GTL: Coaches Corner + Taba Dale, Author & Owner of Taba Inc.

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 3 (00:44):
Improve from tea to green.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Welcome to Golf Talk Live with your host Ted Oto Rico.
Join Ted each week as he speaks with some of
the best in golf. This week's special guest will join
us a bit later. But first up is another great
discussion on Coaches Corner, So let's introduce tonight's Coaches Corner Panel.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
All right, good evening, everybody, and once again welcome to
Golf Talk Live. I'm your host Ted Orto Rico, and
we've got a great show for you this evening. As always,
we're gonna be starting things off here in just a
moment with another great discussion on the coaches Corner panel
and then a little bit later on, I'm going to
be speaking with this setning special guest. Her name is
Taba Dale, and she is an author and owner of Taba, Inc.
And we're going to be talking about her new book

(01:28):
a little bit later on in the broadcast. I'll tell
you more about that as we get a little bit closer.
But let me just get things started on Coaches Corner
and then I will introduce tonight's panelists. This segment of
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your next order. All right, let me introduce the panel

(02:13):
and then we'll get into the tonight's discussion. First up
is John Hughes. He is a PJA Master Professional and
the honorary president of the North Florida PGA Section, and
he was also the recipient of the twenty thirteen PGA
of America's Professional Development Award. He's a senior contributing editor
and Golf Tips magazine Top twenty five instructor and also

(02:34):
the North Florida PGA Teacher of the Year and Coach
of the Year in twenty twenty three. Also on the
panel tonight is Clint Wright, a thirty plus year member
of the PGA and one of the partners at TGM Golf.
TGM Golf, of course, is a big proponent of the
R three approach and I certainly consider him to be
among one of the best to have covered the short game.

(02:56):
And both of these guys are among my favorites on
the Code This Corner panel. So, John and Clint, welcome
to the show.

Speaker 4 (03:04):
Y glad to be here.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Ted, all right, well, I appreciate it. Always good to
have you guys. So tonight we're going to talk about
the role of the golf coach, and We've got a
few different things and I'm gonna do things a little
bit differently tonight I'm going to actually have two questions
for each of you each turn, and so we'll start

(03:28):
with the one and then there'll sort of be a
follow up where you can sort of close off. So
I'm going to start, if you don't mind, I'm going
to start with John first. And John, the first thing
I think I want to ask you is what the
role of the coach in helping to guide practice session.
So you can certainly pick any level of golfer, maybe

(03:49):
an intermediate golfer, might even be a collegiate golfer level
or beyond, But give us some examples of what you're
going to do to help sort of guide their practice sessions,
because it's gonna be a little bit different than you know,
just sort of teaching them fundamentals and things like that.
You're gonna actually help guide them and structure a proper

(04:09):
practice session for them and then let them go from there.
So give us some examples if you wouldn't mind, and
then I've got my follow up a question as well, Derek.

Speaker 5 (04:19):
Thanks as always, Ted for having me on, Clint. Good
to hear from you. Good to hear your voice again,
I should say, Ted in your description of the question,
it's sort of summed up what a good coach does.
It keeps things organized, or he or she should keep
things organized. There should be behind what's going on with
your practice, no matter what the skill level, and it's

(04:42):
the coach's job to help guide you through that purpose,
to help guide you through the organization of your practice,
not necessarily tell you what's practice, so much as to
provide you the reasons why you're practicing what's you're practicing.
Its not necessarily a lesson per se and that's where

(05:04):
most people get things a little miscombobulated. Where I'm coming
to practice, but I need I need help, I need information,
I need to learn something new. You really need to
come to a practice session with a plan and communicate
that to your coach or allow the coach to dictate

(05:25):
the plan to you. It doesn't matter how it comes.
But practice is about taking what you've already learned, applying it,
testing it, being how far you can take yourself with
that new found skill, and being able to apply it on.

Speaker 4 (05:42):
The golf course at some point.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well said, and I think just to sort of add
to that and certainly correct me if I'm wrong, But
really the role, one of the roles of the coach obviously,
as you point out, is to sort of they're going
to come to you with maybe specific goals that they
want to achieve, but maybe you're going to help guy
to make sure they're staying realistic to their abilities, or

(06:08):
certainly at that point you might even get more involved
in helping them, as you said, design practice routines or
plans on how to work on specific things that maybe
need to be worked on, and obviously helping them to
be more time management efficient. But then you're also going
to be there to kind of help them stay focused
and motivated.

Speaker 5 (06:27):
Correct Absolutely, when the drudgery sets in a practice, which
there should never be too much trugery, but when it
does sit in, when the frustration's there, the coach is
there to help you work through the frustration, not necessarily
help you work through something new if we're going to

(06:48):
discover anything new. It's about how you handle the adversity,
how you handle the frustration, and the process in which
you're going to work through it. That's really what a
coach's job is when it comes to practice. It's to
guide it, to organize, help you organize it, help keep
it organized. When you hit some rough spots in the road,

(07:08):
what can we do to get you through that with
you making good decisions for yourself and having that coach
to bounce those decisions off of us.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Right, great point. And then the second half of this
is really sort of works part and parcel, and that
is being able to as a coach to provide some
good feedback and also corrections where needed. So maybe you
can give us maybe an example or two of where
you feel the coaches this role is important and what
do you consider obviously the difference between constructive feedback and

(07:44):
maybe where a coach is giving feedback that's not productive.
So maybe just give an example of where you feel
this is what I'm going to do to give them
a sort of good feedback and maybe even correcting some
issues that maybe you know have having it at this
point and how we can straighten out moving forward. So
give us some examples of that and maybe some don't.
I guess dos and don't from a coach's perspective on

(08:08):
what kind of feedback is going to be constructive and
what kind of feedback is going to be detrimental to
the process.

Speaker 5 (08:13):
So I think first for anybody to understand is the
brain has zero definition for the phrase you just use
don't don aposture fet The word NT is not segmented
in our brain. It's not there. So when you tell
yourself don't hit it in the water, when you're trying

(08:33):
to carry a part three, what are you telling yourself
Let's hit it in the water. So, from a stylistic
standpoint of view, the feedback I provide my golfers my
clients is what are they doing and how do you
want to make it different? What are you feeling and
how should it feel different? When we're going through a

(08:57):
learning a coach in its truck type coaching session, it's
all about those feelings. It's all about those differences and
being able to catalog it during a practice that's supervised
by a coach. My job from feedback standpoint is to
ask those why questions and to ask those foul questions.

(09:18):
How is it feeling different? Why are you doing it
this way? Can we pinpoint where your swing has become unbalanced,
where that's causing some of the issues you're feeling. It's
not necessarily to tell somebody what they're doing. You don't
have a coach or a caddy for the most part,
out in the golf course, telling you what to do.

(09:39):
Our job is to have you understand that your brain
wants to do something, and we should phrase it in
that manner. What are you doing, how are you doing it,
what are you feeling? Why are you feeling it? And
if we can get to those answers and help you
get to those answers on your own, whether it be

(10:00):
through rational just deduction of problems, we're feeling the differences
between what it is you want to do versus what
it is you're attempting to avoid doing. Then that that's
what our goal is. That's what our job is for
you during a supervised practice session.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
Great points John as always in and I think you
hit everything right on the head. You know, the role
of the coach is is not just too you know,
it is not just to sort of set the parameters out,
but it's also there to guide and redirect if needed.

(10:42):
And I think that that's what people that are coming
to you. You know, certainly in the beginning, you know,
we're talking about things more about the mechanics of the
swing in a teaching session, and then we're talking about
other issues as well that come along. But when we're
actually coaching them, it becomes something more. It's helping them,
you know, develop goals, helping you know, realize those goals,

(11:04):
and setting a plan of action that's going to help
them accomplish that. So thank you for that. And there
are many other things that you had pointed out there
as well, So some great, great points, Thank you, John Clint.
This one I'm gonna give you is again there gonna
be two questions. I'll ask you the first one here
and this is really going to talk about the mental
aspect of practice. So I think this area here is

(11:26):
one that gets overlooked a lot, especially by some of
a higher handicap golfers, but even at really any level,
it can it can creep up on you. And that
is developing a positive mindset. So I think it's just
important or as important, excuse me to delve into the
physical aspect of the game, but keeping a positive mindset
is crucial I think for effective practice and improvement. So

(11:47):
maybe give us some examples or given us an example
of really how you would approach that to ensure they're
getting the most I guess ability from the mind game
that's going to help them produce obviously a better game overall,
but help them stay more focused in the practice, how
do you help them with develop a positive mindset?

Speaker 6 (12:09):
Well, I think it's hard to help somebody have that
positive mindset. They either either going to come to a
work session. I typically don't even want to call it practice.
So much is about what am I work? What am
I coming here to work on? And I think the
positive attitude about it stems from having a clear purpose.

(12:33):
As John was saying, what's your purpose for being here today?
You know, from a teacher and a coach standpoint, the
question I want to ask them is what are you
here to do today?

Speaker 4 (12:43):
And if you have a.

Speaker 6 (12:44):
Clear understanding of what your purpose is today, then you
can maintain a real, you know, connected or focused mindset.
I don't know if it necessarily has to be positive,
but it has.

Speaker 4 (12:55):
To be focused on what you came there to do.

Speaker 6 (12:58):
And as long as you're making progress towards what you
come to work on, then I think you have to
recognize that as being a positive outcome of the time
and efforts are spending at that.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
Particular point in time.

Speaker 6 (13:14):
So I think the way that you come there to
maintain a good focused mental state, whether you know, we
hope it to be positive, it's more of a focused
mental state is to come to understand what you're there
to do, have a clear understanding of it. And importantly,
when you've accomplished it, and you feel comfortable you've accomplished it,

(13:35):
you need to go on to something else. Because I
see people that'll work theirselves out of a good swing
about as quick as they work theirself into one, you know,
because they, yeah, they get bored with it, you know,
they stopped going through the process. I think one of
the things that John alluded to a bit about coaching
versus teaching. If I consider myself a coach, I'm going

(13:58):
to set the pace of that work session, and I
do that by running my mouth a little too much.

Speaker 4 (14:03):
I start talking to them, you know, slow.

Speaker 6 (14:06):
Them down, get them refocused. If you see them getting quicker,
they're not getting set up time. It's really important for
us to help them say, Okay, you know, how's everything
going today?

Speaker 4 (14:17):
What do you feel?

Speaker 6 (14:18):
You know, let's talk about talk to them a little bit,
have a conversation, brings them back okay, And then the
thing that I will do most importantly is reminding them,
so tell.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
Me again what you were here to do today.

Speaker 6 (14:31):
You know, maybe I'm getting old, I forgot what you
really told me. To refocus them on what they come
there to accomplish. And if you do that, I think
it stems again repeating it, it stems from you having
a clear understanding of what you're there for. If I
show up at the practice area to just hit balls,
I mean, once I hit two or three bad ones,

(14:53):
my attitude is not going to be real good. But
if I come there with the purpose of working on
certain aspects of my swing technique, then I can then
I can maybe accept some poor results as long as
I'm working my way towards those improvements in there, my
technique along the way. But if I just come out

(15:13):
there to hit balls, I mean, to my opinion, is
a waste of time and effort.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
Yeah, well said. And and you know whether whether they
look at it as a practice session or a working
session really isn't Yeah, yeah, it is, you know the
same thing. And again, sometimes looking at things you know
in the correct perspective can make a world of difference.

