February 26, 2024 • 58 mins
The FIFA World Cup takes place every 4 years and guest Javier Labourt has attended 3 tournaments including the South Africa, Brazil, and Qatar editions. As a devout Argentina football fan, he has seen his national team lose and win a World Cup Final. Tune in to relive a few World Cups through the Argentine perspective. Javi witnessed the 2014 final in which his team lost to Germany and the 2022 final against France in which Argentina and Messi finally won the biggest prize in world football.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:14):
You're listening to the Globetrotters podcast.I'm your host John O'to and I'm Maximul
Gonzalez. In our last episode,we interviewed Alexa MacDonald as season solo traveler
and content creator who's been to overfifty five countries. That episode is for
anyone that has ever thought about beingan influencer and the influencer lifestyle and what
it takes to get paid to travelaround the world. But today we have
(00:36):
my friend Javier Laborte, an Argentinetravel psychologist who's actually been on this podcast
before. You have to go allthe way back to episode twelve to listen
to our conversation about the psychology oftravel and happiness. And today we're going
to talk about something that involves traveland brings a lot of happiness and heartbreak
to billions of people around the world, the FIFA World Cup. Every four
(00:59):
years, several teams from around theworld and their fan base traveled to one
country for the ultimate prize. Historically, this has been the most watched sporting
event in the world, with morethan three point five billion viewers. That's
right, billion, not million.Jave has attended three tournaments and two finals
including the twenty fourteen edition held inBrazil, in which Argentina lost to Germany,
(01:22):
and the twenty twenty two World Cupfinal in Qatar, when Messi and
the Argentina team finally lifted the trophyover France. Jave thank you for being
back on the show. Thank youguys, thanks for inviting me. For
me, it's always a pleasure toshare travel experiences with you guys and the
audience. Of course, Yeahjavey.Before we start talking about the World Cup,
(01:45):
let's talk about the Argentine and footballconnection. What does the sport mean
to the people of Argentina and toyou personally. I would say that football
for Argentina, it's it's it's anaspect that really defines our culture. Argentina
is is a country that has beenin in the last forty years, has
(02:08):
been really really affected on its economy, so our way of life has has
been harmed by bad politics, bybad economy, and I would say for
the big mass of Argentinian people,football has always has always been this aspect
(02:28):
of life that always was kind oflike a matter of happiness. Okay,
it could be happiness, it wouldbe suffering, but it's always about a
huge part of life and the kindof of relation that Argentinians have with football,
it's a really passionate one. Soit's not that, for example,
(02:51):
the consequences of a laws. Itreally affects your moral your your I would
say, your mood the next daysor the next weeks. So it's really
part of our our identity and ourhearts, you know. This is what
football is for Argentina. In mycase, In my particular case, I
fell in love with football when Iwas seven year old and I saw Italy
(03:17):
nineteen ninety, the World Cup heldin Italy that Argentina got to the final
and lost against Germany. This wasa team with Maradona and Canihia and a
goalkeeper named Sergio. It was ait was a team that regarding the quality
of the of the of the ofthe play level that we had, the
(03:44):
beauty of the game was very bad. But it really it really, I
don't know, because of circumstances,because of winning penalty shootouts, we made
it to the final and it waslike an epic World Cup. And for
me, being a kid growing upin Argentina, I have I remember like
every game, you know, andfor me it was kind of like a
breakthrough moment that after that I startedto kind of like incorporate football in my
(04:10):
life. After that, I startedto listen to my team's game on the
radio and then going to the stadiumand watching it on TV. But this
was like the breakthrough moment. SoI would say that I started to fall
in love with football in a WorldCup and what that means, you know,
like the whole country coming together watchingan event, watching a national team
(04:31):
and rooting for the same kind oflike towards the same energy for a win,
you know. So every four yearssince nineteen ninety for me was kind
of like a really special month,really special, I would say. I'm
not talking only for myself. I'mtalking for most Argentinians. It's like your
life stops on that month and youare going to watch as many games as
(04:56):
you can, of course the Argentinagames, but also some intro gages that
might happen in the first round,on the round of sixteen, and so
on and so on. But themean of the World Cup. I remember,
for example, when I was fifteenyears old, I was going to
school like one month before I gota calendar, and I started like analyzing
(05:18):
the games. I would kind oflike miss school in order to watch the
games, so I would save somesome like absence for school like that I
could, I could really not goto school because I wanted to stay home
and watch the games. And it'ssafe to assume, HAV that there were
other kids that were also being this, right for sure, I really regardless
(05:41):
of relationship with football, I wouldsay I'm a fan, but I'm not
like the biggest. I mean,I'm super fun. But in Argentina you
can identify with a lot of peoplebeing the same as me. And I
assumed that later we were going tospeak about Katar and this last World Cup.
There were many stoes of fans thatactually they sold their guards to go
(06:03):
on and see Argentina and the WorldCup, you know, like selling the
cars. I just basically in Novemberthird, I was in Real, can
you know. And I went tosee my team, my local team,
which is Boca Juniors, one ofArgentina's biggest teams. Watched the final of
the Copa Libertas that's the South AmericanChampions League. I flowed the way from
(06:29):
Barcelona to watch that game, andwe were like twenty five of us,
Like I was not alone, youknow, and no, no, no,
it's safety. Say you're a fanatic, and it's interesting to hear that
your love of the you know,football started with a World Cup in nineteen
ninety because similarly, I didn't startwatching football or some of our American colleagues
(06:50):
college soccer until twenty ten. Butup until that point in time, I
hated and I mean hated football.And after twenty ten World Cup, it's
become my favorite sport. I'm aRaha Madrid fanatic now and you know I
religiously watch all the games. Butyou you mentioned earlier a name that stood
out, Diego Maradona, one ofthe goats of the sport. And if
(07:13):
you don't know anything about football,that name might resonate to you, to
anyone listening, really, but whenyou hear his name, Havi, what
does he mean to you? SoDiego? I mean, everybody already did
that calls him Diego, you know, because in a way, no one
calls him Maradona. You call Diegolike the first first name. I mean,
(07:34):
this is the thing, you know, it's I mean, he unfortunately
he passed away. I think itwas November twenty twenty, but like until
then, it was someone that everyweek you could you could actually like hear
some kind of news about him.So if you start when you are watching
(07:58):
football, yeah, when you werelike seven years and you start listening about
Maradona and what he did and thetime he had in the game of football,
and then when he stopped playing,he was kind of like this controversial
figure and stuff which you talked abouthim with your parents, you talked about
him with your with your friends,You talked about him to the guy that
lives in the building, your neighbor, to the guy that is the bus
(08:22):
driver, and it's part of thefamily. You know. This is kind
of the relationship that we have.When he was gone, a part of
the Argentinian spirit was gone on.So and this was how this was how
he was remember and he's still rememberedby all of us football fans. This
is from Argentina. It's like thishuge figure that for the audience also that
(08:48):
might not know. In nineteen eightysix, there was a World Cup held
in Mexico and Maradona was the absolutegoat. He played like a World Cup
like I would say, there wereno other figures or maybe play in the
nineteen seventy World Cup, but itwas difficult to kind of like find another
(09:09):
football player playing to the level thathe was playing in nineteen eighty six.
He did amazing things and two iconicmoments from that World Cup the Goal of
the Century in which he pretty muchdribbles from one end of the pitch all
the way to the end to score, and the commentary but I think it's
Victor, I think exactly is legendary. But also in that same match the
(09:33):
hand of God goal. If youdon't know what that is, google it
right now or YouTube. It's like, actually the background for that game in
nineteen eighty six was that Argentina wasplaying against England and in nineteen eighty two
we had a war called the FalklandsWar England against Argentina, where basically the
English army was really strong and reallystood over Argentina's kids that were there going
(09:58):
to fight. We had an Itait Tatorship. It was like a really
a really delicate time for Argentina.So then in nineteen eighty six we were
playing in quarter finals of the WorldCup against England, and all the journalists
and the vibe was saying like okay, now we have the time to get
(10:20):
some kind of reward. It's adifferent because it's different because it was a
war and actually a lot of people, a lot of kids die and stuff,
and war it represents probably one ofthe most horrific things of human essence.
And this was kind of like thereward on a on a soccer pitch,
on a football pitch. But thiswas the comment and Maradona did these
(10:45):
amazing things. One was the kindof like the I would say, the
greatest goal ever in the history ofthe World Cups. This was the goal
of the century. And then onthe other hand, he did some kind
of tricky thing that he scored agoal with hand in the same game.
It's like representing as low as youcan get by stilling an role, and
(11:09):
as high as you can get.And that's like starting from his own side
of the field and dribbling like sevenplayers to the to the to the English
goal. And I think this iskind of an interesting metaphor for what Maradona
is or was, Okay, becauseMaradona, Maradona held this kind of like
this really really interesting and controversial essenceof humanity, of human nature, and
(11:37):
this you can find a guy,this is the same personality a guy that
was probably one of the most talentedplayers that ever existed, and at the
same time he had a lot ofconflicts with cocaine addiction, for example,
a lot of conflicts in politics.He was always kind of like speaking like
politically incorrect things. So in away, you find that, uh a
(12:00):
character that made you cry of joy, I would say when he was scoring
this goal, and on the sametime our simes after you would you would
feel so disappointed because he was kindof like, I don't know, he
was not kind of like being ableto be to keep up with with what
(12:22):
with what with what he deserved ina way, and he and he started
struggling with Okaye and stuff, andthere's there's no doubt before we kind of
move on from this topic that eventhough his life ended tragically short, he
lived the life of five or sixdifferent people. He lived. He was
a larger than life personality. That'strue. That's true. He had many
(12:46):
I would say. Also, hehad a lot of critical health related issues
because of his ocaine addition, anddoctors couldn't believe that this guy survived in
a where he he as you said, he lived a life like that was
kind of like it was worth itfor five lives. You know, a
lot of He had a lot ofphysical endurance that you could see that on
(13:09):
the beach, and you could seethat on the kind of life that he
held about parties and the nightlife andstaff and basically in the end, it
really had consequences from him. Let'sgo on from Diego Maradona hitting the goal
of the century in the World Cup. Let's talk about the World Cup a
bit back in twenty and fourteen andestimated six hundred thousand people flew to Brazil
(13:37):
for the tournament, and more thanthree million people traveled by air between the
matches, and you were among them. Why was it so important for you
to go to the World Cup andbe there in person? As I told
you some minutes ago, I fellin love with the World Cup in nineteen
ninety with this work up held inItaly, and every four years you had
(14:03):
the illusion of traveling to a workcup, of living first hand. How
was this tournament, this meeting,this gathering of a lot of people around
the world, How this party waskind of like what was the buying?
