May 8, 2025 • 33 mins
Back from our hiatus, we have fellow senior instructor for Ko-do Ryu, Kev joining us.
In this episode we talk about the recent release of Nathan's, 'The Great Karate Myth'. First published in 2006 and causing controversy over its claims, we find it is still controversial nearly 20 years later.
We answer the burning question, "Where's the Evidence!?"
In this episode we talk about the recent release of Nathan's, 'The Great Karate Myth'. First published in 2006 and causing controversy over its claims, we find it is still controversial nearly 20 years later.
We answer the burning question, "Where's the Evidence!?"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Great Karati Myths Debunking the Legends, a podcast
that chopped through the forest of martial arts folklore to
reveal the.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
True essence of karate.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Join us your hosts Shineer, Nathan and Tom as we
take you on a journey through the dojo of Doubt,
where we question the tall tales and test the traditions
that have shaped karate as we know it, from the
mystical to the misunderstood. We break down the myths that
can build up the facts. But don't worry, the bunking
doesn't mean it's respecting the art. We'll be celebrating the
(00:35):
rich history of karate while setting the record straight. Whether
you're seasoned black belt, a novice starting your karate path,
or just a curious listener, prepare to have your preconceptions
shattered and your understanding of karate deepen. So tie up
your belts, oow in and let's get ready to rumble
with truth. Welcome back to Great Karati Myths Debunking the Legends.
(01:08):
We've been on a bit of a hiatus for a year,
so we're back. First episode back. So we've got Nathan,
keV and Tom and myself Shaneer and we've got some
exciting news. We've got the Great Karati Myth has been
republished in paperback. It's available on Amazon in all marketplaces.
(01:32):
It has a kindle so digital.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Former and paperback.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So we're going to take talk some talk about about
the subject.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Do you want to open? Well, I thought we talk
about something that came upon the Reddit feed that you
started seer, which was a comment I can't remember the
name of the person you mentioned, but they said, where's
the evidence? And so it might be a good place
to start, actually where the the book and the practice
(02:01):
actually meet and how important it is to really have
both and not just have the book or just the practice.
So yeah, I think that would be a good good bit.
Where's when's the evidence for it? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So the question question that was posed was the question
was about san Chun's historical role. So our focus on Sanchin, say,
so we said, you know, Sanjin catters were not mere exercises,
they were practical tools for weapons defense and peacekeeping. And
(02:37):
the questions was what's your perspective on Sanchin's historical role?
Common theme skepticism, you know, as we as we have
had in the past. The common question was well, where's
the evidence?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, well the could I cut in here for a second. Yeah, okay,
I don't know if it's true or not. But when
the apple fell from the tree and Elisade or Newton
maybe honest hell whoever it was the Newton? Yeah, oh yeah,
that's gravity. I think the issues that people have are
(03:15):
with the terminology, with the names, particularly with the terminology.
So you know, the apple fell down downwards. You know,
that's quite a good, you know, reason to hypothesize that
there's something called gravity that tends to make things fall down,
you know, and that's kind of where we're grounded. I
(03:38):
won't develop that any further and pass it back, thank you.
That following on from that, the kata, the catter Roller
primary sources of evidence. So if you know, people say
where's the evidence, it's in the kata. So really, to
get a good perspective on the research in the group
is to come and actually experience the kata, to come
(03:59):
and see what has been sort of unraveled really from
a lot of work, and that really enforces the secondary sources,
which is the history. And you know what we get
a lot in the karate world is people talking about
the kind of book history first, and they're making decisions
(04:21):
about the practice and what the category is and what
what it all should be from the book history. And
really I think that the approaches in our group is
that it's the other way around. It's the cata first
and then the history follows. What an excellent point. Yeah,
the catter Actually there's a great point on because the
(04:44):
category is actually the book, the book in physical movement
rather than in words and letters. It is actually the
catalog of evidence. Yeah. Yeah, the Santurn's a good one.
We've talked about that at quite a fair bit already,
but it's, you know, what's been The Sanchin predates karate.
(05:09):
It predates the kind of the life and shape it
took in Okinawa, and so the book history in terms
of Okinawan karate has no real contribution to really understanding
what Sanschin was for You have to really just go
to the kata. You can't start with the history there.
You can see what took place afterwards, after the functions
(05:32):
have been lost or not transmitted, you know, And that's
that's something we can go into as well, and the
different you know, usage and different applications that we've given
later on. But really our starting point is always with
the kata itself, and then once we've kind of found
(05:53):
a lead or a thread to pull on and got
and exploring the original functions, dipping dipping our toes into
the book history can sometimes be useful and helpful to
see where things have gone later on. But in terms
of the original function of catas are the primary source. Absolutely.
(06:14):
But one of the problems that we're dealing with and
in terms of the books and the so called history,
is we're suggesting something that seems to be quite well,
it's quite radical, and yeah, why would a bunch of
(06:35):
people from England, from the UK have But you know,
how can these people namely asked, claim to you know,
or make the claims that we do when when it
seemingly the rest of the world, particularly the japan and
can now and don't profess the same understanding? What is
(06:57):
it that? Why is it? Why should you know these
people in in England, in the UK you know, pipe
up and you know challenge the you know, the entire
quote received wisdom or Nathan tell us it was an
open question, but okay it was it wasn't a rhetorical question.
