E12: Dee Dee Blanchard Murder Trial Day 3.3 Dr Kent Franks Clinical Psychologist Testifies

E12: Dee Dee Blanchard Murder Trial Day 3.3 Dr Kent Franks Clinical Psychologist Testifies

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
It is, and the instruction thatyou proposed that I gave is four hundred
point zero two q zer zero twozero costitute destitutes zero, and the state
opposes us a construct re as wellif you die. I've considered this.

(00:27):
Actually, that's why I'm a littledelayed here in the Carrother's decision, which
frankly, there's very little Frankly,there's no case on this. We're breaking
ground. We're trying to rule fairlyto your pliant, but also in accordance
with the law. The Carother's decision, the concurring decision talks about the statutory

(00:50):
provision for conducting a mental health examinationor notes that evidence obtained during that cannot
be used for purposes as you're shiftingto exclude. Concurringly, you also states
that the alternative manner that would beRule fourty five in Kings no such a

(01:15):
find that finding, which I agreewith Rule twenty five is not limit what
can be used. You're finding thatthe examination of your client was conducted under
the auspices of Lular forty five,as evidence by the state's motion. I'm

(01:37):
going to deny your request to givethe journey and the instruction requesting and I'll
show that a review of tection nowthat the communication reparation. Yes, I
regarded doctor Frank's testimony and the possibilityof doctor BENI act, yes, sir,
that's how I was interpreting it.As you can make a regment,

(01:57):
you get to be finding yes,sir, research mis passion. I wasn't
trying to cut you off, butknowing how I was going to little do
you wish to supplement? Now Ican make the rectname and make them you
have any instruction contents are But that'smy ruling is and again is because this
is consented to Underlover twenty five thatthe restrictions contained in section five five two

(02:23):
are not applicable, and therefore theinstruction itself is not require subject to continuing
the objection by the Prince. Areyou going to call doctor Franks? Yeah?
Or and this is just for ourhousekeeping purposes. Do you think we'll
be finished today? Yes? Ididn't. I can't think. They ask,

(02:45):
okay, right, are we readyfor the jury? Then? Yes,
it's very very yes, yes pleasethese okay, it's Brad. Do
you have another wizards? Yes,Church, I just saw doctor Kent Franks

(03:07):
like friends school or after they haveto see you. Okay, but elsewhere
are your moistures? Sit with You'salways? Who have the testimony You're about
to give him? The claws openingbefore the court will be the truth,
the whole truth and building of thetruth self you got I do. Thank

(03:27):
you. There's not a lot ofroom there. If you wanna set things
there, that's finely too. Thankyou for coverage. Jesus. Just tell
us your name Kent Wesley Franks,And can you tell us how do you
employed? I'm a clinical psychologist.I'm in a private practice. And how

(03:52):
long have you been a clinical psychologist? Obtained a PhD in nineteen eighty seven?
What is a clinical psychologist? Clinicalpsychology is the study of behavior.
And how does one of the kindof a clinical psychologists? Bull it entails
an undergraduate degree minus in psychology,a master's degree, and then a PhD

(04:13):
in psychology. And then if youpractice, you have to get a lot.
Where did you get your edgegraduate degreefrom? I went to Missouri State
University here in town. Do yousay you have a master's degree? I
do from where? California School ProfessionalPsychology, and then your PhD's from the
same school. And when did youget your PhD nineteen eighty seven. Now,

(04:39):
what type of clinical psychology do youpractice? Do you have a specific
type? I've always been a forensicpsychologist, okay, And and how does
that differ from uh, anything else? I mean, how does how?
What is a clinical psychologist? I'msorry, I'm distracting for just one money?
What is a forensic psychologist? Right? Well, it's where psychology intersects

(05:01):
with the law, will behavior intersectswith the law? And as a brandic
psychologist, what kinds of things wouldyou what kinds of evaluation would you be
doing? Mostly over the years,I've done competency to stand trial evaluations determine
whether or not someone is legally insaneat the time of committing a crime,

(05:25):
risk assessment evaluations to determine whether ornot someone can be safely and effectively managed
in the community, what level ofstructure they will require, and a lot
of sex offender evaluations to determine theirrisk of reoffense and their diagnosis. You
have any idea how many of theseevaluations you conducted in the field of forensic

(05:46):
psychology, about two thousand in thelast thirty years. Any idea how many
of those are working? For theday of Missouri. I moved to Missouri
from California in two thousand four,and I've done sexual predator evaluations for the
Attorney General's office. I UH probablydone about fifty of those evaluations for the

(06:10):
Missouri Attorney General and a few evaluationsfor the United States Attorney on aggravated sex
offender. And how many do youthink you've done for the Criminal Defense Park?
Do you have any ideat the restof them? So somewhere in the
neighborhood of a of a thousand evaluationsfor defense attorneys, can you tell us

(06:33):
where a CD is? What's aCD curriculum? THETA? And I'm gonna
failure more more so we get marked, but I'm gonna mark have I then
as it did the A and askme you can recognize this document. It's
a multi page document just kind ofpersonal user. This is my curriculum THETA.

