August 22, 2025 • 40 mins
On this episode of “Great Karate Myths,” we unravel the truth behind classical karate kata. 🥋 We’re asking a controversial question: why is there no ground grappling in the antique forms? 🧐 We'll explore the life-or-death context of policing and weapon defense, and why staying upright was the only option. Discover how the modern idea of a "complete martial artist" is a far cry from the original purpose of these ancient forms. ⚔️ Get ready to challenge everything you thought you knew about martial arts history!
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(00:05):
Welcome back to Great Karate Myths Debunking the legends.
Today we're tackling A fascinating question.
About a. Core concept in modern martial
arts ground grappling. We're asking where is the ground
grappling in antique karate Qatar?
Stick around as we break down why a weapon, a knife in the
(00:27):
life or death situation make ground fighting a very, very bad
idea. OK, so Nathan, where is the
ground grappling in Qatar? Yeah, I'm going to give.
I'm going to give you the extended long answer nowhere.
(01:00):
It's, it's not, it's not in the Katter.
Clearly it's it's not in the Katter, but you know, Karnataka
wearing Karate D uniforms and I'm wearing black belts.
If they are in fact and downgrades or black belts.
(01:21):
People are now doing it. Take people to the ground and
they're doing our it's been happening a long time.
I think that people like Mario Higon, that sense of the go Judy
Karate was was doing it. I don't know, in the 70s and
80s, you know, take a person to the ground and maybe foot suit
(01:41):
them and then put an arm bar on.They can do that.
They can do anything they like, but that's not in the cattle.
Some people have tried to so to to suggest that where in Kasanku
there's a movement where the practitioner sort of almost
kneel on the ground and is very low to the ground, but that's
(02:01):
somehow ground grappling. But that's examples of anything
like that are few and far between in the Qatar and they
don't exist at all in the Nahar Qatar, the Sanchin, the Seisan
and the San Serdi, which we cover in another caste, which
were the core Qatar for Nahar Karate and still extant in the
(02:23):
weight you do. We will also be covering the
fact that those cattle were, youknow, did crossover into into
the Megichojian senses Gojiri karate.
And we will, we will, you know, we will find later that those,
those cattle all came from all had the worm.
(02:47):
The, the core Qatar for Gojiru and the core Qatar for Waititu
came from the same Dojo. None of those Qatar, the three
I've mentioned or, or pretty much any of the others have any
kind of ground grappling. No, no, even the Nihanshin,
which we, we, we, which we've understood for coming up to 30
(03:08):
years, but we've understood is, is grappling, but it's not
ground grappling. There is no jiu jitsu, no
Brazilian type jiu Jitsu, no judo type grappling, nothing on
the ground in the traditional catter.
And that tells you something or should do if if you're
listening. Yeah, over to you, Tom.
(03:32):
There's a good a good place to start with this is the.
Premise. That we've understood about the
antique forms is that they're todo all to do with weapons and so
the last place you'd ever want to be either trying to use a
weapon or on the receiving end of a weapon is on the ground.
So it's it's just sort of it's foolish to think that you could
(03:53):
be effective on the ground whileusing a pair of side.
And we've, we've started to introduce the research on the
Weichi Sanchin, Seisan and Sansadiyuk, the three forms that
yes, and said the Nahate type karate and therefore using a
pair of PSI and there's nothing you would never be able to use
(04:16):
them on the ground and you couldn't be effective with them
on the ground. And so, so it's, it's just not
in there. It's that simple in it's a
completely different mindset from what you see today in
modern martial arts. There's this consideration that
to be a complete martial artist,you have to be efficient on the
ground and it's just not true. It just wasn't true then that
(04:40):
that that kind of thinking didn't didn't exist.
The idea of a complete martial artist is a kind of modern a
modern idea where you are good in all the ranges, you know,
punching, kicking, grab at throwing and, and ground
fighting and all the rest of it.The antique forms didn't emerge
(05:01):
out of that type of thinking. They emerged out of a function
of the form, which is to use a pair of PSI to trap, pin, press,
strike someone else armed with aweapon, they would be drawn to
deal with another weapon. So the most common weapon you're
going to come across is probablya knife.
(05:21):
And so the pair of PSI, you know, drawn ready to use by one
or two officers working togetheragainst against a knife, you
think the last place you're going to go if someone's got a
knife is on the ground because you're dead.
And considering a weapon, considering a knife eliminates
(05:45):
most modern ground fighting. I don't care who you are on the
ground, you give someone a knifeand you're you're mincemeat,
you're done. And and so it's just, it's not
there because it wasn't necessary.
It wasn't needed. If you ended up on the ground,
hopefully your colleague will bethere to the rescue.
Otherwise you're stuck. And that kind of highlights that
(06:09):
the Qatar don't really contain all the answers to everything
and nor should they. They're giving you a map of the
territory, fundamental core skills that then you take out
and hopefully gather enough experience absolutely to be able
to use them effectively, and fighting on the ground just
wasn't a consideration. Yeah, I I think the grappling in
(06:36):
ground fighting Fukova in a serious way with the advent of
the everyone knows this with themixed martial arts where we saw
the the punches and the kickers swiftly getting taken to the
ground and locked up. And I think, you know, some
martial artists just in my my view, were intimidated by that.
(06:59):
It was, you know, and, and it, it was considered to be brutally
effective. I mean, there are all sorts of
theories and conspiracies and ideas and about that it was
rigged and that, you know, the early, you know, I don't want to
go there. I don't know, can't prove it.
(07:20):
But ever since that whether it was or wasn't isn't the issue,
it's still, now, you know, there's still this groundwork,
this, this, this grappling on the floor.
And grappling has become synonymous with fighting on the
floor. And it if we look at my
hamptune, which is completely grappling, none of it is on the
floor. And that is the primary chorin
(07:41):
Uri or shurite kata. And it yes, it's grappling, but
the operative remains upright. You know, the whole throughout
the whole entire cater, yes, they put the, the, the person
who's being grappled, that person is on the floor, but the
operative is not on the floor. And that is, you know, that
(08:02):
illustrates the, the whole, the essence of the, of the Shoren
Rieu approach, the operative, the, the, the person in control
is in control and his upright isnot on the floor.
You know, that's, that's but theperson who is being subdued is
(08:23):
on the floor. And when they're, you know, get
up from the floor, they are, they are kept locked.
And, and, and that is the basis of, of the whole approach to
Shorenreu karate. So this taking someone to the
floor and going to the floor yourself is, well, quite
frankly, it's a nonsense as far as karate kata are concerned.
(08:48):
Yeah, I think you highlighted a point there where we're talking
about just things that are worlds apart in the a grappling
match is, is an agreement. It's taking place under
controlled conditions and, and, and, you know, has ruled, but
under, yeah, it's under an agreement that no one's going to
(09:09):
run in and open whoever they can.
No one's, the referee isn't going to jump on top of anyone
or, or throw some glass in. And that's, excuse me, I, I,
I've. Been to your local?
Coming around. I've I've been to your local.
Power, yeah, but the you know, it's easy to be drawn in by the
(09:35):
immense athleticism of the top grapplers.
I mean, the competitions are amazing and the athletes are
amazing and, and it's the same with the UFC.
The athletes are absolutely incredible.
But it's a world apart from the,the psychology and the, the
thinking of the antique forms, which is nothing to do with any
(09:56):
kind of agreement matched by dual or something that's going
to go on for a long period of time.
