June 30, 2025 • 61 mins
In this special "Question Time" episode of "Great Karate Myths: Debunking the Legends," we tackle listener questions about the true nature and purpose of karate kata. We explore the theory that kata are essentially manuals for specific weapon applications, challenging the notion that they are primary training methods. The discussion delves into historical parallels with Japanese swordsmanship and the significant impact of weapon bans in both China and Okinawa on the evolution of solo forms. We also discuss the accuracy of kata preservation and how the loss of original function led to alterations. A unique segment explores the Ko-do Ryu system's approach to holistic cultivation through physical meditation, differentiating it from other pushing hands practices. Finally, we address questions about specific kata like Passai and Kusanku and their links to weapons. Tune in for a deep dive into the fascinating history and technical understanding of karate!Relevant Links/Resources:
- Tales of Okinawan Masters by Shoshin Nagamine (Kodansha)
- Karatedo Nyumon by Gichin Funakoshi
- Karate-do Kyohan (1936 edition)
- Shotokan's Secret by Bruce Clayton
- The Great Karate Myth by Nathan J. Johnson
- The Ko-do Ryu YouTube Channel
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome back to Great Karate.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Myths Debunking the Legends, and it's question time the episode world.
We'll be discussing questions that have been sent in from
our listeners. So, first one, how do you reconcile your
theory that cata up for specific weapon applications with the
fact that other successful weapon based systems don't use solo
(00:29):
forms as their primary training method.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Okay, yeah, Dumpier, who's assuming We're not assuming that it's
a primary training method. We're not.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
We're still investigating. It's a chicken and egg situation. So
you know, is the kata first that No, the techniques
clearly must come first, and then they're formulated. I'd believe
there are plenty of kenjutsu or Japanese sword kata, particularly
as you noted in our discussion in the kat which
(01:07):
is probably allegedly that the most traditional of the Japanese
can judge to assword styles and they've got plenty of kata.
We picked up a comment that no successful weapons styles
have kato. Well, flies in the face of catoris into
that's Japanese swordsmanship. So I thought i'd start with that
(01:29):
as an opener.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yeah, well, we.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Haven't as Nathan's already pointed out, we haven't said at
any point that their primary training methods, but I say,
we've stated that their manuals, recording systems of martial skills
to be used in specific contexts. That's the that's the
sort of statement of what kata are. And we've also
said on a previous podcast that if you had someone
(01:58):
to work with that's going to give you real resistance,
you would work with them. You wouldn't say, well, let's
we're training together, let's spend all the time doing kata.
The cata are there as technical practices to do when
you haven't got someone.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
To work with.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And you know, and it's also relevant whether other weapons
weapons culture's weapons styles, weapons systems from around the world
developed kata or not. It's just happens to be the
case that martial arts forms were happened to be evolved
(02:36):
in China and also in Japan, so, you know, because
it didn't evolve in Europe, the kata, but there are
manuals in Europe. There's a rich tradition of manuals in Europe.
I don't think that can be argued, and I think
it's to be looked upon in that respect that we've
got a collection of manuals here.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
So are there are there historical parallels or specific reasons
why I can now and systems might have diverged. Yeah,
well they didn't get the original functions of the forms.
So the catter itself is useless unless you know what
it's for. And so you know you can you can
(03:18):
join in the creative interpretation and make up what you
like for it, but you can't. You can't deviate from
a system or a set of martial skills if you
know what they're for.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Why would you need to?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
They're there to serve a function and to do it,
perform a job or a role in society or whatever
they were for. You would why would you need to
divert You wouldn't. So it's that speaks to the fact
that the functions were lost, which is why you end
up with lots of changes and lots of new forms
being created, not just thinking. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty
(03:54):
sure fencing has drills that people practice on the solo,
and I think sortmanship does it. The swordsmanship does too.
I'm pretty sure it does. I've seen it, and I've
seen it. Yeah, definitely, and you should think of you
advanced drills that contain the essence of technical skills. When
(04:15):
you're talking about the SI or butterfly swords or tomfa,
you need to be skilled in gripping those tools when
you use them, you know, and you and they requires
practice and so you could you could do twenty different
single drills or repetition, or you could you know, the
(04:36):
kata encapsulate all of that and a lot more.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Okay, next question, Solo forms, whether for empty hand or
weapons training, are useless without live resistance. If your theory
is right and kata are just weapon drills in disguise,
isn't that even more of a reason to stop practicing them.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
We're not. I think that.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I think that's a good point, actually, and I think
it's worth clarifying something that you couldn't just practice the
kata and then suddenly be really effective in a fight.
We're not saying that at all. We're not saying if
you practice san chain with the pair of sigh that
you could go out and police with them. But with
the same we've got a manual here of how to
(05:22):
use the tool, how to use the weapon, and that's
what exists in these cata. These sets of skills. We're
not saying that if you'd practice the solo catter over
and over again that somehow you'll in any way. You know,
it'd be like saying if you just did shadow boxing
you could become a world champion in boxing is bullshit.
So we're not we're not saying that at all. We're
(05:45):
talking about what the kata are in terms of how
much practice would be beneficial. That's a good question. So
you know, how much solo practice with the weapons is
going to be a use useful developmentally, and then how
much life way of training with another person is going
to be beneficial, and then you need to go and
(06:05):
get that real experience. That's what it all points towards
is and that's going to really feed once you start
getting real experience, which we don't do now because we're
only practicing recreationally, but the real experience would feedback into
the practice massively as well. It's not a one way stream,
it's a it's a feedback loop of real experience and
(06:27):
cultivating those skills further.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Also, it's the case that modern post war, post World
War two karati practices as numbers grew, particularly in Japan,
where you'd be looking at typically a university club for instance,
Kire or we'll say that it doesn't matter. You'd find
(06:56):
large numbers of people, like a large group all practicing
hatter together for considerable period of time, which has created
a false situation. For instance, Tom, when you meet up
to train, I'm pretty sure that you don't spend the
allotted time you have with your training partners doing the solo.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Don't do any silo.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I've got so much to work, exactly, we don't. You
don't need to, that's exactly. But the everyday situation for me,
I practiced my sanshins. I really particularly enjoyed my handsun today.
I'm not sure why. It felt very good afterwards, but yeah, yeah,
I was completely alone, so I didn't have a partner
to train with, and so I think I've made the
(07:43):
point that the carriers, but.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
This idea of.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Masses of people all doing a cata together is is
quite synthetic. That's not the best word, but it's it's
very postmodern and very and not not not how what they.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Were designed to do. They weren't.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
You know, we're not looking at what are the mass gymnastics.
We're not looking at the news people's army that are
doing mass catisthenics. It's not the same thing at all,
not the same thing at all. I think that the
idea of practicing kata, certainly Innkinawa really took hold that
(08:31):
lots and lots of repetitions was required, and Kitchen Through
Nakoshi in his autobiography talks about practicing the techi forms
or the nihanchin forms in front of Itosu and he
would perform a repetition of the kata and sometimes he'd
get a nod or we'd be told to do it again,
(08:51):
and he would practice and practice and practice. They get
the solo. I mean what it leads to is you know,
that's for anyone to answer. But another character, Chokey motorbou
He in his own writings, talks about practicing night hansions
several hundred times a day. How beneficial that is is
(09:11):
really questionable, you know. The more just because you do
it more doesn't mean have any doesn't have any bearing
on whether you're improving as a fighter or not, or
whatever you think is for. And so yeah, it's about
asking the question what would be useful? How much practice
would be useful alone with a training partner and how
(09:34):
much real experiences needed to feedback in to keep that evolving.
It's interesting though that the okanaw And tradition was kata based,
and both nogam Sense the creator of Matsubayashi shorin lu
(09:56):
We recorded the fact that, well, that's a huge film saying,
you know, it's it's sad that people don't pay attention
to the cat of these days. And Maggie chojn Sense,
the founder of Gojulu, he he emphasized kata and kata
became almost a sacred practice. I think in a way
that it never was originally. I don't think it ever was.
(10:21):
It's an almost biblical that it's almost like a reading
of the Bible. So and I'm not criticizing any any religion,
but part of the as I understand it, of any
religion is actually living according to its values, but not
just reading its literature. So it's it's not the tightest
of an analogies, but I think I've made it that, yes,
(10:44):
it's good to read the scripture of if you're involved
in the religion or a part of it, or a
member of a religious group, read the scripture, but you
have to Actually, the point of the scripture is to
direct you to the values. So the actual living the religion,
whichever one is, is it living the values, not not
(11:09):
just reading or or or quoting the scripture. So it's
a careless analogy. But I think that the points made
that we can look at the kata somewhat along the
lines of a scripture.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So what's the point in practicing kata on their own
without the weapons? If if they're meant to be weapons drills,
what's the point in practicing without the weapons?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Hm?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Well, I quick think about we mentioned fencing earlier. So
when I when I was at college, I had a choice.
I could fence, pay foil or saber and I couldn't
tell you know when I began, and I didn't do
it for very long, maybe a year at the most,
(12:01):
but my parents decided that okay, that's my mum got
me a second hand. I thought it was a foil,
so I'm only my friends that I had a foil.
I didn't know the difference. It was an It was fine,
but you know, fencing is obsolete. You know, we don't
(12:23):
carry swords. Fencing is, but it's an international sport. It's
it's you know, should be should it be suggested that
fencing is redundant, or how about archery, that's that's pretty redundant,
as I mean, you know, I probably could go on,
but I think I've made the point. I think the
issue here is that this what we're discussing, is unique
(12:47):
because it has solo choreograph sequences are traditionally handed down forms.
