April 14, 2025 • 13 mins
Mike Drucker's Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/mikedrucker.bsky.social
Here's a teaser of the very first FunFactor ULTRA bonus episode!
It's our exclusive interview with Mike Drucker--the author of "Good Game, No Rematch: A Life Made of Video Games." We talk about the book, Mike's life as a gamer and writer for some of the most prestigious shows in TV (including Saturday Night Live, The Tonight Show, Full Frontal, and Bill Nye Saves the World), and what it even means to be a critic or commentator who writes out their words.
If you like what you hear, go to FunFactorPod.com and become a member to hear the full version (and another bonus episode every month, plus get access to the members-only ULTRA Lounge channels of our Discord)!
-----
Sources include the Internet Archive, Retromags.com, our original research, and our personal magazine collections.
The FunFactor theme, and all other original songs, are composed and performed by Millennium Falck. Check out his work at millenniumfalck.com!
Here's a teaser of the very first FunFactor ULTRA bonus episode!
It's our exclusive interview with Mike Drucker--the author of "Good Game, No Rematch: A Life Made of Video Games." We talk about the book, Mike's life as a gamer and writer for some of the most prestigious shows in TV (including Saturday Night Live, The Tonight Show, Full Frontal, and Bill Nye Saves the World), and what it even means to be a critic or commentator who writes out their words.
If you like what you hear, go to FunFactorPod.com and become a member to hear the full version (and another bonus episode every month, plus get access to the members-only ULTRA Lounge channels of our Discord)!
-----
Sources include the Internet Archive, Retromags.com, our original research, and our personal magazine collections.
The FunFactor theme, and all other original songs, are composed and performed by Millennium Falck. Check out his work at millenniumfalck.com!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, this is Ty. I just wanted to give you
all a little taste of our very first fun Factor
Bonus episode. If you aren't a member of fun Factor Ultra,
please sign up, support us financially, give us a chance
to make it worth your while, and I promise you'll
get a conversation as cool as this with Mike Drucker,
one of the funniest people in gaming. Every single month.
(00:23):
You also get access to the swanky members only area
of our Discord server. All with your membership. Please go
to Funfactor pod dot com sign up, and you have
just a few more days once this goes up, because
at the end of the week, the twenty percent off
sale will expire, our launch window will expire, and you'll
be stuck paying full price like a rube. So if
(00:45):
you like what you hear, go to Funfactor pod dot
com sign up to become a member and hear the
rest of this conversation with Mike Drucker. Outcome. Games aren't funny, Mike, like,
(01:10):
how come it's so hard? As someone who you know
people talk. If you get into any level of writing,
you hear comedy writing is hard. You here, stand up
is hard?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Right?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
TV writing is really intense, and you've done all of
those things that literally the highest possible levels, and you've
written for games as well. It feels like writing comedy
for games is so hard. Like some games have like
some funny moments or like a lighthearted tone. You know,
you can play like two hundred hours of Zelda and
there's like three little hajas in there, you know, But
(01:42):
it seems like games that try to be funny games
are like at best hit and miss. Can you give
us any insight into why this is such a hard
emotion to get to?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I mean sure, I mean I think one thing that
probably didn't help is, for a long time, including now,
a lot of video game writing is not done by writers.
It's done by a designer who might be thinking of
its secondary. It might be, you know, we're cutting characters
and adding characters. We are you know, throwing out an
(02:14):
entire plot line, you know, for and I've not mean
this in a negative way, but for some games it's
almost like I mean it is, the game comes first,
almost like a theme park ride. Might you might add
the story on top of the theme park ride, but
that's not what makes the theme park ride exciting. And
so I think like that is one not problem, but
reason up front. I do think they're getting better about it.
(02:36):
Like if you look at games like thank Goodness You're here.
