E13: Dee Dee Blanchard Murder Trial Day 3.4: Dr Robert Denney Clinical Psychologist Testifies

E13: Dee Dee Blanchard Murder Trial Day 3.4: Dr Robert Denney Clinical Psychologist Testifies

Episode Transcript

(00:12):
In your still rested like way.Yes, yes, you kind of asking
any charges in your official US stepLEAs you see them as parry. Do

(00:34):
you have any initial evitation you oryou gudu in times and your mutual rest
or like the vision building or theSensen restaurants presentation of evidence in fashion?
Do you have any rebuble evidents?Did you take calls talking about Denny?
Yes? Or how could they evercame up? I just see different what

(01:04):
this story you're incrodus? Do yousaw this way of a just why you're
about to give you the close nowmoving for you to be the fruitful opens
and nothing intro do So you gotyes, a thank you strategy. Thank
you Patre definitely. Would you takea name for the record and you tell
your last names for foot before RobertL. Denny last name d E and

(01:26):
N E y. How are youimplor I am a private practitioner in the
area of clinical psychology. Can youexplain for just a little bit what psychology
is? Whole psychology is actually quitebroad uh and can include anything from running
rats in mazes to to UH studyinghuman behavior. Clinical psychology is focus more

(01:52):
on human behavior and how to measurethat how to hopefully improve that for people.
You practice any other specific areas ofpsychology, Yes, by practicing two
different specialty areas. One is forensicpsychology and the other is clinical neuropsychology.
Could you tell us a little bitabout what clinical neuropsychology is. Clinical neuropsychology

(02:16):
is the study of brain behave yourrelationships. So, a clinical psychology or
a clinical neuropsychologist is a clinical psychologistthat has advance training in the brain,
neuroanatomy, neuropathology, how the brainfunctions, and how to measure the brain
and evaluate people with brain abnormalities andthings like that, and what about psychology.

(02:45):
Forensic psychology is generally a clinical psychologistwho has some specialized training in the
area of the application of that clinicalpsychology principles to areas of the law,
which can include civil law, personalinjury made or or uh other forms of
law, criminal law of course aswell. Let's see what that mark the

(03:07):
states? Do you at one eightyseven? Kay? Do you recognized states?
Exhibit one eighty seven? Yes?I do? What is it?
That's my city? What is aCD District of Curriculum VT? It's au
resume? Fancy wait for a resume. How many pages is your resume?

(03:28):
Twenty two? Elieve where do themedi states exhibit one eighty seven rediation you
have you received without ejection? Areyou licensed as a psychologist? Yes,
I am where I have a licensedto practice psychology in Missouri. I also
have a practice licensed to practice inthe District of Columbia It's Washington DC.

(03:53):
And then I have a temporary licensedto practice in the state of Alaska.
Do you hold any board certifications?You said you? What are they two
different? For certifications? Number one, I'm Board certified in forensic psychology by
the American Board of Professional Psychology.Happened since nineteen ninety seven. The other

(04:15):
board certification is in the area ofclinical neuropsychology, also by the Board of
American Board of Professional Psychology. I'vebeen Board certified in neuropsychology since two thousand
and three. How is being boardcertified different than being licensed? Well,
a license gives you permission to practice. It means you have the adequate amount

(04:40):
of knowledge and skill to do thepractice. Board certification is a level beyond
that where you've actually put your ownskills, your own work products into the
hands of other experts in the field. Where they review it and evaluate not
only your credentials, your training,but also your actually works samples. And
then they also interview you for likea three hour long panel interview regarding your

(05:08):
understanding, your skills, your knowledgebase, your thinking in regard to diagnostics,
and application of the psychological tests tothe case, things like that,
as well as streeting isisions. Sofor certification validates or verifies your advanced skill
in that specialty area in the eyesof other experts and people. How many

(05:31):
people are Board certified in both clinicaland neuropsychology and forensic psychology. I believe
there are eight, including yourself,including myself. Have you had an opportunity
to testify as an expert before yousay? On how many? Gad well
over one hundred. I've lost count. Once I hit one hundred, I

(05:55):
stopped counting. Would you tell thejury a little bit about your educational background.
Yes, I graduated with a bachelor'sdegree in youth ministry and Biblical Studies
from the Lutheran Bible Institute in Seattle, and then I uh changed my trap
a little bit and obtained a master'sdegree in psychology from the Forest Institute of

(06:17):
Professional Psychology, and then ultimately obtaineda Doctor of Psychology also from the Forest
Institute of Professional Psychology, and Iobtained that in nineteen ninety one. With
regard to your master's degree, didyou graduate with any honors? Uh?
Magnetum lovely. What does that mean? It's a fancy Latin phrase. I
mean you got a pretty good gradepoint? What about your doctor of psychology?

(06:42):
Same with that? Did you servean internship with some kind I did
as part of my a doctoral degreeof one of the requirements it was a
year long full time practice setting undersupervision of licensed psychologists. And that internship
for me from nineteen ninety through nineteenninety one was at the United States Medical

(07:03):
Center for Federal Prisoners here in Springfield. Yes, and Springfield. And during
an internship, was there a forensicquotation? Yes, there were several rotations.
There was an inpatient psychiatric treatment quotation, which was a major. There
was also a major rotation a forensicassessment. That's where we learned how to

(07:25):
perform forensic psychological evaluations for the USdistrict courts under the supervision of a licensed
sports certified forensic psychologist. Then Ialso had rotations in medical surgical parts of
the hospital and substance abuse. Apart of that internship also included outplacement for

(07:46):
me one day a week at theMissouri Rehabilitation Center in Burnham, was a
head injury rehabilitation hospital, and Ialso had part of the year one day
a week at Cox North an adolescentSocials of Use Street. Have you had
the opportunity to teach in the areaof criminal friends of psychology, Yes,

(08:09):
I have. And have you servedas a director of any psychology psychology education
program? Yes, I was.I was a professor at the Forest Institute,
which is a graduate program in criminalpsychology, and I was the director
of the forensic program there for anumber of years, just to sall number,

(08:31):
maybe three to four. Have youserved on a toword on board of
any peer reviewed journal journals? Yes, I have and I do. What
does it mean when a journal oran article is peer reviewed? Well,
the way the system works is UHresearchers, authors do their research and they
write up the papers and then theysubmit it to a scientific journal. The

(08:56):
editor looks at that paper and becideswhether it's appropriate for the journal and whether
it appears to advance our knowledge inthe science, and if they think it's
good, then they send it toUH the editorial board. The editorial board
are people scattered all around the worldwho are experts in the field in that
area, and those individuals can reviewthe research and critique it okay, identifying

(09:20):
whether the methods appropriate, the subjectsare appropriate, are the conclusions and results
appropriate as that all make sense,and are does it fit with our understanding
of science? And they rate thepaper and so peer reviewed journals that have
peer reviewed papers since they have editorialboards that review the submissions and determine whether

(09:43):
it's a good science or and onceit's approved by the editorial board, then
it can be published. Have youpublished papers in the area of forensic psychology.
Yes? Have you published a paperwith regard to autism? Yes?
I am want talk a little bitabout your work history after you left that
internship with the euro prisons and whatdid you do after that? Well,

