June 10, 2025 • 50 mins
Are modern karate styles true systems or just collections of forms? 🥋 In this episode, we dive deep into the crucial distinction between karate "styles" and "systems." Discover why most modern karate groups are considered mere compilations of kata, lacking the integrated, functional purpose of true systems. We explore the origins of this distinction, from the haphazard introduction of Chinese boxing to Okinawa to the creation of the Pinan kata, which we argue were developed for school PE rather than practical martial application.Join us as we challenge common assumptions about karate techniques, including the controversial origins of kicks like the roundhouse and the often-misunderstood purpose of "kime" (focus). We reveal how external influences and a shift towards recreational practice have diluted the original, functional intentions of karate kata. If you've ever wondered why your karate forms look the way they do, or questioned the effectiveness of certain training methods, this episode will provide a refreshing and insightful perspective. Tune in to understand the core principles that define a true martial system!
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(00:05):
Welcome to Great Karate Myths, Debunking the Legends podcast
that dares to question everything you thought you knew
about traditional martial arts. Today we're diving deep into a
topic that's often misunderstood, yet absolutely
crucial to understand the very essence of karate.
Our episode today is titled Karate Style versus System, Lost
(00:27):
Functions and Forgotten Purpose.Have you ever wondered why there
are so many different karate stars?
Or what the true intention behind those intricate kata
really is? To kick us off, Nathan is here
to distinguish between a karate style and a system.
(00:50):
Well, I've I've tried in the past to distinguish between a
karate style and a system. If if we look at well, the
subject is Koduru. Koduru is the system.
It can be seen as a style because most karate groups are
identified as styles. But Koduru is different in the
sense that it's the three kata that comprise the the training
(01:13):
are fused into a system, an integrated system.
And it's quite difficult to create or sustain a system if
for example, too many catter areincluded and metaphorically one
became one becomes unable to to see the wood for the trees, so
to speak, and techniques designed to be used reflexively
(01:35):
become unnecessarily duplicated.So using a three catter system,
for example, allows of practitioners to avoid
duplicating techniques unnecessarily.
And regarding the actual applications, obviously no one
is encouraged to go out and practise real civil arrest
(01:56):
anymore any more than archery enthusiasts are encouraged to to
shoot people. Arguably most postmodern karate
styles are not necessarily systems.
By contrast, the conservative sort of Southern Jung Chung
styles of Kung Fu are are systems, but the the term system
(02:16):
really precludes hazard or eclectic compilation of of
character. For instance, Yun Chung and the
use of the Chinese single edged broadswords in a similar way to
the PSI, potentially with more deadly results have three simple
but progressive Quan. And this is a subject that we'll
cover in great detail later and obviously not today.
(02:38):
Traditionally there are a limited number of forms and
that's my point here. And if we contrast ring Yun
Chung's three Quan or three forms and it's set of wooden man
drills with 50 plus Quan for example, of modern Tanglang or
Tonglong playing mantis Kung Fu that originally and he had one
(03:01):
form 1 kwan and and he include here karate styles that teach
anywhere from 12 to 50 kasa and and these don't necessarily
constitute systems. They are rather collections of
of Qatar. I'll just quote briefly Nagamino
Shoshi who said in his tales of Okinawan great masters, this
(03:23):
this is what he says. I first became convinced that
shurite also evolved from Chinese boxing native to Fujian
province. Consider the principles of
Chinese boxing being haphazardlyintroduced to limited areas,
subjected to socio cultural circumstances unlike that of any
(03:45):
other time and place, and cultivated by men of different
insights. And it was in fact related the
case that the foundations for the new eclectic karate
traditions that haphazardly amassed many and often unrelated
cattle caused all of the confusion that we now have.
So I I would say that's an accumulation of 50 kata other
(04:09):
than for research purposes is tomiss the .1 should dig a small
hole, go very deep. That's my preamble.
And one of the reasons the styles exist is because they're
built around the people that collected the kata.
They're not systems that were put together with Marshall skill
(04:30):
laws. And, and it sort of speaks to
the fact that the kata arrived in Okinawa without any functions
intact. And that's, that sets, that sets
the scene for creating styles. I mean, should there really be
styles in the 1st place? Probably not, because the cats
of functions are all completely different and don't belong
(04:51):
together. So it's that misunderstanding.
And that's not a criticism of anyone or, or the circumstances
in which the functions were lost.
Certainly, you know, by the timeI got back to work an hour, they
were. But it's it's it points to the
fact that if the functions arrived intact with the kata,
there wouldn't be any styles, There'd still be just systems,
(05:14):
because the functions provide the what, the jobs, the context,
and the and when and where they should be used.
And people people who could be forgiven for wondering which cat
belong with together or with each other.
So somebody could you know, doesChinto belong with with Nihantin
or those are the sorts of questions that could arise.
(05:35):
So because karate has come down to us in a in a non systematic
way, it it it's understandable why postmodern students would
have a difficulty in in working out which cat belong together,
particularly as in in modern Stasi have been sort of lumped
together, so to speak. Shottakan Karate has 27 cat
(06:01):
rowing with with no final reasonas to why, say, many are
included or how they actually coalesce together as a
systematic way. What's the process used for?
Is it just the mere accumulation, like hobbyists
collecting things? I suspect that it is.
Actually. I suspect it that's what it is.
(06:22):
It's also, you can see a lot nowof on seminars where more than
one catheter is taught on a seminar.
So you get a bit of passai with a little bit of nihanshi and
blow drills that allow you to move in between 1 interchange.
And that's again, those same assumptions that they're all for
the same thing and that, you know, you could use them all
(06:44):
interchangeably. But our approach and what we've
found says otherwise, which is that the original functions are
all quite different and it's very hard to mix a Tomfurkata
with some Chinese broadswords orsome civil restraint and with
sigh or something like that. So yeah, it's they don't belong
together. And and once those original
(07:06):
functions are really restored it's it's hard to justify why
you would practise them all together, or to even name the
style from a collection like that.
Yes, indeed, such an approach leads to something in the
postmodern period that I I wouldI've referred to in the past as
the the could be theory, the thinking and, and the statements
(07:28):
are it could be this. It was.
And and so we can, we can, as you say, we, we take snippets,
we take a a bit from Pasai and it looks like this.
So we'll do that and then we'll join that with a movement from
Kushenku or, or, or Tinto or Nihansen.
And because it could be this or it could be that and, and, and
(07:50):
who are these people, by the way, who are so dogmatic that
claim that they, they seem to Mohansen does, for example, even
though we spent lifetimes on on the subject.
But the point I'm making is it'sthe could be this or could be
that in which this sort of mix and match.
And so something that might looklike a headlock is, is is is
depicted as such. But the movements that lead up
(08:13):
to that in catha and the movements that follow it in the
sequence of the catha are not explained, not contextualised
and not joined together and, andnot given any proper context
whatsoever. And this is what I label the
could be. Theory.
An example of that that's quite famous is from Itosu with the
creation of the Penan Cathars. So you have all of these forms
(08:38):
arrive from bits and pieces as well, and with no functions or
explanation for them. And they're kind of repurposed
and remashed into the into the pin at the five pin and cutters,
which he taught without any applications.
And there's so many theories about what they're for.
(08:59):
But yeah, that kind of fits intothat could be these bits and
pieces all could go together in this different way and they
could be reaped and they can't, you can't take Trinto and mix it
with Kusang Ku and you can't mixKusang Ku with any of the other
with, with safe sand. They don't belong together and
they don't mix together well, which is, you know, it could be
(09:21):
argued and we'll probably talk about the pin and in much more
depth later on, but they're a mess.
And that's what you end up with if you, if you don't have any
functions intact and you, you make kind of sweeping
assumptions about the forms themselves.
And there's lots of questions with, with a with a cat or as
well to be answered. Well, you know, you need to be
(09:43):
able to explain the sequence andyou need to be able to explain
why. Are there more techniques in the
right hand on the left? Why are some techniques repeated
more or why, you know, there arelots and lots of questions about
that that more, you know, are important to answer and not just
ignore. So yeah, that's.
(10:04):
You think? You think this has come about?
Because function has been confused with technique.
Because we talk about function and overall function.
What? What is the function?
And then within those functions there are techniques.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean we spoke about that last
time with the yeah, with when I talked about that, you know, the
(10:25):
striking, but that the kicks andthe the strikes from Kusanku
don't exist outside the overall function, which is to to disarm
a pole alarm. And yeah.
So I think you'll see techniquesas such.
But if you don't know what the overall the underlying function
is of it, what was the intended purpose of collecting techniques
(10:48):
together in, in that particular order, in that particular way,
you're just kind of wandering around blind really.
But what's happened in that is that it's become Alma.
It's become a free for all wherever anyone can say, well,
it's, it could be for this. It could be like, like like
Nathan's just said, it's the could be.
And that's become a response to not understanding the original
(11:13):
functions or not even attemptingto have a go at finding them
out. And I've heard a lot from lots
of people to that say, you know,particularly on forums when that
used to be popular 20 years ago,that the functions are lost.
And so we can never know what the forms really were for and
things like that. But I think that's a really crap
(11:35):
excuse to not bother. And so we we've lost it.
It's like if you found a book with an ancient language in you
wouldn't go Well, I don't, I can't read that, so I'm just
going to make up the meaning andturn it into whatever I want it
to be. You know you, you, you.
You have a go, don't you? And people do, they work hard at
(11:56):
it. And then it's the same thing.
It's a it's a language of movement.
And there are lots of, you know,embodied aspects that can really
help to unravel the context and function preserved in those
kata. Yeah, it's really a it's really
a search for that Rosetta style,isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, indeed. And Nihanshin was.
(12:18):
I don't want to speak for Nathanhere, but that was the Rosetta
Stone really, wasn't it? It.
Would would appear to, it seemedso, yes.
