June 3, 2025 • 37 mins
Tune in to Great Karate Myths: Debunking the Legends as we unravel the enigma of Ko-do Ryu! In this episode, co-host Nathan Johnson, the founder of Ko-do Ryu, shares its origins, tracing the name back to a conversation on a coach in Spain and its formalization between 2000 and 2004. Learn how the practice: "Ko-do To-Te", meaning "old way of China hand," alludes to the Chinese origins of the material and its focus on antique kata and pushing hands. Discover the fascinating connection to Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, and how Ko-do Ryu, much like Judo's development from Jiu-Jitsu, is a development of Chinese pushing hands and grappling. Nathan explains the innovative use of pushing hands as a form of randori for karate, enabling the application of kata techniques without prearrangement and leveraging superior contact reflexes. Tom elaborates on Ko-do Ryu's core practice, which centers on understanding the original functions of antique kata inherited from China and Nathan's creative interpretations. He highlights the group's unique approach in seeking the original intentions and cultural context of these forms, rather than solely focusing on modern self-defense applications. This includes dismissing the assumption that all antique kata were for self-defense, opening up possibilities for other functions and martial skills. Nathan also defines Ko-do Ryu's two "limbs," each with three branches:Limb One:
Limb Two:
He summarizes Ko-do Ryu's value as:
The discussion also touches on the evolution of research within the group, including Tom's extensive work on Kusanku, which he eventually unraveled as a method for disarming someone of a polearm, emphasizing restraint rather than ballistic strikes. This aligns with the philosophy of Matsumura Sokon, who emphasized "indomitable calmness" and forbidding "willful violence" in his 1882 instructions to a student. Join us to delve into the rich history and profound philosophy of Ko-do Ryu, challenging conventional karate myths and revealing deeper insights into the antique forms. Don't miss this illuminating conversation!
- Not intended for battlefield use.
- Not designed for open use against professional warriors or trained opponents, though practice with skilled partners is necessary for proficiency.
- Not intended for arena or sporting contests.
Limb Two:
- Creates holistic fitness and acts as recreation.
- Facilitates introspection, meditation, and spiritual cultivation (Standing or Moving Zen).
- Facilitates effective confidence, character, and citizen building through rigorous, ritual combative experience aimed at individual improvement.
He summarizes Ko-do Ryu's value as:
- A method of exercise and recreation.
- A method of self-discipline and spiritual training.
- A method of personal enablement and physical prowess development.
The discussion also touches on the evolution of research within the group, including Tom's extensive work on Kusanku, which he eventually unraveled as a method for disarming someone of a polearm, emphasizing restraint rather than ballistic strikes. This aligns with the philosophy of Matsumura Sokon, who emphasized "indomitable calmness" and forbidding "willful violence" in his 1882 instructions to a student. Join us to delve into the rich history and profound philosophy of Ko-do Ryu, challenging conventional karate myths and revealing deeper insights into the antique forms. Don't miss this illuminating conversation!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Great KARATEI Myths Deboking the Legends, the podcast
where we cut through the confusion and get to the
core of what karate really is. Today, we're diving deep
into a term you might have heard that perhaps don't
fully understand, cod u. What exactly is it, where did
it come from, and what does it mean for the
modern martial artist.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We'll be exploring the.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Origins and the true essence behind this unique approach to karate,
setting the stage for future discussions on its practical application.
Stick around as we unveil the story of Cordero. Welcome, gentlemen. Okay,
(00:54):
we're going to be talking about what is kadaro and
so Nathan, we're going to start with you.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Fall to me as the founder. I'm the culprit. Okay, well,
you were actually around when I mooted it. We were
on a coach and I think we were going through
YadA in Spain, our good friend Nigel's wedding and Niger's
friend who became our friend, was on the coach with
his Japanese wife. His wife was from Japan, so I
(01:23):
got the opportunity to check the pronunciation of the intended
name change of our group. It looks like cool col
They did advise me on the pronunciation, in which I
was later to able to confirm.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
With my publisher and various other people.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
But it was hinted at before the publication of Barefoot
Zen in two thousand, where I put partway through the book,
I said in brackets, you know, I really felt that
I was a practitioner of what I defined as a
bit of a mouthful for a non name to speaker.
(02:01):
The whole idea was to define the art as being
an old way, because we were looking at antique catter
and deploying them, studying them, or modified antique catter, and
so the idea was to allude to the fact that
this was pushing hands, and the catter that we were
using could be termed old way.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
And the torte.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It really was another definition of a China hand, giving
a nod, as they say, to the Chinese origin of
the material. So we had the old way of China hand,
which is a very crude way of translating it. Yeah,
the change happened between we were still Zenchurando in two thousand,
(02:49):
but between two thousand and two thousand and four.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
We became Kodorus.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
That's close, certainly by the publication of the Great Karati
myth into thousand and six. By then we were called
a view. Another connection. There are a couple of more
interesting connections with the use of cortote or coodo really
really really just refers to a sort of a roughly
but a family or a group. I'm not a native
(03:16):
Japanese speaker, but the idea or parts of the associations
with the Jigo Kano, the founder of judo, his style
or group is judo school. Judo was the soft way,
dough being way, and do being soft or fly or
however you want to interpret it, depending on the context.
(03:36):
And what Caro Jigodo did was he then referred to
his judo in terms of where it was practiced, so
that became colto can judo, so it became codacan and
that was that particular original brand of judo. And I
very much valued the idea of the caldo the old way.
(03:59):
Even though kind of Jugero's judo was actually new. It
was a translation or a development of jiu jitsu in
the same way that kaduru is a development of Chinese
pushing hands and grappling. And what I put together was
an approach that needed to express these catter was some
form of randori. So Judo has r Randori was the
(04:22):
sort of pre preparatory, the sort of shuffling around that
they do prior to going for a throw, occasionally a
lock or a takedown, and that's referred to as randory.
It's sort of Judo's version of sparring. And I elected
to I chose to use the pushing hands format as
(04:43):
a medium as a form of randori for our karate,
so it would be the medium through which we would
be able to produce the techniques and create the challenges
for things like grip escapes or applying locks and tie
ups and so on. That was the general idea, and
(05:03):
I think the boast was that we could produce a technique.