What was happening? Like we alwayshad the goal or the wish to leave
(14:28):
this kind of event, and whenFIFA decided that it was going to be
in Brazil, for us, beinga neighbor in country was like the perfect
opportunity. It was the perfect opportunity. So when Argentinians knew that it was
going to be held in Brazil,a lot of people started making like their
plans in order to either fly orgo by car, because there were also
(14:52):
a lot of Argentinas that drove likeI would say, seventy two hours in
order to get to Brazil. Forexample, the first game I actually go
to a stadium, the first matchI see live from our World Cup was
in Porto and it was the thirdgame that Argentina played against Nigeria, and
(15:13):
for me was everything was new.Like someone I went with some of my
friends that they already had experience inin in South Africa there the World Cup
of South Africa. They were thiswas the third match for them in the
Brazilian World Cups. So they weretelling me, oh, a World Cup
game is like this and you needto go very early because you need to
feel like the preview and chat withthe fans and talk with the with the
(15:37):
fans from the other country and justmaybe exchange shirts and drink a beer,
et cetera. So we were likefive hours before just walking to the to
the stadium from our hotel, andguys, I cannot, I cannot tell
you the quantity of these kind ofmotor homes and cars that were just part
Argentina and part around the stadium,that wouldn't believe. And a lot of
(16:00):
them, like I would say ninetypercent of them, they didn't even have
tickets. They were doing like whatyou guys do the day day, you
know. Yeah, it's like that. Imagine like driving four days just for
the tail date, you know.And this was the Bube. Argentinian fans
they wanted to be there, andin my case, we organized with my
(16:22):
friends this trip that we were goingto see the third game of the first
round that was against Nigeria. Thenspent some days at the beach in a
beach called Marcias, which is closeto Sal Paulo, and then watched the
first the round of sixteen game thatwas against Switzerland. So this was my
(16:42):
first stage in the Brazil World Cup. Then after that things happened and I
ended up seeing until the final.I saw all of the games in some
crazy story that I can I canexplain more, and so you know,
you're sharing with us the argent timeperspective. And you know, I was
lucky enough to go to the WorldCup in twenty eighteen, the one hosted
(17:03):
by Russia, and I've never feltthat type of energy at any event.
And I'm not even like a RussiaFC fan, But there's something that can
be said about the camaraderie that youall love the sport, and so you're
interacting with locals from different parts ofthe world. But you know that World
Cup specifically that you went to intwenty fourteen, you went to the country
(17:25):
that I don't know if you'll agreewith this is probably the most synonymous with
the sport. At that time,it had been twelve years since Brazil had
been to a final, and everyonewas excited that this was probably the year
that they were going back. Whatwas the atmosphere like in the country from
the Brazilian perspective, I thought somethingabout the Brazilian perspective in all World Cups.
(17:45):
They are very confident towards winning,towards being the champions, okay,
and I think that this is thisis I would say a more detailed analysis.
I think that this kind of confidencein the past World Cups has been
harming their actual game, you know, because if you talk to every Brazilian
(18:07):
at that time, they will tellyou We're going to win the Cup,
there's no doubt about it. Andbeing an Argentinian that we kind of get
a different attitude towards that because wetend to be more kind of say like
we don't want to be bragging towardsthat because we live so many failures.
That was like no, no,no, step by step, you know.
(18:30):
But the vibe in Brazil at thetime was like like joyful and glorious
towards we're going to win. Youknow. We have the team. We
have neymar the number ten. It'skind of like our hero, we have
David Luis. We have a teamthat everything is prepared and Brazil the previous
(18:51):
World Cup they held was in nineteenfifty and there was this story of this
final that they lost against Uruguay andwith with an episode called Maraka Naso.
I don't know if you guys heardabout it. The Americanaso was a match
that on the first half Brazil reallywas kind of like playing amazingly against Uruguay.
In the final game, they werebeating Uruay. Want to know,
(19:15):
everyone was celebrating. The was arecord audience in a football game. It
was like more than two hundred thousandpeople in the stadium, and on the
second half, Uruguay turned the gametwo to one and they ended up winning
the trophy at Brazil in Brazil.So for them, it was kind of
like the revenge to kind of likeheal themselves from Maracanaso that was in nineteen
(19:38):
fifty and this was kind of likethe vibe and the expectations that the Brazilian
people had in twenty fourteen. Ofcourse it's hard, but they had that
in mind. Yeah, they weretrying to shed themselves from the ghosts of
the Americana. And so, youknow, before we talk about that final
that Argentina played, and it's fairto say that most people, including myself,
(20:03):
expected and wanted to see a BrazilArgentina final in Brazil, but sadly
Brazil had that infamous seven to onebeat down at the hands of the Germans.
Can you tell us a bit moreabout what the mood was like in
the country after that match, becauseit sounds like it was all samba and
excitement before that game. How didit decline after that basically for them was
(20:25):
I mean, I cannot tell firsthand because I'm not Brazilian, but what
you can sense was like a reallytragic outcome. I saw that game in
the house of Brazilian. Brazilian peoplethat they were, I would say they
were not huge fans, but theywere following the game as all the country
was following the game, and theycouldn't believe. They were just kind of
(20:48):
like, you know what, whenyou're just when you're thinking that what you're
seeing is like a joke, it'slike a prank. You know, this
kind of sensation that what you're watchingcannot be and it's not that you are
so I would say in a ina psychological perspective, when they score a
(21:11):
goal against you, you're kind offrustrated, but you are cheering for more,
okay, to tie the game.They score two, and the frustration
grows. They score three, andthen you start kind of like like seeing
the goal so so so far thatyou just start like losing interest. They
score four, five, six,seven, and you just like I don't
(21:33):
care pardon for the word, butfuck it, you know, you know,
it's like that kind of feeling turnthe page and just think about something
else, because if you actually concentrateand put energy and attention towards what you
are seeing on television, it's likeyou get into depression, you understand.
(21:56):
So it's like it's hard to preserveit. It's like a denial process that
you you can have. Yeah,this was the vibe with with Brazilian people.
It's like at some point the lossagainst Germany was was like extreme,
you know, so there were nolike they were no like kind of like
(22:17):
telling the referee that they made thatthey did a mistake, or the or
the difference played bad. This wasthe Spanish. Yeah, the Spanish world
would be going to then it's likethere were no discussion, you know,
and this has an impact. Butthen on the other hand, it's like
a defeat like this for seven againstone, it helps you turn the page,
(22:41):
like turn the page and just focuson the next game, like you
have nothing to there's nothing to talkabout. It just it's too bad,
you know. A spoiler alert.In the twenty fourteen final, Argentina ends
up losing against Germany in extra time. Harvey walk us through that day.
What was going through your mind asin Argentinian witnessing that life. It was,
(23:03):
I would say, the day Ihad been waiting for many, many
years since nineteen ninety, the timeof revenge, the time of seeing Argentina
win the World Cup. On theother hand, as a football fan,
you are always conscious that the winis something really hard to achieve and finals
(23:26):
are super difficult. It's not somethingthat you could be so confident of achieving,
of winning the game. I hadsome experiences with my team Boca Juniors,
playing really important games that you kindof get the vibe on how these
games are played. In my personalside, I was going to I saw
that game with my dad, witha friend of my dad, with his
(23:49):
son, with a close friend oflike a friend, a childhood friend that
I have that we've been watching footballtogether for four years, his dad.
We were kind of like a groupof seven eight Argentinians altogether. Of course,
we went very early to the stadiumand then we started like starting to
(24:10):
fill the party, the celebration,vibe before the before the referee starts the
game. Yes, the first mission. After that it's all suffering, you
know, and the impact of everyplay is like one is like ten times
the kind of like I would saythe emotional the emotional intensity that you are
(24:36):
used to, you are used tofeel, it's it's way higher. And
regarding the game, I always remembera play that happened in the in the
eight minute Argentina had a really clearchance by euy In, which was a
striker, really good striker. Hegot the ball like outside the area,
(24:56):
but he was alone just to runand his shoot and he shoot like and
it went like outside the goal.So it was it was not even a
say bye, by no, you'rethe keeper of Germany. And I remember
the thought I had at that timewas these opportunities you cannot miss in a
World Cup final, because if youmiss these opportunities, like even one,
(25:19):
you are giving a lot of chancesfor the for the rival. Because it's
always these games, you are alwaysplaying against a really powerful rival. The
two teams that are there are topof the top. And in this case,
like with Germany, they had beenthe team that had eliminated Argentina for
the last I think three World Cupsfor twenty fourteen was the third one.
(25:41):
Ten we lost for no. Innineteen ninety we lost the Willows the final.
In nineteen eighty six we won thefinals in two thousand and six,
they kicked us out out were inpenalty shootout. So it was our great
I would say, enemy, youknow, or villain, you know,
(26:03):
the comic thing, you know,the rival. This this is Germany and
we were playing against them. Theywere an amazing team, really well organized,
really a great coach, a greatkeeper. So when you get this
chance and you missed it, youstart you start feeling more tense. You
(26:23):
know. Actually, when you seethe game right now that how many years
had passed? Eight nine years,how, I don't know how many years,
but a lot of time. Youstill feel sad, you still feel
a little bit of frustration. AndI can tell you what happened to me
(26:44):
personally. So the game ended,you were I was kind of numb towards
I could not understand what was happening, Like, oh I was. I
was sure that we lost, butI could not express my emotions. The
environment in Maracana was really tense becausethere were a lot of kind of like
(27:04):
discussions between Argentinas and Brasilias. Youcould you could feel that there was a
lot of tense in the in theenvironment, a lot of tension in the
environment. So I was with mydad and we went to walk into the
Metro and this work was through theof course, to the neighbors of like
the neighborhood of the of the AmericanaStadium. It was kind of like a
(27:26):
danger situation because the Brazilians were celebrating, cheering for Germany, the Argentinas were
some of them were kind of liketelling the Brazilians, like standing up and
telling them, like hey, stoptrying to fight them. It was really
really kind of like a tense environment. So I was feeling nervous and we
got to the Metro and I sitdown in the Metro and I started feeling
(27:48):
safe at the Metro, and fromone moment to another, when I got
in touch with that and I feltsafe, I started crying like a baby
like that in the shoulder of mydad, feeling that we lost an opportunity.