On the note of disparity in Qatar in terms of then not being
sort of techniques, it's interesting to see that Karachi
is divided into Qatar Keon and cumulative and the the, the, the
(12:39):
so the the cat or other fixed forms.
The key on are the so-called boats basics and the commuter is
the sparring. And as we've spoken about in so
many on so many occasions in thepast, the three are only very
loosely related in the sense that they don't directly defend
them each other. So the the the the key on seems
to be a an attempt to make a setof basic other quite
(13:03):
incomprehensible set of, of movements or or series of in the
various kata. Oh, that's one example would be
the dominance of right legged kick and right legged knee raise
in Matsubayashi Sharon Roux karate doe, which is of course,
the precursor of many of the Sharon Roux, which would like to
become Shah Tikan type of style Shah Tikan and wadaroo.
(13:25):
There's an imbalance. As I say, I've listed all of
these painstaking read the number of knee raises and
so-called kicks and they're they're unequal.
They're not done equally on the left and the right.
Something that the so-called thebasics or key on attempts to
adjust by marching up and down and doing everything on one side
and then on the other repeatedly, which isn't evident
(13:45):
in the catha, returning them to the Penan Catha, which are known
in the in the very popular globally followed style of
Shutican. Those catha were renamed by
Finicos Egyptians as a hyen Catha and called peaceful minds.
Looking at them, examining them,we understand within the Koduru,
we didn't follow those kata, notout of any disrespect for Ikosu
(14:11):
uncle the creator, but he created those kata ostensibly,
arguably between 19105 and 19108, which in the scheme of
things is sort of only sort of, I don't know, 50 years before I
was born. So it's not exactly a long time
ago, not that antiquity lends any particular credibility to a
(14:34):
cat or a form, but because whoseforms?
What he this was a teacher who created forms with no
demonstrable, no evidence to demonstrate that he, for
example, knew what the Nihantiandid.
So here we have a a founder who's creating catter who
doesn't seem to have been able to either assimilate or pass on
(14:59):
the functions of the catter thathe'd already learnt which which
certainly made me think, how is he qualified to create these
these these these cattle? Certainly he gave no significant
that we're aware of indication that he understood Kusanku
chinto Pasai. So these cater that we always go
on and on about. These are the antique cater.
(15:21):
This is the Canon of Sorin Rue or shurite karate.
Obviously, I'll leave aside Sanchin, Sisan and Tanquerio
from the Nahar school and just for purposes of this
conversation concentrate on the Shorin Rue or the Shurite cata.
But the founder or rather the architect of the of the Penang
(15:42):
cata doesn't seem to have demonstrated any understand any,
hasn't passed on any applications or he has not
demonstrated that he understood the functions of the existing
cata prior to creating some more.
And in fact, there's considerable evidence in place
to suggest that Itasio Anko created the Penang series for
(16:02):
Okken and domestic high school consumption.
So almost as a form of PE and training for young, young young
people, children in in in a school setting, which throws
into question any practical sortof Marshall or otherwise
application. And historically there are no
cohesive or codent applications to the PNN catters and therefore
(16:24):
to the the hian catters. So I just reiterate, I re chase
not to follow these catter simply because they were
constructed by somebody who doesnot seem to have been able to
have demonstrated a full understanding of the
applications of the existing Qatar, namely Nihanshin,
(16:45):
Kusanku, Chinto and Pasai. Those, and those are antique
forms, were created with something in mind, and there was
an original intention for those physical manuals to be put
together. As Nitin just points out,
there's there's no evidence thatthere was any intention for
those collections of those cata to serve any particular
(17:06):
function. There's no reports of detailed
explanations for the Hinan formsat all.
Indeed, and some researchers in the past and this this took
place in the 80s and 90s, particularly in the 90s, but
tried to suggest that the, the, the peanuts were from an older
series donated in China in the Channons.
(17:27):
So I, you know, like I can't find anything to substantiate
that there. And there's no evidence for the
Channons or the Peanuts anywherein China that I mean, I haven't
thought, I haven't travelled thewhole of China.
Quite frankly, it's would be an impossible task.
But there's no documentary evidence or otherwise of the
so-called Channons. The whole Pinon slash Kiyan kata
(17:50):
series originates with Itosu. We know this historically.
We know this from the records. We know this from the writings
of karate luminaries and greats such as Nagamine, Shoshin and
others. Itosu is the is the creator of
the of the Pinon Pata and we don't follow those in within
Kodiru for the reasons I alreadygave.
(18:11):
Just while I remember on the note of Nagamine Shoshim in the
last episode, I made an error. I do apologise to, to everyone
when I was citing the chief instructor of the Japan Karate
Association, the former chief instructor Nakayama Masatoshi,
and I refer to him as Nagamine Shoshin.
I do apologise for that. I, I, I, I made a mistake.
(18:34):
So it was Nakayama Masatoshi wasthe former chief instructor of
the Japan Karate Association andNagamine Shoshin since was
actually the founder of Matsubayashi Shore in Ulu Karate
dough, just for clarity. Just following on just another
quick point on the the the peanut catter in as we're we're
(18:56):
in that right now, the the peanut catters sort of seem to
be seem to start the trend of catter being created and
modified heavily. And by the time get you from the
Koshi brings karate mainland Japan, he goes, but he creates
(19:17):
the 10 no Qatar with his son, which is which is better
representation of karate basics.I mean the Pinon Qatar's are a
pretty poor representation of basic what became Qihon in
karate and there was no representation of that in Qatar.
So the kitchen Fruna Koshi creates 10 no Qatar and I
(19:38):
believe there is an intention tomake two more of that type of
cater. And he also created the Taikoku
caters to represent as representations of the of the
Quichon. So there's there's a cater being
created and modified heavily andstill, but by the time the
tender cater is created, it's closer to an intended function.
(20:01):
They needed a representation of the Chaon and then the the the
Ipon kumite, the Sanborn kumite and the Gohan kumite.
Were the applied tenocatter. So at least the Tenocatter had
an intention, and it had an application and an interactive
training practise that came withit, whereas the the Penans just
(20:22):
don't quite cut it. Absolutely it is the case.
It is the case that the FunokosiTichen sensei and Yoshitaka Tigo
Tigo to use his other name Waka sensei, the young sensei.
They promoted the whole idea of basic karate through a series
that the tenor kata was, which is not really followed by by
(20:45):
mainstream schools any longer. But it's rare that you get the
down block, reverse punch, middle level block, reverse
punch, upper block, reverse punch, sword hand block, reverse
punch sort of seems to be systematically laid out.
And that led to the the basics that ETI became the practise for
all of the files were irrespective.
So not just the Shottakan school, but the Waderu and even
(21:07):
the Gojiru has a similar set of key on the basics of, of, of, of
stepping forward and punching and blocking that that is, is
just ubiquitous within karate. All styles do it.
Strangely, Kung Fu never really did that.
It has of late. So a lot of modern approaches
to, to Chinese Kung Fu. Now take that same approach that
(21:28):
was in fact created by finger koshi jitsu and sensei.
Now I just want to give a timeline for this because what
what we're seeing is so, so Finakoshi Jitsu and Sensei
introduced karate to Japan in 1921.
So this is sort of the time when.
So this is just shortly before my, my father was born.
So within my lifetime. It's not, it's not this is not
(21:50):
these are not the annals of history.
This is not the deep, dark distant past.
And the eternal cattle wasn't finalised until really it was
being put into place in the 20s and 30s and when my parents were
born and my grandparents were thriving and alive.
This is a relatively modern, it's not postmodern, but it's a
(22:11):
modern training and, and not in any way can well it cannot be
considered as in, in my view anyway, as a quote, authentic
Catter. It's a really a Keon Catter and
and later the name Keon Catter was used to describe the
Taikyoku series, which the greatkarateka Henry Plea, the
Frenchman who who really took karate to Europe.
(22:34):
He was very much a European pioneer of karate and a man very
passionate about karate, wrote the rather interesting in a
book. I always enjoyed karate beginner
to black belts and the old blackand white photographs and a very
interesting book. But he, he took at his own
expense and engaged a number of Japanese karate experts to
(22:55):
increase his own knowledge and spread his love and passion for
karate throughout France and Europe.
But he, he spoke of 6 Kaikyoku Qatar.
I can't find any other sources for those 6, but I'm I'll take
him, I'll take his word for it. Most karate groups, certainly of
the Chodokan persuasion, only practise the first one, which
(23:17):
they call Kyon Qatar, which is Kaikyoku Sudan.
But I believe there are actuallyor there were 6 and and this is
an example of the ever expandingrepertoire of karate as it grew.
So from the Itosu's creation of the Penan and Finocosi Titian
senses modification of the antique Catherine by the time we
(23:39):
get to the 1936 publication by Finocosi Titian Senses of Karate
Dokiohan, that's if we'd seen itbefore in Donaemon in 2122.
But by 36 we can see heavily modified versions of the Casca
antique catter that still were, I would say carefully here, were
(24:01):
more conscientiously carefully preserved in for instance, the
Matsubasi of Nagamine, Shoshi and and others.
The cata changed quite considerably in their Psotocan
format. So we see a big change in the
antique cata in their presentation, very little in the
way of functions or applications.
And then we see the addition of five Pinan cata from Itosu Anku
(24:25):
and six Taikyoku cata. So we've got at least another 12
cata being added, plus the key cata, the antique cata being
heavily modified. It's no wonder that the karate
got a bit untidy. Untidy in the sense that the
purpose and meaning of the Cassie applications were even
(24:46):
further from being displayed or understood as this stuff, as the
material just expanded and expanded.
Then of course, the addition of,of kicking, of an inordinate
number of kicking techniques that it's interesting.
I, I always, I remember asking some very senior karate where
the Roundhouse kicked the mawashi Yuki, where that
actually occurred in the the Roundhouse kick, the tanning
(25:08):
kick, because it's not in, in any of the original cartoon.