The, the, you know, when you're dealing with someone with
weapons, the longer you're engaged with that person, the
greater the risk. The risk just goes through the
roof exponentially. If you're trying to stop someone
(10:17):
with a knife, the longer it takes you, you know you're going
to really run the, if you're notalready cut, the likelihood is
you might be and it could potentially be fatal.
And so there's a massive risk involved in the use of the sigh
and the other antique forms we're talking.
About life or death risk. Really, and I don't want to
(10:39):
sound dramatic or like, oh, you know, this is something better
or special. It's just I'm highlighting that
it's completely different. So once you draw the sign, the
idea is to use them as quickly as you can to disarm, to engage
and disarm the person so that they're, they're no longer a
threat. And the idea of that being any
(11:01):
kind of reciprocal backwards andforwards, he's going to slash
and I'm going to dodge. Oh, I'm going to parrot.
It's all crap. It's nothing to do with that
whatsoever. It's go 1st and overwhelm as
quickly as you can and get the job done.
And so there's a very different psychology that emerges in those
(11:23):
ways of, in those different types of practise and, and
martial skills. And, and that's what we're
talking about with the antique forms.
We're not talking about, you know, backwards and forwards.
And and so when you see Qatar applied in a way that it kind of
looks like a jewel or there's going to be some somebody throws
(11:45):
a punch and there's a block and there's a second punch comes in
or there's kind anything that starts to have 1234 you, you're
locked into that modern martial artist approach of, you know,
there's going to be these interactions like you see in an
MMA fight. I'm not saying they're easy or
simple, because they're not. But that's not, that's not what
(12:08):
we've found and understood to betrue of the antique forms.
And this huge emphasis on going first, you know, being proactive
pre emptive if possible and proactive all the way through,
overwhelmingly proactive to dealwith that rapidly escalating
(12:30):
risk and, and and so on. It's very, very different.
And so, so something else you mentioned just there that when
you said it's not a duel as well, and that understanding
that it's not one to one, it's it's many to one or two to one,
it is a civil arrest And and it's it's, you know, the
(12:50):
officers don't go. Around on their own, no.
And it's the same with the. Palace.
Guards and the you know you'd beworking in a team.
So we mentioned this before reversing, reversing the modern
approach. So Katabunkai being dealing with
multiple opponents, you fight off 1, then you fight off the
next one for the antique forms. You reverse that it's you and a
(13:13):
few other people taking on one. There's one person with a, with
a blade is so deadly, they don'tneed any training.
They're going to be deadly. You know, you've got a sharp
knife you it's, it's very, very serious.
And so there's a consideration in those antique forms, from my
(13:34):
understanding, particularly of the Seisan and the Sanseria,
which demonstrates working in unison with others.
And none of this and to kind of stay on topic, none of this has
anything to do with grappling. And there, there's, there's no
concept of wrestling in these forms because you're not in any
(13:55):
kind of a match, you're not hustling in a way that you would
be fighting for a grit or positional dominance in a
grappling match. It's, it's not of it at all.
It's it's a world of 1. The other person is not going to
be trying to do to you what you're trying to do to him.
Because absolutely. Yeah.
(14:17):
Not 2 trained athletes or sportsmen at all.
It's it's, you know, leasing and.
I mean, you know, no assumption can be made.
Oh, look, the bad. It's not like a Kung Fu movie
where you know, where you know, where the attackers all
conveniently know gung Fu and the hero knows gung Fu and they
Duke it out, they slug it out, you know, until the good guy
wins and the bad guy is defeated.
(14:38):
You know, and conveniently the bad guys always know all of the
the gum fu. And so you get this tic tac
picture pass a, you know, exchange of, of, of, of, of
techniques, which is couldn't befurther from, from, from the
truth. You know, you're, you're,
you're, it doesn't mean that the, the arresting officers
didn't, you know, ever come across somebody who had skills.
(15:00):
But there's the assumption or this idea that it could be
connected with the battlefield where obviously the other person
is equally armed. As, you know, I think one of the
last weapons anyone with any common sense would want to take
onto a battlefield is a pair of sight.
It's got no cutting edge. Then what can you do?
You, you could poke somebody with it and if they're if
they're wearing armour, you're going to have a bad day.
(15:22):
You know, you're going to find that, you know, was there a
razor sharp sword swings down and, you know, cuts your arm
off. You're going to realise you've
gone to war with the with the wrong gear.
You know, it's, it's not a battlefield, a piece of a tool
at all. But the, the, the idea that
there's a, a reciprocal fight and that the other person might
(15:44):
have some moves is it is, it is quite frankly wrong.
It's, it's, it's, it's wrong. And you've raised a very
important point about the dual because that's the context in
which many martial arts are seen.
And and as I said, well, a lot of that comes from from films.
You know, there's always the, you know, I, you know, who's no
(16:05):
one's ever going to forget the first time they I saw for the
ending, everyone sees Enter the Dragon with, with Bruce Lee.
No one's ever going to, you know, forget that, you know, and
it's, it's based on a series of duels.
The whole film is you know, people and, and you know, and,
and it's just assumed that that's, that's what how martial
arts unfold. That's what you're doing.
(16:26):
Once you understand the context of policing, then it's, you
know, the police officer today doesn't these days wherever
doesn't necessarily expect who might get someone who's done a
bit of karate. But you're not going to get the
the sort of incredible sequencesof, of, of, of martial arts
occurring between someone who's being arrested and, and, and
(16:49):
police officers. And as we've touched on before,
anyone that's seen arrests. Yeah, the van opens up our pile
a number of officers, you know, take down who they whatever the
target is. And it doesn't matter what fancy
moves the, the bad guy has, you know, he's going to get detained
(17:12):
and go to gaol, you know, so youknow, the context of retirement
approach of a sporting approach and of, of an agreed combat a a
deal. That's the term we've used
because it may like, you know, pistols at dawn or rapiers or
something. Couple of gentlemen having an
argument over gambling or, I don't know, whatever.
(17:35):
And, and, and, and agreeing to new fight or, or people in a
sporting contest. And in completely wrong in terms
of the the context that the Qatar the the what the cattle
were designed for I think. Just.
(17:57):
Adding to that, Nathan, the. That's the sparring is actually
a pretty useless mode of practise to to go alongside the
antique forms, precisely for thereasons you've just explained.
And there's this. The idea of a jewel.
Or sparring or a match or anything like, it's very, very
(18:19):
hard to break out of that mindset, I think.
And it's even trying to, you know, when you're trying to
understand the movements in the,in the right context, it's very
easy to slip into, well, if somebody does this, then this.
If you're in that point, if somebody does this, then this in
(18:40):
terms of looking at an antique form, you've already wandered
back into that duelling, duelling territory.
And I think the intention in theway that the antique forms were
to be used in that very in the applied function, if you like,
(19:02):
is it would be really quick and hopefully over quickly.
So you staying with our example of using a pair of Sai.
I mean, the Sai are iron truncheons.
You know, that's what they are. It's a pair of trunches.
They're for bashing and, and andhitting with the pomble.
If someone's armed with a knife,once you've drawn them, if you
(19:23):
haven't been able to back the knife out of their hands
quickly, you know, the the risk it gets goes exponentially up
through the roof of being injured.
