August 5, 2025 • 30 mins
In this Q&A episode, we tackle the big question: "What is the real context for karate kata?" We explore why these forms are the most credible evidence we have for understanding karate's history, and why relying solely on written historical documents is a dead end. We also delve into the surprising and diverse origins of kata, which may have included roles such as policing, bodyguarding, palace security, and even religious rituals. We discuss why specific versions of kata, particularly those in Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu, are considered the best-preserved and most reliable for research. Finally, we address questions about the timeline of Sanchin and other forms, speculating on their possible Ming dynasty origins.
Key Takeaways/Highlights
Relevant Links/ResourcesKeywords/TagsKarate, Kata, Martial Arts History, Okinawa, Shuri, Naha, Goju-Ryu, Shotokan, Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu, Sanchin, Ming Dynasty, Kung Fu, Bunkai.
Key Takeaways/Highlights
- Kata as Primary Sources: The kata themselves are the most reliable historical documents for understanding their original function and context, as written records are scarce.
- Diverse Original Contexts: The purpose of kata was not limited to unarmed self-defense. Their original functions likely included policing, bodyguarding, militia training, theater, and religious rituals.
- The Problem of Modern Kata: Many modern versions of kata, such as those in Shotokan and Wado-Ryu, have evolved and changed over time, obscuring their original meaning and making them problematic for historical research.
- Preserved Forms: For accurate research, it is necessary to study the best-preserved versions of kata, which are found in traditional styles like Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu.
Relevant Links/ResourcesKeywords/TagsKarate, Kata, Martial Arts History, Okinawa, Shuri, Naha, Goju-Ryu, Shotokan, Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu, Sanchin, Ming Dynasty, Kung Fu, Bunkai.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello, and thanks for joining uson Great Karate Myths Debunking
the Legends. This is our monthly Q&A episode,
and you've given us some fantastic questions.
Today, we're diving deep into the context and origins of
Qatar. We'll be answering your
questions about the historical context of these forms, their
original functions, and why someversions are more reliable for
(00:28):
research than others, and why they are the key to unlocking
their sequence. Get ready to have your
understanding of karate's past completely transformed.
So the first question is, can wetalk more about the context for
(00:48):
the kata and verify which context we are suggesting for
each kata? Well, that's a lot of Katha.
So if we looked at sort of can, it's as I said in the past, it's
27 and growing depending on the school or group.
If we looked at whatever you, I think it's probably, correct me
(01:10):
if I'm wrong, Tom or Matt, it's 15.
If you looked at Gojiru, it's 12.
And so basically a lot of the catter that are named in the
various styles that might appearto be different catter actually
are the same cater with a slightly different name.
(01:32):
So given that the the founder ofStoru Mabuni Kenwa Sensei tended
to be quite eclectic. No wrong word.
Yes, he collected. So he collected everybody's
cater and and that was some sortof 50.
So let's run with that figure unless anyone objects.
(01:53):
So we're looking at roughly 50 Karati Katta.
And when you look at the, if youlook at the say San, for example
in Goju, it's completely different from the Say San in
(02:17):
Waititi, although you. Can see your similarity.
You can, and anyone with a discerning eye can see the
likelihood of. 1. Having grown from the other, but
notwithstanding that they counted as they kind of they
have the same name. So they might be the same Qatar.
But when we look at Mad Buni Kenya's system, he did it, he
(02:41):
included sort of several versions of of say.
So all very confusing. So it's difficult to just say,
well, here are these 50 Qatar and of course the general
assumption is they're karate Qatar.
So they're they're all unarmed fatter.
They are all about unarmed self defence or unarmed fighting.
(03:05):
And as we've demonstrated, yeah,the original versions are not
but so classifying them all is atricky business really.
It's quite a big question, but II'll.
Start the ball rolling. By saying it's still judicious,
still useful and Germaine to classify the cater into we we
(03:31):
could be very picky and say intothree category categories, but
Naha surely until Marrate. But as as my, as my, as my dear
friend Simon said to me, you know, when he went on his
pilgrimage to Japan and Okinawa,in particularly in Okinawa, the
(03:52):
villages there's Thomas remindedme on a number of occasions,
they the villages of Naha Suri and Tumari are sort of two or
three miles apart. So there's no big deal there.
But if we looked at those classifications and those say
called 50 kata, it's easier to divide them into two broad
(04:15):
bases, the 2 broad groups, I begyour pardon?
And that would be Nahate and Shutrite.
So and for so in a casual way, that would be in a lazy way,
that would be Gujaru and Shottakan.
Or, if you like, Nahate and and Shurite would be primary
(04:37):
exemplars of those styles. Would be.
Matsu, Bayashi. Sharon Moo for the Theo,
Srebrenu and Gojuru, or even Wichuru for the Naha.
If we classify them into those two groups, we've got a good
starting point. Yeah.
So to get to the the contexts ofthe original functions you have
(05:00):
to you have to pass through the kata and the functions to get
there. So you know.
It's and it's holding in mind that we're talking about
something from in history, a completely different culture and
different perspectives on things.
So there's there's lots and lotsof possibilities there.
(05:21):
And it's better to start with the catter and and work back
from there. So rather than deciding, for
example, that it's unarmed self defence or, or whatever, it to
not have any assumption there. And what if you're seeking the
original function and you work backwards and you arrive at the
function, you can start to look at, well, what does the kata
(05:44):
contain? What's the content of it?