(10:05):
actually, they hired me immediately atthe end of my internship. I had
left on a Friday as an interncame back on Monday as a staff psychologist
and the role they UH wanted toput me in was as a forensic psychologist,
which I couldn't do exactly. SoI was licensed, and you can't
have to be licensed, but inthe federal system you can be licensed in

(10:26):
any state in the Union, andso I took the examination right away and
became licensed in Arizona. And sofor the first couple of months, I
was practicing in the medical surgical sideof the hospital, but then come January
in nineteen ninety two, I rotatedover to do forensic studies, which I
did full time there for eight years. Could you just briefly describe how it's

(10:48):
different to work in the forensic unitas opposed to the medical surgical area.
Yes, let me if I may. Sure. Uh. First of I'll
explain the US Medical Center. Weall know it's here, but not everybody
understands what happens there. It's abouteleven hundred bed medical surgical psych hospital for

(11:11):
the Federal Bureau presumes male in maypopulation. And in that hospital there's medical
and surgical units. Right A.Sentenced inmates who may be somewhere in the
country that need medical care. They'llbe sent here to Springfield to receive that
medical care. There's also psychiatric treatmentunits there, and so the same thing

(11:33):
for sentence inmates that need psychiatric care. In patient psychiatric care. They're referred
to Springfield for that in patient psychiatriccare. The medical Center also has a
forensic evaluation and this unit is asmaller unit of generally pre trial detainees and

(11:54):
the US district courts from around thecountry and the US territories they out of
defendant where there's mental health concerns orpuserns about competency, dangerousness, what have
you, sanity, various things thatwe developant for the case. The judge
often sends them to the Federal Bureauof Prisons for an evaluation UH to answer

(12:16):
specific questions. And so the evaluationsthat we'd we did at the Medical Center
were court referrals where we answered thosetypes of questions competencies and trial mini state
of the time of the defense,briskly future dangerousness, need for renisi,
metal health hospitalization, and things likethat. How long did you work for

(12:37):
the Bureau of Prisons. I workedwith the Bureau of Prisons, including my
internship twenty one years. And didyou retire from the Bureau of Prisons.
I did at the end of twentyeleven. Did you prepare any sort of
manuals for the Eure of Prisons,Yes, I was one of four psychologists

(12:58):
in the Bureau of Prisons chosen todeveloped the forensic training And the Bureau of
Prisons has multiple medical centers around thecountry, but they also have numerous other
facilities, and many of those otherfacilities have forensic psychologists that duke court studies.

(13:18):
They're called satellite centers, and theywanted us to create a manual that
could be then used for training newemployees and hires for the satellite centers on
how to perform forensic evaluations and alsoto then create some sense of uniformity in
the way that the methods of howthat evaluation is done. And so briefly,

(13:39):
what have you been doing since youretired in two thousand eleven. Well,
things have shifted a little bit hereand there. Prior to me retiring,
I was actually teaching at the ForcedInstitute, so that continued after my
retirement, and then I started ina private practice office in Springfield Neuropsychological Associates,

(14:03):
and I was working there until whileworking there doing my private consulting through
that office, then the Forth Instituteclosed its doors and so I switched my
practice one of my homes with practamusing say, one of my settings over
to citizens of moor of a hospitalinvolved, and so I worked there in

(14:24):
the neurology office and the Missouri MemoryCenter where I awate issues of possible dementia
in neurocognitipairment adults. And then Icontinue with my private consulting, although it's
not through neuroscych associates. I realizedI didn't necessarily need to have an office

(14:45):
like that because my Parunzi neuropsychology consultingis throughout the country. I have cases
in Alaska, Washington, DC,Central Illinois, Texas, Indiana. If
you're on at this time, Irequest that doctor Day be allowed to testify
in the area of forensic psychology andneuropsychology. US built you improved, you

(15:13):
for moved to justify in your workover the past trouple decades. Have you
had an occasion to examine criminal dependencefor the purpose of determining the effect of
mental diseases upon their ability to havethe state of mind required to be guilty
of the crime assent? Can youtell the jury a little bit about that

(15:37):
process, how you go about doingthat. That's a very good question because
it's not necessarily intuitive because what you'retrying to do is figure out a mental
state that was in past in thepast, right, so you can evaluate
somebody now, but that doesn't necessarilyanswer with what was going on back at

(16:00):
a period in time. We callthat a retrospective uh evaluation. So like
for sanity or administrate at the timeof crime, you have to incorporate additional
information that you wouldn't normally do inclinical And I don't know how much detail
you want me to get into.Let me ask you this, So do

(16:21):
you bring up the areas you'll lookat in a certain domains. Well,
that's a really good way to lookat it is to use a model rather
than just zooming in there and evaluatingsomebody and trying to come up with some
opinion. Use a step by stepmethodical model as to how you gather information
and connect it together. And sousing this model, we've got information we

(16:45):
learn that is contemporaneous like right now, today, present time. Okay,
So I would interview the person,so I'd get information from the person about
their current meal status. I wouldalso perform other tests and figure out,
you know, other contemporary things.That's what's all going on for this person
right now, and those two thingswill then guide me to a pretty good

(17:07):
understanding of what the person's frontmental statusis. Okay, so it's like one
row across, Okay, but wehave another row here in the middle of
this mental state at the time ofthe alleged offense or whatever it is.
You're looking at the past and youhave to obviously interview the person ask them

(17:27):
about their mini state at the time, but you also have to review collateral
information, investigative reports, information otherpeople that were present at the time,
maybe that saw the behavior of theperson, and you analyze what that behavior
looks like. And then knowing thatself report and the other information, the

(17:52):
objective information, what actually happened,and combining those two together can lead you
to a clinical decision about what theirmindal state was at like at that time.
Sorry, I'll try to slow down. Then there's another row that's historical.
You talk to the person about theirhistory. You know, how they
grew up, what's there issues werein their lives, if they had no
health conditions or issues or problems before. But then you also look at the

(18:17):
collateral information there too. What arethe records shows, what do the past
hostitialization show when mental illness or mentalproblems manifested themselves in the history of what
did they look like? And sothen combining these two together give you a
pretty good idea or here what theperson's health conditions like historically. Okay,

(18:37):
so now we have three different rows, and we've got self report here,
We've got objective outside information that mightinclude investigating materials or behavior observations at the
past times, things like that,other people observing the person. And then
we've got my clinical conclusions. Andonce you've got all nine of these boxes
filled in, then you can combineneeds two together and figure out what a

(19:00):
ministate was like at the time ofthe defense. And then you've been answered
the question that the court posts,whether it's insanity or whatever. Question is
a retrospective competency or something? Doesthat mean? Since so you have to
combine each of these areas together,and then that guides you into a well
informed, reasonable conclusion about the MillEstate Act. Have you been published with

(19:25):
regard to that model you just described. Yes, I first published that model
two thousand and it's been published againand the mid two thousands, two thousand
twelve, two thousand years sixteen.Have you had the opportunity to examine the
dependent Nicolet's fit of John. Yes, I am. Can you before we
talk about your examination, can youtell the jury a little bit about the