And I think that what we touched on that was
really critical to this was one reason. And we're not
saying it's the own reason, because we we think there
are a number of reasons, and we're carefully piecing the
(13:08):
evidence together, which we've been doing this for years.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
But the.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
One of the difference is significant difference. In fact, the
significant difference between and I would be very careless here
between the East and the West, or perhaps the China
and Japan okanaa, and there are other places, and forgive
my emissions, but this is a phenomenon where you don't get,
(13:36):
for instance, in Europe, and we are still heavily involved
in the investigation of the weapons span or that's a
plural weapons bans, because they took place in China, as
you know, and on more than one occasion, but the
one for because our expertise is probably in the technical
(13:57):
material of the forms. The history is part of a
part of it, but that's not our that's not our speciality,
so to speak. So the history is supportive for us.
We're not primarily historians, that's almost incidental. We're much more
(14:17):
interested in the mechanics of the cata or I can
only speak for myself. Actually, Tom's Tom's developed a phenomenal
historical anyway, the idea that a weapons ban could encourage people,
or even force people to who wanted to retain their
(14:39):
their tradition, their marcial material, to conceal it by simply
doing them the practices with other weapons. And it's funny.
That not funny, it's we we see the same thing
happening in Okinawa when the Satsumas invaded and completely controlled Okinawa,
(15:00):
and you know, just reading any of the histories in
Nagamine says it beautifully in a in a number of
his publications, but primarily in his his Tales of Masters.
I think that's Kodancha, the publisher. He says that the
Satsuma occupation was brutal, and that the Okanoans were completely subjugated,
(15:28):
and none of them were allowed to own reupt weapons.
Only the most senior members of the royal court and
some of the nobility were actually allowed to retain some
retain their weapons. And bearing in mind that OCAW moved
as a one period in history, it presents as a
(15:51):
vassal state of China uh, and then it becomes it
presents as a vassal state of Japan, and it's it's
it's neither and both UH.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And out of that.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
It forges its own unique identity which leads it to rearrange.
Largely chiny preserve the catory call the antique kata, the
Ocanoans preserved them. But in the case for instance of
Ittosu Wanku, as we discussed previously, it led to the
(16:27):
creation of new kata, and it led to Maggie Chojan
completely changing the sanchin closing the fists and changing the
m booth, the floor plan, the movement, the foot diagram.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, and what what we.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Can say that is all I can say is within
that environment that miliare both in China and Okinawa, there
have been these persistent and reoccurring weapons bands, and you know,
we've been exploring the likelihood that's where I'm at, but
(17:05):
I could say possibility that these cata originate in that
environment that milliare and in circumstances that we didn't really
see in other parts of the world, and you know,
for instance, northern Europe where where we're set at the moment.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
And to further support that kitchen from the Koshi sense
in his Karate Do, Naimon stated, and this is a quote,
there were two occasions in Rayukuan history when weapons were
banned by governmental edict. The first was over five centuries
(17:46):
ago and the second about two hundred years later. These
bands cannot but have played an important role in the
development of karate. Yeah, the book could actually done nay fascinating.
The introduction is superb. It's very informal and friendly. He
starts by saying he visualizes sitting around sitting cross legged
(18:10):
on the floor, you know, with friends and students, drinking tea,
and he just makes that setting in the introduction of
the book and then just sort of expands his vision
of karate, which actually in that book is based on
the Tanno kata, which is the only kata demonstrated and
(18:31):
described in that book or fully described in that book.
And it's really his exposition of.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
His own creation. It's possibly he collaborated with his son
on which is the ten Okata. But yes, he's very
clear about the weapons ban in most of his publications.
And of course we've got the parallel situation, and the
strongest one, the most important one from my point of view,
is the Ming dynasty. The end of the Ming dynasty,
(19:01):
when the Ching came in, so sixteen forty four forty five,
when the Manchus the Qing dynasty imposed blanket weapons and
as we've discussed in the past, with really radical punishments
for any people who infringed that dictat or edicts, as
(19:22):
Guinier said earlier, and I think in our group we
currently think that that's the that's the impetus really for
the existence of weapons forms without the weapons. But we're say,
with the exception of Nihanjin, for all the reasons we've
(19:43):
you know, we will elaborate on later, not today, but.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, and he goes on to say, the edicts strictly
prohibiting the possessions of weapons extended even a sword gone
to rust. Yes, next question, given that the matter Matsubayashi
shorin Rue is the primary source of the Shuri te Kata.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
How confident can we be.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
That they were accurately and faithfully preserved?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
We can't. We can't.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
How can we be sure of anything? So this is
the question you get again in religion, whether you know
where theologians and argue right, the world at large will
argue over how can we be sure that, for instance, the.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Bible is true? Or how can we know?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
There are those that have faith and there are those
that do not have faith, And for us it's not
really a matter of faith, it's a matter of So
as I said earlier, we are much more. We embrace
the technical MATI that's what that's what we're really has
propelled how we think and operate. The rest of it
(21:10):
is historical and you know, philosophical and so on. So
if we look at Nagaminos teching not only so, it's
easy for me to sit here and say, well, they're
very accurate. Well when the question is how do you
know that? And my answer is by what it does,
(21:30):
and it's we managed to arrive at what it does
because this Matchi Bayashi shin version was so accurate, no
disrespect to shot Can and I mean that sincerely. I
had a lot of association with some superb shut can
practitioners and and looking at shutter can aesthetically gymnastically how
(21:57):
tidy and tight it is, but can't I won't to
say anything to detract from it, but if you can
trast them. The altered the Techi Techi series which followed
the same three series three kata series, so Techie Showdown
(22:18):
Nan and Sandan, which are commensurate with all parallel to
then by HANSI Showdwnn and Sandan.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
You can see that well our.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Evidence, it demonstrates that the loss of the function has
led to the alterations of the kata, and that began
actually before subject.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Came was created.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
That began when the three kata, which were originally one,
were broken into three parts for.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Reasons that we won't be able to cover in this
in this podcast.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
But you can see then that the for instance, the
crucial opening that is where the rolls back into the palm,
which you can see in multi chokies very clear photographs
of Night Hanchen in his particular publication which I'm not
(23:15):
going to get sidetracked on, but that's completely discarded in
the Shotakan Techie Showdown Cattle in a very similar way
that Mayagi Chojn Sense discarded the original opening of the
Sanjin and in fact, I would suggest borrowed the opening
(23:37):
from Night Hanchen, But that's another story. Maaggie Sense discarded
the opening of Sanchin in the same way that Ysotocan school.
I'm not going to pin this to any particular individual.
I'm not going to lay this one at the feet
of of Punicosiitchen sensey. But the cat were old and
(24:01):
one of the big the key thing is in the matsibiacity.
You've got a clearer when looking at the two fundamental
grips that are used, the sword and scabbard. They they
change and they change in a way that's not possible
physically with it when you're locking the human limbs. And
it's details like that that allowed us to see, ah,
(24:25):
this is where they've changed this, and this is where
they've changed that. Or you see where a movement that's
a small movement and doesn't seem to do.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Very much.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Has been exaggerated to become a big movement, a smashing movement.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
But where once you.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Get the function, you realize that that would not be correct.
So you can see it's the same culprit. It's the
loss of function that leads to the catter ultimately being changed.
So it's the function to answer the question. It's the
function that allows us to be clear on the format.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Of the kata.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
And in that regard, as we've constantly said, the Maxibashi
shin Roue are pretty accurate. There are still fundamental flaws,
as I repeat, they stem from the kata being broken
into three parts.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
But the.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Act, the length of the stance, the height of the arms,
the actual arrangement, the two lock up because it's all correct,
absolutely correct, and also very importantly, it's funny that different
groups retained different important parts, but the very famous night
Hanchen clenched fist, which we highlight in two or three publications,
(25:46):
still persisted, and strangely that one found its way into
Karati do Quhan in the nineteen thirty six editions and
in the I think It's Fulshome, I think it's a
seven edition, and it's it's translated and demonstrated by Euschemer Tsutoma,
(26:07):
who was a contemporary and former friend of Haarada Mitsuzuki sense.
He demonstrates in that book in the hand weapons section,
one of the fist clenches that's demonstrated. Is that very
strange some finger index finger tucked in nihanchin, which is,
(26:32):
you know, as we've written, you know, on a number
of occasions, is a ridiculous way to punch any anybody
or anything. I don't know of any cases where that
type of fist was used against the makua.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I could be wrong, I could be wrong.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
But the changing of the kata generally, whether it's karate
kata or gum fu forms, generally, the changes occur when
the function has been lost.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
So presumably the original functions of the antique forms were
once known in Okinawa. What might have caused these functions
to be lost? I don't think they were ever known
in Okinawa. I think they were lost in China. And
I think that the people that brought them to a
Canawa most likely didn't know the functions either. That's what
(27:27):
the evidence I think points to.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
At the moment. It's it's difficult because we've we've all
been sort of raised on this idea of the sort
of a mystical past where where one assumes that everyone
knew what they were doing, and the masters were the masters,
and and you know, certainly people that have been involved
(27:52):
in it a long time have brought up a certain
way to believe that the the catter were were the
essence of the art. And in fact, I can't remember
the original name of Nagamine Sense's book, but the translation
(28:12):
for the English edition it was his title was translated
as the Essence of Okin Now and Karate, and within
that book you find the representation I can't remember Tom's
at eighteen Matsubiasi lu Kata. When I first bought that book,
and I bought it on my birthday in nineteen seventy nine,
(28:35):
it was very expensive, beautifully presented book, wonderful.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
I couldn't believe that.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I never would have imagined that one day I would
have a book of mine published by the same publisher.
I have reason was an amazing I digress. The book itself,
called The Essence of Ocow and Karate, was really but
just lots of kata. There was a very very brief
(29:03):
section on pairs work on fixed community at the back
of the book, and but most of the book were
photographs of the kata, preserving the kata, and yes, the
Essence of Oka Now and Karate, but that you know,
we it gives an indication that of the thinking that
(29:28):
the kata were the karatic and that's how you know,
people in my generation and we were raised that. Younger
people now, people just starting out now are faced with
a very different martial art world. They're faced with the
world of mixed martial arts, and as the Kata have
gradually become less trusted, people are more experienced with the
(29:52):
whole idea of martial arts away from the sort of
stuff that there was available when I was at school.