And we talked about the weight chiru, the forms preserved in
weight chiru. A lot that have that are for the
use of the site or some of the Shiri forms.
And from there you can kind of speculate on what the the
possible context for, for, for its usage was.
(06:07):
And so some of those contexts could include types of policing,
bodyguarding, palace security, guarding, militia, pirates,
theatre or performative martial arts, and also religious
rituals. So you'll find forms, go back
(06:28):
and you'll find, if you trace enough back, you'll find some
forms, not necessary just from karate, but from Kung Fu systems
that fit into those contexts. But the best route to it is to
go through the kata itself and, and, and seek those you know,
seek through the original functions.
(06:49):
And how do you know something might be policing, for example,
and policing might not be the completely correct term, but
something along those lines. Civil policing.
Well, we've talked about that already.
We've gone quite in depth on that in that it's not striking
areas which could potentially befatal and that the body of
techniques and skills are, you know, geared towards arresting
(07:13):
or disarming or you know, that kind of territory.
Then you can source it. Then you can speculate where
that that context may have been.Policing and militia.
You might be little private armies or something like that.
We done an episode on the Wing Chun and those butterfly
broadswords certainly don't seemto fit into the category of
(07:37):
policing, but certainly might align somewhere in militia,
private armies or piracy. But you don't start at the
context you you arrive at it once you've worked, you know,
working through through the Qatar.
So we've got those classifications in karate of
(07:57):
where though how that and why those forms have been collected
and arrived in Okinawa and then we go back further to China and
seek those original functions and then those original contexts
for use. Yeah.
So in essence and. Yeah, that's a.
(08:19):
A really nice summary. And what we're looking at as far
as I can understand is that we're looking at just we can say
they're either side Katter, they're grappling, they're bow
or tonfa, I think. Was that sufficient?
(08:43):
For now, because we can't, we can't speak for all of the all
of the Katter at all there. And there's so many forms.
So there might be more that we certainly haven't gone into in
any depth. So I think in terms of the forms
that we're talking about, which would be Sanchez, Saisan and
(09:08):
Sanseriu from the the naha to preserved in the Naha.
And then in the Shiri we have Nyanji, Prusanku, Gojushiho,
Pasai, Jinto and possibly 1 Shoeand Rohai.
That's that. Those are the films that we're
(09:29):
talking about at the moment. Oh, that's a, that's, that's a
nice summary, Tom. That's a perfect summary.
That would be enough. Just.
To to get a flavour of what these kata are about.
And yeah, I would. You know I would.
Say that we can't possibly know them all or know what they all
(09:50):
do because they're a rather large number of them and some
that are possibly yet to be discovered or revealed.
So yeah, that that's a good that's a good sample.
Look after you you've mentioned come principally from Matt who
by Ashley Shaw and Lew and wait to you.
(10:12):
Yeah. But those, those, the, the way
that they're performed in those styles and the way they've been
preserved seems to be the most accurate versions.
So in terms of unravelling the. So it's not that we just go to
Matsubashi roof, for example, for Kusenko, it's it's the
(10:35):
process involves looking at as many different versions as
possible, looking at the historyof those particular styles to
see what, you know, can we get adecent older version or what's
the best representation of Kusanku that we can find and see
what's possible with it in termsof exploring the original
(10:58):
functions. So there's, you know, there are,
there are certain, there's documented changes to Kusanku
that's taken place in from Shorinrou into Shojikan into
Wadaru and things like that. So it's by process, you
eliminate the ones that have gone through those changes
because the changes aren't really made based on function.
(11:20):
So, and it's the same with the Gojiru.
The Gojiru versions have changedsignificantly as well.
So again, not based on knowledgeof the original function.
So we'd eliminate the ones that we can certainly prove or
evidence have changed. And yeah, so it's quite
(11:43):
remarkable the the, the, the concise detail that's preserved.
They're really, really well, well preserved, particularly for
our purpose, which is to try to understand something of what was
intended for them in the beginning.
Yeah, excellent point. And it is the case that when
this research within our group was first conducted, Kinko
(12:10):
Berkey. So the actual start of the
research for the karate was, yeah, 35 years ago.
And the struggle was, I know, disrespect to Shottakan, as
everyone knows. I have considerable respect for
the Shottakan practitioners and their endeavours, their
capabilities and their Christmaslines and their dedication.
(12:35):
But it was very difficult to tryand unravel the the the the kata
functions based on the versions that we found so changed within
Shotokan and within the Wadaroo.As much as we wanted to be
inclusive. And in fact, we did have to turn
(12:57):
to the the very conservative with a small scene, nothing to
do with politics, but the well conserved cater of the Matsu by
Ashley Shore in Rue as as recorded by Nagamine Ocean
Sensei and of course, the Waititi RU recorded by Waititi
(13:19):
Camburn. Well, Hesley it was George
Matson, the very senior AmericanKarnataka.
But these, these versions, they had an accuracy that led to that
unlocked. It gave the capability for for
us to actually find out what this what they did.
(13:40):
The Schottokan were Schottokan, whatever you were problematic to
use in the sense that they had evolved and changed.