This is the opportunity that I waswaiting and we lost, and this
is what I felt. And thisis how much I filled the World Cup,
you know, like in that WorldCup, I had many many situations
(28:11):
that were over over what what canmy emotions handle? And this was kind
of like the closing this this circlewas losing and feeling we lost an opportunity
and crying like a baby at thein the shoulder of my valve, you
know, which was like a goodmetaphor, like he was supporting me at
this at this What was it likebeing surrounded by your own countrymen after such
(28:36):
a disappointing loss. You mentioned youfound comfort with your your father. Does
it make it easier being surrounded withthem? Yeah, yeah, for sure.
For sure. It's always sharing anegative emotion, It's always makes it
lighter, makes it easier to toaccept, to internalize, for sure.
(28:56):
And and but actually this is kindof interesting because the whole spirit of the
World Cup has something The World Cuphas has something special, and it's it's
kind of like the celebration of theworld. And this is what actually happened
to me. I told you guysthat I cried on the metal back on
(29:21):
the next day. On the nextday, we were renting an apartment in
Real Carnado. We were like agroup of eight people or something. On
the next day, I receive alike, what's that message from a German
friend that I met in California whenI was living in California. This German
friend was there with his brother andthey attended the final and they were champions,
(29:41):
and he told me how we shouldmeet and we had them for dinner,
you know. And this is kindof like the cam camaraderie spirit that
that you can tell in the WorldCup, you know, so to suffer,
like the main the loss, ofcourse, you get support from your
form, from your countrymen, youknow. But then after that you start
(30:04):
realizing that this is a celebration ofthe world and you start sharing adventures.
I was also in twenty eighteen withLoost against France, and I remember like
we were eliminated of the World Cupin the round of sixteen. And once
you digest it, you start feelingthat this is a celebration of the world,
and this is a celebration of sports, and this is magic and this
(30:25):
this is an event that connects people, you know. And I think this
is the vibe that if you don'tgo to to leave a World Cup,
you will you cannot understand it becausethis is this transcends the result of the
World Cup, of your of yournational team, the vibe of connection that
you feel, and this happens inthe World Cup. It's amazing. Yeah,
(30:49):
totally agree, and I think there'sthat's that's what makes it so special
that that feeling of camaraderie transcends sports, transcends the game, and you definitely
feel it. And that's what Imeant earlier about feeling energy that was unlike
anything else, just you know,in for context, I think the world
tries to, you know, pinAmericans versus Russians, and there's this sort
(31:11):
of like they're the enemy and viceversa. I was sitting in a game
and I went to the one.It was round of sixteen, I think
Russia versus quarterfinal, I think quarterfinal, one of the two I can't remember,
but it was Russia versus Croatia.Game ended up going into penalties,
and when they scored in the verylast minute to send it to penalties,
(31:32):
next thing I knew, I washugging and celebrating with the Russians. You
know, it's like America didn't evenmake the World Cup, but that moment
and being in that arena, itwas just like I was rooting for the
home team, so and that washappy for them for the everyday fan.
But fast forward eight years and theFIFA World Cup is going to be hosted
in Qatar. Unlike the other tournament, you decided to attend Onenzadkandina was confirmed
(31:56):
to play in the final. Wasthat an easy decision to make? Actually,
my decision to attend the final wasone hundred percent influenced by the invitation
of a friend before we get intothat World Cup final. You know,
there's in case, you know,our listeners might not be aware. There
were several differences in that tournament comparedto previous editions. For example, the
(32:22):
twenty twenty two World Cup was thefirst time in Arab Nation had hosted the
tournament. It was the first timean Arab team had made it to the
semi finals. It was also thefirst time the event was held during November
and December instead of the usual monthsof like May, June, and July,
and alcohol was not readily available oraccessible compared to some other additions.
(32:43):
How did this tournament compare to othersyou had attended from the fan experience,
Yeah, I would say that thisWorld Cup regarding the characteristics, the characteristics
of Qatar, which is a reallysmall country. It's not a country like
like Brazil with the possibilities that Brazilhas to offer, or even Russia,
(33:05):
or even South Africa or even Germany. Catalystas is a small Middle Eastern country,
and so so my impression was thatmost of the fans and a lot
of Argentina fans stayed for all thework up there, and they didn't have
the intention of of doing a lotof sight seeing. You understand, it
(33:28):
was more of a work cup thatwas focused on football. Okay, So
in a way, what I sawand what I was talking with other Argentina
fans is that they needed, likefrom game to from one game to another
as they waited for five days,they needed to be entertained with with stuff,
(33:49):
you know. Comparing to Brazil,for example, from one game to
another, you could go to Rio, you could visit Rio, then you
could go to South Pala, thenyou could go to Brasila. That could
you could go to the north orto the south. Catar is small.
So the possibilities, I mean,it's objectively small. I don't know the
quantity of square meters, but thejurist attractions are not as much as as
(34:12):
as in a country as Brazil orSouth Africa. So I would say that
the whole fun experience was more basedinto football and was more based into the
activities that the organization could bring tothe audience. And for example, I
know, I know for a factthat there was the Cutari government. They
what they did was they built somesome kind of billas or constructions, like
(34:37):
some neighborhoods aimed for fans that werenot kind of like able to to pay
a hotel like a I would say, four or five star hotels. Okay,
So what they did is they builtthese villas with a really access affordable,
affordable rate and a lot of Argentinaswere staying the and they they started
(35:01):
building like Argentinians Argentinian's neighborhoods that theyended up changing the name. Now they're
called like Argentina Argentina neighborhoods. Youknow, because because of what they were
doing. For example, every daythey were doing barbecues, you know that
this is the typical Argentina thing.As salahs. You know, they were
playing football on the on the streets. This is what they did to to
(35:23):
entertain themselves from game to game.Also, the I would say that the
economic situation of these fans was wasnot allowing them to to travel to to
buy for example, or to othercities in the Middle East. Some of
them could do that, but mostof them were just waiting for the game
and then they need to make thetime went by. So I would say
(35:45):
as a World Cup, sorry,as a World Cup. The the the
type of tourist attractions that Qatar hasto offer is really different for for what
Razil, Russia, South Africa,Germany has to offer, which is a
which is which are bigger countries withwith more more options to to do and
(36:06):
in a cheaper way. I wouldsay, once the Argentinian neighborhoods got established,
I'm sure they opened up a fewmate stands uh that were readily available.
There was there were some instant storiesof Katari locals drinking matte, trying
matte. There was there was areally funny story. There was a really
(36:28):
funny story that I saw social mediaand Instagram of uh, like like this
Shake of Qatar that invited a groupof fans of Argentina to for like a
lamp barbecue. Okay, there's deal. Fands were very I would say,
as we are like extroverted, reallywarm. They were very very close to
(36:51):
the shake and they started singing likelike these soccer chance but they changed the
lyrics in order to to kind ofcheer up and think the Shake of Qatar,
which was crazy like they invented,and the creativity of these fans,
like adapting the songs that they sungfor their favorite players. But for the
(37:13):
shake of Katara, which was crazy. And this is Argentinia and Argentinian creativity
in football, which is very high. I'm not a football fan like Jonas,
but I just I respect the sportsso much simply for moments like that.
I think that's just such a beautifulthing. Going back to the twenty
twenty two World Cup Final, weretheir fears that the game would turn out
like it did the last final?You had seen, yes, always and
(37:37):
this is the this is what Iwas talking about, the nerves that you
could feel. You know, it'slike a I mean, this is the
moment, like a turning point.You know, everything could go amazingly or
everything could go super bad. Andthis it all comes to these ninety minutes
(37:58):
of eleven against the events, andthis fear is always there, you know,
like the fear of we prepared somuch, We put a lot of
energy, we put a lot ofeffort, we put a lot of money
also to get there, and wemight fail or the team might fail,
and we might feel like if Ireally focus on the team, on the
(38:20):
Argentinian team of this World Cup.I was sensing a stronger team. I
was sensing a better better team work. You're you're talking about the camaraderie between
the players or the individual I wouldsay it's a mix of two. I
would say I will put the focuson Messi, our greatest player, on
(38:43):
l Messi. He was we wereseeing a version of him that was more
mature, more grounded, more ofa leader than he was in twenty fourteen.
When you when he was taking thepenalties for example, I guess the
Netherlands or against Croatia, you couldsee that he was not going to fail
(39:05):
this team. The twenty twenty twoteam Argentina team started the World Cup with
a defeat against Saudi Arabia, whichreally really surprised us. But these guys,
they managed to be really resilient towardsthat and basically, for example,
the match against Mexico was very hardand they managed to to take it on.
(39:25):
The match against the Netherland was superhard and they managed to like in
a psychology, in a psychological way, were they were showing signs of being
a really powerful team in a footballway also, but psychologically they were they
were standing strong and you could feelthat yeah, I could feel that,
(39:45):
yeah, yeah, yeah, Iagree that that was a mature and Messi
was kind of like the leader ofthat. There was like a vibe in
the year that was also kind oflike Abiube that we could feel as fans
and support that this team had somethingdifferent, not because of the names.
The name was only because Messi waskind of like the goat and stuff,
(40:08):
but because of the kind of liketeamwork, the kind of vibe of relations
that they were having the coach,the helpers of the coach, the communion
with the fans was also really interestingand you could feel that something was different
about other national teams. Still,we could have lost because it comes to
(40:31):
ninety minutes. It comes to agame that someone can fail and stuff and
everything can turn around in a second. You know. Let me preface this
by saying the twenty twenty two WorldCup Final is touted as one of the
(40:52):
greatest, if not the greatest footballmatch of all time just because of what
it had. We know how thestory ends, and so excuse me if
I'm going to break it down stepby step, but I want to go
here break it down for us.Havi Argandina jumped out to an early two
lead in the first half. Atthat point, did you think it was
(41:15):
over? Were you celebrating? AndI will tell you. I will tell
you some like really, I wouldtell you guys, like an anecdote that
happened to me in half time.Okay, at halftime, Argentina was willing
to know. And the first halfwas Argentina was outstanding. We were playing
amazingly. Okay, we don't believeour eyes because we're really like France name
(41:39):
my name by name. It's amore more powerful team than than than our
team. Okay, but regarding whatwe were showing on the field, on
the pitch, Argentina was playing amazingly. So the first half ends, I
turned, I turned myself back andI see a guy older than me crying.
(42:00):
Okay, and he was saying hewas telling me I've always wanted to
see Argentina win the World Cup andnow we are doing it. And I
said, like, I said,like no, no, no, no,
no, my friend, I mean, this is not like this.
