July 13, 2025 • 68 mins
Embark on a critical exploration of Okinawan Kobudo in this episode of 'Great Karate Myths: Debunking the Legends.' We dive deep into whether modern Okinawan Kobudo is a direct continuation of ancient combative methods or a more recent development influenced by cultural demonstration and Japanese budo. Our hosts unpack the crucial differences in combat distances, discussing how antique forms, particularly with weapons like the Sai and Tonfa, emphasize extremely close-quarters engagement for maximum effectiveness, contrasting with the performative, fixed-distance choreography often seen in modern Okinawan Kobudo. Learn about key figures like Matayoshi Shinko and Taira Shinken, and how their contributions shaped the contemporary landscape of Kobudo. This episode challenges romanticized notions, encouraging a re-evaluation of how these martial arts are understood and practiced.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Hello and welcome to Great Karate Myths, Debunking the
Legends. This episode we're tackling the
intricate question, What is kobudo?
Join us as we dissect Okinaw Kobudo, contrasting its modern
evolution and performance aspects with the combative
realities of antique weapon forms.
We'll discuss the historical context, key figures, and the
(00:27):
crucial concept of distance in martial arts application.
Let's get started. OK, so Tom's going to start us
off as we embark on this journeyto explore what is Kobudo.
Specifically Okinawan kobudo. From the shores of Okinawa.
From the shores of Okinawa, Yeah, gorgeous.
(00:50):
I've got a question to to sort of open it up and then I've got
some points to discuss. And so I'll kind of read out the
question or a point and then we can all comment and kind of move
around it and each bring in whatwe what we've got.
So Shanir brought this up and asa good question to kind of open
(01:12):
with. If we are saying that the
antique Qatar are generally for weapons, isn't this what Okano
and Kabuto is? So we are saying there are Sai
kata, there are Tom for kata, there are kata in dealing with a
bow. Isn't this what Okinawan Kabuto
(01:33):
is? Well, OK, I'll I'll without
wanting to be defensive, which now let us defensive, but we
didn't set out to to even practise Kabuto.
I wasn't particularly interested.
I know Matthew and Tom have excellent sawsman skills and the
(01:54):
closest I ever got to that Howard a Sensei at that time,
the show to who had some involvement with were using a
lot of booking for timing and distance.
So Howard a Sensei corrected my booking swing.
But that was about the best I'veever.
I wasn't particularly interestedin on records at all.
(02:15):
I was interested in punch strike.
What kick? In fact, Nakiyama Masatoshi
Sensei, the the the late chief instructor of the Karate
Association describe karate as if I get this right as being OK,
blocky Kerry peeking, Zuki punching and Uchi striking.
(02:40):
So he called it those four things as vacations.
You classify that way particularly best Kadathi theory
and that was how I saw Kadathi and weapons did not interest me
at all. It didn't but so I think we fell
(03:02):
into it. But and and what really turned
out to be more than a storm in ateacup was the reputation of the
of the waiti Sanchin. And then then the substance hit
the fat, so to speak. And then we saw the parallels.
(03:25):
So in my, this is just my opinion, my view.
I'm not saying it's a collectiveview here, but it's my view.
There's no real difference. But the the I don't want to
steal your Thunder, Tom. But the, the cobudo forms seem
to uncannily follow the patternsof the karate catter.
(03:47):
And I'm it's difficult these days for me as an individual to
really well, this is this is going to get me shot down in
flames to tell the difference. Oh, this Johnson, what kind of
idiot is he? Can't tell the difference
between and the and the karate catter.
But I'll rest there and let someone else develop that.
(04:10):
So I think that the the only thing that we share with Okinawa
and Kabuto and we don't practise, just to clarify, we
don't practise Okinawa and Kabuto, but the only thing that
we share is that we use the sameweapons.
But apart from that it's completely different.
And what you see in the Okinawa and Kabuto is the core karate
(04:34):
techniques, the OK Wazo, the block, the so-called blocking
techniques being performed emptyhanded with a pair of SI or with
tomfur and the kata are all generally, as Nathan's already
pointed out, very, very similar and most likely developed
alongside modern karate. So although you can find good,
(04:57):
you know, there's a quite a fairbit of history out there on
weaponry and weapon use in Okinawa.
The, the, the, the methods of modern Okinawa and Kabuto are
exactly that, probably a modern invention.
The methods that we find in the antique karate character, the
(05:18):
forms preserved in karate that were originally intended for
these weapons, the methods are completely different.
And so that suggests to me that the the way that the that the
weapons are used in Okinawa and Kabuto are that's evidence for
(05:39):
me for that it's they're a modern invention.
And I would suggest and I'll probably get in trouble for
saying this, that the Okinawan Kabuto wasn't developed out of
combative experience. And I think that the antique
methods as preserved in the Waitu EU and in the Shorin Roux
(06:01):
forms that were inherited from China were developed out of
combative experience. And there's a few points to
support that. So one of them is that the
distance used. So what you see in Okinawan
Kabuto are we're we're back there again, I'm afraid,
choreography, lots and lots of choreography.
But at they're consistently at aconsistent distance.
(06:24):
So you'll see a pair of PSI go up against a bow or a pair of
Tomfa go up against a bow and they'll generally the
choreography will generally takeplace at the operating distance
of the bow as opposed to where the the distance that the Sai
and the tomfur could be effective.
(06:44):
And it takes the same shape as lots of karate, karate kumite,
fixed kumite takes, which is oneperson attacks, there's a block,
a counter on, then perhaps another attack.
And you get this kind of step bySo the distance is really
(07:10):
problematic because what you find in the antique methods,
particularly with the PSI. So just using that as an example
from now in the weight you read,we've got the three forms.
The, the function of the PSI takes place very close quarters.
You know, you're, you can smell the person's breath, that's how
close you are. And that's where all of these
skills are operating. There's nothing in the antique
(07:34):
forms that indicates any kind ofexchange or, or you know, taking
place at the distance of a bow or a soiled or anything like
that. It's all about dominating at
close quarters where the sigh are going to be most effective.
You can employ the hooks depending on the which position
(07:56):
you have the sigh in and you know, strike at close quarters
and so on and so on. And the same with the tomfur.
So seeing a pair of tomfur applied against the bow in
Okinawan kabuto, you see it downat the distance where the bow's
effective and yet they're blocking strikes with the bow
and carrying and then countering.
(08:17):
And the antique method from China suggests that you start
really, really close and you stay there so that the bow has
no opportunity to be functional to to be employed in a really
powerful way. And so getting engaging at the
(08:38):
Bose distance, you're going to put yourself in real trouble.
Yeah, I'll stop there. And before I go to the next
point and and anyone else just jump in there.
Yeah, you've, you've summarised it perfectly, Tom.
The the interesting thing is that when I earlier said oh,
(09:01):
Kubuto, I see Kubuto and Karate Cata as being the same.
I was really only had in my headthe Waiti series Sanjin
Southeast San San Selyu. That's really what I had in mind
because they're commonly considered to be karate cata
globally. Yep, they're Karate cata.
The interesting that the the forms that use a a metal weapon
(09:26):
are either edged or otherwise. And in, in the, in the case of
the SI, it's, it's not edged. So it's not a sword, but it's
they used to pair. But the, the cattle will present
with a, a front foot toad in position in the same way that
you might find the wing tongue presents in, in its training.
And particularly with regard to the dummy, the the wooden man.
(09:50):
And I'm not saying they're the same thing, but you can see the
similarities and they are exactly as Tom describes.
And they would require closing the distance, pressing and
trapping and, and using leverageto trap and control and pin the
opponent and not to stand back and sort of offence like you're,
(10:10):
you're filming for a Robin Hood film, You know, it's, it's, it's
a completely different distance,as Tom suggests to those
described. And there are so many features
that show this on a on the boat,the the dangerous distance, the
(10:31):
distance that is an advantage but provides an advantage to the
bow wielder. This is completely wrong for the
sigh. It's it's the distance must be
closed. The person must be pinned and
trapped and prevented, not giventhe space to use their weapon.
(10:54):
Whether it's a a bokken, a sword, a beau, a Joe, doesn't
matter what it is. You know, anything that's slung
or can be slung has to be shut down before it can get going.
That's the whole point. Yeah, I think that's absolutely
right. It makes absolute common sense,
isn't it? That to close down the gap and
(11:15):
make it keep it in close? Yeah, makes sense.
I think it's detrimental to the practitioner to even bother
practising engaging a bow with apair of Tom Forsy at distance
because it shouldn't even be an idea that would be should be
entertained. The the problem, the the problem
(11:37):
of closing the distance isn't one for the cattle because
you've just got to run and get in.
You've got to get in close quickly and not engage.
As soon as you agree to engage at the distance where the bow's
affected, you're in big trouble.So yeah, that that choreography,
you know, again, is performativeit and it's sort of exists.
(12:00):
I mean, Matt touched on this last week, but it exists in its
own bubble. So you get highly skilled and
really lovely choreography with the weaponry, the exchanges, and
they're really, really effective.
But only within that bubble could they then free fight in
that way. Could they then, And I I would
(12:23):
suggest that you can't and it wouldn't.
They're not effective methods ofyou employing those weapons and
just go at the antique catter. Don't engage at a distance.
They start close and they stay close where that where those
weapons are their most, most effective, which suggests to me
(12:44):
that these methods were developed in in Okinawa and
highly influenced by probably kendo and kenjutsu.
So the engagement at a distance.So that the influence there of
Japanese swordsman ships and Japanese budo methods certainly
can be seen in Okinawa and kobudo.
And I think that they're methodsthat they've created with the
(13:06):
Sai and the Tom Franceau and arebrand new.
One piece of evidence for that is the is the way I'm using the
sigh as an example is the way the sigh are gripped in order to
create powerful leverage with the sigh.
What we found in the antique forms is that the grips are
(13:27):
completely different from the way that they are held in modern
Okinawa and Caberudo. And I would say that the way
that they hold it in the sigh inboth positions, as both standard
positions of holding the sigh are actually not very effective
at all. And you can't create powerful
(13:49):
leverage in that in the way thatthey're held.
And you also run the risk of damaging you leave a finger
vulnerable in one position and the tip of your thumb vulnerable
in the other one. So yeah, that that suggests to
me that they're new methods and that the methods from China
didn't arrive with the weapons or the Qatar, peculiarly in
(14:11):
Okinawa. Don't ask me to explain how that
happened because I've got no idea.
So I mean, when, when you say Okinawa, do we go step back
further and say the Royuku Kingdom?
You can do, yeah. Don't you know that that's sort
of within a timeline? More specifically, we're saying
(14:31):
it was the Royuku Kingdom at that time.
It was. Yeah, but it's really, it's
mostly Okinawa because we're talking about we're only talking
about a handful of people when we're not.
If we look at how much Kobudo Karrison is associated with
Matayoshi Shinko and later with his son Matayoshi Shimpo the
(14:58):
elder, the father, I think he was born in 18.
I may get this wrong so forgive me.
He's either 18861888. He's he's, but he was born in
1888 and I know he died Fina Koscijuchen since he died in 57.
Miyagi Charlton since he died in53 and I think Matthioshi died
(15:24):
in probably 47. So we're looking at this running
only from this is this materialsrunning contemporaneous with the
the creation of karate itself. So these things are so Mattyosi
(15:45):
was a a contemporary of of Funakoshi Dichen.
So they were both born in the 18yes, late.
This this material is late. I think that's my point.
