Boyfriend Cop Murder Trial – MA v. Karen Read – Day 15

Episode Transcript

(00:43):
It's quite amnious. You're right,I'll be right back, all right,

(01:32):
lead y all presses, I meanbusiness for the autumn, Emily Canoni.

(01:57):
Just before they tell you give yourlieutenant you shall be heard, I'd say
the cabal Massachusetts would have now openyou maybe see tw W versus Karen read
thank good morning again again read goodmorning. Juris, I want to ask

(02:17):
you those same three questions. Wereyou all able to follow the instructions and
refrain from discussing this case with anyonesince we left her on Pride? Yes?
Everyone said yes, so noted affirmatively. Were you also able to follow
the instructions and reframed from doing anyindependent research or investigation into this case?
Yes? Everyone said yes or notit affirmatively. Did anyone happen to see

(02:40):
here or read anything about this casesince we left here on Pride? Everyone
said no, thank you very much. May we have mister King please?

(03:05):
So it couldn't just be my stepup Race Brandon Sloss gonna important during the
case, true culture and nothing butthe true solid All right, mister Jackson,
whenever you're ready. This Pocad familyis important to you, is it

(03:30):
not? Yes? As a matterof fact, it's probably fair to say
that family is one of the mostimportant things in your life. Yes,
you indicated on a Friday that youknow John O'Keeffe, You knew John O'Keefe,
and you considered in a friend.Yes, you also indicated that you
know miss reed and at some pointyou considered her fat. Yes, clearly,
John O'Keeffe was not family was now. He was not a macad No,

(03:53):
he was not an Albert Now.Karen Reid is not correct, correct,
Don McCabe, No, she's notan album now, mis McKay.
When you were at Waterfall on theevening of the twenty eighth, going into

(04:14):
the early morning hours of twenty ninth, you spent some time with John O'Keeffe
and Karen Reeve. Correct. Youdidn't see any tension between the two of
them at the time. No,matter of fact, they see what a
normal couple to you. I didn'tsee them interact much. They were both
engaging with you, correct. Ihad separate conversations with them. So John

(04:38):
O'Keeffe, we've seen from several videos. I'm not going to play the video.
John O'Keefe was situated for the mostpart over in that corner as the
camera is looking the right corner ofthe bar along with you. Nicola Keith
says, I think Matt McCabe wasover there as well. Correct. I
can't be sure, but I knowI s spoke to Karen in that corner,

(05:01):
and certainly you saw nothing to suggestthat there was any tension or discord
between and among those individuals, certainlybetween miss Reid and mister o'keith. Correct.
Correct, When you left Fairview,were you among the first to leave

(05:21):
or among the last? Sleep Ileft with There was four of us that
left total. It was myself,my husband, Matt, Julie Nagel,
and Sarah Levinson. When you walkedout, Kreina Cole Keithys was close by,

(05:43):
close and sead Correct. Oh wait, are you talking about leaving the
waterfall? Oh? I'm sorry,I was confused. I was talking about
fair View leaving the waterfall. Yes, we were one of the last to
leave, all right, And missKreina col Keithus was sort of in toe
right with you as you're walking.Correct, Yes, here read my client
was also heading that direction as well. Yes, you said something to miss

(06:08):
Read, did you not? Asyou walked out? We were in a
conversation. Yes, did you sayspecifically you're coming with me here? Now,
you didn't say that, not exactlythose words. What exactly were the
words that you use? I said, why don't you come with me?

(06:29):
And you even waited outside in whatwas ultimately freezing cool temperatures. Format correct,
Yes, she could keep a lookon with couch permission. Exhibit fifty
three. I'd like to play abouta maybe a fifteen second clip from that.
Okay, actually it's a little bitlonger than that. It maybe a
man pass for the record you wantknow? This is about runtime twelve to

(06:56):
ten seventeen sevens or so. Ifyou could move that up to twelve ten
about forty five seconds, that's closeenough. Mister King, Do you recognize
what's depicted in this portion of thevideo? I see a car, it's
kind of hard to see. Idon't know what that thing on the white
thing is. Okay, let's goin the planet. Let's see if you

(07:17):
recognize them. A terrible place posit's also not super clear. Can you
see a person in that video fromwhere I'm sitting now? It's a little
soup yes, forward, Well,I actually really can that just a little

(07:39):
bit. Did you see a personin the background right here. I don't,
honestly, I don't. I can'tmake out what that is. That's
now do you see person? Yes, whe is terrible, I apologize not
my video. Do you know whothat person is? I don't know that's
you, isn't it? I can'ttell from that picture if that's me.

(08:03):
Most may played lucid further forward.Now with the flag out of the way,
do you recognize anybody in the foregrounddown at the bottom right that looks
to be John mister? Yes?I do, yes, and I cannot

(08:24):
make her out. Make it outin the photo, and Paul, you
see the person with the sort ofwhite shoes just above the car. Yes,
I can't make that out that it'sme. But I know I was
there and I know I spoke withthem. Okay, So you do recall
walking outside and sort of waiting andhovering about that area. Correctly, I

(08:48):
was talking with them. Okay.Does appear that you're talking with them that
looks like they've walked away, Asa matter of fact, it look like
they walked away without talking to yououtside, correct Or do you have video
of moments before that when I wasstanding talking to them? This is the
point where I get to ask thequestions and you get to answer. You

(09:11):
yourself standing in the parking lot afterJohn and the persons he was right and
walking off. Yes, okay,let's play it for just a few more
seconds. Pause, and what doyou appear to be doing at that one?
Walking to my car? So youturn around and left after misoe' keefe
and the person who is right walkingon correct? Correct. As you sit

(09:33):
here, even though the video isleads a little to be desired, you
know that John o keif left withKaren. Correct. Yes, So the
person who is right, the morepetite person with long hair, That would
be Karen, I would assume.Okay, So you waited out in the
parking lot for a few minutes afteryou said or joked you're coming with me
or something like that. Correct.I wouldn't know I was speaking to them,

(09:58):
and then I walked to my car. You didn't say, so,
mister O'Keeffe, you're coming with me. You said to Karen read you're coming
with me, or something to thatpoint. Right, Mister O'Keeffe was not
outside when I said to Karen,you're coming with me, I sold,
I told Karen you're coming with mebecause John was still in the bar with
Matt. So you asked Karen tocome with you in your car, Yes,

(10:22):
to give her a ride. Yes, separate from John O'Keeffe. Yes,
I figured he could go with Mattbecause they were still in the bar.
Was there a reason why you wantedto separate miss Read from mister O'Keeffe
at that moment? Now, whynot just walk to your car with Matt,
go where you're going to go?Matt was still inside, So you

(10:43):
thought it was important enough to makethe statement, you're coming with me or
something that affects my client to separateher from John O'Keeffe, even though your
testimony is John o'keeff was just insidethe bar. Objection sustained as to that
forum, ask it differently, Sure, did you believe it was important at
that point to ask miss Reed tocome with you, which would separate her

(11:07):
from John. There was never anyidea of separating them, except for the
fact the idea was you're coming withme, not you two are coming with
me? Correct? Incorrect by definition? If she came with you, separating
her from John, wouldn't we werestanding outside talking? He answered yes or

(11:28):
no? By definition, your statementto her, you come with me,
would separate her from John? Wouldnot? Because we were all going back
to Favu Road, not at thesame time, now, correct. Your
idea is friend Karen with you,separate and apart from John. We were

(11:50):
waited, We were waiting for Johnto come out, and I said,
why don't you just come with me? It was innocent. I'm not asking
for your explanation, You'll get tothat. I'm asking for a yes or
no question or yes no answer mydefinition, your invitation would separate Karen from
John? Would it not? Assistend? Move on? Would or would not

(12:13):
separate John and Carren for the rightAssistand now, when you arrived at Fairview,
some folks who are already there?Correct? Yes, who was already
there? Brian Higgins, Brian Albert, Nicole, Albert Caitlin, Albert,

(12:39):
Julie Nagel, Sarah Levinson, andBrian Albert Jr. And then you arrived
as we saw you walk through theworking lot, John in your car.
You arrived with your husband, Matt. Yes. Correct. I want to
ask a question about mister higgins planon Friday that you saw his vehicle when

(13:03):
you got to the scene correct.Yes, And you said that it was
pulled up a little bit in frontof the mailbox correct, Yes, it
is sixty six courts permission. Please. This is a digital model of the
location. Do you recognize this?Yes, the prebvia relative scale model of

(13:26):
thirty four Fairy. Yes. Thiswould be the front door correct. Yes.
And where's the mail box if youcan point point to it with a
laser way? Okay, so you'repointing to an area just in front of
a car that's in the driveway,correct, yes, and then the driveways
is the right? Yes? Nowalong this line is the front lawn area

(13:54):
and property line? Correct? Yes, you indicating that that g is just
a little bit in front of themailbox, meaning about there correct. Yes.
And the rear end of that wouldbe a butting up against the driveway
yes, or at least the lineof the driveway. Correct. Yes,

(14:16):
that's quite a bit of detail aboutwhere that jeep was, would you agree?
No, because I drove down thestreet and I took a left into
the driveway and there was a jeepthere. Okay, what I'm asking is
you didn't just say you remember yourstopped just somewhere in front of the house.
It's literally right in front of themailbox, on the end of it,

(14:39):
adjoining the line of the driver.Correct. Yes, that detail obviously
stuck out in your mind. Itdid because I was wondering whose jeep it
was. Did you discuss that detailwith your husband at any point? Not
sure? You're not sure why not? I'm not sure if I said whose
cheep is that? No, Idon't mean that. I mean between then

(15:01):
and now, have you and mistermckaid ever discussed where that jeep was your
memories and where that jeep was.Possibly you're aware that the exact same place
that you do. Are you awareof that? I am? Oh wait
minute, excuse me repeat the question. You're aware that he puts the jeep

(15:22):
in the exact same spot you justput right in front of that mailbox.
I know he knows where the jeepwas. I'm not aware what he said
in here. Does he know wherethe jeep was because you told him what
to say about the jeep? Absolutelynot. It's because we drove together in
the car and I asked. Ipossibly could have asked a time. Please,

(15:43):
I'm sorry. I didn't need tostep on any words. That's okay,
you can continue, Thank you appreciatethat. I don't think we got
your answer though, Okay, yeah, I think Madame Court reporter was asking
for your answer when you repeat youredge to the question of didn't know where
the jupe was? Told him Idid not need to tell Matt where the

(16:06):
jupe is was. He knew becausewe were in the car together. But
you two discussed when are you askingany time between January twenty ninth today?
I'm sure we have. Yes.You were also interviewed by Trooper Proctor on
January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two. Correct, yes, and you were

(16:27):
asked a series of open ended questionswhat did you see? Where did you
see? Yes? Have we putany words in your mouth? Now?
He told you what to say atthat time? Now? And you told
super Proctor that when you arrived atthe scene. After you got there,
you quote first observed the vehicle,meaning miss Reed's SUV parked on the street

(16:52):
by the driveway, facing the directionof Chef. Correct. Can I do
something I can look at to refreshmy memory? Sure? Do you not
have a word exactly what I'm told? Well? I know what I'm Yes,
you need your memory refreshed. Iwould like to see what through your

(17:14):
poet says. Please yes, paragraphicthread, this is a face page.
You'll review that, especially with thehighlighted abortion. Let me know if you
reviewed. Just read this to yourself. Do you have a Is that refresh

(17:40):
your recollection? Yes? I know, I told me I'm so sorry to
do this. I don't need tobe rude. I'm just acting. Who
does that or does that not refreshrecollection? Regarding what you said to super
Proctor on the twenty nine, well, I know what I said to Proctor
Trooper on the twenty ninth. Ihave to do it this way or rules?
Does that help you with your recollectionof what I told you? I

(18:03):
didn't tell Troop I told her TrooperProctor the car was outside when I looked
at the front door and was straightoutside. I can't quite get the answer
I'm looking for. The court isgoing to require me to ask this question
again. Does that profresher recollection?Yes? Or no? As to what
I did not say this to TrooperProctor? Now it doesn't help you?

(18:25):
Now, okay, there I approach. Yes, thank you. So you
did seek the twenty nine correct correct, and the Trooper Proctor asked you some
very specific questions about where things werecorrect, correct, focus on Miss Reid's
suv. Didn't it ask you questionsabout where miss reads as you you can

(18:48):
show me in the report. Justread it. So just off of what
I just read is out going offoff of yes, I'm asking for your
memory your testify. Yes, somy memory is exactly where the car was
hold on. So it's very importantthat both of you, one person at
a time, speaks. Madame Courtreporter has to do what you're both saying,

(19:11):
and she can't do it simultaneously.So the best way to do that
is Ms mccaye. Just let counselask the question and a new answer,
and if it takes a lot moretime than we expected to take, it
does okay, So just thanks goahead, mister Jackson, I'll slow it
down. Did you talk to timberProctor about where a shed was? Yes,

(19:36):
thank you. And he asked youquestions about where it was situated outside
correct? Yes, And you toldhim that you first observed it parked on
the street by the driveway, facingthe direction of Chapman. Correct. I
told him that when I looked outthe front door, the cow is straight
ahead, and yes, it wasfacing up Chapman. You left out a

(20:00):
little part of the drive away.Correct. That could have been his interpretation
or an error on his pipe.I see the proctor is wrong about what
you said. Objection. No,I'll let him have it. Do you
think he's wrong about what you said? I said it was straight out of
the front door. Okay, nextquestion please, And you're in the course

(20:22):
of that conversation, you never once, Miss McKay not once mentioned a several
ton g with a snowcloud touched it. I'm not sure if I did or
not. Another look at the recollectionthe report. Objection. Do you think

(20:45):
that will help you. I'll takea look at it. Okay, Yes,
direct your attention once again. Inparagraph three. You've had an opportunity.
I have you, John, thatlooks like a report from Trooper Proctor.
If your interview correct. Correct Thatinterview was taken on January twenty ninth,

(21:08):
correct. Correct that interview was takenjust a few hours of days or
weeks hours after the events in question. Correct. Correct. And you were
asked what you saw what you infront of thirty fourth fair of you on
that morning? Correct, I'm sorrythe night before. Corrects specific questions about
Miss Reid's vehicle. Okay, Andwhen you said where you remember this reads

(21:30):
vehicle being, you placed it inthe exact spot where you're now saying it
was a g It was soaplow up. Correct, incorrect. I never placed
miss Reid's car in the spot wheremister higgins vehicle was. So Trooper Proctor

(21:51):
was taking notes of what you weresaying, we just got it. Well,
you'd have to ask Trooper Proctor.I will. And you never mentioned,
according to that report, that oneword about a jeep, right,
I was, I may never havebeen asked about a jeep. So if
you weren't asked about ajeep, youalso weren't asked about a Nissan Altima.