We still have the second half,we still need to play that and in
front we have France and France.I mean to celebrate, you have to
(42:22):
win you know, and in afootball game, reality can change in a
matter of a second, in areally dedicated in a short, in a
short, in a glimpse of time, it could change. And this is
what happened. And this guy,I I haven't recalled getting back to him,
but I really feel like was Iwas good with with what I told
(42:45):
him, Like, bro, becareful because France is France, and they
have amazing players. They have,they have column money, they have they
have yeah yeah, I mean theyhave a lot of prayers and they could
turn around the situation in a second. And sure it happened. And that's
exactly exactly that. That's within thespan of a few minutes, and Babbis
(43:06):
scored a brace. That's two goals. They end up trying the game to
to to send it into overtime andalmost one. At the end of those
ninety minutes, were you and otherArgentinian fans thinking you had blown your chance?
As I as I told you guys, I was always believing in the
teams, always been living in theteam. And if you see the game
(43:29):
Argentina, I want to bring asituation that was kind of clear that also
it's kind of a situation of kindof like how funs approach these kind of
games. Argentina was winning. Toknow, some of the Argentina and fans,
Argentina was passing the ball in areally being a really protagonist of the
(43:53):
game, and some of the fanswe're seeing like holy, holy, holy,
this is what what we call whenwhen the match is sober, you
know, and from one moment toanother, and course two one penalty and
the second one is an amazing playthat he should like like without letting the
(44:15):
yeah, it almost looks like amazing, amazing, And after that, I
would say that that our spirits werenot broken. We were used to a
team that showed us in many situationsalong the World Cup that they were standing
up, that they had this thistalent of standing up when when the situation
(44:38):
was telling them to stand up whenwhen they were positive. For example,
the Netherlands, we were to know. And then we went to to and
we went to penalties, and theextra time Argentina was playing much better than
the Netherlands and we finally we endedup beating them on on penalties. So
I would say that the psychology andthe strength of this team was showing us
(44:59):
that we still needed to believe onthem, and this is this is I
think that this this aspect of believingin a team was also an aspect that
made them win. There was aphrase that was really popular in Argentina at
that time and it was called theSpanish world was alego career, I choose
to believe. And everybody was tellinglike, do you think that we will
(45:22):
win? And we were we weresaying, eligo career, I choose to
believe. And it helped the teamthat we were all like on the same
I would say, in the samebus, on the on the same track.
We were all cheering for that andwe were all choosing to believe even
when we were too too after beingto know. We were choosing to believe
because we believe in those players.We live in Messi, we will leave
(45:45):
in the coach, we believe inin the the the crazy keeper that we
have which is a great character JenoMartinez di Wu, which these guys really
stood up for the shirt for thecountry. And and this is this was
what we were feeling. We werenervous, but in the down of our
experience, we were feeling that we'rechoosing to believe we could do it and
(46:09):
really up doing it. To addto that drama. The game goes into
overtime and then another two goals arescored. I'm sure at some point you
feel like, hey, maybe theyhave it in the bag. But and
Boppis scores a third goal to makeit a hat trick in a World Cup
final. The game goes to apenalty shootout, and I can't think of
anything more nerve wracking, because I'veseen a Champion League final in twenty sixteen
(46:31):
Rama Drivers of Atletico, in whichI went into penalty shootouts, and I
remember the feeling in my stomach thinkingthat I was going to ship myself from
so much anxiety. What was Whatwere those penalty shootouts like? For you?
Was time standing still? I willget a personal story two ill stort
(46:54):
a little bit about this. Sothe match was December eighteen two. Okay,
February fifteen of the next year,of twenty twenty three, I go
to the doctor. Okay, Iwas having digestive problems. She tells me.
The doctor tells me, are yousuffering stress? And I tell her
(47:16):
I've been suffering for the consequences ofthe World Cup. And this is true.
My stomach was wasted and I'm aguy that barely drinks, tried to
take be careful with food and stuff. But this World Cup was way another
level. Like the nerves that wehad was way another level. Also in
(47:37):
my particular experience, like planning soclose to the limit of the match was
also kind of like nerve wreaking.And the penalties was kind of like the
strawberry and the research. You know, this is kind of like the last
dance in a way. The greatthing was also that the penalties were in
(48:02):
the in the in the goal thatI was just behind. I can show
you guys pictures that there are picturesthat Messi is shooting his penalty and I'm
there, you know. So Iwas like a privilege. I had like
a privileged seat next to all theArgentina Argentina fans, and this was kind
(48:22):
of like the feeling that we had. On the other hand, we knew
that our keeper was very good.We knew that our keeper was very good
in penalties. In the Coup Americatwo years before that was celebrated in Brazil,
this guy demonstrated us that he wasa penalty stopper. A guess the
Netherlands, he was a penalty stopperand now in the final, we believed
(48:45):
in him and he didn't let usdown. You know, we trusted him
and then everything came, you know, everything came. The Argentinian kickers,
messy Parees, divala, what amontiel. They did a they did what
(49:06):
what it took, you know,they scored from a moment to another.
We were crying like babies, andI was not the only one. I
would say, like eighty percent oftheir genial fans we were. We were
crying and we couldn't emotionally believe whatwe were seeing. This was if you
see the Argentina players and you seethe way they celebrated, you would see
(49:30):
that they couldn't react in a logicalway. They were throwing themselves to the
floor. They couldn't like kind oflike support the the intensity of that emotion,
of that positive emotion. It wasamazing in that way. And we
still, as Argentina's one year after, we still get together and we talk
(49:51):
about that moment and I think itwill it will last until until the end
of our days. You know,these memories of winning the World Cup and
you were there, my friend inperson. No, I honestly want to
say, I'm not even a LeonelMessi fan. I'm a huge Cristiano Ronaldo
fanatic, and you'll never convince methat Messi is better than Ronaldo. But
(50:13):
that's a discussion for a different podcast. But in truth, I was happy
for it, for Messi and forthe Argentina fans. It was incredible to
see. And so you know,I'm happy for you, not only because
you were there, but because you'rea friend, a good person, and
so congratulations for that memory. Butbefore we kind of wrap up here,
I just want to ask you ifsomeone was if someone was interested in going
(50:38):
to a World Cup and they wereasking you, like, hey, Hawvey,
should I go or should I notgo? Well, why would you
say you have to go? Ithink it's first of all, in my
personal opinion, and I think youguys might agree. Sport, whatever sport,
(51:00):
it's kind of like a world connectorin the case of football, it's
the most popular sport in the world. And if you guys travel and you
know about football, you can alwaysconnect with people from all over the world.
I mean, for example, whenI was in Africa, I remember
being in San Siva. I wentto a bar and I was watching a
Liverpool game with locals and we started, we always started a conversation with football.
(51:24):
So I would say football is likethe global the global connector. Sports
are a global connector, but footballparticularly is like it's global. It it's
easy to play, it's easy forpeople to empathize with football. So first
of all, let's bring what footballbrings for the people. Second, let's
(51:45):
let's bring that a World Cup islike the it's like the event of the
events. If you compare it,for example, with the super Bowl.
With the super Bowl is just forthe US, it's really popular, and
also it's once a year. Alot of when are just waiting to see
this event. Football is for thewhole world. So we're we're talking to
an audience that basically involves ellis yeah, billions, and also it involves this
(52:14):
kind of like representation of the country. Okay, So so that's a fact.
Another fact is that you would seefor example, football superstars on the
on the field defending their home countries, where money is kind of like on
a second, it's not the mainaspect. What they want to do is
(52:34):
is glory is personal. Glory iskind of getting them to the feeling that
they had when they started defending theirtheir flag, their families, their their
their traditions, you know, onthe pitch. So for me, I
would say that the the the pridethat you see people from Peru that they're
(52:57):
playing the World Cup, people fromcro Asia, people from South Africa,
people from Trinidad and Tobago, fromCosta Rica, from Senegal, seeing their
players represent their country is something thatyou have to feel it with your own
eyes. This is kind of likeand it's not only about the game.
Is what happens in the in thepre game next to the stadium it was,
(53:20):
is what happened on the bars,on the on the center of the
city. Is what happens that everybodyis showing their shirt when they walk around
and you talk about I don't know. I remember meeting fans from Sweden,
talking about football with them, aboutlife with them, meeting people from Peru,
from Russia, from the US,from It's like a lot of the
(53:45):
problems that you can see in inin political issues for example, they're they're
forgotten. In the World Cup.It's for me, it's an event that
you cannot miss if you if youlove the concept of traveling, sharing,
learning, other cultures, and especiallygetting this kind of like passion and energy
(54:08):
for something that involves your traditions.You know, this is what the word
gup represents. Yeah, when youwere mentioning how football just connects with all
different cultures, every country is involved. I like to think about it as
sports is sound and football is music. Everyone has a connection to it,
(54:30):
so that's a beautiful thing. Harvey, thank you so much for being a
guest on our show for the secondtime, delivering per usual. If our
guests want to learn more about you, please tell them where that can they
find you and tell them a bitmore about who you are and what you
do and how you view travel asa form of psychology. Basically, my
(54:53):
profession is I'm a psychologist. Idid a lot of my studies in that
field that I have a license fromArgentina, and in the past years I've
been studying and trying to apply themthe bond that psychology and traveling has,
so I like always to analyze thepower of traveling, adapting it and integrating
(55:22):
it with personal change, with thechange of a personal perspective. And this
is what I do and this iswhat I'm working on. I have a
method I developed that I explain inanother episode that I'm trying to apply in
this upcoming year twenty twenty four ina in a TV project that I'm starting
(55:45):
to produce, that I want totake people on trips in order to help
them change applying this method that Ithink it could. It could change the
way people travel nowadays for a moreI would say, shows, and and
and a way that they could theycould use traveling to to promote their own
(56:06):
personal change. This is what Ido. This is what I'm doing every
day. And they can find meon my Instagram, which right now is
a closed account, but they canstill follow me. Maybe at some point
in the next days I will openit again, which is at heavy j
A b I l A b ou r T heavy labourd. This is
(56:30):
my Instagram. They can I havea website that I haven't used much but
I which is w w w dotheavy labourd dot com. As my name
have you from Cavier l A bo u r T. They can write
me over there. We can bein touch if they are interested in in
(56:52):
seeing of more of what I do. So basically I already talk about it,
but travel and psychology are kind ofmy two pillars and let's sad a
little bit football also right, yeah, the third pillar. Yeah, and
if you want to learn about thatthird pillar, definitely tuned back to episode
(57:15):
twelve so you can find out moreabout Hovey and his live method and travel
psychology. But if you want tolearn a little bit more about us,
but you can do so by visitingour website at www dot gtspodcast dot com.
