July 23, 2025 • 47 mins
In this revealing episode of 'Great Karate Myths: Debunking the Legends' 🥋, we tackle the "elephant in the room" of karate: the unique and often-ignored Naihanchi fist. We challenge the pervasive notion that karate is solely about striking, arguing that the peculiar shape of the Naihanchi fist is a crucial clue to the kata's original function. 🧐Discover why this specific fist, with its top finger half-open and thumb wrapped over it, is fundamentally different from a standard punching fist. We explore how this hand shape has been overlooked in countless discussions about Naihanchi's applications, despite being clearly demonstrated in foundational texts like Gichin Funakoshi's Karatedo Kyohan. 📜We reveal that the Naihanchi fist is optimally designed for gripping and civil arrest techniques, emphasizing the physiological advantages of using the ring, middle, and little fingers for strong grip, while the index finger plays a minor role. This episode challenges the ballistic striking paradigm, suggesting that the kata's limited sideways movements and mid-level content also support a grappling interpretation. 💪🔒We also touch upon historical figures like Motobu Choki, whose "one-knuckle strike" might have been an adaptation inspired by the Naihanchi fist. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking a deeper, more historically accurate understanding of karate's rich and often misunderstood heritage. 🤯 delving into the past to uncover the truth!Relevant Links/Resources:
- Images discussed: https://www.kodoryu.com/research/naihanchi
- Naihanchi Grappling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJLm1OFMczA
- Karatedo Kyohan by Gichin Funakoshi: https://amzn.to/46SA42o
- The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do by Nagamine Shoshin: https://amzn.to/4kSYSLa
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Have you ever wondered about thehidden meanings behind karate's
most iconic forms? On this episode of Great Karate
Myths Debunking the Legends, we dive deep into the enigmatic
Nehanshi kata and specifically its unique fist.
Why is this peculiar handshake often ignored and what does it
(00:27):
reveal about the true origins ofkarate?
Forget what you think you know about punching.
This conversation will revolutionise your understanding
of karate's historical function.TuneIn to discover why this
specific fish shape holds the key to unlocking the kata's
original purpose. Tom, do you want to start us
(00:53):
off? Yeah, so, so the Nihanchi fist
is a really good topic because it, it's the elephant in the
room really when it comes to discussing Nihanchi, it's
original function and, and what it's becoming karate styles.
There's lots and lots of suggested applications and
(01:17):
theories about what Nihanchi's for that you can find, you know,
endlessly on YouTube and on websites and blogs and all that
kind of stuff. And everything from pressure
points to neck ranks and self defence and fudging and ground
fighting and on a wooden wing Chun dummy and all the rest of
it. But one thing that ties all of
(01:39):
those different suggested ideas together, or one thing that
doesn't, is none of them ever explain what the Nyhanjun fist
is actually intended for. So it's different from a
standard fist where all of the fingers are closed wrapped with
the thumb wrapping around the the top two.
In the Nohengine fist, the the bottom three fingers are curled
(02:01):
in, but the the top finger is, is left half open and the thumb
wraps over the top of it. And it's very, very different
from a, a fist that you might use to punch or strike with.
And you can see a clear example of it in Kitchenfur Nakoshi's
Karate DoH Johan, which was his his master text for his style of
(02:24):
karate. And so it's a good I think
that's a good leaping off point really.
Why is that fist never discussed?
So you can have in the explanations about the Nihanshin
stance and pressure point strikes and neck cranks and what
(02:44):
you do on the streets, but no one ever talks about that fist
and what it was for. And it's quite, it's really
central to what it was originally for, which we'll get
to at some point. But I thought we might start
with where, you know, talking a little bit about karate history.
Where did the night hand ship fist go in terms of karate?
(03:07):
What was it used for? Where did it go?
So we've got some Nathan hopefully will just bleep into
discussing show to Kaif and we've also got motor boot to
talk about as well. So yeah, I'll hand it over
there. So just to clarify, we're
talking about the Neihanchen Fest very specifically.
(03:30):
We're not in terms of karate. We're not talking about the
Sakehead Fest, the Regulation Fest.
No. And so the description is what
sets it apart. The standard saken, all four
fingers are tightly wrapped in into the palm and that became
the standard karate punch, the Knohangian fist, the forefinger,
(03:53):
the top joint is kept straight and it's only bent from the
middle knuckle and then the thumb wraps around it.
But we'll add a photo within thedescription that that shows
this. So if anyone that has practised
karate and perhaps not come across it, the oldest versions
of not a hand should certainly extend in Okinawa.
(04:14):
Use a different fist from what you might find to say in Wadaroo
or modern styles of karate, which essentially abandoned it
or or it became something else. So, yeah, Nathan, yes, OK, well
it. It's also it's kept this this
fist that Tom has described in in which the index finger is
(04:35):
only bent at the the basal jointand the second joint is left
straight. So the fingers effectively
straight. All of the other fingers are are
bent and and the thumb wraps around that basic basic index
finger persisted. In fact, not only is it
(05:00):
demonstrated in as a fist clench, one of two illustrated
in Karate Dokieham. So so for any book collectors, I
think I'm talking about the WardLocke British edition 1976
probably. But karate Dokieohan.
I think it's that's why I lookedit up earlier.
(05:22):
I think it's page 17 that you can see the fist clench.
What is interesting is that the translator Oysimer say and say
Oysimer Tutomu, who was one of how did the Mitsusuke sentences
(05:42):
contemporaries. They they went back those two.
Well, actually they went back and forth in a class like
competitive way. That fist peculiar fist clench
for anyone that's observant can see that Oytemacenci is using
(06:03):
that fist clench all the way through the the photographic
sequence of Techie, sand, Chodan, Nidan and Sandan.
So in all three of those, Katha Oytemacenci is using that
particular fist clench, which iswhich is curious to say the
(06:28):
least. It it, it, it continued.
And strange ways of counting a fist occur with other.
Well, if you consider that to bestrange, let me rephrase.
That. Not that normal say can is as
(06:52):
Tom described with all of the knuckles clenched tightly and
the thumb enveloping them. The the a strange fish shape was
used by multiple Chokie who allegedly and historically
preferred or utilised something called Epon Ken, which is the
(07:17):
one knuckle strike and you couldsee this one knuckle phenomenon
being is exacerbated by appearing in wakey view Karata
and other spas taken as a true as the mainstream.
(07:37):
Yes, there's such a thing as A1 knuckle strike.
Well, good luck with that. If you if you don't hit an
intended soft car, get good luckto you and damage to your fist.
This, in my view originates withthe first Kent in the original
fiscal for the knight Hanson, which actually is designed to
(08:00):
accentuate the grip of the little ring and middle fingers
in collaboration with the thumb,in which all stronger, including
for instance in swordsmanship. And Matt and Tom know this very
well-being, the swordsman that they are.
(08:21):
The index finger is always left out of such a grip equation for
purely anatomical and physiological reasons, as anyone
who's trained will know to. This is what's being accentuated
in the fist grip for Nihantian. I'll pass it over to someone
else for a minute before I go onto the show to Kai.
(08:45):
So someone else would like to just jump in and I'll come back
to the show for the Kai. So this isn't a monologue done
by me, Matt. Well, I mean, not too much
really, just to say that it's absolutely right.
You know, when you, when you grip something, for example, if
you're gripping a weapon, for example a sword, yes, the, the
(09:09):
index finger plays a very minor role.
Actually, most of the grip strength comes from the middle
finger, the ring finger, the little finger and the thumb in
concert together. So, yeah, to me it makes, it
makes absolute sense that if youwere to make a fist with the
(09:31):
index finger, you know, more straight than than the others at
the, at the smaller joint, then yeah, you're, you're quite
clearly indicating that that, that thing, it doesn't play a
major role. And the the fist you're making
is symbolic of, of a grip. It it just, it's very clear it
(09:53):
it makes absolute sense to starthitting something hard making a
fist that way. I think you probably do quite a
lot of damage to your. Index knuckle.
