May 18, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode of Great Karate Myths, Debunking the Legends, hosts Shanir, Tom and Nathan tackle the misconception that karate kata are designed for self-defence. They argue that kata, rooted in antique forms like Kusanku and Chinto, were primarily for pre-emptive control and weapon use, not reactive unarmed combat. Drawing on real-world violence footage and insights from self-defence expert Jeff Thompson, they highlight the chaotic, fast nature of real fights, which contrasts with the choreographed nature of kata. The hosts also explore how cultural influences, like Chinese stage combat, have skewed perceptions of kata’s purpose. They emphasize that kata are noble, functional tools for restraint, not brutality, and discuss their modern relevance in Ko-do Ryu, where spontaneous applications via pushing hands replace outdated self-defence fantasies.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Great KARATEI Myths Debunking the Legends, a podcast
that chops through the forest of martial arts folklore to
reveal the true.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Essence of karate.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Join us your hosts, Nier, Nathan and Tom as we
take you on a journey through the dojo of Doubt,
where we question the tall tales and test the traditions
that have shaped karati as we know it, from the
mystical to the misunderstood. We break down the myths and
can build up the facts. But don't worry, debunking doesn't
mean disrespecting the art. We'll be celebrating the rich history
(00:36):
of karate while setting the record straight. Whether you're caesared
black belt, a novice starting the karaiti bath, or just
a curious listener, beare to have your preconceptions shattered and
your understanding of karate deepened. So tie up your belts,
bow in, and let's get ready to rumble with truth.
(01:02):
Welcome to this week's episode of Great Karate Myth Debunking
the Legends, and today's topic is why kata are not
self defense?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Okay, Well.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
There's one hell of a loaded statement. Tom, Where are
we going with this?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Strap in.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Uh, Well, the idea of self defense is a bit ridiculous, really,
isn't it, Because really there's violence. You know, he's going
to be if there's going to be a fight, or
you're going to be assaulted. There's only Really self defense
is a bit of a fancy idea, isn't it that
you could somehow control violence in that way or contain
(01:50):
it into you know, something neat and tidy like you
might find in a kata. Violence is chaos, it's it's mucky,
it's messy, there's nothing organized about it. The idea that
you could defend yourself as well, if someone assaulted you
and you were lucky enough to be able to take
(02:13):
a punch or a hit or a surprise and fight back,
would that look anything like a kata? Would it be
anything like that? And coming in from a cata perspective,
what what in a kata is going to be useful
in a fight? An unarmed fight, an empty handed fight?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
What?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
So? Yeah, these are the two sort of leaping off points,
and you know, jump headfirst into either of those. I
think the kata is a good place to start. I mean,
when you think about the body of antique forms kusangkhu
chinto what what about those forms is anything to do
with being stabbed or randomly assorted by a group of
(02:59):
you know, a group of people or a pub fighter.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Have what we've been told, Sally exactly, the cat is
full of blocks and strikes, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I mean, yeah, I mean the great thing about YouTube
is is that there are hundreds thousands of videos of
CCTV footage, things recorded on phones of it's not pleasant
to watch, but people being assaulted and stabbed and what
(03:33):
you know, one of the big takeaways from that is
that it's so fast and it's so vicious. Where is
how's a block gonna come into play there? How's And
you know, this is the really old topic and was
really really well covered by sort of Jeff Thompson. And
(03:53):
you know, people in that community of that were really
he created pressure tetting them martial arts and you know
that that kind of what heat the work you did,
and Nathan had his own involvement in that kind of
thing as well.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah. I just wanted to clarify Jeff Jeff Thompson because
there are several that was the I think he's not active.
He was the English English self defenseech. But I think
he famously published a book called I Believe it was
Mind My Back and That's my back, thank you, based
(04:30):
on his experiences as a as a as a dormant
a night club England that we tend to call me, well,
we used to, not anymore, I do, Tom. We used
to call them bouncers and that's what this gentleman work
worked as and he rele practical experience in a book.
(04:54):
I don't want to steal as usual steel Tom Thunder
because of people need to hear what it has to say.
But I just wanted to put a couple of items
in place just too. There are many I could do,
but just to the first one is who's doing the fighting?
