July 29, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of "Great Karate Myths: Debunking the Legends," we delve into Sanchin, the foundational karate kata. We explore the compelling theory that the Uechi-ryu Sanchin, brought from China by Kanbun Uechi, serves as a prototype due to its pure function for sai training. Discover how historical events, like the Qing dynasty's weapons ban, may have led to the divergence of Sanchin forms, influencing Goju-ryu's interpretation as a dynamic tension exercise without direct applications. Uncover the "map" that Sanchin provides for fundamental martial arts skills and why understanding its original purpose is crucial for unlocking its true utility. Join us for a deep dive into the evolution and enduring significance of "One Sanchin to Rule Them All."Key Takeaways/Highlights:
- The Sanchin preserved in Uechi-ryu is speculated to be a prototype due to its pure function and concise nature, originally intended for training with sai.
- The Goju-ryu Sanchin likely diverged from this common source, adapting to an empty-hand focus and leading to interpretations as a dynamic tension exercise.
- The historical weapons ban during the Qing dynasty may have contributed to the loss of original Sanchin functions, leading to varied interpretations and "semi-testing" practices.
- Core preparatory forms like Sanchin (or Naihanchi in Shorin-ryu and Sil Lim Tao in Wing Chun) are essential "maps" for developing fundamental martial arts skills.
- While many Sanchin forms exist, their utility for unarmed fighting or body conditioning is debated, with the Uechi-ryu version being highlighted for its clear, systematic application.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to great karate myths debunking the legends.
Today we're diving into Sanchin,the foundational kata often
called the beginning and end of karate.
As we embark on one of many discussions on this enigmatic
kata, we ask, is there a prototype Sanchin that truly
(00:28):
underpins all others? We'll unravel its mysterious
origins, tracing its path from ancient China to Okinawa,
revealing how its meaning shifted dramatically over time.
Join us as we explore the one Sanchin to rule.
Them all. And Tom, you're going to start
(00:51):
us off. Yeah.
So over the years, as we looked at the sort, the original
functions to Sanchin, what one topic that came up and something
that we speculated on was, is there was there a prototype
(01:13):
Sanchin one that could, that wasthe source of all of the
Sanchins? Or was there an idea that was
kind of created out of the Sanchin that became the, the
base for all these different ones in all these different,
lots of different systems have come through, particularly in
the Fujian region. And so today we just thought
(01:35):
about speculating on that a little bit and how sanctions
have evolved and changed a bit and, and some of that.
So the starting point is that the Sanchin that we're
suggesting or of speculating on that might be the prototype is
the one that's been preserved inWeichi Riu, which was brought
from China by Camden Reichi. After studying it there and
(01:59):
learning it there to Oki, he brought it to Okinawa and it
became the foundation for for Weichi Riu.
And many, many years later, Nathan discovered the original
function to be for training and development for the use of a
pair of Si. And as we practised and explored
(02:22):
it and discussed it, some of some things about that
particular sanction really made it stand out from the other
sanctions that were also kind ofon the periphery that you might
find in White Crane or Five Ancestor Fist or other style
monk fist, things like that. And it's really, really concise.
(02:46):
So everything in that cater is pure function.
So the opening section is is. I mean, I'll use to describe it,
but we can link the video. Taking hold of the SI and
drawing them, bringing them intoan open position, working
through the grips and changes and the different positions and
(03:09):
orientations of the SI, the basic movements and so on are
all trained in ascension. There are three sections.
All with multiples repetitions. Are in multiples of three.
Which is again something that will stand out later as we
(03:29):
explain a bit more. There's no flourishes, there's
no added extras, there's no no stylistics, no animal movements
or noises or anything that you might find in some of the
Fujianese Kung Fu systems. And so this sort of
representation of pure function lead to the speculation that it
might be or could be possibly a prototype that the other sent
(03:54):
other stylists drew on or martial artists drew on to
create different systems during the Qing Dynasty.
And the house and the whys of that we can talk about later.
But yeah, that's my sort of opening point on that.
OK. Nathan, regarding the shared
origins, could you develop that point about the common source of
(04:15):
the sanction variations? Yeah.
So we we see broadly put lots ofgroups all over the world
practise sanction, but disturb if we were to go back a century,
we could say that there's a Gojiru and Waituru in Okinawa
that spread out all over the world.
(04:36):
Obviously there are lots of Chinese sanctions and we'll get
to that. But interesting that if we look
at a little slight historical bit, it would appear that Cambun
Weichi learned from the same teacher as Megichojin's formal
(04:58):
teacher Higashi on a Cano. So Cambun Weichi was the founder
of the Wechi Rukharate with its particular Sanchin, the one
we're discussing. But Sanchin was already on all
Canaro by the time Cambun Weichieventually took it there.
Actually, he took it to Japan first.
When he came back from China, hedidn't go directly to Okinawa.
(05:19):
He spent some time in Japan and was persuaded by a student he
was teaching or somebody who knew to actually start teaching,
which he did. Point being, the Nyghi Chodan's
teacher and Cambun Waitsi both had the same teacher.
They had the teacher one crew 1 Dojo in China, so it's common.
(05:45):
Source but by the time Waichi Cameron had taken his material,
his version of the cat of the original version, as we're
suggesting Higashi Ona's group, which grew through Meagi Trojan
Sensi and Duo Duhatsu, they had already were already counting
the first. And so the change had occurred
(06:08):
in Okinawa before Richie Cambroncould get his version kicked
off, which gave rise to two different so-called styles or
versions which actually had sprung out of the same bojo so
cater for this differentiation. The names were loosely coined
Pangae Noon to explain the waitchi versions of the kata,
(06:32):
and someone came up with the term Kingae Noon to as as a
precursor from Yagi Chojin senses Gojulu.
It's just my view that they camefrom the same source.
I'm not alone in that. You know, I think it might be
shared by Patrick McCarthy, although, yeah, we have to check
(06:54):
that. Yeah.
Like something I forgot because it's quite important.
You can see that if you're looking at the go to the UK, you
can see that Maggie chosen sincehe he discarded the original
opening of the Sanchin cat as you as you see it in in in the
weight. Instead, he adopted the
(07:16):
Musubudachi, the heels together position with the hands crossed
left palm over the over the right fingers pointing down and
and in fact, he adopted that forthe opening of all Kojudu kata.
(07:37):
It's it's it's it's odd that well, not odd, but it's the the
the this hand position is is used in is often used in surely
Cata for Nihantine is the key 1 and it it hadn't been seen and
still isn't in in other versionsat all, particularly in Waitiru.
You don't see that Waitiru stillopens the cata.
(07:58):
And what I would say is, is Fujianese in a Fujianese where
yeah. And I think that going through,
but it is with the closed fist, you can see it's clearly it.
I would say it's different. I think the open hand likely
came first, which is where we'reheading with all of this.
(08:21):
So it's not really two differentthings.
One is an adaptation likely of the other.
And it's interesting finally to note here in this bit go through
Sesen and Sansebury start the same way once they're open with
the fists being closed. But the waiti say son and son
say to you do not. So there's a they've already
(08:45):
diverged at a very early stage. But I think my point is that
they are likely from a common source.
So let's let's go back, Tom, let's look at that common source
that we're saying that and and as Wei Chi what we're saying
Wei. Chi is the.
Prototype for all these centuries.
Well, it's preserved in the Wei Chi.
(09:08):
So the, you know, Camden wage, he didn't create that sanction.
He learnt it. He learnt it interestingly.
So it's important to say when wesay Weichi Sanchin that that
might be kind of it's not wait, is the sanction preserved in
wage? So it's a Chinese Sanchin.
And when you compare it against other sanctions, you, you find a
(09:33):
far, I think a list of nice internal consistencies.
You know, the numbers are consistent, the sections are
consistent and you don't find that in the other sanctions.
So you also don't find a backwards step.
And in unravelling the usage of the site, backward steps are not
(09:53):
particularly that functional andyou don't tend to find them.
And what you do find in sanctions are backward steps.
And so that's the later development and perhaps a
deviation might have been a deviation from a, from a
prototype as well. So you have the introduction of
bows, fists and and backward steps.
(10:16):
And you also have irregular repetitions as well.
So in Section 2, you have 3 repetitions.
Section 3 you have 3 repetitionsin the sanction in Waichi, but
in a lot of the Fujianese you'llfind a couple of repetitions, 2
of 1 technique, 2 of another, then one of one.