(15:38):
And again I understand what you're saying about positive attitude.
And now I think it's more open minded. I think
I like to have people come in that are more
open minded and receptive, uh, you know, to looking at
other options. You know, they come in with you know
sometimes and we've seen this, I think all three of
us could have attest to this. We've seen students that
come maybe have worked with others, and that's not as
a criticism, but maybe they've come in or they've you know,

(15:59):
watched a bunch of you know, videos or what have you,
and they come in with a preconceived set of ideas
and they're very slow to want to you know, make changes,
but yet they're not improving. So the second component to
this part of it, Clint, is obviously practice and working
sessions can sometimes be frustrating, particularly if the progress seems

(16:22):
slow or or there's maybe some setbacks have occurred. So
how do how do you help them overcome some of
these practice frustrations because they're going to have them. I mean,
it's it's not you know, it's not rocket science. They're
going to have some frustrations. So are there some things
that you've found. Is it you know, breathing techniques that
you have subscribed to that work for you, or you know,

(16:43):
or whatever whatever it is that you've found to be
successful for you. When you see somebody struggling with with
that session. How do you help them overcome some of
those frustrations.

Speaker 6 (16:51):
Well, yeah, I think it comes back to how I
segment out what you call practice can work it. If
I've got a person that wants to come out and practice,
I would tell say, Okay, you're here to practice something
you already.

Speaker 4 (17:08):
Know how to do. Right, you practice that means.

Speaker 6 (17:11):
I know how to do it, or rehearsal. I'm here
to confirm or to solidify something I already.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
Know to do.

Speaker 6 (17:20):
That's practice. I'm practicing my lines, I'm practicing my swing,
I'm practicing my putting stroke. In my mind, if I'm
practicing something, I have a clear understanding of what I'm doing.
I know how to do it. I just need to
continue to remind myself this is what I do. But
if you're coming to want to improve a technique, then

(17:42):
I want you to visualize that as work. And when
I'm working on something, in my opinion, what I try
to get them to stay segmented on. If I'm working
on something, that doesn't mean I know how to do it.
I'm trying to learn how to do something.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
When I'm working to improve.

Speaker 6 (17:59):
Then once I work my way into that improvement. Then
that's when I want to come. You can call it practice.
I really look at it as maintaining. I want to
maintain what I have. That's what I do when i'm practicing.
But if I'm in that work session, I've come there
to try to do something different, not reconfirm what I

(18:20):
already know to do that's successful. So in my mind
when they came, I said, Okay, are you here to
practice something that you already know how.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
To do, or we're going.

Speaker 6 (18:28):
To work on something new. If you're working on something new,
you have to understand that it's not going to be automatic,
that it's going to get better. It may not get
better today, it may be better next week. But if
you're working to improve something, you have to give yourself
some patience, give yourself some room to work on different

(18:51):
things that you don't know how to do that you
say you want to. That's a work session. That's learning
how to improve or learning something new, And when you're
doing that, you have to give yourself time. And from
my standpoint, I try to convince that okay, you hit.
If we're working on something maybe long term, hey you

(19:12):
achieved it three times a day out of ten. The
next session, hey, well we got which you did five
or seven out of ten, So we're getting better at it.
And then when we can achieve it, maybe eighty percent
of the time, that's when we say, okay, you got it.
Into my mind, one of the most important things for
a teacher to work with a student and coaching is say,
you know, what you're doing is good enough. Let's not

(19:35):
spend much more time trying to make this better technique.
Maybe let's talk about how you're going to use your
technique now when you're out playing. And that to me
is a critical shift from learning the technique or learning
how to use your technique.

Speaker 4 (19:51):
And many, many, many times.

Speaker 6 (19:53):
You never see that person shift over to how to
use the technique. They just continue to try to work on.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
On the move versus.

Speaker 6 (20:02):
Trying to learn how to play with that move once
you've got an accomplished So in my mind, I just
try to keep them understanding that if they're trying to
improve a technique, you have to be patient with yourself
and and I think that's part of my role as
a coach teacher is to keep them patient as they
move through that work site, work time.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, and that's a really good point. A lot of
great points, but that particular is a really good one
because patience is something that a lot of golfers of
all levels we have noticed. Oh you are, yeah, I
mean it's it's a very challenging game. It has its
you know, frustrations, and but also has its rewards. But

(20:45):
if it takes a lot of patience, especially if you
want to see improvement, you've got to put work in
as you as you suggested. And again, depending on the
level of player you want to become dictates the level
of input. So if you want to become a better player,
a really good player, then you're gonna have to put
more work in and it but it has to be
obviously done in such a way that it's productive and

(21:08):
that it's you're seeing results. And if you're not seeing results,
then there's really two things that come into mind. Is
either you're not putting the effort in or the efforts
that you are putting in are not seeing results because
maybe they're not correct. So that's why it's important to
have a coach along there to help guide you and
point out some of the things that are going on.
But yeah, you've got to have a lot of patience

(21:28):
for this game. Great points, Clint, John, gonna come back
to you. Yeah, I'm going to come back to you
John on this and again, uh, sort of a two
part thing. Gonna focus on sort of the pre shot routine.
I know we've talked about the pre shot routine. You
can certainly, you know, touch on a little bit, but
I want to focus on really two areas. The first

(21:49):
one is the reducing of anxiety. Golf is you know,
we're sort of on this this mind game theme again.
You know, golf as much as a mental game as
it is a physical one. Anxiety, nerves, that sort of
thing can impact players and performance. So what are some
things that you have found sort of tried and true.

(22:10):
Obviously incorporating maybe a pre shot routine an effective one
is going to help reduce anxiety. What are maybe some
other things that you want to point out as well?
And then I'll ask to follow up to it.

Speaker 5 (22:20):
For the thing that I have seen over the years,
I think Clint has seen this too. A higher handicapper
comes with a routine, they don't even know they have
the routine. As a coach, we're there to point out
that routine creates consistency, routine, decision making, routine, set up routine,

(22:44):
thoughtfulness and envisioning of what you're going to do, and
those things should alleviate some anxiety. And from there I
see the cycle going the completely opposite direction, where people
are thinking too much. They're putting too much effort into
a routine. They're trying to overdramatize it to a bit

(23:06):
over detail it and the details aren't necessarily in the
same order each time, as well as there could be
a different priority with each routine, therefore making it not
a routine. Where I see the higher handicap are going
from a mid to a really solid player in the

(23:27):
low double digits to high single digit handicap their ability
to morph their routine to fit the element that they're in,
and what I mean by that is very simply, as
they become a better golfer, their routines become better, but

(23:50):
their understanding of when to deviate from it, meaning before
they ever swing. How do I have to set up
differently for the shot? How do I need to prepare
myself to hit the shot? What should it look like?
Can I see envision myself doing this? And as a coach,
we're there to help guide you through that and to

(24:12):
point out that it's okay. The cycle you're in, the
ups and downs of that routine based on where you
are from an experience and skill level. At the most
elite levels, routine boils down to once the decisions are made,
once you can envision yourself hitting a particular shot, and

(24:35):
once you've gone through some rehearsals, which in itself can
alleviate some anxiety. It becomes very robotic what you see
on TV. But there's a purpose to it because that
creates somewhat of a teflon effect for you to keep
the distractions away so that part of anxiety is not

(24:56):
part of your issues.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
If there's going to.

Speaker 5 (24:59):
Be any anxiety, it's going to come from within yourself
and going back to practicing, and I agree with Clint,
it's critical that you learn to use skills on the
golf course. It's not until then that you build trust
within yourself. Thrust builds confidence. Those two things ward off anxiety.

(25:19):
When you're thinking about the things you're trusting, you're doing
the thinking in the same order and building that confidence
to know, hey, I can do this out on the
golf course. Anxiety has more to do with how much
pressure at that point that you put yourself under. You've
worked through the cycle, You've worked through understanding that you

(25:41):
were in a routine, but it wasn't necessarily a healthy routine,
and as you became a better golfer, that routine became
better along the way.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
Yeah, some really really great points, John, And I think
the and I know you've kind of alluded to a
little bit in this in this response, but maybe you
could you could touch on some other things. But one
of the things, I mean, concentration is a big one.
And how do we foster that concentration obviously using things

(26:13):
like the pre shot routine, getting them organized, because that's
what we often see a lot of times, they're very
unorganized and they're standing over the ball. They're not really
I mean, they might take a quick look. So how
do we What are some things that you can do
to help block out some of those external distractions. Is
it finding that pre shot routine as an example, is

(26:33):
it other techniques or other ways of you know, ramping
up the concentration level to allow them to, you know,
disregard what's going on around them and focus on the
task at hand. What needs to happen here? If we
want to foster a better concentration for the players.

Speaker 5 (26:51):
Great question. You just use two terms that are different,
concentrate versus focus. Focus comes from the eyes. Focus comes
from visualize and that's why I use the term in vision,
where concentration is deflecting the distractions. It's keeping your mind
in the moment versus thinking outside the moment, whether in

(27:13):
the past or into the future. One of the things
I get my clients early on to do, particularly if
they're higher or mid henicappers who are struggling with a routine,
is for them to realize that there's been a lot
of science and a lot of research dollars spent on
our telephone numbers being two sets of three in a

(27:35):
set of four. There's reasons for that. We remember sets
of three's best, We remember sets of four second dusters.
Can you take your routine and repeat it as your
area code? For example, I have a four oh seven
area code. Can I take each one of those digits
and call it four oh seven? But four means something

(27:58):
else and zero I means something else, in seven means
something else, And I'm always repeating in that order. Four, zero,
seven and four could be a in the club zero
could be ball position, seven could be balance, It could
be a lot of different things, but it's all pre shot.
And what I'm getting to is this, what if you

(28:19):
kept repeating that four oh seven in a cadence, in
a cadence that you can now swing and react to.
Is that's the difference between Dolph and almost all other sports.
We have to create reaction and can you take your
pre shot routine make it such that you're reacting. Is
if you're marching to a drummer and you're lifting that

(28:42):
left leg first to get into cadence with everybody else
in the band, but it's you, It's it's not everybody else.
Can I get into that cadence that I can react
to repeating my tele my area code over and over.
I've done a couple of blog posts about songs that
I've had in my head that I would swing to
that creates a rhythm, a timing mechanism, And that's where

(29:06):
a really good free shot routine metamorphosizes. For the highly
skilled player, they're using that routine to not only help
them organize and order what they're going to do when
they're going to do it. By repeating it, it takes
their brain off of what they're trying to attempt to
do in their swing. It leaves it allows the mind

(29:30):
to be more free to swing versus worrying about things,
because the worry is the anxiety you're trying to avoid
by having this cadence to take your mind off of that,
and all you're doing is repeating yourself four oh seven
four o seven, four of seven and reacting to that.
Every time I've given that to a mid to high handicapper,

(29:53):
they're amazed at what they're capable of doing, not making
be mindless what they're doing.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
You know, those are some really really good points, John,
And it is it's really about teaching the players too.
And I like your your your example here of the
area code. I mean by you know, giving each number,
you know something specific and it's easy for them to remember.
Everybody remembers their area code. I really like that because

(30:25):
I think that this is you know, when it comes
to golfers. Obviously, the better players, as they continue and
obviously with the amount of practice and working on their game,
become very organized. A lot of our amateur golfers have
high handicapped governers are very unorganized. So if you can
give them a tool to adapt to their you know,
with their preshot routine that now allows them to recall

(30:48):
it at will, and with a little bit of practice,
they can get into that good solid routine and that
good sort of muscle memory, if you will, in their
mind to be able to accomplish what they need to accomplish.
And I think over time, you know, very quickly, mind you,
they're going to be able to again focus on on
a much better way and deal with many of the

(31:11):
things that you talked about. So I really like that.
That's a great example. Thank you for that, Clint. I'm
going to come back to you and we're going to
talk about the post shot routine a little bit, and
the first part of it that I want you to
touch on is really learning from each shot. The value
of the post shot routine obviously lies in the ability

(31:32):
to transform every stroke into a learning opportunity. So whether
it's the outcomes positive or negative, there's always a lesson
to that we can be gleaned, if you will, So
give us an example. What can we and if you
want to do both of them, but both positive negative,
what we should be take player and how the coach
can help that player learn from each shots out in
the golf course.