(22:14):
Mentioned that now, right, Becausewhat he asked you was what did you
observe in front of the house man. That's what he asked, wasn't No,
And you said I observed her car? No, And you never mentioned
a jeep, did you? Youare not portraying what the conversation was,

(22:38):
did you or did you not mentionajee sitting on that right by that driveway,
super Proctor? Yes or no,it's not in the report. I
don't remember. Recall if he askedme about aj now. Following the events
of January twenty eighth, twenty ninth, you spoke extensively to Chris and Julie

(22:59):
albertrect. What do you mean byextensively? Did you speak at all?
Yes, we did between now andbetween then and now to Christ and Julia
Albert. Do I speak to christand Julie Albert? Have you spoken to
them about these events between then andnow about this case? Is that what
you're asking Yes, mister Jabe,I'm asking about this case. Of course

(23:23):
I speak to them all the timeabout the vicious harassment we are all receiving.
That wasn't my question. My questionwas did you talk to them about
this key? Yes, I realizedyou want to give additional answers to to
Laitory. I'm asking you very specificquestions direction, okay, So objection as
to the form we've talked about thisat Cyber, mister Jackson, you've talked

(23:47):
to them about the details of thatnight correct twenty eighth, going into the
morning of the twenty ninth. Yes, we've talked to them about what happened
at the bar. Correct. We'vespoke about how we were all at the
bar, and Karen and John camein. Yes or no? Yes,
Okay, you've spoken to them aboutyour memory of what happened at the House
of thirty four fair of Me thatnight. Right. Yes, you've spoken

(24:08):
to them about who was at thebar, not just what happened, but
who was there. Correct. Correct, we talked to them about the timing
of the night. Correct. Idon't think specifically now when people came to
the bar, when they left,when people got to Fairview, when they
left Fairview, friends of that nature. Well, they were at the bar,
so they know who is there andwhen they left. And ask if

(24:30):
you know what they know. I'masking if you've ever spoken to them about
these issues. Yes or no?I can't be sure. If we've spoken
about the timeline, and you've talkedto them about when they got there and
when they left, I have noidea when they arrived at the waterfall.
Once again, miss mckaid, that'snot what my question was. Do you
understand my question? Spoke to themabout their memory of that night and when

(24:57):
they came out me. Oh,they have not shared with me when they
got there or when they have left. In the two years or two and
a half years since this event,you've had extensive conversations with your friends and
family about this circumstance correct. Correct, Yes, you've told them your observations,

(25:22):
your story correct, correct, yourobservations of the night correct. They
told you their observations of the nightcorrect. Correct. So you all have
compared and contrasted your perspectives of whathappened that night. Correct. We've tried
to figure out what happened to John, our friend, and you've talked to
them extensively about your observations and whatyour story or your version is. Is

(25:45):
that right? To be honest?Not extensively speaking about it is very painful
and difficult. What does extensively meanmore than twice? Will you tell me
I'm asking the questions. That's okay, but that's how this works, I
understand, But would mean almost everyday? Do you talk to them almost
every day? I do, butnot about the case. Subjects about this

(26:07):
case come up every day. Theharassment of the case does Yes, What
about the specific facts of the case. No, it's the facts aren't spoken
as much as the vicious harassment isspoken about. So you've told them your
version of the events correct, andthey've told you their version of the events

(26:29):
correct, And remind me Chris andJulie Albert are in fact Colin's parents.
Correct. At some point you becameaware that your daughter Ali was involved in
this matter to some extent. Correct. Yes, you became aware that there

(26:52):
was an extraction of your phone thatrevealed some data about her whereabout. That's
not how I became a are nowlike three sixty? Yes, I know
what that is. That's what I'masking about. Became a where you're Well,
you know your phone was extracted.Correct, I willingly hand it over
my phone or we'll get to that. Oh, okay, you know that
your phone was extracted, Yes,I handed it over. And you know

(27:17):
that your daughter's whereabouts were revealed basedon data on that phone. Correct,
I I That is not how Ibecame aware of my daughters whereabouts. You
testified at the state grand jury questionby mister Lolly, Correct, Yes,

(27:38):
you were asked about the Life threesixty. Yes, you answer those questions
very fluidly. Yes, Yes,I know what the Life three sixty is
and use it all the time.It's not et cetera. Absolutely. Okay,
let's go over that for a second. You admitted that it works as
a quote GPS as far as wherepeople go and everywhere that you go correct
correct, And that it works asa reliable quote unquote tracking device. Is

(28:03):
your testify correct? You indicated thatyou rely on it quote so you know
where your kids are at all whereyour kids are at all times? Is
that right? Correct? And youeven said that it's a quote unquote good
parenting tool. Is that right?Correct? And the reason you said that
is because it's accurate in your experienceand it's reliable. Is that right?
It's a good tool, but itis not always accurate. But you said

(28:27):
when you testified in front of theGreat Grand Jury that it is accurate and
it works as a GPS as faras where you go and everywhere you go?
Correctraction? Did you say that?Can I see it? Sure?

(28:56):
Yeah? For sure? Yeah?Thirteen you said, thirteen through fifteen ma'am

(29:18):
okay, yeah? Yes? Doesthat refresh your recollection? It does?
Yes? Question and answer? Weh, I just don't see the word accurate
on there. I don't know ifI missed it. It's the kaye.
Does that refresh your recollection? Isthe question and answer about whether you said
it works as sort of a GPSas far as where you go and everywhere
that you go. Correct, andyour answer was yeah, yes, okay.

(29:48):
So where did Ali go after shesupposedly dropped off Colin over? She
went nowhere? Did you check herLife three sixty up to verify that she
went nowhere? At that point Ihad no reason to check her. So
the answer is no, you didn't. Now okay? Did you ever verify
through the three sixty app? Andin fact Ali did not go home but

(30:11):
rather was out driving until after onethirty am? Checked the app and see
that? Did I have a checkedLife thirty sixty app for that? No?
Okay, But you believed her whenshe said she came home, Yes,
and just led you to leave herwhen she said she picked up Colin,
dropped him off and then came home. Yes, the Alborts have a

(30:37):
dog? Had a dog? Or? Correct? Yes? Was the dog's
name? Chloe? You indicated thaton the morning of January twenty ninth,
after six am, it was stillrelatively dark out, you burst into the

(30:57):
bedroom of Brian and Cole Albert's home. Correct. Yes, you did that
specifically to wake up according to you, Brian Albert Nicole Albert correct? Yes?
What was Cray? I don't know, so you'll agree that, at

(31:22):
least from their perspective, you walkedin the front door unexpectedly correct. Yes,
you walked upstairs unexpectedly correct. Yes, still dark outside, right,
Yes, you walked through their door. And you said you burst into the
door into a dark room where theywere sleeping. Correct. Yes, mister

(31:45):
Albert said that you were somewhat hysterical. Did you agree with that? Yes,
you were loud, right, Iwas trying to wake them up.
You were somewhat chi yes, Andyou don't remember a seventy pound German shepherd
having any reaction. Now, ifyou don't remember the dog being there at

(32:08):
all? Correct, corract you neversaw that dog, correct, I have
no memory of seeing that dog.Okay, so as you sit here today,
cannot say that the dog was herebecause you don't have a memory I've
ever seen it. I did notsee it. Now, and remind me
once again, when you were leavingthat night, that early morning before,

(32:31):
who's the last person to leave.It's Caitlin. I believe she left after
it. We talked about this,and I want to get a little bit
more detail about it. You indicatedthat at some point you looked outside and
you saw Karen Read's SUD in frontof the house. Safe to say,
correct? Correct that what time wasthat that you first saw it? I

(32:59):
can just of you maybe approximates.I know I texted when I saw them,
So whatever time that was, allright, let's see if we can
narrow that down to You also indicatedthat you saw Ryan Nagel's vehicle outside.
Saw lights, okay, lights belongingto the vehicle, right, Yes,

(33:22):
I knew there was another vehicle outside. And where was that in relation to
Miss Reid's vehicle? It was behindit. I didn't pay much attention to
it, okay. And where wasthe G in relation to Ryan Nagle's vehicle
and Karen reads SGB. I rememberseeing Karen Reid's suv straight and then I

(33:44):
saw the lights of Ryan Nagel.I did not pay attention to where it
was. I was just looking atMiss Read's vehicle. Was Ryan Nagle's vehicle
and those lights that you remember infront of the G were behind it?
I'm not certain. Haven't you testifiedpreviously that you remember the jeep being between

(34:06):
Brian naggles vehicle and the suv.I am not certain where Brian Nagle's vehicle
was, so as you sit herenow, you don't know if it was
in front of the jeep. Didshe placed it by the mailbox? I
definitely it would be behind the geor somewhere in between. It definitely was

(34:30):
not in front of the jeep.Definitely was not in front of the jeep.
Now, so it's definitely behind thegeep, behind or to the side.
I'm not sure. Well, ifit's parked on the street in from
the house, it's not gonna bebeside the tea right, it would have
been in the middle of the road. Correct, So if it's pulled over,

(34:50):
it's behind the jeep. Okay,So now we've narrowed that down.
Is Hart reads as because we're lookingat the property, Hart reads SGV to
the right of that I lived aton the street at the party right of
that energy behind that Ryan Nagle's view. Correct, Be sure about that?
If my memory serves right? Yes, if your memory serves okay, So

(35:16):
you were asked about the arrival ofmister Nagle's car at the state grand jury.
Do you recall that I believe sothat was in April April twenty sixth,
twenty twenty two. Okay, Okay, does that sound about right?
Doesn't expect you ride that day.Yes, you told you were asked what

(35:37):
time did you see Ryan Nagles's vehiclearrive at the location, and you indicated
that it was twelve twenty three.You remember that, do you have it?
I do ye? Yes. Takea look at lines twenty one on

(36:09):
the highlighted Okay marter. Yes,you're asked, do we know what time
the brother came, meaning Ryan Nagelcracked And the question for mister Lally was

(36:30):
that was from a grand jury.The question from mister Lally was if you
know Right cracked? And your answerwas I believe he was out front at
twelve twenty correct. And the reasonyou could be so precisely that times,
McKay, is because you had askedJulie Nagel to give you her text messages

(36:52):
with Ryan for that night and youwould refresh your recollectric about the time Right
cracked. All right. And you'vealso testified that as soon as you saw
miss Reid's suv you texted John isthat right? Correct? Your exclamation point
question mark that was the first text, right correct? But your text to

(37:15):
John was at twelve twenty seven.You recall that, yes, that's four
minutes after you know, Ryan Nagelarrived at the scene. Correct. Correct.
Since Karen Reid arrived before Ryan Nagel, she and John had to have

(37:37):
been there four to five minutes beforeyou ever saw miss jection. Is that
right? Ryan Nagel texted his sisterat twelve twenty three here, and then
he texted again that he was goingto leave. Then Julie Nagel went outside

(38:00):
and day. That's not my question. I'm explaining what happened in the four
minutes you can explain at another question. My question is very specific. Given
the fact that Karen read by definition, arrived at the location before Ryan Nagel

(38:20):
and Ryannagel arrived at twelve twenty three, that means and you didn't notice the
suv until twelve twenty seven. Thatmeans her car was there for at least
four minutes before you ever noticed it. Correct. Jection. Is that correct?
Can you answer that question? Correct? The snow condition. You've heard

(38:46):
a lot about the snow condition.I'm not going to be that deads but
it's safe to say that you wouldagree with me that it was a light
dusting snow. Correct. I shouldbe specific about the time. It was
a light testing if snow at foraround twelve to twelve thirty twelve Lley five,

(39:06):
something like that. It was startingto accumulate, Okay, and accumulate
means stick to the ground, notjust fallen knut right, Yes, so
it was starting to turk like alike a very thin blanket of white.
Yes, you indicate that. Areyou indicated on Friday that you saw some

(39:28):
sort of tire tracks? Is thatright on Friday? I don't believe I
thought any testimony in Misue Island onFriday you indicated that you saw some tire
tracks that could be well, yes, I don't remember that. Okay,
let me ask you. Did yousee any tire tracks at one point?
Yes? Okay, When was thatpoint? I'm not sure. Was it

(39:50):
before miss Reed's vehicle got there?Was it after? Let's use that as
barama first. I believe it wasafter Miss Reid's vehicle was there, because
that's why I was drying to lookup outside and what did those tire tracks
look like? How would you describeher? Almost like as a as a
wave a lot like this, solike a like a half jay. To

(40:13):
my recollection, it was almost likestarted if miss Read's vehicles here Let's pretend
it was kind of like that,like a bit of a weight, So
if you started on coming towards her, it'd be more of a wave like
this in the road. What itsounds like is perhaps I want to but
perhaps what you're describing is tracks inthe middle of the road. If someone

(40:37):
is pulling off parallel, it wouldpull to the right and then stop.
Those are the tracks that you saw. That's the wave that you saw.
It wasn't up to her car,it was. It doesn't look like your
description. Okay, so you didn'tgo out to her car. Those tracks

(41:00):
belong to somebody else. Well,when I saw her car had already moved
up. Well minute, you alreadysaid that when you saw her car was
directly and then it moved at onepoints. What I'm asking about, let's
just take the point of when youfirst saw the car. Yes, yes,
you first saw the car. That'swhen you saw the tire tracks.

(41:22):
You just said that. No,I did not say when I first saw
the car saw the tire tracks.I thought you just said a couple of
questions ago that you saw the tiretracks because your attention was drawn to her
car. That would be the firsttime you saw her car. I'm saying
I saw the tire tracks because Iwas looking out at her car. I

(41:45):
never said when I saw the tiretracks or where her car was when I
saw the tire tracks. Well,I thought you just said, because I
asked when did you see the tiretracks? You said I saw the tire
tracks when I looked and saw hercar because my attention was drawn to her
car and I saw the tire tracks. That would be the first time you

(42:07):
looked at her car. Correct,It's not doesn't have to be the first
time I looked at her car.I looked out multiple times. Did you
see the tire tracks the second time? Well, I'm not exactly sure.
You see the third time? Again, I'm not sure. Okay, So
could have been the first time,could have been. They didn't lead to

(42:28):
the back tires of her car.No, let me have just a moment
on it. Yes. In additionto mister I'm sorry, Trooper Proctor interviewing
you on the twenty ninth, youalso gave extensive testimony on April twenty sixth,
twenty twenty two, in front ofa state court century correct correct,

(42:51):
and you were asked about the locationof Miss Read's vehicle. I'm still staying
with that for just a quick second, if you don't mind. Is that
right? Correct? You were askedwhere that SUV was in relation to Ryan
Nagel's car. Is that right?Would I be able to look at it
to refresh my memory? Please?Well, let's start with this. Do
you remember being asked about here Readsthat should and Ryan Nigels truck. To

(43:19):
be honest, I've had a fewgrand Jerry's, so I'm if you could
show me what you're talking about,I would greatly appreciate it. I may
have just a moment your yes,let's see things up your arm this moment.

