July 8, 2025 • 63 mins
In this insightful episode of "Great Karate Myths: Debunking Legends," the team are joined by experienced martial arts instructor Matt Turner to challenge the common misconception that kata are perfect and provide all the answers for self-defense. They delve into the limitations of kata, arguing that they serve as fundamental "maps of the territory" and a "set of martial skills" , rather than prescriptive, scenario-based choreography.The discussion highlights how an overabundance of techniques can hinder spontaneity and improvisation in real-world altercations. Matt emphasizes that kata were not created to cover every eventuality and often originated with weapon use or defense in mind, fundamentally different from unarmed urban self-defense scenarios. The episode also touches on how the proliferation of kata and "creative interpretations" of their applications can be seen as a "currency" to attract students and generate revenue, rather than focusing on true effectiveness.Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of the historical context of kata, the importance of pragmatic application, and why continuous improvisation is paramount over rote memorization. As Matt Turner states, "Their fundamental methods, their maps of the territory. And you can explore and improvise in any, you know, within those sets of skills." Key takeaways include:
Tune in to challenge your assumptions about kata and deepen your understanding of effective martial arts training.
- Kata are "maps of the territory" and fundamental skill sets, not scenario-based choreography or a "backup plan" for every self-defense situation.
- Too much prescriptive information or too many techniques can hinder spontaneity and the ability to improvise in an altercation.
- Many antique kata were designed with weapon use or defense in mind, and their application without this context often requires abandoning the original form.
- The proliferation and "creative interpretation" of kata have become a "currency" in modern martial arts, often detracting from the original purpose and effectiveness.
- Martial skills, especially those historically used by professionals like militia or palace guards, are not about perfect outcomes but about effective application by highly trained individuals.
Tune in to challenge your assumptions about kata and deepen your understanding of effective martial arts training.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to another illuminating episode of Great Karate Myths,
Debunking the legends. Today we're excited to welcome
Matt Turda, A seasoned martial arts instructor and long time
member of the Koduru Group. In today's discussion, we tackle
A fundamental concept that's often misunderstood our kata.
Truly perfect. We'll explore the inherent
(00:26):
limitations of kata, why a focuson spontaneous improvisation is
more crucial than prescribed scenarios, and how the
historical and cultural origins of these forms will reveal their
true purpose, which often involves weapon deployment, not
just unarmed combat. If you ever wondered about the
practical application and true depth of ficata, stick around.
(00:53):
Let's start with MAP. Greetings, Map.
Greetings. Yeah, thank you very much.
Well, I guess in our, in our brief discussion, we, we sort of
discerned that I've been part ofthe Kodo group for, well, at
least over 20 years. My, my background in, in martial
arts is, is varied. I started at the age of seven
(01:15):
with wadaroo, which is common theme, I think when I was 7.
So yeah, I've, I've done other things along the way,
particularly classical Japanese weapons arts as well, some
Aikido and and other bits and pieces, some Kung Fu.
So yeah, long time investment and a long time member of the
(01:38):
Kodo Group, which has been a staple for probably 1/4 of a
century or so. Excellent.
Thanks, Matt. OK, let's get into our
discussion today. Tom do.
You want to open. Yeah, cat or not Perfect.
As we're not perfect, yeah, yeah, it's the couple of things
(02:01):
really. It's about limitations of kata
and how much content is useful. So I was having a conversation
with someone yesterday and they asked me if I thought that
Sanchin, for example, was the basic method and say san and San
(02:28):
say to you were a backup plan ora Plan B if the sanction goes
wrong. And I, I sort of said in
response, no. And because I don't think
there's anything prescribed in the cattle, I don't think that
there are Benarios or if something goes wrong you do this
(02:48):
or anything like that. And I think that the cattle have
a limited amount of con content.And the idea is, is that you
don't have too much so that you can still be spontaneous with
it. So you have a map of the
territory, you have you, you have your fundamental system,
(03:10):
the martial, the set of martial skills.
And you're, the idea is that youwouldn't be able to improvise
with that as you engage or, or whatever.
It's not scenario based choreography and having a full
back plan or anything like that.And I think it it, as I was
chatting with the friend, we, wetalked about how much, how much
(03:34):
would be useful. So if you take some, we've
talked about Kusanku a lot. So I'll just use that as an
example, which is disarming a bow.
How much information is going tobe useful to you and how much is
going to keep you within that threshold of being able to
improvise and be spontaneous andnot start to create an
(03:55):
artificial process whereby you kind of get stuck in overload
with having too many techniques or too many idea conflicting
ideas or something like that. And, and I don't think that kata
should have all the answers either.
So the idea kata are not perfectis that it's not, it's not the
(04:15):
answer to every single question or possibility or problem that
someone's going to encounter. That's what improvisation would
argue. That's, you know, being
spontaneous and improvising as problems arise is, is the order
of the day, I think in, in termsof these martial skills and
martial systems. And and I don't think we should
(04:35):
expect Qatar to have the answer to every problem or everything
like that. They're fundamental methods.
They're maps of the territory. And you can explore and
improvise in any, you know, within those sets of skills.
So yeah. Nathan, do you want to jump in
(04:56):
your thoughts? Yeah, I'm happy to jump in.
Yeah, this is a rhetorical question, but is it or is it not
the case? Well, let's there are myriad
cata, many, many cata. I can go through the styles, but
(05:18):
we've done that in previous podcasts.
So we could say there are sort of in modern karate, there are
50 cata plus 50 cata and growing, not including homemade
Isles that create cata. Is it or is it not the case that
and and would I be wrong suggestwould I be wrong here that
(05:40):
catcher grow in number as peoplerecord all of the different
possibilities it it it could occur in self defence?
Is that is that correct thinking?
It's making things too prescriptive.
If you've got too much. Is that point again about being
too prescriptive of things and, and trying to control something
(06:04):
that really is almost impossibleto control, which is how an
altercation is going to unfold or unravel or thinking that you
could have a backup plan. It suggests that you could in
some way predict what's what's going to happen.
And I think that there are, there are sets of ideas about
how if you do things in a particular way, you could
(06:26):
predict what happens next. And I don't think that's the
case, especially when it comes to violence and fighting.
And so when things become too prescriptive, you or you have
too much information, too many techniques, you start to it, it
takes away that ability to improvise.
It takes that ability to respondas things arise in in the in the
(06:48):
melee or, or what you know, whatever.
And and we've we've much of thisbefore, but it's, it's it's
yeah, interesting. You need to know and you're and
you're quite right, you but you can imagine a Westerner sitting
down to think how did they, how do these cattle occur?
(07:11):
How do they make them? How do they design them?
Look at the linear thinking processes that are used that are
not decrying left brain linear thinking that might look at this
the problem of creating cattle. Well, OK, we're going to look
at, for instance, things that people do regularly.
(07:34):
There's, there's 11 teacher and author who lists these as
habitual acts of violence and his, his his thesis describes
cattle responses to habitual acts of violence.
We do regularly literally and and his idea is that that is the
(08:00):
the cornerstone of the key for how Qatar were originally
created and how they should be viewed.
And I know this particular author and senior martial
artist. We've had our discussions, but
sufficiently so I, I don't completely agree with that on
the grounds that how do you set the how can you be sure that
(08:24):
your habitual acts of violence of ubiquitous universal across
cultures across the board? And clearly they're not.
So we've said before that that we do have to look at culture
and context and history. And so the island of Okinawa,
(08:45):
for example, would would be a completely environment and and
culture from that of, of, of a city in in England, London or
Liverpool or Manchester or Coventry or Birmingham.
And the idea that we can tailor these particularly antique
(09:08):
Qatar, tailor these, these in some cases quite ancient Qatar
that possibly possibly stemmed from Ming dynasty China.
Or give that a date at the end of that was 154445.
But suddenly the patterns that were passed on from that time
period should an altercation in a nightclub or, you know, at the
(09:30):
entrance to a nightclub or a pubor, you know, in in 2025, that's
quite a big ask. And the the point is, if you
look at the left brain way of approaching this and how the
rest of them might think, you know, how would we go about
this? Well, we've got to look out for
a right punch. So I'll, I know I'll do, I'll
(09:51):
do, I'll do locks and counters on both sides.
And that seems to be what the cattle are indicating that we,
we should be able to perform allthese defences and counters on
both sides. So that's how that cattle is
struck. Somebody hits you with the
right, you razor block and then you counter with the right, and
(10:14):
then you repeat on the other side and, and and so on and,
and, and then the person closes the reins down.
And so you use an elbow of a close range and so on.
And that's a completely mistakenidea as to how the the cattle
unfolded. And as we've, we said, you know,
repeatedly throughout our podcast to a start, a lot of the
(10:35):
cattle that we're examining deploy weapons if they're not
deploying weapons. So I mean not forever stuck to
Antuna Celi San and San Celiu, but but if they're not deploying
weapons as Thomas capably illustrated, we'll be
illustrating on on on film. I'm told rule rule all that they
(10:56):
are counter to weapons. Disarming someone from a bow or
retaining the grip of your own bow, whopping and cleaning with
side pre empting in civil arrestsituations.
These are not static scenario block and and counter they they
can't be further from that. So I think effectively the the
(11:20):
idea that that of that they needto be perfect as we discussed in
previous class is a nonsense. You can't make something to
cover. Every eventuality will be like
sitting down and deciding in themorning before you walked out
the door in some sort of paranoid fashion.
(11:43):
You know what? I'm going to sit down and think
of everything that could go wrong today.
And then I'm going to write downwhat could go wrong and what I
could do to to defend against itor or solve that, whatever.
So I'm going to, I'm not going to walk out the door because
something might happen. I'm going to be prepared.
I'm going to consider every threat or danger that could and
(12:05):
I'm going to write it down and I'm going to write down that
that's not the way that Nakata were, were, were created at all.
That's not the mindset that thatthat created them.
And, and it's it's timely now torepeat that in order to for
those structures to exist, generally speaking, and quite
frequently, we we have to step away from the idea that these
(12:27):
are patterns to go against unarmed, spontaneous, you know,
attacks in in a self defence, particularly in an urban self
defence situation, because they're not the way that
tribulates not only the EMBO, the floor plan, the direction of
movement, but also the hand positions, the the arm
(12:51):
positions, right. Actually centred around either
the use of or going against a weapon, which limits the range
of movement into patterns that can be somewhat predicted dead
and turned into a forepot. And and that's completely
different from trying to come upwith a a perfect self defence
(13:14):
for anything that might happen to me to 1 should 1 be randomly
attacked. Yeah, you know, I.
