, and mostly in the

(02:56:15):
dining room, the dining room inthe kitchen were kind of like one big
open space, so we would belike in the kitchen or the dining room,
and sometimes I think we may havelike walked into like the family room
area, sat down for a littlebit, but mostly it was just the
dining room in the kitchen and thefamily room area. Is that visible from
the kitchen the dining room area,there's a wall, but there is a

(02:56:35):
doorway doorframe, so you can't seeall of the family room, but you
can see a good amount of it. Yeah, And as far as each
of your respective friends that you weretestifying from own your house, and you
have any idea of how they howthey got there? No, I don't
know. None of them drove,I know that, so I would assume
that they got dropped off by someone, but I don't know who. So
there wasn't like a pile of carslike out in front of your house at

(02:56:58):
any point, Durre in the Union. No, there was now later on
that evening, who if anyone elsecame by the well, My cousin Colin
arrived at the house at some point, and then my mom and my dad
and then came back from the waterfallback to the house at some point as
well. Now with respect to yourcousin Calm, his last name is Albert

(02:57:22):
as well. Yes, how ishe related to me? He is my
first cousin. He's my dad's brother'sson and his father would be christ Is
that correct? Yes? He ishe older, younger he's calling younger than
me? Yes, he is abouthow old was calling around this time?

(02:57:43):
Maybe seventeen? I think so washe in high school around the sun I
would assume so, yes, Andif you recall how was it sort of
the calling name over to your housethat night again shout you. At any
point did you reach out to him? Yeah, I don't exactly recall how.
I don't know how he knew thatI was at my house, but
at some point he did call meand said, oh, are you still

(02:58:05):
at your house? And I saidyes, And he said, do you
mind if I come by? AndI said no, of course, you're
welcome to come by. And withregard to earlier at your house, when
you indicated that your mother went outto the waterfall, she went out with
Julia, correct, that's your yes, And I'm sorry. I asked about
three different questions. As far asColin Colin's mother, Yes, you were

(02:58:31):
called. About what time it wasthat Colin came by, I don't recall
exactly. I would say maybe closermaybe ten eleven PM. And as far
as the other people of the house, women that you had over, did
Colin know any of them that youknew with? Yeah, Colin knew some

(02:58:54):
of them just from being in thesame town. And Colin's older brother other
is just one year old older thanme. So Colin's brothers in some of
the greatest, some of the girlsin the grade of some of the girls
that were there, So that's howwe knew them. And just to be
clear, Colin's older brother is alsonamed Christopher Aber. Yes, and now

(02:59:18):
when Colin came over to the house, as far as the things that you
were describing for as far as hangingout, is that essentially what continued at
the Collins arrival. Yeah, hewas just another addition. We just continue
to do the same stuff hanging outnow with respect too. Within the home
you've mentioned sort of the kitchen anddining you're in the family room. Were
there any other areas of the housethat anybody went to during the course of

(02:59:41):
the evening, Not to my knowledge, I mean the ba there's a bathroom,
but it's just off the kitchen,so I assume the bathroom, but
that's really it. We didn't goanywhere else than that first floor area,
so mainly in the first floor isa correct. Yes. Did you see
anybody at any time go down thebasement? No, see anybody at any
time go upstairs, not to myknowledge. You now mentioned that at some

(03:00:05):
point your parents and some people thatwere at Waterfall came to your house.
Is that right? Yes? Sofirst, my first a group of my
friends had left my house, andI think that was probably around They were
only there for a few minutes whileColin was there, so I would say
probably around eleven eleven ten. Afew group, a few select people left

(03:00:26):
the house to go home. Soat that point it was just me,
Colin, Julie Nagel, and SarahLevinson at the house until my parents arrived.
And so Courtney, Catherine and Emilywould have left at some point.
Surely have Colin rived? Yes,And when your parents came home, and
you recall what was sort of theorder of you were called about what time
that was, I would say thatwould be right around midnight. I would

(03:00:50):
say maybe twelve or five twelve tennisin that area. And it was turning
back to Colin for seconds. Yourecall, you know how Colin came to
be at your house, like howhe was dropped like if you dropped off?
Yeah, yes, I did youknow whether or not he drove there?
Was dropped off there? And theother people, well, I know

(03:01:13):
he didn't drive there, but Iwould assume he got dropped off. He
didn't say how he got there though, right, so we'll stake you don't
know how we died there, Okay? Yeah? And as far as the
order of people that arrived back atyour home, who were the first people
to arrive back at your home fromthe waterfall, The first people to arrive
were my mom, my dad,my sister Caitlin, and my dad's friend

(03:01:37):
Brian Higgins. And prior to thatevening of January twenty eighth, I had
met Higgins before. I don't recallever meeting him. I could have met
him in passing, but I don'tever formally remember meeting him. Now you
recall ever seeing him at your houseof Fairy Road part of it, I
don't think you'd ever been there thatI have saw. No, And as

(03:01:58):
far as Colin was and your parentsand your sister and mister Higgins arrived,
when in relation to that, andwhen did Colin leave? Colin was actually
getting up and leaving as they werecoming into the house. And similar to
you know how Colin left your houseor how he whether or not he droble
was picked up. Yeah, hewas sitting at the table and I was

(03:02:20):
actually sitting right next to him,and he stood up and said, I'm
leaving. Allie's picking me up.And so I knew who Ali was because
she's my cousin, and what isAli's last name? And she's your cousin
as well as that correct, Yes, Colin Albert's cousin. She's not Colin's
cousin, No, I'm she's mycousin on my mom's side, and so

(03:02:41):
Colin would be your cousin on herfather's side. Yes. And following your
father, your mother, his sister, and mister Higgins's arrival at the home,
where where do they sort of congregatedin the home And in the same
area that we were in the diningroom, in the kitchen area. My

(03:03:03):
mom got home and I know shewas went right to cleaning because she likes
to clean, so she was inthe kitchen picking out. And yeah,
we were all just in that onearea. And following their arrival back at
the home, if anyone else showedup with Johan in that particular, and
then I would say, maybe tenminutes later, my auntie JJ, well

(03:03:26):
her name is Auntie Jenen, butI call her JJ, and uncle Matt
arrived at the house. Your auntieJJ and your uncle Matt. What is
their last name mckib And was thattheir arrival was that before or after Colin
had left? Colin had already leftat that point. Yes, and so
the ali that Colin was picked upby what if any relationships she have to

(03:03:48):
your Auntie JJ, that's their daughternow well, of course of the evening,
Well, let me ask you thisas far as great was it that
the last person uh didn't live didn'tlive at your house on Febuear Road?
When was it that the last person? I wouldn't know the I couldn't tell

(03:04:13):
you the time. Well, thelast people to leave were Auntie JJ,
uncle mad Sarah and Julie. Idon't know exactly what time that would be.
I can't even guess. I don'tknow. And you mentioned your sister,
Oh oh, yes, I'm sorryshe I was just thinking of her
as my sister like sibling. Soshe didn't live in house. So she

(03:04:33):
was the last person to leave.And prior to her leaving is when you're
not JJ uncle Madam. Yes.So with respect to after your aunt JJ
and your uncle Matt Kay arrived atthe house, if anyone else came by
the house that you were with,no one, well let me ask it

(03:04:58):
this place anybody else following them actuallyphysically come into that No one else came
into the house after them now andat some point you aware were you made
aware of someone out in front ofthem? I saw someone outside of the
house, Yes, a car.And what was it that sort of drew
your attention through the front area.Yes, So at some point my friend

(03:05:22):
Julie stood up and said, oh, my brother's outside. Her brother was
there to pick her up. Andsomeone made a comment saying, oh,
no, no, but they saidwhat happened as a results, Okay,
she went outside to talk to herbrother, and so I looked out the

(03:05:43):
window at that point, and shewas outside talking to her brother. So
his truck was there, and Isaw another car there as well. And
with respect to your friend Julie nagoher brother, what is his name?
His name is Ryan Nagel. Andif you recall the time that Julie it's
up and goes outside and talk toa brother, where were you within the
house? I was still sitting inthe dining room table. And with regard

(03:06:07):
to that area of the dining roomtable, how was it that you were
able to see out in the front. There's two windows there, so I
just turned around and looked through theblinds. And when you look through the
lines, what is it that yousaw out in front of your house with
that, Yeah, so I sawa truck which was Juliano's brother's truck,
I believe, And that was alittle ways almost like in front of the

(03:06:30):
driveway of the house, and thena little ways in front of it there
was another car that I didn't Ihadn't recognized before. It was a dark
suv ish and that's all I knewabout it and could see about it now,
similar to yourself with anyone else fromsort of the group of people,
either in the kitchen or in thehouse, could you observe in your window
or door that we're working on that? I believe My uncle Matt McKay noticed

(03:06:54):
the car outside as well. Andwith respect to the darkness uv that you
didn't recognize and which you thought wasJulie Nagel's brother Lyon's truck, was there
anything in between the truck and thedark suv that you saw aside? Not
to my knowledge, I didn't seeanything now. And as far as the
weather, when you looked outside,what if anything did you know about the

(03:07:15):
weather. It was definitely snowing.I wouldn't know how many inches, but
I would say a good an inchor two snow at that point. With
regard to being out in front ofyour house, those two people, recall
which direction they were facing. Yeah, they were both facing going up Fairview
towards Cedar Crest. So whatever thisis, I don't know. Well,