That game is amazingly funny, and it's funny because all
of the interactions in the game have a funny response,
you know, like if you're the game, if you haven't
played it, play it. You can beat it in two
or three hours. It's not expensive. You go around a
British town slapping things, and it's so surprising and everything
(02:57):
you're doing makes sense within the context of the game,
which makes it funnier. I think a lot of games
fall into this problem of you know what, I think
comedy is a character saying a random one line, which
it can be, but when you have every character sounding
the exact same saying things like that just happened, it
starts to wear thin and you're not really making comedy.
You're having people commenting on the situation, which people in
(03:20):
real life do, but they don't do it for every
other line, or they don't do it because they're a sassy,
you know, best friend of someone who's the real person
in this situation. And I think that's what you kind
of run into, Like I once did a seminar for
a game company for a game that I don't think
they listened to me about, and it didn't perform well.
(03:43):
But you know, the thing that I kind of tried
to explaining was, like it, from what you've shown me,
all of these characters have the same what in comedy
is called a game, which I know is confusing, but
a game in comedy is sort of like what your
character keeps going back to what they keep doing. You know,
they are they so selfish that any situation they make
it about themselves in some way? Are they you know,
(04:04):
like you know, are they so literal that they take
everything you say literally? And those you know, little ways
of those little personality turns really develop a character and
really give you room for being funny. Whereas when you
make everyone just shout one liners, you can tell that
this is an artificial thing that's been shoved into place.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
And I think a lot of people also don't realize
that a lot of comedy and games comes out of
the moment to moment stuff like if you look at
Grand Theft Auto, yes it's there. There's jokes written for
the radio stations, and there's funny scenes but a lot
of the comedy comes from something unexpected happening, which is
a lot of what comedy is is you doing something
normal and then something unexpected subverting that. So I think
(04:47):
it's a problem of one it's not always written by
people who know how to write comedy. Two it's kind
of an afterthought, and three a lot of the times
people aren't really like making the jokes mesh with the action,
so the action just takes precedent over it no matter what.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And I actually
while you were talking, I looked at him that I
do remember getting a personal wreck for thank goodness you're here,
and then.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Probably from me, yeah, I was. I didn't stop talking
about it over a week on Blue Sky because it
just like, it's great. I've never experienced anything like it.
It's insane.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
I think it might be the funniest game.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And like Mike says, it just surprises you every time.
And it has this loop where you go through the
same town over and over and over again. And so
you get through the town and you're like, oh, I'm
back at the beginning, like okay, but then you go
through the loop again and you're like, oh, everything's changed.
What happened, you know, like I made this action the
first time around, and then I did the second time
around something completely different happened that was somehow like weirder
(05:47):
than the first time around. And then you get to
this chapter called Milkshye No More and you're just like
everything is just like off the table at that point,
Like you you hit Milkshye No More has this cow
doing some some things, and you just realize at that
point you're like, oh, Okay, this game is gonna do
whatever it wants. And at that point you're like, I
(06:09):
don't I could not predict what's gonna happen next. And
it just gets funnier from there and it's just it's fabulous,
So yes, please go play it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
And all the jokes tie into the game, like they
all the points that you laugh or you're like, I
did not expect that to happen when I did that.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And that is great, and like it builds on itself.
So like the joke at first is there's this couple
their neighbors and they're fighting over their garbage bins. And
as you go like further through the game and you
loop through a few times, they're fighting about the garbage bins,
and then all of a sudden they're like in the
garbage bin together, and then it turns into the sort
of like you know, like Enemies the lovers sort of
thing with these two people fighting over their garbage cans,
(06:48):
and it just builds in the builds and rewards you
for exploring through and not just like be lining because
you know where you're going or whatever. It's good stuff.