(10:37):
So there's a that's not congruent with, you know, this
very neatly ordered practise which has been put together for
cultivating and the fundamental usage of the PSI as far as we
can tell. Anyway, in the open, in the
Section 1 of the sanction, you, you, you walk around in a circle
(11:00):
doing repetitions. So I suppose, I mean, Nathan
suggested this, that you could just walk that circle for as
long as you needed to. So it wouldn't be that you would
just turn twice and do 12 repetitions.
You keep going for as long as you wanted to.
And, and the same thing could besaid of Section 2 and Section 3.
Actually you can, you can loop that pattern of Section 3 and
(11:25):
Section 2 doesn't move anyway. So that's quite interesting that
it's neatly ordered in that way for practising as long as you
need to. And you don't find that
consistency in the other, the other sanctions, they're quite
irregular in the ordering and and and structure of it compared
to that lovely consistent sanction we find in the Waichi.
(11:51):
Yeah. That's that's sort of above the
next point I think on that. Yeah, look, if we shift over
looking at the Miyagi Sanchin, or rather the Gojiru Sanchin,
because it is the case that Miyagi Chojin made it clear that
he created the short Sanchin andthen he did tidy it up.
(12:17):
He simplified it. His Sanchin is very minimal,
which is why we say that it's it's really difficult to get to
the bottom of of what what it's doing if the fists are clenched.
So to differentiate that in our understanding of the weight
sheet, Sanchon is really clear that a size being used a pair of
(12:42):
sigh. Mr Megi Megi Chojin says he was
teaching no such thing. Therefore, Dojuru didn't have a
bunkai or an application to Santin at all, which created
then or really developed the tradition of Ossimi semi
(13:04):
testing. The fierce slaps and the
shoulders and the testing of thestands, all accompanied by
sonorous deep breathing and and so on and lots of dynamic
tension which modern practitioners have found out to
their detriment is quite injurious for one's health.
(13:25):
I think if you looked at teachers like Mark Bishop, who
he he, he suggested that I softened up my Sanjin when we
met 30 odd years ago and I thought that was a jolly good
idea. And I think that in the absence
of an application for sanjin, ithad to be given a purpose.
(13:51):
So the idea of Iron Shirt had gone through strength, dynamic
tension was put into place to justify this kata, which had
been described as the foundationof karate, the beginning and the
end of karate. This is karate and a modern
Western line would look at that and say, well that's great, but
(14:11):
what does it do? You know, what's it for?
Whereas with the original or, orwhat we're saying is considering
to be the original Santian, thatquestion doesn't arise because
it's very clear what it's for. It's very systematic.
And as Tom has said, you know, you can do each section in the
(14:32):
way that military people might do drills.
You can go round that in that first section in that sort of
circle, you know, whatever it is, that sort of terrier ring
sort of shape. As long as you want to train, if
you want to train hard, do it lots of times.
No need to keep opening and closing the catter.
(14:55):
You can just keep doing that section over and over.
That's pretty typical of any kind of of military or militia
drill, which ethos is actually inherited by by modern or
postmodern or modern karate. Modern 1st and then postmodern
in terms of blood, sweat and tears in the Dojo.
(15:17):
In other words, one more repetition, just once more, one
more which you know, coming fromyour Japanese instructor means
you're going to be doing that until you're falling down.
Well, that was my experience in the 70s.
Point being, if you know what the cater does, fine.
If you don't, then you've got a bit of a problem.
(15:38):
You need to justify your your core cater.
And that's in my view, how this Sumi Ossumi testing came about.
Now I'm not going to put that onthe OR canals because similar
practises can be seen in the inherited or passed on by Kung
Fu stars Lazi from southern China.
(16:02):
And you can see that they had that as the tradition
themselves, which suggested to me some years ago that that lack
of knowledge of the function, especially when the the kata
varied and changed and but blended with all sorts of
different things when the function was lost.
(16:24):
You know, that was a very popular.
What I mean by that is the testing, the muscle tone and the
slapping and the ossomy, the, the the testing that often
accompanies demonstrations of Sanjin.
That was already the norm in in within some gong fu style.
So I think it's that aspect thatGo Gojiru inherited, but you do
(16:50):
see it in the in the Waitchi rueas well.
But yet the Waitchi Rue preserved that Qatar that
Santian and the Santian and the Santeru, whereas the Gojiru
Qatar say Santin say san and Santeru have already changed.
So you. Get that?
That lovely concise practise andmethod in the Santin preserved
(17:15):
in the Waitchi. It makes me wonder if that was
the kind of route or the source for the art.
Maybe just as an idea that a good a good martial arts system
would need a sanching. Well, that's a good.
That's a good point. That's a that falls the basis of
(17:36):
yeah, yeah, that falls the basisof the thinking.
This is where karate begins. Because it does.
In the weighting. Yes, yes, yes.
Well, I, I, yeah. And I mean in the Fujini
systems, so in the Qing dynasty,you get this emergence of all
these different, so alleged Shaolin based styles, like 5
ancestor fist and all these different, you know, Sanchin
(17:59):
based Kung Fu systems. And they share a lot of
similarities and you know, there's there's a certainly some
very strong crossover with, you know, the different systems and
things like that. But I wonder if it wasn't simply
Sanchin in the pure SI Sanchin that we're discussing.
(18:22):
But perhaps it might have inspired the idea that a good
Kung Fu school would need a Sanchin.
That core method of you're goingto need your steps, you're going
to need your positions and all the rest of it.
Because it's very hard to explain why there's so many
Sanchins and particularly all the different White Crane and
Five Ancestor Fist and Monk Fistand Atmai, and they're all very,
(18:47):
very similar, but different mythologies and different ideas
attached to them as well. But they all have ascensions.
So yeah, it's just something that sort of came to mind.
Was it? Is it the idea because you don't
have attached to the sanction inthe wait sheet, You don't have
attached any idea of White Craneor you know, Monkfit or anything
(19:13):
like that. It's just the Sanchin and we're
in the pure sight in its original function with the sigh.
None of that stuff is seen, appears to be attached to it or
necessary. It doesn't add anything to it.
So something distinct happened in the Qing Dynasty that may
have I leads me to suspect that Sanchin is at least as early as
(19:37):
the Ming dynasty and something shifted with the, you know, with
the transition into the Qingdaidesteem terms of martial thinking
and the development and directions of martial arts,
particularly sanction based ones.
Yeah. Now that that that brings me, I
(19:58):
hear hear, I agree, but I and wehad must be of an excellent
conversation we had. When when we discussed this, so
I don't know how long ago, at least probably a year ago, but
the the idea that, but I used this terminology before all this
explanation. If we looked at it like that
(20:19):
these that the cattle were like scripture.
If you're going to have a religion, I'm not saying you
should or shouldn't, but in religion that there's scripture
and the idea of the script. The idea of the religion is to
live the scripture and the idea of, of, of, of the training is
to live the cattle is to employ it and get use it.
(20:41):
So the idea of having scripture is not just to read it, but it's
to use it and, and, and I, I that's makes perfect sense.
So any style is going to have itscripture first.
So it starts on the premise thathere's the body, the corpus of
knowledge, here's our belief system, here's here is our
stuff. And then, you know, this is
(21:02):
what, and now you're expected togo into the world and, and do it
be good. And whatever the, whatever the,
whatever's required of you in a particular religion.
And I, I, this is AI think a, a common denominator.
But I, I, I think that to answerTom's or to try to answer Tom's
(21:23):
question, something happened in the Ching.
Yeah, I, I think it did. And I think we've visited that
already. And I think one of the big
things that happened in the Ching was the weapons ban, the
defeat of the Ming. And we discussed it.
We've already discussed it this at considerable length.
So the defeat of the Ming by theChing and the ushering in of a
(21:45):
new dynasty saw that draconian weapons ban, one of several and
yeah, which then, you know, we can't know for sure because we
weren't there. But the IT would appear that the
forms continued without the weapons and then without the
(22:05):
weapons. It's just my view that there
that's where the potential for corruption.
That's the wrong word, really, because that implies that we're
talking about something that's pure.
That's a recipe for confusion, and for bits of forms being
jumbled together for reasons other than their direct
(22:27):
practical. Value just stepping back and.
And we're just talking about some of the, some of the
sanctions in, in China. Nathan, you, you wrote about
back in the 90s, so the early 90s in Barefoot's End.
