May 15, 2024 • 55 mins
The phrase "function dictates form" is a variation of the design principle "form follows function." This principle of architectural design emphasises that the way something looks should be determined by its use rather than aesthetic considerations. In a broader sense, "function dictates form" means that the design of an object or system should be based upon its intended function or purpose. For example, the thin flap of your eyelid is designed to snap down quickly to clear away dust particles and then slide back up almost instantaneously to allow you to see again, illustrating how its structure is directly related to its function. This concept can be applied to various fields, from architecture to biology, indicating that the form of something is optimised for the function it is supposed to perform. It's a principle that encourages efficiency and practicality in design. In this episode we discuss how this principle was used to determine the most plausible, functional essence of karate kata. Blog: Kodoryu Karate and Kobudo
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Great Karaatei Myths Debunking the Legends, a podcast
that chops through the forest of martial arts folklore to
reveal the true essence of karate. Join us your hosts,
Nier Nathan and Tom As we take you on a
journey through the dojo of Doubt, where we question the
tall tales and test the traditions that have shaped karati
as we know it, from the mystical to the misunderstood.
(00:28):
We break down the myths and.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Can build up the facts.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
But don't worry, debunking doesn't mean disrespecting the art. We'll
be celebrating the rich history of karate while setting the
record straight. Whether you're caeesared black belt, a novice starting
the karaiti bath, or just a curious listener, beare to
have your preconceptions shattered and your understanding of karate deepened.
So tie up your belts, bow in, and let's get
(00:52):
ready to rumble with truth. Welcome. The title for today's
show is Function Dictates Form. Nathan. In nineteen ninety four,
you published zenshal in Karate The Complete Philosophy, Practice and History,
(01:16):
where you use this aphorism to describe the observations that
led you to discover the essence of karate kata. Could
you describe how that thought process has led to what
the Classical Karate Association is doing now?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Well, you use a fancy term, it's our leaked motif.
It's it's it's it's how we started out. Really, so
we had this amazing We had kato, you know, solo choreographs,
sequences of movement that were said to contain the essence
(01:55):
of karate. Funicosei Jiten, the found of Chattakan Karate and
one of the biggest styles in the world, had a
lot to say about kata and yeah, to abbreviate it,
he said, it was basically the essence of karate ya
(02:15):
could be found in the in the kata, and for him,
h karate was the kata again and repeat, solo choreograph
sequences of movements. So when we looked at this as collectively,
because you know, we we've been a group of twenty
(02:39):
five thirty years. We twenty five years, we we started
with the kata, we took what the funicos Egitian sense
they said at face value and saw a disconnect between
these solo traditional solo choreograph sequences and and for instance
(03:01):
free sparring. The two didn't seem connected at all, so
we decided to concentrate on the kata. Oh what they meant?
What was the purpose of these enigmatic sequences?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Tom, what are your thoughts on function to taste form?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, yeah, you've got different different martial arts, different functions,
different sets of skills that have different context applications that
were going on and being used, and at some point
they in China became put together in forms that you
(03:42):
know that ultimately became the kata that were inherited in
Okinawa and Japan. And what seems to have been lost
in the transmission is the function of the forms, and
it's all then subsequently been reinterpreted or as unarmed self defense.
(04:03):
And the main body of work that Nathan pioneered is
the it's to seek the original functions of these forms,
what were they originally, what were they originally for? And
what we found, well Nathan started and the group has
found is that there are lots and lots of different things,
(04:25):
predominantly weapons based. And it led to the understanding that
you can really only have a kata for a very
limited purpose or a limited function. You can't have something
very very abstract that leads to a catter. So you
can't say unarmed self defense and then create a catter
(04:48):
out of it. It's just too big a problem to
solve in a CATA. And the other part of that
is that a kata doesn't really serve any usefulness in
terms of preparing for an un self defense. So, but
it is very very useful in it's in the concentrated
(05:12):
functions that were the original purpose of these forms. So,
for example, sanchin as you find it in weight your
EU originally being a SI catters. The purpose of it
is very very clear and simple. It's to develop the
use and skill of using the SI a pair of sigh.
(05:38):
So that involves flipping, gripping the angles that you would
make contact with, producing leverage, trapping, striking. All those basic
ingredients to use a pair of SI are contained within
that form. Now, if you that might still sound a
(05:59):
bit abstract. So the other part of this is that
there's a context for the function as well. It's not
just it's using sigh. It's not well, we take a
pair of sigh onto the battlefield, down to the or
anything like that. It's civil arrest is the context that
(06:20):
is where this type of usage of the si takes place.
And how do we know that, Well, you're not using
the sire to strike the eyes, you're not stabbing someone
in the eyes or throat with it. The structure of
the form, the cata and the layer of the techniques
(06:43):
are very particular in the where you're delivering the strikes,
where you're delivering pressure, where you're maneuvering. And so what's
absent in the form is just as important as what's
in there, and that's an important part of approaching the
(07:03):
original function of a form as well, to see what's
not there, which Nathan's written about and you know it's
so I'm just going to jump back to if you're
interpreting kata as on armed self defense, you've got to
ask the question, where's the ground grappling, where's the how
(07:24):
do you deal with multiple apparent what happens? If it
doesn't really answer any of those questions of being randomly
assaulted or anything like that, It's just there's no head butting,
there's no eye gouging, there's no biting, there's none of
that stuff in there. And so you can kind of
by process of elimination, throw out some of these ideas
(07:50):
which have been lumped onto forms, and work your way
back to the original functions, which is what we do
in the group now and have constant traded on. And
so when you get to these original functions, what you
find is why the form exists in the way that
(08:11):
it does. So, if you really want to understand the
san chin for example, and again I'll just reiterate as
found in weight you re, you you've kind of we've
worked out that it's a for the use of a
pair of sire training those fundamental skills and mechanisms for
manipulating the sire and using them in a similar sque context.
(08:36):
And there's a whole body of evidence for that. But
when you start working with that and exploring it, you
realize that the weight ye sand chin couldn't be any
other way. It really is a very very refined form
borne out of that function. There's no there's and it
(08:59):
can't be for anything else in a very useful way.
So as soon as you start saying, well I can
use that for unarmed combat, for example, it's got no
usage for it whatsoever. It just doesn't work. It doesn't
pull as a Nathan expression double duty. And so again
(09:24):
you can eliminate that, and you can see that these
functions became these forms, and that idea of creating a
cataor or a form or an embodied manual of particular
martial skills, particular sets of skills and functions to be
(09:45):
to train people to do jobs, to train people in
particular sets of skills for their craft, their trade, a
policeman and soldier, a bodyguard, a palace guard, and you've
got the manuals for it. You know that you go
and do this training, that you've got that role, then
(10:06):
it doesn't have this kind of oh well, I'm an
expert in policing, so therefore I can become a cage
fighter or something like that. And so that's some of
the ingredients of how function leads led to these forms.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
And yeah, well, just just to jump in here, I
think Tom's hit the proverbial nail squarely on the head.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
But with regard to well, I agree with everything that
he said, but then I suppose I would, but he
he what he's described. An important part of what he's
described is how how could you order ballistic fighting combat
in a sequence. I'll give it an example for you know,
(10:59):
for the viewers and listeners to to consider, to imagine, imagine,
you know, taking shadow boxing or you know, sort of
freestyle boxing and thinking might be we've got jabs, uppercuts, hooks, crosses,
you know, body shots. Yeah, right, okay, off you go,
people put that into a form. We could take argument's sake,
(11:25):
we could take ten people and say, right, off, you go,
put those techniques into a form, and you'd come up
with ten different forms from ten different from ten people,
and then we'd have the task of deciding who's correct,
which one would be authentic. You know. So here we go, Well,
(11:46):
so one person's got to you know, starts with opens
with a jab and and and then follows with a cross,
and it says, well, I've done that because you know
in boxing that works. We lead with a jab and
then try and sledgehammer the opponent, you know, with a
cross or and the other person is, well, no, I
like body shot. I like to get in close, you know,
I like to do a Mike Tyson and they hit
(12:09):
the ribs with a you know, so it's called a
I was taught I had a very good boxing coach
a hook to the ribs and then using the same
hand that you know, hook again to the head. So
you know, the second person might start their version of
a form or a catter, you know, with their predilection
(12:31):
or their interest in the hook. So they might open
their their creation with with hooks and and concentrate on hooks.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
A third person, you know, might decide, well, you know,
I like the big punch first. You know, I'm gonna
you know, I don't really care for jabs, so they
don't carry enough power. I want to hit hard. And
so it would go on through the ten people and
you'd end up with a lot of and the reality
is you couldn't successfully contain, which is why boxing doesn't
(13:03):
have kata. You couldn't. And not only boxing, but you
know kickboxing or cage fighting or you know ultimate fight
challenge competitions that they don't have kata for a very
good reason. You can't contain all of the variations and nuances.