Comedy has always sort of been a part of games media,
and we talked about that earlier, like it was one
of the only places where you know, like the magazines
(07:09):
weren't really taking themselves too seriously. Do you guys think
that this has shaped the perception of games like at
the time, but maybe also continues to play a role
in the way that games are perceived against other you know,
consumption media like movies or books or music.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I mean definitely, I think you know, you know, I
think one of probably the most negative things that video
game media from our childhood probably did was you know,
really like we've said, make it a boys media. Now
that was already in the marketing, that was already in
the advertising. But it doesn't help that, you know, those
(07:49):
magazines spent fifteen twenty years talking about booth baits, you know,
you know, when we would have to have an entire
section about the hottest women at a gaming convention, you know,
who are standing there as probably the worst smelling people
on earth, were like, so what are you doing after
like you know it? And I think that you know
was both negative for us and how we perceive things,
(08:11):
but also it didn't help this perception that this was,
you know, a big toy for big boys versus.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
An artful In the most recent episode that we were
launched today, we look at game Player's review of Chrono Trigger.
So game Players was, you know, one of the biggest
magazines Chrono Trigger one of the biggest, best reviewed, most
reviewed games of all time, and game Players for their
feature reviews, they'd have the main reviewer and then they
(08:39):
would have like a backup second opinion reviewer. Both loved
the game, but the first reviewer, the main reviewer, compared
Chrono Trigger to like jumping into a pile of cheerleaders,
and then the backup reviewer compared it to a wet dream.
And that was how they were treating like one of
the most beloved games of all time, Like can you
imagine going back to like read a review of Lord
(09:00):
of the Rings and like, you know, the guy and
the Guardian or whatever the reviewing for The Atlantic called
Lord of the Rings like a Hobbit band's wet Dream
or whatever, like it would never happen. But that's also
something that very very distinctly draws that line between audiences
of like not just boys and girls, but also like
kids and adults, right, And it created this situation where
(09:22):
kids felt like they were reading something like you know
that had to be maybe kept secret from adults or
that adults just wouldn't get. And I just wonder if
that kind of is part of the reason why video
games aren't there's this perception that they're not taken seriously,
like as a larger cultural sort of institution. And I
wonder if that's because you know, we still have generations
(09:43):
older than us, the Boomers, even Gen X who kind
of grew into video games, you know, maybe having certain
perceptions because all the media around it was sort of
juvenile in those ways. And then as you know, as
we got into the nineties, we did start getting exceptions.
We got Next Gen magazine, which you know went in
a different direction, but it's hard once you have that
(10:04):
initial idea that games are for kids. And I have
this like running theory that the reason that games console
games were perceived as for children is because the chords
on the controllers were too short, and like, nobody over
the age of like twenty five can sit in front
of a TV with a three foot controller playing it.
But like the fact that these magazines, you know, like
(10:26):
the Krona Trigger again, Krona Trigger Issue just has like
the cover is just Sonia blades boobs, and it's like
so clearly geared towards kids that no Dad's going to
pick that up and read it in the you know,
the nineties, No mom's going to pick that up, And
that just sort of sets up reception definitely.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
And I also think, you know, outside of just the magazines,
it was probably a mistake to spend the first three
or four decades of video games as an art form
talking about them in the technology section of the newspaper
rather than the arts and the section of the newspaper.
So you know, and I hate to say grown ups,
but grown ups are opening a newspaper and saying a
(11:04):
review of a book, a review of a movie, a
review of a television show, and then all the way
over in the section that's talking about like the newest cars,
it has a review of a video game, and it
probably just seems it's like, okay, well it's in like
the product review section rather than the art review section.
So I guess this is really more of a toy
for kids, and I think that perception has stuck around.
(11:25):
I also think that, you know, sometimes it's hard for
us ourselves because we kind of sometimes apologize for liking
video games because of that perception. Yeah, like definitely times
with this book, I've been like, I love video games,
but I'm gonna explain stuff so you can still enjoy it,
like you're gonna it's okay. And you don't really have
that barrier with movies or music.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
No, people have the language and the experience is just
to understand like criticism or reporting on movies that they
don't maybe with video games.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Okay, Mike, I got a tough question for you. Okay,
I'm gonna set it up a little bit here. First,
all three of us on this call are traditionally published authors.