Speaker 6 (31:55):
Well, you know, I don't know if there's a positive
or negative. I think that it comes down to emotional level.
You know, we can all get too high if we
get out there and we start playing really good, or
our emotions start going to adrenaline starts flowing and we maybe, you.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
Know, let it get away from us a little bit.

Speaker 6 (32:16):
On the other end, you know, if you're not playing
real well, like yesterday, I had one of those days,
and you just had one of those days.

Speaker 4 (32:24):
I mean, sometimes that's what it is.

Speaker 6 (32:26):
So the way I always looking is I want to prepare, perform,
and analyze.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
Okay, I want to prepare to hit.

Speaker 6 (32:33):
The before I go to play. I'm gonna go to
the practicing I'm and to prepare for it. I'm gonna
get loosened up. I'm going to then see how my
performance was warming up. Paying attention to that makes some
judgments say I feel pretty good about it, and and
I do like John's idea about the area code. But
one of the things I think that we use is

(32:54):
a ready set go. We're gonna be ready, we're gonna
set the club, and then we're gonna go. So some
of the same kind of little mantra things.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
Works out really good.

Speaker 6 (33:03):
But I think from a shot the shot standpoint is
that you're standing up over it. You have to give
in this anxiety we talk about or nervousness. You have
to give yourself an opportunity and to realize it's okay
if I don't hit a good shot here, it's all right.

(33:23):
It's kind of like a three foot putts. I want
to make all of them I can, but it's okay
if I miss one ever.

Speaker 4 (33:29):
Down then so just make it much easier for me
to make more of them.

Speaker 6 (33:33):
If it's not so much pressure that I'm having.

Speaker 4 (33:37):
To make every one of them.

Speaker 6 (33:39):
To feel positive, that basically is a setup for failure.
You're not going to make them all. So if your
point of staying positive and staying feeling good about what
you're doing is making them all good swings, then you're
going to drift into a negative thought pattern pretty quick.
So what I try to do is get people to

(34:00):
from a post shot analysis, and we use the word
is it serviceable?

Speaker 4 (34:07):
Was it okay? Was it the best shot you've hit today?
Maybe not?

Speaker 6 (34:11):
Was it the worst shot you hit today? Probably not,
But it was usable. It was down range in the fairway.
I didn't vomit out there three hundred and fifty yards.
I only hit it two ninety. But I'm capable of
hitting it much further. But on that particular swaying, I
didn't quite flush it, but it was okay. It was

(34:33):
all right, you know. And so if I give myself
the luxury of not hitting every shot just perfect and
not even the point of expecting to do that, then
I can maintain a good level, you know, emotional state
when I'm playing. I don't want to get real high.
I don't want to get over the negative. So therefore,

(34:54):
if I give myself an opportunity to kind of play
that eighty percent, God, I'm gonna hit maybe ten ten
percent really good, and I'm gonna hit ten percent really bad.
But as long as I can stay in that eighty
percent range of usable, workable, you know, acceptable shot patterns,

(35:15):
then I'm gonna be able to maintain a good even
flow from day to day and also from shot to shot.
And so if I prepare, perform, analyze, I prepare in
a routine, I get myself set up, I perform the
movement that I was trying to do and I need
to analyze, well, was that my best one, my worst one,
or is that one of those eighty percenters? And I

(35:38):
just want to stay in that eighty percent range and
be able to not get totally high or real low
from one shot to the next.

Speaker 4 (35:47):
So I think that prepare yourself.

Speaker 6 (35:49):
Perform, and be realistic and.

Speaker 4 (35:52):
Honest with yourself. Was that shot good enough for right now?

Speaker 6 (35:56):
And in generally speaking, you can look at this way,
is that if you're honest with yourself, however you hit
it was just simply the best You're gonna hit it
right at that moment. You know, maybe the pressure of
the swing was too much for you today, you know it.

Speaker 4 (36:12):
You know, don't want to call.

Speaker 6 (36:13):
It choking, but maybe we just didn't quite get our
attention level down enough to make a good swing. But
that's simply the best shot I could have hit at
that particular moment. I have to give myself the ability
to accept that and then move on to the next one.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
You know, my mind, as John speaks.

Speaker 6 (36:32):
About it, my mind can go into the past of
the future. But your brain is always in the present.
It doesn't have the ability to think behind itself or
in front of itself. But your brain is always in
the present. It's always in the moment, but your mind
and that's where we make those analysis. You know, can

(36:54):
I keep my mind in the middle of the road
or do am I gonna let it drift ahead of
me or behind me? As long as I can kind
of stay keep my mind in the middle of the
road and as close to the same level of presence
as my brain is, then I can. Then I can
manage that high and low pretty easily.

Speaker 3 (37:16):
Great points, And just to the sort of the follow
up to this is that you're alluded to it, but
maybe you could touch on a little bit more, and
that is preparing for the next shot. You know, you've
sure learned something from this particular shot. What do we
do Obviously it's going to be a new routine and
so forth, But what do we do now we're preparing
for the next shot?

Speaker 6 (37:35):
Well, I think if you look at it from a
prepared performing analysis, in that analysis of particular shot that
just happened, is I'm going to say, what did it
do different there than I did on the one of
the hit really good? You know, maybe I didn't get
my breast right, maybe I didn't take enough time to
get my.

Speaker 4 (37:54):
Body to settle there. I recognize that.

Speaker 6 (37:57):
So the next shot I'm going to hit, I'm going
to pay a little closer attention to my breathing and
what's my tension level on my hands. I recognized after
I hit it I was really tight. I got quick
and fast on that swing. So that's part of that
analysis that says, Okay, I didn't hit that my best.
So is there any little thing I noticed as far

(38:17):
as what that swing felt like that didn't match up
to the ones that I felt when I hit it
really well? So therefore on the next one, I can
give a little bit more focus to maybe making sure
my grip's not too tight, you know, once I make
that analysis, or maybe I got a little bit quick
with my area code, my rhythm was a little bit fast,

(38:39):
you know, take a deep breath, settle yourself down. Those
things come out of that analysis period. And if I
hit a really good shot I want to make I
want to maybe recognize what I felt different when I
hit it really good, because then I can try to
mimic that in the future. So post shot analysis is
where I get the those things. What do I How

(39:01):
can I make the next one a little bit better.
We don't want to jump to conclusions about why he
missed every shot, but once you reach a level of
reasonably good technique, you can feel the difference in those
swings and to particularly understand what it felt like when
he hit one good. Where as many times as possible

(39:21):
you can replicate that feeling.

Speaker 4 (39:24):
You know.

Speaker 6 (39:25):
One of the things that I tell people, if you
look at Phil Mickelson when he won the pg A kihwah,
watch what he did before he hit it.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
He stood from behind, It took.

Speaker 6 (39:34):
Deep breast until he felt his body settle. That was
his routine to get him prepared as best he could
right to make a good shot right then, because he
had recognized that that routine helped him make good swings.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
So you replicate it.

Speaker 6 (39:51):
So just as important as you pay attention to the
what your swing in the analysis was the bad swing,
I think it's even more important to pay attention and
make the analysis when you hit a good shot, what
what was that difference?

Speaker 4 (40:07):
That's what I want to know.

Speaker 6 (40:08):
Heck, anything could have happened in a bad swing, but
only certain good things happen in good swings.

Speaker 4 (40:14):
So I want to make sure I understand what that is.

Speaker 6 (40:17):
So therefore the post analysis is to me as well,
was that one of my good swings?

Speaker 4 (40:23):
You know, if it was, pay attention to it. I
want to replicate it next time.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
Yeah, excellent point. I couldn't agree more and I think
you know it again. It comes down to really the
analysis of each shot and understanding what went right and
and if if it didn't go the way you want,
then what can you learn from that that is going
to help get you better focused on the next shot
that at hand. So it was some great points, right,

(40:49):
Johnny gonna Yeah, I'm gonna come back to you on
this and we're going to talk about mastering the swing plane. Obviously,
the refers to the path that the club head, uh
excuse me travels during the swing. A lot of people
you know, have difficulty with this, do with this. They're
all over there, coming over the top, they're getting stuck
behind the body, all that kind of stuff. How do

(41:11):
we master the swing plane? What can we do and
what can you do, particularly as a coach, to really
help them get on a good swing plane. So they're
developing consistency with their ball striking and obviously their directional control.

Speaker 5 (41:24):
Ted you've heard me say this, to clients. Before that,
you probably don't practice enough to be overly concerned about
your backswing, your transition your plane. But combine that once
your fitness level, can your body actually create a better
plane or are you sitting too long behind a computer

(41:47):
and your shoulders slumping forward prevents you from doing that
that before, I, as a coach can ever appreciate whether
someone can swing on plane or not. All these things
have to be considered practice time, fitness level. The other
thing is preconceived notions about over the top. The two

(42:10):
best players in the world came over the top, Nicholas
and Woods. They hit predominant fades throughout their careers, So
what's so wrong about coming a little bit over the top?
Where most golfers' I coach has to be counseled is
the variance of their swing path, how different it can

(42:34):
be from swing to swing, and how that can differ
based on numerous factors, mainly in their setup.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
What I found over the years.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
You get set up basically the same way, your swing
plane is gonna be less variant. Instead of varying eight
to fifteen degrees, which I measured quite often on flights. Though,
can it be within a margin of error two or
three to go reason and doing that can make you
a more productive player and you're going to enjoy the

(43:05):
game more. When it comes to swing plane, whether you
break it down into the clan's various points of the swing,
you start an impact and work backwards, there's got to
be a reference point for that golfer to understand where
they believe they're playing feels like it doesn't stay where

(43:27):
they want it. And it's at that point that I
found you can get somebody to understand from a feeling
comparison standpoint of view, what they'll need to do to
get their swing on plane. One of the things that
I'll throw out at people is where you're finishing. Where

(43:47):
is that club finishing? The pain is coming from to
hit the ball. The real key here is can you
do this? And what drills can we give you that
you're capable of doing that you're willing to commit to

(44:09):
to get you on plane because it's not it's not
something that's going to come overnight. It's going to take
some time. Yeah, and that's you know, and that's something
that you know. Again, it goes back to what we
always talk about here on the coach's corner is what's
your level of commitment. You know, are you willing to

(44:31):
put in the time to see improvements? And you know,
if you're willing to do that, then there's things that
we can do as coaches that can help you improve
no matter what level of player you are. The other
component to this, John, I want you to talk about
a little bit is swing speed is a critical factor
obviously in generating distance, but it also has to be

(44:54):
balanced with control. So talk about what we can do
to improve our swing speed.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
So I live by.