It's it's really quite late and it's hard to find a lot of
Kobudu names. And as Tom says, it's just a few
(16:06):
names. And I think the other one who we
may might discuss is Tyra Shinken, who who who's also very
late and he figures quite prominently, but that seems to
be about it historically. It seems to me, and I'm not an
expert at this is not really my subject, but pretty much
(16:26):
everyone that that professes to have a lineage for within their
for their Co Budo practise tendsto be associated with one of
those two names. I think we've ended up with this
peculiar situation where Qatar have arrived from China that
(16:50):
were weapons forms without the weapons which inspired the
development of karate, which then inspired the development of
new weapons forms because those standard karate techniques are
employed with the Kobudo weapons.
So you can see pretty much the same material in Tyra Shinken's
book. You can see that that the the
(17:12):
Sai and the Tomfa forms are remarkably similar in the
technical content and don't in any way resemble the systems of
the antique forms. And so that's why I've, I'm
guessing that they were developed not from combative
experience, but as you know, developing alongside karate and,
(17:36):
and modern martial art methods in, in Okinawa and, and you
know, the, the neighbouring islands and so on.
And also for anyone that cares to look at this, we've got the
same the classic story. So yeah, Matthioshi, he, he does
(17:59):
the trip to China, he spent allegedly spent thirteen years
in China. And I'm not saying this is not,
this is untrue. I don't know it wasn't there,
but it's the same familiar storyas as you have with Higaciona
Kanro and and Waitsy Kambon. Now, obviously we know exactly
where Waitsy Kambon went. We got a very good idea of the,
(18:25):
of the Coon or the Dojo that he learnt that, that the three
waitchikata, the original 3 waitchikata, we, we would know
where he acquired those. And we, we, we suspect it's the
same kroon or Dojo that where Higashi on a canaro picked up
(18:48):
the same forms some 20 years earlier.
So we have a similar story, but I'm not sure with Matthioshi.
I think that that might be some somewhat of a smokescreen
because he as Tom's already said, these forms, these cobudo
forms strangely follow the something of the pattern of of
(19:17):
karate kata, but I did not so much.
And to my knowledge, they don't use the toad in foot of the so
they turned in stand the sanction that you find in the
Waitchi that that they seem to be more inspired by the by the
jury and I think. Ballistic exchanges.
(19:39):
Yes, ballistic, absolutely what we're already.
Rather than a kind of press trapin type.
Yeah, sorry. Go on, Nathan.
No, I've I've just digressed my case.
It's for now. It's a it's late as you say.
This is a founder who runs contemporaneous with Funokosi
(20:01):
Jigen Sensei, founder of it's. Very late in the 20th century
there's a massive explosion of new forms and Tyra Shinken was
someone that collated together as many different kata and
weapons as he could and formulated.
It's well documented he formulated forms to to be
(20:25):
representations of these weapons.
And so Kabuto really, really grew a lot in the in the
especially the mid and mid 20th century and beyond.
And this is still going on. So what you see now in Okinawan
Kabuto, there's some really, really highly skilled
(20:45):
individuals with very, very impressive choreography.
And you know, Matt, we talked last week again talked about
seeing very, very skilled people, but within within that
art. And so I think Okinawan Kabuto,
the methods not being developed from combative experience as the
(21:08):
antique methods were only exist effectively within that art.
And they don't extend beyond that in to say you couldn't take
those methods and they'd be affected methods for policing or
bodyguarding or palace guard, you know, or, or anything like
that as the antique methods. Most likely were, so that's
(21:32):
that's where you'll say that thefunction was lost.
So they without that function ofpolicing or darting.
Yeah, it's weird. It's it's really weird with
these weapons scatter with without the knowledge of the
function and but we've still gotthe weapons.
I mean, there is a greater history of the bow in our canal.
(21:53):
You know, there's, there's a lotmore development in that in
those methods and there's documented several people in the
late 19th and, you know, centurygoing to China to learn Chinese
staff methods. So and that's quite interesting
in it in itself. But yeah.
(22:14):
Yeah, Matt, go on. You want to jump in?
Well. I was just, I was just thinking
I the, I was thinking about the,the relationship between the
Okinawa and Kabuto and, and whatwe know of the, the Japanese
systems. And it, it strikes me and I, I
might be out on a limb here and,and need to wind my neck in, but
(22:38):
it, it seems to me that the, thecontext is really cultural
preservation. There are their, their
demonstration pieces, beautifully done and highly
skilled, but it's, it's about cultural export.
(22:59):
And we've mentioned some of these names in, in connection
with Funakoshi and, and of course Funakoshi who has
travelled to, to karate to, to Japan and to establish it there.
And so I don't, I don't think wecan ignore the influence of
trying to establish A cultural tradition that can be
(23:22):
demonstrated, presented to people.
And especially at that, at that sort of time, you know, the,
that part of the world was, was really quite devastated by, you
know, various conflicts that have gone on.
So I I think that's, that's worth considering outside of
that context, outside of demonstrating the choreography
(23:46):
of these things. Yeah.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not entirely convinced that that was
the the intent behind it was to establish a genuine combative
system. I might be wrong.
Oh. That's a lovely point, I guess.
Yeah, fantastic. That's an excellent, very well,
(24:09):
well made point and I couldn't agree more.
Cultural export. If you think of, no disrespect
to, to Okinawa and the Okinawans, if you think of
Japan, you've, you've got the samurai and you've got the, the,
it's in history, a long history.You know, you've got the Shogun,
the Shogun, you've got so much that everybody is.
(24:32):
And then when and of course in, in the later days, you've got
Okinawan exports like motor cars, for example, when, when it
comes to Okinawa, Oh yes, karate, Okinawa, the home of
karate. And I, I agree with you, Matt.
And I think that's quite, it's avery, very strong point that
(24:54):
it's a, the, I think it is a cultural product is unfair.
It's a they've they've, they've given themselves, they've
enhanced something that they received and and turned it into
a stable item of, of Okanowan culture.
(25:14):
I think. Good point.
Yeah, I think Patrick and Eurocombe, I think that's,
pardon me if I've got the name wrong, It's Patrick.
McCarthy's wife's translation ofTyra Shinken's book supports
that because there's a part in there where there's some
(25:36):
additional research that PatrickMcCarthy's done to there.
He talks a little bit about Irish Shinken's life and who he
was practising with and where hewas kind of researching and
collecting together all of thesedifferent kind of martial arts
that didn't quite didn't have Qatar, but and these different
(25:56):
weapons skills, little bits and pieces here and there.
So you find TECO, you know, knuckle dusters and you find a
fishing knife and a turtle ship.You know, they didn't have kata,
they didn't have systems attached to them, but they
certainly do have now. And so it's almost it's it's
creating a presentation of thoseultra relics, if you like, that
(26:20):
may or may not have been used for real.
We don't know. But there's, there's a, there's
a rich history of weaponry and things in Okinawa.
And you can find that we were talking about Mark Bishop's
research earlier and you know, Andrea's class certainly and
Patrick McCarthy as well have all written quite extensively
about it. So there's plenty of to, to in
(26:43):
terms of the development of it all.
But I suppose our main point is,is how does Okinawan Kabuto and
the weapons that it has compare with the antique methods?
And they're very, very, very different.
Well, I was just thinking then about the previous conversation
where we had about the theatre Would, would, would, would this.
(27:06):
Cultural export actually includetheatrics to as a as a means of
communicating it. I was just thinking that
Andrea's Quest wrote a book lastyear documenting lots of
different village bow bow methods and some of them are
(27:26):
purely performative so they would do damage the different
villages would do. I'm not sure if bowed dances are
the quite, quite the correct term, but theatrical certainly
performative, certainly. And, and there's records of
martial demonstrations being given and you can, and certainly
(27:50):
employing Cobudo weapons from the mid or the later 19th
century. There's 1867, I think it is.
And the, the, the outline of theperformances is, is, has been
preserved unfortunately. But I I don't doubt that content
was created to to demonstrate those weapons and create,
(28:14):
perform and perform performancesfor them.
Not. Just one thing.
But what? We're not going to know this
history like you do, but what point?
But at what point? Point does it become Chinese
Theatre is it after the docking now and stuff war before there's
probably one thing where it's transmitted and someone's picked
(28:36):
up and made it into a not to splice yes the Chinese Theatre
goes back hundreds if not 1000 ayears thousand a years and so I
think that was certainly influenced docking our own
culture and what you do in the way of the warrior series in one
episode they I think it is it Mario Higano Nathan he goes to
(28:57):
look at some Okinawan dance to compare the movements of karate
and it suggested that some methods were dance he gonna said
say Mario he gonna Mario but he's not the only one there were
many but. Also, Nagamina Shoshin discusses
it, but in an interview that he gave for Japanese television.
(29:21):
And in fact, he he does the samething as that he he got, he
gonna essentially did bridges toto to take the viewers to a
dance studio. And there's always to talk and
pardon my pronunciation because I I you know, I might my
Japanese is I could maybe order lunch or something same as my
(29:43):
Cantonese. I could order lunch and say
thank you and hello and so on. But and you cat in the moment
cater this whole idea of of there's a dance kata and that
the risk with all that is, is, is is to conflate karate kata
with dancing. And that's that's an easy
(30:05):
mistake. And and that leads to strange
things that assumptions that thedeadly martial arts movements
are hidden in dances. It's not a, that's not a hill
I'd like to die on in a, in a, in a debate, but I, I, I, I
think that whilst the dance willreflect the culture.
(30:29):
Just a quick aside here. In my view, Ming dynasty,
Chinese culture affected the entire region of the, of the Far
East, the entire region in the same way, in my view that Rome
affected the, the whole of Europe.
You know that that that's the way it worked.
And and so obviously the dances that one sees in Okinawa and are
(30:53):
going to reflect the the the culture that they've inherited
and have been developing. The the the idea that you know,
it's, it's it's it's a romantic idea to think that you've got
deadly muscle arts move hidden in dances.
Even there's a big stretch of the imagination.
(31:16):
That's a big that's a big ask. There's a big buy in you'd have
to do, you know, well, I could be wrong.
Maybe the Bolshoi could be seriously deadly fighters.
If they really, you know, revealed the the movements from
their from their dances and and employed them in fights.
(31:39):
Who knows, maybe they could you could, you could win AUFC
tournament with, I don't know, both side Ballet Rio.
That could be good. OK, yeah, sorry, pardon the
cynicism. I think that covers it quite
well. I was watching a SCI form the
(31:59):
other day and the one of the moves one of the techniques it
was a Nippon daci get a new key that that that standing on one
leg low block. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we see them in the Waitress series.
Yeah, but well, the difference is, is that when they in Okinawa
(32:22):
Kabuto, when they're using it, the position of the SI is that
they're holding it in their handand using the, the, the body of
the SI to, to block or parry. You know, while lifting the leg
in the Sasan, you're, you're leaping completely out of the
way. Yeah, you'll, you'll, you'll
create your braking distance before coming back in.
(32:43):
So you're not using that arm movement as an attempt to block
or parry. You're clearing yourself
completely out of the way of into it too much because it's
better seen than talked about. But a blade may be drawn or
presented or on its way out. So you get the hell out of
(33:04):
there, and the way of of throwing yourself back out of
the way involves using that typeof movement.
But that but that left arm that comes down as the left leg is
lifted, Isn't that a block? There's no, no, there's no
(33:24):
block. Or or protecting.
Protecting. Sort of.