No criticism implied there, but they were.
We were no longer able to unlockthem because the codes had
changed and the forms had changed, not hugely but enough
(14:04):
to obscure the the origins and the intentions.
And whilst the performers perform them, you know the
karate can perform them, you know extremely well and
according to their traditions and the way they were taught.
But the the changes that have been made were made it
(14:27):
impossible to use those versions.
And in fact, one can understand what you know the the value 1
can appreciate the value of of of the Matt Tiberiashi and the
waiti forms because they have been preserved intact.
(14:49):
Matt, Kev, do you have anything to add if we move on?
Well, I think I, I was just going to mention it was just
coming into my mind that it's, it's a point that's been made
before, but it, it's worth repeating.
I think that the road to the contexts for the catter are the
(15:09):
catter themselves. We're we're not, I mean, at this
stage, we, we, we're unlikely, Ithink to on earth, you know,
historical documents that that lay out the A's, B's and C's of,
of what these cattle were for. And that might happen in the
future. But, you know, as Tom's pointed
(15:30):
out, he the context for the katais arrived at through
understanding the function of the kata.
Yeah, it's noticeable that in the list of possible contexts
that Tom mentioned, he didn't mention any kind of military
use. You know, it it the clues to the
(15:56):
the actual use of these kata arein the kata themselves.
They are the textbook. I know that that's been
mentioned before, but I think it's it's worth repeating.
Military disciplines are also quite well documented.
So there's there's there's a fair bit of information that
survived through the Ming and Qing dynasty which points to
(16:19):
what was being practised by different military groups and
things like that. I don't think that.
And plus there's not really a lot of space for sigh use on the
battlefield and all that kind ofstuff.
So yeah, I think that's, you know, again with there isn't
evidence, but it's this, it's a different way of arriving and
(16:44):
understanding. We haven't got documents, but we
do have the forms. And it's really important that
Qatar are the primary sources. It's not the case of, well, you
can't show me in a book. Therefore it's, that's not, this
is a, this is a different way ofapproaching history.
We've got these manuals, these embodied manuals or whatever
(17:04):
maps, whatever you want to call them.
We've got these forms. These are the primary sources
and always the the starting point for researching this kind
of thing and the history and andwhat's available, what's been
translated and what, what we canaccess now is really secondary
to the kata and might and just may support speculation and
(17:25):
things like that. But the cat are arrived without
the functions and they haven't survived in China with the
functions either. So it's, there's a lot of work
in that. So it's, it's not simply that
we're just going well, it's probably that it's, it's of
careful examination of the content and the possibilities of
(17:45):
of these cat and then seeing where they might have been
applicable. As I said, policing might not be
the right term. That's a modern term that might
not reflect that type of work inMing Dynasty China.
And, and so, as I said at the beginning, keeping in mind,
we're talking about the period of history and a culture that's
(18:07):
just so far removed. From our own.
And, and to hold loosely that religious rituals and and
performative aspects were also probably part of almost all of
it. So, yeah, just listening to an
interview that Matt recommended to me, I was listening to
(18:28):
yesterday's interview of AndreasCrust and he's talking about his
most recent book on the Bow. And he's talking about all the
village festivals where they would put, they would perform
Bow Katter and Beau Cumatay. It's quite fascinating to hear
that those festivals took place and they were very common.
And there's lots of it going on.And there's so many different
(18:50):
recorded performative methods there for festivals and ritual
and things like that. And that parallels what was
going on in China. So already there's a big chunk
of bojutsu history there, which is, you know, well documented by
Saint Andreas Crass demonstrating the performative
aspects of by usage in Okinawa, which is something that I've not
(19:13):
really come into much contact with until recently reading his
book and and so on. So there's, there's lots there
to be explored, but go through the catter first.
Start with the catter and see where it takes you.
And that's what I would encourage someone to do.
I'm not encouraging anyone to believe anything that we're
saying or speculating on, but todo it for.
Yourself. Where does waitress Sanchin
(19:35):
take? You know, the Sanchin preserved
in that? Where do those forms take you?
What can you do with them and soon.
Yeah, I'll stop there. If I was.
Just thinking Matt's point aboutthe military size of it being
well documented. I don't, I don't know this
stuff, so I'll take your word for it.
But that's going to be quite important, isn't it?
(19:57):
Because why isn't the other stuff?
Why aren't the Carters documented?
If the military aspects are, yeah, I'll just find that quite
interesting that these forms areall out there and there's no
written documentation about them.
If that's if that's how I interpreted that, yeah.
(20:21):
I mean, thinking about there's the official records, there's
lots and lots of them, you know,tax records and civil records
and military and things like that.
There's lots of it in China, butthe, the pirates probably didn't
keep much in the way of records,you know, And, and the records
are the forms. That's not that there are.
(20:42):
Yeah. There's not that we need books
on on the Wing Channel or the. We've got the books that they
are the forms, but it's learningto read them.
That's, that's what they are. Yeah.
But it's vast. I mean, I'm just kind of making
sweeping generalisations there and probably some major errors,
(21:03):
but. As a?
As a. Leaping off point, it's OK I
think as a generalisation. Loads more to explore.
Yeah. OK, so next question.
