July 18, 2023 • 21 mins
Charter Schools are free, public, and open to all. These unique public schools are independently-operated under a contract with a charter school authorizer. Examples of authorizers include, non-profit organizations, government agencies, and/or universities. Charter school authorizers hold schools accountable based on the standards outlined in their “charter.” The public charter school model gives educators the autonomy to design classrooms focused on students’ needs. In this episode, David Griffith, Associate Director of Research at the Thomas B. Fordham discussed common misconceptions around charter schools.
Guest
David Griffith
Associate Director of Research at the Thomas B. Fordham
Think Again: Do charter schools drain resources from traditional public schools?
Episode Takeaways:
“We want a safe place with passionate educators and a supportive community." - David Griffith
"No single source has all the answers, but combining information with personal site visits is key."- David Griffith
"Parental choice is crucial. If the current environment isn't working, find a better fit for your child."- David Griffith
Chapters
00:06 – Introduction
01:05 - From Promising to Scalable Solutions for Achievement Gaps
02:40 - Bridging the Knowledge Gap for Average Americans
04:59 - Understanding the Impact of Charter Schools on Traditional Public Schools
08:51 - Driving Educational Progress through Charter Schools
10:14 - Fostering Excellence through Healthy Educational Competition
11:44 - Parental Choice and Regulatory Oversight
14:56 - Challenges Faced by Charter Schools in an Era of Polarization
16:11 - Empowering Change through Education and Advocacy
17:31 - The Importance of Like-Minded Families in Our School Search
19:14 - Balancing Data and Personal Experiences in School Selection
20:35 - Conclusion
Guest
David Griffith
Associate Director of Research at the Thomas B. Fordham
Think Again: Do charter schools drain resources from traditional public schools?
Episode Takeaways:
- Charter schools are free, public, and open to all.
- Research indicates parents want high-quality public-school options.
- Charter schools are held accountable.
- Charter schools are fundamental to the composition of the public education system.
“We want a safe place with passionate educators and a supportive community." - David Griffith
"No single source has all the answers, but combining information with personal site visits is key."- David Griffith
"Parental choice is crucial. If the current environment isn't working, find a better fit for your child."- David Griffith
Chapters
00:06 – Introduction
01:05 - From Promising to Scalable Solutions for Achievement Gaps
02:40 - Bridging the Knowledge Gap for Average Americans
04:59 - Understanding the Impact of Charter Schools on Traditional Public Schools
08:51 - Driving Educational Progress through Charter Schools
10:14 - Fostering Excellence through Healthy Educational Competition
11:44 - Parental Choice and Regulatory Oversight
14:56 - Challenges Faced by Charter Schools in an Era of Polarization
16:11 - Empowering Change through Education and Advocacy
17:31 - The Importance of Like-Minded Families in Our School Search
19:14 - Balancing Data and Personal Experiences in School Selection
20:35 - Conclusion
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello, and thank you for tuningin to the Get Schools on Public Education
podcast. I'm your host, BritneyBaker. And remember, charter schools are
public schools and to further elaborate onthat, charter schools are free, public
and open to all. And intoday's episode we will break down some common
misconceptions. And here to share hisknowledge and expertise, we have David Griffith,
(00:30):
the Associate director of Research at theThomas B. Fordham Institute, which
is focused on promoting educational excellence andequity through research and advocacy. Hi.
David, thank you so much forbeing here with us today. How are
you. I'm good fine, Thanksso much for having in Brittany. Of
course, of course, so David'sresearch has been published in The Washington Post,
(00:51):
the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, just to name a few.
David, please describe your research overthe years at the Forum Institute and what
has drawn you to research a reporton one charter schools. Yeah, well,
thanks for the question. We focuson K twelve education at the Thomas
B. Fordum Institute. We're anational K twelve education think tank and so
(01:14):
we do research and commentary and weare really I would stay focused on excellence
for all children, so not settlingfor good enough, but really pushing kids
to be all they can be.And with regard to charters, I would
say this is probably the central plankin our platform, such as it is,
because personally, I wake up everymorning thinking about achievement gaps and how
(01:37):
to close them. And there area lot of things that could close achievement
gaps, but very few that actuallydo. And one of the few things
that actually does close achievement gaps,according to the research, is charter schools.
And I think even more importantly,the research suggests that they close them
at scale. And that's a hugedeal if you're a researcher, because so
often we see things that seem promisingor that work on a very small scale,
(02:02):
but that don't work when you tryto scale them to an entire state
or the entire country, and chartersare an exception to that rule. Well,
we really appreciate your dedication over theyears, and we're thrilled to having
on our podcast today to help usclear up for common misconceptions about charter schools.