(06:55):
I mean, how many pages isthe document? It's five? And
what all is it is listed inthat document in terms of your experience and
training and whatnot. Well, itgoes through my education and my occupational history
and my UH presentations and publications.Yet I would ask it dependence that it

(07:16):
eighty minion, and of it noobjection that we received that. Now,
have you ever testified in a criminalcase before? I have? How many
times can you attest in criminal case? I think about a hundred and twenty.
And in those hundred and twenty cases, were you ever declared an expert?

(07:36):
I always was, So every timeyou testified in priminitent cation, was
it as an expert? After Igot licensed, I testified ways as an
intern because I was working in aforensic facility and I was not qualified then.
But it was only because I wasn'tlicensed. After I've been licensed,
I was qualified jet job. Iasked the quint and UH declared in what

(07:57):
the issue of as a crit Asa bringing house, I can actually labor
foundations. You wonder, man,Actually you don't think that's the appropriate really
taking me them out to attestify asan extry. I don't think it's probably
report to declare anyone an expert,count on the qualification, but I think
I think that all would be good. We would, we would all.
I will allow out the threats totestify all the area. Are you familiar

(08:20):
with autism? Yes? Helps withautism. It's a neurological disorder. It's
considered brain based and it's characterized bytwo different things. The first is impairment
in social abilities, the ability toread social cues, to understand nonverbal cues,

(08:41):
and to pick up on the appropriateemotional responses of other people. Folks
with autism suffer from severe deficits intheir social behavior. And then the second
prong is repetitive stereotype movements. Theytend to collect things they have h and
insistence upon saneness. They don't likechanges in their routine. Everything needs to

(09:05):
be exactly the same, and therewill be large collections and it could be
anything. It could be rocks,it could be action figures, it could
be data and information. But thoseare the two the two primary characters.
Are you familiar with the DSM.Yes? What is the It's the Diagnostic
and Statistical Manual. It's it's updatedevery few years and it lists the criteria

(09:30):
for the various mental disorders. Andthat's the book that we use to make
diagnoses. What is the current volumeof the DSM five? In the DSM
five is autism listed as one ofas one of the diagnoses it is It's
called autism spectrum disorder. And howdoes autism and Autism spectrum disorder GET.

(09:56):
Autism spectrum disorder is the official nameas it's listed in the DSM five.
Autism is more of a the termthat has been used over the years.
The diagnosis was updated in the mostrecent DSM and which changed to autism spectrum

(10:16):
disorder and that's just simply what wecall it now. Are there more than
one spec Are more than one onthe autism spectrum disorder? Is there more
than one autism respectum disorder? Uh? That is the main diagnosis. There
are other developmental disorders, but there'sonly one autism spectrum disorder. But it's
considered a range. That's why theycall it a spectrum. So there's cases

(10:41):
that vary in severity level one,level two, and level three. That's
why it's getting the level three.Can you describe the the three levels one,
two, and three levering it themost severe right l Level one is
somebody that can function adequately with support. They need structure, They need someone

(11:01):
to help them make decisions, adaptto social situations and provide guidance for them.
But they can function out in theworld. Sometimes they can get jobs,
sometimes they can participate in in highereducation classes and a lot of times
they can have a family and havea life and independent life and function independently

(11:24):
as long as they're getting help.Level two is somebody that continues to demonstrate
impairment even though they're in a structuredsituation, even though they're getting help,
and someone is basically looking out fortheir needs, their activities of daily living,
helping them with grooming, cooking,laundry and all of those things,
and despite that level of structure andhelp, they're still having impairment. And

(11:48):
then level three is the most profoundlevel of disorder, and that would be
somebody who's characterized with severe deficits intheir ability to take care of themselves,
communicate, solve problem, and basicallyfunction in any meaningful way. Do you
have any experience with people with AUTIVII do? Kay tell us about your

(12:09):
experience with people withoutiment? Well,it it wasn't added in to the DSM
until nineteen ninety four, and soit's the disorder has been known since the
nineteen forties, but as research hasaccumulated, it's become much more Clusions are
looking for it more than we usedto because there's a lot more that's known

(12:33):
about it, and so in thework that I do in evaluating people for
the courts. I've learned how toadminister the tasks. I've learned how to
identify it, and I've gone totraining so that to increase my knowledge about
the disorder over the last ten years. What challenge does with children with autism
pivoting The most profound challenge is gonnabe interpersonal. They're gonna have difficulty with

(12:58):
making friends. They're going to havea hard time and generally be unable to
establish a social niche. They're goingto be the kids that don't fit in,
that live on the fringes. They'reoftentimes bullied, their peers think they're
weird, and they just never reallyfit in, and so they're solitary and
they play by themselves, and theytend to be drawn towards the television,