Did historical figures like Camden Weichi, he got a camera
and showed to her, truly know Sanchez's purpose as a
(21:27):
psychotic? How far back do we have evidence
of its original function? That we we need to the farthest
back we can seem to go is to Tsar Tsar, teacher of so,
teacher of Camberwichi and possibly either him or an
associate teacher of the Higashion the Canyon.
(21:52):
So we're looking at very late development and the simple
answer to your question, if you is do we?
Did they know what my view is? But here this is brutally
simple, a bit over adjective heavy.
Let me state say that again, thesimple answer to the question is
(22:14):
no, they did not know, or if they did, they hid it very well.
I think if they had known, wouldwould 3 sidekatter be a good
foundation to create a karate styles from and then never
mentioned the PSI function ever again.
(22:36):
But I think it's also, you know that in asking how far was it?
How far back do you have evidence of the original
function? There isn't any evidence of the
original function. It was lost like a lost lounge.
But we've got the manuals which are the kata.
But in terms of speculating on the timeline, you've got to
think about the the skills themselves.
(23:00):
When the idea was suggested and the cat are created, when the
methods were practised and used,then they were lost, then they
became something else, and then they arrived in Okinawa and
become something else. So you you can kind of start to
speculate on the timeline a little bit with that.
(23:21):
How many generations does it take to create a Sanchin, lose
its function, it becomes Kung Fuor or whatever, and then makes
its way to Akinar and become karate?
But what we do have are the forms, and they're incredibly
well preserved. It's amazing, very lucky.
(23:45):
OK. So final question, is there
credible evidence supporting a Ming dynasty origin for Sanchin,
especially given the suggested later emergence of empty hand
Kung Fu styles? Yeah, I think, I think that that
the part of the question is partof the answer.
(24:07):
I think that the later emergenceof empty hand styles gives an
idea of that. It goes back to at least the
Ming Dynasty. We haven't, I, I, I think we can
speculate that the Ming dynasty is a possibility or earlier, but
these empty handed Kung Fu styles like the Fujianese boxing
systems seem to pop up quite prominently in the Qing dynasty.
(24:32):
And so I'll just kind of reiterate that point again.
We've gone through this idea of there being function based
forms. The functions are lost, they
become something else. So for example, the Wing Chan or
the forms preserved in Wei Chi were practised originally with
weapons. So we have the period of those
methods being used and trained somehow they get lost.
(24:54):
We can speculate on that as well, why that's the case.
Then they repurposed as unarmed Kung Fu or repurposed as rituals
or something else. And then they find their way to
Okinawa and later Hong Kong and and all the rest of it.
So, yeah, that emergency in the Qing Dynasty of the of unarmed
(25:16):
repurposing of weapons forms is a is a clue really.
And so you need to kind of account for all of those stages
of the development usage and loss of those functions, I
think. And but we do have the forms.
So again, it's to and it's also comparatively looking at what
(25:38):
kind of culture might have produced that.
And fortunately, there's quite alot of history of on the Ming
Dynasty and and so it's interesting to look at how
concise those forms are and whether that might fit with that
type of culture or something like that.
Again, it's only speculation. It's not hard evidence other
(25:59):
than the forms themselves. But yeah, so that's one way of
looking at that and approaching it, I suppose.
Before you, Juan, before you move on, may I just add to Tom's
comment, But it's you. You can see that the if you look
at the styles, ringtone and buck.
May. Chloe foot, they're all named at
(26:21):
the same time. They're all they all emerge at
the end of the Ming dynasty. So none of them, all of their
mythologies and stories, the stories about bakme, Chu Zhang
and Yin Rang Chun and and and and the story, the stories of
the of the white eyebrows, bakme, they all emerge at the
(26:41):
same time. They all emerge at the end of
the Ming Dynasty and at the Ching during the Ching they're
all very late and there don't seem to be any histories of
so-called gong crew styles before that.
So that's what kind of motivatedus to to to situate the
(27:03):
antecedents of gong crew styles in in, in in the Ming, because
this, this stuff, really this whole Kung Fu idea, this unarmed
combat idea seems to only emergein the in the Ching.
Now, I'm not going to say that historically there are no
records of, of unarmed because there are records of grappling
(27:28):
and there are records by a general who mentions the
uselessness of, of, of grapplingand unarmed combat.
And he goes on to say this is absolutely no use for military
purposes whatsoever. This, this was the idea of the
day for the military. You know, they discounted and
(27:49):
anything that was done without weapons, which is something
that's supported by Don Jaeger, who says the very same thing.
About the situation in. Japan, where unarmed combat
quotes unquote was considered tobe useless as a military to him,
which is consigned to a civiliansort of peasanty St boxing punch
(28:19):
up situation. Sorry about the poor choice of
words, but Dreger says the same thing and and John Dreger was a
was a master art giant historically in terms of his.
Grasp the the general that you're talking about is General
Chichi Guan, and he actually hadthe arm.
(28:40):
He had his army practise and unarmed Kung Fu form as to to
stop the troops getting bored. It was recreation and exercise.
It was never had to have any real combative value in terms of
military. And so he just said it was a way
of keeping the troops occupied, keeping them fit, keeping them
(29:01):
busy. And that's why he encouraged it.
But it was performative and recreational.
It wasn't functional practical. So it's, you know, and, and,
and, and that's something as well.