No, no. Forget that.
It's a way of throwing your bodyout of the way.
So if you had your hands down byyour, if you had your hands down
by your side and you tried to jump back, what you're doing is
you're using torque and creatingmomentum so that you can really
(33:47):
throw yourself back out of the way.
There's no block. Yeah.
No. If you look at it all it's doing
so you've got one hand off in itlooks like a saluting position.
The other hand is, is flipped tothe back, but the leg is raised.
So you've removed three of the limbs that could be targets.
(34:09):
Obviously you have to stand on the other one.
So the whole leak back just draws the leg out of the way
and, and discovers you is, is just a very sensible thing to
do. It's just it it, it's it's when
the substance hits the fan and you you leak back out of the
way, which is why you can see inthe example given in, say, sand
(34:30):
cutter, you then close the distance again rapidly.
Because what what happens after that leak back is a re a quick
reclosing of the distance, big wide move forward movements to
get back in and and shut shut the shut the opponent down.
Yeah. And I think we're back to the
question of distancing here withthe with many of the Okinawan
(34:54):
Kabuto forms that you see demonstrated.
They're demonstrating, as Tom pointed out earlier, they're
demonstrating the the use of these weapons at what is it, You
know, if it's a bow, for example, at the effective
distance of a bow, it's incredibly dangerous to try and
get in the way of a swing of a bow, even with a metal rod on
(35:15):
your arm and block it. You know, and that's not what
the antique ATA preserve. They, they preserve getting out
the way and closing the distance.
And what what really makes thesethese antique forms different is
that closing the distance and everything in tight and probably
(35:38):
quite messy doesn't really lend itself to clean demonstration as
as the Okinawan Kabuto does it it just simply the aesthetics
are are all off for for demonstration purposes.
So I mean, you, you can see why the Okinawan Kabuto want to
(36:02):
preserve or or demonstrate some techniques with these weapons in
a very nice choreographed way with distances that people don't
necessarily question. You can see why, why, why they
would want to do that. Because it, it, it looks much
(36:23):
nicer. It makes the point for the
audience, not an accurate one, but it makes a point really.
In reality, these things are much more scrappy if you're, if
you're that close, as Tom pointed out earlier, if you're
that close to somebody, you know, everything happens in a,
(36:44):
in a, in a split second. And ideally, you're trying to,
you're trying to prevent limbs from moving that are holding
another weapon. And that, you know, that so much
can happen without an audience being able to discern what's
happening. So yeah, yeah, they're, they're
(37:06):
different. They're totally different in
flavour. And just following on from that,
I think what happens is on thoseperformative distances, you
start to get exactly the same problems that you have in
karate, which is if you're blocking a bow with a rising
block or a sweeping down block, a dead amber rye, how do you
(37:27):
know what the attack's going to be?
What's following it? What makes you think that you
could stop a full power swing ofa bow if you get it wrong?
Even if you can guess what the attack is, you know that you're
still going to get potential if you get massively injured and
(37:50):
and so on and so on. And you get the same repetitive
problems. The the the bad guy is the
person with the bow, the good guy is the guy with the Tom fur
or the sigh and the bow always loses.
You know yet that somehow they can confidently predict what the
half a dozen attacks are going to be, carry them all
beautifully, and then finish andwin.
(38:11):
I mean it's the same old stuff and it looks great.
It looks great is, you know, theskill levels are there with it
but within the bubble. So Ocndo and Kabuto can exist
within Okada and Kabuto, Could that translate into full contact
no holds barred? I doubt it.
And it's the same with karate. Karate looks fantastic.
(38:32):
A lot of the bunkai that was presented looks fantastic within
the choreography or these flow drills, which are long pieces of
choreography does, you know, again, and it's the same point I
made last week, how do you take those pieces of choreography and
it and it lead to spontaneity. And that's another core
(38:54):
difference with the Okinawan kabuto and the antique forms,
the antique methods. These antique systems are driven
to allow spontaneity and improvisation to be central to
it and so that's why it avoids choreography or flow drills and
all of that stuff. Whereas the the presentation of
(39:17):
the cater and the function and the training is essentially
choreography and Okada and kaboodoo.
So it's lacking in spontaneity or, or even a way of arriving at
that, which suggests to me that it's not combative in the 1st
place. Because if it was, if it was
rooted in real fighting with weapons and real experience with
(39:38):
weapons, it would be a given that you needed to be able to be
improvised. Because you, that would be the
first thing that you realise is that the chaos of it requires
it, demands it. So yeah, that's just for adding
to Matt's point there. Which is also.
Why they have no sparring? Yeah, well, there's there's kind
(40:01):
of it's they had in the last couple of years.
I've seen it. There's competitions of sparring
with bow, but they're kind of two shin eye strapped together
and they've got the kind of bogo, they've got the armour on
endo esque type armour. But again, it's the same problem
(40:21):
that karate has is that it's nothing like the katta, it's
nothing like the choreography it.
So you've got 3 completely different things going on there,
none of which seems to marry up well or lead to the spontaneous
ability to fight with the weapon.
(40:43):
You know, I think I think that the the choreographed pieces
could well lull people into a full sense of security with with
the use of of these weapons. It as, as you quite rightly
point out, Tom, the, the, the choreographed nature of it
doesn't, doesn't lead to necessarily being able to
(41:06):
improvise with these things. And in, in reality, it's, it's,
it's going to be quite scrappy. But one thing I, I think we,
well, it might be a, it might bea, a bit of a digression, but I,
I think it's worth just recalling that a, a, a great
deal has gone on before there's an engagement, You know, an
(41:30):
effective sigh operative has first of all, tried to de
escalate a situation. They've probably got themselves
in quite close. And if it erupts into the need
to actually subdue somebody and control their limbs, then the
negotiation hasn't, hasn't worked.
(41:50):
But you've, you've pretty much closed the distance at that
point and you've tried to talk them down, whoever it is that
that you're facing. And of course, you know,
demonstration, choreographed demonstration pieces.
Don't, don't take that sort of thing into that context into
consideration. It's very nicely, you know, sort
(42:14):
of a dual etiquette that's that's demonstrated.
We slowly approach each other. One person does one technique,
one person responds. I just I you know, we're back to
the the influence of cinema. Probably it it's it's very
(42:35):
performative and yeah, it it, itcertainly doesn't capture what
it was what that in altercation might actually.
Look like it all goes out the window as well if a third person
suddenly introduced and and that's a but that's a core
difference. The antique forms assume that
(42:58):
you might be working with someone.
So there is no jewelling, particularly when it's
bodyguarding or or policing or whatever.
And they're just suggested context.
But it I would be working, say for example, with Matt to disarm
someone. There's no jewel the way she
forms those. Those assigned method can be
(43:22):
worked with two people working together.
It's not a duelling method. It's not a one-on-one.
It doesn't lead to sparring or anything like that.
We need to be able to function together and that and that those
sort of those systems, if we both know the system, we both
know what each other's going to do depending where we are in
relation to the person and we are know what the struggle is
(43:44):
going to be so we can work to mutually support each other.
And you don't see that in the Okinawa and Kabuta.
And I've, I mean, I might be wrong, but I've never even seen
it suggested that, you know, youwould need two or three to take
down one person with a bow which, or a spear, which, you
know, which is, you probably would need that.
(44:06):
Yeah, that. That's a great point because I
mean, that's the same in karate.It's always, it's always a duel.
It's always one-on-one. I've you've never see two on
one, whether it's MDI Hand or Kabuto, you never see this as
functionals in that same way. And I think that that's evidence
(44:31):
that the karate and the kabuto were fundamentally developed
alongside in parallel and and that and that it's all
relatively modern stuff because it's all the same.
It's the same techniques, armed or unarmed, and they have
exactly the same problems. It's a bit like policing, isn't
(44:51):
it? When you see them arresting
somebody and it's usually three or four officers to take down
one person, isn't it? Never.
It's never a jewel. They're not that stupid, aren't
they? It's exactly, exactly the
inverse proportions that we're used to.
So the the usual, the old fashioned explanations, I mean,
it's changed a lot now since, since I began training.
(45:14):
But the explanations for the, the Embu, you know, the floor
pan plans and what they catered.Yeah, multiple opponents and the
Japan Party Association demonstrated them at great
length demonstrated that in in multiple videos and
publications. So the idea is it's 11
(45:38):
individual. He's the hero and income the
first bad guy and he's dealt with and then the second bad.
Of course, on our film, we showed what really happens when
everyone when when the chap doing a very neat techie
application block and punch in in facing the next one.
(45:59):
I think all credit to Andy, who did it exactly in in the way
that the JKAJKA did it. And then we showed the a
slightly more realistic scenariowhere everyone just jumps on him
at the same time and and and bundles him to the ground.
I think the reality is it's not that one lone person fighting
(46:22):
against several bad guys, a little little coterie of thugs,
but you've it's actually the other way around.
It's the exact, it's the inverseof that.
It's it's the arresting officers, you know, should
outnumber the miscreant. And it's interesting that we
(46:42):
hinted as much with the Knight Hansen that the two stages where
there's the either the double licker Tay or the OR, or or what
we call the fortress position, either side where the person is
held, they can be tied at that point, which indicates that you
should pretty well have a colleague working with you.
(47:05):
Lovely. So I have a have a speculative
question with regards the the antique.
Let's just stick with the SI forms for the moment.
If you're if you're a SI operative, you're obviously
choreographed cater not the way to go, not not the way to go to
(47:29):
prepare for this kind of engagement.
Using the site so speculatively,how do you think the the the the
actual the practise of trapping limbs and striking limbs could
actually be practised with some kind of feedback?
Just just a speculative question.
(47:51):
I wonder if you had any ideas? Well, I, I, yeah, I mean, I
think, you know, you can practise, for example, putting,
putting the hooks on someone's wrist and then getting them to
resist. You don't need to practise
hitting them. You can hit a post or you can,
you know, you can do practise. You're hitting on that.
(48:11):
It doesn't require someone to hit the arms, but the kind of
the the struggle you can practise quite simply.
And that may have been and we'vealso got to consider that not
every single encounter is going to be an all out fight.
It might simply be that the hookgoes on the wrist, leverage in A
(48:35):
twist is applied and that's enough for the person to give
up. The police don't always have to
wrestle someone to the ground, but a knee behind the back of
the neck and then twist their arms up.
Sometimes they just take hold ofthe wrist and turn them towards
a wall or something and the person will allow them to be.
So there's the degrees of cooperation.
(48:57):
Again, it's, you know, what you see in the extended choreography
pieces is that somehow every single incident of policing is
an all out battle. If that was the case, USI
operatives would retire pretty quickly because you've only got
so many fights. Yeah, how how many times can
they engage with weapons and notbecome seriously injured?
(49:20):
So I, I think that that you can practise and lots and lots of
these things, lots and lots of aspects of these systems with
resisting people and get a feel for it.
And you will have been accumulating that real life
experience. And there's, there's also the
(49:41):
simple fact that if there's two of us taking on one person, it's
far simple. The struggle is completely
different. And if there's three of us, it's
even easier. If there's four of us, it's even
easier. So the idea of it being on a
one-on-one battle Royale is, is a kind of is a modern one that
(50:03):
we see in martial arts. And you know, not everything is
going to be UFC title fight. Some of it's going to be very,
very simple, but effective application of the skills.
So the, the sense of distance, Iknow where I need to be.
That's input. I know what how close I need to
be. I know where I need to cover.
