May 6, 2024 • 47 mins
The hosts question traditional beliefs and test the traditions that have shaped karate. They discuss the concept of creative interpretation in karate kata, exploring how it goes beyond a basic understanding and infuses personal ideas and experiences. They argue that creative interpretation can lead to vague and inconsistent applications of kata, whereas they focus on understanding the original function of the movements. They also discuss the development of karate kata throughout history and the loss of specific functions over time. The hosts emphasize the importance of understanding the true essence of karate and its applications rather than relying on creative interpretations. Blog:
References:
References:
- The Enigma of Karate Kata: The Corollary of Modern and Post-modern Interpretation
- The Great Karate Myth: Unravelling the Mystery of Karate
- Barefoot Zen: The Shaolin Roots of Kung Fu and Karate
- Zen Shaolin Karate: The complete Practice, Philosophy and History
- Passai of Matsubayashi-ryu
- Shotokan's Secret: The Hidden Truth Behind Karate's Fighting Origins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Great Karaatei Myths Debunking the Legends, a podcast
that chops through the forest of martial arts folklore to
reveal the true essence of karate. Join us your hosts,
Nier Nathan and Tom As we take you on a
journey through the dojo of Doubt, where we question the
tall tales and test the traditions that have shaped karati
as we know it, from the mystical to the misunderstood.
(00:28):
We break down the myths and.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Can build up the facts.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
But don't worry, debunking doesn't mean disrespecting the art. We
will be celebrating the rich history of karate while setting
the record straight. Whether you're caesared black belt, a novice
starting your karati bath, or just a curious listener, beare
to have your preconceptions shattered and your understanding of karate deepen.
So tie up your belts, bow in, and let's get
(00:52):
ready to rumble with truth. Okay, today we're going to
be talking about the concept of creative interpretation. What does
that mean? It's about going beyond a basic understanding of
(01:14):
something and infusing your own ideas and experiences to give
it a new meaning. Well, what does that mean in
respect of karate Kata? Now, Nathan, for your PhD, you
wrote a critical essay titled the Enigma of Karaiti Kata
the Corollary of Modern and postmodern Interpretation. Here you outline
(01:37):
the development of Karaiti Kata from the intended creation to
their modern day creative interpretation. Could you expand on that
a little bit more for our listeners?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Oh, indeed, it was a It was. The idea was
to condense three previous publications, so the a Zen sholl
And Karate By which was published by Tuttle in Japan
in nineteen ninety four, Barefoot Zen, which was published by
(02:08):
Samuel Weisser in two thousand and the Great Myth or
the Great Karate Myth, which was published by the Wicked
Press in two thousand and seven, I believe. And the
idea was to show the progression of those three works
(02:29):
from the earliest one in nineteen ninety four through to
the latter one in two thousand and seven. It's a
very short work, it's condensed, it's sort of straight to
the point without having to explain everything. The upsort of
(02:50):
it is in a nutshell that if you separated karati
into two main streams which is traditionally done, the Shuri
te and the Naharte. So the karate from Shuri City
and the karate from Naha City in Okanawa sometimes called
(03:14):
children Ruined but still nahate, you are two quite distinctive
strains of karate. And essentially what I set out to
demonstrate was that in the main particularly with regard to
the shor kata or the Shuri te kata with one
(03:37):
exception Nay Hunchin, they generally tend to be weapons kata,
which is not something that the general public and the
master art world really a wanted to hear and be
wanted to to believe. So, you know, without being rude,
(03:58):
we lost the you know, we lost the Tooth Fairy
and Father Christmas.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
At the same time, the enigma really discusses, as I say,
the essence of those three publications I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
And Tom, what's your take on creative interpretation.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
I think what separates creative interpretation is from what we
do is essentially it's interpreting kata in any way and
looking for anything that kind of fits. So it's looking
at the movements of a kata and seeing what could
possibly be done with it, so it could you know,
(04:44):
lots of individuals suggest that there are lots and lots
of applications for each movement in a cata, so it
could be a punch or a throw or a lock
all at the same time, and it's applying creativity in
that way to the katas. So people have hundreds and
hundreds of different applications for their forms, and generally unarmed
(05:07):
self defense seems that is the main theme in creative
interpretation in kuiti because it's considered all to be an
unarmed martial art. And and what's different with us is
we're not looking to find lots and lots of applications
for all the techniques. We're looking to understand what the
(05:29):
overall original function is and then work out how the
movements work within that function. So one of the differences
in the research that we do, in the work that
we do is kata is really more of a recipe
and the meal is the function is the applied function
(05:53):
of it. So if you take Saysan, which is a psycatter,
in that there's a recipe for usage of the side,
which they're not. It's not specific techniques to be applied
in specific situations. It's it's a map of the territory.
(06:16):
And so you're learning what the what you can do
with those movements and when you can use them, which
you learn through the sand chine first. The sandschin is
teaches you how to correctly use the material in the
saysan and the sans areu. But I you know, I'm
(06:37):
going from a tangent there, but I'll come back to
you your question. We're not seeking to make up as
many applications as we can and be creative with what
we can do could do with a catter. We're seeking
to understand what they were originally for. And I don't
think that creative interpretation is a particularly good approach to
(07:02):
understanding kata. And my criticism of it is quite simple. Really,
if you take a movement of a kata and you
say this could be a strike or this could be
a throw, the body mechanics for both of those things
are very very different, and so punching is quite different
(07:23):
from grappling. So just using that as a very simpler example. So,
and the applications don't tend to be very concise in
terms of how the kata is performed or the way
that you do the moves in a fundamental way, and
so it's a kind of it's close to but not quite,
(07:46):
and that doesn't really fall in line with what we've
When you approach it from the original function, what you
find is is that the movements are very, very concise.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
You're the understanding of what the form does shows you
how to perform the kata. Not you learn a kata
and then make up what you can do with it,
and then it's the kata is a kind of abstract
approximation of millions of different things. And I think that's
the reason why kata are fund when approached from the
(08:25):
creative interpretation perspective, become useless as a mode of practice
or development for martial arts because if it's a throw
in the form, you really need to be performing it
like that, or if it's a strike, you really need
to be doing it like that. Otherwise, what purpose does
it serve biomechanically? I think there is a place for
(08:48):
creative interpretation. But I'll come back to that, Nathan, you
try you wanted to jump.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
In, hmm, yeah, I did. I think the trick with
a creative interpreter, or the the practice the habit with
creative interpretation is as I said, on many occasions, I
like karate. You know, here are the kata. I've been
told that the kata are the and taught that the
(09:16):
kata are the essence of karate, the backbone of karate,
the substance of karate. It's just that we're not clear
on exactly what they do. And I think that the
way that some creative interpretation, let's break that down, it's
it's to imply that the form is function is absolutely
(09:40):
not inherited. It's not clear. So creativity is used to,
you know, to make an application. And the trick with
that is to make the application, the created application, resemble
the kata, the salo kata as much as possible. And
the closer you know that a person, an individual one
(10:04):
can get to that, it creates a sense of kind
of a hierarchy, sort of a credibility. So the more
it looks like the cat, the more the more, the
more it could be sold as the cata, demonstrated as
the cata. But we've discovered that within our group, and
(10:26):
it's not been a five minute job. I think we've
been I started karate in the very early nineteen seventies
and and I soon became obsessed with this. As an aside,
I'd just say something that's been said before that it
shouldn't take that long to understand the cat or all
(10:48):
their applications, and I'll just quote again, you know, or
say again, no, if I went to a tennis coach
and said, well, I want to I'd like to learn
to play tennis, how long the take? And the coach
sort of sucked in and said, oh, you know, twenty years,
twenty thirty years, Now, that's absurd. Yet it has take it,
(11:11):
does you know? People of us, the people that were
early in on the game, it has taken more than
that's taken forty years, fifty years. In fact, that's because
the kata are unknown. So the creative interpretation is has
come about through due to the loss of the specific functions.