We could apply a technique from the kata from the
cattle that we used, namely the sanchin rock ashue, which
most people know as ten show. We could apply one
of the techniques exactly as it appears in the kata,
(05:25):
but without pre arranging and without having to rely on
a punch over a gap and al azuki. Another massive advantage.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Was that we could it could be.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Done in contact, which meant that we could make use
of the vastly superior contact reflexes, which are the fastest
type of reflexes arguably that we have.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So that's the background of the name.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
What is it that we do tom.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It all centers around kata and starting with the antique forms,
the forms inherited from China that have found their way
to Okinawa, and the prince of plaim of the group
was to try to find out what those forms were
originally for. And over the quarter of time that sort
of process is unfolded and different kata have been unraveled,
(06:12):
and Nathan's published his findings in his books, and you
can see that the progression of the research there as
well a lot of other work has been done as well,
which exists within the practitioners of the group, and the
two what emerged are two main approaches to kata, which
is one is to seek the original functions and the
other is creative interpretation, which we've talked about in a
(06:35):
past podcast. And so really the practice in the group
is divided between looking at the original functions of the
kata and Nathan's creatively interpreted karate. Really, which is kind
of all held together with the pushing hands So there's
sanchin rockashee pushing hands, and that's the creatively interpreted aspect,
(06:57):
and then you step into the nihanchin, which is the
lead into the original functions. And I think i've I mean,
I think we may be one of the only karate
groups in the world that.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Actually takes that approach. And I've never encountered anyone else
that stated that they're seeking the original functions of kata,
and I think that's what makes our group quite different,
is that we don't try to accumulate applications or lots
and lots of theories or layers or you know, anything
like that. What we are seeking is what was really
(07:29):
intended when these forms were put together, and what was
the culture and that they grew out of, and what
inspired their creation and things like that. So trying to
answer them or to get some idea of an answer
to those types of questions rather than what could we
do with this kta That happens in the kind of
(07:49):
creative interpretation and everythings, But in terms of the antique forms,
it's about really understanding what were they originally for. And
as I've already said, I think that's what really sets
us up. We were quite different from other karate groups.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, And I think the starting point from that is
to outright dismiss modern self defense technically, that interpretation of
self defense, to have that first rule that it's not
for that, So what is it for?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, And I think it's because it's just an assumption,
isn't it. It's an assumption that's made that that all
the cutter you know, all the antique forms were for
one one thing, and that they're all interchangeable, and they
all kind of you know, of all representations of different scenarios,
they're not there. There's lots and lots of different functions
for these forms, which and it's really interesting just to
(08:42):
even set aside, like you've just suggested, set aside self defense,
say well, what else could it be? What could I
do with the limited content of one of these forms?
What what potential does it hold really for any kind
of marshall skill or anything like that.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
And that's what we're what we're striving for.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And it takes just because of it's not like a
it takes years, years and years to do it as well.
It's not it's not been the research side of things.
I mean, it's not simply that we've rolled the dice
and Nathan discovered that Sanshin, the original sanshin was SI.
(09:21):
It's gone through many many different ideas and theories and
lots and lots of different avenues, and that's what makes
it interesting as well. And some of those things might
come up in later podcasts as well, where we talk
about experiences of following a line of inquiry with an
antique form and it being completely wrong. I know I
(09:42):
can speak to that if anyone's interested. You know, it
took me I could, just speaking from my own experience,
and then nature jumping with his I worked for a
very very long time on Ku san Ku, and for
three years I had completely I was so far off
what it was, and it was frustration that I couldn't
take that any further that it led into something else.
(10:05):
So it's a very interesting approach as well, and I
think that's what you know has kept me really really
interested in karate and kata in particular. It's so much
more interesting to pursue what could were these forms originally
intended for, rather than well what.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Can I do with them today? That's just that's my
own personal view.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
That's what you wrote in the in the Great Karate
Myth Sath and you wrote the definition of codo tote
and the limbs that it has.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I'm going to I'm going to do this accurately. A
definition of Codo tote. Codo tote has two limbs, each
with three branches. Okay, this is how I've defined it.
Limb one. Codo was not intended on more battle forward.
(10:55):
Number two. Cogo was not designed to be openly used
against the professional warrior or a trainer part However, practice
for skilled training partners is inevitably and necessary for the
development of proficiency. CODO was not intended to be used
in an arena or in a sporting contest. So that's
(11:19):
limb number one.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Limb too.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Codo creates contain's holistic fitness and acts as a form
of recreation.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Number two.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
CODO facilitates introspection, meditation and spiritual cultivation standing or moving zen.
Number three CODO facilitates effective confidence, character and citizen building
through training based on rigorous, ritual combative experience aimed at
cultivating and improving the individual and those with whom he
(11:55):
or she associates. So I would therefore summarize the value
of CODA tote classified under the following three headings. One
as a method of exercise and recreation, two as a
method of self discipline and spiritual training. Three as a
method of personal ennoblement and a way to develop and
(12:17):
maintain physical prowess. That was pretty much a definition I
still addhere to.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Well.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I think one of the benefits that comes out of
koderu karate in training in the way that you've just described, Nathan,
is that without the idea of you're preparing for any
kind of fight or anything like that. With that element removed,
it makes it into something completely different. And I think
you could only have those qualities that you've described if
(12:47):
you're not training for a preparing for a fight. I
think if you start preparing for fights or self defense,
then you can kind of throw out the.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
Lot of that.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
LO confouch for that. I first divided when it was
channedl Wing Chun. I was just so relieved. It was
completely not not about the combat thing, the fighting thing
it was. It was just totally refreshing to do something
completely different. And Yeah, I thought it was just completely different.
I've never encountered anything like that, so that's why I
start with it.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, Cape, you you've been involved with the group since
it was Chandau come from.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, it was nineteen nineteen. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
The idea has always been the same. The names changed,
the idea and the concept and the ethos and the
philosophy has always been the same. That hasn't changed.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's consistent. That's totally. Yeah, that's good luck. I remember
Nathan working out my hands. You remember that seeing that
in I think of I think as Suthampton you were
doing that early early nineties. Yeah, I remember that as well,
and just yeah, putting that together. That's quite tricky, the
inter to deconstruct a carter that's taught us a defense
(13:58):
against multiple attackers when and it clearly isn't. It's like wow, yeah,
well that research changed as we learned more. Actually we
made a transition from gungfu to karate from so was
that for the net for the next one. I remember
being roundly criticized in the early I don't found about
(14:20):
two thousand and six, but by people writing things like
Johnson's now decided everything's about weapons, you know, can'ty make
up his mind? So my first book was called Zen
Shaolin Karate. It was published by Charles E. Tuttle in Tokyo.
It's got a prestigeous company. But Conseil was excited by
(14:41):
the cover or by the title choice, because I wanted
Zen Schorindo. I did not want Zen Shaolin Karati because
I felt that Shaolin and Karate was a mismatch. I
wanted Zen Schorindo. But the publisher didn't think that people
would understand get you know what that was, so that
chose to use the title Chaolin. If I look at
(15:03):
that book, which was published in nineteen ninety four, I
believe certainly by two thousand we developed so much during
that period of time that the two thousand book Barefoot Zen,
which was published by Samuel Weisser, had a lot of
the new material, and we developed more. We like any
(15:25):
human being, as you change as you learn more. But
we had empirical evidence for the functions of the kata,
something that still continues to this day. So Tom he's continued,
he's now he's worked with Chinto and kushen Ku and Basai,
and I believe he's got got those And once again,
as he just said earlier, he worked for it in
(15:47):
three years and then had to go back to.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
The drawing board. Revise it all.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
You know, You know, the thing is that is how
any kind of research progresses. And obviously as you learn
more than any publications you make, are going to demonstrate
that the increase in knowledge. And again I repeat the
evidence that we have is empirical. It can be seen
in the kata. And I just say one more thing here.