(50:24):
I know what position the sign need to be and how to make
contact. And it might be something like
pressing on the limb, I might becreating a bridge using leverage
with the Scion and someone's upper arm and covering the
bottom arm with a hook just to just to while I speak to them.
Something along those lines and,and building your sense of where
(50:49):
you know where you are in relation and how you're working
with the person. That's how the system's applied.
And I think just a long winded answer to your question, Matt,
but you can practise lots of those qualities and elements
very easily and, and, and engagewith very high amount resistance
to get lots of lovely feedback. But again, we're practising
(51:09):
recreationally. So we're missing the most vital
ingredient, which is the the real experience which would
allow, which would facilitate the application of these skills
in a highly stressed environment.
So you're going to have all the adrenaline and all of that stuff
that you have to experience lotsand lots of times in order to be
able to function effectively, which we don't have
(51:32):
recreationally. So yeah.
Yeah, I, I, you know, I think it's, it's worth just returning
to that point that the again, sticking with the the sigh Cata
that they don't those the techniques recorded in the cata
don't prescribe death dealing blows.
You're not smashing somebody over the head.
(51:56):
You're trying to maintain peace and order in as dignified a way
as you can. So again, you know, the, the,
the influence of, of choreographed kata where some
techniques that are demonstratedmost certainly would end in and
(52:19):
you know, somebody expiring or or very seriously injured and
that and that. And as you say, there's a sigh
operative. You probably wouldn't last very
long if you if you went around smashing people over the head
with your metal pronged weapon. That's yeah, it's, it's, it's
(52:42):
not the purpose. You're not trying to cave
someone's head in. Again, cultural context.
You'd find a very different method if if you're using the
tip of the side to stab into theeyes or throat or you were
hitting the skull or vulnerable areas, you'd see very, very
different, a very, very different method.
(53:03):
So one of the things that shapedthe the system of side use found
in those forms is, is the is themoral and ethical components as
you've just described there. There's a consideration there of
not killing someone, of not doing perhaps or trying to avoid
permanent or serious damage, which then kind of it, it goes
(53:25):
towards shaping how you can do that and be very, very effective
still within your. Role Well I I would suggest that
the the Ninja Turtles have got alot to answer for probably.
(53:48):
This is one thing as well that you do see in Okinawa and Kabuto
that you never see in the antique forms, which is throwing
a sigh. You never throw, don't ever
throw it away. Yeah, because someone else could
just pick it up and use it against.
Yeah, I think, I think, I think the antique methods are really,
(54:10):
really interesting because you, they would have been used under
the, you know, those highly stressed conditions.
But they still had to have some restraint.
They had to have some develop control because it, if you're
frightened or, you know, in, in serious danger, it'd be quite
(54:31):
easily to refer to brutal methods and 'cause, you know,
permanent damage or death. And so to the practises, you
know, ask the the practitioner to be effective, but restrained
at the same time. It's, it's really interesting.
(54:51):
It's completely different from the modern day applications,
unarmed or armed, where you know, everything's no holds
barred. Everything is poke them in the
eye, kick them in the groyne, break their arm, head, butt, you
know, stab, stab, stab, stab, stab back, back, back, back.
These these methods speak to ethics and and morals in civil
(55:15):
society. And I think that makes them
really interesting to explore. You know, and practising those
methods shapes the way that you engage as well.
So by not hitting that to the head, by not violently engaging
in extreme ways, the more you practise it, it you embody, you
(55:40):
embody the ethic, it becomes something that's alive in your
way that you engage. One final point for me, the the
other thing that is very apparent in the weighty series,
we've already described the leakback, which is the when the when
(56:02):
you're in trouble. But apart from that, if you look
at it in the same page, ring Tung, ring Tung forms no
backward steps through, through,you know, through three forms,
Silum Tao, Tom Q Bugi and the dummy, no backward step, only
sideways. And when you look at the
original Weichi Sanchin, no backward step, even when they
(56:27):
close with the three more RussiaUK, it's quite different from
Miyagi Sensi's Sanchin, which does step backwards.
The weightiest version does not step backwards, but only will
ever go forward and it goes to the side to, to to, to, to
finish. But it's effectively it's not
(56:47):
stepping back. And because you, if you're
trying to close, why would you be stepping back?
So the, the, the object is to isto close and press and control
the limbs. And just to add to that, there's
and our old friend Knight Hanshin Katter.
There's no backward step. There's no backward step.
(57:11):
It never steps back. You, you, you know, it doesn't
step back. It takes the person to the side
and it maintains the control, but it does not step back.
If you're going to have a style that's like fencing, you have to
have parry ripos, step back, step in backwards and forwards.
No, those cater don't do that. Yeah.
(57:35):
It's quite different. For instance, I, I, I keep
getting and I do apologise to you guys, I keep getting.
I've said on a couple of occasions that I've referred to
Chinto potentially being a Tom for Katter.
(57:55):
What I meant was Gojushiha and it's TomTom.
Tom did remind me of that in a conversation, say he didn't
criticise me for it, but I, I, Igot got them mixed up.
But it, it, it, it would be takea look at the cat stance and
Tom's the one to really let everyone know how that works.
(58:17):
It's it what we're really talking about is pinning,
trapping, closing and monitoringlimbs and damaging limbs.
So the these, these, these, these tools, these weapons are
designed to inflict, to prevent the person to control their
(58:38):
violence. And, and, and you have to close
them down, you know, a point we can't stress enough.
You have to shut them down and restrict the, the amount of
changes or techniques that they can produce or violence that
they can generate. They can't do that when they're
all gummed up and jammed up and their limbs are pinned and
(58:59):
trapped. And also where, you know, you've
inflicted a swift hit with what's effectively a, an iron
truncheon, you know, a whack on the wrist from that or the elbow
that's getting of course, of course, you, of course, the
other guy a problem. You know you can't do that from
six feet away. I think as well, Nathan, people
(59:24):
massively underestimate how effective a bash on the arm from
a tomfool. So he is.
I mean it's I mean it's it mightnot be enough to stop you, but
it might be enough to make you stop and think.
I don't fancy any more of that. I just I remembered Matt and I
were training in Jodo and we dida we were doing a course on
(59:46):
Tanjo, the short stick. And I've got my my timing and
distance it wrong. So I took a hit to the head with
a tan joke from Matt and that isenough.
And it's only a very, very lightone, but that Matt was very
controlled. That was enough.
I never ever want that again Andsay I just think even when
(01:00:10):
demonstrating with the term for the sigh or working with
someone, you have to be very, very careful because very, very
light shots. Are really excruciatingly
painful or can be when I know someone's going to be a dream
realised and will get well, you know, that's not going to stop
someone in the full fight. But it'd be surprised how little
it takes to stop someone in their tracks and go, OK, and
(01:00:34):
then that's what we're speaking to as well.
Then it's again, as I reiterate,it's just it's not all a battle
Royale. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that the, the battle
Royale scenario as you, as you phrase it, is, I think that's a,
a peculiarly modern and totally out of context mentality.
(01:01:00):
Yeah. I, you know, there's so, so many
sort of bunkai, you know, back to the empty handed karate stuff
that I see demonstrated, which is, is it's well, it's almost
vile. It's, it's really horrible
stuff. You know, you've got people
mimicking sticking thumbs in other people's eyes and, you
(01:01:23):
know, gouging and clawing away at faces and elbows in faces and
all this, this, this approach that comes from, seems to come
from the idea that it's just completely unfettered violence.
(01:01:43):
Most, and you know, Nathan, you make this point in, in the great
karate myth, most people, with the exception of a very few
psychologically disturbed people, don't really want all
our violence. It it's not, it's and it's and
especially, especially with a system that is heavily
(01:02:07):
influenced by Chinese Ming culture, which is highly
conservative and highly Confucian, as amongst other
things, maintaining social orderand harmony is, is, is the first
priority, not brutalising somebody and smashing their head
in with an iron truncheon or whatever it is that that you
(01:02:30):
have to hand. And that Confucian ethic is
embodied. It's it's not just written on a
piece of paper, It's embodied inthe methods systems.
Oh, 100 percent, 100%. I was, I was listening to some
really interesting lectures on the Analects of Confucius very
(01:02:52):
recently. And very interestingly, the the
lecturer made the point that theAnalects were actually supposed
to be embodied. They're supposed to be recited,
but there's the the, and I'm notsuggesting that the, you know,
that there's a strong link between, you know, the
embodiment of the Analects of Confucius and, and, and the
(01:03:16):
forms. But yes, the ethic, the the
teachings are supposed to be done, supposed to be put into,
you know, it's supposed to be embodied.
I thought that was a very interesting point that the guy
out the the the Analects, they were supposed to be recited.
They were supposed to be put into action.
(01:03:38):
Lovely. I recall that quote from
Matsumura Sokan that you mentioned in one of the podcasts
on his philosophy and all that. I, you know, all this modern day
Algar I gouging and, you know, tearing at the throat.
It goes against to do any of that.
(01:04:02):
It would have horrified that that particular master or anyone
of his predecessors and contemporaries would have
absolutely horrified them. It's not about stomping on the
head and eye gouging, but it's adifferent culture.
So something that comes from Ming dynasty China does not fit
(01:04:26):
the requirements of modern nightclubs in in the West and
the requirements for self defence and the and the
expectations that some some haveand the way they want to skew
the the practise in that direction.
It's not in the form. It's not there just because the
(01:04:48):
hand case, just because the fingertips beer for the way she
Santa is a great example. Yeah, let's see you've got a
sigh there. It's not your fingertips and
even anyone that wants it to be an eye poke.
Yeah, sorry, folks, the height is all wrong.
So the the spear fingers in the Weichi sanction only go forward
at shoulder height. So you're the the your opponent
(01:05:11):
must be pretty short if you're, you know, you're Spearing into
nowhere. What are you Spearing?
His shoulder, his his pecs. It's the wrong height.
So one height. Yeah.
OK, Oh well, I forgot what I say.
(01:05:33):
What? So.
So concludes Sue, the Confucian ethos was a civic set of
behaviours like the British. Well, we have good morning, good
afternoon. How are you?
You know, I'm still amazed at how the politeness that I
experienced just to see experienced it today from two
(01:05:55):
people sort of head for the onescoming out of the supermarket
and I'm going in and, and there's this sort of rich, where
are you going? And there's the smile.
Oh, excuse me, Oh no, excuse me.It's almost Japanese.
It's and I, you know, I experienced that on a regular
basis. We all do here.
People apologise if you, if you've banged their trolley or
(01:06:17):
they bang yours. Two people end up apologising to
each other. That's, that's, that's my
example of, of, of English version of Confucian ethics or
ethical codes, ways that we behave within cultures.
If we then look at the another ingredient that, that, that we
have to consider in the, in the East, and that would be the
(01:06:40):
religious component. So quite a lot of Buddhism and,
and Taoism and I think, you know, to my knowledge that my,
my experience of Buddhism, I don't recall much violence
involved whatsoever. So we also have to consider that
(01:07:02):
as being part of the fabric of of the of the social structures
and and the cultural milieu fromwhich this material comes.
Nice. Yeah, so sorry folks, they are
anachronisms. Context, context context.
(01:07:28):
Yeah. So those are the main
differences between Okinawa and Caputo and the antique form.
Super. As we conclude this episode on
What is Kobudo? We've uncovered how many
contemporary Okinawan kobudo practises prioritise aesthetics
(01:07:49):
and choreography, diverging fromthe close quarters, combatively
effective techniques found in antique Qatar.