(11:34):
Now I pause here because it's not safe to assume
that every kata extant or available or being practiced actually
A is authentic and B hasn't an actual proper kata application. Sorry,
So I give by way of explanation, the heen within
(11:56):
the shottaken style or the pena in our the show
in rou based styles five five five kata that are
considered to be basic which were created in nineteen hundred
and eight by Athossi Anku sensei. And these are kata
(12:19):
that were created by someone who I would you know,
with respect would say, doesn't seem to have understood the
ny Hanchen kata, which was previous before his creation of
the hen or the Penan was the was the basis
of the Shuri approach to karate, and just on the
(12:41):
swift decide again the we use the term antique kata
and it could be said, well, you know, we're in
twenty twenty four, so you know, you know the pinan
kata or the he and kata are antique because they're old.
So you know, we use antique in the in in
in terms of kata being you know, very you know,
(13:05):
the core kata that the that we're sort of not
it's not we're not looking at the number one hundred,
one hundred years. It's an antique. We're looking at it
looking at the term antique as as as as the
as prototypical as the what we can loosely term the
original kata. So we've used the term antique, and we
(13:29):
also use the term modern and postmodern and the and
the the pen and en kata are modern, and they're
created and used within an environment in which the applications
to the antique kata have already been been lost. And
there's plenty of evidence that them that the the early
(13:53):
founders of traditional karate styles were absolutely unaware of the
exact applications are the cata that they taught. That's quite
a lot to say, really, and I mean absolutely no
disrespect to the sense that pioneered, can I say, or
their followed, current followers and descendants.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
I think another element of creative interpretation that's that's used
a lot is when people make statements about kata as well.
So it's not just saying if you say that a
cata is for an armed self defense or that a
move is to could be this, you're making a statement
(14:36):
about the function of the form. And so it's it's
an odd argument when we've often been presented with the
original functions are lost, there's no possible way you could
work them out. Who do you think you are? All
that kind of stuff, But I'm going to make a
statement like a kata is a complete system of unarmed combat,
(14:59):
like saying I've heard it said by some teacher that
kusang KU's a complete system of fighting, or that chinto
is or something like that. Well, you're making a statement
about the function there. And because creative interpretation really is
a kind of it's a bit of a free for all.
Anyone can say or do anything they like with a
(15:23):
kata because as long as you hold the view that
the original functions are lost and it's there to do
with whatever you like with. And I think it's a
pretty poor argument. And if you make a statement about akta,
then you know you need to back it up. If
you say something like, well, kusang KU's a complete system
(15:46):
of unarmed self defense, prove it. What on earth would
lead anyone to consider kusang kup is a complete system
of fighting? What are the core elements of a fight?
What is it need to survive a violent altercation? Those
kinds of questions which have been answered by lots and
(16:06):
lots of people that have got wealth of experience, And
what they tend to show is that what's effective in
a fight is nothing like kusan ku has nothing to
do with the kta. No and so, but it doesn't.
Because creative interpretation is so has such a powerful hold
(16:26):
in the karate world, and form based martial arts. It's
very hard to get past that. Well, it's it's you know,
it's kung thu. There's a lot that you don't know.
There's hidden stuff, and all of those statements kind of
are brought in. There's layers of application to kind of
put a space between really really questioning. What if someone
(16:50):
says kusan KU's for street fighting and you want to
say it's bullshit. What you get in return is, well,
there's layers that you don't understand. You're not at the
level yet this hidden applications and you get all of
that stuff never and they never really kind of solidly
back up what they're saying. And so you can say
(17:13):
that you would.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Tom, Tom, Tom, I've been at this for fifty years.
Are you telling me I don't know what I don't
know what I'm doing. I've been at this for fifty years. No,
you're right, You're right. Indeed, I would bress you to.
I I loved you, know, you know, knowledge that we
share for which I'm eternally will be eternally grateful that
(17:41):
I would ask you to to Sorry. You know, I'm
doing your job, but I would ask you to on
this theme because you know, you talk so well about
the idea that some teachers have a principle based that
catter are principle based, because because actually on the on
the on hearing, that seems to make sense. Well, we're
not looking at explicit techniques, you know, we're looking at
(18:05):
you know, principles. We're looking at people have collected principles,
and that's what the catter are.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, I think when you get that, it's a kind
of it's a side step to when somebody says, well,
it's it's it's a representation of principles. It's kind of
side stepping really explaining what the what the movements are really,
why why those movements catalog together? Why is kusang ku
(18:37):
the way it is? Why those why those movements? And
it's it's a way of sight and saying something's got
layers of application. It's side stepping really because you can
just kind of say anything really and you can keep
getting away with it. But when you know, you start
looking at for the original function. Is there a common theme?
And I don't automatically assume that all of the form
(19:00):
that we have for something in the first place, some
of them might be absolute rubbish. It's not that we've
got these antique forms and they're automatically qualified as something
special or something to revere, although it certainly seems to
be the case that a lot of them are just
wonderful systems of martial skills or you know, or you
(19:25):
know within a very specific context and specific function. I
don't mean broadly abstract like saying well it's street fighting
or a deadly system of kung fu, and so the
when you look at these, you know, the original functions,
and you start to see them and they start to
(19:45):
reveal them. Said, you have to be able to explain
why those techniques are put together? Is there a good
reason for that? And creative interpretation is a way of
really avoiding answering that question.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Well, they can't answer, or it's it doesn't satisfactorially answer
Why the kata are in the order?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Is the order significant? And you know, if you take
a cata like plasi, it's it's quite on you. And
I'm just going to look for anyone that wants to
look at up the Matsubayashi version, have a look at that.
Maybe we'll post a link to that someone Nagamine Shoshan
performing it or something like that. It's really really unusual,
(20:34):
the movements, the openings unusual. It's got some really peculiar positions.
It's not particularly long. There's quite not a great deal
of techniques in it. And you know, if you look
at that, what's that got to do with a fight? Nothing?
Absolutely nothing, if anything, If you practice that to prepare
(20:59):
yourself for a fight, you're probably likely to hurt yourself
on top of someone hurt in you. But so it
was that was that form ever something? It ends up
in Shuri and Tamari. You know, was it ever something?
(21:20):
And it seems to be the case that it was,
and you know, will post the evidence for this at
some point. It's a way. There's a series of techniques
for holding onto your own weapon, predominantly a poll arm,
so a bow or a short spear. It's what to
(21:42):
do if someone grabs your weapon and tries to take
it away from you. And suddenly, when you go through it,
the techniques in order suddenly start to give you a
map of the territory of the different ways that someone's
going to grab, potentially grab and try and pull your
own weapon out of your hands, and you hang onto
(22:05):
it and how to hang onto it and once you
the main theme is to kind of twist, push and
bump the person off. You end up in a position
where you're then able to use the weapon. So the
main consideration is to get the person off the weapon
your own weapon, and then be in a position afterwards
(22:27):
in which to use the weapon. And it's quite remarkable,
and whoever put it together, it was absolutely brilliant, and
there's nothing more than that in the form, a quite
specific function brought together. Those moves suddenly make remarkable sense
and they fit perfectly, and you don't need to modify
(22:48):
what you do in the solo form. I'm not talking
about the you know, the kind of tussle bit or
the grapple bit, but the fundamental twists, turns, bumps, pulls,
pushes and strike in it are as as you do
in the kata, so you're working a specific set of skills.
