Boyfriend Cop Murder Trial – MA v. Karen Read – Day 16

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Did what is now open? Youmay be seated judgement like the journey.
Well, I understand council wants tosee me, but can it wait?

(00:21):
Can we get started with the testimony. It's already nine fifteen, all right,
so I'll hear from mister Jackson aboutthat. Since it's this witness,
why why don't we come over hereand do it while we bring the jurors
in. Okay, you are unneeded, he he All presses have any business

(01:19):
before the Honorable Beverly Canoni, Justiceof the Norfolk speriod for the given God
name, give your attendance. Itshall be heard. God say. The
carwall in Massachusetts is now open.You may be seeing one the comonwall versus
Karen Reid. Can I have counselidentify themselves for the record at Lyley for
the com Good morning, morning,Larama, Gooflin, Good morning, Honor

(01:42):
Alan Jacksonville in the street, Jason, good morning, It's little Good MORNINGTI,
good morning, Good morning, Jenners. The county was kind enough to
come in last night and make surethat the air conditioning was working. They
were very late. They did areally terrific job. So I think everybody

(02:05):
should be comfortable today I do haveto ask you those same three questions.
Were you all able to follow theinstructions and refrain from discussing this case with
anyone since we left yesterday? Andeveryone said yes or nodded affirmatively. Were
you also able to refrain from doingany independent research or investigation into this case?
Everyone said yes or nodded affirmatively.Did anyone happen to see, hear,

(02:30):
or read anything about this case sincewe left yesterday? Everyone said no,
I should do all right? Maywe have miss sorry, missus McKay,
please shot me from recording. Ididn't all right, mister Jackson,

(03:08):
whenever you were lady, Thank you, your honor Miss mcade. As a
matter of housekeeping, I want toshow you a quick set of documents that
that you saw yesterday, but Ijust want to make sure that we were
talking about the same thing with thecommission. Can you just take a look
at that and tell me that youseeing set of documents that we talked about

(03:30):
yesterday that included the root chats forlack of better fast Yes, okay,
yes, I don't need to wrestyou, your honored with the corporation.
I would ask that this set ofroom chest development, gave me a part

(03:52):
and movie there is. Is thereany objection nor the approach? Yes,
it's a bit n or cover morethan what you covered yesterday? All right,
so is this still more? I'mjust curious if my form is different

(04:14):
then exactly, saying why don't whydon't I take a look at the exhibit.
PA, did you come to Cibery? Yes, all right, so
that will come into evidence and jurors. Sometimes I do have to repeat myself
a bit. But this is again. Before you can consider any electronic communication
in your deliberations, you must firstfind that it's more likely true than not

(04:38):
that the person who authored or sentthese messages was in fact the person identified
as doing so. If you donot find that it's more likely true than
not that the person who was identifiedas doing so was the person who authored
or sent or transmitted the electronic communication, then you may not consider that electronic
communication in your deliberations. Right,mister Jackson, go right ahead, Thank

(05:01):
you, honor. Let's beaky,you will call him. Yesterday we talked
about the twelve times in your grandjury transcript that you talked about statements that
you attributed to my client. Youremember that conversation yes, And in those
dozen times, you never used theword or the words or the phrase I
hid it correct. Correct, Andyour explanation for that was well, I

(05:27):
wasn't asked that specific question. Correct. Correct? You were, in fact
on January twenty ninth. Let merephrase that just a little bit. You
did, in fact, on Januarytwenty ninth, seek to ask an officer
to come back to thirty fourth fairof you for the specific purpose of telling
that officer something that you thought wasimportant. Correct. Correct? Which officer

(05:51):
was that? Michael Lank And aboutwhat time did you ask officer like to
join you back at thirty fourth fairI'm not sure. I know it was
in the am. I'm just notsure my time exactly. Somewhere around nine
am. Does that sound about right? Possibly? Okay, So this literally

(06:11):
we're talking about just a couple ofhours after the incident in question. Correct.
Okay, Sergeant Blank came with SergeantGallagher I believe, correct, Correct,
came back to the location at thirtyfour fair View, and gave you
an opportunity to provide whatever information youdeemed relevant at that time to impart to
him. Correct. Correct, Andisn't it true that at that time you

(06:34):
didn't tell Sergeant Blank that my clientsaid I hit him. What you said
was that you're that my client said, I hope I didn't hit him.
Correct now, Mary for Runner,Yes, the second to the last third,

(06:58):
the last page. Could you takea look at that report, just
the face page and tell me ifthat appears to be an incident report associated
with this case. I know youdidn't draft it, but you recognize that
that's an incident report from the policecan and police specifically. Yes. Could
you turn to the tab that's thelight blue tab, maybe three pages from

(07:20):
the end of that report. Yes, I'd like you to read that paragraph
to yourself if you wouldn't mind.Do you have that in mind? I
do? Yes? May I approachit on him? Yes? What you

(07:44):
read just now appears to be areport of the incident in which Sergeant Lank
came back to thirty four fair viewto give you an opportunity to tell him
whatever it was that you thought wasimportant. Correct. Was that a full
report or or is that just anexcerpt from it? With that paragraph that
right, there is a full reportof that incident of Sergeant Lank going back

(08:07):
to thirty fourth thirty Would you agreewell, that's not a full report of
what I said. But if that'shis full report, it's his full report.
And in this report, what hewrites that you said to him objection
the objection system. Isn't it truethat what you actually told Sergeant Lank when

(08:28):
he returned is that while driving aroundwith her, with her and Roberts looking
for the victim, Miss Reid saidsomething to the effect of a quote,
I hope I didn't hit him endquote. Isn't that what you told him?
Yes, because she said that whenwe were driving around, and then

(08:50):
you went on to say that quoteshe Karen Reid made these statements again at
the scene when the victim was discovered. Correct. Correct, And then you
went on to say she Karen Reid. I'm sorry that you thought that Reid
may have made these same statements infront of a police officer. But she

(09:11):
was not sure, meaning you werenot sure, correct, I was not
sure if she made what the policeofficers may have heard. That report is
his recollection. My recollection is Itold him that she said I hit him,
I hit him, I hit him, And I told him that he
should ask responders if they heard that, because it was a great possibility that

(09:33):
they heard it as well. Butnone of that you'll read you just read
the report. None of that isin his report. That's a very brief
report. I didn't ask you ifit was brief. I asked you if
it was in it correct? Correct, And as a report of a conversation
that he had at thirty four fairviewwith you for the specific purpose of memorializing

(09:54):
what you told him correct, correct, and what you told him, according
to sergeant is she said one phrase, I hope I didn't hit him.
Correct. That's what's in the report, all right, And again this was
two and a half three hours afterthe incident, not two and a half

(10:16):
years later. Correct. Correct.Mss McKay, we talked yesterday about this
unrecorded meeting that you had in frontof Sergeant Lank's home on January thirtieth.
Do you remember that conversation. Iremember the conversation. Yes. Have you

(10:37):
had any other home visits with anyother police officers involved in this case?
I went to visit, I wentto drop off. It was not a
visit. It was myself with CarrieRoberts dropping her daughter off. There was
no involvement of Mike Lank on thisday. Have you been to the home

(11:01):
the personal residence of any other policeofficer involved in this case? Ever?
Yes? Tell me who Kevin Albert? Who else? I went to Elizabeth
Proctor, the wife of Michael Proctor'shouse. What does Elizabeth Proctor live with
Michael Proctor? So you actually wentto Michael Proctor's personal residence. I did,

(11:24):
Yes, that was in September ofwhat year twenty three? I went
over twenty three? Yes? Whydid you go to Michael Procter's house in
September of twenty twenty three? Imet Elizabeth Proctor in approximately July or August

(11:46):
of twenty twenty three. We aretwo mothers that are being viciously terrorized and
harassed by social media. Things thatwere stated in this courtroom, allegations that
were made have torn our lives upsidedown. We receive hate letters, letters
saying that they hope things. WhyI know you want to give a narrative.

(12:09):
She gets to answer this, misterJackson. The doors open yond to
future to answer the question why shewent to the house, as opposed to
the narrative behind her motivation. Itsounds to me like she's explaining why she
went to the house the door wasopen, mister jacksonon. We receive letters,

(12:30):
we receive emails, we receive calls, people drive by our house.
That was a rolling rally outside ofmy house where people just screamed at us.
They take pictures of our children.They took a picture of my daughter
and put semen on it and saidproperty of a some named blogger that I
think the defense is very familiar with. So that is why myself and Elizabeth

(12:52):
Procter got together. Michael Procter wasnot home. We are two mothers trying
to get through the unthinkable together.So you were upset about the public outrage
concerning your family's involvement in the deathof John O'Keefe. I was outraged because
I am a state witness that isbeing tortured because of lies, because of

(13:15):
public outrage concerning your family's involvement inthe death of a police officer. Correct,
No, it's a social media witchhunt. I see. So you
decided that the best way for youto address that angst that you were feeling
is to go to the lead investigator'shome personal home in this case. Correct,

(13:37):
I went to visit Elizabeth Proctor.Michael Proctor was not home, so
just like when you went to Michael. I'm sorry when you went to Sergeant
Lent's house and the only person youmet with was his wife. When you
went to Michael Proctor's house, yourclaim is the only person you met with
was his wife. I personally didnot go to Mike Lanks. It was

(14:01):
not Jen going to Michael Lanx.It was Carrie Roberts dropping her daughter off,
and I happened to be in thecar with her. Elizabeth Proctor I
met with because we couldn't take thetorture any longer. And you were later
asked about this unrecorded visit at TrooperProctor's home by Massachusetts State Police. Correct,

(14:22):
Can you remind me sure? Didyou have a conversation with Trooper bid
the name Toully, who interviewed youspecifically about your contact with Michael Proctor.
Could I have seen the report torefreshman memory? Do you not remember having
a conversation with Toll I've had manyconversations over the last two years. Over

(14:46):
the last two years with a numberof troopers. Okay, do you All
I'm asking you is do you andI've got to report that refreshing recollection.
I want to know, first ofall, do you remember having a conversation
about your relationship with Michael and ElizabethProctor with trooper talk. I know I
had a conversation with a trooper aboutit. I don't remember exactly which trooper.

(15:11):
Yes, it's the multipage. I'mgonna shore this page. Thank you.
Take a look at the face pageof that, read it to yourself,
and then i'd ask you to turnto the tabbed page, paragraph twenty
seven. Okay, you have thatin mind? Yes, May I approach

(15:52):
your honor? Yes? Does thatrefresh your recollections? Mckaye, you had
a conversation or an interview formal interviewwith Tuper Tolley about your relationship with Elizabeth
and Michael problem. Yes, andyou told actually, let me back up
for a second. Okay, wasthat somewhere in the vicinity of late September

(16:17):
early October when you had that conversation. Is there a date on it,
man, I approach honor. Yes, there's a date stamp on the bottom.
Take a look at that date stampon the bottom and tell me if
that refreshes your recollection of about thetime that that conversation would have taken place.

(16:38):
Well, the dates stamp on thebottom is one it was I'm assuming
entered into evidence, right. Thatdoesn't say when the interview itself was.
Right, So if you'll agree withme, you know that you had the
meeting with Elizabeth I'm sorry, atElizabeth and Michael Crockett's home sometime in September
twenty twenty three. Correct. Correct, that's dated October of twenty twenty three.

(17:02):
That's what I'm trying to get toyou. I don't live a date
because it's not dated, so Idon't either. So do you think it
was between September and October? Itmust have? Thank had it been right?
Correct? Okay, thank you.Before I get to that, I've
got a couple of other questions.You had at some point multiple phone calls

(17:30):
with Michael Proctor after January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two. Correct, I
believe. So okay, do youremember all the phone calls that you had
with them? No? I don't. Would refresh your recollection take a look
at a log of your phone calls. Yes, that'd be great, thank
you. Approach. Yes, isthis what was max Era zero? Or

(17:56):
this morning? That will be next? Okay, it's just a foot once
at a time highlighted thank you hadto look at that and tell me if
you specifically. There's a lot ofcalls there. There are blue tabs.
You could look at those blue tabsand then tell me when you've taken a

(18:18):
look at those. Okay, that'sa more yes there, k Yes,

(19:08):
thank you, You're welcome. Havinglooked at this set of records, does
this appear to be an accurate reflectionof the phone calls that you shared with
Michael Proctor at some point after onand after January twenty ninth. Yes,
just to summarize those, and Idon't want to belabor this, but there
was a call on the twenty ninthat ten fifty five am with superc correct.

(19:33):
Correct. There was a call onthe twenty ninth at twelve forty nine
pm. Correct. I didn't memorizethem. I understand, would you?
So if you want to give methe paperback, then I could probably answer
correctly. You want to pay thatway, we can man, Yes,
thank you, thank you? Okay. First call, January twenty ninth,

(20:02):
ten fifty five am, tri perProctor calls you for a minute in seventeen
seconds cracked. Next tap, Januarytwenty ninth, twelve forty nine pm,
Triper Proctor calls you for minute ineight seconds cracked. January thirtieth, At
nine to fifty one am, youcalled Trouper Proctor four second call, probably

(20:26):
a voicemail or something, January thirtieth. A minute later, nine to fifty
two am, you then call TuerProctor again twenty one minutes and thirty one
seconds. That call cracked. Januarythirtieth. Same day, four to forty
five pm, Triper Proctor calls younine minutes and forty three seconds correct January

(20:48):
thirty first. The next day,at eleven fifty one am, you call
Triper Proctor for two minutes in fiftythree seconds cracked. That is the of
those callous correct correct, papach.Yes, those aren't all the calls that
you had with to Per Proctor thatdidn't stop. Just where these logs stop.

(21:12):
Correct, I'd have to see myfurther callagues. Do you believe that
you've had additional phone calls with Touperproctorafter that last call on the thirty first?
I know I did in twenty twentythree, Okay, in twenty twenty
two, did you have any additionalphone calls with it? I'm not sure
i'd have to look at phone recordsmay have on your own. Yes,

(21:40):
maybe approach, Thank you, ToriMay I inquire, Yes, thank you,
Mss McKay. I don't have therecords in front of me that you

(22:03):
will. They'll be found before theend of our conversation. But in the
meantime for expedition. Do you remembera call on February fourteenth with Trooper Proctor,
lasting about seventeen minutes, I don'tknow. You remember a call on
February seventeenth, lasting about two minutes? I don't know. Do you remember
a call on February twenty eighth,lasting about two minutes? I don't recall.

(22:30):
Again, I expect that your answeris going to be I don't recall,
but I want to make a recordif I could. So this is
not a test of your memory atthis point. I don't expect you to
have it memorize. I just wantto ask if maybe one of these standout
in the mind for all of them. What about a second call on February
twenty eighth, lasting about a minute? Don't recall? On March first,

(22:52):
another call with Trooper Proctor, lastingabout a minute, I did not recall.
Apparently a second call on March first, lasting about two minutes in a
few seconds, I don't recall.On March eleventh, another call in the
afternoon, lasting about twelve minutes,I don't recall. And finally a call
toward the end of March March twentyninth, lasting about four minutes, again

(23:18):
I don't recall. Okay, understoodthat this is on a memory test and
I don't have the records infoty,So I apologize on that based on the
conversation that we've just had. Doesthat jog your memory that you had multiple
calls in February and March with TrooperProctor as well as the calls we've gone
over with the records in January.To be honest, I had calls with

(23:42):
many people. I was in astate of shock for months following this.
So if you have the record,I can answer off of that. But
besides that, just reading them tome does not jog my memory. I'm
sorry. That's okay. You wouldn'tquarrel with the idea. I don't want
to hold you to a number.You wouldn't quarrel with the idea that you
had multiple calls with Trooper Proctor inJanuary. In February in March. Correct,

(24:07):
well, the ones I've just sawon the record. Yes, there
were multiple calls there, and ofcourse you met him in your home on
January twenty ninth. On January twentyninth, yes, I did, and
he came into your living room.You had a conversation with him in my
dining room. Yes, I'm sorry, your dining room. And also Carrie
Roberts was there. Carry Roberts wasnot there on the twenty ninth. Carry

(24:29):
Roberts was not at my house onthe twenty ninth. Now, but when
was she at your house when she'sinterviewed? I believe that was the Tuesday,
whatever the date was, maybe first, that's und right, first or
second? Yeah, something, itwas the Tuesday following, okay. And
was that with Trooper Proctor or adifferent trooper a different trooper And with Trooper

(24:51):
Proctor on the twenty ninth when hewas interviewing you in your dining room,
that was the day that Bryan Albertwas also there? Correct? And was
right Ilbert also interviewed on that day? I believe so. So Tripper Proctor
was in your house for gosh,it had to have been an hour.
I'm not sure. After I interviewed, I went upstairs and then my children
started waking up, and I wastied upstairs for a while. I'm not

(25:15):
sure when or how long he wasthere, but your memory is clear that
not only did you meet Trooper Proctoron that day, you had a full
conversation with him. It was inyour house, that was in your kitten,
in your dining room, and anotherwitness was interviewed by Triper Proctor in
your home as well. Correct,And then you had multiple conversations with him
in January, on that day,the day after, and the day after

(25:37):
that. All you've seen those records, yes, correct, been either September
or October. We were interviewed bysargant tell by the Intendant Tulle. That's
the importance you've already seen. Correct. And in that interview you were asked
specifically whether or not you had arelationship with Trooper Proctor and when that relationship
started. Correct. Correct, Andyou said, quote, you had never

(26:02):
met Elizabeth Proctor or Michael Proctor priorto September twenty twenty three. Correct.
I did not say that, soyet again, this is another example of
a trooper completely getting it wrong.Is that right? Objection sustain and ask
it differently. Did in your view, did Lieutenant Tully get your statement wrong

(26:25):
that you had never met Trooper Proctorbefore September of twenty twenty three? Objection?
Is that true or is that wrong? Lieutenant Tally knew I met Proctor
prior to that, because Proctor wasthe one who did the initial interview on
January twenty ninth. Does it makeyou wonder why he wrote in his statement

(26:47):
quote, You've actually never met ElizabethProctor or Michael Proctor prior to September twenty
twenty. So the objection sustained.If you indicated that you had never met
Trooper Proctor before September of twenty twentythree, that would be a false statement.
Correct objection. You can answer that, Miss McCain, I met Proctor

(27:08):
January twenty ninth. It's everywhere.If you said it, would it have
been false. It's all enough.Yes. On January twenty ninth, in
the early morning hours, I wantto take you all the way back to

(27:29):
one forty five am when you leftthirty four Fairview on the twenty ninth.
Where did after you dropped off thegirls, where did you and Matt in
dicay, you go, we camehome. After you got home, you
indicated that you went upstairs. Correct. Correct. After you went upstairs,
you indicated that you got on thephone, cracked on your cell phone.

(27:53):
Correct. After you got on yourcell phone, you indicated that you started
searching for stuff. Correct. Soif there's GPS that you've seen, the
forensic extraction, are part of it? Correct? Which one are you referring
to the forensic extraction of your phone? I saw us what you showed me
yesterday from Celebrate. That's what Imean. Okay, part of it?

(28:18):
I saw yeah, the phone calls. Yes, Okay, you're aware that
that extraction shows that you got homeafter two am or so, so that
would be general and correct. Correct. The Celebrate extraction shows from your Apple
health data that you actually went upa set of stairs. That would be
accurate. Correct, accurate. Celebratedata shows that you actually log into your

(28:41):
phone. Did a log in eitherface idea or a pass code opened up
the phone? That would be accurate. Correct. Celebrate data shows that you
were engaging with an app called Safarito engage some goop searches. Correct,
Yes, that would be generally accurateas well. Correct. Yes, So
after you opened up Safari, youindicated that you google searched something about Ozone

(29:06):
basketball. Is that right? Yes? That was some time after two am?
Right? Yes? What was soimportant about Ozone basketball at two am
that it couldn't wait until the morning? Why did you search it? Thin?
Well, first, I was home, I was wide awake, and
I had been texting about a basketballchat and basketball was clearly on my mind.

(29:32):
My daughter had been invited to joina team. I didn't know much
about the team, so I justwas like googling to see because the woman
who had given my daughter the offerhad wanted an answer. So you say
that the basketball was on your mind? Correct? Yes? Was there anything
else on your mind in the earlymorning our time frame, don't believe.

(29:55):
So it was the case if youwanted to know, in general, how
long it takes for a human beingto pass away because of exposure to extreme
temperatures? Right, If you wantedto know the answer to that, what
would you google search? What phrasewould you use? I'm not sure.