(07:20):
But there's too much attention paid to super to appearance,
to to whether you where you come from or whether
you you know, how can somebody that's not Chinese or
Japanese or or can now and understand that you know
the intricacies of this. But what we're dealing with here
(07:43):
is a language left to us in movement. It's not
a it's not a it's not a vocal, it's not
a dialectical thing. It's not about what language we speak
or what continent even we live on. It's it's not
that it's a tech pickle matter. And you can can
(08:04):
anyone determine given that the functions clearly were lost, and
that's that's a whole discussion itself. Can anyone look at
the mechanics of this, the engineering, And that's what we've done.
We've looked at the engineering at the construction, and that's
formed the basis for our understanding and just just does
(08:27):
this little a bit if you look at San Chin,
given the hyperbole that surrounds it, you know, the preparation
for unarmed combat, you know what a strange way to
you know, ask any good boxer or kickboxer or m
M a person you know, would they prepare for combat
(08:49):
with a with a you know, with this strange sort
of sequence of movements, you know, would would that be
a way to to prepare for yeah, all out and not?
You know, no holds barred conflicts. You know, that's a
rhetorical question. The answer is vatently no, it's not. Therefore,
(09:11):
you know, a starting point is to suggest that there
must be something else going on there. There's a system
in place within that CATA structure, and what we've said
more than hypothesized, we've demonstrated there's actually a weapons based form.
Much of the shaggering of people who don't care for that,
(09:33):
who who were raised on the same stuff. You know,
if I've been involved in this subject fifty years is
actually it's longer than fifty years my entire adult life.
I've devoted the most part of my adult life to
this very subject, and that in itself, I'm not claiming
deserves any merit. What I am saying here is sanchin
(09:57):
cutter as it presents well, it's observed to imagine or
to suggest that that is the primary preparation for a
no holds barred conflict to any form of unarmed self defense,
because it patently is not and that sort of and
(10:18):
you just highlighted the assumption that's sort of across the
board really that all of the antique forms of forms
from China are all for unarmed fighting. It's just an assumption,
you know, when the suggestions made that it could be
something else. How could it ever be anything else? There's
(10:39):
no way it's you know, how would you know? And
so on and so on. We don't start with the
assumption that it's for unarmed fighting. We don't start with
any assumption. Is taking the technical content of an antique
form and saying what could you do with it? What
could be done with it? And well, for all of them,
really a street fight or an unarmed you know, altercation
(11:05):
or anything like that, it doesn't. I can't think of
a single antique form that has anything that would be
that useful for a street fight or a no holds
barred right, So if it's if it's not that, then
what is it? And that's that's that's a good starting
place to look at these these form just putting aside
that assumption that it's unarmed and well, what could it be?
(11:28):
What do these shapes? What do these movements do? How?
What what are they efficient? For how why is this
a good way to use the body and what for.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
If my my own perspective of training in various answers
that people didn't actually ask those questions.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
They just didn't. They just they just they just bought
the line. You expect someone to know what they're talking about,
don't you, So if they say it's something, yeah, that
is that's genuinely that's my that's my experience. So yeah, yeah,
care for me.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
In your background has been in before four codo you
yours just been Lauga goju wing.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, yeah, we did the sansin. We did that.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
We did it good people belting, you know, slapping your
legs and slapping your stomach and all that stuff and
all the dynamic tension stuff. No, no, remember it will
I mean, what about what about the.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You know, the question where people say it makes less
sense as a weapon because there's many Chinese versions of
sanchin available to study and none of them are secretly weapons.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Catter. Yeah, but well, I mean it's an interesting question
because and it is something that's quite involved to answer
it because those sanchins came later and what you know,
was there a prototype one and it seems like it
(13:07):
seems like that they're there was one that was a
foundation thrill and it's found its way into waits you
with you. And why is it the prototype? Well, it's
it's technically every single movement has a very specific function
geared towards training the use of manipulation of a pair
(13:29):
of sye. There's no frills and there's no additional flourishes
or anything like that. Everything is quite is very very specific,
and it's complete in many respects. And so though there
is you know, development of of the of the function
(13:54):
as sanction, even in China, so you'll find that once
the functions are lost there, the forms carry darned and
were taken and spliced together with other kung fu styles
and martial arts styles and theatrical styles and all the
rest of it, and you get these lots and lots
of different, you know, types of kung fu. What do they?
(14:15):
You know? None of them seemed good answers for what
their forms are actually for or where they come from.
Nathan joined jumping on that. I do. Indeed, I think
we covered that that the these styles just seem to
have arisen as allegedly as unarmed self defense. I think
(14:41):
what needs to be made clear at the moment is
the disasters that happened in China during the Ming dynasty.