(23:10):
Just as a one last point on that, it's so
interesting that that ended up in Shuri and Tamari, and
I wonder. It makes me wonder about the history of
that form, whether it was collected to bodyguarding the palace.
These are only suggestions. I've got no evidence with this bit,
(23:31):
and I'd never claim that. But isn't it fortunate that
a form which would the Shuri Palace guards used bow staffs,
they used pole arms. Isn't it fortunate that that form
ended up there. I'm not saying that the function was transmitted,
but almost as a ritual or a you know, an
(23:55):
emulation historically that that that specific set of techniques that
is known as passei cat ends up there. Yeah, that's
so it's a few points there in and out of
creative interpretation and and how it the difference in what
(24:16):
we do and how that's applied to passi pass is
often now interpreted is that this deadly deadly combative techniques
and throwing techniques and things like that. But it doesn't
explain the sequence. It doesn't explain why those particular techniques.
It doesn't explain what's absent, what's missing, and and and
(24:40):
so you know, you can go on ad nausea with this.
It's it's it just goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Well, it's interesting to note that the Passei keeps company
with with other cutter traditional cutter that that that find
themselves in company with it, and are also seemingly have
connections with the Royal Shuri Palace, so Chintai Jinto, sorry,
(25:07):
Pasai kushenku, those those kata i. You know, there's nothing
to suggest that there was a curriculum that said, as
there is in karate that says that you well, you
have to learn all of these, you know, you have
to learn you know, nine nine kata and or so
in the case of I think go Juru twelve kata
(25:32):
or shutter can karate twenty seven and as I always say,
grow and growing kata. There's no evidence to suggest that
these were all linked together. So if you're guarding one
part of the palace or you've got and I'm sure
there would be rotation like there is in any kind
(25:52):
of policing, assuming that that's what we're talking about here,
But you know, if you're the chaps on the front,
and it probably would be chaps you're on the front gate,
and you know, if you've got certain duties, that's to
let people in and out of the gate and deal
with anyone that could be problematic, which given that the
(26:12):
culture was was was was largely a credibly civilized are
you not going to get necessary but I'm not idealistic
about that. You're not going to get a surgeon football crowd,
but as we know from history that they often were
upsets and problems. But the guard at the gate has
got a different job from the guard inside the palace,
(26:34):
and the guard on the second floor will have a
different set of duties. And I think it was we
had a magnificent conversation Tom, you and I which in
which you made a you know, a startling observation which
I probably think I'd like to let you say because
I don't want to, you know, take your idea and
(26:57):
make it look as if I knew it all the one,
because I did not. And it was your idea about
the the use of a bow staff for six or
seven or eight foot stuff depending on who's country, the
long oak staff used in in In and all kinds
(27:18):
of mostly you're ok and Aaron and Japanese martial arts,
but used all over the world. But the what appears
to be a strike to the foot using that staff,
and I would invite you to share your insight into
into what's going on there.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Well, when we were looking at the looking at the
different environments which might the you know, the different as
part of the context for these forms would be used,
and we the idea was actually inspired. I need to
check the I think it's Bruce Clayton wrote a book
(28:00):
Secrets of showter Can or something like that. It's a
really really brilliant book. I'll double check and I'll put
a link to it with this film. The book, and
I suggest people really because he's got some brilliant, brilliant
ideas and thinking in it. But he describes quite carefully
the layout of shiry Palace and he talks about his
(28:23):
one of his his thesis is that some of the
kata were to be used in the palace under different circumstances.
And that's a brilliant and that inspired me when looking
at the antique forms and when you look at the kabudo,
and that's a huge side. You know, it just kind
of runs parallel with the history of karate, particularly bojutsu
(28:44):
use of the staff site and tom fa in Okinawa
that lots of the techniques are a bit questionable really
whether they be effective. So this technique where you're kind
of crossing the spear downward the bow excuse me to
hit the foot or the ankle, and it just looks
(29:05):
a bit you think, ye, how are you going to
land that you know you're going to need a tremendous
amount of space. I'm never really keen on it, but
it's always done in a single in a dojo, so
they're interpreting it based on face to face in the dojo.
And after reading Clayton's book and I hope it's Bruce Clayton,
(29:28):
and if I've got it wrong, I will correct that.
He talks about how they would have defended the king
and the king's exit route through the palace and it
would have gone up a flight of stairs and down
some passages, quite narrow passages and things like that, and
it's really got me thinking that perhaps some of these
techniques are meant to be done on two levels, or
(29:49):
perhaps holding people back or at the top of a
flight of stairs, so thrusting a bow downwards, the chances
of hitting someone's foot at distance are quite but what
a great movement to stop people coming up the stairs
and these kind of low level swinging the bow and
you can look at and Owen bowkata and see lots
(30:12):
of people doing these low swings followed by a low thrust.
What a great way to sweep someone's weapon out the
way coming up the stairs and thrust down into the face.
Wherever you hit with the end of a bow is
going to really hurt. But it's just an idea, and
that's creative interpretation as well. And when I said that
creative interpretation's got its place, it's kind of considering, after
(30:37):
you've got the function of the form, how it might
have may have been used. Because this is all speculation.
But if the bow jutsu, a lot of it was
for guarding the palace, there would have been a consideration
of the layout of the palace and what you would
have used. And is very interesting that some bow cat
(31:00):
that don't have particularly wild swinging movements, they're quite concise
and performed in quite a narrow space, and you think, well,
if you're indoors with that or in a passage and
things like that. And this brings me back round to
the goju shiho originally being for tom for again dealing
with a pole arm, possibly a spear, and it seems
(31:23):
to operate in a very very small space. It's being
able to use the ton for and maneuver and work
at very very close quarters without huge movements, without retreating away.
It's all done very much in very very close contact.
(31:43):
Would that make sense outside, No, because as soon as
you've got someone's got space to step back or move away,
it's going to be it's really problematic. But to use
the ton fora at distance and I it's one of
the kind of dueling things I just don't buy when
(32:04):
you see the sigh or the tom for used blocking
a bow or done on the kind of distance that
you would fight with a bow as opposed to the
tom fora where you should really be able to smell
their breath. That's the fighting range for the For the
tom for anything outside of that, you're going to be
in big trouble. But the gojyushiho is brutally effective when
(32:29):
you're in that tom for range and you stay in
it and the it kind of makes kind of makes
sense that that would be before used indoors or in
a narrow space, in a small contained space where there
isn't the opportunity for space to be creative that would
created that would be the that would give the use
(32:49):
of the tom for a real advantage. So yeah, there's
I'm kind of jumping about there. But to come back
to Nathan's original question, Yeah, is considering the the use
of the bow determined by the layout of the palace,
which is what the palace guards would have done, and
that may shed some light on some of the more
(33:10):
obscure techniques with the bow which are commonly performed across
the board in bojutsu styles in Okinawa, which I think
generally originate with probably less than half a dozen forms,
which have kind of branched out become lots and lots
of things. Andreas Quast has done some great research and
(33:30):
he's got a book out about it now which will
probably shed a lot more light on it.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head
with the limited number of forms, because there is that
idea out there which I don't agree with at all,
that the more forms one learns, the more experienced one
gets and the more variation there. And my point, my
(33:58):
view on that is the more of it you learn,
the more confuse your potential you can potentially come. Now,
I think if we looked at other branch, any branches
of policing, So let's just take policing in in the UK,
for example, Policing has its specialities and you know this
is a bit we've discussed this before, but it's still
(34:19):
appropriate in this context to discuss it again that they
you know, the police have various forms of method. You know,
there are officers that ride motorcycles, others that handle dogs,
others that drive vans, you know, others that drive the
motorway cars. You know, they're all police officers, but they've
(34:41):
all got specialized skills and used different tools. And one
wouldn't expect, you know, to work as a workaday police
officer to be using all of that. You know. Well,
you know this small I've got my dogs in my van,
you know, and and my motorcycle on the roof rack,
you know, just in case. You know, I've got all
(35:04):
of this stuff collected together because I'm a policeman. So
this is nonsense. Clearly, you know, there are different specialties
and I think that's what the kata and the various
skills represent. And the reason for our association and work
(35:24):
is that we've got to that to a I would say,
an unusual place where with many of the antique catter
previously described, we are able to be very specific about
the functions and we are not in a And you're
very open and honest and saying in your discussion about
(35:47):
the bow Tom that you know that you could be
involved in creative interpretation. You ye know, that's social your
genuineness and openness in research. But if we shift gear
for a minute and pop over to the nahar kata,
(36:08):
you know, the which would ultimately become goju karate and weichiarate,
then it's that's a great starting point, particularly with the
weichi santin kata, to show how yes, you can have
an incredibly clear set of applications. But and then moving
(36:34):
on systematically to the seisan and the sense said, do
you because these kata normally come in threes sanchin seysan
San say to you, you can see the master kata
the sanchin with two superb essays, I would call them
the seysan And the san said to you, that are
just developments of the of the theme that is so
(36:58):
brilliantly laid down in the Sandsun. And I'd make it
clear here we are not here talking about empty hand,
unarmed combat at all. Because to perform those kata, to
apply them in the way they were intended, one needs
to be equipped with a pair of si, the pronged
(37:23):
civil arrest tools that are well known to many martial artists.