So let's get started with myth numberone. So myth number one would
(02:23):
be charter schools are not public schools, which this is false. Charter schools
are public schools just like district schools. David, why do you think that
most people still don't know that acharter school is a public school? And
do you have any research that speakson that. Well, I haven't personally
researched that, but I will saythat speaking with people ordinary American citizens,
(02:46):
your average Americans simply doesn't know whata charter school is. And I think
there are a couple of reasons forthat. First, even though it may
seem to listeners like charters have beenaround for a long time, the truth
is the movement is relatively recent,right, It's only been around for twenty
five or thirty years, and sowhen many Americans went to school, there
(03:06):
was no such thing as a charterschool. On top of that, although
the charter school movement is growing,it still serves a fraction of American students.
There are states and cities where itserves thirty to forty percent of kids,
but nationally it serves about six orseven percent of kids. And so
if you think about it, thereare really only a sort of a tiny
(03:27):
slice of Americans who have direct experiencesending their children to charter schools. And
you know, people are only human. They've got a lot of things going
on in their lives. Most peoplecan't tell you about the different kinds of
airplanes that fly through the sky,right they don't. They can't tell you
about the model of the engine orwhatever. And so from the perspective of
the typical American, this is somethingthat doesn't necessarily concern them right now.
(03:53):
And so I think most people justdon't know enough to really have an opinion.
And hopefully after this episode, everyonewill be clear that, of course,
charter schools are public schools, andthey're funded by local, state,
and federal tax dollars based on enrollment, and that's just like any other public
school. And also there are nospecial admission requirements, not you don't have
(04:15):
to do any entrance exams, auditionsor anything like that essays to get in.
So let's dive into myth number two. So myth number two is charter
schools drained public school funds. Andthis is another big myth we combat every
day. Public education funding is forpublic education, and charter schools are public
(04:39):
schools. In March, David,you wrote a report title Think Again,
do charter schools drained resources from traditionalpublic schools? Why do you think it
was important to research on this topic, and what do you think are some
of the main reasons people believe themyth that charter schools take away from other
public schools. Well, I thinkit's a very powerful metaphor um, this
(05:02):
notion that you're you're draining something,right. You can you can picture a
half empty schoolhouse and all the childrenhave left, all the teachers are teaching
to empty classrooms. This, ofcourse is not the reality, but I
think it's a compelling mental image thatopponents of charters like to draw on.
Um. Beyond that, I think, um, it is just maybe a
(05:26):
little bit difficult to disprove this notion, right, so um and so in
some ways it almost doesn't make senseto say charters are draining public schools,
because charters are public schools. Butthere is this notion out there, um
that charters are taking away resources,are making it harder for traditional public schools
(05:46):
to do their business. And mypersonal opinion is that there really is not
a lot of evidence to support thisum. And one of the reasons that
this is a difficult study, adifficult, difficult question to answer um is
that we can't. Really, wecan't. We can never conduct a randomized,
controlled trial, right and say well, this this city gets charter schools
(06:06):
and this one doesn't, and lookthey're both just as well off, right.
And I think when you walk intoyour typical school, whether it be
a traditional public school or a charterschool, the notion that that schools are
in trouble is intuitive to a lotof people because no matter what we do,
the kids out number the adults,right, and the average school is
(06:27):
a little bit chaotic. It probablycan't fund every program that parents want,
and so it's not I don't thinkit's difficult for opponents of charters to play
on this sense that our schools areunderfunded, right, that something is hurting
them, And I think that's sortof a difficult notion to fight with.
Evans. In your report, youfound that districts total revenues per pupil actually
(06:51):
increased in most states as the percentageof local students who are enrolled in charter
schools rows. What data supports thisfinding? Yeah, I think the first
thing I would point to is juststatute, right, So there are any
number of laws on the books inmany states that tend to favor districts that
lose students. So, just asan example, majority of states have something
(07:15):
called the declining Enrollment Provision, andthis just says that if your district sees
a decline in enrollment, basically youare given a grace period of a few
years, during which time you willnot lose any money. And if you
think about it, that means thereare fewer students and the same amount of
money. It means there is moremoney per student, not less money,
(07:35):
but more money per student. Andso this is an example of the kind
of thing that tends to work indistrict's favor that they don't like to talk
about. Another example is just thefact that charter schools themselves are underfunded.