You can find us on Instagram orFacebook at Globetrotter's Podcast, Twitter or
x at globetrot Pod. Make sureyou drop us a review on Apple Podcasts
(57:37):
or Spotify. If you enjoyed listeningto this conversation, editing was done by
our very own Jonathan Otero. Thanksfor listening.
You're listening to the Globetrotters podcast.I'm your host John O'to and I'm Maximul
Gonzalez. In our last episode,we interviewed Alexa MacDonald as season solo traveler
and content creator who's been to overfifty five countries. That episode is for
anyone that has ever thought about beingan influencer and the influencer lifestyle and what
it takes to get paid to travelaround the world. But today we have
(00:36):
my friend Javier Laborte, an Argentinetravel psychologist who's actually been on this podcast
before. You have to go allthe way back to episode twelve to listen
to our conversation about the psychology oftravel and happiness. And today we're going
to talk about something that involves traveland brings a lot of happiness and heartbreak
to billions of people around the world, the FIFA World Cup. Every four
(00:59):
years, several teams from around theworld and their fan base traveled to one
country for the ultimate prize. Historically, this has been the most watched sporting
event in the world, with morethan three point five billion viewers. That's
right, billion, not million.Jave has attended three tournaments and two finals
including the twenty fourteen edition held inBrazil, in which Argentina lost to Germany,
(01:22):
and the twenty twenty two World Cupfinal in Qatar, when Messi and
the Argentina team finally lifted the trophyover France. Jave thank you for being
back on the show. Thank youguys, thanks for inviting me. For
me, it's always a pleasure toshare travel experiences with you guys and the
audience. Of course, Yeahjavey.Before we start talking about the World Cup,
(01:45):
let's talk about the Argentine and footballconnection. What does the sport mean
to the people of Argentina and toyou personally. I would say that football
for Argentina, it's it's it's anaspect that really defines our culture. Argentina
is is a country that has beenin in the last forty years, has
(02:08):
been really really affected on its economy, so our way of life has has
been harmed by bad politics, bybad economy, and I would say for
the big mass of Argentinian people,football has always has always been this aspect
(02:28):
of life that always was kind oflike a matter of happiness. Okay,
it could be happiness, it wouldbe suffering, but it's always about a
huge part of life and the kindof of relation that Argentinians have with football,
it's a really passionate one. Soit's not that, for example,
(02:51):
the consequences of a laws. Itreally affects your moral your your I would
say, your mood the next daysor the next weeks. So it's really
part of our our identity and ourhearts, you know. This is what
football is for Argentina. In mycase, In my particular case, I
fell in love with football when Iwas seven year old and I saw Italy
(03:17):
nineteen ninety, the World Cup heldin Italy that Argentina got to the final
and lost against Germany. This wasa team with Maradona and Canihia and a
goalkeeper named Sergio. It was ait was a team that regarding the quality
of the of the of the ofthe play level that we had, the
(03:44):
beauty of the game was very bad. But it really it really, I
don't know, because of circumstances,because of winning penalty shootouts, we made
it to the final and it waslike an epic World Cup. And for
me, being a kid growing upin Argentina, I have I remember like
every game, you know, andfor me it was kind of like a
breakthrough moment that after that I startedto kind of like incorporate football in my
(04:10):
life. After that, I startedto listen to my team's game on the
radio and then going to the stadiumand watching it on TV. But this
was like the breakthrough moment. SoI would say that I started to fall
in love with football in a WorldCup and what that means, you know,
like the whole country coming together watchingan event, watching a national team
(04:31):
and rooting for the same kind oflike towards the same energy for a win,
you know. So every four yearssince nineteen ninety for me was kind
of like a really special month,really special, I would say. I'm
not talking only for myself. I'mtalking for most Argentinians. It's like your
life stops on that month and youare going to watch as many games as
(04:56):
you can, of course the Argentinagames, but also some intro gages that
might happen in the first round,on the round of sixteen, and so
on and so on. But themean of the World Cup. I remember,
for example, when I was fifteenyears old, I was going to
school like one month before I gota calendar, and I started like analyzing
(05:18):
the games. I would kind oflike miss school in order to watch the
games, so I would save somesome like absence for school like that I
could, I could really not goto school because I wanted to stay home
and watch the games. And it'ssafe to assume, HAV that there were
other kids that were also being this, right for sure, I really regardless
(05:41):
of relationship with football, I wouldsay I'm a fan, but I'm not
like the biggest. I mean,I'm super fun. But in Argentina you
can identify with a lot of peoplebeing the same as me. And I
assumed that later we were going tospeak about Katar and this last World Cup.
There were many stoes of fans thatactually they sold their guards to go
(06:03):
on and see Argentina and the WorldCup, you know, like selling the
cars. I just basically in Novemberthird, I was in Real, can
you know. And I went tosee my team, my local team,
which is Boca Juniors, one ofArgentina's biggest teams. Watched the final of
the Copa Libertas that's the South AmericanChampions League. I flowed the way from
(06:29):
Barcelona to watch that game, andwe were like twenty five of us,
Like I was not alone, youknow, and no, no, no,
it's safety. Say you're a fanatic, and it's interesting to hear that
your love of the you know,football started with a World Cup in nineteen
ninety because similarly, I didn't startwatching football or some of our American colleagues
(06:50):
college soccer until twenty ten. Butup until that point in time, I
hated and I mean hated football.And after twenty ten World Cup, it's
become my favorite sport. I'm aRaha Madrid fanatic now and you know I
religiously watch all the games. Butyou you mentioned earlier a name that stood
out, Diego Maradona, one ofthe goats of the sport. And if
(07:13):
you don't know anything about football,that name might resonate to you, to
anyone listening, really, but whenyou hear his name, Havi, what
does he mean to you? SoDiego? I mean, everybody already did
that calls him Diego, you know, because in a way, no one
calls him Maradona. You call Diegolike the first first name. I mean,
(07:34):
this is the thing, you know, it's I mean, he unfortunately
he passed away. I think itwas November twenty twenty, but like until
then, it was someone that everyweek you could you could actually like hear
some kind of news about him.So if you start when you are watching
(07:58):
football, yeah, when you werelike seven years and you start listening about
Maradona and what he did and thetime he had in the game of football,
and then when he stopped playing,he was kind of like this controversial
figure and stuff which you talked abouthim with your parents, you talked about
him with your with your friends,You talked about him to the guy that
lives in the building, your neighbor, to the guy that is the bus
(08:22):
driver, and it's part of thefamily. You know. This is kind
of the relationship that we have.When he was gone, a part of
the Argentinian spirit was gone on.So and this was how this was how
he was remember and he's still rememberedby all of us football fans. This
is from Argentina. It's like thishuge figure that for the audience also that
(08:48):
might not know. In nineteen eightysix, there was a World Cup held
in Mexico and Maradona was the absolutegoat. He played like a World Cup
like I would say, there wereno other figures or maybe play in the
nineteen seventy World Cup, but itwas difficult to kind of like find another
(09:09):
football player playing to the level thathe was playing in nineteen eighty six.
He did amazing things and two iconicmoments from that World Cup the Goal of
the Century in which he pretty muchdribbles from one end of the pitch all
the way to the end to score, and the commentary but I think it's
Victor, I think exactly is legendary. But also in that same match the
(09:33):
hand of God goal. If youdon't know what that is, google it
right now or YouTube. It's like, actually the background for that game in
nineteen eighty six was that Argentina wasplaying against England and in nineteen eighty two
we had a war called the FalklandsWar England against Argentina, where basically the
English army was really strong and reallystood over Argentina's kids that were there going
(09:58):
to fight. We had an Itait Tatorship. It was like a really
a really delicate time for Argentina.So then in nineteen eighty six we were
playing in quarter finals of the WorldCup against England, and all the journalists
and the vibe was saying like okay, now we have the time to get
(10:20):
some kind of reward. It's adifferent because it's different because it was a
war and actually a lot of people, a lot of kids die and stuff,
and war it represents probably one ofthe most horrific things of human essence.
And this was kind of like thereward on a on a soccer pitch,
on a football pitch. But thiswas the comment and Maradona did these
(10:45):
amazing things. One was the kindof like the I would say, the
greatest goal ever in the history ofthe World Cups. This was the goal
of the century. And then onthe other hand, he did some kind
of tricky thing that he scored agoal with hand in the same game.
It's like representing as low as youcan get by stilling an role, and
(11:09):
as high as you can get.And that's like starting from his own side
of the field and dribbling like sevenplayers to the to the to the English
goal. And I think this iskind of an interesting metaphor for what Maradona
is or was, Okay, becauseMaradona, Maradona held this kind of like
this really really interesting and controversial essenceof humanity, of human nature, and
(11:37):
this you can find a guy,this is the same personality a guy that
was probably one of the most talentedplayers that ever existed, and at the
same time he had a lot ofconflicts with cocaine addiction, for example,
a lot of conflicts in politics.He was always kind of like speaking like
politically incorrect things. So in away, you find that, uh a
(12:00):
character that made you cry of joy, I would say when he was scoring
this goal, and on the sametime our simes after you would you would
feel so disappointed because he was kindof like, I don't know, he
was not kind of like being ableto be to keep up with with what
(12:22):
with what with what he deserved ina way, and he and he started
struggling with Okaye and stuff, andthere's there's no doubt before we kind of
move on from this topic that eventhough his life ended tragically short, he
lived the life of five or sixdifferent people. He lived. He was
a larger than life personality. That'strue. That's true. He had many
(12:46):
I would say. Also, hehad a lot of critical health related issues
because of his ocaine addition, anddoctors couldn't believe that this guy survived in
a where he he as you said, he lived a life like that was
kind of like it was worth itfor five lives. You know, a
lot of He had a lot ofphysical endurance that you could see that on
(13:09):
the beach, and you could seethat on the kind of life that he
held about parties and the nightlife andstaff and basically in the end, it
really had consequences from him. Let'sgo on from Diego Maradona hitting the goal
of the century in the World Cup. Let's talk about the World Cup a
bit back in twenty and fourteen andestimated six hundred thousand people flew to Brazil
(13:37):
for the tournament, and more thanthree million people traveled by air between the
matches, and you were among them. Why was it so important for you
to go to the World Cup andbe there in person? As I told
you some minutes ago, I fellin love with the World Cup in nineteen
ninety with this work up held inItaly, and every four years you had
(14:03):
the illusion of traveling to a workcup, of living first hand. How
was this tournament, this meeting,this gathering of a lot of people around
the world, How this party waskind of like what was the buying?