For anyone that's the beginner. You need to look it up.
CI s A I.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
I'm just going to add I just add a couple
more things. I think that if the starting point with
kata is creative interpretation, meaning you kind of make up
what the moves mean and do do what you want
with it, I think that's the wrong time for creative interpretation.
I think that the time for creative interpretation is when
(37:58):
you work. You know, we've got through these cat and
we're not saying that we've got the the answers or
anything like that. But if someone takes time to research
the original function of a form, the time for creative
interpretation will be to what to do with it afterwards.
So is it possible to create a practice with it?
(38:20):
You know, it's difficult with the weight chi forms being siul.
What can we do with it? Well, we can't do
a lot. We can't go out and police with it.
So that I think, and it's the same with something
like passi, which is retaining your weapon. Then you've got
kusang ku, which is disarming a weapon, or goju shiho,
(38:41):
which is a ton for against a polar You know,
once you know those things, well, what do you do
with it, and I think that's where there's the potential
for creative interpretation of those skills. Can we do something
which perhaps is a bit engaging and we can enjoy
and experience those skills to assert and degree with another person.
(39:03):
Might come in the form of some sort of payers
practice or something like that, something quite simple. Obviously not
confusing it that you're becoming deadly with the weapon itself.
You're just engaging creatively with something that's been understood about
these sets of martial skills. And I think that's where
(39:27):
creative interpretation has it. You know, it has massive, massive potential.
But yeah, when it's used as sort of sidestep, not
really taking a good hard look at the material, I
think that's when it can become quite problematic.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
I think actually, just before we do sign off and
make one more comment too, that I think to really
stick to the point what we're discussing here, what we
have been discussing is the simple fact that these kata
and under analysis are not unarmed maneuvers against multiple opponents,
(40:13):
as laid down by the Japan Karate Association headed up
by Naki Yama sense He wrote that you know they
were blocking punching, striking and kicking, and that they were
you know, against multiple opponents. It's not something I can
agree with at all. As much as I respect naki
(40:33):
Yama sensei, the late naki Yama sensei uh and his work,
and you know, and the Japan Karatei Federation and the
former Japan Karate Association, they produced magnificent karatka, but these
kata are not fights against multiple opponents, and they are
(40:54):
not on armed self defense. And I confidently predicted this
a very early on, way before the advent of mixed
martial arts and cage fighting, etc. That they would never work,
you know, under those circumstances. And they do not because
the context is profoundly lacking. You know. They are not
(41:18):
fights against multiple opponents, and they are not unarmed ballistic
you know, punch up preparations for punch ups even against
a singular opponent. And I think probably with one exception,
which is a nigh hansion, they basically will involve weapons
of one type or another. And I think that's just
(41:40):
I think my final point in this cast.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
So where does that leave the millions of karate practitioners
who thought they were practicing unarmed self defense and now
find themselves practicing kata that are armed forms of combat.
Where does that leave them? Does it leave them with
re enacting sixteenth seventeenth century life in China?
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Well, I think that would be up to well, I
think that's up to what you know. It's it's not
we're not dictating how any of this should then be used.
We're just saying, this is what we found. You can
do with it what you want. And I think that
if you take so. I mean when Nathan discovered that
(42:30):
the way she Sanchin was signed, the disappointment in the
group was just people. People left, They walked out, people
were so up. It's not like we go, well, it's
say this is brilliant, My god, the dis I remember
my own my own disappointment. I had a phone call
(42:52):
from a very close friend who phone me and he said,
you're not going to believe this. Nathan has said that
the wait that san Chin is sigh and my first
reaction was like, oh god, what what now? And but
and so it's not been. It's not been this kind
(43:12):
of tremendous, joyous ride where we've got what we wanted
or this is we're making it something like this is
what we really fancy it to be or something like that.
It's accepting whatever it is, and it's it's not it's
not been you know, it's not been particularly fun in
(43:34):
some parts of it. It's it's absolutely fascinating now that
knowing what it is, people can then do what they
want with it. If they want to do a re
enactment with Sanchin Saysan and Sun said, do you great
be my guest. If people want to still continue to
interpret it as an armed combat cap fine and carry on.
But I think we talked about this before, holding material
(43:56):
to a particular standard holding for you and the things
that the statements that we make about catter, the statements
that we how we approach karate and form based martial
arts and things like that. You know, we're just putting
our ten cents worth out there. The last thing I'll
just and I promise this would be absolutely the last
(44:17):
thing I say, is if we were around during the
time that the Rosetta Stone was dug up or discovered
and we didn't know what it meant and we weren't
able to translate it, I think I think most people
would agree that it would be a pretty bad idea
(44:38):
to just creatively interpret what was in front of you
and make up a meaning and to say, well, you
can this is what I want it to be, or
this is what I would like it to be. I
think the general consensus would be that everyone would be
striving to really understood what was written down on that
(45:01):
on that.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
This is this is the this is the Egyptians. Yeah,
this is the stone with the Egyptian hieroglyphs and the.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah, we'll put a picture to Greek. Right, Well, we'll
put a link to it. And it's a fascinating it's
worth the time just to read it and to think
for a moment whether if you were there in that,
in that moment of discovery, would you go, I can't
read it, So I'm just going to make it up.
And it's a kind of side stepping the actual work involved,
(45:27):
and what we're encouraging people is to go, hang on,
I'm going to take a bit more time with this
and see if there is something of value here be
you know. And and so it's a kind of crude
example of creative interpretation. And I don't mean that to
to criticize or be rude about other people and other
(45:53):
karatea or other karate teachers or anything like that, because
I think people can do whatever they want. But it's
it's it's having that mindset. That's where we're coming from.