(22:48):
And you, you, you look at the similarities within the Wing
Chung Woollen Dummy, the Five Ancestors, and crucial White
Crane dragon form. Yeah, I, I, I grew up with
literally the, one of my very close friends from the age of 11
(23:10):
onwards. When we were both 13 or so, he
went off to he's, I grew up seeing, knowing and seeing the
can't say I practised it. So we were pretty close friends.
He did the Galbao toy of, of Buckney, which is interesting
(23:36):
that we've not been aware of that type of Kung Fu and toilet
foot since I was a teenager. And and this chap was brilliant.
He was the biggest, baddest, meanest, toughest of all of us.
Even though he was excellent, hewas physically superb and his,
(23:57):
his, his life belief was that you needed to be fast and
strong. And I, you know, having gone
through an esoteric phase and I think it turns out he was, he
was right. But I, I, I was aware of these
forms from a very, fairly early period, certainly by the last
(24:18):
couple of year, last year at school and, and on into 1718 and
19. And I had started my experiences
with like Ring Chun and the dummy.
So it was, it was all a mystery.You know, I, I were, they were,
they connected. And at that early stage in my
(24:38):
life, I couldn't, I didn't thinkthey were.
I just looked at them, you know,put them in different
compartments. They they they you know, this
was Kung Fu, this was karate, this was back me.
This was ring Chun, this was joylived, but this was Hong Goon,
you know, and and I saw them andthen gradually it began to occur
(24:59):
to me that like families, you know, they might just be related
and and it turns out that they were.
But I think that to to add something really functional
important, if you look at particularly the ring turn the
(25:20):
and the Reichi series, they don't have backward steps, which
supports what Tom said in terms of the practicality of using the
short dated weapon. You know, I've made a few
mistakes in the filming of of stuff where I'm doing backward
steps. I put my hands up, but is it one
(25:41):
of the downsides of of any kind?You know, and I call myself an
author that I've published some books.
But imagine having if you in theUK, imagine someone you know,
you're having a discussion and someone and, and it's an
academic discussion and someone drags out your, your your own O
(26:01):
level exam material or your yourO level essay for English.
You know, that's the way I see it.
My first book was like my O levels.
Let's do this a bit better. My first book was like my A
levels. My second book was like my
degree. Third book was like the masters,
4th books like the PhD. That's kind of how I see it.
(26:23):
And some detractors in the past vote safe from which country?
It doesn't matter where they come from.
They were critical saying, well,Johnson keeps changing his mind.
1st it's one thing and then it'smeditation and now it's weapons.
You know well who doesn't grow and evolve, You know well, you
(26:45):
know if you don't grow and evolve, you atrophy and we grew
and so I'm not using a royal we.Let me be more clear, I talk
about myself here. I grew and learned and I spent
huge amounts of time on the subject.
In fact, it wouldn't be unrealistic to say I've
dedicated A substantial portion of my life to this subject
(27:10):
That's a bit passionate. What I mean by it is that you
change as you learn. But it's good if there's a
record. And in the within the coterie,
we do have a record. So it's a bit of a long winded
answer to your question, Sunir, but I did eventually see a
similarity between the Monk fist.
(27:32):
Richard, my good friend Simon Leahy showed me other senior
Canadian master artist. He was great.
Came popped over one day on a trip to England and showed me
showed me his version of the Chinese forms.
I lived with the Chinese forms for a long time, but it took
(27:55):
longer than probably it should have been, but have been a bit
quicker just to see the how these gelled together and to see
the commonality and the common threads which which we can now
explain. Which is why we can take these
excursions into ringtone, because the route, its origins
and thinking are identical with the weighty routes and thinking.
(28:20):
The only difference is the function, the job.
You know, one's a bladed weapon,one's a policing weapon, but we
can, but we can do this now. So here's a point to hang on to
those close range weapon using styles don't step back.
And if they do and and Sasan, Katherine Weichi is the Sasan is
(28:45):
a great example. The only time it does that, it
leaps back, which we've mentioned before, when the
substance hits the fan, so to speak.
And the, you know, that sword isloose and free and, or that pole
on whatever it is, that weapon is free.
And the, the, the defender leapsout the way, picks up one leg,
(29:05):
raises one hand above the head and hooks backward with the
other hand. You know, a, a, a triple all,
all, all you can do because obviously you have to stand on
one leg to get out the way. But then entry is regained
immediately and it's back to thethe close range that Tom has
stressed throughout our podcasts.
(29:26):
And the point is that there the backward step doesn't happen in
these systems. So, Tom, bringing it back.
To. We're saying Sanchin is
preserved in Waitroo. That's that's been specific,
very specific with the words here.
Sanchin is preserved in Waitroo.The sanction preserved in the.
(29:52):
Sanchin the Sanchin, the one Sanchin to rule them all is
preserved in Weichiru. We were just talking about the
evolution progress. What are your thoughts there on
the evolution of it from China? Well, I mean, you know, it's
(30:15):
once the functions lost. Anyone can, when you know, we've
said this before, anyone can do whatever they want with it
really. And which is what we, what we
find. So you find all kinds of
different ideas attached to whatyou why you do it as part of
karate now or something like that.
But yeah, I, I, I don't really have anything to do with that
(30:39):
myself because I'm only interested in what it was
originally for. And I that that's the reason,
you know, we go on a on and on about that sanction is it's so
concise. There's there's nothing in it
which doesn't have a very specific function geared towards
(31:02):
the the drawing and usage of a pair of side.
So Nathan mentioned the opening being dropped in Gojiri and I
can see why, because it's pretty, it's pretty obscure.
If you haven't got a pair of Si in your belt and you're not
drawing them out, why would you do that kind of movement?
It doesn't really add anything. But it's because this is so well
(31:25):
organised. Whoever put it together is, you
know, brilliant because that organisation of three sections
and walk in a circle and you know, the consistency in the
repetitions and all the rest of it, they put something together
that was pure function and no flourishes, no myth, nothing.
(31:46):
And he later became other things.
And so it's it's that, for want of a better word, purity, just
fun in terms of function that gave rise to the idea that we
could speculate. I wonder if it was the
prototype, was it the one that kind of gave the idea?
That's a really clever idea. We're going to have that for our
(32:08):
Kung Fu style. We we should have that for our
Marshall. And it seems to be the case, as
Nathan's explained elsewhere, that the, the Sild and Tau
serves a similar function for the Wing Chun.
So it's not that it's San Chin, it's that the idea that there's
a preparatory form or forms. So there's the, because these
(32:31):
tools, weapons require skilful development.
There are things that you need to practise in order to be
effective with them, grips and and all that stuff which we
talked about before and things like that.
So it's a good. Idea to have a Sanchin when the
functions lost due to the weapons ban or shifting cultures
and and all the rest of it. That idea of a preparatory form
(32:56):
can become something else, whichit probably did in all these
different systems. Which is why we have all these
different Kung Fu ideas and whattheir Sanchins prepare them for.
And it's the same in Go Guru that Nathan touched on at the
beginning, the ideas of what Miyagi's Sanchin is prep
preparing for. But the idea that it's a
(33:18):
preparatory form and a fundamental training method runs
through all of them. Yeah, that's just in terms of
where you go with it. That's up to you.
Well, you know, applied sanctionis quite, this can be
problematic for in terms of empty hands.
(33:41):
And we had we had to address that within Koduru.
So I mean applied sanction the centre around the, the three
sections into which it we cat isdivided.
But if we're not sure, if you don't know exactly what they're
for, then it it it becomes problematic.
(34:03):
And due to the reconstructed that sorry, reconstructed and
you know, non, non specific nature of Gojirou Santin and and
the fact that it's used for semitesting and has no directing
applications, it's quite difficult, unlike with, for
(34:28):
instance, Nahantin or the Waiti Santin to come up with a single
set of applications. And I think it was in the 1967
book published by George Matson on on which you do karate, which
which you know, which is an excellent, it's you know, in
which he covers the the sanctionand the sashan.
(34:50):
And my goodness, I got a first look at that probably in very
early on in my career. But the he, he paraphrases what
he was told by Waichi Canny, histeacher, son of the founder
(35:11):
Cambon Waichi, who said he was very respectful towards Gojiru
Sanchin. But he said, well, Gojiru
Sanchin is an exercise. That's how he classed it.
And that word is, that's verbatim.