It's a vital distinction for serious practitioners, where
distance and function are paramount in real world
scenarios. A huge thank you to our
insightful speakers for sharing their expertise.
(01:08:10):
If you enjoyed this deep dive, please subscribe to our podcast,
leave a review and share it withfellow martial arts enthusiasts.
Thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome to Great Karate Myths, Debunking the
Legends. This episode we're tackling the
intricate question, What is kobudo?
Join us as we dissect Okinaw Kobudo, contrasting its modern
evolution and performance aspects with the combative
realities of antique weapon forms.
We'll discuss the historical context, key figures, and the
(00:27):
crucial concept of distance in martial arts application.
Let's get started. OK, so Tom's going to start us
off as we embark on this journeyto explore what is Kobudo.
Specifically Okinawan kobudo. From the shores of Okinawa.
From the shores of Okinawa, Yeah, gorgeous.
(00:50):
I've got a question to to sort of open it up and then I've got
some points to discuss. And so I'll kind of read out the
question or a point and then we can all comment and kind of move
around it and each bring in whatwe what we've got.
So Shanir brought this up and asa good question to kind of open
(01:12):
with. If we are saying that the
antique Qatar are generally for weapons, isn't this what Okano
and Kabuto is? So we are saying there are Sai
kata, there are Tom for kata, there are kata in dealing with a
bow. Isn't this what Okinawan Kabuto
(01:33):
is? Well, OK, I'll I'll without
wanting to be defensive, which now let us defensive, but we
didn't set out to to even practise Kabuto.
I wasn't particularly interested.
I know Matthew and Tom have excellent sawsman skills and the
(01:54):
closest I ever got to that Howard a Sensei at that time,
the show to who had some involvement with were using a
lot of booking for timing and distance.
So Howard a Sensei corrected my booking swing.
But that was about the best I'veever.
I wasn't particularly interestedin on records at all.
(02:15):
I was interested in punch strike.
What kick? In fact, Nakiyama Masatoshi
Sensei, the the the late chief instructor of the Karate
Association describe karate as if I get this right as being OK,
blocky Kerry peeking, Zuki punching and Uchi striking.
(02:40):
So he called it those four things as vacations.
You classify that way particularly best Kadathi theory
and that was how I saw Kadathi and weapons did not interest me
at all. It didn't but so I think we fell
(03:02):
into it. But and and what really turned
out to be more than a storm in ateacup was the reputation of the
of the waiti Sanchin. And then then the substance hit
the fat, so to speak. And then we saw the parallels.
(03:25):
So in my, this is just my opinion, my view.
I'm not saying it's a collectiveview here, but it's my view.
There's no real difference. But the the I don't want to
steal your Thunder, Tom. But the, the cobudo forms seem
to uncannily follow the patternsof the karate catter.
(03:47):
And I'm it's difficult these days for me as an individual to
really well, this is this is going to get me shot down in
flames to tell the difference. Oh, this Johnson, what kind of
idiot is he? Can't tell the difference
between and the and the karate catter.
But I'll rest there and let someone else develop that.
(04:10):
So I think that the the only thing that we share with Okinawa
and Kabuto and we don't practise, just to clarify, we
don't practise Okinawa and Kabuto, but the only thing that
we share is that we use the sameweapons.
But apart from that it's completely different.
And what you see in the Okinawa and Kabuto is the core karate
(04:34):
techniques, the OK Wazo, the block, the so-called blocking
techniques being performed emptyhanded with a pair of SI or with
tomfur and the kata are all generally, as Nathan's already
pointed out, very, very similar and most likely developed
alongside modern karate. So although you can find good,
(04:57):
you know, there's a quite a fairbit of history out there on
weaponry and weapon use in Okinawa.
The, the, the, the methods of modern Okinawa and Kabuto are
exactly that, probably a modern invention.
The methods that we find in the antique karate character, the
(05:18):
forms preserved in karate that were originally intended for
these weapons, the methods are completely different.
And so that suggests to me that the the way that the that the
weapons are used in Okinawa and Kabuto are that's evidence for
(05:39):
me for that it's they're a modern invention.
And I would suggest and I'll probably get in trouble for
saying this, that the Okinawan Kabuto wasn't developed out of
combative experience. And I think that the antique
methods as preserved in the Waitu EU and in the Shorin Roux
(06:01):
forms that were inherited from China were developed out of
combative experience. And there's a few points to
support that. So one of them is that the
distance used. So what you see in Okinawan
Kabuto are we're we're back there again, I'm afraid,
choreography, lots and lots of choreography.
But at they're consistently at aconsistent distance.
(06:24):
So you'll see a pair of PSI go up against a bow or a pair of
Tomfa go up against a bow and they'll generally the
choreography will generally takeplace at the operating distance
of the bow as opposed to where the the distance that the Sai
and the tomfur could be effective.
(06:44):
And it takes the same shape as lots of karate, karate kumite,
fixed kumite takes, which is oneperson attacks, there's a block,
a counter on, then perhaps another attack.
And you get this kind of step bySo the distance is really
(07:10):
problematic because what you find in the antique methods,
particularly with the PSI. So just using that as an example
from now in the weight you read,we've got the three forms.
The, the function of the PSI takes place very close quarters.
You know, you're, you can smell the person's breath, that's how
close you are. And that's where all of these
skills are operating. There's nothing in the antique
(07:34):
forms that indicates any kind ofexchange or, or you know, taking
place at the distance of a bow or a soiled or anything like
that. It's all about dominating at
close quarters where the sigh are going to be most effective.
You can employ the hooks depending on the which position
(07:56):
you have the sigh in and you know, strike at close quarters
and so on and so on. And the same with the tomfur.
So seeing a pair of tomfur applied against the bow in
Okinawan kabuto, you see it downat the distance where the bow's
effective and yet they're blocking strikes with the bow
and carrying and then countering.
(08:17):
And the antique method from China suggests that you start
really, really close and you stay there so that the bow has
no opportunity to be functional to to be employed in a really
powerful way. And so getting engaging at the
(08:38):
Bose distance, you're going to put yourself in real trouble.
Yeah, I'll stop there. And before I go to the next
point and and anyone else just jump in there.
Yeah, you've, you've summarised it perfectly, Tom.
The the interesting thing is that when I earlier said oh,
(09:01):
Kubuto, I see Kubuto and Karate Cata as being the same.
I was really only had in my headthe Waiti series Sanjin
Southeast San San Selyu. That's really what I had in mind
because they're commonly considered to be karate cata
globally. Yep, they're Karate cata.
The interesting that the the forms that use a a metal weapon
(09:26):
are either edged or otherwise. And in, in the, in the case of
the SI, it's, it's not edged. So it's not a sword, but it's
they used to pair. But the, the cattle will present
with a, a front foot toad in position in the same way that
you might find the wing tongue presents in, in its training.
And particularly with regard to the dummy, the the wooden man.
(09:50):
And I'm not saying they're the same thing, but you can see the
similarities and they are exactly as Tom describes.
And they would require closing the distance, pressing and
trapping and, and using leverageto trap and control and pin the
opponent and not to stand back and sort of offence like you're,
(10:10):
you're filming for a Robin Hood film, You know, it's, it's, it's
a completely different distance,as Tom suggests to those
described. And there are so many features
that show this on a on the boat,the the dangerous distance, the
(10:31):
distance that is an advantage but provides an advantage to the
bow wielder. This is completely wrong for the
sigh. It's it's the distance must be
closed. The person must be pinned and
trapped and prevented, not giventhe space to use their weapon.
(10:54):
Whether it's a a bokken, a sword, a beau, a Joe, doesn't
matter what it is. You know, anything that's slung
or can be slung has to be shut down before it can get going.
That's the whole point. Yeah, I think that's absolutely
right. It makes absolute common sense,
isn't it? That to close down the gap and
(11:15):
make it keep it in close? Yeah, makes sense.
I think it's detrimental to the practitioner to even bother
practising engaging a bow with apair of Tom Forsy at distance
because it shouldn't even be an idea that would be should be
entertained. The the problem, the the problem
(11:37):
of closing the distance isn't one for the cattle because
you've just got to run and get in.
You've got to get in close quickly and not engage.
As soon as you agree to engage at the distance where the bow's
affected, you're in big trouble.So yeah, that that choreography,
you know, again, is performativeit and it's sort of exists.
(12:00):
I mean, Matt touched on this last week, but it exists in its
own bubble. So you get highly skilled and
really lovely choreography with the weaponry, the exchanges, and
they're really, really effective.
But only within that bubble could they then free fight in
that way. Could they then, And I I would
(12:23):
suggest that you can't and it wouldn't.
They're not effective methods ofyou employing those weapons and
just go at the antique catter. Don't engage at a distance.
They start close and they stay close where that where those
weapons are their most, most effective, which suggests to me
(12:44):
that these methods were developed in in Okinawa and
highly influenced by probably kendo and kenjutsu.
So the engagement at a distance.So that the influence there of
Japanese swordsman ships and Japanese budo methods certainly
can be seen in Okinawa and kobudo.
And I think that they're methodsthat they've created with the
(13:06):
Sai and the Tom Franceau and arebrand new.
One piece of evidence for that is the is the way I'm using the
sigh as an example is the way the sigh are gripped in order to
create powerful leverage with the sigh.
What we found in the antique forms is that the grips are
(13:27):
completely different from the way that they are held in modern
Okinawa and Caberudo. And I would say that the way
that they hold it in the sigh inboth positions, as both standard
positions of holding the sigh are actually not very effective
at all. And you can't create powerful
(13:49):
leverage in that in the way thatthey're held.
And you also run the risk of damaging you leave a finger
vulnerable in one position and the tip of your thumb vulnerable
in the other one. So yeah, that that suggests to
me that they're new methods and that the methods from China
didn't arrive with the weapons or the Qatar, peculiarly in
(14:11):
Okinawa. Don't ask me to explain how that
happened because I've got no idea.
So I mean, when, when you say Okinawa, do we go step back
further and say the Royuku Kingdom?
You can do, yeah. Don't you know that that's sort
of within a timeline? More specifically, we're saying
(14:31):
it was the Royuku Kingdom at that time.
It was. Yeah, but it's really, it's
mostly Okinawa because we're talking about we're only talking
about a handful of people when we're not.
If we look at how much Kobudo Karrison is associated with
Matayoshi Shinko and later with his son Matayoshi Shimpo the
(14:58):
elder, the father, I think he was born in 18.
I may get this wrong so forgive me.
He's either 18861888. He's he's, but he was born in
1888 and I know he died Fina Koscijuchen since he died in 57.
Miyagi Charlton since he died in53 and I think Matthioshi died
(15:24):
in probably 47. So we're looking at this running
only from this is this materialsrunning contemporaneous with the
the creation of karate itself. So these things are so Mattyosi
(15:45):
was a a contemporary of of Funakoshi Dichen.
So they were both born in the 18yes, late.
This this material is late. I think that's my point.
It's it's really quite late and it's hard to find a lot of
Kobudu names. And as Tom says, it's just a few
(16:06):
names. And I think the other one who we
may might discuss is Tyra Shinken, who who who's also very
late and he figures quite prominently, but that seems to
be about it historically. It seems to me, and I'm not an
expert at this is not really my subject, but pretty much
(16:26):
everyone that that professes to have a lineage for within their
for their Co Budo practise tendsto be associated with one of
those two names. I think we've ended up with this
peculiar situation where Qatar have arrived from China that
(16:50):
were weapons forms without the weapons which inspired the
development of karate, which then inspired the development of
new weapons forms because those standard karate techniques are
employed with the Kobudo weapons.