That is, I suppose it's easy to assume, isn't it, that
everything is pure function and all fighting and all combative
(29:22):
in someone sense or another. And actually some of these Qatar
may well just simply have been recreational forms from start to
finish, a way of keeping fit or emulating martial skills or
something like that as a as a form of exercise as opposed to
being any real combative value. And.
That's all the time we have for this month's Q&A.
(29:45):
Today we learnt that the path tounderstanding Qatar lies within
the forms themselves, making them our most valuable source of
information. We also saw how different
versions of Qatar, like those inShotakan and Madaru, can obscure
their original functions, while others like those in
Matsubayashi, Shorin Ru, and Weichi Ru have been carefully
(30:10):
preserved. Thank you for your incredible
questions. Don't forget to subscribe to our
podcast, follow us on social media, and share with those
interested. Until next time, thanks for
listening.
Hello, and thanks for joining uson Great Karate Myths Debunking
the Legends. This is our monthly Q&A episode,
and you've given us some fantastic questions.
Today, we're diving deep into the context and origins of
Qatar. We'll be answering your
questions about the historical context of these forms, their
original functions, and why someversions are more reliable for
(00:28):
research than others, and why they are the key to unlocking
their sequence. Get ready to have your
understanding of karate's past completely transformed.
So the first question is, can wetalk more about the context for
(00:48):
the kata and verify which context we are suggesting for
each kata? Well, that's a lot of Katha.
So if we looked at sort of can, it's as I said in the past, it's
27 and growing depending on the school or group.
If we looked at whatever you, I think it's probably, correct me
(01:10):
if I'm wrong, Tom or Matt, it's 15.
If you looked at Gojiru, it's 12.
And so basically a lot of the catter that are named in the
various styles that might appearto be different catter actually
are the same cater with a slightly different name.
(01:32):
So given that the the founder ofStoru Mabuni Kenwa Sensei tended
to be quite eclectic. No wrong word.
Yes, he collected. So he collected everybody's
cater and and that was some sortof 50.
So let's run with that figure unless anyone objects.
(01:53):
So we're looking at roughly 50 Karati Katta.
And when you look at the, if youlook at the say San, for example
in Goju, it's completely different from the Say San in
(02:17):
Waititi, although you. Can see your similarity.
You can, and anyone with a discerning eye can see the
likelihood of. 1. Having grown from the other, but
notwithstanding that they counted as they kind of they
have the same name. So they might be the same Qatar.
But when we look at Mad Buni Kenya's system, he did it, he
(02:41):
included sort of several versions of of say.
So all very confusing. So it's difficult to just say,
well, here are these 50 Qatar and of course the general
assumption is they're karate Qatar.
So they're they're all unarmed fatter.
They are all about unarmed self defence or unarmed fighting.
(03:05):
And as we've demonstrated, yeah,the original versions are not
but so classifying them all is atricky business really.
It's quite a big question, but II'll.
Start the ball rolling. By saying it's still judicious,
still useful and Germaine to classify the cater into we we
(03:31):
could be very picky and say intothree category categories, but
Naha surely until Marrate. But as as my, as my, as my dear
friend Simon said to me, you know, when he went on his
pilgrimage to Japan and Okinawa,in particularly in Okinawa, the
(03:52):
villages there's Thomas remindedme on a number of occasions,
they the villages of Naha Suri and Tumari are sort of two or
three miles apart. So there's no big deal there.
But if we looked at those classifications and those say
called 50 kata, it's easier to divide them into two broad
(04:15):
bases, the 2 broad groups, I begyour pardon?
And that would be Nahate and Shutrite.
So and for so in a casual way, that would be in a lazy way,
that would be Gujaru and Shottakan.
Or, if you like, Nahate and and Shurite would be primary
(04:37):
exemplars of those styles. Would be.
Matsu, Bayashi. Sharon Moo for the Theo,
Srebrenu and Gojuru, or even Wichuru for the Naha.
If we classify them into those two groups, we've got a good
starting point. Yeah.
So to get to the the contexts ofthe original functions you have
(05:00):
to you have to pass through the kata and the functions to get
there. So you know.
It's and it's holding in mind that we're talking about
something from in history, a completely different culture and
different perspectives on things.
So there's there's lots and lotsof possibilities there.
(05:21):
And it's better to start with the catter and and work back
from there. So rather than deciding, for
example, that it's unarmed self defence or, or whatever, it to
not have any assumption there. And what if you're seeking the
original function and you work backwards and you arrive at the
function, you can start to look at, well, what does the kata
(05:44):
contain? What's the content of it?
And we talked about the weight chiru, the forms preserved in
weight chiru. A lot that have that are for the
use of the site or some of the Shiri forms.
And from there you can kind of speculate on what the the
possible context for, for, for its usage was.
(06:07):
And so some of those contexts could include types of policing,
bodyguarding, palace security, guarding, militia, pirates,
theatre or performative martial arts, and also religious
rituals. So you'll find forms, go back
(06:28):
and you'll find, if you trace enough back, you'll find some
forms, not necessary just from karate, but from Kung Fu systems
that fit into those contexts. But the best route to it is to
go through the kata itself and, and, and seek those you know,
seek through the original functions.