So you know, it varies bystate, as some listeners may know,
but in many places charter schools don'thave full access to local funding. And
(07:59):
what that means is when a studentleaves a traditional public school, not all
of the money leaves with that student, some of the money stays. And
it's the same principle the district isserving fewer students with slightly more money per
student. So again, the pointis this notion that there is like less
money left for kids who are leftbehind. It's just simply false. In
(08:22):
most places, it's a big it'sa big country. There are thousands of
districts. I'm sure you can findone where there's a brain of truth to
this charge. But in general,I would say that the effects of charters
on traditional public schools are just overstated. And let's dive into some ways that
to make public education stronger as awhole. How can public charter schools and
(08:46):
district schools work together to strengthen educationalopportunities for students? Yeah, well,
I feel like we could talk aboutthat all day, but I'll just mention
a couple of ways, right thatI think charters help the system. One
way is that they just give parentschoice, right, and so as every
parent knows, every student is different, right, Different students have different needs.
(09:11):
We just did a report on Englishlanguage warners in charter schools in Texas.
Think about this from the perspective ofa parent. Right, an English
language warner has very specific needs,right, they are still learning English.
That is a challenging need for astudent. For an educator in an a
typical classroom to meet, right,he or she may not be well qualified
(09:33):
to teach that. And you canimagine a classroom let's say two or three
of these students and twenty seven otherkids. An English language warner may not
be well served in that classroom fullstop. Right, It may just not
be a realistic thing. And soI believe, and I think many people
believe, that there is benefit toletting parents choose where to send their kid.
(09:54):
Right if it's not working for whateverreason, it may not be the
fault of the adults. But ifit's not working, then you can send
your kid elsewhere. Right, youcan vote with your feet, you can
find an environment where your kid isbeing well served. So that's one thing
that I think charters offer, andI think traditional public schools can be a
part of that conversation to the extentthat they also embrace school choice within you
(10:15):
know, within their district or workwith charters. I guess another thing I
would say is just that it's alwaysgood to have a little bit of competition.
Right. This is you know,this is kind of the American way,
right, And so whenever there iscompetition between institutions, between charter schools
and traditional public schools, everybody wantsto do a little bit better right,
(10:37):
because nobody wants to lose, andpersonally, I think that's healthy. I
think that is something that we seein a lot of other sectors of American
society. I think it's good ifour educators are competing to see whose students
can do the best, who canget the most kids into college, who
can get the most kids a decentjob after high school? Why wouldn't we
want everyone to be striving to dotheir best on those grounds. So those
(11:01):
are just a couple of the wayswe could talk about it all day,
But basically, I think I thinkit's healthy to give parents choice and to
give everyone an opportunity to sort ofput their best foot forward. Agreed,
And I think I think that isjust so important, especially when we are
focusing on putting students first. Itis very important to have the best options
(11:22):
available. So the next myth I'mgoing to talk about happens to also be
one of your focus areas, whichis accountability. Yeah, so myth number
three, charter schools are not heldaccountable and that is certainly not the case
at all based on your research.What have you learned about how charter schools
are held accountable? Yeah, well, so Accountability is one of those words
(11:46):
that means different things to different people, right, But let's just talk about
two types of accountability that charter schoolsare subject to the traditional public schools are
not necessarily subject to. The firstis we've already discussed. Parents can vote
with their feed right. If theydon't like how a school is doing what
it's doing for their kids, theycan walk out the door. It's hard
(12:09):
to think of a more powerful formof accountability than that, right. And
the inverse of that, of course, is that you know, a monopoly
is not accountable, right. Ifyou cannot leave, then it is very
hard to hold the institution that isresponsible for your child accountable for its performance.
(12:30):
And so this is a huge differencebetween charter schools and other types of
schools and the traditional public school system. A second form of accountability is accountability
from regulators or authorizers, the folkswho are responsible for creating a charter school,
and then if it's not doing agood job, shutting the school down.
This is a very important form ofaccountability. It looks different in different
(12:54):
states, It takes time, itis not an easy process, but I
think it's important. Right. Hegoes Ultimately, our you know, our
first job is to do right bystudents right, and so sometimes that means
making difficult decisions like closing a schoolor replacing staff. This is a form
of accountability that all charter schools aresubject to and it has a very i
(13:18):
think telling effect on the way thatadults behave, you know, in the
context of holding them accountable and accountability. It's it's an important factor in the
charter school model, as you stated, and it helps to ensure that students
are receiving a high quality education.Let's get into another myth, the myth
(13:39):
number four, which is our finalmyth that we'll talk about today. Support
for charter schools is dropping, whichis not true. Poles show that this
is a myth. Last year,the Harris Poll survey parents and found out
that seventy four percent of parents wouldconsider sending their child to a public charter
school if one were available in theirarea, and even those who might not
(14:03):
choose a charter school for their child, eighty four percent agree that charter schools
should be available to families who wouldchoose them. Also, three year enrollment
data shows that since the start ofthe pandemic, enrollment gains in charter schools
have held steady and to move back. During the first full year of the
pandemic, there was a large increasein charter school enrollment, which was seven
(14:28):
percent two hundred and forty thousand students. Meanwhile, there was a decrease in
public district enrollment by three point fivepercent, resulting in nearly the loss of
nearly one point five million students.David, why do you think people may
not believe that support for public charterschool is strong? Yeah, I think
(14:54):
I'm going to take my researchers outhere and just awesome, just giving my
opinion. Right, I think thereare a couple of things that are going
on in America that are that arehaven't taking their toll on charters, right.