That's a quote. Camden Waichi referred to Gojiru
Sanchez as an exercise. I've just got one point to add
(35:33):
to that I remember reading yearsago, this is before the
Internet, this is when I was doing Go Drew that Miyagi was
influenced by Charles Atlas's dynamic tension exercises.
Oh, yes, yes, Well said. Yes.
I can't remember the moment. I remember reading it, so it was
a long time ago. And I thought, yeah, that makes
(35:57):
sense. Makes sense because of what he
was doing with it, yeah. Yeah, it's a great.
That's a nice progression as well, isn't it?
Because if you've got a form without, you've got no idea what
the movements are for. Adding some isometric and and
heavy breathing gives it some utility.
(36:17):
Yeah, yeah. Well, just got in, if I could,
to finish that point, that cannywaitie said that in his view go
to was an Santian was an exercise, whereas, and this is
quite a critical point, whereas the waitie Santian was a catter.
(36:41):
And what he was in my view obliquely implying or saying
was, you know, ours is kind of the original and I'm not
supporting that or not, you know, not one way or the other.
And I have my own personal view,but you know, it, it it's this
question has been in play for rather a long time and and yet
(37:05):
it still remains the case that it would appear that both
versions came from the same samesource.
And as Tom says, at least with the with the, the weighty
version is so accurate and has an actual application.
OK, it might be worth mentioninghow we have tackled the problem
(37:28):
of what to do with the with the a sanction that we were going to
use empty handed, not with weapons.
So we're so far it might give the impression that we only are
interested in the wait TV sanction with the side, but
that's not the case. In fact, one of our core kata is
pretty much the, the, the, the version used by Gojiru.
And we've explored the one with the turns and the one without.
(37:50):
But whatever you want to call itit, they are fundamentally
they're both the Qatar found within Gojirou.
Because we are a system based onpushing hands and contact
reflexes and risk to risk grappling, then it was no shock,
no surprise that we would seek to interpret it that way
(38:10):
creatively. And we had a very good model as
a teacher and that model was theNihanshib.
So it could be argued that we extrapolated from Lohengian and
creatively interpreted Sanchian.And if anyone thought that or
said that they would be completely correct 100%.
(38:34):
So we, we saw the the nature of the twist and the grip,
recognise that the elbow could turn only in two directions,
recognise the three joints, the the, the wrist, the elbow and
the shoulder. And if you could control all
three, you would be locking the against the spine.
(38:54):
And we learned all of that from Nihanshin.
And so we had a good teacher. And so, and then combining that
with the ability to do this by feeling in touch, a bit of the
quite Chang pains coming in here, a bit of the feeling in
touch and not the vision and looking and not anything done on
a gap. But it could be done almost like
(39:15):
wrestling and could be done without prearranging and still
produce the the shapes and formswithin the cater either to grip
and twist and control or in the case of the rocker shoe or the
10 show, to escape, escape of being gripped.
And then bingo, we had somethingthat just worked so well and,
(39:36):
and that's how we got to applying the Gojiru Sanchin in,
in a very sort of, I suppose, without being gone through in a
very contact reflex way. And no, it's not a copy of Wing
China or anything else. We only use the shapes in the
(39:57):
Sanchin, the rocker chute and then my henshin.
And we use them when we apply them.
They're, as you can see from thefilm footage, they're pretty
much as they're found in the kata.
Well, this, the sanshin is like,it's basically a framework for
the others. That's how I used to think about
it. That's how I used to, you know,
(40:20):
consider it because it's just you can find the same shapes in
Rockashua and in dimension. It's the same, yeah.
The same leverage, the same. Yeah, accidental, but it's
there. I, I think it's, it's not
accidental. I mean it goes, it goes back to
what Tom mentioned and and it speaks to Sanchin is a good idea
(40:46):
having a Sanchin. Is a good idea.
Having a Sanchin is a good idea for it has everything, all the
positions as you just said, the leverage, the triangulation, the
positioning, it is all there. It's in it.
(41:07):
But the preservation, when we'resaying the preservation is in
the waichi, something came to mind, almost like when cultures,
when people move around, you know, they migrate to other
countries and move around, they preserve their culture in the
(41:31):
new place more than the people left in the old.
Country some chief in there. That just observation, you know,
So Americans celebrate Halloweenmore than the Brits here.
That's an interesting, that's, that's a really interesting
(41:52):
point. It's, it's almost like a
compensation. I think anthropologically I
think you're you're correct, although although different, a
different anthropologist would disagree.
But I think you made an excellent meaningful point,
which also might explain why some of the some of the original
(42:15):
Chinese forms can be found in Okinawa but no longer in China.
That's interesting. Good point with regard to the
previous comments that and I'm not disagreeing because this is
a bit of a loaded question, but the shoren based styles don't
(42:37):
have Sanju so they don't actually have Sanju.
But I'm not really asking it as a question because I think it I
think it's Nagamine Soshin and and others have always
considered the the beginning Qatar for showing that that
(43:03):
before the Penan were invented in 19105 slash 19108 that
beginners as Nagamine Sensei said beginners used to learn
Nihanshin. So for me, ergo, therefore
basically Nihanshin is the Shorin Rue Sanchin.
(43:25):
And it's interesting. It's in three bits, it's in
three bits. It's that again.
Which brings us to Tom did mention that that was a
reoccurring thing and the Nihanshin is the same.
So I would agree with those masters from the past who said
that Nihanshin is the Sanchin ofSharin Rue.
(43:46):
So yeah, I think you're right, Tom.
The stars all have to have a Sanchin.
It's fairly helpful. Well, if you don't have it,
you're wandering around without a map and.
And sometimes you can get there.We've all done that.
(44:09):
But a map is just really handy, isn't it?
Using your analogy, Tom, But yeah.
And and so it's, it's that's themap.
It's the principle of the map and the way that what's in the
map is imparted, taught and practised and ultimately
(44:29):
applied. I think that covers it.
Well, I've just, you know, it seems to me that what we've
basically been saying is that right righty is the the bee's
knees. There are other terms that could
be used, but the Waitee is the bee's knees.
And is that some sort of partisan?
(44:53):
Does anyone here belong to a Waitee organisation or get paid
by them or even train with them anymore?
Are we from that origin? No, no, we should disclose.
We are not affiliated to or sponsored by Waitee Roo, but we
(45:16):
would value their support and have meaningful discussions.
Now I think that the the I mean the reason we using the way
she's the way she's sent in as the example is it's the best one
we've got. So it's the one that is the best
(45:38):
representation of pure function.We've got the original function,
we've unrounded it and it's the best one we've got.
Doesn't mean that it's the only one, doesn't mean there aren't
others out there, but it's a fun, it's absolutely superb
because it's so concise. 3 sections of multiples of trees
in terms of repetitions, no flourishes, no fath.
(46:02):
And I haven't found that anywhere else yet.
So yeah, it's that's could be could be a representative or the
seed of the idea that gave birthto sanctions are a good thing.
You know, having a sanction is agood idea.
(46:22):
One sanction to rule them. All.
It's, it's the principle, isn't it?
This is the principle. Yeah.
I mean, I don't think you must have one, but I think it's,
it's, it is, you know, it's a really good, it's a really good
idea if you know for tools whereyou're using a pair and you need
(46:43):
to use your limbs independently and they have different
orientations as we talked about.Before.
It's a great place to start. It's it's you could do lots of
individual drills or you could have a sanction, you know, and a
sanction is a is a, it couldn't becomes a container for a lot
more and it became lots of different things.
(47:07):
Absolutely there is a counter that listeners could level
against us. How do you know there are Well,
not you personally, Tom, how do we know there are you've seen
how many Chinese Kung Fu forms there are hundreds and
thousands. So how can you possibly my and
I've given that considerable thought over the years and and
(47:29):
having observed them, not all ofthem.
I can't possibly have seen them all.
I, I remember being with a, a senior Canadian sensei saying he
could walk his way through 60 katter and I thought, crikey,
you know, that's, that's impressive And, and he could,
(47:53):
but there's a way of thinking about this that the Sanchin
principle is like basic words and that's where we all start
when we're infants. And that's really what it is.
And you can get by in life with basic words.
But if if you do have then a Seisan and a San Cerdiu, your
karate will be like your language improving, more
(48:16):
eloquent, you can do more with it.
That's that's you know, that's that's the way I see it.
And so that for me is why the sanction approach is correct.