In fact, 11 very senior Suddekanmaster, I think it was Kanazel
Ascenci actually, as far as I recall, could a round house kick
in one of the cat, I forget which one, but none of those,
the back turning kick, spinning kicks and none of those were in
(25:29):
the cattle. Of course they came to
prominence. We all remember.
No we don't all it depends on one's age.
But I can remember those kicks really come into prominence with
the 1972 film starring Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon, which we
all devoured and we've never seen anything like it.
And then all these amazing acrobatic spinning kicks, which
everybody wanted to, you know, we wanted everyone was
(25:51):
interested and of course they weren't in the cattle,
particularly when you look at a cattle like in the weight of the
Naha series, the Sansi in the Cezanne, the sun said you
there's no back turning kick. There's no round kick packed,
no, no kick at all. There is a, there are, I think
in the, well, not I think I knowin the Cezanne and Sunseri
(26:13):
there, there are elementary front kicks, which I think Tom
would be able to explain very well.
But they, they are basic. I mean, I can too.
They are basically, you know, they're, they're, they're kicks
used in conjunction with the, with the weapon.
But none of those, the, the kicks occurred were in the
katter. Suddenly they became very
prominent in, in karate. You know, without wishing to be
(26:35):
rude, and I don't mean to be intensely rude, the kicks in
karate were very good for business, very good for
business. They attracted audiences.
They were great in demonstrations as as you know,
for for people in non non non Chinese or Japanese cultures.
This whole idea of kicking was, was something completely new and
(26:56):
different. You know, if you were raised in
the West on a staple diet of of boxing and wrestling and maybe
certainly by the the 70s some judo, then then see these kicks
that, you know, they were impressive as youngsters, we all
wanted to do and we did all do them.
We were, we were leaping around and I think very, very popular
(27:20):
was the flying sidekick, Tory Yoko Geri.
Yeah, side fight, jumping, flying sidekick, something like
that. They were very, very and the
scissor kick really made popularby the the character Rose John
Saxon Genia, the the American act, the late American actor and
terrific. We had a lovely meeting meeting
(27:41):
with him at Semi in 2006 but he he made the the scissor kick
popular in as the character Roper in Into the Dragon.
So we were all busy doing cycle kicks and flying sidekicks and
trying our best to get back turning kicks.
And of course that led to us allstretching out and doing box
splits and doing everything we could to ease up our hip sockets
(28:04):
so we could produce these outrage kicks.
That was a lot of fun and but nothing to do with the character
and nothing to do with the actual tradition.
That was my background when I first did Lalgar.
It was all that flying kicks, spinning kicks and lots of
stretching exercises. Did loads of that.
But could you do? Could you?
(28:25):
I could, yeah, I, I could do them.
I could do box splits. I could do all of that because I
was quite supple. Trouble is, it wasn't very
effective when you come up against inspiring the someone
who's about 15 stone and no, no,no.
So good for show, but as you say, not good for you, your hips
and your chants. I think all of that stuff speaks
(28:47):
to the you know, it's style, isn't it, because style can kind
of wander off in any direction it it it wants to.
With the show to Kanda pretend no Katter and the Ipon Sanborn
go Hong Kumites is leaning back into being system again, and
sparring takes it back into style.
(29:09):
A a tussle there between the two.
But when the functions of the I know we go on and on and on
about the original functions, but when they're intact, you
can't really wander off into style.
You you you kind of down by the function and and and that kind
of that's what the practise is and style's quite recreational
as well. It's when karate's become
(29:31):
recreational as opposed to beingthose cater being part of
someone's job or role in society, whether it be military
or or civil or or or whatever. That's a very different approach
when you would have to do that as your job as opposed to, you
know, learning to do a spinning kick is recreational because
(29:51):
there's, there's no, you don't ever need it ever.
No, unless you choose to engage in that way.
Well, having been at a concert in the 80s and seeing a huge
fight kick off, I can assure younobody used spinning kicks.
They didn't. It was just horrible.
Yeah. That's quite a staggering of the
pin and Carters. I didn't know that.
(30:13):
That stuff that is basically made-up with no applications.
These repurchased bits of the antique forms, the pin ands are
evidence that the functions didn't arrive through the forms
in Okinawa. Yeah, the only one that tries to
argue that they were passed downbehind closed doors, the
original functions, there's no evidence for that.
(30:33):
What the evidence is completely contrary to that.
It's that there were no functions passed down because
you couldn't chop up and splice them together to create those
sort of the finance sort of Frankenstein monster type forms,
aren't they? They're they're bits and pieces
that that shouldn't. You can't take a bit of we Sanku
(30:54):
and mix it with a bit of Chinto.It doesn't work like that.
Those manuals are for for for jobs, for for roles.
Yeah, go on next in. Yeah.
Thank you, Tom. Thank you.
Thank you. The mere existence is is is
evidence of of the sheer creation of the choreography
created by Ethosu Anku. So the very fact that they seem
(31:15):
to be ordered and they go to theleft and then they go to the
right seems to suggest that there's there's some there's
some kind of order, but on closer examination, there isn't.
And if you're going to turn to the right and and do a mig every
but you never do that to the left.
You have to question that. Now, I'm not saying that's wrong
because we can find that in the antique films, but within the
antique forms you can discover what why they're structured the
(31:38):
way they are. With the Pinans, it's impossible
because they are just mere choreography.
They are literally routines thathave no functional legitimacy.
That's quite a thing to say really, but people have spent a
lot of time trying to really their gymnastic choreographed
sequences with no, no actual function or purpose whatsoever,
(31:58):
which is why we we didn't give them, we don't practise them is
could. Suggest as well that the idea of
there even being an original function never even made it
Okinawa. So is it the idea that the
functions were lost may simply have been here's some Kung Fu
and you know, and you can interpret it, do with it what,
(32:19):
however, whatever you like, who knows?
But it kind of suggests that that might have been the case
because original functions, it was seldom ever talked about.
Seldom ever discussed. I mean, I know from my own
personal history of Mordo, the idea of there being an intended
purpose to a catter was never talked about.
(32:40):
I'd never even considered it until I met Nathan.
And so it makes me wonder if that was something that would
never even perhaps have occurredto a tosu, that he couldn't do
whatever he wanted. Well, of course he could do
whatever he wanted. He could take these antique
forms and splice them together to make something new.
The the idea of there being intended functions may never
(33:02):
have even made it that far. Indeed, it makes us.
This is why our thinking in within Koderu is quite alien to
so many people, because many people don't think that way.
And of course it's, it's normal for us.
But that's because of our experience with the Nihantin,
which Shania reminded me this very day as one of the most
(33:23):
maligned or misunderstood of Qatar, which is something that
he suggested we put more effort into addressing, which I suspect
we will. But it's because of that kata
and what it does and also what it doesn't do that that we've,
we've got this unique way of thinking that is so uncommon in
the karate world that actually these, these kata have very
(33:45):
specific functions. And just to be, just to be clear
here, I'll just talk about two kata for or three actually,
let's do 3 Tom's understanding of Kusanku.
That's a good no, Hansen, which is where it all began for us.
And the original sanction, they are all incredibly clear as to
what they do. And they're not.
If could be and maybe could be not at all.
(34:08):
They are very, very specific in their intentions and their
functions and the mechanical procedures, exactly what they're
about and what the creators purposed.
And that way of thinking is so unusual simply because, yeah,
the the accepted norm for karate.
It can be this, it can be that, as I said earlier, and you can
interpret it what people do, just their interpretation.
(34:31):
How can individuals claim they've got the right version,
the truth? That's nonsense.
But it isn't nonsense because I can't speak to the proper
applications of the opinion cater, as I've made clear,
because there aren't any becausethey weren't made by someone
that used the same formula or used the same way of thinking or
working as the creators of the antique Cater not in the same
(34:54):
category at all. The creative, the peanuts had no
idea. As I've said earlier, I could be
upset people by say who does Johnson think he is saying that?
I do say that I can't find any evidence that Mister Itosu or
Itosu sensing knew what the antique kata did.
If he did he a he wouldn't have needed to create the peanut
kata. It would have been unnecessary.
(35:15):
It wouldn't have been necessary and he certainly would have
topped wouldn't have topped and changed bits.
You can't blend a bit of a tonnefor cattle with a bit of US
movement to take the a bow staffaway from someone or a movement
to retain your own bow staff. You wouldn't feel who's all of
those in a in a series of five cattle that that's the seem to
have a chronological order, but they don't.
(35:37):
What they have a choreographed sequences that people can learn
and remember is mnemonic devices, but they're not
constructed on the same. They appear to be on the same
pattern as the antique cata, butI will say emphatically they are
not. And there's absolutely no
Chinese prototype because you can see that the Pinans are
(35:57):
spliced together from other antique forms.
And now that the kind of the functions of those forms are
kind of becoming unravelled, youcan see that there's no way that
there was a prototype. And if there was, it's nonsense.
If there was a prototype back inChina, it's that someone else
has spliced together those antique forms without knowing
(36:18):
what the function was, that there's no evidence whatsoever.
They're pick and mix forms. And Itosa, as Nathan's already
discussed, has lived recently enough.
Farther, if there was an original function intended, he
certainly didn't tell anyone. And if you're going to say that
there, if someone would still argue that the PNN's are, you
(36:41):
know, had an original function or an effective method or a
system, the burden of proof is on them.
They're going to have to explainwhy Nihan Shi, Kusanku, Chinto
and more have been spliced together in that way.
They're going to have to speak to that and and evidence it
because the evidence is is is against it forms being anything
(37:01):
more than as Nathan already described as a, you know,
gymnastic routines for the school system in Okinawa.
And one of the ways to one of the ways that this has been
perpet the style of rate rather than a system.