(06:49):
And how do you know something might be policing, for example,
and policing might not be the completely correct term, but
something along those lines. Civil policing.
Well, we've talked about that already.
We've gone quite in depth on that in that it's not striking
areas which could potentially befatal and that the body of
techniques and skills are, you know, geared towards arresting
(07:13):
or disarming or you know, that kind of territory.
Then you can source it. Then you can speculate where
that that context may have been.Policing and militia.
You might be little private armies or something like that.
We done an episode on the Wing Chun and those butterfly
broadswords certainly don't seemto fit into the category of
(07:37):
policing, but certainly might align somewhere in militia,
private armies or piracy. But you don't start at the
context you you arrive at it once you've worked, you know,
working through through the Qatar.
So we've got those classifications in karate of
(07:57):
where though how that and why those forms have been collected
and arrived in Okinawa and then we go back further to China and
seek those original functions and then those original contexts
for use. Yeah.
So in essence and. Yeah, that's a.
(08:19):
A really nice summary. And what we're looking at as far
as I can understand is that we're looking at just we can say
they're either side Katter, they're grappling, they're bow
or tonfa, I think. Was that sufficient?
(08:43):
For now, because we can't, we can't speak for all of the all
of the Katter at all there. And there's so many forms.
So there might be more that we certainly haven't gone into in
any depth. So I think in terms of the forms
that we're talking about, which would be Sanchez, Saisan and
(09:08):
Sanseriu from the the naha to preserved in the Naha.
And then in the Shiri we have Nyanji, Prusanku, Gojushiho,
Pasai, Jinto and possibly 1 Shoeand Rohai.
That's that. Those are the films that we're
(09:29):
talking about at the moment. Oh, that's a, that's, that's a
nice summary, Tom. That's a perfect summary.
That would be enough. Just.
To to get a flavour of what these kata are about.
And yeah, I would. You know I would.
Say that we can't possibly know them all or know what they all
(09:50):
do because they're a rather large number of them and some
that are possibly yet to be discovered or revealed.
So yeah, that that's a good that's a good sample.
Look after you you've mentioned come principally from Matt who
by Ashley Shaw and Lew and wait to you.
(10:12):
Yeah. But those, those, the, the way
that they're performed in those styles and the way they've been
preserved seems to be the most accurate versions.
So in terms of unravelling the. So it's not that we just go to
Matsubashi roof, for example, for Kusenko, it's it's the
(10:35):
process involves looking at as many different versions as
possible, looking at the historyof those particular styles to
see what, you know, can we get adecent older version or what's
the best representation of Kusanku that we can find and see
what's possible with it in termsof exploring the original
(10:58):
functions. So there's, you know, there are,
there are certain, there's documented changes to Kusanku
that's taken place in from Shorinrou into Shojikan into
Wadaru and things like that. So it's by process, you
eliminate the ones that have gone through those changes
because the changes aren't really made based on function.
(11:20):
So, and it's the same with the Gojiru.
The Gojiru versions have changedsignificantly as well.
So again, not based on knowledgeof the original function.
So we'd eliminate the ones that we can certainly prove or
evidence have changed. And yeah, so it's quite
(11:43):
remarkable the the, the, the concise detail that's preserved.
They're really, really well, well preserved, particularly for
our purpose, which is to try to understand something of what was
intended for them in the beginning.
Yeah, excellent point. And it is the case that when
this research within our group was first conducted, Kinko
(12:10):
Berkey. So the actual start of the
research for the karate was, yeah, 35 years ago.
And the struggle was, I know, disrespect to Shottakan, as
everyone knows. I have considerable respect for
the Shottakan practitioners and their endeavours, their
capabilities and their Christmaslines and their dedication.
(12:35):
But it was very difficult to tryand unravel the the the the kata
functions based on the versions that we found so changed within
Shotokan and within the Wadaroo.As much as we wanted to be
inclusive. And in fact, we did have to turn
(12:57):
to the the very conservative with a small scene, nothing to
do with politics, but the well conserved cater of the Matsu by
Ashley Shore in Rue as as recorded by Nagamine Ocean
Sensei and of course, the Waititi RU recorded by Waititi
(13:19):
Camburn. Well, Hesley it was George
Matson, the very senior AmericanKarnataka.
But these, these versions, they had an accuracy that led to that
unlocked. It gave the capability for for
us to actually find out what this what they did.
(13:40):
The Schottokan were Schottokan, whatever you were problematic to
use in the sense that they had evolved and changed.
No criticism implied there, but they were.
We were no longer able to unlockthem because the codes had
changed and the forms had changed, not hugely but enough
(14:04):
to obscure the the origins and the intentions.
And whilst the performers perform them, you know the
karate can perform them, you know extremely well and
according to their traditions and the way they were taught.
But the the changes that have been made were made it
(14:27):
impossible to use those versions.
And in fact, one can understand what you know the the value 1
can appreciate the value of of of the Matt Tiberiashi and the
waiti forms because they have been preserved intact.
(14:49):
Matt, Kev, do you have anything to add if we move on?
Well, I think I, I was just going to mention it was just
coming into my mind that it's, it's a point that's been made
before, but it, it's worth repeating.