So you can see pretty much the same material in Tyra Shinken's
book. You can see that that the the
(17:12):
Sai and the Tomfa forms are remarkably similar in the
technical content and don't in any way resemble the systems of
the antique forms. And so that's why I've, I'm
guessing that they were developed not from combative
experience, but as you know, developing alongside karate and,
(17:36):
and modern martial art methods in, in Okinawa and, and you
know, the, the neighbouring islands and so on.
And also for anyone that cares to look at this, we've got the
same the classic story. So yeah, Matthioshi, he, he does
(17:59):
the trip to China, he spent allegedly spent thirteen years
in China. And I'm not saying this is not,
this is untrue. I don't know it wasn't there,
but it's the same familiar storyas as you have with Higaciona
Kanro and and Waitsy Kambon. Now, obviously we know exactly
where Waitsy Kambon went. We got a very good idea of the,
(18:25):
of the Coon or the Dojo that he learnt that, that the three
waitchikata, the original 3 waitchikata, we, we would know
where he acquired those. And we, we, we suspect it's the
same kroon or Dojo that where Higashi on a canaro picked up
(18:48):
the same forms some 20 years earlier.
So we have a similar story, but I'm not sure with Matthioshi.
I think that that might be some somewhat of a smokescreen
because he as Tom's already said, these forms, these cobudo
forms strangely follow the something of the pattern of of
(19:17):
karate kata, but I did not so much.
And to my knowledge, they don't use the toad in foot of the so
they turned in stand the sanction that you find in the
Waitchi that that they seem to be more inspired by the by the
jury and I think. Ballistic exchanges.
(19:39):
Yes, ballistic, absolutely what we're already.
Rather than a kind of press trapin type.
Yeah, sorry. Go on, Nathan.
No, I've I've just digressed my case.
It's for now. It's a it's late as you say.
This is a founder who runs contemporaneous with Funokosi
(20:01):
Jigen Sensei, founder of it's. Very late in the 20th century
there's a massive explosion of new forms and Tyra Shinken was
someone that collated together as many different kata and
weapons as he could and formulated.
It's well documented he formulated forms to to be
(20:25):
representations of these weapons.
And so Kabuto really, really grew a lot in the in the
especially the mid and mid 20th century and beyond.
And this is still going on. So what you see now in Okinawan
Kabuto, there's some really, really highly skilled
(20:45):
individuals with very, very impressive choreography.
And you know, Matt, we talked last week again talked about
seeing very, very skilled people, but within within that
art. And so I think Okinawan Kabuto,
the methods not being developed from combative experience as the
(21:08):
antique methods were only exist effectively within that art.
And they don't extend beyond that in to say you couldn't take
those methods and they'd be affected methods for policing or
bodyguarding or palace guard, you know, or, or anything like
that as the antique methods. Most likely were, so that's
(21:32):
that's where you'll say that thefunction was lost.
So they without that function ofpolicing or darting.
Yeah, it's weird. It's it's really weird with
these weapons scatter with without the knowledge of the
function and but we've still gotthe weapons.
I mean, there is a greater history of the bow in our canal.
(21:53):
You know, there's, there's a lotmore development in that in
those methods and there's documented several people in the
late 19th and, you know, centurygoing to China to learn Chinese
staff methods. So and that's quite interesting
in it in itself. But yeah.
(22:14):
Yeah, Matt, go on. You want to jump in?
Well. I was just, I was just thinking
I the, I was thinking about the,the relationship between the
Okinawa and Kabuto and, and whatwe know of the, the Japanese
systems. And it, it strikes me and I, I
might be out on a limb here and,and need to wind my neck in, but
(22:38):
it, it seems to me that the, thecontext is really cultural
preservation. There are their, their
demonstration pieces, beautifully done and highly
skilled, but it's, it's about cultural export.
(22:59):
And we've mentioned some of these names in, in connection
with Funakoshi and, and of course Funakoshi who has
travelled to, to karate to, to Japan and to establish it there.
And so I don't, I don't think wecan ignore the influence of
trying to establish A cultural tradition that can be
(23:22):
demonstrated, presented to people.
And especially at that, at that sort of time, you know, the,
that part of the world was, was really quite devastated by, you
know, various conflicts that have gone on.
So I I think that's, that's worth considering outside of
that context, outside of demonstrating the choreography
(23:46):
of these things. Yeah.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not entirely convinced that that was
the the intent behind it was to establish a genuine combative
system. I might be wrong.
Oh. That's a lovely point, I guess.
Yeah, fantastic. That's an excellent, very well,
(24:09):
well made point and I couldn't agree more.
Cultural export. If you think of, no disrespect
to, to Okinawa and the Okinawans, if you think of
Japan, you've, you've got the samurai and you've got the, the,
it's in history, a long history.You know, you've got the Shogun,
the Shogun, you've got so much that everybody is.
(24:32):
And then when and of course in, in the later days, you've got
Okinawan exports like motor cars, for example, when, when it
comes to Okinawa, Oh yes, karate, Okinawa, the home of
karate. And I, I agree with you, Matt.
And I think that's quite, it's avery, very strong point that
(24:54):
it's a, the, I think it is a cultural product is unfair.
It's a they've they've, they've given themselves, they've
enhanced something that they received and and turned it into
a stable item of, of Okanowan culture.
(25:14):
I think. Good point.
Yeah, I think Patrick and Eurocombe, I think that's,
pardon me if I've got the name wrong, It's Patrick.
McCarthy's wife's translation ofTyra Shinken's book supports
that because there's a part in there where there's some
(25:36):
additional research that PatrickMcCarthy's done to there.
He talks a little bit about Irish Shinken's life and who he
was practising with and where hewas kind of researching and
collecting together all of thesedifferent kind of martial arts
that didn't quite didn't have Qatar, but and these different
(25:56):
weapons skills, little bits and pieces here and there.
So you find TECO, you know, knuckle dusters and you find a
fishing knife and a turtle ship.You know, they didn't have kata,
they didn't have systems attached to them, but they
certainly do have now. And so it's almost it's it's
creating a presentation of thoseultra relics, if you like, that
(26:20):
may or may not have been used for real.
We don't know. But there's, there's a, there's
a rich history of weaponry and things in Okinawa.
And you can find that we were talking about Mark Bishop's
research earlier and you know, Andrea's class certainly and
Patrick McCarthy as well have all written quite extensively
about it. So there's plenty of to, to in
(26:43):
terms of the development of it all.
But I suppose our main point is,is how does Okinawan Kabuto and
the weapons that it has compare with the antique methods?
And they're very, very, very different.
Well, I was just thinking then about the previous conversation
where we had about the theatre Would, would, would, would this.
(27:06):
Cultural export actually includetheatrics to as a as a means of
communicating it. I was just thinking that
Andrea's Quest wrote a book lastyear documenting lots of
different village bow bow methods and some of them are
(27:26):
purely performative so they would do damage the different
villages would do. I'm not sure if bowed dances are
the quite, quite the correct term, but theatrical certainly
performative, certainly. And, and there's records of
martial demonstrations being given and you can, and certainly
(27:50):
employing Cobudo weapons from the mid or the later 19th
century. There's 1867, I think it is.
And the, the, the outline of theperformances is, is, has been
preserved unfortunately. But I I don't doubt that content
was created to to demonstrate those weapons and create,
(28:14):
perform and perform performancesfor them.
Not. Just one thing.
But what? We're not going to know this
history like you do, but what point?
But at what point? Point does it become Chinese
Theatre is it after the docking now and stuff war before there's
probably one thing where it's transmitted and someone's picked
(28:36):
up and made it into a not to splice yes the Chinese Theatre
goes back hundreds if not 1000 ayears thousand a years and so I
think that was certainly influenced docking our own
culture and what you do in the way of the warrior series in one
episode they I think it is it Mario Higano Nathan he goes to
(28:57):
look at some Okinawan dance to compare the movements of karate
and it suggested that some methods were dance he gonna said
say Mario he gonna Mario but he's not the only one there were
many but. Also, Nagamina Shoshin discusses
it, but in an interview that he gave for Japanese television.
(29:21):
And in fact, he he does the samething as that he he got, he
gonna essentially did bridges toto to take the viewers to a
dance studio. And there's always to talk and
pardon my pronunciation because I I you know, I might my
Japanese is I could maybe order lunch or something same as my
(29:43):
Cantonese. I could order lunch and say
thank you and hello and so on. But and you cat in the moment
cater this whole idea of of there's a dance kata and that
the risk with all that is, is, is is to conflate karate kata
with dancing. And that's that's an easy
(30:05):
mistake. And and that leads to strange
things that assumptions that thedeadly martial arts movements
are hidden in dances. It's not a, that's not a hill
I'd like to die on in a, in a, in a debate, but I, I, I, I
think that whilst the dance willreflect the culture.
(30:29):
Just a quick aside here. In my view, Ming dynasty,
Chinese culture affected the entire region of the, of the Far
East, the entire region in the same way, in my view that Rome
affected the, the whole of Europe.
You know that that that's the way it worked.
And and so obviously the dances that one sees in Okinawa and are
(30:53):
going to reflect the the the culture that they've inherited
and have been developing. The the the idea that you know,
it's, it's it's it's a romantic idea to think that you've got
deadly muscle arts move hidden in dances.
Even there's a big stretch of the imagination.
(31:16):
That's a big that's a big ask. There's a big buy in you'd have
to do, you know, well, I could be wrong.
Maybe the Bolshoi could be seriously deadly fighters.
If they really, you know, revealed the the movements from
their from their dances and and employed them in fights.
(31:39):
Who knows, maybe they could you could, you could win AUFC
tournament with, I don't know, both side Ballet Rio.
That could be good. OK, yeah, sorry, pardon the
cynicism. I think that covers it quite
well. I was watching a SCI form the
(31:59):
other day and the one of the moves one of the techniques it
was a Nippon daci get a new key that that that standing on one
leg low block. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we see them in the Waitress series.
Yeah, but well, the difference is, is that when they in Okinawa
(32:22):
Kabuto, when they're using it, the position of the SI is that
they're holding it in their handand using the, the, the body of
the SI to, to block or parry. You know, while lifting the leg
in the Sasan, you're, you're leaping completely out of the
way. Yeah, you'll, you'll, you'll
create your braking distance before coming back in.
(32:43):
So you're not using that arm movement as an attempt to block
or parry. You're clearing yourself
completely out of the way of into it too much because it's
better seen than talked about. But a blade may be drawn or
presented or on its way out. So you get the hell out of
(33:04):
there, and the way of of throwing yourself back out of
the way involves using that typeof movement.
But that but that left arm that comes down as the left leg is
lifted, Isn't that a block? There's no, no, there's no
(33:24):
block. Or or protecting.
Protecting. Sort of.
No, no. Forget that.
It's a way of throwing your bodyout of the way.
So if you had your hands down byyour, if you had your hands down
by your side and you tried to jump back, what you're doing is
you're using torque and creatingmomentum so that you can really
(33:47):
throw yourself back out of the way.
There's no block. Yeah.
No. If you look at it all it's doing
so you've got one hand off in itlooks like a saluting position.
The other hand is, is flipped tothe back, but the leg is raised.