(03:07:37):
let me ask you probably in abetter way. As far as what was
facing towards your house, was thatthe driver's side or the passenger side of
that would have been the passenger side, And that's with respect to both vehicles.
Is that correct? Yes? Now, at any point in time during
the time that these vehicles were outin front of your house, do you

(03:08:00):
recalling anything or any sort of noisescoming from the front of your house and
throw your attachment. No, Ididn't hear anything. No. And as
far as looking out the windows andseeing these vehicles in front of your house,
how many times did you look at? I believe I looked at that
one time, and then I thinkI looked at one more time after that.
And as far as your friend,if you know about how long was

(03:08:24):
she out in front of your houseat that time, I would say not
more than five minutes, More likelyabout three or four minutes she was outside.
And when did you see her outsidein relations to the truck as well.
Yeah, I saw her at thepassenger door of the truck. Now,
that vehicle that you that vehicle thatyou observed that you've been recognize,

(03:08:50):
dark or black a suv. Wasthat vehicle in one place or more than
one place during any time since youlooked out the window and saw Yeah.
So the first time I looked,I would say it was closer towards the
mailbox, maybe a little bit infront of the mailbox. And then the
second time, the last time Ilooked out the window, it had moved
further down, closer to i'll saythe flagpole, so closer that way.

(03:09:11):
It went down that way towards theflagpole, so closer. There's an arrow
in the front of your yard wherethere's black holes direct Yes. Now,
as far as when it moved,as far as the weather and the snow
was concerned, did you see anythingin relations to the roadway behind yesterday as
it once Did it move from thatinitial position to the ball black hole?

(03:09:33):
Yeah? I had noticed just sometracks in the snow indicating that the car
had moved up. Now, yourfriend Julie, did she take that ride
home with her brother Ryan at thattime? No, she came back in
the house, and as far asyour friends Julie and Sarah, there were

(03:09:54):
still at the house. On peoplefrom the waterfall came home. Do you
know how they happened to go homeon that particulating? Yes, my aunt
j J mccab and Matt McCabe drovethem home. And do you have any
idea about what time that was?M No, I'm not really I would
be guessing. I would say maybeone one something maybe. Now with respect

(03:10:16):
to your your sister Kate, whenyou and Kate it was the last person
to leave the home that evening exactcorrect, Yes, And were you awake
or downstairs? However, I don'tknow if I was downstairs when she actually
left, but I was down therefor a minute one day when she was
the last one president at the housewith my mom. And you know how

(03:10:37):
she was leaving the house that nightor how she was getting home. Yeah,
I believe her boyfriend was picking herout. What's your boyfriend's name,
Tristan Morris, Sir, If Icould turn your attention to the following morning,
at some point you go to bedand you know about what time there
was, I would say, Idon't know, late late one early two

(03:11:01):
o'clock in the morning, and yourbedroom is in the second floor of the
house, Yes, it is.And with respect to how many bedrooms are
up on the top color for Ibelieve, and with respect from your bedroom,

(03:11:24):
where was that in relation to thelayout, my bedroom would have been
the middle back of the house,so I had two windows, but they
were in the backyard of the houseor the middle with the backside. So
the two windows that from your bedroomface the backyard area. Yes, Now,
at any point in time after youwent up to your room, the

(03:11:48):
same question as before, was thereany noises or anything that drew your attention
outside of the home at any pointprior you waiting? You know, I
didn't hear anything. And if youknow about what time was it that you
woke up later on that morning inthe twenty nine I can't recall the exact
time. I'd say, maybe Iknow previous testimony, I may have said

(03:12:11):
earlier, but I don't believe itwas that early. I would say seven
thirty eight am. What was itthat woke grew up that morning? My
dad had knocked on my door andwithout anything specifically that you talk about following
that conversation, where did you go? I just threw on some clothes and

(03:12:31):
I went downstairs into the main firstfloor of the house. When you came
downstairs into the main first floor areaof the house, what are who if
anyone didn't see? Yeah, Sowhen I went down there, it was
my mom, my dad, myAuntie Jen, and my uncle Matt.
And about how long were you downin that area of the house, I

(03:12:54):
would say the first time I wentdown there, I would say I was
down there for maybe fifteen minutes orso. You said the first time you
went down whether it subsequent times afterthat? Well, yes, I went
back up into my room after Iwas down there the first time, and
then I came back downstairs, andat that point there was no one there
besides me and my parents, andthat second or subsequent time that she came

(03:13:16):
downstairs that morning. To know abouthow long it was after the first time,
I would say maybe an an hourand a half, two hours maybe.
Now with respects to your birthday,as far as what if any sort
of ritual or thing do you havewith regards to your aunt jus, Oh,
yes, so my aunt likes toget me donuts. It started I

(03:13:41):
don't even know, probably when Iwas like in middle school, because I
used to really like donuts, Soevery birthday she would give me six six
donuts in a box and a card, and that was just our ritual.
She would bring it over every dayevery time it was my birthday and made
you get So it was as faras the donuts in the card and everything.
At some point on that particular morning, Yes, I believe that when

(03:14:03):
I went downstairs the first time,the donuts in the card were there already,
so I had known that she hadcome by and dropped them off for
me. Did you physically actually seeyour aunt Julie on that particular morning?
No, I didn't see her then. H M all right, man approp

(03:14:26):
yes, h m hm. SoI'm gonna show you a seriously for photographs.
I just actually do what it goesto your okay, h And just

(03:15:00):
generally speaking, do you recognize what'sthe picking in those photographs? Yes,
this is my old residence old residentsat thirty four, he wrote that correctly.
Yes, and generally speaking, tokick it in those photographs is that
of the fair en act of portrayalof what the house looked like around that
time? Yes? Hey, approachagain, how multi seat you're introducing them,
is then nextport exhibit any objections,little ojection? Okay, h h,

(03:15:58):
thank you? They a return ofthe witness trump just in a place
before with now that marks it's seventyone seventy two and you're with the course
permission. I would ask that thosethree photographs were published in succession and this

(03:16:22):
filming if I could first have withtwo five nineties. So what's up on
the screen. Is that what youhave before you, as I believe it
should be exhibits seventy one? Probably, yes, that's the same. And
again just for the record, yourecognize what was the on screen? Now?
Yes, I do. Now beforeI get into the photograph, there

(03:16:45):
is one on the question that Imean asked as far as with respect to
the for the tenor and demeanor ofthat evening, how would you describe sort
of from when your friends were thereat the time that the folks came back
from the waterfall, how was sortof move then now cheerful fun, everyone
was having a great time. Anyfights and arguing, any tension anything else

(03:17:09):
that you need no prod of that, no, not at all. And
I believe so there should be alaser pointer on the desk arm buttons.
Hop, Yeah, that's you questionabout it with respective visions. Okay.
Now with regard to the fonts areaof your house thirty fourth thirty Road when

(03:17:30):
you live, there's basically stores onthe front of the house right, yes,
and if you could just use matelaisa born recorders attentions to wearing the
photographs each of those two. Okay, So this would be the first door
right here, and this is thesecond door, and the first door sort

(03:17:52):
of further away from the drive awayan area the wone. Yes, that's
the front door and the other doorwhere does that that? The side door
leads just right into the family room. And as far around this time January
on the seat hall, where werepeople sort of coming in and going out?

(03:18:13):
I don't know. I couldn't tellyou specifically. I think some people
use both doors. And what sortof the front door area actually it's sort
of one closer to the garages inthe living rooms that yes, the front
further aware? Does that mean that'slike a four yer area? And then

(03:18:35):
if you take a right it leadsyou to the dining room, kitchen and
then keep going into the family room. If you don't take a right and
go into the kitchen in the diningroom, the family room straight where does
that Well, you can't really gostraight if you walk into a little ways
to the left is a set ofstairs that go upstairs and a little and
you can go straight a little bitand then to your left again the stairs

(03:18:56):
that go downstairs into the basement.Now in addition, true you your mother
and your father is around the timein January as well. Yeah, we
had a dog, Chloe, Yes, but how long at that point we
had her for a few years.I don't know exactly how many years,

(03:19:16):
but a few years now on thatnight, specifically the January in this nine
hing as far as the wedding flowedout, anything like that. Yeah,
so yeah, sorry. So thedog was actually upstairs in my parents' bedroom.
She likes to sleep up there andstay up there, so she was

(03:19:37):
upstairs when my friends were downstairs.And at one point after my dad came
home, it was asked if someonelet the dog out, and I said,
sorry, I forgot because it wasmy responsibility because I was the only
one home. So he went upstairsto get the dog, got the dog,
brought her downstairs, let her outside. So when someone would let Chloe

(03:20:01):
outside around this time to describe thatprocess as far as would be at leisure.
Yeah, so we had a fencedin backyard, so we just kind
of mutter through the back door andopened the door and she was able to
run around out back. Webber letherround with the stay at the back.
Yeah, we stay around the kitchenarea. Yeah, and miss Gilman,

(03:20:22):
if I could have the next photoup on the screen two five nine three,
and so the next exhibit to benumber seventy two is that up home
madreams that would you have a fouryears er? Yes, Now you could
regard to this photograph. I'm we'rementioning something above a black hole near the
front yard that right, Yeah,using that lady, good recordur attention r