Speaker 5 (45:01):
This until my clients is you're only going to swing
the club as fast as you can stay balanced, and
a lot of the loss of speed, particularly where it
counts the most, but last six inches as a club
approaches the ball is dissipated, it goes away. You're slowing
down because you're fighting to keep yourself balanced to your swing.

(45:22):
A lot of times when someone is seeking more speed,
I go immediately towards hey, where you're balancing points at
impact and have you lost your balance prior to getting
the impact. That's a real key. The second thing is
realizing that if you're wanting to create more speed, it's
a different way of training. Most of the time. I

(45:45):
think Clinton Hew will agree, we're teaching people how to
control the club face to hit it straighter. Hitting it
straighter and more on the center of the face doesn't
improve ball speed, which in turn is going to create
some distance, but actually creating more swing speed. That's almost
like going to the gym to begin with to understand

(46:07):
how to use your muscles in a more ballistic way.
How to use ground force is better, and it's a
totally different type of training. The real key here is
melding them both, because most people are going to get
more distance out of their swings if they can put
the ball in the middle of the club face and

(46:27):
there's no limit to ball speed. There's always going to
be a limit to you and how fast you can
swing the golf club. It's like going to the gym.
You're not going to put six hundred pounds on a
barbell and max out all the time. Even Brighton d.
Chambeau has to found that out. It's really about, hey,

(46:50):
what swing speeds best for me To put the ball
in the middle of the face so I can compress
it and create more ball speed. If you can increased
swing speed and still maintain and still respect the fact
that the ball's got to be met in the middle
of the face. Now, all of a sudden, the golf
world opens up a lot of avenues and opportunities for you.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
You know, it's interesting I had on Tuesdays Women of
Golf Show. I talked with a young lady that just
graduated from the EPSOM Tour. Her name's Jessica Povasnik, and
she actually finished fourth overall in the seasons under LJ. Carr.
And what was really interesting there were two stats that

(47:38):
really stood out to me. Number one, she was way
down and driving distance. She was only I think at
one hundred and four. Was her driving where she finished
in ranking. She wasn't hitting it on average two hundred
and fifty. She was a little less than two fifty,
but her accuracy was eighty plus percent. But what also
stood out was her putting. She was third overall on tour.

(48:00):
So you know, I asked her, I said, you know,
what are you going to do? And you know, she
talked about some things about, you know, more resistance training
and stuff like that, but for her it wasn't really
so much john about necessarily increasing the speed. She was
quite content with the accuracy of her shots and her game.
And obviously she recognized her short game, particularly her putting,

(48:22):
was where she was gonna, you know, win or lose strokes.
So you know, she certainly wasn't by far the longest
on the women's tour, but she had a solid game elsewhere. So,
you know, improving her swing speed to get more distance, yeah,
it's nice, but that's not really the high priority for her.
Hers is scoring and being in contention and obviously ultimately

(48:43):
winning events. So I think sometimes our amateur players are
get caught up in this thing of let's you know,
I just got to really bust out of my shoes,
and as you pointed out, they don't have the proper balance,
and a lot of times they're spinning out or they're
just not you know, really getting any since. And if
they do get distance, they're they're suffering with accuracy because

(49:03):
they're not really finding that balance point for them. So
some great points, and I just wanted to throw that
in there because it was kind of an interesting conversation
I had with her on Tuesday about that, and that's
just one of the things that we've brought up about,
is how to get some more distance and she's certainly
going to look at it, but it wasn't really as
big of a priority for her, and you know, she's
you know, battling it out with some of the best
young ladies in golf. But Flint, we're going to come

(49:26):
back to this you as we get ready to wrap
up here in just a few minutes, and I'm going
to give you this one here. Everybody wants to control
shot distance. We want to be able to when we're
going for those greens. We want to make sure they were,
you know, on the mark. What are some suggestions that
our players can do to help to control the shot distance.

Speaker 4 (49:47):
Well, yeah, that's a good question.

Speaker 6 (49:49):
I mean again we come back to how much how
much work have you put a in to have some
consistent ball contact and ball striking, because until you've done that,
it's been very difficult to quite range in your distances.

Speaker 4 (50:05):
But it also kind of comes back.

Speaker 6 (50:07):
To what you and John were just discussing about about
ball speed and club speed.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
One of the.

Speaker 6 (50:13):
Things that I do is I'll ask the question I said,
you know, if we walk over and we hold this
golf ball up at shoulder high and we drop it
on a cart path, what's the ball going to do
and the answers always it's going to bounce. And I
asked them, well, where did the bounce come from? And

(50:34):
you can't imagine the number of answers I get. Well
from the inertia the dropping it down, I said, really,
I said, I didn't do anything but just drop it, okay,
And finally I had to tell the bounce is built
into the ball. It's compressed. So what I try to
get a person to do is to slow their swings

(50:56):
down a knife that they can find that consistent balance,
as John speaks of, they can find the consistent ball
striking to see what a seven iron does if they
just make impact with it. Can I show them that
on the lesson to If I take my seven iron
and just simply make up through the space, make impact
with the ball, it's going to go about one hundred

(51:18):
and twenty five yards, That's what I've got built in.
So how much then do I have to swing for?
I want to try to hit my seven iron one
fifty that's my objective. Can I hit it one sixty?
Well every now and then, but generally speaking, I can
produce one to fifty with my seven iron on a
pretty high level of consistency. So then for to me

(51:42):
to hit it one hundred and fifty yards, how much
do I have to contribute? Well, I have to find
twenty five yards of speed, and that's where I find
that I can get a person to begin to hit
the ball a consistent distance because coming back to John's comments,
if they don't try to swing out of their shoes,

(52:03):
they stay more balanced at impact, they get a more
consistent swing, playing a more consistent ball striking, and therefore
can begin to see some consistency and repetition in distance.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
Okay, so all that.

Speaker 6 (52:17):
John's question and what you asked me very much fit
all right together. You know, he's down balance and what
club heads been can you produce on balance?

Speaker 4 (52:29):
And then how.

Speaker 6 (52:30):
Much can you add to that and maintain your balance?
To get some idea how far you hit certain clubs,
because I play with a lot of these bombers, and
you know, they hit a pitching weage one hundred and
eighty yards every now and then, but they generally hit
it maybe one fifty, but every now and then they're
standing out there trying to bomb it every time. And

(52:51):
you know they're not hit they're not players, they're hitters,
and there's a whole lot of hitters out there. But
if you watch the golf tournament this weekend, you're gonna
see a whole lot of good players. And just like
the young lady you spoke about, she knows her golf game.
She is not gonna waste her time trying to hit

(53:11):
it another five yards. She's gonna waste her time and
spend her time making sure that she maintains that good
scoring aspect of her game. Her game is not hitting
at three hundred yards off the tee. Our game is
not hitting it that far off the tee. Analyze where
your strengths are, play into them, and then your score

(53:33):
will come down. But back to the original question, I
try to get them to understand what control, speed and
balance is.

Speaker 4 (53:41):
Just like what John was talking about. You know what's your.

Speaker 6 (53:44):
Balance pointed impact. Find that balance point at as much
as you can to it as far as movement, and
then that's gonna give you your distance that you can
count on. But that takes some work. It takes a
little time to get out on that practice area and
try to find it.

Speaker 4 (54:03):
And one of the biggest.

Speaker 6 (54:05):
Problems we have is that range balls react different than
the golf balls you're playing with. So I you know,
now most golf operators are not going to like this idea,
but I want to get out on the golf course really,
either real early in the morning or late in the
evening and try to work on that move, you know,

(54:25):
out on the golf course with a golf ball or
on the practice area, you know, with my own shag bag.

Speaker 4 (54:32):
I did that today.

Speaker 6 (54:33):
I got an area that I can hit balls in
a different direction, and so I worked with my the
golf ball. I tend to play with a day working
on some new wedges. So if you have that luxury,
use it. The range balls are going to react a
little bit different, but you can you can do a
little work and figure that out too.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Yeah, well said. Unfortunately, I don't have time to do
the second part of this. We were going to talk
a little bit about Sorry, sorry, control. No that's okay, No, no,
it's not to you. Just we covered a lot of meat,
if you will in the conversation tonight, and I've got
to obviously get ready to have the guests on. But
no great answers, guys, and I think you hit all

(55:14):
of the points that I really wanted to to cover
tonight and I think you did it as always did
a great job. And I like to give you guys
a moment to let the folks know if they want
to reach out, the best way that they can go
and do that. So we'll go on order of call
and that is John and then Clint. So John, how
can we how can the listeners if they want to

(55:34):
get in touch with you? And if there's any special
that you want to promote by all means, go ahead.

Speaker 5 (55:39):
Sure, thanks again for the opportunity. And Flint, I said,
I always learned something with you, and we need to
get together soon and and just let the spaghetti hit
the floor or the wall or whatever you can for
people can reach me John Hughes Golf when you put

(56:02):
in dot com at the end of it and Hamper
sign in front of it, that's the easiest way to
find me. I'm finishing up my first season at Maclamore Resort.
It's spilled great summer. I hope people will come back
next year and visit me here. But I've got openings
in Orlando starting in November at Oley Champions Gate, which

(56:24):
has become my new home there. I'm looking forward to
getting back and getting into a full schedule with my
clientele there, so you can certainly contact me through my
website or the four h seven number listed on my website.
And as always, Ted, thanks for the opportunity.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
Always a pleasure. Glad you had a successful summer up
in at Maclamore, and I know that the folks in
Orlando will be glad to have you back and helping
some of them. And I'm sure you'd be glad to
be home as well. Clint, Sorry, go.

Speaker 6 (56:57):
Ahead, no, no worry, kid Again, it's been a pleasure
being on the show with I think we've probably been
on together more than that many have, and it's it's
it's nice nice to get involved there, but people get
in touch with me the Clinton Guy zero zero one
at yahoo dot com. But just so to break away
from that, as most of y'all know, I live here

(57:19):
in South Carolina and not too far from western North Carolina,
So keep those folks in your thoughts. I mean, we
took a pretty big hit here with the hurricane it
came through. Generally the population is beginning to get back
to some bit gol courses begin to reopen, but it
was quite an ordeal for about two weeks, so keep

(57:40):
those your thoughts and not too long come up and
support the folks in western North Carolina. They'd be more
happy to see you here in a little bit. So
it has been a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
Thanks body, all right, Always a pleasure, and yeah, I agree,
do what you can. There's a lot of great charities
out there. Samurdan Purse, I know it has been a
big leader and helping the folks up in the Northern
Carolina area, northwest particularly, so definitely can get it on
their website and I'll give you the information a little
bit later on the show as well. But guys, as always,

(58:08):
thank you. Always bring your best. I appreciate it and
keep helping those guys and gals out there become better players.
But have a great weekend, guys, and I'll see you
next time on Coaches Corner.