Yeah, I agree. I've I've done bag work.
I'm sure a lot of other people have.
I've seen boxing up close. No one punched with with their
(10:16):
fists like that. They just don't.
You'd bet you'd put your finger for sure.
This is bizarre. I think it's well.
I think it's well known as well,isn't it?
So you we've got lots and lots of different ideas and and
applications circulating for Nihantry, but that sort of the,
(10:38):
the no Hanshin fist, the the elephant in the room is just is
ignored really. And there's no explanation made
for it whatsoever. It's just, it has to be ignored.
Otherwise the ballistic applications almost shouldn't
exist. You have to make a modification
in order to make to make their idea.
(11:00):
Make it fit their ideas rather. No, I I wonder why actually is
is I wonder what the explanationfor sort of not addressing it
is. Do do people think that it was
just a strange idiosyncrasy of kitchen Funakoshi?
Sorry. Or, or is it, I don't know, is
(11:22):
it 1 secret this year to be unravelled?
I don't know why. It's why it's not addressed at
all, just put to one side, when really it's it's, it's crucial,
isn't it, to understanding what my hat is for.
It's an odd, it's an odd cutter to pick as well for ballistic
(11:45):
applications. There's not a great deal of
content and it's all taking place in the mid level, all with
this peculiar fist shape. It's it's an odd choice for the
stance. There's not really a much
footwork. There's not a lot of it's it's,
yeah, it's and when there. Is footwork you're just moving
sideways? Yeah.
(12:07):
And so you've got this limited content anyway, and you've got
this peculiar fist shape. You've got to ignore.
Something which is really central to it or when it
appears, as Nathan's already pointed out, all the way through
the castle in order to kind of force the street fighting
applications or or pressure points or whatever into it.
(12:28):
So and I think with just jumpingback to Chokie Motable, it's
worth mentioning that the main, I think one of the only cater he
practised was was Nihanshi, which he practised allegedly
several 100 times a day. And so his karate kind of was
Nihanshi was central to his karate and that his closer Ken
(12:53):
which is 1 knuckle type fist might have been inspired by an
adaptation of the Neihanshin fist.
I'm not saying it was exactly that, but if Neihanshin central
to what he does and he's doing ballistic applications, it kind
of makes sense that that could be the case.
Well, I'm, I'm clear that our topic is the 5th strange hand
(13:19):
positions that we find in well, anomalous hand positions that we
find in carafe. But it's also important to
remember that Nihanshin in the words of Nagamine Shoshin in his
essence of Okanam karate, but hesaid that prior to the creation
(13:42):
of, of the Pinan, that Nihanshinwas actually the beginner's
katha. It was to the Shuri school at
what Sanchin was to very Naha. School.
So this case is very important, Catherine.
As Tom says, it's a bit old to be sort of only you move
sideways. Everything's basically done at
(14:03):
the Sudan at the middle level, although practitioners of
Shorter can have an exaggerated raise of the first in in techie
Shoden, which actually doesn't occur.
I don't want to get into a doctrinal dispute, but it
doesn't occur in the original Shorinri or Shudite, no Hanshin
(14:25):
at all. So there's nothing above the
middle level in the entire Qatar, which is a bit strange,
particularly if you follow the stories.
Motor Boot had allegedly 100 fights in the Tutti, the red
light district of Naha, I believe, and never lost.
(14:46):
So I, you know, yeah, I, I, I'm.A fan of tall tales?
They make for, they make for fun.
But the the the fact is that Mocha had actually raised the
hand positions for his Knohanshin.
So he kept the correct stance, but he raised some of the hand
(15:06):
positions to Jordan level, whichyou can see that's continued on
in to the wadaroo, the Japanese wadaroo style, because that so
the founder of word of the Rue spent some time studying with
Motabu and as they actually did Nagamine, Nagamine Shoshin spent
(15:32):
six months with studying with Motabu.
Nagamine had kept everything as it originally was, but Oska then
say the founder of word of the Rue raised the hand positions in
my Hansing to Dodan, which historically had been had
(15:56):
originated with Motobu in his attempt to not be struck in the
head. So should this kind of have
should we all revise it so that the movements of Jordan I I my
it's a rhetorical question, but back to the first clench.
I think it I'm going to step aside now and let someone else
(16:20):
comment, and then I'll come on to the the particulars of the
Shokakai fist clench. I think that that's sort of a
good start really with it. Yeah.
I mean, we're not. What's we often talk about is
(16:41):
what's said about the cater and what people have thought the
cater for. But I haven't really encountered
anyone else's explanations for what the Nihanshin fists for,
other than it being another a method of punching or it somehow
creates a stronger punch, which we we all know is nonsense.
I've never really encountered any other ideas.
(17:02):
I suppose one I one question that might naturally come up
from anyone listening to this discussion is if we've said that
the other antique forms are to do with weapons, why are we
suggesting that Nihanshin isn't?And if that which we are, and
why wouldn't we, why is it not for weapons?
That might be something worth answering as well.
(17:26):
Well, we can say it's nonsense, but there are going to be
schools out there, there are going to be practitioners out
there who who do punch with thator in that way and swear by it.
You know, that's what they've known, that's what they've been
taught, maybe from a young age. Yeah.
(17:46):
It's not a natural fist. It's not a fist anyone untrained
would create. Oh, I mean.
I, I would if someone's using that and it they say it's
effective, I, I would ask for what, what is the effect that
they're suggesting it has? And just, and also it's not
really an argument if I've done it for a long time, doesn't make
(18:09):
it right or or useful. And so it's it's about what is
that useful? For.
You know is The thing is, is it's really specific.
So it's, you know, it's very unusual and it's as I said, it's
(18:30):
key to the whole cater which is grappling.
You know that that 9 handshoon fist implies grip gripping.
You're gripping someone else by the wrists, the hands and the
forearms and that see those sequence of movements.
We know nation can go into a bita bit more, but that's what it's
(18:51):
for. And so we're presenting it.
What's that fist useful? It's useful for training
gripping and it has A and there's a physiological
advantage to training that, you know, to training that habit
through a series of movements tokeep a grip tight and
coordinated as you work your waythrough different movements and
(19:13):
positions. So there's a usefulness to
making that fish shape and practising it in a catter.
I would argue there's no usefulness for that fish shaped
in in a ballistic form. At all.
Yeah, if they want to jump in there.
No, yeah. No, I think that's absolutely
(19:34):
right. I mean, what came to mind,
Shanir, when you asked that question was that people persist
with trying to work out how to strike that fist.
For the same reason that Wade Julio practitioners shove their
fingers into buckets of different substances of
different degrees of, you know, punishment for your fingers to
(19:57):
try and toughen the ends of their their fingers to
strengthen them for striking with the fingertips.
Which, you know, we know as wellis rather more dangerous for the
person doing the striking than the person being struck.
It's just operating under a wrong paradigm really, and not
(20:20):
wanting to step outside of that ballistic striking paradigm
because that's what people have been told the karate is all
about. It's about powerful striking.
And if you take that as your starting assumption, then you
know, and, and analogy we've used before, you try to bang in
(20:44):
that nail with any tool that comes to hand, whether it's the
right tool or not. So yeah, it's it's to my mind
anyway, it's just operating under a wrong paradigm, not
wanting to see the clues that have been left there and and
grateful we are that that clue has been left there.
(21:04):
That despite it's obvious lack of utility for striking that
fist, that fist has persisted, luckily, because that's rather
an important clue as to what theKnight Andrews actually.