(13:22):
video games, maybe animals. Theyget along better with things than they do
with people, and so as aresult of that, usually they're by themselves
and their social experiences are really negative, and so that reinforces the isolation.
They get to be afraid to bearound people because they'll get picked on and
they're bullied, and they're the challengesyou adolescense with autism expectators or have as

(13:46):
they become adults, well, theyhave many of the same challenges because when
you get into high school, peerpressure is obviously very important, and so
it's hard for them to find aniche of group. Sometimes they'll associate with
the kids that play video games,the gamers, and they'll be able to
make some friends in that context,but essentially they're going to be regarded as

(14:11):
unusual, different, and a lotof times they're going to be shunned by
their peer group, and so thatcreates a host of problems with regard to
self esteem, self image, theway that you feel about yourself and your
confidence. You tend to withdraw andavoid social situations. What calendar what adults

(14:31):
in generals who are on the outkidding actor usory? Well, the research
has shown that when kids get outof high school, they lose that structure.
So usually these are people who areinvolved in special classes, behavioral classes,
special education, and there's folks thatare working with them and trying to
help them do their school work andprovide structure. When they get out of

(14:54):
high school, they lose that andso, depending upon their socioeconomic status and
their cognitive abilities, a lot oftimes they're functioning declines when they get out
of high school because they don't havethe help that they were having before.
It depends a lot on their cognitiveabilities. If if they don't have a
cognitive disability and their intelligences at leastaverage or low average, the outcomes are

(15:18):
oftentimes better. It also depends onfamily support and if they have somebody that's
trying to help them. If theydon't, the outcomes are often often negative.
They have difficulty finding employment, establishingfamilies, and oftentimes I think sort
of exist on the fringes. Howcould where on the outspect the disorder?

(15:43):
How could it affect their decision making? Decision making is really hard. These
are folks that it's a neurological disorder, and so their ability to adapt and
solve problems and think on their feetis impaired by definition. And so that's
why they like routine, They likesaneness, They like to collect things because

(16:07):
they can understand that if they ventureoutside of their safety zone, they have
a lot of problems, especially astimulating, complex social environment. They're not
going to do well in that situationat all. What impairments could they face
in the name that it could bea rage of impairment, depending upon the
severity of their disorder. At themild end, it would just be difficult

(16:33):
to connecting with people, loneliness,isolation, depression, anxiety problems that are
associated with trying to connect with otherpeople. At the more severe end of
the spectrum, they could put themselvesinto dangerous situation. There was a lack
of reasoning and they could they unlesssomeone is looking out for them, they

(16:56):
could venture into all kinds of situationsthat ultimately could be dangerous or harmful for
them. We we've heard some discussionof Asperger's yingder and what tells what that
is. Asperger's was named after theperson doctor Asperger's, who originally identified the
disorder, and it's considered the mildform of autism. It's uh considered a

(17:18):
higher functioning form of autism. WithAspergers, you don't have the cognitive impairment.
Their intelligence is either an average orlow average range, but there's still
the social impairment. There's the difficultyconnecting with people and understanding emotional give and
tank, and they also have theinsistence on saneness and routine and the collecting

(17:41):
behaviors. They just don't have thecognitive disability, and you use that term
anymore. It was removed because autismis considered a spectrum disorder, and so
level one on the autism spectrum disorderwould probably be consistent with what used to
be known as as asked Berger's disorder. Do you know somebody by the name

(18:02):
and Nicholas Godi Johnny? Yes?How do you know mister Godijohn? I
evaluated him right? And and whendid you uh meet with him? I
saw him the first time for sevenhours at the Green County Detention Facility on
December twenty nine, two thousand fifteen. Then I saw him the second time

(18:23):
on July twenty nine, twenty sixteen, And Harry average did you meet with
he had for him? And isthat unusual to meet with somebody for that
long given the kind of evaluation you'redoing. No, it's not unusual.
I also interviewed his dad for anhour on the telephone. And is that
something you typically do it an evaluationinterviewed a family member. It's not unusual,

(18:45):
Okay, why would you do it? In this case? There is
a relatives questionnaire for the autism spectrumdisorder where you it's a rating scale,
and I wanted to Uh, administerthat to his father, and so we
did that and the telephone, andI also wanted to get additional background information
from his father. When you doan evaluation, is it justifing interview or

(19:07):
is there other aspects of the evaluation? Well, for me, I always
begin with a fairly lengthy biographical interviewand I get their history, and then
once that's completed, depending upon thecase, I follow up a psychological tape.
And why do you get the biographicalinformation? Why is that important?
Well, the history is what determineswho we are though. Our childhood is

(19:29):
extremely important in our psychological development.And so if you understand the nature of
the person's childhood, you will knowa lot about why they are who they
are as an adult. And thenit's important together as much information as you
can to arrive at the correct diagnosisand the correct conceptualization of the case.
So you gather as much information asyou can from as many sources as you