When the Ming dynasty fell sixteen forty four forty five,
they had every disaster you can imagine. Not only do
(15:02):
they have the most horrendous dynastic change through civil war,
but they also had plague and disease and politic famine
on a massive scale. And you know, we can look
at this and recognize this may well be the time
when much of the material and the thinking and the
(15:26):
understanding was lost. So you know, I don't know how
to put this, but the finer things in life go
down the tubes when when you know, when the substance
hits the fan. I'm a good example, and I'm I'm
both of my parents were saying. My mother was experienced
the Nazi German bombing and my father was on a
(15:53):
a mind sweeper in the last year of World War two.
So I'm very close to the experience of of World
War two, you know, thinking and and and you know,
my my you know, my mum came I can remember,
you know. So I'm just one generation down from people
who were bombed and rationed and who went to war
(16:15):
and and and that's completely different from the experience that
you know, my kids have now. They are so far
removed from that. We were even further removed from the
chaos and the disaster that happened at the fall of
the Ming dynasty when a lot of this material was
(16:39):
was lost. See the fact that you know it was
the san Chin was a weapon form that's got completely lost.
It got lost in not just the mists of time,
but the the the the travail and the difficulties that
(17:03):
all of the people who passed it on went through,
you know, in the seventeenth century. So what they did
manage to do, which bearing in mind that the traditional
Confucian Chinese society of the period was incredibly intensely conservative,
(17:23):
not in the way that we would understand or conservatism
has been expressed, for instance, in the UK, but in
the sense of the preservation of tradition and tradition many people,
traditions are preserved. Quite often many adherents to those traditions
(17:44):
don't actually know why they're following the rituals and behaviors
that they do, because those traditions can become and do
become obscure, but people will still follow them. This is
the case for the Kata, This is the case for
that aspect of Confucian Chinese culture. They preserved the forms.
(18:11):
They they preserved them through thick and thin, through revolution,
through disaster, through famine and disease, and there's still somebody
carried on and passed down the forms even though the
purposes were lost.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Can't agree with that, Yes, logical, Just follow what I've
been taught to do and carry on, don't question.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I think when you see as well, in the Ching
dynasty that followed Theming, I think you find that the
origins of lots of these so called Fujinese boxing styles
hung through styles like white Crane and Mantis and pac May,
and they seem to have got some shool in legends
(18:58):
attached to them. The probably a lot of it can
kind of parallels the the uprisings that we're taking place
to overthrow the Ching, and so that's where you probably
find the roots of all these different styles and why
there are so many different sand Chins, and they borrowed
from or existing material.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I think also one of the other's misunderstandings that that
that I see is being made is that the assumption
that Sanchin has all the techniques to counter the weapons.
It's not it's the it's the it's the basic training catter,
it's the basic drill to manipulate the site. It's not
(19:43):
the one that tells you what to do in when
countering another weapon or countering another a staff or a boat.
HM that comes after. That's in say San and Sansereio.
And I think that's what I've see is is questions
(20:04):
around well, you know, they can't see how you know
the kata that has a minor set of techniques and
basically one stance, How does it? How does it counter
the weapons?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
It doesn't really counter them, no, none of it. It's
not really react. They don't really. There are no scenarios
in any of the cata. There's no like if A
does this, then B responds like this, there's not that.
That doesn't exist because it's impossible to record anything like that,
because there's too many variables and too many possibilities. That
(20:38):
the kata are all proactive, which means you're going first,
and what you've got is a set of things that
you can do in terms of going first. And so
the idea of the size, very very simple, is to
trap and pin the limb with one and strike with
(20:58):
the other the intention of disarming. So you're not hitting
the head, you're not really, you're not hitting the spy
and it's all very much directed at the limbs. That so, yeah,
it's pin, trap and strike really and that's what underpins
all of it in terms of the three forms preserved
in the way. But there's no scenarios, there's no there's
(21:22):
there's there's no choreography because you can't call it. You
can't do that hum and the sanchine is the basic
training of how to manipulate the side.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, and that and that's it, isn't it it's it's
I think, I think for for generations we've been it's
it's been stuck in this self defense.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
It's the defense. Yeah, and it's not, it's it's the mistake.
The big mistake is that it's it's been it's been
presented as something that's unarmed, and it's it's not. And
so in terms of providing evidence, I've got to say
(22:05):
something here. The best expedition of sanser you of how
that should be used with a pair of s eye
I've ever seen, was demonstrated to me by Tom I
didn't really. I worked on the San Chin and the
Ceysan and and I turned over my findings to the
group and and Tom pursued them assiduously, and he came
(22:33):
We went to to try to train h next village
from where I live when Tom came to visit and
he showed it to me. And I've never seen anything
that good in terms of what the san you does. No,
(22:54):
I you know, I I would. I don't gamble, but
if I did, I would bet everything I had on
what he demonstrated is is correct. And although this might
not be completely to Tom's liking, a good example though,
of his trap and pit and the purpose of the
(23:14):
site can be seen. And in a demonstration that goes
back nineteen years, we've been at the some time as
a group and as friends at that senny in the UK,
which was a UK celebration of British sports, and I
(23:39):
think we were at the National Exhibition Center in if
I'm not mistaken, and Tom and his colleague Matt demonstrated
the sigh against the Bocan and I've still yet to
see anything that good. This isn't a praised Tom session.