So if we look at the weighty series Santi and say San
Santiado, that's a system. If we look at young Chung,
(37:22):
commonly called ring Chung, I'm not going to worry about
pronunciations because I'm not anative Cantonese speaker.
If we look at ring Chung, that'sa system.
Karate difficult. We will say, well, shorter cans
a system. It's a collection.
It's very eclectic, the seven kata and growing Wateru 12
katter 15 sorry and growing not now no, They tend to stay pretty
(37:43):
much the same go guru 12 katter.No disrespect to any of those
styles or their teachers, but they're not They purport to
beauty systems, but that's questionable.
What generally happens with the presentation of Katter is
stylistic. So shorter can will do the
katter in deep stances. Wateru will do the much higher,
(38:03):
lighter and quickest stances andthose become what I've seen is
allegedly the stylistic nuances of those styles.
So whatever is considered to be lighter and faster and more
evasive and Sutter can is heavy and and Gojiru is very strong
and deep and powerful. Yeah, pretty much at the end of
the day, when you look at the kata, the way they obfuscate
(38:25):
cover up things is to just do the kata very fast or very hard
or to emphasise different thingsin different places.
This is where you get the which we'll cover in in future
episodes. The famous Kimai, if you look at
the Sotakai practise of the lateHarada Mitsuki sensei,
personally, I found him very influential.
(38:46):
He influenced me was quite profoundly when I was young.
He was upgraded to go down 5th then by directly by Fiona Koshi
Jitsu Sensei. But he was really basically in
part a student of Egami Siguru. And Egami Siguru created a whole
new soft kind of karate, flexible and flowing, which I
suspect was quite profoundly influenced by obviously by
(39:09):
Marios Aikido. Again, this is all early, early
stuff. I think receiver sense he
demonstrated by Kuda originally in a department store in Tokyo
and I think as late as 1936. But how how in a sense is soft
strata guy had no Kimi, no focus.
(39:31):
So there was no tensing at the end of a technique which I think
most conventional karate stars would would not find them
suitable, wouldn't agree with. So we have this thing called
Kimi, which is the tension at the end of a technique, which is
pardon parcel of Main Street stream karate, particularly in
in Kiel, in basics practise and in Qatar practise, though you
(39:53):
don't really tend to see it so much inspiring, which is always
a lot more fluid and doesn't have quite as much of that.
But the the tension, the focus, the tensing of the muscles in a
in a the end of a technique in kinetic is unique to that type
of mass light. You don't find it, for instance,
in in boxing or wrestling or jiujitsu or judo.
You do find it in some gung fu systems.
(40:15):
Notice the the so-called hard styles.
But what we've postulated withinthe Coderu corpus of study and
body of knowledge. Is that this key may actually
comes from the weapons and that the focus, the tensing is there
to stop the weapon bouncing out of your hand on impact.
It's a direct, it's the result of weapons forms that are done
(40:39):
in sequences, which is the origin of so many of the cata
that we constantly discuss on these on on on on these
podcasts. And that tensing is not
necessary in a flowing style or in boxing or in, in, in, in, in
those sorts of kickboxing, for instance, MU Thai and the rest
of those sorts of styles don't obsess with the the the
(41:01):
so-called focus, the Kimae. They don't bother with it hardly
at all. Karate does and so does a lot of
Kung Fu. This is further evidence for the
weapons base of the cata that wewe talk about.
But even something as fundamental of that seems to
remain unknown in the corpus of the study of of within the, the
transmission of the pen and cataor for that matter, most of the
(41:24):
cata, it's unknown. So even that the fundamental
reason for Kimae seems to have been unknown and and and and and
and why the the way that that this is talking around is is to
do the the cata fast, hard with lots of kimae, lots of focus and
guttural breathing and all sortsof things that make it the whole
(41:45):
practise look very manly or sorry, I don't mean to be
sexist, but to look really toughand very martial.
And you don't find that kind of a flashy display and you know
the you know the fighting for in, for instance, I give a
return to Muay Thai in kickboxing.
You just don't find it. But there will be some who argue
that Kim A provides the focus and power to inflict damage that
(42:08):
the intended target. Does Kim A on a punch add to the
effectiveness of your punch, or is it throwing your body weight
through your arm and fist, as indeeply into the target as you
can? What makes a punch effective?
And you know, you do need to grip tightly on the weapons.
(42:28):
So you do need that Kim a momentbecause you can't grip the
weapon tightly as hard as you can all the time.
Otherwise you know you're not going to be able to move very
well. So there's a there's that
tension between moving and manoeuvring the side, for
example, into wherever it needs to be.
And then the Kim aids tighten whether it's going to be to
impact or to create leave bridgeand pressure.
(42:51):
So once you know what the Kim isfor and perhaps play around with
it and experiment with it, how is it then justified?
There's not the justification falls to us to they work to
argue why people you go on usingit.
Jack Dempsey didn't worry about him.
You know, the professional boxers hit much harder than
(43:11):
generally speaking than people that performing Oyzuki or
reverse punch and stuff then they're not concerned about.
OK, there's a bracing in the body which is different bracing
in the body on him to land the punch or something like that is
a different thing. And sometimes it's argued that
the Kimae is is is kind of like that, but it's not.
It's the is the the way that it's done in Qatar traditionally
(43:36):
is is to Brae is to to tighten the grip around a weapon.
Yeah, I get that. It's.
Like hammering a nail. Yeah.
Grip a hammer. I do.
We're holding the hammer really softly.
I do remember. I can remember watching a guy
preparing for ABA area belt on the punch bag and he's a big guy
(43:56):
practising hooking combinations on it and he did not do any
chamet and every single punch hethrew buckled that bag and it
was a full length bag, No, no chamet.
But in the karate, because it's become so performative, because
it hasn't got the function, the performative has been developed
(44:16):
to plug the void. Isn't it left behind?
So Kusain, I mean, there's, you know, you look at the world
class, the the world champions in Qatar performing Kusain Kur.
It's, it's a very dynamic performance with lovely sharp,
crisp movements and all the restof it.
It doesn't, it doesn't, it's nota representation of the function
(44:37):
of the form that's been experienced and then embodied
into, you know, absorbed into a Qatar practise.
It's it's something that's become completely performative
and the exaggerations that make it more and more performative.
And Kimi looks good in the ghee.If you take the ghee off and do
the cutter without the ghee, theKimi feels a bit silly You.
(45:01):
Don't get the crack of the ghee.No, no, no, it's rubbish.
Didn't they used to? Didn't they used to supply a
particular weight of ghee just to get a better crack out of it
than he did? I remember it.
We all knew that a good, a good,a good crack and wear a
heavyweight gear because you've got a terrific crack and you
(45:24):
never got a good lightweight gear because the cotton was too
soft. Yeah, Kim Kim ages, but it
looked if you see someone doing it without a gear on it, it
looks a bit odd, yeah. Having spoken of then having a
panel or a group of seniors who run the the so-called style, the
(45:45):
fact that they agree on a numberset number of catter it makes a
style, yes, doesn't make a system.
So it always makes me chuckle when I hear people talk about
certain styles as a system. You know how on earth you can
have a system, the 27 cat. I've no idea how you can
assimilate that many cater in a practical way is is beyond me.
(46:08):
You know, certainly I've had a lifetime of friends that have
tried to do that and all they can do is practise separate
pieces. I've got a very dear friend who
is and a lifelong he, he, he, hemastered both branches, the
shottiken and the Goju. What he does is just concentrate
on the limited number of kata. He understands that you, you
(46:31):
know, instead of trying to practise 27 Zodiacan kata and
and 12 Goju kata, he understandsthat there's no point in in
trying to do that. So he's just let them go as
experience and and my point is acollection of of cata does not
make a system. The Cata that you do have need
(46:52):
to be integrated together and function together in a
syncretical way in a synthesis. You need to function together.
That will create a system. But a mere collection of cata
does not constitute a system. And that was the point.
That was the point under discussion.
Without going into the etymologyof of the word system, just to
(47:13):
keep it simple, you could. It could be argued that a
systematic way of doing something constitutes a system.
I would say that for a system tobe functional, it has to be
integrated. So just so so, we mustn't
confuse set of rituals or or repeated behaviours.
No disrespect to you know, if I suffer from a bit of OCD, that
(47:36):
doesn't make me a systematic person.
And I'm not, I'm not admitting to OCD or denying OCD.
I'm simply or criticising OCD. Millions and millions of people
have those sorts of experiences.It doesn't make us systematic.
It just means that we do things in a repetitive way and doing
something in a repetitive way doesn't necessarily constitute a
(47:58):
system. So, you know, a good way of
quick way of looking at system would be a computer system.
A computer to have the software and hardware, the integration of
those that to produce the outcome that you want when you
use a computer. So we can then quite sensitively
talk about computer systems. And that makes sense.
(48:19):
But if you've got a pile of junk, half of it's not plugged
in, half of it doesn't work. Loads of tunes and valves and
electrical bits and wires and you know, we've got a big
collection of it of electronic stuff, but it's, that doesn't
make it a system and it is, doesn't make it functional.
And that brings us to the end ofanother enlightening episode of
great karate myths. Debunking the legends.
(48:41):
Today, we've explored the fascinating and often
contentious distinction between karate styles and true systems.
We've learned how the absence oforiginal functions led to the
proliferation of diverse styles,and how influential figures like
Pitosu Anko repurposed elements into forms like the Pinot
cutter, which were arguably intended more for physical
(49:02):
education than Marshall application.
We've also touched on the evolution of techniques,
including the relatively modern introduction of kicks like the
Roundhouse, and questioned the performative aspects of
practises like Kimme, suggestingit's origins lie in weapon based
sports. It's clear that understanding
the original integrated purpose of Qatar is key to unlocking the
(49:24):
true depth of karate. As we've discussed, a mere
collection of forms, no matter how systematically performed,
does not constitute A functionalsystem.