Think it's, I think it's very noticeable actually that when
the the weapons or use of weapons is taken out as a
context and people try to apply these antique forms in a
(13:38):
fisticuffs sort of fashion, theyby and large they have to
abandon the actual form and the way that it the movements.
I saw a video just just the other day of somebody trying to
apply the first few techniques of Nehansi Shodan.
(13:59):
And I mean his application of itbore absolutely no resemblance
to the actual no hands you form.So that really does speak to the
idea that if, if you take it outof its proper context and its
proper use, you've got to get creative with even the actual
structure of the form, which is obviously, well, why bother with
(14:25):
the form then? Why bother practising it
correctly? A cynical view here is is is
Qatar a currency? It's almost almost the creative
interpretation and the the application is currency.
(14:47):
But if you if you if you keep making up applications, you know
which anyone can do, you can keep those seminars busy for
years. Can't.
Ah, well, you know, it's. It's not just the seminars, it's
views now clicks and views and. Yeah, yeah.
But you know, it's, it brings you to question really, how long
(15:09):
should a professional using these arts.
So somebody that was trained in the civil arrest skills or any
of the different systems that we've talked about, how long
would their professional training be and what would the
maintenance be? You know, it's not going to be
20 or 30 years. And it's a kind of martial arts
(15:29):
myth, isn't it's a karate myth. You've got to apprentice
yourself to someone for 40 yearsand it's all a load of rubbish,
you know, because it's easy to say that if you said, well
there's always more to learn andyou could keep it going forever
because you could keep making itup, couldn't it?
It just goes on ad nauseam really.
(15:50):
And actually these cutter, you know, had to function and once
you've learnt it, you've learnt it.
There's no like, well, is there anything else?
No, well, no, this is it. You've read the manual, you've
you've trained it, you've used it.
How many more times do you want to keep going?
I know you know there there's ways of improving.
And I think the ways of improving come from the feedback
(16:12):
from real experience or experience with resisting
training partners, which is how someone might develop their
personal practise, but the collecting of more and more and
more. Yeah, I think you're exactly
right, Shania. I think it's a, it is a form of
currency, isn't it? Well.
I'd like to have a go at qualifying that if I may.
(16:34):
You used the the perfect term pretty much in here in saying
that Qatar are currency, they became currency.
So if we look at the creation ofBooty Rue Karate, which is very
much the the brainchild and the creation of, of Miyagi chosen
(16:58):
Sensei as as late as to as late as 19110 because Maggie, I'll
shortly just Maggie Cenci. Maggie Cenci was a conscript in
the he found himself a conscriptin the Japanese army, much to
(17:19):
his chagrin. And I'm not sure he was mad
about that, but he wrote to various people while he he was
on service and one of them he wrote to Kyodo Jihatsu, his
senior under Higashianna 18 yearold and lamenting the fact that
Kyodo Jihatsu had begun to learnthe the San Selyu allegedly and
(17:44):
Nagi Nagi was a bit misk and andand and was a written record.
He had up to that point only learned Tukata, Sanchin and
Sasan. So back at the ranch, his senior
was busy being taught the third cater and cater will are a
(18:06):
premium then. And it's quite interesting to
know that the parallel system, which personally, I it's my
belief that I think we share thebelief as a group that the, that
the, that the cat are actually originated from a common source
in frugal. But it doesn't Notwithstanding
that Maggie, Maggie Senzio only knew 2 Catablade 1910, bearing
(18:29):
in mind that it was in 1917 thathe created the 10 show catter.
And if you look at the Kyodo du Hatsu, he actually only learned
3 catter from Higashi on is sensing 3 Qatar Sanchin Seisan
(18:53):
Sanceriu. Now it's quite interesting that
meanwhile back at the rage. So let's go on sort of let's
let's look at what Finucosi sentto he was learning for 10 years.
Oh yes, Nahanchin 1, Nahanchin 2and Nahanchin 3 by his own
(19:14):
maturity recorded himself. He spent 10 years on the
Nyhanjian series, 10 years. But it seems to me that in order
to make karate more quote progressive and and more to
attract more students. I think Qatar and back to
Shania's term were a currency currency.
(19:37):
And and it's in fact in the withrespect to the style of Gojiru,
they were not the set 12 that are creating this style as far
as I'm aware. And and and virtually until
right at the end of Magi Sensi'sdeath, until the end of his life
or in fact, after his death, when his senior students who'd
(20:00):
only been taught 3 cattle apiece, he electivised these
cattle, put them together and created a major system out of
some twelve 12th cattle. So it it early practitioners did
not know. 12 Qatar plus 12 in Guru, 15 in Wadaroo, 27 and
(20:24):
growing in Shukan or or or or Sturu.
Sturu collects everyone's katar and has no disrespect to Sturu.
You know they're hedging their bets.
They do all of the Goju katar and all of the Shurin Ru katar
and they do some 50 plus katar plus some very obscure Chinese
katar that they seem to have added in the last 30 or 40
(20:48):
years. My point is that they did in
fact these Qatar did in fact become currency.
Well chosen word. But they that that that is a a a
smoke. It's a false trail because it's
assumed that these Qatar are allindependent stand alone Qatar.
(21:11):
And in some respects they can be.
And so in the case of Tom's understanding of Kushanku, which
I embrace, it's a particular function to do with a staff.
But then, correct me if I'm wrong anybody, but so is
possibly the pasai or the chinto.
(21:32):
I've got to get these the right way.
Round one's tomfurt and one is retaining your bow.
So forgive my failing memory, but the the actual styles, the
sequences Sanchez and Sanceriu, the Nyhanchen series, generally
they're not really a collection of cat.
(21:53):
The Nyhanchen series is 1 catterbroken into three parts.
And I think that the the the Waititi, the Sanchez and
Sanceriu is similarly 1 catter broken into 3 modular parts for
teaching. And I'd extend them that to the
ringtone. Not my original idea.
It was Yip Man's own son Yip Sonthat told me private
(22:15):
conversation in my own home thathe suspected that the ringtone
form ZE Feral may well have beenone form one complete form
originally. I completely agree with that.
And I think same is true for Sanchin, Sezan and Sanselyu.
The same for the the Mohanshin series and similarly the
(22:40):
Kusanku, Chinto and Pasai also will will be will be related for
similar reasons, although those 3 should not be lunged together
I. Was just thinking it reminds me
of of. It's a bit like mysticism, isn't
it? Keep everybody in.
Full and in war. And mystified of the the Master
(23:01):
who knows everything. And actually he doesn't.
He doesn't know everything. It's quite funny, actually.
But you're right. I think it's right.
Currency. It's a currency.
Yeah, I agree. Just going jumping back quickly
to cat and not being perfect. And I think it's worth
mentioning that there's this assumption which I've
(23:24):
encountered across the board that that the the information in
a CAT was any good in the 1st place.
So just because we know what thefunctions are or or we've reset
or we've, you know, ongoing workrather doesn't mean that they're
any good in the 1st place. So you can have a kata like Goju
Shiho, which is Tomfa or Weiji Sanchin and say San that a sigh.
(23:49):
But that doesn't necessarily just because they are, that
doesn't mean that they are particularly good methods in the
1st place. That's something else.
That's something else to be explored and to looked at,
whether it's where the Kusanku is a good method of disarming
the bow. Is it an is it one that could be
affected? Or is it just been made-up with
someone that sort of fancied having a go at that in the
(24:11):
first, You know, and there's plenty of that in the world.
There's plenty of cattle that have been made-up.
Even people from our own group have made-up their own forms.
Just because the cattle exist doesn't mean that they're high
quality in the 1st place. And so that there's that, that
element of cattle not being perfect and we shouldn't assume
(24:32):
that it's all superb, high quality, top notch stuff.
It could be an absolute pile of horseshit.
And so we need to kind of consider what how pragmatic
these skills are when we're researching them and looking at
them. Could, could I just terrify a
(24:52):
point, Tom? Nobody that's active in our
group creates cat because that'sa no no for us.
I think you'll refer. Makes you shut the past.
In the past. Sorry, yeah.
You claimed with us that the particular individual and
decided that he knew better and he could he could create create
(25:13):
cater. So he created an entire star,
named it and created his own cater.
That's not something that that that that ever happens within
our group. We mean not one of us creates a
I've always bulked it that all of us have of of warden yukata
And there's there's enough to toto search through and and tidy
(25:36):
up and understand, you know, as it is without without making
confusion, you know, making moreparticularly wrong things as
this individual. In my view.
Did just thinking about. The code of Rukata really and
(25:57):
just strikes me that what we have is a framework of if you
like. I don't like the word techniques
but technique. I use the word techniques but
they are actually applied in thepushing hands and you can apply
them as they are in the Carter. Which is quite.
(26:17):
A lot different to, well, most other practises I would say.
I can't think of any any other group actually that does that.
No. And I think we're quite clear.
We are quite clear on saying that they are creative
interpretations as far as Sanjinand Rukushu go.
(26:40):
Rukushu, yeah. But they're creative
interpretations of a creative interpretation.
Yeah, but they actually do do. You can actually apply them in
the pushing hands as they are inthe Carter.
Yeah, which is, is completely different.
It's completely different to what you'd count when you were
house. So yeah, forward to seeing our
(27:02):
phrases there. Yeah.
Yeah, I, I think very rarely that you get anyone saying yes,
I've just made this up. No.
No, no. I think that's an important
point though, because just something that came up in my
conversation yesterday with, with Nicola, our friend in
(27:23):
Denmark, was that the, you have,you have all these applications
being made-up. All this creative interpretation
of the antique cat are taking place.
But what's generally omitted as they publish their information
or discuss it is that they made it up.
(27:47):
And, and I, and that, you know, I, I said to yesterday that if
you make a statement about an antecata or you suggest a
movement could be this. You're making a statement about
the function, you're making a statement about the context and
you're to making a statement about what the intended function
(28:09):
of it was for. And so that's, you know, and if
you've made that up, I think it's important to, to, to, to
state that I don't think there'sanything wrong with the creative
interpretation. I think it's, it's got its place
and it's got its use. But in terms of the antique
forms, I think all roads eventually lead to the original.
(28:32):
What, what were these forms originally for?