It's funny. I mean, I wouldn't want to contest this
next point with anyone. But you know, over the years,
(13:28):
as a group, we looked at you know, we looked
at sports in general. I'm not suggesting creatives a sport
by the way. But we looked at tennis and cricket
and a number of different sports and you know, again
I don't want to I wouldn't want to contest this,
but we found that they're basically going to be around.
(13:49):
I don't want to make a theme of this about
twenty one movements. Also twenty odd movements that are going
to be repeated and are going to form the core
or the nuclear of any particular sport. And those things
aren't will inevitably be limited by by the human anatomy
(14:11):
and its physiology. So otherwise you've got two arms and
two legs and you know, a torso you know, in
a head and that's it, you know, so you one
inevitably will be limited and by that and you can't
put So when I would say ballistic movement, I mean
punching and kicking and striking. I do not mean grappling.
(14:34):
But interestingly, what I'm going to say now we contested
judo does have kata, but they're not they're not solo,
they're not for individuals. Their pairs work. So really, you know,
if we looked at and Tom did hit on the
fact that those forms originally that the catter that we
(14:56):
find in what became known as viewed as Japanese karate.
They did have their origins in China, and they were
transmitted through via the Riku Islands Chief Island Okinawa, and
they went to Japan as as late as nineteen twenty
(15:20):
one and then out to the rest of the world.
But those forms, as Tom correctly identified, were originated in China.
And he's again he's hit the nail on the head
by say, identifying those a lot of those original forms,
and Tom referred to the weights you do, which is
(15:41):
which are one of I would say, just three major
O Canaan karate styles, which interestingly actually went to Japan first,
But anyway, that's a moot point. He correctly identified those
forms as being weapons based, and and he referred to
(16:02):
the sanchin formed that all the three conflicts form which
which is the was said to be the beginning and
the end of karate by some teachers.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I think.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Words along those lines were used by by the founder
of which you do karatechi and continued by his his
son Kenni Waichi. And I think the side the three
pronged civil arrest tool, as Tom correctly says, it was
(16:42):
at the heart of of those forms, which again were
originated in China, then they're not they're not you know,
they're not Japanese and they originated in in China. So
the function dictating the form is that, you know, the
(17:03):
form is created to support the training, to create a
solo training regime for individuals or groups in a group activity.
It's almost a quasi militaristic process or practice. But these forms,
the important thing is they can be done solo alone,
(17:26):
which means, you know, you've got to take a takeaway practice.
I think you know, in another cast, or maybe later
in this one, we'll we'll come to how how these
forms came to be practiced without the weapons.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I just got to add something to that, Nathan as well.
The the you know this the question of whether cat
are even useful in the first place. And you know,
there's a very strong case for catepying extremely useful drills, exercises, practices,
(18:09):
whatever you want to define them as for weapons. So
what's the argument for that, Well, give someone a pair
of sight, show them some side techniques, and try to
get them to in any way apply them or have
the They won't have the strength, they won't have the coordination,
(18:29):
and but it's something that can be very rapidly acquired.
So you need the hand strength, you need the dexterity,
you need to be able to coordinate both arms to
work symmetrically and asymmetrically, and you know, independently, you know,
and produce different types of force with the limbs as well.
So if one arm is pinning, say, for example, is
(18:51):
using a trap, the other one is striking with the pommel.
So there's coordinated skills that require a mental process in
the beginning. And you know you can do that, you know,
with lots and lots of little exercises or drills. But
(19:12):
the kata is a very very well thought out and
well developed way of creating those core skills. The sandshin
is I'm just talking about here. So the sanshin is
is a brilliant drill to develop the strength of the hands,
to create be able to create leverage, the dexterity, to
(19:37):
flip the side to an open and closed position, to
coordinate the arms independently, which is the necessary foundations to
then be able to use the skills taught in the
seysan and the san serlio, which are the two forms
that follow the sanshin traditionally in which you and broadly
(20:02):
Nahte and so it serves it is very very useful.
It's a very very useful process and a very very
useful practice, and it's very the deeper we go into this,
which we will over time hopefully and presenting all the
evidence that we have will show just how carefully thought
(20:26):
out this has been. I'll just give some very quick examples,
So the opening of the weight Chie sanchin where the
arms pressed down to the side, come up to the
hips and fists and then thrust forward in a double
spear hand just for it's a way of it's a
mechanism to draw the SI. That's it. It's drawing the weapon.
(20:50):
It's being able to draw the tool without looking at it.
And you can refer to the Coda Yu YouTube video
of weight Chie Sanchin with the SI to have a
look at that.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
And it's a very useful mechanism being able to draw
your weapon without looking at it, to know where the
weapons are or the tools rather and then to bring
them into usage, particularly if you're already communicating with someone,
you're confronted with someone.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
So there's a tremendous nuance and tremendous thought that's gone
into putting these forms together. When you get to the
point where and the function was lost, it didn't come over,
it didn't make it to Wakinawa, and it's subsequentely reinterpreted
as unarmed combat, I would argue that it's not useful
(21:37):
at all. It's not a useful process to practice an
open handed sanchin for unarmed combat, because the way of
organizing the body and the structure of it is geared
towards creating leverage with the size and creating pressure at
close quarter with a with tools, not an unarmed exchange
(22:01):
a random unarmored exchange that can very quickly go to
the floor, or you know, and all the other things
that you know we've talked about ad nauseum. So so
answering that question, yes, the functions led to all, but
is a catter useful in the first place, I would
argue only with the original function very much.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yes, Yeah, I think that's a great answer. I think
you I'd like to raise this point now. This is
a long way away from for instance, when I when
I remember seeing the film starring Sean Connery giving my
age away here Goldfinger James Bond film and they had
(22:47):
the I've forgotten the name of the villain, it doesn't matter.
He had his henchman was called odd Job who had
a bowler hat with a steel rim and he threw it,
you know, and it kind of had the whole thing
had a martial art flavor. And the Bond movies were
(23:08):
known for, you know, bondle you had the karate chop
and you know what you're discussing. What we're discussing here
together is a long shot, a long far cry from
you know, from the general image of karate as punching
and kicking and and you know, an art of armed
(23:28):
self defense. So our discussion so far was you know,
miles away from from that. And I think it might
be worth going into how how we got how that,
how that occurred, because of course, not every karate, because
karate is divided into styles, and it was like counties
(23:51):
in a country or states in a country, and it's
divided into styles, and the different styles have different at
I think you're quite right, Tom, to identify the sanchin
kata is utterly central. But some styles, of course don't
practice sanchin. You know. I think it's important to note
(24:14):
that a lot of the so called styles have sets
of kata which is actually quite recent in a recently
invented and I think, without straying too far from the topic,
we need to just quickly look at a fundamental division
(24:35):
in karate to clear up why the different styles have
different kata. In the main, we can look at two
significant contributors to the creation of karate. One would be
the figure of Punicossi Jitchin, who died in nineteen fifties seven,
(25:00):
I think yes. And the other one would be Maggie Chojan,
the creator of go Juru karate, who died in nineteen
fifty three. So you know, I'm the you know this.
This is not a long time ago. It depends on
your point of view, but or on your index point.
But these are not ancient stars. In fact, you know,
(25:24):
in my own studies, I came to the conclusion that
Maaggie Chojan sensely had massive significant input, if not total,
was not totally responsible for the cata that became that
were used in the style of Gojo. It's in a
(25:47):
similar way Punkosi sensei, the founder of Shotokan karate. It
was only the second generation to pass on the penan
or the hyen as. Then in gozar A kata which
were only created in nineteen hundred and eight by one
of Pinkosi e Sensis teachers, he Tosu Sensei, So these
(26:11):
are relatively recently created kata. Now, when we go back
to the sanshin kata of the of the weight Huru,
one of these may not cannowned styles that Tom has
been highlighting in and explaining very accurately that kata is
the one of the oldest of the kata and one
(26:36):
of the potentially one of the most if not the
most significant Kararati cata again with its origins and roots
in China as a as a well, we've debated in
the past whether these are whether we should call them
weapons or tools. They're not for warfare, the sire not
for warfare, but they are as as Tom said, they
(26:58):
are tools that civil arras. They're not battlefield tools. But
the Wechi Sanchin is most like in our view, the
the original version which Maaggie Chojan sensei, the founder of
Go remodeled for for for the creation of his his
(27:21):
his his art goate and and in that case we
are not any longer really seeing that the the function
is dictating the form in the Weiti version, we can
see that quite clearly, and and and and and can
demonstrate why that form is in the order and sequence
(27:44):
the way it is that cannot be done so easily
with Maggie Chojan senses variation. We know historically that Maaggie
Chojan Senses Sanchin Kata came from the same source as
Cambin Weichi, the founder of weight you Do Kata came
from and we'll discussed that source in the future, but
(28:10):
you know, we're aware that they came from the same origin.