Thank you for joining us on thisjourney of discovery.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and
review Great Karate Myths and Legends on Spotify or wherever
you listen to your podcasts. The sport helps us continue to
(49:47):
explore and challenge the narratives of martial arts
history. Join us next time as we continue
to debunk the legends and uncover the truth behind the
techniques. Until then, keep questioning,
keep learning, and keep trainingwith purpose.
Welcome to Great Karate Myths, Debunking the Legends podcast
that dares to question everything you thought you knew
about traditional martial arts. Today we're diving deep into a
topic that's often misunderstood, yet absolutely
crucial to understand the very essence of karate.
Our episode today is titled Karate Style versus System, Lost
(00:27):
Functions and Forgotten Purpose.Have you ever wondered why there
are so many different karate stars?
Or what the true intention behind those intricate kata
really is? To kick us off, Nathan is here
to distinguish between a karate style and a system.
(00:50):
Well, I've I've tried in the past to distinguish between a
karate style and a system. If if we look at well, the
subject is Koduru. Koduru is the system.
It can be seen as a style because most karate groups are
identified as styles. But Koduru is different in the
sense that it's the three kata that comprise the the training
(01:13):
are fused into a system, an integrated system.
And it's quite difficult to create or sustain a system if
for example, too many catter areincluded and metaphorically one
became one becomes unable to to see the wood for the trees, so
to speak, and techniques designed to be used reflexively
(01:35):
become unnecessarily duplicated.So using a three catter system,
for example, allows of practitioners to avoid
duplicating techniques unnecessarily.
And regarding the actual applications, obviously no one
is encouraged to go out and practise real civil arrest
(01:56):
anymore any more than archery enthusiasts are encouraged to to
shoot people. Arguably most postmodern karate
styles are not necessarily systems.
By contrast, the conservative sort of Southern Jung Chung
styles of Kung Fu are are systems, but the the term system
(02:16):
really precludes hazard or eclectic compilation of of
character. For instance, Yun Chung and the
use of the Chinese single edged broadswords in a similar way to
the PSI, potentially with more deadly results have three simple
but progressive Quan. And this is a subject that we'll
cover in great detail later and obviously not today.
(02:38):
Traditionally there are a limited number of forms and
that's my point here. And if we contrast ring Yun
Chung's three Quan or three forms and it's set of wooden man
drills with 50 plus Quan for example, of modern Tanglang or
Tonglong playing mantis Kung Fu that originally and he had one
(03:01):
form 1 kwan and and he include here karate styles that teach
anywhere from 12 to 50 kasa and and these don't necessarily
constitute systems. They are rather collections of
of Qatar. I'll just quote briefly Nagamino
Shoshi who said in his tales of Okinawan great masters, this
(03:23):
this is what he says. I first became convinced that
shurite also evolved from Chinese boxing native to Fujian
province. Consider the principles of
Chinese boxing being haphazardlyintroduced to limited areas,
subjected to socio cultural circumstances unlike that of any
(03:45):
other time and place, and cultivated by men of different
insights. And it was in fact related the
case that the foundations for the new eclectic karate
traditions that haphazardly amassed many and often unrelated
cattle caused all of the confusion that we now have.
So I I would say that's an accumulation of 50 kata other
(04:09):
than for research purposes is tomiss the .1 should dig a small
hole, go very deep. That's my preamble.
And one of the reasons the styles exist is because they're
built around the people that collected the kata.
They're not systems that were put together with Marshall skill
(04:30):
laws. And, and it sort of speaks to
the fact that the kata arrived in Okinawa without any functions
intact. And that's, that sets, that sets
the scene for creating styles. I mean, should there really be
styles in the 1st place? Probably not, because the cats
of functions are all completely different and don't belong
(04:51):
together. So it's that misunderstanding.
And that's not a criticism of anyone or, or the circumstances
in which the functions were lost.
Certainly, you know, by the timeI got back to work an hour, they
were. But it's it's it points to the
fact that if the functions arrived intact with the kata,
there wouldn't be any styles, There'd still be just systems,
(05:14):
because the functions provide the what, the jobs, the context,
and the and when and where they should be used.
And people people who could be forgiven for wondering which cat
belong with together or with each other.
So somebody could you know, doesChinto belong with with Nihantin
or those are the sorts of questions that could arise.
(05:35):
So because karate has come down to us in a in a non systematic
way, it it it's understandable why postmodern students would
have a difficulty in in working out which cat belong together,
particularly as in in modern Stasi have been sort of lumped
together, so to speak. Shottakan Karate has 27 cat
(06:01):
rowing with with no final reasonas to why, say, many are
included or how they actually coalesce together as a
systematic way. What's the process used for?
Is it just the mere accumulation, like hobbyists
collecting things? I suspect that it is.
Actually. I suspect it that's what it is.
(06:22):
It's also, you can see a lot nowof on seminars where more than
one catheter is taught on a seminar.
So you get a bit of passai with a little bit of nihanshi and
blow drills that allow you to move in between 1 interchange.
And that's again, those same assumptions that they're all for
the same thing and that, you know, you could use them all
(06:44):
interchangeably. But our approach and what we've
found says otherwise, which is that the original functions are
all quite different and it's very hard to mix a Tomfurkata
with some Chinese broadswords orsome civil restraint and with
sigh or something like that. So yeah, it's they don't belong
together. And and once those original
(07:06):
functions are really restored it's it's hard to justify why
you would practise them all together, or to even name the
style from a collection like that.
Yes, indeed, such an approach leads to something in the
postmodern period that I I wouldI've referred to in the past as
the the could be theory, the thinking and, and the statements
(07:28):
are it could be this. It was.
And and so we can, we can, as you say, we, we take snippets,
we take a a bit from Pasai and it looks like this.
So we'll do that and then we'll join that with a movement from
Kushenku or, or, or Tinto or Nihansen.
And because it could be this or it could be that and, and, and
(07:50):
who are these people, by the way, who are so dogmatic that
claim that they, they seem to Mohansen does, for example, even
though we spent lifetimes on on the subject.
But the point I'm making is it'sthe could be this or could be
that in which this sort of mix and match.
And so something that might looklike a headlock is, is is is
depicted as such. But the movements that lead up
(08:13):
to that in catha and the movements that follow it in the
sequence of the catha are not explained, not contextualised
and not joined together and, andnot given any proper context
whatsoever. And this is what I label the
could be. Theory.
An example of that that's quite famous is from Itosu with the
creation of the Penan Cathars. So you have all of these forms
(08:38):
arrive from bits and pieces as well, and with no functions or
explanation for them. And they're kind of repurposed
and remashed into the into the pin at the five pin and cutters,
which he taught without any applications.
And there's so many theories about what they're for.
(08:59):
But yeah, that kind of fits intothat could be these bits and
pieces all could go together in this different way and they
could be reaped and they can't, you can't take Trinto and mix it
with Kusang Ku and you can't mixKusang Ku with any of the other
with, with safe sand. They don't belong together and
they don't mix together well, which is, you know, it could be
(09:21):
argued and we'll probably talk about the pin and in much more
depth later on, but they're a mess.
And that's what you end up with if you, if you don't have any
functions intact and you, you make kind of sweeping
assumptions about the forms themselves.
And there's lots of questions with, with a with a cat or as
well to be answered. Well, you know, you need to be
(09:43):
able to explain the sequence andyou need to be able to explain
why. Are there more techniques in the
right hand on the left? Why are some techniques repeated
more or why, you know, there arelots and lots of questions about
that that more, you know, are important to answer and not just
ignore. So yeah, that's.
(10:04):
You think? You think this has come about?
Because function has been confused with technique.
Because we talk about function and overall function.
What? What is the function?
And then within those functions there are techniques.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean we spoke about that last
time with the yeah, with when I talked about that, you know, the
(10:25):
striking, but that the kicks andthe the strikes from Kusanku
don't exist outside the overall function, which is to to disarm
a pole alarm. And yeah.
So I think you'll see techniquesas such.
But if you don't know what the overall the underlying function
is of it, what was the intended purpose of collecting techniques
(10:48):
together in, in that particular order, in that particular way,
you're just kind of wandering around blind really.
But what's happened in that is that it's become Alma.
It's become a free for all wherever anyone can say, well,
it's, it could be for this. It could be like, like like
Nathan's just said, it's the could be.
And that's become a response to not understanding the original
(11:13):
functions or not even attemptingto have a go at finding them
out. And I've heard a lot from lots
of people to that say, you know,particularly on forums when that
used to be popular 20 years ago,that the functions are lost.
And so we can never know what the forms really were for and
things like that. But I think that's a really crap
(11:35):
excuse to not bother. And so we we've lost it.
It's like if you found a book with an ancient language in you
wouldn't go Well, I don't, I can't read that, so I'm just
going to make up the meaning andturn it into whatever I want it
to be. You know you, you, you.
You have a go, don't you? And people do, they work hard at
(11:56):
it. And then it's the same thing.
It's a it's a language of movement.
And there are lots of, you know,embodied aspects that can really
help to unravel the context and function preserved in those
kata. Yeah, it's really a it's really
a search for that Rosetta style,isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, indeed. And Nihanshin was.
(12:18):
I don't want to speak for Nathanhere, but that was the Rosetta
Stone really, wasn't it? It.
Would would appear to, it seemedso, yes.
On the note of disparity in Qatar in terms of then not being
sort of techniques, it's interesting to see that Karachi
is divided into Qatar Keon and cumulative and the the, the, the
(12:39):
so the the cat or other fixed forms.