And being, you know, being honest about, well, I'm just
making up some applications because I quite fancy it to be
self defence. That's what I want it to be for
and, and and so on and so on. But yeah, that that point is
(28:52):
like you essentially when you got the kind of the bunkai
specialists, if you like, they never say, well, these are the
ones I've made it up this season.
Stay tuned for season 27 next year where I get well, I'm back
on the term and I'll circuit with.
(29:12):
And we're back and we're back onthe currency again.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I can remember my Lao Gardez
and when I was about 14, oh, God, some of those forms they
did was dislike. What the heck are they?
What? They're really elaborate.
(29:33):
Interesting. I never, ever, ever saw any, any
of the material used in sparringor anything like that.
It's just total crap. Yeah, it's just nonsense.
If I can shift sideways for a second because I was considering
yesterday, I was considering a very popular YouTube who had a
(30:00):
thumbnail sort of claiming that the kata, the karate kata Sesan
is the oldest kata question mark.
I'd like to address the questionmark unless anyone else.
Yeah. First of all, what do we mean by
(30:24):
say Shannon when Mario Higuon sensei and he is a very well and
I'm not talking about how much he is the really world renowned
go to instruction. You know, really did Howard
gradually collateral Ford his contribution to the BBC English,
(30:47):
BBC Way of the Warrior series inwhich he he featured well, had
an episode. He went to China to try to find
the roots of Gojivgu Karate. He couldn't find the roots.
He could find many forms with the same names as the forms that
(31:09):
he had in Gojiru, the ones that he had learned.
So he could find the names, but he could not find the same
Qatar. Sure, everybody had a Sanchim.
And then guess what? So many of the systems had a
Seisan and a San Seru. Interestingly, he could not find
the Sepi, the Korunfa. He could not find basically the
(31:32):
like the the Gojiri Qatar in as you anywhere in China, anywhere
he was living. I don't mean to imply that
they're not there just because he couldn't find them, but I get
the impression he was quite thorough.
And the the reality is that there are those those the names
(31:56):
of those Catholics have many different forms type quite
difficult to compare the frugal season with the Roji Sasan and
compare that with the Sodukan Hungeksi or or or or the OR the
(32:20):
word say sham. So they, the pronunciations are
whether it's Sasan in whether itwas Sasan in or hungeksi.
They're very nuanced. They've changed that.
They have. We altered to fit the format of
(32:43):
the style in which they're beingreflected.
Then if you try and compare thatwith various Chinese films, you
get a problem. We all like our group that's
collectively yours. The opinion That and the weighty
theme is incredibly accurate andWeighty Sanchez is the gold
(33:08):
standard that is absolutely the gold standard.
Tom and I have had and all of usamongst ourselves a number of
conversations about this and which I asked Tom whether he
several accordions and we've hadprotective discussions about
this whether he that the the month this that that my my dear
(33:34):
friend Simon Leahy was good enough to don't even he got
there in slow turn in China. I got early exposure to it and
our group got very early exposure to the Happo and the
the Bavulian and the the writer Pam McCarthy demux.
But they did this Indian he was in England and we spent some
(33:57):
time together. It's very interesting to see,
you know, in an early stage those those those forms, but
someone like after a considerable amount of study and
practise and conversation. But I asked from quite bluntly,
do you think that the way she is?
(34:18):
Yeah, more more accurate is likethe word pure, but I use it more
pure. And Tom, I think response was
pretty much yes, undoubtedly I think.
We've got as far as to say. Our joint view is that the Reiki
say Sam bringing out on a limb here, but likely pre lates like
(34:41):
a lot of the other versions, because it also it shows that
connection a very clear connection to to the Reichi
Sanchin like that could be argued in the in the case of
digress for a second here and say that thanks to the karate
appear very late and have no parallels in China none
(35:03):
whatsoever. Like this.
Weirdly, children senses like Qatar do not occur in the Tom
Roux to torn Roux the creation of like what did you Hatson, the
most senior student on must havetaken Laggy's Higashi on the
Penrose. In other words, the style
(35:24):
created by senior Tom Roux only taught Sanchin Sesan Sancerian.
Later he did keep the 4th Qatar.It's it just takes me now.
But effectively there were none of the Qatar that you find that
are found in Gojulu in in Thornblu.
(35:48):
Those Qatar don't exist. In fact they only exist in
Gojulu. Crazy though their name sets do
exist in China and can be found in Siamese forms, but most of
those forms hardly resemble well, they resemble them at all
(36:08):
except they have a beginning andmiddling in it resemble them.
It is our our collective opinion.
That's the seisan Qatar is not astand alone Qatar.
It's not You can't just take it out.
(36:28):
And it's interesting that the Nahar Qatar that would be the
goes and the weights you do and all the the derivatives do not
have stand alone. Whereas the Kushanku, it seems
to me and Tom's the best one to to elaborate on this, But the
Kushanku, the Chinto, the Pasai Canbury standalone, we have the
(36:56):
specific department, unlike unlike the rated series or or or
the ringtone. The ringtone, for instance, have
a common theme right the way through.
There is no common theme. It's and mile hand gene and
that's quite important. So my point was they cannot go a
(37:17):
stand alone say sham katta coming from the the Nahad and by
the time it finds its way in recent Shattergun, which is all
the is a broad based amalgam of Qatar in which the functions
that will be disciplined will not be none.
(37:41):
And and that's no disrespect to set the time.
I've already expressed my admiration for the quality of
their karate according to their own deal of what karate is.
I, I, you know, no disrespect tothem, but they do not they,
they, they have a highly eclectic of Qatar in Wicksville,
(38:05):
where Asian has become unguettry.
And there this is not a clear transmit.
And I repeat, sorry, I, I repeatthat the, the, the Sasian is not
a standalone factor. It's part of a trilogy.
(38:25):
It means Sanchin before it and probably sunset.
Are you afterwards? OK.
Matt, any thoughts? Well, I I just had to a small
devil's advocate question actually.
So if if you know, returning to the theme of the cat are not
(38:45):
being perfect. Sanchin of the of the week Julio
series is foundational. It's it's the gold standard.
I can, I can well anticipate thequestion coming.
Well, why? Why the other two?
If, if the sanction is the gold standard for manipulating the
PSI and the basic technique withthe PSI, why are the the two
(39:10):
sequential forms, the the Seisanand the Sun Sailu?
Why? Why are they necessary and why
do they seem, you know, more more elaborate?
Well, I think. The San, I think to answer that,
the San Chin is how to read a map and the Sasan and Sanseri
who are your maps and, and so and, and that and that's it.
(39:36):
And, and as I've sort of said atthe beginning, you don't want
too much more than that. There's more than enough in the
Sasan and Sanseri to give you aneffective system of site usage
and not diminish the ability to improvise and be spontaneous.
(39:58):
And and also is that question ofis it a good method of using the
site? Is it an effective method?
Because that's not also an assumption that we wouldn't
make. And so there's that exploring.
Can we be effective with it? You know, would it be, is it, is
it the best method, method ever of using the site?
Who knows? But it's a method, and it's
(40:22):
certainly. Almost undoubtedly not perfect.
There's a double negative there,sorry.
Build it, put another layer of analogy on top of yours and what
what came to my mind was venting.
I like the basic rules of a language, so this English is my
(40:45):
only language. We've all struggled with French
who have moved green and we've hit engaging that could go other
places. But the point is, the analogy I
want to make is sanction is likealphabet and creation of an
alpha, but built into that alphabet are the punctuation
(41:07):
marks that would be used in the construction of formalities,
photographs. So sanction would lay that down.
In my analogy, they would lay that down and then they sound
would be short story writing or essay writing.
It would be an example of how you would like an essay.
(41:35):
And so they're they're commentaries.
It is an ancestry or commentaries development of the
theme of of alphabet, spelling, grammar and punctuation.
Sorry, I haven't done the best with this analogy.
I think that Cezanne is is grammar and that's better.
(41:59):
And then San Seville would couldbe seen as an essay.
So they're just developments. But if you can't don't have
letters, you know you can't. How can you write anything?
So first you have the the building block and that's what
Santian is and the other two cutter are are are developments
(42:23):
of that theme that will show thepractitioner on how to write.
But that's not if you think about it, every book in the
English language is made-up of 26 letters.
Well, you know, that's quite incredible.
Millions and millions of words. I don't know how many books
there are in the world. Nobody does one all made from
(42:43):
letters. That's quite incredible.
So we could see that Santin as an as the alphabet.
We need to see the the the following cat or the following
two cat as to as how to express that developments of the theme
heading towards literature. What that's on this perfectly
right. It needs the rest of the ones
(43:04):
done in the mix spontaneously inapp to you know, in application.
In other words, right, you go toschool, you learn the alphabet,
you learn how to write this in the paragraph, then you learn
how to write an essay, and voila, you can write as many
novels or history books or orange books as you're capable
of writing. So what comes to mind there is
(43:28):
the point that has been well made on the podcast and well
made in in your book, Nathan, that the, the the collection of
wide arrays of Qatar really onlyserve to confuse.
You know, you don't you simply don't need that many.
(43:48):
You know, the three, the three Weichi kata are enough.
And as as Tom said, whether whether they're good enough is
is a different question, but certain that you don't need more
than that. You don't need to create 10 new
Zai kata, because you've got everything that you need in
those, in those three, and adding more and more and more
(44:10):
serves only to confuse and probably detract from the
ability to use them spontaneously.
You create a lot of confusion for your body.
You want to be able to programmecertain certain movements,
certain ways of using the PSI in.
What you don't want to do is addendless numbers of catter on top
(44:33):
of that to try and account for every possible scenario every
what if, because you'll never beable to do all of that
spontaneously. Yeah, Yeah.
May I ask you? Oh, go ahead, Tom.
No, you go ahead. I, I, I just wanted to ask Matt
(44:56):
what it's a bit of, it's a bit not an easy it's, I don't want
to send you a curveball, but here it comes.
What was the, what was the new on kata when training in
Kenjutsu or in tours in IEDO? Sorry.
Well, that's, I mean, that's, that's interesting actually,
(45:18):
because the, the, the Japanese weapon systems, as I've
practised them, they do have a lot of kata.
They do have a lot of set cater where a does a technique and B
responds. And then, you know, almost add
nauseam. You have cater after cater after
(45:40):
cater. And so actually I, I can, I can
sort of sympathise with the, with the question of, well, how
do you deal with this and how doyou deal with that?
Because they, they see there's lots and lots of these, these
cater all put together, none of them spontaneous by the way.
They're all completely choreographed with set pieces.