(19:49):
materials that you reviewed before doing thatfirst part of that process? Uh?
I can if I look at mynotes, cause I for a report that
list solve those things. There wereway too many things for me to remember.
Okay, that's page and a halfworth of things listed. When did

(20:15):
just ask you about some things thatyou just you don't really want to go
through to thank you? Did youre review the charges in this case?
Yes? I did in the probablecause statement of course, and did you
were you did you can share youroffice case summary? Yes? I did
in time wine, Yes, inthe interview that a check on chickings with

(20:40):
Chris what or who you were littlebit but have made or spood at all?
They're really not substantive questions to whereyou were reviewing any Did you review
interview so people associated with the case? Yes, I did. I interviewed
one, two, three, orfour crisis uh seven different individuals or in

(21:03):
read reports of interviews of seven differentindividuals with the Green County Sheriff's Office.
Did you review some surveillance videos ofthe dependent. Yes, there were one,
two, three, three surveillance videosthat were Green County related, but
then there were also videos from UHWisconsin to that review as well. Did

(21:27):
you review UH Facebook messages between thedependent and Gypsy Blancher, Yes I did.
Yes, I would, between thedependent and Ali Noble, Beth Destress
or Roy Jones and Caitlin Lake.Yes I did. Do you review UH

(21:48):
the Dependence medical records and disability orreports and the other materials reviewed by doctor
Franks? Yes? I did.Do you have an opportunity to review doctor
Frank's report, Yes I did,and his raw data as well. What
do you mean by raw data?Raw data is the actual, but when

(22:08):
we misster psychological testing, there's actuala protocol or or a paper which goes
with that where we write down answersand we write down scorings and things like
that, and then total those numbersand come to conclusions from that. I
reviewed that. What is who theDiagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders or

(22:30):
PSIM? He explained briefly with thatend. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of
Mental Disorders is a publication by theAmerican Psychiatric Association. It is our diagnostic
manual. It helps us classify differentconditions. It's got the diagnostic criteria,

(22:52):
what is a condition, what isn'tthe condition, Whether there are severities in
that condition, if there is multipleconditions that come together and create another condision,
all of that spelled out in thediagnostic manner, and it's sort of
our our bible. As far asdiagnosis with regard to autism spectrum disorder,
is that amental disease in the DSMS? And can you tell us a little

(23:15):
bit about what autism spect from disorderis in general? Well, autism spectrum
disorder is a really good concept thata person has impaired interactions with the environment
socially mostly, and within that umbrella, there's different characteristics that changed a little

(23:41):
bit over time based upon change inthe sense that the the classification of them
has changed. But it's the conditionitself. As I think you've heard,
is the a a difficulty in socialinteraction that causes problems, you know,
difficulty interacting with other people normally ina social way, but also a tendency

(24:04):
towards repetitive focused type of behaviors thatbecome problematic. And then there's some other
subcategories that other things you have torule out. But basically those two features
to identify something within the autism spectrumdisorders. And then there's sub classifications that

(24:27):
depending on other characteristics of the individualor other characteristics of the individual when they
were a child, I got throughthree years of age and how they behaved
and how they learned that would changethat diagnosis of the bit in marbod at
Golf fall under the umbrella of autismspectrum. And it's a concept, if

(24:48):
I may, that varies from verysevere to very very mild, and even
to where it's so mild. It'snot necessarily considered a quote disorder, right,
it's characteristics of a personality style.But we don't concern ourselves with those
characteristics out here because they don't reallycause significant problems in social or occupational function.

(25:14):
Right, So it's by definition notreally the disorder. But there are
people with those characteristics that they arenot considered autism spectrum disorder. And of
course then there's the very extreme.Can you so it's so hard to pictures
that he help us picture what thoseends of that spectrum look like. Yes,
well, let's zoom to the severeside of the first of all,

(25:36):
where you've got those severe these wathen, you know, will think as like
children who if anybody tries to touchthem or console them or love them,
you know, we care for them, they'll scream, they'll buy a kick,
and would bang their head. They'llreact to the stimuli of s somebody

(26:00):
trying to engage them socially, andwhen you back off and leave them alone
beside of them, and it canbe so severe that they self harm,
will bite chunks the flesh out ofthemselves, they'll bang their head and tremendously
mala out. In the Severest film, on the other extent of this autism

(26:21):
spectrum, or characteristics that aren't pathological, but they're odd. Hey, when
we think of an absoute minded professoror the person who has awkward social interaction
skills, but otherwise they're functioning well, they have some relationships that are good,
and they're able to maintain implication,maybe a stellar career, and so

(26:45):
we just think of them as oddkind of people. And then in somewhere
here there's a line between well,now it's impacting their social or functioning and
causing impairments, causing some job problems, things like that. So now it's
probably the disorder. Okay, butit's a very mild, and then there's
more moderate, and then there's severe. Does that makes sense that so it's

(27:07):
a very broad spectrum. It soundslike how many different levels of classification are
there? Official? Well, officiallybased on DSM, there's three. There's
some research classifications that make that broader, and some of our research research tools,
you know, start measuring people inthe in the non impaired ranges,

(27:30):
right, are those characteristics. Butfor the Diagnostic Statistical man where there's three
basic levels, and historically there wassomething we've already writ there's something called Asperger
syndrome. Yes, so if Iwas previously diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, it
kind of change in the manual?Am I join? No longer is my
condition somehow different? Your condition isexactly the same thing. Okay? The

(27:53):
change in the known placeure just becausewe went from Diagnostic Statistical Manual number four
of and AU five didn't change thecondition at all. It just changed the
way it's labeled. And so Aspergersbeing a very mild form more autism,
it used to be a separate diagnosisbecause the characteristics are uniquely enough different than

(28:17):
regular autism but then in twenty thirteenthey came out with a new manual.
They said, well, we're gonnalump all these together under axism spectrum disorders,
and we'll call them all autism,and we'll level them level one,
level two, and level three.So Aspergers is subsume under the title autism,
but it would be leveled. AndI know we're jumping ahead a little

(28:40):
bit based on your view of thedefendance records. Do you agree with his
historical diagnosis of Asperger syndrome? Yes, I do. In case funny why
that is, well, yes,I can't. And to be fair,
if we we can't just say thatbecause his history started out with autism when

(29:03):
he was younger. Because one ofthe things that would classify a condition as
autism for young children is not onlythe communication problem and the preservative kind of
wrote behaviors, you know, collectingthings, playing with things in an odd
way, repetitive behaviors, but alsodelay in uh language functioning or general cognitive

(29:30):
in function. If the person hadthose delays as well, then it would
be considered autism. If they didnot have the language delays or overwhelming cognitive
delays, then it was considered AspertsOkay, So that's the key difference there.
And back then, when Jigo Jeanwas very young, he there were

(29:52):
indications of delay language functioning at youngages, and so he was diagnosed with
autism. Then once he had reachedhigh school, those areas caught up so
they were no longer relevant, uhto his condition per se and they fell
away. This then changed the classificationover to Aspergers right, changed the diagnoses

(30:15):
to Aspergers right. And we don'tknow exactly why there was that delay.
There could have been a delay thathe'd but he either way, he caught
up and so it was Aspergers andI agree with that diagnosis at the time.
I think it just to talk alittle bit more about his history.
What was his history of the vocationalreiventilation. Well, while he was in

(30:42):
high school, he was in aprogram that included job listments, kay and
uh, so he had needed classes, but then he needed classes and go
to work somewhere as a helper doingsome sort of work type of behavior and
a cafe or something like that.And uh, he did that some and

(31:03):
then after he finished with high school, he was involved with the division of
vocation rehabilitation to UH at least uh, get enrolled there and have them facilitate
a program of vocation for him.In between those events, he also worked
at the pizza place uh for awhile where he was waiting to sign out

(31:30):
and was he approved for a programof schooling with the d Division of Vocational
Rehabilitation. My recollection of reviewing thoserecords is yes, he was. He
wanted to get into computer it thingscomputer science, uh, and they were
really pushing him more into the culinaryarts or the kitchens and things like that.