We've got these kata, we're not looking at them and
just saying, well, this is what we're really really striving to,
really understand what the functions of these forms were originally
(46:18):
intended for the context reuse, and we're putting it all
to the test and seeing what we can do with
it all. That's where we're really going with all of that.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah, and that's all the time we have left. Gents,
Thanks once again for this very insightful conversation and we'll
see you next time on Great Karate Myths.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Thank you very much, gentlemen, Thank you, thank.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
You for joining us on this enlightening journey through the
myths and legends of karate. If you've enjoyed our podcast,
don't forget to subscribe and share it with fellow martial
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Your contribution helps us bring you more episodes. Remember, your
(47:06):
support keeps the Karate myth debunked and the podcast alive.
Welcome to Great Karaatei Myths Debunking the Legends, a podcast
that chops through the forest of martial arts folklore to
reveal the true essence of karate. Join us your hosts,
Nier Nathan and Tom As we take you on a
journey through the dojo of Doubt, where we question the
tall tales and test the traditions that have shaped karati
as we know it, from the mystical to the misunderstood.
(00:28):
We break down the myths and.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Can build up the facts.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
But don't worry, debunking doesn't mean disrespecting the art. We
will be celebrating the rich history of karate while setting
the record straight. Whether you're caesared black belt, a novice
starting your karati bath, or just a curious listener, beare
to have your preconceptions shattered and your understanding of karate deepen.
So tie up your belts, bow in, and let's get
(00:52):
ready to rumble with truth. Okay, today we're going to
be talking about the concept of creative interpretation. What does
that mean? It's about going beyond a basic understanding of
(01:14):
something and infusing your own ideas and experiences to give
it a new meaning. Well, what does that mean in
respect of karate Kata? Now, Nathan, for your PhD, you
wrote a critical essay titled the Enigma of Karaiti Kata
the Corollary of Modern and postmodern Interpretation. Here you outline
(01:37):
the development of Karaiti Kata from the intended creation to
their modern day creative interpretation. Could you expand on that
a little bit more for our listeners?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Oh, indeed, it was a It was. The idea was
to condense three previous publications, so the a Zen sholl
And Karate By which was published by Tuttle in Japan
in nineteen ninety four, Barefoot Zen, which was published by
(02:08):
Samuel Weisser in two thousand and the Great Myth or
the Great Karate Myth, which was published by the Wicked
Press in two thousand and seven, I believe. And the
idea was to show the progression of those three works
(02:29):
from the earliest one in nineteen ninety four through to
the latter one in two thousand and seven. It's a
very short work, it's condensed, it's sort of straight to
the point without having to explain everything. The upsort of
(02:50):
it is in a nutshell that if you separated karati
into two main streams which is traditionally done, the Shuri
te and the Naharte. So the karate from Shuri City
and the karate from Naha City in Okanawa sometimes called
(03:14):
children Ruined but still nahate, you are two quite distinctive
strains of karate. And essentially what I set out to
demonstrate was that in the main particularly with regard to
the shor kata or the Shuri te kata with one
(03:37):
exception Nay Hunchin, they generally tend to be weapons kata,
which is not something that the general public and the
master art world really a wanted to hear and be
wanted to to believe. So, you know, without being rude,
(03:58):
we lost the you know, we lost the Tooth Fairy
and Father Christmas.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
At the same time, the enigma really discusses, as I say,
the essence of those three publications I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
And Tom, what's your take on creative interpretation.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
I think what separates creative interpretation is from what we
do is essentially it's interpreting kata in any way and
looking for anything that kind of fits. So it's looking
at the movements of a kata and seeing what could
possibly be done with it, so it could you know,
(04:44):
lots of individuals suggest that there are lots and lots
of applications for each movement in a cata, so it
could be a punch or a throw or a lock
all at the same time, and it's applying creativity in
that way to the katas. So people have hundreds and
hundreds of different applications for their forms, and generally unarmed
(05:07):
self defense seems that is the main theme in creative
interpretation in kuiti because it's considered all to be an
unarmed martial art. And and what's different with us is
we're not looking to find lots and lots of applications
for all the techniques. We're looking to understand what the
(05:29):
overall original function is and then work out how the
movements work within that function. So one of the differences
in the research that we do, in the work that
we do is kata is really more of a recipe
and the meal is the function is the applied function
(05:53):
of it. So if you take Saysan, which is a psycatter,
in that there's a recipe for usage of the side,
which they're not. It's not specific techniques to be applied
in specific situations. It's it's a map of the territory.
(06:16):
And so you're learning what the what you can do
with those movements and when you can use them, which
you learn through the sand chine first. The sandschin is
teaches you how to correctly use the material in the
saysan and the sans areu. But I you know, I'm
(06:37):
going from a tangent there, but I'll come back to
you your question. We're not seeking to make up as
many applications as we can and be creative with what
we can do could do with a catter. We're seeking
to understand what they were originally for. And I don't
think that creative interpretation is a particularly good approach to
(07:02):
understanding kata. And my criticism of it is quite simple. Really,
if you take a movement of a kata and you
say this could be a strike or this could be
a throw, the body mechanics for both of those things
are very very different, and so punching is quite different
(07:23):
from grappling. So just using that as a very simpler example. So,
and the applications don't tend to be very concise in
terms of how the kata is performed or the way
that you do the moves in a fundamental way, and
so it's a kind of it's close to but not quite,
(07:46):
and that doesn't really fall in line with what we've
When you approach it from the original function, what you
find is is that the movements are very, very concise.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
You're the understanding of what the form does shows you
how to perform the kata. Not you learn a kata
and then make up what you can do with it,
and then it's the kata is a kind of abstract
approximation of millions of different things. And I think that's
the reason why kata are fund when approached from the
(08:25):
creative interpretation perspective, become useless as a mode of practice
or development for martial arts because if it's a throw
in the form, you really need to be performing it
like that, or if it's a strike, you really need
to be doing it like that. Otherwise, what purpose does
it serve biomechanically? I think there is a place for
(08:48):
creative interpretation. But I'll come back to that, Nathan, you
try you wanted to jump.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
In, hmm, yeah, I did. I think the trick with
a creative interpreter, or the the practice the habit with
creative interpretation is as I said, on many occasions, I
like karate. You know, here are the kata. I've been
told that the kata are the and taught that the
(09:16):
kata are the essence of karate, the backbone of karate,
the substance of karate. It's just that we're not clear
on exactly what they do. And I think that the
way that some creative interpretation, let's break that down, it's
it's to imply that the form is function is absolutely
(09:40):
not inherited. It's not clear. So creativity is used to,
you know, to make an application. And the trick with
that is to make the application, the created application, resemble
the kata, the salo kata as much as possible. And
the closer you know that a person, an individual one
(10:04):
can get to that, it creates a sense of kind
of a hierarchy, sort of a credibility. So the more
it looks like the cat, the more the more, the
more it could be sold as the cata, demonstrated as
the cata. But we've discovered that within our group, and
(10:26):
it's not been a five minute job. I think we've
been I started karate in the very early nineteen seventies
and and I soon became obsessed with this. As an aside,
I'd just say something that's been said before that it
shouldn't take that long to understand the cat or all
(10:48):
their applications, and I'll just quote again, you know, or
say again, no, if I went to a tennis coach
and said, well, I want to I'd like to learn
to play tennis, how long the take? And the coach
sort of sucked in and said, oh, you know, twenty years,
twenty thirty years, Now, that's absurd. Yet it has take it,
(11:11):
does you know? People of us, the people that were
early in on the game, it has taken more than
that's taken forty years, fifty years. In fact, that's because
the kata are unknown. So the creative interpretation is has
come about through due to the loss of the specific functions.