(43:55):
Okay, okay, the entire grandjury director attention, very Couch.
Yes, thank you, Thank youfor the entirety of your state Court grand

(44:17):
jury. Okay, well, I'mgoing to direct your attention to pages one
eighty two to eighty seventh and probablyscan those pretty quickly and just let me
know what you scan those. Okay, those pages ska h m hm hm

(44:49):
h m hm h m hm okayh h h m hm hm h yeah

(45:30):
you yes, thank you, thankyou. You have an opportunity base association.
I did, yes, as youplan my question is relative simple one,
relatively simple one, and I wonderyou have an opportunity. At no
point when you were describing the vehiclesthat were out front in front of thirty

(45:51):
fourth thirty on that night, atno point under oath, in front of
that grand jury, did you evermention a g did you I was not
asked still about any other vehicles outfront. So when you were talking about
the vehicles that you saw on thefront and some things taking detail, talking
about the as the black suv andRyan Nagel's truck, you just left out

(46:12):
the jeep because nobody asked you aboutit. I didn't read anything in that
about Ryan nagels vehicle. Do youmiss it? I must have? Okay,
is it in there? Yeah?It is? Okay, Well back
to ask about Ryan Nagel's jeep.Weren't you if you want to show me,
well, I don't want to sithere, and did you review your
just read it all? I didn'tsee it. It's the kid. She

(46:35):
can't interrupt when I'm talking. Okay, I will do the same as you
review the the pas. You wereasked about the cars that you saw on
the front, did you know Iwas asked about miss Reid's vehicle, and
at no point did you mention ajeep being behind Miss Reed's vehicle as you
testified today, correct, the questionswere all about Miss Reid's vehicle at no

(46:57):
point. My question is this,yes or no? Did you did did
you mention ever in that grand jurythere was a jeep behind miss reads view?
Yes or no? I'm not sure. I'd have to read it all.
As you sit here, do yourecall mentioning the chief I was asked
about Miss Read's vehicle, and thoseare the questions I answered. I can't.

(47:20):
You need to keep your Let's trythis again. As you sit here,
do you recall mentioning the jeep?I would have to reread the transcript.
You don't have to reread the transcriptand answer that question. Do you
recall mentioning the cheek? If youdon't, you don't. I may not
have been asked about the jeep,so I did not mention the jeep?

(47:45):
Did you and mister Higgins between thenand now you know the day of the
incident, and now have you everhad a conversation with mister Higgins about where
his jeep was parked? Now,have you ever had a conversation with mister
Higgins about anything having to do withthis case. I do not believe so
did anyone leaving mister Higgins aside?Did anyone tell you anything about mister Higgins's

(48:10):
jeep and what he testified to.Now, when you're ever asked by anybody
to mention a jeep being behind thisreads suv in this trial, can you
repeat the question please? You're everasked by anybody to make sure you mention

(48:32):
a jeep being parked behind this readssuv in this trial, not that I
recall him. Now, after youarrived and you noticed this suv outside,
you started paying somewhat close attention toit, did you not? I went
to the front door and looked outthe window at the vehicle. Yes.

(48:52):
As a matter of fact, youtexted as soon as you saw the vehicle
that twelve twenty seven here right cracked. And then a few minutes later,
at twelve thirty one, you textedpull behind me to John is that right
cracked? And then at twelve fortyyou texted hello correct correct, And at

(49:16):
twelve forty two you texted where areyou cracked? And at twelve forty five
you texted hello correct cracked. Sothat's five text messages, and each time
you texted him you were walking tothe door and looking out at the vehicle
as you're texting. Correct. Iknow for the first two I was you

(49:40):
testified at another hearing of another proceedingon June eighth, twenty twenty three.
Correct. Correct in that other proceeding, did you testify that you got up
and sat down and got up andsat down every time you were texting?
Possibly? Okay, So if yougot up and walked over to the door

(50:05):
and you see the suv and youtext, and then you walk away from
the door and sit down for asecond, that would be one text and
one view of the sub correct.So if you did that at twelve twenty
seven, twelve thirty one, twelveforty, twelve forty two, and twelve
forty five, you degree, that'sfive times that you were up and down

(50:27):
looking at the suv. Correct.I'm not sure if I did it five
times? How many times do youthink you did do it? I know
I definitely did it the first oneI said here. I know I definitely
did it when I said pull behindme, because that's when the vehicle had
moved up a little bit, andthen did you see the fable to move
up again a second time? Yes, that's when I told him to pull

(50:49):
behind me. Okay, So that'sthe first time, so we're clear.
When you first saw the suv,it was station here. Correct. When
I first saw the vehicle, itwas straight ahead out the front door,
stationary, and you texted here.Correct. Then you walked back over to
the window, I'm sorry, tothe door, to the storm door,
and you said pull behind me.Correct. At twelve thirty one correct.

(51:13):
Right at that point you saw thatit had moved up a little bit,
is that right? Yes? Okay, So if you saw it move up
a second time, which you justsaid you did, then that would be
a third time that you had tohave seen it and texted correct. Why
would that be third time? Isit only moved once? So far you
saw it move twice. So thefirst time I saw it it was here

(51:36):
and I said here, and thenthe next time I texted, I said
pull behind me. So that wasone time two times going you said,
you show it pull up again asecond time, So you shaw it move
twice from one place of the flagpole to further up. So that's great

(51:59):
time joke to the door. Okay, Yes, I'm telling you my memory
is twice to the doors. TheKate, it's some trick question. You
just testified that you saw the carmove twice. By definition, that has
to be you looked at it threetimes stationary move once moved twice. Maybe
I use the wrong wording. MaybeI'm gonna have just a moment on sure.

(52:38):
So when you testified in front ofthis other proceeding, didn't you tell
didn't you testify that you walked upand sat that down five different times,
watching that car and texting every singleUh? Would you be able to show

(53:01):
me that I gonna take a minute, Yeah there, yes, mm hm.

(54:05):
Take a look at those four pagesfor the record. That's uh pages
seventy eighty and seventy four okay,based based on after you've had a chance
to review that. Just look upand let me up. M hm h

(54:42):
yeah h h yah yahm Yes,you had an opportunity just became to review

(55:40):
those few pages from your testimony inJune of twenty twenty three. Yes,
did you talk about you were askedabout going getting up and sitting down and
looking at the sub several different timesand testing yes, in fact, you
indicated that you got up and TechEdand sorry, got up and looked outside

(56:00):
through that storm door several times.Correct. Yes, And as a matter
of fact, you looked every singletime that you texted. You indicated that
you looked out at the suv andsaw something that prompted you to text something
correct. Correct. And then afterthe last time, which would be five
times five texts, five looks afterthe last time you texted, you've got

(56:22):
the back doone to be a sixthtime and the sub storm just chronologically correct.
My husband and I were both gudingup and looking, so I didn't
ask you about your husband. Okay, how about you? The answers correct,
Yes, Okay, So you're indicatingthat you were trying to communicate with

(56:45):
the occupant of the SUV that wassitting What would you say, thirty v
outside the front door. I'm notgood with testants. It's further than you
and I are from each other.Correct. Correct, at least doubt that
correct? Okay, So could yougive me maybe yards are easier? Many

(57:06):
yards? Fifteen yards? Again,I'm not good with measurements. Okay,
just right outside the front door themthen straight outside, yes, well,
straight outside until it looked at thefront door of the front door. Is
where twas okay, straight outside untilit moved according to you? Correct,
yes, and then it moved correct, and then moved the second time.
Correct, it moved to the flagpole, and then it moved up again.

(57:29):
Okay. Then you indicated that youhad an absolutely clear view of the SUV.
You're asked those questions. Correct ifI had a clear view, clear
view, I could see the carout front. Yes. You were asked,
you're looking out the front door ofthe house. Your answer was,
uh huh. You're asked, andthere's a window in that door, right

(57:52):
answer it was opened. Yeah.Question so you had a clear view outside?
Answer a clear view out yes?Remember that? Yes? Okay?
And is that your memory? Youhad a clear view I had a clear
view of Karen's vehicle outside. Correct. And then you reiterated that with the

(58:15):
following exchange. Question was the amountof snow sufficient? So let's hear the
question. Was the amount of snowcoming down sufficient to obstruct your view of
the vehicle or did you have aclear view of it? Answer? I
had a good view of it.Obtection. The addition is to the formula
question and the reading that's okay.I'm going to allow of the questions.

(58:37):
Was that your tesimony? Yes,So not only did you have a clear
view, you indicated in your wordsyou had a good viewer, right correct.
Then you noticed that the SUV wasgone after the twelve to forty five
texts right cracked. So you're lookingat that suv overen course of between the
beginning text and the intext about nineteenminutes right, twelve twenty seven or so

(59:02):
to twelve forty five, eighteen nineteenminutes something like that? Correct? We
maybe not a minute because you've gottenback up and didn't text because you need
was gone right? Correct? Soyou would agree we just do some basic
math. You're looking at that SUVon average about every three three and a
half minutes. I guess I'm ifyou want to pull out at the times

(59:24):
and then you can look at them. Well, we talked about the times,
and you've agreed that you were textingbetween twelve twenty seven and twelve forty
five, correct, right, Soif you were just to divide that by
five times, nothing looking. Idon't know, I do the math in
might head. Maybe it take methree minutes? You saw correct? At

(59:45):
no time did you hear any noiseor sound outside that was unusual? Touching?
Now, you didn't hear any squealingtires or stealing your brakes. Now,
you didn't hear any screaming or yelling. No, I didn't hear any
loud voices or foul language or doorslam. Now. You didn't hear any
verbal argument or the revving of anengine anything like that. Now a matter

(01:00:07):
of fact, you didn't hear anycollision or crash, did you Now?
A matter of fact, the entiretime that you looked out at that vehicle,
with that clear and that good view, you didn't see anything out of
the ordinary, did you now?And you would agree with me. As
you looked at the suv, you'relooking over the bond to the suv out

(01:00:30):
of the street. Correct. Therewas no obstruction between you and the suv.
You've already testified to that. Isthat right? Correct? And you
could see everything in your field ofview. Correct? And then you saw
the suv gone. It hadn't drivenaway after twelve forty five. Correct.

(01:00:51):
So I have a question, missdude, where was the body? I
have no idea. I'm assuming thebody was on the front line. The
problem with that is you were looking. I was looking at the vehicle and

(01:01:12):
where it had moved. Do youknow what the field of view? Would
you like to explain it? Youhad a clear and good view across that
lawn to the SUV, didn't youwhen it was straight out? I did.
Yes. If you had a clearand good view of SGV the entire
time until it left, didn't Icould see the black suv. Correct,

(01:01:36):
Nothing was instructing your vision. Iwasn't looking at the ground. I didn't
ask you about the ground yet.We'll get to the ground. Nothing was
obstructing your vision, was it.No, So you had a clear and
good yours mine, A clear andgood view of the suv, Yes,
and everything in front of it.I never said everything in front of it.

(01:01:58):
I saw the SUV. It's black, it has lights on, and
as it moved, I could seeit with its lights. And you had
a clear view of everything between youand the SUV, all the things closer
to you and the sun. Iwouldn't say that. So your view was
obstructed on what was between you andthe SUV, but not obstructed on the

(01:02:20):
SUV. That's not what I wassaying. No, of course not,
because if you had a clear fieldof view to the suv. You could
see everything, in fact, meaningbetween you and the suv as well.
If I'm looking straight out at ansuv, I'm not looking down at the
grounds. A question about that,you're focusing right now on my face.
Yes, as you're answering these questions, I think you'd see I don't know,

(01:02:43):
an alligator sitting in front of meif it was there, chection,
No, I think you would seesomething. Can you clearly see that there
is nothing between you and me exceptthe podium? Yes, well there's a
table and you don't have to lookdown to see that, right. Correct,
you're looking directly in my face,but you can see things that are
between you and me because you havea field of vision right projection. So

(01:03:07):
I'm going to see councilate sidebar forjust a minute. Yes, okay,
As you looked over that flat lawnwith that good and clear view of the

(01:03:30):
suv, you could see the suvand everything between you and the suv.
Correct. When I looked out thefront window, I could see the suv
clearly like I'm looking at you wellright now, and it was further away
than you are, and you didit not once, not twice, did

(01:03:51):
five times? And then a sixthafter it was gone right, correct,
And after that sub was gone andyou looked out that window with that clear
and good view, there was nobody was there. I never saw our
body, thank you. I wishI had it. Sounds like that's a

(01:04:13):
little rehearsed. Not at all,it's not at all. I'll of the
answers to you left the location about? Is that right? Yes? You
didn't see anything out of the ordinariesyou got in was it your car or
mister mccage's car when you got inthat suv of yours? You didn't see

(01:04:38):
anything out of the ordinary outside?Correct, I wasn't looking outside. Okay,
I know that that is the answerthat you want to give into every
question. My question is yes,or did you see anything out of the
wner? No? Thank you.You didn't see anything out of the ordinary
when you got in the vehicle.Now, you didn't see anything out of
the ordinary when the vehicle backed up. Now that vehicle turned to the I

(01:05:02):
guess it would be to the rightto leave towards Chapman and the headlights illuminating
the area in the front of me. Didn't see anything or I wasn't looking
out the front window. Again,there's that question, I mean, there's
that answer. My question is didyou see anything on orton? Well,
you were asking about the headlights outthe front. That's why I said,
I didn't see anything out there front. You didn't see the headlights turned off?

(01:05:27):
I was turned to the back.Right. Did you see that the
headlights came on with the car?Yes, in the driveway, the headlights
came on. Correct. So thepointing to you, You got in the
car and immediately interested yourself, directedto the ear and never turned up around
and never looked outside the windows.Correct, got it? Is it normal

(01:05:47):
for you? Yeah, I'm avery chatty person. So I turned to
talk to the girls. So youmade sure that you didn't look out the
window. Nope, that's not itat all. You also didn't hear any
bud. You did hear some ofthe girls from the back, since they
were so chatting Papa about bread andsandwich or something. Right, Correct,

(01:06:08):
But you never heard anybody say anythingabout noticing anything out of the ordinary?
Correct? Correct. You didn't hearJulie Nagel say that she saw a black
object in the yard. Never heardthat, But you would turned around,
look at her right act? Whatdo you correct? Correct? Indeed,
engaging them in conversation, according toyou, correct so that you could make

(01:06:29):
sure that you weren't looking out thefront or right windows. Sure, can
you answer that? Is that whyyou did it? No, that's not
why I did it. I wastalking to the two girls. When you
got home, what did you do? I went up to bed. What
time do you think you got home? Somewhere after approximately between two and two

(01:06:51):
fifteen. I'm it took you afew minutes to drop the girls off.
Correct. When you got home,you got on your phone, right?
Yes, Before you got on yourphone, you went upstairs to your bedroom.
Yes? Did you use any applications? Well, let me ask it

(01:07:13):
this way. First, did youmake any phone calls just using your phone?
In phone calls after you got home, either downstairs or or I do
not believe so. Did you useany applications to communicate with anybody through Wi
Fi? Do you know what Imean by that? Bay sign audio or
what'sapp? Phone calls? Things likethat text message? No, actually you

(01:07:35):
may not use these, but I'masking did you use any kind of third
party app use Wi Fi? DOIPcalls? Other than just a phone call.
No, okay, sounds like youdon't even know what that is.
I don't even know what you're talkingabout. Fair, So it's safe to
say that you didn't use or youdon't use any multimedia to communicate. You

(01:07:57):
don't use FaceTime or snapchat or signalor anything like that. I've used FaceTime
with my children, yes, forphone calls. Now, a FaceTime audio
is a way that you can makea call. No, I've facetimed with
my kids at school. But that'svideos. Oh okay, so yeah,
I guess not. You didn't dothat that night either, not that I

(01:08:18):
re coll did you? Now I'mgoing to get back to your question.
Did you text anybody? I did? Yes? Did you text? I
texted my sisters, and I textedmy husband and a friend in a group
chat. You texted your husband andhad a friend in a group chat.