There was sort of boxing and wrestling and judo, and
you know, most people at school with just about begun
to hear about karate. And you know, we've got a
(30:12):
sneak of sort of it appeared in sort of James
Bond films, sort of chops on the neck and strange,
inscrutable fighting that was so un European or so yeah,
so unlike anything that we've seen. The The landscape changed
completely now and we're seeing very effective combat systems that
(30:38):
don't don't have and why would they have kata because
they're not they're not they're not weapons. That's forms a
very strong part of our arguments. I was just thinking
about what what if some people had seen these weapons
drills being practiced without their weapons, had sort of over
time learned them without being taught probably, and then they've
(31:02):
got this and then they think, oh, you've got this
set of drills that you're practicing.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
You don't know what they do.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, And now that would be quite possible, wouldn't it,
because people would be practicing this stuff really older thoughts
in public, because it will in places where you'd see it,
or if someone's learned it and not knowing what drills
actually do, and then it gets sold onto other people.
(31:31):
You know, you see that sort of thing happening quite often.
People would do that sort of thing. They see something,
copy it and don't know what it really does. Let's
just me thinking about it off the top of my head.
Really well, there is a theme that reoccurs in marcial
(31:53):
arts films and in the myths, chapter books and legends
of people looking through the fence, a gap in the fence,
through a whole, you know, going back there after day
and watching people training and and and there might be
some tooth that you've raised a really interesting point there, keV.
That that that you know, that's been referred to on
(32:15):
a number of occasions in many publications for a number
of years, and I think that there might be some. Certainly,
what we've got here is material that's been copied and absorbed,
but without being fully understood. One thing I will say is, though,
that the transmission of some of the styles, so or
(32:37):
some of the forms, I'll use the generic term form
rather than Cata.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Or or Tolkien or or or any of that.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I'll just say form, pattern, sequence the.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Some of them.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Well, we'll go back to our old favorites. Deni hanchin
the Weichi series, and she say, San saill you some
You know, many of the Matsubayashi forms and the wing
chun forms are phenomenally technically accurate. And you know, any
a skeptical person might think, how do you know that?
(33:14):
How do you qualify yourself to make that claim?
Speaker 4 (33:20):
You know?
Speaker 1 (33:21):
And we'll get to that that that will all start
coming out as this whole thing unravels. The ring chun
forms are superb technically, they are supply superb. Now, these
are very accurate. Now it would be difficult to imagine
that these had been picked up by accident or randomly.
So these have been deliberately taught. What we're still unsure
(33:42):
of is the sequence of events. But I think any
sensible thinker would would think, well, there has to be
the technique first, there has to be the tool or
the weapon, you know, and as that weapon develops, then
the way of applying it evolves and refines. So I
think that's the case. But a healthy way to look
(34:04):
at this is that the kata and the weapon use
developing tandem, you know, and like a mother and a father,
they go together. But I still think at the end
of the day, the catch is a textbook, it's a record,
as we keep saying, and are incredibly the ones that
(34:24):
we've discussed, and there are quite a few more, are
technically superb. These are very very accurate. If they were literature,
they'd beat Shakespeare, and if they were philosophy, they'd be
loud to or These are just remarkable pieces of work.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Thanks. Moving on the next question. If nihanti as a
system of empty handed grappling techniques in the Shute tradition
is an exception to the weapon based rule, could it
be the case that something similar once existed for the
Nahat tradition.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
So probably probably not, because the idea of nahate and
shuri te came later. So there there's Okinawa.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
You know, the idea of Shuri te, the idea of
Nahte or Tamari te is an Okinawa idea. That old
classification or grouping or nickname, whatever you want to however
you want to describe it. That the antique kata arrived
without the forms and then were practiced amongst groups. And
(35:38):
you know where you practiced, that was the type of tay,
the type of hand or fist that you practiced. You know, Naha,
Tomari and Shuri I think for in about a two
mile radius of each other. You know there have been
it's just like village boxing. That idea of kung fu
might have come over and so they inherited that sort
(36:00):
of classification or something like that. Possibly, But a Naha
unarmed form wouldn't exist because the three forms preserved in
the weichi that may are the essence of what became nahaka.
The function was lost and no other forms arrived with it.
So Sanchin so San and San Serlio arrived and something
(36:23):
didn't come with it. Whether there were unarmed practices back
in China, that might be a different question. But who
knows on that one?
Speaker 3 (36:31):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
But what we have of those three forms.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Technically, as I said, they are, they are superb They
are accurate in terms of what they do. And I
think there's something that we and I'm not sure if
we were going to have the time to address it now,
so maybe we'll on another occasion. But the insistence that
there are myriad So if you start out with the
(37:01):
belief that there are hundreds and hundreds of innumerable forms,
there are numerable and numerable forms.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
We don't know how many.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
And so therefore this idea that there are weapons that
can't they can't all be weapons. Some of them must
be unarmed. And we'll get to that because we really
if we go back momentarily to the question we've asked
in previous podcasts, think about how you would go about
making a kata or a form creating one? And Tom
(37:36):
issued that not as an aggressive challenge, but as a challenge.
He asked that question, how would you where would you begin?
Speaker 4 (37:44):
You know?
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I think I echoed it in a subsequent podcast, where
would you begin?
Speaker 4 (37:50):
You know?
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And yet these forms do exist in their formulaic we
complete with an embo or four pattern direction of movement,
and we just take it for granted or the masters
knew what they were doing, they just did it.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
But how what was the basis?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Of course with a weapon, the amount of changes and
choices and techniques that you are going to deploy and
for someone that's going up against you, the defenses that
they are going to need will be controlled by that weapon,
and that is a beginning place for how you might
construct a kata or a form. So in that sense,
(38:30):
a just go to flick over to swordsmanship from Japanese
swordsmanship for a moment and look at the ku. Their
their sword kata are a very specific There's no way
that anyone practicing knows but would be trying, would try
to turn a cat into uh uh kata designed to
(38:53):
be used with a kakana, a two handed sword with
the No one would try and use those cat for
grappling or unarmed.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
You know, it's a different thing altogether.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yet that the use of a weapon does facilitate the
ability to produce patterns and directions, and they're going to
be determined by the limitation that clinging onto that weapon creates.
But limitation doesn't occur when a person has no weapons
(39:27):
is wild and free and unpredictable. Could do anything, and
how do you contain that anything possibility in a form?
The answer is you can't.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
It was a rhetorical question, what about so this might
come up? What about as a starting position? As a
starting point? At the starting point was a clinch. You
could say that about anything, couldn't you well? But if
(40:00):
you both slipped over and you started lying down on
the ground, or what if you started back to you'd
end up going on forever and ever and ever and ever.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
And that's what that's the problem. There's too many possibilities,
too many variations. When it's unarmed or it's a fistfight
and it's unnecessary, And it comes back to that point
at the beginning, what what what would be the use
of practicing a cattera for an armed fight? What would
(40:32):
what would be the benefit? How would it improve your
ability within the fight? Pacticeing weapons? You know, there are
skills that are you can derive benefit from doing solo
practice when you haven't got someone to work with, but
that's very limited. Unarmed, you'd be better off shadow boxing
(40:52):
or working on a bag or you know, all that
kind of type of idea might be far more beneficial
if you haven't got people to work with then developing
a cata and and there's just bringing it back around.
There's just too many possibilities. You could, you know, we
could list of one hundred different ways to start, couldn't we,
(41:14):
you know? And which one would be best? Is it?
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Because its futile, I think?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
And just to add to that, let's take the sigh
our old favorite and the ring Chun broadsword, and we
look at the size and they are both pretty much
the length of the forearm, and they both of them
were The sie have two hooks and symmetrical hooks, and
(41:44):
the ring Chun, the bartchum the broad sword just has
one hook. But it's quite interesting that both of these
tools or weapons are deployed in two and only two
ways in terms of their orientation. So the blade is
either open or it's closed, where the blade is flipped
over held against the forearm, and that the point where
(42:12):
you could start to catalog. And a beginning point that
we've suggested in both the Weichi sanchin and the wingtoon
is that ability to flip flip the side or the
blade to have to deploy to be able to move
from one orientation to the other and keep up next
(42:36):
societal context and purpose. So although the techniques and functions
of the antique forms can now be practiced and enjoyed
by all, would their original intention have been from more
select or even elite elements of Okino and society. Yes,
(42:57):
but replace okin album with Chinese, so they would have
been professionals. They would have been selected on that basis
in the same way that you know, you get elite athletes.
Now not everyone can be, you know, an elite athlete,
and you know, in the same bodyguards or military or
(43:17):
police have their selection criteria. Of course, you would have
had had people that were exceptionally skilled natural born fighters.
You know, you're you're you're not training people to fight.
They I imagine they're already very competent fighters or natural
born fighters, and then you're giving them skills, you're adding
(43:40):
to that, inn apes, adding to that. And they would
have been elite athletes as well. I mean in terms
of fitness and strength. When I joined the police force,
I'm not this is not a boast. I had no
idea at the time of how trust that the training
laws because the cadet force I belonged to had carbon
(44:03):
copied the training program from Sandhurst military academy. So we
did so many of the things that they did in
the same way. We got up at the same time,
we did the same distance runs, we made the same bedpack.
Everything was I didn't know it's at the time. It
wasn't until later. In anyway, the interesting thing is at
(44:28):
that stage in the British Police Force you had to
be a five foot eleven to be so in that sense,
I agree with Tom that it would be you if
being five foot eleven makes you elite. Yes, it's an
elite thing, but it is because not everyone's five foot eleven.