(11:34):
Now I pause here because it's not safe to assume
that every kata extant or available or being practiced actually
A is authentic and B hasn't an actual proper kata application. Sorry,
So I give by way of explanation, the heen within
(11:56):
the shottaken style or the pena in our the show
in rou based styles five five five kata that are
considered to be basic which were created in nineteen hundred
and eight by Athossi Anku sensei. And these are kata
(12:19):
that were created by someone who I would you know,
with respect would say, doesn't seem to have understood the
ny Hanchen kata, which was previous before his creation of
the hen or the Penan was the was the basis
of the Shuri approach to karate, and just on the
(12:41):
swift decide again the we use the term antique kata
and it could be said, well, you know, we're in
twenty twenty four, so you know, you know the pinan
kata or the he and kata are antique because they're old.
So you know, we use antique in the in in
in terms of kata being you know, very you know,
(13:05):
the core kata that the that we're sort of not
it's not we're not looking at the number one hundred,
one hundred years. It's an antique. We're looking at it
looking at the term antique as as as as the
as prototypical as the what we can loosely term the
original kata. So we've used the term antique, and we
(13:29):
also use the term modern and postmodern and the and
the the pen and en kata are modern, and they're
created and used within an environment in which the applications
to the antique kata have already been been lost. And
there's plenty of evidence that them that the the early
(13:53):
founders of traditional karate styles were absolutely unaware of the
exact applications are the cata that they taught. That's quite
a lot to say, really, and I mean absolutely no
disrespect to the sense that pioneered, can I say, or
their followed, current followers and descendants.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
I think another element of creative interpretation that's that's used
a lot is when people make statements about kata as well.
So it's not just saying if you say that a
cata is for an armed self defense or that a
move is to could be this, you're making a statement
(14:36):
about the function of the form. And so it's it's
an odd argument when we've often been presented with the
original functions are lost, there's no possible way you could
work them out. Who do you think you are? All
that kind of stuff, But I'm going to make a
statement like a kata is a complete system of unarmed combat,
(14:59):
like saying I've heard it said by some teacher that
kusang KU's a complete system of fighting, or that chinto
is or something like that. Well, you're making a statement
about the function there. And because creative interpretation really is
a kind of it's a bit of a free for all.
Anyone can say or do anything they like with a
(15:23):
kata because as long as you hold the view that
the original functions are lost and it's there to do
with whatever you like with. And I think it's a
pretty poor argument. And if you make a statement about akta,
then you know you need to back it up. If
you say something like, well, kusang KU's a complete system
(15:46):
of unarmed self defense, prove it. What on earth would
lead anyone to consider kusang kup is a complete system
of fighting? What are the core elements of a fight?
What is it need to survive a violent altercation? Those
kinds of questions which have been answered by lots and
(16:06):
lots of people that have got wealth of experience, And
what they tend to show is that what's effective in
a fight is nothing like kusan ku has nothing to
do with the kta. No and so, but it doesn't.
Because creative interpretation is so has such a powerful hold
(16:26):
in the karate world, and form based martial arts. It's
very hard to get past that. Well, it's it's you know,
it's kung thu. There's a lot that you don't know.
There's hidden stuff, and all of those statements kind of
are brought in. There's layers of application to kind of
put a space between really really questioning. What if someone
(16:50):
says kusan KU's for street fighting and you want to
say it's bullshit. What you get in return is, well,
there's layers that you don't understand. You're not at the
level yet this hidden applications and you get all of
that stuff never and they never really kind of solidly
back up what they're saying. And so you can say
(17:13):
that you would.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Tom, Tom, Tom, I've been at this for fifty years.
Are you telling me I don't know what I don't
know what I'm doing. I've been at this for fifty years. No,
you're right, You're right. Indeed, I would bress you to.
I I loved you, know, you know, knowledge that we
share for which I'm eternally will be eternally grateful that
(17:41):
I would ask you to to Sorry. You know, I'm
doing your job, but I would ask you to on
this theme because you know, you talk so well about
the idea that some teachers have a principle based that
catter are principle based, because because actually on the on
the on hearing, that seems to make sense. Well, we're
not looking at explicit techniques, you know, we're looking at
(18:05):
you know, principles. We're looking at people have collected principles,
and that's what the catter are.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, I think when you get that, it's a kind
of it's a side step to when somebody says, well,
it's it's it's a representation of principles. It's kind of
side stepping really explaining what the what the movements are really,
why why those movements catalog together? Why is kusang ku
(18:37):
the way it is? Why those why those movements? And
it's it's a way of sight and saying something's got
layers of application. It's side stepping really because you can
just kind of say anything really and you can keep
getting away with it. But when you know, you start
looking at for the original function. Is there a common theme?
And I don't automatically assume that all of the form
(19:00):
that we have for something in the first place, some
of them might be absolute rubbish. It's not that we've
got these antique forms and they're automatically qualified as something
special or something to revere, although it certainly seems to
be the case that a lot of them are just
wonderful systems of martial skills or you know, or you
(19:25):
know within a very specific context and specific function. I
don't mean broadly abstract like saying well it's street fighting
or a deadly system of kung fu, and so the
when you look at these, you know, the original functions,
and you start to see them and they start to
(19:45):
reveal them. Said, you have to be able to explain
why those techniques are put together? Is there a good
reason for that? And creative interpretation is a way of
really avoiding answering that question.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Well, they can't answer, or it's it doesn't satisfactorially answer
Why the kata are in the order?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Is the order significant? And you know, if you take
a cata like plasi, it's it's quite on you. And
I'm just going to look for anyone that wants to
look at up the Matsubayashi version, have a look at that.
Maybe we'll post a link to that someone Nagamine Shoshan
performing it or something like that. It's really really unusual,
(20:34):
the movements, the openings unusual. It's got some really peculiar positions.
It's not particularly long. There's quite not a great deal
of techniques in it. And you know, if you look
at that, what's that got to do with a fight? Nothing?
Absolutely nothing, if anything, If you practice that to prepare
(20:59):
yourself for a fight, you're probably likely to hurt yourself
on top of someone hurt in you. But so it
was that was that form ever something? It ends up
in Shuri and Tamari. You know, was it ever something?
(21:20):
And it seems to be the case that it was,
and you know, will post the evidence for this at
some point. It's a way. There's a series of techniques
for holding onto your own weapon, predominantly a poll arm,
so a bow or a short spear. It's what to
(21:42):
do if someone grabs your weapon and tries to take
it away from you. And suddenly, when you go through it,
the techniques in order suddenly start to give you a
map of the territory of the different ways that someone's
going to grab, potentially grab and try and pull your
own weapon out of your hands, and you hang onto
(22:05):
it and how to hang onto it and once you
the main theme is to kind of twist, push and
bump the person off. You end up in a position
where you're then able to use the weapon. So the
main consideration is to get the person off the weapon
your own weapon, and then be in a position afterwards
(22:27):
in which to use the weapon. And it's quite remarkable,
and whoever put it together, it was absolutely brilliant, and
there's nothing more than that in the form, a quite
specific function brought together. Those moves suddenly make remarkable sense
and they fit perfectly, and you don't need to modify
(22:48):
what you do in the solo form. I'm not talking
about the you know, the kind of tussle bit or
the grapple bit, but the fundamental twists, turns, bumps, pulls,
pushes and strike in it are as as you do
in the kata, so you're working a specific set of skills.
(23:10):
Just as a one last point on that, it's so
interesting that that ended up in Shuri and Tamari, and
I wonder. It makes me wonder about the history of
that form, whether it was collected to bodyguarding the palace.