But if you find yourself in a situation where you're blocking
and countering, you're in that duelling territory, then it's
anyone's fight and you're, you've stepped outside the what
(19:46):
the antique forms are showing you and, and, and showing how to
navigate the territory, how to go first here.
You know how to, to stay proactive, how to continue to
overwhelm in what's essentially A chaotic environment.
And I think that. Something that has come up a lot
(20:08):
is that just because the antiqueforms have got these brilliant
functions, there's no, there's no guarantee of the outcome.
And I think that's one of the big problems in the modern
bunkai, modern application approach to forms is that
there's this kind of assumed outcome and so that you kind of
(20:29):
win and you kind of stop. I I don't think that's very
helpful at all. And I don't think that's what
the antique forms demonstrate. They don't assume the outcome
that you're going to win or thatit's going to be effective.
It's, it's, it's trying to give you some leverage in a very
chaotic situation. Oh, OK.
(20:50):
Well, so we've established it's not a due and that's that's
critical to understanding the capital.
But there are lots of practitioners.
So if we go back to when, if yougo back to the the 60s and 70s,
there was not a lot of application around of, of
so-called bunkai or interpretation or application.
(21:13):
However you want to translate the term.
If we go back to the 60s and 70s, there was very little of
it, but it it grew. One saw it really begin to
appear in the early 80s and through the 80s.
And there were radical voices out there careful of the use of
(21:34):
that word, but not, I'm not talking about religious or
political, I'm talking about karate only.
But there were radical voices out there or, or, or or new
thinking. And I know I was, I was involved
in that new thinking that, you know, this multiple opponent
block strike best exemplified inNakiyama Sensei's best karate
(21:59):
series. It was a whole series of of of
of books. I forget the publisher might
have been Kurantia demonstratingkarate applications to the to
Shuktiken Qatar. And at that time Nakayama Sensei
was the chief instructor to the Japan Karate Association.
(22:20):
And these books tried to lay down some applications to the
Qatar, but they were quite strange in the sense that, you
know, the defender would be stood, you know, in, in in his
ready position and and the attackers would come at him, you
know, 1 to 4 attackers, sometimes more, but usually any
anywhere from 1:00 to 4:00. And the defender would move off
(22:45):
on angles resembling the cater and do a a block or a double
block. And it used to be strange
positions and like the cater. But no one had to wonder, why
did you do? Why did you do an augmented, you
know, a forearm block that's supported against a particular
punch as opposed to a conventional forearm block with
(23:06):
one arm? I remember asking a very
prominent sense that once in the80s.
And his response was that if theattack was particularly strong,
you would augment your block, which made no sense to me at all
because I immediately asked him,how do you know?
How do you know? How can you measure by vision
the the strength of an attack? And the answer I got back was,
(23:29):
well, some of it would be depending on their, on your, on
their demeanour and their gait and their physical size.
So here we go. So in other words, if the chap
big and mean looking, get ready to use your augmented block.
And if he's just an average Joe,you know, you can get away with
a, you know, a conventional middle level forearm block or
(23:51):
whatever it is made absolutely no sense to me.
But here we were presented with a whole series of of books that
that showed that you might move off to the right and and defend
and then counter one opponent. Meanwhile, but like the films
really meanwhile, you know, the other guys usually was guys we'd
(24:11):
be there patiently waiting for their they'd be queuing up for.
So the next one would then attack you, maybe from the left.
So you you can and do a defensive manoeuvre and counter
him and then the third one and these guys would all sort of go
one at the time, you know, very polite, lovely, you know, so
(24:34):
completely not non realistic. And of course there was, you
know, the inevitable rebellion against that thinking.
So I think this started in the 70s actually.
And and then during the 80s there was a complete rebellion
and people started saying, well,no, you know, self defence is
brutal and quick and it needs tobe pre empted.
OK, yeah, I I can agree with that.
(24:56):
So and people started to do things that weren't in the
castle, like head butting your yeah, I remember 1 instructor
who advised spit at them first, spit in the eye and then head
butt them. And then and my thinking was,
well what's that got to do? You know, with the cattle, with
karate. Fortunately for me, I wasn't
training with this sense he or under him, you know, you know,
(25:20):
I, I, I held the grades to independently.
There's this person giving that advice, but I'm not, you know,
my disquiet with that was it. That's not anything to do with
the cater. And I always said, you know, if
that's what we're supposed to do, then the cater should start
with a head butt spitting, you know, the spitting action and a
(25:41):
head butt, because you should practise what you're going to,
what you need to apply. So we had the, you know, there
was a rebellion from that and then people decided to separate
sparring and self defence out. So, you know, they would do
several kinds of karate. They'd do, they do the cater,
they do the sparring and then they do the fixed drills, you
(26:01):
know, in a row. I, I never really understood why
you might practise the same block, you know, 50 times in a
row. I think that's fine for
beginners when they're learning.But you know, once you, you
know, I never understand seeing you dancer Dan grade black belts
it, you know, it's quite often done in a lovely setting, you
(26:22):
know, you know, on the beach or the sea or somewhere or you're
under a waterfall and the, and the, you know, they do 50 middle
level blocks. You know, why are they blocking
against 50 punches or no, It's training.
Training for what? What's the context?
You know, why on earth would youdo ever get so many, you know,
trained to do so many block? You know, it's well, it's just
(26:44):
it's just accepted. It's that people believe it.
It's training. So I'm going to do 50 of these
two three. Well, what what 4 endurance.
It's training. It's it's yeah, for beginners,
it's it's not a useful. You know.
Way of training and and it doesn't really reflect what's in
(27:05):
the Casa because if if you look at the Sanchez or the say San,
the Sancerdi or the then I had to let's go over the fence to
the Shuli Karate or the Shuling room.
There's cater in the order they're in for very good
reasons. Just to go back to the point
though, the, the the several types of karate that people
(27:27):
start doing is what they consider to be traditional, what
they consider to be sparring andwhat, and then what they
consider to be self defence. And there's nothing wrong with
that. And I know some instructors that
have taken that approach and very good instructors they are
and very, very fine kinetically they are indeed.
And those that understand what they're doing, no problem.
(27:50):
But unfortunately there are manyout there who don't really
understand how it's got like that.
And our business here is to explain or describe how it's got
like that. It's not really too to discredit
schools and teachers with that approach, it's just to make it
clear that what what it is that they are doing and what it is
(28:13):
that we are doing and what valuethat we what we understand what
value that could have to to to to other people.
So in, in in the 80's the idea of self defence, you know, it
kind of really picked up and andso that usually was based on
(28:37):
scenario based training. So, and that would be great from
people's perceived ideas of whatmight have someone comes up and
grabs you in a collar. So you do this or you do that or
someone, you know, someone comesup and chokes you from behind
though. Yeah, OK, well you'd have to be
quite, I'm not saying you couldn't get caught unawares,
(28:58):
but you'd have to be quite unaware to get to get in some of
the positions that you know. So Karataka are constantly
training timing and distance andgauging the difference between
their and them and themselves and an opponent.
And then suddenly for sake of their exploration of self
defence, they'll passively standthere with an arm out while
(29:19):
while an assailant comes up and grabs the hand.
You know, why aren't they reacting as normal?
How come they're suddenly allowing themselves to be
grabbed and it's because they'rejustifying their self defence
ideas. It's it's really simple as that.