(30:17):
All I recall is what the defendantasked me to google in the morning.
If you wanted to know, I'masking a different question. If you personally
wanted to know how long does ittake for a person to die of exposure
due to extreme temperatures? What wouldyou put in? What phrase would you
use? Assistain, Well, wedon't have to guess at the phrase that

(30:40):
you would use if you wanted toknow something about dying of hypothermia? Do
we did you actually google search?It sustained? Ask that differently, Please,
did you in fact use a phraseto Google search how long it takes
for someone to die of extreme temperatures? I did in the morning, at
the request of your client. Andwhat phrase did you use? I'm not

(31:06):
sure really correct? I was twoand a half years of this. You
don't know the phrase that you used? Jestion horn. There's so many lies
and misconceptions on social media questions,Oh, I apologize, Okay? Are
you telling me you don't remember whatGoogle search you put in? Karen was

(31:30):
screaming. My hands were shaking,and she was saying, google hypothermia,
how long does it take to diein the cold? And what did you
What phrase did you put in yourphone? I'm just asking you to say
it. Why don't you show meit? You literally don't remember? Again,
she was screaming, Google hypothermia?How long does it take to die

(31:51):
in the cold? About? AndI picked up my phone and I started
googling, and you literally to thisday right now under oath, you're saying
you don't remember that phrase that youuse. Objection, I'll allow it.
Is that what you're saying, I'msaying that at her if you remember it?
Or do you not? Miss mckaid, that's a simple question. That

(32:12):
morning, I don't remember specifically whatI googled, but I do know what
you've put out to the social media. How about this hoss long to die
in cold? Does that sound familiar? Yeah, it's been everywhere. Why
does that sound so familiar because you'veput it out in social media? Well,
I haven't put anything out in socialmedia because I don't personally have social
media. I'm sorry, turt aboy dad. What if the world happens

(32:32):
to know it, that's not onme. I guess not. I guess
not. Hoss Long to Die inCold is what you put in to the
Google search? Right if you sayso? Is there a reason that you
don't want to admit to that?Absolutely not. I have simple question,
no reason, So say it?What Google search? Did you use?

(32:57):
Objection? Sustained you were seeking atsome point to google how long to Die
in the Cold? Correct? Correct, and you made a mistake and mistakenly
typed hoslong to die in cold?Correct? You could show me it,

(33:17):
I'd appreciate it. You later googlesearch may approach. Yes, thank you.
While she looks at that, misterJackson, can we bring our clerk

(33:39):
back upstairs? Of course? Yes, I think we're thank you very much.
Can you text Jimmy and tell himtake a look at that report and
tell me that refreshingly recklete? Yes, it does appear to be an act.

(34:00):
You're at uh page from a celebrateextraction from your phone? It does?
Okay, they have that, Yes, they have that person. Did
you see this the actual search phrase? Yes? Is that not recollection?
Yes? But I'd like to havethis more because next order please? Is

(34:23):
there an objection? Mister ally?Now you are jim Yeah? Yah?
Yes? Is that madame court recorder? I thank you great published this you?

(34:49):
Okay? Yes? M hm.Does this appear to be the document
that was just marked it at ninetynine? Yes? I know it's a
little bits you know you see thiscalumn? Yes, third column before all

(35:15):
the last one. Some days ofsome data and then a Google search correct?
Correct? What does that Google searchsay? House long to die and
cold? Now you indicate that youdid that. You made that search at
six twenty three am correct Correct,and then you indicated that you did it

(35:37):
again thereafter. It's six twenty fourcorrect correct six twenty four. You misspelled
the phrase and you spelled it asfollows how long TI die in cik D
correct? Correct. Now you claimthat those two searches were six three and

(36:00):
six twenty four am respective correct.Chection phrase it differently? Sure. You
indicated under direct examination that these twosearches were at six twenty three and six
twenty four am right. I don'tknow if I gave exact times, but
I said it was in the morningand Karen had asked me to do it,
and you exactly. You claimed thatyou searched it because Karen were screaming

(36:22):
at you were yelling at you googlehypothermia and you googled how long does it
take for a person to die?I'm sorry, she said something like how
long does it take for a personto die at hypothermia? And you google
searched it at six twenty three andsix twenty four is that right? Again,
I'm not sure about the exact times, and just did it after Karen
asked me to do it. Wouldyou quarrel with the idea that those were

(36:44):
about thirty seconds apart? Okay?And you're aware, miss McKay, that
both spellings, both misspellings of thatphrase result in the exact same search results
dot the I'm not aware of that. No, Well you google them,

(37:07):
ma'am. You're looking on your phoneand you google postlong to die and cold
and how long to die in CIKDclothing? Those you google them? Right?
I did, yes, and theyresult in the exact same search results.
Built it. I have no idea, So my question to you is

(37:30):
why were you searches? She wasstanding next to me, screaming, shaking
my hand. My hand was cold. I was trying to google it.
Obviously, maybe whatever came out firstdidn't make sense because I had some misspellings.
So I did it again. Sohosslong to Die in cold results in

(37:51):
articles concerning dying of exposure. Wenever got the chance to read it.
Well, you're the one when yousay we it's wee Karen and myself.
Well, you're the one holding thephone. Mis the cave. Correct.
You're looking down at your phone andyou see exactly what comes up, right,
I don't remember exactly what came up. Well, what came up was

(38:12):
something about dine hypothermia, didn't itThat's what she asked? So why do
it again? Why do it again? Miss McKay? You had the results.
Why the second search? I cannotanswer that beyond telling you that my
hands were frozen. She was shakingme and screaming at me. And you

(38:32):
see the time still up according tothe Celebrate data. You see this first
search that says host on for dining. Hold I do what's that time?
You've got the it's right over atto twenty seven am or pm am this

(38:58):
mckaid. You made that search attwo twenty seven am because you knew that
John O'Keefe was outside and your sister'sbond dying in the cold. Didn't you
absolutely not? I did not makethat search at that time. Now was
the next morning, after John wasdiscovered after six am that you had an
incriminating search on your phone? Didn'tyou absolutely not? To cover your tracks,

(39:25):
you searched it again in order tooverwrite your original search at t twenty
seven Correct again absolutely not, butyou were nervous and you screwed it up.
So the first search you made atsix twenty three was pstlong to die
in cik D, wasn't it?Now when you see the search right there?

(39:52):
Correct, I see the search,but I disagree with your narrative.
And what's the time frame of thatsearch? And you agreed that timeframe is
accurate? Right again, it's whatthe report says, and that's what that
comports with your memory of that morning, about six twenty three in the morning,
in fifty one seconds. There's asecond search, correct, And this

(40:19):
one at six twenty four says hosongto die and hole six twenty four sixteen
correct. Correct, I'm sorry eighteenThat was a fifth grade and that comports
with your memory as well. Iremember googling it at the request of the
defendant. Yes, twenty seven secondsapart. Correct, Yes, But the

(40:44):
reality is your first search didn't comportwith the two twenty seven am search,
did it. It was a differentspell, wasn't it. I never searched
to twenty seven. That is notreality. But the six four search did
exactly mirror the search that, accordingto this report, took place. It

(41:07):
to twenty seven correct, I'm sureI celebrate will be able to explain it
to you. I can't. Andthen all those three searches, one of
them ended up deleted. Isn't thatright? I never deleted any search.
Take a look at the Soul WritingReport top search, the column mark deleted

(41:34):
what do you see? I seeA yes became the reason you deleted that
to twenty seven am call because yourealized that if you were caught googling how
long it takes for a person todie in the hole three and a half
hours before John's body was found,that would incriminate you with objection. The

(41:58):
objection sustained. Did you delete thatsearch because you knew that you would be
implicated in John O'Keeffe's death if thatsearch was found on your phone? Chection,
Well, could you answer that please? I did not delete that search.
I never made that search at twotwenty three. I never would have

(42:19):
left John O'Keeffe out in the coldto die, because he was my friend
that I loved. But he's notYour family is family and friends. Injection
sustain. You acknowledge that you madethe search at six twenty three, don't
you In the morning, I didYes, acknowledge that you made the search

(42:39):
at six twenty four multiple times inthe morning. Yes. Of the three
searches that show up that were allfound on your phone, the one that
you disavowed is the one that tookplace at two twenty seven am, which
would implicate you and he was hooneratemy client correct, checktion sustained. You

(43:00):
can ask it differently, mister Jackson. Of those ree searches, there was
only one that's deleted, isn't thatright? Correct? That was the one
at two twenty seven am. Correct. I wouldn't even know how to go
in and delete, sir. Iasked you the one, according to the
Celebrate report that was deleted, theone at two twenty seven am. Correct.

(43:23):
Correct. You would agree that that'sawfully convenient for you jection sustain,
So I have your opinion. Okay, mister Allie, thank you, Yes,
thank you, good morning, thengood morning. Going back a little

(44:05):
bit, you were asking questions aboutLife three sixty application that you had on
your phones at right. Yes,and you're familiar with that app. I'm
familiar with sort of using that appto see where your children are at various
times. Is that correct? Yes? And from your experience of using that
app. How accurate is it asfar as location and time or anything in

(44:27):
regard to it? Pretty accurate,varying some of their locations and sometimes weather.
Have you ever had instances in whichyou were told someone was somewhere and
they were not there? Yes?You were asking questions about Brian Nagel's truck
right, yes? And do youknow or did you on January twenty ninth,

(44:52):
twenty twenty two, did you knowRyan Nagels? I did not.
Do you know what kind of vehiclehe drove? I did not keep your
voice, mister Lilly. Please doyou know whether or not that was actually
somebody else's true? I do notknow know whether or not. On January
twenty nine, twenty twenty two,Ryan Agel had a friend named Ricky.
I do now, But on thetwenty ninth, did you now on the

(45:14):
twenty ninth, did you have anyidea what kind of vehiclehedro now? This
person? You didn't know right?Correct? Now? When you looked outside
as far as the truck was concerned, did you even see a truck?
I just saw lights vehicle. Ididn't focus much attention to what was over
there. I flare to say youweren't paying attention to a truck, you

(45:37):
didn't see a person you didn't knowthat you would never see before correct sustained
us to that for now. Youwere asked some questions about text between Ryan
Nagel and Julie Enango brect. Yes, And as far as when those texts
were sent, you don't know.Can you clarify? Do you know whether

(46:02):
or not Ryan Nagel texted his sisterJulie before you the even pulled on to
Fairview rob They were texting at abouthis arrival, texting about his arrival?
Do you know where Ryan Nagel waswhen he was texting Julie about his arrival?
I believe he was outside, butyou don't know. Is that very
sad? Yes? Sustained. Doyou know whether or not Ryan Nagel was

(46:25):
on Cedar Press or somewhere else whenyou texted Julie that he was about to
arrive or that he was in position? Well, Lowe, do you know
that? I don't know that.Now, As far as the defendant's motor
vehicle and this truck mister Nagel wasin, did you see either of those
vehicles arrive in front of Fairy yes, you saw them pull up? No,

(46:45):
Actually, are you asking if Isaw them pulling up or if I
saw and they arrived. I didnot see them pulling up. So at
some point after they arrived, yourattention was drawn outside? Yes? And
when? Which thing about you goingto the door and looking outside? How
long a period are you looking at? Not long? So would you describe

(47:08):
it as either a glance or moreof a were staring intently at the vehicle
out in front of Hofer edition sustained. How would you describe the manner in
which you were looking out at theYESUV in front of the house. I
would go to the front door,I look out, I saw the vehicle.
I believe, I sent a textand I went and sat back down.

(47:30):
Now, in any of those timesthat you went to the door,
and do you know how many timesyou went to the door, I don't
know exactly. At least twice,is that correct? At least? Yes?
Now, in those at least twicethat you will at least twice that
you saw the vehicle and twice thatyou once that you saw the vehicle was
gone, right, Yeah, SoI guess actually it was more than twice,

(47:51):
because I saw the vehicle move aswell. And when you say as
far as you saw the vehicle move, did you see the vehicle physically moved
or it was it more place andthen you came back later it was different.
It was in one place, andthen when I came back it was
further up. Now, at anyof those points and times you took the
plans out of the storm door,did you see anybody outside of the vehicle?

(48:12):
No? Did you see inside ofthe vehicle? No? Did you
see anybody outside other than Julien Agoon the front lawn or front walkway or
anything else. No. At anypoint in time while you were at thirty
fourth Fairview that night, didn't seeJohn o'keith. Now, at any point
in time when you texted John o'keeffafter you arrived at fair View, did
John o'keith respond. At any pointin time after you arrived at Fairview,

(48:34):
after you hung up from the twelveeighteen am haul in which you were describing
where thirty fourth fair of View wasin reference to Bella's house, did you
ever hear from John o'keef ever again, No, And during that about twenty
minutes or so period of time whenmister O'Keefe or indefendant stuv is in front

(48:54):
of the house. You never heardanything from John O'Keeffe direct, correct?
And did that strike you as unusualas far as you're not responding, I
thought it was strange, but thenI thought that they just might have decided
to go home, or had gotteninto a fight, or Kaylee wanted him
home. Now you're looking out throughthe storm door and you see the lexus

(49:19):
with its lights right, correct,And from that area, the secondary area
up by the flag hole and thefire hydrant, that's the same area where
you found John o'keith the next morning. Correct. Correct, And with reference
to that area, is or anylights as far as lights or anything that
you're aware of in that area.No, it's a dark area in the

(49:40):
corner of the lot. Now,at any point in time were you looking
or were you expecting to see John'sbody on the lawn. Absolutely not.
And Fairy Salem, when you're lookingin the dark in the snow from storm
door out towards the vehicle, notthe same conditions as if you're standing in

(50:02):
a courtroom or sitting in a courtroomtoday about ten feet away from somebody during
the daytime, with lights on correct. Correct. In fact, when you
go back to Fairview the next morning, and again, who was the person
who requested or directed to go toFairview, Karen? And so when you

(50:23):
go to fair of you along withthe defendant and miss Roberts at the defenise
direction sometime around six am, whenwas it that you first saw mister Rokeith.
I wasn't the one to first seehim, Karen was. So she's
banging on the door asking it tobe let out. She goes directly over
to the box. Correct. Correct, and neither you nor misus Roberts.

(50:46):
Well, you didn't see mister o'keithon the lawn until after she did that
correct correct, And that was afteryou had already sort of driven a little
bit of pashed where he was correct. Correct out with reference to you get
home from Fairview around two am orsomewhere in that time frame, you go

(51:07):
up to bed and you do somesearches on your phone right, correct.
And so there's a Safari tabic oran application on your phone that's where you
access Google. Yes, And isthat typically where you would access Google?
Yes? And you were looking atOzone Basketball. You're also looking at Hawkermark

(51:28):
is that right? Sustained? Whatif anything else were you looking at beyond
the ozone basketball you talked about.We had had an exciting game earlier in
the night against a local town thathas a very good basketball program. So
I went on hawk Amok Sports tolook at the recap and typically I'll do
that to see how other teams did, et cetera. And around that same

(51:50):
time, is that correct? Correct? Now? Within when you did that
as part of looking things up onGoogle, were you opening up new tabs
within so far already as you werelooking at different websites or different different topics.
Now and when you went to betteryou want to that evening at some
point you turned off your phone right? Correct? And did you x out

(52:14):
that box that Safari tab that youwere doing those searches with regard to Odona
Hakama? No, I used toalways leave my tabs that open, and
my kids would yell at me asfar as having mobile tabs open. Is
that correct? It means my battery, et cetera. Yes. So then
flash forward through sometime after six am. You're on the side of the road

(52:35):
and defendant asked you to conductor lookup something with regard to hypothermia or how
long did die in the pool?Correct? Correct? When you opened that
up and you go into Google,did you open up a new tab or
did you just sort of go intowhat you had already opened in the SAPARi
tab? I went to what Ialready had opened, And that's where you
perform the search. Is that right? Excuse me? That's where you perform

(52:57):
the search that you were just beingasked about. Yes, and you never
made any search like that at yourtwenty seven in the morning direct I did
not know. Now again, you'vebeen shown what's been called a cell right
extraction reports. Correct? Yes?Are you familiar with how many cell right

(53:20):
extraction imports were conducted in reference toyour phone? I think a couple of
them? Actually, not sure?And prior to January twenty nine to twenty
twenty two, had you ever seencell right extraction import? Now? I
think caliers you did. Do youeven really know what that is? Not?
Really? Now? You know whata wall file is? No?
You know when I asked you likedatabases? No? You know what a

(53:42):
knowledge profile see database is? No? You know how information is stored and
kept within your cell phone? No? Now, as far as let me
ask you this is you had fourchildren, and you you were a mom,
a homemader. Correct, correct?At some point you did work though,

(54:04):
right, yes, what did youdo for it? I was an
elementary school teacher? What grade didyou do? One question and we'll see
where this goes. What grade didyou teach fifth? And how long did
you teach fifth grade? Rotation?I want to see council inside them tel
free to stand up. Yeah,I could take you back to four fifty

(54:39):
three in the morning. Is whenyou get that first call from Kayley pirgortion?
Is that correct? Correct? Answerthat call? And then the defendant
is put on the line correct,yes, And so what is the first
sort of iteration of the story thatthe defendant tells you happened the night before
that they got into a fight,she left him at the waterfall and he
never came home. And at somepoint later you confront her with that you

(55:05):
saw the vehicle out front of thehouse. Correct? Correct? And so
then what is the defendant story changedfor that one that they went there?
And it changed multiple times. I'mnot sure exactly. She said. At
one point, oh my god,I don't even remember going there. She

(55:27):
was telling other people that he wasdead. That apply hit him. The
story changed multiple times that morning.Now on cross examination, you were played
a voicemail. You know whose ownthat voicemail was from. They never said
no fair to say that you're onnine one one in the background of that
phone call correct, correct phone correct, And there's two other people beyond that.

(55:53):
As far as Miss Roberts and thedefend the correct correct was on the
phone at all that you saw.No. And so with reference to the
timing of that phone, you hadall nine one one and you were on
the phone with nine one one atthe time that recording the starts right correct.

(56:14):
So you had gotten out of thecar, you had gone around and
then seen where the defendant had runover to Miss Jokey direct as to the
form it sustained, what had youdone before you placed that nine one one
call. I got out of thecar, I ran behind the car over

(56:36):
to the body. I was ina state of shock for a couple of
seconds. Carrie and I looked ateach other and I said, I'm going
to call nine one one. Andthere was a period of time when you
made the call before connected, andyou send your announcing around to different agencies.
Correct, Yes, And this isafter the defendant has hit the door

(56:58):
and run from the vehicle over too'kee's ball. Right, Yes, so
it's not your phone and it's notmiss Roberts's phone. Fair inference is to
the defendant's phone. Correct, Correct, And so this phone call had been
made or started recording at some pointsbefore you had even gotten out of the

(57:20):
call, made way over to mistero'keys been in the state of shock for
a few seconds, called nine oneone, connected to nine one one,
So at some point it had tohave been made in the park, correct.
Just ask it differently. Do youknow when that voicemail or that recording
that you've heard, you know whenthat call was placed? I don't now

(57:44):
at the time that you are makingthe nine one one call, where's the
defendant in relation to the view she'sover with mister o'keeth, you mentioned that
the part beyond the nine on onecall where you've heard yourself talking, you're
at the rear of Miss Roberts' vehicle. Yes, And why are you at

(58:07):
the rear of Miss roberts table Inthe beginning, I'm at the rear gathering
towels or blankets, and then afew times they go to the rear because
I'm trying to speak with the nineone one, and Karen is screaming hysterically,
and then Carrie starts screaming at herto calm down. It was quite

(58:30):
chaotic, so I was moving awayso that I could be clear with the
operators. Now, at some pointyou went into your sister's house at thirty
four, right yes? And whydid you Officer Lank asked me to go
in and wake them up, Soyou were asking them in there by the

(58:51):
police to wake them up, rightsustained. And at some point you indicated
that you had called Officer Length tocome back to the house, right yes,
And how did you get into thenumber again, Julie Albert And as
far as be aware, whether ornot Brian Albert or Old Albert or any

(59:12):
of the other people that were presenthad Oxer length number projection sustained, why
did you ask Julie Albert and notBrian Albert Nicole Albert because I knew she
was the only one that had hisnumber. You're asked some questions about ask
some questions about when you're on scene, and you indicated in your testimony and

(59:34):
direct that you've heard of the defendantsay I hit him, I hit him,
I hit him. Correct. Yes, you're also early in your testimony
had indicated that earlier in the morning, the defendant had phrased that differently.
As far as put I haindam ordid I correct? Sustained is to the
form you're the defendant make a varietyof statements over the course of the line.

(59:54):
Correct. Yes, And more tomy point, as far as you
call testifying in another hearing under oathin June of twenty twenty correct, yes,
and you were called being asked somequestions specifically about this talk. Oh,
yes, I love okay, John, Yes, go ahead. Yeah,

(01:00:30):
it's the case as I was askingbefore. In June of twenty twenty
three, you testified in another proceedcorrect. Correct, And you asked questions
specifically about those statements that you heardthe defendants say on the morning of January
twenty eight correct. Correct, Andyou call specifically what your testimony was in
regard to that portion of you inregard to those statements, I don't recall

(01:00:52):
specifics just to I know what,I know what, I know, I
know what happened approach Trump. Yeah, I'm giving you two pages Director attentions
to the bottom of the first pageand then into the next page. If

(01:01:13):
you could just that south and lookup the page again is to Ellie sixteen
and eight seventeen. Yes, misterKatie, you remember your fresh asked what'son
said in that prior proceeding in regardto those cities? Yes, what did
you say? What did I say? And that I told them that Karen

(01:01:38):
looked straight at me and said,I hit him, I hit him,
I hit him? And I saidthat there was I believe in emt that
overheard as well. Do you recallin that same prior proceeding being asked any
questions sort of at different times thedefendan saying different iterations of that same statement.