For and looking at the form, I mean the activities when we
(21:26):
practise it as a grappling. Stiff arrest.
Series of techniques the person is in front of the the the
person doing the the grappling. The act of using the techniques
not on the side. And in a, in a.
In a combat sort of sort of defensive, being a no one fights
side plays on because you'd haveyou're limiting yourself to one
(21:48):
arm. It's just it just.
Doesn't make any if you know nobody would ever see that in a
any of those, like a cage fights, whatever you want to
call them. You will never see anything like
that in one of those scenarios because it's not what it's for.
(22:09):
I just want to clarify another word we use quite often when we
say grappling and when we talk about grappling, because that
can bring about connotations. Sort of dudo.
Wrestling and ground grappling. We're not talking about sporting
grappling. So you've got you've got
(22:32):
there's, I mean, there's lots and lots of different types of
grappling here. But I suppose for the Nihan chin
will link the video to the catalogue of, of wrist and wrist
elbow in arm grappling that we're talking about here.
And the catalogue of techniques that is, is in the Nihan chin.
(22:55):
That's what we're talking about there and probably leaning more
towards something like civil arrest.
Yeah, I think that's a good distinction to make, actually.
Yeah. We're talking about Chinnar.
We're not talking about, you know, grappling that you might
see in in a BJJ studio or anything like that.
Yeah. It's just for, you know.
(23:18):
Adding to Matt's point as well about we're we're really lucky
that it's been preserved becausethat the fish shape could have
been lost quite easily because of the lack of utility when it
comes to ballistic karate. Or, you know, it's also evidence
that the function was lost because nobody has suggested,
(23:40):
not to my knowledge anyway before Nathan and and Co
discovered it, that it's for grappling.
So that cater in that form has been preserved for a long time
without anyone saying this is specifically a form of Chinese
civil arrestor type grappling. And but it's been preserved.
(24:05):
And so we're really lucky to have that lovely piece of
evidence, that lovely, that lovely component of that cater
to support the, it's the story of that form, the transmission
of it, the original function being lost, what it's become is
being rediscovered and restored and this sort of type of
(24:28):
discussion around it. Well, I'd like to add to that
it's progressed that the curiousthat is interesting.
There's AIII think, but let me just start with the Shotokan
(24:49):
emblem, the tiger, which was created by the artist Holm
Kosugi. Kosugi did that.
I think it might have been as early as 1923, but I can't
actually remember. Sorry, I should know but Kosugi
also did AAI think he was the artist but did a a line drawing
(25:13):
sort of version of a fist. I can't fist but I think the
original I could be excuse the dates if they're wrong, then
192324 fini constitution centes book red in Karachi jutsu and
and this shows a fist in in which the the the thumb is
(25:39):
towards the person viewing and the index and middle fingers are
protruding more than the ring and little fingers.
And it's interesting that a similar image appears in a an
emblem, a badge that later cropped up with the Goju Kai,
(26:01):
the Japanese version of of Goju Ru pioneered by Yamaguchi Gogan
sensei. This, this particular.
So this was a bit of a fad or a fashion.
Now my personal experience, which started from the IT was in
(26:23):
my teens, was how did the Mitsuzuki dent that who, who was
the principal of the Kalahido Sokakai, the KDS?
Who was well, I, I have nothing but regard for him and his type
(26:44):
of karate was not gay. Was there's no way was it showy.
You know, it's not for TV or film.
But there was a his he was incredibly sincere and so was
his karate. But the he his the 5th clench
that he caught when I was first beginning karate, I'd had other
(27:10):
kinetic experiences, but he saidthat the flat fist was wrong and
he showed me why and this is notthe theory or this is this
happened. I did the normal regulate She
can the first fence in which theback of the wrist is flat with
the forearm and he just got holdof that my wrist and just bent
(27:33):
the first down out. It was painful.
Then he put he tilted my fist slightly upward so that my index
finger and middle finger knuckles were in in in line, not
in line with my ulnar and radius, but in the middle of my
(27:54):
forearm. So it was the classic Suzukai
bent wrist, not overly bent, butbent and the, and the prominent
2 knuckles, the index finger andthe middle finger.
Well, the little finger and ringfinger were really tight though.
In fact, the whole fist was meant to be tight.
But this was very different fromthe the shutter can or, or the
(28:18):
Sharon Roux or even the Goji, the stuff that I'd seen and
experienced this, this this fistcatch was OK.
And then I had a sense he then bent my well, he couldn't bend
my but my wrist all caused me pain.
That convinced me. We had the understanding of a
(28:40):
Cairo, a beginner, a teenager. But he he that convinced me and
that stayed with me for some some time that now I'll come
back to this point when we come on to pictures of Yuna Koshi
Kitchen Sensei, the founder of Shutakan karate, because I think
(29:04):
it's quite important to make thecomparison that that we we need
to make. So I believe it's a true story.
Winfrey across Egyptian sensei. He was very he was unwell and
when he was dying, one of his students reported the fact that
they feared for the masters health in his life because he
(29:29):
sat at the end of his bed and practised Suki thirsting punch.
And he said he said, ah, I believe, I believe I'm beginning
to feel the true Suki, the true punch.
And that alarmed his students because they thought, well, they
(29:50):
said never has the master trained any mastery.
And that's that that's quite Kelly.
My suspicion is, as we know thatthe shelter can school that
food. Of course, he did not by his own
(30:11):
design gave his pen name to because Shoto was actually his
pen name. It wasn't obviously his his his
own name. But that had the usual OK now
and thrust punch and Kimmei at the end, which we've already
identified originates with the use of a weapon.
(30:33):
Boxers don't use it. It's not necessary for a punch.
And in fact, the Chateau Chi, I love it.
Love it or otherwise, the Chateau Chi dispense with the
Kimae altogether and created what provisional appearance
looks like a soft karate. But the punch went through, it
(30:54):
didn't. It wasn't halted.
This is revolutionary. And this was brought about by
Egami Sugaru, a very early prominent student of Inikoshi
Jichen Sensei. And he had learned, strangely
(31:14):
learned a soft punch from a junior called Okoyama.
Okoyama demonstrated this to Egami Sugaru, his own senior.
And Egami said whoa, OK, He, he really took it on board.
In fact that. Was the creation of the Shotokai
style. Now let's give this some time
(31:36):
frame. Correct me anyone?
I believe this was in the 30s. If you look at early photographs
of Egami Sugaru, you can see that he's practising
conventional looking Sotokan canality.
He's in the name, mixing it up with Finnicotti Ditchen since
(31:57):
his son, I think third from Yoshi Taka Funukoshi, who's
using that old flat fist, who's using, well, the sort of.
In fact, he's probably the originator of those deep
stances. Like notwithstanding the first
clench that the shojakai used was promoted by Adami Shivaru
(32:19):
when he had a conversion to Okuyamba's soft punch.
Now here's the rub. Here's the bit the the the
important bit when we see the picture of of Funicosi Jitin
sensei, which is is a public is is out there on the Internet
gripping the person he's demonstrating me, I think is oh
(32:41):
Barta Ifao Ifao so, but I think it's a Barta, his trusty one of
his trusty lieutenants. He's gripping with his Funicosi
Jitin, gripping with his left hand, and he's throwing a punch
with his right in which it's clear that the knuckles are in
(33:02):
the Schotakai formation. In other words, the wrist is
bent. It's not parallel or flat, not
in the way you'd find it in Sharan Ru or Gojiru or anything
else. That wrist is bent in a way
that, as far as I'm aware, only the Schotakai do.
As you can really see the use ofthe Schotakai Fist which has.
(33:24):
Index. Finger and little finger
protruding and the and the wristbent so unlike and this would
have been his lifetime habitat as he have the back of that
wrist flat so A twist punched with the other and radius over
each other. But the back of the wrist is is
flat in in conventional okenao and surely take karate.