And a lot of that, you know, really, you know, increased in
the 80s and 1980s and that the idea was well, you know,
(29:44):
Karachi's an art and and so it'sjust codified into a, into a
very dignified, elegant art, youknow, which really masks the
brutal reality of self. So here's a here's what we
really do in a fight and of course, what's lauded or what's
said to be effective in the fight.
Of course, as usual, saying aspiring bears virtually no
(30:07):
resemblance whatsoever to the catter.
But the key trick here is to tryand make any self defence moves
that you use. If you're if you're pursuing
karate, the trick is to try and make any self defence moves that
you use look like something in the catter.
And then it then it could be seeing that you are and that
your applications are are reallykarate and not sort of some
(30:30):
street fighting or or or or or violence, but in in in reality,
the self defence. So things like proactive and
they're going first basically had a real struggle initially
because the founder of ShottakanKarate had built his particular
(30:51):
karate on the notion of a, of a term called karate Nisenti nasi
Senti is, is is an attack or a hand.
Senti TE is a hand. So there is no first initiative
or no first attack with left. You know, all the students with,
you know, with the view that there must always be OK first a
(31:14):
block or to receive a force and that must proceed any kind of
counter. So a lot of karate was built on
this, this idea, this notion, Karate Nisenti nashi.
There is no initiative, no firsthand, no attack, which in itself
is actually a lovely concept. If you're looking at a moral way
(31:34):
of training, then that's that's,that's absolutely fine.
And we can see that reflected inFina Koshy's teaching, Fina
Koshy's teaching senses creationof tenocata.
But really, you know, if we're going to talk about civil, if
we're going to talk about policing or, or guarding or any
of the, any, any, any of the related crafts or policing in
(32:00):
general, you know, that's not it.
You know, proactivity is the, isthe key to be, you know, you've
got to grab the guy quickly. You know, you've got to deal,
deal with it. You can't sort of stand off and
politely wait for him to start swinging at you.
And in fact, you know, once a person gets underway with a,
what I would describe as a compound attack, commonly in
(32:23):
karate, you get a step forward and a punch and then the
attacker sort of stops and there's a block and a counter.
And that's fine. If you're in the, in the what I
call the Tenocata zone, when you're, when you're in that
structured zone for the the art of karate doe, the way of
karate, not karate, I don't knowcarelessly karate jutsu or the
(32:44):
technique of karate. If a compound attack is
delivered and it gets underway, in other words, the guy is up
and swinging, the, the whole jobis made.
It's a nightmare. The whole job is made much, much
more difficult as you're trying to cope with everything coming
in from every direction when thething should have been shut down
before it even started. And that really is the essence
(33:06):
of of of of of of the antique catter.
As Tom said earlier, shut that down before it starts.
There's no, you know, it's not atwo way St.
I suppose that goes against the romantic notion of the hero
fighting in a duel, that myth created from storytelling and
(33:26):
theatre. It's always the bad guy who
starts the conflict. Well, just to add to that,
actually, if I may, sorry to jump in there, but it's, it
just, yeah, it binged in my mindthat that is so ingrained.
And it is because everything that, you know, from childhood
(33:46):
onwards, everything that we watch or not everything, but
particularly for for people interested in combat.
And perhaps I might, if I'm allowed to say that in this day
and age for men, it it's, it's, it's in the site, deeply
ingrained in the cycle psyche. It's it's the the noonday sun.
(34:06):
It's the jewel in the sun. It's the pistols or the swords
or it's the it's always that conflict.
It it's a male fascination and Aand a fear that you have to face
the other guy and in it comes infrom.
They did also keep being reignedin mythology, isn't it that
mythology of the hero? Well, I think that the idea of
(34:29):
the jewel is mythologized, but I, I, I, I, yeah, I understand
what you mean. But I, I don't, you know, let's
take a great hero from Northern mythology.
One of my favourites would be the funnel, Anglo-Saxon Thor in
the Scandinavian, you know, in the accounts in, in the, in the
(34:49):
Thor doesn't really do much in the way of posturing around.
He just gets his hammer and goesand bashes the, the giant and
that's it. You know, there's, you know, in
the, in cartoons and all the rest of it.
You'll, you'll, you'll have him leaping around because it all
gets jumbled up and confused with, you know, it, it, it
(35:10):
always comes back to the sort ofthe, the Kung Fu jewel or the
karate jewel. But I go back to Thor.
He did. There's no preamble or posturing
or blocking and he just steps forward and bashes the bad guy
with a with his hammer. And that's the end of it, which
is kind of crudely what the Sai is doing.
You're just stepping in and shutting him down and as Thomas
(35:32):
says, leaving and pinning and bash with the pommel.
That's it. There's no, there's no give and
take and, you know, dodging backwards and ducking and and if
they're, you know, there is no ducking in the catter, there is
none of that. So yeah, I think we're.
But there's no blocking either. There's no blocking in any of
(35:54):
the antique forms. So what we the?
Forms that we work. Through.
There's no blocks that wouldn't be a counter.
That's a difficult one to tell the world.
There's no counters. Well, you know, there's,
there's, there's no ground grappling, but there's also no
blocks and there's also no counters.
(36:15):
And there's also there's there'snothing that you would find in a
duel or a match or or a piece ofchoreography.
I'm not saying that all that that there aren't forms of
choreography for the stage, because they're clearly there
are, but. In Kung Fu.
Systems and you know, it's been argued elsewhere, but in the
(36:39):
antique forms. If.
You know, staying with the ones we've used in example, so
Sanchez say San and San Saydi. Yeah, there's no there's no
grappling because you're dealingwith weapons in potentially
dealing with someone with a knife, but there's no rocks, no
counters, no choreography. It's yeah, I'm sorry to
(37:01):
disappoint Tom. You're.
Is that like you're? Talking about kobudo, I thought
we'd talk about karate. Now, Well, yeah, yeah, I.
Just throw something very very. Quick in, in that the the I
mean, Kabudo is the kind of runsparallel to karate in
(37:22):
particularly in Okinawa. What you find in the the main
Kabuto schools is, is long pieces of choreographed
duelling. And I would just from my
perspective in in Koderu and therate the research that Nathan
pioneered and we now go as a group that that area of martial
(37:44):
arts and Okinawa is nothing to do with the antique cater
research that we do. So yes, we're using the side the
iron truncheons, but they're from China and our approach to
the bow and the antique forms connected with that and the
Tampa are to do with China and not what was developed in
(38:07):
Okinawa in along parallel to karate.
So as you see the rise of sparring and and fixed Bhumite
and Qatar applications in karate, you also see those same
developments take place in Okinawa and weaponry which is
you know has its own modern course of development as well.
(38:31):
Now, Sir, I don't know if you want to jump.
On that, well, I think we've done it justice.
I think we, yeah, but I think we, we, we, we've done that
justice and it's certainly the last place we want to be in any
of these practises and applications is on the ground.
Why is why there's no. If we if we do find any ground
(38:51):
grappling, we will publish it straight away.
And if anyone does find an antique form that consists of
ground grapplings. Let us know it.
Over, I'd love. To see it?
Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah.
And that brings us to the end ofanother episode of Great Karate
(39:11):
Myths debunking the legends. Today we've established that
ground grappling is fundamentally absent from
Antique Karate Qatar, not by oversight, but by design.