(01:08:39):
Yes, Yes, your husband washome. Yes. I want to switch
gears for a second and ask youreal quick about later that morning when you
went to John o your house.You mentioned on Friday that you went into
his house and began to look aroundfor him when you first got there with

(01:09:00):
Harry Roberts and my client Karen readcorrect. Yes, you indicated that you
saw you looked in his bedroom andsaw that the bed was made correct.
Yes, you also looked. Youindicated that you looked around other parts of
the house looking for um, searchingfor him. Is that right? Yes?
You obviously saw the blankets and pillowson the couch downstairs in the leaving
room. Correct. I peeked overat the couch. And you're aware that

(01:09:26):
Karen Reid stayed on the couch thatnight to wait for John to come home.
I am not aware of that.Now. You testified on Friday that
my client said at the scene andyou got back to the scene thirty fourth
fair View just after six am.But she said I hit him three times?

(01:09:51):
She declared it correct, correct,not once, not twice, three
times? I hit him, Ihit him, I hit him correct.
Correct. You have a very specificmemory of that event, do you not?
I do. Obviously. That's anincredibly impactful thing for you to memory,

(01:10:12):
for you to remember, is thatright? It was an impactful statement.
Yes, And you remember it todayas well as you remembered the day
she did it. Yeah. Andthey have just a moment, kay man.

(01:10:43):
Yes, it's just the entirety I'mgoing to hand you a document.
Did you before I ask you aboutthat specific document? Did you review anything
before you testify in preparations for yourtestimony today? Credit? Yes, your
view your grand jury testimony? Idid yees a thing? Understood me?

(01:11:10):
You did review your grandjary testimony correct? Yes, But the document in front
of you you recognize it? Yes, that is, in fact, a
true and correct copy of your grandjury testimony on which you gave on April
twenty sixth, twenty twenty two.Is that right? Correct? You'll agree
that your testimony in that case,in that hearing, rather in April of

(01:11:32):
twenty twenty two, that was justa few months after the events in quite
right? Yes, you were underoath at the time that you gave that
testimony. Yes, and you weresubject to the penalty of perjury when you're
answering those questions, correct, Yes, let's bekase. I'd like you to
turn to the page since you've reviewedthis, turn to the page for that
document where you ever said in yourtestimony my client said I hit him,

(01:11:56):
I hit him, I hit him? Was I asked what you said?
I did to ask questions? Well, I'd like you to direct me where
to look. I want you tolook at the entire grandury testimony if you
need to. In terms of thepage where you ever said that my clients
said I hit him, I hithim, I hit him. I'm not

(01:12:18):
sure if it's in this document,but I can tell you today with one
hundred percent clarity, she said Ihit him, I hit him, I
hit him on that morning. Soit's not in that document, is I'm
not sure if I could take thetime, and do you want me to
read to over two hundred pages.Yes, no, I don't want to

(01:12:43):
take it out of it because youjust indicated that you reviewed this document in
anticipation. M right, correct,So you've got over it recently, a
few weeks back, so we don'tneed to read it. You know that
you never testified to that in thegrand jury in April and twenty twenty two,
don't you. I don't know thatas a fact. I would have
to reread two hundred and twenty twopages or however long it is you think

(01:13:06):
you might have missed it when youreviewed your testimony and anticipation for I'm sorry,
when you reviewed your transcript and anticipationfor your testimony objection, I read
it a few weeks ago. It'sprobably the most powerful part of your testimony,
ma'am, and I will never forgetit. Okay, So that's stricken.

(01:13:28):
Would you agree? Do you thinkthat's a powerful part of your testimony?
Oh? That it is? Yes? Did you see it in the
transcript? I cannot recall. It'sover two hundred pages, yes, yes,
much pages. I'm just going toshow you question. These are select

(01:14:00):
pages out of your grand period oftestimony. Isn't it true, miss mccaid,
that you were asked when you testifiedno fewer than twelve times what my
clients said either at the scene oron the way to the scene. At

(01:14:29):
the scene, I was asked twiceaccording to this I question. Isn't it
true that, on being April oftwenty twenty two, you testified no fewer
than twelve times twelve separate statements yougave about what my client's statements were either
at the scene or in the carride on the leading up to go into

(01:14:54):
the scene. You remember that,I do, okay, So on page
one ninety of what you're looking atyou should all be highlighted. It is
you testified that my client said toyou over the phone at four fifty three
am, she asked the question didI hit him? You see that?

(01:15:14):
I do number two? On pageone ninety two, talking about when y'all
were in the car on the wayto the scene, Karen asked the question,
could I have hit him? Yousee that? Yes? Page three,
lines one through two. You testifythat In the car, once again,

(01:15:39):
she asked the question could she havehit him? You were relating that
meaning could I have hit it?Correct? Cracked, page one ninety three,
line twenty three. In John's driveway, she asked the question quote,
and she's asking if she could havehit him? Yes, page two oh

(01:16:00):
one. Driving to Fairview, sheasked the question what if I hit him?
And could I have hit him?Correct? Cracked, page two oh
two, lines one through two.While driving to Fairview, she asked the
question could I have hit him?Cracked page two oh eight, lines twenty

(01:16:24):
four through twenty five. Outside atFairview, she asked the question did I
hit him? And went on toask could I have hit him? Correct?
Cracked? And your testimony was alsoon page two oh eight that Karen
was yelling NonStop in front of thefemale EMT did I hit him? Could

(01:16:46):
I have hit him? Is hedead. Correct, cracked there, I
approached. Yes. That's twelve timesthat you reiterated under oath under penalty of

(01:17:08):
perjury in April of twenty twenty two, when my client's statements were either at
the scene or leading up to getinto the scene. Correct. Every single
one of those twelve separate times youindicated that she asked a question something like
could I have hit him? Ordid I hit him? Correct? Correct?

(01:17:29):
Not one time in that testimony didyou say she declared I hit him,
I hit him, I hit him. Did you the questions that were
asked when she said I hit him, I hit him, I hit him.
That was at the scene in responseto an officer asking questions. What
I just read was us when shefirst called me, or when we were

(01:17:55):
driving in the car, or whenwe were at John's house. So I
was answering the question that I wasasked. So you believed that you weren't
asked the question did she say toan officer I hit him, I hit
him, I hit him? Andif you're not asked the question, did
she say to an officer I hithim him, I hit him. You're
not going to volunteer that she saidI hit him I hit him. That's

(01:18:17):
no, that's not my testimony.Is officer was asking her what his name
was and different things about him,and at that point she was saying,
I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Which officer I
do not recall. Well, yourecalled me I hit him. He just
told me that was the most impactfulthing in the morning. It was.

(01:18:40):
It was shocking. So what officerdid she say this? To your closure?
I was more focused on her andher hysteria than which officer was asking
the question. So you have noidea who the officer was either correct,
I'm not sure which officer was askingher. I could have been an empt
someone said what is his name?Does he have medical conditions? How old
is he? But you were askedthat question, ma'am on page two hundred

(01:19:01):
and eight. You were asked whatshe said in front of the female E.
M. T. Who was askingher questions, and her answer was
I'm sorry. Your answer was shesaid, did I hit him? Could
I have hit him? Is hedead? Is that right? That is
correct? That's that's been a goodtime to offer up. She confessed I'd

(01:19:21):
hit him. I hit him,I hit him, right. Ojection stands
to that form BIS because the truthof the matter is you've manufactured this new
story for this jury because you thinkit helps you out. Absolutely not.
You called nine one one at sixor four am? Is that right?

(01:19:43):
Yes, your honor? What thecourt's permission exhibit are even Mark intern,
I would ask to play a portionof that nine one take not gonna be
retired of it? Okay, withthe courts permission, I'd ask to play

(01:20:15):
about runtime one thirty to one five. Yes, do you recognize the voice
on that tape? Yes, that'smy appear to be a true inaccurate at
least that portion and true and accuratereporting. Denied one one call that you

(01:20:38):
made. It was a very brief, cliff, I'd have to hear more.
I was going to play starting atruntime one run. Is that you?

(01:20:59):
Yes? It was? Yes,it was? And what did you
just say? I said, Idon't know, he got out of the
car. He got out of thecar. What you said? Correct?
And this was at six o threein the morning? Correct? Correct?
This is before you ever talked toBrian Albert? Correct? Well you ever

(01:21:21):
talk to your sister Nicole over correct, before you ever talked to Chris ever?
Correct? Well, you ever talkedto Julia. Correct. You didn't
talk to anybody at this point otherthan Karrie Robbers correct and Karen Reid correct.
And that nine one one call yousaid he got out of the car.

(01:21:45):
I did because Karen Reid had toldme that she had left him there.
Your words were, he got outof the car? Correct? Correct?
Did you make any other calls otherthan to nine one one? I
called my sister. What time wasthat? I believe it was after the
nine one one? But I'm notsure. Claim that your sister didn't answer?

(01:22:11):
All right, she did not answer, But you do know that your
phone instruction shows that that was ananswer called at six o seven, if
that's what it chowse. But Ican tell you she did not answer the
phone. And you are sure aboutthat as you are my clients that I
hit him a three times, right, I certainly am, Yes, perfectly.

(01:22:33):
You also called her at six o'way. I might have called her
twice, yes, I have.At this made me as good a time
as any to take a break.If you wish, I could just have
to cue it up and stuff toyou. I don't want folks will take
out morning a lot included. HYeah, maybe so mister Jackson, when

(01:23:34):
you said it's an exhibit, isit in evidence? Not? How?
Okay? Past market, It's adigital recording of a four minute for smil
on John O'Keefe's phone. It doesinclude a nine to one one call.
I don't want to play the entiretyof the number one call, but I
do want to play the entirety ofthis particular four minute. Okay, do

(01:23:57):
you know what it is, misterLelly? I do? Okay, So
is there an agreement that it's comingin? There's no objection to it?
Okay, all right? I justneeded to know if I need it would
make sense for me to review itif there was an objection, all right?
Please, Hey there, Karen Reidtrial watchers. This is a long
crime legal alert. Google Incognito trackedusers browsing data without their knowledge. Yep,

(01:24:18):
Well, Mass Toward Alliance, oneof our legal sponsors, is actually
helping users file for compensation due toissues surrounding Google users' privacy through their incognito
browser. So if you've used Googleincognito anytime since twenty sixteen, you can
start your claim in less than tenquestions at incognitoclaims dot com slash LC lot

(01:24:46):
you are unneeded, Thank you BBCsession. So, mister Jackson, is
it all cued up or do weneed the well, we need the witness.
But are there any questions first orwere you just going to the video
questions? Okay, let's bring thismckabe in. Okay, whenever you're ready,

(01:25:18):
mister Jackson, thank him your honor. It's I want to go back
very briefly to something you said justbefore we broke, and that was in
respect of the statements that you attributeto my client out of the scene.
You said, well, there wasan officer possibly asking questions for it could
have been a female E and Tand I wasn't answering questions about fat right

(01:25:43):
answer, You didn't say I hithim, I hit him, my hit
Can you be clear on your question? Let me rephrase that before we broke
a few minutes ago, you hadsaid the reason I didn't say I hit
him, I hit him, Ihit him because I was never asked and
the subject never came up about whenan officer asked her and she declared that
or just didn't offer him. Andthen you said, or it could have

(01:26:03):
been an EMT. Yes, I'mNtclair who was there. Isn't it true
that at the grand jury? Thequestion that was posed to you, missus
counsel page to Lowe eight. Thequestion that was posed to you is,
quote, so where does what happensnext with yourself, Miss Roberts and Miss

(01:26:27):
Reid? And your answer was sothere are different you know, police officers
getting statements from us. At onepoint, I'm standing with Miss Reid and
she's saying did I hit him?Could I have hit him? And there
was I believe an EMT a femalestanding right in that for me look into
her yelling did I hit him?Could I have hit him? Is he

(01:26:51):
dead? Is he dead? Ishe dead? It was pretty much non
stop a moment. I do soin point of fact, you were answering
the direct question about what happened infront of the police officer and the EUT.
Correct. There were multiple police officersin multiple e mts present, So

(01:27:12):
now this is another police officer ina different years. I'm not saying that,
okay, but nowhere is this didyou say she declared the words?
Correct? Correct? You're all right? Have a I would like to have
marked as nice to order. Okay, yeah, yes, I read it

(01:27:41):
in one of that thank you thecoort permission. I would like to play
a portion of this and then stopit. Okay, that's what There's a
couple of questions about it. Okay, it's audible. Yeah, h h

(01:28:10):
h h K. That's the case. I've paused the audio tape just to

(01:28:36):
ask you a couple of foundational questions. Do you recognize what's on that audio
tape? Yes? That is myvoice? Okay, you recognize you starting
a nine to one. Correct,someone's been called we just listened to a
few minutes ago, which was actualnine one one. What's the difference between
the two, and I'm about toexplain it. It's a it's a confusing

(01:28:59):
question. I pologize. This appearsto be a open voicemail overhearing your nine
to one one call. Do yourecognize that now that you explain it?
Okay? Do you hear a rhythmicboom the windshowd ripe rice? Okay?
So that would have been that wasmy next question. That would have been

(01:29:20):
an open voicemail that was recording insidethe cab of the suv that you re
seated in correct, correct, overhearingyou call nine to one one, and
overhearing whatever else was going on andgetting noise at the scene? Correct?
Correct? Does that sound like thetrue direct copy of at least the portion
would the nine to one one calledthat you heard? You have to listen

(01:29:43):
to it again, but well,what do we continue listening to it and
see if you recognize it? Okay? With your information? Yes, it's
about one it's about four minutes intotal, of your honor, I don't

(01:30:14):
hear do you hear a person inthe background screaming? Yes? Who's that?
Miss reade? Queen? I hadnot been in me up in her

(01:31:57):
right and I don't want to lookingat Did you hear the audio recording we

(01:33:10):
just marked indevidence I did. Itwas very muffled and some parts were very
hard to understand. Understood the personon the phone? Who was that horse?
I called nine on mine? Andthe person that was for the most
part the person's voice that you couldhear stringing telling for hysterical who was that

(01:33:30):
Karen? Could you also hear carryRobert's voice at various times in the background.
Yes, and she was the lackof a better word, trying to
calm hearing down. Yes, atsome points on her it was just you're
not helping. Yes, exactly becauseshe was so hysterical and so upset erratic.