And as as Tom says, every style should have a Sanchin.
(48:37):
And that wraps up our initial deep dive into Sanchin.
Today, we've challenged the notion of Sanchin as merely A
dynamic tension exercise, highlighting its precise
functional routes. Specifically, as preserved in
the Waichi Ru tradition, which offers unparalleled insights
into weapon training and foundational movements, the
(49:01):
evolution of Sanchin truly reflects broader shifts in
martial arts practise and is a testament to the idea that the
simplest forms often hold the deepest wisdom.
Thank you for listening to greatkarate myths debunking legends.
Be sure to. Subscribe so you don't.
Miss our next episode where we'll continue to explore the
(49:23):
fascinating world of martial arts history.
Welcome to great karate myths debunking the legends.
Today we're diving into Sanchin,the foundational kata often
called the beginning and end of karate.
As we embark on one of many discussions on this enigmatic
kata, we ask, is there a prototype Sanchin that truly
(00:28):
underpins all others? We'll unravel its mysterious
origins, tracing its path from ancient China to Okinawa,
revealing how its meaning shifted dramatically over time.
Join us as we explore the one Sanchin to rule.
Them all. And Tom, you're going to start
(00:51):
us off. Yeah.
So over the years, as we looked at the sort, the original
functions to Sanchin, what one topic that came up and something
that we speculated on was, is there was there a prototype
(01:13):
Sanchin one that could, that wasthe source of all of the
Sanchins? Or was there an idea that was
kind of created out of the Sanchin that became the, the
base for all these different ones in all these different,
lots of different systems have come through, particularly in
the Fujian region. And so today we just thought
(01:35):
about speculating on that a little bit and how sanctions
have evolved and changed a bit and, and some of that.
So the starting point is that the Sanchin that we're
suggesting or of speculating on that might be the prototype is
the one that's been preserved inWeichi Riu, which was brought
from China by Camden Reichi. After studying it there and
(01:59):
learning it there to Oki, he brought it to Okinawa and it
became the foundation for for Weichi Riu.
And many, many years later, Nathan discovered the original
function to be for training and development for the use of a
pair of Si. And as we practised and explored
(02:22):
it and discussed it, some of some things about that
particular sanction really made it stand out from the other
sanctions that were also kind ofon the periphery that you might
find in White Crane or Five Ancestor Fist or other style
monk fist, things like that. And it's really, really concise.
(02:46):
So everything in that cater is pure function.
So the opening section is is. I mean, I'll use to describe it,
but we can link the video. Taking hold of the SI and
drawing them, bringing them intoan open position, working
through the grips and changes and the different positions and
(03:09):
orientations of the SI, the basic movements and so on are
all trained in ascension. There are three sections.
All with multiples repetitions. Are in multiples of three.
Which is again something that will stand out later as we
(03:29):
explain a bit more. There's no flourishes, there's
no added extras, there's no no stylistics, no animal movements
or noises or anything that you might find in some of the
Fujianese Kung Fu systems. And so this sort of
representation of pure function lead to the speculation that it
might be or could be possibly a prototype that the other sent
(03:54):
other stylists drew on or martial artists drew on to
create different systems during the Qing Dynasty.
And the house and the whys of that we can talk about later.
But yeah, that's my sort of opening point on that.
OK. Nathan, regarding the shared
origins, could you develop that point about the common source of
(04:15):
the sanction variations? Yeah.
So we we see broadly put lots ofgroups all over the world
practise sanction, but disturb if we were to go back a century,
we could say that there's a Gojiru and Waituru in Okinawa
that spread out all over the world.
(04:36):
Obviously there are lots of Chinese sanctions and we'll get
to that. But interesting that if we look
at a little slight historical bit, it would appear that Cambun
Weichi learned from the same teacher as Megichojin's formal
(04:58):
teacher Higashi on a Cano. So Cambun Weichi was the founder
of the Wechi Rukharate with its particular Sanchin, the one
we're discussing. But Sanchin was already on all
Canaro by the time Cambun Weichieventually took it there.
Actually, he took it to Japan first.
When he came back from China, hedidn't go directly to Okinawa.
(05:19):
He spent some time in Japan and was persuaded by a student he
was teaching or somebody who knew to actually start teaching,
which he did. Point being, the Nyghi Chodan's
teacher and Cambun Waitsi both had the same teacher.
They had the teacher one crew 1 Dojo in China, so it's common.
(05:45):
Source but by the time Waichi Cameron had taken his material,
his version of the cat of the original version, as we're
suggesting Higashi Ona's group, which grew through Meagi Trojan
Sensi and Duo Duhatsu, they had already were already counting
the first. And so the change had occurred
(06:08):
in Okinawa before Richie Cambroncould get his version kicked
off, which gave rise to two different so-called styles or
versions which actually had sprung out of the same bojo so
cater for this differentiation. The names were loosely coined
Pangae Noon to explain the waitchi versions of the kata,
(06:32):
and someone came up with the term Kingae Noon to as as a
precursor from Yagi Chojin senses Gojulu.
It's just my view that they camefrom the same source.
I'm not alone in that. You know, I think it might be
shared by Patrick McCarthy, although, yeah, we have to check
(06:54):
that. Yeah.
Like something I forgot because it's quite important.
You can see that if you're looking at the go to the UK, you
can see that Maggie chosen sincehe he discarded the original
opening of the Sanchin cat as you as you see it in in in the
weight. Instead, he adopted the
(07:16):
Musubudachi, the heels together position with the hands crossed
left palm over the over the right fingers pointing down and
and in fact, he adopted that forthe opening of all Kojudu kata.
(07:37):
It's it's it's it's odd that well, not odd, but it's the the
the this hand position is is used in is often used in surely
Cata for Nihantine is the key 1 and it it hadn't been seen and
still isn't in in other versionsat all, particularly in Waitiru.
You don't see that Waitiru stillopens the cata.
(07:58):
And what I would say is, is Fujianese in a Fujianese where
yeah. And I think that going through,
but it is with the closed fist, you can see it's clearly it.
I would say it's different. I think the open hand likely
came first, which is where we'reheading with all of this.
(08:21):
So it's not really two differentthings.
One is an adaptation likely of the other.
And it's interesting finally to note here in this bit go through
Sesen and Sansebury start the same way once they're open with
the fists being closed. But the waiti say son and son
say to you do not. So there's a they've already
(08:45):
diverged at a very early stage. But I think my point is that
they are likely from a common source.
So let's let's go back, Tom, let's look at that common source
that we're saying that and and as Wei Chi what we're saying
Wei. Chi is the.
Prototype for all these centuries.
Well, it's preserved in the Wei Chi.
(09:08):
So the, you know, Camden wage, he didn't create that sanction.
He learnt it. He learnt it interestingly.
So it's important to say when wesay Weichi Sanchin that that
might be kind of it's not wait, is the sanction preserved in
wage? So it's a Chinese Sanchin.
And when you compare it against other sanctions, you, you find a
(09:33):
far, I think a list of nice internal consistencies.
You know, the numbers are consistent, the sections are
consistent and you don't find that in the other sanctions.
So you also don't find a backwards step.
And in unravelling the usage of the site, backward steps are not
(09:53):
particularly that functional andyou don't tend to find them.
And what you do find in sanctions are backward steps.
And so that's the later development and perhaps a
deviation might have been a deviation from a, from a
prototype as well. So you have the introduction of
bows, fists and and backward steps.
(10:16):
And you also have irregular repetitions as well.
So in Section 2, you have 3 repetitions.
Section 3 you have 3 repetitionsin the sanction in Waichi, but
in a lot of the Fujianese you'llfind a couple of repetitions, 2
of 1 technique, 2 of another, then one of one.
(10:37):
So there's a that's not congruent with, you know, this
very neatly ordered practise which has been put together for
cultivating and the fundamental usage of the PSI as far as we
can tell. Anyway, in the open, in the
Section 1 of the sanction, you, you, you walk around in a circle
(11:00):
doing repetitions. So I suppose, I mean, Nathan
suggested this, that you could just walk that circle for as
long as you needed to. So it wouldn't be that you would
just turn twice and do 12 repetitions.
You keep going for as long as you wanted to.
And, and the same thing could besaid of Section 2 and Section 3.