But Maggie Trojan sense he ah took out he closed
the fist that didn't use the open hands. Sanchez divide
into three sections, and in section one, the weighty version
has keeps the hands open, whereas the go through version
(28:33):
has turned the open hand into a clenched fist. This
is hugely significant because the open hand the Weichi version
doesn't alter or change the function, but when you get
to closing the fist, then you end up with something
(28:56):
that's well without being critical, go to do sanction is
incredibly pop It is probably you know, it's practiced all
over the world, but you know, by several million people.
But it's the way she sanction is less common. But
it is notwithstanding that the prototype, and it is the
(29:18):
a great source for being able to to to be
able to say function dictates form. If karata hits a
point of which the function the form doesn't, this doesn't
reveal the function, then the kara, as Tom alluded to,
(29:41):
becomes an abstract and you can't you know, and then
anything can be anything, which is indeed what's been happening
in karate that you know, it's all down to personal interpretation,
you know, and and and you know you if you
dare to say that it's actually, for prinstance, stick with
(30:03):
the way she sanction, if you dare to say that
it's actually got a clear function, then one can be
or we can be seen as zealots somehow you know
we've got the truth, and so on. But it's a
great exemplar of how function does indeed dictate form.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I recall when Nathan published The Great Karate Myth, Unraveling
the Mystery of Karate back here in two thousand and six.
It was extremely controversial and there was so much pushback
from mainstream karate styles, with many of them saying, well,
(30:45):
why would you want a kata for weapons.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
There were ways of learning to do things. So it's
not that a kata is necessarily a better idea than
anything else, or that it's somehow is special, because you know,
it's all you know, it's got special qualities that can't
be done in any other way. It's not true. You could,
(31:11):
as I said, you could take a pair of zie
and you could do lots of different drills, and there
are other ways, you know, but it's been conveniently put
together in the same way that a college education is
put together or a university education is. Having a ordered
syllabus or a kind of direction with your learning or
(31:34):
development is a youthful process, and that's the same with
learning tools how to use tools. You're not going to
be given a pair of sig and go right, just
do whatever you want with them. It's not a useful
way of developing someone that's going to be efficient with
that particular tool or in those particular types of skill
(31:55):
in the top the context WHI in which they're used,
and so the categorism something particularly special, but it's a
very very it's an embodied manual, it's a it's a
physical man they're physical manuals. So it's it's a body
of knowledge that's been collated together to develop a particular
(32:16):
to develop the ability in a particular function. When, as
Nathan said, that's that function is lost and then it's reinterpreted.
That's how you end up with styles, because if you're
learning how to use a tool, you're learning how to
use it, you're learning a skill for a trade, a
craft or job or whatever. You don't go, well, you know,
(32:40):
it's not like styles of tennis. You'd play tennis, so
you know, it's like, well, you know there's a gassy
ree and you know Henman rue and all the rest
of it. I'm sure there are things that make that
unique to that individual, but it's not styles that there's
a particular method and there's a function on a way
(33:00):
to use a racket. It's the same with the sigh.
There'll be some nuances because of bodies and things like that,
but fundamentally you need to be able to grip, flip,
create leverage, and strike with those with that tool. That's
the job. You're not allowed to gouge someone's eye out.
You're a policeman. You can't stab someone in the throat.
(33:21):
You're a policeman. You've got to disarm someone without cause
it inflicting too much damage. You're a policeman. So the
context is the territory which the skills are applied in,
and so that's your function. That's how you arrive at
the form and the manuals have been formed and put together.
(33:42):
Those manuals exist in European martial art, sure, but they're
just done differently and perhaps not in the way that
kind of happened in China, this very concentrated way of
formalizing different martial skills and the use of tools and
things like that. When you interpreted, interpret the kata any
(34:08):
way that you want and make it anything you want,
that's how you end up with styles because it becomes well,
he thinks this, and he thinks or they think that
this kata is better this or this collection of kata
is superior. When you have this many and this person thing, well,
that doesn't mean anything because it doesn't really speak to
the functions of the forms.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
It's just.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
And the individual that put together the kind of spoofy, well,
I'm going to do a kata with an ak forty seven,
you know, Okay, great, get that's what you can do
still yet to see a presentation of what a kata
was originally for. And the challenge that I would put
out to anyone that thinks that kata are unarmed combat
(34:57):
or to be freely into interpreted as anyone sees pleases,
is create one. And I wrote about this before, very briefly,
create a kata. It's not that easy. Create a kata
that then you can then freely interpret, or that anyone
can freely interpret. It's not easy. And the forms that
(35:22):
were created later without functions tend to be based on
older forms that did have functions. So Ittosu wasn't starting
from scratch, basing his penan forms or hear in forms
on combative experience. He was using excuse me, older material
(35:44):
which did have functions. Kusang ku has a function, sanchin
has a function, say san has a function. These are
the older what we would describe as the antique forms
inherited from China. They came without the functions, but they
were put together. They were formalized from function within a
(36:07):
rory with a territory which was the context to be
applied within a within a context. Try and do it
from scratch, put one together. It's really hard, and you
will never ever quite make the cup if you say
it's unarmed combat, because you will be missing vast amounts
(36:29):
of material. You're going to have to consider what's the
range you're starting in. You're going to have to consider
right punching, elbows, knees, head butts, biting and gouging, grappling,
And then you've got the problem of you know, I
mean not all grappling is conducive to concealed weapons. So
(36:55):
are you are you working from the approach that you're
being attacked randomly, or are you working it from the
approach that you're starting facing someone knowing that you're in
a situation. You know, you go on with this, but
ever and ever and ever, and it's tedious because it's
so complex, and it highlights that formalizing unarmed combat in
(37:17):
a kata is just not a useful thing to do.
It's not a useful practice to do that unless you
would distill it right down to something very very very simple,
a very simple idea. They won't go into it now,
but which is what essentially gets you through, which is
(37:38):
a very very simple idea to work at a distance
and timing. Fundamentally, that was the idea, and he created
the tenno Kata and very clearly outlined the application process
of what it's for. And I'm not saying it's for
(38:00):
a fight or anything like that, but you can distill
it down and do it very simply like that, or
you end up in this kind of abstract mess that
never that never ends. And you know, some of the
questions that come up, are are all cutter one on
one combat then? Or are you fighting multiples? Are all
(38:22):
cutter unarmed?
Speaker 3 (38:24):
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Why can you mix and match?
Speaker 3 (38:27):
So?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Can I mix and match nihanji with goju shih and
sam sail? You can I cherry pick what I want?
And if so, why is that the case? Why is
that okay? Why not have all those cutters one long,
never ending for Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
I might to jump in here and say, well, at
least a very important point that experienced kardatka or curate
practitioners are very well aware of that you you have
the formalized practice the kata, these sequences which which which
(39:06):
I have nothing to do with the free sparring. So
when it comes to the idea of fighting or how
you might one might fight by punching and kicking and blocking,
it the creating practitioners, the cretic have a real difficulty
in in in in in using the kata in a
(39:27):
freestyle format. In fact, it's impossible, which which means that
within a given style basically are three things going on.
There's the formal kata, the handed down kata. Then there's
a reduction of that into into so called basics, which
(39:47):
are referred to as kiroon the basic training, which is
repetition of individual parts might be punch, punches or blocks
or strikes or whatever. And so you have the kata
which which are the solo choreograph sequences. Then you have
the sort of basics the keyhorn the training. And then
(40:08):
you have a third component, a third layer to the karate,
do you commute. Commute means meeting hands or sparring as
most people understand it, which doesn't resemble really hugely. The
other two components doesn't particularly resemble the cat So what
are formal blocks end up being sort of light slaps
(40:28):
and parries, you know, generally with the hand open, and
they really have don't bear a lot of they're not
directly connected to the formal kata. So you end up
with three components in the one style which don't blend
together seamlessly. In fact, they don't blend together at all.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
There's a karate combat is a great example of that.