(03:20:43):
I yea. Now with respect tothis photograph and stuff on the screen right
now his natals Rother Bryan, wherewas you could record Duri's attempt to where
about about he? He would havebeen more this way so the photo doesn't

(03:21:03):
show you all, but he wouldhave been more in front of the driveway
over here. And that first timethat you looked up when you where star,
I believe that was right around themailbox area right about right here and
again second time that you looked out, and where it was more down this

(03:21:26):
way on the side of the road. If you know what you're talking about
the kitchen, well, yes,I do. Those are about right those
two right there, the last photographfrom that set you have now, Yes,

(03:21:56):
and this is another photograph home takingaround the planet. Yes. And
as far as the black hole inthis particular area that's off the last time
of the screens, I broke yesin between the time that you saw that

(03:22:18):
darksv that you didn't really recognize inthe mail off and then further down seated
any other points moving along, No, I just caught it as it was
had already moved By the time Ilooked out the window. I noticed that
it had moved up and facing thesame direction as I broke yes side it

(03:22:39):
was facing your house. Yeah.And as far as the dark VUV was
concerned, at any point in timethat you look out, we can not
see the dark No. I didn'tlook out the window again, So the
rest of the evening you didn't lookup. Now in the rotments, its
time expired between the time that yousaw it in the area the box time

(03:23:03):
when you saw it over by theplatform. You have any idea how long
period I would say probably within acouple of minutes. It wasn't a long
period of time that I looked outthe window. And as far as you
know, your friend Julie, whohad gone out to the pickup truck to
talk to her brother Ryan, wasshe still outside around the time that you
looked out the second She could havebeen. I am not sure if she

(03:23:26):
was at that point, but shecould have been. And this you can
take it. I have just onemoment on yes, it is best,
just a couple of questions with regardto that morning when you woke up your

(03:23:52):
father was at your door. Yes, as far as from what you could
see of this person, what ifany injuries or anything did you observe on
his person on my father? Nothingnow at that time January twenty eighth and
January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two. Did you know anybody by the name

(03:24:13):
John Old? I knew of thename, but I didn't know him personally.
Know And when you say knew ofthe name or he knew of him?
How I knew he was friendly withmy auntie Jane McCabe, and his
niece was friendly with my cousin Jen'sdaughter, and as far as your cousins,

(03:24:35):
as far as Ms. McCabe's daughters, what if anything did what if
any sort of relationships did you havewith them specific to them beyond sort of
your other cousins. Oh yeah,so for a while, I think when
I was in college or maybe theend of high school, I would help
out because there was four girls,so they always had like multiple sports going
on and stuff, So I woulddrive them to and front practices or be

(03:24:56):
there after school if JJ had tobe somewhere. So I spent a good
amount of time with them and basicallybabysitting, but more just driving around and
stuff like that through them. Isthat how you came to know mister o'keefs
use Cayley. Yes, and yougave her rise to places as well.
Yeah, occasionally when she would comeback to the house after school, driver
to CCD or whatever. And hadyou ever met to your recollection, John

(03:25:20):
O'Keefe or anybody by the name ofKaren Reid prior to January twenty eight John
o'keeff, No, I mean Icould have. He could have came into
the house once when I was thereat my aunt Jjy's house and we could
have said hi, but I don'tremember formally meeting him. And I never
met Karen Reid either, And onthat evening again January twenty eighty or the
early morning of January twenty ninth,beyond people that you've already talked about,

(03:25:41):
and specifically John o'keef or Karen Reid, either of them at any more time
come inside your house while you werethere? Then? No, never,
I think earlier. I'm just gonnapull you up one minute. I think
we probably need Yeah, there wedo. I don't know if I'm going

(03:26:05):
to be the best speller, butI'll try, all right. I think
that's good. That's the nice one, is correct? You of them?
All right? Thank you, youso thank you guys. Mister Albert.

(03:26:26):
The first time you ever spoke withanyone from the Massachusetts State Police, the
camp Police Department, or the NorfolkCounty District Attorney's Office was on July sixth,
twenty twenty three. Correct, Yes, I believe, so that's a
full eighteen months after mister Akey stepcorrect. Yes, who was present for
that? I spoke with two troopers, I believe, and my lawyer Trooper

(03:26:54):
Proctor was there. Yes, andthis interview actually took place at your family's
defense attorney's office. Correct, chectionon the objectious interview took place at your
attorney's office. Correct. Yes,Your sister Caitlin Albert was also present.
Correct, she was there for sometime, and she wasn't when we when

(03:27:16):
I was just when we had itwhen I was interviewing, she wasn't in
the room with me. Now,and that was also the first time they
had spoken with your sister as wellabout these events. Correct objection. And
to be clear, the Massachusetts StatePolice only interviewed you after you were called
to testify before a gran injury jection. Correct, Obs. I want to

(03:27:41):
direct your attention to your testimony regardingyour cousin, Colin Albert. You testified
today that Colin Albert called you tocome to the house. Corrects. I
believe so he did. Yeah.Do you recall some prior testimony in which
you said that you all had exchangedsnapchats about what you were doing that night
the house. No, I don'tbelieve I said that. I said.

(03:28:03):
For him to know that I wasat the house, he could have seen
a snapchat that I had sent,but he didn't ask me on snapchat if
he can come over? I saidmore of that. He had could have
seen a Snapchat saying that we wereat my house. That's how he knew,
because I didn't know how he knewthat we were there. You and
your cousins frequently communicate on Snapchat?Correct occasionally here and there? Do you

(03:28:28):
actually have a cousin group chat onSnapchat? Don't you? Yeah? We
do an Albert cousin group chat.Who else is on that snapchat? There's
all my cousins, a lot ofus, A good amount of my cousins.
You Alan McCabe, No, she'son an Albert. Do you have
a group chat in which Alan McCabeis a member? I believe we have

(03:28:52):
a cousin cousins on my mom's sidegroup chat, Yes, but she wouldn't
be in that group chat with Colin. No, understood. And do you
still have any of the messages youexchanged with your cousin on January twenty eighth,
I don't know what do you?Can you rephrase the question? Do
you have any of those Snapchat messagesor other messages that you exchanged with your
cousin Colin Albert on January twenty eight. No, I'm not even sure if

(03:29:16):
there was any messages not to myknowledge, I don't know. Thanks mister
Albert. You testified that Colin arrivedaround ten forty five or eleventh correct today?

(03:29:37):
I said that, yes, yes, Who else was at the house
when the fox struck sort of midnightas it was came your birthday? When
it hit my birthday? It wasjust Colin, Julie Nagel, and Sarah
Levinson. Was there any sort ofcelebration for your birthday when the clock struck
midnight? No? What were youguys doing? We were just sitting there.

(03:30:00):
Probably happy birthdays were exchange, butit was nothing crazy. I'm not
a big birthday person like that.And where in the house were you guys
at that in the dining room area. You testified that your parents and Brian
Higgins arrived shortly after midnight of yoursister. Yeah, I believe, I
said around twelve or five twelve tenin that area. Describe what happened when

(03:30:22):
they came into the country house side. They all just walked in the door
and at that point my cousin,Colin was standing up to leave. They
passed each other, said hi andthat was it, Mistrobert, You never
actually observed calling in vehicle from thirtyfour fair? Correct? No, I
didn't see it with my eyes now. In fact, you said you've only

(03:30:45):
looked out the window two times thatway. Correct, Yes, that's true.
Approximately what time did your dad goupstairs to get Klothe to take her
out? Well, that would havebeen like as soon as he got home,
around like a little after twelve.So would that have been before or
after Colin sort of walked towards thedoor. Colin had already walked towards I

(03:31:07):
already left at that point. Wheredid your dad go? He went upstairs
into his bedroom where Chloe was there, brought her downstairs and went to the
back door and let her out.And you were asked by mister Lally if
your father kind of stands by thedoor and waits for Chloe before if he
lets her. Yeah, but youtestified that he was just generally in the

(03:31:30):
kitchen area. Yeah, the kitchenis by the back door, but he's
not standing by the doorway. Orshe's an awfuleech jock. She can go
out do her business and you canopen the door sometime later. Can you
answer that corrupt? Could you sayit again, please. Your father wasn't
standing by the door staring at Chloethe entire time she was outside, correct,

(03:31:52):
No, I would not the wholetime. No earlier that Julie Nagel
went outside to speak with her brotherto indicate that she no longer needed a
ride. Do you ever call thattestimony? I'm not sure if I said
that exactly, But yeah, canyou describe for what you saw the first

(03:32:13):
time you looked out the window.I just saw a little in front of
the driveway A little bit, Isaw a truck. I saw my friend
Julie at the passenger door I supposedtalking to the people in the truck,
And a little ways up I sawanother dark suv that I wasn't aware of.
And so you'd agree that there wasnothing obstructing the view between the truck
and the dark suv. Correct.Well, not from my vantage point.