Actually you can, you can loop that pattern of Section 3 and
(11:25):
Section 2 doesn't move anyway. So that's quite interesting that
it's neatly ordered in that way for practising as long as you
need to. And you don't find that
consistency in the other, the other sanctions, they're quite
irregular in the ordering and and and structure of it compared
to that lovely consistent sanction we find in the Waichi.
(11:51):
Yeah. That's that's sort of above the
next point I think on that. Yeah, look, if we shift over
looking at the Miyagi Sanchin, or rather the Gojiru Sanchin,
because it is the case that Miyagi Chojin made it clear that
he created the short Sanchin andthen he did tidy it up.
(12:17):
He simplified it. His Sanchin is very minimal,
which is why we say that it's it's really difficult to get to
the bottom of of what what it's doing if the fists are clenched.
So to differentiate that in our understanding of the weight
sheet, Sanchon is really clear that a size being used a pair of
(12:42):
sigh. Mr Megi Megi Chojin says he was
teaching no such thing. Therefore, Dojuru didn't have a
bunkai or an application to Santin at all, which created
then or really developed the tradition of Ossimi semi
(13:04):
testing. The fierce slaps and the
shoulders and the testing of thestands, all accompanied by
sonorous deep breathing and and so on and lots of dynamic
tension which modern practitioners have found out to
their detriment is quite injurious for one's health.
(13:25):
I think if you looked at teachers like Mark Bishop, who
he he, he suggested that I softened up my Sanjin when we
met 30 odd years ago and I thought that was a jolly good
idea. And I think that in the absence
of an application for sanjin, ithad to be given a purpose.
(13:51):
So the idea of Iron Shirt had gone through strength, dynamic
tension was put into place to justify this kata, which had
been described as the foundationof karate, the beginning and the
end of karate. This is karate and a modern
Western line would look at that and say, well that's great, but
(14:11):
what does it do? You know, what's it for?
Whereas with the original or, orwhat we're saying is considering
to be the original Santian, thatquestion doesn't arise because
it's very clear what it's for. It's very systematic.
And as Tom has said, you know, you can do each section in the
(14:32):
way that military people might do drills.
You can go round that in that first section in that sort of
circle, you know, whatever it is, that sort of terrier ring
sort of shape. As long as you want to train, if
you want to train hard, do it lots of times.
No need to keep opening and closing the catter.
(14:55):
You can just keep doing that section over and over.
That's pretty typical of any kind of of military or militia
drill, which ethos is actually inherited by by modern or
postmodern or modern karate. Modern 1st and then postmodern
in terms of blood, sweat and tears in the Dojo.
(15:17):
In other words, one more repetition, just once more, one
more which you know, coming fromyour Japanese instructor means
you're going to be doing that until you're falling down.
Well, that was my experience in the 70s.
Point being, if you know what the cater does, fine.
If you don't, then you've got a bit of a problem.
(15:38):
You need to justify your your core cater.
And that's in my view, how this Sumi Ossumi testing came about.
Now I'm not going to put that onthe OR canals because similar
practises can be seen in the inherited or passed on by Kung
Fu stars Lazi from southern China.
(16:02):
And you can see that they had that as the tradition
themselves, which suggested to me some years ago that that lack
of knowledge of the function, especially when the the kata
varied and changed and but blended with all sorts of
different things when the function was lost.
(16:24):
You know, that was a very popular.
What I mean by that is the testing, the muscle tone and the
slapping and the ossomy, the, the the testing that often
accompanies demonstrations of Sanjin.
That was already the norm in in within some gong fu style.
So I think it's that aspect thatGo Gojiru inherited, but you do
(16:50):
see it in the in the Waitchi rueas well.
But yet the Waitchi Rue preserved that Qatar that
Santian and the Santian and the Santeru, whereas the Gojiru
Qatar say Santin say san and Santeru have already changed.
So you. Get that?
That lovely concise practise andmethod in the Santin preserved
(17:15):
in the Waitchi. It makes me wonder if that was
the kind of route or the source for the art.
Maybe just as an idea that a good a good martial arts system
would need a sanching. Well, that's a good.
That's a good point. That's a that falls the basis of
(17:36):
yeah, yeah, that falls the basisof the thinking.
This is where karate begins. Because it does.
In the weighting. Yes, yes, yes.
Well, I, I, yeah. And I mean in the Fujini
systems, so in the Qing dynasty,you get this emergence of all
these different, so alleged Shaolin based styles, like 5
ancestor fist and all these different, you know, Sanchin
(17:59):
based Kung Fu systems. And they share a lot of
similarities and you know, there's there's a certainly some
very strong crossover with, you know, the different systems and
things like that. But I wonder if it wasn't simply
Sanchin in the pure SI Sanchin that we're discussing.
(18:22):
But perhaps it might have inspired the idea that a good
Kung Fu school would need a Sanchin.
That core method of you're goingto need your steps, you're going
to need your positions and all the rest of it.
Because it's very hard to explain why there's so many
Sanchins and particularly all the different White Crane and
Five Ancestor Fist and Monk Fistand Atmai, and they're all very,
(18:47):
very similar, but different mythologies and different ideas
attached to them as well. But they all have ascensions.
So yeah, it's just something that sort of came to mind.
Was it? Is it the idea because you don't
have attached to the sanction inthe wait sheet, You don't have
attached any idea of White Craneor you know, Monkfit or anything
(19:13):
like that. It's just the Sanchin and we're
in the pure sight in its original function with the sigh.
None of that stuff is seen, appears to be attached to it or
necessary. It doesn't add anything to it.
So something distinct happened in the Qing Dynasty that may
have I leads me to suspect that Sanchin is at least as early as
(19:37):
the Ming dynasty and something shifted with the, you know, with
the transition into the Qingdaidesteem terms of martial thinking
and the development and directions of martial arts,
particularly sanction based ones.
Yeah. Now that that that brings me, I
(19:58):
hear hear, I agree, but I and wehad must be of an excellent
conversation we had. When when we discussed this, so
I don't know how long ago, at least probably a year ago, but
the the idea that, but I used this terminology before all this
explanation. If we looked at it like that
(20:19):
these that the cattle were like scripture.
If you're going to have a religion, I'm not saying you
should or shouldn't, but in religion that there's scripture
and the idea of the script. The idea of the religion is to
live the scripture and the idea of, of, of, of the training is
to live the cattle is to employ it and get use it.
(20:41):
So the idea of having scripture is not just to read it, but it's
to use it and, and, and I, I that's makes perfect sense.
So any style is going to have itscripture first.
So it starts on the premise thathere's the body, the corpus of
knowledge, here's our belief system, here's here is our
stuff. And then, you know, this is
(21:02):
what, and now you're expected togo into the world and, and do it
be good. And whatever the, whatever the,
whatever's required of you in a particular religion.
And I, I, this is AI think a, a common denominator.
But I, I, I think that to answerTom's or to try to answer Tom's
(21:23):
question, something happened in the Ching.
Yeah, I, I think it did. And I think we've visited that
already. And I think one of the big
things that happened in the Ching was the weapons ban, the
defeat of the Ming. And we discussed it.
We've already discussed it this at considerable length.
So the defeat of the Ming by theChing and the ushering in of a
(21:45):
new dynasty saw that draconian weapons ban, one of several and
yeah, which then, you know, we can't know for sure because we
weren't there. But the IT would appear that the
forms continued without the weapons and then without the
(22:05):
weapons. It's just my view that there
that's where the potential for corruption.
That's the wrong word, really, because that implies that we're
talking about something that's pure.
That's a recipe for confusion, and for bits of forms being
jumbled together for reasons other than their direct
(22:27):
practical. Value just stepping back and.
And we're just talking about some of the, some of the
sanctions in, in China. Nathan, you, you wrote about
back in the 90s, so the early 90s in Barefoot's End.
(22:48):
And you, you, you look at the similarities within the Wing
Chung Woollen Dummy, the Five Ancestors, and crucial White
Crane dragon form. Yeah, I, I, I grew up with
literally the, one of my very close friends from the age of 11
(23:10):
onwards. When we were both 13 or so, he
went off to he's, I grew up seeing, knowing and seeing the
can't say I practised it. So we were pretty close friends.
He did the Galbao toy of, of Buckney, which is interesting
(23:36):
that we've not been aware of that type of Kung Fu and toilet
foot since I was a teenager. And and this chap was brilliant.
He was the biggest, baddest, meanest, toughest of all of us.