It's just the fact that, yeah, that shows you know,
(24:02):
and I'm sure that Tom would elaborate on that and
breathe upon that and have other ways of showing that. Fine,
but still today that is the best demonstration of what
the sign was designed to do. That's actually in my
view on camera. Just to add something quickly to that
(24:26):
that the demonstration it looks like, although I've just said
the techniques are not reactive, we put that choreography together
to present the techniques, so it looks like we're doing
reactive things. But it's just a way of demonstrating the techniques.
But you can't really do any choreography with it. You
would just have to do it and it would be
(24:47):
a bit it would be a bit messy, and it
would be a bit ugly, and you might, you know,
muck it up and get it wrong. But the techniques
kind of you're kind of given a map of the
territory where you if you're on the corner or to
the side of a person, you know what to do
because you're so familiar with with the thought, with the practice,
(25:12):
and so you've got your go to And we're dealing
with very very small amounts of time as well. We're
not dealing with a long drawn out fight or anything
like that, because the longer any kind of altercation goes on,
even if you're going first, the more problematic it's going
to become very very very quickly. So the job needs
to be done very very quickly. And so that's why
(25:34):
that there aren't lots of I think all of the
antique forms are catalogued in this way. They're preemptive techniques,
and they give it. They're showing you the different possibilities
in terms of where you are in relation to the
other person. But that's it. There's no if he throws
(25:56):
a punch or cuts with his sword or thrusts with
the bow, what to do if that happens, You're in
big trouble anyways, you know, yeah, which is which is indicated.
So in terms of any requirementsal demands for evidence, the
leap back in the weightiuh so weight t V, as
(26:18):
we've discussed in on previous podcast, one of the two
recorded identified styles of Naha karate in the w t
V sanching, which in my view, in all of our
view U is the original says the when the substance
hits the fans say to speak in the in the
(26:41):
sas there's a mechanism for that, which is the leap back,
raised left leg, you know, and one side above the
head and one side you know, hooks behind because you're
that operative is evading all of the potential nightmare cuts
that he's facing because the swordsman is loose with his
(27:03):
sword and free to cut. Yeah. So in terms of evidence,
I you know, and probably this is slightly premature in
terms of you know, this is something I was going
to say as a conclusion, you know now as appropriate.
The evidence is available for anyone who cares to look
(27:26):
at it on the film footage that we have released
and in the publications that we have made, namely the
new So we had the original version of the Great
kut Aati Myth, which was a hardback, and of course
(27:47):
hardbacks tend to be expensive. We now have a new
version in paperback which is inexpensive. So the evidence for
anyone who actually wants to pursue it is there. This
isn't a book promo. It's the evidence has been meticulously recorded.
It's also can be seen on the film footage that
(28:11):
have have but on on the website.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, and I'll put some links into into in the
in the description good.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Okay, do you have stuff to say? Oh well in
terms of that are not safe. I mean I understand
the weapons side to it because I've seen it and
used to do some of it. So I think it's
a great discovery. There's can't faulted.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
That's yeah, there's a good good discovery and good research.
No one else has done it, No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Hang well, I just need to check. You use the
word research. Are you qualified? But do you have do
you have any academic experience or just a little bit yes, yeah,
a fair bit. Actually I heard a rumor that you
(29:10):
had a master's degree. Yeah, yeah, I've got two of those.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Oh, just justin too, just you know a little bit
about research, Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, yes, I understand.
I understand exactly what you're talking about in order to
totally get it.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, do you get it?
Speaker 3 (29:34):
And you know the weapon stuff was cracking, fine, really
was good bit of research. Can't fold it.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
So yeah, And I think that that's that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
I think people need to get the book, read it,
digest it, understand, you know, if they're coming from and
I know we've covered this or not in our in
a previous podcast, we're not knocking what karate is now
(30:03):
for a lot of people. You know, sport karaate, it exists.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Combat karate, it exists. It is what it is.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Right now, we're talking about what the forms were for
the KTA historically because and not what and looking at
how they became became interpreted. We're looking at the logical, unbiased.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
View of what the cata were.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
And I think that's a lot of a lot of
sort of there's a lot of unlearning what's been learned
for many practitioners, you know, especially if they've come with
with a bias, especially if they've worked hard and got
to got to.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Quite a senior grades.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And again not knocking the grades, because that's a lot
of effort that has got into those those practitioners we've gone,
you know, got the black belts.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
And I mean there's another side to the findings as well,
isn't there? Because I rather, I really enjoyed what to
work even have put together with the three forms of
the meditation system of superb and then when when it
was unbeveled as being ah, it's weapons, that's kind of
that's kind.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Of a that that's yeah, that's a that's a that's
a story for another another podcast, So I think that's
gonna think so yeah, yeah, I mean we've spoken about
the numbers that we had at one point.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Uh, the numbers of practitioners that we had as a group,
a superb system.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I still think it is to this day. Yeah, the
promise of what it could be. Yes, yeah, it's very good.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Can't fault it much better than some of the stuff
I did when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Say that right, Well, I.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Think we'll leave it there and we'll come back with
another episode and another topic next week. Thank you for
joining us on this enlightening journey through the myths and
legends of karate. If you've enjoyed our podcast, don't forget
to subscribe and share it with fellow martial arts enthusiasts.