So yes, you have to be the right person for
(44:54):
the job. But I think that's true for any job,
isn't it. So I don't want to stretch a point
spoiler point, Tom, But you know, could we say we
could say doctors are elite, We could say accountants are elite,
elite dentist we could say Brickley is layers, you know,
or carpenters are elite because they've got the capability to
(45:17):
do the job, or they get they don't keep the job.
But I think it's horses for courses. So Tom's right
that the operative would have to be strong and fit
and you know, it would be between certain ages if
you turned up for and applied for as a civil
arrest officer, bearing in mind there is no standard police
(45:40):
force in Ming dynasty, China. But if you were sort
of in your eighties and he turned up on the
lookout for a job, I'm not sure if you get one.
So in that sense, yeah, you it's it's a certain
type of job that requires a certain type of person,
and I think that's the same for any kind of employment.
(46:00):
One more thing to say, some of this material that
we're discussing has definite connections with militia, which is another
level up or down, whichever way you want to put it.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
There's a different position.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
From several policing because militia moves not quite military, it's
not battlefield. Those are the distinctions that we've been busy
setting and working out corrector if I get this, if
I go too far, tom keV. But we're not looking
at out and out warfare. So the idea, for instance,
(46:40):
of using sy on a battlefield is a no is
a no and.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Pretty much similar.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Though in the early days I really did think that
the broadswords might be battlefield. I think in discussion and
work done with Tom on that. No, neither of us
believe that. But to get the job, you'd have to
be fit for the job. And so yeah, comes quite right.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Next question, This one's about codoru and holistic cultivation. So
in a previous podcast it was mentioned that the corda
U system is in part a vehicle for holistic, physical
and spiritual cultivation. Could you speak more on how this
is the case.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, Tom, do you want to do that, because you've
got quite a good component in your personal No, no.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
You go nation.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
You created it, You're the creator. I'm picking up the Okay,
thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
Look, I think that.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Our approach and it came out of a stage of development.
So the first book from Tuttle was the first stage
of the second stage was The Barefoot Zen published by Reiser.
So the first book published in Japan's second book published
in the USA.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
And by two thousand we were.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Certainly what we'd set is the idea that because so
many senior masters had said that karate was zen and
Zen was karate. In fact, Nagaminostion said precisely that Maggie
Chojan Sense alluded to it, we accepted that there was
(48:32):
a spiritual component. Not this is careless what I'm about
to say. So, yes, the knights were perhaps they were Christians,
but you know, we can't really say it was Christian warfare.
But that was there the spiritual tradition from which they came,
so it wouldn't be wrong. In fact, we know it's
correct to say that people who practiced in karate came from,
(48:56):
you know, the cultures which practiced the Buddhism and Taoism
and Shinto and Animism.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
But what we recognized was there was a way.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
We originally thought it was how they did it, but
we don't know that you could objectify meditation between pairs.
And the idea was meditation is where you know, the
person sits as serenely as they can in a in
a tranquil way, and and sit still and concentrates, for instance,
(49:36):
on the breath coming in and going out, and the
mind being ever busy, and thought comes in and we
habitually get entangled with our thoughts and off we go,
following them to wherever they take us.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
But the Buddhist thinking was thoughts are a.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Products of the mind, but not the mind itself.
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Ergo.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Therefore, you know there is a way to let go
of those thoughts and not be consumed by them fear, greed, anger, envy,
you know, constant pursuit of benefit and money and advantage.
And the whole idea of or one idea aspect of meditation,
(50:25):
was to spend periods of time transcending that. So that's
a very primitive basis. What we then determine was that,
how about if, in the Shaolin tradition, the thought that
comes and intrudes the mind that the meditator let go
(50:47):
of was to be replaced with a physical force, not
something outrageously violent, but something substantial enough, a push or
pull or a grip in contact where this a force
could be given and the person that's receiving it wouldn't
(51:10):
resist it, because that would be very unzen, very un Buddhist.
They wouldn't resist it, but they wouldn't be overwhelmed by it.
They wouldn't just give in to it. So they would
neither give in nor would they fight. What that left
or leaves is the force would be accepted, not be rejected,
(51:30):
but it wouldn't be agreed with. It would be absorbed
and returned. So it's well, I've got this push, thank you,
but no thank you. So it comes in and it
goes out, you're going to have that back. And this
could then be in the same way that the mind.
We're not only going to train ourselves to let go
(51:51):
of one thought, no anger or greed or envy. We're
going to let go of any thought that comes in
while we're meditated, in the same way while we're for instance,
pushing hands, which would be a medium to express this,
when the arms are in contact and a force is
provided as a sticky force between us, not sticky as
(52:15):
in glue, but it's it's not there's a clinging, loaded,
heavy force much in me I think they call it.
In the Goju mister Maggie used it. Magi Sensei used
that there's a heavy, sticky feeling of absorbing the push
and pull. So there's substantial force being employed, but that
(52:40):
force is taken in, absorbed, circled, and returned and in
the same way that the seated meditator would have to
let go and not be caught and distracted by any
number of thoughts. The practice, the pushing hands practice would
set out to develop as many of those within reason,
(53:04):
using a gate system and angles and heights as to how.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
We might.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Deal with an optimal number of forces that are physical
substitutes for the thoughts entering the mind of a seated meditator.
So this this is the potential for an objectification of
physical physical meditation, which has lots of possibilities, a significant
(53:35):
one as it can be observed, so a teacher can
see can gauge the student's ability to let go of
a force without struggling with it and being overwhelmed, without
becoming aggressive or without being passive, which is considered to
be the middle way, which is one of the ideals
of Zen Buddhism. Just about now, was it done?
Speaker 3 (53:59):
The lovely really nice? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (54:04):
And I think that's quite unique to the Kudu system.
That's not we haven't seen that in any other system.
Tai Chi has pushing hands, go do as kakia.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Both of them tend to lack spontaneity though, and I
think that that's the that what sets the code pushing
hands apart from the other schools of sticky hands or
pushing hands is is the ability to be spontaneous. And
that's that that changes that you're internal That spontaneity allows
(54:43):
something different to happen internally as well. And we in
fixed pushing hands in tai chi, and it doesn't really
someone does something to someone, it's kind of fixed. It's
not and it lacks that spontaneous, spontaneous moment where you
can get caught off balance or you know, and it
(55:05):
wakes you up and brings you back and then you
carry on. And I think it's one of the most
important element of Coderer practices, the pushing hands, and it's
people members past and present when whenever you kind of
come across someone, Oh I did coder Resentureindo years ago,
(55:29):
I really missed.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
The pushing hands.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
It's always it's always the pushing hands that they love.
And it's because that spontaneous element and quality of it,
and the thing that because we don't practice fighting or
self defense, it's it leads somewhere different. It has the
potential to be something completely different without without that kind
(55:57):
of on your you know, that that potential violence or
the fight on your back all the time. Yeah, I
don't think you could have zen and karate together if
if fighting was involved.
Speaker 3 (56:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Yeah, getting one over one for another day.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Well, we'll explore more on this on pushing hands in
another episode this. Yeah, we've got plenty of videos on
the YouTube channel as well. I'm going to move on
to our final question specific kata resources. So a commentator asked, said,
you have mentioned passi kata and staff retention seems to
(56:40):
make its based on the movements. They agree, Where do
I find more on this topic? I trained with Fumio
de Mura since in the seventies and eighties in Santa Ana, California,
and learned multiple kata then with very little bonki explanations.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Yeah, there's a short answer is that we haven't got
any video footage of it yet because I haven't filmed it,
but we will do.
Speaker 3 (57:10):
We will do soon.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
It's I think it's just worth quickly mentioning as well
in a couple of books. One of them is by
a guy called Bruce Clayton, and he wrote, I think
it's I've got it on my shelf, show to Can's Secret.
It's absolutely fantastic book. He references a couple of and
I think Andreas Quast has written about this as well.
(57:34):
There's a couple of references where Okinawan teachers have alluded
to pasai and kushan ku both being something to do
with the bow and they both are that was the
original function. So I suppose it raises the questions if
(57:55):
the idea of what they were might have come along
but the actual technical function didn't. So there's a little
bit of all history there, which is is really quite interesting.
So I wouldn't say yeah, and it was reading that
that helped to kind of dive in to those catad
from that perspective. But there'll be a lot more to
(58:15):
say on Passai and Pusenkhu and the other the Shui
te the palace hand. There'll be a lot more to
say on that. Yeah, yeah, and see yeah, yeah, we
will be making it available. And this is really very
much Tom's field expertise. But interesting that that should be
(58:39):
a question because just yesterday I was revisiting there's some
footage of phoenicochi sense.
Speaker 3 (58:48):
Going again.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
I can't identify the who he's facing, but he's facing
a bow staff and he's using a pair of sigh
He's not using him them in the way that the
way you would use them, and it has an improvised
look about it. But one has to wonder where does
that come from? Where where does that actually come from?
(59:14):
So I think you're r liked on that the that
has sort of inadvertently come over but disconnected from the
very cata that it should be associated with. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
if they if they were, if the kata were taught
by people that did know the function, you know, it
(59:36):
would be interesting to we could speculate on why the
functions were passed on. It might be there wasn't simply time.
It might have been if someone was part of an
envoy or trade well, you know, stopping in Okinaw. There
might have only been time to learn the kta, you know,
and not necessarily the function. That might have been the
(59:57):
point that it got lost, or it might have been before,
way before then. Who knows. You know, there's lots of
different cata, so there are lots of different stories there,
and on one size isn't going to fit all in
that respect, so there's plenty to explore from lots of
different perspectives. Girl, was I thinking about some of the
(01:00:19):
cars I used to watch and do, and I've ever
been given many, very very few explanations to what they have.