(05:16):
And we know that most of them, most on most occasions,
most people going about their business don't have a fight,
and at worst we we better offender and or have
an argument or disagreement. And only the psycho and like
(05:37):
minded I really want to engage in any kind of violence.
Actually most of us, most of the time do not,
although obviously many people have to watch their tempers so
to speak. If I extend extend that to what not
an expert in armed conflict, but taking a look at
the the Vietnam Or, which was terrible pr if not
(06:04):
the waste of many thousands. I think it was sixty
one thousand plus, don't quote me American lives. There were
issues with soldiers, young men sort of sort of conscripts,
who really didn't want to fire their guns at anybody,
and they just filed them vaguely. And I can't remember
(06:24):
the stats. I used to have them for some research,
but that was about fifteen years ago. But to cut
to the chase, vast majority of the small arms fire
was completely inful. It was just that they were just
empty their magazines and run out of them and then
fall back for some more quite tech shocking. Really. Now,
(06:45):
I'm not saying anything negative about the American military because
I think in world perception or the strongest military on
the face of the on the face of the earth.
So I'm not quite doing that or any of their bravery,
just the circumstances that they found themselves in. And the
(07:05):
point I'm trying to make are that most of us,
most of the time, don't want violence. What group people
are going to most likely in getting bold in violence,
and I think that I'm going to leave that as
a rhetorical question for now and make the second point,
(07:30):
which which is that whatwithstanding that most people most of
the time don't want violence, but we have to recognize
two broad types of it because they often get conflated
or can confused. So we're called type one is unwanted violence,
(07:51):
random violence. Violence that happens there's a perpetrator. Sorry about
the careless terminology, but there'll be a perpetrator and a
victim or a target that the one was the un
and the inpetator does. That's one type of moormance means
(08:11):
too broad classification other type of violence which people get
very they confused the two because the second type I'm
raising here, it's the agreed combat, the due the competition
that we've raised this. I can't remember which podcast when
in one of our recent podcasts that's an agreed combat,
(08:34):
which which probably almost the worst, not in terms of
the risks alife, but it's it's the most useless environment
for the application of kata, which is why seldom see
the use of kata in competition, in character competitions or
(08:57):
inspiring or even inspiring or in turns. Which so I
think that foundation and the hope that Tom will hopefully
come in here and clarify. You know what what the kata?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
What about the argument that kata builds muscle memory, like
if I, if I practice it, practice a high block
thousands of times, it will kick in automatically when I'm attacked.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, yeah, I mean the simple answer to that is,
how does that type of muscle memory line up with
your innate reflexes and response to violence? So when you're
startled or you're suddenly attacked and your bodies are drenalized
and you go into a very very heightened state, how
(09:46):
how does the type of muscle memory marry up with
those that innate There's patterns of behavior and innate reflexes,
and you know, people that are startled and suddenly violently
or don't suddenly seem to be leaping into the perfect
moves from a kata, and the way that they're thought
(10:07):
is alongside this what Nathan just read the second type,
which is this dueling. So it's always one on one,
there's always a winner. You know, someone gets attacked and
then the other person is miraculously wins that altercation without
taking any punishment, without getting here, they could be it's
(10:29):
a very very controlled environment, and if kath were really
for violence and self defense, it would somehow have to
be able to come into fit into that chaos of
a fight. And it doesn't. So you know, a attacks
b and then there's a block and it's nonsense. It's
(10:50):
got nothing to do with a real fight. And again
I just direct people back to looking at I mean,
it's pretty it's horrific to watch, but when you see
some of the footage of real violence, and it's unbelievable
how fast it is, and particularly with stabbings, somebody can
be stabbed several times in a couple of seconds and
(11:13):
the other person has no idea it's even happened. It's
so fast. And none of that is reflected in what
a majority of the karate world is doing with kata.
It doesn't matter how fast or how efficiently you know,
you perform the bonkai if it's still the same old
(11:34):
it can't be scripted. It's got to fit into an
unscripted chaotic mess that is, you know, vicious. And so
what you don't see is two people are You don't
tend to see two people attacking one person at the
same time and then applying kata, and you know, that
(11:59):
kind of stuff, so it was just quickly a distant Sorry, Tom,
I don't want to spoil it.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Yeah, I remember, I remember Wat and Lung the Lake
WANs and Lung the late Great Wings, and he was
the cecre of of my old dear friend Nino Bernardo.