(01:33:54):
I want to play the rest ofthis. It appears that this recording
is longer than your nine to oneone call. You would agree with that,
well, i'd have to see.Well, the nine one one calls
already ended, correct, I'm notsure how long was the nine one one
call? Okay, this is aboutthree and a half minutes into a four
minute recording. My only question is, would you agread it? The nine

(01:34:16):
to one one call is to subsumewithin this full four minute recording. I
couldn't make that from that muffled Youcouldn't tell me. I couldn't tell.
So if you have my phone record, you could. I'm assuming tell when
month before the nine one one callended, because I know the nine one
one call was long because they weremultiple the you know they had transferred me

(01:34:38):
multiple times. Right. My questionto you is, I'd like you to
listen very very closely, and Iknow that it is a muffled recording.
From this point forward, I wantyou to pay very close attention. I
wanted to ask you if you heara voice very muffled when you think of

(01:34:58):
this retord? Yes, did youhear a muffled voice in the foreground.
After we heard this reading screaming yellow, I heard two people talking. One

(01:35:27):
of those was a very muffled voiceon this recording. Correct, most of
the recording was muffled. The oneI'm talking about is I just played the
voice that was muffled in in theforeground of the audio recording. The first
yes you just I heard that?Yes? Was that you? I don't
I'm going I don't know if thatwas me. There's nobody else in the

(01:35:48):
cabin the car with you. Iwas standing at the trunk of the car.
Outside of the car. Arry Robertswas oh, by agree, Yes,
they were kind of running back andfor at at times and for most
of that Yes, but you werethe one buy the car, back and

(01:36:10):
forth. You called Nicole, yoursister. But can we finished playing this
just for okay? Thank you?Okay, that appears to be the end

(01:36:40):
of tape. Okay, okay,Uh you called your sister at six o
seven and forty two seconds. Correct. I don't have my phone record in
front of me, because that soundsabout right approximately, And you've made a
second phone call at six so eightand seventeen seconds. Does that sound about

(01:37:01):
right. I did call her twice, Yes, and both of those calls
show in your extraction that they wereanswering the phone calls. Right, I
don't have my extraction in front ofme. Well, you've been asked this
question a bunch of times. Right. You were asked this question that the
other proceeding is that right? Yes, and then shown phone records. Well,

(01:37:25):
if you have them, I couldsee them here. You were shown
phone records, then yes, Andat that time you were confronted with the
fact that the phone records show aseven second call for six or seven direction.
I'm going to strike the word confronted. Go ahead and ask people,
go ahead and ask the questions.We showed evidence that the six or seven
call lasted seven seconds. My sisternever answered the phone. Okay, I

(01:37:50):
know you want to answer your oldquestions. Yeah, i'd I'll get you
to answer my question. Were youshown records that showed the call lasted seven
seconds? I cannot recall the exactrecord I was shown, but I was
shown a phone record, okay,and you were shown that the same phone
records showed that the six oh eightcall lasted eight seconds. Right, Again,

(01:38:14):
I don't have it in front ofme about writing about right, and
there were a number of other callsthat showed answered that weren't answered. Well,
well did those in a minute?So the two calls at six oh
seven six oh eight, at leastthe records indicate about fifteen seconds worth of
open line time talk time seven seconds, eight seconds. Right, you have

(01:38:36):
the record in front of you.I don't just asking if you were in
front of if you were that wordagain, if you were shown records that
established it based on your phone phoneextraction, your phone records that the six
oh seven call, seven second call, eight call was an eight cent right.
I was shown records, but Idon't know exactly what they were,

(01:39:00):
how long the call said because shenever answered the phone. Regardless, you
also made another phone called six three, did you not so, Brian Albert,
if you had my could share myphone record, it would be very
helpful you would call it. Iknow I called my sister and I called
my brother in law in the house. I do not know the exact times

(01:39:25):
you made a phone call to BrianAbbots well, right, I believe so
that was around six twenty three.It was a few minutes after you had
called Nicole twice, right, correct, and that call was non answered.
None of them were answered, butthe record showed that that call was not
answered as opposed to Nicoles to calls, right right, Okay, the calls

(01:39:56):
to Nicole was deleted from your phonebefore you turn that phone into laller force.
Not by me, by somebody else. I never deleted any calls when
I willingly handed my phone over.You claim that you didn't delete calls,
but you do know that your phonewas forensically analyzed and those calls were in

(01:40:16):
the deleted file forward, correct.I have seen that. But there were
twenty calls, all in a group, that were all deleted. So cherry
picking a few makes it look adifferent way. Okay, So we'll get
to those. I'm not sure topicking any Okay, ask me questions about
the rest, which I would lovea copy of if I could see.

(01:40:38):
We'll get to that in a second. It's going by your memory. You've
seen these records in a bunch oftimes. You've been questioned about these records
on the calls, right, yes, okay, So we know that you
called at six oh seven, sixo eight or there else and about six
twenty three two to Nicole one toBrian. Right, correct, and you

(01:41:00):
will agree with me that notwithstanding thosephone calls. By the way, did
you leave voicemails? Now, whendid you hang up before it went to
voicemail or was it into voicemail beforeyou hung up? So it's a bit
of a hysterical scene that morning,and I was in a state of shock,
and I was just calling my sisteror my brother in law. They
did not answer the phone. Icannot tell you when I hung up because

(01:41:25):
it was a hysterical scene. Iwas in a state of shock. Everyone
was running around, and what seemsto be forgotten is that my friend was
lying there on the ground. Idon't think anybody's forgotten you, in fact,
did not lead voicemails or any ofthose three calls, did you.

(01:41:46):
Again, I don't have my phonerecord in front of me. That's because
the didn't getting voicemails. The callswere answered, right, the calls were
not answered. You agree with methat Brian and Nicole Albert Brian Albert,
being a police never came out ofthe house. Correct, Neither did any

(01:42:11):
neighbor. I know you'd like tocontinue editorializing him. In fact, it's
probably a time and a place forit. This isn't it? If you
can answer my question, I'd askdid you do that? Should Brian Albert
come out of the house? No? Did Nicole Albert come out of the
house? No? Than how manyof the initial police officers from Heaton Police

(01:42:38):
Department who responded to the scene wereyou friends with? I would say I
am friendly with Mike Lank. Hewas a few five years older than me.
I knew him. I knew himgrowing up. If I saw him
around town, I would say,hey, how are you pretty much that's

(01:43:00):
the extent anybody else other than MikeLank, that's you're friends with, Not
that I am friends with. Iknew of Officer Sean Good, but I
wouldn't say I was friends with him. I just knew who he was.
And you also knew that Officer Blankwas very good friends with the Albert family,
good friends. Yes, you knewthat Mike Blank and Chris Albert had

(01:43:24):
a long time, long standing friendship. Correct. Correct? You just indicated
you also knew Officer Good. Isthat right? Didn't know him? I
said I knew of him? Okay. With regard to names like Sarah Blaine,
not so much. Sarah has asister. That's the same age as

(01:43:44):
my sister. But I had never, to my knowledge, met Sarah.
And of all the officers who respondedto the scene, the two who actually
went inside the Albert home to talkto Brian Albert and others was, in
fact Mike Blank An Officer Good.I don't remember Officer Good in the house.

(01:44:05):
I only remember Officer Lank. Thereason you know that, the reason
you have a memory of what washappening inside the house because you were allowed
to actually go into that home,correct, correct? And you went into
that home before any of the officerswent into the home, is that right?
Correct? You were allowed to haveprivate conversations with Brian Albert. I

(01:44:26):
woke Brian Albert. Were you allowedto have private conversations with Brian Albert?
Yes? And you were allowed tohave private conversations with your sister and Nicole.
Yes. That was before the policeever went in to do any formal
interviews of you, Brian Portable correct? Correct? Did you discuss in these
private conversations how you three were goingto answer any questions for the police when

(01:44:49):
you were asked? Now, didyou talk about what you were going to
say in any respect? We werein shock, There was no Now,
did you talk about what Brian andNicole we're going to say in their interviews
with the police. Now, didyou give any did Brian Albert give you
any advice as a police detective whatyou should do or say when you were

(01:45:10):
interviewed? Now? Did he giveyou any advice as a police detective what
you should do with your cell phone? Now? Did you did he tell
you that the police might want toget a hold of your cell phone at
some point? Now? Did youtwo discuss the calls that you made to
Nicole Albert at six oh seven andsix oh eight and the call that you
made to Brian Albert at six twentythree? Now, did you ever discuss

(01:45:35):
the idea of potentially deleting any ofthose calls were made that early morning?
Absolutely not. Would you tell usif he did, Yes, because I'm
an honest and truthful person. Didyou tell him which officers were outside?
I don't recall. Don't tell himthe offer on the Albert was outside?

(01:46:00):
I don't recall. And then yourhusband, Matt became arrived at the scene.
Correct, Correct, he was allowedto come in the house as well.
Right. I believe office Alank wasin the house before Matt came into
the house, and a little bitlater that morning, Julie Albert came over.

(01:46:20):
Correct. Correct, by the wayofficer link after just a few minutes
that left the house correct, correcked, leading all the witnesses inside together.
Correct. And I can't remember ifI asked this question, just thought it
out loud. Did Julie Albert comeover? She did? And then Chris
came over. Yes, even BrianHiggins came over. Correct. These are

(01:46:44):
all friends and family of yours.Correct. Not Brian Higgins I had only
met a handful of times. Butyou consider him a friend and a friend
of Brian Albert's is how I wouldreference him fair enough? So these are
friends and family of Brian Albert.Correct. And everyone was permitted to discuss

(01:47:08):
the circumstances of the evening before goingthe early morning hours with each other with
no police there? Correct? Isat with my family in chalk and Hoa.
Were you allowed to discuss the circumstancesof the night before going into the
early morning hours amongst yourselves without anypolice presence? There was no reason for

(01:47:28):
us to be allowed or not allowed. We did nothing wrong. My question,
did you get it? Yes?I understand your question. You answered.
Were you allowed that group of folks? Were you allowed to discuss the
case without a police press? Yes? So you listened during that friends and
family gathering. You listened to whatBrian Albert had to say. Right,

(01:47:53):
he didn't really say much. Hewas able to listen to what you had
to say. Again, you're creatinga scene that didn't happen anything, miss
McCabe. I'm asking some questions.What to answer raction you're on it all
right, So let's ask a questionand let's get an answer. Okay,
yes or no? R I alwere there within your shot, and you

(01:48:14):
discussed your version of what had happened. I didn't discuss my match. I
sat there in shock and hora.So I spoke very little, To be
honest with you, you did speak. He could hear yes and yes,
and Chris Chris came much later,and your husband, Matt McKay, he
could hear yes, okay. Andthen when Chris is talking about what happened

(01:48:36):
at what I called, you couldhear and ran here. In other words,
everybody could hear, but Chris camemuch later. I when Chris came,
I was almost about to leave.I'm guessing that the topic of what
had happened was still on everybody's mind. Everybody was trying to figure out what
had happened and discussing it amongst yourselves. That's my point with my sister and

(01:49:00):
my brother in law and my husband. Correct, before you left, you
said you were about to leave.Before you left, another albur came over
to the house. Correct. Idon't recall seeing him, Kevin Albert.

(01:49:21):
How'd you know I was talking aboutKevin Albert because you said another Albert came
over and I was six brothers.I was told later it was Kevin.
So you believe that Kevin was notthere when you were still there. I
was in a state of shock.He may have walked in, you remember,
I don't remember it now. Hecould have been absolutely and you knew

(01:49:42):
he was a Canton police officer.Yes, you had already gotten a call
from Michael Proctor, hadn't you?Yes, I told you he wanted to
speak with you. Correct, Soyou knew at that point that the Massachusetts
State Police troopers had taken over thetaken over the investigation of the case.
Correct. Correct. Did Michael Proctortell you that the can And Police Department
had been refused from the case.Projection assistent, let me ask it a

(01:50:04):
different way. Did you have knowledgein any way for or fashion at that
point the Kenton Police Department was notsupposed to be involved in objection Assistent,
Speaking of Trooper Proctor when you firstinterviewed with him, that was January twenty
nine, twenty twenty two. We'vealready discussed that a little bit today,

(01:50:26):
correct, Correct, And he wastaking notes while you were interviewing with him,
Is that right? I believe so. You mentioned on Friday your observations
of the tail light that day,Is that right? Correct? You told
mister Lally that you indicated that thetail light look when you saw it,

(01:50:47):
just like a photograph that he showedyou. Correct. I told him it
was hard to make out and withthe snow on it, but it looked.
And the picture that he showed showedyou a second photo close up of
the of the SUV sal right,Yes, And you said, yeah,
that's the condition of the tail itcorrect. Yes. You also told officer

(01:51:10):
I'm sorry, Trooper Proctor about yourobservations of the tail eight on that same
day, the twenty ninth, rightcracked. That's literally the same day that
you saw the tail lie correct,cracked just a few hours later? Is
that right? Cracked? And whatyou told Trooper Proctor that day was that
you quote saw crack in it.I told him that the tail I was

(01:51:32):
cracked. A matter of fact,the words that you use or that you
saw and I'm not I'm not fightingall those words. You saw it was
cracked. You actually said I sawa crack in it. Correct, That's
what he said. I said,I'm telling you, I said the tail
I was cracked. There is anotherexample of him. Straighten up your words,

(01:51:57):
right, You'd have to ask TrooperProct there. So I'm asking you,
did you say I saw a crackin it? I said the tail
light was cracked. So you didn'tsay I saw a cracking, right,
I said the tail light was cracked. The photographed you were shown the courts

(01:52:19):
permission to exhibit ninety two, Ibelieve on product Okay, I don't.
Yes, you see the photograph you'reshowing this photograph on Friday. Does that
look like does he like have acrack in it? It's cracked? Yes,

(01:52:40):
it's actually completely missing. Yeah.And I believe in one of the
reports, one of the many reportsthat will say that. I said it
was cracked and missing pieces, right, that looks like cracked pieces that look
like the entirely of the tail lightis basically gone. Again in that picture

(01:53:01):
there are the red pieces, thereare some of it still there. So
it was cracked and missing in astate of shock, that was my description
it. So in a state ofshock, you said there was a cracking
no hours after I said it wascracked. I never said there was a
crack in it. So if TrooperProctor wrote that down, that would be

(01:53:23):
an example and getting your words wrongagain again, Chuck, that's been answered.
That's small, Thank you, Arnor. Okay, I want to get
back to January twenty ninth, thatthat interview with Trouper Proctor. After this

(01:53:46):
interview with Michael Lank, you eventuallymade it made your way back to your
house, is that right? Yes, you went with your husband Matt.
Yes, and you knew that TrouperProctor was going to show up and interview
you and Matt. Mister mcae correcton the phone, he asked he wanted
to speak with me, so,yes, So I wasn't aware he asked

(01:54:08):
to speak with me. I wasn'taware if he was going to speak with
Matt. Okay, you were atleast aware that you were going to be
interviewed. Correct. You told BrianAlbert that the Tuper Proctor was planning on
interviewing you as well. Correct,before Trooper Proctor showed up to conduct that
interview at your house. Brian Albertactually showed up at your house. Correct.