What was happening? Like we alwayshad the goal or the wish to leave
(14:28):
this kind of event, and whenFIFA decided that it was going to be
in Brazil, for us, beinga neighbor in country was like the perfect
opportunity. It was the perfect opportunity. So when Argentinians knew that it was
going to be held in Brazil,a lot of people started making like their
plans in order to either fly orgo by car, because there were also
(14:52):
a lot of Argentinas that drove likeI would say, seventy two hours in
order to get to Brazil. Forexample, the first game I actually go
to a stadium, the first matchI see live from our World Cup was
in Porto and it was the thirdgame that Argentina played against Nigeria, and
(15:13):
for me was everything was new.Like someone I went with some of my
friends that they already had experience inin in South Africa there the World Cup
of South Africa. They were thiswas the third match for them in the
Brazilian World Cups. So they weretelling me, oh, a World Cup
game is like this and you needto go very early because you need to
feel like the preview and chat withthe fans and talk with the with the
(15:37):
fans from the other country and justmaybe exchange shirts and drink a beer,
et cetera. So we were likefive hours before just walking to the to
the stadium from our hotel, andguys, I cannot, I cannot tell
you the quantity of these kind ofmotor homes and cars that were just part
Argentina and part around the stadium,that wouldn't believe. And a lot of
(16:00):
them, like I would say ninetypercent of them, they didn't even have
tickets. They were doing like whatyou guys do the day day, you
know. Yeah, it's like that. Imagine like driving four days just for
the tail date, you know.And this was the Bube. Argentinian fans
they wanted to be there, andin my case, we organized with my
(16:22):
friends this trip that we were goingto see the third game of the first
round that was against Nigeria. Thenspent some days at the beach in a
beach called Marcias, which is closeto Sal Paulo, and then watched the
first the round of sixteen game thatwas against Switzerland. So this was my
(16:42):
first stage in the Brazil World Cup. Then after that things happened and I
ended up seeing until the final.I saw all of the games in some
crazy story that I can I canexplain more, and so you know,
you're sharing with us the argent timeperspective. And you know, I was
lucky enough to go to the WorldCup in twenty eighteen, the one hosted
(17:03):
by Russia, and I've never feltthat type of energy at any event.
And I'm not even like a RussiaFC fan, But there's something that can
be said about the camaraderie that youall love the sport, and so you're
interacting with locals from different parts ofthe world. But you know that World
Cup specifically that you went to intwenty fourteen, you went to the country
(17:25):
that I don't know if you'll agreewith this is probably the most synonymous with
the sport. At that time,it had been twelve years since Brazil had
been to a final, and everyonewas excited that this was probably the year
that they were going back. Whatwas the atmosphere like in the country from
the Brazilian perspective, I thought somethingabout the Brazilian perspective in all World Cups.
(17:45):
They are very confident towards winning,towards being the champions, okay,
and I think that this is thisis I would say a more detailed analysis.
I think that this kind of confidencein the past World Cups has been
harming their actual game, you know, because if you talk to every Brazilian
(18:07):
at that time, they will tellyou We're going to win the Cup,
there's no doubt about it. Andbeing an Argentinian that we kind of get
a different attitude towards that because wetend to be more kind of say like
we don't want to be bragging towardsthat because we live so many failures.
That was like no, no,no, step by step, you know.
(18:30):
But the vibe in Brazil at thetime was like like joyful and glorious
towards we're going to win. Youknow. We have the team. We
have neymar the number ten. It'skind of like our hero, we have
David Luis. We have a teamthat everything is prepared and Brazil the previous
(18:51):
World Cup they held was in nineteenfifty and there was this story of this
final that they lost against Uruguay andwith with an episode called Maraka Naso.
I don't know if you guys heardabout it. The Americanaso was a match
that on the first half Brazil reallywas kind of like playing amazingly against Uruguay.
In the final game, they werebeating Uruay. Want to know,
(19:15):
everyone was celebrating. The was arecord audience in a football game. It
was like more than two hundred thousandpeople in the stadium, and on the
second half, Uruguay turned the gametwo to one and they ended up winning
the trophy at Brazil in Brazil.So for them, it was kind of
like the revenge to kind of likeheal themselves from Maracanaso that was in nineteen
(19:38):
fifty and this was kind of likethe vibe and the expectations that the Brazilian
people had in twenty fourteen. Ofcourse it's hard, but they had that
in mind. Yeah, they weretrying to shed themselves from the ghosts of
the Americana. And so, youknow, before we talk about that final
that Argentina played, and it's fairto say that most people, including myself,
(20:03):
expected and wanted to see a BrazilArgentina final in Brazil, but sadly
Brazil had that infamous seven to onebeat down at the hands of the Germans.
Can you tell us a bit moreabout what the mood was like in
the country after that match, becauseit sounds like it was all samba and
excitement before that game. How didit decline after that basically for them was
(20:25):
I mean, I cannot tell firsthand because I'm not Brazilian, but what
you can sense was like a reallytragic outcome. I saw that game in
the house of Brazilian. Brazilian peoplethat they were, I would say they
were not huge fans, but theywere following the game as all the country
was following the game, and theycouldn't believe. They were just kind of
(20:48):
like, you know what, whenyou're just when you're thinking that what you're
seeing is like a joke, it'slike a prank. You know, this
kind of sensation that what you're watchingcannot be and it's not that you are
so I would say in a ina psychological perspective, when they score a
(21:11):
goal against you, you're kind offrustrated, but you are cheering for more,
okay, to tie the game.They score two, and the frustration
grows. They score three, andthen you start kind of like like seeing
the goal so so so far thatyou just start like losing interest. They
score four, five, six,seven, and you just like I don't
(21:33):
care pardon for the word, butfuck it, you know, you know,
it's like that kind of feeling turnthe page and just think about something
else, because if you actually concentrateand put energy and attention towards what you
are seeing on television, it's likeyou get into depression, you understand.
(21:56):
So it's like it's hard to preserveit. It's like a denial process that
you you can have. Yeah,this was the vibe with with Brazilian people.
It's like at some point the lossagainst Germany was was like extreme,
you know, so there were nolike they were no like kind of like
(22:17):
telling the referee that they made thatthey did a mistake, or the or
the difference played bad. This wasthe Spanish. Yeah, the Spanish world
would be going to then it's likethere were no discussion, you know,
and this has an impact. Butthen on the other hand, it's like
a defeat like this for seven againstone, it helps you turn the page,
(22:41):
like turn the page and just focuson the next game, like you
have nothing to there's nothing to talkabout. It just it's too bad,
you know. A spoiler alert.In the twenty fourteen final, Argentina ends
up losing against Germany in extra time. Harvey walk us through that day.
What was going through your mind asin Argentinian witnessing that life. It was,
(23:03):
I would say, the day Ihad been waiting for many, many
years since nineteen ninety, the timeof revenge, the time of seeing Argentina
win the World Cup. On theother hand, as a football fan,
you are always conscious that the winis something really hard to achieve and finals
(23:26):
are super difficult. It's not somethingthat you could be so confident of achieving,
of winning the game. I hadsome experiences with my team Boca Juniors,
playing really important games that you kindof get the vibe on how these
games are played. In my personalside, I was going to I saw
that game with my dad, witha friend of my dad, with his
(23:49):
son, with a close friend oflike a friend, a childhood friend that
I have that we've been watching footballtogether for four years, his dad.
We were kind of like a groupof seven eight Argentinians altogether. Of course,
we went very early to the stadiumand then we started like starting to
(24:10):
fill the party, the celebration,vibe before the before the referee starts the
game. Yes, the first mission. After that it's all suffering, you
know, and the impact of everyplay is like one is like ten times
the kind of like I would saythe emotional the emotional intensity that you are
(24:36):
used to, you are used tofeel, it's it's way higher. And
regarding the game, I always remembera play that happened in the in the
eight minute Argentina had a really clearchance by euy In, which was a
striker, really good striker. Hegot the ball like outside the area,
(24:56):
but he was alone just to runand his shoot and he shoot like and
it went like outside the goal.So it was it was not even a
say bye, by no, you'rethe keeper of Germany. And I remember
the thought I had at that timewas these opportunities you cannot miss in a
World Cup final, because if youmiss these opportunities, like even one,
(25:19):
you are giving a lot of chancesfor the for the rival. Because it's
always these games, you are alwaysplaying against a really powerful rival. The
two teams that are there are topof the top. And in this case,
like with Germany, they had beenthe team that had eliminated Argentina for
the last I think three World Cupsfor twenty fourteen was the third one.
(25:41):
Ten we lost for no. Innineteen ninety we lost the Willows the final.
In nineteen eighty six we won thefinals in two thousand and six,
they kicked us out out were inpenalty shootout. So it was our great
I would say, enemy, youknow, or villain, you know,
(26:03):
the comic thing, you know,the rival. This this is Germany and
we were playing against them. Theywere an amazing team, really well organized,
really a great coach, a greatkeeper. So when you get this
chance and you missed it, youstart you start feeling more tense. You
(26:23):
know. Actually, when you seethe game right now that how many years
had passed? Eight nine years,how, I don't know how many years,
but a lot of time. Youstill feel sad, you still feel
a little bit of frustration. AndI can tell you what happened to me
(26:44):
personally. So the game ended,you were I was kind of numb towards
I could not understand what was happening, Like, oh I was. I
was sure that we lost, butI could not express my emotions. The
environment in Maracana was really tense becausethere were a lot of kind of like
(27:04):
discussions between Argentinas and Brasilias. Youcould you could feel that there was a
lot of tense in the in theenvironment, a lot of tension in the
environment. So I was with mydad and we went to walk into the
Metro and this work was through theof course, to the neighbors of like
the neighborhood of the of the AmericanaStadium. It was kind of like a
(27:26):
danger situation because the Brazilians were celebrating, cheering for Germany, the Argentinas were
some of them were kind of liketelling the Brazilians, like standing up and
telling them, like hey, stoptrying to fight them. It was really
really kind of like a tense environment. So I was feeling nervous and we
got to the Metro and I sitdown in the Metro and I started feeling
(27:48):
safe at the Metro, and fromone moment to another, when I got
in touch with that and I feltsafe, I started crying like a baby
like that in the shoulder of mydad, feeling that we lost an opportunity.
This is the opportunity that I waswaiting and we lost, and this
is what I felt. And thisis how much I filled the World Cup,
you know, like in that WorldCup, I had many many situations
(28:11):
that were over over what what canmy emotions handle? And this was kind
of like the closing this this circlewas losing and feeling we lost an opportunity
and crying like a baby at thein the shoulder of my valve, you
know, which was like a goodmetaphor, like he was supporting me at
this at this What was it likebeing surrounded by your own countrymen after such
(28:36):
a disappointing loss. You mentioned youfound comfort with your your father. Does
it make it easier being surrounded withthem? Yeah, yeah, for sure.
