May 24, 2024 • 58 mins
Karate has evolved from its classical roots to the modern sport we know today. In the past, Kata was central to Karate and practitioners would repeat forms over and over again without much attention to their function. However as Karate spread and sparring was introduced, Kata took a backseat. Early founders aimed to conform to the existing ideas of Kendo, a modern form of Japanese swordsmanship. Despite this, some influential figures in Karate did not favour competitive or free sparring. Antique Kata like Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Naihanchin date back to the 14th century and came from China. The origins of Okinawan Karate Kata can be traced back to late 17th century, a period of time when Europeans were colonising the Americas, but the styles weren't named until later on, and some kata were associated with the Okinawan palace and its guards. Karate didn't gain serious momentum until after World War II. In this episode we're diving deep into the fascinating transformation of Karate, from its perceived classical roots to the dynamic styles practiced today. We'll explore Karate's hidden history from its functional roots to the classical styles emerged later, and ultimately how it transformed into the modern sport we know today.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome back to Great Karaatei Myths. Today we're diving deep
into the fascinating transformation of karate from its perceived classical
roots to the dynamic styles practice. Today we'll explore karates
hidden history, from its functional roots to the classical styles
in large later, and ultimately how it's transformed into the
modern sport you know today. So if you're curious about
(00:27):
the true story behind karates evolution, entitle you or yuwagi
and get ready to learn. Welcome gents, let's get straight in.
Tom would you like to kick off this discussion by
defining what we mean by classical and modern karate.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
From a cata perspective, there's no such thing as classical karate.
There's you know what we've talked about already, there's forms
katas which were manuals, so that's not classical karate, but
that became the source material for what later developed into
(01:09):
modern karate. Really, it's really when there's sort of two
just think periods. There's that when kata was central to
it and then when sparring became central. That's one way
of looking at it. And lots of ideas built up
were built up around kata practice that may not necessarily
(01:34):
be true because they didn't have the functions of the forms.
So we can break that down. And so this idea
that you'd learn, you know, three years for one kata, why,
what's what's that about? You know, get you prett Of
course you pointed out that experts would have only typically
known three to five kata in the day, back in
(01:56):
the day, Why is that true? And so there's these
different ideas that are built up around the forms, and
that's sort of that was the sort of sense. These
ideas were central to the practices of the time. So
you went to your teachers, you practice the kata over
and over again, they gave you a nod whether it
was any good, and then you just do it again
(02:16):
and again and again. There's not a lot of descriptions
in the from the early pioneers of being taught bunki
applications of forms, or you know, Funakoshi's own recollections of
learning techi. He doesn't describe that he in any way
spent any time grappling with a tosu or being taught.
(02:37):
Why the fist shape, which we know and talked about
many times, why it was that it was simply lots
and lots of repetition, and that was how you mastered karate. Then,
as karate spreads into Japan at the influence of other
martial arts and the drive to expand karate and establish it,
sparrings introduced, and kata eventually starts to take a bit
(03:00):
of a back seat, and it's there in the and
it takes on a new life later on in the
creative interpretation. But sparring is what drives and moves it
all forward, really and what spreads it to become a
global phenomenon. Yeah, if you want to jump in there, one.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Of the drivers of the creation of modern karate. Whilst
the fairly conscious attempt to make to make karati conform
two existing ideas of kendo, which was the the modern
(03:40):
form of Japanese swordsmanship in which practice was conducted with
split bamboo imitation swords referred to as shinai, and of
course kendo was primarily a sport with an emphasis on competition.
The founders of karate decided to take early founders of
(04:00):
styles probably should say decided to take some of them
to take karat in that direction. Although curiously, the two
of the biggest names if you liked influences that's a
better word on karati. Notably Phenicosti chen founder of the
Shuttaken style, and of course Mayagi Chojan, founder of the
(04:20):
Gojuru style, weren't directly. In fact, Phenoicosti disliked a competitive
karate and it didn't even care much for sparring or
free free sparring rather and and talk instead fixed sparring.
Mayagi Chojan himself the founder of gojur you know, there's
(04:42):
not a lot of evidence to suggest that he was
in any way an enthusiastic of sports karate or even
particularly been on free sparring. That all came later. In fact,
you know, the whole the whole idea of karate is
relatively recent. You know, we're looking at something that didn't
really begin its formation or serious for leaving aside the
(05:06):
antiquity of the of the of some of the kata,
we're looking at something well, it was it was underway
certainly in the nineteen twenties, but it really didn't get
going until seriously until post World War two. So the
to keep to the point, most karate could be considered
(05:27):
as as modern as a practice, as a club activity.
Most of it is indeed pretty or more accurately, I
sal I could say post modern, but it's it's has this.
I think Robert W. Smith, the American author on Largely
Chinese Masters, described something along similarized when referring to he
(05:52):
was actually talking about a Chinese style baguar, but he
referred to, you know, having the pleasant flavor of antiquity,
which is really what how karati seems to present. But
pretty much it's it's modern. What is not modern? We
(06:12):
can look at what we've referred to as previously as
antique kata, and that would be kata like the Sanchuan
that we've discussed considerably already, and perhaps the Ni Hanchen
looked to be very early. They look to be late
Ming early Qing dynasty, so give some context. There's certainly
(06:35):
seventeenth century, appear to be seventeenth century. But they arrived
from China rather they they yeah, they they they came
up through an hour and as Tom has already pointed out,
they didn't come with any applications, often termed bunki. So
(06:58):
the films, it was assumed that, you know, repeated practice
of the forms would confer mastery with no attention to
what the forms actually did. Now, that's not my opinion
that the lack of or the paucity of applications is
often described as it was. The Clatter was secret so
(07:18):
that there were no written records. All that the early
Creti masters were illiterate, illiterate peasants, Well, that's not accurate
at all, funicost sense. The was was himself a Confucian
scholar and a schoolmaster. And you know, yes, undoubtedly there
were uneducated practitioners, but a lot of the practitioners actually
(07:42):
on record were indeed well educated and well educated. I
could give several examples, but I think the points already
made so that the Catter themselves are the original. It's
difficult where it goes now to classify the kata, but
(08:02):
the antique as we've turned them, antique kata like the
Sanchin and the night Hanchin, you know, as I've already said,
you know from the seventeenth century. And yet as Tom's
pointed out, they were they weren't organized into into ruja
styles or family schools. They were one did the kata
they weren't. There weren't styles, and in fact, Punkosi Chichen
(08:25):
did not like the idea of naming. He didn't name
his school shot a can that was done by his students,
in the same way that Maggi Chodn did not designate
his school as go juru. In fact, that came about
when he'd sent Juhatsukiyoda to as a representative to mainland
Japan for a demonstration. He was yeah, he he he
(08:51):
gave a demonstration and at that time, actually historically why
we well, our recess indicates he may well have only
known three kata that would be sanchin sash and I
believe ten show as they call it. But he gave
a demonstration nonetheless, and he was asked to just the
name of his school, and and he didn't actually have one,
(09:12):
so he concocted one. He referred to what he was
demonstrated demonstrating as hank Hank kill ru half hard and
half soft. When he went back to Wa Cana and
reported back to Maggi Jojan, then Magie consulted the uh Well,
(09:33):
a well known manual the Bubishi and and and chose
to determine to describe his school as a go ju,
which is half hard, half soft, hard soft, which is
basically the same as Hank kill Rue, but he'd actually
he designated it as goes you do so even you know,
(09:55):
the styles didn't get their names until late late uh
and from that point on they became styles, recognizable styles,
but they never were. I think I've got to take
I'm not wearing a hat, but metaphorically take my hat
off to a conversation, a long conversation I had with Tom,
(10:15):
or one of many splendid conversations over the last few years.
But when Tom, I'm sorry, I don't want to steal
your thunder Tom. Tom was speaking about the O Canawan Palace,
the connection that it has with some of the quotes masters,
and that there seems to be a connection with the
Royal Shudi, which is one of the main cities or
(10:36):
the capital city indeed O Canawa. And and Tom was
postulating that we were discussing the idea that which had
been reflected actually in the work of Mark Bishop of
the term palace hand and some karati had been obliquely
referred to as palace hand. And looking at this and
(11:01):
again take off my metaphoric hat to Tom on the well,
I'll leave it to Tom to discuss if if it's
okay about the bow. I don't want to steal your thunder.
But there's a great indicator of of what these kata.
You know. It's not that you know, there were many
(11:21):
many cata extents, and some of them are are old
at date from the times that I've already mentioned, but
a lot of them were associated not then, not not
the Sanchinsen and the san Siliu, but the other group
of kata from the so called Suri school rather than
Naha school, which are associated associated with the Royal Shuri
(11:43):
Palace and the guards. And we can see why. And
it's not that they would learn a whole significant number
of these kata. You know, as a collector, you know
you have to learn you know, nine, nine, fifteen or
more kata. A modern day shota can has over twenty seven.
Go Juru has twelve. Typically, it's not that the guards
(12:08):
would have to learn them all. I think it depended
on their station, because different kata were for you using
different tools. Of Tom's indicated. Some are for the zai,
which is actually particularly the Nahar tradition, but some are
for the ton for and some Tom's excellent work on
disarming a bow staff with the long six foot plus
(12:29):
staff or retaining possession of one when it's trying to
be removed from you. It seems to be reflected in
some of these kata. So it's not that somebody would
learn okay, you now have to learn all you know,
all of these depends on your job. And we can
look at this in modern policing, in which you might
(12:51):
you know, in London, in England, you would see, you know,
there are mounted police who ride horses, there are police
who had who are dog handlers who handle dogs. There
are regional squad cars, there are traffic police. There are
many sort of different divisions that require different skill sets.