No one ever did. It's very very rare, very rare.
So it's just an ongoing thing, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
And that wraps up another illuminating question. Time or great
karate myth debunking legends. Today, we challenge the idea of
kata as primary training methods and explored how weapons bands
likely influenced their solo practice. We also touched upon the
fascinating concept of physical meditation in the Cardo root system.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Thank you for your incredible questions.
Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
If you enjoyed this deep dive, please subscribe to our podcast,
leave us a review, and visit.
Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Our website for more resources.
Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
You can also follow us on social media for updates.
See you next time.
Welcome back to Great Karate.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Myths Debunking the Legends, and it's question time the episode world.
We'll be discussing questions that have been sent in from
our listeners. So, first one, how do you reconcile your
theory that cata up for specific weapon applications with the
fact that other successful weapon based systems don't use solo
(00:29):
forms as their primary training method.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Okay, yeah, Dumpier, who's assuming We're not assuming that it's
a primary training method. We're not.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
We're still investigating. It's a chicken and egg situation. So
you know, is the kata first that No, the techniques
clearly must come first, and then they're formulated. I'd believe
there are plenty of kenjutsu or Japanese sword kata, particularly
as you noted in our discussion in the kat which
(01:07):
is probably allegedly that the most traditional of the Japanese
can judge to assword styles and they've got plenty of kata.
We picked up a comment that no successful weapons styles
have kato. Well, flies in the face of catoris into
that's Japanese swordsmanship. So I thought i'd start with that
(01:29):
as an opener.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yeah, well, we.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Haven't as Nathan's already pointed out, we haven't said at
any point that their primary training methods, but I say,
we've stated that their manuals, recording systems of martial skills
to be used in specific contexts. That's the that's the
sort of statement of what kata are. And we've also
said on a previous podcast that if you had someone
(01:58):
to work with that's going to give you real resistance,
you would work with them. You wouldn't say, well, let's
we're training together, let's spend all the time doing kata.
The cata are there as technical practices to do when
you haven't got someone.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
To work with.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And you know, and it's also relevant whether other weapons
weapons culture's weapons styles, weapons systems from around the world
developed kata or not. It's just happens to be the
case that martial arts forms were happened to be evolved
(02:36):
in China and also in Japan, so, you know, because
it didn't evolve in Europe, the kata, but there are
manuals in Europe. There's a rich tradition of manuals in Europe.
I don't think that can be argued, and I think
it's to be looked upon in that respect that we've
got a collection of manuals here.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
So are there are there historical parallels or specific reasons
why I can now and systems might have diverged. Yeah,
well they didn't get the original functions of the forms.
So the catter itself is useless unless you know what
it's for. And so you know you can you can
(03:18):
join in the creative interpretation and make up what you
like for it, but you can't. You can't deviate from
a system or a set of martial skills if you
know what they're for.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Why would you need to?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
They're there to serve a function and to do it,
perform a job or a role in society or whatever
they were for. You would why would you need to
divert You wouldn't. So it's that speaks to the fact
that the functions were lost, which is why you end
up with lots of changes and lots of new forms
being created, not just thinking. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty
(03:54):
sure fencing has drills that people practice on the solo,
and I think sortmanship does it. The swordsmanship does too.
I'm pretty sure it does. I've seen it, and I've
seen it. Yeah, definitely, and you should think of you
advanced drills that contain the essence of technical skills. When
(04:15):
you're talking about the SI or butterfly swords or tomfa,
you need to be skilled in gripping those tools when
you use them, you know, and you and they requires
practice and so you could you could do twenty different
single drills or repetition, or you could you know, the
(04:36):
kata encapsulate all of that and a lot more.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Okay, next question, Solo forms, whether for empty hand or
weapons training, are useless without live resistance. If your theory
is right and kata are just weapon drills in disguise,
isn't that even more of a reason to stop practicing them.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
We're not. I think that.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I think that's a good point, actually, and I think
it's worth clarifying something that you couldn't just practice the
kata and then suddenly be really effective in a fight.
We're not saying that at all. We're not saying if
you practice san chain with the pair of sigh that
you could go out and police with them. But with
the same we've got a manual here of how to
(05:22):
use the tool, how to use the weapon, and that's
what exists in these cata. These sets of skills. We're
not saying that if you'd practice the solo catter over
and over again that somehow you'll in any way. You know,
it'd be like saying if you just did shadow boxing
you could become a world champion in boxing is bullshit.
So we're not we're not saying that at all. We're
(05:45):
talking about what the kata are in terms of how
much practice would be beneficial. That's a good question. So
you know, how much solo practice with the weapons is
going to be a use useful developmentally, and then how
much life way of training with another person is going
to be beneficial, and then you need to go and
(06:05):
get that real experience. That's what it all points towards
is and that's going to really feed once you start
getting real experience, which we don't do now because we're
only practicing recreationally, but the real experience would feedback into
the practice massively as well. It's not a one way stream,
it's a it's a feedback loop of real experience and
(06:27):
cultivating those skills further.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Also, it's the case that modern post war, post World
War two karati practices as numbers grew, particularly in Japan,
where you'd be looking at typically a university club for instance,
Kire or we'll say that it doesn't matter. You'd find
(06:56):
large numbers of people, like a large group all practicing
hatter together for considerable period of time, which has created
a false situation. For instance, Tom, when you meet up
to train, I'm pretty sure that you don't spend the
allotted time you have with your training partners doing the solo.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Don't do any silo.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I've got so much to work, exactly, we don't. You
don't need to, that's exactly. But the everyday situation for me,
I practiced my sanshins. I really particularly enjoyed my handsun today.
I'm not sure why. It felt very good afterwards, but yeah, yeah,
I was completely alone, so I didn't have a partner
to train with, and so I think I've made the
(07:43):
point that the carriers, but.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
This idea of.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Masses of people all doing a cata together is is
quite synthetic. That's not the best word, but it's it's
very postmodern and very and not not not how what they.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Were designed to do. They weren't.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
You know, we're not looking at what are the mass gymnastics.
We're not looking at the news people's army that are
doing mass catisthenics. It's not the same thing at all,
not the same thing at all. I think that the
idea of practicing kata, certainly Innkinawa really took hold that
(08:31):
lots and lots of repetitions was required, and Kitchen Through
Nakoshi in his autobiography talks about practicing the techi forms
or the nihanchin forms in front of Itosu and he
would perform a repetition of the kata and sometimes he'd
get a nod or we'd be told to do it again,
(08:51):
and he would practice and practice and practice. They get
the solo. I mean what it leads to is you know,
that's for anyone to answer. But another character, Chokey motorbou
He in his own writings, talks about practicing night hansions
several hundred times a day. How beneficial that is is
(09:11):
really questionable, you know. The more just because you do
it more doesn't mean have any doesn't have any bearing
on whether you're improving as a fighter or not, or
whatever you think is for. And so yeah, it's about
asking the question what would be useful? How much practice
would be useful alone with a training partner and how
(09:34):
much real experiences needed to feedback in to keep that evolving.
It's interesting though that the okanaw And tradition was kata based,
and both nogam Sense the creator of Matsubayashi shorin lu
(09:56):
We recorded the fact that, well, that's a huge film saying,
you know, it's it's sad that people don't pay attention
to the cat of these days. And Maggie chojn Sense,
the founder of Gojulu, he he emphasized kata and kata
became almost a sacred practice. I think in a way
that it never was originally. I don't think it ever was.
(10:21):
It's an almost biblical that it's almost like a reading
of the Bible. So and I'm not criticizing any any religion,
but part of the as I understand it, of any
religion is actually living according to its values, but not
just reading its literature. So it's it's not the tightest
of an analogies, but I think I've made it that, yes,
(10:44):
it's good to read the scripture of if you're involved
in the religion or a part of it, or a
member of a religious group, read the scripture, but you
have to Actually, the point of the scripture is to
direct you to the values. So the actual living the religion,
whichever one is, is it living the values, not not
(11:09):
just reading or or or quoting the scripture. So it's
a careless analogy. But I think that the points made
that we can look at the kata somewhat along the
lines of a scripture.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So what's the point in practicing kata on their own
without the weapons? If if they're meant to be weapons drills,
what's the point in practicing without the weapons?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Hm?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Well, I quick think about we mentioned fencing earlier. So
when I when I was at college, I had a choice.
I could fence, pay foil or saber and I couldn't
tell you know when I began, and I didn't do
it for very long, maybe a year at the most,
(12:01):
but my parents decided that okay, that's my mum got
me a second hand. I thought it was a foil,
so I'm only my friends that I had a foil.
I didn't know the difference. It was an It was fine,
but you know, fencing is obsolete. You know, we don't
(12:23):
carry swords. Fencing is, but it's an international sport. It's
it's you know, should be should it be suggested that
fencing is redundant, or how about archery, that's that's pretty redundant,
as I mean, you know, I probably could go on,
but I think I've made the point. I think the
issue here is that this what we're discussing, is unique
(12:47):
because it has solo choreograph sequences are traditionally handed down forms.
And I think that what we touched on that was
really critical to this was one reason. And we're not
saying it's the own reason, because we we think there
are a number of reasons, and we're carefully piecing the
(13:08):
evidence together, which we've been doing this for years.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
But the.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
One of the difference is significant difference. In fact, the
significant difference between and I would be very careless here
between the East and the West, or perhaps the China
and Japan okanaa, and there are other places, and forgive
my emissions, but this is a phenomenon where you don't get,
(13:36):
for instance, in Europe, and we are still heavily involved
in the investigation of the weapons span or that's a
plural weapons bans, because they took place in China, as
you know, and on more than one occasion, but the
one for because our expertise is probably in the technical
(13:57):
material of the forms. The history is part of a
part of it, but that's not our that's not our speciality,
so to speak. So the history is supportive for us.