I think one thing is just thisgrowing polarization that everyone is aware of.
Right, the traditional education reform alliancebetween right and left has largely broken
(15:18):
down. I would say states aregoing their own direction. Red states are
going in one direction, police statesare going the other direction. And I
think charters have always been a reformthat has been embraced by the center,
and so I think that has takena toll at a political level. I
guess the other thing I would sayis that the opposition to charters is extremely
(15:39):
intense and organized, and that's becauseit ultimately is attributable to interest group politics,
right. And so interest groups don'tI'm not going to name any names,
right, but interest groups don't functionthe way normal people do. They
don't relate to politics the way normalpeople do. They never give up,
(16:00):
right, they will never you know, take an election off. They are
there with their donations and their lobbyistsbasically every day of the year in between
elections. Um. And and that'syou know, I think the right the
average person, back to our pointat the beginning, is very open to
the notion of charters when they haveit explained to them, when they understand
(16:22):
what a charter school is. Butthe average person is not sort of staying
up late at night thinking of waysto defeat uh, you know, pro
or anti charters candidates in the nextelection. That's just not how people are.
And so I think the opposition tocharters is in some ways more intense
than the support, which is alot of which is kind of theoretical or
(16:45):
uh, you know, distractable.So I think, um, that's not
a challenge that's unique to the educationsector. Right, it's something that you
see in almost every area of policy. Frankly, is how difficult it is
to defeat entrenched interests. But Ithink it's something that can be overcome through
education and through continued advocacy, andso you know, I'm still very helpful
(17:07):
for the future saying me too.And basically the bottom line, charter schools
are public schools, and they makepublic education better for all students despite common
myths. And it's back to schoolseason, David, you're a dad of
two. What grades are your childrenin and what do you look for in
(17:29):
a school? Yeah, so,just to be clear, my eldest is
only three, so we're pretty earlyin this conversation. Mostly look for something
with locks on the doors. Butyou know, I think I think we're
looking for the same things that allAmericans are looking for. Right. We're
looking for someplace that's safe. We'relooking for someplace that is within reach,
(17:55):
we don't have to drive an hour. We are looking for educators who are
passionate and engaged, care about thekids, have a little bit of experience,
right, know what they're doing.And you know, we're also looking
for for you know, a community, right, families that are feel similarly
(18:15):
about school that we do and wantto create a community. So we are,
like I said, we are veryearly in this conversation, but those
are the things that personally stand outto me. Yeah, David, how
old is your youngest? She's fifteenmonths? So congratulations, thank you.
If I look a little tired,a little dark under the eyes, that's
(18:37):
probably why I was gonna ask.I was gonna say, wow, just
two children under five. I wasgonna say, are you okay? How
are you doing? If I'm hangingin there? It is. You can't
really know until you've tried it,but it is. It's a wonderful time
and life and a challenging time.So thank you, no problem in Just
congratulations again to you and your wife'sso precious is okay? Well in your
(19:00):
research, what are some helpful resourcesparents can you when trying to find a
school for their children, or orwhat resources will you be using when you
start looking for schools for your children? Yeah? I think I would start
by saying you should really visit aschool. I know not everyone has time
(19:21):
to visit hundreds of schools, butI actually, as a researcher, I
would say that a lot of thereare a lot of things that you simply
can't learn from the data, right, And so you are smart about your
kid, right. Your unconscious isworking over time when you're walking around a
place and kind of sussing it out. And so I don't think there's any
substitute for going someplace and getting afeel for it and then trusting your guide
(19:42):
about whether it's a good fit foryour kid. In terms of sort of
how to narrow down the list sothat you can visit a reasonable number of
schools, most state Department of StateDepartment of Education websites have some good information
on that. It'll tell you thingslike how many kids are achieving on grade
level, UM, what the sortof um demographic breakdown of the school is
(20:04):
if you care about that UM anduh, you know they often give out
grades to schools, which I'm notnecessarily a huge fan of, but you
know, it can kind of giveyou a sense of weather, Um,
you know the school is stronger orweaker, and so start to help you
narrow things down. So UM,you know, there's no there's no single
point of information that's going to tellyou exactly what you need to know.