All three of us have bylines freelance bylines at various
major outlets magazines, whatever you want to call them, media
operations to various extents. We've all guested and dabbled on
(12:17):
video streaming.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Whatever.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
You've written for the biggest linear TV shows. You've written
for Triple A video games, professional comedy again at the
highest level. Aiden's got a freaking Hugo Award. I had
my own I did satellite and terrestrial radio. I had
my own serious XM show, And I guess my question is,
what the fuck are writers supposed to do? Like, what
are we supposed to do?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Man?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Like?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Writer used to be a job that people could have,
and it feels like maybe that's not true anymore.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yeah, or at least writer, I think, I feel like writer.
There used to be a fewer jobs for writers, but
they all paid more, and now everyone could be a writer.
Like in Ratitude Gratitude, anyone can cook, but now because
everyone can do it, the jobs pay so much less.
Hey, this is Ty. I just wanted to give you
all a little taste of our very first fun Factor
Bonus episode. If you aren't a member of fun Factor Ultra,
please sign up, support us financially, give us a chance
to make it worth your while, and I promise you'll
get a conversation as cool as this with Mike Drucker,
one of the funniest people in gaming. Every single month.
(00:23):
You also get access to the swanky members only area
of our Discord server. All with your membership. Please go
to Funfactor pod dot com sign up, and you have
just a few more days once this goes up, because
at the end of the week, the twenty percent off
sale will expire, our launch window will expire, and you'll
be stuck paying full price like a rube. So if
(00:45):
you like what you hear, go to Funfactor pod dot
com sign up to become a member and hear the
rest of this conversation with Mike Drucker. Outcome. Games aren't funny, Mike, like,
(01:10):
how come it's so hard? As someone who you know
people talk. If you get into any level of writing,
you hear comedy writing is hard. You here, stand up
is hard?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Right?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
TV writing is really intense, and you've done all of
those things that literally the highest possible levels, and you've
written for games as well. It feels like writing comedy
for games is so hard. Like some games have like
some funny moments or like a lighthearted tone. You know,
you can play like two hundred hours of Zelda and
there's like three little hajas in there, you know, But
(01:42):
it seems like games that try to be funny games
are like at best hit and miss. Can you give
us any insight into why this is such a hard
emotion to get to?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I mean sure, I mean I think one thing that
probably didn't help is, for a long time, including now,
a lot of video game writing is not done by writers.
It's done by a designer who might be thinking of
its secondary. It might be, you know, we're cutting characters
and adding characters. We are you know, throwing out an
(02:14):
entire plot line, you know, for and I've not mean
this in a negative way, but for some games it's
almost like I mean it is, the game comes first,
almost like a theme park ride. Might you might add
the story on top of the theme park ride, but
that's not what makes the theme park ride exciting. And
so I think like that is one not problem, but
reason up front. I do think they're getting better about it.
(02:36):
Like if you look at games like thank Goodness You're here.
That game is amazingly funny, and it's funny because all
of the interactions in the game have a funny response,
you know, like if you're the game, if you haven't
played it, play it. You can beat it in two
or three hours. It's not expensive. You go around a
British town slapping things, and it's so surprising and everything
(02:57):
you're doing makes sense within the context of the game,
which makes it funnier. I think a lot of games
fall into this problem of you know what, I think
comedy is a character saying a random one line, which
it can be, but when you have every character sounding
the exact same saying things like that just happened, it
starts to wear thin and you're not really making comedy.
You're having people commenting on the situation, which people in
(03:20):
real life do, but they don't do it for every
other line, or they don't do it because they're a sassy,
you know, best friend of someone who's the real person
in this situation. And I think that's what you kind
of run into, Like I once did a seminar for
a game company for a game that I don't think
they listened to me about, and it didn't perform well.