We're not primarily historians, that's almost incidental. We're much more
(14:17):
interested in the mechanics of the cata or I can
only speak for myself. Actually, Tom's Tom's developed a phenomenal
historical anyway, the idea that a weapons ban could encourage people,
or even force people to who wanted to retain their
(14:39):
their tradition, their marcial material, to conceal it by simply
doing them the practices with other weapons. And it's funny.
That not funny, it's we we see the same thing
happening in Okinawa when the Satsumas invaded and completely controlled Okinawa,
(15:00):
and you know, just reading any of the histories in
Nagamine says it beautifully in a in a number of
his publications, but primarily in his his Tales of Masters.
I think that's Kodancha, the publisher. He says that the
Satsuma occupation was brutal, and that the Okanoans were completely subjugated,
(15:28):
and none of them were allowed to own reupt weapons.
Only the most senior members of the royal court and
some of the nobility were actually allowed to retain some
retain their weapons. And bearing in mind that OCAW moved
as a one period in history, it presents as a
(15:51):
vassal state of China uh, and then it becomes it
presents as a vassal state of Japan, and it's it's
it's neither and both UH.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And out of that.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
It forges its own unique identity which leads it to rearrange.
Largely chiny preserve the catory call the antique kata, the
Ocanoans preserved them. But in the case for instance of
Ittosu Wanku, as we discussed previously, it led to the
(16:27):
creation of new kata, and it led to Maggie Chojan
completely changing the sanchin closing the fists and changing the
m booth, the floor plan, the movement, the foot diagram.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, and what what we.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Can say that is all I can say is within
that environment that miliare both in China and Okinawa, there
have been these persistent and reoccurring weapons bands, and you know,
we've been exploring the likelihood that's where I'm at, but
(17:05):
I could say possibility that these cata originate in that
environment that milliare and in circumstances that we didn't really
see in other parts of the world, and you know,
for instance, northern Europe where where we're set at the moment.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
And to further support that kitchen from the Koshi sense
in his Karate Do, Naimon stated, and this is a quote,
there were two occasions in Rayukuan history when weapons were
banned by governmental edict. The first was over five centuries
(17:46):
ago and the second about two hundred years later. These
bands cannot but have played an important role in the
development of karate. Yeah, the book could actually done nay fascinating.
The introduction is superb. It's very informal and friendly. He
starts by saying he visualizes sitting around sitting cross legged
(18:10):
on the floor, you know, with friends and students, drinking tea,
and he just makes that setting in the introduction of
the book and then just sort of expands his vision
of karate, which actually in that book is based on
the Tanno kata, which is the only kata demonstrated and
(18:31):
described in that book or fully described in that book.
And it's really his exposition of.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
His own creation. It's possibly he collaborated with his son
on which is the ten Okata. But yes, he's very
clear about the weapons ban in most of his publications.
And of course we've got the parallel situation, and the
strongest one, the most important one from my point of view,
is the Ming dynasty. The end of the Ming dynasty,
(19:01):
when the Ching came in, so sixteen forty four forty five,
when the Manchus the Qing dynasty imposed blanket weapons and
as we've discussed in the past, with really radical punishments
for any people who infringed that dictat or edicts, as
(19:22):
Guinier said earlier, and I think in our group we
currently think that that's the that's the impetus really for
the existence of weapons forms without the weapons. But we're say,
with the exception of Nihanjin, for all the reasons we've
(19:43):
you know, we will elaborate on later, not today, but.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, and he goes on to say, the edicts strictly
prohibiting the possessions of weapons extended even a sword gone
to rust. Yes, next question, given that the matter Matsubayashi
shorin Rue is the primary source of the Shuri te Kata.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
How confident can we be.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
That they were accurately and faithfully preserved?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
We can't. We can't.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
How can we be sure of anything? So this is
the question you get again in religion, whether you know
where theologians and argue right, the world at large will
argue over how can we be sure that, for instance, the.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Bible is true? Or how can we know?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
There are those that have faith and there are those
that do not have faith, And for us it's not
really a matter of faith, it's a matter of So
as I said earlier, we are much more. We embrace
the technical MATI that's what that's what we're really has
propelled how we think and operate. The rest of it
(21:10):
is historical and you know, philosophical and so on. So
if we look at Nagaminos teching not only so, it's
easy for me to sit here and say, well, they're
very accurate. Well when the question is how do you
know that? And my answer is by what it does,
(21:30):
and it's we managed to arrive at what it does
because this Matchi Bayashi shin version was so accurate, no
disrespect to shot Can and I mean that sincerely. I
had a lot of association with some superb shut can
practitioners and and looking at shutter can aesthetically gymnastically how
(21:57):
tidy and tight it is, but can't I won't to
say anything to detract from it, but if you can
trast them. The altered the Techi Techi series which followed
the same three series three kata series, so Techie Showdown
(22:18):
Nan and Sandan, which are commensurate with all parallel to
then by HANSI Showdwnn and Sandan.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
You can see that well our.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Evidence, it demonstrates that the loss of the function has
led to the alterations of the kata, and that began
actually before subject.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Came was created.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
That began when the three kata, which were originally one,
were broken into three parts for.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Reasons that we won't be able to cover in this
in this podcast.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
But you can see then that the for instance, the
crucial opening that is where the rolls back into the palm,
which you can see in multi chokies very clear photographs
of Night Hanchen in his particular publication which I'm not
(23:15):
going to get sidetracked on, but that's completely discarded in
the Shotakan Techie Showdown Cattle in a very similar way
that Mayagi Chojn Sense discarded the original opening of the
Sanjin and in fact, I would suggest borrowed the opening
(23:37):
from Night Hanchen, But that's another story. Maaggie Sense discarded
the opening of Sanchin in the same way that Ysotocan school.
I'm not going to pin this to any particular individual.
I'm not going to lay this one at the feet
of of Punicosiitchen sensey. But the cat were old and
(24:01):
one of the big the key thing is in the matsibiacity.
You've got a clearer when looking at the two fundamental
grips that are used, the sword and scabbard. They they
change and they change in a way that's not possible
physically with it when you're locking the human limbs. And
it's details like that that allowed us to see, ah,
(24:25):
this is where they've changed this, and this is where
they've changed that. Or you see where a movement that's
a small movement and doesn't seem to do.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Very much.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Has been exaggerated to become a big movement, a smashing movement.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
But where once you.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Get the function, you realize that that would not be correct.
So you can see it's the same culprit. It's the
loss of function that leads to the catter ultimately being changed.
So it's the function to answer the question. It's the
function that allows us to be clear on the format.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Of the kata.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
And in that regard, as we've constantly said, the Maxibashi
shin Roue are pretty accurate. There are still fundamental flaws,
as I repeat, they stem from the kata being broken
into three parts.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
But the.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Act, the length of the stance, the height of the arms,
the actual arrangement, the two lock up because it's all correct,
absolutely correct, and also very importantly, it's funny that different
groups retained different important parts, but the very famous night
Hanchen clenched fist, which we highlight in two or three publications,
(25:46):
still persisted, and strangely that one found its way into
Karati do Quhan in the nineteen thirty six editions and
in the I think It's Fulshome, I think it's a
seven edition, and it's it's translated and demonstrated by Euschemer Tsutoma,
(26:07):
who was a contemporary and former friend of Haarada Mitsuzuki sense.
He demonstrates in that book in the hand weapons section,
one of the fist clenches that's demonstrated. Is that very
strange some finger index finger tucked in nihanchin, which is,
(26:32):
you know, as we've written, you know, on a number
of occasions, is a ridiculous way to punch any anybody
or anything. I don't know of any cases where that
type of fist was used against the makua.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I could be wrong, I could be wrong.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
But the changing of the kata generally, whether it's karate
kata or gum fu forms, generally, the changes occur when
the function has been lost.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
So presumably the original functions of the antique forms were
once known in Okinawa. What might have caused these functions
to be lost? I don't think they were ever known
in Okinawa. I think they were lost in China. And
I think that the people that brought them to a
Canawa most likely didn't know the functions either. That's what
(27:27):
the evidence I think points to.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
At the moment. It's it's difficult because we've we've all
been sort of raised on this idea of the sort
of a mystical past where where one assumes that everyone
knew what they were doing, and the masters were the masters,
and and you know, certainly people that have been involved
(27:52):
in it a long time have brought up a certain
way to believe that the the catter were were the
essence of the art. And in fact, I can't remember
the original name of Nagamine Sense's book, but the translation
(28:12):
for the English edition it was his title was translated
as the Essence of Okin Now and Karate, and within
that book you find the representation I can't remember Tom's
at eighteen Matsubiasi lu Kata. When I first bought that book,
and I bought it on my birthday in nineteen seventy nine,
(28:35):
it was very expensive, beautifully presented book, wonderful.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
I couldn't believe that.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I never would have imagined that one day I would
have a book of mine published by the same publisher.
I have reason was an amazing I digress. The book itself,
called The Essence of Ocow and Karate, was really but
just lots of kata. There was a very very brief
(29:03):
section on pairs work on fixed community at the back
of the book, and but most of the book were
photographs of the kata, preserving the kata, and yes, the
Essence of Oka Now and Karate, but that you know,
we it gives an indication that of the thinking that
(29:28):
the kata were the karatic and that's how you know,
people in my generation and we were raised that. Younger
people now, people just starting out now are faced with
a very different martial art world. They're faced with the
world of mixed martial arts, and as the Kata have
gradually become less trusted, people are more experienced with the
(29:52):
whole idea of martial arts away from the sort of
stuff that there was available when I was at school.