So you've removed three of the limbs that could be targets.
(34:09):
Obviously you have to stand on the other one.
So the whole leak back just draws the leg out of the way
and, and discovers you is, is just a very sensible thing to
do. It's just it it, it's it's when
the substance hits the fan and you you leak back out of the
way, which is why you can see inthe example given in, say, sand
(34:30):
cutter, you then close the distance again rapidly.
Because what what happens after that leak back is a re a quick
reclosing of the distance, big wide move forward movements to
get back in and and shut shut the shut the opponent down.
Yeah. And I think we're back to the
question of distancing here withthe with many of the Okinawan
(34:54):
Kabuto forms that you see demonstrated.
They're demonstrating, as Tom pointed out earlier, they're
demonstrating the the use of these weapons at what is it, You
know, if it's a bow, for example, at the effective
distance of a bow, it's incredibly dangerous to try and
get in the way of a swing of a bow, even with a metal rod on
(35:15):
your arm and block it. You know, and that's not what
the antique ATA preserve. They, they preserve getting out
the way and closing the distance.
And what what really makes thesethese antique forms different is
that closing the distance and everything in tight and probably
(35:38):
quite messy doesn't really lend itself to clean demonstration as
as the Okinawan Kabuto does it it just simply the aesthetics
are are all off for for demonstration purposes.
So I mean, you, you can see why the Okinawan Kabuto want to
(36:02):
preserve or or demonstrate some techniques with these weapons in
a very nice choreographed way with distances that people don't
necessarily question. You can see why, why, why they
would want to do that. Because it, it, it looks much
(36:23):
nicer. It makes the point for the
audience, not an accurate one, but it makes a point really.
In reality, these things are much more scrappy if you're, if
you're that close, as Tom pointed out earlier, if you're
that close to somebody, you know, everything happens in a,
(36:44):
in a, in a split second. And ideally, you're trying to,
you're trying to prevent limbs from moving that are holding
another weapon. And that, you know, that so much
can happen without an audience being able to discern what's
happening. So yeah, yeah, they're, they're
(37:06):
different. They're totally different in
flavour. And just following on from that,
I think what happens is on thoseperformative distances, you
start to get exactly the same problems that you have in
karate, which is if you're blocking a bow with a rising
block or a sweeping down block, a dead amber rye, how do you
(37:27):
know what the attack's going to be?
What's following it? What makes you think that you
could stop a full power swing ofa bow if you get it wrong?
Even if you can guess what the attack is, you know that you're
still going to get potential if you get massively injured and
(37:50):
and so on and so on. And you get the same repetitive
problems. The the the bad guy is the
person with the bow, the good guy is the guy with the Tom fur
or the sigh and the bow always loses.
You know yet that somehow they can confidently predict what the
half a dozen attacks are going to be, carry them all
beautifully, and then finish andwin.
(38:11):
I mean it's the same old stuff and it looks great.
It looks great is, you know, theskill levels are there with it
but within the bubble. So Ocndo and Kabuto can exist
within Okada and Kabuto, Could that translate into full contact
no holds barred? I doubt it.
And it's the same with karate. Karate looks fantastic.
(38:32):
A lot of the bunkai that was presented looks fantastic within
the choreography or these flow drills, which are long pieces of
choreography does, you know, again, and it's the same point I
made last week, how do you take those pieces of choreography and
it and it lead to spontaneity. And that's another core
(38:54):
difference with the Okinawan kabuto and the antique forms,
the antique methods. These antique systems are driven
to allow spontaneity and improvisation to be central to
it and so that's why it avoids choreography or flow drills and
all of that stuff. Whereas the the presentation of
(39:17):
the cater and the function and the training is essentially
choreography and Okada and kaboodoo.
So it's lacking in spontaneity or, or even a way of arriving at
that, which suggests to me that it's not combative in the 1st
place. Because if it was, if it was
rooted in real fighting with weapons and real experience with
(39:38):
weapons, it would be a given that you needed to be able to be
improvised. Because you, that would be the
first thing that you realise is that the chaos of it requires
it, demands it. So yeah, that's just for adding
to Matt's point there. Which is also.
Why they have no sparring? Yeah, well, there's there's kind
(40:01):
of it's they had in the last couple of years.
I've seen it. There's competitions of sparring
with bow, but they're kind of two shin eye strapped together
and they've got the kind of bogo, they've got the armour on
endo esque type armour. But again, it's the same problem
(40:21):
that karate has is that it's nothing like the katta, it's
nothing like the choreography it.
So you've got 3 completely different things going on there,
none of which seems to marry up well or lead to the spontaneous
ability to fight with the weapon.
(40:43):
You know, I think I think that the the choreographed pieces
could well lull people into a full sense of security with with
the use of of these weapons. It as, as you quite rightly
point out, Tom, the, the, the choreographed nature of it
doesn't, doesn't lead to necessarily being able to
(41:06):
improvise with these things. And in, in reality, it's, it's,
it's going to be quite scrappy. But one thing I, I think we,
well, it might be a, it might bea, a bit of a digression, but I,
I think it's worth just recalling that a, a, a great
deal has gone on before there's an engagement, You know, an
(41:30):
effective sigh operative has first of all, tried to de
escalate a situation. They've probably got themselves
in quite close. And if it erupts into the need
to actually subdue somebody and control their limbs, then the
negotiation hasn't, hasn't worked.
(41:50):
But you've, you've pretty much closed the distance at that
point and you've tried to talk them down, whoever it is that
that you're facing. And of course, you know,
demonstration, choreographed demonstration pieces.
Don't, don't take that sort of thing into that context into
consideration. It's very nicely, you know, sort
(42:14):
of a dual etiquette that's that's demonstrated.
We slowly approach each other. One person does one technique,
one person responds. I just I you know, we're back to
the the influence of cinema. Probably it it's it's very
(42:35):
performative and yeah, it it, itcertainly doesn't capture what
it was what that in altercation might actually.
Look like it all goes out the window as well if a third person
suddenly introduced and and that's a but that's a core
difference. The antique forms assume that
(42:58):
you might be working with someone.
So there is no jewelling, particularly when it's
bodyguarding or or policing or whatever.
And they're just suggested context.
But it I would be working, say for example, with Matt to disarm
someone. There's no jewel the way she
forms those. Those assigned method can be
(43:22):
worked with two people working together.
It's not a duelling method. It's not a one-on-one.
It doesn't lead to sparring or anything like that.
We need to be able to function together and that and that those
sort of those systems, if we both know the system, we both
know what each other's going to do depending where we are in
relation to the person and we are know what the struggle is
(43:44):
going to be so we can work to mutually support each other.
And you don't see that in the Okinawa and Kabuta.
And I've, I mean, I might be wrong, but I've never even seen
it suggested that, you know, youwould need two or three to take
down one person with a bow which, or a spear, which, you
know, which is, you probably would need that.
(44:06):
Yeah, that. That's a great point because I
mean, that's the same in karate.It's always, it's always a duel.
It's always one-on-one. I've you've never see two on
one, whether it's MDI Hand or Kabuto, you never see this as
functionals in that same way. And I think that that's evidence
(44:31):
that the karate and the kabuto were fundamentally developed
alongside in parallel and and that and that it's all
relatively modern stuff because it's all the same.
It's the same techniques, armed or unarmed, and they have
exactly the same problems. It's a bit like policing, isn't
(44:51):
it? When you see them arresting
somebody and it's usually three or four officers to take down
one person, isn't it? Never.
It's never a jewel. They're not that stupid, aren't
they? It's exactly, exactly the
inverse proportions that we're used to.
So the the usual, the old fashioned explanations, I mean,
it's changed a lot now since, since I began training.
(45:14):
But the explanations for the, the Embu, you know, the floor
pan plans and what they catered.Yeah, multiple opponents and the
Japan Party Association demonstrated them at great
length demonstrated that in in multiple videos and
publications. So the idea is it's 11
(45:38):
individual. He's the hero and income the
first bad guy and he's dealt with and then the second bad.
Of course, on our film, we showed what really happens when
everyone when when the chap doing a very neat techie
application block and punch in in facing the next one.
(45:59):
I think all credit to Andy, who did it exactly in in the way
that the JKAJKA did it. And then we showed the a
slightly more realistic scenariowhere everyone just jumps on him
at the same time and and and bundles him to the ground.
I think the reality is it's not that one lone person fighting
(46:22):
against several bad guys, a little little coterie of thugs,
but you've it's actually the other way around.
It's the exact, it's the inverseof that.
It's it's the arresting officers, you know, should
outnumber the miscreant. And it's interesting that we
(46:42):
hinted as much with the Knight Hansen that the two stages where
there's the either the double licker Tay or the OR, or or what
we call the fortress position, either side where the person is
held, they can be tied at that point, which indicates that you
should pretty well have a colleague working with you.
(47:05):
Lovely. So I have a have a speculative
question with regards the the antique.
Let's just stick with the SI forms for the moment.
If you're if you're a SI operative, you're obviously
choreographed cater not the way to go, not not the way to go to
(47:29):
prepare for this kind of engagement.
Using the site so speculatively,how do you think the the the the
actual the practise of trapping limbs and striking limbs could
actually be practised with some kind of feedback?
Just just a speculative question.
(47:51):
I wonder if you had any ideas? Well, I, I, yeah, I mean, I
think, you know, you can practise, for example, putting,
putting the hooks on someone's wrist and then getting them to
resist. You don't need to practise
hitting them. You can hit a post or you can,
you know, you can do practise. You're hitting on that.
(48:11):
It doesn't require someone to hit the arms, but the kind of
the the struggle you can practise quite simply.
And that may have been and we'vealso got to consider that not
every single encounter is going to be an all out fight.
It might simply be that the hookgoes on the wrist, leverage in A
(48:35):
twist is applied and that's enough for the person to give
up. The police don't always have to
wrestle someone to the ground, but a knee behind the back of
the neck and then twist their arms up.
Sometimes they just take hold ofthe wrist and turn them towards
a wall or something and the person will allow them to be.
So there's the degrees of cooperation.
(48:57):
Again, it's, you know, what you see in the extended choreography
pieces is that somehow every single incident of policing is
an all out battle. If that was the case, USI
operatives would retire pretty quickly because you've only got
so many fights. Yeah, how how many times can
they engage with weapons and notbecome seriously injured?
(49:20):
So I, I think that that you can practise and lots and lots of
these things, lots and lots of aspects of these systems with
resisting people and get a feel for it.
And you will have been accumulating that real life
experience. And there's, there's also the
(49:41):
simple fact that if there's two of us taking on one person, it's
far simple. The struggle is completely
different. And if there's three of us, it's
even easier. If there's four of us, it's even
easier. So the idea of it being on a
one-on-one battle Royale is, is a kind of is a modern one that
(50:03):
we see in martial arts. And you know, not everything is
going to be UFC title fight. Some of it's going to be very,
very simple, but effective application of the skills.
So the, the sense of distance, Iknow where I need to be.
That's input. I know what how close I need to
be. I know where I need to cover.
(50:24):
I know what position the sign need to be and how to make
contact. And it might be something like
pressing on the limb, I might becreating a bridge using leverage
with the Scion and someone's upper arm and covering the
bottom arm with a hook just to just to while I speak to them.
Something along those lines and,and building your sense of where
(50:49):
you know where you are in relation and how you're working
with the person. That's how the system's applied.