(01:02:02):
OK, standards to form no leading, mister Welling with respect to that
prior, that's that's money, thatsame privacy. Uh, what if anything
else? Were you asked about statementsthat defended made you? That morning?
I was asked what were some ofthe statements that miss Reid had made?

(01:02:22):
And it was like, repeat,did I hit him? Could I have
hit him? Is he dead?Is he dead? Is he dead?
Could I have hit him? DidI hit him? I have a cracktail
light? And then her I hithim. I hit him. I hit
him. And so with respect toquestions and as far as did I hit

(01:02:44):
him or could I have hit himand the statement I hit him, those
were at different times. Correct.Now. We met with doctor on January
twenty ninth, is that correct?Correct? Was that the first time that
you were met correct? If anyonewas wakening when you met, I believe

(01:03:08):
it was Truper Yuri. And subsequentto that day, did you meet with
other troops here? Yes? Andother troopers I mean not for the procer
and not super Yes. And withrespect to meeting with other troopers, was
at that point that they had talkedto you about taking your phone? Correct?

(01:03:32):
And they asked your for your phone? Is that correct? I had
sheered my life three sixty and myLife three sixty and my texts, and
they asked if they could take acopy of my phone. And did you
agree to them? I agreed toit? Yes? And were you presented
a form at all in regard toyour agreed to hand over your phone?

(01:03:55):
Yes, and beyond what you wouldsatisfied to earlier as far as thank you,
when there any limitations that you puton what they could look at or
take from your phone, no limitations. I'm showing you a document and stats

(01:04:16):
to look at it. Mm hmmm, just in generalman, do you recognize
that? Yes? What do yourecognize that? This was the consent form
from my phone? So that's theform you filled out with the true ers
in regards to giving over your phone. Correct, Yes, a multi sequensif

(01:04:40):
certain objections to Jackson, No objection, Thank you, Thank you again,
Miss McKay. Initially following that theevents of initially that morning around six am

(01:05:03):
or so, at some point youwere seeking or you had actually asked for
Kerry Roberts's home own correctly, Yes, And why is it that you were
looking for Kerry's numbers? Well,she was driving, conditions were terrible.
She was driving to Braintree to pickup mister and missus O'Keeffe and then they

(01:05:23):
were heading to the hospital and Iwas just looking to see how John was
doing. You had mentioned at somepoint did you see Miss Roberts that morning
in regard to updates as far ashow John was doing. Yes, And
you mentioned that later on either thatday or the next day, that you
had gone over to mister O'Keefe's housewith Miss Roberts, correct, Yes,

(01:05:46):
And who was driving at the timethat you went over to yo'keefe's house with
Miss Roberts. Kerry was driving.And so when you left the Ookie house,
where was it that you want?Kerrie went to drop her daughter off
at her friend's house, the daughterof Mike Lank And you were just in
the front passenger seat of that video. Yes, you had mentioned as far

(01:06:10):
as getting together with Miss Roberts atthe request of someone to talk about a
timeline. Yes, and can youexplain to the jury sort of how that
came about her or who was makingthat request. Kerry called me and she
told me that she could talk toPeggy, and Peggy had no I'm going
to along, and Peggy had suggestedto Kerry, you know, you guys

(01:06:34):
should write a timeline. You know, you don't want to forget anything,
you know when the time comes,meaning if when the trial comes, you
don't want to forget anything that happened. And just to be clear when you
say, Peggy, who are yourpark missus O'Keeffe, John's mother, correct?
Now, you were asked some questionsabout subsequent date as far as hearing

(01:07:01):
bits and pieces or portions of MissRoberts statement to troopers at your home?
Correct? Correct? You know whetheror not that was the first time that
Miss Roberts had talked to troopers orofficers or anyone from you. That began
police and State LAE. I believeon the twenty ninth in the afternoon,
troopers went to her house, Sothat would have been the first time.

(01:07:23):
So the time that she was atyour home and speaking to troopers, that
would have been at least the secondtime that she's hoping the troopers direct sustained.
Now with reference to Miss Roberts andher phone, was Miss Roberts the
time that you handed your phone overto the troopers, was Miss Roberts present
there as well? Yes? Andwhat if anything did you see Miss Roberts

(01:07:45):
do with respect to her phone andthe troopers? She turned her phone over
as well and signed the consent.Now, during that time you had indicated
that you had heard a statements thatyou said was horrified you and way is
that correct from Miss Roberts? Yes? Correct? What was that? What
was she talking? Suggestion? Thedoor has been opened, mister Jackson.

(01:08:10):
That means you can answer. Sobasically, Carrie is a talker, and
once she started I think just justfocus on she said. Okay, she
said something like John really loved Amy, and in my eyes Karen was just
a babysitter with benefit. And isthat what made a memorial to you?

(01:08:33):
As far as what it transpired atthat time? Yes, at any point
in time, did you ever coordinateyour statement of Miss roberts statements with her
prior to testifying at any hearing orany proceeding at any point time? No,

(01:09:00):
he asked you when you came tothe area of thirty fourth Fairview Road
around six am and you saw mistero'keith, was he in the same clothes
that you had seen him in earlier? He had jeans and I believe the
same shirt on you and nothing additionalas far as the jacket or anything like
that that you saw, not thatI recall now again, as you were
driving down Fairview Road, if thedefendant did not bang on the door and

(01:09:26):
essentially jump out of the car andbee line over to mister o'keith with you
have stopped the car. Now,recall when you were leaving thirty four Fairview
Road earlier, as far as sometimebetween one thirty five, when Miss McCabe
is driving to recall whether or notthe roads were plowed or treated or anything
that you saw at that time.I know there was snow on them,

(01:09:48):
but I I can't recall specifics.As far as the defendant coming over your
house shortly after five am, wasthat something that you were expecting at the
time? Now, and what wasit prior to the defendant showing up and
sort of screaming in front of yourhouse? What was your your sort of

(01:10:08):
plan as far as based on theinformation that MS read it at all,
my husband and I were going togo out and we were going to drive
over to Tom Beady's house to seeif John was there. Now, as
far as the nine one one callthat you were making, that information that
you were providing, what was thatbased on what I was what I was

(01:10:28):
seeing. But as far as howmister o'keef had come to be there at
thirty four fair of your road whenyou're communicating any that the nine on one
operator or two opserons on scene,was that from your observations when you were
inside thirty four fair of view afterthe waterfall or from some other source,
Well, it was from what Karenwas saying as we were driving there,

(01:10:54):
so as far as him being droppedoff or anything like that, that came
from the defendant, correct? Now, as far as you would have been
asking, you testified about going overto a practic's house to meet with his
what correct? Correct? And youare testified about certain incidents of grassments that

(01:11:15):
you had undergone as well as missusProctor? Is that correct? Correct?
How long had that been going onat that point? At that point it
started in April and now I believeI would over there in September. And
what if anything, was the frequencyof the perps descratic or how often were

(01:11:38):
you using daily? Sometimes hourly?And in addition to what you've already testified,
what if any other incidents do yourecall specifically involving either you or your
children or your home. People comeby my house, they take video,
they scream, They've gone to mychild sporting events, called me names.

(01:12:02):
They've written letters to my daughter's collegesand said that they shouldn't allow them to
play, and then they've attached thesehorrific articles that have been complete lies about
all of us. They send meFacebook messages, they call my phone,
home phone, and cell phone allhours of the night. They tell me

(01:12:25):
to kill myself. They tell meI'm a terrible mother. They harass my
children. My daughter testified here theother day. We didn't even get out
of the building and people were sayinghorrendous things, that she's a liar.
You know your mother should die.It's just it's unimaginable what my entire family

(01:12:50):
is going through. I go tothe beach, they take pictures, they
post it, they threaten that theireyes everywhere. I'll never be able to
live normal life again. I ama witness, that's all I am.
I am not on trial. Iam a witness, and these people are
terrorizing me. Standards as to thatpart, I'll strike that part. Everything

(01:13:13):
else is stand And so you're understandingthat Missus Proctor had sustained similar issues as
you had. Correct Now again,trouper Michael Procter never met him prior to
January twenty nine, twenty twenty.I have never met him prior now.

(01:13:35):
And the time that you went overwas to meet with Elizabeth Procter. Was
super Michael Procter home at that time? No, he was not home.
And had you ever been over tohis house prior to that or anytime subsequence.
No? Never, Well, youdid have some conversations with Trooper Proctor

(01:13:56):
following this day and around the ESK. You testified a bit about a rolling
round exact correct correct, You describedto the juris of what that was or
what occurred on that So that dayin July, a group got together under
one blogger and they all met andthey decided to go to different houses.

(01:14:20):
So Michael Proctor had been made awareof what was happening, so he had
reached out to tell me, youknow, what was going to be happening
and how they had set up somecameras. It was a Saturday. I
had just come home from vacation withmy children and my husband. Missus O'Keefe

(01:14:42):
picked up my two younger children andbrought her brought them out with her so
they wouldn't be home for this,and my two older children and my husband
were in the house while about Idon't know, fifty to seventy five people
came to my house. They screamed, they yelled, there's a murderer.
They just caused an absolute ruckus outside. And prior to that, did you

(01:15:05):
have any conversation with Proper and theother troops from the State Police about knowledge
or knowledge of that incident occurring priorto its content. Yes, and as
far as setting up sort of wholecameras around your house to memorialize whatever is
going to happen. Yes. Nowyou're asking questions with regard to the Google

(01:15:28):
search again that was initiated after sixam. And why I am because Ms
Reid asked me to google how longto die from hypothermia? She said,
Google hypothermia, Google how long ittakes to die in the cold. She's
shaking me, screaming at me todo it, and she's shaking you as

(01:15:49):
typing. Is that rest correct?And there are some misspellings? Correct?
Correct? I also have MS andI have issue. I'll allow that I
have MS, and I have,you know, issues with my hands.
So I a lot of times googleand make errors. But the cold also

(01:16:10):
makes my hand go completely non SoI'm not surprised that that's how it would
come out when you were in yourbedroom sometime after two am thirsday. The
band wasn't there shaking you when youwere Google searching froze on basketball or Hawk
moccassister one moment, John, Yes, nothing further on. Okay, mister

(01:16:38):
Jackson, we are concerning statements Ihit him. He gave a statement by
January twenty ninth. It's a sergeantlight haul over specifically give him a statement

(01:16:59):
correct cracked. They have a statementthe next day. Sorry, later that
day trip of Proctor correct cracked.You're also met with on that following Tuesday
with a trooper named Prince correct cracked. And then you testified in April of
twenty twenty two. You were intwelve times about statements that you attributed to

(01:17:26):
less read correct correcked. And innot one of those instances, not one
is your report that says you said, she said I hit it correct correct.
Although I told Mike lank Oh,we already know that the officers all

(01:17:46):
got it wrong. Jackson here onsustained as to that next question, please,
mister Jackson, So you indicate thatyou were the harassment that you just
described as terrible harassment that you justdescribed started about April twenty twenty three,
correct. Correct. It was aroundthe time that there were public hearings concerning

(01:18:10):
this Google search. Is that right? Jection Oh Low, I'm not sure
exactly when the Google search came out, but you do know that you started
suffering this harassment that you've claimed isawful and terrible, et cetera, around
April of twenty twenty three. Isthat right? I didn't claim it's awful.
It is awful. Okay, I'msure it is awful, because I'm
sure it's terrible. It is.It sucks to be harassed, it really

(01:18:35):
does. Yeah, I'm sure itdoes. Jackson, you're on all right,
So that sustained, and i'll strikeit. Go ahead and ask a
question. Mister Jackson, you wereupset by April of twenty twenty three that
there was public outrage about your familybeing involved in the death of John o'peace.

(01:18:56):
That's what you were upset about,correct, I was upset that we
witnesses were being harassed. You wereupset about public outrage concerning this case.
Correct, objection sustain? That wasanswered next question. And two months later,
two months later, in June oftwenty twenty three, for the first

(01:19:17):
time, you testified at another proceeding, and lo and behold, you attributed
the words I hit it to mypart right injection. So asked that without
the objectionable phrase. Two months later, at another proceeding in June of twenty
twenty three, you attributed the statementI hit him to my client for the

(01:19:43):
first time. Under oath correct,under oath cracked, you indicated when you
turned your phone in the police wereperfectly okay with you deleting communications with your
children correct, Cracked, including Ali. There's a material witness in this trial,

(01:20:08):
so part of that is objectionable andI'll sustain that. So you're aware
that your daughter Ali was a witnessin this case at the time, I
was not aware of that. No, No, But you did know that
ultimately she was going to indicate thatshe drove call it home? Right,
you knew that at the time.Sure, that sustained. Did you know

(01:20:30):
at the time had driven callin homeor she said she drove it home.
I had no idea she drove himhome. But she deleted all those communications
with Ali, didn't you? Sustained? Did you delete all the communications that
you had off your phone with yourdaughter? So this has already been answer,
but go ahead, finished, let'sfinish this loop. Did you delete

(01:20:53):
them? I deleted the conversations withmy four daughters at that time, Allie
was not a witness. All Iasked you read my question, did you
or did you not delete the communication? That's been the answer. You said
that there was this statement that horrifiedyou. Your words horrified you. That

(01:21:24):
Carry Roberts may during her interview shewould be talking. I'm not sure if
she made it during that interview.I'd have to look back to see when
I said she told them everything inbold, because i know she had said
it to me multiple times. SoI'm not sure if it's when she said
it in the interview or just ingeneral when she said I told them everything,

(01:21:45):
I told them, et cetera.So when you said in that group
chat, she's telling them everything,that might not even be what you're talking
about. No, it was,And you said that that horrified you.
Correct. I didn't know Carrie Roberts, so yes, her statement horrified me.
Yes, that was horrifying. Andin that group chat, your response

(01:22:09):
to that horrifying statement was three words, I love it. Was there a
response prior to that? You tellme, man, I'm not the one
under oath you are. Well,if you want to show me it again,
I'd love to guess. So doyou have a handy, mister Jeffson?

(01:22:29):
I okay, it's been marked andinjured. It was the packet this
one, sure, yeah, yes, take a look at those two pages.

(01:23:18):
Could you tell me what pages?Please? Nine? And the second
page is that? Keep in mindwhat's the second number? Ms pakat number
the bottom right two one seven zero. Thank you you have that. Yes,
they do run. Yes, you'rein that conversation. When you said

(01:23:43):
she's telling them everything. That cameright of your husband saying this girl could
write a book. This woman couldwrite a book or something like that.
Correct, correct, she talks NonStop. Then you said, two texts down,
she's telling them everything. Correct.The text just before that was I

(01:24:04):
love it. That was in responseto my husband saying, this girl could
write a book. What's the nextthing that you wrote to that group?
For a second of that, sheis telling them everything, don't we're in

(01:24:25):
that text change. Did you saysomething along the lines of, oh my
goodness, I'm so horrified. Didyou those were on phone conversations. Nowhere
in those texts that you just sawyou say the words or write the words
I'm so horrified. No, becauseit was already spoken about. You were
asked on that morning, January twentyninth, twenty twenty two, as you

(01:24:54):
drove to the location and ultimately tothirty fourth fair View, what ultimately happened
And your testimony was, as youapproached, my client was searching frantically for
John o'keith. Correct. I don'tbelieve I said she was searching frantically for
John o'caithe. She was screaming franticallyin the back seat and texting in the

(01:25:18):
back seat. She's just sitting there, curled up in the back seat,
sucking her thumble. Was she searchingout the window? She was screaming between
Carrie and I. So I'm notreally sure how she saw John over here
when her head is up here screamingand then looking down and texting. Was
the whole point of that trip,Miss McKay to search for John? It

(01:25:41):
was because she knew where he was. The whole point of that trip was
to look for him. Correct.She directed us to go to thirty four,
few of you. The whole pointof the trip was to look for
John. Got thirty four fear ofyou where Karen said to go. And
your testimony is, if it hadn'tbeen for Karen out of that truck,

(01:26:01):
you wouldn't have stopped. Correct,because I wouldn't have seen him. I
didn't to know he was there.She did? Yes or no? Was
that your statement, if she hadn'tgotten out of the car, you wouldn't
have stopped. I don't believe itwas stated like that. I believe there
was a question and I answered,and the question was would you have stopped?

(01:26:23):
And your answer was what was whatwas the direct question? It was
five minutes ago? Did he askdid you see something? You like to
change words? I just want tobe certain, so mister Jackson, just
keep it to questions, not comment. You were asked just a second ago
by mister Lowly, if Karen Reidhadn't jumped out of the car, you

(01:26:48):
wouldn't have stopped? Correct? Correct? Okay, all right, lusy cable
finished jurors, I'm going to askyou to follow them up that you've done.
We'll take a recess and this onemight be a little long time,
a sure, and leaving a notebookson the ship, it's all right.

(01:27:23):
In an effort to save a littletime, why don't I see consoles I
buy to find out exactly what youwant from it? That's typically, yes,

(01:27:49):
you are muted. There's file forcompensation due to issues surrounding Google users'
privacy through their incognito browser. Soif you've used Google incognito anytime since twenty
sixteen. You can start your claimin less than ten questions at incognitoclaims dot
com slash lc loot. Did yousee your quarterback? All right, so

(01:28:38):
jurors, I waited until the lastwitness left the stand, and until you
all had your morning break, togive you one other instruction, and this
one. All the instructions are important, but this one's important, so I
weren't here to focus on it.Now. You heard from the last witness,
and you may hear from other witnesseswho described what Ms McCabe called harassment

(01:29:00):
and public demonstration. I believe shereferred to a rolling rally. I permitted
that testimony for a very limited purpose. That testimony was not offered, Nor
may you consider it as evidence thatmiss Reid has bad character or propensity to
commit crime. In fact, there'sno evidence before you that the defendant is

(01:29:21):
responsible for that conduct that was describedby Ms mckabe. The evidence is relevant
only in so far as it goesto the witnesses or to explain the witness's
state of mind. So ms McCabe'sstate of mind, and that is to
the extent it explains McCabe's conduct orstatements or actions at any particular time.

(01:29:45):
And ultimately the testimony may be usedby you only as it goes to the
witness's credibility. Okay, thank youvery much. So mister Leally, your
next witness, please, yes,John to call Miss Cary Roberts to the
stand. Okay, hmm right,she almost as the court and during the

(01:30:23):
case star true to all truth andthat's that's the truth. So thank you.
You take a steak, Good morning, good morning, gives you bought?
Please state your name and spell yourlast name, Kerry Roberts R O

(01:30:45):
B E R T S. Andwhere do you living at Cantoness? How
long have you lived in Canon?Ten years? And who if anyone do
you live in Canyon? My husband, my two children, and your two
children? How how old are day? And boy girl? My son is

(01:31:06):
twelve, my daughter's fourteen? Anddo you work now? I do?
What do you do? I'm anexecutive assistant. How long have you been
doing that? Seventeen years? Andyou're hurt because you work as well?
Yes? What is he? He'sa heavy equipment operator and how long has
he been doing that? Maybe twentytwo, twenty plus years? Now if

(01:31:30):
I could turn your attention to theevening of January twenty eighth, twenty twenty
two, into the morning of thetwenty ninth, do you call those days
and do you recall what days ofthe week they work? Stadio? Do
you recall what days of the weekdays? Friday, Friday the twenty eighth,
Saturday the twenty ninth. Now,on the evening of the twenty eighth,

(01:31:56):
do you recall what you were doing? I was bowling with my daughter and
her friends and one of the mothers. And do you recall where that was?
West Gate Lanes in Brockton. Andbut what time was it that you
got home from that? Probably abouteight thirty ish because there was a storm
coming, so we wanted to behome. I didn't want to be out

(01:32:18):
late. And when you got home, you and your daughter, is that
correct? Say that one more time, when your daughter came home around eight
thirty or solf, yes, withanyone else from your house was home when
you got there. I think myhusband was home. He was going out.
I think I passed him and hewas heading out to meet his friends.