And I remember I remember from the same to me
on one occasion, I can only fight one person that
(12:27):
once because I've only got one pair of arms.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
But yeah, so if I mean the cata don't look
like a fight, an unarmed fight, we can, and we
can find lots of evidence for that. Choreographing or trying
to predict in a very controlled, safe way isn't going
to be particularly helpful in preparation for an altercation. So
(12:52):
does that is that what the katab really intended for?
I doubt it, and I think that on going in
a slightly different direction, that choreographed stage combat, which has
a lovely rich history in China, is greatly responsible for
(13:13):
people's views on what could be done in an unarmed fight.
So there are unbelievable performers and kung fu stylists and
martial artists in China and the rest of the world
who do these have inherited the opera style kung Fu
and the street peddler style come through this very performative
(13:37):
stage choreography which later became kung Fu movies, and who
you know, it's right there in front of you. And
I think it's I think it's kind of got mixed
up in people's views of what violence is really really about.
And so the stage combat and the stage forms which
(13:59):
are so believable, those views are carried over into the
antique kata, which I which are a different type of
form and nothing to do with stage combat. And that
I think that has you know, the movies now makes
it very believable that a fight could be an exchange
(14:20):
of blocks and parodies and counters and traps and sweeps
and throws and you get back up again, and he
could take a punch in the face and you get
back up again. The reality is after a couple of blows,
you know, quite quickly people get battered, which is what
they say. So I think that the history of martial
arts in China and stage combat and is responded partly
(14:43):
responsible for the crossover. And I mean I used to
believe in it myself. I used to believe in the
choreography of the you know, of the bonkai. You know
that if I was grabbed or someone did this, I
would respond in this way and stuff like that. But
the reality is is it just doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, I mean you just said so, you know, talking
about bonki. You know there are so many, so many
videos out there and for those that for those listeners,
aren't you know, familiar with the terminology buonki. It's it's
it's it's the application of the cata right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Technically means analysis. Yeah, more to do with analysis or
stretch that point. It's that has become interpretation. But so
it's common divine different schools with different applications in quotes
for the same caster. But the term is analysis and
(15:51):
that and that's allowed that has allowed coaches and teachers
to escape having any clarity, having any certainty is to
what the what these what these cataph for? They were
able to put the analysis m well, by the time
it got the USA, I became a creature of its own,
(16:19):
its own creation, can I Tom, I'd like to press you.
I'd like to return go back to what we did
in a previous podcast, because I think we need to
look at reactive and proactive. I think that's probably this
is like you to all come together, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Right, I mean it just popping back to Jeff Thompson
as well. One of the things that he said, after
having hundreds and hundreds of altercations on the door was
the only thing that consistently worked and could be relied
upon was to go first. And so he developed a
(17:03):
devastating pre emptive a right cross or something, but I
don't know exactly, but he could got so good at
reading the signs that something was going to happen that
he would just always go first. And that's and he
said that was the only thing that could be reliable.
Everything else became a kind of support. If you ended
(17:25):
up grappling on the ground, you were in big trouble.
You know, if you end up because other people would
you know, join in, or the possibility of weapons and
things like that. So it opens up a very very
you know, suddenly the risk factor goes through the roof
after that first couple of seconds if you haven't gone
(17:45):
first reactive. The fact is people get knocked out very
very quickly. There isn't time to react and perform a
block or anything like that. Most of the time. So
if your thoughtunate enough to still be standing after getting
punched in the face or assaulted, then you've got you.
You're fighting on the back foot anyway. So I don't
(18:11):
think any of the antique forms are reactive by the way,
as well, I think that the intention is that they
a that they're there for the use of wes for weaponry,
and be that it's all proactive. I don't there's no choreography,
and I don't think it's valuable to preserve any kind
of martial skills or the techniques in the form of choreography.