(19:52):
can, you know, in thehopes of developing an accurate evaluation. Now,
what kind of catch do you need, you, conductor Uh, during
your evaluation of use your gout on. I gave them an IQ test,
the White Store Adult Intelligence Scale fourthedition, the current one that's being used
in the field. I administered theWide Range Achievement Test to evaluate his reading,

(20:15):
spelling, and arithmetic abilities. Iuse two personality tests, actually I
used three, the Workshop eight Blocktest, the MNPI which stands for multiphase
a Personality Inventory, and then Iused an old test UH called the thematic
a perception test because it's UH portraysin their personal situations and sometimes it's used

(20:40):
in people with autism spectrum disorders tohelp you evaluate their understanding of people and
social situations. That's all I sayabout you. Yes, sir, I'm
trying to keep up, and Iknow some of the Jersey you're using terms
that may not be familiar with atall. It's understood. Thank you.
Basically when I I wanted to sayis it's an old test. I don't

(21:02):
always use it, but sometimes it'shelpful with autism spectrum disorder cause you s
you show them pictures of social situationsand ask them to make up a story
that goes with it, and youcan get an idea of how the conceptualize
social situations from what they come upwith. M Now, you you indicated
that you give bod or give misterGodegin, that correct, I did.

(21:23):
I took his history. Can youtell us a little bit about his birth?
Is there anything notable as a asa psychologist about his birth or what
you know about it? His fatherreported to me that there was some indication
his mother in life drank during pregnancyand then who there might have been some
drug use. He knew about oneoccasion for each The birth was complicated.

(21:47):
She was in labor I think forthirteen hours and the umbilical cord was wrapped
around his neck and they used asuction cup to deliver him. And uh.
The doctors told his father that hisbrain may have been deprived of oxygen
for a period of time during thedelivery because of the umbilical court. M
and what when was he born?His birthday is May twenty, nineteen eighty

(22:14):
nine. Did you find anything abouthis family life? It did, and
he was growing up. Tell usabout that well. His mom and dad
were married. They split up whenhe was about four years old. It
was not a happy marriage. Theydid not get along very well. He
stayed with his mother following the separation. She worked and he was not very
attentive to him, and so hespent a lot of time by himself in

(22:38):
addition to having autis inspectrum disordered.He was actually physically alone for much of
his childhood. And she wasn't veryattentive to him, and it didn't sound
like they had very close bond.He spent some time with his father,
but his mother was a custodian aaronAnd there were several incidents and how did
Jack when the sisters some time toget to his day here? What this

(23:02):
help usly? I believe it will? Well? Wasn't then a lot for
the time they wed to park inthe patient party in the mind. There
was an incident where she worked asa waitress and brought home some old food
and and uh, he ate itand became really sick. And there was

(23:22):
some evidence to suggest that she didn'ttake care of his medical needs. But
when then ultimately he went to livewith his father when he was a teenager,
and came back to live with hismother when he was about sixteen or
seventeen years old. And I thinkthe situation was improved by that time.
What were kind of educational level didhe acquired? He graduated from high school,
but he was a lifelong special educationstudent. The autism was diagnosed when

(23:47):
he was in the second grade,and so he was in uh very structured
classes as a result of that.And then when he was about thirteen years
old, they changed the diagnosed STASBO, but he continued to be in special
education classes throughout high school. Whatabout his work history, He's only had
one job. He was a SocialSecurity recipient in school by virtue of the

(24:12):
autism, and then he worked ata a pizza parlor and he was the
person that stood outside with sign andhe did that for thirteen months. They
tried to have him work in akitchen, at least that's what he told
me, and he was unsuccessful.He dropped the pizza, so he only

(24:32):
worked part time holding a sign outsideof the store and then ultimately had a
interpersonal conflict with someone inside the restaurant. And afterwards he applied for Social Security
and it was granted when he wastwenty one years old, and so he's
been on disability. Are you awareof any work skills and possesses none.
He doesn't have any work skills.What about his relationship history romantic relationship?

(24:57):
His father told me he had hadone girlfriend. He had a basically one
friend who suffered from an intellectual disability, and he had a sister. His
sister was younger and she suffered fromautism, and Nick formed a relationship with
her, and that was his girlfriendfor a period of months, and they

(25:18):
had a sexual relationship. He toldme that he also had a girlfriend when
he was younger. His father didnot confirm that. So his relationship history
is extremely limited, and I thinkreally the only confirmed romantic relationship he had
was with another person who had allDid you review any records as part of
this evaluation? I did? Whatrecord do you review? You call?

(25:44):
I reviewed some school records. Ireviewed his social Security records from when he
was in high school and when hewas making his application to Social Security,
and then they have to do yearlyupdates on the Social Security to maintain eligibility,
and I reviewed those, and therewas a disability report by doctor Goldstein

(26:10):
in two thousand ten. And thenof course I reviewed the his high school
records, and I reviewed the policereports and the video takes associated with this
case. Did you speak with anybodyin addition to he's oudoring in mystery going
gimmick as part of his day.No, not that I can recall.