(20:26):
UM. But I think if youcan combine that with sort of your your
own personal um site business. Ithink I think you'll be in good shape.
And that's that's really great advice beforethe National Alliance. I'm taught at
a charter school, and I remembersometimes during those tours when parents or students
may come to your classroom to kindof see and get a feel. It
(20:48):
is just always such a just anice moment to kind of connect, if
you know, if they do,you know, choose to attend your school
to kind of preconnect with families thatyou're working with. So I definitely agree,
I'm visiting the school is the wayto go. David. Thank you
so much for joining us today andhelping us to learn more about charter schools.
(21:11):
I feel like I could just talkto you even longer. I just
I really appreciate you being here today. Yeah, thanks so much, Brittany.
I am very passionate about this subject, so happy to come back.
Oh. Absolutely, Once again wehave David Griffith, the Associate director of
Research at the Thomas B. FordamInstitute. I'm your host, Brittany Baker,
(21:32):
and thank you for listening to theepisode of Get Schools on public Education
and remember charter schools are free,public and open to all. Produced by Heartcast Media
Hello, and thank you for tuningin to the Get Schools on Public Education
podcast. I'm your host, BritneyBaker. And remember, charter schools are
public schools and to further elaborate onthat, charter schools are free, public
and open to all. And intoday's episode we will break down some common
misconceptions. And here to share hisknowledge and expertise, we have David Griffith,
(00:30):
the Associate director of Research at theThomas B. Fordham Institute, which
is focused on promoting educational excellence andequity through research and advocacy. Hi.
David, thank you so much forbeing here with us today. How are
you. I'm good fine, Thanksso much for having in Brittany. Of
course, of course, so David'sresearch has been published in The Washington Post,
(00:51):
the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, just to name a few.
David, please describe your research overthe years at the Forum Institute and what
has drawn you to research a reporton one charter schools. Yeah, well,
thanks for the question. We focuson K twelve education at the Thomas
B. Fordum Institute. We're anational K twelve education think tank and so
(01:14):
we do research and commentary and weare really I would stay focused on excellence
for all children, so not settlingfor good enough, but really pushing kids
to be all they can be.And with regard to charters, I would
say this is probably the central plankin our platform, such as it is,
because personally, I wake up everymorning thinking about achievement gaps and how
(01:37):
to close them. And there area lot of things that could close achievement
gaps, but very few that actuallydo. And one of the few things
that actually does close achievement gaps,according to the research, is charter schools.
And I think even more importantly,the research suggests that they close them
at scale. And that's a hugedeal if you're a researcher, because so
often we see things that seem promisingor that work on a very small scale,
(02:02):
but that don't work when you tryto scale them to an entire state
or the entire country, and chartersare an exception to that rule. Well,
we really appreciate your dedication over theyears, and we're thrilled to having
on our podcast today to help usclear up for common misconceptions about charter schools.
So let's get started with myth numberone. So myth number one would
(02:23):
be charter schools are not public schools, which this is false. Charter schools
are public schools just like district schools. David, why do you think that
most people still don't know that acharter school is a public school? And
do you have any research that speakson that. Well, I haven't personally
researched that, but I will saythat speaking with people ordinary American citizens,
(02:46):
your average Americans simply doesn't know whata charter school is. And I think
there are a couple of reasons forthat. First, even though it may
seem to listeners like charters have beenaround for a long time, the truth
is the movement is relatively recent,right, It's only been around for twenty
five or thirty years, and sowhen many Americans went to school, there
(03:06):
was no such thing as a charterschool. On top of that, although
the charter school movement is growing,it still serves a fraction of American students.
There are states and cities where itserves thirty to forty percent of kids,
but nationally it serves about six orseven percent of kids. And so
if you think about it, thereare really only a sort of a tiny
(03:27):
slice of Americans who have direct experiencesending their children to charter schools. And
you know, people are only human. They've got a lot of things going
on in their lives. Most peoplecan't tell you about the different kinds of
airplanes that fly through the sky,right they don't. They can't tell you
about the model of the engine orwhatever. And so from the perspective of
the typical American, this is somethingthat doesn't necessarily concern them right now.
(03:53):
And so I think most people justdon't know enough to really have an opinion.