The key on are the so-called boats basics and the commuter is
the sparring. And as we've spoken about in so
many on so many occasions in thepast, the three are only very
loosely related in the sense that they don't directly defend
them each other. So the the the the key on seems
to be a an attempt to make a setof basic other quite
(13:03):
incomprehensible set of, of movements or or series of in the
various kata. Oh, that's one example would be
the dominance of right legged kick and right legged knee raise
in Matsubayashi Sharon Roux karate doe, which is of course,
the precursor of many of the Sharon Roux, which would like to
become Shah Tikan type of style Shah Tikan and wadaroo.
(13:25):
There's an imbalance. As I say, I've listed all of
these painstaking read the number of knee raises and
so-called kicks and they're they're unequal.
They're not done equally on the left and the right.
Something that the so-called thebasics or key on attempts to
adjust by marching up and down and doing everything on one side
and then on the other repeatedly, which isn't evident
(13:45):
in the catha, returning them to the Penan Catha, which are known
in the in the very popular globally followed style of
Shutican. Those catha were renamed by
Finicos Egyptians as a hyen Catha and called peaceful minds.
Looking at them, examining them,we understand within the Koduru,
we didn't follow those kata, notout of any disrespect for Ikosu
(14:11):
uncle the creator, but he created those kata ostensibly,
arguably between 19105 and 19108, which in the scheme of
things is sort of only sort of, I don't know, 50 years before I
was born. So it's not exactly a long time
ago, not that antiquity lends any particular credibility to a
(14:34):
cat or a form, but because whoseforms?
What he this was a teacher who created forms with no
demonstrable, no evidence to demonstrate that he, for
example, knew what the Nihantiandid.
So here we have a a founder who's creating catter who
doesn't seem to have been able to either assimilate or pass on
(14:59):
the functions of the catter thathe'd already learnt which which
certainly made me think, how is he qualified to create these
these these these cattle? Certainly he gave no significant
that we're aware of indication that he understood Kusanku
chinto Pasai. So these cater that we always go
on and on about. These are the antique cater.
(15:21):
This is the Canon of Sorin Rue or shurite karate.
Obviously, I'll leave aside Sanchin, Sisan and Tanquerio
from the Nahar school and just for purposes of this
conversation concentrate on the Shorin Rue or the Shurite cata.
But the founder or rather the architect of the of the Penang
(15:42):
cata doesn't seem to have demonstrated any understand any,
hasn't passed on any applications or he has not
demonstrated that he understood the functions of the existing
cata prior to creating some more.
And in fact, there's considerable evidence in place
to suggest that Itasio Anko created the Penang series for
(16:02):
Okken and domestic high school consumption.
So almost as a form of PE and training for young, young young
people, children in in in a school setting, which throws
into question any practical sortof Marshall or otherwise
application. And historically there are no
cohesive or codent applications to the PNN catters and therefore
(16:24):
to the the hian catters. So I just reiterate, I re chase
not to follow these catter simply because they were
constructed by somebody who doesnot seem to have been able to
have demonstrated a full understanding of the
applications of the existing Qatar, namely Nihanshin,
(16:45):
Kusanku, Chinto and Pasai. Those, and those are antique
forms, were created with something in mind, and there was
an original intention for those physical manuals to be put
together. As Nitin just points out,
there's there's no evidence thatthere was any intention for
those collections of those cata to serve any particular
(17:06):
function. There's no reports of detailed
explanations for the Hinan formsat all.
Indeed, and some researchers in the past and this this took
place in the 80s and 90s, particularly in the 90s, but
tried to suggest that the, the, the peanuts were from an older
series donated in China in the Channons.
(17:27):
So I, you know, like I can't find anything to substantiate
that there. And there's no evidence for the
Channons or the Peanuts anywherein China that I mean, I haven't
thought, I haven't travelled thewhole of China.
Quite frankly, it's would be an impossible task.
But there's no documentary evidence or otherwise of the
so-called Channons. The whole Pinon slash Kiyan kata
(17:50):
series originates with Itosu. We know this historically.
We know this from the records. We know this from the writings
of karate luminaries and greats such as Nagamine, Shoshin and
others. Itosu is the is the creator of
the of the Pinon Pata and we don't follow those in within
Kodiru for the reasons I alreadygave.
(18:11):
Just while I remember on the note of Nagamine Shoshim in the
last episode, I made an error. I do apologise to, to everyone
when I was citing the chief instructor of the Japan Karate
Association, the former chief instructor Nakayama Masatoshi,
and I refer to him as Nagamine Shoshin.
I do apologise for that. I, I, I, I made a mistake.
(18:34):
So it was Nakayama Masatoshi wasthe former chief instructor of
the Japan Karate Association andNagamine Shoshin since was
actually the founder of Matsubayashi Shore in Ulu Karate
dough, just for clarity. Just following on just another
quick point on the the the peanut catter in as we're we're
(18:56):
in that right now, the the peanut catters sort of seem to
be seem to start the trend of catter being created and
modified heavily. And by the time get you from the
Koshi brings karate mainland Japan, he goes, but he creates
(19:17):
the 10 no Qatar with his son, which is which is better
representation of karate basics.I mean the Pinon Qatar's are a
pretty poor representation of basic what became Qihon in
karate and there was no representation of that in Qatar.
So the kitchen Fruna Koshi creates 10 no Qatar and I
(19:38):
believe there is an intention tomake two more of that type of
cater. And he also created the Taikoku
caters to represent as representations of the of the
Quichon. So there's there's a cater being
created and modified heavily andstill, but by the time the
tender cater is created, it's closer to an intended function.
(20:01):
They needed a representation of the Chaon and then the the the
Ipon kumite, the Sanborn kumite and the Gohan kumite.
Were the applied tenocatter. So at least the Tenocatter had
an intention, and it had an application and an interactive
training practise that came withit, whereas the the Penans just
(20:22):
don't quite cut it. Absolutely it is the case.
It is the case that the FunokosiTichen sensei and Yoshitaka Tigo
Tigo to use his other name Waka sensei, the young sensei.
They promoted the whole idea of basic karate through a series
that the tenor kata was, which is not really followed by by
(20:45):
mainstream schools any longer. But it's rare that you get the
down block, reverse punch, middle level block, reverse
punch, upper block, reverse punch, sword hand block, reverse
punch sort of seems to be systematically laid out.
And that led to the the basics that ETI became the practise for
all of the files were irrespective.
So not just the Shottakan school, but the Waderu and even
(21:07):
the Gojiru has a similar set of key on the basics of, of, of, of
stepping forward and punching and blocking that that is, is
just ubiquitous within karate. All styles do it.
Strangely, Kung Fu never really did that.
It has of late. So a lot of modern approaches
to, to Chinese Kung Fu. Now take that same approach that
(21:28):
was in fact created by finger koshi jitsu and sensei.
Now I just want to give a timeline for this because what
what we're seeing is so, so Finakoshi Jitsu and Sensei
introduced karate to Japan in 1921.
So this is sort of the time when.
So this is just shortly before my, my father was born.
So within my lifetime. It's not, it's not this is not
(21:50):
these are not the annals of history.
This is not the deep, dark distant past.
And the eternal cattle wasn't finalised until really it was
being put into place in the 20s and 30s and when my parents were
born and my grandparents were thriving and alive.
This is a relatively modern, it's not postmodern, but it's a
(22:11):
modern training and, and not in any way can well it cannot be
considered as in, in my view anyway, as a quote, authentic
Catter. It's a really a Keon Catter and
and later the name Keon Catter was used to describe the
Taikyoku series, which the greatkarateka Henry Plea, the
Frenchman who who really took karate to Europe.
(22:34):
He was very much a European pioneer of karate and a man very
passionate about karate, wrote the rather interesting in a
book. I always enjoyed karate beginner
to black belts and the old blackand white photographs and a very
interesting book. But he, he took at his own
expense and engaged a number of Japanese karate experts to
(22:55):
increase his own knowledge and spread his love and passion for
karate throughout France and Europe.
But he, he spoke of 6 Kaikyoku Qatar.
I can't find any other sources for those 6, but I'm I'll take
him, I'll take his word for it. Most karate groups, certainly of
the Chodokan persuasion, only practise the first one, which
(23:17):
they call Kyon Qatar, which is Kaikyoku Sudan.
But I believe there are actuallyor there were 6 and and this is
an example of the ever expandingrepertoire of karate as it grew.
So from the Itosu's creation of the Penan and Finocosi Titian
senses modification of the antique Catherine by the time we
(23:39):
get to the 1936 publication by Finocosi Titian Senses of Karate
Dokiohan, that's if we'd seen itbefore in Donaemon in 2122.
But by 36 we can see heavily modified versions of the Casca
antique catter that still were, I would say carefully here, were
(24:01):
more conscientiously carefully preserved in for instance, the
Matsubasi of Nagamine, Shoshi and and others.
The cata changed quite considerably in their Psotocan
format. So we see a big change in the
antique cata in their presentation, very little in the
way of functions or applications.
And then we see the addition of five Pinan cata from Itosu Anku
(24:25):
and six Taikyoku cata. So we've got at least another 12
cata being added, plus the key cata, the antique cata being
heavily modified. It's no wonder that the karate
got a bit untidy. Untidy in the sense that the
purpose and meaning of the Cassie applications were even
(24:46):
further from being displayed or understood as this stuff, as the
material just expanded and expanded.
Then of course, the addition of,of kicking, of an inordinate
number of kicking techniques that it's interesting.
I, I always, I remember asking some very senior karate where
the Roundhouse kicked the mawashi Yuki, where that
actually occurred in the the Roundhouse kick, the tanning
(25:08):
kick, because it's not in, in any of the original cartoon.
In fact, 11 very senior Suddekanmaster, I think it was Kanazel
Ascenci actually, as far as I recall, could a round house kick
in one of the cat, I forget which one, but none of those,
the back turning kick, spinning kicks and none of those were in
(25:29):
the cattle. Of course they came to
prominence. We all remember.
No we don't all it depends on one's age.