I think that the road to the contexts for the catter are the
(15:09):
catter themselves. We're we're not, I mean, at this
stage, we, we, we're unlikely, Ithink to on earth, you know,
historical documents that that lay out the A's, B's and C's of,
of what these cattle were for. And that might happen in the
future. But, you know, as Tom's pointed
(15:30):
out, he the context for the katais arrived at through
understanding the function of the kata.
Yeah, it's noticeable that in the list of possible contexts
that Tom mentioned, he didn't mention any kind of military
use. You know, it it the clues to the
(15:56):
the actual use of these kata arein the kata themselves.
They are the textbook. I know that that's been
mentioned before, but I think it's it's worth repeating.
Military disciplines are also quite well documented.
So there's there's there's a fair bit of information that
survived through the Ming and Qing dynasty which points to
(16:19):
what was being practised by different military groups and
things like that. I don't think that.
And plus there's not really a lot of space for sigh use on the
battlefield and all that kind ofstuff.
So yeah, I think that's, you know, again with there isn't
evidence, but it's this, it's a different way of arriving and
(16:44):
understanding. We haven't got documents, but we
do have the forms. And it's really important that
Qatar are the primary sources. It's not the case of, well, you
can't show me in a book. Therefore it's, that's not, this
is a, this is a different way ofapproaching history.
We've got these manuals, these embodied manuals or whatever
(17:04):
maps, whatever you want to call them.
We've got these forms. These are the primary sources
and always the the starting point for researching this kind
of thing and the history and andwhat's available, what's been
translated and what, what we canaccess now is really secondary
to the kata and might and just may support speculation and
(17:25):
things like that. But the cat are arrived without
the functions and they haven't survived in China with the
functions either. So it's, there's a lot of work
in that. So it's, it's not simply that
we're just going well, it's probably that it's, it's of
careful examination of the content and the possibilities of
(17:45):
of these cat and then seeing where they might have been
applicable. As I said, policing might not be
the right term. That's a modern term that might
not reflect that type of work inMing Dynasty China.
And, and so, as I said at the beginning, keeping in mind,
we're talking about the period of history and a culture that's
(18:07):
just so far removed. From our own.
And, and to hold loosely that religious rituals and and
performative aspects were also probably part of almost all of
it. So, yeah, just listening to an
interview that Matt recommended to me, I was listening to
(18:28):
yesterday's interview of AndreasCrust and he's talking about his
most recent book on the Bow. And he's talking about all the
village festivals where they would put, they would perform
Bow Katter and Beau Cumatay. It's quite fascinating to hear
that those festivals took place and they were very common.
And there's lots of it going on.And there's so many different
(18:50):
recorded performative methods there for festivals and ritual
and things like that. And that parallels what was
going on in China. So already there's a big chunk
of bojutsu history there, which is, you know, well documented by
Saint Andreas Crass demonstrating the performative
aspects of by usage in Okinawa, which is something that I've not
(19:13):
really come into much contact with until recently reading his
book and and so on. So there's, there's lots there
to be explored, but go through the catter first.
Start with the catter and see where it takes you.
And that's what I would encourage someone to do.
I'm not encouraging anyone to believe anything that we're
saying or speculating on, but todo it for.
Yourself. Where does waitress Sanchin
(19:35):
take? You know, the Sanchin preserved
in that? Where do those forms take you?
What can you do with them and soon.
Yeah, I'll stop there. If I was.
Just thinking Matt's point aboutthe military size of it being
well documented. I don't, I don't know this
stuff, so I'll take your word for it.
But that's going to be quite important, isn't it?
(19:57):
Because why isn't the other stuff?
Why aren't the Carters documented?
If the military aspects are, yeah, I'll just find that quite
interesting that these forms areall out there and there's no
written documentation about them.
If that's if that's how I interpreted that, yeah.
(20:21):
I mean, thinking about there's the official records, there's
lots and lots of them, you know,tax records and civil records
and military and things like that.
There's lots of it in China, butthe, the pirates probably didn't
keep much in the way of records,you know, And, and the records
are the forms. That's not that there are.
(20:42):
Yeah. There's not that we need books
on on the Wing Channel or the. We've got the books that they
are the forms, but it's learningto read them.
That's, that's what they are. Yeah.
But it's vast. I mean, I'm just kind of making
sweeping generalisations there and probably some major errors,
(21:03):
but. As a?
As a. Leaping off point, it's OK I
think as a generalisation. Loads more to explore.
Yeah. OK, so next question.
Did historical figures like Camden Weichi, he got a camera
and showed to her, truly know Sanchez's purpose as a
(21:27):
psychotic? How far back do we have evidence
of its original function? That we we need to the farthest
back we can seem to go is to Tsar Tsar, teacher of so,
teacher of Camberwichi and possibly either him or an
associate teacher of the Higashion the Canyon.
(21:52):
So we're looking at very late development and the simple
answer to your question, if you is do we?
Did they know what my view is? But here this is brutally
simple, a bit over adjective heavy.
Let me state say that again, thesimple answer to the question is
(22:14):
no, they did not know, or if they did, they hid it very well.
I think if they had known, wouldwould 3 sidekatter be a good
foundation to create a karate styles from and then never
mentioned the PSI function ever again.
(22:36):
But I think it's also, you know that in asking how far was it?
How far back do you have evidence of the original
function? There isn't any evidence of the
original function. It was lost like a lost lounge.