(33:48):
This Soto Clive wrist is very different.
The wrist is bent, tilted upwards, and you can clearly see
that in the in, in this very famous photograph.
I don't believe this is a coincidence.
And I dive in with what I said that Finicosi Ditin sensei said
that when he was in A at a very advanced stage, seated on the
edge of his bed and unwell. And he said, ah, I think I'm
(34:12):
beginning to feel the true Suki.I believe that.
Oh, I imagine that he had changed, possibly under the
influence of the Garmin, Shigu and others, maybe even Okoyama,
to a soft punch. Not soft as in floppy or weak,
(34:35):
but as a punch with no kimmei, no halting or focus, and a punch
that that used that shotokai first.
I think that's perfectly possible.
And and for me it's the the mostsensible solution to the problem
that if you look at early pictures of Funicoshi Jitian
(34:57):
Sensei and it's contemporary, they always have that flat fist.
Although admittedly, admittedly,Yoshitek Fiona Koshi, say Fiona
Koshi, I think it's his third son, as I said earlier, does
tend to have a slightly bent wrist.
I think that may have occurred quite naturally from hitting
(35:19):
things and particularly hitting things that Westerners hit, as
in bags, padded bags, sandbags, rather than makiwara.
It's interesting, I know this from personal experience.
You can easily hit a makiwara, Astriking, A striking board, you
know, stuck into the ground and quite often padded with rice
(35:43):
straw or anything of your choosing.
You can actually hit that with your wrist flat in in the
conventional Okinawan fist configuration, the traditional
secan, but not so with a hangingbag or a boxing bag.
Hit that with the wrist flat. Whoa, you get pain in problems.
(36:07):
So that's the case. I think that maybe through
Yoshitaka, I think that some of the Schotter can had tilted
their fists up slightly. The Schotter kite tilted the
first up even further. And it's interesting that the
Schotter kite don't use a Makawara or a or a a punching
(36:31):
bag. They don't do either.
And I think these are the factors that to affect how a
style or a group will clench their fist.
On a finishing note in this section here for me, if you're
punching the solar plexus, you can afford the luxury of a
(36:54):
protruded index and middle finger.
If you're punching a hard objectlike a head or skull or then you
cannot afford that luxury. And the original C Ken of of
Shorin Ru Karate has the first the the the wrist flat and uses
(37:20):
just the top 2 knuckles. So this this what we see is a a
development. But I think that Fina Koshy's
chitin senso changed his idea and his practise in in the
latter days of his life. So in the in the original
(37:43):
function of Nihanshi, the the grappling function, you need to
have a flat fist. So you need that's taken like
shape, nice flat fist and forearm in order to ensure that
you've got that grip nice and tight.
If you bend your wrist back, youcompromise the grip and it's the
(38:07):
same if you bend your wrist too far inwards.
Do you compromise the grip? So the nice the top 2 knuckles
in line with the forearm bones. A nice flat fist is is what's
optimal for for tight gripping, which is in line with the
original function. And so it makes sense that if
(38:28):
the Nihantian Fist did inspire in some way, the the Shotoko
Fish store A1 knuckle strike is in the case of Motorboo and
things like that, they would needed of to, as Nathan's
described, change the alignment of the first with the forearm to
accommodate striking and hittingand impact and so on and so on.
(38:49):
But for gripping, certainly, andin line with the original Knight
Hanson, it needs to be a nice flat saken.
That's an excellent and important point, Tom, and well
made my essay that that it's that the flat wrist in the
Neihenchin grip when you appliedanatomically, when you've got
(39:13):
when you're gripping your partner or opponent's wrist,
when you apply the pressures that you need to, just that fist
being pushed into a straight position causes considerable
discomfort to the person you're applying the lock on.
And and without that, they have a degree of traction left to
(39:39):
them which the operative cannot afford to give because you don't
want that dozen to escape from the grid at all, because the
whole, the whole idea is to arrest them.
So Tom's completely right. The original flat wrist saikan
or fist grip of traditional Okanan karata is completely
(40:04):
correct. Grappling.
Yes, thank you, Tom. For grappling, I think that is
that is the reason to to have a cater as well, because that's
something that needs to be practised.
You know that sort of alignment and working through a range of
(40:25):
techniques and sustaining it is something that is it's useful to
practise so that the kind of utility of having a cater for
locking starts to emerge with with as that understanding of
that grappling function deepens and you can feed again.
Same with the weapons forms. You feedback your experience
(40:46):
into the solo practise and work keeping that forearm, that
alignment of the wrist and forearm, the Dahanchon fist nice
and tight with the intention that you're, that you're
locking, throwing, grappling andand so on.
Again, it's what we're trying toemphasise here is, is that the
(41:09):
fist is so important for the function and that it, it's one
of those things that needs to beexplained.
And with the antique forms, you can't ignore these things.
You can't go, well, I'm just going to completely ignored
something as obscure as the Nihantian fist and turn it into
whatever I want and, and then sell it or whatever.
(41:29):
You know, it's, I think it's, it's crucial to understand
everything. It's you can't say if I'm going
to translate this text, I'm going to skip every third word.
And because I don't fancy it or I can't explain it.
You've got to somehow arrive at a, a, a complete understanding
of what has been preserved and in the Hanshini Okinawa that
(41:53):
fist has been central to it and same in the Shotokan and it's
evolution into Shotokan and and the rest, yes.
I think it might be, might be worth pointing out the, the, the
photo that Nathan was referring to of Gichen from the Koshy
(42:15):
throwing that, that that punch with the, the two knuckles
prominent as AKA Schoetzky style.
You look at his left hand, the grip that he has on the wrist.
It's a rather good, it's a rather good demonstration of
what we've been talking about. He's got a nice straight wrist
(42:37):
and you can see that his index finger is playing a minor role
in that grip, which you know, and he's had and he's, despite
being advanced in, in years, he clearly has rather a firm grip
on that arm. Yes, he's, he's utilising, he's
(42:57):
utilising that grip and the worry that we've been
describing, he's indexing plays a minor role.
So I I find that photo is absolutely a bit more useful to
to look at the left hand actually as a reference point.
It's quite a spectacular form and function, really.
(43:17):
Yeah, and again. Looking at the context.
Yeah, looking at the grip, looking at.
The hand shape. Putting in the context of wrist
grappling, arm grappling, not frantic chaotic punching.
Dance around someone. There's no head.
(43:39):
Butting in it and there's no, there's there's no, you know,
sweeteners. You don't chin them first or, or
anything to get them into the lot.
It's it's, it's asking somethingmore of the person practising
it. It's asking to it's asking them
to develop a quite a high level of skill and the physicality
(43:59):
required to do that type of grappling really well and
efficiently without resorting. Because Nathan wrote about it
all. You know, all these books about
not resorting to a kind of extremely violent methods
because you could just as easilypunch someone in the face and
then put them in a lock that, you know, that would be a really
(44:20):
simpler way of doing it and you know, in some ways more
effective. But that's not what this method
is. Is is pointing towards.
No, because once again, there's an ethic there.
There's an ethic that's being embodied.
It's about subduing and controlling limbs so that it
doesn't escalate into something much more violent.
(44:44):
Yeah. And, and in quite a dignified
way actually, you know, you're brutalising the other person.
You're simply controlling them and preventing them from
escalating. And that for the individuals
that would have used that would have had to have been highly
(45:06):
skilled and and very fit, very strong.
And, you know, one of the top most important aspects of that
would have been their grip power.
So that's why the grip, the hand, the fist is central to No
Hanson, if you haven't got any grip power, you're not doing it
(45:26):
as simple as that. You can kind of get away with
other stuff if your stance isn'tas good or you know, it's not
that it shouldn't be, but you can get away with other things.