(03:43):
But you know, the thing that I kind of tried
to explaining was, like it, from what you've shown me,
all of these characters have the same what in comedy
is called a game, which I know is confusing, but
a game in comedy is sort of like what your
character keeps going back to what they keep doing. You know,
they are they so selfish that any situation they make
it about themselves in some way? Are they you know,
(04:04):
like you know, are they so literal that they take
everything you say literally? And those you know, little ways
of those little personality turns really develop a character and
really give you room for being funny. Whereas when you
make everyone just shout one liners, you can tell that
this is an artificial thing that's been shoved into place.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
And I think a lot of people also don't realize
that a lot of comedy and games comes out of
the moment to moment stuff like if you look at
Grand Theft Auto, yes it's there. There's jokes written for
the radio stations, and there's funny scenes but a lot
of the comedy comes from something unexpected happening, which is
a lot of what comedy is is you doing something
normal and then something unexpected subverting that. So I think
(04:47):
it's a problem of one it's not always written by
people who know how to write comedy. Two it's kind
of an afterthought, and three a lot of the times
people aren't really like making the jokes mesh with the action,
so the action just takes precedent over it no matter what.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And I actually
while you were talking, I looked at him that I
do remember getting a personal wreck for thank goodness you're here,
and then.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Probably from me, yeah, I was. I didn't stop talking
about it over a week on Blue Sky because it
just like, it's great. I've never experienced anything like it.
It's insane.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
I think it might be the funniest game.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And like Mike says, it just surprises you every time.
And it has this loop where you go through the
same town over and over and over again. And so
you get through the town and you're like, oh, I'm
back at the beginning, like okay, but then you go
through the loop again and you're like, oh, everything's changed.
What happened, you know, like I made this action the
first time around, and then I did the second time
around something completely different happened that was somehow like weirder
(05:47):
than the first time around. And then you get to
this chapter called Milkshye No More and you're just like
everything is just like off the table at that point,
Like you you hit Milkshye No More has this cow
doing some some things, and you just realize at that
point you're like, oh, Okay, this game is gonna do
whatever it wants. And at that point you're like, I
(06:09):
don't I could not predict what's gonna happen next. And
it just gets funnier from there and it's just it's fabulous,
So yes, please go play it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
And all the jokes tie into the game, like they
all the points that you laugh or you're like, I
did not expect that to happen when I did that.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And that is great, and like it builds on itself.
So like the joke at first is there's this couple
their neighbors and they're fighting over their garbage bins. And
as you go like further through the game and you
loop through a few times, they're fighting about the garbage bins,
and then all of a sudden they're like in the
garbage bin together, and then it turns into the sort
of like you know, like Enemies the lovers sort of
thing with these two people fighting over their garbage cans,
(06:48):
and it just builds in the builds and rewards you
for exploring through and not just like be lining because
you know where you're going or whatever. It's good stuff.
Comedy has always sort of been a part of games media,
and we talked about that earlier, like it was one
of the only places where you know, like the magazines
(07:09):
weren't really taking themselves too seriously. Do you guys think
that this has shaped the perception of games like at
the time, but maybe also continues to play a role
in the way that games are perceived against other you know,
consumption media like movies or books or music.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I mean definitely, I think you know, you know, I
think one of probably the most negative things that video
game media from our childhood probably did was you know,
really like we've said, make it a boys media. Now
that was already in the marketing, that was already in
the advertising. But it doesn't help that, you know, those
(07:49):
magazines spent fifteen twenty years talking about booth baits, you know,
you know, when we would have to have an entire
section about the hottest women at a gaming convention, you know,
who are standing there as probably the worst smelling people
on earth, were like, so what are you doing after
like you know it? And I think that you know
was both negative for us and how we perceive things,
(08:11):
but also it didn't help this perception that this was,
you know, a big toy for big boys versus.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
An artful In the most recent episode that we were
launched today, we look at game Player's review of Chrono Trigger.