(16:14):
We were also accused of zelotry, of being zelots and
big claim makers, that we made big claims.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Who do these.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
People think they are? But they think they know what
the Japanese don't know. Well, I don't want to say
anything negative about Japanese carate. It's but in my own lifetime,
if I now look at apart from the discoveries which
we've got, which which are accurate in my lifetime, the
standard Nihanchin or the application came through the Shotaken school,
(16:43):
the Japanese Shotaken school in which the Unicosti kitchen sense
the founder of Shottaken, or rather he's the one who
is students named the style laughter. He changed the name
from Nihanchin to Techi, one of his students who the
then chief instructor of the Karate Association with the infamous
JK out of Tokyo and the global called I think
(17:06):
Best Karate. He published sort of all of the show
token kata, and he published that the JKA did for applications,
and they're discredited now, but they were the standard where
nihantim was used to block and counter multiple opponents on
a gap, strangely moving sort of only left and right.
(17:29):
It's quite strange to watch. You don't see it very
often these days, but the Google search will probably throw
it up for you. If you look at Best Karate
or Nagamine shosinet Oh, look for the nineteen eight Pen
Karate Association applications of techi kata, you'll find them.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Those have been.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Lastly discredited now and everybody moved on to other things.
And I certainly was in the early days of that,
and people who are they tried pressure points and well
try and justify night Hanchen in many many different ways,
and one or two of our quotes. Competitors partially accepted
our view that it was grappling, but then didn't understand
(18:10):
the secre nature of it, or how a catter unfolded,
or actually basically what it was for. So you know,
they take a move and say, well, this looks like
a headlock. So, okay, we agree with Johnson et al.
That it's grappling, but I think this bit here is
a headlock, and this bit here is a kick to
the kneecap and so on. But it moved from the
(18:32):
received idea of block strike with some very strange looking
strikes to people beginning to accept that that wasn't what
it was for. And it's moved radically in so let's
give this a timeline. So it's moved really radically since
(18:52):
about nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
It's really moved.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
And we're no longer seen as being completely out there,
and more people are accepting.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
What we've done.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And on the final thing, we recalled zealous because detractors
just wanted to say, why are you insisting that your
version is the version you know as though you're actually
that's an unholy thing to think. It's arrogant and egotistical.
You know you and only you have the true version.
We know that people just have versions. Who do you
(19:25):
think you are? You kodaroo? People you're claiming to know
what your canoans aren't telling us.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
It's interesting that you said that's it all sort of
opened up after nineteen ninety five clearly after you published
said Chui karate and said it's grappling, and you opened
it up for interrogation and creative interpretation by doing that.
But they still had as we said this, as I
(19:54):
mentioned earlier, that bias of self defense. If you can't
let go of that element, you can't get it. You
can't get punch, block, kick out of your headspace, You're
not going to get this.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I think it was deeper example, the Night Hanshan research.
If there was other groups that were pursuing it, and
they had found something that was more accurate or better,
or had a greater body of evidence, it wouldn't have
been the case that we would have gone, well, we're
doing this now there you know, we would have gone
with it. You know, the evidence leads, not what we
(20:31):
want or what our personal tastes. I mean, you know
there are other people out there said that other people aren't.
I haven't come across and anyone pursuing the original functions
of the kata, but I have found a couple of
other people in different martial arts doing similar things, and
one of them just very briefly mentioning this is about Coderu.
But is a guy called Scott Park Phillips, who has
(20:53):
researched the origins of tai Chi and barguis and a
massive body of evidence in historyracle theater and spiritual mediumship
and religious practice as part of that theater as well.
His books are quite unbelievable and they're really really interesting,
(21:14):
and that I think you sort of recognize that someone's
going after the original meaning.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
There aren't any.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Claims that we are the holders of truth or anything
like that. It's that there's this massive body of research,
in a lot of time spent on it, which is
available for anyone to come and have a look at,
to read the books, or come to the dojo. Keyboard
warriors you know who like to say, well I just
don't buy it, or that would never work, you know,
carry on, you know. But I think the reason for
(21:41):
this podcast is to kind of build bridges for people
that share similar interest.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
What could these kata be not you know, anything to do.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
With ego or we've got answers or you know in
the greater sense or anything like that. It's a shared
passion for a kata for antique forms which are quite
Niche really yes, a keyboard worried that's interesting. We've got
a lot of critics, particularly around two thousand and six
(22:13):
when the myth came out. People didn't understand that I worked,
you know, to write.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Four hundred odd pages. Nobody was paying me the amount
of time rate to it.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
People just think, I'm you know, what was I doing?
Just trying to sell something. I'm not sure if I
could sell water in the desert. Quite frankly, I've never
been much of a salesman. I just had a passion
that that's the passion we all share Tom. It just
came out in Tom. Then you know these catorties we
loved for years, that they are something very special and
(22:49):
they have not had full justice done to them, and
we've tried to do that. So the reason for writing
the book was the passion was we've got something here.
What we wanted to do, as well within as a training,
as a as a practice, was to create I'm not
into internationalism, but we wanted to create something that transcended
(23:09):
all the cultural stuff. We decided to keep it within
a karative framework because that's such a good functional framework
with a grading system and a uniform. But you know,
we didn't need to.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
But we really reinvented what use the wheeler has put
to and that marked us out. And I don't know
if you want to share anything on one of your
personal pieces of work, Yeah, which one should I? So
the kushang Ku I pursued after you published the Great
Kuiti myth, so that there was a suggestion that it
(23:47):
might have been after the use of sai, because there
wasn't We couldn't find a representation of si against the
poll arm, and it seemed to be the case.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
That the kusan cru might hold it.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
So I spent quite a few years looking at kusang
ku and I couldn't get it seemed to fit. And
there was a couple of teachers in Okinawa that had
suggested that kusang ku could be performed with the si,
So there might have been a little bit of an
oral history there that had been passed on. So there's
(24:18):
bits and sort of bits and pieces there. But in
the end it became incredibly frustrating, and it became easier
to demonstrate the movements without holding the sigh and to
grip the bow with my hands.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
That someone was hurt. And so what.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Eventually became the turning point was there's a there's a
movement where you drop down and you're sitting almost on
one knee with one leg out, the other leg out
straight back. In the sort of mid two thousand, Shinier
and I were doing some Brazilian jiu jitsu and there's
a really nasty pin called me on the belly in there,
(24:53):
and it just seemed to fit perfectly, and that really
opened up the kusang ku, and as I unraveled it,
I realized it was a way of taking a pole
arm from someone. You're taking someone's weapon from them, and
so it's essentially twisting it out of their hands. You
kick to the legs, you might strike the limbs, or
you barge them off of it, but.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
It's just it's a map, really.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
So if you imagine a person standing in front of
you holding a bow parallel depending on where you are
where you make contact and grab the bow, you've got
this map of techniques to just get it out of
their hands, basically, And that's and that kind of led
onto looking at other cato. I found something similar in passi,
but passe i was holding onto your bow, so it
(25:39):
became almost the counter movements too. If someone tries to
take your poll arm from you, how do you twist
them off of it and arrive in a position where
you could then use it afterwards. And so there's a
major that there's some real core different some similarities, but
some core differences there, and that's how that kind of
unraveled as well. But again, I don't expect anyone to
believe me. What I hope is that people come and
(26:01):
look at it and critique it and experience it and
enjoy it, and that's about it.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
But I'm certainly not looking to make any money or
get any accolade or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
So Tom, Yeah, earlier I did say we you know,
were moved away from talking about punch kick Yeah, yeah,
but you did mention just then, Yeah, striking kicking, Yeah,
So how are we sort of playing one thing?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
It's not that the kicking and punching are the function
of the film. It's that the fundamental function of kushan Kou,
for example, is to take someone's weapon from them, a
poll on, and it has kicks and several strikes in
it that unable that function. So it's not that I'm
saying that Kush and Kous is a way of ballistically
(26:57):
exchanging kicks and track blows with someone. I'm not saying
that at all. The fundamental function is to grab the
weapon and get it out of their hands, and sometimes
you might use a kick or a barge or an
elbow or something like that just to enable that function.