We learnt that the core of classical Karate kata is about
proactive, pre emptive action, not a reactive exchange or a
(39:35):
duelling match. The forms were never intended
for ground fighting because their purpose was to deal with
armed opponents, making the ground the most dangerous place
to be. We appreciate you tuning in for
more episodes that challenge traditional martial arts
thinking. Please subscribe and share with
friends. We'll be back next time to
(39:57):
debunk another legend.
Welcome back to Great Karate Myths Debunking the legends.
Today we're tackling A fascinating question.
About a. Core concept in modern martial
arts ground grappling. We're asking where is the ground
grappling in antique karate Qatar?
Stick around as we break down why a weapon, a knife in the
(00:27):
life or death situation make ground fighting a very, very bad
idea. OK, so Nathan, where is the
ground grappling in Qatar? Yeah, I'm going to give.
I'm going to give you the extended long answer nowhere.
(01:00):
It's, it's not, it's not in the Katter.
Clearly it's it's not in the Katter, but you know, Karnataka
wearing Karate D uniforms and I'm wearing black belts.
If they are in fact and downgrades or black belts.
(01:21):
People are now doing it. Take people to the ground and
they're doing our it's been happening a long time.
I think that people like Mario Higon, that sense of the go Judy
Karate was was doing it. I don't know, in the 70s and
80s, you know, take a person to the ground and maybe foot suit
(01:41):
them and then put an arm bar on.They can do that.
They can do anything they like, but that's not in the cattle.
Some people have tried to so to to suggest that where in Kasanku
there's a movement where the practitioner sort of almost
kneel on the ground and is very low to the ground, but that's
(02:01):
somehow ground grappling. But that's examples of anything
like that are few and far between in the Qatar and they
don't exist at all in the Nahar Qatar, the Sanchin, the Seisan
and the San Serdi, which we cover in another caste, which
were the core Qatar for Nahar Karate and still extant in the
(02:23):
weight you do. We will also be covering the
fact that those cattle were, youknow, did crossover into into
the Megichojian senses Gojiri karate.
And we will, we will, you know, we will find later that those,
those cattle all came from all had the worm.
(02:47):
The, the core Qatar for Gojiru and the core Qatar for Waititu
came from the same Dojo. None of those Qatar, the three
I've mentioned or, or pretty much any of the others have any
kind of ground grappling. No, no, even the Nihanshin,
which we, we, we, which we've understood for coming up to 30
(03:08):
years, but we've understood is, is grappling, but it's not
ground grappling. There is no jiu jitsu, no
Brazilian type jiu Jitsu, no judo type grappling, nothing on
the ground in the traditional catter.
And that tells you something or should do if if you're
listening. Yeah, over to you, Tom.
(03:32):
There's a good a good place to start with this is the.
Premise. That we've understood about the
antique forms is that they're todo all to do with weapons and so
the last place you'd ever want to be either trying to use a
weapon or on the receiving end of a weapon is on the ground.
So it's it's just sort of it's foolish to think that you could
(03:53):
be effective on the ground whileusing a pair of side.
And we've, we've started to introduce the research on the
Weichi Sanchin, Seisan and Sansadiyuk, the three forms that
yes, and said the Nahate type karate and therefore using a
pair of PSI and there's nothing you would never be able to use
(04:16):
them on the ground and you couldn't be effective with them
on the ground. And so, so it's, it's just not
in there. It's that simple in it's a
completely different mindset from what you see today in
modern martial arts. There's this consideration that
to be a complete martial artist,you have to be efficient on the
ground and it's just not true. It just wasn't true then that
(04:40):
that that kind of thinking didn't didn't exist.
The idea of a complete martial artist is a kind of modern a
modern idea where you are good in all the ranges, you know,
punching, kicking, grab at throwing and, and ground
fighting and all the rest of it.The antique forms didn't emerge
(05:01):
out of that type of thinking. They emerged out of a function
of the form, which is to use a pair of PSI to trap, pin, press,
strike someone else armed with aweapon, they would be drawn to
deal with another weapon. So the most common weapon you're
going to come across is probablya knife.
(05:21):
And so the pair of PSI, you know, drawn ready to use by one
or two officers working togetheragainst against a knife, you
think the last place you're going to go if someone's got a
knife is on the ground because you're dead.
And considering a weapon, considering a knife eliminates
(05:45):
most modern ground fighting. I don't care who you are on the
ground, you give someone a knifeand you're you're mincemeat,
you're done. And and so it's just, it's not
there because it wasn't necessary.
It wasn't needed. If you ended up on the ground,
hopefully your colleague will bethere to the rescue.
Otherwise you're stuck. And that kind of highlights that
(06:09):
the Qatar don't really contain all the answers to everything
and nor should they. They're giving you a map of the
territory, fundamental core skills that then you take out
and hopefully gather enough experience absolutely to be able
to use them effectively, and fighting on the ground just
wasn't a consideration. Yeah, I I think the grappling in
(06:36):
ground fighting Fukova in a serious way with the advent of
the everyone knows this with themixed martial arts where we saw
the the punches and the kickers swiftly getting taken to the
ground and locked up. And I think, you know, some
martial artists just in my my view, were intimidated by that.
(06:59):
It was, you know, and, and it, it was considered to be brutally
effective. I mean, there are all sorts of
theories and conspiracies and ideas and about that it was
rigged and that, you know, the early, you know, I don't want to
go there. I don't know, can't prove it.
(07:20):
But ever since that whether it was or wasn't isn't the issue,
it's still, now, you know, there's still this groundwork,
this, this, this grappling on the floor.
And grappling has become synonymous with fighting on the
floor. And it if we look at my
hamptune, which is completely grappling, none of it is on the
floor. And that is the primary chorin
(07:41):
Uri or shurite kata. And it yes, it's grappling, but
the operative remains upright. You know, the whole throughout
the whole entire cater, yes, they put the, the, the person
who's being grappled, that person is on the floor, but the
operative is not on the floor. And that is, you know, that
(08:02):
illustrates the, the whole, the essence of the, of the Shoren
Rieu approach, the operative, the, the, the person in control
is in control and his upright isnot on the floor.
You know, that's, that's but theperson who is being subdued is
(08:23):
on the floor. And when they're, you know, get
up from the floor, they are, they are kept locked.
And, and, and that is the basis of, of the whole approach to
Shorenreu karate. So this taking someone to the
floor and going to the floor yourself is, well, quite
frankly, it's a nonsense as far as karate kata are concerned.
(08:48):
Yeah, I think you highlighted a point there where we're talking
about just things that are worlds apart in the a grappling
match is, is an agreement. It's taking place under
controlled conditions and, and, and, you know, has ruled, but
under, yeah, it's under an agreement that no one's going to
(09:09):
run in and open whoever they can.
No one's, the referee isn't going to jump on top of anyone
or, or throw some glass in. And that's, excuse me, I, I,
I've. Been to your local?
Coming around. I've I've been to your local.
Power, yeah, but the you know, it's easy to be drawn in by the
(09:35):
immense athleticism of the top grapplers.
I mean, the competitions are amazing and the athletes are
amazing and, and it's the same with the UFC.
The athletes are absolutely incredible.
But it's a world apart from the,the psychology and the, the
thinking of the antique forms, which is nothing to do with any
(09:56):
kind of agreement matched by dual or something that's going
to go on for a long period of time.
The, the, you know, when you're dealing with someone with
weapons, the longer you're engaged with that person, the
greater the risk. The risk just goes through the
roof exponentially. If you're trying to stop someone
(10:17):
with a knife, the longer it takes you, you know you're going
to really run the, if you're notalready cut, the likelihood is
you might be and it could potentially be fatal.