But I can remember those kicks really come into prominence with
the 1972 film starring Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon, which we
all devoured and we've never seen anything like it.
And then all these amazing acrobatic spinning kicks, which
everybody wanted to, you know, we wanted everyone was
(25:51):
interested and of course they weren't in the cattle,
particularly when you look at a cattle like in the weight of the
Naha series, the Sansi in the Cezanne, the sun said you
there's no back turning kick. There's no round kick packed,
no, no kick at all. There is a, there are, I think
in the, well, not I think I knowin the Cezanne and Sunseri
(26:13):
there, there are elementary front kicks, which I think Tom
would be able to explain very well.
But they, they are basic. I mean, I can too.
They are basically, you know, they're, they're, they're kicks
used in conjunction with the, with the weapon.
But none of those, the, the kicks occurred were in the
katter. Suddenly they became very
prominent in, in karate. You know, without wishing to be
(26:35):
rude, and I don't mean to be intensely rude, the kicks in
karate were very good for business, very good for
business. They attracted audiences.
They were great in demonstrations as as you know,
for for people in non non non Chinese or Japanese cultures.
This whole idea of kicking was, was something completely new and
(26:56):
different. You know, if you were raised in
the West on a staple diet of of boxing and wrestling and maybe
certainly by the the 70s some judo, then then see these kicks
that, you know, they were impressive as youngsters, we all
wanted to do and we did all do them.
We were, we were leaping around and I think very, very popular
(27:20):
was the flying sidekick, Tory Yoko Geri.
Yeah, side fight, jumping, flying sidekick, something like
that. They were very, very and the
scissor kick really made popularby the the character Rose John
Saxon Genia, the the American act, the late American actor and
terrific. We had a lovely meeting meeting
(27:41):
with him at Semi in 2006 but he he made the the scissor kick
popular in as the character Roper in Into the Dragon.
So we were all busy doing cycle kicks and flying sidekicks and
trying our best to get back turning kicks.
And of course that led to us allstretching out and doing box
splits and doing everything we could to ease up our hip sockets
(28:04):
so we could produce these outrage kicks.
That was a lot of fun and but nothing to do with the character
and nothing to do with the actual tradition.
That was my background when I first did Lalgar.
It was all that flying kicks, spinning kicks and lots of
stretching exercises. Did loads of that.
But could you do? Could you?
(28:25):
I could, yeah, I, I could do them.
I could do box splits. I could do all of that because I
was quite supple. Trouble is, it wasn't very
effective when you come up against inspiring the someone
who's about 15 stone and no, no,no.
So good for show, but as you say, not good for you, your hips
and your chants. I think all of that stuff speaks
(28:47):
to the you know, it's style, isn't it, because style can kind
of wander off in any direction it it it wants to.
With the show to Kanda pretend no Katter and the Ipon Sanborn
go Hong Kumites is leaning back into being system again, and
sparring takes it back into style.
(29:09):
A a tussle there between the two.
But when the functions of the I know we go on and on and on
about the original functions, but when they're intact, you
can't really wander off into style.
You you you kind of down by the function and and and that kind
of that's what the practise is and style's quite recreational
as well. It's when karate's become
(29:31):
recreational as opposed to beingthose cater being part of
someone's job or role in society, whether it be military
or or civil or or or whatever. That's a very different approach
when you would have to do that as your job as opposed to, you
know, learning to do a spinning kick is recreational because
(29:51):
there's, there's no, you don't ever need it ever.
No, unless you choose to engage in that way.
Well, having been at a concert in the 80s and seeing a huge
fight kick off, I can assure younobody used spinning kicks.
They didn't. It was just horrible.
Yeah. That's quite a staggering of the
pin and Carters. I didn't know that.
(30:13):
That stuff that is basically made-up with no applications.
These repurchased bits of the antique forms, the pin ands are
evidence that the functions didn't arrive through the forms
in Okinawa. Yeah, the only one that tries to
argue that they were passed downbehind closed doors, the
original functions, there's no evidence for that.
(30:33):
What the evidence is completely contrary to that.
It's that there were no functions passed down because
you couldn't chop up and splice them together to create those
sort of the finance sort of Frankenstein monster type forms,
aren't they? They're they're bits and pieces
that that shouldn't. You can't take a bit of we Sanku
(30:54):
and mix it with a bit of Chinto.It doesn't work like that.
Those manuals are for for for jobs, for for roles.
Yeah, go on next in. Yeah.
Thank you, Tom. Thank you.
Thank you. The mere existence is is is
evidence of of the sheer creation of the choreography
created by Ethosu Anku. So the very fact that they seem
(31:15):
to be ordered and they go to theleft and then they go to the
right seems to suggest that there's there's some there's
some kind of order, but on closer examination, there isn't.
And if you're going to turn to the right and and do a mig every
but you never do that to the left.
You have to question that. Now, I'm not saying that's wrong
because we can find that in the antique films, but within the
antique forms you can discover what why they're structured the
(31:38):
way they are. With the Pinans, it's impossible
because they are just mere choreography.
They are literally routines thathave no functional legitimacy.
That's quite a thing to say really, but people have spent a
lot of time trying to really their gymnastic choreographed
sequences with no, no actual function or purpose whatsoever,
(31:58):
which is why we we didn't give them, we don't practise them is
could. Suggest as well that the idea of
there even being an original function never even made it
Okinawa. So is it the idea that the
functions were lost may simply have been here's some Kung Fu
and you know, and you can interpret it, do with it what,
(32:19):
however, whatever you like, who knows?
But it kind of suggests that that might have been the case
because original functions, it was seldom ever talked about.
Seldom ever discussed. I mean, I know from my own
personal history of Mordo, the idea of there being an intended
purpose to a catter was never talked about.
(32:40):
I'd never even considered it until I met Nathan.
And so it makes me wonder if that was something that would
never even perhaps have occurredto a tosu, that he couldn't do
whatever he wanted. Well, of course he could do
whatever he wanted. He could take these antique
forms and splice them together to make something new.
The the idea of there being intended functions may never
(33:02):
have even made it that far. Indeed, it makes us.
This is why our thinking in within Koderu is quite alien to
so many people, because many people don't think that way.
And of course it's, it's normal for us.
But that's because of our experience with the Nihantin,
which Shania reminded me this very day as one of the most
(33:23):
maligned or misunderstood of Qatar, which is something that
he suggested we put more effort into addressing, which I suspect
we will. But it's because of that kata
and what it does and also what it doesn't do that that we've,
we've got this unique way of thinking that is so uncommon in
the karate world that actually these, these kata have very
(33:45):
specific functions. And just to be, just to be clear
here, I'll just talk about two kata for or three actually,
let's do 3 Tom's understanding of Kusanku.
That's a good no, Hansen, which is where it all began for us.
And the original sanction, they are all incredibly clear as to
what they do. And they're not.
If could be and maybe could be not at all.
(34:08):
They are very, very specific in their intentions and their
functions and the mechanical procedures, exactly what they're
about and what the creators purposed.
And that way of thinking is so unusual simply because, yeah,
the the accepted norm for karate.
It can be this, it can be that, as I said earlier, and you can
interpret it what people do, just their interpretation.
(34:31):
How can individuals claim they've got the right version,
the truth? That's nonsense.
But it isn't nonsense because I can't speak to the proper
applications of the opinion cater, as I've made clear,
because there aren't any becausethey weren't made by someone
that used the same formula or used the same way of thinking or
working as the creators of the antique Cater not in the same
(34:54):
category at all. The creative, the peanuts had no
idea. As I've said earlier, I could be
upset people by say who does Johnson think he is saying that?
I do say that I can't find any evidence that Mister Itosu or
Itosu sensing knew what the antique kata did.
If he did he a he wouldn't have needed to create the peanut
kata. It would have been unnecessary.
(35:15):
It wouldn't have been necessary and he certainly would have
topped wouldn't have topped and changed bits.
You can't blend a bit of a tonnefor cattle with a bit of US
movement to take the a bow staffaway from someone or a movement
to retain your own bow staff. You wouldn't feel who's all of
those in a in a series of five cattle that that's the seem to
have a chronological order, but they don't.
(35:37):
What they have a choreographed sequences that people can learn
and remember is mnemonic devices, but they're not
constructed on the same. They appear to be on the same
pattern as the antique cata, butI will say emphatically they are
not. And there's absolutely no
Chinese prototype because you can see that the Pinans are
(35:57):
spliced together from other antique forms.
And now that the kind of the functions of those forms are
kind of becoming unravelled, youcan see that there's no way that
there was a prototype. And if there was, it's nonsense.
If there was a prototype back inChina, it's that someone else
has spliced together those antique forms without knowing
(36:18):
what the function was, that there's no evidence whatsoever.
They're pick and mix forms. And Itosa, as Nathan's already
discussed, has lived recently enough.
Farther, if there was an original function intended, he
certainly didn't tell anyone. And if you're going to say that
there, if someone would still argue that the PNN's are, you
(36:41):
know, had an original function or an effective method or a
system, the burden of proof is on them.
They're going to have to explainwhy Nihan Shi, Kusanku, Chinto
and more have been spliced together in that way.
They're going to have to speak to that and and evidence it
because the evidence is is is against it forms being anything
(37:01):
more than as Nathan already described as a, you know,
gymnastic routines for the school system in Okinawa.
And one of the ways to one of the ways that this has been
perpet the style of rate rather than a system.
So if we look at the weighty series Santi and say San
Santiado, that's a system. If we look at young Chung,
(37:22):
commonly called ring Chung, I'm not going to worry about
pronunciations because I'm not anative Cantonese speaker.
If we look at ring Chung, that'sa system.
Karate difficult. We will say, well, shorter cans
a system. It's a collection.