(31:52):
And uh. Then he finally said, yes, well I'll do that.
Uh. And then in the timeit took before the program he started,
he then called him and said nineand I go. So we've talked
about his h history a little bit, and we've heard a little bit about
his history. I'd like to talknow about his the present. Can you

(32:13):
mention did you have an opportunity toexamine him? I didn't. Can you
talk the jory about that process ingeneral and what that examination consists of.
Sure, I examined him over histhree settings January twenty five, twenty sixth
in February second of twenty seventeen,and uh it was a thorough evaluation that

(32:36):
included up four hours of interviewing himface to face in private, and then
about and left over those three days. Can you describe your interaction with the
dependent in general? Yes, hewas alert and oriented and then knowing you
distressed. He was not upset orfrustrated. He was reasonably pleasant. At

(33:02):
first. He was reserved and rathercool toward me as we As the interview
progressed over a number of hours,and then over a couple of days,
he became more jovial and and morerelaxed in his interaction with me. I
would say his affect was jovial,that is his moody sort of presentation.

(33:25):
It was. It was reasonably friendly. Uh. He had better eye contact
with me than I thought he wasgoing to. It did not seem particularly
abnormal. Meane, he would lookat me and he would look down and
we would talk and he would lookat me. You know, it's UNNEWYK
state somebody right, and it's alsounusual to never look at him. His

(33:45):
eye contact was actually pretty reasonable,was better as better as the time went
on than it was out fronts first, have you seen the days in surveillance
videos at the counter there? Yes? I am, uh, thanks similar
that he makes to the clerk there, Yes, he made it might and
when I was reviewing that it lookedlike he made reasonable like contact, especially

(34:07):
you could tell from that angle.But also the social dynamic between the two
the the woman got encounter and youwere both chuckling at the same issues.
Whether it is all root beer orwhether it's hair or you know, whatever
it was, they would chuckled together. What were your observations about the Great
Hound Bus station? To go tothe thing that I thought was interesting about

(34:28):
the Great Home Bus surveillance video area couple of things. Actually. There
was the one where he came upto the counter to get the ticket edition
and the plan was, you know, he's already had a ticket for the
return. They just needed to addanother seat and use it the counter and
the person uh presumably tells him,O, there's no more seats, okay,
so we gotta be something different,uh, And then he gets a

(34:51):
cash back and they change this andhe purchases the leather ticket. What's striking
to me is that he did notblow up. He did not react angry,
frustrated, or like which is what'ssomething that that would be very common
with somebody with this with autism wouldhave a problem to change, especially last

(35:13):
minute and in a potentially stressful environment. Uh. And he didn't do that.
He responded that flexibly, I thought. Uh. The other thing that
was striking to me was the otherscene where they're waiting in a line to
a ticket person to check the ticketsand idea whoever, and then points points
them to go get on the bus. They waited this line of people.

(35:36):
I don't remember how many it was, but it had to be fifteen to
twenty maybe more people in this line, and you could watch him work in
their way up patiently. They didn'treact negatively with that. They waited patient
got up to the front process thetickets. And then when I thought that
was striking too that he didn't havea negative reaction of being surrounded by people

(35:59):
in that line. Did he tivot? Uh? Social behaviors in that video
of great how that you saw betweenhim and Gypsy that's true. Uh,
he cause you could see where thegout in now the cab and would walk
in and walk it away. Hewould hold the door for her when they
walked by the sidewalk. He waseating, she was following it. It

(36:21):
looked very long. You had theopportunity to watch the interview that depended protected
him a whole one. Yes,I did any observations about his eye contact
with her from the way I lookedat him, and what appeared to me
is if he had reasonable eye contact, give him the stressful way, the
stressful situation. I I didn't seethat as being particularly had more. Oh,

(36:45):
I like to talk about the testingyou did, so, yes,
why do you engage in psychological testing? Well, it's one of the boxes,
right, this is the easy answer. It's another box. The it's
it. It's more objective. Icould talk with somebody say wow, this
person seemed really really sharp, orthis person doesn't seem quite as sharp as

(37:07):
they should be. That's my owninternal sense of where things lie. If
I give objective psychological testing, thenI can see how the person performs,
and I can compare those scores tonorms of the population. I can say,
Okay, not only do I feellike this person is functioning at this

(37:28):
level, but these tests can identifystrengths and weaknesses relative to the normal population
in other areas that are much finerand more detailed than I can pick up
just talking. What if they're doingand some non formal sort of procedures with
them. So I use structure ofobjective tests plus the objective either. As

(37:53):
they're objective, they're not going tobe biased so much by my own sense
of what I think I want tosee in the data. The data are,
what the data are. How doyou choose what tests to get well?
I knew with mister John specifically,I knew that there was a record

(38:15):
with the presumed conclusion that he hadsome condition inside the autism, and so
I went in thinking that might verywell be the case. And if that's
the case, it's important to identifywhat cognitive strengths the person has and cognitive
meatness is the person has, becausethere are differences. Just because you had

(38:37):
this label Unbrella label doesn't mean they'reall the same. And everybody's different.
And I wanted to measure his focusedattention, concentration, speed of mental processing.
I wanted to measure his learning andmemory, how well he learns new
things verbally, how well he learnsthings visually. And then I also wanted
to measure his executive function, thatis, his problem solving, mental flexibility,

(39:01):
abstract reasoning both gable and number AndI wanted to measure some academic functioning
like reading, writing, arithmetic,and of course I wanted to include tests
that would give me IQ scores aswell. Talk about IQ testing a little
bit of through it, I justsort of get that full scale IQ score,

(39:22):
and that's the fee all in all, what your intellectual or functioning is,
or is it work somehow differently wewant it can be the end.
Help y'all in some cases, althoughthat's probably short sighted to consider it that
way, because I, as youknow, somebody with a very high IQ
may have a stellar functional life anddo brilliant things. Or somebody with a

(39:46):
very high IQ maybe still be makingcoffee in the Starbucks. There's more to
it than just ANQ member. Butthat IQ number can be a good summary
of a person's overall cognitive function ifeach of the areas inside that basket of
cognition attention, concentration, learning,memory, HAPs or everything, all those

(40:09):
things are all relatively uniform, okay, because the IQ score is like an
average in a way, it combinesall of this together into one summary indicator.
But if you've got big differences insidethe basket between real good strengths and
really really poor strings poor strengths,with poor weaknesses, then one summary indicator