And so there's a massive risk involved in the use of the sigh
and the other antique forms we're talking.
About life or death risk. Really, and I don't want to
(10:39):
sound dramatic or like, oh, you know, this is something better
or special. It's just I'm highlighting that
it's completely different. So once you draw the sign, the
idea is to use them as quickly as you can to disarm, to engage
and disarm the person so that they're, they're no longer a
threat. And the idea of that being any
(11:01):
kind of reciprocal backwards andforwards, he's going to slash
and I'm going to dodge. Oh, I'm going to parrot.
It's all crap. It's nothing to do with that
whatsoever. It's go 1st and overwhelm as
quickly as you can and get the job done.
And so there's a very different psychology that emerges in those
(11:23):
ways of, in those different types of practise and, and
martial skills. And, and that's what we're
talking about with the antique forms.
We're not talking about, you know, backwards and forwards.
And and so when you see Qatar applied in a way that it kind of
looks like a jewel or there's going to be some somebody throws
(11:45):
a punch and there's a block and there's a second punch comes in
or there's kind anything that starts to have 1234 you, you're
locked into that modern martial artist approach of, you know,
there's going to be these interactions like you see in an
MMA fight. I'm not saying they're easy or
simple, because they're not. But that's not, that's not what
(12:08):
we've found and understood to betrue of the antique forms.
And this huge emphasis on going first, you know, being proactive
pre emptive if possible and proactive all the way through,
overwhelmingly proactive to dealwith that rapidly escalating
(12:30):
risk and, and and so on. It's very, very different.
And so, so something else you mentioned just there that when
you said it's not a duel as well, and that understanding
that it's not one to one, it's it's many to one or two to one,
it is a civil arrest And and it's it's, you know, the
(12:50):
officers don't go. Around on their own, no.
And it's the same with the. Palace.
Guards and the you know you'd beworking in a team.
So we mentioned this before reversing, reversing the modern
approach. So Katabunkai being dealing with
multiple opponents, you fight off 1, then you fight off the
next one for the antique forms. You reverse that it's you and a
(13:13):
few other people taking on one. There's one person with a, with
a blade is so deadly, they don'tneed any training.
They're going to be deadly. You know, you've got a sharp
knife you it's, it's very, very serious.
And so there's a consideration in those antique forms, from my
(13:34):
understanding, particularly of the Seisan and the Sanseria,
which demonstrates working in unison with others.
And none of this and to kind of stay on topic, none of this has
anything to do with grappling. And there, there's, there's no
concept of wrestling in these forms because you're not in any
(13:55):
kind of a match, you're not hustling in a way that you would
be fighting for a grit or positional dominance in a
grappling match. It's, it's not of it at all.
It's it's a world of 1. The other person is not going to
be trying to do to you what you're trying to do to him.
Because absolutely. Yeah.
(14:17):
Not 2 trained athletes or sportsmen at all.
It's it's, you know, leasing and.
I mean, you know, no assumption can be made.
Oh, look, the bad. It's not like a Kung Fu movie
where you know, where you know, where the attackers all
conveniently know gung Fu and the hero knows gung Fu and they
Duke it out, they slug it out, you know, until the good guy
wins and the bad guy is defeated.
(14:38):
You know, and conveniently the bad guys always know all of the
the gum fu. And so you get this tic tac
picture pass a, you know, exchange of, of, of, of, of
techniques, which is couldn't befurther from, from, from the
truth. You know, you're, you're,
you're, it doesn't mean that the, the arresting officers
didn't, you know, ever come across somebody who had skills.
(15:00):
But there's the assumption or this idea that it could be
connected with the battlefield where obviously the other person
is equally armed. As, you know, I think one of the
last weapons anyone with any common sense would want to take
onto a battlefield is a pair of sight.
It's got no cutting edge. Then what can you do?
You, you could poke somebody with it and if they're if
they're wearing armour, you're going to have a bad day.
(15:22):
You know, you're going to find that, you know, was there a
razor sharp sword swings down and, you know, cuts your arm
off. You're going to realise you've
gone to war with the with the wrong gear.
You know, it's, it's not a battlefield, a piece of a tool
at all. But the, the, the idea that
there's a, a reciprocal fight and that the other person might
(15:44):
have some moves is it is, it is quite frankly wrong.
It's, it's, it's, it's wrong. And you've raised a very
important point about the dual because that's the context in
which many martial arts are seen.
And and as I said, well, a lot of that comes from from films.
You know, there's always the, you know, I, you know, who's no
(16:05):
one's ever going to forget the first time they I saw for the
ending, everyone sees Enter the Dragon with, with Bruce Lee.
No one's ever going to, you know, forget that, you know, and
it's, it's based on a series of duels.
The whole film is you know, people and, and you know, and,
and it's just assumed that that's, that's what how martial
arts unfold. That's what you're doing.
(16:26):
Once you understand the context of policing, then it's, you
know, the police officer today doesn't these days wherever
doesn't necessarily expect who might get someone who's done a
bit of karate. But you're not going to get the
the sort of incredible sequencesof, of, of, of martial arts
occurring between someone who's being arrested and, and, and
(16:49):
police officers. And as we've touched on before,
anyone that's seen arrests. Yeah, the van opens up our pile
a number of officers, you know, take down who they whatever the
target is. And it doesn't matter what fancy
moves the, the bad guy has, you know, he's going to get detained
(17:12):
and go to gaol, you know, so youknow, the context of retirement
approach of a sporting approach and of, of an agreed combat a a
deal. That's the term we've used
because it may like, you know, pistols at dawn or rapiers or
something. Couple of gentlemen having an
argument over gambling or, I don't know, whatever.
(17:35):
And, and, and, and agreeing to new fight or, or people in a
sporting contest. And in completely wrong in terms
of the the context that the Qatar the the what the cattle
were designed for I think. Just.
(17:57):
Adding to that, Nathan, the. That's the sparring is actually
a pretty useless mode of practise to to go alongside the
antique forms, precisely for thereasons you've just explained.
And there's this. The idea of a jewel.
Or sparring or a match or anything like, it's very, very
(18:19):
hard to break out of that mindset, I think.
And it's even trying to, you know, when you're trying to
understand the movements in the,in the right context, it's very
easy to slip into, well, if somebody does this, then this.
If you're in that point, if somebody does this, then this in
(18:40):
terms of looking at an antique form, you've already wandered
back into that duelling, duelling territory.
And I think the intention in theway that the antique forms were
to be used in that very in the applied function, if you like,
(19:02):
is it would be really quick and hopefully over quickly.
So you staying with our example of using a pair of Sai.
I mean, the Sai are iron truncheons.
You know, that's what they are. It's a pair of trunches.
They're for bashing and, and andhitting with the pomble.
If someone's armed with a knife,once you've drawn them, if you
(19:23):
haven't been able to back the knife out of their hands
quickly, you know, the the risk it gets goes exponentially up
through the roof of being injured.
But if you find yourself in a situation where you're blocking
and countering, you're in that duelling territory, then it's
anyone's fight and you're, you've stepped outside the what
(19:46):
the antique forms are showing you and, and, and showing how to
navigate the territory, how to go first here.
You know how to, to stay proactive, how to continue to
overwhelm in what's essentially A chaotic environment.