There was sort of boxing and wrestling and judo, and
you know, most people at school with just about begun
to hear about karate. And you know, we've got a
(30:12):
sneak of sort of it appeared in sort of James
Bond films, sort of chops on the neck and strange,
inscrutable fighting that was so un European or so yeah,
so unlike anything that we've seen. The The landscape changed
completely now and we're seeing very effective combat systems that
(30:38):
don't don't have and why would they have kata because
they're not they're not they're not weapons. That's forms a
very strong part of our arguments. I was just thinking
about what what if some people had seen these weapons
drills being practiced without their weapons, had sort of over
time learned them without being taught probably, and then they've
(31:02):
got this and then they think, oh, you've got this
set of drills that you're practicing.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
You don't know what they do.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, And now that would be quite possible, wouldn't it,
because people would be practicing this stuff really older thoughts
in public, because it will in places where you'd see it,
or if someone's learned it and not knowing what drills
actually do, and then it gets sold onto other people.
(31:31):
You know, you see that sort of thing happening quite often.
People would do that sort of thing. They see something,
copy it and don't know what it really does. Let's
just me thinking about it off the top of my head.
Really well, there is a theme that reoccurs in marcial
(31:53):
arts films and in the myths, chapter books and legends
of people looking through the fence, a gap in the fence,
through a whole, you know, going back there after day
and watching people training and and and there might be
some tooth that you've raised a really interesting point there, keV.
That that that you know, that's been referred to on
(32:15):
a number of occasions in many publications for a number
of years, and I think that there might be some. Certainly,
what we've got here is material that's been copied and absorbed,
but without being fully understood. One thing I will say is, though,
that the transmission of some of the styles, so or
(32:37):
some of the forms, I'll use the generic term form
rather than Cata.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Or or Tolkien or or or any of that.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
I'll just say form, pattern, sequence the.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Some of them.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Well, we'll go back to our old favorites. Deni hanchin
the Weichi series, and she say, San saill you some
You know, many of the Matsubayashi forms and the wing
chun forms are phenomenally technically accurate. And you know, any
a skeptical person might think, how do you know that?
(33:14):
How do you qualify yourself to make that claim?
Speaker 4 (33:20):
You know?
Speaker 1 (33:21):
And we'll get to that that that will all start
coming out as this whole thing unravels. The ring chun
forms are superb technically, they are supply superb. Now, these
are very accurate. Now it would be difficult to imagine
that these had been picked up by accident or randomly.
So these have been deliberately taught. What we're still unsure
(33:42):
of is the sequence of events. But I think any
sensible thinker would would think, well, there has to be
the technique first, there has to be the tool or
the weapon, you know, and as that weapon develops, then
the way of applying it evolves and refines. So I
think that's the case. But a healthy way to look
(34:04):
at this is that the kata and the weapon use
developing tandem, you know, and like a mother and a father,
they go together. But I still think at the end
of the day, the catch is a textbook, it's a record,
as we keep saying, and are incredibly the ones that
(34:24):
we've discussed, and there are quite a few more, are
technically superb. These are very very accurate. If they were literature,
they'd beat Shakespeare, and if they were philosophy, they'd be
loud to or These are just remarkable pieces of work.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Thanks. Moving on the next question. If nihanti as a
system of empty handed grappling techniques in the Shute tradition
is an exception to the weapon based rule, could it
be the case that something similar once existed for the
Nahat tradition.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
So probably probably not, because the idea of nahate and
shuri te came later. So there there's Okinawa.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
You know, the idea of Shuri te, the idea of
Nahte or Tamari te is an Okinawa idea. That old
classification or grouping or nickname, whatever you want to however
you want to describe it. That the antique kata arrived
without the forms and then were practiced amongst groups. And
(35:38):
you know where you practiced, that was the type of tay,
the type of hand or fist that you practiced. You know, Naha,
Tomari and Shuri I think for in about a two
mile radius of each other. You know there have been
it's just like village boxing. That idea of kung fu
might have come over and so they inherited that sort
(36:00):
of classification or something like that. Possibly, But a Naha
unarmed form wouldn't exist because the three forms preserved in
the weichi that may are the essence of what became nahaka.
The function was lost and no other forms arrived with it.
So Sanchin so San and San Serlio arrived and something
(36:23):
didn't come with it. Whether there were unarmed practices back
in China, that might be a different question. But who
knows on that one?
Speaker 3 (36:31):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
But what we have of those three forms.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Technically, as I said, they are, they are superb They
are accurate in terms of what they do. And I
think there's something that we and I'm not sure if
we were going to have the time to address it now,
so maybe we'll on another occasion. But the insistence that
there are myriad So if you start out with the
(37:01):
belief that there are hundreds and hundreds of innumerable forms,
there are numerable and numerable forms.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
We don't know how many.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
And so therefore this idea that there are weapons that
can't they can't all be weapons. Some of them must
be unarmed. And we'll get to that because we really
if we go back momentarily to the question we've asked
in previous podcasts, think about how you would go about
making a kata or a form creating one? And Tom
(37:36):
issued that not as an aggressive challenge, but as a challenge.
He asked that question, how would you where would you begin?
Speaker 4 (37:44):
You know?
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I think I echoed it in a subsequent podcast, where
would you begin?
Speaker 4 (37:50):
You know?
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And yet these forms do exist in their formulaic we
complete with an embo or four pattern direction of movement,
and we just take it for granted or the masters
knew what they were doing, they just did it.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
But how what was the basis?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Of course with a weapon, the amount of changes and
choices and techniques that you are going to deploy and
for someone that's going up against you, the defenses that
they are going to need will be controlled by that weapon,
and that is a beginning place for how you might
construct a kata or a form. So in that sense,
(38:30):
a just go to flick over to swordsmanship from Japanese
swordsmanship for a moment and look at the ku. Their
their sword kata are a very specific There's no way
that anyone practicing knows but would be trying, would try
to turn a cat into uh uh kata designed to
(38:53):
be used with a kakana, a two handed sword with
the No one would try and use those cat for
grappling or unarmed.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
You know, it's a different thing altogether.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yet that the use of a weapon does facilitate the
ability to produce patterns and directions, and they're going to
be determined by the limitation that clinging onto that weapon creates.
But limitation doesn't occur when a person has no weapons
(39:27):
is wild and free and unpredictable. Could do anything, and
how do you contain that anything possibility in a form?
The answer is you can't.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
It was a rhetorical question, what about so this might
come up? What about as a starting position? As a
starting point? At the starting point was a clinch. You
could say that about anything, couldn't you well? But if
(40:00):
you both slipped over and you started lying down on
the ground, or what if you started back to you'd
end up going on forever and ever and ever and ever.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
And that's what that's the problem. There's too many possibilities,
too many variations. When it's unarmed or it's a fistfight
and it's unnecessary, And it comes back to that point
at the beginning, what what what would be the use
of practicing a cattera for an armed fight? What would
(40:32):
what would be the benefit? How would it improve your
ability within the fight? Pacticeing weapons? You know, there are
skills that are you can derive benefit from doing solo
practice when you haven't got someone to work with, but
that's very limited. Unarmed, you'd be better off shadow boxing
(40:52):
or working on a bag or you know, all that
kind of type of idea might be far more beneficial
if you haven't got people to work with then developing
a cata and and there's just bringing it back around.
There's just too many possibilities. You could, you know, we
could list of one hundred different ways to start, couldn't we,
(41:14):
you know? And which one would be best? Is it?
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Because its futile, I think?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
And just to add to that, let's take the sigh
our old favorite and the ring Chun broadsword, and we
look at the size and they are both pretty much
the length of the forearm, and they both of them
were The sie have two hooks and symmetrical hooks, and
(41:44):
the ring Chun, the bartchum the broad sword just has
one hook. But it's quite interesting that both of these
tools or weapons are deployed in two and only two
ways in terms of their orientation. So the blade is
either open or it's closed, where the blade is flipped
over held against the forearm, and that the point where
(42:12):
you could start to catalog. And a beginning point that
we've suggested in both the Weichi sanchin and the wingtoon
is that ability to flip flip the side or the
blade to have to deploy to be able to move
from one orientation to the other and keep up next
(42:36):
societal context and purpose. So although the techniques and functions
of the antique forms can now be practiced and enjoyed
by all, would their original intention have been from more
select or even elite elements of Okino and society. Yes,
(42:57):
but replace okin album with Chinese, so they would have
been professionals. They would have been selected on that basis
in the same way that you know, you get elite athletes.
Now not everyone can be, you know, an elite athlete,
and you know, in the same bodyguards or military or
(43:17):
police have their selection criteria. Of course, you would have
had had people that were exceptionally skilled natural born fighters.
You know, you're you're you're not training people to fight.
They I imagine they're already very competent fighters or natural
born fighters, and then you're giving them skills, you're adding
(43:40):
to that, inn apes, adding to that. And they would
have been elite athletes as well. I mean in terms
of fitness and strength. When I joined the police force,
I'm not this is not a boast. I had no
idea at the time of how trust that the training
laws because the cadet force I belonged to had carbon
(44:03):
copied the training program from Sandhurst military academy. So we
did so many of the things that they did in
the same way. We got up at the same time,
we did the same distance runs, we made the same bedpack.
Everything was I didn't know it's at the time. It
wasn't until later. In anyway, the interesting thing is at
(44:28):
that stage in the British Police Force you had to
be a five foot eleven to be so in that sense,
I agree with Tom that it would be you if
being five foot eleven makes you elite. Yes, it's an
elite thing, but it is because not everyone's five foot eleven.
So yes, you have to be the right person for
(44:54):
the job. But I think that's true for any job,
isn't it. So I don't want to stretch a point
spoiler point, Tom, But you know, could we say we
could say doctors are elite, We could say accountants are elite,
elite dentist we could say Brickley is layers, you know,
or carpenters are elite because they've got the capability to
(45:17):
do the job, or they get they don't keep the job.