(40:30):
is not a very good summary ofthat person. And so you have to
look at the strengths and weaknesses andthere's some rules that will guide us as
to what makes a good summary indicatorand what does not. Is it unusual
for someone on the autism spectrum tohave that difference in the different parts of

(40:52):
the IQ tests. Actually, that'sthat's very very common. There's there's uh,
there's repeated research that them's rates thatindividuals in the autism spectrum have striking
strengths and weaknesses, and oftentimes theyfall in the same patterns, which is
what we do expect. For example, with Aspergers, a mild form of

(41:13):
autism, the difficulties are in languagefunction right general, or actually the difficulties
not in language functions so much inautism, the language is delayed, right
in classic autism. In the Asperger'smild form of that their language is strong.
It's their non verbal interaction and thenon verbal problem solving that tends to

(41:34):
be worse. And that comes acrossin the acutest where you'll see a very
strong language index like a verbal comprehensionindex and a very weak speed of mental
processing. For example, where itmeasures how brain how fast the brain processes
information. It's such a common patternthat there's research like even in twenty sixteen

(41:59):
in the journal Autism and uh NeurodevelopmentalDisabilities where it says you should look at
the end asses and acutesting with peoplewith autism spectrum because you're gonna see this
split. That's the way it comesout, and you shouldn't. You should
not rely on the overall i Qsummary because it's not a good indicator new

(42:24):
genuine intelligence, because they'll be veryslow in speed of mental processing and poisonal
almost all of them aren't. That'sjust a common deficit. We've heard a
little bit about where someone would filein terms of percentiles based onbody's text.
Is there something would be helpful toyou to kind of demonstrate to the jury

(42:45):
where the scores fall against norms andare yes, actually, because I've heard
it's quite a bit of talk aboutpercentiles and percentiles are different than percent correct,
it's very there. Any people oftentimesget confused with the nature of percentiles.
So it's all based upon a bellshaped curve. Ay IQ's a bell
shaped curve of our Other cognitive functionslike concentration righting the memory are all a

(43:09):
bell shaped curve, and so wecan see what it looks like to be
in the normal range and and what'sin the abnormally high range in the admormal
range. Let me show you whatI have marked this basic exhibit one eighty
four. Do you recognize that?Yes? I do. Is that something
you think that would assist you explainthis to the jury? Yes? If

(43:35):
in general? What is it?The bell shaped curve with the IQ stores
placed on there? We moved tovegetation good one eighty four as a demonstrative
exhibit. Don't get you through theleader sip. So you would just appily

(43:58):
explain what we're looking at and howit relates. Let you pull that up,
judgment. He's been dancing in thepoints area. Okay, I don't
know how it is, Okay.So this is the bell shaped curve and

(44:24):
the way this works. These areIQ scores along the bottom, okay,
And the height of the curve isas you see frequency in the population.
These are norms. Okay, it'sthe normal population, it's the average population.
It's it's the typical population right forIQ. And this is the way

(44:45):
it comes out year after year.What we have is with IQ scores.
We all know and IQ is average, right, that's the average. What
this is what it means. It'sthe average, it's the most common score,
and and all of the scores clusteraround that score. Okay. And

(45:06):
so then we the professionals have lookedat this is said, okay, well
let's let's try to define what whatis average? What is above average,
or what is below average? Okay? And they basically said, we're going
to classify in broad terms averages withinone standard deviation, okay, without boring

(45:27):
you too much. The standardiation basicallyis the average difference from the mean.
Okay, It's like average of thedifferences. And so one standardiation with an
IQ test in this direction going higheron the scale is up to one fifteen.
Okay. Well, one standardiation goinglower than the mean of one hundred

(45:49):
is eighty five, because the meanthe standardiation in an IQ test is fifteen.
It says, so within this bandof one standard we have sixty eight
percent of the population falls in thatrange. The other was for IQ's sixty
eight percent of the general population.Their IQ falls within one stand aviation either

(46:14):
above or blowing. That's called average. Okay, Now the classifications get sliced
up a little bit different here andthere, and I wanna panel. Actually
that we's seated, there's not aquestion. I'm sorry. I'll ask you
the ones to ask the question.I would ask them you sell it,
just don't talk. I ask himto oriente us to the chart, which

(46:36):
I think he's doing good. Ithink we're over either. Okay, So
for examp, we heard something aboutit like if I were in the sixteenth
percentile, sounds really low. I'mtaking in terms of ninety A AV seventy
C right, where would I beon the bell curve of the sixteenth percentile?
The sixteenth percentile is right here ateighty five was because from nine,

(46:58):
well from one hundred down to eightyfive one standardiation, there's actually thirty four
percent of the population falls in thisrange, and thirty four percent from fifty
percent, which is fifty percent hereright, fifty percent of the population below,
fifty percent of the population above.That brings you down to this line

(47:21):
right here, and this is thesixteen percentile. So if you notice fourteen
percent fall here, two percent fallhere, and a little bitty fraction falls
there. And so basically sixteen percentfalls down here. So I had a
score there was that the sixteen percentile. My score falls right here. I
am. If we're talking IQ,I am as bright as sixteen percent of

(47:45):
the population, or or or asbrighter brighter than sixteen percent of the population.
Plus there's more that is brighter thanI am, but it's still considered
average, be considered low average.Consider scores in the blue areas for the
lap right here. Okay, Uh, these are what would be called well

(48:07):
see here's where I started to say. It depends on the classification system.
Uh, basically this is with IQscores. Typically they they call and I'm
sorry it's confusing, yet I'm gonnaget you just asked what it was,
and he's outside about something else.I ask the lands answer the question,
the prospector ask, not what youwanted to talk about? S system,

(48:30):
you can form the little Can youexplain what the blue area mean? Yes,
the classification for this area includes uh, below average and borderline classifications.
Tell else, what do you meanby that? Who? How are those
two things different? Below average andmore? Well, some classifications overlap on

(48:53):
this line. They call it alow average. This area here they the
classically called borderline, it's not trulyimpaired, but it's well below to And
where would something consistent with that intellectualdisability at all? Intellectual disability or what

(49:15):
was formerly known as mental retardation classicallyan IQ of seven years below, although
there's some flexibility around. You hadthe opportunity to listen to doctor practice estimate
presently you might put did you eyvinify any issues with his analysis of u

(49:37):
IQ scoring? He relied on thefull scale i Q summary indicator when you
really should not have Can you explainwhat you mean by that? Yes,
there's clear guidance that when we interpretIQ testing that we look at the amount
of scattered in the indexes under kneethe test, the verbal comprehension index or

(50:02):
sexual reasoning index, working memory processingspeed, things like that, and if
there's too much deviation to which variabilityin those scores, then this is not
a good summary indicator. There's anothersummary indicator you should use instead, which
gives us a better overall assessment ofwhat this person's intellectual abilities. And what

(50:23):
is that measure? The General abilityIndex? Can you explain what that is?
Yes, it's it's a measure ofintelligence, but without the speed of
mental processing or what's called working memoryend and so it gives you a more

(50:44):
robust picture of the balance between visualthinking skills and verbal thinking skills, and
it combines those two without the effectof the very slow processing speed, and
it gives you a better sense ofwhat the IQ should be. But for