And I think that. Something that has come up a lot
(20:08):
is that just because the antiqueforms have got these brilliant
functions, there's no, there's no guarantee of the outcome.
And I think that's one of the big problems in the modern
bunkai, modern application approach to forms is that
there's this kind of assumed outcome and so that you kind of
(20:29):
win and you kind of stop. I I don't think that's very
helpful at all. And I don't think that's what
the antique forms demonstrate. They don't assume the outcome
that you're going to win or thatit's going to be effective.
It's, it's, it's trying to give you some leverage in a very
chaotic situation. Oh, OK.
(20:50):
Well, so we've established it's not a due and that's that's
critical to understanding the capital.
But there are lots of practitioners.
So if we go back to when, if yougo back to the the 60s and 70s,
there was not a lot of application around of, of
so-called bunkai or interpretation or application.
(21:13):
However you want to translate the term.
If we go back to the 60s and 70s, there was very little of
it, but it it grew. One saw it really begin to
appear in the early 80s and through the 80s.
And there were radical voices out there careful of the use of
(21:34):
that word, but not, I'm not talking about religious or
political, I'm talking about karate only.
But there were radical voices out there or, or, or or new
thinking. And I know I was, I was involved
in that new thinking that, you know, this multiple opponent
block strike best exemplified inNakiyama Sensei's best karate
(21:59):
series. It was a whole series of of of
of books. I forget the publisher might
have been Kurantia demonstratingkarate applications to the to
Shuktiken Qatar. And at that time Nakayama Sensei
was the chief instructor to the Japan Karate Association.
(22:20):
And these books tried to lay down some applications to the
Qatar, but they were quite strange in the sense that, you
know, the defender would be stood, you know, in, in in his
ready position and and the attackers would come at him, you
know, 1 to 4 attackers, sometimes more, but usually any
anywhere from 1:00 to 4:00. And the defender would move off
(22:45):
on angles resembling the cater and do a a block or a double
block. And it used to be strange
positions and like the cater. But no one had to wonder, why
did you do? Why did you do an augmented, you
know, a forearm block that's supported against a particular
punch as opposed to a conventional forearm block with
(23:06):
one arm? I remember asking a very
prominent sense that once in the80s.
And his response was that if theattack was particularly strong,
you would augment your block, which made no sense to me at all
because I immediately asked him,how do you know?
How do you know? How can you measure by vision
the the strength of an attack? And the answer I got back was,
(23:29):
well, some of it would be depending on their, on your, on
their demeanour and their gait and their physical size.
So here we go. So in other words, if the chap
big and mean looking, get ready to use your augmented block.
And if he's just an average Joe,you know, you can get away with
a, you know, a conventional middle level forearm block or
(23:51):
whatever it is made absolutely no sense to me.
But here we were presented with a whole series of of books that
that showed that you might move off to the right and and defend
and then counter one opponent. Meanwhile, but like the films
really meanwhile, you know, the other guys usually was guys we'd
(24:11):
be there patiently waiting for their they'd be queuing up for.
So the next one would then attack you, maybe from the left.
So you you can and do a defensive manoeuvre and counter
him and then the third one and these guys would all sort of go
one at the time, you know, very polite, lovely, you know, so
(24:34):
completely not non realistic. And of course there was, you
know, the inevitable rebellion against that thinking.
So I think this started in the 70s actually.
And and then during the 80s there was a complete rebellion
and people started saying, well,no, you know, self defence is
brutal and quick and it needs tobe pre empted.
OK, yeah, I I can agree with that.
(24:56):
So and people started to do things that weren't in the
castle, like head butting your yeah, I remember 1 instructor
who advised spit at them first, spit in the eye and then head
butt them. And then and my thinking was,
well what's that got to do? You know, with the cattle, with
karate. Fortunately for me, I wasn't
training with this sense he or under him, you know, you know,
(25:20):
I, I, I held the grades to independently.
There's this person giving that advice, but I'm not, you know,
my disquiet with that was it. That's not anything to do with
the cater. And I always said, you know, if
that's what we're supposed to do, then the cater should start
with a head butt spitting, you know, the spitting action and a
(25:41):
head butt, because you should practise what you're going to,
what you need to apply. So we had the, you know, there
was a rebellion from that and then people decided to separate
sparring and self defence out. So, you know, they would do
several kinds of karate. They'd do, they do the cater,
they do the sparring and then they do the fixed drills, you
(26:01):
know, in a row. I, I never really understood why
you might practise the same block, you know, 50 times in a
row. I think that's fine for
beginners when they're learning.But you know, once you, you
know, I never understand seeing you dancer Dan grade black belts
it, you know, it's quite often done in a lovely setting, you
(26:22):
know, you know, on the beach or the sea or somewhere or you're
under a waterfall and the, and the, you know, they do 50 middle
level blocks. You know, why are they blocking
against 50 punches or no, It's training.
Training for what? What's the context?
You know, why on earth would youdo ever get so many, you know,
trained to do so many block? You know, it's well, it's just
(26:44):
it's just accepted. It's that people believe it.
It's training. So I'm going to do 50 of these
two three. Well, what what 4 endurance.
It's training. It's it's yeah, for beginners,
it's it's not a useful. You know.
Way of training and and it doesn't really reflect what's in
(27:05):
the Casa because if if you look at the Sanchez or the say San,
the Sancerdi or the then I had to let's go over the fence to
the Shuli Karate or the Shuling room.
There's cater in the order they're in for very good
reasons. Just to go back to the point
though, the, the the several types of karate that people
(27:27):
start doing is what they consider to be traditional, what
they consider to be sparring andwhat, and then what they
consider to be self defence. And there's nothing wrong with
that. And I know some instructors that
have taken that approach and very good instructors they are
and very, very fine kinetically they are indeed.
And those that understand what they're doing, no problem.
(27:50):
But unfortunately there are manyout there who don't really
understand how it's got like that.
And our business here is to explain or describe how it's got
like that. It's not really too to discredit
schools and teachers with that approach, it's just to make it
clear that what what it is that they are doing and what it is
(28:13):
that we are doing and what valuethat we what we understand what
value that could have to to to to other people.
So in, in in the 80's the idea of self defence, you know, it
kind of really picked up and andso that usually was based on
(28:37):
scenario based training. So, and that would be great from
people's perceived ideas of whatmight have someone comes up and
grabs you in a collar. So you do this or you do that or
someone, you know, someone comesup and chokes you from behind
though. Yeah, OK, well you'd have to be
quite, I'm not saying you couldn't get caught unawares,
(28:58):
but you'd have to be quite unaware to get to get in some of
the positions that you know. So Karataka are constantly
training timing and distance andgauging the difference between
their and them and themselves and an opponent.
And then suddenly for sake of their exploration of self
defence, they'll passively standthere with an arm out while
(29:19):
while an assailant comes up and grabs the hand.
You know, why aren't they reacting as normal?
How come they're suddenly allowing themselves to be
grabbed and it's because they'rejustifying their self defence
ideas. It's it's really simple as that.
And a lot of that, you know, really, you know, increased in
the 80s and 1980s and that the idea was well, you know,
(29:44):
Karachi's an art and and so it'sjust codified into a, into a
very dignified, elegant art, youknow, which really masks the
brutal reality of self. So here's a here's what we
really do in a fight and of course, what's lauded or what's
said to be effective in the fight.