Speaker 4 (58:21):
Good thank you.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
All right. That was John Hughes and Clint Wright joining
me on the Coach's Corner panel. We're going to take
a quick break and then I'm going to come back
and I'm going to introduce tonight's special guests. We'll be
right back.

Speaker 7 (58:35):
When it comes to golf, there are two topics that
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Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
All right, welcome back to Golf Talk Live. I'm your host,
Teddo Durrico, and we had a very great guest joining
me tonight. I'm very excited to have her back. She's
been on the show before. And let me just give
you just a little introduction and I'll bring her on.
Her name is Tava Dale, and she is the author
of a new book called and I'm hoping I pronounced
this right. It's a terre wa of Golf, a golf

(01:00:38):
book for wine lovers. And she is also the owner
of Tava, Inc. And her journey in golf with no
prior exposure led her to discover a profound connection with
nature on the course, igniting her passion for the game.
Her transformation transition from writing short stories to publishing book
showcases for dedication to sharing her love for golf. And

(01:01:01):
she's the first woman that was board a member of
the Golf Heritage Society. We're going to talk about that
tonight as well. And Tava's contributions have not only been
published in the Golf Journal, but have also connected her
with fellow golf enthusiasts, fostering a shared passion for the sport.
So please welcome my very special guest, Tavia Dale Tava,

(01:01:22):
Welcome back to Golf Talk Live.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Ted.

Speaker 8 (01:01:26):
Thank you so much for having me. Do you know
I have been looking forward to this day since February
when you invited me. You said, you know what, I
only have October twenty fourth, do you want to be on?
And I'm like, yes, yes, that was back in Sebruary.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
I know. It's you know, it's funny every year, you know,
this is my twelve season. I'm going into season thirteen
next next season, and I've got just a few more shows,
well another month and a half and then we'll be
closing off for the season for the second half of December,
and then the month of January. I was take off
because I go to the PGA show at the end

(01:02:05):
of January and that's when I do a lot of
my rebookings in that and each year, you know, I
get so many people, some wanting to come back like
yourselves and new guests of course, but I've now probably
got four or five agencies that do a lot of
my bookings just because I've been doing it so long
and they just hey, you know, they call me up.
So when I got down to the PGA Show last year,

(01:02:26):
more so than even the previous season, I literally by
the time I left that show, I had pretty much
everything up, including most of the fall, booked before I
left the PGA Show at the end of January. So
that's why you didn't get on before October twenty four,
that was pretty much booked.

Speaker 8 (01:02:45):
To tell you, I'm sitting on my desk my my
PGA show credentials from last year. Because I get I
get to have media credentials. So maybe this coming January
we'll get to me up and have a coffee or
a glass of wine somewhere in in in Orlando.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
I would love that, And I definitely have already got
my credentials as well. So I'm looking forward to it.
And you know what, it's going to come up faster
than what we realize. Uh, time just seems to be
zipping by. Let me ask you We're going to get
into talk about the golf Partige Society, because I know
that's something that you wanted to. You just actually had
the They just had the regional the National Convention Center.

(01:03:28):
Yeah yeah, sorry, the National Cement. But I have to
ask you, because I've been I've been sweating over this
all day long. Did I pronounce the title of the
book correct?

Speaker 4 (01:03:39):
Is it?

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
Is it? Pair walk?

Speaker 8 (01:03:41):
Did? I could take lessons from you?

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
So it must be the French Canadian. It must be
the friend I know that's I had to go there
and I practiced it all day long, and I said, okay,
I can't. I can't mess this up. And so I
study a little French Canadian.

Speaker 8 (01:03:58):
Well, I'm obviously not a native French speaker, and if
I was, it would probably sounds a little different. But
in the book, in the Tear Off Golf Book, I
put a page on pronunciation and what is terrawah? A
little you know, explanation about it being the ground and

(01:04:19):
the earth, the soil, the complete climate, but the pronunciation.
Because one time I had a guy just you know,
pointing at the book title and he said, how do
you say that? I thought I got to make it
easy for people. So as soon as you open the cover,

(01:04:39):
you get to that page. Just a few pages, just
a few pages into the book.

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
Yeah, and I'm glad you put it in there because
it helped me quite a bit. We're going to talk
about the book a little bit, but I want to
let's start off with the Golf Parish Society. As I
mentioned in the opening remarks, in addition being a business owner,
you're also a board member for the Golf Parriage Society.
So they had their convention at Pinehurst. A lot of

(01:05:06):
exciting things are going to get you to talk about
some of them. And obviously Pinehurst recently opened up. They
had the new home of the USGA, and I know
that played a role as well. We can talk about
a little bit about that as well. But give us
an idea because that this took place October sixteenth, nineteenth,
so it's past it's past ten, but it's recently. Tell

(01:05:27):
us about because you hadn't been there, I think for
you said you hadn't been back to Pinehurst for many years,
but you were certainly excited about going. Tell us a
little bit about ten years.

Speaker 8 (01:05:37):
I was just I was so excited when Golf Heritage
Society announced we're going to be at Pinehurst, and I
have to remember this in the beginning because we get
to the end and I forget anybody who wants to
know more about the Golf Heritage Society. The website is
Golf Heritage dot org.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Got it in there, We'll get it in many times,
I promise, go.

Speaker 8 (01:06:05):
Ahead, Well, we follow all of us at Golf Heritage
Society followed what the USGA was doing because they were
coming to our national conventions for the last few years
and they were showing us slides renderings of the buildings

(01:06:27):
and what they were envisioning, what they were imagining. Because
also the World Golf Hall of Fame, which was originally
established in Pinehurst in nineteen seventy four, then it relocated
to Florida, Saint Augustine, Florida. Now it's back, and so
the USGA. It's all under one roof, so it's it's magnificent.

(01:06:50):
There's a museum on the ground floor, and then upstairs
are the are the lockers, and they are fascinating their windows,
windows into every inductee, and it's amazing some of the
things that they put into their lockers, really really fascinating.

Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
You know what's interesting is just sort of a side note.
I was at Pinehurst probably I want to say, three
seasons ago, maybe four, and of course where the USJA
has put its roots. I believe there was and I'm

(01:07:33):
trying to remember some tennis courts, if I'm not mistaken,
was in that area. They had not started construction yet,
and somebody in the pro shop said, oh, hey, I
don't know if you heard, but the USGA is moving
to Pinehurst. So they had not actually broken ground yet,
and they told me essentially where it was going to be.
And I was sitting there thinking, okay, I can see

(01:07:54):
that happening. And of course, now fast forward a few
years and here it is. So I'm excited to get
back because I have not been into the new facility yet,
but I hear it's pretty spectacular. And you obviously had
a great relationship with the Golf Hariage Society and that
sort of partnership there. So tell us a little bit
about the event the convention, How did that go, What

(01:08:16):
were some of the events that took place, and maybe
just give us sort of an overview.

Speaker 8 (01:08:22):
Well, it started out with the Golf Heritage Society having
a VIP tour and reception, and it was upstairs, so
we're surrounded by the lockers and they created a wonderful
meeting space in the middle. Of course, during our VIP

(01:08:43):
tour and reception, we had tables, we had high tops,
we had wine, beer, drinks, food, and we were so
warmly welcomed by Hillary Kronheim and her colleagues who are
pretty much running the show there. And you know, Hillary
is going back and commuting to Far Hills, New Jersey.

(01:09:07):
That is still their headquarters. It's not like they're moving,
you know, lock Stock and Barrel, but they've created this
wonderful satellite facility. The one building has administrative offices and
testing facilities, which is interesting. And then there's the building
that we were in over the course of several days.

(01:09:29):
And in between it's this beautiful pollinator garden. And so
you know, this this time of year, there's there's not
that much in bloom, but it's just it's just lovely
the way they've created such a beautiful environment. So and
and and then and they themselves are so welcoming. So

(01:09:50):
we started out being sort of wined and dined upstairs
in the World Golf Hall of Fame, which all of
that only just opened barely months before the US Open
was held in Pinehurst in June. So it's amazing what
they accomplished.

Speaker 3 (01:10:09):
And you know, it's just a fun fact for the
listeners out there and that may not know this. The
brand new facility courses you mentioned houses the World Golf
Hall of Fame, which was first established in Pinehurst in
nineteen seventy four. They then moved it some years later
to Saint Augustine, Florida, and now it's come full circle

(01:10:30):
and been relocated back to Pinehurst, which obviously is an
idea of play. So it's kind of interesting. A little
bit of the history of that is that they know
it sort of began and was established at Pinehurst in
the seventies and then you know, went to Florida for
a little while, and then now it's come full circle
back to Pinehurst in this new facility. So, as you mentioned,

(01:10:50):
there's actually two buildings a six acre campus, which one
is the USGA Administration and Test Center and then the other,
of course is the museum and Hall of Fame. Tell
us a little bit about more so you had the
VIP tour and reception, right, yeah, exactly, And as as
you should as you should Tava, So tell us a

(01:11:11):
little bit a bit more about that. And and then
you mentioned about the lockers upstairs, and you said there
was some interesting things, and we're talking about some of
the old players, old Tom Morris and and uh, and
that tell us some of the interesting things that was off.

Speaker 8 (01:11:25):
I was actually astonished to see Old Tom Morris and
Young Tom, Tom Morris Junior, and Alan Robertson, who of
course belonged there. If you have Young Tom and old
Town Tom, you should have Allan. But I had no
idea that you know that they were, that they were
inducted into the Hall of Fame as they should be.

(01:11:49):
And so in the lockers, you know, in Old Tom's locker,
I was fascinated to see a little feathery ball stamped
T Morris, and I thought, I wonder, could that be real?
And I grabbed a friend of mine who's a very

(01:12:10):
knowledgeable collector, Wayne Aaron, and I dragged him over there
and I said, Wayne, is that ball authentic? And he
took one look at it and he said, yep, that's real.
So you know what you see in these lockers when
you know so you would see hickory clubs, you would
see all kinds of things that belonged to, you know,

(01:12:36):
the people who are represented in Hall of Fame. So
you know, you're you're just a quarter of an inch away,
you know, on the other side of the glass from
you know, touching this history. And actually when we came
in the next day and the next day for our
educational sessions, Hillary was there, you know, with her glove,

(01:13:00):
and she was putting things in the lockers and taking
things out of the lockers, rearranging the lockers. So, I
mean it's really only newly opened, so they're still putting
things in and she said that they will rotate. They
have a lot more in storage than they can put
into the lockers.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
And I understand too from some of the notes here
that they have in between the two buildings called the glade,
and that's a garden of some sort. Tell us a
little bit about that's kind of interesting.

Speaker 8 (01:13:31):
Well, it was really lovely and it included the pollinator garden.
And another surprise, as you walk along the pathways, there
was a monumental sculpture of old tom a bronze and
you know, they just unveiled a tom or sculpture in St.