(03:32:37):
No. And the second time youlooked out the window, the only difference
he saw was that Miss Reid's vehiclehad pulled up. Correct. Well,
I didn't know it was Miss Read'svehicle, but a car that was there
had moved up, Yes, andthe truck was no longer there. Correct.
The second time I looked out thewindow that I'm not sure if wait

(03:32:58):
refresher recollection to take a get yourtestimony? Sure from July six, twenty
twenty I'm sorry May eighteenth, twentytwenty three. Yeah, for sure,

(03:33:24):
Yes, So show mister Lowe youcould just look at this and you can
look up when you're a recollection isrefreshed. Okay, yep? Is that
refresh your recollection as to what youtestified to sure, Yes on May eighteenth,

(03:33:46):
twenty twenty three. Yes. Isn'tit true that you said that the
second time you looked out you sawthat there was a black SUV that had
pulled forward. Yes, but thetruck was no longer there. Sure it
seems like I said that then.Yes. You also testified earlier that you
saw tire tracks in the snow corects. Yep, where were those tracks just

(03:34:09):
along the along the side towards wheretowards the driveway, along this way going
up towards the flagpole, and youview those tracks kind of leading up towards
the flagpole. Correct. Yes,so you'd agreed invisibility and lighting in front
of the house was good enough thatyou were able to see tire tracks in
the snow. Sure, but youdid not see a two hundred and twenty

(03:34:33):
pound man lying in the snow inyour front yard. To you, O,
jesh, is that something that yousaw? So, no, I
didn't see that. Who was inthe house the second time that you looked
out the window there would have beenmy mom, my dad, Brian Higgins,
my sister Julie, Sarah, uncleMatt, Mister Albert. You testified

(03:34:58):
on May eighteen, twenty twenty three, in another grand jury and you said,
I'm not sure if Brian Higgins wasstill there. I know he left
at some point. Do you recallthat testimony? Yeah, I know he
left my house at some point.I just don't know exactly what it was.
You were asked specifically at the timethat you looked out the window who
was there, and you said,I'm not sure if Brian Higgins was there.

(03:35:20):
Isn't that correct? Okay? IfI said that, yes, because
I was not sure. I'm stillnot sure that if he was there or
not. So you're not sure whetherBrian Higgins was there when you looked out
the window, correct, No,I'm not sure. You have no independent
recollection as you sit here today wheremister Higgins was when you looked out the
window. Correct. No, youalso didn't recall mister Higgins ever saying goodbye

(03:35:46):
to you or your groom. Correct. I believe that true. Yeah.
In fact, you actually testified beforeanother grand jury on May eighteen, twenty
twenty three, that at some pointmister Higgins just wasn't there anymore. I
must have gone to the bathroom orsomething. I came back and I said
where did Higgins go? And hewas? They said you left? Sure?

(03:36:07):
Yes, you also testified before thatgreat injection you are. Yeah,
I'm going to see you at Tibirdif you could bring that. Please,

(03:36:28):
When did your father leave? Inrelation to Brian Haiggens leave you mean like
go upstairs, go to bed,or leave your view? He would have
left after Brian Higgins had gone,mister Albert, isn't it true that you
weren't quite so sure about that whenyou testified on the eighteenth, twenty twenty
three. I don't know. Youwould have to show me. Do you

(03:36:50):
have a specific recollection of your fatherleaving after mister Higgins was? Yeah,
I'm pretty sure he went upstairs afterBrian Higgins left. Mister Albert, I'd

(03:37:13):
like to show you. I'm righthere, Okay, all right, m
hm mister Albert, isn't it truethat you told the grand jury I'm pretty

(03:37:33):
sure mister Higgins left first before mydad went upstairs, because he wouldn't have
left if his friend was still there. Yes, I just said that here
as well. You don't have anyspecific recollection as you sit here today where
your father was or where mister Higginswas when you looked out the window that
night. No, No, that'snot true. I know that my father

(03:37:54):
was in the room with us.I'm saying I don't know. I'm saying
I don't know when Brian Higgins leftthe house, and when I Higgins left
the house, then my father wentupstairs into his bedroom. But what you
actually said was quote, I'm prettysure mister Higgins left first before my dad
went upstairs, because he wouldn't haveleft if his friend was still there.
Correct. I see what you're saying. Yes, but I still say that

(03:38:18):
my dad wouldn't have went upstairs untilBrian Higgins left the house. Right,
And that's based on an assumption.Correct. Sure? Yeah, you were
envied about this case until eighteen monthslater. Correct, Yeah, you did
not personally observe your father go upstairs. Correct, No, I did I
watch him go up the stairs.I was standing by the I was in
the kitchen. You can see thestairs right there, your tuestimonies. You

(03:38:41):
can see individuals walk upstairs in yourhouse. Depending on which, yes,
the dining room from the dining roomI met. There's actually a wall that
kind of blocks the dining room thestairs. Not if you're sitting at the
two chairs with your back to thewindows. If I sitting in the chair

(03:39:01):
right here, the stairs would beright here. I could easily see it's
through the through the doorway. Butas you sit here today, you don't
know what time that happened. No, I don't know the time. No,
mister Abbert, I'd like to directyour attention to the morning of January.

(03:39:22):
Can you describe sort of how youwoke up that morning? My dad
just knocked on my door, andI woke up and opened the door.
You didn't hear any dog parking.No, you didn't see any emergency vehicles.
No, didn't hear any ambulances.No, I didn't hear any screaming
outside. No. What did youdo once you woke up? I went

(03:39:45):
downstairs? Did you ever look outthe window. I don't recall if I
did or not. Would it refreshyour recollections to take your look at your
grandeury testimony? Sure? Sure,thank you, A mister Lawley would pain

(03:40:11):
it's land say two twelve? Thankyou? Okay, yep? Is your
recollection refreshed? Sure? Yeah?Why didn't you look out the window that
morning? Well? I say herethat I just would give me anxiety to

(03:40:33):
look out the window. Is therea reason that you didn't want to look
outside? I'm just an anxious personand I got overwhelmed. I think most
people would be overwhelmed in that situation. Did you say that this was kind
of a new thing for you forcops and police to be at the house.
Yeah, that's never happened before.I've never had cops at or me
in my house. And it madeyou overwhelmed. Fact, yeah, I

(03:40:56):
get overwhelmed easy. So, misterRobert, that's the case with members of
your family before you spoke to theMassachusettstate Police. I don't have an answer
for that. I don't know howmany times hundreds we talked about it.
Pretty decent, I mean, considering, Yeah, what members of your family

(03:41:18):
have you discussed this, my parents, my sister occasionally, my aunt JJ
and uncle Matt. Hundreds of conversations. Well, I guess, I guess
you can. I mean you'd haveto split up and quantify what conversations were

(03:41:39):
about the actual case and what conversationshave been the harassment we've faced since then.
And all of these discussions took placewith you and members of your family
prior to your interview with the MassachusettsState Police. Correct, and No,
we've talked since then. Need tospeak with them about this case. I

(03:42:03):
don't know what you mean by thiscase, this case meaning the actual case
at hand, or just the caseabout the harassment we faced. I'm talking
about what happened on January twenty eighthand January twenty nine. There's yeah,
but there's really nothing to talk aboutabout those specific snow, because we have
nothing to say about that. Weweren't part of it. Mister Robert,

(03:42:24):
you looked out the window multiple timeson January twenty nine, correct, twice?
I think I said. You neverheard any sort of commotion outside.
No, you never heard screaming,yelling for the screech of brakes in the
front yard. No, you neversaw a two hundred and twenty pounds man

(03:42:45):
in dark clothes in the white snowon your front lawn. Nope, but
you did see those time of tracks. I did no further questions than sally
don't reader right Jahn direcord also allthank you, thanks, thanks, ye

(03:43:13):
know, yes call call miss CaitlinAlbert to this dame. Kay m m

(03:43:58):
m hmmah steps watch to step onstep right up orange right hand you samos
right the other say of the court, and during the case there here in
truth, the truth, the wholetruth, and nothing but the truth.
So help you, thank you,go ahead, thank you, Good afternoon,

(03:44:37):
Good afternoon. Would you please stateyour name in spell your last name?
Sure, Caitlin Albert, C AI T L I N A L
B E R T. And wheredo you live now? I live in
Easton? And how long have youlived about three years? What any one
do you live there? I livewith Tristan Morris, my boyfriend, and

(03:45:01):
you and miss Morris. About howlong have you lived here? Almost eight
years now? Prior to living inEaston, where was it that you lived
before that? I lived in Canton? And specifically where in Canton did you
live? Thirty four Fairview Road andHow long was it that you lived at
thirty four jeez? I lived therefrom about two thousand and eleven to twenty

(03:45:28):
twenty one. And that was afamily home, is that right? Yes?
And who did you live at thirtyfourth room? My mom, my
dad, and my four siblings.And your mom's name is the Pole is
that right? Yes? And yourdad or your father's name is Brian Albert?
Yes? And how many siblings doyou have on? I have four?

(03:45:50):
Are you the oldest? I am? And do you work for I
do? What do you do for? I work for the Massachusetts Attorney General's
Office in the Medicaid Fraud Division.And how long have you been doing that?
Almost three years? I think inSeptember it will be three years.

(03:46:11):
I would I could can turn yourattention to January twenty eighth, twenty twenty
two, January twenty ninth. Yourecall that time, Frank, I do?
And you re call what days ofthe weekday? I actually am not
sure that I recall the exact daysof the week. Maybe Friday or Saturday?