(26:30):
And in any games. You metwith you twice? Uh? Was there
anything notable by his appearance when youmet with him? In in your interviews?
His grooming and hygiene has always beenpoor. That's something that was apparent
in the school records. It's never, he's never He's always needed reminders to
shower, brush his hair, andbrush his teeth. And that was evident

(26:51):
when I saw him. He hasa Tennessey letter's beard grow out in an
untrimmed manner. Sometimes lady's hair growout in another trimmed manner. So I
I there were deficits in his groomingand hygiene consistent with his history. Why
is that important to you as apsychologist. It shows a lack of self
care, a lack of self management. I think it's characteristic of It's just

(27:14):
get a change between your two interviews. Not really. He had cut his
hair the time I saw him,and gained a little bit of weight when
I saw him the second time,but it was still evident. Did you
know his mood? I mean?And hells what what you what what you
mean by when you say movie?What? What did you know about his
mood? And what are your that? But he was sad? Both of

(27:37):
the times that I've seen him,it's difficult to as somebody that has autism,
it's hard to assess their mood.They're not very communicative, that's part
of the disorders. They don't connectwith people and they don't describe themselves very
well, and so it's getting awindow into what his internal world is like
is hard, and so UH asbest I could determine, it's kind of

(27:59):
sad, but his emotions are kindof flat, doesn't show a lot of
emotion. He's not real reactive inthat. Now, you've also had an
opportunity to view a video of thepolice interview. Is that correct? I
did? Did you notice anything abouthim in the police interview aside from what
he said, just his appearance,his mood when he was under a lot

(28:21):
of stress at that point in time, I noticed to talk to himself a
lot. When they UH were notin a room with him and he was
left by himself, he talked tohimself, and I thought that was sort
of unusual. And then I didn'tthink his eye contact was very good with
the officers. It wasn't very goodwhen he was with me, and that's
characteristic of autism. Stress. Whatis cognition. It basically refers to the

(28:45):
ability to think and solve problems.It's kind of synonymous with intelligence. What
about reasoning is that that's a relatedterm. Reasoning is the ability to think
through a problem, to come toa situation. There's a problem that needs
to be solved, and your reasoningability reflects your capability to solve that problem

(29:11):
adaptively. You can consider it he'sprognition and reasoning. I'm sorry, did
you consider he's cognition and reasoning whenyou were evaluating him? Absolutely? What
did you conclude? Well, heavean IQ test and he was functioning in
the the low average range altogether.But there's a lot of variability in his

(29:32):
intellectual abilities. In other words,most people's intelligence is fairly consistent across different
areas. There's verbal intelligence, there'sthe ability to work with your hands,
there's memory, and then there's concentration. He had areas where he functioned fairly
well, and then in other areashe functioned in a a fairly poor manner.

(29:56):
And he mentioned you hate using tests. Let's talk about some of these
tests, uh, and I willcome over and down and I'm write down
personality tests. For example, youmentioned a couple of those, tell us,
what what kind of personality tests?How many do you have? You
do? Three? Three? Andthey were the roor Shop, uh huh,

(30:18):
the MNPI second edition revised, therestructured edition and then then I'm sorry
MNPI two r F kay that allthree and the thematic a perception tamatic?
What is that word? A perceptiontest? They call it the TAT but

(30:38):
start with the roller shop. Tellus what the Worshop test is? Well,
the Wororshop is the ink blots.It's been portrayed on television over the
years. Sometimes people make fun ofit. The fact of the matter is
that it's a well validated test that'sbeen around since the nineteen twenties. It's
been administered millions of times, andthere was a new scoring set that was

(31:00):
developed based upon international norms in twentyeleven. And one of the things that
the Worshop test does very well ismeasure reality testing, which is the ability
to perceive your surroundings in an accuratemanner, and that was the main reason
that I administered in It also providesinformation about a person's social understanding, their

(31:22):
understanding of the people, and theability to interact with others in the cooperative
way, and did you come upwith your result as a activist test it
did what was your conclusion or result? His ability to perceive reality as tenuous.
He had a psychotic episode when hewas thirteen years old and hallucinated and

(31:44):
talked about hearing seven or eight differentkinds of voices his mother and the social
Security records talked about impaired reality,testing that he had difficulty perceiving reality accurately.
On the Worshop test, you lookat pictures that were symbol of things
like a bat, and if youlook at a bat and you see something
else, that is an impaired perception. And there was a significant amount of

(32:07):
that, suggesting that his perception ofthe world around him is often inaccurate.
And people usually will have human representationson the test. If you're interested in
humans, you see humans on theyouth thoughts. You didn't see a one,
not a fictional human, not areal human, not a human part,