So we don't use that in our own karate practice,
(27:18):
but it's just something that's there in the antique kata.
So there are certain there are obviously kicks. They're all
my gary, there's nothing else, And it only appears a
few times across the body of antique ROMs and Nathan's
even counted that and put those numbers in his book,
so that's well documented already. But yeah, it's it's very
(27:38):
very different from saying that it's a ballistic exchange or
for self defense or anything like that. And I just
add one last point. I wouldn't say that you could
then take those kick, strikes and barges and then apply
them in a fight or in another way. They very
much exist within the kush and ku method of disarming
someone taking a poll arm from someone, they don't have
(28:01):
a life outside of that.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
You couldn't take them.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
Into sparring or free fighting or anything like that.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
So yeah, does that kind of thing that answers.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, yeah, makes a lot of sense that being the
thing and king to get it, to get them to
to get hold of their weapon. Yeah. Well, if you
see it, whenever you end up in a situation where
you're kind of tussling or struggling with them, it's going
to be the stronger person is going to win straight away.
(28:29):
So you immediately stack the odds in your favor by
kicking them in the inside of the thigh or the knee,
not with not again, not with the intention of ruining
their leg or anything like that, but just to get
the weapon out of their hands. And that is it
seems to be the case that it's in a civil
arrest context. So I would argue that because where those
strikes are placed, it speaks to something within that context
(28:54):
of civil arrest. If it was for you know, no
holds barred combat or skirmishing or whatever, you could just
you know, strike them in the face straight away that
was what you would do, or kick them in the
grond or those strikes would go to far more vulnerable
areas rather than something that is has.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Restraint in it as part of the method.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
You see that in the putting the police today that
sort of same same sort.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, they can use they can use their batons on
the legs and the arms and things that they can't
just go and clock someone across the jaw and take
out a dozen teeth. Yeah, might be timely to give
a little quote. One of the luminaries Matamorasokon in one
(29:43):
hundred and nine to nineteen hundred and one, and he
was the author of the Makimono scroll within that he
went to Fudo in China twice as an envoy for
the Riku Kingdom, which shows an association between the Ruku
Ruku and Royalty and the He's catter, particularly the so
called Shuley Taylor and r.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Yeah, he is an exit.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
One of his written instructions to a student this was
a eighteen eighty two in which he says, an indomitable
calmness makes subjugating an adversary effortless. Yet the proper methods
forbid willful violence.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Yeah, on the whole.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
And that's the connection with the Ruque court, because we
are pretty much you know, a lot of his material
it can be loosely and has been called palace hand
And so I probably could to make a public apology
to Tom now, but it's my fault that he spent
three years trying to work out Kuskus a ssidecatter because
because I suggested that it was. And I'm not really
(30:51):
too unhappy. In the myth there are pictures of me
applying some sample moments from kishen Ku with a SI,
and I'm not unhappy that they're in there, because it's
a bit like a student in an exam showing his
working out. And sometimes even if you got the answer wrong,
as everyone knows, it's you know, in various exams, particularly maths,
(31:14):
you get you get marks for showing you working out,
showing how you arrived at the conclusions. So I very
much see any sort of chink in the armor of
the of the myth book or eras it's just showing
the working out, because ultimately we've got there. Tom's got there.
But it also firms things up because it also shows
(31:36):
why the sye work really can be found in the nawaichi.
That's where you because the whole system around the side,
and that's much more policing I think in the public
or in specific circumstances, whereas I think a lot of
the the seryktter the passais around I think the palace. Yeah,
(32:01):
I think what the quote that you gave from matsumurasokon
that that that approach and that kind of little piece
of philosophy there or ethic is embodied in the catter
as well. So what we were talking about with kusan
Ku that that that restraint there, having some restraint, having
some measure in how you go about business is reflected
(32:22):
in those techniques. Otherwise you could just go berserk, couldn't
you pick the weapon up off the floor at the end,
and so there's no flailing in.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
Yeah, I really like that. It's a great quote.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
That's a great yeah, And it speaks to what was
going on in the in the palace and those those
forms being representations of that and you know, that embodied restraint.
Anything you want to add, keV, I was only thinking
about what I've seen the Christmas suns in the police.
So I've seen he's showed me how they arrest people,
and it's not dissimilar to some of the Codo's tough
(32:55):
in some ways. Well, it's quite fascinating. Yeah, there's no
there's no punching people in the face. No, it's not
that so be fair easier to arrest people, and that
if he could some stories, I couldn't do that job.
That's all good, I mean very It's very impressive of
research that's going into it, and the weapons stuff and
(33:17):
the bushing hands stuff, superb.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
This practice isn't that dissimilar to what we had where
we were practicing, zenra beffort Zen.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
I think there's going to be a lot more to
say about that as well.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
So I think that.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
He briefly when we do the tai Chi one.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I've got an idea for that when we do the
tire Chi episode, and it would be a really good
way to present that little bit of Chinese history and
the importance of the Boxer Rebellion, how it completely changed
the face of martial arts in China.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
That the culture.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
That exists there now started at the end of the
Boxer Rebellion, is so completely different from the culture that
these forms were born into and what was going on
in daily life there. It's going to be a really
great way to kind of get into that and to
bring out the people have their very very secular view
of kata. So there's this idea that just that the
(34:17):
antique forms are just one thing, and that it's a
very they're not separate from the you know, spiritual and
cultural traditions and practices of their time as well, which
is going to be so to talk about ty Chi
would be a useful inroad to that because still exploring
those ideas with the antique Cata myself, and it's a
(34:39):
nice way to tie in the befort Zen and we
and we can talk about choolin as well. We can
do I think there's a great potential to do an
episode on Chaolin. It's got plenty to say about that.
Do you know the first the first documented mention of
an unarmed martial art at Chaolinn was the Eight Drunk
(35:00):
Immortals form and it was taken directly from Chinese opera. Yeah,
the Shaolin monastery and then Buddhist monasteries had their own
theaters built in to the temples, so their first mention
of an unarmed form empty hand combat is stage combat.