Of course, as usual, saying aspiring bears virtually no
(30:07):
resemblance whatsoever to the catter.
But the key trick here is to tryand make any self defence moves
that you use. If you're if you're pursuing
karate, the trick is to try and make any self defence moves that
you use look like something in the catter.
And then it then it could be seeing that you are and that
your applications are are reallykarate and not sort of some
(30:30):
street fighting or or or or or violence, but in in in reality,
the self defence. So things like proactive and
they're going first basically had a real struggle initially
because the founder of ShottakanKarate had built his particular
(30:51):
karate on the notion of a, of a term called karate Nisenti nasi
Senti is, is is an attack or a hand.
Senti TE is a hand. So there is no first initiative
or no first attack with left. You know, all the students with,
you know, with the view that there must always be OK first a
(31:14):
block or to receive a force and that must proceed any kind of
counter. So a lot of karate was built on
this, this idea, this notion, Karate Nisenti nashi.
There is no initiative, no firsthand, no attack, which in itself
is actually a lovely concept. If you're looking at a moral way
(31:34):
of training, then that's that's,that's absolutely fine.
And we can see that reflected inFina Koshy's teaching, Fina
Koshy's teaching senses creationof tenocata.
But really, you know, if we're going to talk about civil, if
we're going to talk about policing or, or guarding or any
of the, any, any, any of the related crafts or policing in
(32:00):
general, you know, that's not it.
You know, proactivity is the, isthe key to be, you know, you've
got to grab the guy quickly. You know, you've got to deal,
deal with it. You can't sort of stand off and
politely wait for him to start swinging at you.
And in fact, you know, once a person gets underway with a,
what I would describe as a compound attack, commonly in
(32:23):
karate, you get a step forward and a punch and then the
attacker sort of stops and there's a block and a counter.
And that's fine. If you're in the, in the what I
call the Tenocata zone, when you're, when you're in that
structured zone for the the art of karate doe, the way of
karate, not karate, I don't knowcarelessly karate jutsu or the
(32:44):
technique of karate. If a compound attack is
delivered and it gets underway, in other words, the guy is up
and swinging, the, the whole jobis made.
It's a nightmare. The whole job is made much, much
more difficult as you're trying to cope with everything coming
in from every direction when thething should have been shut down
before it even started. And that really is the essence
(33:06):
of of of of of of the antique catter.
As Tom said earlier, shut that down before it starts.
There's no, you know, it's not atwo way St.
I suppose that goes against the romantic notion of the hero
fighting in a duel, that myth created from storytelling and
(33:26):
theatre. It's always the bad guy who
starts the conflict. Well, just to add to that,
actually, if I may, sorry to jump in there, but it's, it
just, yeah, it binged in my mindthat that is so ingrained.
And it is because everything that, you know, from childhood
(33:46):
onwards, everything that we watch or not everything, but
particularly for for people interested in combat.
And perhaps I might, if I'm allowed to say that in this day
and age for men, it it's, it's, it's in the site, deeply
ingrained in the cycle psyche. It's it's the the noonday sun.
(34:06):
It's the jewel in the sun. It's the pistols or the swords
or it's the it's always that conflict.
It it's a male fascination and Aand a fear that you have to face
the other guy and in it comes infrom.
They did also keep being reignedin mythology, isn't it that
mythology of the hero? Well, I think that the idea of
(34:29):
the jewel is mythologized, but I, I, I, I, yeah, I understand
what you mean. But I, I don't, you know, let's
take a great hero from Northern mythology.
One of my favourites would be the funnel, Anglo-Saxon Thor in
the Scandinavian, you know, in the accounts in, in the, in the
(34:49):
Thor doesn't really do much in the way of posturing around.
He just gets his hammer and goesand bashes the, the giant and
that's it. You know, there's, you know, in
the, in cartoons and all the rest of it.
You'll, you'll, you'll have him leaping around because it all
gets jumbled up and confused with, you know, it, it, it
(35:10):
always comes back to the sort ofthe, the Kung Fu jewel or the
karate jewel. But I go back to Thor.
He did. There's no preamble or posturing
or blocking and he just steps forward and bashes the bad guy
with a with his hammer. And that's the end of it, which
is kind of crudely what the Sai is doing.
You're just stepping in and shutting him down and as Thomas
(35:32):
says, leaving and pinning and bash with the pommel.
That's it. There's no, there's no give and
take and, you know, dodging backwards and ducking and and if
they're, you know, there is no ducking in the catter, there is
none of that. So yeah, I think we're.
But there's no blocking either. There's no blocking in any of
(35:54):
the antique forms. So what we the?
Forms that we work. Through.
There's no blocks that wouldn't be a counter.
That's a difficult one to tell the world.
There's no counters. Well, you know, there's,
there's, there's no ground grappling, but there's also no
blocks and there's also no counters.
(36:15):
And there's also there's there'snothing that you would find in a
duel or a match or or a piece ofchoreography.
I'm not saying that all that that there aren't forms of
choreography for the stage, because they're clearly there
are, but. In Kung Fu.
Systems and you know, it's been argued elsewhere, but in the
(36:39):
antique forms. If.
You know, staying with the ones we've used in example, so
Sanchez say San and San Saydi. Yeah, there's no there's no
grappling because you're dealingwith weapons in potentially
dealing with someone with a knife, but there's no rocks, no
counters, no choreography. It's yeah, I'm sorry to
(37:01):
disappoint Tom. You're.
Is that like you're? Talking about kobudo, I thought
we'd talk about karate. Now, Well, yeah, yeah, I.
Just throw something very very. Quick in, in that the the I
mean, Kabudo is the kind of runsparallel to karate in
(37:22):
particularly in Okinawa. What you find in the the main
Kabuto schools is, is long pieces of choreographed
duelling. And I would just from my
perspective in in Koderu and therate the research that Nathan
pioneered and we now go as a group that that area of martial
(37:44):
arts and Okinawa is nothing to do with the antique cater
research that we do. So yes, we're using the side the
iron truncheons, but they're from China and our approach to
the bow and the antique forms connected with that and the
Tampa are to do with China and not what was developed in
(38:07):
Okinawa in along parallel to karate.
So as you see the rise of sparring and and fixed Bhumite
and Qatar applications in karate, you also see those same
developments take place in Okinawa and weaponry which is
you know has its own modern course of development as well.
(38:31):
Now, Sir, I don't know if you want to jump.
On that, well, I think we've done it justice.
I think we, yeah, but I think we, we, we, we've done that
justice and it's certainly the last place we want to be in any
of these practises and applications is on the ground.
Why is why there's no. If we if we do find any ground
(38:51):
grappling, we will publish it straight away.
And if anyone does find an antique form that consists of
ground grapplings. Let us know it.
Over, I'd love. To see it?
Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah.
And that brings us to the end ofanother episode of Great Karate
(39:11):
Myths debunking the legends. Today we've established that
ground grappling is fundamentally absent from
Antique Karate Qatar, not by oversight, but by design.
We learnt that the core of classical Karate kata is about
proactive, pre emptive action, not a reactive exchange or a
(39:35):
duelling match. The forms were never intended
for ground fighting because their purpose was to deal with
armed opponents, making the ground the most dangerous place
to be. We appreciate you tuning in for
more episodes that challenge traditional martial arts
thinking. Please subscribe and share with
friends. We'll be back next time to
(39:57):
debunk another legend.
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