(01:32:39):
My son was not home. Andwho were the friends that he was
going out? To me? Johno'keef, Michael Camerono, so star Wars.
I like to start with mister Cameron. How do you know he's been
childhood friends with my husband? Anddo you know where your husband was going

(01:32:59):
to be eating his camarado? Andmister o'keith Ms McCarthy's. It's a bar
in Canton, sort of in thecenter of town, is that right?
Yes? And mister o'keith, howdo you know I've known him since high
school? And where did you goto high school? Braintree High School?
And how is it that you cameto know mister O'Keefe. Uh, how

(01:33:25):
would you describe your relationship with misterHe was one of my closest friends in
addition to Don O'Keefe through growing upand going to Braintree Highe. Were you
familiar with any other members of theO'Keefe family. Yes, Kristen, his
sister was a senior when I wasa freshman. John was a year older

(01:33:45):
than me and Paul was two yearsyounger than me. So at some point
I was in school with all ofthem. And after high school, at
some points did you come to knowany of the members of the o'keef family
while you were living in camp.Yeah, my son and John's nephew went
to an in home daycare together.So I went to go pick up my

(01:34:09):
son at one point and Kristen wasthere and we count figured out that we
lived in the same neighborhood that wewere going to be moving into. And
then Kristin got sick. And duringthat time sort of when you first connected
with Christian about how old was yourson and the hearst my son was eighteen
months Patrick was he's almost a yearolder. And your son and Patrick for

(01:34:34):
bush, did they end up goingto the same school? We can.
Yes, they went to home daycare, they went to preschool pre k and
by the time they got to elementaryschool they got separated because they could troublemakers
and died. But did they goto the same school, yes, And
what any other activities did your sondo along with christ Well, Patrick I

(01:35:00):
wanted to try hockey, so theydid hockey together and then he didn't like
that, and they played baseball togethersince they were t ball like four or
five. Now, you mentioned thatKristin o'kee or Kristin was at that point.
At some point after you met her, she got sick is that right
correct? Eventually she passed away,is that right correct? After she passed

(01:35:26):
away to her husband also passed away. Correct. And at some point after
that, what if any bowl didJohn o'keeith have with reference to well,
when Kristen passed away, I wasin touch with John, just seeing if
they needed help with the kids,getting them to and from wherever, because
I was down the street Kristen passedaway, and then he said I might

(01:35:47):
move in. Steve's got to figureout the finances, but I might move
into your neighborhood. I said,oh, okay. And then when Steve
died, John did move in andhe took over, eating the kids.
And I'm fair to say that youwere with reference to your son being friends
with his nephew Patrick, you were, you would see him fairly off and

(01:36:12):
and bite him, I mean JohnKeith? Oh, yes, daily?
And what if any At some pointJohn and his niece and nephew moved from
down the street from your house.Yes, they moved across town. So
I live on the Milton side.He moved over sort of near the Stote
side. About how far a driveis that sort of from your house to

(01:36:34):
where did he move to? It? Was on metal cloth. Correct,
Yes, and depends because Canton's terriblefor traffic. Maybe seven minutes, maybe
eight, depending and if it's inthe evening, it's longer. And after
mister o'keithan and his niece and hisnephew moved sort of across town. Where

(01:36:55):
did his nephew Patrick? Where didhe go to school? He remained at
the same school that he was thatwith my son. So on Wednesdays when
John couldn't grab him in time becausehe'd be working in the city, Patrick
would come home with me. You'refamiliar with what mister Keith did for a
living. He was a Boston policeofficer, but at the time he was
working in an office registering sex offenders. So you would help out as far

(01:37:21):
as picking up his son. Whatif any assistants did you have with regards
to his niece Kayley? As well? Say that one more time, What
if any assistants did you have withregards to mister Keith and his schedule with
regards to his niece Caley, Well, I didn't do I didn't take care
of Kaylee as much. That wassort of There was other women, Jen

(01:37:42):
McKay one of them. She sortof really took hold of caring for Kaylee
because her daughter was friends with Kaylee, and I sort of got Patrick.
So, yes, Slie, youhave to keep your voice up. I'm
really sorry. I didn't mean tointerrupt you. Sorry, if you could
keep your voice up too, okay? Thought, and then through your through

(01:38:10):
the years that you knew mister o'keithwhen he lived in Canton and your time
being friends with him, what ifany conversations would you have with mister o'keith
in regard to sort of relationships ordating or anything like that. Well,
he dated a lot of people,so it depends or conversations, What if
any sort of role would you haveor what if any knowledge that you have

(01:38:35):
in reference to the people that hedated? My husband whenever he would go
on a date with somebody, hewould have my husband come meet them,
sort of say like what do youthink he? I mean, he had
a couple of girlfriends that were verynice. Now, at some point did
you become aware of a person bythe named Karen? Yes? And when

(01:38:58):
was it and how was it thatyou first came to know that? First
John called me and said, Karenand I are going to stop by because
we had people over, and Isaid, who is Karen? Because I
didn't know if he was going tobring someone from high school and surprise me
with a random I had never heardof her. And he said, you
know who Karen is, the girlI'm dating. I said nope, but

(01:39:23):
okay, And then they came overthat night and your repault? What about
that was? I think it wassometime in July, in July what are
we twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty,sometimes shortly after sort of the COVID pandemic.

(01:39:43):
Yes, how would you describe yourrelationship with any With Karen? She
was like another person that took careof the kids. She took care of
Kaylin and Patrick a lot, SoI would coordinate with her if Ryan and
Patrick were going to go to thegolfing range, or if Ryan was going

(01:40:05):
to go with them to the RedSox game, that kind of thing.
We weren't do lunch or or hangout like girlfriends. It's were there any
occasions where you had socialization or goout as couples or anything like that with
mister No, just when just theycame over our house one time, and

(01:40:26):
then we'd do baseball tournaments down thecape and we'd all get together, but
the four of us never went out. And just for clarity purposes, you
see miss reading the core road today, YEP, identify her as to where
she's seated or antic clothing? Saythat again, would you identify as to
where she's seated or an article ofclothing She is seated at that front table

(01:40:49):
and she has a black and whitesuit jacket or just as the record offlective
applications. Yes, Now, comingback to that evening of the twenty eighth,
your husband went out to meet misterCamerano in this room. Yes,

(01:41:10):
did you know about what time itwas that your husband Curd arrived home that
night, maybe around ten thirty?And after you arrived home, what if
anything specifically do you recall the twoor you doing or anything before going off
today. I remember sitting on thecouch and the front doors right there,
and it was open, and itstarted to snow. It had just started

(01:41:32):
to come down, probably about midnight, but it was coming down fast,
so you knew it was little snowflakesusually mean a big snowstorm. And I
said, well, it's starting,So we went to bed because we knew
we weren't going out anywhere, Andas far as turning your attention to the

(01:41:54):
next morning, at some point youwere woke. Do you recall what it
was it awoke you that morning ontwenty nine called me at five o'clock in
the morning, And is that sortof a normal occurrence. As far as
miss Read calling you and specifically callingyou that early, no, And when
you went to answer the phone atsome point did you look at sort of

(01:42:15):
like the screen to your phone.I don't know. I just answered in
a different way. As far asat some point did you realize or did
you know whether or not that callthat at some point you answered correctly yes.
And the call that you answered,do you know whether or not that
was the first call miss Read aplace that morning or not it was the
second call only from looking at myphone after because I said, oh,

(01:42:38):
she called me. She just calledand I didn't She called twice. And
the phone call that you answered,what time was that five on the dot?
And if you know the from lookingat your phone, the phone call
that you didn't wake up or didn'tanswer, you know how long before that
that phone call was? I thinkit was a minute or two before clock

(01:43:00):
on the dot. And you geta phone call, you answer it and
mis read. Is that right correct? And that phone number you had her
were programmed into your phone as acontact, is that correct? Yes?
And on prior occasions had you calledthat number or gotten a call from that
number on prior occasions? Yes?And when you got that call or made
that call, who was the otherperson on the end that you received?

(01:43:24):
Say that I maybe a pretty simplequestion as far as it goes, But
just with reference to any prior phonecalls that you made a god to receive
with that number that you programmed inas Karen Reid, when you spoke to
someone by calling or receiving a callfrom that contact, who was on the
other end of the call? KarenReid? Thanks? So you answered the

(01:43:46):
phone sometime right around five am.And can you ascribe to the jury sort
of what the content of that conversationwas. I answered the phone, and
she said John's dead. Carrie,Carrie, Carrie, and then she hung
up. And as far as herand in the conversation, did you say

(01:44:10):
anything or get a chance to sayanything before she hu? No? And
when she's speaking to you and sayingthose words to you were over the phone,
how loudly is, she saying veryloud, she woke my husband,
who is sleeping for the time thatthe phone rings when you pick it up,
your husband's sleeping. Correct, yes, and then afterwards he's correct.
Now what happened? Then? ThenI got out of bed and Kurt said,

(01:44:35):
what was that? I said,I don't know. I don't know
something's happening. And I think Istarted getting dressed at that point, because
I don't know if I started gettingdressed at that point or after she called
back again. I tried to callher, I think a couple times back
to be like, what is goingon. Finally she called me back again

(01:44:58):
and she said, I'm afraid Johnmight be dead. He might have gotten
hit by a plow. He didnot come home last night. I was
not supposed to stay in Campton lastnight, and he would never leave Kaylee
alone. I think something happened.And do you recall earlier in the day
of the twenty eight having any communicationwith either mister Keith or Miss Reid.

(01:45:23):
I did with John. He textedme you called generally what that was about?
My son got into a scuffle withsome boy at school and Patrick wasn't
in school at the time. Ithink he went to a doctor's appointment,
but Patrick got wind of it,so John was calling to see if my
son was okay. Now turning backto again that morning on the twenty ninth,
you called miss Read a couple oftimes. She didn't answer, is

(01:45:44):
that correct? Correct? And atsome point she called you back correct?
And about how long was it afterthat initial phone call that you have or
she hung up? How much timeit elapsed in that call the next time?
I don't know, maybe five minutes. And so when she calls back,
she makes those statements to you thatyou just satisfied about in honor making
those statements, What if anything wereyou respond I said? Then she said

(01:46:08):
she checked Kaylee's phone to see ifJohn had called. And I said,
okay, where are you now?And she said, I'm driving? Can
I come to your house? Willyou drive my car? I don't remember
anything from last night. We drankso much. I don't remember anything.
And I said, you need togo home and be with kayleie if she's

(01:46:30):
there by herself, I'll go lookfor him, or something of that nature.
Because I thought, I said,you're going to get a duy.
You were drinking all night last nightand you don't remember anything, you shouldn't
be driving, all right. Sonext question, please, when you were
talking to her on the phone,what if any observations that you make a
sort of how she was speaking orshe was very frantic and she was her

(01:46:56):
voice was elevated, she was shewas very frantic. And the loudness that
you were describing during the course ofthat first phone call, what if any
observations were with respect to that inregard to the second same throughout the rest
of the day was the same.Can you indicate to her that she needs

(01:47:16):
to go home? Is that right? Correct? And what if anything you
say irresponsible? She'd said, I'mgoing to come to your house. Will
you drive my car? And Isaid okay? And after that, what
did you do for me? Istarted getting dressed. I think that's when
I was started getting dressed, andmy husband said, where are you going?
I said, I don't know.Something happened. John didn't come home.

(01:47:40):
Karen's worried, so I'm going togo look go help her. And
he said, you are not goinganywhere. It's a blizzard. And I
said, yes, I am.And I went downstairs. I started the
car, cleared it off, andI sat there waiting and she didn't come.
So I called during the time thatyou're waiting in a car. Do
you know about how long period itwas that you were waiting in the car.

(01:48:03):
I don't. I would say atleast ten minutes of sitting in the
car. And to that point,as far as when you went outside to
the car, what if anything thatyou observe about the weather, and what
if anything did you do with yourcar as you were I cleaned the car
off, I turned the car andI got in it, and I thought
to myself, well, she thinkssomebody got hit by a plow or something.

(01:48:26):
I'll see if there's any accidents.So I called the Stoughton I mean
Stoton Canton non emergency line and Isaid, have there been any plow accidents?
My friend's boyfriend is didn't come homeand they said no, there were
no accidents. So then I calledGood Samaritan Hospital and Milton to see if
anybody had been brought in in acar accident. They said no, And

(01:48:49):
then finally Karen called back. Beforebefore we get to that, just in
reference to at any point in time, did you call mister Keith, Yes,
And when you called miss Rokey.Were you able to speak to Miss
Rokey? No? Do you knowhow many times you called Miss Rokey?
My husband called him, and Ithink I called him. And when was

(01:49:11):
that in relation to you going outto your car and clearing That was when
I was in the house. Karenactually said, can you try and call
him? And you did and youdidn't get anything? Correct, And you
know whether or not your husband gotan answer. He did not. So
you go out to the car you'rewaiting and you make those phone call,
initially to can Please? Is thatcorrect? Yes? And do you know

(01:49:32):
who you spoke to it can please? I believe it was Officer Good.
That's someone that you knew in anyway prior to the state of January twenty
ninth. We have mutual friends,but no, I'd never met him.
Now, you call the hospitals,and then at at some point after you

(01:49:54):
finished speaking to the hospitals, Independentthen calls you back. Yes, And
what, if anything, can youdescribe to the jury sort of what was
the content of that conversation? Athird she said, I said where are
you? I'm in the car andshe said I'm at Jen's house And I
said Jen who? She said,Jen McCabe. She's going to drive my

(01:50:16):
car, and I said, okay, stay there, I'll come to the
we'll follow and we'll drop your caroff. We'll just take my car and
go look for him. And Idrove to Gen's and I pulled in the
driveway behind them. I was stillon speakerphone. Jen is driving Karen's in

(01:50:36):
the passenger seat, and we drove. I said, do you remember look?
Did you look through the house?Could he be passed out somewhere in
the house. She said, Idon't know. I didn't look. So
I said, let's do that.Let's get in the cars. We're not
taking two cars. It's a blizzard. We're going to go back to meadows
and we're going to go look inthe house first. He could be passed
out behind the couch or on thefloor, who knows. So we went

(01:50:59):
to the house. Yeah, I'msorry, before you get into that,
just as far as frectionality and whereyou're going, at this initial stage,
you're sort of directing what's going tohappen and where you're going to go.
Correct correct? Now, you hadmentioned as the defendant said she was at
Jen's house. Western who and shesaid, Jennifer mccad correct, Yes,

(01:51:20):
I'll allow it. With regards tomiss mcad, did you know her or
how did you know her prior tothis morning? In January twenty nine?
I had met her once when Johntook her and I to Rebock because he's
got a fifty percent discount, sowe would go periodically and get the kids

(01:51:41):
shoes. So she, John andmyself went to Rebock got shoes, and
then we went to the hillside forlunch. That was it. I wasn't
friends with there? Is that someonethat you had programs in your phone as
a contact and you have her informationprior to January twenty nine? No,
And when you went to miss McCabe'shouse that morning, how was it that

(01:52:03):
you knew where Miss McCabe's house wasat that point. I've picked up Kayleie
there a time or two for Johnand brought her home if I was heading
that way, because Jen's house ison the way to John's. And so
you go to Miss McCabe's house,and can you describe for the jury sort
of what you observe or what yousee when you're first coming up too.

(01:52:24):
I pulled in the driveway behind Karen'scar and Karen and Jenn are in the
car talking. I'm still on bluetoothso I can hear them, and Karen
said that she remembered leaving him atWaterfall, and Jen said, no,
you. I saw you pull upto my sister's house. And then at
some point in the conversation she said, what about my tail light? What

(01:52:45):
about my tail light? And Ilooked and there was a piece missing,
but it was caked on with snow. You could tell there was a little
black hole, but there was snowlike caked on it. And it was
a blizzard at this point. Oh, just as far as over the course
of this early morning, when you'remaking that drive from your house to mister
Cape's house. Correct, yes,So during that time, can you describe

(01:53:09):
sort of what the lighting conditions were, what the roadway conditions were, what
you observed as you were driving overthere. It was not light out yet
and it was really bad driving andbad driving. Reference, was that right?
Yes? So you get to misterCave's house, and during the drive
from your house to mister Cape's house, you're speaking to both miss mcavid and

(01:53:31):
Miss Read. Yes, and withreference I think you've said a couple of
times as far as a bluetooth,as far as what you're hearing on the
other side of the conversation, isit just one person or are you able
to hear sort of everything that's goingon In the course, I could hear
everything. It was like a regularphone call in the car. From where

(01:53:56):
you were, your impression was itwas hooked up to the speaker of the
car. Correct, And when youget to Ms McCay's house or what you
were just testifying about. As faras the tailor, when is it that
you're making those observations in Jen's driveway? And so about how far away from
the defendant to horre you the firsttime that you see or your attention is

(01:54:18):
drawn to this tailor. I wasparked right behind them in the driveway.
And can you describe which part ofthe vehicle we're looking at? As far
as which which tail light that you'reobserving? This is dandaged the right passenger.
And so from there, as faras Ms mccab's driveway you make these

(01:54:39):
observations, where is it that yougo from there? Let me say it
again, So after you're making thoseobservations and you're overhearing that conversation or you're
having that conversation with Bluetooth. Wheredid the three of you go? We
went to Meadows to John's house.And how was it that each of you
sort of got from Ms mccave's houseto Jen drove Karen's car and I followed

(01:55:03):
behind in my car. And whenyou arrived there, where did you go?
Where did you park? Like?I pulled in? I think I
pulled in right behind. She pulledher car sort of in front of the
garage bays, and I pulled inthe driveway behind her. And when you

(01:55:25):
say she, do you know whowas driving? Jen McCabe, sorry,
driving in this reason in the frontpast? Correct? And you're driving your
car behind? Correct? What kindof car did did you have? A
Ford Explorer? Do you recall whatcolor? Was? Dark gray? And
as far as MS read, doyou call what kind of vehicle she had
at that point? Alexis SUV thatwas black? Now with respect to miss

(01:55:53):
O'Keefe, do you call what kindof vehicle John o'keithe, he has a
traverse and do you recall what colorthat? It's like a beige? Scream
you with the court's remission, ifI could ask to publish what's been marked
as they said a number two.Okay, mister Roberts, striking your attention

(01:56:23):
to you over here to be recognizewhat is up on the string that's John's
house and that seemed like a fairenact or a trailer with John's house looked
at looked like that around the climbof January twenty nine when you went over
that way, much snow are here, but yes, I said, it
was much much more snow, butyes, now non visible in this particulous

(01:56:47):
photograph with the driveway that you weretalking about facing mister Keith's house and metals
out and ros this picture whereabout whatthe driveway needs the left, the right
to the right, and of coursemission if I could asked to published with
the market ninety one okay, andagain Ms Robins, do you recognize us

(01:57:10):
up on the screen that is John'scar? And what is it that's behind
in Johnson behind a basketball hoop?That's sure, that's correct, not the
rear of the vehicle, but sortof getting the photograph behind on on the
other side of the path exactly.Oh, the garage doors and there are

(01:57:30):
two garage doors on the left.Right. Nilli went his house and went
over a number of times when therecorrect and as far as what if anything
were you know you went as faras mister Kes having regard towards security around
time security, he has a ringcamera that was in the driveway and a
ring camera that was at the sidedoor. And with regard to the garage

(01:57:58):
itself, as far as you inthere as well, yes, and so
what what is behind the left doorof the rush his big old blue convertible
and on the right side of garage, what if anything is is nothing?
Because I mean it's he's got allorganized stuff and kids sporting. I don't

(01:58:19):
know if he parked in there ornot. Now as far as how mister
o'keef kept his garage kept his home, was there a particular way which which
he kept it there? You know, knee freak, I'm sorry, what
was that? He was a neatfreak. And as you enter into this

(01:58:40):
garage, what if any access wouldyou get have through from the inside there's
a set of stairs and it bringsyou right into like the mudroom, which
leads into the kitchen. When youwould go over to miss on this kitchen,
any rules or preferences would mister withregard to what you did not wear

(01:59:00):
foot wear in the house, youtook your shoes off. And is that
something that applied to people who livedthere as well as people who are visiting.
Yes, and how would you describewith that relatively strict Yes, now
you're on with the courts remission.If I could, I'd like to publish

(01:59:21):
a portion of Exhibit six ring videookay filming, if I could have from
the driveway video number one five orask you this that was so the sarbas.
Do you recognize what's up on thestreet. Yes, that's Karen's car

(01:59:43):
and my car and John's is inthe background. Now in front of you
on the desk there should be alaser one. Oh, thank you very
much, Thank you so pressing onthat. But and went in sort about
the screen. If I could askjust directed Dury's attention to where do you
see this reads vehicle? Where yousee your vehicle, and where you've seen

(02:00:06):
vehicle? That is John's car,that is Karen's car, that is my
car? Is this fair? Andam in portrayal of where the cars learned?
What things look like when you firstarrived in mister Key's house coming from
Miss McCabe. Yes, it's goingto be cold, now with reference to

(02:00:35):
any individuals that you're observing, thisvideo can using the lazer corner, you
could rut the curious attention to whoyou observed, and that is John McCabe,
and that is Karen Read and that'sme. And at some point you
enter in through the garage, isthat right correct? As far as the

(02:00:55):
garage when you came back that morning, what if anything you notice the the
right garage door wouldn't close when youarrived. I don't recall if it was
open when we arrived, but whenwe were leaving it wouldn't close. And
do you recall have any ideas forhow that anthic work, like how you

(02:01:17):
would open, how you would close? Now there's a code on the side.
And at any point in time,whenever you noticed that the garage door
was open, when you were anypeople that you were able to close that
no? So was that the doorthat you entered into in order to get
into the garage to get into thebuck drop the correct? And when you

(02:01:42):
came into the house that morning,you went about what if anything did you
do with your shooting, What ifanything did you observed the cap and Jen
and I both had taken our shoesoff in the in the sort of steps
in the garage before we enter intothe modroom. We took our shoes off,

(02:02:05):
and Karen just walked in and it'syeah, h m hm hm.