(35:21):
So we've got there's loads of like really juicy stuff
in there, and that's.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
What it's still popular.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, well, I mean watch Jackie Chan do the Eight
Drunk Immortals form. It's absolutely unbelievable. I mean, that's what
they were doing on the stage. I mean, you can't
help but be when you see someone do that in
front of you, it's it's unbelievable. So yeah, plenty to
say on that stuff.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
I could talk about it. Well even now I won't
because we will sign up.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Thanks Tom. Okay, that's all the time we have jents.
So today we've discussed the meaning of Coderoo, its origins,
and touched on the research side. In a future episode,
we will explore the everyday practice we promote how its
ethos is similar to when the group was called Chan
Dao kung fu or Zenshorindo Karate. This practice remains true
(36:08):
to the intentions of Nathan's Barefoot Send publication. They're not
claiming ours is the best or only way to practice
and apply karate kata for the modern consumer. Just as
modern karate styles have creatively interpreted anti kata for conditioning, competition, fighting, dueling,
and defense, with the exception of Nihanchin Todorou's practice of
(36:30):
cood Do Tote, is Nathan's creative interpretation of antique kata
rooted in the philosophy and spiritual culture to divide and
transcend internal conflict. Thank you for listening to great karatei
myths debunking legends. If you've enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, follow,
or eave a comment to help keep the Dojo lights on.
(36:52):
Thank you,
Welcome to Great KARATEI Myths Deboking the Legends, the podcast
where we cut through the confusion and get to the
core of what karate really is. Today, we're diving deep
into a term you might have heard that perhaps don't
fully understand, cod u. What exactly is it, where did
it come from, and what does it mean for the
modern martial artist.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We'll be exploring the.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Origins and the true essence behind this unique approach to karate,
setting the stage for future discussions on its practical application.
Stick around as we unveil the story of Cordero. Welcome, gentlemen. Okay,
(00:54):
we're going to be talking about what is kadaro and
so Nathan, we're going to start with you.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Fall to me as the founder. I'm the culprit. Okay, well,
you were actually around when I mooted it. We were
on a coach and I think we were going through
YadA in Spain, our good friend Nigel's wedding and Niger's
friend who became our friend, was on the coach with
his Japanese wife. His wife was from Japan, so I
(01:23):
got the opportunity to check the pronunciation of the intended
name change of our group. It looks like cool col
They did advise me on the pronunciation, in which I
was later to able to confirm.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
With my publisher and various other people.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
But it was hinted at before the publication of Barefoot
Zen in two thousand, where I put partway through the book,
I said in brackets, you know, I really felt that
I was a practitioner of what I defined as a
bit of a mouthful for a non name to speaker.
(02:01):
The whole idea was to define the art as being
an old way, because we were looking at antique catter
and deploying them, studying them, or modified antique catter, and
so the idea was to allude to the fact that
this was pushing hands, and the catter that we were
using could be termed old way.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
And the torte.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It really was another definition of a China hand, giving
a nod, as they say, to the Chinese origin of
the material. So we had the old way of China hand,
which is a very crude way of translating it. Yeah,
the change happened between we were still Zenchurando in two thousand,
(02:49):
but between two thousand and two thousand and four.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
We became Kodorus.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
That's close, certainly by the publication of the Great Karati
myth into thousand and six. By then we were called
a view. Another connection. There are a couple of more
interesting connections with the use of cortote or coodo really
really really just refers to a sort of a roughly
but a family or a group. I'm not a native
(03:16):
Japanese speaker, but the idea or parts of the associations
with the Jigo Kano, the founder of judo, his style
or group is judo school. Judo was the soft way,
dough being way, and do being soft or fly or
however you want to interpret it, depending on the context.
(03:36):
And what Caro Jigodo did was he then referred to
his judo in terms of where it was practiced, so
that became colto can judo, so it became codacan and
that was that particular original brand of judo. And I
very much valued the idea of the caldo the old way.
(03:59):
Even though kind of Jugero's judo was actually new. It
was a translation or a development of jiu jitsu in
the same way that kaduru is a development of Chinese
pushing hands and grappling. And what I put together was
an approach that needed to express these catter was some
form of randori. So Judo has r Randori was the
(04:22):
sort of pre preparatory, the sort of shuffling around that
they do prior to going for a throw, occasionally a
lock or a takedown, and that's referred to as randory.
It's sort of Judo's version of sparring. And I elected
to I chose to use the pushing hands format as
(04:43):
a medium as a form of randori for our karate,
so it would be the medium through which we would
be able to produce the techniques and create the challenges
for things like grip escapes or applying locks and tie
ups and so on. That was the general idea, and
(05:03):
I think the boast was that we could produce a technique.
We could apply a technique from the kata from the
cattle that we used, namely the sanchin rock ashue, which
most people know as ten show. We could apply one
of the techniques exactly as it appears in the kata,
(05:25):
but without pre arranging and without having to rely on
a punch over a gap and al azuki. Another massive advantage.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Was that we could it could be.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Done in contact, which meant that we could make use
of the vastly superior contact reflexes, which are the fastest
type of reflexes arguably that we have.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So that's the background of the name.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
What is it that we do tom.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It all centers around kata and starting with the antique forms,
the forms inherited from China that have found their way
to Okinawa, and the prince of plaim of the group
was to try to find out what those forms were
originally for. And over the quarter of time that sort
of process is unfolded and different kata have been unraveled,
(06:12):
and Nathan's published his findings in his books, and you
can see that the progression of the research there as
well a lot of other work has been done as well,
which exists within the practitioners of the group, and the
two what emerged are two main approaches to kata, which
is one is to seek the original functions and the
other is creative interpretation, which we've talked about in a
(06:35):
past podcast. And so really the practice in the group
is divided between looking at the original functions of the
kata and Nathan's creatively interpreted karate. Really, which is kind
of all held together with the pushing hands So there's
sanchin rockashee pushing hands, and that's the creatively interpreted aspect,
(06:57):
and then you step into the nihanchin, which is the
lead into the original functions. And I think i've I mean,
I think we may be one of the only karate
groups in the world that.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Actually takes that approach. And I've never encountered anyone else
that stated that they're seeking the original functions of kata,
and I think that's what makes our group quite different,
is that we don't try to accumulate applications or lots
and lots of theories or layers or you know, anything
like that. What we are seeking is what was really
(07:29):
intended when these forms were put together, and what was
the culture and that they grew out of, and what
inspired their creation and things like that. So trying to
answer them or to get some idea of an answer
to those types of questions rather than what could we
do with this kta That happens in the kind of
(07:49):
creative interpretation and everythings, But in terms of the antique forms,
it's about really understanding what were they originally for. And
as I've already said, I think that's what really sets
us up. We were quite different from other karate groups.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, And I think the starting point from that is
to outright dismiss modern self defense technically, that interpretation of
self defense, to have that first rule that it's not
for that, So what is it for?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, And I think it's because it's just an assumption,
isn't it. It's an assumption that's made that that all
the cutter you know, all the antique forms were for
one one thing, and that they're all interchangeable, and they
all kind of you know, of all representations of different scenarios,
they're not there. There's lots and lots of different functions
for these forms, which and it's really interesting just to
(08:42):
even set aside, like you've just suggested, set aside self defense,
say well, what else could it be? What could I
do with the limited content of one of these forms?