What you can't cheat on is the grip power.
You just won't be able to hang on to them.
So yeah, that's the Nyhanji Fist.
(45:53):
And that brings us to the end ofanother fascinating episode of
great Karate myths Debunking thelegends.
Today we explored how the uniqueNyhanji Fist is a vital clue,
pointing towards the kata's original function in grappling
and civil arrest rather than ballistic striking.
We learnt that it's peculiar shape, often overlooked, is
(46:15):
perfectly designed for a powerful controlling grip, not
punching, and that it's preservation over time is a
lucky break for understanding karate's true history.
If you enjoyed this discussion, please subscribe, leave a
review, and share this episode with fellow martial arts
enthusiasts. Thank you for listening.
Have you ever wondered about thehidden meanings behind karate's
most iconic forms? On this episode of Great Karate
Myths Debunking the Legends, we dive deep into the enigmatic
Nehanshi kata and specifically its unique fist.
Why is this peculiar handshake often ignored and what does it
(00:27):
reveal about the true origins ofkarate?
Forget what you think you know about punching.
This conversation will revolutionise your understanding
of karate's historical function.TuneIn to discover why this
specific fish shape holds the key to unlocking the kata's
original purpose. Tom, do you want to start us
(00:53):
off? Yeah, so, so the Nihanchi fist
is a really good topic because it, it's the elephant in the
room really when it comes to discussing Nihanchi, it's
original function and, and what it's becoming karate styles.
There's lots and lots of suggested applications and
(01:17):
theories about what Nihanchi's for that you can find, you know,
endlessly on YouTube and on websites and blogs and all that
kind of stuff. And everything from pressure
points to neck ranks and self defence and fudging and ground
fighting and on a wooden wing Chun dummy and all the rest of
it. But one thing that ties all of
(01:39):
those different suggested ideas together, or one thing that
doesn't, is none of them ever explain what the Nyhanjun fist
is actually intended for. So it's different from a
standard fist where all of the fingers are closed wrapped with
the thumb wrapping around the the top two.
In the Nohengine fist, the the bottom three fingers are curled
(02:01):
in, but the the top finger is, is left half open and the thumb
wraps over the top of it. And it's very, very different
from a, a fist that you might use to punch or strike with.
And you can see a clear example of it in Kitchenfur Nakoshi's
Karate DoH Johan, which was his his master text for his style of
(02:24):
karate. And so it's a good I think
that's a good leaping off point really.
Why is that fist never discussed?
So you can have in the explanations about the Nihanshin
stance and pressure point strikes and neck cranks and what
(02:44):
you do on the streets, but no one ever talks about that fist
and what it was for. And it's quite, it's really
central to what it was originally for, which we'll get
to at some point. But I thought we might start
with where, you know, talking a little bit about karate history.
Where did the night hand ship fist go in terms of karate?
(03:07):
What was it used for? Where did it go?
So we've got some Nathan hopefully will just bleep into
discussing show to Kaif and we've also got motor boot to
talk about as well. So yeah, I'll hand it over
there. So just to clarify, we're
talking about the Neihanchen Fest very specifically.
(03:30):
We're not in terms of karate. We're not talking about the
Sakehead Fest, the Regulation Fest.
No. And so the description is what
sets it apart. The standard saken, all four
fingers are tightly wrapped in into the palm and that became
the standard karate punch, the Knohangian fist, the forefinger,
(03:53):
the top joint is kept straight and it's only bent from the
middle knuckle and then the thumb wraps around it.
But we'll add a photo within thedescription that that shows
this. So if anyone that has practised
karate and perhaps not come across it, the oldest versions
of not a hand should certainly extend in Okinawa.
(04:14):
Use a different fist from what you might find to say in Wadaroo
or modern styles of karate, which essentially abandoned it
or or it became something else. So, yeah, Nathan, yes, OK, well
it. It's also it's kept this this
fist that Tom has described in in which the index finger is
(04:35):
only bent at the the basal jointand the second joint is left
straight. So the fingers effectively
straight. All of the other fingers are are
bent and and the thumb wraps around that basic basic index
finger persisted. In fact, not only is it
(05:00):
demonstrated in as a fist clench, one of two illustrated
in Karate Dokieham. So so for any book collectors, I
think I'm talking about the WardLocke British edition 1976
probably. But karate Dokieohan.
I think it's that's why I lookedit up earlier.
(05:22):
I think it's page 17 that you can see the fist clench.
What is interesting is that the translator Oysimer say and say
Oysimer Tutomu, who was one of how did the Mitsusuke sentences
(05:42):
contemporaries. They they went back those two.
Well, actually they went back and forth in a class like
competitive way. That fist peculiar fist clench
for anyone that's observant can see that Oytemacenci is using
(06:03):
that fist clench all the way through the the photographic
sequence of Techie, sand, Chodan, Nidan and Sandan.
So in all three of those, Katha Oytemacenci is using that
particular fist clench, which iswhich is curious to say the
(06:28):
least. It it, it, it continued.
And strange ways of counting a fist occur with other.
Well, if you consider that to bestrange, let me rephrase.
That. Not that normal say can is as
(06:52):
Tom described with all of the knuckles clenched tightly and
the thumb enveloping them. The the a strange fish shape was
used by multiple Chokie who allegedly and historically
preferred or utilised something called Epon Ken, which is the
(07:17):
one knuckle strike and you couldsee this one knuckle phenomenon
being is exacerbated by appearing in wakey view Karata
and other spas taken as a true as the mainstream.
(07:37):
Yes, there's such a thing as A1 knuckle strike.
Well, good luck with that. If you if you don't hit an
intended soft car, get good luckto you and damage to your fist.
This, in my view originates withthe first Kent in the original
fiscal for the knight Hanson, which actually is designed to
(08:00):
accentuate the grip of the little ring and middle fingers
in collaboration with the thumb,in which all stronger, including
for instance in swordsmanship. And Matt and Tom know this very
well-being, the swordsman that they are.
(08:21):
The index finger is always left out of such a grip equation for
purely anatomical and physiological reasons, as anyone
who's trained will know to. This is what's being accentuated
in the fist grip for Nihantian. I'll pass it over to someone
else for a minute before I go onto the show to Kai.
(08:45):
So someone else would like to just jump in and I'll come back
to the show for the Kai. So this isn't a monologue done
by me, Matt. Well, I mean, not too much
really, just to say that it's absolutely right.
You know, when you, when you grip something, for example, if
you're gripping a weapon, for example a sword, yes, the, the
(09:09):
index finger plays a very minor role.
Actually, most of the grip strength comes from the middle
finger, the ring finger, the little finger and the thumb in
concert together. So, yeah, to me it makes, it
makes absolute sense that if youwere to make a fist with the
(09:31):
index finger, you know, more straight than than the others at
the, at the smaller joint, then yeah, you're, you're quite
clearly indicating that that, that thing, it doesn't play a
major role. And the the fist you're making
is symbolic of, of a grip. It it just, it's very clear it
(09:53):
it makes absolute sense to starthitting something hard making a
fist that way. I think you probably do quite a
lot of damage to your. Index knuckle.
Yeah, I agree. I've I've done bag work.
I'm sure a lot of other people have.
I've seen boxing up close. No one punched with with their
(10:16):
fists like that. They just don't.
You'd bet you'd put your finger for sure.
This is bizarre. I think it's well.
I think it's well known as well,isn't it?
So you we've got lots and lots of different ideas and and
applications circulating for Nihantry, but that sort of the,
(10:38):
the no Hanshin fist, the the elephant in the room is just is
ignored really. And there's no explanation made
for it whatsoever. It's just, it has to be ignored.