Looking at some of the I mean the incredible athletes,
non insight, no sand chin in sight anywhere, just very
very skilled fighters doing what they you know, doing, applying
all of those skills in the way that they need
(41:10):
to be for full contact ring fighting. And and so
you know, the question is, well, were the cat are
ever useful? Were they ever really for something? Or they
were they a terrible idea in the first place. And
the answers, no, they were for something very very different
that and they've become something else. And I think that
(41:32):
the original functions of these forms actually will enriches karate
as a subject and almost liberates, you know, a lot
of possibilities for its future in that you don't have
to try to get you unarmed self defense or whatever
(41:54):
from antique forms which don't have the content. They don't
have the material you need to successfully survive an altercation
or being assorted in the streets. So that they don't
have that material, they have something else which is very
rich in history, and they're older martial skills and you
can if you were intent on surviving an altercation or
(42:18):
becoming a good full contact fighter or something, you can
kind of put that stuff aside and say, well, that's
not what I'm doing, and we can kind of sort
it all out a little bit almost, and say, well,
this is these antique forms were SI and tom FA
and you know, different weapons and things like that, and
(42:39):
then we've got what karate became, and we've all got
the tremendous skills in the full contact fighting, and we
don't need to mix them up and mash it all
together and pretend that it's all the same stuff because
it's it's not. And knowing that we can move forward.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
And that's what we're trying to do with the Kido
Ru Classical Karate Association. We're trying to classify what karate
kata was, what it became, and what it is today,
and in doing so we satisfy the catacritics.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah, I think the catacritics out there, you know, particularly
from the MMA end of things, I think they're right.
You know, why would you practice forms for full contact?
I think they're absolutely right. I've got no disagreement whatsoever
with what they're saying. Because that's not what they were for.
(43:33):
You know, in the same way that you know a rifle,
drill or anything like that has got no place in
the cage. Using some civil arrest tools from late being
early Qing dynasty China, it's got no those techniques, those
skills have got no place in the cage or for
(43:53):
modern day you know, the violence that occurs today. If
we all started policing with SIE again and then well,
you know, it might be it might have a case,
but that is not But we can we can you know,
record record those historical martial arts, and some people will
(44:18):
be very interested in those, and that's great. You know
that there's there's a place for there's a place for
the antique forms and their original functions in the modern
martial arts, but certainly not confusing them with or pretending
that they have some place in MM. A MMA really
(44:39):
is proves what works and what doesn't work to it.
And you know the randomness of violence, and you know
what takes place now with people being assorted and stabbed
and things like that, it's almost dangerous to say that
you could somehow prepare for that with a with an
antique form design for developing the ability to use and
(45:02):
manipulate a pair of sye. Just one more point to
just quickly throw in is about holding holding the material
to a standard as well, And it's another way of
approaching that, does you know, does it meet the standard?
Does it meet the critter? If you're saying a cat
or is something, are you able to critically look at
(45:26):
that and also back up what you're saying as well?
So you know, weight she sanchi is such a great
example because it's it looks quite peculiarly, it's quite obscure
when it's performed without the tools, as a lot of
these forms are. And so if you're saying that it's
preparation for unarmed and armed fighting or violent altercation, are
(45:50):
you holding are you holding that statement to a standard
of you know, have you got the evidence? Are you
able to provide evidence? And you able to really meet
the criticisms that are going to come flying your way.
And it's happened a lot with lots of different martial arts,
you know, lots of form based martial arts have not
(46:11):
coped very well with the criticisms. But instead of holding
their own materials to certain standards and going well, okay,
I'm seeing this, that this is not working in a
fight that I'm not seeing a lot of that at
the moment. Maybe I'm just not seen the white people.
(46:34):
I don't know. But holding the material to the standard
and really and that's been a lot of the process
within our group is to really really critically look at
this and every time something's brought to the table, the
group gets to critique it. The group gets to go, well,
(46:55):
I don't agree with that, or to bring in all
the different experience within the group and all the different
knowledge accumulated to really hold the CATA to a high standard.
So it's not simply a case of the SI kind
of fits or anything like that. It exactly fits. And
as it's unfolded, it's not what we are doing a
(47:18):
CATA with the Sieyes is that it's not simply doing
a CATA that we think was SI. There's a body
of evidence which creates this standard that we to present
and say, yeah, this is SI we're not coming from
(47:40):
and go, well, we kind of think it is and
it kind of fits and it kind of might work
like that. No, it's absolutely that, And we'll go through
step by step every all the details and all the
information over time, but yes, instead of just ducking away
from where I you know, yeah, it doesn't really work
for a fire, but I'm going to kind of pretend
(48:01):
it does, and I'm going to keep doing anyway. It's
asking the question, what is this really for? Why am
I really doing this? Is it worth my time? Was
it a good idea in the first place? And so on?
Speaker 1 (48:12):
And let's briefly mention the UFC the Ultimate Fighting Championship, Now,
that was the single largest critic of kata and form
based martial arts.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yeah, I mean form based martial arts got annihilated. No
one's gone in and gone. I'm really glad I was
doing my handshet in preparation for my cage fight, because
you know, they got I mean, wing chun got annihilated. Karate,
the early guys got annihilated. You had later fighters like
(48:48):
Ta Machida and you know that were highly skilled in
full contact sparring. And so there's a different area of
karate that became very well applied in MMA, but not
the form based stuff and the form based martial arts.
We haven't seen lots of the kung fu system, the
(49:10):
form based kung fu system, so we're not seeing five
ancestor fists dominating one or Pride or you know, or UFC.
We're not seeing the white crane guys going in and
or the whooping crane guys, or the where are the
mantis people? Where are the you know, all your internal
(49:31):
martial arts, form based martial arts like tai chi, where
are they in mma? They've got annihilated. And so either
it might be that they were unlucky on the day
shore or maybe that the material that they're using to
prepare themselves for that context isn't the right material. And
(49:52):
if it's not the right material, was it originally for
something else? And I would argue.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Yes, in nineteen in the nineteen Night, I predicted I'm
not a prophet or something, but I did predict that
the developed that sparring and freestyle fighting would develop ultimately
into into what it did, into the ultimate fight challenge
and the and the cage fighting and the Pride and
(50:21):
the rest of it. As you mentioned, I confidently predicted that.
But then I'd already spent a lifetime and you know,
been involved in this.
Speaker 5 (50:31):
It's it's, it's it's it's.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
Been a lifetime, a lifetime's work. But effectively the it's
not really about me being able to predict it. But
I think that who can imagine getting in the sort
of not needs sanchin stance and you know, with the
with the open hands and getting in a ring with
(50:53):
somebody you know, and trying to use sanchin. Now, apologists
for it quite often fall back on and which is
partly what sanchin has been used for or interpreted as
that they fall back on the the idea that it's
body conditioning. So I can't put words in them, but
(51:15):
over the years I've come across their arguments, and their
arguments are that it's about conditioning. Then there's a physical conditioning,
So there's something that that gets used in gojoate and
what you do and and many other styles called schime testing,
in which you know, the idea is that you armor
the body and you know, you know how to tense
(51:38):
the muscles in the right places and in the right way.
It's very theoretical, but sort of blows are sort of
they look like sound. Blows are delivered to the to
the to the to the usually to the trunk and
the shoulders, and there's sort of fierce slaps on the shoulder.
I'm not I'm not knocking decrying this. If people choose
(51:58):
to practice that will follow it or believe that's it,
that's that's up to them. When faced with the evidence
that we're dwelling on sanchin but that it's a psyde catter,
lots of people that have pursued that, I don't want
to know. That's not not no, no, no, it's armoring,
it's body conditioning. It's and as we've discussed many many
(52:18):
times over over the years, if you want to condition
the body, and there are very good Western ext weightlifting,
you know, gymnastics, weightlifting, particularly isometrics, all kinds of things,
and we can see that there's almost a It started
in China, so let's let's let's include China, Okanaara and
(52:39):
Japan and then on into the West. This idea that
sanchin is about body conditioning, and that's because they've had
to give it a function. Why are we doing this? Well,
you know, I think we were brutally honest because we
realized that we didn't know why we were doing it,
and that I think that's the we started. But why
(53:00):
are we doing this?
Speaker 2 (53:02):
You know?
Speaker 3 (53:02):
But it's traditional, you know, it's it's kata I I
wrote that the cat messages in movement left to us
by the masters, and I still adhere to that. I
still believe that. But what we had to do and
if you, if if listeners and viewers are familiar with
(53:26):
the Rosetta Stone by through which the Egyptian hieroglyphs hieroglyphs
were deciphered, then then we know that you know that
there were three different scripts, you know, and by identifying
the Egyptian with the Greek, you know, early scholars were
able to begin to decipher what those Egyptian hieroglyphs were
(53:51):
actually saying. And I think you know, for us, we
had to start with the premise that well, again I'll repeat,
why are we doing? What is this? So we've got
this sand chine and as I say, you know, imagine
trying to get into going to enter a ring, a
boxing or a UFC ring or a cage fight a
(54:14):
cage and and and sort of standing the not need
sandchin position. And you know, but as Tom alluded to earlier,
if you if you if you're hooking and trapping with
the sigh, and you're preventing it, making sure you're not
pulled out of your stance, then you know you need
to grip the ground in a certain way, and that
led to the construction of the stands and the design
(54:37):
of the movements. But in a freestyle fight that that
approach would be completely useless. And so I think you know,
to summarize, you know, we've tried to illustrate why or
how function dictates form.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
Thank you for joining us on this enlightening journey through
the mis and legends of karate. If you've enjoyed our podcast,
don't forget to subscribe and share it with fellow martial
arts enthusiasts. If you want to keep the dojo lights on,
consider supporting us through buying me a coffee or Patreon.