(32:24):
If you want to keep the Dojo lights on, consider
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contribution helps us bring you more episodes. Remember, your support
keeps the karate myth debunked and the podcast alive.
Welcome to Great Karati Myths Debunking the Legends, a podcast
that chopped through the forest of martial arts folklore to
reveal the.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
True essence of karate.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Join us your hosts Shineer, Nathan and Tom as we
take you on a journey through the dojo of Doubt,
where we question the tall tales and test the traditions
that have shaped karate as we know it, from the
mystical to the misunderstood. We break down the myths that
can build up the facts. But don't worry, the bunking
doesn't mean it's respecting the art. We'll be celebrating the
(00:35):
rich history of karate while setting the record straight. Whether
you're seasoned black belt, a novice starting your karate path,
or just a curious listener, prepare to have your preconceptions
shattered and your understanding of karate deepen. So tie up
your belts, oow in and let's get ready to rumble
with truth. Welcome back to Great Karati Myths Debunking the Legends.
(01:08):
We've been on a bit of a hiatus for a year,
so we're back. First episode back. So we've got Nathan,
keV and Tom and myself Shaneer and we've got some
exciting news. We've got the Great Karati Myth has been
republished in paperback. It's available on Amazon in all marketplaces.
(01:32):
It has a kindle so digital.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Former and paperback.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So we're going to take talk some talk about about
the subject.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Do you want to open? Well, I thought we talk
about something that came upon the Reddit feed that you
started seer, which was a comment I can't remember the
name of the person you mentioned, but they said, where's
the evidence? And so it might be a good place
to start, actually where the the book and the practice
(02:01):
actually meet and how important it is to really have
both and not just have the book or just the practice.
So yeah, I think that would be a good good bit.
Where's when's the evidence for it? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So the question question that was posed was the question
was about san Chun's historical role. So our focus on Sanchin, say,
so we said, you know, Sanjin catters were not mere exercises,
they were practical tools for weapons defense and peacekeeping. And
(02:37):
the questions was what's your perspective on Sanchin's historical role?
Common theme skepticism, you know, as we as we have
had in the past. The common question was well, where's
the evidence?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, well the could I cut in here for a second. Yeah, okay,
I don't know if it's true or not. But when
the apple fell from the tree and Elisade or Newton
maybe honest hell whoever it was the Newton? Yeah, oh yeah,
that's gravity. I think the issues that people have are
(03:15):
with the terminology, with the names, particularly with the terminology.
So you know, the apple fell down downwards. You know,
that's quite a good, you know, reason to hypothesize that
there's something called gravity that tends to make things fall down,
you know, and that's kind of where we're grounded. I
(03:38):
won't develop that any further and pass it back, thank you.
That following on from that, the kata, the catter Roller
primary sources of evidence. So if you know, people say
where's the evidence, it's in the kata. So really, to
get a good perspective on the research in the group
is to come and actually experience the kata, to come
(03:59):
and see what has been sort of unraveled really from
a lot of work, and that really enforces the secondary sources,
which is the history. And you know what we get
a lot in the karate world is people talking about
the kind of book history first, and they're making decisions
(04:21):
about the practice and what the category is and what
what it all should be from the book history. And
really I think that the approaches in our group is
that it's the other way around. It's the cata first
and then the history follows. What an excellent point. Yeah,
the catter Actually there's a great point on because the
(04:44):
category is actually the book, the book in physical movement
rather than in words and letters. It is actually the
catalog of evidence. Yeah. Yeah, the Santurn's a good one.
We've talked about that at quite a fair bit already,
but it's, you know, what's been The Sanchin predates karate.
(05:09):
It predates the kind of the life and shape it
took in Okinawa, and so the book history in terms
of Okinawan karate has no real contribution to really understanding
what Sanschin was for You have to really just go
to the kata. You can't start with the history there.
You can see what took place afterwards, after the functions
(05:32):
have been lost or not transmitted, you know, And that's
that's something we can go into as well, and the
different you know, usage and different applications that we've given
later on. But really our starting point is always with
the kata itself, and then once we've kind of found
(05:53):
a lead or a thread to pull on and got
and exploring the original functions, dipping dipping our toes into
the book history can sometimes be useful and helpful to
see where things have gone later on. But in terms
of the original function of catas are the primary source. Absolutely.
(06:14):
But one of the problems that we're dealing with and
in terms of the books and the so called history,
is we're suggesting something that seems to be quite well,
it's quite radical, and yeah, why would a bunch of
(06:35):
people from England, from the UK have But you know,
how can these people namely asked, claim to you know,
or make the claims that we do when when it
seemingly the rest of the world, particularly the japan and
can now and don't profess the same understanding? What is
(06:57):
it that? Why is it? Why should you know these
people in in England, in the UK you know, pipe
up and you know challenge the you know, the entire
quote received wisdom or Nathan tell us it was an
open question, but okay it was it wasn't a rhetorical question.