So game Players was, you know, one of the biggest
magazines Chrono Trigger one of the biggest, best reviewed, most
reviewed games of all time, and game Players for their
feature reviews, they'd have the main reviewer and then they
(08:39):
would have like a backup second opinion reviewer. Both loved
the game, but the first reviewer, the main reviewer, compared
Chrono Trigger to like jumping into a pile of cheerleaders,
and then the backup reviewer compared it to a wet dream.
And that was how they were treating like one of
the most beloved games of all time, Like can you
imagine going back to like read a review of Lord
(09:00):
of the Rings and like, you know, the guy and
the Guardian or whatever the reviewing for The Atlantic called
Lord of the Rings like a Hobbit band's wet Dream
or whatever, like it would never happen. But that's also
something that very very distinctly draws that line between audiences
of like not just boys and girls, but also like
kids and adults, right, And it created this situation where
(09:22):
kids felt like they were reading something like you know
that had to be maybe kept secret from adults or
that adults just wouldn't get. And I just wonder if
that kind of is part of the reason why video
games aren't there's this perception that they're not taken seriously,
like as a larger cultural sort of institution. And I
wonder if that's because you know, we still have generations
(09:43):
older than us, the Boomers, even Gen X who kind
of grew into video games, you know, maybe having certain
perceptions because all the media around it was sort of
juvenile in those ways. And then as you know, as
we got into the nineties, we did start getting exceptions.
We got Next Gen magazine, which you know went in
a different direction, but it's hard once you have that
(10:04):
initial idea that games are for kids. And I have
this like running theory that the reason that games console
games were perceived as for children is because the chords
on the controllers were too short, and like, nobody over
the age of like twenty five can sit in front
of a TV with a three foot controller playing it.
But like the fact that these magazines, you know, like
(10:26):
the Krona Trigger again, Krona Trigger Issue just has like
the cover is just Sonia blades boobs, and it's like
so clearly geared towards kids that no Dad's going to
pick that up and read it in the you know,
the nineties, No mom's going to pick that up, And
that just sort of sets up reception definitely.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
And I also think, you know, outside of just the magazines,
it was probably a mistake to spend the first three
or four decades of video games as an art form
talking about them in the technology section of the newspaper
rather than the arts and the section of the newspaper.
So you know, and I hate to say grown ups,
but grown ups are opening a newspaper and saying a
(11:04):
review of a book, a review of a movie, a
review of a television show, and then all the way
over in the section that's talking about like the newest cars,
it has a review of a video game, and it
probably just seems it's like, okay, well it's in like
the product review section rather than the art review section.
So I guess this is really more of a toy
for kids, and I think that perception has stuck around.
(11:25):
I also think that, you know, sometimes it's hard for
us ourselves because we kind of sometimes apologize for liking
video games because of that perception. Yeah, like definitely times
with this book, I've been like, I love video games,
but I'm gonna explain stuff so you can still enjoy it,
like you're gonna it's okay. And you don't really have
that barrier with movies or music.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
No, people have the language and the experience is just
to understand like criticism or reporting on movies that they
don't maybe with video games.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Okay, Mike, I got a tough question for you. Okay,
I'm gonna set it up a little bit here. First,
all three of us on this call are traditionally published authors.
All three of us have bylines freelance bylines at various
major outlets magazines, whatever you want to call them, media
operations to various extents. We've all guested and dabbled on
(12:17):
video streaming.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Whatever.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
You've written for the biggest linear TV shows. You've written
for Triple A video games, professional comedy again at the
highest level. Aiden's got a freaking Hugo Award. I had
my own I did satellite and terrestrial radio. I had
my own serious XM show, And I guess my question is,
what the fuck are writers supposed to do? Like, what
are we supposed to do?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Man?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Like?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Writer used to be a job that people could have,
and it feels like maybe that's not true anymore.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yeah, or at least writer, I think, I feel like writer.
There used to be a fewer jobs for writers, but
they all paid more, and now everyone could be a writer.
Like in Ratitude Gratitude, anyone can cook, but now because
everyone can do it, the jobs pay so much less.
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