Why should it be any different for you know, for
(13:14):
you know, the the the Theoan Palace. Why should it
be all for policing in general? Well, originally in China
and later in Okinawa, just to round that up, by
the time it gets to Japan, as kadetic, all of
that is out of the picture and what's inherited. Ultimately
(13:36):
there are a set of physical movements that look to
all intents and purposes like some exotic unarmed combat. And
you know, a question I asked that will be thirty
five years ago now was how come we don't find
such an approach in other countries. Don't find it in
(13:56):
Europe particularly or on the African continent, we don't find
that that approach to unarmed fighting. And it's quite interesting
that pretty much every culture in society has wrestling, but
the idea of boxing. It's just assumed that there's always
the potential for a combative ballistic punch kick fighting art
(14:20):
that can be contained in forms or certainly was in
in in an hour, if not in China. That that's
peculiar to Chinese thinking into Oriental thinking. It's steeped in mystery.
And you know, but actually all over the world there's
there's wrestling, but not not not particularly these percussive ballistic arts.
(14:44):
And yet you know what people have done. Enthusiasts and
early scholars of modern cutting have tried to say, well, yes,
there always has been some form of ballistic pancation. I
don't know if I pronounce it very well. I've only
ever really reddit although in some some sort of Greco
(15:05):
Roman or Greek form of boxing with spiked gloves. You know,
common sense dictates that you know, anyone, if ever they
did practice such a thing, other than perhaps gladiators, it
wouldn't last long you couldn't how would you, you know,
have survived. The training evidence is scant. I'm not saying
there is none, I'm saying it's scant. So the actual
(15:26):
wrestling is endemic. You know, every culture, or most cultures.
I'm sure someone can find a culture that doesn't have wrestling.
Boxing is not. This is often confused karate and boxing,
free sparring, jumbled up. And actually, you know, if you
really look at boxing, and we're not doing boxing history
(15:46):
at this point, but we're looking at the Marcus of
Queensbury type of boxing with the rules and the stances
and the ring and the rounds, which didn't exist before.
That itself is fairly recent and as you know, arose
with the markets of Greensburry and many some of the
postures were certainly pre fighting postures were adopted by notable
(16:08):
karate teachers.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
So if the usefulness of kata can be successfully divorced
from the dynamic modern sport of karate, why do we
think it was put together in the first place.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So, just going back to talking about the palace hand
and bodyguarding or palace guards, it's really another one of
those kind of contexts or territories where specific martial skills
were formalized into forms, and it can offer perhaps one
(16:43):
of a few reasons why kata were put together in
the first place. These physical manuals, it's very very easy
to then if you've got a method of how a
palace should be guarded, or training bodyguards or palace guards
or police or whatever, you can then send someone who's
an expert in those forms out to a satellite province
(17:07):
or an outpost or something, and they can then train
people in the form very very quickly. It doesn't require
the ability to read, you know, it's not easy to
read Chinese, you know, it's not everyone would have been
educated to the level to be able to read and
interpret a written manual at that time. But a physical form,
(17:31):
a physical manual is something that's quite quickly can be
quite quickly learned. And so it's very interesting that forms
like kusan ku passai and gorjushiho, amongst others, found their
way into people working in the Okinawan Royal Court. And
(17:53):
this has been well this has been written about a
lot and is well recorded elsewhere that the Okinawan Royal
Court was a kind of a satellite of the of China,
and they paid tribute to the Chinese emperors and so on,
and it's in the forms that they have and practiced there,
(18:16):
like kusen Ku were in fact manuals for palace guards
and their tools and the skills they needed to bodyguard
and protect the palace. And so they've inherited those forms,
which is really quite it's either really lucky or it's
not coincidence. It's hard to say really because those forms
(18:40):
don't exist in China anymore. But what you've got are
forms that are well suited to the context of protecting
the king, protecting the palace, and working with the layout
of the palace as well, which you see in some
of the techniques of the weaponry that the environment is
well considered as well. So that's another element in the
(19:07):
antique forms, the forms inherited from China is that in
the original function, the environment would have been given a
consideration as well. So you know, if you're fighting on
a battlefield, you might be in a wide open space,
it's not jungle warfare. But if you're looking after a
palace or you're policing in the streets, you might be
in quite an enclosed environment and need to be able
(19:28):
to operate the tools and the skills within quite a
small space or not, you know, So that's another area
that's useful when exploring these original functions. Again, not just
a street fight where space is unlimited. The ground's lovely
and even you're not going to slip over, you know,
(19:50):
a concrete flat concrete is usually what's assumed. You know,
if you start factoring in a staircase, for example, like
you would in a palace, or a narrow passageway or
you know, uneven ground, flippery ground, all that kind of stuff,
it changes the way that you would move. And so
the footwork and the stances and the postures consider the
(20:15):
are fun considerations of what environment you're going to be
operating in as well. So there's that palace hand represents
another context alongside perhaps something like civil policing, which is
what the SI would have been used for. And the
value in having a physical manual means is it's easily
(20:38):
transported outwards and other people can be trained without requiring
high levels of literacy or needing to interpret a from
a book. You can be shown the form how to train,
how to develop your skills, and left to get on.
That kind of also brings up what we then talked
(20:59):
about earlier in is three years one catter necessary and
the answer is no, that's something that's been added on
later on. With something like the way Chi sanchin. In
the use of the si you should be pretty competent
in about six weeks and pretty good after around six
months ready to take on the the the kind of
(21:22):
extension and some techniques for in the Seysan and or
the Sanseio.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
And you wouldn't need.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
A great deal because it's very very specific what the
function is. So somebody can be trained up in a
few months and they can be out using and applying
the skills. If you had to train with the sire
for three years just in the sanchin before you're even
good enough to step up into the Safe said, it's
(21:52):
not a practical means to train someone. You need to
be good quickly. You find within the sand and these
other forms the means to really cut through to what's
important quite quickly and get that quite quickly. Once your
grips are good, once your dexterity is good, then you
(22:13):
can start working on some of these techniques in the
in the Seysan and going out and getting that all
important experience in applying them. And just to finish off
on that point about contexts. One, you know, we've talked
about civil policing and perhaps guarding a palace or bodyguarding.
(22:35):
Another context that can be considered is theatrical as well.
So some form based martial arts have clearly inherited forms
or routines perhaps for the stage that are clearly not
combatively effective, armed or unarmed, and use the body in
(22:57):
a way that just wouldn't be practical for palace guarding.
And they also wouldn't be very good in a street
fight or an MMA fight or anything like that. So examples,
you know, something like monkey boxing, something like that, Paul
Zinc comes to mind. The American martial arts instructor used
(23:20):
to do these incredible forms monkey staff and very very
gymnastic and acrobatic, and they're kind of what's survived from opera,
Chinese opera. And so that's another context to consider when
research in these forms. So it's not just assume, well,
(23:42):
we've never just assumed that these were going to be
practical combative skills with some kind of military or civil context.
It could be theater, but what you don't ever find
is that it's street fighting.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Beautifully made point, well, a number of points that were
deeply interconnected. I think that the it's good to introduce
I said in the past, and we've agreed that there
you know, there was the idea of self defense. There
was there was the aesthetics the art, an idea of
having an art of karate or a doe which will
(24:20):
discuss not not necessarily on another occasion, but also the
idea of self defense when I was young. So let
me think now, well, this is not a boast. It
is just a quick reflection. I've got fifty years experience
good grief. It's flown by, and I've I've loved karate
(24:44):
mine as long as I can remember. But I I
can remember being told, and I wrote about this in
a number of publications and books. How long does it
take to master the art of karate? Oh? Typically something
I was told It takes years. It takes years, twenty years.
(25:07):
And I've written and I've said, imagine if you went
to decided to take up tennis, and so you go
to a tennis club and you speak with the coach
and you say, well, well to play tennis, Howng's it
going to take me to get you know? To become
twenty years you know, really would people accept that, No,
(25:27):
it does it take twenty years. That's not to decry
the experienced professional you can take. You know, I don't
know Tiger Woods springs to mind. With golf. No one
can say he's still good.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
So someone can be doing pursuing something, you know, for
twenty plus years and still have a degree of skill
and competency. But it doesn't mean that it takes twenty years,
nor should it take twenty years to And I just
refer to something Tom said, and we've agreed on this
in the past. You know, if you look at any
(26:00):
any basic training in services, in policing, and you know,
particularly I'm not in agreement with conscription, by the way,
but in conscription six weeks you get your six you know,
you get your six weeks training and that's it, you know,
and then you do you do the rest on the job.
You know. You couldn't imagine saying, well, we're going to
(26:20):
train police officers, but it will take you know, We've
got to plan ahead here because they're not going to
be any good for twenty years, you know, or even
three years. And I agree with Tom's you know, view
that you know six weeks and you know, then six
months you know and and you know it's only not only,
(26:41):
but karate is typical of something that you know, we're
you know, I've been guilty of this or talk about
rather than put this burden on others, you know, in
the past, not saying yeah, this takes this, this will
take years talking to students and instructing students. When I,
(27:05):
as an instructor in those early days of instructing that
would be in the early eighties, didn't know what the
forms did myself. I know only what I'd been told
and what I'd try to make up myself. This is
a position that lots of coaches and teachers, martial art
teachers were in, have always been in. In fact, the
(27:28):
reason it takes twenty years or longer and some people
never get an understanding because if you don't no disrespect
to any individuals. That's why I'm not using names except
my own, except me referring to myself. If you don't
know what the forms are for, then you know you're
going to spend years wandering around these forms. I think
it was Maggie Chojan that said, well, I think I
(27:50):
don't think I know it was recorded by Mario Highana
essentsely Go, a very senior gojuru, a teacher of suitable prominence,
who was quoting Baggy Trojan Sense, the founder of go
Judu Karati, who said, ah, you know, he was feeling
disconsolate and wrote wrote it. He said, here I am,
(28:12):
after all these years, still wandering around in the dark,
and that to me, whilst it's not explicit, it's a
tacit statement that he didn't really still didn't really know
what the function of a kata were, which I think
led him to be very creative in the way that
he was. That's obviously another subject that we'll get into.