(02:02:55):
Now it's Roberts. With reference tothe ring video security system that still Keith
had it at home? If youknow you know who had access to that,
I do not. You obviously youknow whether or not mister Keith had
access to that. He did,Yes, okay, do you know how
or what device do you use inorder to access I only know he had

(02:03:15):
it on his phone. How doyou know he had it because he would
check it all the time to seeif the kids were home or dropped off
or that's something you did in yourpresence. Yes. Now, with regard
to at some point when you getto the home, beyond the sort of
initial observations you made, a misterk priveway, with regard to the right

(02:03:38):
rip pastor the tail lighter miss Read'svehicle, what if any other observations did
you make or what if anything elsedid you do with reference to that area
of the year. Karen did pointit out at one point in the driveway.
She said, my tail light,look at my tail light, and
I looked at it and I said, you told me you don't remember anything
from last night. She said,do you think I hit him? Do

(02:04:00):
you think I hit him? AndI said, no, I don't think
you hit him. I think youprobably hit something. But let's just go
in the house and look for him. And so as far as your recollection
has concerned that sort of interaction thatyou had, are looking at the tail
like, when did that happen?I don't know if it was when?
Well, it obviously wasn't when wegot there. It was what must room,
when we were leaving to go outto look for him, when you

(02:04:21):
went I'm sorry, I wasn't sureif it was when we arrived or when
we were leaving to go back outand look for him. But now that
I've seen the video, it's obviouslywhen we came back out of the house,
okay. And who was present forthat? Who was present Jen McKay,
Karen Reid and myself. And asfar as where ms McKay parked that

(02:04:42):
vehicle at any point in times thatyou were at the house, did that
vehicle move it all? And bythat vehicle I named miss reci I don't
think so. Where it's part ofthat video was essentially where it stayed as
far as you know, I believe. So now with reference to those observations,
and when you were looking at therear passenger tail light of areas of

(02:05:02):
miss Read's vehicle, how close tothe vehicle were you when you were making
those observations? Right in front ofit? There was one piece like a
rectangle encapsuled like whatever was broken therewas. I remember there was one piece
of metal sort of sticking out,so if it was an encasement for a

(02:05:23):
light of some sort. I rememberlooking at it and the piece was sort
of sticking out, and I thoughtsomeone's going to catch the sleeve on that
or something. And now from there, when you arrived the house, you

(02:05:47):
go into the house to take outhis shoes. What happened? I started
looking, Jen started looking Karen,I don't they both her and Jen went
upstairs. I started looking down stairs. I started looking on the other side
of the couches to see if maybehe passed out somewhere. And then I
went upstairs and Karen was standing inJohn's room. The bed was made.

(02:06:10):
She was just standing there, andJen had gone in to talk to Kaylee.
And then I said, all right, let's let's go. He's not
in the house. He's not inthe house. As far as your knowledge
of miss o'keith, him not cominghome when any of the children were home,

(02:06:30):
was that something that was normal,him not coming home if the children
were home. Yeah, he wouldnot do that. And obviously you knew
Keiley was there. But what,if anything, did you know as to
where Patrick was? He was ata friend's house, and was that something
that you do independent of this morningor what had transpired us to that point?
Say that again, how did youfind out that Patrick was at a

(02:06:53):
friend's house? You know? Karensaid, I said, where's Patrick?
She said, he's his friends.So you were in the downstairs area the
home, was that correct? Yes? And looking through the rooms you didn't
find mister correct. Now, atany point in time did you go upstairs?
I did? And when you wentupstairs, where in the upstairs at

(02:07:14):
the top of the stairs is John'sbedroom. So I looked in there,
I looked in the bathroom, Ilooked in the closet, I looked in
Patrick's room. I looked in theother two bedrooms, and Kaylee was in
her room. So Jen was inthere. But I was looking through the
just looking through the house. Andas far as mister O'Keefe's bedroom in there,
what if anything you do observe asfar as the condition of the bedroom,

(02:07:36):
the bed's made. You mentioned youlooked in a variety of different rooms
on the second floor. You said, sort of two other rooms. What
if anything were those other rooms youwas for, if you know, I
think one of them was a computerroom. It was the room that faced
the front of the house, andthe back room had a bed in it

(02:07:56):
that Missus O'Keefe would stay and whenshe would stay over. Again, just
to be clear when you say missusO'Keefe, you need John's mother, John's
mother. Sorry, And as faras the computer room, if anyone had
access to that, if you knowhad access to the computer room, what
was the use. Oh, therewas a desk with a computer or laptop.

(02:08:18):
Did you know whose laptop that was, whether it was John's, where
it was defendants where there was kidsright, Well, I know, I
don't know if it was the defendantsat the time, but John's laptop used
to be in that room. You'reon with the courts permission, but ask
if I could publish just a couplemore photos on the screen permission Roberts,

(02:08:39):
Okay, I'm going to start withExhibit ninety two as directing your attention of
the stranger recognized was picked in thatprogram. That's Karen Read's lexus. And

(02:09:00):
specifically, if you could using thelatest one part of the direct durious attentions
where you reserve the image that onethat's where that that's where the metal piece
I was describing was as far aswhat's taken in this photograph up on this
freed is a consistent with what youobserved in this ROTI striveway and mister Cave's

(02:09:20):
rive up when you saw that wellcaked and snow but yes, laughing snow,
yes, yes and still if thatan executed Yeah, Miss Robs,
you recognize what's depicted in this photograph, Yes, as we have a closer
up image of the same area record. Yes, and this closer up image

(02:09:43):
is that also consistent with what youobserved in the Caves driveway in this rot
driveway that yes, Now you're onwith the court permission, I would ask
again if I could publish h portionof what's been marked as Exhibit forty one.
Okay, yeah, in miss Gilman, if I could ask you to

(02:10:11):
pass forward to about two hours nineminutes for exactly pleasure minute M yeah,
yeah, it's gonna be your fatherwith that. If I strike your attention

(02:10:39):
on the three and you recognize what'son the pause portion of the three from
this that's John's house, it's gonnakeep your father mm hm. And again

(02:11:00):
the Robb's directing your attention of thestreet. You recognize what's sort of in
front of camera, that's Karen's carand John's car. And where you observe
Karen's carr and John's car. Again, if you put this using lager pointed
director's attention, where you observe eachof those, and it's still career.

(02:11:22):
That's Karen's car, that's John's car. That was essentially the same positions that
you were talking about that the jurysat earlier in ring video from the Gilkey's
house. Yes, here are theyapproach? Yes? Do you want this

(02:11:50):
up in the screen or down?Up for now? Okay, that's rob.
I want to show you just twophotographs. Ask you this looking miss
okay, do you recognize us ordo you recognize what's depicted in this?
Do I recognize what what's depicted ineach of those books. Karen's carr and

(02:12:15):
may I approach ron Yes, Iwant to seek the introduction in that is
the next ecifics he is there anyobjection? No objection? All right,
thank you. You're on a whilethose are being marked. Maybe yes please,
okay, okay, you're on awith the course mission, I would

(02:12:52):
ask to go publish first Western marketsif every one on one? Okay?
And missus Roberts, what's up onthe screen now? One on one?
Uh? Even agaated? That's missReeds in the same position where missus Kaye

(02:13:13):
left the park from the Bronts.Yes, there's a security is still shot
on the same video that you justsaw in the priory. Yes, it's
stilling that I could have is oneof food now? And miss Roberts,

(02:13:35):
what's up on the screen? That'sthe second photograph that I showed you just
a moment ago. Yes, that'sessentially closer. Run resumed an image of
what's in the same skill images yousaw the pirates. Yes, and again
if you threw are using the wagerpoint or just right for dur his attention
to the damage that you're observed onthe right rear pastor tail light of Miss

(02:13:56):
Breeds vehicle that moment, and nowwe go look through the home, you
don't find Miss Rokese and what happens? Then I said, let's go,

(02:14:18):
let's go look for him. Ifyou he might be walking home, or
if you thought he got hit bya plow, let's just and Jen and
Karen wanted to go back to thirtyfour Fairview where they were at Jen's sis.
Jen said she saw her pull upto thirty four Fairview the night before,
so Karen really wanted to go backthere. I was the one that
said, no, let's drop acar off, go to meadows and look

(02:14:39):
through the house and then we'll startlooking if he's not in the house.
So that's what we did. Wegot in the car and we were going
to head back to Jen's sister's house. And so this conversation as far as
the defendant, as you're testified,really wanting to go to Fairview, when
when did that occur in relationship?When you got to miss ro Keys on

(02:15:00):
the way from Jen McCabe's house toJohn's house in the car, So this
is over the bluetooth as you're driving. Yes, Karen said, I left
him at Waterfall and Jen said,no, I saw you pull up in
front of my sisters. And soafter coming out of mister Okeie's house,
you read of the same way thatyou entered. Yes, about the garage
door get in New York car,Yes, And if you could describe majoria

(02:15:26):
sort of, where was everybody seatedin your car when you get it?
I was driving, Karen was inthe back seat, and Jen was in
the passenger seat. And as faras Ms. McKay's sister's house at the
time, did you know where thatwas or who her sister was or anything
like that. I didn't even knowshe had a sister. And you know

(02:15:52):
about how how long a drive orhow far a drive or what the route
was that you took going from Meadowsto her sister. I think we went
main roads because we were looking tosee I mean, I don't know what
we were looking for, but wewere looking for him. I don't know
if we thought he was walking homeor if he got hit by a plow.
So we went main roads. Wepulled out. I think we went

(02:16:13):
Bolivar Street, and then Jen wasgiving directions because I didn't know where we
were going. And to be clear, Bolivar Street you're talking about. That's
the O L I V A R. Yes. And so then Miss the
Cave is then giving you directions asyou're driving correct Correct. Now, as
you're driving again, as far asdid you what if anything that you see

(02:16:37):
as far as plows or how arethe roads treated at that time? What
if anything did you observe reverence thatit was bad driving? There were plows
out, but it was really baddriving. And the visibility as we were
driving from Miss Roqui's house to MissMcCabe's sister's house, would you describe the

(02:17:00):
visibility? It was very poor.It was in the middle of a blizzard.
Now, when you get to thestreet at some point you're you're directed
by mister K to Fairview roop correct, Correct, And when you get to
fair View Roads, you recall whetheror not you took a left or a
right or how did you come onto Fairview Road off of Chapman Street.
I took a right onto Fairview.You took a right from Chapman onto correct.

(02:17:26):
And as you're coming down Fairview Roads, what if anything did you note
or observe as far as the sortof elevation of the roadway you go downhill
you go down hill. Yes,this particular area of can Obviously you've lived
Can for several years or you're somewhatfamiliar with this area of Can. Yeah,

(02:17:48):
how is it that you were familiarwith there at camp prior to the
state if you've never been to thisfication. The commuter rail is right near
there that I would take to work. Are there any schools in that area
as well? Yes, the JohnF. Kennedy School and mentioned that some
played baseball. Correct. Yes,and my my son and John's nephew also

(02:18:09):
went to the home daycare across thestreet from the JFK. Now, with
the court permission, I would askto just publish a brief portion of what's
been marked as Exhibit twelve. Okay, and when what I'm gonna ask is

(02:18:33):
if you could push this video forwardto two minutes and thirty seconds you play
that's Robins. From what you've seenon the video as far as was taken

(02:19:05):
in this video, is that afair en actor por trailer consistent with what
you observed that morning? And ifyou're driving around going from mister o'keiths house
to Miss mackay assistant, Yes,and the firm in this vehicle taking at
this point in the video, abouttwo minutes and forty seconds in, you
recognize what you see that Bagels turningonto I believe it's a fair view and

(02:19:26):
mistim hmm ms, Roberts. Asyou're driving from mister o'keeithe's house to this

(02:20:28):
address on Fairview Road that you've neverbeen to before, what's going on inside
the car? Karen was frantic.She wouldn't put her seatbelt on, and
I was getting nervous because I weredriving in a blizzard. She kept leaning
in between the two seats. Ithink at some point she was texting in
the backseat and then she'd be leaning. She was just frantic the whole morning.

(02:20:50):
And as far as her screaming,do you recall anything specifically that she
was screaming or what if any sortof conversation was going on in the car
as you was driving. It wassome conversation about a woman I didn't know
that was Bella's mom, and shesaid Bella's mom never liked me. I
think Bella's Bella lived near Jen's sister. Maybe I don't know. Some conversation

(02:21:11):
about Bella's mom and Karen said shedidn't like me and spout your recault,
where you were in your travels andwhen that topic or conversation came up.
No, I don't recall now inreference to following that, what if anything
did you say in regards to anyother sort of women, any other what

(02:21:35):
following that conversation in regard to Belle'smom, We didn't know what if anything
did you say? You're introduced tothe conversation. Fairview Road runs along Spring
Road spring Street. I think itis spring Lane. So spring Lane and
Fairview are both off at Chapman Street. And there was a woman he dated
that lived on Spring Lane. Sowhen Jen was telling me where her sister's

(02:21:58):
house was, I said, Idon't know where fair View is. And
she said it's near spring Lane.And I said, oh, where the
dance instructor lived. John had oncedated a dance instructor. And then Karen
said, do you think he couldhave gone there? Do you think that's
where you could have been? No, I was, I was just using
it as a reference point. Shesaid, it's near spring Lane, and
I knew that the dance instructor livedon spring Lane. And just to be

(02:22:22):
clear, when you say the danceinstructor, this would be for his niece
Kayley, correct, and you indicatedthat she would them being mist in the
dance instructor dated at some point inYes, how long was that? Oh
it was when Kaylee was little.She was probably like five, so almost
ten years before this day that you'redriving away. Now, as you're driving

(02:22:46):
along in driving down there of you, what is it that you're doing?
What, if anything, do youobserve it? And then what, if
anything do you observe the sense?Well, we were looking for John walking
or wherever he may be. SoI'm driving and looking on both sides,
and I think Jen was looking onboth sides, and Karen was. She

(02:23:07):
would be in the back seat,then she'd be in between us, then
she'd be in the back seat,and then in between us. And as
you came down the kill on fairof you, what if anything, what
happened? Jen said, my sister'shouse is right up here, And all
of a sudden Karen said, therehe is there, he is Let me
the f out of this car.And she started kicking the door. And

(02:23:31):
how was she kicking with her feet? Well, how was she kicking the
door? How hard was she kicking? Pretty hard? I mean she wanted
to get out of the car,but it was locked, because once you
start driving, the back door's lock. So I looked over and I didn't
see anything. And I looked atJen and I said, she's crazy.
And I unlocked the door and Isat back and watched. And she ran

(02:23:52):
over to a mound of snow.And so as time you're driving down the
road, had you seen that thing? As you're driving down for looking at
the side of the road, haveyou seen anything on your side of the
vehicle? No? And when yousay she gets out of the vehicle,
is it your side or passenger side? Where mister cave is that the driver's
side? But she gets out ofthe driver's side of the vehicle on the

(02:24:13):
back pass correct? Correct? Andhow quickly does she go sort of from
where from your car to where shegets up? She ran over to the
mound. And at that point intime, even when she runs over,
could you see what she was runningover to? At some point I realized
it was it was the shape ofa body. And when was that that

(02:24:35):
she realized? When in this sortof sequence were you able to realize that?
That was? In seconds? Onceshe ran over to his body,
I said, oh my god.And she lifted up his shirt and started
to lay on him. And whenyou stopped to let her out, where
were you in relation to that moundor snow or what you learned from I
think my car was like in themiddle of the road. I just stopped.

(02:25:00):
And in relation to where the mountainof snow was, had you driven
past it at that point? Sowhere was it? Yes? So it
was located behind your vehicle in MissKilman, if you could, I would
asked just a plan on that fora lot of six minutes. Okay,

(02:25:37):
what's the vinted in the screen infront of this cam? Randall, who
you recognize what that is? That'smy car? It is that essentially where
you parked your car when Miss Reidstarted kicking the doors and got out of
random. Yes, there was espressplace for a moment. Now from this

(02:25:58):
video, these see where in relationto your vehicle the stroke keys what you
promised us with the pointer? Mm hm m m. This woman,
if you could man displayed about hh h god about screening gangs. That

(02:27:37):
is Jen McCabe. That's Karen Reid, that's me. Mm hm. Take

(02:28:01):
that Roberts. In relation to whatyou just saw in the video, as
far as at some point the rearsort of tailgate or hatchback on your SUV
that was in the opposition, isthat correct? Yes? And you recall
why that was because I was havingJen get the baby blankets to wrap around

(02:28:22):
him out of my car. Andis that something that you just sort of
have in the back of your carall times? Yeah, Now, at
any point in time in that sequence, did you call about or have any

(02:28:43):
sort of phone calls that you madethat went to voicemail at that time?
Did I? I don't know,and so nothing that you recall is that
correct? Correct? And did youobserve miss McKay nickain phone calls that just
sort of went to voicemail and sheleft her phone in your car? Teest

(02:29:03):
you sustained ready to take you backwhen your point. So as far as
the adiss when you pull up anddefendants banging on the door and gets out
and runs over to mis what's depictedin that video obviously without your vehicle being

(02:29:26):
in the middle of the roadway,is that fair and accurate portrayal of what
the road looked like and sort ofwhat you saw upon your arrival. Yes,
So, after the defendant gets outof the vehicle. What did you
do? Where did you go?When I realized it was him or someone,
I ran over and I dug hishead out, rubbed the snow,

(02:29:54):
and the call you recognize the personin the snow was mister Key. Once
I his head out, yes,And I recall how his body was positioned
as far as how was he onthe stomach, on the back, on
the side, he was on hisback. And so you brush the snow

(02:30:15):
away from his head? Is thatcorrect? Off his face? And when
you were brushing the snow off hisface, what if anything did you observe
about his face or the condition ofhim. And he had blood coming out
of his nose and his mouth,and his right eye was it looked like
a golf ball. His left eyewas fine. The right eye looked like

(02:30:39):
a golf ball. Now mentioned thatyou wiped some snow from around his head,
What if anything else did you observeon the rest of his body.
He was bleeding in the back ofthe head. So when I was wrapping
the I don't know why I waswrapping blankets around his head, but I
just I didn't know he had acut on the back of his head.

(02:31:05):
You recalled which side of his headthat cop was on. I don't it
just was blood on the blanket thatwas under him, under his head.
Now, as far as the restof his body did not have snow on
it as well, say it again, I'm sorry the rest of his body
from separate from his head area,What if any snow did you observe on
on the rest of his life?He was completely covered. And you know

(02:31:28):
about how much snow was was coveringthe rest of his body. I want
to say like four inches, maybethree, I don't really it was.
I don't really remember exactly how many, but he was covered. And so
the reference to mister Oki from whenyou arrived there three of you being you
the defendant in this, mackaid,what is it that you were doing when

(02:31:50):
you first or sort of come overto miss Well? Karen was laying on
top of him and I told herto get off him because I was going
to do CPR, And I said, Jen, you need to call nine
one one, and I started CPRon his chest compressions and then Karen was
giving him mouth to mouth. Andas far as CPR goes, is that

(02:32:13):
something that you had in training inprior to this? Yes? And can
you telling Jerry a little bit aboutthat. As far as what if any
training did you have as far asCPR was I get CPR certified every two
years through the American Red Cross atwork? Can you start doing chess compressions?
Is that right correct? And youdirect miss McKay to call nine one

(02:32:33):
one? Yes? And what wasthe defendant doing that? She was doing
mouth to mouth and she was franticagain running around and as she was running
around, what if anything else wasshe was doing or saying while she was
running? Did I hit him?Did I hit him? As he dead?
Is he dead? Is that somethingthat she said once or more than

(02:32:56):
once? More than once? Andsimilar to sort of the tonality to the
volume of the voice that you weredescribing before, was that consistent when you're
there sort of in front of thehouse. Yes. Now in relation to
where you were with mister O'Keefe,obviously you've never been in this house before,

(02:33:16):
is that right correct? What ifanything do you observe as far as
overhead lights or street lights or anythinglike that around that area where you found
there was a fire hydrant and therewas some weird like electrical box thing sticking
out of the ground. But youdon't recall any sort of like overhead lights

(02:33:37):
or anything like that. I don'trecall. Now this process of you sort
of doing compressions and miss Reda isdoing mouth and mouth and then running around.
Is the mouth and mouth that she'sdoing is that sort of consistent or
is it intermittent between? When isthe running around in relation to the mouth?

(02:34:01):
I don't remember which was first orI was just doing I was concentrating
on doing chess compressions. And sowhile you're doing the chess compressions, at
some point to first responders start toarrive. Correct, And about how long
was it from the time that yousort of get out of the vehicle,
go over realize to keep, etcetera, and to when the first responders

(02:34:22):
were I don't know. It wasn'tlong, maybe under ten minutes. During
that time or during any of theamount of time that you were there,
did you see anybody from any ofthe houses on the street come out of
the house, or any any neighborscome out or anything like that. No.

(02:34:46):
Once, If you recall, yourecall whether it was police or fire
or ambulance or who showed up first. I don't know. I think the
police showed up first of the EMT. They just so the EMTs came over
and said, we'll take it fromhere. I wasn't paying attention to what
else was going on, so you'resort of focused on the chess compressions.