(01:13:54):
Andrew's October third, during the Dunhill and that was one
hundred and ten percent scale. And I am so thrilled that,
you know, people who were there, some other historians are
sending me photographs, are sending me, you know, clips from
the Golf Channel, all the all the people who covered

(01:14:19):
it on television. So I got to feel like I
was there. But I also got to meet the artist
David Anand who created that sculpture in Saint Andrew's Chick Harper,
my book designer of Karwaf Golf, took me to his
studio and I got to see the sculpture before it
was cast in bronze. And you know, I just I'm

(01:14:43):
I'm a golf nut, I'm a nerd, I'm a geek.
I just and you know, and I'm also an art
dealer and an art collector, so, you know, getting to
meet the artist and going to the studio and seeing
it before it was cast and all that kind of thing.
But I don't I don't really know who created the
Old Tom statue that's that's in that garden in the glade.

(01:15:07):
I need to do some research.

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
Yeah, I wonder if it's the same person that did
there's a bronze, you know, statue out on the other
side of where the clubhouse is out I'm trying to
think of. It's over near a number two Brin Stewart. Yeah, sure, so,
and then there's, uh, there's another one. My memory is
getting bad, but there was several statues out in that area.

(01:15:32):
In fact, I've got pictures of them on my phone.
When I was there, I had to snap a few.
But so there was that. So I'm just wonder if
it's the same individual that that created those, maybe had
something to do, or maybe the same group or whatnot.
But yeah, it'd be interesting to find that out. So
obviously there was other a new inductee, Padrick Padrick Harrington
excuse me, he was also and he included Ladybug and

(01:15:56):
Lady Bird head cover and some other me right right,
ryder cup replicas that he included. So yeah, I mean,
it's just, you know, you have such a diversity of
the game, and as you said, you know, I think
one of the interesting things about golf is you've got

(01:16:16):
something sort of i won't say two extremes, but you're
going from you know, old and young Tom Morris and
then now you're coming into some of the more recent
legends of the game and that that are now you know,
as their time is coming, they're getting inducted into the
Hall of Fame. And it's just the difference and diversity
of what you have. And so obviously there was some
other players, but you obviously got a good a good

(01:16:40):
sense of Padragh and what he included in his his locker.

Speaker 8 (01:16:45):
Well, you know, and I've also got to gotten to
see him play in Ireland, and I I also was
really taken with Tom Wise coofs. He's a new inductee,
but you know he's passed away, so he put in
his Ryder Cup seventy three golf bag. Well when I

(01:17:09):
say he put in, he was just he's a new inductee,
but his Open Championship replica of the Claire jug famous
hat that he wore, so it you know, I think
that the lockers are they're very lovingly composed to give

(01:17:34):
us a sense of who they were, what they accomplished,
and a little bit of personality too, you know, like
I just really am tickled by Padrig's lady bug. Ladybird.
We call him a ladybug. Now I don't know why,
but in Ireland they call it a lady bird, right,

(01:17:57):
but it's his head cover for his driver. Anytime you
see him on TV, you're going to see that lady
bug or hair cover.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
Well. And and again it's a sort of a testament
to the different in the diversity of players.

Speaker 4 (01:18:12):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:18:13):
Uh, some are a little bit more you know, I'm
just going to put the you know, the ball here,
and I'm going to do this and do that, and
then some like to really you know, show their personalities
and and do something like that. And and you know,
it's very refreshing to see somebody do something like that
and just put and then you you, as you said,
you've got somebody like you know, Tom Wisecough, who I

(01:18:37):
really really thought was a phenomenal player. I used to
watch a lot of videos that he did on the
on the Golf Channel, a lot of the segment, and
he was just a very I mean loved, love, love
Jack Nicholas. I mean almost every video I ever watched
him and he always reference to Jack Nicholas. So he
had a great deal of respect of him. So I'm
glad to see that. Uh it's sad that he he

(01:18:58):
obviously passed away, but I'm glad that he was subducted
into the Hall of Fame. He deserved that. He was
a great player and just a real gentleman of the game.
So in addition to getting the VIP treatment, there was
some educational aspects of your visit. Tell us a little
bit about that. Give us a sort of the rundown
of that. What were some of the things that you

(01:19:21):
guys got to partake in there.

Speaker 8 (01:19:23):
So the Golf Heritage Society, it's all about fellowship and camaraderie.
But I would say every single member, hundreds of us,
we really respect the history of the game and the
tradition of the game, and that's what we love learning about.
So our first educational session was on October seventeen, and

(01:19:52):
a long Pinehurst resident and historian Jen Ludwig, who's also
a member of the Donald Ross's talked about the Tin
Whistles Society, which is apparently the oldest men's golf society.
And then we had on Friday, we had a whole

(01:20:17):
we had three different sessions, so after our general membership meeting,
which is always fascinating, but that in itself, and we
had our vice president, George Petro, show us what the
new Golf Heritage Society website is going to look like
Golf Heritage dot org.

Speaker 6 (01:20:37):
I got it in there twice.

Speaker 8 (01:20:39):
It is so spectacular. This man has been spending months
and months and months working on this, overseeing the people
who were building it, and it's going to be so
beautiful and so robust. I mean, I really can't wait
for it to be live. But then we had Jerry Austry,

(01:21:02):
who was the past president of the Ben Hogan Company,
and he's written a book called My Time with Mister Hogan,
and oh my goodness, it's amazing, you know, to listen
to somebody who spent so much time with mister Hogan,
and it's his book is fantastic too. There's so much

(01:21:27):
detail so my Time with mister Hogan, and as I know,
it is not easy to write a book, so I'm
really my hat is off to him for getting it done.
Then we had Richard Mandel, who's a golf architect. He's
a Pinehurst resident, and he is really an authority on

(01:21:48):
Donald Ross and Donald Ross courses and he's got a
book called Life and Times of Donald Ross and he
gave a great presentation and he could he is he's
the one who gets called in to do a lot
of restoration of Donald Ross courses. And there's some people

(01:22:09):
who are like, well, we think we have a Donald
Ross course, is it? And Richard Mandel is the guy
who's going to tell you if it is or it isn't.

Speaker 4 (01:22:19):
Right.

Speaker 8 (01:22:19):
I mean, in his lifetime, Donald Ross designed over four
hundred courses, but he only traveled to about one hundred
of them, because you know, in those days, you know,
if you didn't have a car, if you're going by train,
if you didn't have a train, you didn't have a
way to get around the country the way we do now,

(01:22:43):
right to just pick up and go. Most of us
get on.

Speaker 3 (01:22:45):
An airplane, right right exactly. And yeah, it's interesting, you know.
You know, the Golf Hair Society has a lot of
different interesting components to it. You had another speaker, Bob Hanson,
who is also a longtime member of the Golf Hair
Society and is the owner of a shop I think

(01:23:06):
in the village. What were some of the things that
he shared in his time.

Speaker 8 (01:23:12):
Well, I'm lucky that I had a little extra time
to go into his shop in the village before he
gave his presentation. And it is a museum in itself,
and he really only collects the best of the best
and sells I should say collects and sells. But his knowledge,

(01:23:33):
I mean he started he told us he started collecting.
He started going over to Scotland decades ago and collecting,
like in the nineteen sixties. So you know, for instance,
he showed us a reproduction of the very very famous
Charles Lee's painting. The original is now in a museum

(01:23:56):
in Scotland, but he was granted the permission to make
a few replicas. Now these are the reproductions, but even
the reproductions are very very valuable. And you know, he
talks about how each and every person inside that Charles

(01:24:17):
Lee's painting there, they're little portraits, they're real people. They
and they had to be sketched in advance and then
put into the painting, so that painstakingly, and it's just

(01:24:38):
it's just amazing. I want to look something up here,
Charles Lee's what did it? What did the original self for?
Oh it didn't, it's in the museum. But anyway, so
he had other works, different mediums and walk color drawings,

(01:25:02):
and so he was able to talk and in great
detail about each medium and who the artist was and
he's just he's walking encyclopedia, not just on painting, not
just on two dimensional. I mean in his shop he

(01:25:26):
had a letter signed by Old Tom Morris and a
very clear signature, and part of the paper was torn,
was torn or cut out? There was it was cut out.
And as now this wasn't in in the session in

(01:25:50):
the us GA, but when when a few of us
were in his shop, he said, you know, Old Tom
was very very frugal, and if there was any piece
of paper that he could use right on, he could
he just cut He cut his own letter so he
could get that square piece of paper so that he

(01:26:12):
could use it to write on it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:17):
Oh.

Speaker 8 (01:26:18):
Just you know, you look at that and you go, oh,
does that devalue this? No, opposite, That's the thing, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:26:29):
And there's kills right, and just a few other points
I want to bring up, and then I want to
move on to talk about your book. Just one of
the other things they had was you had your annual
banquet was held at the Country Club of North Carolina,
and as you put the food was outstanding. The keynote
speaker was Mike Hicks, who was Payne Stuart's caddy and

(01:26:51):
friend Tell us little, but I'm sure he shared some
really good stories.

Speaker 8 (01:26:56):
I just have goosebumps when you mentioned his name, and
I think he said he was he was with Pain
for twelve years, and yeah, people asked him all kinds
of questions, including oh, what it was like when Paine's

(01:27:19):
plane went down, and just it just you know, yeah,
the tough questions any and he handled them with such grace,
and he he was you know, people asked him what
was he like? He said, you know, they really got

(01:27:39):
to be very good friends over the years. Families spent
time together, and it was just it was a real
treat to be to be in the room with him.
You could almost feel like you were in the room.

Speaker 3 (01:27:54):
With pain, you know, pain Pain Stewart was I remember,
in fact, I think it was a Pinehurst and he
in fact, I'm almost one hundred percent sure was that Pinehurst.
I mean, I said, my memories get a little foggy.
But when Phil Nicholson was in contention for the US

(01:28:16):
Open and Paint Swart famously grabbed him, you know, on
both cheeks. And this was when Phil Nicholson was about
to his wife, not him, but his wife was uh
and he were expecting their first child, and he said
to him, and I'm just paraphrasing, was that the most

(01:28:37):
exciting thing today is not going to be whether you
win or or you know, lose the golf tournament, but
the the you know, delivery of your your first child.
He said that, you know you're going to become a
father or fact that we think it was going to
be that day. So you know, he he he just
he knew. Pain Stewart just had an ability to just

(01:29:01):
on such a human level. I mean, he was a jokester.
I've heard rumors. I'm sure Mike could probably attest to
this that you know, he loved to you know, he
had certain fellow players on tour and that that he
would joke around with and kiddots with. But he was
just anybody you talk to, they've all said the same thing.
He was just a wonderful husband, a wonderful father, and

(01:29:21):
just a really a beacon of light. And I think
that's one of one of the reasons I'm sure that
he was honored at Pinehurst with the statue that I
mentioned earlier, is that he just was such a real gentleman.
And of course it has that famous pose where he's
you know, after he sunk the putt and he's got

(01:29:42):
his you know, leg kicked out the back and his
fist pumping out the front, and you know how he
balanced himself, I'll never know, but he you know, he
was just a great individual. So I'm sure Mike had
a lot of stories that were great to share.

Speaker 8 (01:29:53):
Sorry, well, you know, it's interesting. Somebody asked him about
when Payne cut off the sleeps to his rain jacket,
and first he said, well, he cut him off like
just above the elbow, and then you know, then he
cut them more and I think the sleeves maybe those

(01:30:14):
pieces of the sleeves that he cut off, I think they're.