(46:03):
So I I can of course, that's allsort of in the format of a duel
and everyone knows what everyone's doing.
And the odd the objective is, isthe performance of it.
Really. I never witnessed anybody,
anybody pick up a Bokken or, andhave somebody else pick up a bow
(46:27):
or, or a Joe or anything and free play.
I never saw that happen. And I, and I don't mean to
detract from the practitioners. I, I met some very, very skilled
people within that remit. But I, I, I honestly never met
anybody that I thought would last very long if it was just an
(46:51):
open, an open free sparring situation.
And of course that's, you know, it is widely not possible really
because you're, you're dealing with, although you're dealing
with wooden weapons, by and large, they, they still do a lot
of damage. You you don't want a concussion
or broken bones, but it, it's it's all contained within those
(47:16):
fixed choreographed catter. And and that's probably a a
mentality that's that's it stillpermeates a lot of attempts at
applying Qatar. I mean, it's it's a different
ball game when it comes to the karate.
(47:37):
What do we call it? Well, the the bunkai, the whole
bunkai currency. Yeah, I'm sorry, Nathan, I don't
know if that satisfies your yourcurveball question.
I think it raises a good question as well that how do you
get from choreographed set pieces to spontaneity?
(48:00):
How does that lead to that? And I don't think it does.
And I think it does connect withthe bunkai because what we're
seeing more and more of now are two, two man set pieces.
So they go through a cat. You see this on seminars now
where you learn a bunkai sequence that covers the whole
(48:23):
kata. So that much like that you see
in the kenjutsu or the the jodo or you know, and so on and so
on. And these set long set pieces.
And how does that lead to spontaneity?
I've never heard a good case that doing set pieces over and
over again leads to spontaneity and the ability to improvise.
(48:46):
And I don't think you see that in the antique Qatar.
I don't think that they are set pieces with the exception of
Nihanshin, but that's a different conversation.
But in terms of the way Chi reforms preserved in the way Chi
or the the shoring reforms preserved in Shoring Roo, what
they teach is not something thatis to be organised in a set, set
(49:08):
piece, a long piece of choreography with the idea that
it could somehow be become spontaneous.
It's something that's supposed to be able to exist it within
spontaneity, not create it. Couldn't agree more, Tom.
Couldn't agree more. Yeah, 11 doesn't lead to to to
(49:31):
the other. And in fact, that's an
assumption that's made and also something that is used to by by
teachers to prop up their styles.
And and again, no disrespect to any styles or any teachers, but
I always said to creditingtons, we were quite good friends years
(49:53):
ago. He was a a what a instructor,
quite senior, I think. And I asked him the the pair and
I'm not again attacking a style,just looking at the the thinking
or examining in the the practise.
(50:13):
But the water view has very distinctive pears work, which is
admirable in in, in in one respect.
But the problem I had with it when I came across it was those
the pears work bore firstly no resemblance to the cattle, which
then through further open make further questions as to well,
(50:37):
they've got here with these pears work, but they're not like
the cattle. So we've got the pears work,
we've got basics. Why do we need to eat cattle?
It just it just whether alienated the cattle because the
pears work whilst they bought. You could stretch it a bit and
think, well, it looks a bit likethe cattle, but not really.
(50:57):
You know, they were quite distinctive.
That's that that rings that thatsound similar to what you were
speaking about on our last podcast about the Wing Chung
where you were saying that the forms that they they weren't
contained in, in the pair's work.
You you can see it. Wow, spent three years trying
(51:21):
to, yeah, yeah. So I tried 23 of us.
We spent like Tom with his threeyears, which I do the Khushanku
with a side. We spent a lot of time trying to
maybe I was wrong, maybe the thinking was wrong, but my
assumption was that here are theforms, here's the sticking hand.
(51:42):
Should we not be able to put allof the forms, the techniques
from the forms? Maybe no, maybe that's shallow
thinking. Maybe some of the techniques are
designed to be used on the gap on a distance.
But but the whole ring Chun genre, the whole practise is
done close, close quarters. Like couldn't find anything
really. It was the long distance in ring
(52:06):
channel. It was not a long distance
style. It was close quarters.
Everything was close quarters and you know, the, the, the, the
ethos was you need to express everything to the pushing hands.
Never managed to do it. Never saw anyone that did and
still haven't to date I think when.
(52:27):
Matt and I, we used to train in in Dodo together, the Japanese
short star that would go againstthe sword.
We we would do these long choreography pieces of
choreography and you know, they would try and add a little bit
of extra spice into it by sort of going as quick and as hard as
we could with it. And you know, it certainly it
(52:48):
felt effective within the choreography, But I, when I
think back, I don't think I could have been spontaneous or
improvise with it. I mean, I wasn't that didn't do
it for that long and wasn't thatgood at it.
But I what we did do, I never felt that that could lead to
that ability to improvise. And and even with the the wheat
(53:11):
in China nation, because you could produce, even if you could
produce those forms in the sticking hands, does would that
necessarily lead to spontaneity or the ability to apply in a
fight? You know, it's, it's, I think
it's similar, a similar thing. Well, yes, I, I hats off to your
(53:36):
modesty, Tom. But Matt, you've, you've been,
you've both, you know, competed at quite high levels as far as I
understand. Yes, yeah, absolutely.
International competitions, yeah, but they're, they're
those, those competitions, thosetaikai are of course they're,
(53:59):
they're based on the performanceof those set pieces.
And that's and that's largely how it goes.
The competitions are are based on the performative idea of
those of those set pieces. And Tom, you're absolutely
right. It doesn't, it doesn't lead to
being able to use these things spontaneously.
(54:23):
Far from people get very good. They're very, you know,
technically very, very good at performing these, these set
pieces over and over again. But spontaneous it isn't.
It's all within very, very defined parameters.
I think the choreography is, is also instils something that
(54:45):
might work against an individualif they thought they were going
to go and fight with it. The idea of an exchange or
backwards or forwards is not an idea you necessarily want to
internalise for a fight or a combative situation.
No, you know, we talked about ita lot.
You know, going first is is crucial and keep going until the
(55:07):
job's done is the idea of it. If I'm going to exchange with
someone, I think that's really problematic, especially with
what happens. Yeah, no, I, I, I absolutely
agree. I mean, we did come to that
conclusion a number of years agothat the the Joe staff, you
(55:29):
could well use it as as a weaponagainst a swordsman, but not
reactively. Yeah.
Not reactively, because the second, the second that blade
comes out of the scabbard, you're done.
Because that's one of the most, that's one of the most
devastating cutting weapons thathumanity is created.
(55:52):
And you've got a short, you've got a four foot long wooden
staff. No, I mean, you've got to go
first. You've got to get in and you've
got to prevent that swordsman from drawing that sword.
And and it's the same principle with the sigh, isn't it?
You've got to, you've got to be proactive.
You've got to go first. You've got to read the situation
(56:16):
very, very quickly and know whatit is that you need to do to
prevent escalation. Otherwise otherwise it's a very
much an open game and you're likely to lose.
I think that's why there isn't aspace for a Plan B because if
you know what you've got to do and if you haven't achieved it,
(56:39):
then I don't think that there's space for Plan BI Think you
realise you're in deep shit if you haven't got the job done.
And that, and again, it speaks to these, these skills aren't
perfect. You know, if they're applied
well, you can do the job. You can, you know, these
different Marshall systems in these in these cattle, if you
(57:00):
know, if they've done well and you know, but you're not going
to win every time. There's there's no guarantees.
There's no it doesn't produce perfect skill, it doesn't
produce perfect outcomes. And so and that's those are kind
of assumptions that creep in. Well, I've got these really good
bunkai. If someone grabs me from behind
(57:21):
or grabs my wrist or my lapel orthrows a right hook out, I've
got it made because I've got my it's.
It's not necessarily true. Even if you could predict those
things to some degree effectively, it doesn't mean
that you're the outcomes going to is is implied by the
technical content. Well, Matt, you'd said something
(57:43):
about the manner of what ifs, Yeah.
Is it natural to reach out or grab for a weapon or the the the
the hand holding the weapon? No, I, I, I, I mean, I, I, sorry
to, to be fairly blunt, but no, I, I don't think so.
(58:03):
I think that rather under underplays natural instinctive
reactions of getting out of there.
I I don't, I don't think I don'tthink it's a natural thing to
grab for a a weapon controlling hand.
I don't, I don't, I don't I don't see that that's a natural
(58:28):
progression in in an exchange you probably would more be
probably be more inclined to tryand disengage and and get away
just out of sheer self preservation.
I could be wrong. I could be wrong.
I think that was off the off theback of someone suggesting that
(58:49):
if the sigh techniques didn't work, that somebody could grab
the sigh or twist it out of could it be?
What would you do then? And I think we'd kind of, it was
descending into the, into the what ifs and, and then, you
know, and I think those, those are questions that the
(59:12):
character, I don't think there were, they're not part of the
catter. It's not part of the method.
You know, things will go wrong. It's but it's wanting some sort
of reassurance, isn't it, that if I do this, everything's going
to be OK and it's going to work and I'll be effective.
And, and and that's catter. We're not perfect.
(59:32):
And that's, and it's just not true.
But we we're also talking about people that would have people
that would have used these skills were being trained
professionals. And that probably meant that
they'll be elite athletes as they'll be equivalent of elite
athletes. We're not talking about
recreational practitioners that train 2 hours a week.
(59:55):
We're talking about people whosejob it was to employ the PSI or
to be a palace guard or a bodyguard or to be a mercenary
or part of a militia. That would have been the whole
life would have been. The, the use and, and, and
application of these weapons andtools and, and the physicality
(01:00:17):
that comes with it. So I don't think it's to be
judged on a recreational level. It's about how much would a
professional have been training,how fit they would have been,
how strong they would have been If you took the kind of top crop
of the UFC and gave them these skills, I imagine they'd be
pretty devastating in those particular roles.
(01:00:38):
You know, they're because they're elite athletes.
They're highly capable. They can fight already.
It's not that they learn these martial skills and they can
suddenly fight. They can, you know, they're
highly, they're natural born fighters.
They can do it already. And you add some skills in and
God, they're devastating, absolutely devastating.
Or you add a system for a particular role, for a
(01:01:00):
particular context. So, yeah, I think that's an
important part of it that would have that is essential for
these. Marshall systems Nathan last two
minutes. Well they're they're either
police or militia and they're professionals.