(28:34):
But on topic, the difference between the classical or the
antique of the old karat in the modern karate, just
to summarize before handing back over the is that it
the back in the day, as Tom put it earlier,
there was just the CTUs and as as Nagaminization wrote
(28:54):
and others have reflected on a great chadron route or
should teacher learned kata from one sense, one didn't expect
to learn self defense or fighting from one's sensing, and
that actually was the view generally taken there. So the
old way of training was kata. That was it, kata
(29:16):
that then developed into having let's have a set of basics,
so repetitive marching up and down with punching and blocking
and kicking and so on instantly kicking. They don't really
occur in the antique gattering insignificant way, certainly not in
the way that they're used today. But there was only
the kata. What then happened is through transition actually acquired
(29:37):
a set of basics which were particularly suitable for teaching children.
And then of course the sparring, and as I've commented before,
that produced three types of training which not really direct
appeared to be related, but they're not. And the modern
karate contains all of those elements, whereas the traditional karate
(29:57):
consisted just pretty much primarily of of practicing cata. Not
to say there weren't attempts, and there certainly photographic evidence
to show early founders applying what appeared to be categories,
but nothing nothing that was systematic or logical, progressive, or
(30:19):
actually particularly functional. Just before handing over. One of the
biggest problems that faced those early teachers is the same
problem that faces people today who are trying to use
traditional kato in a freestyle situation is you can't because
(30:40):
you don't well, you don't know what the opponent's doing,
where their punctual kick is going, which height its at.
So the general response is to get yourself out of
the way and slap away whatever comes reflexively, and all
those magnificent cata and all those intricate, magnificent movements becoming
(31:00):
possible to apply in a freestyle situation because the context
is completely wrong.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I think that highlights a point as well that what
we're talking about in terms of the original functions isn't
weapons used in a dueling context about a twoing and throwing.
It's not it's a pair of sigh, sparring a bow
or jeweling a bow or anything like that. What's a
(31:30):
common thread that exists in the antique forms is that
they're really about going first preemption. And there's not the
reason that sparring didn't evolve with these old forms and
things like that when they were put together is because
you can't. You can't spa with them. It's not a
(31:50):
reciprocal it's not an exchange, it's not a match, it's
not a jewel. But the idea of a jewel has
become very, very ingrained in the kind of perception of
karate that you square off against everything from start to
finishes about one on one. It's very and that's that
(32:14):
is a modern development, and that's that's an outside idea
that didn't exist in the original functions of the forms.
So using that Sanchin as an example again, and that
the methodology of using a sign of the sie, a
pair ofsie, it's not as you would see in modern kabudo,
where they've taken that idea of dueling and put it
(32:36):
back into a weapons exchanges where someone with a bow
or a bock end squares off against someone with some
sigh and there's a block and accounter and an exchange.
It's not that at all. The person with the side
will be intending to go first to restrain, pin, trap, press,
and overwhelm. And that's what you see in these forms.
(32:58):
The techniques are not lingering on a gap. It's closing
the space down as quickly as possible to apply the
tool with the intention of going first overwhelming them, being
in charge of the situation. I know that's not always
going to be successful or the case, but that's the
(33:20):
general intention, and so sparring methods don't really bring anything
of value to these older martial skills that we see
in the palace hand or the civil methods of for example,
using the SI or restraining and things like that. And
that's a clear difference between the classical classical methods and
(33:43):
modern karate and approaching catter. We can't approach antique forms
from the mindset of a duel of sparring or a scenario,
because there aren't. It's not scenarios, they're kind of methods
and maps of how to navigate the territory and overwhelm
within that territory. As soon as someone drew from sigh, say,
(34:06):
for example, you've got a pair of side and someone's
in front of you with a knife. If you haven't
followed the method that's been taught or the education you
received in your forms, and you go right, well, we're
going to duel this out. It's anyone's game, then you're
right back in that jeweling territory. And that's exactly where
(34:27):
you want to what you would want to avoid in
trying to use these skills efficiently, and so sometimes it's
hard to kind of wrap your head around the mindset,
because I know from my own experience coming from Waderoo,
it's very much dueling that mindset that the set the
(34:47):
starting distance, the set distance, the bunci takes place. Quite formally,
this is what it does at this that's so far removed.
That is a modern imprint by based on these antique forms.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
One of the yeah, one of the a big, a
key significator for this. A person who really influenced this,
although not himself agreeing with Freespiring, the founder of shotoken,
Phunicosi sens He used a term karati is senti nashi
(35:23):
that translates, I mean it's normally said there's no first attack,
but senti nashi, there's no first hand, there is no
in other words, you don't go attack first, which is
precisely the opposite of what's actually required. And I'm not
contradicting Punicosi Sensei because you'll discover, you know later in
with us that the deep respect we have for him
(35:45):
and his creation of what we perceive as are the
art of karatei do or the way of karate, rather
than has loosely been interpreted in the past karati jutsu
or the technique which is you know, I don't find
that particularly useful, but you know it can work. There
is no first strike basically postulates or posits that the
(36:09):
karati is therefore primarily defensive. So there should always be
ok or crudely translated as a block otherwise terms as
a way of receiving a force or an attack. That
should that should be first uh and then you know
the counter and and it's been said quite correctly that
all of the fact not correctly, that all of the
cat are structured that way. Well as we've been referencing
(36:33):
all along that or Tom's just putting really into context.
You need to go first. It's it's proactive and preemptive.
It's not reactive and defensive. And that's that's that's it,
that's its edge, and that will be true. Let's just
hop over from night Hanchen to the other to another
key kata from the sister or brother style of karati
(36:54):
suley your cholin away from the naha and look at
the night hanchin. Guess what same principle that the opera
the operator needs to go first to get the adversary
under control immediately. And it's particularly in a very specific way.
It's it's control and then control a total control of
(37:15):
those limbs before they can do any harm. It's you know,
it's it's a preventative measure. The idea, not the idea
that the reality that's it is that you cannot use
the techniques from the CATA once an opponent or adversary
is flailing away at you. You know you can't then
suddenly go into CATA mode. And you know, if this
(37:37):
is coming all over the place from every angle and
somehow you're supposed to miraculously respond, that's that's not that's
not at all how it was structured. And so Tom's
quite right. It's preemptive. The operative goes first.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
It's just going to add something to that as well.
If people want to have a quick look at a
couple of the segments of the Night Hanschen grappling, they
can see that on the YouTube channel as well. You've
got a couple of clips of some of the grappling
catalog of Night Hanschin. The point you may where if
they if someone ends up flailing or fighting, you're really
going for it, it's not going to work. By the
(38:11):
time you've reached that point, that skill set isn't going
to is no longer that valid. The gobvious question is
were how would that have been dealt with? And it
it's dealt with by that, you wouldn't have been on
your own. So in a civil policing, a civil policing
or body guarding, you're not the only palace guard or
(38:31):
you're not the only civil police officer or whatever. You're
working in teams, and that is also something that is
in my opinion, considered in the context the territories for
these different Marshall skill sets. So in karate, you know,
there's modern karate. The modern perspective is how do you
(38:52):
take on multiple opponents? The classical perspective in the antique
forms is how do we work together to take down
one and so one? The exact reverse again, when you
have two people that are trained in the same method
the same methodology. If you've got two people armed with
a pair of SiGe, I mean, your chance of success,
(39:16):
especially if you're both going first, is going to be huge.
And if where one person may be failing, the other
person is then stepping in and attempting to overwhelm from
the others. You know, So it's obvious and it's all
the problems that modern karate has in dealing with multiple
opponents are the very reasons why those antique forms were
(39:39):
so successful, Because you would be working in a partnership
or a team. You'd be a team of bodyguards, you'd
be a team of police officer. That's an important fact.
And one of the criticisms that we've had before about
the night Handchin is people look at the grappling that
the sequence, the catalog and they say, well, that would
never work well one on one, you know, when you're
(40:02):
looking at that castle. Yeah, you could argue that, but
if you've got two people grabbing someone's limbs to restrain
and over, that kind of really overwhelming, both knowing how
each other's operating, like police officers do now, if one
person tries to arrest a person, it's very very difficult.
(40:23):
But if you've got two or three, I know, it's
still difficult. Your chances of getting that person restrained and cuffed,
you know, are far far better. And you still see
wristlocks and pain compliance and restraining via the arms and
hands used today. Maneuvers are still there, teams working together
(40:48):
to then restrain someone and get them cuffed.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
And so you can.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
See historically how that night Haanchi grappling method again. Look
at the YouTube channelfice some snippets of it when applied
with two people onto one working together and so on,
would could have been potentially very very effective.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Well yeah, without without doing sort of back history, I'm
an old warrior or an old soldier. I was an
army cadet, but I was never in the army, but
I was. I was a police cadet. I was paid
in that college at the same time through the scheme,
and I remember going out, you know, observing the first arrest.
That was quite I agree with you totally. There were
(41:32):
five officers and one sort of one sort of observing
police uniformed police cadet watching with daw on the ground.
It took five officers there. It was a very violent man,
very large and violent man, and it took five officers.
But they just good by sheer way to got them
to the ground, and the exactly as you described, controlled
(41:54):
the limbs and pain compliance. You know, the person gives
up obviously. I think there was a curious term that
was introduced to me some thirty odd years ago. I
don't think it's used anymore. But if someone's charlied up
quote unquote, which basically refer to somebody on drugs of
(42:16):
some sort, probably amphetamines or something that would make them,
you know, particularly difficult to to apprehend or detain. But
you know, this is stuff that goes on every day
in every country in policing, you know, in police work,
which is I think essentially what we're talking about. So
if we're looking at traditional there was no traditional karate.
(42:39):
There was just the kata. There were no styles, and
as we've already discussed, those styles were in two board divisions,
the sort of naha you know, the gojurdu type and
the weight you do, and the showing room the Shottakan
type of karate with the long, longer stances, different functions,
And I think, I don't know if I'm stealing your
(43:01):
thunder again, Tom, But the Palace hand, we've had that discussion.
The Palace hand seems to be the chouldering kata or
not ruling out than naha kata being used for that.
But I think that the sai a different kind of policing.
I'm not saying that they weren't used in the Palace,
but we don't seem to have much evidence for that.