Speaker 2 (01:30:16):
In the museum.

Speaker 6 (01:30:18):
But you know, when he was asked.

Speaker 8 (01:30:19):
About the put you know, because he only beat Nicholson
by one stroke, right, he was asked about that, and
you know, did you think he was going to make it?
And Mike said, no way, he never thought he's going
to make that fifteenth footer and it was uphill and

(01:30:40):
when he did, I mean just everybody went crazy, but
he himself didn't think he was going to make it. So,
oh my gosh. Yeah, he has great stories.

Speaker 3 (01:30:51):
It's just amazing. So we're gonna talk about your book,
but I want to point out something first just before
we get into, you know, some of the specifics that
one of the things, I mean, you had obviously a
great time at the Golf Parage Society, and uh, it's
the website again is golf Heritage dot org. I'm gonna
split it in there again. What I found, Yeah, what

(01:31:13):
I found right, well, we'll do it again before we found.

Speaker 8 (01:31:17):
I love.

Speaker 3 (01:31:20):
Golf Heritage dot org. Don't forget that is what I
found really interesting in And as I said to you recently,
you know, I'm still going through there's so many things
that such beautiful pictures and that in your book. But
what I found really interesting because I had her as
a guest, is Jen bel Jan, who of course is
a great arch architect and golf course designer herself, and

(01:31:44):
she was a guest many years ago on the Women
of Golf show that I do on Tuesdays, and you
obviously expressed that you were very excited as well as
her as seeing her original drawing of the Juger Island
Golf Club, which is featured uh in this in this book.
At the at the USGA Veum of Science and Golf

(01:32:05):
Exhibit so tell us about the relationship, because she's actually
in on page one, there's a little bit about her.
So she's actually in the book. Tell us a little bit.

Speaker 8 (01:32:16):
Absolutely. Well, you know, I interviewed Bill corr years ago
literally at my kitchen table in Scottsdale, Tom Doak, David Kidd,
Jason Straka, these are guys that I know, Pat Ruddy
who wrote the foreword, and I got to do my

(01:32:38):
interview with Pat in his magnificent library at the European Club.
Jan I felt like, well, I have to have a woman.
I have to have a woman architect, and who else
are you going to have but Jan bel Jan, And
you know, you know, she was the president of the

(01:33:00):
American Society of Golf Course Architects. She's only the second
woman president. Alice Dye was the first, and the American
Society of Golf Course Architects was you know, Donald Ross
was one of the founders. And that's why the members
where the Donald Ross read plaid. The members get to

(01:33:23):
wear that, get to wear that plaid, get to wear
that tartan. So but what's really fun is I got
to spend a lot more time with Jan this time
than ever before, and she's so much fun to be around,
and she's so smart, and she's so practical, and she's
so interesting. Every time I'm with her, I learned something

(01:33:47):
new about her. I could talk about her for the
rest of the show. I probably shouldn't, but yeah, great honored,
great privilege to be able to do my interview with
her and have her in the book. And and those
photographs of JUPII on club, she took all those photographs.

(01:34:08):
She hauls around a great, big Nikon camera. She had
it with her last week in Pine her so she
takes photographs there, high resolution. They're every bit as beautiful
as some of the you know, forty meg photographs that
we got in for the book from from Castigleondol, Bosco

(01:34:30):
and a whole bunch of other people.

Speaker 3 (01:34:34):
So tell us about give us just sort of a
general overview, and then we can obviously talk about some
specific things. So what was the thought process behind doing
this book Their Walk of Golf? Why did you want
to do this book? And just let me just tell
a couple of quick things. First, this is obviously the
first edition, first US edition, uh, And obviously UH, it's

(01:34:57):
a it's a collector's for those that want to collect.
This is definitely you call it a coffee table book,
walping three hundred and fifty two pages, very high resolution photography,
as you point out, and actually you indicated it. One
of the reviewers of the book actually said it's national
geographic quality, which is a very honored thing to say.

(01:35:21):
And obviously you've had a lot of other great comments
as well. But why did you want to do this book?
Why was this particular book important to you?

Speaker 8 (01:35:30):
Do you know what's interesting? I the title came from
Kevin and I. Kevin's my partner, Kevin McGrath. We were
playing golf on at the Macri, which is a links
course on the Isle of Isla, and Isla is much

(01:35:51):
better known for whiskey, and it was right before they
were getting ready to do the remodel and we're out
there all by ourselves. We didn't even have a scorecard.
They handed us a sheet of paper and it said,
you know, whole number one, four hundred yards and we're like,
where's the first tea? We didn't even couldn't even we

(01:36:12):
didn't know where we were going. So we were like
adventurers finding our way around the course. And I think
it's by the time we got to the ninth hole,
which is par three, it was just an aha moment.
Trewoff golf, tar wove golf, tarwaf golf. It just came

(01:36:32):
into my head. You know, Herbert Warrenwynd coined Amen corner,
Jim Murray coined Hogan, Sally tayba Dale coined in tarowov golf.
It's just a one phrase that came to me and
so I so I had to own it. And I

(01:36:53):
really didn't know that I was writing a book, but
at that moment, I think I realized I have to.
I had to write about my experience playing the Mockery.
And then one thing led to another, to another, to
another to another, and it became a travelogue of playing

(01:37:14):
golf in Scotland and staying at some places that we
really love, like the Markliff near Aberdeen, and you know,
so there were you know, I was, I was writing
about my own experiences. But after I had written ten
stories like that, I realized, wait a minute, that can't
that's not a book. I've already done that. Golfer Scotland's calling,

(01:37:38):
I've already done that, written about playing golf in Scotland.
There has to be something else, and the something else
became the Cleric Jug story. But it's the definitive story
of the Cleric Jug. And I've written about the Jug before,
and I've written about the challenge about that young Tom
one three years in a row and he got to

(01:37:59):
keep it in to perpetuity. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
of journalists and historians have written all that stuff. But
my story is really really different because it goes deeply
into why a jug and what is claret? And this
was this was writing that story and that that The

(01:38:22):
research and writing that that alone took two and a
half years, because you know, I wanted to know every
detail about about the Cleric Jug, you know, the it's
and and the whole history of claret, which really kind

(01:38:42):
of means red wine. But when when the when the
the British became very enamored of wine in particular that
came from Bordeaux, they couldn't pronounce it right, and I'm
not going to either. It's it's really claire. You have
to be friends to say that word right, right, which
is how it got to be clear. But in my story,

(01:39:06):
I go all the way back to the Romans in
their empire, building days when their soldiers were on their
campaigns to the north, they planted the vines in Bordeax.
So I don't think you're going to get that story
anywhere else, but in my book, Kara Wafcoff.

Speaker 3 (01:39:27):
You know what's really interesting. I mean there's a lot.
I mean, people don't realize what's in this book. And
we're going to tell people, obviously in a few moments
how they can get their hottle hands on a copy.
You actually had a book signing that I know you're
going to talk about as well, But I just found
I mean, there's just so many great courses, and there's

(01:39:48):
a story behind each one. We give a lot of
you know, detail about different things their history and above
and beyond. And what I was going to ask you though,
and then I want she to talk about the book
signing and so forth, is was there a particular or
I mean, like I said, there's I mean, there's three
hundred and two pages. Obviously it's not all the stories

(01:40:11):
and addors, you know, the author's page and so forth.
But was there when you were putting this together, like
for instance, we start off with Turnberry, was there a
reason did you, like, was there any course was going
to start? Or was there a method to your madness?
In other words, as it flows through the book, was

(01:40:32):
there was there you know? Did you sort of added
the courses together and just okay, we're gonna put this
one first, or was there a method to it? Like
did you do it based on the travel? How did
you put this together.

Speaker 8 (01:40:45):
With there was a method. When Kevin and I come
over from Ireland. We live in Ireland this summer. What
Kevin said, Irish citizen born in Dublin, and when we
go to Scotland we usually take our car and we
go on the ferry. And so if we're coming out
of Dublin or Belfast or larn we would usually take

(01:41:09):
the ferry to Karen Ryan. When you get off the
ferry at Karen Ryan and you start traveling up the coast,
boom you hit Turnberry. That's how Turnberry got to be
the first one, because you're going along and you see

(01:41:30):
the ailsa Craig, which is magnificent. It's an island in
between Scotland and Ireland, and it's famous for one thing
only it's where and I don't know if they can

(01:41:50):
even do it anymore. They really regulate it that's where
they harvest the granite that makes curling stones there, and
it's it's just really beautiful. It's just really magical. And
a Scottish friend of mine said to me, you know,
like twenty years ago, in his very Scottish accent. He said,

(01:42:16):
I can't do it in a Scottish accent, but if
you can see the Alsa Craig, it's gone to rain.
If you cannot see the Ilsa Crag, it's raining. It
does literally disappear when it's raining. But then you know,
we went straight over to another favorite place of ours,

(01:42:38):
which is the Marcliff, as I mentioned, and I wrote
about it in the book. But I also realized, you know,
all the times I've gone to Kings Barns, which I love,
I have never written about it. I have got to
write about it. So but from from that, you know,
from the east coast of Scotland, and we went up

(01:43:01):
to the Highlands and when we were at Nairn, we
were meant to play it right after they held the
Scottish Open there, I think, but it was the weather
was miserable, so we thought, well, we have an extra day,
we could play it tomorrow. Let's hang out at Nairn
and it happened to be when they were playing Wimbledon,

(01:43:24):
and then Andy Murray won and we were all obsessed
with watching Wimbledon. So that because so that story became
part one and part two. There was what happened in
the clubhouse when we were all watching Wimbledon, and then
there was the course and going out on the course
and playing the course, and so I don't know, you

(01:43:44):
know it, they all the pieces kind of fit together neatly,
like a like a jigsaw puzzle. And I wrote again
about Macarhonish where I've been a member. It's now twenty
twenty four. I have a member for twenty years. So
I've written about Macrahonish before several times, but never never,

(01:44:08):
never like this time. This story. The title is Mull
of Royalty and so Macrahonish is down at the bottom
of the Mull of Kintyre. But below Macarhonish is the
course called Donoverty down in South End, where Belle Robertson

(01:44:34):
learned to play her golf. And in my book, and
it is my book, but you know, in my philosophical book,
Belle Robertson is Golf Royalty, and she's actually one of
the first women who along with Renee Powell and Dame
Laura Davies and Anika it was one of the first

(01:44:57):
women who became members of the art. But I wanted
to write about Bell. That's how my my Macrohonish story
is is really really different than any other story that
I've written.

Speaker 3 (01:45:15):
Right, And there's a lot of great components to the book,
and I want to touch on a few, just you know,
for time. But you you've got a whole group of
wine makers that you talk about in the book. Then
of course, as I mentioned Jen bel Jen and others
that were designers that talked her, and then you also

(01:45:38):
got a lot of professional golfers from Luke Donald, Ernie
l David Frost, many others, even Honor Palmer, Gary Player
and Jan Stevenson, and there's many others in there that
have their own wine labels. And then you sort of
think you finish it off with golf clubs and resorts
with a strong wine culture. So there's there's obviously an

(01:46:00):
underlying theme in this book is some great golf and
some fantastic wine and some of the great experiences obviously
that you guys, you and Kevin had while you're in
in the area and preparing for this book. So I
can see why it would take two years of research
to get all of this information together. But just touch

(01:46:21):
on a little bit from each that was only.