It's very eclectic, the seven kata and growing Wateru 12
katter 15 sorry and growing not now no, They tend to stay pretty
(37:43):
much the same go guru 12 katter.No disrespect to any of those
styles or their teachers, but they're not They purport to
beauty systems, but that's questionable.
What generally happens with the presentation of Katter is
stylistic. So shorter can will do the
katter in deep stances. Wateru will do the much higher,
(38:03):
lighter and quickest stances andthose become what I've seen is
allegedly the stylistic nuances of those styles.
So whatever is considered to be lighter and faster and more
evasive and Sutter can is heavy and and Gojiru is very strong
and deep and powerful. Yeah, pretty much at the end of
the day, when you look at the kata, the way they obfuscate
(38:25):
cover up things is to just do the kata very fast or very hard
or to emphasise different thingsin different places.
This is where you get the which we'll cover in in future
episodes. The famous Kimai, if you look at
the Sotakai practise of the lateHarada Mitsuki sensei,
personally, I found him very influential.
(38:46):
He influenced me was quite profoundly when I was young.
He was upgraded to go down 5th then by directly by Fiona Koshi
Jitsu Sensei. But he was really basically in
part a student of Egami Siguru. And Egami Siguru created a whole
new soft kind of karate, flexible and flowing, which I
suspect was quite profoundly influenced by obviously by
(39:09):
Marios Aikido. Again, this is all early, early
stuff. I think receiver sense he
demonstrated by Kuda originally in a department store in Tokyo
and I think as late as 1936. But how how in a sense is soft
strata guy had no Kimi, no focus.
(39:31):
So there was no tensing at the end of a technique which I think
most conventional karate stars would would not find them
suitable, wouldn't agree with. So we have this thing called
Kimi, which is the tension at the end of a technique, which is
pardon parcel of Main Street stream karate, particularly in
in Kiel, in basics practise and in Qatar practise, though you
(39:53):
don't really tend to see it so much inspiring, which is always
a lot more fluid and doesn't have quite as much of that.
But the the tension, the focus, the tensing of the muscles in a
in a the end of a technique in kinetic is unique to that type
of mass light. You don't find it, for instance,
in in boxing or wrestling or jiujitsu or judo.
You do find it in some gung fu systems.
(40:15):
Notice the the so-called hard styles.
But what we've postulated withinthe Coderu corpus of study and
body of knowledge. Is that this key may actually
comes from the weapons and that the focus, the tensing is there
to stop the weapon bouncing out of your hand on impact.
It's a direct, it's the result of weapons forms that are done
(40:39):
in sequences, which is the origin of so many of the cata
that we constantly discuss on these on on on on these
podcasts. And that tensing is not
necessary in a flowing style or in boxing or in, in, in, in, in
those sorts of kickboxing, for instance, MU Thai and the rest
of those sorts of styles don't obsess with the the the
(41:01):
so-called focus, the Kimae. They don't bother with it hardly
at all. Karate does and so does a lot of
Kung Fu. This is further evidence for the
weapons base of the cata that wewe talk about.
But even something as fundamental of that seems to
remain unknown in the corpus of the study of of within the, the
transmission of the pen and cataor for that matter, most of the
(41:24):
cata, it's unknown. So even that the fundamental
reason for Kimae seems to have been unknown and and and and and
and why the the way that that this is talking around is is to
do the the cata fast, hard with lots of kimae, lots of focus and
guttural breathing and all sortsof things that make it the whole
(41:45):
practise look very manly or sorry, I don't mean to be
sexist, but to look really toughand very martial.
And you don't find that kind of a flashy display and you know
the you know the fighting for in, for instance, I give a
return to Muay Thai in kickboxing.
You just don't find it. But there will be some who argue
that Kim A provides the focus and power to inflict damage that
(42:08):
the intended target. Does Kim A on a punch add to the
effectiveness of your punch, or is it throwing your body weight
through your arm and fist, as indeeply into the target as you
can? What makes a punch effective?
And you know, you do need to grip tightly on the weapons.
(42:28):
So you do need that Kim a momentbecause you can't grip the
weapon tightly as hard as you can all the time.
Otherwise you know you're not going to be able to move very
well. So there's a there's that
tension between moving and manoeuvring the side, for
example, into wherever it needs to be.
And then the Kim aids tighten whether it's going to be to
impact or to create leave bridgeand pressure.
(42:51):
So once you know what the Kim isfor and perhaps play around with
it and experiment with it, how is it then justified?
There's not the justification falls to us to they work to
argue why people you go on usingit.
Jack Dempsey didn't worry about him.
You know, the professional boxers hit much harder than
(43:11):
generally speaking than people that performing Oyzuki or
reverse punch and stuff then they're not concerned about.
OK, there's a bracing in the body which is different bracing
in the body on him to land the punch or something like that is
a different thing. And sometimes it's argued that
the Kimae is is is kind of like that, but it's not.
It's the is the the way that it's done in Qatar traditionally
(43:36):
is is to Brae is to to tighten the grip around a weapon.
Yeah, I get that. It's.
Like hammering a nail. Yeah.
Grip a hammer. I do.
We're holding the hammer really softly.
I do remember. I can remember watching a guy
preparing for ABA area belt on the punch bag and he's a big guy
(43:56):
practising hooking combinations on it and he did not do any
chamet and every single punch hethrew buckled that bag and it
was a full length bag, No, no chamet.
But in the karate, because it's become so performative, because
it hasn't got the function, the performative has been developed
(44:16):
to plug the void. Isn't it left behind?
So Kusain, I mean, there's, you know, you look at the world
class, the the world champions in Qatar performing Kusain Kur.
It's, it's a very dynamic performance with lovely sharp,
crisp movements and all the restof it.
It doesn't, it doesn't, it's nota representation of the function
(44:37):
of the form that's been experienced and then embodied
into, you know, absorbed into a Qatar practise.
It's it's something that's become completely performative
and the exaggerations that make it more and more performative.
And Kimi looks good in the ghee.If you take the ghee off and do
the cutter without the ghee, theKimi feels a bit silly You.
(45:01):
Don't get the crack of the ghee.No, no, no, it's rubbish.
Didn't they used to? Didn't they used to supply a
particular weight of ghee just to get a better crack out of it
than he did? I remember it.
We all knew that a good, a good,a good crack and wear a
heavyweight gear because you've got a terrific crack and you
(45:24):
never got a good lightweight gear because the cotton was too
soft. Yeah, Kim Kim ages, but it
looked if you see someone doing it without a gear on it, it
looks a bit odd, yeah. Having spoken of then having a
panel or a group of seniors who run the the so-called style, the
(45:45):
fact that they agree on a numberset number of catter it makes a
style, yes, doesn't make a system.
So it always makes me chuckle when I hear people talk about
certain styles as a system. You know how on earth you can
have a system, the 27 cat. I've no idea how you can
assimilate that many cater in a practical way is is beyond me.
(46:08):
You know, certainly I've had a lifetime of friends that have
tried to do that and all they can do is practise separate
pieces. I've got a very dear friend who
is and a lifelong he, he, he, hemastered both branches, the
shottiken and the Goju. What he does is just concentrate
on the limited number of kata. He understands that you, you
(46:31):
know, instead of trying to practise 27 Zodiacan kata and
and 12 Goju kata, he understandsthat there's no point in in
trying to do that. So he's just let them go as
experience and and my point is acollection of of cata does not
make a system. The Cata that you do have need
(46:52):
to be integrated together and function together in a
syncretical way in a synthesis. You need to function together.
That will create a system. But a mere collection of cata
does not constitute a system. And that was the point.
That was the point under discussion.
Without going into the etymologyof of the word system, just to
(47:13):
keep it simple, you could. It could be argued that a
systematic way of doing something constitutes a system.
I would say that for a system tobe functional, it has to be
integrated. So just so so, we mustn't
confuse set of rituals or or repeated behaviours.
No disrespect to you know, if I suffer from a bit of OCD, that
(47:36):
doesn't make me a systematic person.
And I'm not, I'm not admitting to OCD or denying OCD.
I'm simply or criticising OCD. Millions and millions of people
have those sorts of experiences.It doesn't make us systematic.
It just means that we do things in a repetitive way and doing
something in a repetitive way doesn't necessarily constitute a
(47:58):
system. So, you know, a good way of
quick way of looking at system would be a computer system.
A computer to have the software and hardware, the integration of
those that to produce the outcome that you want when you
use a computer. So we can then quite sensitively
talk about computer systems. And that makes sense.
(48:19):
But if you've got a pile of junk, half of it's not plugged
in, half of it doesn't work. Loads of tunes and valves and
electrical bits and wires and you know, we've got a big
collection of it of electronic stuff, but it's, that doesn't
make it a system and it is, doesn't make it functional.
And that brings us to the end ofanother enlightening episode of
great karate myths. Debunking the legends.
(48:41):
Today, we've explored the fascinating and often
contentious distinction between karate styles and true systems.
We've learned how the absence oforiginal functions led to the
proliferation of diverse styles,and how influential figures like
Pitosu Anko repurposed elements into forms like the Pinot
cutter, which were arguably intended more for physical
(49:02):
education than Marshall application.
We've also touched on the evolution of techniques,
including the relatively modern introduction of kicks like the
Roundhouse, and questioned the performative aspects of
practises like Kimme, suggestingit's origins lie in weapon based
sports. It's clear that understanding
the original integrated purpose of Qatar is key to unlocking the
(49:24):
true depth of karate. As we've discussed, a mere
collection of forms, no matter how systematically performed,
does not constitute A functionalsystem.
Thank you for joining us on thisjourney of discovery.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and
review Great Karate Myths and Legends on Spotify or wherever
you listen to your podcasts. The sport helps us continue to
(49:47):
explore and challenge the narratives of martial arts
history. Join us next time as we continue
to debunk the legends and uncover the truth behind the
techniques. Until then, keep questioning,
keep learning, and keep trainingwith purpose.
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