Even though he was excellent, hewas physically superb and his,
(23:57):
his, his life belief was that you needed to be fast and
strong. And I, you know, having gone
through an esoteric phase and I think it turns out he was, he
was right. But I, I, I was aware of these
forms from a very, fairly early period, certainly by the last
(24:18):
couple of year, last year at school and, and on into 1718 and
19. And I had started my experiences
with like Ring Chun and the dummy.
So it was, it was all a mystery.You know, I, I were, they were,
they connected. And at that early stage in my
(24:38):
life, I couldn't, I didn't thinkthey were.
I just looked at them, you know,put them in different
compartments. They they they you know, this
was Kung Fu, this was karate, this was back me.
This was ring Chun, this was joylived, but this was Hong Goon,
you know, and and I saw them andthen gradually it began to occur
(24:59):
to me that like families, you know, they might just be related
and and it turns out that they were.
But I think that to to add something really functional
important, if you look at particularly the ring turn the
(25:20):
and the Reichi series, they don't have backward steps, which
supports what Tom said in terms of the practicality of using the
short dated weapon. You know, I've made a few
mistakes in the filming of of stuff where I'm doing backward
steps. I put my hands up, but is it one
(25:41):
of the downsides of of any kind?You know, and I call myself an
author that I've published some books.
But imagine having if you in theUK, imagine someone you know,
you're having a discussion and someone and, and it's an
academic discussion and someone drags out your, your your own O
(26:01):
level exam material or your yourO level essay for English.
You know, that's the way I see it.
My first book was like my O levels.
Let's do this a bit better. My first book was like my A
levels. My second book was like my
degree. Third book was like the masters,
4th books like the PhD. That's kind of how I see it.
(26:23):
And some detractors in the past vote safe from which country?
It doesn't matter where they come from.
They were critical saying, well,Johnson keeps changing his mind.
1st it's one thing and then it'smeditation and now it's weapons.
You know well who doesn't grow and evolve, You know well, you
(26:45):
know if you don't grow and evolve, you atrophy and we grew
and so I'm not using a royal we.Let me be more clear, I talk
about myself here. I grew and learned and I spent
huge amounts of time on the subject.
In fact, it wouldn't be unrealistic to say I've
dedicated A substantial portion of my life to this subject
(27:10):
That's a bit passionate. What I mean by it is that you
change as you learn. But it's good if there's a
record. And in the within the coterie,
we do have a record. So it's a bit of a long winded
answer to your question, Sunir, but I did eventually see a
similarity between the Monk fist.
(27:32):
Richard, my good friend Simon Leahy showed me other senior
Canadian master artist. He was great.
Came popped over one day on a trip to England and showed me
showed me his version of the Chinese forms.
I lived with the Chinese forms for a long time, but it took
(27:55):
longer than probably it should have been, but have been a bit
quicker just to see the how these gelled together and to see
the commonality and the common threads which which we can now
explain. Which is why we can take these
excursions into ringtone, because the route, its origins
and thinking are identical with the weighty routes and thinking.
(28:20):
The only difference is the function, the job.
You know, one's a bladed weapon,one's a policing weapon, but we
can, but we can do this now. So here's a point to hang on to
those close range weapon using styles don't step back.
And if they do and and Sasan, Katherine Weichi is the Sasan is
(28:45):
a great example. The only time it does that, it
leaps back, which we've mentioned before, when the
substance hits the fan, so to speak.
And the, you know, that sword isloose and free and, or that pole
on whatever it is, that weapon is free.
And the, the, the defender leapsout the way, picks up one leg,
(29:05):
raises one hand above the head and hooks backward with the
other hand. You know, a, a, a triple all,
all, all you can do because obviously you have to stand on
one leg to get out the way. But then entry is regained
immediately and it's back to thethe close range that Tom has
stressed throughout our podcasts.
(29:26):
And the point is that there the backward step doesn't happen in
these systems. So, Tom, bringing it back.
To. We're saying Sanchin is
preserved in Waitroo. That's that's been specific,
very specific with the words here.
Sanchin is preserved in Waitroo.The sanction preserved in the.
(29:52):
Sanchin the Sanchin, the one Sanchin to rule them all is
preserved in Weichiru. We were just talking about the
evolution progress. What are your thoughts there on
the evolution of it from China? Well, I mean, you know, it's
(30:15):
once the functions lost. Anyone can, when you know, we've
said this before, anyone can do whatever they want with it
really. And which is what we, what we
find. So you find all kinds of
different ideas attached to whatyou why you do it as part of
karate now or something like that.
But yeah, I, I, I don't really have anything to do with that
(30:39):
myself because I'm only interested in what it was
originally for. And I that that's the reason,
you know, we go on a on and on about that sanction is it's so
concise. There's there's nothing in it
which doesn't have a very specific function geared towards
(31:02):
the the drawing and usage of a pair of side.
So Nathan mentioned the opening being dropped in Gojiri and I
can see why, because it's pretty, it's pretty obscure.
If you haven't got a pair of Si in your belt and you're not
drawing them out, why would you do that kind of movement?
It doesn't really add anything. But it's because this is so well
(31:25):
organised. Whoever put it together is, you
know, brilliant because that organisation of three sections
and walk in a circle and you know, the consistency in the
repetitions and all the rest of it, they put something together
that was pure function and no flourishes, no myth, nothing.
(31:46):
And he later became other things.
And so it's it's that, for want of a better word, purity, just
fun in terms of function that gave rise to the idea that we
could speculate. I wonder if it was the
prototype, was it the one that kind of gave the idea?
That's a really clever idea. We're going to have that for our
(32:08):
Kung Fu style. We we should have that for our
Marshall. And it seems to be the case, as
Nathan's explained elsewhere, that the, the Sild and Tau
serves a similar function for the Wing Chun.
So it's not that it's San Chin, it's that the idea that there's
a preparatory form or forms. So there's the, because these
(32:31):
tools, weapons require skilful development.
There are things that you need to practise in order to be
effective with them, grips and and all that stuff which we
talked about before and things like that.
So it's a good. Idea to have a Sanchin when the
functions lost due to the weapons ban or shifting cultures
and and all the rest of it. That idea of a preparatory form
(32:56):
can become something else, whichit probably did in all these
different systems. Which is why we have all these
different Kung Fu ideas and whattheir Sanchins prepare them for.
And it's the same in Go Guru that Nathan touched on at the
beginning, the ideas of what Miyagi's Sanchin is prep
preparing for. But the idea that it's a
(33:18):
preparatory form and a fundamental training method runs
through all of them. Yeah, that's just in terms of
where you go with it. That's up to you.
Well, you know, applied sanctionis quite, this can be
problematic for in terms of empty hands.
(33:41):
And we had we had to address that within Koduru.
So I mean applied sanction the centre around the, the three
sections into which it we cat isdivided.
But if we're not sure, if you don't know exactly what they're
for, then it it it becomes problematic.
(34:03):
And due to the reconstructed that sorry, reconstructed and
you know, non, non specific nature of Gojirou Santin and and
the fact that it's used for semitesting and has no directing
applications, it's quite difficult, unlike with, for
(34:28):
instance, Nahantin or the Waiti Santin to come up with a single
set of applications. And I think it was in the 1967
book published by George Matson on on which you do karate, which
which you know, which is an excellent, it's you know, in
which he covers the the sanctionand the sashan.
(34:50):
And my goodness, I got a first look at that probably in very
early on in my career. But the he, he paraphrases what
he was told by Waichi Canny, histeacher, son of the founder
(35:11):
Cambon Waichi, who said he was very respectful towards Gojiru
Sanchin. But he said, well, Gojiru
Sanchin is an exercise. That's how he classed it.
And that word is, that's verbatim.
That's a quote. Camden Waichi referred to Gojiru
Sanchez as an exercise. I've just got one point to add
(35:33):
to that I remember reading yearsago, this is before the
Internet, this is when I was doing Go Drew that Miyagi was
influenced by Charles Atlas's dynamic tension exercises.
Oh, yes, yes, Well said. Yes.
I can't remember the moment. I remember reading it, so it was
a long time ago. And I thought, yeah, that makes
(35:57):
sense. Makes sense because of what he
was doing with it, yeah. Yeah, it's a great.
That's a nice progression as well, isn't it?
Because if you've got a form without, you've got no idea what
the movements are for. Adding some isometric and and
heavy breathing gives it some utility.