(03:46:31):
Fair to say around the weekend time? Yeah? Weekend definitely. And
as far as your family is interms the twenty nine, what if any
significance is that that would be mybrother's birthday? And which of your brothers
was which of your brothers is hisbirthday Brian Albert Junior? And is beyond

(03:46:58):
Brian I Junior? Just or sakeof my own lack of confusion, is
there some other name that you wouldcall him as far as differentiating him between
the bobs little Brian sometimes even thoughhe's not so little. And so during
the course of that week, sortof leading up through the weekend, what

(03:47:20):
if any discussions did you have withyour mother or anybody else in your family
in regard to O'Brien. So,leading up to that weekend, I was
aware that my brother might have likea friend or two over the house for
his birthday, And then I hadspoken with my mom and my aunt Julie
Albert about maybe going to a localcanton bar, grabbing some food and some

(03:47:46):
drinks and just kind of seeing wherethe night takes us, and then maybe
ultimately going back and seeing my brotherfor just to say happy birthday, kind
of end the night that way.As the week went along, what if
anything sort of affected or changed theplans? Reference Nothing that I can really

(03:48:07):
think of, nothing really changed.I mean that was sort of I don't
remember exactly how the plan came aboutthat we were going to, you know,
go get food and that my brotherwas going to have friends over,
but I believe that that was alwayssort of our plan. And so specifically
on the twenty eighth, at somepoint you came to camp correct, yes,

(03:48:31):
And you recall how you came toCanton and where was it that you
went first, So I can't sayfor sure. I from what I remember,
I believe that my boyfriend, Tristanand I went straight from Easton to
the waterfall and actually got there beforemy mom and my aunt Julie from what

(03:48:56):
I can remember, and then heurt, my mom and Julie ended up meeting
us there and that's when we sortof started just kind of like hanging out,
ordering food and some drinks, andwe were there for a little bit,
just the four of us. Andyou recall about what time it was
that you got to the waterfall.Unfortunately I can't remember an exact time,

(03:49:18):
but it would have been around likedinner time, so if I had to
guess, maybe like six. Andas far as drinking was concerned with that
night, you're at a bar andyou weren't driving correctly? Oh yeah,
no, I was not driving.And you were called specifically what kind of
drinks you how to what you hadto drink that night. I believe that
night I was drinking white Claw,I think. And your boyfriend was Morris.

(03:49:43):
As far as what if anything wasgoing wrong with in that night,
as far as how long was heat to walk? Yeah, so we
were aware that it was likely goingto snow that night. So my boyfriend,
Tristan had gotten gotten offered to dosome like plowing or shoveling, so

(03:50:03):
he knew that he was going tohave to probably be up for the majority
of the night into the morning doingsome shoveling. So he didn't stick around
at the waterfall for too long.I think he had some food, maybe
like one or two drinks, andthen he actually ended up going home.
And you stayed at the waterfall afterhe went home. I stayed there,

(03:50:24):
yeah, with my mom and myaunt Julie. And if you recall as
far as that evening at the waterfall, what if anything was going on as
far as like live entertainment. Iwant to say that there might have been
a band. I just don't wantto say for sure. But I think
I do recall a band coming inand setting up, and yeah, I

(03:50:45):
think that there might have been onenow as far as as evening regrets and
went on. If anyone else cameinto the waterfall and joined your group,
sure, So I can't say forsure like times of people arriving or order
of people arriving, but I knowat one point my uncle Chris Albert he

(03:51:09):
ended up joining us. He ownsa pizza shop across the street, so
when he was done working, hecame and joined us, and then my
aunt Jen McCabe and her husband MattMcCabe joined us, and then at some
point my father, Brian Albert,and his friend Brian Higgins also joined us.

(03:51:31):
So at one point in time,I'm not sure the order of which,
you know, everybody came in,or the time that they came in,
but at some point we were allkind of there hanging out. Now
and your father and mister Higgins,do you know where where they had come
from or where they were coming from? Yes, I believe they were coming
from New York from a funeral.And I remember I had asked my mom,

(03:51:54):
like his dad going to stop by, and she was like, I
don't know, he's tired. Youknow, he's coming back from New York,
and I was like, I wantto see him, So I think
I convinced him to come, andthen Brian Higgins just kind of tagged along.
From what I can remember now,as far as mister Higgins was concerned,
is that's someone that you were familiarwith prior to this evening of the
twenty eight I knew of him andI had met him a couple of times,

(03:52:16):
but nothing more than that as faras you're aware. The house that
you for lack of regretter term grewup in ter Spence some form of years.
And had mister Higgins ever been overto that house after your book there
of you when you were there,not that I know of now, at

(03:52:37):
some point later in the evening,if anyone else came and sort of came
off to your group going read theworld. So from what I can remember,
I remember sitting at like a hightop table and it was me and
my mom sitting next to each other, and we were facing like the front

(03:52:58):
door of the waterfall, and Irecall a man and a woman walking in
and at first I didn't know whoeither of them were, but I noticed
that the man started talking to likesome of my aunts and uncles that I
was with, and he seemed friendlywith the people that were in our group.
So I had said to my momlike, oh, who is that

(03:53:18):
and she said, Oh, that'sJohn O'Keeffe. And I had known of
him because I knew his story abouthis niece and his nephew and his family.
So I had known of him,but had never met him before.
And so then I and I justassumed that the woman that was with him

(03:53:41):
was his significant other girlfriend wife.I didn't. I didn't know, So
then, yeah, I didn't reallyspeak to either of them. I think
at one point John came up tome and my mom and asked like,
do you guys need anything? Doyou need a drink? And we said
no, And that was pretty much. And so when you say you,

(03:54:03):
John O'Keefe for the story as yourelated, do you recall how it was
that you came to know anything aboutmister Okeith was that you know about well,
in general, it was kind oflike a known thing, you know,
the tragedy of what happened in theO'Keefe family, And so I had

(03:54:26):
just kind of heard that story andthen On top of that, John O'Keeffe's
niece is either the same age oraround the same age as some of my
younger cousins, so I knew thatshe was friendly with them. I knew
that my aunt Jen McCabe would likehelp out here and there, going to
sports, going to different events whatever. I know that my aunt Jen was

(03:54:50):
friendly with John O'Keefe, and Iknew that my aunt Julie and Uncle Chris
were somewhat friends with him as well. And just to be clear, when
you're talking about some of your youngercousins, the younger cousins or speaking of
who were their parents. So yeah, So the younger cousins that I'm referring
to would be the McCabe girls,and their parents are Jen mcab and Matt
McCabe, and they were president atthe Waterfall that evening as well. Jen

(03:55:13):
and Matt ware. Yes. Now, with reference to mister o'keith and and
his significant others that you described,had you ever met them prior to that
evening? I had not. Notto my knowledge. I wouldn't be surprised
if there was maybe like a sportingevent or something where we, you know,
so I met each other in passing. But I had never formally met

(03:55:37):
John or the woman that he waswith and so on that evening in January
twenty eighth, he had never met, nor were you aware of anybody by
the name of Karen No, Iwas not. And if you know,
about what time was it that theycame into the waterfall and came over,
I can't say for sure. Ijust I'm not sure time. I'm fair

(03:56:01):
to say to the other people thatyou've testified about as far as rumples uron
and things like that, were theyall there at the time? And Miss
I believe so. I believe thateveryone who was there in the group that
I was with was present when JohnO'Keefe and currently derived. And about what
time was it that things started towind down as far as the waterfalls,

(03:56:26):
Again, I'm the worst with times, but I would say it was around
like twelve ish that we kind ofsaid, you know, let's kind of
head out and head home. Iwould say twelve ish approximately. Now,
during the quart of the time asyou were at the waterfall, either before

(03:56:46):
or after, Miss Joe Keeth andRed Robed, how would you describe sort
of the mood or the demeanor ofthe group that you were. I mean,
I didn't notice any issues or anynegative things happening. All the conversations
seemed positive, lighthearted. Everyone wasjust kind of having a good time getting

(03:57:07):
along. I didn't notice anything outof the ordinary. Really, I no
issues as far as fighting or tensionbetween your group? Is that correct?
Correct? And as far as yousaw as regards to mister Keith, and
this read no issues as far asfighting or attention that you observed, that

(03:57:28):
not that I observed. And whenyou around twelve or so, when you
started to leave, who is itthat? How did you come to leave?
And who did you leave with?So I left with my mom and
my dad. And again I'm notsure the order of when, like everybody

(03:57:48):
else left, but I went withmy mom and my dad back to thirty
four fair of You road. Andif you call who drove home from the
waterfall to thirty four three my dad? And about how long a drive is
that from from the waterfall, Iwould say like five or six minutes,
give or take. And when youarrived to the house at thirty fourth fair

(03:58:13):
of You, do you recall yourwhere your father parked the relations in the
house. From what I can remember, he parked in the driveway, yeah,
the driveway. And if you knowabout how many other cars were we're
in the driveway and when the parkI'm not sure. I know there was
at least like one or two,but I can't say for sure. I

(03:58:35):
just don't really remember how many we'rein the driveway at the time. I
had like younger siblings in college atthe time who would sometimes take some of
the cars, So I just don'tremember for sure. And if you know,
essentially they're within the driveway, there'sa garage driveway, is that correct?
Yes, door on the left,door on the right, is that