Otherwise the ballistic applications almost shouldn't
exist. You have to make a modification
in order to make to make their idea.
(11:00):
Make it fit their ideas rather. No, I I wonder why actually is
is I wonder what the explanationfor sort of not addressing it
is. Do do people think that it was
just a strange idiosyncrasy of kitchen Funakoshi?
Sorry. Or, or is it, I don't know, is
(11:22):
it 1 secret this year to be unravelled?
I don't know why. It's why it's not addressed at
all, just put to one side, when really it's it's, it's crucial,
isn't it, to understanding what my hat is for.
It's an odd, it's an odd cutter to pick as well for ballistic
(11:45):
applications. There's not a great deal of
content and it's all taking place in the mid level, all with
this peculiar fist shape. It's it's an odd choice for the
stance. There's not really a much
footwork. There's not a lot of it's it's,
yeah, it's and when there. Is footwork you're just moving
sideways? Yeah.
(12:07):
And so you've got this limited content anyway, and you've got
this peculiar fist shape. You've got to ignore.
Something which is really central to it or when it
appears, as Nathan's already pointed out, all the way through
the castle in order to kind of force the street fighting
applications or or pressure points or whatever into it.
(12:28):
So and I think with just jumpingback to Chokie Motable, it's
worth mentioning that the main, I think one of the only cater he
practised was was Nihanshi, which he practised allegedly
several 100 times a day. And so his karate kind of was
Nihanshi was central to his karate and that his closer Ken
(12:53):
which is 1 knuckle type fist might have been inspired by an
adaptation of the Neihanshin fist.
I'm not saying it was exactly that, but if Neihanshin central
to what he does and he's doing ballistic applications, it kind
of makes sense that that could be the case.
Well, I'm, I'm clear that our topic is the 5th strange hand
(13:19):
positions that we find in well, anomalous hand positions that we
find in carafe. But it's also important to
remember that Nihanshin in the words of Nagamine Shoshin in his
essence of Okanam karate, but hesaid that prior to the creation
(13:42):
of, of the Pinan, that Nihanshinwas actually the beginner's
katha. It was to the Shuri school at
what Sanchin was to very Naha. School.
So this case is very important, Catherine.
As Tom says, it's a bit old to be sort of only you move
sideways. Everything's basically done at
(14:03):
the Sudan at the middle level, although practitioners of
Shorter can have an exaggerated raise of the first in in techie
Shoden, which actually doesn't occur.
I don't want to get into a doctrinal dispute, but it
doesn't occur in the original Shorinri or Shudite, no Hanshin
(14:25):
at all. So there's nothing above the
middle level in the entire Qatar, which is a bit strange,
particularly if you follow the stories.
Motor Boot had allegedly 100 fights in the Tutti, the red
light district of Naha, I believe, and never lost.
(14:46):
So I, you know, yeah, I, I, I'm.A fan of tall tales?
They make for, they make for fun.
But the the the fact is that Mocha had actually raised the
hand positions for his Knohanshin.
So he kept the correct stance, but he raised some of the hand
(15:06):
positions to Jordan level, whichyou can see that's continued on
in to the wadaroo, the Japanese wadaroo style, because that so
the founder of word of the Rue spent some time studying with
Motabu and as they actually did Nagamine, Nagamine Shoshin spent
(15:32):
six months with studying with Motabu.
Nagamine had kept everything as it originally was, but Oska then
say the founder of word of the Rue raised the hand positions in
my Hansing to Dodan, which historically had been had
(15:56):
originated with Motobu in his attempt to not be struck in the
head. So should this kind of have
should we all revise it so that the movements of Jordan I I my
it's a rhetorical question, but back to the first clench.
I think it I'm going to step aside now and let someone else
(16:20):
comment, and then I'll come on to the the particulars of the
Shokakai fist clench. I think that that's sort of a
good start really with it. Yeah.
I mean, we're not. What's we often talk about is
(16:41):
what's said about the cater and what people have thought the
cater for. But I haven't really encountered
anyone else's explanations for what the Nihanshin fists for,
other than it being another a method of punching or it somehow
creates a stronger punch, which we we all know is nonsense.
I've never really encountered any other ideas.
(17:02):
I suppose one I one question that might naturally come up
from anyone listening to this discussion is if we've said that
the other antique forms are to do with weapons, why are we
suggesting that Nihanshin isn't?And if that which we are, and
why wouldn't we, why is it not for weapons?
That might be something worth answering as well.
(17:26):
Well, we can say it's nonsense, but there are going to be
schools out there, there are going to be practitioners out
there who who do punch with thator in that way and swear by it.
You know, that's what they've known, that's what they've been
taught, maybe from a young age. Yeah.
(17:46):
It's not a natural fist. It's not a fist anyone untrained
would create. Oh, I mean.
I, I would if someone's using that and it they say it's
effective, I, I would ask for what, what is the effect that
they're suggesting it has? And just, and also it's not
really an argument if I've done it for a long time, doesn't make
(18:09):
it right or or useful. And so it's it's about what is
that useful? For.
You know is The thing is, is it's really specific.
So it's, you know, it's very unusual and it's as I said, it's
(18:30):
key to the whole cater which is grappling.
You know that that 9 handshoon fist implies grip gripping.
You're gripping someone else by the wrists, the hands and the
forearms and that see those sequence of movements.
We know nation can go into a bita bit more, but that's what it's
(18:51):
for. And so we're presenting it.
What's that fist useful? It's useful for training
gripping and it has A and there's a physiological
advantage to training that, you know, to training that habit
through a series of movements tokeep a grip tight and
coordinated as you work your waythrough different movements and
(19:13):
positions. So there's a usefulness to
making that fish shape and practising it in a catter.
I would argue there's no usefulness for that fish shaped
in in a ballistic form. At all.
Yeah, if they want to jump in there.
No, yeah. No, I think that's absolutely
(19:34):
right. I mean, what came to mind,
Shanir, when you asked that question was that people persist
with trying to work out how to strike that fist.
For the same reason that Wade Julio practitioners shove their
fingers into buckets of different substances of
different degrees of, you know, punishment for your fingers to
(19:57):
try and toughen the ends of their their fingers to
strengthen them for striking with the fingertips.
Which, you know, we know as wellis rather more dangerous for the
person doing the striking than the person being struck.
It's just operating under a wrong paradigm really, and not
(20:20):
wanting to step outside of that ballistic striking paradigm
because that's what people have been told the karate is all
about. It's about powerful striking.
And if you take that as your starting assumption, then you
know, and, and analogy we've used before, you try to bang in
(20:44):
that nail with any tool that comes to hand, whether it's the
right tool or not. So yeah, it's it's to my mind
anyway, it's just operating under a wrong paradigm, not
wanting to see the clues that have been left there and and
grateful we are that that clue has been left there.
(21:04):
That despite it's obvious lack of utility for striking that
fist, that fist has persisted, luckily, because that's rather
an important clue as to what theKnight Andrews actually.
For and looking at the form, I mean the activities when we
(21:26):
practise it as a grappling. Stiff arrest.
Series of techniques the person is in front of the the the
person doing the the grappling. The act of using the techniques
not on the side. And in a, in a.
In a combat sort of sort of defensive, being a no one fights
side plays on because you'd haveyou're limiting yourself to one
(21:48):
arm. It's just it just.
Doesn't make any if you know nobody would ever see that in a
any of those, like a cage fights, whatever you want to
call them. You will never see anything like
that in one of those scenarios because it's not what it's for.
(22:09):
I just want to clarify another word we use quite often when we
say grappling and when we talk about grappling, because that
can bring about connotations. Sort of dudo.