These are only suggestions. I've got no evidence with this bit,
(23:31):
and I'd never claim that. But isn't it fortunate that
a form which would the Shuri Palace guards used bow staffs,
they used pole arms. Isn't it fortunate that that form
ended up there. I'm not saying that the function was transmitted,
but almost as a ritual or a you know, an
(23:55):
emulation historically that that that specific set of techniques that
is known as passei cat ends up there. Yeah, that's
so it's a few points there in and out of
creative interpretation and and how it the difference in what
(24:16):
we do and how that's applied to passi pass is
often now interpreted is that this deadly deadly combative techniques
and throwing techniques and things like that. But it doesn't
explain the sequence. It doesn't explain why those particular techniques.
It doesn't explain what's absent, what's missing, and and and
(24:40):
so you know, you can go on ad nausea with this.
It's it's it just goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Well, it's interesting to note that the Passei keeps company
with with other cutter traditional cutter that that that find
themselves in company with it, and are also seemingly have
connections with the Royal Shuri Palace, so Chintai Jinto, sorry,
(25:07):
Pasai kushenku, those those kata i. You know, there's nothing
to suggest that there was a curriculum that said, as
there is in karate that says that you well, you
have to learn all of these, you know, you have
to learn you know, nine nine kata and or so
in the case of I think go Juru twelve kata
(25:32):
or shutter can karate twenty seven and as I always say,
grow and growing kata. There's no evidence to suggest that
these were all linked together. So if you're guarding one
part of the palace or you've got and I'm sure
there would be rotation like there is in any kind
(25:52):
of policing, assuming that that's what we're talking about here,
But you know, if you're the chaps on the front,
and it probably would be chaps you're on the front gate,
and you know, if you've got certain duties, that's to
let people in and out of the gate and deal
with anyone that could be problematic, which given that the
(26:12):
culture was was was was largely a credibly civilized are
you not going to get necessary but I'm not idealistic
about that. You're not going to get a surgeon football crowd,
but as we know from history that they often were
upsets and problems. But the guard at the gate has
got a different job from the guard inside the palace,
(26:34):
and the guard on the second floor will have a
different set of duties. And I think it was we
had a magnificent conversation Tom, you and I which in
which you made a you know, a startling observation which
I probably think I'd like to let you say because
I don't want to, you know, take your idea and
(26:57):
make it look as if I knew it all the one,
because I did not. And it was your idea about
the the use of a bow staff for six or
seven or eight foot stuff depending on who's country, the
long oak staff used in in In and all kinds
(27:18):
of mostly you're ok and Aaron and Japanese martial arts,
but used all over the world. But the what appears
to be a strike to the foot using that staff,
and I would invite you to share your insight into
into what's going on there.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Well, when we were looking at the looking at the
different environments which might the you know, the different as
part of the context for these forms would be used,
and we the idea was actually inspired. I need to
check the I think it's Bruce Clayton wrote a book
(28:00):
Secrets of showter Can or something like that. It's a
really really brilliant book. I'll double check and I'll put
a link to it with this film. The book, and
I suggest people really because he's got some brilliant, brilliant
ideas and thinking in it. But he describes quite carefully
the layout of shiry Palace and he talks about his
(28:23):
one of his his thesis is that some of the
kata were to be used in the palace under different circumstances.
And that's a brilliant and that inspired me when looking
at the antique forms and when you look at the kabudo,
and that's a huge side. You know, it just kind
of runs parallel with the history of karate, particularly bojutsu
(28:44):
use of the staff site and tom fa in Okinawa
that lots of the techniques are a bit questionable really
whether they be effective. So this technique where you're kind
of crossing the spear downward the bow excuse me to
hit the foot or the ankle, and it just looks
(29:05):
a bit you think, ye, how are you going to
land that you know you're going to need a tremendous
amount of space. I'm never really keen on it, but
it's always done in a single in a dojo, so
they're interpreting it based on face to face in the dojo.
And after reading Clayton's book and I hope it's Bruce Clayton,
(29:28):
and if I've got it wrong, I will correct that.
He talks about how they would have defended the king
and the king's exit route through the palace and it
would have gone up a flight of stairs and down
some passages, quite narrow passages and things like that, and
it's really got me thinking that perhaps some of these
techniques are meant to be done on two levels, or
(29:49):
perhaps holding people back or at the top of a
flight of stairs, so thrusting a bow downwards, the chances
of hitting someone's foot at distance are quite but what
a great movement to stop people coming up the stairs
and these kind of low level swinging the bow and
you can look at and Owen bowkata and see lots
(30:12):
of people doing these low swings followed by a low thrust.
What a great way to sweep someone's weapon out the
way coming up the stairs and thrust down into the face.
Wherever you hit with the end of a bow is
going to really hurt. But it's just an idea, and
that's creative interpretation as well. And when I said that
creative interpretation's got its place, it's kind of considering, after
(30:37):
you've got the function of the form, how it might
have may have been used. Because this is all speculation.
But if the bow jutsu, a lot of it was
for guarding the palace, there would have been a consideration
of the layout of the palace and what you would
have used. And is very interesting that some bow cat
(31:00):
that don't have particularly wild swinging movements, they're quite concise
and performed in quite a narrow space, and you think, well,
if you're indoors with that or in a passage and
things like that. And this brings me back round to
the goju shiho originally being for tom for again dealing
with a pole arm, possibly a spear, and it seems
(31:23):
to operate in a very very small space. It's being
able to use the ton for and maneuver and work
at very very close quarters without huge movements, without retreating away.
It's all done very much in very very close contact.
(31:43):
Would that make sense outside, No, because as soon as
you've got someone's got space to step back or move away,
it's going to be it's really problematic. But to use
the ton fora at distance and I it's one of
the kind of dueling things I just don't buy when
(32:04):
you see the sigh or the tom for used blocking
a bow or done on the kind of distance that
you would fight with a bow as opposed to the
tom fora where you should really be able to smell
their breath. That's the fighting range for the For the
tom for anything outside of that, you're going to be
in big trouble. But the gojyushiho is brutally effective when
(32:29):
you're in that tom for range and you stay in
it and the it kind of makes kind of makes
sense that that would be before used indoors or in
a narrow space, in a small contained space where there
isn't the opportunity for space to be creative that would
created that would be the that would give the use
(32:49):
of the tom for a real advantage. So yeah, there's
I'm kind of jumping about there. But to come back
to Nathan's original question, Yeah, is considering the the use
of the bow determined by the layout of the palace,
which is what the palace guards would have done, and
that may shed some light on some of the more
(33:10):
obscure techniques with the bow which are commonly performed across
the board in bojutsu styles in Okinawa, which I think
generally originate with probably less than half a dozen forms,
which have kind of branched out become lots and lots
of things. Andreas Quast has done some great research and
(33:30):
he's got a book out about it now which will
probably shed a lot more light on it.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head
with the limited number of forms, because there is that
idea out there which I don't agree with at all,
that the more forms one learns, the more experienced one
gets and the more variation there. And my point, my
(33:58):
view on that is the more of it you learn,
the more confuse your potential you can potentially come. Now,
I think if we looked at other branch, any branches
of policing, So let's just take policing in in the UK,
for example, Policing has its specialities and you know this
is a bit we've discussed this before, but it's still
(34:19):
appropriate in this context to discuss it again that they
you know, the police have various forms of method. You know,
there are officers that ride motorcycles, others that handle dogs,
others that drive vans, you know, others that drive the
motorway cars. You know, they're all police officers, but they've
(34:41):
all got specialized skills and used different tools. And one
wouldn't expect, you know, to work as a workaday police
officer to be using all of that. You know. Well,
you know this small I've got my dogs in my van,
you know, and and my motorcycle on the roof rack,
you know, just in case. You know, I've got all
(35:04):
of this stuff collected together because I'm a policeman. So
this is nonsense. Clearly, you know, there are different specialties
and I think that's what the kata and the various
skills represent. And the reason for our association and work
(35:24):
is that we've got to that to a I would say,
an unusual place where with many of the antique catter
previously described, we are able to be very specific about
the functions and we are not in a And you're
very open and honest and saying in your discussion about
(35:47):
the bow Tom that you know that you could be
involved in creative interpretation. You ye know, that's social your
genuineness and openness in research. But if we shift gear
for a minute and pop over to the nahar kata,
(36:08):
you know, the which would ultimately become goju karate and weichiarate,
then it's that's a great starting point, particularly with the
weichi santin kata, to show how yes, you can have
an incredibly clear set of applications. But and then moving
(36:34):
on systematically to the seisan and the sense said, do
you because these kata normally come in threes sanchin seysan
San say to you, you can see the master kata
the sanchin with two superb essays, I would call them
the seysan And the san said to you, that are
just developments of the of the theme that is so
(36:58):
brilliantly laid down in the Sandsun. And I'd make it
clear here we are not here talking about empty hand,
unarmed combat at all. Because to perform those kata, to
apply them in the way they were intended, one needs
to be equipped with a pair of si, the pronged
(37:23):
civil arrest tools that are well known to many martial artists.