(03:58:56):
right? Yes? And do yourecall whether or not your father hold in
the driveway and the side of theright side, I don't remember. And
when you came into the house,do you remember how it was that you
came from the vehicles to that Yes. From what I remember, I went
in the front door, so Iwould have gotten out and walked on the
brick path over to the front doorarea, walked up the steps, and

(03:59:22):
then walked through the door that entersinto like a foyer area. And just
to be clear, sort of whenyou walk into that front door with the
four year area, what if anything'sright in front. So when I first
walked in, I actually had seenmy cousin Colin. He was standing in
the foyer area, and I rememberI said to him like, oh hi,

(03:59:43):
what are you doing. Next question, not what you said to me
taking you back through sort of whenyou're exiting the waterfall and when you're exiting
your parent's vehicle and walking in thehouse, What if anything did you observe
as far as the weather at thatI remember at that point snow was definitely
coming down, and I could tellthat it was like progressively getting worse as

(04:00:07):
you walk into the home. Inthe front foyer area, that's where you
went into your your cousin Colin.Yes, how is Colin related to you
as far as how is he yourcousin? So Colin is Julie Albert and
Chris Albert's son, so he's myfirst cousin. And when you walk in,

(04:00:28):
you sort of bumped into him.Where where was it that he was?
He told me that he was headedwhere to my knowledge, he was
going home late. Next question,from the time that you walked in and
bumped into Colin sort of in thefour year at home, how long was
it that he was in the homewhile you were, I would say how

(04:00:54):
long was he in the minutes?M And from your group this includes yourself,
from mother, your father is likerest sorry? What was that?
From your group when you enter thehome, that includes you and your mother
and your father. Yes, andif anyone else in the waterfall arrived at

(04:01:15):
your home around the same time asyourself, the mother and you father.
I believe that Brian Higgins was thenext to arrive. I think he very
shortly after came inside after myself,my mom and dad. And so when
mister Higgins comes into your the houseof thirty fourth fair of you, are

(04:01:35):
you already in the house. Iwas already inside, yess. And so
you have any idea what mister Higginswas driving that evening or where you parking?
I do not. And then onceyou come into the house at some
well, when you come into thehouse, where is it within the home
that you build? So I walkedin through the foyer and then I took

(04:01:56):
a right turn which leads into likedining room area, and that's where my
brother Brian and two of his friendswere just sitting around the dining room table.
So I said happy birthday to him. And was just kind of hanging
out in there for a little bit. And the friends that you observed in
that sort of kitchen dying area,the friends of your brother Brian bog what

(04:02:20):
were their names, Sarah Levinson andJulie Nagel. And were those people that
you were familiar with priors in Januarytwenty eight, Yes, familiar with them
as their friends of the little Book, Yes, exactly. And with regard
to with regard to the house afterfelt your mother and father arrived with them,

(04:02:41):
mister Higgins, after that with anyoneelse from the waterfall came to the
house, my aunt Jen and myuncle Matt McKay. And when your aunt
Jen and your uncle Matt cab arrived, where was calm Colin had left by
then? Okay, I believe alot. And when mister and missus or

(04:03:03):
your uncle and you're on the cadecome in, where is it did they
go with? I believe they dida similar thing. They either entered through
the dining room or through the kitchenarea. But the dining room in the
kitchen are like open floor kind ofall the same room. So we were
just all kind of hanging out inthat area. And if you know about

(04:03:24):
how how long a period of timewere you at your parents' house at on
Fairview Road. That is, Iwould say our forty five latest, like
latest two hours, but around likean hour and a half an hour forty
five. Yeah, I can't sayfor sure. It's an estimate. And

(04:03:46):
for the balance of the time thatyou were there when you're in that same
sort of kitchen dining room area,yes, And what is it that you
were doing as far as you andthe group doing in that area? We
were just kind of hanging out.Remember that my mom had grabbed like a
small speaker and put some music on. We had a couple of drinks and

(04:04:07):
everyone was just kind of like havinga good time hanging out. We said
happy birthday to Brian, and thatwas kind of it, and cele at
any point in time when you werewe didn't Well, let me ask you

(04:04:28):
this first, as far as thesort of demeanor removed within the house,
similar to how I would asked youat the waterfall, Did any of that
change once you returned back to yourparents' house to every road, No,
so everyone getting along, no arguments, no tension anything, correct, ye,
Now, beyond the people that you'vejust described, did anyone else come

(04:04:52):
into your house, into your parents'house that evening while you No, and
specifically mister o'keith and or his significantother, at any point in time while
you were there, did they comeinto that No, neither of them ever
came into the home. Now,with regard to the people that you were
describing before, at any point intime did the people in the kitchen dining

(04:05:16):
n area that any of them leavethat area? Now, I think when
when my mom, my dad,and I first got there, I believe
my dad went upstairs to grab thedog to let her out, so so
yeah, so he did that,and then I think there was another period
of time where my dad might havebeen showing or maybe my mom or my

(04:05:41):
dad were showing Brian Higgins, likefamily photos photos of one of my brothers
who's in the Marines, so inthat would have been in the family room
area, which still is like theresan open doorway, so it's not like
the door was shut or anything.But other than that, we all kind
of stayed within that dining room kitchenvicinity. Now, with reference to the

(04:06:09):
dog that was a family dog,is I rank yes, and your family
had the dog when you still livedat Road with your parents. Yes,
And what was the dog's name,Chloe? And with respect to letting the
dog out, can you describe tothe jury sort of what that process entailed.
Was it on a leash or howwas the dog you let sure?
So we had like a fenced inbackyard and we had a back door,

(04:06:31):
so we would just kind of openthe back door, let her out.
She would kind of do her thing, and then she would come back in
when she was done, and yourfather took care of that when they got
home to the waterfall that evening.Yes, the family room that you were
talking about where your father and oryour mother and mister Higgins were. As
far as the photographs, where isthat in relation to the dining kitchen,

(04:06:54):
dining room kitchen area and specifically canyou see into that area from the dining
room kitchen the family room. Yes, So there's just sort of like a
it's like a doorway, but there'sno door there. It's pretty open and
if you're standing in the dining roomor the kitchen, you can see into
the family room for the most part. Now you at that point, we're
not living at the address on fairView Road, is that right correct?

(04:07:18):
And as far as the people thatwere at the house did not live at
Fairview Home that on that night.Who was the last person? I was
the last person to leave. Andprior to your departure from the house sometime
our forty five or so after yougot there, can you describe the order
in which the other people that youjust described were there? What order is

(04:07:41):
those I don't remember the order inwhich everybody left, but I do remember
that Sarah Levinson, Julie Nagel,my aunt Jen, and my uncle Matt,
they all left in one are andthen Brian Higgins left, But I

(04:08:05):
just don't remember the order in whichit was, probably within like a couple
of minutes of each other, butI just don't remember remember exactly who left
first, and then I left prettyshortly after everyone else as well. Now,
during the time that you were hangingout in that dining room kitchen area
of the home, at any pointin time that you was your attention drawn

(04:08:28):
to the outside of the house oranything see anything outside of the house?
I did not. And with respectto the front area of the house at
any point in time, was thereany discussion that you recall about anything going
on? I don't recall a discussiongoing on about anything happening out front,

(04:08:50):
except for at one point I letme hear her first, except for what
at one point? At one pointpoint, I remember that Julie Nagel's brother
was supposed to pick her up,so I knew that there was some communication
where she told him, never mind, you don't need to pick me up.

(04:09:11):
You can go home. I'm goingto go home with Jen and Matt.
With respect to your aunt, Jennifer, Jennifer McCay, what if anything
do you recall for doing with doyou call her having a cell phone that
night? I do, And whatif anything do you her doing with respect
to myself? I remember at onepoint we were standing in the kitchen and

(04:09:35):
I had noticed she was on thephone, and I remember she said something
to the effect of like, ohokay, So next question. At some
point did you see her talking onthe home? I did? And at
some point did you see her periodI'm not sure about texting. I definitely
saw her speaking with somebody on thephone, though, And at some point

(04:10:00):
where did she put her phone inrelation to where you guys were in the
kitchen and back, I'm not surerecall any sort of charger or anything like
that in that area at the moment, I don't that was far who picked

(04:10:20):
you up from the house on thatMy boyfriend and miss Morris came to thousand
Therapy Road and picked you up atsome point by now fory five minutes or
so after you arrived. There isthat correct? Yes? Call what miss
Morris was driving on actory? Iremember that he actually was driving my car,

(04:10:45):
which is a twenty nineteen white JeepCherokee. And what kind of car
did miss Morris have at that time? Called? At that time he had
a very old I want to say, like twenty twelve Ford tour So that's
why he took my car because thetourist wouldn't have been good in the snow.
And how was it that you cantody all? You text you?