(32:30):
nothing, no cooperative human movement.And that suggests really deficient social understanding,
deficient understanding of people, a lotof interesting people. Really what about
undika. The UNNPI test is aself report true false test of there's three

(32:52):
hundred and thirty some items they answertrue or false to those. There are
different scales that measure things like depression, anxiety, mania, paranoia, uh,
disturbed thinking. And I had himfill that out. And did you
come to any conclusions as a resultof that test? I did? And

(33:16):
what were those? He reported alot of symptoms. He he was not
functioning very well at the time thatI saw him. He talked about having
uh, some unusual sensory and perceptualexperiences. At that time, he was
experiencing some depression, and he wasalso experiencing some paranoia. And then the

(33:37):
the third test that you said youadministered was a thematic a perception test.
Yeah, and tell us a littlebit about how you do that test.
It's a as I said, it'sa series of pictures that did and ask
them to make up a story witha beginning, a middle, and an
end to correspond with the pictures.And what was the result of that test?
Very primitive, very basic, andconcrete stories with very little understanding of

(34:00):
the motivations of the characters. It'svery uh, very simple. As now
in your UH evaluations and in particularin your evaluation mister Goading on do you
often use proverbs to try to determinea person's thinking? I always do.
Okay, tell us a little bitabout why do you do? Then?

(34:21):
Well, there's a section called themental status examination, and part of that
section is I ask them proverbs tosee if they can think abstractly, and
so things like strike while the ironis hot, a bird in the hand
is worth two in the bush,rome wasn't built in a day, don't
cry over spilled milk? And ifthey can provide an abstract interpretation, they're

(34:44):
higher up the developmental ladder than somebodythat interprets it concretely. And so,
Uh, I did that with Nick. Do you remember which particular saying you've
used with with mister god Young?Can I refer to my report for this
part? Yes? I mean probablyour market isn't is it at? Our

(35:05):
market? Is that? Hanson said? It was fair to do your yestidification.
But so don't read it up.Read it to yourself understood? Can
see it ever refreshes your recogreition?Uh? Thank you got it? Okay,
which which particular proverbs did you usewith Chase? You're go to Johnny?

(35:30):
Don't cry over spilled milk? Rome? Wasn't built in a day and
a burdens hand a word to him. Let's start with the first one,
don't cry over spilt milk? Whatwas his response today? How did he
finish that's that particular proverb or saying? He gave an abstract interpretation for that?
He said, don't cry over asituation that this isn't as big as
it seems. Kay? Did thatcame to anything that was good that showed

(35:54):
some capacity for abstract thought? Ky? And think the next one? You
said, Rome was not built ina day? Yeah, how did you
finish that? Partickler one? Hetold me he didn't know what that meant?
Kay? What did that get?Difficulty with abstract thought? A bird
in hand is worth two in thebush? Is that the next one?

(36:14):
Yes? And what how did yourespond to that? Or how did you
complete that? He couldn't interpret thatone, Ei though he said he didn't
know the last stud Then do youuse hypotheticals? I do in your caffeine?
I do judgment questions. You yougive somebody a hypothetical scenario and ask

(36:36):
them how they would respond to it. And it's a way of getting uh
an idea of their judgment and didyou use any hypotheticals in the eventuation mission?
Go to John, I did,which ones? Did you use?
The first one? I use theseall the time. I uh, I
like them. So the first onewas you're sitting in a crowded movie theater

(36:58):
and you're watching a movie. Theplace is packed, and you're the first
one to see smoke of fire inthe building. Well, wish what should
you do? Why do you askthat? Man? Well, there's a
right answer to it, and there'sa wrong answer to it. And so
if it's it's a way to assessthe judgment. And what was his answer
in the evaluation? Probably yell fireand run out of the building. You

(37:21):
considered that to be the right answer. No, that's the exact thing you
don't wanna do, because if youyell fire, you're gonna create a panic.
You ask you and the other hypeof bagles I did what was that
you're walking beside the lake and yousee a small child playing alone, unsupervised,
out at the end of a piernext to the water. What would
you do? What was his responseto that his judgment was better in that

(37:46):
situation. He said, I'd probablyask them where their parents are and contact
the authorities, I try and findthe parents of the child. Maybe,
and you thought that was a betteranswer. Yeah, that's basically what you're
supposed to do is make sure thatthe child is a not unattended and get
help Doctor Franks. Earlier you mentionedthe IQ test. You administered an IQ

(38:08):
test. What is the name ofthe IQ test? Administ It's called the
Wetsler Adult Intelligence Scale, fourth editionthe West for I'm sorry, why do
you use that one? It's thestandard in the field for evaluating I tell
us a little bit about the testwas brunken up into four components, and

(38:30):
they're each considering an aspect of intelligence. One is called verbal comprehension. Those
are verbal tests vocabulary information. Uh. There's one called similarities that measures abstract
reasoning, and then there's another subscalethat is called perceptual reasoning. Those are