Your contribution helps us bring you more episodes. Remember, your
(55:18):
support keeps the karate myth debunked and the podcast alive.
Welcome to Great Karaatei Myths Debunking the Legends, a podcast
that chops through the forest of martial arts folklore to
reveal the true essence of karate. Join us your hosts,
Nier Nathan and Tom As we take you on a
journey through the dojo of Doubt, where we question the
tall tales and test the traditions that have shaped karati
as we know it, from the mystical to the misunderstood.
(00:28):
We break down the myths and.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Can build up the facts.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
But don't worry, debunking doesn't mean disrespecting the art. We'll
be celebrating the rich history of karate while setting the
record straight. Whether you're caeesared black belt, a novice starting
the karaiti bath, or just a curious listener, beare to
have your preconceptions shattered and your understanding of karate deepened.
So tie up your belts, bow in, and let's get
(00:52):
ready to rumble with truth. Welcome. The title for today's
show is Function Dictates Form. Nathan. In nineteen ninety four,
you published zenshal in Karate The Complete Philosophy, Practice and History,
(01:16):
where you use this aphorism to describe the observations that
led you to discover the essence of karate kata. Could
you describe how that thought process has led to what
the Classical Karate Association is doing now?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Well, you use a fancy term, it's our leaked motif.
It's it's it's it's how we started out. Really, so
we had this amazing We had kato, you know, solo choreographs,
sequences of movement that were said to contain the essence
(01:55):
of karate. Funicosei Jiten, the found of Chattakan Karate and
one of the biggest styles in the world, had a
lot to say about kata and yeah, to abbreviate it,
he said, it was basically the essence of karate ya
(02:15):
could be found in the in the kata, and for him,
h karate was the kata again and repeat, solo choreograph
sequences of movements. So when we looked at this as collectively,
because you know, we we've been a group of twenty
(02:39):
five thirty years. We twenty five years, we we started
with the kata, we took what the funicos Egitian sense
they said at face value and saw a disconnect between
these solo traditional solo choreograph sequences and and for instance
(03:01):
free sparring. The two didn't seem connected at all, so
we decided to concentrate on the kata. Oh what they meant?
What was the purpose of these enigmatic sequences?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Tom, what are your thoughts on function to taste form?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, yeah, you've got different different martial arts, different functions,
different sets of skills that have different context applications that
were going on and being used, and at some point
they in China became put together in forms that you
(03:42):
know that ultimately became the kata that were inherited in
Okinawa and Japan. And what seems to have been lost
in the transmission is the function of the forms, and
it's all then subsequently been reinterpreted or as unarmed self defense.
(04:03):
And the main body of work that Nathan pioneered is
the it's to seek the original functions of these forms,
what were they originally, what were they originally for? And
what we found, well Nathan started and the group has
found is that there are lots and lots of different things,
(04:25):
predominantly weapons based. And it led to the understanding that
you can really only have a kata for a very
limited purpose or a limited function. You can't have something
very very abstract that leads to a catter. So you
can't say unarmed self defense and then create a catter
(04:48):
out of it. It's just too big a problem to
solve in a CATA. And the other part of that
is that a kata doesn't really serve any usefulness in
terms of preparing for an un self defense. So, but
it is very very useful in it's in the concentrated
(05:12):
functions that were the original purpose of these forms. So,
for example, sanchin as you find it in weight your
EU originally being a SI catters. The purpose of it
is very very clear and simple. It's to develop the
use and skill of using the SI a pair of sigh.
(05:38):
So that involves flipping, gripping the angles that you would
make contact with, producing leverage, trapping, striking. All those basic
ingredients to use a pair of SI are contained within
that form. Now, if you that might still sound a
(05:59):
bit abstract. So the other part of this is that
there's a context for the function as well. It's not
just it's using sigh. It's not well, we take a
pair of sigh onto the battlefield, down to the or
anything like that. It's civil arrest is the context that
(06:20):
is where this type of usage of the si takes place.
And how do we know that, Well, you're not using
the sire to strike the eyes, you're not stabbing someone
in the eyes or throat with it. The structure of
the form, the cata and the layer of the techniques
(06:43):
are very particular in the where you're delivering the strikes,
where you're delivering pressure, where you're maneuvering. And so what's
absent in the form is just as important as what's
in there, and that's an important part of approaching the
(07:03):
original function of a form as well, to see what's
not there, which Nathan's written about and you know it's
so I'm just going to jump back to if you're
interpreting kata as on armed self defense, you've got to
ask the question, where's the ground grappling, where's the how
(07:24):
do you deal with multiple apparent what happens? If it
doesn't really answer any of those questions of being randomly
assaulted or anything like that, It's just there's no head butting,
there's no eye gouging, there's no biting, there's none of
that stuff in there. And so you can kind of
by process of elimination, throw out some of these ideas
(07:50):
which have been lumped onto forms, and work your way
back to the original functions, which is what we do
in the group now and have constant traded on. And
so when you get to these original functions, what you
find is why the form exists in the way that
(08:11):
it does. So, if you really want to understand the
san chin for example, and again I'll just reiterate as
found in weight you re, you you've kind of we've
worked out that it's a for the use of a
pair of sire training those fundamental skills and mechanisms for
manipulating the sire and using them in a similar sque context.
(08:36):
And there's a whole body of evidence for that. But
when you start working with that and exploring it, you
realize that the weight ye sand chin couldn't be any
other way. It really is a very very refined form
borne out of that function. There's no there's and it
(08:59):
can't be for anything else in a very useful way.
So as soon as you start saying, well I can
use that for unarmed combat, for example, it's got no
usage for it whatsoever. It just doesn't work. It doesn't
pull as a Nathan expression double duty. And so again
(09:24):
you can eliminate that, and you can see that these
functions became these forms, and that idea of creating a
cataor or a form or an embodied manual of particular
martial skills, particular sets of skills and functions to be
(09:45):
to train people to do jobs, to train people in
particular sets of skills for their craft, their trade, a
policeman and soldier, a bodyguard, a palace guard, and you've
got the manuals for it. You know that you go
and do this training, that you've got that role, then
(10:06):
it doesn't have this kind of oh well, I'm an
expert in policing, so therefore I can become a cage
fighter or something like that. And so that's some of
the ingredients of how function leads led to these forms.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
And yeah, well, just just to jump in here, I
think Tom's hit the proverbial nail squarely on the head.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
But with regard to well, I agree with everything that
he said, but then I suppose I would, but he
he what he's described. An important part of what he's
described is how how could you order ballistic fighting combat
in a sequence. I'll give it an example for you know,
(10:59):
for the viewers and listeners to to consider, to imagine, imagine,
you know, taking shadow boxing or you know, sort of
freestyle boxing and thinking might be we've got jabs, uppercuts, hooks, crosses,
you know, body shots. Yeah, right, okay, off you go,
people put that into a form. We could take argument's sake,
(11:25):
we could take ten people and say, right, off, you go,
put those techniques into a form, and you'd come up
with ten different forms from ten different from ten people,
and then we'd have the task of deciding who's correct,
which one would be authentic. You know. So here we go, Well,
(11:46):
so one person's got to you know, starts with opens
with a jab and and and then follows with a cross,
and it says, well, I've done that because you know
in boxing that works. We lead with a jab and
then try and sledgehammer the opponent, you know, with a
cross or and the other person is, well, no, I
like body shot. I like to get in close, you know,
I like to do a Mike Tyson and they hit
(12:09):
the ribs with a you know, so it's called a
I was taught I had a very good boxing coach
a hook to the ribs and then using the same
hand that you know, hook again to the head. So
you know, the second person might start their version of
a form or a catter, you know, with their predilection
(12:31):
or their interest in the hook. So they might open
their their creation with with hooks and and concentrate on hooks.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
A third person, you know, might decide, well, you know,
I like the big punch first. You know, I'm gonna
you know, I don't really care for jabs, so they
don't carry enough power. I want to hit hard. And
so it would go on through the ten people and
you'd end up with a lot of and the reality
is you couldn't successfully contain, which is why boxing doesn't
(13:03):
have kata. You couldn't. And not only boxing, but you
know kickboxing or cage fighting or you know ultimate fight
challenge competitions that they don't have kata for a very
good reason. You can't contain all of the variations and nuances.
It's funny. I mean, I wouldn't want to contest this
next point with anyone. But you know, over the years,
(13:28):
as a group, we looked at you know, we looked
at sports in general. I'm not suggesting creatives a sport
by the way. But we looked at tennis and cricket
and a number of different sports and you know, again
I don't want to I wouldn't want to contest this,
but we found that they're basically going to be around.