(07:20):
But there's too much attention paid to super to appearance,
to to whether you where you come from or whether
you you know, how can somebody that's not Chinese or
Japanese or or can now and understand that you know
the intricacies of this. But what we're dealing with here
(07:43):
is a language left to us in movement. It's not
a it's not a it's not a vocal, it's not
a dialectical thing. It's not about what language we speak
or what continent even we live on. It's it's not
that it's a tech pickle matter. And you can can
(08:04):
anyone determine given that the functions clearly were lost, and
that's that's a whole discussion itself. Can anyone look at
the mechanics of this, the engineering, And that's what we've done.
We've looked at the engineering at the construction, and that's
formed the basis for our understanding and just just does
(08:27):
this little a bit if you look at San Chin,
given the hyperbole that surrounds it, you know, the preparation
for unarmed combat, you know what a strange way to
you know, ask any good boxer or kickboxer or m
M a person you know, would they prepare for combat
(08:49):
with a with a you know, with this strange sort
of sequence of movements, you know, would would that be
a way to to prepare for yeah, all out and not?
You know, no holds barred conflicts. You know, that's a
rhetorical question. The answer is vatently no, it's not. Therefore,
(09:11):
you know, a starting point is to suggest that there
must be something else going on there. There's a system
in place within that CATA structure, and what we've said
more than hypothesized, we've demonstrated there's actually a weapons based form.
Much of the shaggering of people who don't care for that,
(09:33):
who who were raised on the same stuff. You know,
if I've been involved in this subject fifty years is
actually it's longer than fifty years my entire adult life.
I've devoted the most part of my adult life to
this very subject, and that in itself, I'm not claiming
deserves any merit. What I am saying here is sanchin
(09:57):
cutter as it presents well, it's observed to imagine or
to suggest that that is the primary preparation for a
no holds barred conflict to any form of unarmed self defense,
because it patently is not and that sort of and
(10:18):
you just highlighted the assumption that's sort of across the
board really that all of the antique forms of forms
from China are all for unarmed fighting. It's just an assumption,
you know, when the suggestions made that it could be
something else. How could it ever be anything else? There's
(10:39):
no way it's you know, how would you know? And
so on and so on. We don't start with the
assumption that it's for unarmed fighting. We don't start with
any assumption. Is taking the technical content of an antique
form and saying what could you do with it? What
could be done with it? And well, for all of them,
really a street fight or an unarmed you know, altercation
(11:05):
or anything like that, it doesn't. I can't think of
a single antique form that has anything that would be
that useful for a street fight or a no holds
barred right, So if it's if it's not that, then
what is it? And that's that's that's a good starting
place to look at these these form just putting aside
that assumption that it's unarmed and well, what could it be?
(11:28):
What do these shapes? What do these movements do? How?
What what are they efficient? For how why is this
a good way to use the body and what for.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
If my my own perspective of training in various answers
that people didn't actually ask those questions.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
They just didn't. They just they just they just bought
the line. You expect someone to know what they're talking about,
don't you, So if they say it's something, yeah, that
is that's genuinely that's my that's my experience. So yeah, yeah,
care for me.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
In your background has been in before four codo you
yours just been Lauga goju wing.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, yeah, we did the sansin. We did that.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
We did it good people belting, you know, slapping your
legs and slapping your stomach and all that stuff and
all the dynamic tension stuff. No, no, remember it will
I mean, what about what about the.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You know, the question where people say it makes less
sense as a weapon because there's many Chinese versions of
sanchin available to study and none of them are secretly weapons.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Catter. Yeah, but well, I mean it's an interesting question
because and it is something that's quite involved to answer
it because those sanchins came later and what you know,
was there a prototype one and it seems like it
(13:07):
seems like that they're there was one that was a
foundation thrill and it's found its way into waits you
with you. And why is it the prototype? Well, it's
it's technically every single movement has a very specific function
geared towards training the use of manipulation of a pair
(13:29):
of sye. There's no frills and there's no additional flourishes
or anything like that. Everything is quite is very very specific,
and it's complete in many respects. And so though there
is you know, development of of the of the function
(13:54):
as sanction, even in China, so you'll find that once
the functions are lost there, the forms carry darned and
were taken and spliced together with other kung fu styles
and martial arts styles and theatrical styles and all the
rest of it, and you get these lots and lots
of different, you know, types of kung fu. What do they?
(14:15):
You know? None of them seemed good answers for what
their forms are actually for or where they come from.
Nathan joined jumping on that. I do. Indeed, I think
we covered that that the these styles just seem to
have arisen as allegedly as unarmed self defense. I think
(14:41):
what needs to be made clear at the moment is
the disasters that happened in China during the Ming dynasty.
When the Ming dynasty fell sixteen forty four forty five,
they had every disaster you can imagine. Not only do
(15:02):
they have the most horrendous dynastic change through civil war,
but they also had plague and disease and politic famine
on a massive scale. And you know, we can look
at this and recognize this may well be the time
when much of the material and the thinking and the
(15:26):
understanding was lost. So you know, I don't know how
to put this, but the finer things in life go
down the tubes when when you know, when the substance
hits the fan. I'm a good example, and I'm I'm
both of my parents were saying. My mother was experienced
the Nazi German bombing and my father was on a
(15:53):
a mind sweeper in the last year of World War two.