(01:01:22):
Yeah, they're not people training in essentially heated
Dojo and comfort and warrants twice a week.
Not the same thing at all. Yeah, that's a grout of the
Amelia of but professional necessity as distinct I would re
(01:01:44):
emphasise from previous podcast as distinct from warfare, which
is a different Max altogether, but think militia and.
Policing professionals. That's why Qatar are not
perfect. Tom, six word summary, all
(01:02:09):
right. And that wraps up our compelling
discussion on why kata are not perfect, with insights into the
historical context and practicallimitations of kata today.
We've learnt that kata are foundational tools, maps of
martial skills, rather than prescriptive, all-encompassing
(01:02:30):
guides for every possible confrontation.
The emphasis should be on improvisation and understanding
their original context, often involving weapons.
If this discussion resonated with you, please subscribe to
our podcast, visit our website for additional resources, and
join our community on social media to continue the
(01:02:52):
conversation. Your support helps us keep
debunking. Those legends?
Welcome to another illuminating episode of Great Karate Myths,
Debunking the legends. Today we're excited to welcome
Matt Turda, A seasoned martial arts instructor and long time
member of the Koduru Group. In today's discussion, we tackle
A fundamental concept that's often misunderstood our kata.
Truly perfect. We'll explore the inherent
(00:26):
limitations of kata, why a focuson spontaneous improvisation is
more crucial than prescribed scenarios, and how the
historical and cultural origins of these forms will reveal their
true purpose, which often involves weapon deployment, not
just unarmed combat. If you ever wondered about the
practical application and true depth of ficata, stick around.
(00:53):
Let's start with MAP. Greetings, Map.
Greetings. Yeah, thank you very much.
Well, I guess in our, in our brief discussion, we, we sort of
discerned that I've been part ofthe Kodo group for, well, at
least over 20 years. My, my background in, in martial
arts is, is varied. I started at the age of seven
(01:15):
with wadaroo, which is common theme, I think when I was 7.
So yeah, I've, I've done other things along the way,
particularly classical Japanese weapons arts as well, some
Aikido and and other bits and pieces, some Kung Fu.
So yeah, long time investment and a long time member of the
(01:38):
Kodo Group, which has been a staple for probably 1/4 of a
century or so. Excellent.
Thanks, Matt. OK, let's get into our
discussion today. Tom do.
You want to open. Yeah, cat or not Perfect.
As we're not perfect, yeah, yeah, it's the couple of things
(02:01):
really. It's about limitations of kata
and how much content is useful. So I was having a conversation
with someone yesterday and they asked me if I thought that
Sanchin, for example, was the basic method and say san and San
(02:28):
say to you were a backup plan ora Plan B if the sanction goes
wrong. And I, I sort of said in
response, no. And because I don't think
there's anything prescribed in the cattle, I don't think that
there are Benarios or if something goes wrong you do this
(02:48):
or anything like that. And I think that the cattle have
a limited amount of con content.And the idea is, is that you
don't have too much so that you can still be spontaneous with
it. So you have a map of the
territory, you have you, you have your fundamental system,
(03:10):
the martial, the set of martial skills.
And you're, the idea is that youwouldn't be able to improvise
with that as you engage or, or whatever.
It's not scenario based choreography and having a full
back plan or anything like that.And I think it it, as I was
chatting with the friend, we, wetalked about how much, how much
(03:34):
would be useful. So if you take some, we've
talked about Kusanku a lot. So I'll just use that as an
example, which is disarming a bow.
How much information is going tobe useful to you and how much is
going to keep you within that threshold of being able to
improvise and be spontaneous andnot start to create an
(03:55):
artificial process whereby you kind of get stuck in overload
with having too many techniques or too many idea conflicting
ideas or something like that. And, and I don't think that kata
should have all the answers either.
So the idea kata are not perfectis that it's not, it's not the
(04:15):
answer to every single question or possibility or problem that
someone's going to encounter. That's what improvisation would
argue. That's, you know, being
spontaneous and improvising as problems arise is, is the order
of the day, I think in, in termsof these martial skills and
martial systems. And and I don't think we should
(04:35):
expect Qatar to have the answer to every problem or everything
like that. They're fundamental methods.
They're maps of the territory. And you can explore and
improvise in any, you know, within those sets of skills.
So yeah. Nathan, do you want to jump in
(04:56):
your thoughts? Yeah, I'm happy to jump in.
Yeah, this is a rhetorical question, but is it or is it not
the case? Well, let's there are myriad
cata, many, many cata. I can go through the styles, but
(05:18):
we've done that in previous podcasts.
So we could say there are sort of in modern karate, there are
50 cata plus 50 cata and growing, not including homemade
Isles that create cata. Is it or is it not the case that
and and would I be wrong suggestwould I be wrong here that
(05:40):
catcher grow in number as peoplerecord all of the different
possibilities it it it could occur in self defence?
Is that is that correct thinking?
It's making things too prescriptive.
If you've got too much. Is that point again about being
too prescriptive of things and, and trying to control something
(06:04):
that really is almost impossibleto control, which is how an
altercation is going to unfold or unravel or thinking that you
could have a backup plan. It suggests that you could in
some way predict what's what's going to happen.
And I think that there are, there are sets of ideas about
how if you do things in a particular way, you could
(06:26):
predict what happens next. And I don't think that's the
case, especially when it comes to violence and fighting.
And so when things become too prescriptive, you or you have
too much information, too many techniques, you start to it, it
takes away that ability to improvise.
It takes that ability to respondas things arise in in the in the
(06:48):
melee or, or what you know, whatever.
And and we've we've much of thisbefore, but it's, it's it's
yeah, interesting. You need to know and you're and
you're quite right, you but you can imagine a Westerner sitting
down to think how did they, how do these cattle occur?
(07:11):
How do they make them? How do they design them?
Look at the linear thinking processes that are used that are
not decrying left brain linear thinking that might look at this
the problem of creating cattle. Well, OK, we're going to look
at, for instance, things that people do regularly.
(07:34):
There's, there's 11 teacher and author who lists these as
habitual acts of violence and his, his his thesis describes
cattle responses to habitual acts of violence.
We do regularly literally and and his idea is that that is the
(08:00):
the cornerstone of the key for how Qatar were originally
created and how they should be viewed.
And I know this particular author and senior martial
artist. We've had our discussions, but
sufficiently so I, I don't completely agree with that on
the grounds that how do you set the how can you be sure that
(08:24):
your habitual acts of violence of ubiquitous universal across
cultures across the board? And clearly they're not.
So we've said before that that we do have to look at culture
and context and history. And so the island of Okinawa,
(08:45):
for example, would would be a completely environment and and
culture from that of, of, of a city in in England, London or
Liverpool or Manchester or Coventry or Birmingham.
And the idea that we can tailor these particularly antique
(09:08):
Qatar, tailor these, these in some cases quite ancient Qatar
that possibly possibly stemmed from Ming dynasty China.
Or give that a date at the end of that was 154445.
But suddenly the patterns that were passed on from that time
period should an altercation in a nightclub or, you know, at the
(09:30):
entrance to a nightclub or a pubor, you know, in in 2025, that's
quite a big ask. And the the point is, if you
look at the left brain way of approaching this and how the
rest of them might think, you know, how would we go about
this? Well, we've got to look out for
a right punch. So I'll, I know I'll do, I'll
(09:51):
do, I'll do locks and counters on both sides.
And that seems to be what the cattle are indicating that we,
we should be able to perform allthese defences and counters on
both sides. So that's how that cattle is
struck. Somebody hits you with the
right, you razor block and then you counter with the right, and
(10:14):
then you repeat on the other side and, and and so on and,
and, and then the person closes the reins down.
And so you use an elbow of a close range and so on.
And that's a completely mistakenidea as to how the the cattle
unfolded. And as we've, we said, you know,
repeatedly throughout our podcast to a start, a lot of the
(10:35):
cattle that we're examining deploy weapons if they're not
deploying weapons. So I mean not forever stuck to
Antuna Celi San and San Celiu, but but if they're not deploying
weapons as Thomas capably illustrated, we'll be
illustrating on on on film. I'm told rule rule all that they
(10:56):
are counter to weapons. Disarming someone from a bow or
retaining the grip of your own bow, whopping and cleaning with
side pre empting in civil arrestsituations.
These are not static scenario block and and counter they they
can't be further from that. So I think effectively the the
(11:20):
idea that that of that they needto be perfect as we discussed in
previous class is a nonsense. You can't make something to
cover. Every eventuality will be like
sitting down and deciding in themorning before you walked out
the door in some sort of paranoid fashion.
(11:43):
You know what? I'm going to sit down and think
of everything that could go wrong today.
And then I'm going to write downwhat could go wrong and what I
could do to to defend against itor or solve that, whatever.
So I'm going to, I'm not going to walk out the door because
something might happen. I'm going to be prepared.
I'm going to consider every threat or danger that could and
(12:05):
I'm going to write it down and I'm going to write down that
that's not the way that Nakata were, were, were created at all.
That's not the mindset that thatthat created them.
And, and it's it's timely now torepeat that in order to for
those structures to exist, generally speaking, and quite
frequently, we we have to step away from the idea that these
(12:27):
are patterns to go against unarmed, spontaneous, you know,
attacks in in a self defence, particularly in an urban self
defence situation, because they're not the way that
tribulates not only the EMBO, the floor plan, the direction of
movement, but also the hand positions, the the arm
(12:51):
positions, right. Actually centred around either
the use of or going against a weapon, which limits the range
of movement into patterns that can be somewhat predicted dead
and turned into a forepot. And and that's completely
different from trying to come upwith a a perfect self defence
(13:14):
for anything that might happen to me to 1 should 1 be randomly
attacked. Yeah, you know, I.
Think it's, I think it's very noticeable actually that when
the the weapons or use of weapons is taken out as a
context and people try to apply these antique forms in a
(13:38):
fisticuffs sort of fashion, theyby and large they have to
abandon the actual form and the way that it the movements.
I saw a video just just the other day of somebody trying to
apply the first few techniques of Nehansi Shodan.
(13:59):
And I mean his application of itbore absolutely no resemblance
to the actual no hands you form.So that really does speak to the
idea that if, if you take it outof its proper context and its
proper use, you've got to get creative with even the actual
structure of the form, which is obviously, well, why bother with
(14:25):
the form then? Why bother practising it
correctly? A cynical view here is is is
Qatar a currency? It's almost almost the creative
interpretation and the the application is currency.