(13:49):
I don't want to make a theme of this about
twenty one movements. Also twenty odd movements that are going
to be repeated and are going to form the core
or the nuclear of any particular sport. And those things
aren't will inevitably be limited by by the human anatomy
(14:11):
and its physiology. So otherwise you've got two arms and
two legs and you know, a torso you know, in
a head and that's it, you know, so you one
inevitably will be limited and by that and you can't
put So when I would say ballistic movement, I mean
punching and kicking and striking. I do not mean grappling.
(14:34):
But interestingly, what I'm going to say now we contested
judo does have kata, but they're not they're not solo,
they're not for individuals. Their pairs work. So really, you know,
if we looked at and Tom did hit on the
fact that those forms originally that the catter that we
(14:56):
find in what became known as viewed as Japanese karate.
They did have their origins in China, and they were
transmitted through via the Riku Islands Chief Island Okinawa, and
they went to Japan as as late as nineteen twenty
(15:20):
one and then out to the rest of the world.
But those forms, as Tom correctly identified, were originated in China.
And he's again he's hit the nail on the head
by say, identifying those a lot of those original forms,
and Tom referred to the weights you do, which is
(15:41):
which are one of I would say, just three major
O Canaan karate styles, which interestingly actually went to Japan first,
But anyway, that's a moot point. He correctly identified those
forms as being weapons based, and and he referred to
(16:02):
the sanchin formed that all the three conflicts form which
which is the was said to be the beginning and
the end of karate by some teachers.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I think.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Words along those lines were used by by the founder
of which you do karatechi and continued by his his
son Kenni Waichi. And I think the side the three
pronged civil arrest tool, as Tom correctly says, it was
(16:42):
at the heart of of those forms, which again were
originated in China, then they're not they're not you know,
they're not Japanese and they originated in in China. So
the function dictating the form is that, you know, the
(17:03):
form is created to support the training, to create a
solo training regime for individuals or groups in a group activity.
It's almost a quasi militaristic process or practice. But these forms,
the important thing is they can be done solo alone,
(17:26):
which means, you know, you've got to take a takeaway practice.
I think you know, in another cast, or maybe later
in this one, we'll we'll come to how how these
forms came to be practiced without the weapons.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I just got to add something to that, Nathan as well.
The the you know this the question of whether cat
are even useful in the first place. And you know,
there's a very strong case for catepying extremely useful drills, exercises, practices,
(18:09):
whatever you want to define them as for weapons. So
what's the argument for that, Well, give someone a pair
of sight, show them some side techniques, and try to
get them to in any way apply them or have
the They won't have the strength, they won't have the coordination,
(18:29):
and but it's something that can be very rapidly acquired.
So you need the hand strength, you need the dexterity,
you need to be able to coordinate both arms to
work symmetrically and asymmetrically, and you know, independently, you know,
and produce different types of force with the limbs as well.
So if one arm is pinning, say, for example, is
(18:51):
using a trap, the other one is striking with the pommel.
So there's coordinated skills that require a mental process in
the beginning. And you know you can do that, you know,
with lots and lots of little exercises or drills. But
(19:12):
the kata is a very very well thought out and
well developed way of creating those core skills. The sandshin
is I'm just talking about here. So the sanshin is
is a brilliant drill to develop the strength of the hands,
to create be able to create leverage, the dexterity, to
(19:37):
flip the side to an open and closed position, to
coordinate the arms independently, which is the necessary foundations to
then be able to use the skills taught in the
seysan and the san serlio, which are the two forms
that follow the sanshin traditionally in which you and broadly
(20:02):
Nahte and so it serves it is very very useful.
It's a very very useful process and a very very
useful practice, and it's very the deeper we go into this,
which we will over time hopefully and presenting all the
evidence that we have will show just how carefully thought
(20:26):
out this has been. I'll just give some very quick examples,
So the opening of the weight Chie sanchin where the
arms pressed down to the side, come up to the
hips and fists and then thrust forward in a double
spear hand just for it's a way of it's a
mechanism to draw the SI. That's it. It's drawing the weapon.
(20:50):
It's being able to draw the tool without looking at it.
And you can refer to the Coda Yu YouTube video
of weight Chie Sanchin with the SI to have a
look at that.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
And it's a very useful mechanism being able to draw
your weapon without looking at it, to know where the
weapons are or the tools rather and then to bring
them into usage, particularly if you're already communicating with someone,
you're confronted with someone.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
So there's a tremendous nuance and tremendous thought that's gone
into putting these forms together. When you get to the
point where and the function was lost, it didn't come over,
it didn't make it to Wakinawa, and it's subsequentely reinterpreted
as unarmed combat, I would argue that it's not useful
(21:37):
at all. It's not a useful process to practice an
open handed sanchin for unarmed combat, because the way of
organizing the body and the structure of it is geared
towards creating leverage with the size and creating pressure at
close quarter with a with tools, not an unarmed exchange
(22:01):
a random unarmored exchange that can very quickly go to
the floor, or you know, and all the other things
that you know we've talked about ad nauseum. So so
answering that question, yes, the functions led to all, but
is a catter useful in the first place, I would
argue only with the original function very much.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yes, Yeah, I think that's a great answer. I think
you I'd like to raise this point now. This is
a long way away from for instance, when I when
I remember seeing the film starring Sean Connery giving my
age away here Goldfinger James Bond film and they had
(22:47):
the I've forgotten the name of the villain, it doesn't matter.
He had his henchman was called odd Job who had
a bowler hat with a steel rim and he threw it,
you know, and it kind of had the whole thing
had a martial art flavor. And the Bond movies were
(23:08):
known for, you know, bondle you had the karate chop
and you know what you're discussing. What we're discussing here
together is a long shot, a long far cry from
you know, from the general image of karate as punching
and kicking and and you know, an art of armed
(23:28):
self defense. So our discussion so far was you know,
miles away from from that. And I think it might
be worth going into how how we got how that,
how that occurred, because of course, not every karate, because
karate is divided into styles, and it was like counties
(23:51):
in a country or states in a country, and it's
divided into styles, and the different styles have different at
I think you're quite right, Tom, to identify the sanchin
kata is utterly central. But some styles, of course don't
practice sanchin. You know. I think it's important to note
(24:14):
that a lot of the so called styles have sets
of kata which is actually quite recent in a recently
invented and I think, without straying too far from the topic,
we need to just quickly look at a fundamental division
(24:35):
in karate to clear up why the different styles have
different kata. In the main, we can look at two
significant contributors to the creation of karate. One would be
the figure of Punicossi Jitchin, who died in nineteen fifties seven,
(25:00):
I think yes. And the other one would be Maggie Chojan,
the creator of go Juru karate, who died in nineteen
fifty three. So you know, I'm the you know this.
This is not a long time ago. It depends on
your point of view, but or on your index point.
But these are not ancient stars. In fact, you know,
(25:24):
in my own studies, I came to the conclusion that
Maaggie Chojan sensely had massive significant input, if not total,
was not totally responsible for the cata that became that
were used in the style of Gojo. It's in a
(25:47):
similar way Punkosi sensei, the founder of Shotokan karate. It
was only the second generation to pass on the penan
or the hyen as. Then in gozar A kata which
were only created in nineteen hundred and eight by one
of Pinkosi e Sensis teachers, he Tosu Sensei, So these
(26:11):
are relatively recently created kata. Now, when we go back
to the sanshin kata of the of the weight Huru,
one of these may not cannowned styles that Tom has
been highlighting in and explaining very accurately that kata is
the one of the oldest of the kata and one
(26:36):
of the potentially one of the most if not the
most significant Kararati cata again with its origins and roots
in China as a as a well, we've debated in
the past whether these are whether we should call them
weapons or tools. They're not for warfare, the sire not
for warfare, but they are as as Tom said, they
(26:58):
are tools that civil arras. They're not battlefield tools. But
the Wechi Sanchin is most like in our view, the
the original version which Maaggie Chojan sensei, the founder of
Go remodeled for for for the creation of his his
(27:21):
his his art goate and and in that case we
are not any longer really seeing that the the function
is dictating the form in the Weiti version, we can
see that quite clearly, and and and and and can
demonstrate why that form is in the order and sequence
(27:44):
the way it is that cannot be done so easily
with Maggie Chojan senses variation. We know historically that Maaggie
Chojan Senses Sanchin Kata came from the same source as
Cambin Weichi, the founder of weight you Do Kata came
from and we'll discussed that source in the future, but
(28:10):
you know, we're aware that they came from the same origin.