So I'm very close to the experience of of World
War two, you know, thinking and and and you know,
my my you know, my mum came I can remember,
you know. So I'm just one generation down from people
who were bombed and rationed and who went to war
(16:15):
and and and that's completely different from the experience that
you know, my kids have now. They are so far
removed from that. We were even further removed from the
chaos and the disaster that happened at the fall of
the Ming dynasty when a lot of this material was
(16:39):
was lost. See the fact that you know it was
the san Chin was a weapon form that's got completely lost.
It got lost in not just the mists of time,
but the the the the travail and the difficulties that
(17:03):
all of the people who passed it on went through,
you know, in the seventeenth century. So what they did
manage to do, which bearing in mind that the traditional
Confucian Chinese society of the period was incredibly intensely conservative,
(17:23):
not in the way that we would understand or conservatism
has been expressed, for instance, in the UK, but in
the sense of the preservation of tradition and tradition many people,
traditions are preserved. Quite often many adherents to those traditions
(17:44):
don't actually know why they're following the rituals and behaviors
that they do, because those traditions can become and do
become obscure, but people will still follow them. This is
the case for the Kata, This is the case for
that aspect of Confucian Chinese culture. They preserved the forms.
(18:11):
They they preserved them through thick and thin, through revolution,
through disaster, through famine and disease, and there's still somebody
carried on and passed down the forms even though the
purposes were lost.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Can't agree with that, Yes, logical, Just follow what I've
been taught to do and carry on, don't question.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I think when you see as well, in the Ching
dynasty that followed Theming, I think you find that the
origins of lots of these so called Fujinese boxing styles
hung through styles like white Crane and Mantis and pac May,
and they seem to have got some shool in legends
(18:58):
attached to them. The probably a lot of it can
kind of parallels the the uprisings that we're taking place
to overthrow the Ching, and so that's where you probably
find the roots of all these different styles and why
there are so many different sand Chins, and they borrowed
from or existing material.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I think also one of the other's misunderstandings that that
that I see is being made is that the assumption
that Sanchin has all the techniques to counter the weapons.
It's not it's the it's the it's the basic training catter,
it's the basic drill to manipulate the site. It's not
(19:43):
the one that tells you what to do in when
countering another weapon or countering another a staff or a boat.
HM that comes after. That's in say San and Sansereio.
And I think that's what I've see is is questions
(20:04):
around well, you know, they can't see how you know
the kata that has a minor set of techniques and
basically one stance, How does it? How does it counter
the weapons?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
It doesn't really counter them, no, none of it. It's
not really react. They don't really. There are no scenarios
in any of the cata. There's no like if A
does this, then B responds like this, there's not that.
That doesn't exist because it's impossible to record anything like that,
because there's too many variables and too many possibilities. That
(20:38):
the kata are all proactive, which means you're going first,
and what you've got is a set of things that
you can do in terms of going first. And so
the idea of the size, very very simple, is to
trap and pin the limb with one and strike with
(20:58):
the other the intention of disarming. So you're not hitting
the head, you're not really, you're not hitting the spy
and it's all very much directed at the limbs. That so, yeah,
it's pin, trap and strike really and that's what underpins
all of it in terms of the three forms preserved
in the way. But there's no scenarios, there's no there's
(21:22):
there's there's no choreography because you can't call it. You
can't do that hum and the sanchine is the basic
training of how to manipulate the side.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, and that and that's it, isn't it it's it's
I think, I think for for generations we've been it's
it's been stuck in this self defense.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
It's the defense. Yeah, and it's not, it's it's the mistake.
The big mistake is that it's it's been it's been
presented as something that's unarmed, and it's it's not. And
so in terms of providing evidence, I've got to say
(22:05):
something here. The best expedition of sanser you of how
that should be used with a pair of s eye
I've ever seen, was demonstrated to me by Tom I
didn't really. I worked on the San Chin and the
Ceysan and and I turned over my findings to the
group and and Tom pursued them assiduously, and he came
(22:33):
We went to to try to train h next village
from where I live when Tom came to visit and
he showed it to me. And I've never seen anything
that good in terms of what the san you does. No,
(22:54):
I you know, I I would. I don't gamble, but
if I did, I would bet everything I had on
what he demonstrated is is correct. And although this might
not be completely to Tom's liking, a good example though,
of his trap and pit and the purpose of the
(23:14):
site can be seen. And in a demonstration that goes
back nineteen years, we've been at the some time as
a group and as friends at that senny in the UK,
which was a UK celebration of British sports, and I
(23:39):
think we were at the National Exhibition Center in if
I'm not mistaken, and Tom and his colleague Matt demonstrated
the sigh against the Bocan and I've still yet to
see anything that good. This isn't a praised Tom session.