(38:51):
tests that involve visual problems. Oneis putting blocks together to make geometric patterns,
and then the other one is amazedtest. And then there's a working
memory, which is the ability tohold something in memory while you perform an
operation or a manipulation with it.And the last one is called processing speed,

(39:14):
and that's the ability to process novelinformation and novel stimuli, and then
do you have an overall IQ thatyou can turn in from all these Yes,
let's tend to one at a time. I think you mentioned verbal communication.
What what does that tell you asa as a psychologist when you when
you look at that and you canto sploy there. Well, it's the

(39:35):
ability to solve verbally presented problems.So some people are verbal problem solvers,
some are more visual. And ifthey do well on the verbal then that
means that if they hear something,they're going to have a better time solving
it if they score higher on theverbal subject. Did you get score a
raw score is verbal communication? Ididn't. What is that? Rosscre uh

(40:00):
His index score was ninety six.That's based upon a standard score and the
mean would be one hundred, Sohis his verbal comprehension was average. And
if you come up with a percentilethirty nine percent time and tell us what
that means over the world. Wherewhat do you mean by thirty nine percent?
That's where he would rank, withone hundred being the highest. Percentile.

(40:22):
Rank is based upon zero to onehundred, and it's basically your place
in the normative sample of people thathave taken this test. You also mentioned
working memory. Tell us what thatis. Working memory is the ability to
hold something in in memory and performan operation or a manipulation with it.

(40:43):
On this test, it's measured bygiving somebody a string of digits, then
they have to repeat them back toyou in reverse the word, and then
also given some random digits and theyhave to sequence them from lowest dies and
you come up with a score.Yes, what is the low score r
seventy seven? Did you come upwith a percentile where that would rank?

(41:05):
Yes? With that sixth mean ninetyfour percent of the population would have a
higher score than what you're saying.That's correct. What about perceptual reasoning?
What is that? That's the abilityto solve problems visually, sometimes with your
hands, sometimes just visually. Youcome up with a raw score there?
Yes, what was that? Itwas ninety what percent pile? Would that

(41:29):
be? Twenty fifth? What aboutprocessing speed? What is that? Processing
speed is the ability to look atnovel information and reproduce it in some manner
integrated and reproduce it. Kah,did you come up with a raw score?

(41:49):
I did? What's that? Seventyfour? What percent pile? Would
that be fourth? And then ninetysix that I'm madden light percent of the
population would be higher. That's right. You come up with an overall IQ
for this year, gog johnnys Idid, And what's that? Eighty two?
And what percentile would that be?Twelve? Twelve percent? Now let's

(42:13):
talk a little bit about that overallscore. Where are there different categories of
functioning when one has higher or lowerIQ's? The different categories? Yes?
What what are the categories? Well, there's superior, high, average,
average, low, average, borderline, and deficient. And how is one

(42:36):
fitted one of the categories? Itbased on on a his or her score?
Well, it would be generally basedupon the full scale hi Q.
However, when there's so much variabilityor spread in the scores, sometimes the
ver the overall IQ is not themost representative score, cause the person does
really well on some things and poorlyon others. Is that wage you notice

(43:00):
in this case? Yes, alot of variability, a lot of spread
in his scores. M And whatdo that canus? As psychologies? Sometimes
it's you. It's associated with neuropsychologicalimpairment. Autism is considered a brain based
disorder, a neurological disorder. AndI think that this is symptomatic of that.
Working memory and processing speed are sensitiveto neuropsychological impairment. And that was

(43:23):
his corest performance and where he isoveralled ay rank and in terms of the
categories, he would be considered lowaverage, although processing speed and working memory
were border All these court taken together, What did that call you about?
Mister of Generally speaking, his overallIQ is low average. His ability to

(43:45):
comprehend verbal information is within the averagerange. His visual motor problem solving is
in the average range. Is gonnahave difficulty processing information? These memories not
very good, particularly if he hasto remember something and manipulated in some way,
He's gonna struggle with that. Now, tell us what the wide Range

(44:06):
Achievement test is. It's an academicachievement test and measures reading, spelling,
and arithmetic. Would you do thattest with, mister Godejan? I did?
Tell us what categories you're looking atin that test? I administered the
reading, spelling, and math computationsubtemple. Tell us, how do you
score that? When you read?It? Is there as maybe at a

(44:29):
fact? Let's start with reading.Do you achieve a score with mister gode
john reading. Yes, what wasthat score? His standard score was ninety
three based upon a mean of ahundred, So that's average. That's this
site reading ability, the ability towork at a look at a word and
pronounce it correctly. And in whatpercentage the population would that put in you?