(43:25):
They seem to have been much more in society, but
we can't be sure because the Chinese origins are somewhat obscured.
But we can be sure that the sai is a
tool or a weapon definitely comes from China. It's not
something that originates in or Can or Japan. And they
are as you know, they are policing tools. So the
(43:48):
modern karate has nothing to do with that, and it
has this uh, I'm going to say obsessive because it
is most of us that practiced. I'm not from the
earliest period of the introduction of karate to the West.
I think that was in the sixties, but suddenly in
the for me, in the very early seventies, but is
(44:12):
when I started. So I hadn't had KARATEI for very
long in the West, that's for sure. But the interest,
the obsession was with the notions of self defense. But
everything was these antique, these ancient catter supposed to solve
the problems of personal defense one on one or one
(44:33):
person against a number, and as we've already made clear,
it's actually the reverse. It's actually a number of arresting
people too. At least, you know, although the night Hanchen
is really you know, is an unfolding of one on one.
Why would you just be doing that if you've got
a companion, which you should have. I think I refer
(44:55):
to it curaintly in England as bobbies on bicycles from
the song too, I do, and it is the case
that you do get in England. You still get the
single constables, but generally speaking you know they're they're in pairs.
And for the reasons already already stated. So the old
the old, There is no old karate. There was only
(45:18):
the kata. Then it was divided into styles based on
the approaches, but the functions had been lost, the applications
had been lost. Kata were accumulated and collected, and in
some styles in a rather haphazard way. It needs to
be understood that in the early stages of karati, and
(45:39):
particularly with the advent of professional teachers, and no disrespect
to professional teachers, I've been run myself kata a premium
at a premium and they were you know, stock shopkeepers
stock and you you know, you can't take for granted that. Now,
if you want to see somebody else's kata, you just
flick get onto YouTube and you can see any style
(46:01):
you could you've heard of. You just go on to
google it, you know, and and it will come. You know,
it's not that long ago, and some of us can remember.
You couldn't do that, you know. We used to travel
miles to go and see somebody's form that goun through
and that's if they would show it to us, and
that usually be some kind of you either had to
be a student or there'd be some fees involved. I
(46:23):
remember being I don't know if this is a dubious
claim to make, but one of the earliest people in
as far as I'm aware, certainly in England, if not
in Europe, to learn I studied the wing to gung
fu style, and I one day I answered an advertisement
from a to learn the third form that the bug
form wow, and I went and took private lessons to
(46:47):
learn that. You know, That's how it was. You know.
There wasn't a book with it in or you couldn't
you know, visit a website or something or watch a
YouTube video. There was no such so, you know, to
go to refer to Tom talking about the monkey fist.
You couldn't see anything like that unless you saw it
personally or you could obtain film footage that the old
(47:09):
fashioned eight millimeters or whatever, and then later videos. Of course,
now people can just look at anything, which really is
to the next bit, the next point, which is that
Internet and modern communications have led to an even greater
proliferation of karate styles as more and more individuals that
(47:33):
find recognizing the flaws and the difficulties in trying to
make karate antique katter, which are generally weapons scatter in
any case without the weapons, can form or fit or
work up for one on one quote self defense or
as Tom put it would work could be applied in
any kind of confident and dueling, you know, back and forth.
(47:56):
So people who are criking, you know, maybe some different
ateral more catter, you know, people could you know, you know,
take ideas from more sources than that were available than
were available certainly to the early founders of kat and
certainly to people my age and with my background and experience,
we certainly couldn't see that stuff. The best I could
(48:18):
do was having a friend that did Puck Mahon seeing
a nine step push form from an early age. But
that was just luck on my or he happened to
be being personally tutored by a former Hong Kong champion,
whose whose restaurant he worked in. But now you know,
and I say, there's a greater proliferation of forms because
(48:40):
there's so much available on the internet. People can just
and you know, so you've got new styles springing up.
I can't say daily because I don't know, but on
a regular basis, you know, weekly, that would be safe globally,
you know, and people will get the kanji, the carroas,
(49:00):
the Chinese characters, you know, or the Japanese characters, and
and try and find the characters for the for the
name of the style that they they they've created. And
I just to defend our own position, gentlemen, not that
needs defending. Kudu, which is our own approach, is not
really a style as such. It's an approach to as
said earlier, and under there's you know, it's the little
(49:24):
diagram that tells you what inside each of the chocolates
that that's really thank you for that that was such
a good That is really the significant difference between modern
karate and and and and the it's its predecessor, which
was basically just just the forms. I'm not saying that this.
(49:45):
I'm not excluding the existence of auha and so the
weight you would be a good example, but it wasn't
called weight. And in fact, you know that that was
named after the person who got it from China and
and took it from China to to to Japan actually
(50:06):
and then ultimately back to Knaw where he came from.
So the name that the school was named after him,
but it wasn't called and it was just a three
cater against sanchin s and San said, and it wasn't
really a star was a framework for using the sai
for policing. But as I say, as more information has
(50:27):
become available, then you know the number of quote styles
has increased exponentially.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
There's the idea, the ideas of the of the approach
as well. Looking at the modern the modern martial arts
in Japan, like judo and kendo, the two main dominant
ones were all were dueling one one to one, one
person versus one person, and karasi followed suit and rightly,
so I mean, why wouldn't have it gone that way
(50:58):
if if the if the forms had arrive with the functions,
there's no way you could have done that. You would
have had to start with something else, which is what
happened really in many ways.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
We're not saying that that it's fun, that it's wrong.
Sorry to I don't want to wear out the chocolate
box analogy, but we're not saying that, you know, we
don't believe that that the orange chocolate this should be
shouldn't be in the box. Do some people want that.
It's just knowing what they are. And so we're not
(51:29):
not criticizing or pulling apart modern karate at all, as
you quite rightly, but that we're not if the early
fansa had known what the what the catter actually did,
you know, it's likely possible that we wouldn't even have
had a modern creat in which case we wouldn't be
even having this conversation. So we're you know, we're not
(51:50):
pulling it apart or you know at all. It was
just I think, yeah, context will be everything.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
There's a really you know, the what's going going on
with the European Martial Arts is fantastic, the kind of
the Historical Martial Arts Collective, and that's the way it's
used where they're researching the European manuals that have survived
from you know, medieval and as all these different fencing
(52:20):
manuals and military strategy manuals, and people are working out
what they did and trying to create something from it
and historic No one's confusing the historical martial arts there,
or the use of all the types of weaponry its
swords and spears and glades and all that kind of
No one's confused about what that is that people understand.
(52:41):
No one go, well, that's not going to work in mma.
It was never There's no confusion that that's what they
were for. You know, there's no one's kind of misinterpreting going,
well that you know that fencing manual from Germany in
the sixteenth century. You know, I don't see. That's where
we are here with these antique forms. That's where they belong.
(53:03):
They belong in that historical martial arts collective. Looking at
what's happened over the last few hundred years and how
technology has changed the way everything's done and all the
rest of you. I'm going to talk about that later.
But presenting this research and presenting the original functions of
these forms and the information and perspectives is to recategorize
(53:27):
these forms in the sense of classical karate and modern
karaiti can belong together as the greater karate. But the
classical bit, the use of weapons, the use of tools,
martial skills which weren't categorized by style. They were categorized
by the job. What's the job to police, to bodyguard?
(53:50):
Whatever you know belongs in that historical martial arts and
what's taken place in karate since then, the very very
skill highly developed skills of full contact and karate combat
and things like that is the modern evolution of it.
And it's not a linear evolution. You know, bits got lost,
(54:13):
so something else happened, and then something else happened. But
we've now gone back and found a bit and so
it's kind of reordering and getting all of that. And
our aim here is to get all of that information
that we have out there for people to take and
run with and do what they want with it.
Speaker 3 (54:29):
I know we're winding down now. I'd just like to
quickly say this that the point made earlier about one
set of police skills will be you know, would be
officers could be riding horses in a city for instance
London in England, or they could be dog handling, or
driving a motorway car up and down or an area car.
(54:54):
There wouldn't be although in police training, and this is
one way of looking at it. You might get to
see all of those things. Ultimately, you won't be doing
all of those things, you know, So there's no point
in having a there's no point in expecting to go
to work and well I've got, you know, basic dog
(55:16):
handling skills, and then I've got oh, I can ride
a horse too, and you know, or I can drive
the area, Carl, I can drive them. I can drive
very fast because I've had the training. You won't do
all of those things, and you know, you might experience
them in your basic tream and get a look at them,
you know, but you're not going to use a bit
from one and a bit from another and a bit
(55:37):
you know, a bit of dog handling in a bit.
No you're not. And I think that that it's no
different to the way it always was, and so that
ties it together that and it ties together very much
with function dictates the form, as we discussed previously, And
we don't want a bit of dog handling with a
bit of horse riding with a bit of fast motorways driving.
(55:58):
You know, they don't all go together. Are like that,
they're very specific skills for very specific purposes. We'll just
throwing one last point.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
I'll keep it very very brief, just that these are
historical martial skills, these different contexts and these different forms.
I think they really enrich karat and I think they're
going to really enrich the history it. Just think it's
got a lot to offer. And it's not as Nathan
(56:27):
said earlier, it's not criticizing what people have done or
what they're doing. It's an attempt to, you know, let's
let karate come back, cut it free from the antique forms.
Let those guys do what they do, what they're amazing at,
and cut it free from MMA. That's what it is.
You know, MMA doesn't need any hatter and it doesn't
(56:49):
belong there, but it does. It does have its place,
and it did have its place, and it was as
functional as anything else, which is at the fore today
just doesn't. But it's not it's not of our time.
It's of another time, and it's not of our cultures,
of another culture. But it doesn't mean that we can't
understand it and enjoy those practices and appreciate those skills
(57:12):
that you know, we have access to them because we
have the manuals and the kata are the primary sources
of karate history, not written records or reports or the books.
It's the forms that are the primary sources. And we're
really really lucky to have them. Yeah, I'll end it there.
Speaker 3 (57:31):
Okay, thank you here here, Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
And that's a wrap on today's episode of Great KARATEI Myths.
Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please
take a moment to like, follow, or subscribe to our channel.
Your support helps us keep the conversation going and the
myths posting. We'd like to hear from our listeners, So
if you have any myths you'd like us to explore,
our stories to share, don't hesitate to reach out, and
(57:59):
if if you're interested in booking a seminar or training
in codo U, get in touch with us through www
dot codiru dot com. Stay inspired and see you on
the next episode.
Speaker 2 (58:16):
Mm hmm
Welcome back to Great Karaatei Myths. Today we're diving deep
into the fascinating transformation of karate from its perceived classical
roots to the dynamic styles practice. Today we'll explore karates
hidden history, from its functional roots to the classical styles
in large later, and ultimately how it's transformed into the
modern sport you know today. So if you're curious about
(00:27):
the true story behind karates evolution, entitle you or yuwagi
and get ready to learn. Welcome gents, let's get straight in.
Tom would you like to kick off this discussion by
defining what we mean by classical and modern karate.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
From a cata perspective, there's no such thing as classical karate.
There's you know what we've talked about already, there's forms
katas which were manuals, so that's not classical karate, but
that became the source material for what later developed into
(01:09):
modern karate. Really, it's really when there's sort of two
just think periods. There's that when kata was central to
it and then when sparring became central. That's one way
of looking at it. And lots of ideas built up
were built up around kata practice that may not necessarily
(01:34):
be true because they didn't have the functions of the forms.
So we can break that down. And so this idea
that you'd learn, you know, three years for one kata, why,
what's what's that about? You know, get you prett Of
course you pointed out that experts would have only typically
known three to five kata in the day, back in
(01:56):
the day, Why is that true? And so there's these
different ideas that are built up around the forms, and
that's sort of that was the sort of sense. These
ideas were central to the practices of the time. So
you went to your teachers, you practice the kata over
and over again, they gave you a nod whether it
was any good, and then you just do it again
(02:16):
and again and again. There's not a lot of descriptions
in the from the early pioneers of being taught bunki
applications of forms, or you know, Funakoshi's own recollections of
learning techi. He doesn't describe that he in any way
spent any time grappling with a tosu or being taught.
(02:37):
Why the fist shape, which we know and talked about
many times, why it was that it was simply lots
and lots of repetition, and that was how you mastered karate. Then,
as karate spreads into Japan at the influence of other
martial arts and the drive to expand karate and establish it,
sparrings introduced, and kata eventually starts to take a bit
(03:00):
of a back seat, and it's there in the and
it takes on a new life later on in the
creative interpretation. But sparring is what drives and moves it
all forward, really and what spreads it to become a
global phenomenon. Yeah, if you want to jump in there, one.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Of the drivers of the creation of modern karate. Whilst
the fairly conscious attempt to make to make karati conform
two existing ideas of kendo, which was the the modern
(03:40):
form of Japanese swordsmanship in which practice was conducted with
split bamboo imitation swords referred to as shinai, and of
course kendo was primarily a sport with an emphasis on competition.
The founders of karate decided to take early founders of
(04:00):
styles probably should say decided to take some of them
to take karat in that direction. Although curiously, the two
of the biggest names if you liked influences that's a
better word on karati. Notably Phenicosti chen founder of the
Shuttaken style, and of course Mayagi Chojan, founder of the
(04:20):
Gojuru style, weren't directly. In fact, Phenoicosti disliked a competitive
karate and it didn't even care much for sparring or
free free sparring rather and and talk instead fixed sparring.
Mayagi Chojan himself the founder of gojur you know, there's
(04:42):
not a lot of evidence to suggest that he was
in any way an enthusiastic of sports karate or even
particularly been on free sparring. That all came later. In fact,
you know, the whole the whole idea of karate is
relatively recent. You know, we're looking at something that didn't
really begin its formation or serious for leaving aside the
(05:06):
antiquity of the of the of some of the kata,
we're looking at something well, it was it was underway
certainly in the nineteen twenties, but it really didn't get
going until seriously until post World War two. So the
to keep to the point, most karate could be considered
(05:27):
as as modern as a practice, as a club activity.
Most of it is indeed pretty or more accurately, I
sal I could say post modern, but it's it's has this.
I think Robert W. Smith, the American author on Largely
Chinese Masters, described something along similarized when referring to he
(05:52):
was actually talking about a Chinese style baguar, but he
referred to, you know, having the pleasant flavor of antiquity,
which is really what how karati seems to present. But
pretty much it's it's modern. What is not modern? We
(06:12):
can look at what we've referred to as previously as
antique kata, and that would be kata like the Sanchuan
that we've discussed considerably already, and perhaps the Ni Hanchen
looked to be very early. They look to be late
Ming early Qing dynasty, so give some context. There's certainly
(06:35):
seventeenth century, appear to be seventeenth century. But they arrived
from China rather they they yeah, they they they came
up through an hour and as Tom has already pointed out,
they didn't come with any applications, often termed bunki. So
(06:58):
the films, it was assumed that, you know, repeated practice
of the forms would confer mastery with no attention to
what the forms actually did. Now, that's not my opinion
that the lack of or the paucity of applications is
often described as it was. The Clatter was secret so
(07:18):
that there were no written records. All that the early
Creti masters were illiterate, illiterate peasants, Well, that's not accurate
at all, funicost sense. The was was himself a Confucian
scholar and a schoolmaster. And you know, yes, undoubtedly there
were uneducated practitioners, but a lot of the practitioners actually
(07:42):
on record were indeed well educated and well educated. I
could give several examples, but I think the points already
made so that the Catter themselves are the original. It's
difficult where it goes now to classify the kata, but
(08:02):
the antique as we've turned them, antique kata like the
Sanchin and the night Hanchin, you know, as I've already said,
you know from the seventeenth century. And yet as Tom's
pointed out, they were they weren't organized into into ruja
styles or family schools. They were one did the kata
they weren't. There weren't styles, and in fact, Punkosi Chichen
(08:25):
did not like the idea of naming. He didn't name
his school shot a can that was done by his students,
in the same way that Maggi Chodn did not designate
his school as go juru. In fact, that came about
when he'd sent Juhatsukiyoda to as a representative to mainland
Japan for a demonstration. He was yeah, he he he
(08:51):
gave a demonstration and at that time, actually historically why
we well, our recess indicates he may well have only
known three kata that would be sanchin sash and I
believe ten show as they call it. But he gave
a demonstration nonetheless, and he was asked to just the
name of his school, and and he didn't actually have one,
(09:12):
so he concocted one. He referred to what he was
demonstrated demonstrating as hank Hank kill ru half hard and
half soft. When he went back to Wa Cana and
reported back to Maggi Jojan, then Magie consulted the uh Well,
(09:33):
a well known manual the Bubishi and and and chose
to determine to describe his school as a go ju,
which is half hard, half soft, hard soft, which is
basically the same as Hank kill Rue, but he'd actually
he designated it as goes you do so even you know,
(09:55):
the styles didn't get their names until late late uh
and from that point on they became styles, recognizable styles,
but they never were. I think I've got to take
I'm not wearing a hat, but metaphorically take my hat
off to a conversation, a long conversation I had with Tom,
(10:15):
or one of many splendid conversations over the last few years.
But when Tom, I'm sorry, I don't want to steal
your thunder Tom. Tom was speaking about the O Canawan Palace,
the connection that it has with some of the quotes masters,
and that there seems to be a connection with the
Royal Shudi, which is one of the main cities or
(10:36):
the capital city indeed O Canawa. And and Tom was
postulating that we were discussing the idea that which had
been reflected actually in the work of Mark Bishop of
the term palace hand and some karati had been obliquely
referred to as palace hand. And looking at this and
(11:01):
again take off my metaphoric hat to Tom on the well,
I'll leave it to Tom to discuss if if it's
okay about the bow. I don't want to steal your thunder.
But there's a great indicator of of what these kata.
You know. It's not that you know, there were many
(11:21):
many cata extents, and some of them are are old
at date from the times that I've already mentioned, but
a lot of them were associated not then, not not
the Sanchinsen and the san Siliu, but the other group
of kata from the so called Suri school rather than
Naha school, which are associated associated with the Royal Shuri
(11:43):
Palace and the guards. And we can see why. And
it's not that they would learn a whole significant number
of these kata. You know, as a collector, you know
you have to learn you know, nine, nine, fifteen or
more kata. A modern day shota can has over twenty seven.
Go Juru has twelve. Typically, it's not that the guards
(12:08):
would have to learn them all. I think it depended
on their station, because different kata were for you using
different tools. Of Tom's indicated. Some are for the zai,
which is actually particularly the Nahar tradition, but some are
for the ton for and some Tom's excellent work on
disarming a bow staff with the long six foot plus
(12:29):
staff or retaining possession of one when it's trying to
be removed from you. It seems to be reflected in
some of these kata. So it's not that somebody would
learn okay, you now have to learn all you know,
all of these depends on your job. And we can
look at this in modern policing, in which you might
(12:51):
you know, in London, in England, you would see, you know,
there are mounted police who ride horses, there are police
who had who are dog handlers who handle dogs. There
are regional squad cars, there are traffic police. There are
many sort of different divisions that require different skill sets.
Why should it be any different for you know, for
(13:14):
you know, the the the Theoan Palace. Why should it
be all for policing in general? Well, originally in China
and later in Okinawa, just to round that up, by
the time it gets to Japan, as kadetic, all of
that is out of the picture and what's inherited. Ultimately
(13:36):
there are a set of physical movements that look to
all intents and purposes like some exotic unarmed combat. And
you know, a question I asked that will be thirty
five years ago now was how come we don't find
such an approach in other countries. Don't find it in
(13:56):
Europe particularly or on the African continent, we don't find
that that approach to unarmed fighting. And it's quite interesting
that pretty much every culture in society has wrestling, but
the idea of boxing. It's just assumed that there's always
the potential for a combative ballistic punch kick fighting art
(14:20):
that can be contained in forms or certainly was in
in in an hour, if not in China. That that's
peculiar to Chinese thinking into Oriental thinking. It's steeped in mystery.