And hopefully after this episode, everyonewill be clear that, of course,
charter schools are public schools, andthey're funded by local, state,
and federal tax dollars based on enrollment, and that's just like any other public
school. And also there are nospecial admission requirements, not you don't have
(04:15):
to do any entrance exams, auditionsor anything like that essays to get in.
So let's dive into myth number two. So myth number two is charter
schools drained public school funds. Andthis is another big myth we combat every
day. Public education funding is forpublic education, and charter schools are public
(04:39):
schools. In March, David,you wrote a report title Think Again,
do charter schools drained resources from traditionalpublic schools? Why do you think it
was important to research on this topic, and what do you think are some
of the main reasons people believe themyth that charter schools take away from other
public schools. Well, I thinkit's a very powerful metaphor um, this
(05:02):
notion that you're you're draining something,right. You can you can picture a
half empty schoolhouse and all the childrenhave left, all the teachers are teaching
to empty classrooms. This, ofcourse is not the reality, but I
think it's a compelling mental image thatopponents of charters like to draw on.
Um. Beyond that, I think, um, it is just maybe a
(05:26):
little bit difficult to disprove this notion, right, so um and so in
some ways it almost doesn't make senseto say charters are draining public schools,
because charters are public schools. Butthere is this notion out there, um
that charters are taking away resources,are making it harder for traditional public schools
(05:46):
to do their business. And mypersonal opinion is that there really is not
a lot of evidence to support thisum. And one of the reasons that
this is a difficult study, adifficult, difficult question to answer um is
that we can't. Really, wecan't. We can never conduct a randomized,
controlled trial, right and say well, this this city gets charter schools
(06:06):
and this one doesn't, and lookthey're both just as well off, right.
And I think when you walk intoyour typical school, whether it be
a traditional public school or a charterschool, the notion that that schools are
in trouble is intuitive to a lotof people because no matter what we do,
the kids out number the adults,right, and the average school is
(06:27):
a little bit chaotic. It probablycan't fund every program that parents want,
and so it's not I don't thinkit's difficult for opponents of charters to play
on this sense that our schools areunderfunded, right, that something is hurting
them, And I think that's sortof a difficult notion to fight with.
Evans. In your report, youfound that districts total revenues per pupil actually
(06:51):
increased in most states as the percentageof local students who are enrolled in charter
schools rows. What data supports thisfinding? Yeah, I think the first
thing I would point to is juststatute, right, So there are any
number of laws on the books inmany states that tend to favor districts that
lose students. So, just asan example, majority of states have something
(07:15):
called the declining Enrollment Provision, andthis just says that if your district sees
a decline in enrollment, basically youare given a grace period of a few
years, during which time you willnot lose any money. And if you
think about it, that means thereare fewer students and the same amount of
money. It means there is moremoney per student, not less money,
(07:35):
but more money per student. Andso this is an example of the kind
of thing that tends to work indistrict's favor that they don't like to talk
about. Another example is just thefact that charter schools themselves are underfunded.
So you know, it varies bystate, as some listeners may know,
but in many places charter schools don'thave full access to local funding. And
(07:59):
what that means is when a studentleaves a traditional public school, not all
of the money leaves with that student, some of the money stays. And
it's the same principle the district isserving fewer students with slightly more money per
student. So again, the pointis this notion that there is like less
money left for kids who are leftbehind. It's just simply false. In
(08:22):
most places, it's a big it'sa big country. There are thousands of
districts. I'm sure you can findone where there's a brain of truth to
this charge. But in general,I would say that the effects of charters
on traditional public schools are just overstated. And let's dive into some ways that
to make public education stronger as awhole. How can public charter schools and
(08:46):
district schools work together to strengthen educationalopportunities for students? Yeah, well,
I feel like we could talk aboutthat all day, but I'll just mention
a couple of ways, right thatI think charters help the system. One
way is that they just give parentschoice, right, and so as every
parent knows, every student is different, right, Different students have different needs.
(09:11):
We just did a report on Englishlanguage warners in charter schools in Texas.
Think about this from the perspective ofa parent. Right, an English
language warner has very specific needs,right, they are still learning English.
That is a challenging need for astudent. For an educator in an a
typical classroom to meet, right,he or she may not be well qualified
(09:33):
to teach that. And you canimagine a classroom let's say two or three
of these students and twenty seven otherkids. An English language warner may not
be well served in that classroom fullstop. Right, It may just not
be a realistic thing. And soI believe, and I think many people
believe, that there is benefit toletting parents choose where to send their kid.