(51:08):
that very slow processes. Did yourescore doctor Frank's scoring on the IQ tests,
yes, I did. Did youfind any error? I did?
Did you? And did you arriveat different composite scores or yes? There
were multiple errors in his scoring thatchanged the IQ scores the NDS scores a

(51:32):
little bit. His original you wantit basically changed the verbal comprehension index,
raised it from a ninety six toa one hundred, and then it changed
the full scale IQ from an eightytwo to an eighty four. It didn't

(51:53):
change the descriptive nature of those measures, So did it? No, eighty
two and eighty four are both inthe low average range, and ninety six
and one hundred or both in averagerange. There by one hundred and where
what range his perceptural reasoning index sawit? His perceptual reasoning Index UH was

(52:17):
ninety and the score changes I diddidn't change that number, so it was
still ninety which is right up therein the average. And when you computed
his general ability index base on doctorFrank scoring, what what did that show
you? The general ability index wasa ninety five, right beneath any average

(52:38):
range. So what does that mean? That means if you don't consider the
speed a mental processing which is affectedby motor speed, and you just think
about what the person's conceptual intelligence islike, problem solving, planning, organizing,

(52:59):
understanding the world, word definitions,things like that. If you just
look at that, that score tellsus what is general thinking skills are like,
not including the slow motor speed.And with that general ability index of
ninety five, it falls in theart. Yes, it falls. You

(53:22):
also administered an IQ test, isn'tit the same test? You said it?
And did you obtain some different scores? Yes, the scores I obtained
were statistically significantly lower than the scoresobtained by occupacts. What do you mean
by that? Well, I haveto say statistically significantly different because these scores

(53:46):
are not perfect. Right, there'serror in that. All of our tests
have an error, but we knowwhat that error is and we know how
often a score. Let's say,let's say we obtained a uh uh a
general ability index of ninety five.Okay, our score is ninety five,

(54:06):
but what's the true score that nobodyreally knows? Kay, Well, it's
somewhere around ninety five, and wecould statistically identify how how accurate this ninety
five is? Okay, So thismy bottom line is there? Is it?
It? They fluctuate a little bitbecause of error? Well, I
had to know whether the difference betweendoctor Frank's testing and my lower scores when

(54:27):
I tested him were just because ofchance error, because the scores fluctuated a
little bit, And so I ranthe publishers scoring the program to identify whether
those scores were just a part ofrandom variation or whether they were statistically significantly
different. And they were statistically lowerthan initiative given doctor Frank's testing. So

(54:51):
did you go back and try todetermine what might account for that? And
the test me? I did.I went back and looked at the items
that that he that were different betweendoctor Frank's testing and my mind testing.
When the IDIAM was the same,but his answers were different. Like on
some some questions, he he knewthe right answer when doctor Franks asked him

(55:13):
that question. But when I askedhim that very same question later, he
said he didn't know this, andso that coust him had a little store
and for example, one of themwould have been something like, you know,
this is not an actual item,but it's something just like on the
Adams what's the name of the royaltyin France that lost her head for that

(55:38):
person's name? And so that's itwas that kind of question that he knew
the answer to them, but hedidn't. So what was the full scale
KEE? And you came up withit in your tu The full scale IQ
I came that that he achieved whenI tested him was seventy seven. And
where would that fall in terms ofYeah, seventy seven would fall right by

(56:00):
out here and that would be consideredborderlineage. And what about the general ability
index when you considered that in yourtest? Uh, that that was in
eighty one. So my general abilityindex came out at eighty one, which
is right in here, which isin the the the below average, low

(56:22):
average, below average, not quiteborderline zone. There, did you diagnosing
with an intellectrial disability? Nope,kindly not, because his scores don't support
an intellectial disability. Even the IQof seventy seven does not support an etelectual
disability is too high. What othertype of testing did you do? I

(56:45):
did a broad array of neuropsychological testing, UH, where I went beyond just
the IQ cluster of tests I hadmeasured UH, a broader perspective of this
attention concentration, learning, memory ofastract reasoning and judgment problem solving. And
so can you tell us a littlebit about what those tests tell you about

(57:09):
his reasoning and decision making a building? Yes? I can, if I
may refer to my nose, ah, because I don't wanna incorrectly record it
recorded that that that testing that Igave was called the Neuropsychological Assessment Battery batteries,

(57:34):
a fancy word for a cluster oftests. Okay, So the NAB
for use of use, and there'sdifferent modules inside the NAB that measure different
things. Did you ask me whatthe scores were or how you would I'd
like to just tell us what thosetests told you. For example, you

(57:55):
were here when doctor Franks hold athat is diagnosed with typicalty with any cognitive
decision making or or reasoning to order? What what do those tests you gave
your show in that regard the testsI gave in that regard to measure uh

(58:15):
reasoning and such. Again, wecan slice up reasoning many different ways.
There's attension and concentration. Well,there's an attention index. Well, first
of all, the overall battery,the NAB battery has a summary indicator that
it can be used. And thatsummary indicator there came out at eighty seven,
so that would have fall fallen rightabout here in the low average range.

(58:39):
And then inside the battery there aremodules, five of them. The
attention module measures of focused attention andspeed of mint processing. And that index
UH standard score was sixty six.Okay, way down there. That's pretty

(59:00):
impaired, but it includes the speedamnal processing and attention. And then then
there's the language index language skills,comprehensive language, expressive language, things like
that, and his score was onehundred and ten to eleven. Okay,
that's up here, so that's clearlya strength to him. There's verbal skills,

(59:23):
verbal comprehension, verbal understanding, communica. Then on the memory index,
which measures learning and memory and theability to retain new information both visually and
verbally. The overall index. Therewas ninety one, which we can see
with you right right to hear somewhereninety one, and the percentile there would

(59:45):
have been the twenty seventh centime,which is an average low average range.
And then spatial index another module spatialreasoning, spatial processing as opposed to language,
you know, nonverbal sort of reasoning. That came out of eighty seven,

(01:00:07):
which is in the low average rangeas well. And then the executive
functions. The last module is calledexecutive function which measures verbal and non verbal
problem solving, judgment, uh,abstract reasoning, things like that. And
his score was ninety seven with apercentile ranking of forty two, which you

(01:00:30):
know is right up here. It'sin the average rank. You've heard doctor
Franks referred to a couple of judgmentquestions that he asked it. But then
that you just mentioned the judgment aspart of this battery of tests you gave.
Is there a specific section on thatThere is actually inside the executive module,

(01:00:50):
there's a subtest called judgment and itis a verbal reasoning problem solving the
type of subtest and how do youdo in that uptest? Let me if
the score of that real quick hisjudgment score came out at the ninety seventh

(01:01:12):
percentile. And actually, with theway these subtests are classified, it's a
little different. I need to explainthat, Okay, find me sure.
We talked about IQ scores for themean at one hundred and standidation of fifteen.
Well, sorry, but the NABbat or even be seated that,

(01:01:34):
I'm sorry enough, like true,But the NAB boundary doesn't classify the scores
based upon this IQ metry. Ituses a different scale called T scores.
And with a T score, thenthe average is fifty, okay, and
the standardas is ten. Okay.So now, uh so the mean for