What what potential does it hold really for any kind
of marshall skill or anything like that.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
And that's what we're what we're striving for.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And it takes just because of it's not like a
it takes years, years and years to do it as well.
It's not it's not been the research side of things.
I mean, it's not simply that we've rolled the dice
and Nathan discovered that Sanshin, the original sanshin was SI.
(09:21):
It's gone through many many different ideas and theories and
lots and lots of different avenues, and that's what makes
it interesting as well. And some of those things might
come up in later podcasts as well, where we talk
about experiences of following a line of inquiry with an
antique form and it being completely wrong. I know I
(09:42):
can speak to that if anyone's interested. You know, it
took me I could, just speaking from my own experience,
and then nature jumping with his I worked for a
very very long time on Ku san Ku, and for
three years I had completely I was so far off
what it was, and it was frustration that I couldn't
take that any further that it led into something else.
(10:05):
So it's a very interesting approach as well, and I
think that's what you know has kept me really really
interested in karate and kata in particular. It's so much
more interesting to pursue what could were these forms originally
intended for, rather than well what.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Can I do with them today? That's just that's my
own personal view.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
That's what you wrote in the in the Great Karate
Myth Sath and you wrote the definition of codo tote
and the limbs that it has.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I'm going to I'm going to do this accurately. A
definition of Codo tote. Codo tote has two limbs, each
with three branches. Okay, this is how I've defined it.
Limb one. Codo was not intended on more battle forward.
(10:55):
Number two. Cogo was not designed to be openly used
against the professional warrior or a trainer part However, practice
for skilled training partners is inevitably and necessary for the
development of proficiency. CODO was not intended to be used
in an arena or in a sporting contest. So that's
(11:19):
limb number one.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Limb too.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Codo creates contain's holistic fitness and acts as a form
of recreation.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Number two.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
CODO facilitates introspection, meditation and spiritual cultivation standing or moving zen.
Number three CODO facilitates effective confidence, character and citizen building
through training based on rigorous, ritual combative experience aimed at
cultivating and improving the individual and those with whom he
(11:55):
or she associates. So I would therefore summarize the value
of CODA tote classified under the following three headings. One
as a method of exercise and recreation, two as a
method of self discipline and spiritual training. Three as a
method of personal ennoblement and a way to develop and
(12:17):
maintain physical prowess. That was pretty much a definition I
still addhere to.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Well.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I think one of the benefits that comes out of
koderu karate in training in the way that you've just described, Nathan,
is that without the idea of you're preparing for any
kind of fight or anything like that. With that element removed,
it makes it into something completely different. And I think
you could only have those qualities that you've described if
(12:47):
you're not training for a preparing for a fight. I
think if you start preparing for fights or self defense,
then you can kind of throw out the.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
Lot of that.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
LO confouch for that. I first divided when it was
channedl Wing Chun. I was just so relieved. It was
completely not not about the combat thing, the fighting thing
it was. It was just totally refreshing to do something
completely different. And Yeah, I thought it was just completely different.
I've never encountered anything like that, so that's why I
start with it.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, Cape, you you've been involved with the group since
it was Chandau come from.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, it was nineteen nineteen. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
The idea has always been the same. The names changed,
the idea and the concept and the ethos and the
philosophy has always been the same. That hasn't changed.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's consistent. That's totally. Yeah, that's good luck. I remember
Nathan working out my hands. You remember that seeing that
in I think of I think as Suthampton you were
doing that early early nineties. Yeah, I remember that as well,
and just yeah, putting that together. That's quite tricky, the
inter to deconstruct a carter that's taught us a defense
(13:58):
against multiple attackers when and it clearly isn't. It's like wow, yeah,
well that research changed as we learned more. Actually we
made a transition from gungfu to karate from so was
that for the net for the next one. I remember
being roundly criticized in the early I don't found about
(14:20):
two thousand and six, but by people writing things like
Johnson's now decided everything's about weapons, you know, can'ty make
up his mind? So my first book was called Zen
Shaolin Karate. It was published by Charles E. Tuttle in Tokyo.
It's got a prestigeous company. But Conseil was excited by
(14:41):
the cover or by the title choice, because I wanted
Zen Schorindo. I did not want Zen Shaolin Karati because
I felt that Shaolin and Karate was a mismatch. I
wanted Zen Schorindo. But the publisher didn't think that people
would understand get you know what that was, so that
chose to use the title Chaolin. If I look at
(15:03):
that book, which was published in nineteen ninety four, I
believe certainly by two thousand we developed so much during
that period of time that the two thousand book Barefoot Zen,
which was published by Samuel Weisser, had a lot of
the new material, and we developed more. We like any
(15:25):
human being, as you change as you learn more. But
we had empirical evidence for the functions of the kata,
something that still continues to this day. So Tom he's continued,
he's now he's worked with Chinto and kushen Ku and Basai,
and I believe he's got got those And once again,
as he just said earlier, he worked for it in
(15:47):
three years and then had to go back to.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
The drawing board. Revise it all.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
You know, You know, the thing is that is how
any kind of research progresses. And obviously as you learn
more than any publications you make, are going to demonstrate
that the increase in knowledge. And again I repeat the
evidence that we have is empirical. It can be seen
in the kata. And I just say one more thing here.
(16:14):
We were also accused of zelotry, of being zelots and
big claim makers, that we made big claims.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Who do these.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
People think they are? But they think they know what
the Japanese don't know. Well, I don't want to say
anything negative about Japanese carate. It's but in my own lifetime,
if I now look at apart from the discoveries which
we've got, which which are accurate in my lifetime, the
standard Nihanchin or the application came through the Shotaken school,
(16:43):
the Japanese Shotaken school in which the Unicosti kitchen sense
the founder of Shottaken, or rather he's the one who
is students named the style laughter. He changed the name
from Nihanchin to Techi, one of his students who the
then chief instructor of the Karate Association with the infamous
JK out of Tokyo and the global called I think
(17:06):
Best Karate. He published sort of all of the show
token kata, and he published that the JKA did for applications,
and they're discredited now, but they were the standard where
nihantim was used to block and counter multiple opponents on
a gap, strangely moving sort of only left and right.
(17:29):
It's quite strange to watch. You don't see it very
often these days, but the Google search will probably throw
it up for you. If you look at Best Karate
or Nagamine shosinet Oh, look for the nineteen eight Pen
Karate Association applications of techi kata, you'll find them.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Those have been.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Lastly discredited now and everybody moved on to other things.
And I certainly was in the early days of that,
and people who are they tried pressure points and well
try and justify night Hanchen in many many different ways,
and one or two of our quotes. Competitors partially accepted
our view that it was grappling, but then didn't understand
(18:10):
the secre nature of it, or how a catter unfolded,
or actually basically what it was for. So you know,
they take a move and say, well, this looks like
a headlock. So, okay, we agree with Johnson et al.