(09:54):
Right if it's not working for whateverreason, it may not be the
fault of the adults. But ifit's not working, then you can send
your kid elsewhere. Right, youcan vote with your feet, you can
find an environment where your kid isbeing well served. So that's one thing
that I think charters offer, andI think traditional public schools can be a
part of that conversation to the extentthat they also embrace school choice within you
(10:15):
know, within their district or workwith charters. I guess another thing I
would say is just that it's alwaysgood to have a little bit of competition.
Right. This is you know,this is kind of the American way,
right, And so whenever there iscompetition between institutions, between charter schools
and traditional public schools, everybody wantsto do a little bit better right,
(10:37):
because nobody wants to lose, andpersonally, I think that's healthy. I
think that is something that we seein a lot of other sectors of American
society. I think it's good ifour educators are competing to see whose students
can do the best, who canget the most kids into college, who
can get the most kids a decentjob after high school? Why wouldn't we
want everyone to be striving to dotheir best on those grounds. So those
(11:01):
are just a couple of the wayswe could talk about it all day,
But basically, I think I thinkit's healthy to give parents choice and to
give everyone an opportunity to sort ofput their best foot forward. Agreed,
And I think I think that isjust so important, especially when we are
focusing on putting students first. Itis very important to have the best options
(11:22):
available. So the next myth I'mgoing to talk about happens to also be
one of your focus areas, whichis accountability. Yeah, so myth number
three, charter schools are not heldaccountable and that is certainly not the case
at all based on your research.What have you learned about how charter schools
are held accountable? Yeah, well, so Accountability is one of those words
(11:46):
that means different things to different people, right, But let's just talk about
two types of accountability that charter schoolsare subject to the traditional public schools are
not necessarily subject to. The firstis we've already discussed. Parents can vote
with their feed right. If theydon't like how a school is doing what
it's doing for their kids, theycan walk out the door. It's hard
(12:09):
to think of a more powerful formof accountability than that, right. And
the inverse of that, of course, is that you know, a monopoly
is not accountable, right. Ifyou cannot leave, then it is very
hard to hold the institution that isresponsible for your child accountable for its performance.
(12:30):
And so this is a huge differencebetween charter schools and other types of
schools and the traditional public school system. A second form of accountability is accountability
from regulators or authorizers, the folkswho are responsible for creating a charter school,
and then if it's not doing agood job, shutting the school down.
This is a very important form ofaccountability. It looks different in different
(12:54):
states, It takes time, itis not an easy process, but I
think it's important. Right. Hegoes Ultimately, our you know, our
first job is to do right bystudents right, and so sometimes that means
making difficult decisions like closing a schoolor replacing staff. This is a form
of accountability that all charter schools aresubject to and it has a very i
(13:18):
think telling effect on the way thatadults behave, you know, in the
context of holding them accountable and accountability. It's it's an important factor in the
charter school model, as you stated, and it helps to ensure that students
are receiving a high quality education.Let's get into another myth, the myth
(13:39):
number four, which is our finalmyth that we'll talk about today. Support
for charter schools is dropping, whichis not true. Poles show that this
is a myth. Last year,the Harris Poll survey parents and found out
that seventy four percent of parents wouldconsider sending their child to a public charter
school if one were available in theirarea, and even those who might not
(14:03):
choose a charter school for their child, eighty four percent agree that charter schools
should be available to families who wouldchoose them. Also, three year enrollment
data shows that since the start ofthe pandemic, enrollment gains in charter schools
have held steady and to move back. During the first full year of the
pandemic, there was a large increasein charter school enrollment, which was seven
(14:28):
percent two hundred and forty thousand students. Meanwhile, there was a decrease in
public district enrollment by three point fivepercent, resulting in nearly the loss of
nearly one point five million students.David, why do you think people may
not believe that support for public charterschool is strong? Yeah, I think
(14:54):
I'm going to take my researchers outhere and just awesome, just giving my
opinion. Right, I think thereare a couple of things that are going
on in America that are that arehaven't taking their toll on charters, right.
I think one thing is just thisgrowing polarization that everyone is aware of.
Right, the traditional education reform alliancebetween right and left has largely broken
(15:18):
down. I would say states aregoing their own direction. Red states are
going in one direction, police statesare going the other direction. And I
think charters have always been a reformthat has been embraced by the center,
and so I think that has takena toll at a political level. I
guess the other thing I would sayis that the opposition to charters is extremely
(15:39):
intense and organized, and that's becauseit ultimately is attributable to interest group politics,
right. And so interest groups don'tI'm not going to name any names,
right, but interest groups don't functionthe way normal people do. They
don't relate to politics the way normalpeople do. They never give up,
(16:00):
right, they will never you know, take an election off. They are
there with their donations and their lobbyistsbasically every day of the year in between
elections. Um. And and that'syou know, I think the right the
average person, back to our pointat the beginning, is very open to
the notion of charters when they haveit explained to them, when they understand
(16:22):
what a charter school is. Butthe average person is not sort of staying
up late at night thinking of waysto defeat uh, you know, pro
or anti charters candidates in the nextelection. That's just not how people are.