(01:01:59):
a T score or would be righthere, but instead of calling it one
hundred, it would call it fifty, and this would be sixty, seventy
and eighty, and then this wouldbe forty thirty. So but it's the
same curve, it's just as adifferent scale on it. And so his
result on the judgment subtest was aT score of sixty nine, which is

(01:02:20):
almost two standard deviations above me whichwould be one two is right here.
It was better than and New presentsa ranking was ninety seven percent. It
was better than the judgment of ninetyseven percent of the average populations. HM,
app sie, what have Marcia's spaceecided? What eighty six? Do

(01:02:44):
you recognize that? Yes? Ido? What is it? Uh?
This is the actual UH testing protocolfrom the judgment subtest and so does it
contain UH questions and the answers?The A on that yes, it's got
the questions and my by writing ofhis answers, who admit takes to do
the way to it says, II just breathe and solid that they don't

(01:03:07):
know anything. You need to read? Who way you take a look at
that? You take your time?You don't have food? I had no
catching that? Or did you seewhat those? Could you plase to read
your questions? And any answers tothe kind of game? Okay? All

(01:03:35):
of'em? Yes? Okay?Uh. The first one is uh,
why should you blow out the candlesbefore going to dead? His answer was
because you don't want to start fire. Each of these questions is scored based
upon zero, one or two exceptthe first one, which is just a

(01:04:00):
one point score and that's a rightstore. The next one, why should
you not leave a young child aloneat home? Is answered because they might
get into some things that are hazardousto their health. And then at that
point, since it was a vagueresponse, I was supposed to question it,
and so I have a question heresaying what do you mean by tell

(01:04:24):
me more about it? And thenhe said, they can't have or they
can't fend for themselves, so theymay start. That's the two point response
again. Number three, why shouldyou replace the batteries and a smoke detector
rightular? His response, so youcan rely on the smoke detector when there

(01:04:47):
is a fire, so you don'thave to worry about the detector being dead
because it could also be you thatis dead because of it awkward, but
it's got bec content. That isa two point response. Next question,
what should you do if you taketoo much of a prescription medication? Is

(01:05:09):
answered? Call poison Control center andlet them know your situation. Is an
immediate response and a two point responsebecause it's the appropriate thing to do.
Number five, why should you notunplug electrical appliances while your hand is response?

(01:05:29):
Because you can get zapped because wateris a conductor of electricity and it
increases the chance of you getting yoursapped two point response. Number six why
are certain foods marked with an expiration? His response? So the customer knows
when to lead the product with sorry, my writing's not good. Lead the

(01:05:56):
products with an old expiration to geta product with a newer expiration date so
you don't get sick. The conceptthere is that the expiration date helps inform
us as to whether the food mightbe good or whether we would become built,
which is a two pointless one.Next one seven, why is it

(01:06:18):
important for people to brush their teeth? His response, to keep your teeth
as clean as possible, and tokeep your guns as healthy as possible.
That answer addressed two issues, thehygiene and the giving away disease and freshness
of breath type of issues is thatyou want Number eight, Why is it

(01:06:41):
important to tell your doctor all themedications that you were taking? His response?
You should tell your doctor because therecould be serious side effects that would
cause serious life changes, and hecould give you an alternative rap or medication
that could improve it. To numbernine, why should you wash your hands

(01:07:04):
before eating? This response because itis good hygiene and it keeps you from
spreading any diseases onto the food addressesnot only the hygiene issue, but also
the transfer of germs to one response. Number ten. The last one What
does it mean when your doctor saysthat there is a twenty five percent chance

(01:07:28):
of having a serious side effects froma treatment. His response, I'm sorry,
I can't read the first word thatI wrote. You should put that
twenty five percent chance into perspective ofwhether or not that medication is good for

(01:07:54):
you over another medication. It meansit has a twenty five percent chance of
having life changing side of things.That's not a perfect answer. It's a
one point answer. It splitting thedifferences of one point rad Did you find
it defend the intellectually impaired? Idid not. Why not all of his

(01:08:15):
scores uh? Even his historical likehe scores, Uh, some of them
are low. Yes, But evengoing back to his childhood scores in the
record, none of them fell inthe range of intellectual physibility. The fact
is the objective did it does notsupport intellectual enhairment, as the photo John
does not have intellectual discipline. We'vespoken briefly about how it's common for individuals

(01:08:43):
who draw on the autism spectrum tohave those higher scores in the reasoning part
of the IT task, put thes lower scores in the processing speed.
Are you familiar with any studies thatthat looked at the autism but population with
regard to their intuitive versus methodical decisionmaking. Yes, actually there is research

(01:09:11):
you combine, well, you combinethe speed of mental processing in with methodical
which goes together, because when somebody'smethodical about their decision making, the speed
amntal processing slows. And there's twopapers that come to mind, both of
them published in the Journal of Autismand neuro Developmental Disabilities. One showing that
on IQ tests the speed of mentalprocessing is very low, and so it's

(01:09:35):
telling you do not use the regularIQ score because you should because it gives
you wrong results because of them.The other paper, I think it was
twenty sixteen, we actually measured autismspectrum to construct, you know, using
the same instrument actually that I usedin the Doctor Franks used the autism the

(01:09:56):
Adult Autism Scale. The Autism COis a subscale in that, and they
gave it to lots of different peopleand then measured their level of autistic thinking
using that scale and also their abilityto reason and the way they reason with

(01:10:17):
another scale. Now, this scalemeasures methodical, deliberate, step by step
type of reasoning, but it alsomeasures intuitive snap judgment kind of reasoning.
They're different. And they found inthis research that as the autism as the

(01:10:38):
level of autistics thinking that in theperson increases, the more they have methodical
step by step thinking and the lessthey have intuitive snap judgment. It's fascinating.
Reason does that deal with that awkwardnessand social settings? Where if I

(01:11:00):
had autism and not not how toreact to things that present themselves right to
me as opposed, if I havemore time to think about it, I
can make a better decision. Yes, yeah, And when there's no time
uh limits, For example, whereI'm asking you these questions, I like,
there was no particular time limit,it wasn't under the gun times he

(01:11:21):
could think through the and give mean answer. That's deliberate, methodical type
of reasoning, uh, which isvery different than an A an A an
impulsive intuitive I gotta have an answerright now. People with autism spectrum traits
are not very good at the spontaneousclick change type decision, but they're actually

(01:11:45):
reasonably good with methodical step I setthink, did you reach a guy you
know? Sis? Of regard tothe defendant, you said, what was
it? Uh? Autism, UHspectrum disorder or level one, I should
say, and also because his UHreading level is not up to what I

(01:12:08):
think it probably should be and hismath skills aren't quite what they ought to
be. I diagnosed specific learning disabilityUH for meeting and specific learning disability.
And does the do he assume usan AX specific examples? UH? What
a level one to impree could looky? Yes, there were? Do you

(01:12:31):
think that it's just you in explainingyour diagnosis to the journey? Yes,
it would certainly the level part doyou recognize states it to the LOUTE eighty
five? Yes, it is thatthat chart from the USUM that explains the
levels. Yes, this is acopy right out of the diagnostic manual when

(01:12:53):
that talks about how to rate theseverity of asismspection resort? Who didness takes
to do at one eighty five?Of emotion if exhibit objection? So that's
what the chart looks like there.Correct. If you said objection, I
said no objection. Oh I thinkyou said objection of the wady started doing.