But Maggie Trojan sense he ah took out he closed
the fist that didn't use the open hands. Sanchez divide
into three sections, and in section one, the weighty version
has keeps the hands open, whereas the go through version
(28:33):
has turned the open hand into a clenched fist. This
is hugely significant because the open hand the Weichi version
doesn't alter or change the function, but when you get
to closing the fist, then you end up with something
(28:56):
that's well without being critical, go to do sanction is
incredibly pop It is probably you know, it's practiced all
over the world, but you know, by several million people.
But it's the way she sanction is less common. But
it is notwithstanding that the prototype, and it is the
(29:18):
a great source for being able to to to be
able to say function dictates form. If karata hits a
point of which the function the form doesn't, this doesn't
reveal the function, then the kara, as Tom alluded to,
(29:41):
becomes an abstract and you can't you know, and then
anything can be anything, which is indeed what's been happening
in karate that you know, it's all down to personal interpretation,
you know, and and and you know you if you
dare to say that it's actually, for prinstance, stick with
(30:03):
the way she sanction, if you dare to say that
it's actually got a clear function, then one can be
or we can be seen as zealots somehow you know
we've got the truth, and so on. But it's a
great exemplar of how function does indeed dictate form.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I recall when Nathan published The Great Karate Myth, Unraveling
the Mystery of Karate back here in two thousand and six.
It was extremely controversial and there was so much pushback
from mainstream karate styles, with many of them saying, well,
(30:45):
why would you want a kata for weapons.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
There were ways of learning to do things. So it's
not that a kata is necessarily a better idea than
anything else, or that it's somehow is special, because you know,
it's all you know, it's got special qualities that can't
be done in any other way. It's not true. You could,
(31:11):
as I said, you could take a pair of zie
and you could do lots of different drills, and there
are other ways, you know, but it's been conveniently put
together in the same way that a college education is
put together or a university education is. Having a ordered
syllabus or a kind of direction with your learning or
(31:34):
development is a youthful process, and that's the same with
learning tools how to use tools. You're not going to
be given a pair of sig and go right, just
do whatever you want with them. It's not a useful
way of developing someone that's going to be efficient with
that particular tool or in those particular types of skill
(31:55):
in the top the context WHI in which they're used,
and so the categorism something particularly special, but it's a
very very it's an embodied manual, it's a it's a
physical man they're physical manuals. So it's it's a body
of knowledge that's been collated together to develop a particular
(32:16):
to develop the ability in a particular function. When, as
Nathan said, that's that function is lost and then it's reinterpreted.
That's how you end up with styles, because if you're
learning how to use a tool, you're learning how to
use it, you're learning a skill for a trade, a
craft or job or whatever. You don't go, well, you know,
(32:40):
it's not like styles of tennis. You'd play tennis, so
you know, it's like, well, you know there's a gassy
ree and you know Henman rue and all the rest
of it. I'm sure there are things that make that
unique to that individual, but it's not styles that there's
a particular method and there's a function on a way
(33:00):
to use a racket. It's the same with the sigh.
There'll be some nuances because of bodies and things like that,
but fundamentally you need to be able to grip, flip,
create leverage, and strike with those with that tool. That's
the job. You're not allowed to gouge someone's eye out.
You're a policeman. You can't stab someone in the throat.
(33:21):
You're a policeman. You've got to disarm someone without cause
it inflicting too much damage. You're a policeman. So the
context is the territory which the skills are applied in,
and so that's your function. That's how you arrive at
the form and the manuals have been formed and put together.
(33:42):
Those manuals exist in European martial art, sure, but they're
just done differently and perhaps not in the way that
kind of happened in China, this very concentrated way of
formalizing different martial skills and the use of tools and
things like that. When you interpreted, interpret the kata any
(34:08):
way that you want and make it anything you want,
that's how you end up with styles because it becomes well,
he thinks this, and he thinks or they think that
this kata is better this or this collection of kata
is superior. When you have this many and this person thing, well,
that doesn't mean anything because it doesn't really speak to
the functions of the forms.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
It's just.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
And the individual that put together the kind of spoofy, well,
I'm going to do a kata with an ak forty seven,
you know, Okay, great, get that's what you can do
still yet to see a presentation of what a kata
was originally for. And the challenge that I would put
out to anyone that thinks that kata are unarmed combat
(34:57):
or to be freely into interpreted as anyone sees pleases,
is create one. And I wrote about this before, very briefly,
create a kata. It's not that easy. Create a kata
that then you can then freely interpret, or that anyone
can freely interpret. It's not easy. And the forms that
(35:22):
were created later without functions tend to be based on
older forms that did have functions. So Ittosu wasn't starting
from scratch, basing his penan forms or hear in forms
on combative experience. He was using excuse me, older material
(35:44):
which did have functions. Kusang ku has a function, sanchin
has a function, say san has a function. These are
the older what we would describe as the antique forms
inherited from China. They came without the functions, but they
were put together. They were formalized from function within a
(36:07):
rory with a territory which was the context to be
applied within a within a context. Try and do it
from scratch, put one together. It's really hard, and you
will never ever quite make the cup if you say
it's unarmed combat, because you will be missing vast amounts
(36:29):
of material. You're going to have to consider what's the
range you're starting in. You're going to have to consider
right punching, elbows, knees, head butts, biting and gouging, grappling,
And then you've got the problem of you know, I
mean not all grappling is conducive to concealed weapons. So
(36:55):
are you are you working from the approach that you're
being attacked randomly, or are you working it from the
approach that you're starting facing someone knowing that you're in
a situation. You know, you go on with this, but
ever and ever and ever, and it's tedious because it's
so complex, and it highlights that formalizing unarmed combat in
(37:17):
a kata is just not a useful thing to do.
It's not a useful practice to do that unless you
would distill it right down to something very very very simple,
a very simple idea. They won't go into it now,
but which is what essentially gets you through, which is
(37:38):
a very very simple idea to work at a distance
and timing. Fundamentally, that was the idea, and he created
the tenno Kata and very clearly outlined the application process
of what it's for. And I'm not saying it's for
(38:00):
a fight or anything like that, but you can distill
it down and do it very simply like that, or
you end up in this kind of abstract mess that
never that never ends. And you know, some of the
questions that come up, are are all cutter one on
one combat then? Or are you fighting multiples? Are all
(38:22):
cutter unarmed?
Speaker 3 (38:24):
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Why can you mix and match?
Speaker 3 (38:27):
So?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Can I mix and match nihanji with goju shih and
sam sail? You can I cherry pick what I want?
And if so, why is that the case? Why is
that okay? Why not have all those cutters one long,
never ending for Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
I might to jump in here and say, well, at
least a very important point that experienced kardatka or curate
practitioners are very well aware of that you you have
the formalized practice the kata, these sequences which which which
(39:06):
I have nothing to do with the free sparring. So
when it comes to the idea of fighting or how
you might one might fight by punching and kicking and blocking,
it the creating practitioners, the cretic have a real difficulty
in in in in in using the kata in a
(39:27):
freestyle format. In fact, it's impossible, which which means that
within a given style basically are three things going on.
There's the formal kata, the handed down kata. Then there's
a reduction of that into into so called basics, which
(39:47):
are referred to as kiroon the basic training, which is
repetition of individual parts might be punch, punches or blocks
or strikes or whatever. And so you have the kata
which which are the solo choreograph sequences. Then you have
the sort of basics the keyhorn the training. And then
(40:08):
you have a third component, a third layer to the karate,
do you commute. Commute means meeting hands or sparring as
most people understand it, which doesn't resemble really hugely. The
other two components doesn't particularly resemble the cat So what
are formal blocks end up being sort of light slaps
(40:28):
and parries, you know, generally with the hand open, and
they really have don't bear a lot of they're not
directly connected to the formal kata. So you end up
with three components in the one style which don't blend
together seamlessly. In fact, they don't blend together at all.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
There's a karate combat is a great example of that.
Looking at some of the I mean the incredible athletes,
non insight, no sand chin in sight anywhere, just very
very skilled fighters doing what they you know, doing, applying
all of those skills in the way that they need
(41:10):
to be for full contact ring fighting. And and so
you know, the question is, well, were the cat are
ever useful? Were they ever really for something? Or they
were they a terrible idea in the first place. And
the answers, no, they were for something very very different
that and they've become something else. And I think that
(41:32):
the original functions of these forms actually will enriches karate
as a subject and almost liberates, you know, a lot
of possibilities for its future in that you don't have
to try to get you unarmed self defense or whatever
(41:54):
from antique forms which don't have the content. They don't
have the material you need to successfully survive an altercation
or being assorted in the streets. So that they don't
have that material, they have something else which is very
rich in history, and they're older martial skills and you
can if you were intent on surviving an altercation or
(42:18):
becoming a good full contact fighter or something, you can
kind of put that stuff aside and say, well, that's
not what I'm doing, and we can kind of sort
it all out a little bit almost, and say, well,
this is these antique forms were SI and tom FA
and you know, different weapons and things like that, and
(42:39):
then we've got what karate became, and we've all got
the tremendous skills in the full contact fighting, and we
don't need to mix them up and mash it all
together and pretend that it's all the same stuff because
it's it's not. And knowing that we can move forward.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
And that's what we're trying to do with the Kido
Ru Classical Karate Association. We're trying to classify what karate
kata was, what it became, and what it is today,
and in doing so we satisfy the catacritics.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah, I think the catacritics out there, you know, particularly
from the MMA end of things, I think they're right.