Wrestling and ground grappling. We're not talking about sporting
grappling. So you've got you've got
(22:32):
there's, I mean, there's lots and lots of different types of
grappling here. But I suppose for the Nihan chin
will link the video to the catalogue of, of wrist and wrist
elbow in arm grappling that we're talking about here.
And the catalogue of techniques that is, is in the Nihan chin.
(22:55):
That's what we're talking about there and probably leaning more
towards something like civil arrest.
Yeah, I think that's a good distinction to make, actually.
Yeah. We're talking about Chinnar.
We're not talking about, you know, grappling that you might
see in in a BJJ studio or anything like that.
Yeah. It's just for, you know.
(23:18):
Adding to Matt's point as well about we're we're really lucky
that it's been preserved becausethat the fish shape could have
been lost quite easily because of the lack of utility when it
comes to ballistic karate. Or, you know, it's also evidence
that the function was lost because nobody has suggested,
(23:40):
not to my knowledge anyway before Nathan and and Co
discovered it, that it's for grappling.
So that cater in that form has been preserved for a long time
without anyone saying this is specifically a form of Chinese
civil arrestor type grappling. And but it's been preserved.
(24:05):
And so we're really lucky to have that lovely piece of
evidence, that lovely, that lovely component of that cater
to support the, it's the story of that form, the transmission
of it, the original function being lost, what it's become is
being rediscovered and restored and this sort of type of
(24:28):
discussion around it. Well, I'd like to add to that
it's progressed that the curiousthat is interesting.
There's AIII think, but let me just start with the Shotokan
(24:49):
emblem, the tiger, which was created by the artist Holm
Kosugi. Kosugi did that.
I think it might have been as early as 1923, but I can't
actually remember. Sorry, I should know but Kosugi
also did AAI think he was the artist but did a a line drawing
(25:13):
sort of version of a fist. I can't fist but I think the
original I could be excuse the dates if they're wrong, then
192324 fini constitution centes book red in Karachi jutsu and
and this shows a fist in in which the the the thumb is
(25:39):
towards the person viewing and the index and middle fingers are
protruding more than the ring and little fingers.
And it's interesting that a similar image appears in a an
emblem, a badge that later cropped up with the Goju Kai,
(26:01):
the Japanese version of of Goju Ru pioneered by Yamaguchi Gogan
sensei. This, this particular.
So this was a bit of a fad or a fashion.
Now my personal experience, which started from the IT was in
(26:23):
my teens, was how did the Mitsuzuki dent that who, who was
the principal of the Kalahido Sokakai, the KDS?
Who was well, I, I have nothing but regard for him and his type
(26:44):
of karate was not gay. Was there's no way was it showy.
You know, it's not for TV or film.
But there was a his he was incredibly sincere and so was
his karate. But the he his the 5th clench
that he caught when I was first beginning karate, I'd had other
(27:10):
kinetic experiences, but he saidthat the flat fist was wrong and
he showed me why and this is notthe theory or this is this
happened. I did the normal regulate She
can the first fence in which theback of the wrist is flat with
the forearm and he just got holdof that my wrist and just bent
(27:33):
the first down out. It was painful.
Then he put he tilted my fist slightly upward so that my index
finger and middle finger knuckles were in in in line, not
in line with my ulnar and radius, but in the middle of my
(27:54):
forearm. So it was the classic Suzukai
bent wrist, not overly bent, butbent and the, and the prominent
2 knuckles, the index finger andthe middle finger.
Well, the little finger and ringfinger were really tight though.
In fact, the whole fist was meant to be tight.
But this was very different fromthe the shutter can or, or the
(28:18):
Sharon Roux or even the Goji, the stuff that I'd seen and
experienced this, this this fistcatch was OK.
And then I had a sense he then bent my well, he couldn't bend
my but my wrist all caused me pain.
That convinced me. We had the understanding of a
(28:40):
Cairo, a beginner, a teenager. But he he that convinced me and
that stayed with me for some some time that now I'll come
back to this point when we come on to pictures of Yuna Koshi
Kitchen Sensei, the founder of Shutakan karate, because I think
(29:04):
it's quite important to make thecomparison that that we we need
to make. So I believe it's a true story.
Winfrey across Egyptian sensei. He was very he was unwell and
when he was dying, one of his students reported the fact that
they feared for the masters health in his life because he
(29:29):
sat at the end of his bed and practised Suki thirsting punch.
And he said he said, ah, I believe, I believe I'm beginning
to feel the true Suki, the true punch.
And that alarmed his students because they thought, well, they
(29:50):
said never has the master trained any mastery.
And that's that that's quite Kelly.
My suspicion is, as we know thatthe shelter can school that
food. Of course, he did not by his own
(30:11):
design gave his pen name to because Shoto was actually his
pen name. It wasn't obviously his his his
own name. But that had the usual OK now
and thrust punch and Kimmei at the end, which we've already
identified originates with the use of a weapon.
(30:33):
Boxers don't use it. It's not necessary for a punch.
And in fact, the Chateau Chi, I love it.
Love it or otherwise, the Chateau Chi dispense with the
Kimae altogether and created what provisional appearance
looks like a soft karate. But the punch went through, it
(30:54):
didn't. It wasn't halted.
This is revolutionary. And this was brought about by
Egami Sugaru, a very early prominent student of Inikoshi
Jichen Sensei. And he had learned, strangely
(31:14):
learned a soft punch from a junior called Okoyama.
Okoyama demonstrated this to Egami Sugaru, his own senior.
And Egami said whoa, OK, He, he really took it on board.
In fact that. Was the creation of the Shotokai
style. Now let's give this some time
(31:36):
frame. Correct me anyone?
I believe this was in the 30s. If you look at early photographs
of Egami Sugaru, you can see that he's practising
conventional looking Sotokan canality.
He's in the name, mixing it up with Finnicotti Ditchen since
(31:57):
his son, I think third from Yoshi Taka Funukoshi, who's
using that old flat fist, who's using, well, the sort of.
In fact, he's probably the originator of those deep
stances. Like notwithstanding the first
clench that the shojakai used was promoted by Adami Shivaru
(32:19):
when he had a conversion to Okuyamba's soft punch.
Now here's the rub. Here's the bit the the the
important bit when we see the picture of of Funicosi Jitin
sensei, which is is a public is is out there on the Internet
gripping the person he's demonstrating me, I think is oh
(32:41):
Barta Ifao Ifao so, but I think it's a Barta, his trusty one of
his trusty lieutenants. He's gripping with his Funicosi
Jitin, gripping with his left hand, and he's throwing a punch
with his right in which it's clear that the knuckles are in
(33:02):
the Schotakai formation. In other words, the wrist is
bent. It's not parallel or flat, not
in the way you'd find it in Sharan Ru or Gojiru or anything
else. That wrist is bent in a way
that, as far as I'm aware, only the Schotakai do.
As you can really see the use ofthe Schotakai Fist which has.
(33:24):
Index. Finger and little finger
protruding and the and the wristbent so unlike and this would
have been his lifetime habitat as he have the back of that
wrist flat so A twist punched with the other and radius over
each other. But the back of the wrist is is
flat in in conventional okenao and surely take karate.
(33:48):
This Soto Clive wrist is very different.
The wrist is bent, tilted upwards, and you can clearly see
that in the in, in this very famous photograph.
I don't believe this is a coincidence.
And I dive in with what I said that Finicosi Ditin sensei said
that when he was in A at a very advanced stage, seated on the
edge of his bed and unwell. And he said, ah, I think I'm
(34:12):
beginning to feel the true Suki.I believe that.
Oh, I imagine that he had changed, possibly under the
influence of the Garmin, Shigu and others, maybe even Okoyama,
to a soft punch. Not soft as in floppy or weak,
(34:35):
but as a punch with no kimmei, no halting or focus, and a punch
that that used that shotokai first.