(02:35:07):
And at some points some paramatic comesover and tells you they've gotten yes.
And so after that? Where afterthat? Where did I go? I
stayed in the area. I thinkI went back over to the car and
as paramedics are working going on,you're over by your vehicle, correct,

(02:35:30):
I think so? And so wherewas what were you doing? And where
was ms m cave and and wherewas it? Karen was running around the
body while the EMTs were trying towork on him. She was just frantic.
And so you're over by the carand this read is running around over
where mister keep yes, I don'tknow. She was somewhere around the car,

(02:35:58):
closer to you than to where misterkeep us. I don't know where
mister o'keef was. If you know, where was he in relation to the
roadway or or the paved sort ofpathway or I don't know, because you
couldn't tell which was the road andwhich was the graph You couldn't tell which

(02:36:20):
where the road began and ended,So I don't know. Now you described
the defense sort of running around mistero'keef frantically, What if anything was she
saying about one? Is he dead? Is he dead? Is he dead?
And that sort of phraseology or theway she put that was was that
consistent throughout? Is that how shestated it? Yes? And again in

(02:36:43):
that same sort of loud volume voiceat the time. Yes. Now,
at some point mister o'keef is takenfrom where he is by the paramedics.
Human anthemis correct. Yes, Andas he's being taken knock and around,
what if anything you observe in thatarea? His phone was under him and

(02:37:05):
it was grass. Now, asfar as the grass that you observed,
how was that in relation to sortof the rest of the area where mister
was Everything else had snow, Soeverything else is covered in snow. And
when he's lifted off the ground underneathhis body, is that where the grass

(02:37:26):
is? Yes? And his phonewas where in relation to his body?
As far as when he's lifted up, what part of his body had been
opened? Like his maybe his shoulder, maybe it was like his back.
So when they lifted him up.It was underwear like his whatever that the
right side of his back. Andwhen I'm asking basically sort of up towards

(02:37:50):
the shoulder blade or down to slowerback if you in the middle. And
when you saw the phone on thegrass, what if anything you do with
I picked it up. I putit in my pocket and at some point
one of the first responders asked ifI had it. I handed it over.

(02:38:11):
You recall who that first responder was, whether it was a police officer,
lind fighter, or a paramedic.Or now as mister o'keith is being
taken from we was located and foundhim to the ambulance, what happens then?

(02:38:33):
What goes on from that? Atsome point Officer Good told Karen to
calm down because she was frantic,and at some point the Jen and Karen
were in the back of a policecruiser to warm up. I was standing
outside watching the ambulance because I couldsee in through the ambulance that they were

(02:38:56):
moving things and working on them.And so what I kind of conversation did
you have with or and Organs Riusquetand reference what you received in the back
of the hand. I said,they're working on him. They're working on
him. And at one point Karengrabbed the front of my jacket and screamed
in my face and said, arethey working on him? Is he alive?

(02:39:16):
And I said, they're working onhim. They're working on him.
They wouldn't be working on him ifhe was dead. And then she had
us hold hands and prey and thenat some point she had blood on her
hands and she was She told usshe had her period, so I think
she was just in a state ofshock maybe, And what I kind of

(02:39:39):
thing did you you or organs Quesay to her when she said that,
We said, no, that's notyour blood, that's John's. And what
happened? Then the ambulance drove away. And if you know about how long

(02:40:03):
was it from the time that youwere told by a paramedic to step away
from Miss vill Key? They hadthis from that point to Winny, I
don't know. I don't think itwas long. I watched them work on
whatever they were doing in the backof the ambulance and they got in the
ambulance and drove away. And afterthe ambulance left, where did three of

(02:40:26):
you go? Or where did yougo? Where to Miss Red go?
Where miss Karen, I had herin my car. Jen was going up
to the door to her sister's houseand the police. I said to the
police, I had been on thephone. Now. I had called missus
O'Keefe. I had called John's mother. I had called John's father. At

(02:40:48):
some point, Karen was on thephone with John's sister in law, Aarin,
telling him John's dad. So Igrabbed the phone from her. I
said, he's not dead. He'sin the back of an ambulance. He's
been in an accident. And shesaid she was gonna that Paul was going
to go John's brother to the hospitalthat they were bringing John to. So
I spoke to mister. I calledmister O'Keefe. He didn't answer. Next

(02:41:11):
question, that'll stand the next question. You call mister O'Keefe and Missus O'Keefe
John correct. At some point youhave a conversation with them. Correct.
Correct, And you know why wasthat Miss mckaye was going into the house
on fair Do you know why towake Chris sister? I think and after

(02:41:39):
those conversations, so you grabbed thephone from defended. He speaks to you
ever o'keef correct, yes, Andfollowing those conversations with members of the o'keith
family. Where is it that youwere going? I asked missus O'Keefe if
she had four wheel drive and shesaid no, and mister O'Keeffe had a
van that didn't have four wheel drive. So I said, I'm going to
come get you and I'll take youto the hospital. All right, So

(02:42:01):
why don't we end this now?For the will take them lunch? He
said as well? Be j yebe closed, j all ride and jury.

(02:42:58):
Okay, goodbye. Hey there,Karen Reid trial watchers. This is
a long crime legal alert Google Incognitotract users browsing data without their knowledge.
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(02:43:22):
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(02:44:05):
All right, mister lelie, wheneveryou're ready. Well, so if
I could take you back to somemoments, I apologize for this, but
just from moment back to when youfirst mister where Miss Rokeep is on the

(02:44:31):
grass, And at any point intime when you observed him, what if
any observations did you make as faras how miss Keeth was was strapped at
that time? Was he dressed?Yes, he had jeans on. I
couldn't really tell because he was covenin snow, but I know that he
had I think he had two layerson, because when the defendant lifted his

(02:44:54):
shirt, you would call if anyone of those layers was like a winter
jacket or any kind of heavy coator anything like that. I'm sorry,
No, you don't recall or no, no, it was not a coat.
Now take you back to when youwere in front of the house and

(02:45:22):
mister Keith was in the back ofthe ambulance. And at some point in
time that ambulance leaves exact right,And do you know where the ambulance was
going, Good Samaritan Hospital. Andfollowing that, you mentioned that mster Cave
went inside the house correct, Yes, And do you recall what it was
that caused her to go inside thehouse? No, I'll love that,

(02:45:46):
not what anyone said. I thinkshe was going to wake her sister.
And after that, was there anybodyelse that's beyond sort of first responders or
police sort of thing, that anyother sort of CI million people show up.
How did you recall Matt showed upat some point Matt Jen's husband,
Matt, And that was before youleft? Is that correct? Yes?

(02:46:11):
And just to be clear, youwould We'll get to this morn in a
moment. But you had left fromthe house once, come back and then
left again. Yes. And whenher husband, Matt McCabe showed up,
which of those times was that you? I think it was? He was
there when I left the first time. And did you have any conversation with

(02:46:33):
him? I just said, hesaid do you want I said, I'm
going to get the o'keefes. Hesaid do you want me to come with
you? And I said no,no, no, So he went in
the house. And when you leftthrough, if anyone initially when you left
through, if anyone left with me? I left with Karen Read. And
as you're leaving your car, you'redriving, Is that correct? Yes?

(02:46:58):
Where's miss reading at that point?Say it again? Where was miss Reid
in your car at that point inthe passenger seat? And as you were
leaving, what if anything was doingor talking about or what was going on
when you left that first as wewere leaving, she was saying to me,
if anything happens to John, I'mgoing to kill myself. You need

(02:47:18):
to take care of these kids.And how did you respond? He's not
going to die. No one's doinganything of that nature or something of that
nature. I said, And asfar as you're driving away, Chapman and
your faces towards the depressed, isthat right? Yes? And so when
you left, are you following inthat sort of same direction towards to depress?

(02:47:41):
I took a write on to CedarCrest and then where did you go
from me? And then I gotto Dedham Street and I went to take
a rite and then Officer Good,Officer goold let me go to pick up
the o'keefes to take them. Ihad to give him my phone number so
that he could get in touch withme if he needed to. So he
did call and he said, doyou have mis read with you? And

(02:48:03):
I said yes, and he said, please bring her back. Her parents
have called in a suicide. Theythey said, she's saying she's suicidal,
so they wanted to be sectioned.And so coming back to that in a
moment, But before you had leftthe scene, you hadn't talked twenty police
officers or anything at that time,correctly, no other than my name and

(02:48:26):
phone number. But no, yougave them me your information and then said
I have to open up you.Yes, so you get that call from
Officer Goods and then you come backto the house. Is that right?
Yes? And during any of thattime you were called the defendants. I
know you had mentioned she spoke toAaron. Was there anybody else that the

(02:48:46):
defendants spoke to or talked to whilewhile you were with her in the car,
she spoke to her mother. Andthen I ended up taking the phone
and speaking to her mother, andI gave her my phone number and I
said, I'm going to go tothe hospital. She said, please make
sure she does not have her purse. She has medication in her purse.
I don't want her to take Andthen when you arrived back at the scene,

(02:49:11):
what happened? She just got outof the car and walked to the
ambulance And who if anyone did shewalked in by she you mean the defendant?
I'm sorry, yes, And ifanyone that the defendant walk from your
card in the Abulance. She justwalked. I think she just walked by
herself. I had her phone becauseI had been talking to her mother.
So then one of the first responderscame over and said, do you have

(02:49:33):
her phone? And I said yes. Her mother said, make sure she
does not have her purse. Andthen following that conversation with one of the
first responders, where did you gofrom? I went to go pick up
the o'keefes. And as far asyour drive from Canton, you went to
where do the lived Braintree? Soyou're drive from Canton to Braintree and then

(02:49:54):
subsequently from Braintree to rock Them,what if anything to you observe about sort
of driving conditions At that I wasactually on the phone with Katie Camerano and
I spun out, did a completespun a couple times on ninety three right
near the Braintree exit, so thatwhen I got to the o'keefes, that
we went back roads to Brockton becauseI didn't want to go on the highway,

(02:50:18):
And as far as the O'Keeffe,as far as in your car from
Braintreet to Broadly, and that wasboth John's mother and father correct And at
some point you get to the goodSmaritan Hospital in Brockton, correct, Correct?
And you know what time it wasthat you got there. I don't
know when you when you were onWhere is it that you and the O'Keefe

(02:50:39):
sort of go within the hospital?Paul had John's brother, Paul had already
arrived and then we all walked in. We were in the waiting area.
John's cousin actually works on the switchboard. We had been talking to her on
the way in because with COVID restrictionswe didn't know if we were going to
be able to get in or soshe had come out from the switchboard her

(02:51:01):
office because she knew there had beenan accident, so she came out to
greet her family. And then Iasked her to take me to the bathroom
to clean up and to the chapel. Why was to go Sadian? Why
was it that you had because Ihad blood on my hands? Now,

(02:51:30):
Miss Robert, you mentioned that duringharder drives from Canada Braintree, you've spoke
in his camerano. Correct. Yes, And during either that drive or the
subsequent drive from Braintree to Brockton,anyone else did you? Speaker and Karen
called me repeatedly from the ambulance,asking if I was going to come to
the hospital. Then she called whenthe o'keefes were in the car and said

(02:51:54):
she dropped him off at a partyand Missus O'Keeffe said, you just left
him, and mister Oke said,leave her alone. She's been through enough.
She called a few times while wewere on the ride, and then
she called a lot when we wereat the hospital, asking if I knew
anything, if he was dead?Is he dead? She would hang up
and then call back, hang up, and then call back and if you

(02:52:16):
know about how many times were Iat least ten, and that same sort
of phraseology that she was using onscene. As far as it was dead,
she repeated that in the phone houseof the hospital. Yes. Now,
once you arrived at the hospital andyou're able to clean up a little
bit, where did you go fromthere? What happened? I went to

(02:52:39):
the chapel and I said a prayer, and then I went in and talked
to John's cousin, and she saidthat doctor Rice was going to ask to
meet with the family and that theywould be told how John was doing,
and that they would bring John's familyback to see John. So when I
came out, they were being calledin by doctor Rice, and I sat

(02:53:01):
in the waiting area. And aftersome period of time sitting in the waiting
area, what happened? Missus O'Keefecame out and told me John was gone,
And then she asked if I wantedto see him. So I did
because I figured it would be betterthan when I last saw him. Maybe

(02:53:24):
he was cleaned up or but itwas not. It was worse. Sorry,
As far as happened to a roomwhere where John was right? And
what did you see? He wasin a neck brace and both eyes were
huge, whereas when I found himit was only one, but they were
like black, almost like filled withI don't know blood or fluid. They

(02:53:48):
were huge. Beyond what you observedin his eyes, What if anything else
did you see on John's body?As you were he had scratches on his
arm, which it was his rightarm, all where on his arm like

(02:54:09):
here I'm best where the witness forearm? Following that, as far as going
into to see John, what whathappened? We came back out to the
waiting area. Missus o'keef wanted toget his necklace off, but I couldn't

(02:54:33):
get it, so her and Paulwent back in to get the necklace off.
And Karen had called me at somepoint from the hospital and said,
my father is going to be coming. Can you just keep a lookout for
him? So I said so.When he mister Reid, her father walked
in, mister O'Keefe recognized him andhe said, that's Karen's father. So
I went over and I said,mister Reid, mister Keith would like to

(02:54:54):
speak to you. And then Ijust stood there. I didn't know what
to do. And at some pointdid you did you leave from the hospital?
I did. I took mister okeif in my car and Paul took
missus O'Keeffe in his and where didwhere did the two vehicles? Where did
you? I dropped mister o keifoff at John's house and then I went

(02:55:15):
home. Without getting too much detail. As far as the road conditions that
you described earlier, how were they? It was absolutely horrible. I told
mister O'Keefe, if you see afront door in your vision, we are
about to hit a house because Ican't see where we're going. And my
windshow wiper broke. Now, uh, you dropped mister keith Off at John's

(02:55:39):
house on Meadows? Is that right? Yes? And read the vehicle?
Was that still there at that point? I think so. I don't recall,
but I think so. And thenyou went home? Is that correct?
Yes? Later on that day orthat afternoon with anyone in your house
to speak you in regard to whatthere were two officers, but I don't

(02:56:03):
remember their names. And do yourecall which department they were from? The
state Police? As far as theofficers it came your house and spoke to
you, you don't recall their names? Is that correct? I don't Paul,
if either one of them was awas a trooper Proctor? It was

(02:56:24):
not? And where where in yourhouse did you speaks in the dining room?
And did they speak to anybody elseat your house at that time?
My husband? And as far aswhen they spoke to you, and they
spoke to your husbands, where wereyou in starting with yourself? Do you
know where your husband was when theywere when the troopers were speaking to you.

(02:56:46):
I don't know where he was,but he wasn't in the room with
me. And same as far aswhen the troopers were speaking with your husband,
where where were you. I wasnot in the room following that.
So you have ocasian to speak toany other troopers or members of the State

(02:57:07):
Leafe at any point in time afterI've only spoken to Michael Proctor one time.
It was from Jen's house. Andwhen was that, I don't know,
maybe a couple of days later,because I had I was Jen and
I were regoing over whateverything had happened. Missus O'Keefe had advised us to make
a timeline because she said this couldbe a while. You guys aren't going

(02:57:28):
to remember something years from now,so sit down, write down what you
remember. And I at that pointsaid, well, when she first called,
she said he was dead. AndJen said, I don't think you've
told them that. So Michael Proctorcalled or she was on the phone with
them, or I don't even know, and I said, could I speak
to him? So I told himso that somebody had it documented. So

(02:57:50):
as far as Proctor was concerned thatphone conversation, is that the only contact
that you had with your yes andif you recall, was it February first
or so that you network some troopersat mister Cave's house. State trooper who

(02:58:11):
at some point, did you meetwith troopers at mister Cape's house. Yes,
And if you know, was thaton or around a couple of days
later, like February first or so? I don't Yeah, maybe, I
don't know. I can't be sure. Were either of those troopers that you
met at mister Cape's house or eitherof those troopers troop of property? No?
And do you recall where within mismccave's house you spoke to them in

(02:58:37):
the living room and beyond yourself andthe troopers that you spoke to, was
there anybody else in the room withyou when you broke at some point,
either then or subsequent to then.Was there any request made by any trooper
from the state Police in regard toyourself to my cell phone? Yes,
And you recall if it was thatdate or a later date. It was

(02:59:01):
not that day. I think itwas the next day it was. It
was within the next two days theywanted to clone my phone. And did
they advise you of anything or giveyou any form that you had to fill
out and execute prior to doing that. Yes, I had to fill it
a form. And as far asyour phone was concerned, were there any

(02:59:22):
restrictions or anything that you gave tothem. As far as what they could
look at or what they could cloneor or what they could do with your
phone. No, And as faras how or of that process works,
as far as the cell phone tractionor anything you know anything about that?
No? And you called how longit was that you were without your phone

(02:59:43):
at the time you handed it overto them and whenever you got back,
Well, they took both of ourphones at the same time, and we
didn't get them back for like sevenor eight hours. And just to be
clear, when you say both ofour phones, you Gen's phone and my
phone. Now, at some pointor at any point, did you give

(03:00:07):
any kind of interview or have anyconversation with any officer from the Cannon Police
in regard to what happened that day? No? And are you familiar with
a can officer named Michael Lent?Yes? How do you know? My
daughter and his daughter are friends?So beyond your daughter's being friends, is

(03:00:30):
that someone that you know or thatyou socialize with or anything like that.
Not. I mean they've come overto my house, his wife and him
one time, but we don't hangout with them socially. His wife and
I are friends now, at somepoint around this date, around January twenty
nine. Let me ask you,turning to the next stage January thirty,

(03:00:54):
if you call what you did thatday? We went over to the o'keefes
house, my daughter Jen and Jen'sand myself and following that to your call
where you were. My daughter wantedto get dropped off to her friend's house
at Mike Links. And so afterleaving the O'Keefe house, is as still
the same as far as yourself,your daughter and Ms McCabe and her daughter,

(03:01:18):
her daughter stayed at the o'keefes.And as far as Miss mukay was
concerned, was after dropping your daughteroff, did you go anywhere with Ms
McCay after that? I just stoppedat Mike Lank's house, I think,
and then we went home. Andso when you got to your daughter's friend's

(03:01:39):
house, if anyone can speak,Mike's wife came out to the car to
see how I was and how theo'keefes were, and so she talked to
us for a lot, just askinghow everyone was. And if you know,
man, do you know about howlong that conversation wasn't I mean,
I'm a talker, so it's probablya while. I'd say at least forty

(03:02:03):
five minutes. Was that a conversationlike through the window or did she get
in the car or you know,I think she got in the car.
She was in the backseat because itwas freezing. From that conversation or anything
beyond sort of how people were doingor anything that you discussed, anything about
sort of what you had seen orwhat you had heard before on twenty nine,

(03:02:26):
I don't recall. It was justa regular conversation, well not regular
obviously, but she was more concernedhow the okies are doing, how the
kids were doing. And then afteryou left from the Blank's house, where
did you go? Where did youwhen this uka go? I don't know.
I'm assuming home. Yes, aremany we approached the okay M,

(03:03:13):
sorry one moment. I have noord of questions? This wrong? Okay?
Who is little good questions? Okay, all right, thank you.

(03:03:33):
Your next witness was to Eli.Yes, call miss Laura Sullivan to this
tame M and miss to Ali wouldlike you to tell me when you want

(03:04:01):
me to give that instruction. Ithink it's so just wave it from it,
flag it for me, kay hM. Step up a stage to

(03:04:41):
get the court and during the casedown here should be the truth, the
whole trip, nothing but the truthsold. All right, mister Allie,
whenever you're ready, I'll good afternoon. Did you please state your name and
spell your last hand? Laura Sullivans U L L I V A N.

(03:05:07):
And where do you live? Pembroke, Massachusetts? And how long have
you lived in? Almost six years? And if anyone do you live in
I have I live with my boyfriendand our three children, two step children
that are with us half the time, and then my son Ben and your

(03:05:31):
son how old was ten? Sorry? And your step children how old are
fifteen and thirteen? Now do youwork? Then? I do? What
do you do? I work inhuman resources? How long have you been
doing that? Just over six years? And if I could turn your attention

(03:05:52):
to New Year's Eve of twenty twentyone into New Year's Day, do you
recall time frame? I do,and that's recall where you work. I
was in Aruba. And if youexplain to the jury sort of how how
often was that a regular trip thatyou did around that time of year.

(03:06:13):
Yeah, we've been doing a triplike around that time for I'd say five
or six years this will be ourour sixth year, I believe, and
over the course of those five orsix years that you've done that, when

(03:06:35):
you say sort of weed, howdid that start and how has that expanded?
It FLF. So we've been goingwe I mean Josh and I have
been going to Aruba for years.In twenty twenty one, post COVID,
we decided to bring our children.We had never gone with them before,

(03:06:56):
and since it was post COVID,a lot of people are kind of start
crazy, and a group of ourfriends jumped on board, and so we
went from just the five of usgoing to approximately sixty people. And as
far as the yourself and or theother people, how you know, is

(03:07:18):
this all at one sort of facilityor how are the bookings? So we
all stayed the Renaissance, which isin downtown, and we buy time shares,
So it was a timeshare resort wherewe would purchase weeks that people owned
and so if they weren't going forthat year, we would buy a week.