For sure. It's always sharing anegative emotion, It's always makes it
lighter, makes it easier to toaccept, to internalize, for sure.
(28:56):
And and but actually this is kindof interesting because the whole spirit of the
World Cup has something The World Cuphas has something special, and it's it's
kind of like the celebration of theworld. And this is what actually happened
to me. I told you guysthat I cried on the metal back on
(29:21):
the next day. On the nextday, we were renting an apartment in
Real Carnado. We were like agroup of eight people or something. On
the next day, I receive alike, what's that message from a German
friend that I met in California whenI was living in California. This German
friend was there with his brother andthey attended the final and they were champions,
(29:41):
and he told me how we shouldmeet and we had them for dinner,
you know. And this is kindof like the cam camaraderie spirit that
that you can tell in the WorldCup, you know, so to suffer,
like the main the loss, ofcourse, you get support from your
form, from your countrymen, youknow. But then after that you start
(30:04):
realizing that this is a celebration ofthe world and you start sharing adventures.
I was also in twenty eighteen withLoost against France, and I remember like
we were eliminated of the World Cupin the round of sixteen. And once
you digest it, you start feelingthat this is a celebration of the world,
and this is a celebration of sports, and this is magic and this
(30:25):
this is an event that connects people, you know. And I think this
is the vibe that if you don'tgo to to leave a World Cup,
you will you cannot understand it becausethis is this transcends the result of the
World Cup, of your of yournational team, the vibe of connection that
you feel, and this happens inthe World Cup. It's amazing. Yeah,
(30:49):
totally agree, and I think there'sthat's that's what makes it so special
that that feeling of camaraderie transcends sports, transcends the game, and you definitely
feel it. And that's what Imeant earlier about feeling energy that was unlike
anything else, just you know,in for context, I think the world
tries to, you know, pinAmericans versus Russians, and there's this sort
(31:11):
of like they're the enemy and viceversa. I was sitting in a game
and I went to the one.It was round of sixteen, I think
Russia versus quarterfinal, I think quarterfinal, one of the two I can't remember,
but it was Russia versus Croatia.Game ended up going into penalties,
and when they scored in the verylast minute to send it to penalties,
(31:32):
next thing I knew, I washugging and celebrating with the Russians. You
know, it's like America didn't evenmake the World Cup, but that moment
and being in that arena, itwas just like I was rooting for the
home team, so and that washappy for them for the everyday fan.
But fast forward eight years and theFIFA World Cup is going to be hosted
in Qatar. Unlike the other tournament, you decided to attend Onenzadkandina was confirmed
(31:56):
to play in the final. Wasthat an easy decision to make? Actually,
my decision to attend the final wasone hundred percent influenced by the invitation
of a friend before we get intothat World Cup final. You know,
there's in case, you know,our listeners might not be aware. There
were several differences in that tournament comparedto previous editions. For example, the
(32:22):
twenty twenty two World Cup was thefirst time in Arab Nation had hosted the
tournament. It was the first timean Arab team had made it to the
semi finals. It was also thefirst time the event was held during November
and December instead of the usual monthsof like May, June, and July,
and alcohol was not readily available oraccessible compared to some other additions.
(32:43):
How did this tournament compare to othersyou had attended from the fan experience,
Yeah, I would say that thisWorld Cup regarding the characteristics, the characteristics
of Qatar, which is a reallysmall country. It's not a country like
like Brazil with the possibilities that Brazilhas to offer, or even Russia,
(33:05):
or even South Africa or even Germany. Catalystas is a small Middle Eastern country,
and so so my impression was thatmost of the fans and a lot
of Argentina fans stayed for all thework up there, and they didn't have
the intention of of doing a lotof sight seeing. You understand, it
(33:28):
was more of a work cup thatwas focused on football. Okay, So
in a way, what I sawand what I was talking with other Argentina
fans is that they needed, likefrom game to from one game to another
as they waited for five days,they needed to be entertained with with stuff,
(33:49):
you know. Comparing to Brazil,for example, from one game to
another, you could go to Rio, you could visit Rio, then you
could go to South Pala, thenyou could go to Brasila. That could
you could go to the north orto the south. Catar is small.
So the possibilities, I mean,it's objectively small. I don't know the
quantity of square meters, but thejurist attractions are not as much as as
(34:12):
as in a country as Brazil orSouth Africa. So I would say that
the whole fun experience was more basedinto football and was more based into the
activities that the organization could bring tothe audience. And for example, I
know, I know for a factthat there was the Cutari government. They
what they did was they built somesome kind of billas or constructions, like
(34:37):
some neighborhoods aimed for fans that werenot kind of like able to to pay
a hotel like a I would say, four or five star hotels. Okay,
So what they did is they builtthese villas with a really access affordable,
affordable rate and a lot of Argentinaswere staying the and they they started
(35:01):
building like Argentinians Argentinian's neighborhoods that theyended up changing the name. Now they're
called like Argentina Argentina neighborhoods. Youknow, because because of what they were
doing. For example, every daythey were doing barbecues, you know that
this is the typical Argentina thing.As salahs. You know, they were
playing football on the on the streets. This is what they did to to
(35:23):
entertain themselves from game to game.Also, the I would say that the
economic situation of these fans was wasnot allowing them to to travel to to
buy for example, or to othercities in the Middle East. Some of
them could do that, but mostof them were just waiting for the game
and then they need to make thetime went by. So I would say
(35:45):
as a World Cup, sorry,as a World Cup. The the the
type of tourist attractions that Qatar hasto offer is really different for for what
Razil, Russia, South Africa,Germany has to offer, which is a
which is which are bigger countries withwith more more options to to do and
(36:06):
in a cheaper way. I wouldsay, once the Argentinian neighborhoods got established,
I'm sure they opened up a fewmate stands uh that were readily available.
There was there were some instant storiesof Katari locals drinking matte, trying
matte. There was there was areally funny story. There was a really
(36:28):
funny story that I saw social mediaand Instagram of uh, like like this
Shake of Qatar that invited a groupof fans of Argentina to for like a
lamp barbecue. Okay, there's deal. Fands were very I would say,
as we are like extroverted, reallywarm. They were very very close to
(36:51):
the shake and they started singing likelike these soccer chance but they changed the
lyrics in order to to kind ofcheer up and think the Shake of Qatar,
which was crazy like they invented,and the creativity of these fans,
like adapting the songs that they sungfor their favorite players. But for the
(37:13):
shake of Katara, which was crazy. And this is Argentinia and Argentinian creativity
in football, which is very high. I'm not a football fan like Jonas,
but I just I respect the sportsso much simply for moments like that.
I think that's just such a beautifulthing. Going back to the twenty
twenty two World Cup Final, weretheir fears that the game would turn out
like it did the last final?You had seen, yes, always and
(37:37):
this is the this is what Iwas talking about, the nerves that you
could feel. You know, it'slike a I mean, this is the
moment, like a turning point.You know, everything could go amazingly or
everything could go super bad. Andthis it all comes to these ninety minutes
(37:58):
of eleven against the events, andthis fear is always there, you know,
like the fear of we prepared somuch, We put a lot of
energy, we put a lot ofeffort, we put a lot of money
also to get there, and wemight fail or the team might fail,
and we might feel like if Ireally focus on the team, on the
(38:20):
Argentinian team of this World Cup.I was sensing a stronger team. I
was sensing a better better team work. You're you're talking about the camaraderie between
the players or the individual I wouldsay it's a mix of two. I
would say I will put the focuson Messi, our greatest player, on
(38:43):
l Messi. He was we wereseeing a version of him that was more
mature, more grounded, more ofa leader than he was in twenty fourteen.
When you when he was taking thepenalties for example, I guess the
Netherlands or against Croatia, you couldsee that he was not going to fail
(39:05):
this team. The twenty twenty twoteam Argentina team started the World Cup with
a defeat against Saudi Arabia, whichreally really surprised us. But these guys,
they managed to be really resilient towardsthat and basically, for example,
the match against Mexico was very hardand they managed to to take it on.
(39:25):
The match against the Netherland was superhard and they managed to like in
a psychology, in a psychological way, were they were showing signs of being
a really powerful team in a footballway also, but psychologically they were they
were standing strong and you could feelthat yeah, I could feel that,
(39:45):
yeah, yeah, yeah, Iagree that that was a mature and Messi
was kind of like the leader ofthat. There was like a vibe in
the year that was also kind oflike Abiube that we could feel as fans
and support that this team had somethingdifferent, not because of the names.
The name was only because Messi waskind of like the goat and stuff,
(40:08):
but because of the kind of liketeamwork, the kind of vibe of relations
that they were having the coach,the helpers of the coach, the communion
with the fans was also really interestingand you could feel that something was different
about other national teams. Still,we could have lost because it comes to
(40:31):
ninety minutes. It comes to agame that someone can fail and stuff and
everything can turn around in a second. You know. Let me preface this
by saying the twenty twenty two WorldCup Final is touted as one of the
(40:52):
greatest, if not the greatest footballmatch of all time just because of what
it had. We know how thestory ends, and so excuse me if
I'm going to break it down stepby step, but I want to go
here break it down for us.Havi Argandina jumped out to an early two
lead in the first half. Atthat point, did you think it was
(41:15):
over? Were you celebrating? AndI will tell you. I will tell
you some like really, I wouldtell you guys, like an anecdote that
happened to me in half time.Okay, at halftime, Argentina was willing
to know. And the first halfwas Argentina was outstanding. We were playing
amazingly. Okay, we don't believeour eyes because we're really like France name
(41:39):
my name by name. It's amore more powerful team than than than our
team. Okay, but regarding whatwe were showing on the field, on
the pitch, Argentina was playing amazingly. So the first half ends, I
turned, I turned myself back andI see a guy older than me crying.
(42:00):
Okay, and he was saying hewas telling me I've always wanted to
see Argentina win the World Cup andnow we are doing it. And I
said, like, I said,like no, no, no, no,
no, my friend, I mean, this is not like this.
We still have the second half,we still need to play that and in
front we have France and France.I mean to celebrate, you have to
(42:22):
win you know, and in afootball game, reality can change in a
matter of a second, in areally dedicated in a short, in a
short, in a glimpse of time, it could change. And this is
what happened. And this guy,I I haven't recalled getting back to him,
but I really feel like was Iwas good with with what I told
(42:45):
him, Like, bro, becareful because France is France, and they
have amazing players. They have,they have column money, they have they
have yeah yeah, I mean theyhave a lot of prayers and they could
turn around the situation in a second. And sure it happened. And that's
exactly exactly that. That's within thespan of a few minutes, and Babbis
(43:06):
scored a brace. That's two goals. They end up trying the game to
to to send it into overtime andalmost one. At the end of those
ninety minutes, were you and otherArgentinian fans thinking you had blown your chance?