I think that's perfectly possible.
And and for me it's the the mostsensible solution to the problem
that if you look at early pictures of Funicoshi Jitian
(34:57):
Sensei and it's contemporary, they always have that flat fist.
Although admittedly, admittedly,Yoshitek Fiona Koshi, say Fiona
Koshi, I think it's his third son, as I said earlier, does
tend to have a slightly bent wrist.
I think that may have occurred quite naturally from hitting
(35:19):
things and particularly hitting things that Westerners hit, as
in bags, padded bags, sandbags, rather than makiwara.
It's interesting, I know this from personal experience.
You can easily hit a makiwara, Astriking, A striking board, you
know, stuck into the ground and quite often padded with rice
(35:43):
straw or anything of your choosing.
You can actually hit that with your wrist flat in in the
conventional Okinawan fist configuration, the traditional
secan, but not so with a hangingbag or a boxing bag.
Hit that with the wrist flat. Whoa, you get pain in problems.
(36:07):
So that's the case. I think that maybe through
Yoshitaka, I think that some of the Schotter can had tilted
their fists up slightly. The Schotter kite tilted the
first up even further. And it's interesting that the
Schotter kite don't use a Makawara or a or a a punching
(36:31):
bag. They don't do either.
And I think these are the factors that to affect how a
style or a group will clench their fist.
On a finishing note in this section here for me, if you're
punching the solar plexus, you can afford the luxury of a
(36:54):
protruded index and middle finger.
If you're punching a hard objectlike a head or skull or then you
cannot afford that luxury. And the original C Ken of of
Shorin Ru Karate has the first the the the wrist flat and uses
(37:20):
just the top 2 knuckles. So this this what we see is a a
development. But I think that Fina Koshy's
chitin senso changed his idea and his practise in in the
latter days of his life. So in the in the original
(37:43):
function of Nihanshi, the the grappling function, you need to
have a flat fist. So you need that's taken like
shape, nice flat fist and forearm in order to ensure that
you've got that grip nice and tight.
If you bend your wrist back, youcompromise the grip and it's the
(38:07):
same if you bend your wrist too far inwards.
Do you compromise the grip? So the nice the top 2 knuckles
in line with the forearm bones. A nice flat fist is is what's
optimal for for tight gripping, which is in line with the
original function. And so it makes sense that if
(38:28):
the Nihantian Fist did inspire in some way, the the Shotoko
Fish store A1 knuckle strike is in the case of Motorboo and
things like that, they would needed of to, as Nathan's
described, change the alignment of the first with the forearm to
accommodate striking and hittingand impact and so on and so on.
(38:49):
But for gripping, certainly, andin line with the original Knight
Hanson, it needs to be a nice flat saken.
That's an excellent and important point, Tom, and well
made my essay that that it's that the flat wrist in the
Neihenchin grip when you appliedanatomically, when you've got
(39:13):
when you're gripping your partner or opponent's wrist,
when you apply the pressures that you need to, just that fist
being pushed into a straight position causes considerable
discomfort to the person you're applying the lock on.
And and without that, they have a degree of traction left to
(39:39):
them which the operative cannot afford to give because you don't
want that dozen to escape from the grid at all, because the
whole, the whole idea is to arrest them.
So Tom's completely right. The original flat wrist saikan
or fist grip of traditional Okanan karata is completely
(40:04):
correct. Grappling.
Yes, thank you, Tom. For grappling, I think that is
that is the reason to to have a cater as well, because that's
something that needs to be practised.
You know that sort of alignment and working through a range of
(40:25):
techniques and sustaining it is something that is it's useful to
practise so that the kind of utility of having a cater for
locking starts to emerge with with as that understanding of
that grappling function deepens and you can feed again.
Same with the weapons forms. You feedback your experience
(40:46):
into the solo practise and work keeping that forearm, that
alignment of the wrist and forearm, the Dahanchon fist nice
and tight with the intention that you're, that you're
locking, throwing, grappling andand so on.
Again, it's what we're trying toemphasise here is, is that the
(41:09):
fist is so important for the function and that it, it's one
of those things that needs to beexplained.
And with the antique forms, you can't ignore these things.
You can't go, well, I'm just going to completely ignored
something as obscure as the Nihantian fist and turn it into
whatever I want and, and then sell it or whatever.
(41:29):
You know, it's, I think it's, it's crucial to understand
everything. It's you can't say if I'm going
to translate this text, I'm going to skip every third word.
And because I don't fancy it or I can't explain it.
You've got to somehow arrive at a, a, a complete understanding
of what has been preserved and in the Hanshini Okinawa that
(41:53):
fist has been central to it and same in the Shotokan and it's
evolution into Shotokan and and the rest, yes.
I think it might be, might be worth pointing out the, the, the
photo that Nathan was referring to of Gichen from the Koshy
(42:15):
throwing that, that that punch with the, the two knuckles
prominent as AKA Schoetzky style.
You look at his left hand, the grip that he has on the wrist.
It's a rather good, it's a rather good demonstration of
what we've been talking about. He's got a nice straight wrist
(42:37):
and you can see that his index finger is playing a minor role
in that grip, which you know, and he's had and he's, despite
being advanced in, in years, he clearly has rather a firm grip
on that arm. Yes, he's, he's utilising, he's
(42:57):
utilising that grip and the worry that we've been
describing, he's indexing plays a minor role.
So I I find that photo is absolutely a bit more useful to
to look at the left hand actually as a reference point.
It's quite a spectacular form and function, really.
(43:17):
Yeah, and again. Looking at the context.
Yeah, looking at the grip, looking at.
The hand shape. Putting in the context of wrist
grappling, arm grappling, not frantic chaotic punching.
Dance around someone. There's no head.
(43:39):
Butting in it and there's no, there's there's no, you know,
sweeteners. You don't chin them first or, or
anything to get them into the lot.
It's it's, it's asking somethingmore of the person practising
it. It's asking to it's asking them
to develop a quite a high level of skill and the physicality
(43:59):
required to do that type of grappling really well and
efficiently without resorting. Because Nathan wrote about it
all. You know, all these books about
not resorting to a kind of extremely violent methods
because you could just as easilypunch someone in the face and
then put them in a lock that, you know, that would be a really
(44:20):
simpler way of doing it and you know, in some ways more
effective. But that's not what this method
is. Is is pointing towards.
No, because once again, there's an ethic there.
There's an ethic that's being embodied.
It's about subduing and controlling limbs so that it
doesn't escalate into something much more violent.
(44:44):
Yeah. And, and in quite a dignified
way actually, you know, you're brutalising the other person.
You're simply controlling them and preventing them from
escalating. And that for the individuals
that would have used that would have had to have been highly
(45:06):
skilled and and very fit, very strong.
And, you know, one of the top most important aspects of that
would have been their grip power.
So that's why the grip, the hand, the fist is central to No
Hanson, if you haven't got any grip power, you're not doing it
(45:26):
as simple as that. You can kind of get away with
other stuff if your stance isn'tas good or you know, it's not
that it shouldn't be, but you can get away with other things.
What you can't cheat on is the grip power.
You just won't be able to hang on to them.
So yeah, that's the Nyhanji Fist.
(45:53):
And that brings us to the end ofanother fascinating episode of
great Karate myths Debunking thelegends.
Today we explored how the uniqueNyhanji Fist is a vital clue,
pointing towards the kata's original function in grappling
and civil arrest rather than ballistic striking.
We learnt that it's peculiar shape, often overlooked, is
(46:15):
perfectly designed for a powerful controlling grip, not
punching, and that it's preservation over time is a
lucky break for understanding karate's true history.
If you enjoyed this discussion, please subscribe, leave a
review, and share this episode with fellow martial arts
enthusiasts. Thank you for listening.
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