(44:51):
Uh? He was at the thirtysecond percent pile. What about spelling?
What'sc did you get there? Hisstandard score was one O two and
perc taught rank of fifty five.Mm what about math? Complication? Math
was significantly lower. It was atthe seventy fifth percentile. I'm sorry,
the seventy fifth standard score and apercentile rank of five be U any neurological

(45:14):
screening? I did? What isneurological screaming? Well, these are processing
tests. There's considered screening tests,and uh, if somebody performs in the
impaired range on them, it providessome evidence that they were suffering from neuropsychological
debt. What was the result ofyour visual greeting? That they were both

(45:37):
considered processing tests, and he performedin the impaired range on both of them.
His processing speed is slow, andthat's the evidence of neuropsychological impairment.
What about simple digit motality? Didyou do that I did? And where
do you find that? He wasb beneath the tenth percentile? His processing
speed is slow. Now you'd talka little bit about having evaluated him.

(46:02):
Did you do all your conclusions aboutmister god John and as it relates to
uh g SM five where he maybe on that? Yes? What do
you do? What did you concludehe has a autism spectrum disorder? Also
administered an autism quoting test uh andhe was positive on that and it supported

(46:29):
the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder.And in my opinion, it was at
the level too. Is that consistentwith his earlier diagnosis? It's consistent with
his school records, the social securityrecords, and an evaluation that was performed
by doctor Goldstein in two thousand ten. Do you have casting that you do

(46:52):
to help determine it? Yeah?The autism? Yes? Yes? And
what kind of casting do you did? What is it called? First of
all, I I use the autismquoting and it's based upon three tests.
The first is an autism questionnaire andit's basic autism questions about primarily social behavior

(47:13):
and collecting behavior. There's a secondtest, that's called the empathy quoting.
People who suffer from autism have deficitsin empathy. It's called the theory of
the mind. They have difficulty understandingother people's points of view, They cannot
put themselves in someone else's shares.The empathy quoting helps measure that. And

(47:35):
then the third is the relatives questionnaire, and iministered that with his dad or
the telephone. Do you use forthese things? Yes? Okay? And
how do you score it? Thefirst with the autism question Well, I
have a spreadsheet and type in thescores. I hadn't fill them out on
the form, and then I enteredthem into the spreadsheet and the computer scored
it. And do you come upwith a score? I did? What's

(48:00):
tell us what the story is andwe'll talk a little bit about that.
On the autism spectrum quoting the AQ, you scored thirty. What did that
mean is it probably didn't mean muchto any of us. Is really really
understand it? But what does itmean to you? Uh, it's in
the high range. Most people withautism spectrum disorders score around thirty two according

(48:22):
to the research. On this scale. He scored at thirty and it would
be considered a high score. He'sendorsing a lot of symptoms of autistic spectrum
disorder. About the empathy quotion havewhat kind of forty you get on that?
He obtained a score of twenty seven? Would that again that was in
the impaired range. He showed significantdeficits in empathy, or the ability to

(48:45):
understand other people and put himself intheir shoes and understand others their emotional perspectives.
Empathy, he's deficient. And therelative questionnaire with with dead shot is
that you be harping another third personor his father? Uh? His father
reported he had a lot of autisticsymptoms, had difficulty forming relationships with peers.

(49:10):
There was some rocking behavior, alittle bit of head banging behavior.
As a kid, he would banghis head against walls while he rocked.
He collected things like rocks, actionfigures, very little peer development while he
was growing up. He never formeda social niche he was solitary. And
the relatives question there was positive forautism spectrum disorder all three overall, what

(49:34):
would be cat carrying about me?Who? As God give that? He
has an autism spectrum disorder and characterizedby severe deficits and social understanding, social
reciprocity, understanding nonverbal cues, understandingemotions, and then in insistence on the
sameness uh inability to venture outside ofhis house, and the collective behaviors that's

(49:57):
characteristic of the disorder. And didyou draw an ultimate conclusion regarding I mean
sort you reason, a degree ofscience, a phytological certainty. What did
you diagnose misorgo genre autism spectrum disorderdouble two? Anything else that you've added
to that? Non anything about support, requiring substantial support with a company intellectual

(50:23):
environment and was that part of yourdiagnosis? Yes? What does that mean?
Requiring substantial support with a company inintellectual apperiment? It's a specifier in
the DSM five. It means thathe requires substantial support in order to be
able to function adequately. He needssupervision, and he needs structure or he

(50:45):
could posed a danger to himself.One thing, judge, can we make
a free record of your mind?Yes? Support, Thank you very much,

(51:07):
good job, and this reparing youmight records the specific I worry you

(51:32):
must not discuss this case among yourselvesor with other user. Permit anyone to
discuss it. If you're hearing youshould not form or express in the opinion
about the case until it's five.MA give it to you to decide.
You're not doing your research or investigationon your own about any battery regarding this
case or anyone involved with the troup. You're not communicate with others about the

(51:54):
case by any means. You're notread, youw or listen to any newspaper,
radio, electronic communication from the internet, or television report of the trial.
It's two forty eight, why wouldyou be, says for about five
after three and we'll come back.And when you talk to about al ride