As I as I told you guys, I was always believing in the
teams, always been living in theteam. And if you see the game
(43:29):
Argentina, I want to bring asituation that was kind of clear that also
it's kind of a situation of kindof like how funs approach these kind of
games. Argentina was winning. Toknow, some of the Argentina and fans,
Argentina was passing the ball in areally being a really protagonist of the
(43:53):
game, and some of the fanswe're seeing like holy, holy, holy,
this is what what we call whenwhen the match is sober, you
know, and from one moment toanother, and course two one penalty and
the second one is an amazing playthat he should like like without letting the
(44:15):
yeah, it almost looks like amazing, amazing, And after that, I
would say that that our spirits werenot broken. We were used to a
team that showed us in many situationsalong the World Cup that they were standing
up, that they had this thistalent of standing up when when the situation
(44:38):
was telling them to stand up whenwhen they were positive. For example,
the Netherlands, we were to know. And then we went to to and
we went to penalties, and theextra time Argentina was playing much better than
the Netherlands and we finally we endedup beating them on on penalties. So
I would say that the psychology andthe strength of this team was showing us
(44:59):
that we still needed to believe onthem, and this is this is I
think that this this aspect of believingin a team was also an aspect that
made them win. There was aphrase that was really popular in Argentina at
that time and it was called theSpanish world was alego career, I choose
to believe. And everybody was tellinglike, do you think that we will
(45:22):
win? And we were we weresaying, eligo career, I choose to
believe. And it helped the teamthat we were all like on the same
I would say, in the samebus, on the on the same track.
We were all cheering for that andwe were all choosing to believe even
when we were too too after beingto know. We were choosing to believe
because we believe in those players.We live in Messi, we will leave
(45:45):
in the coach, we believe inin the the the crazy keeper that we
have which is a great character JenoMartinez di Wu, which these guys really
stood up for the shirt for thecountry. And and this is this was
what we were feeling. We werenervous, but in the down of our
experience, we were feeling that we'rechoosing to believe we could do it and
(46:09):
really up doing it. To addto that drama. The game goes into
overtime and then another two goals arescored. I'm sure at some point you
feel like, hey, maybe theyhave it in the bag. But and
Boppis scores a third goal to makeit a hat trick in a World Cup
final. The game goes to apenalty shootout, and I can't think of
anything more nerve wracking, because I'veseen a Champion League final in twenty sixteen
(46:31):
Rama Drivers of Atletico, in whichI went into penalty shootouts, and I
remember the feeling in my stomach thinkingthat I was going to ship myself from
so much anxiety. What was Whatwere those penalty shootouts like? For you?
Was time standing still? I willget a personal story two ill stort
(46:54):
a little bit about this. Sothe match was December eighteen two. Okay,
February fifteen of the next year,of twenty twenty three, I go
to the doctor. Okay, Iwas having digestive problems. She tells me.
The doctor tells me, are yousuffering stress? And I tell her
(47:16):
I've been suffering for the consequences ofthe World Cup. And this is true.
My stomach was wasted and I'm aguy that barely drinks, tried to
take be careful with food and stuff. But this World Cup was way another
level. Like the nerves that wehad was way another level. Also in
(47:37):
my particular experience, like planning soclose to the limit of the match was
also kind of like nerve wreaking.And the penalties was kind of like the
strawberry and the research. You know, this is kind of like the last
dance in a way. The greatthing was also that the penalties were in
(48:02):
the in the in the goal thatI was just behind. I can show
you guys pictures that there are picturesthat Messi is shooting his penalty and I'm
there, you know. So Iwas like a privilege. I had like
a privileged seat next to all theArgentina Argentina fans, and this was kind
(48:22):
of like the feeling that we had. On the other hand, we knew
that our keeper was very good.We knew that our keeper was very good
in penalties. In the Coup Americatwo years before that was celebrated in Brazil,
this guy demonstrated us that he wasa penalty stopper. A guess the
Netherlands, he was a penalty stopperand now in the final, we believed
(48:45):
in him and he didn't let usdown. You know, we trusted him
and then everything came, you know, everything came. The Argentinian kickers,
messy Parees, divala, what amontiel. They did a they did what
(49:06):
what it took, you know,they scored from a moment to another.
We were crying like babies, andI was not the only one. I
would say, like eighty percent oftheir genial fans we were. We were
crying and we couldn't emotionally believe whatwe were seeing. This was if you
see the Argentina players and you seethe way they celebrated, you would see
(49:30):
that they couldn't react in a logicalway. They were throwing themselves to the
floor. They couldn't like kind oflike support the the intensity of that emotion,
of that positive emotion. It wasamazing in that way. And we
still, as Argentina's one year after, we still get together and we talk
(49:51):
about that moment and I think itwill it will last until until the end
of our days. You know,these memories of winning the World Cup and
you were there, my friend inperson. No, I honestly want to
say, I'm not even a LeonelMessi fan. I'm a huge Cristiano Ronaldo
fanatic, and you'll never convince methat Messi is better than Ronaldo. But
(50:13):
that's a discussion for a different podcast. But in truth, I was happy
for it, for Messi and forthe Argentina fans. It was incredible to
see. And so you know,I'm happy for you, not only because
you were there, but because you'rea friend, a good person, and
so congratulations for that memory. Butbefore we kind of wrap up here,
I just want to ask you ifsomeone was if someone was interested in going
(50:38):
to a World Cup and they wereasking you, like, hey, Hawvey,
should I go or should I notgo? Well, why would you
say you have to go? Ithink it's first of all, in my
personal opinion, and I think youguys might agree. Sport, whatever sport,
(51:00):
it's kind of like a world connectorin the case of football, it's
the most popular sport in the world. And if you guys travel and you
know about football, you can alwaysconnect with people from all over the world.
I mean, for example, whenI was in Africa, I remember
being in San Siva. I wentto a bar and I was watching a
Liverpool game with locals and we started, we always started a conversation with football.
(51:24):
So I would say football is likethe global the global connector. Sports
are a global connector, but footballparticularly is like it's global. It it's
easy to play, it's easy forpeople to empathize with football. So first
of all, let's bring what footballbrings for the people. Second, let's
(51:45):
let's bring that a World Cup islike the it's like the event of the
events. If you compare it,for example, with the super Bowl.
With the super Bowl is just forthe US, it's really popular, and
also it's once a year. Alot of when are just waiting to see
this event. Football is for thewhole world. So we're we're talking to
an audience that basically involves ellis yeah, billions, and also it involves this
(52:14):
kind of like representation of the country. Okay, So so that's a fact.
Another fact is that you would seefor example, football superstars on the
on the field defending their home countries, where money is kind of like on
a second, it's not the mainaspect. What they want to do is
(52:34):
is glory is personal. Glory iskind of getting them to the feeling that
they had when they started defending theirtheir flag, their families, their their
their traditions, you know, onthe pitch. So for me, I
would say that the the the pridethat you see people from Peru that they're
(52:57):
playing the World Cup, people fromcro Asia, people from South Africa,
people from Trinidad and Tobago, fromCosta Rica, from Senegal, seeing their
players represent their country is something thatyou have to feel it with your own
eyes. This is kind of likeand it's not only about the game.
Is what happens in the in thepre game next to the stadium it was,
(53:20):
is what happened on the bars,on the on the center of the
city. Is what happens that everybodyis showing their shirt when they walk around
and you talk about I don't know. I remember meeting fans from Sweden,
talking about football with them, aboutlife with them, meeting people from Peru,
from Russia, from the US,from It's like a lot of the
(53:45):
problems that you can see in inin political issues for example, they're they're
forgotten. In the World Cup.It's for me, it's an event that
you cannot miss if you if youlove the concept of traveling, sharing,
learning, other cultures, and especiallygetting this kind of like passion and energy
(54:08):
for something that involves your traditions.You know, this is what the word
gup represents. Yeah, when youwere mentioning how football just connects with all
different cultures, every country is involved. I like to think about it as
sports is sound and football is music. Everyone has a connection to it,
(54:30):
so that's a beautiful thing. Harvey, thank you so much for being a
guest on our show for the secondtime, delivering per usual. If our
guests want to learn more about you, please tell them where that can they
find you and tell them a bitmore about who you are and what you
do and how you view travel asa form of psychology. Basically, my
(54:53):
profession is I'm a psychologist. Idid a lot of my studies in that
field that I have a license fromArgentina, and in the past years I've
been studying and trying to apply themthe bond that psychology and traveling has,
so I like always to analyze thepower of traveling, adapting it and integrating
(55:22):
it with personal change, with thechange of a personal perspective. And this
is what I do and this iswhat I'm working on. I have a
method I developed that I explain inanother episode that I'm trying to apply in
this upcoming year twenty twenty four ina in a TV project that I'm starting
(55:45):
to produce, that I want totake people on trips in order to help
them change applying this method that Ithink it could. It could change the
way people travel nowadays for a moreI would say, shows, and and
and a way that they could theycould use traveling to to promote their own
(56:06):
personal change. This is what Ido. This is what I'm doing every
day. And they can find meon my Instagram, which right now is
a closed account, but they canstill follow me. Maybe at some point
in the next days I will openit again, which is at heavy j
A b I l A b ou r T heavy labourd. This is
(56:30):
my Instagram. They can I havea website that I haven't used much but
I which is w w w dotheavy labourd dot com. As my name
have you from Cavier l A bo u r T. They can write
me over there. We can bein touch if they are interested in in
(56:52):
seeing of more of what I do. So basically I already talk about it,
but travel and psychology are kind ofmy two pillars and let's sad a
little bit football also right, yeah, the third pillar. Yeah, and
if you want to learn about thatthird pillar, definitely tuned back to episode
(57:15):
twelve so you can find out moreabout Hovey and his live method and travel
psychology. But if you want tolearn a little bit more about us,
but you can do so by visitingour website at www dot gtspodcast dot com.
You can find us on Instagram orFacebook at Globetrotter's Podcast, Twitter or
x at globetrot Pod. Make sureyou drop us a review on Apple Podcasts
(57:37):
or Spotify. If you enjoyed listeningto this conversation, editing was done by
our very own Jonathan Otero. Thanksfor listening.
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