(36:17):
Yeah, yeah. Well, just got in, if I could,
to finish that point, that cannywaitie said that in his view go
to was an Santian was an exercise, whereas, and this is
quite a critical point, whereas the waitie Santian was a catter.
(36:41):
And what he was in my view obliquely implying or saying
was, you know, ours is kind of the original and I'm not
supporting that or not, you know, not one way or the other.
And I have my own personal view,but you know, it, it it's this
question has been in play for rather a long time and and yet
(37:05):
it still remains the case that it would appear that both
versions came from the same samesource.
And as Tom says, at least with the with the, the weighty
version is so accurate and has an actual application.
OK, it might be worth mentioninghow we have tackled the problem
(37:28):
of what to do with the with the a sanction that we were going to
use empty handed, not with weapons.
So we're so far it might give the impression that we only are
interested in the wait TV sanction with the side, but
that's not the case. In fact, one of our core kata is
pretty much the, the, the, the version used by Gojiru.
And we've explored the one with the turns and the one without.
(37:50):
But whatever you want to call itit, they are fundamentally
they're both the Qatar found within Gojirou.
Because we are a system based onpushing hands and contact
reflexes and risk to risk grappling, then it was no shock,
no surprise that we would seek to interpret it that way
(38:10):
creatively. And we had a very good model as
a teacher and that model was theNihanshib.
So it could be argued that we extrapolated from Lohengian and
creatively interpreted Sanchian.And if anyone thought that or
said that they would be completely correct 100%.
(38:34):
So we, we saw the the nature of the twist and the grip,
recognise that the elbow could turn only in two directions,
recognise the three joints, the the, the wrist, the elbow and
the shoulder. And if you could control all
three, you would be locking the against the spine.
(38:54):
And we learned all of that from Nihanshin.
And so we had a good teacher. And so, and then combining that
with the ability to do this by feeling in touch, a bit of the
quite Chang pains coming in here, a bit of the feeling in
touch and not the vision and looking and not anything done on
a gap. But it could be done almost like
(39:15):
wrestling and could be done without prearranging and still
produce the the shapes and formswithin the cater either to grip
and twist and control or in the case of the rocker shoe or the
10 show, to escape, escape of being gripped.
And then bingo, we had somethingthat just worked so well and,
(39:36):
and that's how we got to applying the Gojiru Sanchin in,
in a very sort of, I suppose, without being gone through in a
very contact reflex way. And no, it's not a copy of Wing
China or anything else. We only use the shapes in the
(39:57):
Sanchin, the rocker chute and then my henshin.
And we use them when we apply them.
They're, as you can see from thefilm footage, they're pretty
much as they're found in the kata.
Well, this, the sanshin is like,it's basically a framework for
the others. That's how I used to think about
it. That's how I used to, you know,
(40:20):
consider it because it's just you can find the same shapes in
Rockashua and in dimension. It's the same, yeah.
The same leverage, the same. Yeah, accidental, but it's
there. I, I think it's, it's not
accidental. I mean it goes, it goes back to
what Tom mentioned and and it speaks to Sanchin is a good idea
(40:46):
having a Sanchin. Is a good idea.
Having a Sanchin is a good idea for it has everything, all the
positions as you just said, the leverage, the triangulation, the
positioning, it is all there. It's in it.
(41:07):
But the preservation, when we'resaying the preservation is in
the waichi, something came to mind, almost like when cultures,
when people move around, you know, they migrate to other
countries and move around, they preserve their culture in the
(41:31):
new place more than the people left in the old.
Country some chief in there. That just observation, you know,
So Americans celebrate Halloweenmore than the Brits here.
That's an interesting, that's, that's a really interesting
(41:52):
point. It's, it's almost like a
compensation. I think anthropologically I
think you're you're correct, although although different, a
different anthropologist would disagree.
But I think you made an excellent meaningful point,
which also might explain why some of the some of the original
(42:15):
Chinese forms can be found in Okinawa but no longer in China.
That's interesting. Good point with regard to the
previous comments that and I'm not disagreeing because this is
a bit of a loaded question, but the shoren based styles don't
(42:37):
have Sanju so they don't actually have Sanju.
But I'm not really asking it as a question because I think it I
think it's Nagamine Soshin and and others have always
considered the the beginning Qatar for showing that that
(43:03):
before the Penan were invented in 19105 slash 19108 that
beginners as Nagamine Sensei said beginners used to learn
Nihanshin. So for me, ergo, therefore
basically Nihanshin is the Shorin Rue Sanchin.
(43:25):
And it's interesting. It's in three bits, it's in
three bits. It's that again.
Which brings us to Tom did mention that that was a
reoccurring thing and the Nihanshin is the same.
So I would agree with those masters from the past who said
that Nihanshin is the Sanchin ofSharin Rue.
(43:46):
So yeah, I think you're right, Tom.
The stars all have to have a Sanchin.
It's fairly helpful. Well, if you don't have it,
you're wandering around without a map and.
And sometimes you can get there.We've all done that.
(44:09):
But a map is just really handy, isn't it?
Using your analogy, Tom, But yeah.
And and so it's, it's that's themap.
It's the principle of the map and the way that what's in the
map is imparted, taught and practised and ultimately
(44:29):
applied. I think that covers it.
Well, I've just, you know, it seems to me that what we've
basically been saying is that right righty is the the bee's
knees. There are other terms that could
be used, but the Waitee is the bee's knees.
And is that some sort of partisan?
(44:53):
Does anyone here belong to a Waitee organisation or get paid
by them or even train with them anymore?
Are we from that origin? No, no, we should disclose.
We are not affiliated to or sponsored by Waitee Roo, but we
(45:16):
would value their support and have meaningful discussions.
Now I think that the the I mean the reason we using the way
she's the way she's sent in as the example is it's the best one
we've got. So it's the one that is the best
(45:38):
representation of pure function.We've got the original function,
we've unrounded it and it's the best one we've got.
Doesn't mean that it's the only one, doesn't mean there aren't
others out there, but it's a fun, it's absolutely superb
because it's so concise. 3 sections of multiples of trees
in terms of repetitions, no flourishes, no fath.
(46:02):
And I haven't found that anywhere else yet.
So yeah, it's that's could be could be a representative or the
seed of the idea that gave birthto sanctions are a good thing.
You know, having a sanction is agood idea.
(46:22):
One sanction to rule them. All.
It's, it's the principle, isn't it?
This is the principle. Yeah.
I mean, I don't think you must have one, but I think it's,
it's, it is, you know, it's a really good, it's a really good
idea if you know for tools whereyou're using a pair and you need
(46:43):
to use your limbs independently and they have different
orientations as we talked about.Before.
It's a great place to start. It's it's you could do lots of
individual drills or you could have a sanction, you know, and a
sanction is a is a, it couldn't becomes a container for a lot
more and it became lots of different things.
(47:07):
Absolutely there is a counter that listeners could level
against us. How do you know there are Well,
not you personally, Tom, how do we know there are you've seen
how many Chinese Kung Fu forms there are hundreds and
thousands. So how can you possibly my and
I've given that considerable thought over the years and and
(47:29):
having observed them, not all ofthem.
I can't possibly have seen them all.
I, I remember being with a, a senior Canadian sensei saying he
could walk his way through 60 katter and I thought, crikey,
you know, that's, that's impressive And, and he could,
(47:53):
but there's a way of thinking about this that the Sanchin
principle is like basic words and that's where we all start
when we're infants. And that's really what it is.
And you can get by in life with basic words.
But if if you do have then a Seisan and a San Cerdiu, your
karate will be like your language improving, more
(48:16):
eloquent, you can do more with it.
That's that's you know, that's that's the way I see it.
And so that for me is why the sanction approach is correct.
And as as Tom says, every style should have a Sanchin.
(48:37):
And that wraps up our initial deep dive into Sanchin.
Today, we've challenged the notion of Sanchin as merely A
dynamic tension exercise, highlighting its precise
functional routes. Specifically, as preserved in
the Waichi Ru tradition, which offers unparalleled insights
into weapon training and foundational movements, the
(49:01):
evolution of Sanchin truly reflects broader shifts in
martial arts practise and is a testament to the idea that the
simplest forms often hold the deepest wisdom.
Thank you for listening to greatkarate myths debunking legends.
Be sure to. Subscribe so you don't.
Miss our next episode where we'll continue to explore the
(49:23):
fascinating world of martial arts history.
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