And you know, but actually all over the world there's
there's wrestling, but not not not particularly these percussive ballistic arts.
(14:44):
And yet you know what people have done. Enthusiasts and
early scholars of modern cutting have tried to say, well, yes,
there always has been some form of ballistic pancation. I
don't know if I pronounce it very well. I've only
ever really reddit although in some some sort of Greco
(15:05):
Roman or Greek form of boxing with spiked gloves. You know,
common sense dictates that you know, anyone, if ever they
did practice such a thing, other than perhaps gladiators, it
wouldn't last long you couldn't how would you, you know,
have survived. The training evidence is scant. I'm not saying
there is none, I'm saying it's scant. So the actual
(15:26):
wrestling is endemic. You know, every culture, or most cultures.
I'm sure someone can find a culture that doesn't have wrestling.
Boxing is not. This is often confused karate and boxing,
free sparring, jumbled up. And actually, you know, if you
really look at boxing, and we're not doing boxing history
(15:46):
at this point, but we're looking at the Marcus of
Queensbury type of boxing with the rules and the stances
and the ring and the rounds, which didn't exist before.
That itself is fairly recent and as you know, arose
with the markets of Greensburry and many some of the
postures were certainly pre fighting postures were adopted by notable
(16:08):
karate teachers.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
So if the usefulness of kata can be successfully divorced
from the dynamic modern sport of karate, why do we
think it was put together in the first place.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So, just going back to talking about the palace hand
and bodyguarding or palace guards, it's really another one of
those kind of contexts or territories where specific martial skills
were formalized into forms, and it can offer perhaps one
(16:43):
of a few reasons why kata were put together in
the first place. These physical manuals, it's very very easy
to then if you've got a method of how a
palace should be guarded, or training bodyguards or palace guards
or police or whatever, you can then send someone who's
an expert in those forms out to a satellite province
(17:07):
or an outpost or something, and they can then train
people in the form very very quickly. It doesn't require
the ability to read, you know, it's not easy to
read Chinese, you know, it's not everyone would have been
educated to the level to be able to read and
interpret a written manual at that time. But a physical form,
(17:31):
a physical manual is something that's quite quickly can be
quite quickly learned. And so it's very interesting that forms
like kusan ku passai and gorjushiho, amongst others, found their
way into people working in the Okinawan Royal Court. And
(17:53):
this has been well this has been written about a
lot and is well recorded elsewhere that the Okinawan Royal
Court was a kind of a satellite of the of China,
and they paid tribute to the Chinese emperors and so on,
and it's in the forms that they have and practiced there,
(18:16):
like kusen Ku were in fact manuals for palace guards
and their tools and the skills they needed to bodyguard
and protect the palace. And so they've inherited those forms,
which is really quite it's either really lucky or it's
not coincidence. It's hard to say really because those forms
(18:40):
don't exist in China anymore. But what you've got are
forms that are well suited to the context of protecting
the king, protecting the palace, and working with the layout
of the palace as well, which you see in some
of the techniques of the weaponry that the environment is
well considered as well. So that's another element in the
(19:07):
antique forms, the forms inherited from China is that in
the original function, the environment would have been given a
consideration as well. So you know, if you're fighting on
a battlefield, you might be in a wide open space,
it's not jungle warfare. But if you're looking after a
palace or you're policing in the streets, you might be
in quite an enclosed environment and need to be able
(19:28):
to operate the tools and the skills within quite a
small space or not, you know, So that's another area
that's useful when exploring these original functions. Again, not just
a street fight where space is unlimited. The ground's lovely
and even you're not going to slip over, you know,
(19:50):
a concrete flat concrete is usually what's assumed. You know,
if you start factoring in a staircase, for example, like
you would in a palace, or a narrow passageway or
you know, uneven ground, flippery ground, all that kind of stuff,
it changes the way that you would move. And so
the footwork and the stances and the postures consider the
(20:15):
are fun considerations of what environment you're going to be
operating in as well. So there's that palace hand represents
another context alongside perhaps something like civil policing, which is
what the SI would have been used for. And the
value in having a physical manual means is it's easily
(20:38):
transported outwards and other people can be trained without requiring
high levels of literacy or needing to interpret a from
a book. You can be shown the form how to train,
how to develop your skills, and left to get on.
That kind of also brings up what we then talked
(20:59):
about earlier in is three years one catter necessary and
the answer is no, that's something that's been added on
later on. With something like the way Chi sanchin. In
the use of the si you should be pretty competent
in about six weeks and pretty good after around six
months ready to take on the the the kind of
(21:22):
extension and some techniques for in the Seysan and or
the Sanseio.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
And you wouldn't need.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
A great deal because it's very very specific what the
function is. So somebody can be trained up in a
few months and they can be out using and applying
the skills. If you had to train with the sire
for three years just in the sanchin before you're even
good enough to step up into the Safe said, it's
(21:52):
not a practical means to train someone. You need to
be good quickly. You find within the sand and these
other forms the means to really cut through to what's
important quite quickly and get that quite quickly. Once your
grips are good, once your dexterity is good, then you
(22:13):
can start working on some of these techniques in the
in the Seysan and going out and getting that all
important experience in applying them. And just to finish off
on that point about contexts. One, you know, we've talked
about civil policing and perhaps guarding a palace or bodyguarding.
(22:35):
Another context that can be considered is theatrical as well.
So some form based martial arts have clearly inherited forms
or routines perhaps for the stage that are clearly not
combatively effective, armed or unarmed, and use the body in
(22:57):
a way that just wouldn't be practical for palace guarding.
And they also wouldn't be very good in a street
fight or an MMA fight or anything like that. So examples,
you know, something like monkey boxing, something like that, Paul
Zinc comes to mind. The American martial arts instructor used
(23:20):
to do these incredible forms monkey staff and very very
gymnastic and acrobatic, and they're kind of what's survived from opera,
Chinese opera. And so that's another context to consider when
research in these forms. So it's not just assume, well,
(23:42):
we've never just assumed that these were going to be
practical combative skills with some kind of military or civil context.
It could be theater, but what you don't ever find
is that it's street fighting.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Beautifully made point, well, a number of points that were
deeply interconnected. I think that the it's good to introduce
I said in the past, and we've agreed that there
you know, there was the idea of self defense. There
was there was the aesthetics the art, an idea of
having an art of karate or a doe which will
(24:20):
discuss not not necessarily on another occasion, but also the
idea of self defense when I was young. So let
me think now, well, this is not a boast. It
is just a quick reflection. I've got fifty years experience
good grief. It's flown by, and I've I've loved karate
(24:44):
mine as long as I can remember. But I I
can remember being told, and I wrote about this in
a number of publications and books. How long does it
take to master the art of karate? Oh? Typically something
I was told It takes years. It takes years, twenty years.
(25:07):
And I've written and I've said, imagine if you went
to decided to take up tennis, and so you go
to a tennis club and you speak with the coach
and you say, well, well to play tennis, Howng's it
going to take me to get you know? To become
twenty years you know, really would people accept that, No,
(25:27):
it does it take twenty years. That's not to decry
the experienced professional you can take. You know, I don't
know Tiger Woods springs to mind. With golf. No one
can say he's still good.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
So someone can be doing pursuing something, you know, for
twenty plus years and still have a degree of skill
and competency. But it doesn't mean that it takes twenty years,
nor should it take twenty years to And I just
refer to something Tom said, and we've agreed on this
in the past. You know, if you look at any
(26:00):
any basic training in services, in policing, and you know,
particularly I'm not in agreement with conscription, by the way,
but in conscription six weeks you get your six you know,
you get your six weeks training and that's it, you know,
and then you do you do the rest on the job.
You know. You couldn't imagine saying, well, we're going to
(26:20):
train police officers, but it will take you know, We've
got to plan ahead here because they're not going to
be any good for twenty years, you know, or even
three years. And I agree with Tom's you know, view
that you know six weeks and you know, then six
months you know and and you know it's only not only,
(26:41):
but karate is typical of something that you know, we're
you know, I've been guilty of this or talk about
rather than put this burden on others, you know, in
the past, not saying yeah, this takes this, this will
take years talking to students and instructing students. When I,
(27:05):
as an instructor in those early days of instructing that
would be in the early eighties, didn't know what the
forms did myself. I know only what I'd been told
and what I'd try to make up myself. This is
a position that lots of coaches and teachers, martial art
teachers were in, have always been in. In fact, the
(27:28):
reason it takes twenty years or longer and some people
never get an understanding because if you don't no disrespect
to any individuals. That's why I'm not using names except
my own, except me referring to myself. If you don't
know what the forms are for, then you know you're
going to spend years wandering around these forms. I think
it was Maggie Chojan that said, well, I think I
(27:50):
don't think I know it was recorded by Mario Highana
essentsely Go, a very senior gojuru, a teacher of suitable prominence,
who was quoting Baggy Trojan Sense, the founder of go
Judu Karati, who said, ah, you know, he was feeling
disconsolate and wrote wrote it. He said, here I am,
(28:12):
after all these years, still wandering around in the dark,
and that to me, whilst it's not explicit, it's a
tacit statement that he didn't really still didn't really know
what the function of a kata were, which I think
led him to be very creative in the way that
he was. That's obviously another subject that we'll get into.
(28:34):
But on topic, the difference between the classical or the
antique of the old karat in the modern karate, just
to summarize before handing back over the is that it
the back in the day, as Tom put it earlier,
there was just the CTUs and as as Nagaminization wrote
(28:54):
and others have reflected on a great chadron route or
should teacher learned kata from one sense, one didn't expect
to learn self defense or fighting from one's sensing, and
that actually was the view generally taken there. So the
old way of training was kata. That was it, kata
(29:16):
that then developed into having let's have a set of basics,
so repetitive marching up and down with punching and blocking
and kicking and so on instantly kicking. They don't really
occur in the antique gattering insignificant way, certainly not in
the way that they're used today. But there was only
the kata. What then happened is through transition actually acquired
(29:37):
a set of basics which were particularly suitable for teaching children.