(14:47):
But if you if you if you keep making up applications, you know
which anyone can do, you can keep those seminars busy for
years. Can't.
Ah, well, you know, it's. It's not just the seminars, it's
views now clicks and views and. Yeah, yeah.
But you know, it's, it brings you to question really, how long
(15:09):
should a professional using these arts.
So somebody that was trained in the civil arrest skills or any
of the different systems that we've talked about, how long
would their professional training be and what would the
maintenance be? You know, it's not going to be
20 or 30 years. And it's a kind of martial arts
(15:29):
myth, isn't it's a karate myth. You've got to apprentice
yourself to someone for 40 yearsand it's all a load of rubbish,
you know, because it's easy to say that if you said, well
there's always more to learn andyou could keep it going forever
because you could keep making itup, couldn't it?
It just goes on ad nauseam really.
(15:50):
And actually these cutter, you know, had to function and once
you've learnt it, you've learnt it.
There's no like, well, is there anything else?
No, well, no, this is it. You've read the manual, you've
you've trained it, you've used it.
How many more times do you want to keep going?
I know you know there there's ways of improving.
And I think the ways of improving come from the feedback
(16:12):
from real experience or experience with resisting
training partners, which is how someone might develop their
personal practise, but the collecting of more and more and
more. Yeah, I think you're exactly
right, Shania. I think it's a, it is a form of
currency, isn't it? Well.
I'd like to have a go at qualifying that if I may.
(16:34):
You used the the perfect term pretty much in here in saying
that Qatar are currency, they became currency.
So if we look at the creation ofBooty Rue Karate, which is very
much the the brainchild and the creation of, of Miyagi chosen
(16:58):
Sensei as as late as to as late as 19110 because Maggie, I'll
shortly just Maggie Cenci. Maggie Cenci was a conscript in
the he found himself a conscriptin the Japanese army, much to
(17:19):
his chagrin. And I'm not sure he was mad
about that, but he wrote to various people while he he was
on service and one of them he wrote to Kyodo Jihatsu, his
senior under Higashianna 18 yearold and lamenting the fact that
Kyodo Jihatsu had begun to learnthe the San Selyu allegedly and
(17:44):
Nagi Nagi was a bit misk and andand and was a written record.
He had up to that point only learned Tukata, Sanchin and
Sasan. So back at the ranch, his senior
was busy being taught the third cater and cater will are a
(18:06):
premium then. And it's quite interesting to
know that the parallel system, which personally, I it's my
belief that I think we share thebelief as a group that the, that
the, that the cat are actually originated from a common source
in frugal. But it doesn't Notwithstanding
that Maggie, Maggie Senzio only knew 2 Catablade 1910, bearing
(18:29):
in mind that it was in 1917 thathe created the 10 show catter.
And if you look at the Kyodo du Hatsu, he actually only learned
3 catter from Higashi on is sensing 3 Qatar Sanchin Seisan
(18:53):
Sanceriu. Now it's quite interesting that
meanwhile back at the rage. So let's go on sort of let's
let's look at what Finucosi sentto he was learning for 10 years.
Oh yes, Nahanchin 1, Nahanchin 2and Nahanchin 3 by his own
(19:14):
maturity recorded himself. He spent 10 years on the
Nyhanjian series, 10 years. But it seems to me that in order
to make karate more quote progressive and and more to
attract more students. I think Qatar and back to
Shania's term were a currency currency.
(19:37):
And and it's in fact in the withrespect to the style of Gojiru,
they were not the set 12 that are creating this style as far
as I'm aware. And and and virtually until
right at the end of Magi Sensi'sdeath, until the end of his life
or in fact, after his death, when his senior students who'd
(20:00):
only been taught 3 cattle apiece, he electivised these
cattle, put them together and created a major system out of
some twelve 12th cattle. So it it early practitioners did
not know. 12 Qatar plus 12 in Guru, 15 in Wadaroo, 27 and
(20:24):
growing in Shukan or or or or Sturu.
Sturu collects everyone's katar and has no disrespect to Sturu.
You know they're hedging their bets.
They do all of the Goju katar and all of the Shurin Ru katar
and they do some 50 plus katar plus some very obscure Chinese
katar that they seem to have added in the last 30 or 40
(20:48):
years. My point is that they did in
fact these Qatar did in fact become currency.
Well chosen word. But they that that that is a a a
smoke. It's a false trail because it's
assumed that these Qatar are allindependent stand alone Qatar.
(21:11):
And in some respects they can be.
And so in the case of Tom's understanding of Kushanku, which
I embrace, it's a particular function to do with a staff.
But then, correct me if I'm wrong anybody, but so is
possibly the pasai or the chinto.
(21:32):
I've got to get these the right way.
Round one's tomfurt and one is retaining your bow.
So forgive my failing memory, but the the actual styles, the
sequences Sanchez and Sanceriu, the Nyhanchen series, generally
they're not really a collection of cat.
(21:53):
The Nyhanchen series is 1 catterbroken into three parts.
And I think that the the the Waititi, the Sanchez and
Sanceriu is similarly 1 catter broken into 3 modular parts for
teaching. And I'd extend them that to the
ringtone. Not my original idea.
It was Yip Man's own son Yip Sonthat told me private
(22:15):
conversation in my own home thathe suspected that the ringtone
form ZE Feral may well have beenone form one complete form
originally. I completely agree with that.
And I think same is true for Sanchin, Sezan and Sanselyu.
The same for the the Mohanshin series and similarly the
(22:40):
Kusanku, Chinto and Pasai also will will be will be related for
similar reasons, although those 3 should not be lunged together
I. Was just thinking it reminds me
of of. It's a bit like mysticism, isn't
it? Keep everybody in.
Full and in war. And mystified of the the Master
(23:01):
who knows everything. And actually he doesn't.
He doesn't know everything. It's quite funny, actually.
But you're right. I think it's right.
Currency. It's a currency.
Yeah, I agree. Just going jumping back quickly
to cat and not being perfect. And I think it's worth
mentioning that there's this assumption which I've
(23:24):
encountered across the board that that the the information in
a CAT was any good in the 1st place.
So just because we know what thefunctions are or or we've reset
or we've, you know, ongoing workrather doesn't mean that they're
any good in the 1st place. So you can have a kata like Goju
Shiho, which is Tomfa or Weiji Sanchin and say San that a sigh.
(23:49):
But that doesn't necessarily just because they are, that
doesn't mean that they are particularly good methods in the
1st place. That's something else.
That's something else to be explored and to looked at,
whether it's where the Kusanku is a good method of disarming
the bow. Is it an is it one that could be
affected? Or is it just been made-up with
someone that sort of fancied having a go at that in the
(24:11):
first, You know, and there's plenty of that in the world.
There's plenty of cattle that have been made-up.
Even people from our own group have made-up their own forms.
Just because the cattle exist doesn't mean that they're high
quality in the 1st place. And so that there's that, that
element of cattle not being perfect and we shouldn't assume
(24:32):
that it's all superb, high quality, top notch stuff.
It could be an absolute pile of horseshit.
And so we need to kind of consider what how pragmatic
these skills are when we're researching them and looking at
them. Could, could I just terrify a
(24:52):
point, Tom? Nobody that's active in our
group creates cat because that'sa no no for us.
I think you'll refer. Makes you shut the past.
In the past. Sorry, yeah.
You claimed with us that the particular individual and
decided that he knew better and he could he could create create
(25:13):
cater. So he created an entire star,
named it and created his own cater.
That's not something that that that that ever happens within
our group. We mean not one of us creates a
I've always bulked it that all of us have of of warden yukata
And there's there's enough to toto search through and and tidy
(25:36):
up and understand, you know, as it is without without making
confusion, you know, making moreparticularly wrong things as
this individual. In my view.
Did just thinking about. The code of Rukata really and
(25:57):
just strikes me that what we have is a framework of if you
like. I don't like the word techniques
but technique. I use the word techniques but
they are actually applied in thepushing hands and you can apply
them as they are in the Carter. Which is quite.
(26:17):
A lot different to, well, most other practises I would say.
I can't think of any any other group actually that does that.
No. And I think we're quite clear.
We are quite clear on saying that they are creative
interpretations as far as Sanjinand Rukushu go.
(26:40):
Rukushu, yeah. But they're creative
interpretations of a creative interpretation.
Yeah, but they actually do do. You can actually apply them in
the pushing hands as they are inthe Carter.
Yeah, which is, is completely different.
It's completely different to what you'd count when you were
house. So yeah, forward to seeing our
(27:02):
phrases there. Yeah.
Yeah, I, I think very rarely that you get anyone saying yes,
I've just made this up. No.
No, no. I think that's an important
point though, because just something that came up in my
conversation yesterday with, with Nicola, our friend in
(27:23):
Denmark, was that the, you have,you have all these applications
being made-up. All this creative interpretation
of the antique cat are taking place.
But what's generally omitted as they publish their information
or discuss it is that they made it up.
(27:47):
And, and I, and that, you know, I, I said to yesterday that if
you make a statement about an antecata or you suggest a
movement could be this. You're making a statement about
the function, you're making a statement about the context and
you're to making a statement about what the intended function
(28:09):
of it was for. And so that's, you know, and if
you've made that up, I think it's important to, to, to, to
state that I don't think there'sanything wrong with the creative
interpretation. I think it's, it's got its place
and it's got its use. But in terms of the antique
forms, I think all roads eventually lead to the original.
(28:32):
What, what were these forms originally for?
And being, you know, being honest about, well, I'm just
making up some applications because I quite fancy it to be
self defence. That's what I want it to be for
and, and and so on and so on. But yeah, that that point is
(28:52):
like you essentially when you got the kind of the bunkai
specialists, if you like, they never say, well, these are the
ones I've made it up this season.
Stay tuned for season 27 next year where I get well, I'm back
on the term and I'll circuit with.
(29:12):
And we're back and we're back onthe currency again.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I can remember my Lao Gardez
and when I was about 14, oh, God, some of those forms they
did was dislike. What the heck are they?
What? They're really elaborate.
(29:33):
Interesting. I never, ever, ever saw any, any
of the material used in sparringor anything like that.
It's just total crap. Yeah, it's just nonsense.
If I can shift sideways for a second because I was considering
yesterday, I was considering a very popular YouTube who had a
(30:00):
thumbnail sort of claiming that the kata, the karate kata Sesan
is the oldest kata question mark.
I'd like to address the questionmark unless anyone else.