It's just the fact that, yeah, that shows you know,
(24:02):
and I'm sure that Tom would elaborate on that and
breathe upon that and have other ways of showing that. Fine,
but still today that is the best demonstration of what
the sign was designed to do. That's actually in my
view on camera. Just to add something quickly to that
(24:26):
that the demonstration it looks like, although I've just said
the techniques are not reactive, we put that choreography together
to present the techniques, so it looks like we're doing
reactive things. But it's just a way of demonstrating the techniques.
But you can't really do any choreography with it. You
would just have to do it and it would be
(24:47):
a bit it would be a bit messy, and it
would be a bit ugly, and you might, you know,
muck it up and get it wrong. But the techniques
kind of you're kind of given a map of the
territory where you if you're on the corner or to
the side of a person, you know what to do
because you're so familiar with with the thought, with the practice,
(25:12):
and so you've got your go to And we're dealing
with very very small amounts of time as well. We're
not dealing with a long drawn out fight or anything
like that, because the longer any kind of altercation goes on,
even if you're going first, the more problematic it's going
to become very very very quickly. So the job needs
to be done very very quickly. And so that's why
(25:34):
that there aren't lots of I think all of the
antique forms are catalogued in this way. They're preemptive techniques,
and they give it. They're showing you the different possibilities
in terms of where you are in relation to the
other person. But that's it. There's no if he throws
(25:56):
a punch or cuts with his sword or thrusts with
the bow, what to do if that happens, You're in
big trouble anyways, you know, yeah, which is which is indicated.
So in terms of any requirementsal demands for evidence, the
leap back in the weightiuh so weight t V, as
(26:18):
we've discussed in on previous podcast, one of the two
recorded identified styles of Naha karate in the w t
V sanching, which in my view, in all of our
view U is the original says the when the substance
hits the fans say to speak in the in the
(26:41):
sas there's a mechanism for that, which is the leap back,
raised left leg, you know, and one side above the
head and one side you know, hooks behind because you're
that operative is evading all of the potential nightmare cuts
that he's facing because the swordsman is loose with his
(27:03):
sword and free to cut. Yeah. So in terms of evidence,
I you know, and probably this is slightly premature in
terms of you know, this is something I was going
to say as a conclusion, you know now as appropriate.
The evidence is available for anyone who cares to look
(27:26):
at it on the film footage that we have released
and in the publications that we have made, namely the
new So we had the original version of the Great
kut Aati Myth, which was a hardback, and of course
(27:47):
hardbacks tend to be expensive. We now have a new
version in paperback which is inexpensive. So the evidence for
anyone who actually wants to pursue it is there. This
isn't a book promo. It's the evidence has been meticulously recorded.
It's also can be seen on the film footage that
(28:11):
have have but on on the website.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, and I'll put some links into into in the
in the description good.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Okay, do you have stuff to say? Oh well in
terms of that are not safe. I mean I understand
the weapons side to it because I've seen it and
used to do some of it. So I think it's
a great discovery. There's can't faulted.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
That's yeah, there's a good good discovery and good research.
No one else has done it, No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Hang well, I just need to check. You use the
word research. Are you qualified? But do you have do
you have any academic experience or just a little bit yes, yeah,
a fair bit. Actually I heard a rumor that you
(29:10):
had a master's degree. Yeah, yeah, I've got two of those.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Oh, just justin too, just you know a little bit
about research, Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, yes, I understand.
I understand exactly what you're talking about in order to
totally get it.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, do you get it?
Speaker 3 (29:34):
And you know the weapon stuff was cracking, fine, really
was good bit of research. Can't fold it.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
So yeah, And I think that that's that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
I think people need to get the book, read it,
digest it, understand, you know, if they're coming from and
I know we've covered this or not in our in
a previous podcast, we're not knocking what karate is now
(30:03):
for a lot of people. You know, sport karaate, it exists.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Combat karate, it exists. It is what it is.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Right now, we're talking about what the forms were for
the KTA historically because and not what and looking at
how they became became interpreted. We're looking at the logical, unbiased.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
View of what the cata were.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
And I think that's a lot of a lot of
sort of there's a lot of unlearning what's been learned
for many practitioners, you know, especially if they've come with
with a bias, especially if they've worked hard and got
to got to.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Quite a senior grades.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And again not knocking the grades, because that's a lot
of effort that has got into those those practitioners we've gone,
you know, got the black belts.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
And I mean there's another side to the findings as well,
isn't there? Because I rather, I really enjoyed what to
work even have put together with the three forms of
the meditation system of superb and then when when it
was unbeveled as being ah, it's weapons, that's kind of
that's kind.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Of a that that's yeah, that's a that's a that's
a story for another another podcast, So I think that's
gonna think so yeah, yeah, I mean we've spoken about
the numbers that we had at one point.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Uh, the numbers of practitioners that we had as a group,
a superb system.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I still think it is to this day. Yeah, the
promise of what it could be. Yes, yeah, it's very good.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Can't fault it much better than some of the stuff
I did when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Say that right, Well, I.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Think we'll leave it there and we'll come back with
another episode and another topic next week. Thank you for
joining us on this enlightening journey through the myths and
legends of karate. If you've enjoyed our podcast, don't forget
to subscribe and share it with fellow martial arts enthusiasts.
(32:24):
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