And then of course the sparring, and as I've commented before,
that produced three types of training which not really direct
appeared to be related, but they're not. And the modern
karate contains all of those elements, whereas the traditional karate
(29:57):
consisted just pretty much primarily of of practicing cata. Not
to say there weren't attempts, and there certainly photographic evidence
to show early founders applying what appeared to be categories,
but nothing nothing that was systematic or logical, progressive, or
(30:19):
actually particularly functional. Just before handing over. One of the
biggest problems that faced those early teachers is the same
problem that faces people today who are trying to use
traditional kato in a freestyle situation is you can't because
(30:40):
you don't well, you don't know what the opponent's doing,
where their punctual kick is going, which height its at.
So the general response is to get yourself out of
the way and slap away whatever comes reflexively, and all
those magnificent cata and all those intricate, magnificent movements becoming
(31:00):
possible to apply in a freestyle situation because the context
is completely wrong.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I think that highlights a point as well that what
we're talking about in terms of the original functions isn't
weapons used in a dueling context about a twoing and throwing.
It's not it's a pair of sigh, sparring a bow
or jeweling a bow or anything like that. What's a
(31:30):
common thread that exists in the antique forms is that
they're really about going first preemption. And there's not the
reason that sparring didn't evolve with these old forms and
things like that when they were put together is because
you can't. You can't spa with them. It's not a
(31:50):
reciprocal it's not an exchange, it's not a match, it's
not a jewel. But the idea of a jewel has
become very, very ingrained in the kind of perception of
karate that you square off against everything from start to
finishes about one on one. It's very and that's that
(32:14):
is a modern development, and that's that's an outside idea
that didn't exist in the original functions of the forms.
So using that Sanchin as an example again, and that
the methodology of using a sign of the sie, a
pair ofsie, it's not as you would see in modern kabudo,
where they've taken that idea of dueling and put it
(32:36):
back into a weapons exchanges where someone with a bow
or a bock end squares off against someone with some
sigh and there's a block and accounter and an exchange.
It's not that at all. The person with the side
will be intending to go first to restrain, pin, trap, press,
and overwhelm. And that's what you see in these forms.
(32:58):
The techniques are not lingering on a gap. It's closing
the space down as quickly as possible to apply the
tool with the intention of going first overwhelming them, being
in charge of the situation. I know that's not always
going to be successful or the case, but that's the
(33:20):
general intention, and so sparring methods don't really bring anything
of value to these older martial skills that we see
in the palace hand or the civil methods of for example,
using the SI or restraining and things like that. And
that's a clear difference between the classical classical methods and
(33:43):
modern karate and approaching catter. We can't approach antique forms
from the mindset of a duel of sparring or a scenario,
because there aren't. It's not scenarios, they're kind of methods
and maps of how to navigate the territory and overwhelm
within that territory. As soon as someone drew from sigh, say,
(34:06):
for example, you've got a pair of side and someone's
in front of you with a knife. If you haven't
followed the method that's been taught or the education you
received in your forms, and you go right, well, we're
going to duel this out. It's anyone's game, then you're
right back in that jeweling territory. And that's exactly where
(34:27):
you want to what you would want to avoid in
trying to use these skills efficiently, and so sometimes it's
hard to kind of wrap your head around the mindset,
because I know from my own experience coming from Waderoo,
it's very much dueling that mindset that the set the
(34:47):
starting distance, the set distance, the bunci takes place. Quite formally,
this is what it does at this that's so far removed.
That is a modern imprint by based on these antique forms.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
One of the yeah, one of the a big, a
key significator for this. A person who really influenced this,
although not himself agreeing with Freespiring, the founder of shotoken,
Phunicosi sens He used a term karati is senti nashi
(35:23):
that translates, I mean it's normally said there's no first attack,
but senti nashi, there's no first hand, there is no
in other words, you don't go attack first, which is
precisely the opposite of what's actually required. And I'm not
contradicting Punicosi Sensei because you'll discover, you know later in
with us that the deep respect we have for him
(35:45):
and his creation of what we perceive as are the
art of karatei do or the way of karate, rather
than has loosely been interpreted in the past karati jutsu
or the technique which is you know, I don't find
that particularly useful, but you know it can work. There
is no first strike basically postulates or posits that the
(36:09):
karati is therefore primarily defensive. So there should always be
ok or crudely translated as a block otherwise terms as
a way of receiving a force or an attack. That
should that should be first uh and then you know
the counter and and it's been said quite correctly that
all of the fact not correctly, that all of the
cat are structured that way. Well as we've been referencing
(36:33):
all along that or Tom's just putting really into context.
You need to go first. It's it's proactive and preemptive.
It's not reactive and defensive. And that's that's that's it,
that's its edge, and that will be true. Let's just
hop over from night Hanchen to the other to another
key kata from the sister or brother style of karati
(36:54):
suley your cholin away from the naha and look at
the night hanchin. Guess what same principle that the opera
the operator needs to go first to get the adversary
under control immediately. And it's particularly in a very specific way.
It's it's control and then control a total control of
(37:15):
those limbs before they can do any harm. It's you know,
it's it's a preventative measure. The idea, not the idea
that the reality that's it is that you cannot use
the techniques from the CATA once an opponent or adversary
is flailing away at you. You know you can't then
suddenly go into CATA mode. And you know, if this
(37:37):
is coming all over the place from every angle and
somehow you're supposed to miraculously respond, that's that's not that's
not at all how it was structured. And so Tom's
quite right. It's preemptive. The operative goes first.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
It's just going to add something to that as well.
If people want to have a quick look at a
couple of the segments of the Night Hanschen grappling, they
can see that on the YouTube channel as well. You've
got a couple of clips of some of the grappling
catalog of Night Hanschin. The point you may where if
they if someone ends up flailing or fighting, you're really
going for it, it's not going to work. By the
(38:11):
time you've reached that point, that skill set isn't going
to is no longer that valid. The gobvious question is
were how would that have been dealt with? And it
it's dealt with by that, you wouldn't have been on
your own. So in a civil policing, a civil policing
or body guarding, you're not the only palace guard or
(38:31):
you're not the only civil police officer or whatever. You're
working in teams, and that is also something that is
in my opinion, considered in the context the territories for
these different Marshall skill sets. So in karate, you know,
there's modern karate. The modern perspective is how do you
(38:52):
take on multiple opponents? The classical perspective in the antique
forms is how do we work together to take down
one and so one? The exact reverse again, when you
have two people that are trained in the same method
the same methodology. If you've got two people armed with
a pair of SiGe, I mean, your chance of success,
(39:16):
especially if you're both going first, is going to be huge.
And if where one person may be failing, the other
person is then stepping in and attempting to overwhelm from
the others. You know, So it's obvious and it's all
the problems that modern karate has in dealing with multiple
opponents are the very reasons why those antique forms were
(39:39):
so successful, Because you would be working in a partnership
or a team. You'd be a team of bodyguards, you'd
be a team of police officer. That's an important fact.
And one of the criticisms that we've had before about
the night Handchin is people look at the grappling that
the sequence, the catalog and they say, well, that would
never work well one on one, you know, when you're
(40:02):
looking at that castle. Yeah, you could argue that, but
if you've got two people grabbing someone's limbs to restrain
and over, that kind of really overwhelming, both knowing how
each other's operating, like police officers do now, if one
person tries to arrest a person, it's very very difficult.
(40:23):
But if you've got two or three, I know, it's
still difficult. Your chances of getting that person restrained and cuffed,
you know, are far far better. And you still see
wristlocks and pain compliance and restraining via the arms and
hands used today. Maneuvers are still there, teams working together
(40:48):
to then restrain someone and get them cuffed.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
And so you can.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
See historically how that night Haanchi grappling method again. Look
at the YouTube channelfice some snippets of it when applied
with two people onto one working together and so on,
would could have been potentially very very effective.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Well yeah, without without doing sort of back history, I'm
an old warrior or an old soldier. I was an
army cadet, but I was never in the army, but
I was. I was a police cadet. I was paid
in that college at the same time through the scheme,
and I remember going out, you know, observing the first arrest.
That was quite I agree with you totally. There were
(41:32):
five officers and one sort of one sort of observing
police uniformed police cadet watching with daw on the ground.
It took five officers there. It was a very violent man,
very large and violent man, and it took five officers.
But they just good by sheer way to got them
to the ground, and the exactly as you described, controlled
(41:54):
the limbs and pain compliance. You know, the person gives
up obviously. I think there was a curious term that
was introduced to me some thirty odd years ago. I
don't think it's used anymore. But if someone's charlied up
quote unquote, which basically refer to somebody on drugs of
(42:16):
some sort, probably amphetamines or something that would make them,
you know, particularly difficult to to apprehend or detain. But
you know, this is stuff that goes on every day
in every country in policing, you know, in police work,
which is I think essentially what we're talking about. So
if we're looking at traditional there was no traditional karate.
(42:39):
There was just the kata. There were no styles, and
as we've already discussed, those styles were in two board divisions,
the sort of naha you know, the gojurdu type and
the weight you do, and the showing room the Shottakan
type of karate with the long, longer stances, different functions,
And I think, I don't know if I'm stealing your
(43:01):
thunder again, Tom, But the Palace hand, we've had that discussion.
The Palace hand seems to be the chouldering kata or
not ruling out than naha kata being used for that.
But I think that the sai a different kind of policing.
I'm not saying that they weren't used in the Palace,
but we don't seem to have much evidence for that.
(43:25):
They seem to have been much more in society, but
we can't be sure because the Chinese origins are somewhat obscured.
But we can be sure that the sai is a
tool or a weapon definitely comes from China. It's not
something that originates in or Can or Japan. And they
are as you know, they are policing tools. So the
(43:48):
modern karate has nothing to do with that, and it
has this uh, I'm going to say obsessive because it
is most of us that practiced. I'm not from the
earliest period of the introduction of karate to the West.