Yeah. First of all, what do we mean by
(30:24):
say Shannon when Mario Higuon sensei and he is a very well and
I'm not talking about how much he is the really world renowned
go to instruction. You know, really did Howard
gradually collateral Ford his contribution to the BBC English,
(30:47):
BBC Way of the Warrior series inwhich he he featured well, had
an episode. He went to China to try to find
the roots of Gojivgu Karate. He couldn't find the roots.
He could find many forms with the same names as the forms that
(31:09):
he had in Gojiru, the ones that he had learned.
So he could find the names, but he could not find the same
Qatar. Sure, everybody had a Sanchim.
And then guess what? So many of the systems had a
Seisan and a San Seru. Interestingly, he could not find
the Sepi, the Korunfa. He could not find basically the
(31:32):
like the the Gojiri Qatar in as you anywhere in China, anywhere
he was living. I don't mean to imply that
they're not there just because he couldn't find them, but I get
the impression he was quite thorough.
And the the reality is that there are those those the names
(31:56):
of those Catholics have many different forms type quite
difficult to compare the frugal season with the Roji Sasan and
compare that with the Sodukan Hungeksi or or or or the OR the
(32:20):
word say sham. So they, the pronunciations are
whether it's Sasan in whether itwas Sasan in or hungeksi.
They're very nuanced. They've changed that.
They have. We altered to fit the format of
(32:43):
the style in which they're beingreflected.
Then if you try and compare thatwith various Chinese films, you
get a problem. We all like our group that's
collectively yours. The opinion That and the weighty
theme is incredibly accurate andWeighty Sanchez is the gold
(33:08):
standard that is absolutely the gold standard.
Tom and I have had and all of usamongst ourselves a number of
conversations about this and which I asked Tom whether he
several accordions and we've hadprotective discussions about
this whether he that the the month this that that my my dear
(33:34):
friend Simon Leahy was good enough to don't even he got
there in slow turn in China. I got early exposure to it and
our group got very early exposure to the Happo and the
the Bavulian and the the writer Pam McCarthy demux.
But they did this Indian he was in England and we spent some
(33:57):
time together. It's very interesting to see,
you know, in an early stage those those those forms, but
someone like after a considerable amount of study and
practise and conversation. But I asked from quite bluntly,
do you think that the way she is?
(34:18):
Yeah, more more accurate is likethe word pure, but I use it more
pure. And Tom, I think response was
pretty much yes, undoubtedly I think.
We've got as far as to say. Our joint view is that the Reiki
say Sam bringing out on a limb here, but likely pre lates like
(34:41):
a lot of the other versions, because it also it shows that
connection a very clear connection to to the Reichi
Sanchin like that could be argued in the in the case of
digress for a second here and say that thanks to the karate
appear very late and have no parallels in China none
(35:03):
whatsoever. Like this.
Weirdly, children senses like Qatar do not occur in the Tom
Roux to torn Roux the creation of like what did you Hatson, the
most senior student on must havetaken Laggy's Higashi on the
Penrose. In other words, the style
(35:24):
created by senior Tom Roux only taught Sanchin Sesan Sancerian.
Later he did keep the 4th Qatar.It's it just takes me now.
But effectively there were none of the Qatar that you find that
are found in Gojulu in in Thornblu.
(35:48):
Those Qatar don't exist. In fact they only exist in
Gojulu. Crazy though their name sets do
exist in China and can be found in Siamese forms, but most of
those forms hardly resemble well, they resemble them at all
(36:08):
except they have a beginning andmiddling in it resemble them.
It is our our collective opinion.
That's the seisan Qatar is not astand alone Qatar.
It's not You can't just take it out.
(36:28):
And it's interesting that the Nahar Qatar that would be the
goes and the weights you do and all the the derivatives do not
have stand alone. Whereas the Kushanku, it seems
to me and Tom's the best one to to elaborate on this, But the
Kushanku, the Chinto, the Pasai Canbury standalone, we have the
(36:56):
specific department, unlike unlike the rated series or or or
the ringtone. The ringtone, for instance, have
a common theme right the way through.
There is no common theme. It's and mile hand gene and
that's quite important. So my point was they cannot go a
(37:17):
stand alone say sham katta coming from the the Nahad and by
the time it finds its way in recent Shattergun, which is all
the is a broad based amalgam of Qatar in which the functions
that will be disciplined will not be none.
(37:41):
And and that's no disrespect to set the time.
I've already expressed my admiration for the quality of
their karate according to their own deal of what karate is.
I, I, you know, no disrespect tothem, but they do not they,
they, they have a highly eclectic of Qatar in Wicksville,
(38:05):
where Asian has become unguettry.
And there this is not a clear transmit.
And I repeat, sorry, I, I repeatthat the, the, the Sasian is not
a standalone factor. It's part of a trilogy.
(38:25):
It means Sanchin before it and probably sunset.
Are you afterwards? OK.
Matt, any thoughts? Well, I I just had to a small
devil's advocate question actually.
So if if you know, returning to the theme of the cat are not
(38:45):
being perfect. Sanchin of the of the week Julio
series is foundational. It's it's the gold standard.
I can, I can well anticipate thequestion coming.
Well, why? Why the other two?
If, if the sanction is the gold standard for manipulating the
PSI and the basic technique withthe PSI, why are the the two
(39:10):
sequential forms, the the Seisanand the Sun Sailu?
Why? Why are they necessary and why
do they seem, you know, more more elaborate?
Well, I think. The San, I think to answer that,
the San Chin is how to read a map and the Sasan and Sanseri
who are your maps and, and so and, and that and that's it.
(39:36):
And, and as I've sort of said atthe beginning, you don't want
too much more than that. There's more than enough in the
Sasan and Sanseri to give you aneffective system of site usage
and not diminish the ability to improvise and be spontaneous.
(39:58):
And and also is that question ofis it a good method of using the
site? Is it an effective method?
Because that's not also an assumption that we wouldn't
make. And so there's that exploring.
Can we be effective with it? You know, would it be, is it, is
it the best method, method ever of using the site?
Who knows? But it's a method, and it's
(40:22):
certainly. Almost undoubtedly not perfect.
There's a double negative there,sorry.
Build it, put another layer of analogy on top of yours and what
what came to my mind was venting.
I like the basic rules of a language, so this English is my
(40:45):
only language. We've all struggled with French
who have moved green and we've hit engaging that could go other
places. But the point is, the analogy I
want to make is sanction is likealphabet and creation of an
alpha, but built into that alphabet are the punctuation
(41:07):
marks that would be used in the construction of formalities,
photographs. So sanction would lay that down.
In my analogy, they would lay that down and then they sound
would be short story writing or essay writing.
It would be an example of how you would like an essay.
(41:35):
And so they're they're commentaries.
It is an ancestry or commentaries development of the
theme of of alphabet, spelling, grammar and punctuation.
Sorry, I haven't done the best with this analogy.
I think that Cezanne is is grammar and that's better.
(41:59):
And then San Seville would couldbe seen as an essay.
So they're just developments. But if you can't don't have
letters, you know you can't. How can you write anything?
So first you have the the building block and that's what
Santian is and the other two cutter are are are developments
(42:23):
of that theme that will show thepractitioner on how to write.
But that's not if you think about it, every book in the
English language is made-up of 26 letters.
Well, you know, that's quite incredible.
Millions and millions of words. I don't know how many books
there are in the world. Nobody does one all made from
(42:43):
letters. That's quite incredible.
So we could see that Santin as an as the alphabet.
We need to see the the the following cat or the following
two cat as to as how to express that developments of the theme
heading towards literature. What that's on this perfectly
right. It needs the rest of the ones
(43:04):
done in the mix spontaneously inapp to you know, in application.
In other words, right, you go toschool, you learn the alphabet,
you learn how to write this in the paragraph, then you learn
how to write an essay, and voila, you can write as many
novels or history books or orange books as you're capable
of writing. So what comes to mind there is
(43:28):
the point that has been well made on the podcast and well
made in in your book, Nathan, that the, the the collection of
wide arrays of Qatar really onlyserve to confuse.
You know, you don't you simply don't need that many.
(43:48):
You know, the three, the three Weichi kata are enough.
And as as Tom said, whether whether they're good enough is
is a different question, but certain that you don't need more
than that. You don't need to create 10 new
Zai kata, because you've got everything that you need in
those, in those three, and adding more and more and more
(44:10):
serves only to confuse and probably detract from the
ability to use them spontaneously.
You create a lot of confusion for your body.
You want to be able to programmecertain certain movements,
certain ways of using the PSI in.
What you don't want to do is addendless numbers of catter on top
(44:33):
of that to try and account for every possible scenario every
what if, because you'll never beable to do all of that
spontaneously. Yeah, Yeah.
May I ask you? Oh, go ahead, Tom.
No, you go ahead. I, I, I just wanted to ask Matt
(44:56):
what it's a bit of, it's a bit not an easy it's, I don't want
to send you a curveball, but here it comes.
What was the, what was the new on kata when training in
Kenjutsu or in tours in IEDO? Sorry.
Well, that's, I mean, that's, that's interesting actually,
(45:18):
because the, the, the Japanese weapon systems, as I've
practised them, they do have a lot of kata.
They do have a lot of set cater where a does a technique and B
responds. And then, you know, almost add
nauseam. You have cater after cater after
(45:40):
cater. And so actually I, I can, I can
sort of sympathise with the, with the question of, well, how
do you deal with this and how doyou deal with that?
Because they, they see there's lots and lots of these, these
cater all put together, none of them spontaneous by the way.
They're all completely choreographed with set pieces.
(46:03):
So I I can of course, that's allsort of in the format of a duel
and everyone knows what everyone's doing.
And the odd the objective is, isthe performance of it.
Really. I never witnessed anybody,
anybody pick up a Bokken or, andhave somebody else pick up a bow
(46:27):
or, or a Joe or anything and free play.
I never saw that happen. And I, and I don't mean to
detract from the practitioners. I, I met some very, very skilled
people within that remit. But I, I, I honestly never met
anybody that I thought would last very long if it was just an
(46:51):
open, an open free sparring situation.
And of course that's, you know, it is widely not possible really
because you're, you're dealing with, although you're dealing
with wooden weapons, by and large, they, they still do a lot
of damage. You you don't want a concussion
or broken bones, but it, it's it's all contained within those
(47:16):
fixed choreographed catter. And and that's probably a a
mentality that's that's it stillpermeates a lot of attempts at
applying Qatar. I mean, it's it's a different
ball game when it comes to the karate.