(01:54:30):
Correct, So Brian Albert made surethat he was in your home before
Trooper Proctor made it to your house. Correct, listing. Brian Albert was
in your home before Tuper was inyour home that right. I am not
sure who arrived first, but hewas there when you were interviewed, wasn't

(01:54:50):
He was upstairs? Yes? Andyou believe, of course, with that
statement, he didn't hear anything aboutwhat was happen, right, No,
I don't think you could hear itfrom where he was, but you knew
he was just a few feet away. I knew who he was up in

(01:55:10):
my bedroom. We talked a littlebit about your call records, and I
want to pivot for a second andask you about those call records. This
is Exhibit ninety. Thank you.Do you recognize that document? I do,

(01:55:44):
Yes, you were showing this documentlast week Is that right? Correct?
This is a forensic extraction report ofJohn O'Keefe's cell phone you were shown
on Friday, right, correct.You acknowledged that it's an accurate report of
calls found on John's phone between him. Is that right? I believe so,
yes, okay? And this showsthe calls that you made to John's

(01:56:04):
phone or you received from John's phoneon or between are at or between twelve
fourteen am and twelve fifty am.I want to direct your attention to those
timeframes. Correct, correct? Allright? I want to start at the
at the bottom and it may goand reverse chronological order. Okay, I
think it does. At twelve fourteenit shows that you called John o'keef and

(01:56:27):
that call was answered. Is thatright? Yeah? Correct? At twelve
eighteen am, it shows that JohnO'Keeffe called your phone and that was answered
as well. Correct. And thenat twelve twenty nine am you also called
John o'keef's phone and y'all had ashort conversation as well. Is that right?
Now? That the record shows Ithink it shows unknown correct in terms

(01:56:57):
of whether it was mister or answered. Excuse me? Can you repeat that?
Sure? Twelve twenty nine I wantto concentrate on the twelve twenty nine
am call. Okay, that one. In the Celebrate extraction, it shows
in terms of whether the call wasanswered or not. The status is unknown
correct on the last page, Yeah, second from the second row from the

(01:57:21):
top at twelve twenty nine unknown.Yes, However, you've already acknowledged that
y'all did have a short conversation onthat two twenty nine No twenty nine call.
We didn't speak at two twenty nine. We spoke at we spoke at
twelve fourteen, and we spoke attwelve eighteen. We never spoke at twelve

(01:57:43):
twenty nine. So you're indicating thattwelve twenty nine call was either missed or
otherwise or divoicemails something the twelve twentynine Yes, okay, I want to
show you a document. Well,let me ask it this way. According
to this, there were six morecalls between you your phone and John o'keisphone

(01:58:11):
cracked gond correct one to five six, and that's before or that's up to
twelve fifty am. All right,cracked. I'd like to show you another
document or if I could approach briefly, may I? Yes, thank you,

(01:58:45):
I'll take so we don't get anpicked up. I'll take you get
it back. Okay, thank you. I want to show you one more
document that you weren't shown on Friday. You recognize this one now, okay?
If you look where indicates on theleft column, I'm just putting my

(01:59:06):
thumb here column the M S I, S D N user. There's a
number that ends there and zero onefor two sorry, zero one for twopach.
Yes, So I'm gonna answer thisquestion before it approach. I have

(01:59:28):
no idea what we're approaching about thisdocument. Why don't we just go out
there? Do I have that Ineed? You want to? Just for
ease of maintenance, May I approachand have an unredacted version? Yes?

(01:59:53):
Thank you? You're uh. Ifyou look on the left column as cave
yes, uh, you'll see somethingthat says apple ID yes. To the
right of it. Do you recognizethat unredacted portion. I don't want you
to read it out or anything.You recognize that? Yes? Who is
that? That's okay? If youlook six lines below that, there's a

(02:00:18):
full phone number. Again, don'tleave the phone number out. Tell me
if you recognize it. I do, Mary, Yes, I'll take the
unredacted copy down, so we'll reallymixed up. Does this appear to be
celebrate attraction of your phone records yourApple ID? Yes, okay, and

(02:00:45):
you recognize that without telling her whatit is. You recognize that phone number
as your phone number back at thetime and the Apple I g back at
the time, Yes, associated withthe phone that you then turned in to
law enforcement. Correct. Correct?Okay, Uh, you've just looked at
the extraction report for John O'Keefe's phone, and you saw those calls between your

(02:01:08):
phone and John O'Keefe's phone after goingfrom twelve fourteen after that all the way
up to twelve fifty correct. Correct. Take a look at the last couple
of pages, page three and fourof your own cell phone extraction report and
tell me if you see a singlecall listed between you and John O'Keefe for

(02:01:31):
January twenty ninth. Between twelve fourteenand twelve fifty, there are calls to
a number that I'm assuming is John, but I'm just not sure I see

(02:01:53):
a call. Wait a minute,this report has times everywhere, right,
it's chronological except for the call forthe releasing. You see a call at
five point fifty two to John o'keeaspaone, I see a call at five point

(02:02:15):
fifty two. Yes, but there'snot a single call for four or five
fifty two am between twelve fourteen andtwelve fifty am. Is that right?
Not one? This it's very hardto this report pumps time wise. Every
single time on the report is notthat many. I'm just trying to say

(02:02:44):
that it goes from seven twenty oneto five point fifty two to seven thirty
three to seven forty nine. There'sno they're out of order. I understand
that today. But if you lookget every one of the injuries, there's
not a single injury for twelve fourseed, twelve eighteen or any of the
subsquen twelve twenty nine eighty of thesubscrict phone calls that are all shown on

(02:03:06):
John o'keeith's one extraction. Did youagree to that correct may approach? Yes,
thank you God. I would moveto the admission of an inn as
exhibit games. They're an objection,No were on. May I inquire your

(02:03:42):
own Yes. The fact of thematter is, according to those Celebrate records
and that extraction from your own phone, every one of the calls that you
made to John o'keeith's phone between twelvetwenty nine, and I'm sorry, between
twelve fourteen and twelve fifty am wasdeleted and unrecovered. I didn't understand that
report, and I'm not an expert. And you here the two You saw

(02:04:08):
a bunch of calls on John o'keistone, right, you know he couldn't have
needed them. He passed away,right, correct. I saw yourself phone
extraction, which is the handshake JohnKeithstall, All your calls are missing?
Right, obgession? Can you canyou answer that question? I'm confused that

(02:04:32):
paper, I don't understand it.It was vague. There were numbers,
there were calls everywhere. There wasa number of missing calls. There's a
bunch of missing calls. Right.You didn't see any of the calls that
reflected on John o'keeistall, is thatright? Yes? Or no? They're
not there. A lot of callsare missing. I'm not really even to
what's there because the numbers are allit's all redacted, so you were not

(02:04:58):
seeing any redacted calls. The pagewho just had in front of me was
redacted. It's now an exhibit nonexhibit. Your personal information was redacted.
Now you calls were now the numbers. I don't know people's phone numbers.
I just have the mess contacts.Mister cave you just said a second ago,

(02:05:19):
and we can do this all daylong, or if we could just
make it simple. The fact ofmatter is that report did not show in
of the calls that John o'heff's phonereport showed right from twelve fourteen twelve fifteen,
I believe there was one on thereby fifty two, that's the next
morning man, Right, Were thereare other calls in that time period on

(02:05:40):
to celebrate You just said they're worsjust looked at it. I've told you
that that celebar report was extremely hardto read, right, That is,
there are no calls on your ownphone extraction between you and John O'Keeffe between
twelve fourteen and twelve fifty Would youjust agree with that, at least on
that report jection here on assisting thefact is that you deleted your call record

(02:06:05):
where you turned your phone in.Didn't you just okay, that's what that
report shows. Absolutely not sanitize yourphone because you didn't want the police to
know who you had been calling,or the fact that you had been calling
John O'Keefe's phone incessant, correct,incorrect. I willingly turned over my phone

(02:06:26):
after you deleted your phone call lawscorrect, Absolutely not. What date did
you turn your phone over? PossiblyFebruary third? How many days after this
incident? Was that four or five? So you had plenty of time to
talk to that friends and family groupand ultimately decide to delete your phone calls.

(02:06:51):
Correct? Objection assistent. Did youever have any group chats with family
members who are witnesses in this case? Yes? Yeah, approach on,
yeah, look through those. Well, mister Lally is looking through that packet.

(02:07:21):
Can I just ask to make surethe record is clear? Did you
delete any of your calls before youturn your phone into law enforcement? I
spoke with the two officers that Ihanded my phone over to, and I
asked if I could delete the personalconversations with my daughters, and they said
absolutely yes that I could. Soother than calls with your daughters that you

(02:07:44):
deleted, delete any other calls onyour phone at all? It was text
message. It was actually text messageswith my daughters that I deleted, and
that was all I deleted. Didyou delete any phone calls? I do
not recall deleting any phone calls atall, I would have no reason to

(02:08:05):
delete anything. That's very different thanI didn't belete any phone calls. I
do not remember deleting phone calls inJamia. In day to day life,
people delete things, but I donot recall deleting any phone calls in day
to day life. Did you deleteany of the calls to John o'keeith.

(02:08:28):
No. Did you delete any ofyour calls with Nicole Albert? No?
Did you delete any of your callswith Brian Albert, No, with Chris
Albert, No, Julie alber Aber, No, with any of the witnesses
in this case. Did you deleteany calls before you turn that phone over?

(02:08:48):
No? No, Yes. Thecave I'm handing you a packet of
documents appear to be about ten pageslong. Do you recognize what's in those

(02:09:11):
documents? Yes? You indicated alreadythat you're part of a group chat with
certain members of your family and friends. Correct, did that group chat?
I'm most interested in the group chatbetween yourself, Nicole Albert, Brian Albert,
Matt McCabe, Honor around that groupchat, starting Honor around February first,

(02:09:33):
twenty twenty two, Okay. Doesthat look like a true inaccurate reflection
of the text messages between or certainof the text messages between and among that
group, Yes, the one i'vethe ones i've seen. Yes, Can
you just tell me what page you'reon? I'm sorry, of course,
your honor Bates stamp number once hewon forty eight, thank him to start,

(02:09:56):
thank you, and they should gorelatively crow logically, you're on our
page on page on February first,twenty twenty two, around two fifteen in
the afternoon, on this group chat, did you receive a message from your
husband on the group? This ison page twenty one, forty eight.
That should be the middle bubble,the middle and the bottom bubble. Quote

(02:10:22):
Julie said, Channel four is ind You see that? Yes, And
the response from Matt McCabe is eatingI assume quote ask Chris to ask some
questions. Tell them the guy neverwent in the house end quote. You
see that? Yes. You lookat the next page, the top nine,

(02:10:48):
there's a one word answer from BrianAlbert. What is that answer exactly?
Does it appear to you from thischat that Matt McKay was directing witnesses,
specifically Chris Albert what to say tothe news media. Che I allow

(02:11:11):
that is that what you're seeing.That is not how I would understand this.
He never went in that tell themhe never went in the house.
Was the story that had been contructedbetween and among this group and the people
on this chatection. No, Johnnever went in the house. It wasn't

(02:11:31):
a story. It was the truth, and it is the truth, just
like she said, I hid it. Correct. So according to this chat,
at least the very base level,this is one witness telling another witness
to give certain information to the mediathat could be useful to the group.

(02:11:56):
Correct, tell them the guy neverwent in the house, right, Jesson
sustained Matt McCabe was directing Chris Albert. Chris Albert wasn't even at the house,
wasn't it. Chris Albert was notat the house. Now, But
this chat is Mike, I'm sorry, Matt McCabe, your husband telling Chris
Albert, who was never at thehouse and would have no personal knowledge of

(02:12:18):
what happened in the house, tospecifically say the guy never came in the
house. The guy, by theway, being John o'then right, that's
what he wrote. Does that soundto you a little bit like collusion.
Jesson assistained. At some point yousought out Carry roberts cell phone number shortly

(02:12:50):
after the twenty ninth, or maybenot, maybe on the twenty nine.
Correct, you didn't have her cellnumber on your phone. Now, one
of your primary concerns was to makemake sure that you got in contact with
Carry Roberts before the day's in.Right. I wanted to speak to Carry
as she was on her way tothe hospital, and I wanted to check
in on John. One of yourprimary concerns, Miss McKay, was that

(02:13:13):
you wanted to make sure you gota hold of the Carry Roberts and had
communication with her before the end ofthe day. Had nothing to do with
getting in touch with her by theend of the day. It was a
friend reaching out wondering how her friendwas doing, who was just taken off
the front line on the nine.Yes, so before the end of the
day, Miss McKay, we dothis all day long. Before the end

(02:13:35):
of the day, you were tryingto get a hold of Cary robertson correct,
immediately in the morning. I wantedto get in touch with her,
right, so you sought out herphone number first you tried my client Karen
read correct, correct, But thenyou found another source for that information.
Is that right? Correct? Andyou said just a second ago you were

(02:13:56):
playing that you needed that information becauseyou were you knew that she was on
the way to see John O'Keefe's parents, she was picking them up, and
you wanted to check on them.Correct. You've been friends with the O'Keefe
family for years, haven't you correct? So you didn't have a need to
get Carrie Robert's phone number, didyou. I wanted to speak with Carrie

(02:14:22):
see how she was doing. Iwas not going to call Peg. You
had her phone number, didn't you? I do, yes, So if
you wanted to check on somebody,call I was not going to call Peg
O'Keeffe on the way to see herson at the hospital too much. I
wanted to ask Carrie I didn't.I am sure she was boggled down and

(02:14:43):
probably did not want to speak withanyone. It was a simple thing.
I made sure I got Kerry Robert'snumber so I could check in and see
how John was doing. Also,we had just been through an extremely traumatic
event together. There's nothing evil here. Robert's number. Miss mccaid is because

(02:15:03):
you wanted to make sure that youcontrol her story as she left your your
site. Correct. Absolutely not.Did you take any steps whatsoever, any
steps whatsoever to influence Carrie Roberts's statementsnow, because that would be collusion,

(02:15:26):
wouldn't it sustained? Did you writea text to the group, including Brian
Albert, Nicole Albert, and Mattmccad where you informed them that quote and
this is your on arm page fortyI'm sorry, twenty one fifty eight where
you informed them quote Carrie is heregoing over timeline in quote correct, So

(02:15:52):
you reported back to Brian, Nicoleand Matt Carrie was where she came over
my house and sat down and wentover a quote timeline together. Peggy spoke
to Carrie. No, I didn'tasked about Peggy. Well, that's where
the timeline started at. Did youask Carry or did Carry come up show

(02:16:15):
up at your house and quote unquotego over a timeline. Carrie showed up
asking to sit down with me todo a timeline so we would remember everything
that had happened. And you wantedto be super helpful about that, right
Jack. That's differently, sure,you wanted to be helpful to Carrie Roberts.