(04:11:09):
How did you know that he wasin I believe that we texted, and
that's how I was informed that hewas out front. They received a text
something if I hear it, thenyou go outside? Yes, And when
you went outside, if you recallwhat was the weather like when you were

(04:11:31):
coming out of When I walked outside, I remember again the snow was coming
down a lot. I remember likesort of trying to watch my step because
the stairs in the brick path werepretty snowy and I didn't want to slip.
So as far as weather, Iremember it was actively snowing and I

(04:11:52):
was trying not to slip. Andthat's that's pretty much what I can remember.
And you recall where it was saidto your boyfriend, is Morrise parked
car in relation to the house?When he write, I believe he parked
in the driveway, so you wouldhave come down the steps, down the
walkway through the driveway area, correct? Yes? And who drove from Fairview

(04:12:13):
Road through back home? Then Tristandead? Now if you were called when
missus Morris, I'm assuming backside ofthe driveway. Is that corrected? When
he backs out of the driveway,where does the vehicle go in a relation
of ours? We went up FairviewRoad, so towards the flag pole in

(04:12:39):
our in our yard, and sotowards the flag hole with the passenger side
facing the house as I write,Yes, And if you recall if mister
Morris is driving away from the home, what if anything with respect to the
weather did he have to employ withinthe car? I remember the wind child
wipers were on, and I rememberhe was driving very cautiously ten and two,

(04:13:05):
And I remember thinking to myself,Oh, the snow is coming down
pretty hard. And as you drovepast the house, were you looking outside
or looking at the house or thefront lawn area at home? I was
not. Once I got inside thecar, I was mainly my attention was
on him and we were having aconversation. So I hadn't been looking out

(04:13:30):
the passenger window towards my house atat really any point. So you had
returned towards your boyfriend and driving thecar to the left of view as he
was driving away from Yes, atone moment, yes, okay, I

(04:14:07):
think further one chestin Eddie. Goodafternoon. So, miss Albert, you
were at your parents' home on Januarytwenty ninth by midnight or shortly thereafter?

(04:14:28):
Correct? Correct? And you werethe last one to leave at the one
two o'clock somewhere in that area.Yes, on January twenty ninth of twenty
twenty two. After you got upthat day, did you receive a call,
a text, any sort of communicationfrom any investigator connected with this case?

(04:14:54):
I did not. Super Proctor didnot contact you on January twenty ninth.
No, he did not interview youon January twenty ninth, He did
not. What about January thirtieth,No, thirty first, Nope. How
about the entire month of February.Did you hear from Trooper Proctor wherein he

(04:15:16):
set up a meeting or an interviewwith you? I did not. Then
what about the entire rest of twentytwenty two? Doctor interviewed you during that
entire year? All right, sothe objections overalled, you can answer that
I was not interviewed. No.And then in twenty twenty three, prior

(04:15:41):
to May of twenty twenty three,were you contacted by Trooper Proctor or any
investigator for an interview regarding what youjust testified to here today? I don't
think so. And you hadn't metmister Lalley by May of twenty twenty three
either, correct. I don't thinkso. But in May of twenty twenty

(04:16:04):
three, you actually were test calledto testify at another hearing where needed the
Commonwealth of the Defense in this casewas present, correct? Correct? Mistilali
and Is McLoughlin were not there,and certainly no members of the defense team
were there. Correct. Correct?And May of twenty twenty three was well

(04:16:27):
over a year after the events thatyou were called to testify about. Correct.
Correct. Right, So, ifthese events happened on January twenty eight
and twenty nine, twenty twenty two, January of the end of January of
twenty twenty three would have been ayear and now you're being asked for the

(04:16:48):
first time to give testimony about whathappened back in January of twenty twenty two.
In May of twenty twenty three,correct, Yes, And then it
was only after you testified for thatother proceeding without the prosecution and the defense

(04:17:08):
of this case there that Trooper Proctorfinally interviewed you in August of twenty twenty
three, correct, That's correct.And that was four months after you testified
in that other hearing of May oftwenty twenty three. Correct, June Tom
sorry, three months June July Augustcorrect, Correct, And it was about

(04:17:32):
a year and a half after Januarytwenty ninth of twenty twenty two. Correct.
I believe. So now, ondirect examination, mister Lally had asked
you about whether you knew Brian Higgins. Do you mind remember that line of
question? I do, and Ibelieve you testified that you knew of Higgins

(04:17:55):
correct. Yes, and you thoughtthat you had met him a both times?
Correct? Yes, so, RanHiggins, you would classify as an
acquaintance correct to me? Yes,I would classify him as a friend of
my father's not really an acquaintance orfriend of mine. Okay, so he

(04:18:19):
didn't rise to the level of anacquaintance somebody who you met but you didn't
really know. I'm not really surehow I would categorize my relationship with him.
Again, it was just more oflike he was my father's friend.
If I had seen him walking downthe street, I would have said hello
to him. I don't know anythingabout his personal life. I don't like

(04:18:41):
communicate with him regularly. So Imean, if that's what you would consider
an acquaintance, then yes, Iguess I would ask, but what do
you consider an acquaintance? How wouldyou define that time? I would say,
an acquaintance is someone who you arefriendly with and might see from time
to time. I guess in myhead, I'm just sort of thinking someone

(04:19:03):
who's in closer in age with me. I usually think of it as more
of like a friend type thing,and not my father's friend. To me,
I guess that's just the way Ithink of it in my head.
Okay, So is your testimony beforethis journey that an acquaintance is really a
friend, someone that you're friendly withperhaps could be? Okay, have you

(04:19:32):
watched any of the testimony in thiscase prior to the boy taking the stand
today? I have not. Hasanybody told you anything about any of the
testimony that has occurred prior to yourtaking the stand today? No? Okay,
who is Katie McLaughlin. Katie McLaughlinis a girl who I'm in the

(04:19:57):
same I'm the same age as.We went to high school together, we
graduated the same year, and wehave a couple of mutual friends. We
interact with some of the same peoplesocially. I don't really. I can't

(04:20:17):
think of a time, possibly ever, where her and I ever hung out
one on one or individually. Somore of like a friend of a mutual
friend. Okay, So, Kate, you would not consider Katie McLoughlin to

(04:20:40):
be a friend. She's not aclose personal friend of mine. If she
was a close personal friend, literallyfinish your antem. I'm sorry, go
ahead, finish your answer. Iwould not consider her one of my again
close friends. All So let's getback to my question, would you consider
her to be a friend? Checktion? Ill love that you may we approach.

(04:21:08):
There was no free to stand upand stretch. Okay, Miss Albert.
You know Fortney Procter correct? Iknow of her? Yes, and
you've been in her company several times? Correct? Yes, you've met her

(04:21:33):
children correct once? Yes, andyou know she is Michael Proctor's sister.
Correct. Yes. When Michael Proctorultimately interviewed you in August of twenty twenty
three, did he ever ask youhow well you knew his sister Courtney Proctor?

(04:21:57):
Did that subject ever come up?Not that I remember? And did
you ever mention it to him thatyou know you had met his sister and
met his sister's kids? I didnot now. On January twenty eighth of
twenty twenty two, you went tothe Waterfall with your boyfriend Tristan Morris.

(04:22:18):
Correct yes, and ultimately he leftand you stayed. Correct. Yes.
The reason that you stayed is youwanted to go back to the thirty fourth
fair View, your own home,to be there by midnight when your brother
was turning twenty three. Correct.Not necessarily. My plan was always to

(04:22:41):
stay and just spend some time withmy mom and my aunt. But Tristan
left very early because he knew thathe was going to have to be up
at three o'clock in the morning shovelingor plowing. So my plan was never
to go back with him. Butit wasn't necessarily because it was my brother's
birthday. Was just what my planwas for the night. Certainly, the

(04:23:03):
fact that it was your brother's birthdaydidn't deter you from going back there,
right. In other words, thefact that it was your brother's birthday didn't
cause you to hesitate to go back. You wanted to be there, right,
Well, my brother Brian wasn't atthe waterfall. I'm talking about them.

(04:23:26):
Let me let's startle Trystan Love right. Yes, you stayed at the
waterfall. Yes, and you plannedto go back to thirty fourth Fair,
did you not? At some pointin time that was spoken about and I
agreed to go back to thirty fourthFair of you? Yes, okay,
And you went back there to seeyour family, correct, Yes, including

(04:23:48):
your brother Brian, whose birthday itwas correct. Yes, that was your
parents' home, right, Yes,you grew up there. Yes, you
were comfortable there. Yes, there'splenty of room at the house. Correct,
in what sense a bunch of bedrooms. Yes, not all of them
were taken up correct at that time. Correct. You certainly felt welcome there,

(04:24:15):
correct Yes, And there was noproblem with you staying there overnight correct.
Correct. And when you made thedecision to go there after the waterfall,
you knew that there was a snowstormthat was starting correct. Yes,

(04:24:36):
and you've already testified that. Whenyou went back to thirty fourth Fair,
you saw your cousin, Colin Albertinside the home. Correct. Yes,
in fact, you walked in andhe was one of the first people that
you saw. Correct. Correct.He's been over your house many times.
Correct. Correct. You're close withhim as your first cousin, are you

(04:25:00):
not. I am, And yourbrother Brian Junior is close with him as
well. Correct. Yes, ColinAlbert is close with your parents. Correct.
Yes, you certainly welcome at yourparents' home correct. Correct. And
it was certainly not shocking to seeyour first cousin, Colin Albert at your
home correct. Correct. And youhad a brief interaction with him correct.