That it's grappling, but I think this bit here is
a headlock, and this bit here is a kick to
the kneecap and so on. But it moved from the
(18:32):
received idea of block strike with some very strange looking
strikes to people beginning to accept that that wasn't what
it was for. And it's moved radically in so let's
give this a timeline. So it's moved really radically since
(18:52):
about nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
It's really moved.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
And we're no longer seen as being completely out there,
and more people are accepting.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
What we've done.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And on the final thing, we recalled zealous because detractors
just wanted to say, why are you insisting that your
version is the version you know as though you're actually
that's an unholy thing to think. It's arrogant and egotistical.
You know you and only you have the true version.
We know that people just have versions. Who do you
(19:25):
think you are? You kodaroo? People you're claiming to know
what your canoans aren't telling us.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
It's interesting that you said that's it all sort of
opened up after nineteen ninety five clearly after you published
said Chui karate and said it's grappling, and you opened
it up for interrogation and creative interpretation by doing that.
But they still had as we said this, as I
(19:54):
mentioned earlier, that bias of self defense. If you can't
let go of that element, you can't get it. You
can't get punch, block, kick out of your headspace, You're
not going to get this.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I think it was deeper example, the Night Hanshan research.
If there was other groups that were pursuing it, and
they had found something that was more accurate or better,
or had a greater body of evidence, it wouldn't have
been the case that we would have gone, well, we're
doing this now there you know, we would have gone
with it. You know, the evidence leads, not what we
(20:31):
want or what our personal tastes. I mean, you know
there are other people out there said that other people aren't.
I haven't come across and anyone pursuing the original functions
of the kata, but I have found a couple of
other people in different martial arts doing similar things, and
one of them just very briefly mentioning this is about Coderu.
But is a guy called Scott Park Phillips, who has
(20:53):
researched the origins of tai Chi and barguis and a
massive body of evidence in historyracle theater and spiritual mediumship
and religious practice as part of that theater as well.
His books are quite unbelievable and they're really really interesting,
(21:14):
and that I think you sort of recognize that someone's
going after the original meaning.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
There aren't any.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Claims that we are the holders of truth or anything
like that. It's that there's this massive body of research,
in a lot of time spent on it, which is
available for anyone to come and have a look at,
to read the books, or come to the dojo. Keyboard
warriors you know who like to say, well I just
don't buy it, or that would never work, you know,
carry on, you know. But I think the reason for
(21:41):
this podcast is to kind of build bridges for people
that share similar interest.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
What could these kata be not you know, anything to do.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
With ego or we've got answers or you know in
the greater sense or anything like that. It's a shared
passion for a kata for antique forms which are quite
Niche really yes, a keyboard worried that's interesting. We've got
a lot of critics, particularly around two thousand and six
(22:13):
when the myth came out. People didn't understand that I worked,
you know, to write.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Four hundred odd pages. Nobody was paying me the amount
of time rate to it.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
People just think, I'm you know, what was I doing?
Just trying to sell something. I'm not sure if I
could sell water in the desert. Quite frankly, I've never
been much of a salesman. I just had a passion
that that's the passion we all share Tom. It just
came out in Tom. Then you know these catorties we
loved for years, that they are something very special and
(22:49):
they have not had full justice done to them, and
we've tried to do that. So the reason for writing
the book was the passion was we've got something here.
What we wanted to do, as well within as a training,
as a as a practice, was to create I'm not
into internationalism, but we wanted to create something that transcended
(23:09):
all the cultural stuff. We decided to keep it within
a karative framework because that's such a good functional framework
with a grading system and a uniform. But you know,
we didn't need to.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
But we really reinvented what use the wheeler has put
to and that marked us out. And I don't know
if you want to share anything on one of your
personal pieces of work, Yeah, which one should I? So
the kushang Ku I pursued after you published the Great
Kuiti myth, so that there was a suggestion that it
(23:47):
might have been after the use of sai, because there
wasn't We couldn't find a representation of si against the
poll arm, and it seemed to be the case.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
That the kusan cru might hold it.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
So I spent quite a few years looking at kusang
ku and I couldn't get it seemed to fit. And
there was a couple of teachers in Okinawa that had
suggested that kusang ku could be performed with the si,
So there might have been a little bit of an
oral history there that had been passed on. So there's
(24:18):
bits and sort of bits and pieces there. But in
the end it became incredibly frustrating, and it became easier
to demonstrate the movements without holding the sigh and to
grip the bow with my hands.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
That someone was hurt. And so what.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Eventually became the turning point was there's a there's a
movement where you drop down and you're sitting almost on
one knee with one leg out, the other leg out
straight back. In the sort of mid two thousand, Shinier
and I were doing some Brazilian jiu jitsu and there's
a really nasty pin called me on the belly in there,
(24:53):
and it just seemed to fit perfectly, and that really
opened up the kusang ku, and as I unraveled it,
I realized it was a way of taking a pole
arm from someone. You're taking someone's weapon from them, and
so it's essentially twisting it out of their hands. You
kick to the legs, you might strike the limbs, or
you barge them off of it, but.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
It's just it's a map, really.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
So if you imagine a person standing in front of
you holding a bow parallel depending on where you are
where you make contact and grab the bow, you've got
this map of techniques to just get it out of
their hands, basically, And that's and that kind of led
onto looking at other cato. I found something similar in passi,
but passe i was holding onto your bow, so it
(25:39):
became almost the counter movements too. If someone tries to
take your poll arm from you, how do you twist
them off of it and arrive in a position where
you could then use it afterwards. And so there's a
major that there's some real core different some similarities, but
some core differences there, and that's how that kind of
unraveled as well. But again, I don't expect anyone to
believe me. What I hope is that people come and
(26:01):
look at it and critique it and experience it and
enjoy it, and that's about it.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
But I'm certainly not looking to make any money or
get any accolade or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
So Tom, Yeah, earlier I did say we you know,
were moved away from talking about punch kick Yeah, yeah,
but you did mention just then, Yeah, striking kicking, Yeah,
So how are we sort of playing one thing?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
It's not that the kicking and punching are the function
of the film. It's that the fundamental function of kushan Kou,
for example, is to take someone's weapon from them, a
poll on, and it has kicks and several strikes in
it that unable that function. So it's not that I'm
saying that Kush and Kous is a way of ballistically
(26:57):
exchanging kicks and track blows with someone. I'm not saying
that at all. The fundamental function is to grab the
weapon and get it out of their hands, and sometimes
you might use a kick or a barge or an
elbow or something like that just to enable that function.
So we don't use that in our own karate practice,
(27:18):
but it's just something that's there in the antique kata.