(02:16:37):
The two of us were trying tofigure out what had happened to our
friend, and so you made surethat you created and drafted with Carrie Roberts
a timeline for the correct I didn'tmake sure of anything. She was the
one that asked me to do it. And not only did you create a
timeline, you then reported back toyour group, Ryan Albert, Nicole Albert,

(02:16:58):
Matt McKay. She was creating thistimeline with you on February first,
twenty twenty two, isn't that right? Yes, after you created or drafted
this timeline with Carrie, she actuallysat for an interview with the police,
did she not? That's not inthe chests. I'm just asking she sat

(02:17:22):
down for an interview with the police, didn't she? When? Tell me?
Flightless, I'm not sure of whatyou're talking about. Okay, let's
start off. Yes, after thistimeline was created on February first, at
some point thereafter, Harry Roberts conducteda formal interview with the police about this

(02:17:43):
case. Right, do you havethe report of that date? We're still
bearing the lead. Give the interviewin your living room, ma'am. Right,
there was on Tuesday to offer,came to the house and she sat
in the other room and spoke withthem. So, using my question,

(02:18:09):
she did the interview at your house. Oh, they came to my house
to interview me, and she happenedto be there, so they asked if
they could speak with her. Also, Okay, did she or did she
not do an interview at your house? Did? Yes? That wasn't that
hard. You were present for thatinterview, weren't you. I was eating

(02:18:33):
dinner. You were present for theinterview, Miss mcthaibe. I was in
the house. Yes, and youlistened to that interview, didn't you?
No? I did not. Youmade sure you gave Carrie Roberts everything she
needed for that interview, correct quoteeverything she might need that in didn't even
where is this that you're quoting from? Oh, I'm sorry when you quoted

(02:18:56):
I thought it was in here.I apologize. We'll get to it in
a second. Did you tell hereverything that you wanted her? Said?
No? I did not. Didyou in any way attempt to influence her
testimony before she gave that interview inyour living room? Absolutely not. Carrie
is her own person. But thenyou did report her progress to the Albert

(02:19:18):
and McCay group and that group chat, didn't you can you show me where
please? Sure? Is it truethat in a group text with Brian,
Albert, Nicole, Albert, MattMcKay, you wrote, and this is
on page twenty one, p.Fifty nine quote and we handed Carrie sorry

(02:19:41):
and handed phone to Carrie. Youremember that. I see that. Yes,
And the very next text is fromyou telling the group she's telling him
everything in all caps, two exclamationpoints. Yes, and then you went
on to say it fifty five pm. It is basically the same moment,

(02:20:03):
quote all the stuff correct. Correct. So when you said a couple of
minutes ago that you weren't listening towhat she was saying, that was a
lie, wasn't it. We're talkingabout two different interviews. I'm talking about
when the officers came to my houseand spoke to her. There you're saying

(02:20:24):
that I handed the phone over,so that would be a different interview.
Okay, this is on February firstto fifty five. I wasn't there.
You were there. She's in yourhouse on February first, giving an interview
to the police. Wasn't she oneday she was there giving an interview to
the police and while she was there, But I do not believe it was
at two fifty five. It waslater in the evening. So I think
you might have two events confused eitherway, whether she was on the phone

(02:20:48):
with the police or sitting there inyour living room with the police, you
were listening to her and reporting backto the group. She's telling them everything.
The one no, it's not correct, the one that she did with
the police she did in the otherroom, and the one she did on
the phone. I said, she'stelling them everything because Carrie is an extremely

(02:21:09):
blunt person, and she was givingpersonal feelings about the situation, and I
was horrified by it to the police, to the police, and you're listening.
I heard a statement she said thathorrified me. And then you're reporting
it back to the group. Weren'tyou that one thing she stated? I

(02:21:31):
reported back to the group. Yes, So you're listening it on a police
interview. Correct, it was aphone call. One side of it,
right, it was a phone call. You're listening in on a police interview.
One side of it. Correct,they're eavesdropping on that interview. Correct.
I'm sitting with her and she's takingthe call, and then you're reporting
that interview back or her success inthat interview in your mom back to the

(02:21:54):
group involving Ryan Albert, Nicole Albert, and Matt mckaine. Is that what
you're doing? Yes? I loveit. I absolutely not. That is
not how it went. I washorrified because Carrie is a blunt person,
not like me, and she hadmade a comment about miss Read and mister
O'Keefe's relationship, and I was shockedand horrified that she said it the way

(02:22:16):
that she did. You're so shockedand horrified, I said, oh my
god, she's telling them everything.Yes, decided it was so important to
Gene to report that back to BrianAlbums Fresh. I was horrified. So
you reported that back? Yes,I said, she told them everything.
When you were first confronted with thesemessages at a separate proceeding in June of

(02:22:39):
twenty twenty three, you claimed thatyou couldn't remember what that exchange was about
correct correct And now you just allof a sudden have this newfound memory of
exactly what that text message was referringto correct estion. I low it,
yes, because Carrie Roberts said astatement and a jogged I said, oh
my god, that's what I meantwhen I said she said everything. When

(02:23:01):
did she say this statement? Probablyin the fall. She has made this
statement a few times in a referenceto Karen. You and Karrie Roberts are
still your statements? Oh no,we're not. It's just an opinion she
has of misread. And all ofa sudden that became your quote, everything,

(02:23:24):
all the stuff. It didn't justbecome it. I forgot that I
had written it, and one dayCarrie made the statement. And I'm sure
it happens to everyone. You forgetsomething and then you're like, oh my
god, that's what it was.I'm not sure if that happens to everyone.
Church Sustained. Let me ask youa different question. When you were
asked under oath a year ago,when it was things refresher in your mind,

(02:23:48):
you were asked specifically what she was, what you were referring to,
and your answer was I have noidea correct, correct, because you didn't
want to tell them that you hadcoordinated statement with Carrie Roberts. Is that
right? No, that is notright. I did not remember what it
was. Went on to be askedspecifically, do you know who you were

(02:24:09):
referring to? And you said maybeCarrie, maybe I'm talking to Carrie.
And the question was, but youdon't recall this text, and your answer
was, I don't remember. That'swhat you testified to a year ago.
Correct, Correct, But now you'retalking about some memory of a disparaging comment
that Carrie Roberts has about my client, and that's the everything in your mind.

(02:24:31):
Yes, the things that she wassaying. Quite obviously, what you
were referring to in that text inreal time, Miss McCain, was that
Carrie Roberts was telling the police quoteeverything that you had laid out for her
in this timeline meeting you had withher. Correct es, So it sustained

(02:24:54):
as to that form you can askthat question in a proper way. Everything
you referred to in that text inreal time was what you had what you
had worked out with Carrie in thattimeline meeting, wasn't That was the everything
you were referred to? Correct?Incorrect. We never worked together to come
up with the story. We havethe facts and the everything was a comment

(02:25:18):
about your client. You went onin your group chat with Brian Albert,
Nicole Albert, and Matt McKay togive running updates about whether or not Carrie
Roberts was actually following the script correctincorrect, There was no script. One
sixty seven, Matt mccab texted thegroup Brian comma sitting separate Correct. Yes,

(02:25:50):
It sounds like Matt McCabe is recordingit back to Brian Albert following the
instructions were sitting separate, church assisting. One minute later, Brian Albert had
a one word response to the Briansitting separate. Correct. Yes. What

(02:26:13):
was that one word response? Okay? It sounded like he was giving his
approval where people were situated in thatmeeting, right, Assistant At page twenty
one sixty eight, five fifteen.It's very hard to just look at two
texts and try to understand what thecontext is. That's the case. If
you don't understand the question that Ihave, just let me know. But

(02:26:35):
otherwise let me ask the question twentyone. I'm sorry. On page twenty
one sixty eight, at five pointfifteen, he wrote the group quote you
listening, correct, yes, Andat the same time five point fifteen you

(02:26:56):
then wrote cops here again end quotecorrect. Correct. That was in reference
to the police coming over to yourhouse. Further interviewing, Carrie Roberts,
wasn't it? That was when theycame to talk to me, and Carrie
Roberts was there was at my house. Correct. And a few minutes later,

(02:27:22):
at five point twenty three, NicoleAlbert texts call us after correct.
A few minutes after that, MattMcKay texts, quote, this girl could
write a book dot dot dot NonStop. Correct. Correct. So obviously Matt
McKay, along with you, waslistening to Carrie Roberts interviews. We were

(02:27:48):
sitting in the kitchen eating dinner withour children, and Carry Roberts was in
a different room, but she wasgoing on and on and on as she
does because they were in the otherroom and you can listen. I could
hear voices, you could hear herinterview with the pole. Did not hear
her interview. I could hear themtalking, but I was sitting at a
table with my children, eating dinner, getting ready to go to a basketball

(02:28:11):
game. You can respond it toMatt McKay, I love it, yes.
And then you responded about this interview. You just testified under oath and
under penalty of perjury, not hearinganything about just hearing voices. Your next

(02:28:33):
text was quote, she is tellingthem everything. Yes, right, yes,
So what you said just a fewminutes ago about not knowing what she
was saying, I could just hearvoices. That was a lot. It
wasn't sistine, And a couple ofseconds later pull out her response one word.

(02:28:56):
What was her response? Good?So in order those texts say you
listening, you said you're listening.The objection sustained at the end of the

(02:29:20):
day, you were eavesdropping on aninterview carry Roberts was having law enforcement in
their official classy. No, Iwas sitting eating dinner, and some of
the things obviously I overheard, butI was not. I'm saying there's a
possibility if I'm sitting in this roomeating dinner and someone's in another room talking,

(02:29:43):
you can hear bits and pieces.Was I evesdropping? No? Is
there some big cover up story?No? Well, why does the cave?
Does your story? Does your testimonykeep evolving? A second ago you
said you told this jury you saidI couldn't hear a thing. All I
could hear his voices, like muffledvoices from the other rooms. You've gone
on and on about something. Yeah, And then when I confronted you with
the text message where you said,she's telling them everything. Now it's well,

(02:30:05):
I may have heard a couple ofthings, which is no. She
was going on and on and onlike she does, and you were listening
on and on and on like youdo. I was probably hearing bits and
pieces. Why was it so importantto report back to the group that you
were happy that Carrie Roberts was sayingquote everything, I love it. We

(02:30:33):
had both lost our friend. KerrieRoberts was in chock, as was I
in chock. The two of ushad all this information that just kept coming
back to us and back to us, and it was it's terrifying when you
go through an experience and you're inchock. And Carrie was remembering things,

(02:30:58):
I was remembering things things. SoI was happy for her that she was
piecing it all together, and Ihad pieced it all together because at the
end of the day, our friendwas dead and we were trying to figure
out what had happened to him together. There was no direction. We were
all trying to figure out what hadhappened, because that's what you do when

(02:31:18):
you lose somebody you love. Wereyou happy for her or were you happy
for you? And Brian and Mattand then for me and for her because
we were going through this together.There was no conversation about the story out
that you're trying to get out andcarry robbers. I love that there is

(02:31:43):
no there is no story. There'sfacts and truth on this side. There's
no story. The story that you'vecreated is not the truth. Did I
create a hit my hand on myhead or did you? That's fact.
The fact that conveniently you didn't mentionin your report a blank brand jury,

(02:32:05):
right that kind of fact? Isthat right? That is the fact I
mentioned so in some reports it's there. The fact is you wanted to keep
very close tabs on Carrie Roberts DidneyNow January twenty ninth. If you look
on the page twenty two twenty three, did you text the group quote carry

(02:32:31):
talked to cops and kept it simpleunquote? Yes, okay, I have
it for you to keep tabs onCarrie Roberts injection, assisting you'll agree that
over and over and over and overagain, you're recording to this tight group

(02:32:58):
Nicole, Brian Albert, your husband, how Carrie's doing and her stories to
the police, aren't you? Overand over and over I am telling them,
what is going on? I wouldn'tsay, well, let's count them?
Was there four of them? You'resaying over and over and over and
over. It's a bit extreme.I see. So you take issue with

(02:33:20):
the way that I phrased over andover. Well, it's misleading, I
believe, I see. Okay,let me see if I can try this
in a non misleading way. Okay, so at least one of us,
I'll talk. You consistently reported backto the group how Carrie Roberts was doing

(02:33:41):
with the police, didn't you.I would update them after Kelly Carry saw
and spoke to the police again.We were all trying to figure out what
had happened to John. There's yetanother text from Brian's wife Nicole in January
twenty ninth, and this is onpage twenty two, twenty six. She

(02:34:09):
says, quote, we'll get moreinfo tomorrow. Don't want to text about
it. End quote. I meanyou texted right? Correct? Correct?
What's that about? Rash oh Ellen. We decided that we would talk on
the phone. My children look onmy phone, her children look on her

(02:34:31):
phone. We were working with thepolice. I was sharing information and everything
that had happened. We didn't wantit to leave our little circle because we
were trying to figure out what happened, and we're not going to go running
around letting people see, oh mygosh, they think this might have happened,

(02:34:52):
or that might have happened. Itwas nothing more than let's not text
about it. So why didn't wekeep it groups in your little circle?
Right? Correct? I didn't wantit all out there what we had fought
had happened. I was going tolet the police do their job. So
by definition, the info that theCole album was talking about that needed to

(02:35:16):
be kept very tight, very secret. Correct. We needed the police to
do their job. So we weren'tgoing to texts. And Nicole wanted hurt
texts, and the group wanted theirtexts to be kept secret and private.
Isn't that right? Not secret andprivate? We just weren't going to communicate

(02:35:37):
certain things over text. Did yougive or did anybody give you any private
information? The next day on Januarythirty, can anyone give me private information?
So let me put it in context. That's section from the Coal album.
We'll get infoll get more info tomorrow. I don't want to text about

(02:36:03):
it. That was on the twentyninth right, okay, So did you
get additional info on the thirtieth thenext day? I have no idea.
Did anything significant happen on January thirtiethin connection with this case? Any meetings
and he get togethers what you canthink of. I went to the O'Keeffe's
house. Other than that anything else. On the way home, Carrie Roberts