Speaker 8 (01:46:23):
For the one story the clear Chech Street years eighth.

Speaker 3 (01:46:28):
Okay, well there you go.

Speaker 4 (01:46:30):
Well that makes.

Speaker 3 (01:46:32):
I was going to say, that makes much more sense
than so, so just touch on a little bit of
each again. Maybe you know, again you you maybe if
you want to feature one of the wine makers that
you spoke to, and and and and just touch on
it was one specific that really stood out.

Speaker 8 (01:46:51):
Well, actually, yes, all of them. But I would love
to jump john on how much time we have. I'd
love to jump to the last after golf clubs and
resorts with a strong wine culture, and it starts at NAPA.
And when I learned about Maya Comma having more wine

(01:47:11):
lockers than they had golf lockers, I thought, oh, my gosh,
this needs to be in my book. And then you know,
I went literally around the world. And I do think
that people who buy this book, if I don't give
away all the all the secrets, there's gonna be some

(01:47:35):
really surprising discoveries and and and then I mean it's
it's a visual feast of contemporary color photography. There's also
a lot of fascinating historical images. But I think it's
really a treasure trove of entertaining stories. And so why
each of those clubs or resorts is in the book,

(01:47:58):
you know one surprises are manor why you kind of
got to read the book, But it goes all the
way around the world to South Korea, Whistling Rock, one
hundred and sixty seven thousand square foot clubhouse, thirty thousand
bottle wine cellar, ten thousand bottle tasting room, and a

(01:48:22):
wine Somalia, a chief Somalia, and a water Somalia.

Speaker 3 (01:48:28):
Wow.

Speaker 8 (01:48:29):
Whoa wow, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:48:31):
Yeah, that's a yeah. That would take that would I
could that would take the eight years is to get
through a part of that. You know, well, I guess
what's really interesting and I want to get And again
I called this because we've we've got you know, limited
time unfortunately, but I want to make sure that we
get this information. So currently, right now the book is

(01:48:52):
available through the website Clearehouse Publishing and it's a Clearehouse
Publishing dot common at c L A R. E. House
Publishing dot com. And it's very easy to order online.
Cost including three day FedEx shipping is ninety five dollars.
So I want to make sure we got that out

(01:49:13):
there and we'll give that again one more time. Currently
not available anywhere else except there, So you want to
make sure you go to Clearhouse Publishing dot com and
place your order there and you are happy to ship
it out to them because it is a beautiful book,
and you want to make sure that some tender loving
hands pack this up and send it out. There is

(01:49:35):
a beautiful, beautiful book, but you did a book stunning.
I wanted to give you a chance to talk a
little bit about that as well. Where did that take place?
And it was so much fun.

Speaker 8 (01:49:46):
So the Golf Heritage Society always has a trade show,
and this society is this is formed fifty three years
ago and it was originally the Golf Collectors Society. The
early members and the contemporary members they love love love
to collect, they love to buy, they love to trade,

(01:50:08):
they love to sell their stuff and it's a really
a fun day the trade show. And this year in
Pinehurst it was in a venue called the fair Barn
f a fair barn, and it was really a cool big,
kind of rustic building. It had a lot of charm,

(01:50:32):
it had a lot of character and having a golf
heritage society, you know, be the vendors. It was absolutely perfect.
So this is the first time they've done this. They
invited some member authors to have a to have tables

(01:50:52):
where they could do book signings and it was great fun.
Guys like Richard Mandel were there, An Legorie was there
with her new book. I got to have my table
right next to hers, so that that was just so
much fun. Mister Austrey was there. Jerry Austry was there

(01:51:18):
and with his book, you know, my time with mister Hogan.
So so there was a lot of different you know,
subject matters, my book not fitting into my book size
wise and and a subject matter wise. You know, I

(01:51:41):
was just I was in a world of my own.
I don't know how, let's just say it. But it
was really really fun for people to come marching up
to my table and say I want to buy your book,
and you know, then I would get to sign it
to for them and inscribe it to them. And you know,

(01:52:02):
several people were buying books to give his gifts, so
they wanted him inscribed to this person to that person,
and different, you know, different messages, and I'm so particular.
There was one guy who wanted four, and he kept
coming back to the table and I'm like, oh, John,

(01:52:24):
I'm sorry, I've only done one so far. People were coming,
oh John, I've only done two so far, and he
had driven down from Pennsylvania so he wanted to take
them all back with him. Well, by the end of
the day, he finally got all four of his books
all signed and wrapped them. Extremely particular about how my

(01:52:44):
books are are handled, and they have to be, you know,
really handled with care because they're big and they're heavy,
So I wrapped them. I have a very particular way
of of wrap. And even when I was over overseas
this summer and my first books were shipped into the US,

(01:53:07):
I had trained somebody to wrap them just so. And
one guy even wrote to me who got a book,
and he said the book was fabulous, but but the
packaging was I've never seen anything like this before. It
is the best, the best packaging I've ever seen. So
that that that was also very gratifying.

Speaker 3 (01:53:30):
Yeah, well, I mean when you're when you're putting something
together like this, that is meant to be really not
just to read and enjoy what's between the covers, but
it's meant to really be a piece that you can
have on your coffee coffee table or some other area
that it's almost like a display. I mean, you want

(01:53:51):
to have care, you don't want to eaten all up
and you know, somebody receiving that in the mail and
or a curry or what have you. Uh, and it's
all you know, bent and twisted and and you know
half it's missing because they've been chopping it around. So
you know, you have to trust me.

Speaker 8 (01:54:07):
I know, I've dealt with her.

Speaker 3 (01:54:10):
Oh yeah, I mean I've had plenty of my own
on receiving end, so I know. But yes, I remember
when you chipped me on how beautifully wrapped it was
in that so thank you for that. But yeah, there's
so much. Yeah, there's so much in the book, and
I mean we could go through a lot of things,
but the truth of the matter is we want people
to buy this. This is something that they're going to experience.

(01:54:32):
There's so many great things. There's so many great people
that you know, you featured in the book. There's great places,
great courses, you know, talk about the wines, and it
truly is a golf book for wine lovers as well.
It's not just about golf, but it's about you know,
wine as well, and those are your two passions. So again,

(01:54:53):
if you're listening to the show and you want to
get one of these or more for yourself, go to
Clerehouse Publishing dot Calm, very simple to or that's where
it's available right now, and it is includes in the
price for the ninety five dollars includes the FedEx three
day shipping airshipping, I might add, so you get it
pretty quick and it's going to be safe and secure

(01:55:16):
and snug as a bug and a rug as they say,
and tava Is is happy to ensure that it arrives
safe but makes a great gift not only to yourself,
but if you're with the holidays coming up, now's the
time to get it. Let's think of that you know
family member that might really appreciate this, and let's you know,

(01:55:38):
get out there and get it as a gift. And
I don't want to forget my friends at the Golf
Parents Society. You can also visit after the show their
website golf Parentage dot org. So make sure you check
out as well.

Speaker 8 (01:55:48):
Here fantastic, But can I can I add one just
one more thing. One thing we discovered talking to people
about carowef Golf is there are a lot of people
interested in giving it as a corporate gift. And so
I also have the ability to to create custom dust

(01:56:10):
cover dust jackets. Oh so uh so that a corporation
could have their own branding. So you know, we have
an and clubs that have a member guest for men
and a member guest for women. You know, they could
also have you know, it can be it could be
personalized for the for their club and their events. So

(01:56:32):
that's something to keep in mind.

Speaker 3 (01:56:35):
So it's not just a coffee table book. It's so
much more, as as Tava has just explained. So whether
you're the head of a corporation and you want to
have it customized, she can do that for you, or
at a club you want to have it custom for
the club as well. But either way, Uh, if you
go to Claire i was publishing dot com, uh, it's
available there. You can order it right online and it'll

(01:56:56):
be shipped within just a few days through FedEx. Tava,
thanks thank you very very much for coming on and
talking about this. I know, like I said, there's so
much in this book. I mean, we would be here
for days trying to get through everything, and I want
people to buy it and enjoy it as I've been
enjoying it. I still have much more, as I said,
at three hundred and fifty two pages, so there's a
lot to read, but a lot of beautiful images. It's

(01:57:17):
just a great book, very well put together, and I
think it's going to do extremely well. You actually sold
out at the book signing, so obviously it wasn't just
a gentleman from up north that bought four copies. Others
were buying it as well, so I'm sure he's going
to give those some of those as gifts as well.
But thank you very very much for coming on tonight

(01:57:39):
and always look forward to our chat. And I really
appreciate you sending me a copy of the book. I'm
enjoying it so far and all I enjoy as I
read through to the end. But thank you for sharing that,
and also thanks for sharing about the Golf Heriage's annual
national convention that took plate just a couple of weeks ago,

(01:57:59):
and one of the guest speakers as well. I know
they appreciate that. And of course at Pinehurst and the
home of the USGA's satellite and the Golf Hall of
Fame as well. The World Golf Hall of Fame is
now located there. But thank you for joining me to
back home.

Speaker 8 (01:58:16):
It's word belongs. I am so humble, so honored to
be on your show and have all this time with you,
all this luxurious, luxurious time. My heart felt appreciation for
taking an interest in me as a writer, and also
the Golf Heritage Society. You know, we want to grow
the society and so we would love to have some

(01:58:38):
more people discover us. And I'm just you know, I'm
just I'm just I'm just so grateful to have to
have been introduced to you and be on your show.

Speaker 3 (01:58:53):
Thank you so much, well, thank thank you. You're welcome
back anytime. I imagine you'll be writing more books than
when that time. I'll be happy to come and help
share that one as well. But for this one again,
for those of you that want to get more information
on the Golf Parriage Society, go to Golf Parentage dot org.
And for those of you that want to learn more
and certainly purchase one of our copy of her book

(01:59:17):
or more Tewah of Golf Golf Book for Wine Lovers.
Go to Clearhouse Publishing dot com and you can order
it right there. Thank you very much again, Taba all
the best and I guess I'll see it at the
PGA Show.

Speaker 8 (01:59:30):
I hope. So let's make a plan.

Speaker 3 (01:59:33):
Yeah, okay, definitely do you have a great thank you
for joining on golf dok Live. Byebye bye bye. All right,
we ran a little bit over time, but not to worry,
all of that will be available on the recorded version.
I want to thank all of my special guests tonight,
guys from the Coaches Corner, John Hughes and Clint Wright,
and then also my very special guest, the author of

(01:59:54):
Tewah of Golf, Taba Dale. God bless everybody. Have a
great weekend and I will see next week right here
on Golf Talklive.

Speaker 1 (02:00:06):
Thanks for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this week's
broadcast of Golf Talklive. We'd like to thank this week's
Coach's Corner panel and a special thank you to tonight's guest.
Remember to join Ted every Thursday from six to eight
pm Central on Golf Talk Live, and be sure to
follow Ted on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. If you're interested

(02:00:27):
in being a guest on Golf Talk Live, send Ted
an email at Ted dot golf Talklive at gmail dot com.
This has been a production of the I Golf Sports
Network

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