(01:13:14):
That's the chart. It's entirety andit's kind of small, and so
at the bottom is level one?Correct? Yes? And as I look
at that at the three levels,all three levels require some support. Correct,
Yes, because that's the nature ofthe diagnosis, right. If the
person didn't require some level of support, they wouldn't have a diagnosis. They

(01:13:34):
would just be corporate. Okay,that's this group out here that doesn't have
impairment at some level and needs somesupport that would meet the diagnosis autism stuff.
And if it's definitely not level threecorrect, correct, that's the most
severe. So if you look atlevels one and two, in addition to

(01:13:59):
talking about what the efforts, itgives us an example. Correct. Yes,
the very levels on the left,and then the social communication examples are
in the middle, and then they'rerestrictive repetitive behavior kind of examples are on
the right. So level two isdescribe, for example, as a person
who speaks in simple sentences but whoseinteraction is limited to narrow special interests.

(01:14:23):
What does what does that mean toyou? Narrow special interests? Well,
that's when they do speak in simplesentences, it's almost always on their area
of interest. Let's say somebody whowas really focused on collecting baseball cars.
That's their being interest. Right.They can talk to you in simple sentences,

(01:14:45):
but it's always going to come backto their baseball cards, because that's
what they're really really interested in.So these simple sentences that always slide back
into their narrow area of special interest. And what about who has marketing?
Odd? Non verbal communication? Whatdoes that mean to you? Okay?
That's the other aspect of their communication. The non verbal is is odd.

(01:15:10):
But it's not just odd. It'smarkedly odd. Okay, that's the term
there, because it's more than justodd. It's gotta be a lot of
odd. Okay in their non verbalinteraction? Does that describe the defendant?
Does this appeared that example for numbertwo level two? I don't think so,
because the person speaks in simple sentencesand always goes back to their narrow

(01:15:33):
focus of interest, which is notmy perspective, mister Roche. So with
regard to level one, it describesa person who's able to speak in full
sentences, engage in communication, butwho's to in pro conversation with others.
Fales, What does that park mein that to re pro conversation with others,

(01:15:54):
Fales? It's it's the dynamic ofconversation, which we all know is
a give and take. Person speaksa little bit and then they rest and
next person speaks a little bit andrests, and it's a dynamic process in
it, and we can feel itwhen it's going right and we're talking to
somebody, And if somebody doesn't workwith you there and it becomes disjointed and
awkward, it's difficult to communicate withsomebody like that, miss, as it

(01:16:17):
was talking abouts engaging in communication,whose to and fro conversation fails and disrupt
and whose attempts to make friends areodd or typically unsuccessful. Yeah, So
which of those two more accurately describesthe dependent in your opinion? In my
professional opinion, the box here examplethrough level one is more accurate reflection,

(01:16:42):
mister Gojon, based upon the availableinformation I reviews. And we talk about
the history part of the model.Yeah, it's talked about the present part
of the model, looking at thetesting and diagnoe and interaction with the defendant

(01:17:02):
by you by modeling. I'm sorryif I may asked, you mean the
model of how to determine a middlestate in the past, Yes, okay,
yes, thank you. So wetalk about history with regard to that,
yes, And we've talked about thepresent, which is your evaluation of
the defendant, meeting with him,talking to him testing him. That's correct
in your diagnosis correct, yes,which leads to the time of offense department.

(01:17:30):
So in your training and experience,if you're looking at that time before
and at the time of the offense, what would be important to look at
to determine what a person was thinkingat that retrospective time. Well, the
model has two columns there. Oneis self report, and so it's important

(01:17:55):
for me to talk to the personabout their perceptions of what happened and what
they were thinking at the time.Granted that self report, it may be
accurate or may not be accurate,because I also have to look at this
column, which is the other collateralsources of information that relate to that specific
period of time. And it maybe interviews of people that were there,

(01:18:23):
It may be investigating materials. Itmay be the defendant's own writings at the
time, maybe a journal or areletters or or electronic letters, text messages,
things like that. Good, that'sat the moment in time, and
it's objective about to thinking at thattime. So I take what the person

(01:18:46):
tells me, I take this otherobjective information, and I look at that
and how well does it fit Ifit fits in the bigger picture and it
all makes sense, and then Ican come to a conclude usion about his
mental state at the time, whetherthere's indication of psychosis or delusions or or

(01:19:08):
brain injury, kind of problems orcognit problems or have you. And then
once I have these lass from pastpresent and a specific period of time,
say at the time of the thosedefense, Once I know all of that,
then I can answer the question ofthe court. And so would that
include looking at things like perhaps aperson pulld a psychologist to ask them what

(01:19:30):
they were thinking at the time,Yes, if it was relatively close to
that period of time. Yes,Facebook messages a person may have sent leading
up to or at the time ofthe event. Exactly, I would look
at that web searches someone may havemade leading up to or around the time
of the event. Yes, thatcan be insultime you can't use or any

(01:19:54):
fact that afternoon or so. Wouldit be important to look at the kinds
of things the person was doing andsaying added near the time of the fence
and coming up with that retrospective.Well, it's not only important, it's
absolutely critical. If you don't dothat, you won't get a good understanding

(01:20:15):
of the person's thinking was at thetime. You'll get maybe what they told
you, and you can, asa psychologist spend a lot of psychological theory
about trying to explain that. Butif you don't look at this stuff and
you're not gonna understand what was reallygoing on at the time, Yes,
it's bidely important. No fother questionsand you tell us something about answer the

(01:20:45):
folks, I'm trying to hopefully getthrough. What would the different things for
the night? Is there another movingin your used for thereas you would look
over there OFE think they could doanother? Or thirty year, thirty five
minutes? Is there anyone who reallydoesn't feel like they are the ones to

(01:21:11):
man? You don't think you anyface? Oh sorry, now that would
be good time to tell me.Is anyone need break for five minutes just
to stretch? Or five weeks?Okay, let's take a break for a
couple of minutes with something else todo. I have to provide the rights.

(01:21:32):
That's always decided that I should justtax you up like that. The
subject record again reminds you of whatyou were told it the first recess of
recording until you're retired to consider yourwork. You must not discuss the case
of one your sells or another,or permit anyone to discuss any You're here
cause you're not more more expressive youdo. You're not the case things soil

(01:21:54):
It is five bigger the gen youdecide. Do you not do any research
or investigation or on you're an aboutanybody regarding this case or anyone involved with
the tron? Do you not communicatewith others about the case by any meanings?
Not be Do you want to listento any goose peas in medio electronic
communication to minnet which you'll listen forthe tron? U? U? Good?

(01:22:20):
Rise up? Five? Good doctor? You can step out and walk
stretcher or don't seem you just don't, sir when you get down her down?
Yeah, all right, that's aboutabout him for something. Does you

(01:22:50):
good about the means invest year?Are you good? Do you give me
a tack? You can't have anygame by himself making be worter? Yeah,

(01:23:10):
I would not, I should probablys