(03:07:41):
So we were able to get Ithink it was something you know,
close to twenty rooms for all ofus to go for the same week.
And as far as the planning inregard to that year in particular, when
when did that planning process? Itstarts approximately a year in advance because the
rooms go on sale almost immediately becausepeople want to get rid of them.

(03:08:05):
So I would say it was probablyaround January of twenty twenty one that we
booked our room for that year.And once you would booked your room.
As far as the family and primesgroup that you were talking about, how
was that sort of put out tothem? Like through what made it?
We would well, I would poston Facebook more rooms are available for a

(03:08:26):
Ruba if anybody was interested in going, So the timeshare owners would reach out
to me directly, is there anybodyelse who would want to go? And
we would look for any interested eitherfriends or what have you to join our
trip. So, at some pointin time over the summer of twenty twenty
one, in July or August orso, was there someone who tried to

(03:08:50):
Dors that reached out in regard topossibly coming on with trip. Yeah,
I received a text message from Johno'keefeested in learning more information about our trip
and if you could ascribe to thejury sort of how did you know Donald?

(03:09:18):
I met John in May of twentythirteen, I met him at a
bar in South Boston with he waswith Pat Rogers at the time. Post
meeting John, I started dating Pat. And my son's father is Pat Rogers,

(03:09:41):
And so as far as as Johno'keith and your son's father Pat Robbers,
did you know what did you cometo know sort of what they did
for a living? Yeah? Theywere both Boston police officers, And did
you know sort of what the relationshipwas beyond coworkers? Mitro Keith and yet

(03:10:03):
oh they were best friends. Soat some point following that meeting in twenty
thirty, you begin to day thatRogers is that right? Correct? And
what happened? So in July twentythirteen I became pregnant and in November of

(03:10:30):
twenty thirteen, Pack committed suicide.And okay, yeah, following that,
how would you describe sort of relationshipwith mister keeper? How to edit the

(03:10:50):
ball good? So in November oftwenty thirteen, I was on a work
trip and I had not had thebest conversation with Pat. It was kind
of it just didn't feel right,And I called John and said, you

(03:11:16):
need to go find him. Ican't get a hold of him. He
won't answer rephone, and so Johnleft his nephew's birthday party and called a
bunch of people on the way andultimately Pat was found in the basement of
his house. And John was thereimmediately following, but he was the one

(03:11:41):
that found people to go find Pat. Immediately following that, John never really
left my side, you know,as a support system. And at some
point following that you had this,yeah, and or after that, at

(03:12:03):
some point did you have a conversationwith mister Keith in regard to it?
Was? It was his birthday Decemberof twenty thirteen and we went to the
Playwright which is where we had wehad all met, and I gave him
a card and I asked him tobe Ben's godfather and he said yeah.

(03:12:24):
And in relation to your son,was mister o'keith? Was John and involved
in your son's life? Yes,very much so? And house he was
every birthday, Christmas? He was. He was always in contact. He
was the first person in my deliveryroom after I gave birth. He was.

(03:12:46):
He was a constant. He wasa connection to Pat and always making
sure that, you know, Benwas taken care of in the sense of
being there to tell stories or orwhat have you from his relationship with Pat

(03:13:07):
and through a sort of his relationshipwith you and your son, keep also
become familiar with your family as well. Yeah, yep. And in regard
to your family, whether it's somekind of term or how would they report
to Miss the godfather he was?He was called the godfather to almost everybody.

(03:13:35):
Now, ma'am, if I canturn your attention back to that summer
of twenty twenty one, you receiveda text from mister Keith. Is that
right? And so also you dohave to say yes or no sorry?
Yes, after you received that text, did you reach out to Miss Rokey?
Yes, I gave him a callbecause I was excited. I was
immediately excited. I gave him acall explain to him that we had a

(03:14:01):
group of rooms we were going with. I don't even know the number at
that time that had, you know, signed up to go, but it
was a lot of kids. Itwas all of our friends and that they
would have a great time. Andfrom that, did he give you any
sense or say anything about who fromfrom? Was it just a self or
like who was coming along? Hehad mentioned that it would be the kids,

(03:14:24):
and he said Karen would be joininghim as well. And at that
point you well, at some pointsome went that you knew him to be
referring Karen. Correct, yes,at that point, had you met Karen?
Did you know who that was?I had not. I knew that
they were dating, but I didn't. I had never met Karen though.

(03:14:46):
And in addition to himself, itwould be mister Keith, miss read defendant
and his niece Metan Patrick Taylor.Correct. Yes, And if you know
in relation to yours son as faras his miss Keiths that happened, where

(03:15:07):
are they aging? They're like threethree years apart. Three yeah, three
years apart. Now when you havethat phone conversation with miss ro Keith,
what if any interest does the showas far as going after, you know,

(03:15:30):
asking a couple of questions. HeI could hear Karen in the background,
and he put Karen on the phoneand that was the first time I
had spoken to her. He basicallysaid, he just talked to her.
So you can answer her questions.You recall what kind of questions they were
or what it was about. Shewas interested in the the room set up,

(03:15:52):
how many people could sleep in aroom, and how the room is
set up. You have a kingsized bedroom, and then there's a kitchen
area, and then there's a livingroom that has a pull out couch,
and I explained that you could it'sa four person occupancy room, and you
could get a roll away bed aswell. And following that conversation, when

(03:16:18):
was the next time, if atall, that you had any conversations with
Miss end or Miss Reid in regardto the room. So during that conversation,
Karen mentioned that she needed her ownbathroom and she needed her own space,
and that she wanted two rooms.And so I put them in contact

(03:16:39):
with a woman that I knew hadtwo rooms for them to, you know,
figure that piece out. I don'thandle any of that. I put
people in contact with whoever owns therooms. I put them in contact with
with the woman who had the tworooms, and I know that they had

(03:17:00):
paid her relatively quickly. I mentionedto John that the rooms. I couldn't
promise that the rooms would be nextto each other, and they weren't.
They were on opposite sides of thehotel. But they've got two rooms.
And when you say opposite side ofthe hotel, where you know sort of

(03:17:22):
where those rooms were in relations toeach other. And stay. So the
pool and lobby is in the center, and then the hotel comes like this,
and there are pool walkout rooms onthe first floor of each and Karen
and John were on this side andthe kids were on this side, and

(03:17:43):
they both had walk out rooms andas far as sort of front door to
front door, and you know abouthow far away they were from each other.
I would say, mean steps wise, maybe two hundred, but I
mean the hotel is it's small enough, but it was separated by a lobby,

(03:18:07):
the front entrance, the outside entrance. Now, with regard to your
run, when when was it thatyou arrived in Roo. So the timeshare
run the timeshare rooms run Friday toFriday. So we were booked for the
thirty first through the seventh. Josh'sbirthday is December thirtieth, so we went

(03:18:35):
down as a family a day early, and we had friends who were already
down there since Christmas. John's timeshareroom woman reached out and said, hey,
we're leaving early if you want toarrive early, so he him,
Karen and the kids actually came downon the thirtieth as well. They were
on the flight following us, andthen the rest of the sixtyish people.

(03:19:03):
However, many were there showed upon the thirty first, and so from
that first day that you arrived there, as far as when you got there
on the thirtieth, when was thefirst time that you saw John or when
was the first time that you sawanyone? From that it was we were
at the pool, so it wasnot long after they had landed. He

(03:19:26):
texted me and said we're here,and Ben and I jumped out of the
pool and went to the lobby tosee him. And then on the way
back from the lobby, I sawsomebody banging on the window on the left
hand side of the rooms, andI didn't know who it was, and
then I saw Kaylee and I waslike, oh, well, that must

(03:19:46):
be Karen. And again, wasthis the first time that you had seen
Karen face's face or met miss Read? Yes? And just for clarity purposes
as far as miss Reads concerned,so you're in the courtroom today, yes,
did you just identify as to whereshe's seated or an audible clothing issues,
she's right there. That's a recordof idy. Okay, Now,

(03:20:11):
after you see this person bang onthe window and you recognize Caylee, what
happened. She came out, shegave me a big hug, said,
it's nice to meet you. I'veheard so much about you. I recognized
you from pictures and following along fromthere, what happened then? As far
as as far as the day wasso, as they mentioned it was Josh's

(03:20:33):
birthday, we had already made plansto go out for dinner. Our friends
who had been there since Christmas,have a seventeen year old daughter who watched
our children, so we could goout for dinner. I mentioned it to
John. I said, you know, we'll just add you to the reservation.
You can join us for dinner.The kids can stay with Chloe,

(03:20:56):
and they said absolutely, So weall went out for dinner that evening to
Scream and Eagles. Where's that inrelation to the hotel program, It's probably
about a fifteen ish minute cab ride. And when you arrived there, and
what if anything you recall about sortof the dinner or how it went.

(03:21:18):
So we were sitting outside on thepatio. It was Karen, myself,
our friend Laura. Across from Laurawas her husband Dave. Josh was in
front of me, and John wasin front of Karen and what if anything

(03:21:39):
specifically recall about dinner or what happenedso we the waiter came over, he
ordered, he started taking drink orders. Karen placed her order, I placed
mine, Laura placed hers, Daveplaced his, and then Josh ordered a
dirty martini with blue cheese stuffed olives. I'll allow it. I don't know

(03:22:05):
where it's going, and you canmove to strike if it unless you wanted
to see me this year, okay, h selthn slone. Turning back to
at the restaurants, UH drinks thator order. People have what they have

(03:22:30):
and at the end of the evening, as far as the bill comes in,
something correct. And what if anythingyou recall about Karen had paid the
bill prior to us receiving it,And what if any reaction that you were
anyone happened, Charoe, the entiretable was kind of taken aback, you

(03:22:54):
know, said it wasn't necessary.I wanted to venmo or give cash or
something along those lines, and shedeclined, saying that she was honored to
be there and wanted to pay forit. Turn your attention to the following
day, What if anything you recallabout the next day being that would have

(03:23:18):
been I'm sorry thirty first, Isthat correct? Yes? So, turning
your attention to cemetery the first planetwenty one, what if anything you recall
about in specific regard to mister Johnwas very vocal on the thirtieth on how
he just wanted to sit in thepool and watch the Alabama game and he

(03:23:41):
was a pretty big Alabama fan.Is that correct? Yes? And so
over the course of that day,what if any interactions did you have with
either sorry, with mister what ifany interaction would you have them? I
saw him in the pool. Iknow he is. He was sitting at

(03:24:01):
the pool bar watching the game withJosh. I saw the kids. I
recall seeing Karen. I don't rememberif we spoke or not, but it
was mostly in the pool because wewere waiting for the rest of our friends
to show up. Now, amongstthe rest of your friends that showed up,

(03:24:24):
do you have any siblings? Ido? And how many siblings do
I have? Two? And brother? I have a younger brother and a
younger sister. And with reference toyour younger sister, what's her name,
Marietta? And how much younger thanyou? Was married? She's ten years
younger than me and was Marietta Sullivan. Was she coming in on that day

(03:24:46):
as well? She was? Anddo you recall about what time it was
that she arrived or that she cameinto the one was first time you saw.
It's tough to remember, but Iwant to say everybody showed up on
one of the first or second flightsthat came out of Boston, so'd say
she was there by one pm.And if you recall, what if any

(03:25:07):
plans were there as far as studentwas concerned on that evening annuities. So
what we tend to do is bookreservations and if people are interested in joining,
they can join us. And thatnight we had approximately forty people going
to have dinner on the beach atMumba Beach around I want to say it

(03:25:30):
was like seven o'clock. We hadour reservations for and the mister case and
the Venomus read join you for dinner. That anything they did not know I
think set back just for a moment. As far as Miss Reid was concerned
prior to your rival wann Aruba,did you have her phone number or had
your contact? Did you have anyway of contacting her? And when was

(03:25:52):
it that you got Miss Mings momentJohn had added her and I and Chloe
to a gree group text the nightthat we had gone out for dinner to
make sure that we could all communicatewith Chloe to make sure the kids were
okay. So we got our phonenumber in relation to watching kids. As
far as Patrick Caley and your childrenand everybody else cracks. Now, if

(03:26:16):
you recall you go out to dinnerand think's reservation was about seven or so,
do you recall about what time itwas that you got back to the
hotel. I want to say itwas around nine thirty ten o'clock. By
the time my group got back,I know there was a couple of different
seatings, so we probably got backaround like nine thirty ten o'clock. And

(03:26:37):
as far as your group was concerned, your system Marietta was she within your
group that went out to dinner,Yes, and beyond sort of your younger
sister Marietta, which did you haveother sort of media family with you on
this trip as well? My motherwas with us as well. And with
regard to your system Marietta and yourmother, what if anything was there as

(03:26:58):
far as where were each of themstaying? Uh? So they had their
they had their own room. Ithink it was a couple away from us
on the fifth floor. Is thatthe top floor as far as this hotels,
yes, Now, once you arrivedback to dinner, where where was
you when your group went? Wego to the pool area the kids can

(03:27:22):
swim. We ring in the NewYear at the pool bar, watching it
on the on the TVs, andthen watching the fireworks. Now, when
you came back to the hotel andyou went at some point to the pool
area, this is the marry thatyou know where she went? She actually
when we got back from dinner,she went up to her room with my

(03:27:43):
mom and essentially put my mom tobed. She didn't want to be up
anymore, but she went to gochange as well. Now, when you
came down to the pool area,as far as mister Keith and or miss
Reid was concerned, we see themin that area. I saw John I

(03:28:05):
want to say around ten ten thirtyish, I don't know the exact time.
It was definitely before midnight, andwhere in relations to the hotel by
decision at he was standing behind meat the pool bar. And at some
point, at some point does hersister come out to the pool area after

(03:28:28):
putting your mother down. Yeah,so, right before I saw John at
the pool bar, I saw mysister. She came out and she was
visibly upset. Your honor in regardexcuse me, instarts on as you heard
her quest about this? Maybe allright? Thank you. So. Jurors,
you're about to hear testimony about certainconduct or behavior allegedly committed by miss

(03:28:52):
Reid, be mindful that the defendantis not charged with committing any crimes other
than those charges within the indictments.The witnesses testimony may not, and indeed
must not, be considered by you, as any evidence that the defendant has
a bad character or as evidence thatshe has a propensity to commit the crimes
with which she has been charged.You may not take the defendant's prior acts

(03:29:16):
as a substitute for proof that thedefendant committed the crimes charged here, But
you may consider the act solely onthe limited issue of the state of mind
of the defendant and the nature ofher relationship with John O'Keefe, as it
might go to motive or intent.You may not consider this evidence for any

(03:29:37):
other purpose. Specifically, you maynot use it to conclude that if the
defendant committed the act or acts thatshe must also have committed the offenses with
which she's charged. You can onlyuse the evidence for the limited purpose of
how it goes to the defendant's stateof mind, the nature of her relationship
with John O'Keeffe, as it maygo to motive, and just for the

(03:30:01):
records. My findings are the samethat I made at sidebar previously. Go
ahead, mister ally, thanks nowwith regard to at some point you tip
comes out to the pool area whereyou were, is that right correct?
And you know where mister o'keith wasat that point, I do not know.

(03:30:22):
And when your sister comes out tothe pool area, what what happened?
She said that sustained I thought youwere doing something else. When your
sister comes out through the pool,how would you describe her to meet or
when she comes out? No,ill love that she was frustrated. And

(03:30:43):
at some point did you have aconversation without regard to the conversation, at
some point, did you have aconversation with her about something that had just
happened. Yes, now, followingthat conversation with yours at some point points
subsequent to that, mister o'keef comeback out to the after I spoke with

(03:31:05):
her. Yes, he came outto the poolaria. And you know about
how long a period of time itwas between the time that your sister came
out to the pool era and mistero'keith came up. I mean, I
would say approximately twenty minutes, butI don't I don't really know exact timing.
Now, when mister came back out, did you have any conversation with

(03:31:26):
him? I did, and Ican describe that conversation. All right.
Is this the instruction that you weretalking about instead of the other one?
All right? So will or asI have another instruction for you. So
you're about to hear evidence of statementsmade by John O'Keefe. Is that accurate
now, Misster Lelly? Yes,all right. These statements are being admitted

(03:31:48):
only for a limited purpose of establishingJohn O'Keefe's state of mind. You're not
to consider this testimony as proof thatthe defendant has a bad character or propensity
to commit crimes. The testimony ofwitnesses recounting conversations with mister O'Keefe can only
be used as they go to thedefendant's motive or intent on January twenty eighth

(03:32:09):
or twenty ninth, and only ifyou find that the defendant was aware of
mister O'Keefe's state of mind at thetime of the crime and would be likely
to respond to it. There neednot be direct evidence that the defendant learned
of mister O'Keefe's state of mind,so long as you reasonably can infer from
the evidence that she did learn ofit. Okay, yes, yep,

(03:32:35):
I'm miss Sullivan. If I couldtake you back and mister O'Keeffe comes out
and have a conversation with him,can you describe to the jury of what
that conversation was. I turned aroundand I was pretty shocked to see him.
I said, what's going on?And he said nothing. I said,
did Eda and Karen have words?And he said I don't know.

(03:32:56):
And I said, well, that'snot what Edis said. And I asked
him if everything was okay, Andat that time, his his phone was
lighting up and it was it lookedlike call texts, calls and texts and
it said Karen on his phone.After you make that operation would have been

(03:33:18):
day to Jock. I asked himif he needed to take it, and
yeah, he said yes. She'scrazy. I got to take care of
this. Was that the last timethat you saw him on New Year's Eve?
It is now turning your attention tothe following day, New Year's Day,
you see mister before miss read atall on that I did not.

(03:33:43):
I saw the children, but wedidn't see them that day. No,
now turning your attention to the followingday. Gave January second, what was
sort of a plan as far aswhat was going on that Our hotel has
a private island. The hotel westay out has a private island, and
we rented all eight of the cabanasbetween the sixty of us that were there.

(03:34:07):
And when the cabanas went on sale, I had reached out to John
and asked him if he wanted meto get him one, and he said
sure, So I booked one forhim and he paid me uh for that
cabana. So we all went outthat morning and it was probably around you
know, ten o'clock in the morningand they weren't there yet, and so

(03:34:31):
I sent him a text and Isaid, you know, are you coming
or do you want me to sellthis cabana? Because there was other you
know, couples there at least hecould have made you know the money back.
And he asked me who was there? And I said to everybody,
and I named off. I thinkI named off a couple of names.
I'm not really sure, but Isaid, everybody's here. And when you

(03:34:54):
said that I had a mister responded, he said, well, apparently I
made out with your sister the othernight. According to Karen, now,
is that the first time that shehad heard that? Yes, so fair
to say whatever you had heard fromyour sister on Sember thirty first, was
not that all that correct? Andwhat was your reaction when told you all?

(03:35:24):
I was shocked. I immediately foundmy sister and said, did you
make out with John assisted When youwent to talk to your sister? Who
was it that your sister was withyou? I'm not I don't recall who
was who was standing near her?Maybe my mom. I don't know.

(03:35:45):
As far as your sister was concernedat that time, was she dating someone?
Yes? And the person that shewas dating was that person on the
trip as well? He was yes? And was that person that she was
stating it was on the trip?Well where they at that commands on that
data? They were? Yes.Now, as far as you have some
conversation in regard to sister, andthen at some point you go back and

(03:36:09):
have her the conversation with Yeah,I said, I text him back,
I said, I just talked toEda. She said absolutely not. That
did not happen. Let's sustained.I'll strike that now. At some point
after that exchange, then Miss JillKeith and or Miss Reid and or the

(03:36:33):
kids come out through the caband.They did, yes, And at any
point, how would you describe sortof how mister Keith and or miss Read
was acting when they came out tothe command. But Karen immediately went in
the water. I just recall herbeing like floating in the ocean for a

(03:36:54):
good chunk of the day. Johnwas hopping around from the different command as
talking to people. One of myfavorite pictures of him is with my son
from that day. I have anyconversation with mister Keith once he came out
to the commander, No, wekind of just kept it light. We

(03:37:16):
didn't We didn't really talk about anythingthat had happened. I was just kind
of trying to stay out of itfor now and following sort of the comband
of situation or the command of day. What happened. I suppose that day.
I think I saw John one othertime. I saw him in the

(03:37:39):
pool. It is the one timethat him and I were alone. He
didn't seem like he was himself alone. He seemed distant, and I asked
him if he was okay, andhe kind of just, you know,
shrugged it off. And I said, you know, are you happy?