I think that was in the sixties, but suddenly in
the for me, in the very early seventies, but is
(44:12):
when I started. So I hadn't had KARATEI for very
long in the West, that's for sure. But the interest,
the obsession was with the notions of self defense. But
everything was these antique, these ancient catter supposed to solve
the problems of personal defense one on one or one
(44:33):
person against a number, and as we've already made clear,
it's actually the reverse. It's actually a number of arresting
people too. At least, you know, although the night Hanchen
is really you know, is an unfolding of one on one.
Why would you just be doing that if you've got
a companion, which you should have. I think I refer
(44:55):
to it curaintly in England as bobbies on bicycles from
the song too, I do, and it is the case
that you do get in England. You still get the
single constables, but generally speaking you know they're they're in pairs.
And for the reasons already already stated. So the old
the old, There is no old karate. There was only
(45:18):
the kata. Then it was divided into styles based on
the approaches, but the functions had been lost, the applications
had been lost. Kata were accumulated and collected, and in
some styles in a rather haphazard way. It needs to
be understood that in the early stages of karati, and
(45:39):
particularly with the advent of professional teachers, and no disrespect
to professional teachers, I've been run myself kata a premium
at a premium and they were you know, stock shopkeepers
stock and you you know, you can't take for granted that. Now,
if you want to see somebody else's kata, you just
flick get onto YouTube and you can see any style
(46:01):
you could you've heard of. You just go on to
google it, you know, and and it will come. You know,
it's not that long ago, and some of us can remember.
You couldn't do that, you know. We used to travel
miles to go and see somebody's form that goun through
and that's if they would show it to us, and
that usually be some kind of you either had to
be a student or there'd be some fees involved. I
(46:23):
remember being I don't know if this is a dubious
claim to make, but one of the earliest people in
as far as I'm aware, certainly in England, if not
in Europe, to learn I studied the wing to gung
fu style, and I one day I answered an advertisement
from a to learn the third form that the bug
form wow, and I went and took private lessons to
(46:47):
learn that. You know, That's how it was. You know.
There wasn't a book with it in or you couldn't
you know, visit a website or something or watch a
YouTube video. There was no such so, you know, to
go to refer to Tom talking about the monkey fist.
You couldn't see anything like that unless you saw it
personally or you could obtain film footage that the old
(47:09):
fashioned eight millimeters or whatever, and then later videos. Of course,
now people can just look at anything, which really is
to the next bit, the next point, which is that
Internet and modern communications have led to an even greater
proliferation of karate styles as more and more individuals that
(47:33):
find recognizing the flaws and the difficulties in trying to
make karate antique katter, which are generally weapons scatter in
any case without the weapons, can form or fit or
work up for one on one quote self defense or
as Tom put it would work could be applied in
any kind of confident and dueling, you know, back and forth.
(47:56):
So people who are criking, you know, maybe some different
ateral more catter, you know, people could you know, you know,
take ideas from more sources than that were available than
were available certainly to the early founders of kat and
certainly to people my age and with my background and experience,
we certainly couldn't see that stuff. The best I could
(48:18):
do was having a friend that did Puck Mahon seeing
a nine step push form from an early age. But
that was just luck on my or he happened to
be being personally tutored by a former Hong Kong champion,
whose whose restaurant he worked in. But now you know,
and I say, there's a greater proliferation of forms because
(48:40):
there's so much available on the internet. People can just
and you know, so you've got new styles springing up.
I can't say daily because I don't know, but on
a regular basis, you know, weekly, that would be safe globally,
you know, and people will get the kanji, the carroas,
(49:00):
the Chinese characters, you know, or the Japanese characters, and
and try and find the characters for the for the
name of the style that they they they've created. And
I just to defend our own position, gentlemen, not that
needs defending. Kudu, which is our own approach, is not
really a style as such. It's an approach to as
said earlier, and under there's you know, it's the little
(49:24):
diagram that tells you what inside each of the chocolates
that that's really thank you for that that was such
a good That is really the significant difference between modern
karate and and and and the it's its predecessor, which
was basically just just the forms. I'm not saying that this.
(49:45):
I'm not excluding the existence of auha and so the
weight you would be a good example, but it wasn't
called weight. And in fact, you know that that was
named after the person who got it from China and
and took it from China to to to Japan actually
(50:06):
and then ultimately back to Knaw where he came from.
So the name that the school was named after him,
but it wasn't called and it was just a three
cater against sanchin s and San said, and it wasn't
really a star was a framework for using the sai
for policing. But as I say, as more information has
(50:27):
become available, then you know the number of quote styles
has increased exponentially.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
There's the idea, the ideas of the of the approach
as well. Looking at the modern the modern martial arts
in Japan, like judo and kendo, the two main dominant
ones were all were dueling one one to one, one
person versus one person, and karasi followed suit and rightly,
so I mean, why wouldn't have it gone that way
(50:58):
if if the if the forms had arrive with the functions,
there's no way you could have done that. You would
have had to start with something else, which is what
happened really in many ways.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
We're not saying that that it's fun, that it's wrong.
Sorry to I don't want to wear out the chocolate
box analogy, but we're not saying that, you know, we
don't believe that that the orange chocolate this should be
shouldn't be in the box. Do some people want that.
It's just knowing what they are. And so we're not
(51:29):
not criticizing or pulling apart modern karate at all, as
you quite rightly, but that we're not if the early
fansa had known what the what the catter actually did,
you know, it's likely possible that we wouldn't even have
had a modern creat in which case we wouldn't be
even having this conversation. So we're you know, we're not
(51:50):
pulling it apart or you know at all. It was
just I think, yeah, context will be everything.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
There's a really you know, the what's going going on
with the European Martial Arts is fantastic, the kind of
the Historical Martial Arts Collective, and that's the way it's
used where they're researching the European manuals that have survived
from you know, medieval and as all these different fencing
(52:20):
manuals and military strategy manuals, and people are working out
what they did and trying to create something from it
and historic No one's confusing the historical martial arts there,
or the use of all the types of weaponry its
swords and spears and glades and all that kind of
No one's confused about what that is that people understand.
(52:41):
No one go, well, that's not going to work in mma.
It was never There's no confusion that that's what they
were for. You know, there's no one's kind of misinterpreting going,
well that you know that fencing manual from Germany in
the sixteenth century. You know, I don't see. That's where
we are here with these antique forms. That's where they belong.
(53:03):
They belong in that historical martial arts collective. Looking at
what's happened over the last few hundred years and how
technology has changed the way everything's done and all the
rest of you. I'm going to talk about that later.
But presenting this research and presenting the original functions of
these forms and the information and perspectives is to recategorize
(53:27):
these forms in the sense of classical karate and modern
karaiti can belong together as the greater karate. But the
classical bit, the use of weapons, the use of tools,
martial skills which weren't categorized by style. They were categorized
by the job. What's the job to police, to bodyguard?
(53:50):
Whatever you know belongs in that historical martial arts and
what's taken place in karate since then, the very very
skill highly developed skills of full contact and karate combat
and things like that is the modern evolution of it.
And it's not a linear evolution. You know, bits got lost,
(54:13):
so something else happened, and then something else happened. But
we've now gone back and found a bit and so
it's kind of reordering and getting all of that. And
our aim here is to get all of that information
that we have out there for people to take and
run with and do what they want with it.
Speaker 3 (54:29):
I know we're winding down now. I'd just like to
quickly say this that the point made earlier about one
set of police skills will be you know, would be
officers could be riding horses in a city for instance
London in England, or they could be dog handling, or
driving a motorway car up and down or an area car.
(54:54):
There wouldn't be although in police training, and this is
one way of looking at it. You might get to
see all of those things. Ultimately, you won't be doing
all of those things, you know, So there's no point
in having a there's no point in expecting to go
to work and well I've got, you know, basic dog
(55:16):
handling skills, and then I've got oh, I can ride
a horse too, and you know, or I can drive
the area, Carl, I can drive them. I can drive
very fast because I've had the training. You won't do
all of those things, and you know, you might experience
them in your basic tream and get a look at them,
you know, but you're not going to use a bit
from one and a bit from another and a bit
(55:37):
you know, a bit of dog handling in a bit.
No you're not. And I think that that it's no
different to the way it always was, and so that
ties it together that and it ties together very much
with function dictates the form, as we discussed previously, And
we don't want a bit of dog handling with a
bit of horse riding with a bit of fast motorways driving.
(55:58):
You know, they don't all go together. Are like that,
they're very specific skills for very specific purposes. We'll just
throwing one last point.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
I'll keep it very very brief, just that these are
historical martial skills, these different contexts and these different forms.
I think they really enrich karat and I think they're
going to really enrich the history it. Just think it's
got a lot to offer. And it's not as Nathan
(56:27):
said earlier, it's not criticizing what people have done or
what they're doing. It's an attempt to, you know, let's
let karate come back, cut it free from the antique forms.
Let those guys do what they do, what they're amazing at,
and cut it free from MMA. That's what it is.
You know, MMA doesn't need any hatter and it doesn't
(56:49):
belong there, but it does. It does have its place,
and it did have its place, and it was as
functional as anything else, which is at the fore today
just doesn't. But it's not it's not of our time.
It's of another time, and it's not of our cultures,
of another culture. But it doesn't mean that we can't
understand it and enjoy those practices and appreciate those skills
(57:12):
that you know, we have access to them because we
have the manuals and the kata are the primary sources
of karate history, not written records or reports or the books.
It's the forms that are the primary sources. And we're
really really lucky to have them. Yeah, I'll end it there.
Speaker 3 (57:31):
Okay, thank you here here, Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
And that's a wrap on today's episode of Great KARATEI Myths.
Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please
take a moment to like, follow, or subscribe to our channel.
Your support helps us keep the conversation going and the
myths posting. We'd like to hear from our listeners, So
if you have any myths you'd like us to explore,
our stories to share, don't hesitate to reach out, and
(57:59):
if if you're interested in booking a seminar or training
in codo U, get in touch with us through www
dot codiru dot com. Stay inspired and see you on
the next episode.
Speaker 2 (58:16):
Mm hmm
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.