(02:36:31):
daughter is good friends with Michael Lank, So we dropped her off at Michael
Lank's house and Mike's wife came outof the house. Him and Carry are
friends, and she, you know, Drenket in the car and was consoling
Carry and asks how the O'Keeffes weredoing, and you know, we talked

(02:36:52):
to her. So you pulled upto Michael Lank's house on the thirtieth.
That's never been I guess I neverthought much of it, never thought of
recording the fact that one of thefirst responding officers on the case, working

(02:37:13):
for Camp me off the case,you had a meeting with It was on
record. The next day, Ididn't meet I didn't meet with Michael Link.
So you pulled up in the car. Tell me about that again.
You pulled up in the car,and what happened, and Lex her daughter
went into the house, okay,and then you just drove away. No,
Michael's wife came out of the house, okay, and y'all had a

(02:37:35):
conversation about what she got in thecar and her and carry her friends,
and she was checking on Carrie andyou know, just saying, oh my
god, this is so crazy,you know, just checking in on the
O'Keeffes. How long did that say, Well, that carries the taka.
So could have been an hour,could have been hour standing outside, sitting
in the car, sitting in thecar on February thirtieth. Never came in

(02:37:58):
the house. Not February thirtieth,I said, February, January thirtieth.
Everyone in the house. I mighthave ran in to go to the bathroom.
It's the back end of a blizzard. It's freezing cold outside. Sitting
in the car for an hour.Guy was running Kerry and they were talking.
It's her friend. Did you haveany conversation before you are tested about

(02:38:22):
today with anybody about you going toMichael Lane's house on January thirty anybody,
yes, tell me about that.Who wasn't women? It was a couple
of weeks ago at the DA's office. The DA's office had an interview with

(02:38:43):
you, right, not an interview, They just explained this process. I
mean a conversation. How about that? Yeah, yes, mister Lallelys McLaughlin,
Steve Nelson, Trooper Brian Tully,I believe ohm, and another woman

(02:39:11):
I can't remember her name unfortunately.Yes, No, no, she's here
today. She works with Steve Nelson, but an employee of the Yes,
it sounds like a pretty big meeting. I wouldn't call it a big meeting.

(02:39:33):
That was what five of them?How long did you apply them?
And then you? My daughter Alicame with me also. Did the meeting's
getting bigger? Anybody else? No? We both went. Was Ali in
the room when you were say interviewedthat you take a shoe with every word

(02:39:54):
I used when you were talked toby the DN. Allie and I were
both in the room when they receivedwhen they went over everything, you know
how this all works because this isall brand new to us. And then
they asked me to leave the room. You were about to say that I

(02:40:16):
lost the end of that sentence.When they received, I didn't mean the
word received. Did you receive anything? No? I looked at my grand
jury notes. Now at this meeting, was anybody taking notes? No,
you have a bunch of lawyers anddas and nobody has tom. I believe

(02:40:41):
mister Leley had a number of folderson the table. I know, I
do not believe anyone was taking notes. It was a casual meeting to explain
this process recorded in anywhere. Now, how long did the meeting last?
Allie and I were probably in theroom, I don't know, approximately twenty
minutes. Then I left and theyspoke with her, and then I went

(02:41:05):
back in and they spoke with me. How long did they speak with you?
Honestly, maybe a half hour hour? And during that half hour to
an hour to go over with youwhat they expected your testimony to be.
They never spoke about what they expectedmy testimony to be. They just showed
me some pictures that might be shown. I listened to the nine one one

(02:41:28):
what pictures just of the house,and how I'd be asked to, you
know, show, Okay, we'regoing to put a picture of the house
and they'll have a laser. Whenwe started this conversation, it was because
you said an answer to my question, was anything ever brought up to you
about this meeting and Life's house.You said yes, So obviously they did

(02:41:54):
talk to you about your testimony.What was just about the process? Correct?
I was told I asked what discoveryhad been turned in in regard to
me? So you wanted to prepareto make sure that you knew what you
might be asked on cross examination?Correct? I wanted to know what was
coming. Yes, and you knewthat one of the things was coming after

(02:42:18):
this meet. Well, let meask you a different way. During this
meeting, did mister Lowe tell youone of the things that's going to be
coming is you had an off thebooks meeting at Lank's house for forty five
minutes. Tell you that, Now, that's not how I was told.
Did he tell you that the defensehad uncovered a report that established that you

(02:42:39):
were actually at Michael Lank's house forforty five minutes that had never been reported
to the defense or the prosecution beforethe phone extraction had been done. Tell
you that I was told. Iwas asked, oh, were you at
Michael Lank's the thirtieth, So you'vehad a lot of time to come up

(02:43:03):
with a story about why you wereat Michael Lank's. Correct. Ojeshon illow
it. I didn't need time tomake up a story because I have the
truth of why we went. Andthe truth, according to you, is
you pulled up at Michael Lank's house, a first responding officer and friends of
the albums had a meeting with himthe next day that was never reported to

(02:43:24):
anybody for any purpose. I justmet with his wife out in the car
while the car was wor for fortyfive minutes to an hour. That's your
story. It's not a story,it's the truth. Carrie dropped her daughter
off, the wife came out.Carrie is a talker. They started talking.

(02:43:48):
A tragedy had happened the day before. It is interesting, would you
not agree that the day before youhave this off the book's meeting at Michael
lance house. Nicole Albert says,we'll get more info tomorrow, meaning the

(02:44:09):
very day you show up at Lesseagain. I never spoke with Mike Lank
at his house. It was notan off the books meeting. It was
Carrie dropping her daughter at one ofher good friend's house whose husband happens to
be a Canton cop. That thatis what it is. That is the

(02:44:31):
truth. A lot of coincidences,Christine, Yes, that's by the way.
Uh, what did mister Lowly showyou in respect of this issue about

(02:44:52):
this meeting at Michael lefehouse? Heshowed me nothing. He's told you about
it, right, And Tully toldme, Okay, what did mister Tully
tell you, Trooper Tully, whatexactly did he tell you at this meeting
about this Michael Lank issue? Hesaid, did you go to Michael Lanks
on January thirty thirtieth? And atfirst I said no, I've never been

(02:45:16):
to his house, and then Ithought about it and I said, oh
my gosh, yes I did gothere. And that was the extent of
the conversation. You said, yeah, I did go there, and he
didn't ask to follow up, like, what the heck do you doing at
Michael Lan's house the day after thisissue? Did Ill low it? You
didn't ask the follow up that Ido not believe he did. So,

(02:45:39):
Trooper Tully had you come down foran interview. He confronted you with a
fact that had never been disclosed before. To wit, you showed up at
Michael Lank's house. And when yousaid yeah, oh yeah, hang on,
I think your words were oh mygosh, yeah, I think I
did go there, and he didn'task the follow up question he was there.

(02:46:03):
You're you're spinning all of this.I do a lot of things.
Yeah, I'll spin. There's ajudge here to make sure that I don't
spend I'm asking you a question,it's very direct. I do not believe
he asked me a follow up question. So that was the end of that
conversation about michaelonging. Correct, correct, Mister Lolly didn't have any follow up

(02:46:24):
questions. I don't believe mister Lollywas in the room. Who else I
thought you said, mister they were, They might not have been in the
room at that time. I see. So mister Lolly just happened to what
just saunter out. It was adifferent time, So mister Lolly was in
and out of the conversation. MisterLolly was not there when this conversation happened.

(02:46:46):
Why is that? Because I metwith Brian Tully and he was not
there taking notes. No, he'sa state trooper interviewing a witness. He
was sustained. The same report thathas you at Michael Lan's house also has

(02:47:07):
you picking up Nicole Alwerth going bythe going by thirty four Fairview just before
you went to Michael lanx house.You aware that we did not pick up
Nicole Albert, so you went mythirty fourth Fairview, then diverted right after
you went by thirty four Fairview,went directly over to Michael Lank's house.

(02:47:31):
What was the reason you stopped bythirty four fair of View? First,
we didn't stop by. Maybe Carrieslowed down, but we did not stop
by thirty four. Did a driveby thirty four fair View gimles? Well,
no, that's how we get toMichael Lank's house. If the report
shows that you actually stopped at thirtyfour Fairview. We then went to Michael

(02:47:52):
Lank's house. Would we have anotheroh my gosh moment? No? No,
oh my gosh moment. We didnot pick up Nicole Albert. Anybody
else go with you over to MichaelLife's house. No, it was carrying
myself and her daughter. Maybe.Okay, cheers, We're going to try

(02:48:13):
and go right up to one o'clock. Okays McKay. We've talked in some
detail about your calls with John O'Keefeon the morning of January twenty ninth,
I can call that Yes, Iwant to focus your attention on or about

(02:48:39):
are at for about twelve fourteen am, moving up to about twelve fifty am.
You have that time in mind.Yes, you've seen the Celebrate extraction
from John O'Keefe's phone to the Loosshow the day correct. Correct, And
you went through the series of phonecalls that were made and that appear on
his extract actually report correct. Correct. I just want to run through those

(02:49:03):
time wise, very quickly, justto orient you if I can, and
then I'll ask you some specific questionsabout it. There was a call at
twelve fourteen am correct. Correct.That was a call that you indicated was
answered. You had a conversation withmister O'Keeffe. Correct. It was a
call twelve eighteen and forty seven seconds. That call also was answered by you.

(02:49:26):
John O'Keeffe made that phone call correct. Correct. Then there's the twelve
twenty nine and forty four second callthat you indicated was not answered. Correct,
and that was a call to yousorry, from you to him.
Correct. There was a twelve fortyone call from you tip to John O'Keeffe
correct, That was correct. Therewas a twelve forty one and fifty four

(02:49:50):
second call from you to him,Is that right? Correct? There was
a twelve forty three and nineteen secondcall from you to him, correct,
twelve forty six am and sixteen secondsfrom you to him at twelve forty seven
and fifty two seconds from you tohim correct, and twelve fifty and thirty

(02:50:11):
seven seconds from you to him correct. Correct. You saw in his extraction
report that all of those calls aftertwelve eighteen were missed calls correct. In
his report that you showed me correct. In other words, the only two

(02:50:33):
calls that were answered the twelve fourteenand twelve eighteen. Everything else was a
missed call. I believe, soI would have to refer to it again
because I've seen so many reports andmiss mccid. According to the extraction reports
that you've seen this morning, comparingyours to his, every single one of
those calls was deleted off your phone, correct, according to the reports.

(02:51:01):
According to that report. Yes,let me ask you another question. Have
you ever misplaced your phone? Yes? And everybody doesn't, right, Yes,
what's one of the first things youdo if you're with your daughter or
your husband or a friend and yourin your house and you misplace your phone

(02:51:24):
what do you do? Oh,I'll ask them to call my phone,
right, even, over and overand over right? Correct. It could
be as many as five, six, seven times. Usually I hear the
first or second time. You're lookingfor a buzz or a ring? Isn't
that right? Correct? And youmight do that if you're searching for a

(02:51:46):
missing phone. Correct. Correct.With regard to the calls that were deleted
from your phone, you were askedabout this under oath at another proceeding Wren's
you correct, And you claimed thatanother proceeding that you had an explanation for
all these missed calls starting twelve twentynine, twelve forty one, twelve forty

(02:52:11):
one, twelve forty three, twelveforty six, twelve forty seven, twelve
fifty I have an explanation to that, right. Can I see the report?
I'm asking you about your prior testimonyand I'm asked about these calls.
Yes, I'm asking can I seeit? Please? I'm asking you a
different question at your other at thisother proceeding under it, Yes, you

(02:52:33):
explained that these calls were what thesemissed calls? Incessant miss calls? What
were the You used the word thewords I believe I used the word butt
dial. You claimed that every oneof these calls was a butt dial.
Is that right? Yes, So, according to you, you literally butt

(02:52:56):
dialed John O'Keefe's phone six times inthe span of nineteen minutes. All right,
I don't remember making any of thosecalls. So my assumption is I
put my phone in my back pocketand that was it. When you dial
someone by mistake, I hit abutton such calming down, the phone has

(02:53:20):
to be open. You'll agree withthat, right cracked lost, because it
takes several iterations of movements to geta phone open. They side me or
password, right correcked. So whenyou hit the button by mistake, walk
away, that's a but you cancall it. What happens? What's a
call? I assume it goes tovoicemail. Good assumption, because that's exactly

(02:53:45):
what it does, isn't it.You've had a phone for a a lot
of years, right, Yes,Its rings and rings and rings until it
goes to boysmail. Don't order tohang up that butt dial, you have
to get ract that phone yet again, don't. Yes, So, if
you had six butt dials, it'sseven butt guys. You not only have

(02:54:05):
to interact with the phone once it'sa butt dial, John, you've ben
have to interact with it every singletime to turn off that phone ringer so
it doesn't go to voicem it Isuppose, which makes fourteen interfaces with that
phone over the course of nineteen minutes. Is that right? I mean,

(02:54:33):
I guess I don't have it allright in front of me. But there
were also text messages I was sending, so again maybe I said, oh
shoot, I called them and thenI turned it off. But your claim
is you don't remember those incessant buttdials and those incessant hang ups at all,
correct, I honestly don't, soyou would have had to forget you

(02:54:56):
interacted with. But by the way, the phone extraction show that John o't
nos right, I didn't luck,So that means you had had to interact
with that phone fourteen times over thecourse of nineteen minutes, at the exact

(02:55:16):
timeframe that the Commonwealth suggests he losthis life sustained. You can ask that
differently, and this will be alast question for today. Please get sure
the period between twelve twenty nine andtwelve fifty, which is the exact period
that you will quote butt dialing Johnmultiple times. That's also the exact period

(02:55:41):
that John o'heath which rendered in capacity. All right, sure that sustained.
We'll start up again tomorrow. Okay, thank you. All right, folks,
so I'm going to work walk out, Thank you, thank you.
All right. So juris, pleasedo not discuss in peace. If anyone
don't do it, you make anew research or investigation into the case.

(02:56:03):
Didn't you happen to see here orread anything about the case? US got?
Now tomorrow day beforecast. This isgoing to be very hot. We'll
see this quote spluctuates. It couldbe really cold here, could be really
fun in here, So you bringup all right, thank you very it's

(02:56:24):
an ride, missus Jackson, thisis you will, thank you, Hostillali.

(02:57:05):
Who else might you have tomorrow?So Miss Roberts would be next,
Loura Sullivan, Marietta Sullivan, andthen I think it would be mister Higgins
after that. Okay, all right, it's not likely we'll get through all
of those, correct, Probably not? Okay, all right, thank you

(02:57:26):
very much for see you tomorrow,all right, Jim, I'll see you
too. Hey there, Karen ReidTrial watchers. This is a long Crime
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