And I think just a long winded answer to your question, Matt,
but you can practise lots of those qualities and elements
very easily and, and, and engagewith very high amount resistance
to get lots of lovely feedback. But again, we're practising
(51:09):
recreationally. So we're missing the most vital
ingredient, which is the the real experience which would
allow, which would facilitate the application of these skills
in a highly stressed environment.
So you're going to have all the adrenaline and all of that stuff
that you have to experience lotsand lots of times in order to be
able to function effectively, which we don't have
(51:32):
recreationally. So yeah.
Yeah, I, I, you know, I think it's, it's worth just returning
to that point that the again, sticking with the the sigh Cata
that they don't those the techniques recorded in the cata
don't prescribe death dealing blows.
You're not smashing somebody over the head.
(51:56):
You're trying to maintain peace and order in as dignified a way
as you can. So again, you know, the, the,
the influence of, of choreographed kata where some
techniques that are demonstratedmost certainly would end in and
(52:19):
you know, somebody expiring or or very seriously injured and
that and that. And as you say, there's a sigh
operative. You probably wouldn't last very
long if you if you went around smashing people over the head
with your metal pronged weapon. That's yeah, it's, it's, it's
(52:42):
not the purpose. You're not trying to cave
someone's head in. Again, cultural context.
You'd find a very different method if if you're using the
tip of the side to stab into theeyes or throat or you were
hitting the skull or vulnerable areas, you'd see very, very
different, a very, very different method.
(53:03):
So one of the things that shapedthe the system of side use found
in those forms is, is the is themoral and ethical components as
you've just described there. There's a consideration there of
not killing someone, of not doing perhaps or trying to avoid
permanent or serious damage, which then kind of it, it goes
(53:25):
towards shaping how you can do that and be very, very effective
still within your. Role Well I I would suggest that
the the Ninja Turtles have got alot to answer for probably.
(53:48):
This is one thing as well that you do see in Okinawa and Kabuto
that you never see in the antique forms, which is throwing
a sigh. You never throw, don't ever
throw it away. Yeah, because someone else could
just pick it up and use it against.
Yeah, I think, I think, I think the antique methods are really,
(54:10):
really interesting because you, they would have been used under
the, you know, those highly stressed conditions.
But they still had to have some restraint.
They had to have some develop control because it, if you're
frightened or, you know, in, in serious danger, it'd be quite
(54:31):
easily to refer to brutal methods and 'cause, you know,
permanent damage or death. And so to the practises, you
know, ask the the practitioner to be effective, but restrained
at the same time. It's, it's really interesting.
(54:51):
It's completely different from the modern day applications,
unarmed or armed, where you know, everything's no holds
barred. Everything is poke them in the
eye, kick them in the groyne, break their arm, head, butt, you
know, stab, stab, stab, stab, stab back, back, back, back.
These these methods speak to ethics and and morals in civil
(55:15):
society. And I think that makes them
really interesting to explore. You know, and practising those
methods shapes the way that you engage as well.
So by not hitting that to the head, by not violently engaging
in extreme ways, the more you practise it, it you embody, you
(55:40):
embody the ethic, it becomes something that's alive in your
way that you engage. One final point for me, the the
other thing that is very apparent in the weighty series,
we've already described the leakback, which is the when the when
(56:02):
you're in trouble. But apart from that, if you look
at it in the same page, ring Tung, ring Tung forms no
backward steps through, through,you know, through three forms,
Silum Tao, Tom Q Bugi and the dummy, no backward step, only
sideways. And when you look at the
original Weichi Sanchin, no backward step, even when they
(56:27):
close with the three more RussiaUK, it's quite different from
Miyagi Sensi's Sanchin, which does step backwards.
The weightiest version does not step backwards, but only will
ever go forward and it goes to the side to, to to, to, to
finish. But it's effectively it's not
(56:47):
stepping back. And because you, if you're
trying to close, why would you be stepping back?
So the, the, the object is to isto close and press and control
the limbs. And just to add to that, there's
and our old friend Knight Hanshin Katter.
There's no backward step. There's no backward step.
(57:11):
It never steps back. You, you, you know, it doesn't
step back. It takes the person to the side
and it maintains the control, but it does not step back.
If you're going to have a style that's like fencing, you have to
have parry ripos, step back, step in backwards and forwards.
No, those cater don't do that. Yeah.
(57:35):
It's quite different. For instance, I, I, I keep
getting and I do apologise to you guys, I keep getting.
I've said on a couple of occasions that I've referred to
Chinto potentially being a Tom for Katter.
(57:55):
What I meant was Gojushiha and it's TomTom.
Tom did remind me of that in a conversation, say he didn't
criticise me for it, but I, I, Igot got them mixed up.
But it, it, it, it would be takea look at the cat stance and
Tom's the one to really let everyone know how that works.
(58:17):
It's it what we're really talking about is pinning,
trapping, closing and monitoringlimbs and damaging limbs.
So the these, these, these, these tools, these weapons are
designed to inflict, to prevent the person to control their
(58:38):
violence. And, and, and you have to close
them down, you know, a point we can't stress enough.
You have to shut them down and restrict the, the amount of
changes or techniques that they can produce or violence that
they can generate. They can't do that when they're
all gummed up and jammed up and their limbs are pinned and
(58:59):
trapped. And also where, you know, you've
inflicted a swift hit with what's effectively a, an iron
truncheon, you know, a whack on the wrist from that or the elbow
that's getting of course, of course, you, of course, the
other guy a problem. You know you can't do that from
six feet away. I think as well, Nathan, people
(59:24):
massively underestimate how effective a bash on the arm from
a tomfool. So he is.
I mean it's I mean it's it mightnot be enough to stop you, but
it might be enough to make you stop and think.
I don't fancy any more of that. I just I remembered Matt and I
were training in Jodo and we dida we were doing a course on
(59:46):
Tanjo, the short stick. And I've got my my timing and
distance it wrong. So I took a hit to the head with
a tan joke from Matt and that isenough.
And it's only a very, very lightone, but that Matt was very
controlled. That was enough.
I never ever want that again Andsay I just think even when
(01:00:10):
demonstrating with the term for the sigh or working with
someone, you have to be very, very careful because very, very
light shots. Are really excruciatingly
painful or can be when I know someone's going to be a dream
realised and will get well, you know, that's not going to stop
someone in the full fight. But it'd be surprised how little
it takes to stop someone in their tracks and go, OK, and
(01:00:34):
then that's what we're speaking to as well.
Then it's again, as I reiterate,it's just it's not all a battle
Royale. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that the, the battle
Royale scenario as you, as you phrase it, is, I think that's a,
a peculiarly modern and totally out of context mentality.
(01:01:00):
Yeah. I, you know, there's so, so many
sort of bunkai, you know, back to the empty handed karate stuff
that I see demonstrated, which is, is it's well, it's almost
vile. It's, it's really horrible
stuff. You know, you've got people
mimicking sticking thumbs in other people's eyes and, you
(01:01:23):
know, gouging and clawing away at faces and elbows in faces and
all this, this, this approach that comes from, seems to come
from the idea that it's just completely unfettered violence.
(01:01:43):
Most, and you know, Nathan, you make this point in, in the great
karate myth, most people, with the exception of a very few
psychologically disturbed people, don't really want all
our violence. It it's not, it's and it's and
especially, especially with a system that is heavily
(01:02:07):
influenced by Chinese Ming culture, which is highly
conservative and highly Confucian, as amongst other
things, maintaining social orderand harmony is, is, is the first
priority, not brutalising somebody and smashing their head
in with an iron truncheon or whatever it is that that you
(01:02:30):
have to hand. And that Confucian ethic is
embodied. It's it's not just written on a
piece of paper, It's embodied inthe methods systems.
Oh, 100 percent, 100%. I was, I was listening to some
really interesting lectures on the Analects of Confucius very
(01:02:52):
recently. And very interestingly, the the
lecturer made the point that theAnalects were actually supposed
to be embodied. They're supposed to be recited,
but there's the the, and I'm notsuggesting that the, you know,
that there's a strong link between, you know, the
embodiment of the Analects of Confucius and, and, and the
(01:03:16):
forms. But yes, the ethic, the the
teachings are supposed to be done, supposed to be put into,
you know, it's supposed to be embodied.
I thought that was a very interesting point that the guy
out the the the Analects, they were supposed to be recited.
They were supposed to be put into action.
(01:03:38):
Lovely. I recall that quote from
Matsumura Sokan that you mentioned in one of the podcasts
on his philosophy and all that. I, you know, all this modern day
Algar I gouging and, you know, tearing at the throat.
It goes against to do any of that.
(01:04:02):
It would have horrified that that particular master or anyone
of his predecessors and contemporaries would have
absolutely horrified them. It's not about stomping on the
head and eye gouging, but it's adifferent culture.
So something that comes from Ming dynasty China does not fit
(01:04:26):
the requirements of modern nightclubs in in the West and
the requirements for self defence and the and the
expectations that some some haveand the way they want to skew
the the practise in that direction.
It's not in the form. It's not there just because the
(01:04:48):
hand case, just because the fingertips beer for the way she
Santa is a great example. Yeah, let's see you've got a
sigh there. It's not your fingertips and
even anyone that wants it to be an eye poke.
Yeah, sorry, folks, the height is all wrong.
So the the spear fingers in the Weichi sanction only go forward
at shoulder height. So you're the the your opponent
(01:05:11):
must be pretty short if you're, you know, you're Spearing into
nowhere. What are you Spearing?
His shoulder, his his pecs. It's the wrong height.
So one height. Yeah.
OK, Oh well, I forgot what I say.
(01:05:33):
What? So.
So concludes Sue, the Confucian ethos was a civic set of
behaviours like the British. Well, we have good morning, good
afternoon. How are you?
You know, I'm still amazed at how the politeness that I
experienced just to see experienced it today from two
(01:05:55):
people sort of head for the onescoming out of the supermarket
and I'm going in and, and there's this sort of rich, where
are you going? And there's the smile.
Oh, excuse me, Oh no, excuse me.It's almost Japanese.
It's and I, you know, I experienced that on a regular
basis. We all do here.
People apologise if you, if you've banged their trolley or
(01:06:17):
they bang yours. Two people end up apologising to
each other. That's, that's, that's my
example of, of, of English version of Confucian ethics or
ethical codes, ways that we behave within cultures.
If we then look at the another ingredient that, that, that we
have to consider in the, in the East, and that would be the
(01:06:40):
religious component. So quite a lot of Buddhism and,
and Taoism and I think, you know, to my knowledge that my,
my experience of Buddhism, I don't recall much violence
involved whatsoever. So we also have to consider that
(01:07:02):
as being part of the fabric of of the of the social structures
and and the cultural milieu fromwhich this material comes.
Nice. Yeah, so sorry folks, they are
anachronisms. Context, context context.
(01:07:28):
Yeah. So those are the main
differences between Okinawa and Caputo and the antique form.
Super. As we conclude this episode on
What is Kobudo? We've uncovered how many
contemporary Okinawan kobudo practises prioritise aesthetics
(01:07:49):
and choreography, diverging fromthe close quarters, combatively
effective techniques found in antique Qatar.
It's a vital distinction for serious practitioners, where
distance and function are paramount in real world
scenarios. A huge thank you to our
insightful speakers for sharing their expertise.
(01:08:10):
If you enjoyed this deep dive, please subscribe to our podcast,
leave a review and share it withfellow martial arts enthusiasts.
Thanks for listening.
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