(04:25:25):
Yes, that was sort of towardthe foyer of the house. Yes,
And then you continued deeper into yourparents' home and you saw other people there.
Correct. Yes. Where did yougo within the home after you had
seen Colin? I believe I enteredthrough the foyer into the dining room area.
And when you were there, yousaw your brother Brian, whose birthday

(04:25:48):
it was correct. Yes, hehad two friends with him, Julie Nagel
and Sarah Levinson in that same area. Yes, you greeted them as well.
Yes, and that's where your attentionwas focused. Fair to say.
I would say that once I saidhello to them, I didn't just sit
with them three. I sort ofwas walking around. I wouldn't say my

(04:26:12):
attention was solely focused on them three, but I did greet them. Yes.
And where you were walking around withinthe kitchen dining room area, Yes,
And once you greeted Colin and lefthim, it's fair to say that
you then were not looking over yourshoulder monitoring what Colin was doing or where

(04:26:34):
he was going correct. Correct.And while you were in the kitchen dining
room area, the door to thebasement was kind of blocked from your view,
was it not? If I'm inthe dining room area, there is
a spot in there where I couldsee it, But I don't believe I

(04:26:56):
could see the basement door. Nowright from your advantage point, the door
to the basement's kind of blocked fromthe area that you were in for the
most part. Yes, and youweren't watching calling to see where he went
after you left him. Correct?Correct, And you never saw him leave

(04:27:17):
the house physically correct. Correct.Maybe a good time to pause. I
don't know. Are we going totop four? All right, that's the
pause, I think, all right, will bring you back tomorrow. Okay,
okay, I'll stay here and justlet the Jervis file person please discuss
this case with anyone. Don't doany independent research or investigation into this case.

(04:27:41):
If you happen to see here orread anything about this case, please
disregard it and let us know Tomorrow'sand have to do in the senior all
bless hold them out. Okay,thank you? Yes, all right.

(04:28:22):
So mister and Eddie, why don'tyou tell me now what it is you
hope to do tomorrow and the basisfor it, right, so, my
plane you are. It is basedon the fact that eating clothing when she
testified, tried to minimize her relationshipwith the The reason why that jogman is

(04:28:49):
that we have proof that she haschanged her story after she learned that thirty
fourth Fairview was the our family home. She was on record with Troopercroc stating
that this is Katy involved, statingthat what she heard my client say,

(04:29:12):
she actually overheard. She heard myclient addressing Jennifer McCabe on scene in a
hysterical manner, saying allegedly, Ihit him, I hit him, I
hit him. And that evolved inthis case to a multi part conversation with

(04:29:33):
many different people, including starting withKaty McLaughlin saying was there any trauma?
And she and my client supposedly responded, I hit him, And then a
police officer jumps in and asks anotherquestion, and my client supposedly said I
hit him. And there were fourdifferent times where my client was responding to

(04:29:56):
others, so that it wasn't reallythis burst of excitement and an excited utterness.
She tried to cast it as statementsthat were more made upon reflection,
making them sound more ominous and moreincultatory than what they were, particularly because
the person to whom my client wasspeaking, who was no friend of my

(04:30:18):
client, reported that she says,did I him? Could I have it?
So we have a clear conflict inthe testimony, we have a witness
who has admitted that her statement hasevolved, and she's admitted that her statement
evolved after she married. The activityof the house that she was at,
which happens to be the housband Katewhen Albert grew up, when she was

(04:30:41):
confronted with, you know, whois Katelyn Albert, When, of course
Jackson asked Katy the buck who KateLean Albert was, there was a long
pause and then she was very andthen even the way she phrased it was
I think telling I went to schoolwith somebody by that name, or it

(04:31:03):
was something to that that was justsounded ridiculous. It sounded like it was
somebody that she was trying to remember. You know, at that point,
we had four photos that we markedfor id hiv A and k where we
have them together, We have themFacebook friends, We have a nature of
the relationship that she tried to concealin our career. Since that time,

(04:31:25):
we've been deluged by other photos ofthe two of them together, So including
one you know, intimate photo ofthem, you know, before them.
So when I say the four ofthem, I mean Kate, Katel and
Albert for two college roommates, andthe only person who's not alternated in that
photo is Katy McLaughlin. Katy McLoughlinalso said that she never went on anything

(04:31:51):
other than occasional day trips with Kateand Albert. We now know that that's
false. We have them in togetherin hot drinking in a photo that it
was from Maine, which is abouta four hour drive away. When is
it was posted on in twenty sixteen, which is about but when did it

(04:32:12):
occur? Did it occur in twentysixteen or was it posted in twenty sixteen?
It was posted in twenty sixteen.I think the ender, you know,
that's when it was a new photothat was software I mean for that
location was tagged in twenty sixteen.So we always after high school, which

(04:32:32):
again contrast Katy with all offline testimony, because she made it seem like this
is just something role that I knewin high school and then we happened to
be at the same places at varioustimes, but I'm not close with it,
despite the fact that I had myhonor un during both of the photos.
The other aspect of this Sharonna isthat she said that she had not
Kiddy block and testified she had notseen Katelin average for I think two or

(04:32:55):
three years prior to January of twentytwenty two. We have a baby shaller
photo that is from June twenty twentyone. They are standing next to each
other. Do you have someone toauthenticate that date? Kate went Albert or
Kick authentically that date? Why areyou sure that she's going to be shown

(04:33:18):
a baby shallow which occur in twentytwenty one? Okay, that's why it's
time stands one on social media andKatelin Albert, her face and her body
are in that photo. Katie McLaughlin'sface and body are in that photo.
How many other people are in thatphoto? I think there are six photo
gives for ideas? Oh, thankyou well, Actually, if I can

(04:33:48):
just see those, I thought thesewere different photos. If I could have
those, then then you don't needto count the people. There are five
out of people in the photo withthem, but they're together on the right
side of the photo. I mean, you know, these photos impeached the
testimony of Kingdom of Bloklin multiple times, and we should be allowed to explore

(04:34:11):
the bias of these witnesses, particularlythe bias of Katie m bloughlin, who
ports to give the creminating testimony againstmy client, bring a new testimony that
only existed after she learned the identityof the homeowners in this case. This
is classic bias and classic impeachment evidence. There's no reason why we shouldn't be

(04:34:33):
able to show a photographic evidence ofthis relationship. Much like this, the
Ladley's shown photographic evidence of the thirtyfour thirty what it looks like. It
is intended to assist the jury andin doing a four or three balancing testimon
the probative nature of this evidence greatlyoutweighs any prejudice. She's able to explain

(04:34:57):
these photos anyway she wants when misterLeblon does his redirect exhamination of her.
But without being able to get intothis Katy McLoughlin's testimony, it's like she's
wearing a suit of armor. Wecan't get through it. We have the

(04:35:19):
tools and the evidence to get throughit. We have the ability to expose
her as somebody that's misrepresented something veryimportant to this court. We can't ask
these questions and we can't get anyof these photos, and we're not able
to do it. All right,mister Lelli, what do you say,
yer? Just as far as theauthenticity of whatever these is, as far

(04:35:42):
as social media is concerned, there'sa variety of ways to fabricate that.
And I think it's interesting that misterDenetti is really vague about where these photos
came from or how he knows thespecifics that he's so sure about about when
they occurred, where they occurred,what state, people in, what day
it was, who is college roommatesof who within these photographs, but has

(04:36:06):
no specifics about where these deluge ofphotographs came from. More importantly, your
Honor, what I would submit asfar as Miss McLaughlin is concerned, as
she was entirely consistent and I did. The disparagement is as far as what
her testimony has been, as faras her statement within the report the Trooper
Proctor, her grand jury testimony inthis case, and her testimony before this

(04:36:27):
jury on the stand were identical,if not entirely consistent. And again it's
not just Miss McLaughlin that is attributingthis statement to the defendant. Jury has
heard from two other firefighters as wellas anticipated other witnesses who will testify to
these exact same statements that the defendantmade outside of the home on that date.

(04:36:48):
What Council I think is referring toas far as the could I have
hit him is something that the defendantsaid to Miss McKay which was overheard by
Miss Roberts on a speed her phoneon the way to Fairview Road. And
then she modifies that statement when she'sasked specifically about the bruising and how that
could have been caused. And it'sat that point where she repeats, I

(04:37:11):
hit him, I hit him,I hit him, I hit him.
So to then use prior statements toa completely separate witness that have nothing to
do with Miss McLoughlin, to tryto use that to claim impeachment or bias
is ridiculous. And then as faras it applies to this specific witness,
when it comes to impeachment and bias, what the case law is very clear

(04:37:32):
about is if it goes to biasof the witness who is on the stand,
and the witness in this case isMiss Albert, not Miss mclaflin.
All right, thank you, thiswill save us some time tomorrow. I'm
going as go to the Wave Disabilitieshas she has more proceed into high asked

(04:37:57):
than any said, I hit him. Then she repeated it. A woman
said, more hysterically, you needto calm down. She said, I
hit him. Then a police officersaid, what did you say? She
repeated, I hit him. Uh. And you know was in the cave
for herself testified in the Grand Journey, that's not what happened that she said

(04:38:18):
at that moment, did I hithim? Could I have? She's on
record saying, all right, thankyou, I'll take a look at my
notes and we'll figure this out.First thing, all right,