(03:38:01):
And he kind of, you know, just rolled his eyes and shrugged it
off. I said, well,you know, something along the lines of
life is too short to not behappy, and he goes, well,
you know, Laura, it iswhat it is. And I did ask
him if he wanted to talk aboutit. I said, do you want
to talk about it? And he'slike, not really. And so following

(03:38:28):
back stage in the pool area,when was the next time that you saw
I had spoken to him? Weall went on the Jolly Pirate. We
had all bought tickets in advance,so we had basically rented the whole boat
for everybody to go. He hadbought four tickets, and we had gotten

(03:38:50):
a bus from our hotel, andhe didn't show up for the bus and
wasn't answering my calls or my texts. And then we finally got down to
where the boat was. The boatwas about to leave, and he messaged
me He's like, not going tomake it. Kids slept late, and
so I didn't think anything of it. Then after that, I saw him

(03:39:13):
and Karen the night before they left, and they ended up leaving a day
or two early so that the kidscould get back to school. And when
you saw them, where was thatin relationship? Right outside the hotel is
a marketplace that has a bunch ofrestaurants and arcade. I was sitting at
the five o'clock somewhere bar that looksinto the arcade with my best friend Val

(03:39:39):
and my friends Dave and Laura,and Karen and John walked up. What
if any conversations did you have witheither or the dependent of that. Karen
grabbed me and she said, hey, I'm sorry. I thought I saw
something that I didn't and I wouldlike to pay for some of your sis

(03:40:00):
there's room. And how did yourespond to that? I said, it's
absolutely not necessary. Just an apologywill do. And did she persist in
wanting to pay for the room?She did? And how she just said,
I I will apologize, but Isomething along the lines of you know,
I want to pay for some ofher room. Can I just have

(03:40:20):
her room number? I don't rememberif I gave her the room member or
not, I don't really know.And with regard to that trip, when
when was the next time, well, when was the last time that you
saw So the day that they wereleaving, I saw him by the pool.

(03:40:41):
He came up, he gave mea big hug. He said,
I love you, this was agreat trip, Thank you so much.
And I said, well, you'redefinitely in again for next year and he
said absolutely. And that was thelast time I physically saw him. And
so that conversation just turned back fora moment. As far as with regards

(03:41:01):
to this creat you know what daythat would have been, as far as
in relations to when leaving early Januarythirty seventh, I want to say it
was a fifth. I want tosay it was January fifth. Now after
after we did, you're having aconversation we can still keep. After that,

(03:41:24):
I talked to him via text acouple of times about a couple of
different things, but one of themwas, as I mentioned, we start
planning a year in advance, andI said, rooms are coming available,
are you in? And he said, let me let me recover from this
trip first. Now, man,if I could turn your attention to Saturday,

(03:41:48):
January twenty ninth, twenty twenty forall that day, I do,
And at some point that warning orduring that day, call I did.
I received a call from I'll hearthat she received a call from some I've

(03:42:09):
received a call from my aunt.And what did you learn in the call
from your OA that John O'Keefe hadpassed away? And after you hung up
the phone with Ron's what what didyou do with that this subject? I
called him, I called anybody's numberthat I had associated with the family.

(03:42:37):
I ended up calling Kaylee. Itexted Kallie. I texted Karen, and
without any regard to what said,did Kelly respond to you? She did,
And at some point the defendant's readand respond to you as well.
She did. Was that a phonecall or a text? Or how it

(03:42:58):
was a text? Later that afternoon, and you recall what she said in
the text. She said, Hi, Laura, John has passed And what
if anything you responded to that?I said, oh my god, what

(03:43:20):
happened? And she said, wefound him in the snow at five am?
And what if anything. Did youask or I said, what happened?
I just recall, you know,kind of going into a talesman asking
a bunch of questions, and shementioned she said, I don't know.

(03:43:41):
We were both at the same party. I didn't go in. I went
home. I had a moment.Yes, I have nothing further for this,
Thank you, Thank afternoon. Youwere not president at the Waterfall Bar

(03:44:13):
and Grill on January twenty eighth oftwenty twenty two in the Canyon, I
was not. You were not presentat thirty four Fairview Road in Campton on
January twenty nine for twenty twenty two. It's not yet. You'll agree with
me that Michael Proctor, the statepolice trooper, visited you at your home

(03:44:33):
in all Ways in Pembroke, Massachusetts, on February eighth of twenty twenty two
to interview you. Yes, nothingfor so anything, just briefly, as
far as Troop Proctor coming to yourhouse, was he alone or who,

(03:44:56):
if anyone else was he with?When he was he was with another trooper?
Okay, and do you recall whothat trooper was, Trooper Fanning Nothink
for on your next weeks, Yes, call miss Maryetta Sullivan. Also,

(03:45:16):
I'll see you while we're waiting.Sullivan please m hm almost resting recording during
the case down answer h all right, mister allie, whenever you're ready.

(03:45:50):
Good afternoon, Good afternoon. Couldyou please state your name and spell your
last name? Sure? My nameis Marietta Sullivan. Last name is s
U L L. I am?And where are you living in right now?
I live in Plymouth? And howlong have you lived since July of
the past summer, so not evena year yet? And do you work

(03:46:11):
then? I do? And whatdo you do? I'm a director at
a memory care community. How longhave you been doing that? Just over
a year now? Do you haveany any siblings? I do? And
how many siblings do you have?I have two older younger both older and
brothers sisters brother and sister. Andyour sister Laura Sullivan? And what is

(03:46:39):
sort of the age difference between yourselfand your sister? We are ten years
apart. Now, if I couldtry your attention to New Year's specifically twenty
twenty one into twenty twenty two,do you recall that time, friend?
I do? And do you recallwhere was that you were? Where you
were going for that time, Yes, sir, we were going to Aruba

(03:47:01):
for a family trip. And isthat sort of an annual family trip it
has become since then. It wasthe first time I had attended. And
do you recall sort of the timeframe on that trip as far as when
you were leaving when you were comingin. Yeah. So we left on
Friday the thirty first, and rereturned the next week Friday the seventh.

(03:47:22):
And when you say we, whois my mother? And I flew out
together with another group of people tomeet my sister and brother in law down
in Aruba. And at that timewe meet them down their head and sister
Laura had she flown down prior toyou she had. Yes. And at
that particular time, were you datingsomeone? It was I was seeing somebody.

(03:47:46):
Yes, And the person that youwere seeing was that person coming on
the trip as well? He was, Yeah, the day after we got
there. So your sister arrives onthe thirtieth, you arrived on the thirty
first, and the person you wereseeing arrives on those books. Yes.
Now when you arrived there, doyou know about how many people were on
this trip? I would say overthirty upwards of yeah, I would say

(03:48:11):
over thirty is the best estimate Icould give you. And as far as
this trip was concerned, do yourecall what to stay? Yep, we
stayed at the Renaissance Aruba. Isthat someone that you stayed on this occasion
as well a subsequent occasion? Yes, And on the thirty first when you
and your mother arrived, as youcalled about what time of day was that

(03:48:31):
you got there? So our flightlanded round three thirty ish, I would
say, weren't at the hotel muchlater than that. And with regard to
the hotel, the hotel has alobby areas at rec Yes, sir,
you can describe to the jury whatdoes that layout look like? What does
the law sure? So right whenyou walk in the front doors. Right

(03:48:54):
in front of you is the checkin desks, three or four of them.
In front of you. To theleft of you when you come in
is a hallway to one side ofthe hotel. To the right of you
is a bank of elevators that leadsto another hallway that leads to the other
first floor side of the hotel.You're in a big lobby and then directly

(03:49:16):
across from where the elevators are isthe entrance to the pool area and when
you arrive on there. When youarrived there at some point in time on
the late afternoon thirty, first youoboly check into your room and then following
that, where do you go from? So we checked into our room and
then happy hour was starting around fourthirty, so we met everybody down at
the pool for that time in thatarea, Yes, pool bar. And

(03:49:41):
so when you get down to thepool bar area, if anyone specifically,
did you see your did you vinals? So first ran into my sister,
gave her a hug, the restof the kids and my brother. As
soon as I got into the pool, I ran into Johnny and a couple
of our other friends that were sittingat the pool bar down there. And

(03:50:01):
with reference to who you referred toas John, what's his last name,
John O'Keeffe, And that was someonethat you knew at the time. Was
that correct? Yes? And howdid you know? He was a very
very dear family friend. He wasvery close to my sister, subsequently became
very close to me and my familyas a result, and he was my

(03:50:24):
nephew's godfather. And fair to saythat you had known him for some substantial
period of time Yeah, since Ben'sfather unfortunately passed away. So at this
point in time, when we're talkingabout turning from twenty to twenty one and
twenty twenty two, how long hadyou known mister Keith that oh man,

(03:50:48):
probably about eight nine years. It'sas long as my nephew's been alive.
And when is it that you wouldsee or how often would you see mister
h Family parties, any family partythat we threw, kids' birthday parties and
my sister's Christmas party that you wouldthrow every year, And how would you
describe sort of the nature of yourrelationship with Misterield. He was similar to

(03:51:11):
a big brother to me. Hewas somebody who was there for my sister
during her darkest times. So Ireally respected him for that. But yeah,
he was a he was a bigbrother and a family friend. Now,
when you saw mister Keith at theat the fool Bar after you arrived
there, what if any conversations didyou have with him or what if anything
of you? So I went upto him in the pool He had his

(03:51:35):
Alabama hat on. He expressed tome that he was excited to watch the
Alabama football game at the pool bargiven the circumstances. We were in a
beautiful tropical place and he got towatch his favorite college team play football,
and he said that's all he reallywanted to do for the day, was
be able to watch that game.Now, at this point in time that
you're talking, miss Jill Keep,were you aware of him dating anybody?

(03:51:58):
Anybody that he was dating at thattime? I had not met the person
that he was dating. I hadheard about her through family friends and other
people that were on the trip.As far as the other sort of family
events that you would see, misterKeith that his reads or his girlfriend at
that time wasn't over there with him. So after the time that you spent

(03:52:24):
at the pool bar that afternoon,do you call what else you did that
evening? Yep. So most ofus in the group had dinner reservations.
I believe they were around seven pmand we were all getting ready to leave
the pool bar to get picked uparound six thirty. And as far as
fairly large group that went out todinner that night, yeah, most of

(03:52:46):
us. And was mister O'Keefe partof that group that went out to dinner,
he was not your call about whattime it was that you got back
to a return in the hotel.Most of us got back a little after
nine. Taxis were kind of crazyto get so little after nine. And
when you got back to the hotel, where did you do? I went
upstairs to check on my mom.She had gone in a bank of taxis

(03:53:09):
before me, so I went upstairsto make sure that she was up there
and safe and in the room.And so, however long you spent up
in the Rooman's mother at some pointdidn't come back. I did. And
when you came back down, bydown, I mean your call where you
were staying in the hotel? Yep, So we were on the fourth floor
of the hotel. So I tookthe elevator up and then I took it

(03:53:30):
back down to the lobby. Atthat point in time, when you're getting
back from dinner and going up tothe room and coming back down, were
you where mister o'keith and his nieceand nephew were staying, And yeah,
I knew what they were saying,Yes, room wise, yeah, And
where was that in relation to thefirst floor. So lobby's on the first

(03:53:50):
floor, the room floor, yes, So when the elevator gets down to
the when the elevator gets down tothe lobby level, you get out of
that, correct, So you haveto say okay, you just have to
answer yes, sorry, that's thething. So the elevator gets spent down

(03:54:11):
the lobby and you walk out withanyone you see when you come out.
So when the elevator opens up,I the first person I saw was the
attendant standing behind the desk. Ididn't see anybody else in the lobby with
me until I stepped out. WhenI stepped out, I looked to my
left and I saw Johnny coming inthrough the first set of outside doors.
Now, as far as mister o'keithwas concerned, was there any other sort

(03:54:33):
of term that you would use torefer to him? Johnny or godfather?
You're all right, I think thismay be all right. So, folks,
that I'm going to say again thatfirst instruction I gave you with the
last witness, that you're about tohear testimony about certain conduct of behavior allegedly
committed by the defendant. Miss Reidis not charged with committing any crimes other

(03:54:58):
than those charge within the indictment.So this witness's testimony may not and must
not be considered by you as anyevidence that the defendant has a bad character
or is evidence that she may havea propensity to commit the crimes with which
she's been charged. You may nottake the defendant's prior acts that you'll hear
about as a substitute for proof thatthe defendant committed the crimes charged here.

(03:55:20):
But you may consider the act solelyon the limited issue of the defendant state
of mind and the nature of herrelationship with John O'Keefe, as it might
go to motive or intent. Youmay not consider this evidence for any other
purpose. Specifically, you may notuse it to conclude that if the defendant
committed these acts, that she mustalso have committed the offenses with which she's

(03:55:43):
been charged. You can only usethe evidence for the limited purpose of how
it goes to the defendant state ofmind, motive, and the nature of
her relationship with John o'keef, andfor the same findings that I made it
Ziper. Yes, as you walkout of the elevator, you're by yourself
right, Yes, and you seemister okeep. Could you see where mister

(03:56:07):
o'keep was in a relational lobby orwhere he's coming from. He was coming
from the outside doors into the lobby. Is that where the pool bar is
located opposite side? Yes? Andwhen you see him come in with anyone
do you see with him? Initiallynobody with him? And what if anything
was he doing or how was heacting? Sort of wing so he sort

(03:56:30):
of stumbled in. I came outof the elevator and my initial response to
him was whoa you? Okay?I actually said whoa godfather you okay?
But yeah, he was stumbling intothe lobby, and did you go with
him? I did. I wentup to him and gave him a hug.
And what happened? Then I pulledback. He was glassy eyed,

(03:56:56):
looking above me. We never madeeye contact. He was looking above me.
It looked like he was looking forsomeone. I asked him, where
are you going, assuming that hewould be coming to the pool bar to
meet us. Uh. He keptlooking around, and he indicated that he
was going that way and pointed towarda bank of rooms to our right,
and I said, well, youshould go that way, and I stepped

(03:57:18):
back and I guided him toward thearea that he was going, as far
as the bank of rooms to theright. Communicated that you were familiar or
aware of where mister keith was,and where the children were is that direct?
I know they were on the firstfloor. I'm not one d per
positive as to where exactly their roomswere. And if you know, then
you know whether or not that mistero'keith was staying in the same rooms as

(03:57:41):
Patrick mccalley. At that point,I didn't know that if they were staying
in the same room or not.No, so you point him in that
direction, and what happened? SoI pointed in that direction. He walked
off. I continued out to thepool bar when I heard very loudly his
name screamed across the lobby, veryangrily, and it made me stop in

(03:58:05):
my tracks. And when you're stoppingthe tracks, what happened? I started
to turn around to come back in. So once you go out to the
pool bar, you kind of goaround a corner and you go out of
view. So I turned around togo back in. As I'm going back
in, I hear someone yell whothe fuck was that? And as I
come around the corner, I seemister O'Keeffe walking toward a woman and they

(03:58:31):
were and he said, excuse me, he said, calm down, that's
that's Laura's little sister. And whathappened when I came back around the corner,
I said, after mister O'Keefe said, calm down, that's Laura's little
sister. I said, Hi,nice to meet you. That's when Miss

(03:58:54):
Reid's had snapped up and she veryloudly told me to go fuck myself across
the lobby and I said, yeah, fuck you too, and walked away.
Just to be clear, when yousay, mister read this is someone
that you became familiar with, thiswent a hole. This was my first
interaction with her. I had neverbeen fully introduced to her at all.
I just had seen her sitting bythe side of the pool when I had

(03:59:16):
been talking to Johnny earlier in theday. And the person you know to
be Miss Reid's. And do yousee you're in the poorroom today? I
do. Could you just describe uswhere she's seemed into an audible clothing missions.
Sure, she's in a black andwhite checkered laser two people in from
you. That's a record reflective edification. Yes, as far as Miss Reid

(03:59:39):
was concerned, What if anything didyou observe as far as the dependence beyond
the yelling what, if anything didyou observe as far as her mean or
how she was acting at the timethat this interaction was going on. She
was just very loud, She veryyou know, energetically screamed for me to
go fuck myself. She was wavingher hands. Johnny was trying to calm

(04:00:01):
her down, and after I saidyeah, fuck you too, I went
out to the pool bar. SoI didn't see much after that. And
could you hear anything as far aswhen you're walking out to the pool bar,
as far as any other conversation betweenthe defendant and not after that first
time? No, you go backto before you go out to the pool
bar, and with anyone did youtalk to. I went straight up to

(04:00:24):
my older sister Laura, who wasout to dinner with the couple the night
before, and I said, I'llallow this part. I went up to
her and I looked at her andI said John o'kee's girlfriend. And she
looked at me and said Karen,And I said, yeah, you guys
like her. She said yeah,she's okay, and I said, well

(04:00:48):
she sucks now following that pa ticketat any point in time later in that
evening, she he did mister o'keefor miss Read later on that evening.
I did not see them, No, And when was the next time,
which she is I saw them brieflyon the second, which was the day

(04:01:11):
that we rented cabanas on the island. And when you say you briefly saw
them about can you describe? Sowe had all rented the cabanas. Each
family had one or they were sharingone. I was sharing one with my
family down at the end. Wegot about halfway through the day and realized
that their family cabana was still empty. So I saw them about halfway through

(04:01:33):
the day when they did come tothe cabana. And I briefly saw miss
Read and mister O'Keeffe at the poolthe island bar that same day. But
there was no conversation with regard tomister O'Keefe and miss Reid at some point
in time on that day of thecabanas. What if any conversation did you
have with your sister regarding so myOh I don't know what this is.

(04:02:00):
Yeah, I'll see it sidebar quickly. Jurors, please be mindful of that
second instruction that I gave you regardingevidence of statements made by John O'Keefe for
the limited purpose of establishing his stateof mind. And I will fully give
you this instruction again at the endof the case. So it's the same

(04:02:22):
one that I already gave you.Go ahead, mister Lellysolvent. With regard
to the day at the commands,did you have some conversation with was just
more in regard to mister And whatif anything did Miss Laura telling you she
had learned from mister. So mysister pulled me aside from everybody and asked,

(04:02:43):
if the night that I got intothe altercation with Miss Read in the
lobby, if I was making outwith mister O'Keeffe, how did you respond
that I absolutely was not. Andlet me say absolutely, it was not
beyond the fact that it didn't occur. Why would he was, I'll allow
it. He was family, hewas my older brother. For all intents

(04:03:07):
and purposes. It just never wouldhave happened between us. And you expressed
that to your sister, Is thatcorrectly? I did? Yes. Now,
as far as the remainder of thetrip was concerned, starting with the
defender, Miss Read, what ifany other interactions did you have none?

(04:03:28):
And as far as mister keith wasconcerned, what if any further interactions did
you have with him? None?That was it? And was that normal?
Or as far as mister that,as far as I knew Johnny,
that wasn't normal. He would alwayscome up to us, up to our

(04:03:50):
family, try to be around mynephew, his godchild, and he was
always the life of the party andwanted to be around his family and his
friends. And following that trip inAerobo, did you see mister o'keith again,
I did not. Nothing further onall right, mister tian Eddy,
thank you, definitely, Miss Suivanofair to say that you were not at

(04:04:16):
the Waterfall Bar and Grill on Januarytwenty eighth of twenty twenty two in Canton.
I was not. You were notat thirty four Fairview Road in Canton
on January twenty nine, correct,it was not. Yet Trooper Proctor drove
all the way to Pembroke to interviewyou on February eighth of twenty twenty two.

(04:04:41):
Did he not? He did nothing, slowly anything, just very briefly,
Miss Sullivan. When Trooper Proctor cameto the house in Pembroke, were
you living there at that time?I was. And was he alone or
was he with another trooper? Hewas with another trooper? And do you
recall that trooper name? I don'tnow with regard to your conversation with Trooper

(04:05:03):
Proctor and the other trooper that day? Was it just you that he spoke
to me? Let me ask youa different one. Okay, As far
as when the troopers came to yourhouse in February eighth, are you the
only person from your home that thetroopers spoke to that day? With anyone

(04:05:24):
else? Did they speak to themall? They spoke to my sister first,
And at any point did they speakto your sister? Well? No,
And when they spoke to you?And when when they spoke to you,
where was she was outside of thehouse? She wants to pick up
my nephew. And when they spoketo your sister where I was downstairs in

(04:05:45):
my room which was in the basement. And could you hear what they were
talking about? When when you whenthey were talking to I could not?
All right, So awesome, thankyou? All right? So birds,
we're actually finished with witnesses for today. We've finished everyone that we could hope

(04:06:07):
to finish for today, So we'redone for the day. As you know,
we're not in session tomorrow, butwe will see you Friday, and
Friday will be a full day.So please those three cautions. Do not
discuss this case with anyone. Don'tdo any independent research or investigation in the
case. If you happen to seehere we'll read anything about the case,

(04:06:31):
please disregard and let us know.Just leave everything here literally figuratively clear your
heads to see. Thank you verymuch. Around all right, that makes

(04:07:09):
sense? Maybe seated? All right, So hopefully we will start and finish
that one witness on Friday anyway,but have a second witness here. I'll
have at least a couple other witnesses, Okay, but it would be great
if we could complete the testimony ofthat one witness for us. Whats of

(04:07:31):
reasons will I'm hopeful, I am, I think okay, anything I need
to look at or anything in particularfor Friday? Probably may we approach this
briefly? Okay? Hey there,Karen Reid trial watchers. This is a

(04:07:54):
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(04:08:16):
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