But I think it's horses for courses. So Tom's right
that the operative would have to be strong and fit
and you know, it would be between certain ages if
you turned up for and applied for as a civil
arrest officer, bearing in mind there is no standard police
(45:40):
force in Ming dynasty, China. But if you were sort
of in your eighties and he turned up on the
lookout for a job, I'm not sure if you get one.
So in that sense, yeah, you it's it's a certain
type of job that requires a certain type of person,
and I think that's the same for any kind of employment.
(46:00):
One more thing to say, some of this material that
we're discussing has definite connections with militia, which is another
level up or down, whichever way you want to put it.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
There's a different position.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
From several policing because militia moves not quite military, it's
not battlefield. Those are the distinctions that we've been busy
setting and working out corrector if I get this, if
I go too far, tom keV. But we're not looking
at out and out warfare. So the idea, for instance,
(46:40):
of using sy on a battlefield is a no is
a no and.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Pretty much similar.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Though in the early days I really did think that
the broadswords might be battlefield. I think in discussion and
work done with Tom on that. No, neither of us
believe that. But to get the job, you'd have to
be fit for the job. And so yeah, comes quite right.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Next question, This one's about codoru and holistic cultivation. So
in a previous podcast it was mentioned that the corda
U system is in part a vehicle for holistic, physical
and spiritual cultivation. Could you speak more on how this
is the case.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, Tom, do you want to do that, because you've
got quite a good component in your personal No, no.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
You go nation.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
You created it, You're the creator. I'm picking up the Okay,
thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
Look, I think that.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Our approach and it came out of a stage of development.
So the first book from Tuttle was the first stage
of the second stage was The Barefoot Zen published by Reiser.
So the first book published in Japan's second book published
in the USA.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
And by two thousand we were.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Certainly what we'd set is the idea that because so
many senior masters had said that karate was zen and
Zen was karate. In fact, Nagaminostion said precisely that Maggie
Chojan Sense alluded to it, we accepted that there was
(48:32):
a spiritual component. Not this is careless what I'm about
to say. So, yes, the knights were perhaps they were Christians,
but you know, we can't really say it was Christian warfare.
But that was there the spiritual tradition from which they came,
so it wouldn't be wrong. In fact, we know it's
correct to say that people who practiced in karate came from,
(48:56):
you know, the cultures which practiced the Buddhism and Taoism
and Shinto and Animism.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
But what we recognized was there was a way.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
We originally thought it was how they did it, but
we don't know that you could objectify meditation between pairs.
And the idea was meditation is where you know, the
person sits as serenely as they can in a in
a tranquil way, and and sit still and concentrates, for instance,
(49:36):
on the breath coming in and going out, and the
mind being ever busy, and thought comes in and we
habitually get entangled with our thoughts and off we go,
following them to wherever they take us.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
But the Buddhist thinking was thoughts are a.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Products of the mind, but not the mind itself.
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Ergo.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Therefore, you know there is a way to let go
of those thoughts and not be consumed by them fear, greed, anger, envy,
you know, constant pursuit of benefit and money and advantage.
And the whole idea of or one idea aspect of meditation,
(50:25):
was to spend periods of time transcending that. So that's
a very primitive basis. What we then determine was that,
how about if, in the Shaolin tradition, the thought that
comes and intrudes the mind that the meditator let go
(50:47):
of was to be replaced with a physical force, not
something outrageously violent, but something substantial enough, a push or
pull or a grip in contact where this a force
could be given and the person that's receiving it wouldn't
(51:10):
resist it, because that would be very unzen, very un Buddhist.
They wouldn't resist it, but they wouldn't be overwhelmed by it.
They wouldn't just give in to it. So they would
neither give in nor would they fight. What that left
or leaves is the force would be accepted, not be rejected,
(51:30):
but it wouldn't be agreed with. It would be absorbed
and returned. So it's well, I've got this push, thank you,
but no thank you. So it comes in and it
goes out, you're going to have that back. And this
could then be in the same way that the mind.
We're not only going to train ourselves to let go
(51:51):
of one thought, no anger or greed or envy. We're
going to let go of any thought that comes in
while we're meditated, in the same way while we're for instance,
pushing hands, which would be a medium to express this,
when the arms are in contact and a force is
provided as a sticky force between us, not sticky as
(52:15):
in glue, but it's it's not there's a clinging, loaded,
heavy force much in me I think they call it.
In the Goju mister Maggie used it. Magi Sensei used
that there's a heavy, sticky feeling of absorbing the push
and pull. So there's substantial force being employed, but that
(52:40):
force is taken in, absorbed, circled, and returned and in
the same way that the seated meditator would have to
let go and not be caught and distracted by any
number of thoughts. The practice, the pushing hands practice would
set out to develop as many of those within reason,
(53:04):
using a gate system and angles and heights as to how.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
We might.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Deal with an optimal number of forces that are physical
substitutes for the thoughts entering the mind of a seated meditator.
So this this is the potential for an objectification of
physical physical meditation, which has lots of possibilities, a significant
(53:35):
one as it can be observed, so a teacher can
see can gauge the student's ability to let go of
a force without struggling with it and being overwhelmed, without
becoming aggressive or without being passive, which is considered to
be the middle way, which is one of the ideals
of Zen Buddhism. Just about now, was it done?
Speaker 3 (53:59):
The lovely really nice? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (54:04):
And I think that's quite unique to the Kudu system.
That's not we haven't seen that in any other system.
Tai Chi has pushing hands, go do as kakia.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Both of them tend to lack spontaneity though, and I
think that that's the that what sets the code pushing
hands apart from the other schools of sticky hands or
pushing hands is is the ability to be spontaneous. And
that's that that changes that you're internal That spontaneity allows
(54:43):
something different to happen internally as well. And we in
fixed pushing hands in tai chi, and it doesn't really
someone does something to someone, it's kind of fixed. It's
not and it lacks that spontaneous, spontaneous moment where you
can get caught off balance or you know, and it
(55:05):
wakes you up and brings you back and then you
carry on. And I think it's one of the most
important element of Coderer practices, the pushing hands, and it's
people members past and present when whenever you kind of
come across someone, Oh I did coder Resentureindo years ago,
(55:29):
I really missed.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
The pushing hands.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
It's always it's always the pushing hands that they love.
And it's because that spontaneous element and quality of it,
and the thing that because we don't practice fighting or
self defense, it's it leads somewhere different. It has the
potential to be something completely different without without that kind
(55:57):
of on your you know, that that potential violence or
the fight on your back all the time. Yeah, I
don't think you could have zen and karate together if
if fighting was involved.
Speaker 3 (56:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Yeah, getting one over one for another day.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Well, we'll explore more on this on pushing hands in
another episode this. Yeah, we've got plenty of videos on
the YouTube channel as well. I'm going to move on
to our final question specific kata resources. So a commentator asked, said,
you have mentioned passi kata and staff retention seems to
(56:40):
make its based on the movements. They agree, Where do
I find more on this topic? I trained with Fumio
de Mura since in the seventies and eighties in Santa Ana, California,
and learned multiple kata then with very little bonki explanations.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Yeah, there's a short answer is that we haven't got
any video footage of it yet because I haven't filmed it,
but we will do.
Speaker 3 (57:10):
We will do soon.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
It's I think it's just worth quickly mentioning as well
in a couple of books. One of them is by
a guy called Bruce Clayton, and he wrote, I think
it's I've got it on my shelf, show to Can's Secret.
It's absolutely fantastic book. He references a couple of and
I think Andreas Quast has written about this as well.
(57:34):
There's a couple of references where Okinawan teachers have alluded
to pasai and kushan ku both being something to do
with the bow and they both are that was the
original function. So I suppose it raises the questions if
(57:55):
the idea of what they were might have come along
but the actual technical function didn't. So there's a little
bit of all history there, which is is really quite interesting.
So I wouldn't say yeah, and it was reading that
that helped to kind of dive in to those catad
from that perspective. But there'll be a lot more to
(58:15):
say on Passai and Pusenkhu and the other the Shui
te the palace hand. There'll be a lot more to
say on that. Yeah, yeah, and see yeah, yeah, we
will be making it available. And this is really very
much Tom's field expertise. But interesting that that should be
(58:39):
a question because just yesterday I was revisiting there's some
footage of phoenicochi sense.
Speaker 3 (58:48):
Going again.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
I can't identify the who he's facing, but he's facing
a bow staff and he's using a pair of sigh
He's not using him them in the way that the
way you would use them, and it has an improvised
look about it. But one has to wonder where does
that come from? Where where does that actually come from?
(59:14):
So I think you're r liked on that the that
has sort of inadvertently come over but disconnected from the
very cata that it should be associated with. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
if they if they were, if the kata were taught
by people that did know the function, you know, it
(59:36):
would be interesting to we could speculate on why the
functions were passed on. It might be there wasn't simply time.
It might have been if someone was part of an
envoy or trade well, you know, stopping in Okinaw. There
might have only been time to learn the kta, you know,
and not necessarily the function. That might have been the
(59:57):
point that it got lost, or it might have been before,
way before then. Who knows. You know, there's lots of
different cata, so there are lots of different stories there,
and on one size isn't going to fit all in
that respect, so there's plenty to explore from lots of
different perspectives. Girl, was I thinking about some of the
(01:00:19):
cars I used to watch and do, and I've ever
been given many, very very few explanations to what they have.
No one ever did. It's very very rare, very rare.
So it's just an ongoing thing, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
And that wraps up another illuminating question. Time or great
karate myth debunking legends. Today, we challenge the idea of
kata as primary training methods and explored how weapons bands
likely influenced their solo practice. We also touched upon the
fascinating concept of physical meditation in the Cardo root system.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Thank you for your incredible questions.
Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
If you enjoyed this deep dive, please subscribe to our podcast,
leave us a review, and visit.
Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Our website for more resources.
Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
You can also follow us on social media for updates.
See you next time.
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