For anyone that's the beginner. You need to look it up.
CI s A I.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
I'm just going to add I just add a couple
more things. I think that if the starting point with
kata is creative interpretation, meaning you kind of make up
what the moves mean and do do what you want
with it, I think that's the wrong time for creative interpretation.
I think that the time for creative interpretation is when
(37:58):
you work. You know, we've got through these cat and
we're not saying that we've got the the answers or
anything like that. But if someone takes time to research
the original function of a form, the time for creative
interpretation will be to what to do with it afterwards.
So is it possible to create a practice with it?
(38:20):
You know, it's difficult with the weight chi forms being siul.
What can we do with it? Well, we can't do
a lot. We can't go out and police with it.
So that I think, and it's the same with something
like passi, which is retaining your weapon. Then you've got
kusang ku, which is disarming a weapon, or goju shiho,
(38:41):
which is a ton for against a polar You know,
once you know those things, well, what do you do
with it, and I think that's where there's the potential
for creative interpretation of those skills. Can we do something
which perhaps is a bit engaging and we can enjoy
and experience those skills to assert and degree with another person.
(39:03):
Might come in the form of some sort of payers
practice or something like that, something quite simple. Obviously not
confusing it that you're becoming deadly with the weapon itself.
You're just engaging creatively with something that's been understood about
these sets of martial skills. And I think that's where
(39:27):
creative interpretation has it. You know, it has massive, massive potential.
But yeah, when it's used as sort of sidestep, not
really taking a good hard look at the material, I
think that's when it can become quite problematic.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
I think actually, just before we do sign off and
make one more comment too, that I think to really
stick to the point what we're discussing here, what we
have been discussing is the simple fact that these kata
and under analysis are not unarmed maneuvers against multiple opponents,
(40:13):
as laid down by the Japan Karate Association headed up
by Naki Yama sense He wrote that you know they
were blocking punching, striking and kicking, and that they were
you know, against multiple opponents. It's not something I can
agree with at all. As much as I respect naki
(40:33):
Yama sensei, the late naki Yama sensei uh and his work,
and you know, and the Japan Karatei Federation and the
former Japan Karate Association, they produced magnificent karatka, but these
kata are not fights against multiple opponents, and they are
(40:54):
not on armed self defense. And I confidently predicted this
a very early on, way before the advent of mixed
martial arts and cage fighting, etc. That they would never work,
you know, under those circumstances. And they do not because
the context is profoundly lacking. You know. They are not
(41:18):
fights against multiple opponents, and they are not unarmed ballistic
you know, punch up preparations for punch ups even against
a singular opponent. And I think probably with one exception,
which is a nigh hansion, they basically will involve weapons
of one type or another. And I think that's just
(41:40):
I think my final point in this cast.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
So where does that leave the millions of karate practitioners
who thought they were practicing unarmed self defense and now
find themselves practicing kata that are armed forms of combat.
Where does that leave them? Does it leave them with
re enacting sixteenth seventeenth century life in China?
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Well, I think that would be up to well, I
think that's up to what you know. It's it's not
we're not dictating how any of this should then be used.
We're just saying, this is what we found. You can
do with it what you want. And I think that
if you take so. I mean when Nathan discovered that
(42:30):
the way she Sanchin was signed, the disappointment in the
group was just people. People left, They walked out, people
were so up. It's not like we go, well, it's
say this is brilliant, My god, the dis I remember
my own my own disappointment. I had a phone call
(42:52):
from a very close friend who phone me and he said,
you're not going to believe this. Nathan has said that
the wait that san Chin is sigh and my first
reaction was like, oh god, what what now? And but
and so it's not been. It's not been this kind
(43:12):
of tremendous, joyous ride where we've got what we wanted
or this is we're making it something like this is
what we really fancy it to be or something like that.
It's accepting whatever it is, and it's it's not it's
not been you know, it's not been particularly fun in
(43:34):
some parts of it. It's it's absolutely fascinating now that
knowing what it is, people can then do what they
want with it. If they want to do a re
enactment with Sanchin Saysan and Sun said, do you great
be my guest. If people want to still continue to
interpret it as an armed combat cap fine and carry on.
But I think we talked about this before, holding material
(43:56):
to a particular standard holding for you and the things
that the statements that we make about catter, the statements
that we how we approach karate and form based martial
arts and things like that. You know, we're just putting
our ten cents worth out there. The last thing I'll
just and I promise this would be absolutely the last
(44:17):
thing I say, is if we were around during the
time that the Rosetta Stone was dug up or discovered
and we didn't know what it meant and we weren't
able to translate it, I think I think most people
would agree that it would be a pretty bad idea
(44:38):
to just creatively interpret what was in front of you
and make up a meaning and to say, well, you
can this is what I want it to be, or
this is what I would like it to be. I
think the general consensus would be that everyone would be
striving to really understood what was written down on that
(45:01):
on that.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
This is this is the this is the Egyptians. Yeah,
this is the stone with the Egyptian hieroglyphs and the.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah, we'll put a picture to Greek. Right, Well, we'll
put a link to it. And it's a fascinating it's
worth the time just to read it and to think
for a moment whether if you were there in that,
in that moment of discovery, would you go, I can't
read it, So I'm just going to make it up.
And it's a kind of side stepping the actual work involved,
(45:27):
and what we're encouraging people is to go, hang on,
I'm going to take a bit more time with this
and see if there is something of value here be
you know. And and so it's a kind of crude
example of creative interpretation. And I don't mean that to
to criticize or be rude about other people and other
(45:53):
karatea or other karate teachers or anything like that, because
I think people can do whatever they want. But it's
it's it's having that mindset. That's where we're coming from.
We've got these kata, we're not looking at them and
just saying, well, this is what we're really really striving to,
really understand what the functions of these forms were originally
(46:18):
intended for the context reuse, and we're putting it all
to the test and seeing what we can do with
it all. That's where we're really going with all of that.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah, and that's all the time we have left. Gents,
Thanks once again for this very insightful conversation and we'll
see you next time on Great Karate Myths.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Thank you very much, gentlemen, Thank you, thank.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
You for joining us on this enlightening journey through the
myths and legends of karate. If you've enjoyed our podcast,
don't forget to subscribe and share it with fellow martial
arts enthusiasts. If you want to keep the Dojo lights on,
considers importing us through buying me a coffee or Patreon.
Your contribution helps us bring you more episodes. Remember, your
(47:06):
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