(47:37):
What do we call it? Well, the the bunkai, the whole
bunkai currency. Yeah, I'm sorry, Nathan, I don't
know if that satisfies your yourcurveball question.
I think it raises a good question as well that how do you
get from choreographed set pieces to spontaneity?
(48:00):
How does that lead to that? And I don't think it does.
And I think it does connect withthe bunkai because what we're
seeing more and more of now are two, two man set pieces.
So they go through a cat. You see this on seminars now
where you learn a bunkai sequence that covers the whole
(48:23):
kata. So that much like that you see
in the kenjutsu or the the jodo or you know, and so on and so
on. And these set long set pieces.
And how does that lead to spontaneity?
I've never heard a good case that doing set pieces over and
over again leads to spontaneity and the ability to improvise.
(48:46):
And I don't think you see that in the antique Qatar.
I don't think that they are set pieces with the exception of
Nihanshin, but that's a different conversation.
But in terms of the way Chi reforms preserved in the way Chi
or the the shoring reforms preserved in Shoring Roo, what
they teach is not something thatis to be organised in a set, set
(49:08):
piece, a long piece of choreography with the idea that
it could somehow be become spontaneous.
It's something that's supposed to be able to exist it within
spontaneity, not create it. Couldn't agree more, Tom.
Couldn't agree more. Yeah, 11 doesn't lead to to to
(49:31):
the other. And in fact, that's an
assumption that's made and also something that is used to by by
teachers to prop up their styles.
And and again, no disrespect to any styles or any teachers, but
I always said to creditingtons, we were quite good friends years
(49:53):
ago. He was a a what a instructor,
quite senior, I think. And I asked him the the pair and
I'm not again attacking a style,just looking at the the thinking
or examining in the the practise.
(50:13):
But the water view has very distinctive pears work, which is
admirable in in, in in one respect.
But the problem I had with it when I came across it was those
the pears work bore firstly no resemblance to the cattle, which
then through further open make further questions as to well,
(50:37):
they've got here with these pears work, but they're not like
the cattle. So we've got the pears work,
we've got basics. Why do we need to eat cattle?
It just it just whether alienated the cattle because the
pears work whilst they bought. You could stretch it a bit and
think, well, it looks a bit likethe cattle, but not really.
(50:57):
You know, they were quite distinctive.
That's that that rings that thatsound similar to what you were
speaking about on our last podcast about the Wing Chung
where you were saying that the forms that they they weren't
contained in, in the pair's work.
You you can see it. Wow, spent three years trying
(51:21):
to, yeah, yeah. So I tried 23 of us.
We spent like Tom with his threeyears, which I do the Khushanku
with a side. We spent a lot of time trying to
maybe I was wrong, maybe the thinking was wrong, but my
assumption was that here are theforms, here's the sticking hand.
(51:42):
Should we not be able to put allof the forms, the techniques
from the forms? Maybe no, maybe that's shallow
thinking. Maybe some of the techniques are
designed to be used on the gap on a distance.
But but the whole ring Chun genre, the whole practise is
done close, close quarters. Like couldn't find anything
really. It was the long distance in ring
(52:06):
channel. It was not a long distance
style. It was close quarters.
Everything was close quarters and you know, the, the, the, the
ethos was you need to express everything to the pushing hands.
Never managed to do it. Never saw anyone that did and
still haven't to date I think when.
(52:27):
Matt and I, we used to train in in Dodo together, the Japanese
short star that would go againstthe sword.
We we would do these long choreography pieces of
choreography and you know, they would try and add a little bit
of extra spice into it by sort of going as quick and as hard as
we could with it. And you know, it certainly it
(52:48):
felt effective within the choreography, But I, when I
think back, I don't think I could have been spontaneous or
improvise with it. I mean, I wasn't that didn't do
it for that long and wasn't thatgood at it.
But I what we did do, I never felt that that could lead to
that ability to improvise. And and even with the the wheat
(53:11):
in China nation, because you could produce, even if you could
produce those forms in the sticking hands, does would that
necessarily lead to spontaneity or the ability to apply in a
fight? You know, it's, it's, I think
it's similar, a similar thing. Well, yes, I, I hats off to your
(53:36):
modesty, Tom. But Matt, you've, you've been,
you've both, you know, competed at quite high levels as far as I
understand. Yes, yeah, absolutely.
International competitions, yeah, but they're, they're
those, those competitions, thosetaikai are of course they're,
(53:59):
they're based on the performanceof those set pieces.
And that's and that's largely how it goes.
The competitions are are based on the performative idea of
those of those set pieces. And Tom, you're absolutely
right. It doesn't, it doesn't lead to
being able to use these things spontaneously.
(54:23):
Far from people get very good. They're very, you know,
technically very, very good at performing these, these set
pieces over and over again. But spontaneous it isn't.
It's all within very, very defined parameters.
I think the choreography is, is also instils something that
(54:45):
might work against an individualif they thought they were going
to go and fight with it. The idea of an exchange or
backwards or forwards is not an idea you necessarily want to
internalise for a fight or a combative situation.
No, you know, we talked about ita lot.
You know, going first is is crucial and keep going until the
(55:07):
job's done is the idea of it. If I'm going to exchange with
someone, I think that's really problematic, especially with
what happens. Yeah, no, I, I, I absolutely
agree. I mean, we did come to that
conclusion a number of years agothat the the Joe staff, you
(55:29):
could well use it as as a weaponagainst a swordsman, but not
reactively. Yeah.
Not reactively, because the second, the second that blade
comes out of the scabbard, you're done.
Because that's one of the most, that's one of the most
devastating cutting weapons thathumanity is created.
(55:52):
And you've got a short, you've got a four foot long wooden
staff. No, I mean, you've got to go
first. You've got to get in and you've
got to prevent that swordsman from drawing that sword.
And and it's the same principle with the sigh, isn't it?
You've got to, you've got to be proactive.
You've got to go first. You've got to read the situation
(56:16):
very, very quickly and know whatit is that you need to do to
prevent escalation. Otherwise otherwise it's a very
much an open game and you're likely to lose.
I think that's why there isn't aspace for a Plan B because if
you know what you've got to do and if you haven't achieved it,
(56:39):
then I don't think that there's space for Plan BI Think you
realise you're in deep shit if you haven't got the job done.
And that, and again, it speaks to these, these skills aren't
perfect. You know, if they're applied
well, you can do the job. You can, you know, these
different Marshall systems in these in these cattle, if you
(57:00):
know, if they've done well and you know, but you're not going
to win every time. There's there's no guarantees.
There's no it doesn't produce perfect skill, it doesn't
produce perfect outcomes. And so and that's those are kind
of assumptions that creep in. Well, I've got these really good
bunkai. If someone grabs me from behind
(57:21):
or grabs my wrist or my lapel orthrows a right hook out, I've
got it made because I've got my it's.
It's not necessarily true. Even if you could predict those
things to some degree effectively, it doesn't mean
that you're the outcomes going to is is implied by the
technical content. Well, Matt, you'd said something
(57:43):
about the manner of what ifs, Yeah.
Is it natural to reach out or grab for a weapon or the the the
the hand holding the weapon? No, I, I, I, I mean, I, I, sorry
to, to be fairly blunt, but no, I, I don't think so.
(58:03):
I think that rather under underplays natural instinctive
reactions of getting out of there.
I I don't, I don't think I don'tthink it's a natural thing to
grab for a a weapon controlling hand.
I don't, I don't, I don't I don't see that that's a natural
(58:28):
progression in in an exchange you probably would more be
probably be more inclined to tryand disengage and and get away
just out of sheer self preservation.
I could be wrong. I could be wrong.
I think that was off the off theback of someone suggesting that
(58:49):
if the sigh techniques didn't work, that somebody could grab
the sigh or twist it out of could it be?
What would you do then? And I think we'd kind of, it was
descending into the, into the what ifs and, and then, you
know, and I think those, those are questions that the
(59:12):
character, I don't think there were, they're not part of the
catter. It's not part of the method.
You know, things will go wrong. It's but it's wanting some sort
of reassurance, isn't it, that if I do this, everything's going
to be OK and it's going to work and I'll be effective.
And, and and that's catter. We're not perfect.
(59:32):
And that's, and it's just not true.
But we we're also talking about people that would have people
that would have used these skills were being trained
professionals. And that probably meant that
they'll be elite athletes as they'll be equivalent of elite
athletes. We're not talking about
recreational practitioners that train 2 hours a week.
(59:55):
We're talking about people whosejob it was to employ the PSI or
to be a palace guard or a bodyguard or to be a mercenary
or part of a militia. That would have been the whole
life would have been. The, the use and, and, and
application of these weapons andtools and, and the physicality
(01:00:17):
that comes with it. So I don't think it's to be
judged on a recreational level. It's about how much would a
professional have been training,how fit they would have been,
how strong they would have been If you took the kind of top crop
of the UFC and gave them these skills, I imagine they'd be
pretty devastating in those particular roles.
(01:00:38):
You know, they're because they're elite athletes.
They're highly capable. They can fight already.
It's not that they learn these martial skills and they can
suddenly fight. They can, you know, they're
highly, they're natural born fighters.
They can do it already. And you add some skills in and
God, they're devastating, absolutely devastating.
Or you add a system for a particular role, for a
(01:01:00):
particular context. So, yeah, I think that's an
important part of it that would have that is essential for
these. Marshall systems Nathan last two
minutes. Well they're they're either
police or militia and they're professionals.
(01:01:22):
Yeah, they're not people training in essentially heated
Dojo and comfort and warrants twice a week.
Not the same thing at all. Yeah, that's a grout of the
Amelia of but professional necessity as distinct I would re
(01:01:44):
emphasise from previous podcast as distinct from warfare, which
is a different Max altogether, but think militia and.
Policing professionals. That's why Qatar are not
perfect. Tom, six word summary, all
(01:02:09):
right. And that wraps up our compelling
discussion on why kata are not perfect, with insights into the
historical context and practicallimitations of kata today.
We've learnt that kata are foundational tools, maps of
martial skills, rather than prescriptive, all-encompassing
(01:02:30):
guides for every possible confrontation.
The emphasis should be on improvisation and understanding
their original context, often involving weapons.
If this discussion resonated with you, please subscribe to
our podcast, visit our website for additional resources, and
join our community on social media to continue the
(01:02:52):
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