And so I think the opposition tocharters is in some ways more intense
than the support, which is alot of which is kind of theoretical or
(16:45):
uh, you know, distractable.So I think, um, that's not
a challenge that's unique to the educationsector. Right, it's something that you
see in almost every area of policy. Frankly, is how difficult it is
to defeat entrenched interests. But Ithink it's something that can be overcome through
education and through continued advocacy, andso you know, I'm still very helpful
(17:07):
for the future saying me too.And basically the bottom line, charter schools
are public schools, and they makepublic education better for all students despite common
myths. And it's back to schoolseason, David, you're a dad of
two. What grades are your childrenin and what do you look for in
(17:29):
a school? Yeah, so,just to be clear, my eldest is
only three, so we're pretty earlyin this conversation. Mostly look for something
with locks on the doors. Butyou know, I think I think we're
looking for the same things that allAmericans are looking for. Right. We're
looking for someplace that's safe. We'relooking for someplace that is within reach,
(17:55):
we don't have to drive an hour. We are looking for educators who are
passionate and engaged, care about thekids, have a little bit of experience,
right, know what they're doing.And you know, we're also looking
for for you know, a community, right, families that are feel similarly
(18:15):
about school that we do and wantto create a community. So we are,
like I said, we are veryearly in this conversation, but those
are the things that personally stand outto me. Yeah, David, how
old is your youngest? She's fifteenmonths? So congratulations, thank you.
If I look a little tired,a little dark under the eyes, that's
(18:37):
probably why I was gonna ask.I was gonna say, wow, just
two children under five. I wasgonna say, are you okay? How
are you doing? If I'm hangingin there? It is. You can't
really know until you've tried it,but it is. It's a wonderful time
and life and a challenging time.So thank you, no problem in Just
congratulations again to you and your wife'sso precious is okay? Well in your
(19:00):
research, what are some helpful resourcesparents can you when trying to find a
school for their children, or orwhat resources will you be using when you
start looking for schools for your children? Yeah? I think I would start
by saying you should really visit aschool. I know not everyone has time
(19:21):
to visit hundreds of schools, butI actually, as a researcher, I
would say that a lot of thereare a lot of things that you simply
can't learn from the data, right, And so you are smart about your
kid, right. Your unconscious isworking over time when you're walking around a
place and kind of sussing it out. And so I don't think there's any
substitute for going someplace and getting afeel for it and then trusting your guide
(19:42):
about whether it's a good fit foryour kid. In terms of sort of
how to narrow down the list sothat you can visit a reasonable number of
schools, most state Department of StateDepartment of Education websites have some good information
on that. It'll tell you thingslike how many kids are achieving on grade
level, UM, what the sortof um demographic breakdown of the school is
(20:04):
if you care about that UM anduh, you know they often give out
grades to schools, which I'm notnecessarily a huge fan of, but you
know, it can kind of giveyou a sense of weather, Um,
you know the school is stronger orweaker, and so start to help you
narrow things down. So UM,you know, there's no there's no single
point of information that's going to tellyou exactly what you need to know.
(20:26):
UM. But I think if youcan combine that with sort of your your
own personal um site business. Ithink I think you'll be in good shape.
And that's that's really great advice beforethe National Alliance. I'm taught at
a charter school, and I remembersometimes during those tours when parents or students
may come to your classroom to kindof see and get a feel. It
(20:48):
is just always such a just anice moment to kind of connect, if
you know, if they do,you know, choose to attend your school
to kind of preconnect with families thatyou're working with. So I definitely agree,
I'm visiting the school is the wayto go. David. Thank you
so much for joining us today andhelping us to learn more about charter schools.
(21:11):
I feel like I could just talkto you even longer. I just
I really appreciate you being here today. Yeah, thanks so much, Brittany.
I am very passionate about this subject, so happy to come back.
Oh. Absolutely, Once again wehave David Griffith, the Associate director of
Research at the Thomas B. FordamInstitute. I'm your host, Brittany Baker,
(21:32):
and thank you for listening to theepisode of Get Schools on public Education
and remember charter schools are free,public and open to all. Produced by Heartcast Media
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