But we've got the manuals which are the kata.
But in terms of speculating on the timeline, you've got to
think about the the skills themselves.
(23:00):
When the idea was suggested and the cat are created, when the
methods were practised and used,then they were lost, then they
became something else, and then they arrived in Okinawa and
become something else. So you you can kind of start to
speculate on the timeline a little bit with that.
(23:21):
How many generations does it take to create a Sanchin, lose
its function, it becomes Kung Fuor or whatever, and then makes
its way to Akinar and become karate?
But what we do have are the forms, and they're incredibly
well preserved. It's amazing, very lucky.
(23:45):
OK. So final question, is there
credible evidence supporting a Ming dynasty origin for Sanchin,
especially given the suggested later emergence of empty hand
Kung Fu styles? Yeah, I think, I think that that
the part of the question is partof the answer.
(24:07):
I think that the later emergenceof empty hand styles gives an
idea of that. It goes back to at least the
Ming Dynasty. We haven't, I, I, I think we can
speculate that the Ming dynasty is a possibility or earlier, but
these empty handed Kung Fu styles like the Fujianese boxing
systems seem to pop up quite prominently in the Qing dynasty.
(24:32):
And so I'll just kind of reiterate that point again.
We've gone through this idea of there being function based
forms. The functions are lost, they
become something else. So for example, the Wing Chan or
the forms preserved in Wei Chi were practised originally with
weapons. So we have the period of those
methods being used and trained somehow they get lost.
(24:54):
We can speculate on that as well, why that's the case.
Then they repurposed as unarmed Kung Fu or repurposed as rituals
or something else. And then they find their way to
Okinawa and later Hong Kong and and all the rest of it.
So, yeah, that emergency in the Qing Dynasty of the of unarmed
(25:16):
repurposing of weapons forms is a is a clue really.
And so you need to kind of account for all of those stages
of the development usage and loss of those functions, I
think. And but we do have the forms.
So again, it's to and it's also comparatively looking at what
(25:38):
kind of culture might have produced that.
And fortunately, there's quite alot of history of on the Ming
Dynasty and and so it's interesting to look at how
concise those forms are and whether that might fit with that
type of culture or something like that.
Again, it's only speculation. It's not hard evidence other
(25:59):
than the forms themselves. But yeah, so that's one way of
looking at that and approaching it, I suppose.
Before you, Juan, before you move on, may I just add to Tom's
comment, But it's you. You can see that the if you look
at the styles, ringtone and buck.
May. Chloe foot, they're all named at
(26:21):
the same time. They're all they all emerge at
the end of the Ming dynasty. So none of them, all of their
mythologies and stories, the stories about bakme, Chu Zhang
and Yin Rang Chun and and and and the story, the stories of
the of the white eyebrows, bakme, they all emerge at the
(26:41):
same time. They all emerge at the end of
the Ming Dynasty and at the Ching during the Ching they're
all very late and there don't seem to be any histories of
so-called gong crew styles before that.
So that's what kind of motivatedus to to to situate the
(27:03):
antecedents of gong crew styles in in, in in the Ming, because
this, this stuff, really this whole Kung Fu idea, this unarmed
combat idea seems to only emergein the in the Ching.
Now, I'm not going to say that historically there are no
records of, of unarmed because there are records of grappling
(27:28):
and there are records by a general who mentions the
uselessness of, of, of grapplingand unarmed combat.
And he goes on to say this is absolutely no use for military
purposes whatsoever. This, this was the idea of the
day for the military. You know, they discounted and
(27:49):
anything that was done without weapons, which is something
that's supported by Don Jaeger, who says the very same thing.
About the situation in. Japan, where unarmed combat
quotes unquote was considered tobe useless as a military to him,
which is consigned to a civiliansort of peasanty St boxing punch
(28:19):
up situation. Sorry about the poor choice of
words, but Dreger says the same thing and and John Dreger was a
was a master art giant historically in terms of his.
Grasp the the general that you're talking about is General
Chichi Guan, and he actually hadthe arm.
(28:40):
He had his army practise and unarmed Kung Fu form as to to
stop the troops getting bored. It was recreation and exercise.
It was never had to have any real combative value in terms of
military. And so he just said it was a way
of keeping the troops occupied, keeping them fit, keeping them
(29:01):
busy. And that's why he encouraged it.
But it was performative and recreational.
It wasn't functional practical. So it's, you know, and, and,
and, and that's something as well.
That is, I suppose it's easy to assume, isn't it, that
everything is pure function and all fighting and all combative
(29:22):
in someone sense or another. And actually some of these Qatar
may well just simply have been recreational forms from start to
finish, a way of keeping fit or emulating martial skills or
something like that as a as a form of exercise as opposed to
being any real combative value. And.
That's all the time we have for this month's Q&A.
(29:45):
Today we learnt that the path tounderstanding Qatar lies within
the forms themselves, making them our most valuable source of
information. We also saw how different
versions of Qatar, like those inShotakan and Madaru, can obscure
their original functions, while others like those in
Matsubayashi, Shorin Ru, and Weichi Ru have been carefully
(30:10):
preserved. Thank you for your incredible
questions. Don't forget to subscribe to our
podcast, follow us on social media, and share with those
interested. Until next time, thanks for
listening.
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