So there are certain there are obviously kicks. They're all
my gary, there's nothing else, And it only appears a
few times across the body of antique ROMs and Nathan's
even counted that and put those numbers in his book,
so that's well documented already. But yeah, it's it's very
(27:38):
very different from saying that it's a ballistic exchange or
for self defense or anything like that. And I just
add one last point. I wouldn't say that you could
then take those kick, strikes and barges and then apply
them in a fight or in another way. They very
much exist within the kush and ku method of disarming
someone taking a poll arm from someone, they don't have
(28:01):
a life outside of that.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
You couldn't take them.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
Into sparring or free fighting or anything like that.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
So yeah, does that kind of thing that answers.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, yeah, makes a lot of sense that being the
thing and king to get it, to get them to
to get hold of their weapon. Yeah. Well, if you
see it, whenever you end up in a situation where
you're kind of tussling or struggling with them, it's going
to be the stronger person is going to win straight away.
(28:29):
So you immediately stack the odds in your favor by
kicking them in the inside of the thigh or the knee,
not with not again, not with the intention of ruining
their leg or anything like that, but just to get
the weapon out of their hands. And that is it
seems to be the case that it's in a civil
arrest context. So I would argue that because where those
strikes are placed, it speaks to something within that context
(28:54):
of civil arrest. If it was for you know, no
holds barred combat or skirmishing or whatever, you could just
you know, strike them in the face straight away that
was what you would do, or kick them in the
grond or those strikes would go to far more vulnerable
areas rather than something that is has.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Restraint in it as part of the method.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
You see that in the putting the police today that
sort of same same sort.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, they can use they can use their batons on
the legs and the arms and things that they can't
just go and clock someone across the jaw and take
out a dozen teeth. Yeah, might be timely to give
a little quote. One of the luminaries Matamorasokon in one
(29:43):
hundred and nine to nineteen hundred and one, and he
was the author of the Makimono scroll within that he
went to Fudo in China twice as an envoy for
the Riku Kingdom, which shows an association between the Ruku
Ruku and Royalty and the He's catter, particularly the so
called Shuley Taylor and r.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Yeah, he is an exit.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
One of his written instructions to a student this was
a eighteen eighty two in which he says, an indomitable
calmness makes subjugating an adversary effortless. Yet the proper methods
forbid willful violence.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Yeah, on the whole.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
And that's the connection with the Ruque court, because we
are pretty much you know, a lot of his material
it can be loosely and has been called palace hand
And so I probably could to make a public apology
to Tom now, but it's my fault that he spent
three years trying to work out Kuskus a ssidecatter because
because I suggested that it was. And I'm not really
(30:51):
too unhappy. In the myth there are pictures of me
applying some sample moments from kishen Ku with a SI,
and I'm not unhappy that they're in there, because it's
a bit like a student in an exam showing his
working out. And sometimes even if you got the answer wrong,
as everyone knows, it's you know, in various exams, particularly maths,
(31:14):
you get you get marks for showing you working out,
showing how you arrived at the conclusions. So I very
much see any sort of chink in the armor of
the of the myth book or eras it's just showing
the working out, because ultimately we've got there. Tom's got there.
But it also firms things up because it also shows
(31:36):
why the sye work really can be found in the nawaichi.
That's where you because the whole system around the side,
and that's much more policing I think in the public
or in specific circumstances, whereas I think a lot of
the the seryktter the passais around I think the palace. Yeah,
(32:01):
I think what the quote that you gave from matsumurasokon
that that that approach and that kind of little piece
of philosophy there or ethic is embodied in the catter
as well. So what we were talking about with kusan
Ku that that that restraint there, having some restraint, having
some measure in how you go about business is reflected
(32:22):
in those techniques. Otherwise you could just go berserk, couldn't
you pick the weapon up off the floor at the end,
and so there's no flailing in.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
Yeah, I really like that. It's a great quote.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
That's a great yeah, And it speaks to what was
going on in the in the palace and those those
forms being representations of that and you know, that embodied restraint.
Anything you want to add, keV, I was only thinking
about what I've seen the Christmas suns in the police.
So I've seen he's showed me how they arrest people,
and it's not dissimilar to some of the Codo's tough
(32:55):
in some ways. Well, it's quite fascinating. Yeah, there's no
there's no punching people in the face. No, it's not
that so be fair easier to arrest people, and that
if he could some stories, I couldn't do that job.
That's all good, I mean very It's very impressive of
research that's going into it, and the weapons stuff and
(33:17):
the bushing hands stuff, superb.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
This practice isn't that dissimilar to what we had where
we were practicing, zenra beffort Zen.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
I think there's going to be a lot more to
say about that as well.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
So I think that.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
He briefly when we do the tai Chi one.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I've got an idea for that when we do the
tire Chi episode, and it would be a really good
way to present that little bit of Chinese history and
the importance of the Boxer Rebellion, how it completely changed
the face of martial arts in China.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
That the culture.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
That exists there now started at the end of the
Boxer Rebellion, is so completely different from the culture that
these forms were born into and what was going on
in daily life there. It's going to be a really
great way to kind of get into that and to
bring out the people have their very very secular view
of kata. So there's this idea that just that the
(34:17):
antique forms are just one thing, and that it's a
very they're not separate from the you know, spiritual and
cultural traditions and practices of their time as well, which
is going to be so to talk about ty Chi
would be a useful inroad to that because still exploring
those ideas with the antique Cata myself, and it's a
(34:39):
nice way to tie in the befort Zen and we
and we can talk about choolin as well. We can
do I think there's a great potential to do an
episode on Chaolin. It's got plenty to say about that.
Do you know the first the first documented mention of
an unarmed martial art at Chaolinn was the Eight Drunk
(35:00):
Immortals form and it was taken directly from Chinese opera. Yeah,
the Shaolin monastery and then Buddhist monasteries had their own
theaters built in to the temples, so their first mention
of an unarmed form empty hand combat is stage combat.
(35:21):
So we've got there's loads of like really juicy stuff
in there, and that's.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
What it's still popular.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, well, I mean watch Jackie Chan do the Eight
Drunk Immortals form. It's absolutely unbelievable. I mean, that's what
they were doing on the stage. I mean, you can't
help but be when you see someone do that in
front of you, it's it's unbelievable. So yeah, plenty to
say on that stuff.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
I could talk about it. Well even now I won't
because we will sign up.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Thanks Tom. Okay, that's all the time we have jents.
So today we've discussed the meaning of Coderoo, its origins,
and touched on the research side. In a future episode,
we will explore the everyday practice we promote how its
ethos is similar to when the group was called Chan
Dao kung fu or Zenshorindo Karate. This practice remains true
(36:08):
to the intentions of Nathan's Barefoot Send publication. They're not
claiming ours is the best or only way to practice
and apply karate kata for the modern consumer. Just as
modern karate styles have creatively interpreted anti kata for conditioning, competition, fighting, dueling,
and defense, with the exception of Nihanchin Todorou's practice of
(36:30):
cood Do Tote, is Nathan's creative interpretation of antique kata
rooted in the philosophy and spiritual culture to divide and
transcend internal conflict. Thank you for listening to great karatei
myths debunking legends. If you've enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, follow,
or eave a comment to help keep the Dojo lights on.
(36:52):
Thank you,
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