You know, why would you practice forms for full contact?
I think they're absolutely right. I've got no disagreement whatsoever
with what they're saying. Because that's not what they were for.
(43:33):
You know, in the same way that you know a rifle,
drill or anything like that has got no place in
the cage. Using some civil arrest tools from late being
early Qing dynasty China, it's got no those techniques, those
skills have got no place in the cage or for
(43:53):
modern day you know, the violence that occurs today. If
we all started policing with SIE again and then well,
you know, it might be it might have a case,
but that is not But we can we can you know,
record record those historical martial arts, and some people will
(44:18):
be very interested in those, and that's great. You know
that there's there's a place for there's a place for
the antique forms and their original functions in the modern
martial arts, but certainly not confusing them with or pretending
that they have some place in MM. A MMA really
(44:39):
is proves what works and what doesn't work to it.
And you know the randomness of violence, and you know
what takes place now with people being assorted and stabbed
and things like that, it's almost dangerous to say that
you could somehow prepare for that with a with an
antique form design for developing the ability to use and
(45:02):
manipulate a pair of sye. Just one more point to
just quickly throw in is about holding holding the material
to a standard as well, And it's another way of
approaching that, does you know, does it meet the standard?
Does it meet the critter? If you're saying a cat
or is something, are you able to critically look at
(45:26):
that and also back up what you're saying as well?
So you know, weight she sanchi is such a great
example because it's it looks quite peculiarly, it's quite obscure
when it's performed without the tools, as a lot of
these forms are. And so if you're saying that it's
preparation for unarmed and armed fighting or violent altercation, are
(45:50):
you holding are you holding that statement to a standard
of you know, have you got the evidence? Are you
able to provide evidence? And you able to really meet
the criticisms that are going to come flying your way.
And it's happened a lot with lots of different martial arts,
you know, lots of form based martial arts have not
(46:11):
coped very well with the criticisms. But instead of holding
their own materials to certain standards and going well, okay,
I'm seeing this, that this is not working in a
fight that I'm not seeing a lot of that at
the moment. Maybe I'm just not seen the white people.
(46:34):
I don't know. But holding the material to the standard
and really and that's been a lot of the process
within our group is to really really critically look at
this and every time something's brought to the table, the
group gets to critique it. The group gets to go, well,
(46:55):
I don't agree with that, or to bring in all
the different experience within the group and all the different
knowledge accumulated to really hold the CATA to a high standard.
So it's not simply a case of the SI kind
of fits or anything like that. It exactly fits. And
as it's unfolded, it's not what we are doing a
(47:18):
CATA with the Sieyes is that it's not simply doing
a CATA that we think was SI. There's a body
of evidence which creates this standard that we to present
and say, yeah, this is SI we're not coming from
(47:40):
and go, well, we kind of think it is and
it kind of fits and it kind of might work
like that. No, it's absolutely that, And we'll go through
step by step every all the details and all the
information over time, but yes, instead of just ducking away
from where I you know, yeah, it doesn't really work
for a fire, but I'm going to kind of pretend
(48:01):
it does, and I'm going to keep doing anyway. It's
asking the question, what is this really for? Why am
I really doing this? Is it worth my time? Was
it a good idea in the first place? And so on?
Speaker 1 (48:12):
And let's briefly mention the UFC the Ultimate Fighting Championship, Now,
that was the single largest critic of kata and form
based martial arts.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yeah, I mean form based martial arts got annihilated. No
one's gone in and gone. I'm really glad I was
doing my handshet in preparation for my cage fight, because
you know, they got I mean, wing chun got annihilated. Karate,
the early guys got annihilated. You had later fighters like
(48:48):
Ta Machida and you know that were highly skilled in
full contact sparring. And so there's a different area of
karate that became very well applied in MMA, but not
the form based stuff and the form based martial arts.
We haven't seen lots of the kung fu system, the
(49:10):
form based kung fu system, so we're not seeing five
ancestor fists dominating one or Pride or you know, or UFC.
We're not seeing the white crane guys going in and
or the whooping crane guys, or the where are the
mantis people? Where are the you know, all your internal
(49:31):
martial arts, form based martial arts like tai chi, where
are they in mma? They've got annihilated. And so either
it might be that they were unlucky on the day
shore or maybe that the material that they're using to
prepare themselves for that context isn't the right material. And
(49:52):
if it's not the right material, was it originally for
something else? And I would argue.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Yes, in nineteen in the nineteen Night, I predicted I'm
not a prophet or something, but I did predict that
the developed that sparring and freestyle fighting would develop ultimately
into into what it did, into the ultimate fight challenge
and the and the cage fighting and the Pride and
(50:21):
the rest of it. As you mentioned, I confidently predicted that.
But then I'd already spent a lifetime and you know,
been involved in this.
Speaker 5 (50:31):
It's it's, it's it's it's.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
Been a lifetime, a lifetime's work. But effectively the it's
not really about me being able to predict it. But
I think that who can imagine getting in the sort
of not needs sanchin stance and you know, with the
with the open hands and getting in a ring with
(50:53):
somebody you know, and trying to use sanchin. Now, apologists
for it quite often fall back on and which is
partly what sanchin has been used for or interpreted as
that they fall back on the the idea that it's
body conditioning. So I can't put words in them, but
(51:15):
over the years I've come across their arguments, and their
arguments are that it's about conditioning. Then there's a physical conditioning,
So there's something that that gets used in gojoate and
what you do and and many other styles called schime testing,
in which you know, the idea is that you armor
the body and you know, you know how to tense
(51:38):
the muscles in the right places and in the right way.
It's very theoretical, but sort of blows are sort of
they look like sound. Blows are delivered to the to
the to the to the usually to the trunk and
the shoulders, and there's sort of fierce slaps on the shoulder.
I'm not I'm not knocking decrying this. If people choose
(51:58):
to practice that will follow it or believe that's it,
that's that's up to them. When faced with the evidence
that we're dwelling on sanchin but that it's a psyde catter,
lots of people that have pursued that, I don't want
to know. That's not not no, no, no, it's armoring,
it's body conditioning. It's and as we've discussed many many
(52:18):
times over over the years, if you want to condition
the body, and there are very good Western ext weightlifting,
you know, gymnastics, weightlifting, particularly isometrics, all kinds of things,
and we can see that there's almost a It started
in China, so let's let's let's include China, Okanaara and
(52:39):
Japan and then on into the West. This idea that
sanchin is about body conditioning, and that's because they've had
to give it a function. Why are we doing this? Well,
you know, I think we were brutally honest because we
realized that we didn't know why we were doing it,
and that I think that's the we started. But why
(53:00):
are we doing this?
Speaker 2 (53:02):
You know?
Speaker 3 (53:02):
But it's traditional, you know, it's it's kata I I
wrote that the cat messages in movement left to us
by the masters, and I still adhere to that. I
still believe that. But what we had to do and
if you, if if listeners and viewers are familiar with
(53:26):
the Rosetta Stone by through which the Egyptian hieroglyphs hieroglyphs
were deciphered, then then we know that you know that
there were three different scripts, you know, and by identifying
the Egyptian with the Greek, you know, early scholars were
able to begin to decipher what those Egyptian hieroglyphs were
(53:51):
actually saying. And I think you know, for us, we
had to start with the premise that well, again I'll repeat,
why are we doing? What is this? So we've got
this sand chine and as I say, you know, imagine
trying to get into going to enter a ring, a
boxing or a UFC ring or a cage fight a
(54:14):
cage and and and sort of standing the not need
sandchin position. And you know, but as Tom alluded to earlier,
if you if you if you're hooking and trapping with
the sigh, and you're preventing it, making sure you're not
pulled out of your stance, then you know you need
to grip the ground in a certain way, and that
led to the construction of the stands and the design
(54:37):
of the movements. But in a freestyle fight that that
approach would be completely useless. And so I think you know,
to summarize, you know, we've tried to illustrate why or
how function dictates form.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
Thank you for joining us on this enlightening journey through
the mis and legends of karate. If you've enjoyed our podcast,
don't forget to subscribe and share it with fellow martial
arts enthusiasts. If you want to keep the dojo lights on,
consider supporting us through buying me a coffee or Patreon.
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(55:18):
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