(18:36):
It's what you can do going first, depending on where
you are in relation to the person and those kind
of maps. That's about as far as you can go
with it.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Really more about the argument that kata provides confidence and
the discipline feeling strong.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I just think that that's bullshit. You know, weightfting gives
you know what, Why not go and lift weights? Getting
strong will give you confidence, you know. It's it's easy
to when you haven't got the original functions of the forms,
it's very very easy to sell it as anything, can't
you Kata is spiritual training, It's shugioh it's discipline, it's
(19:23):
you know, empowered. There's a load of old crap really,
because that's not what they're for.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Well, yeah, God, Nathan, Yeah, thank you, Tom. Thanks. But
we've got such a asked array of quite exotic looking
movements in fifty or fifty plus kata, unless if we
just looked at mainstream karate styles, I'll take take take three.
I think take modern Schottaken has twenty seven and growing
(19:54):
traditionally has twenty seven. During the time of its founder,
Funakosi j who missus get this right, died in nineteen
fifty seven, A Phnicosigichen published a book called Karati do Kiohan,
which was published the same year as my mother was born,
nineteen thirty six, and in that book he demonstrated fifteen kata,
(20:18):
and so certainly by that by the late seventies that
had grown to twenty seven. Maaggi Chojan sensei, the founder
of Gojuriu karate who died in nineteen fifty three, enumerated
allegedly were a bit of a story here there. There
(20:38):
are twelve kata normally in traditional Gojuru, which is one
of the main traditional karate styles, although historically Maagi Chojan
Sensei only taught three kata to each. He always taught
santin first, then he taught a second kata quite frequently.
After nineteen seven team he taught ten show, and then
(21:02):
he taught a different student a different third kata. I've
covered that topic in the Great Karate Myth, in which
I suggest one positive solution to that enigma. But the
important thing is that that's a lot of kata in
which to try and suggest, well, we've got to go first.
You know Jeff Thompson the self defintex but that we've
(21:22):
been discussing, I think he gave up kata as far
as I can remember, and just you know, relied on
I think Tom's right on on on a punch a
go first attack. So we can't say that that's exactly
how every kata is. So I think Tom's laid the
groundwork by suggesting that many of the kata are actually
(21:43):
about manipulating short weapons and in a preemptive way, and
when they're not and there's when if they're not weapons.
And we can give some examples, and we have done
within the codoru approach to karate, but do you want
to go through it? Tom also like carry on, you
(22:04):
carry on, go for it, thank you, okay. So the
function of the cata will invariably be pre empty, but
it will be one of controlling, shutting down the distance.
You can see if you get to see the clip.
I know Tom would want to do do it differently,
but we've all learned a lot since two thousand and
(22:26):
six in the semi demonstration at the National Exhibition Center
in Birmingham in England. But shutting down the distance with
the sigh stopping the swordsman from having free reign with
his swords, and the whole trick is to try and
prevent him from drawing the sword in the first place.
And the same will be true of the cata that
(22:48):
are not designed to be used for the weapons by
Hanching is one example where the object would be to
get a grip on the person before they can get going,
before they can start to causing problem, and getting a
climp on them and getting the first limb completely controlled.
In that sense we might be looking at We might
(23:08):
be talking here about something that looks a bit more
like jiu jitsu unlike judo. However, and I think this
is a truism, although many people out there will disagree
with me. The authentic use that word carefully. I used
the words Tom has used. I think the antique catter
(23:29):
don't display any ground fighting. There's no ground grappling, so
that tells you something. The control must already have taken place.
And as Tom was, no care there are no exchanges
as you find in a gunku movie. There's no choreography,
there are no backwards and forwards or points scoring as
(23:52):
you would get in batch box. It's the operator who
goes to subdue the his target, which gives you two
different roles, the arrestor and the arrestee. So that's the
person doing the arresting and the person being arrested. And
I think that's that's probably the most useful way of
(24:15):
looking at these catter, at their function. I'm back, thanks
for anything to come in there.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I think just when people consider the karate kta as
self defense, if they took a moment to what do
they mean by it? What are they considering as self defense?
You know, if they were to write down a list
of what are all the qualities of self defense? What
(24:43):
are all of what's the criteria, then try and make
up a catter from it, make up a self defense cutter.
Would it look anything like Chinto?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I doubt it.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Would it look anything like San su U? I doubt it.
They don't look at anything like it, because what's your
starting point going to be? Is it going to be
that someone clows apart, you know, all that kind of stuff,
and then you're going to have all the problems of
the reality of blocking a punch is very unlikely when
you consider what self defense is, or fighting is, or
(25:14):
anything like that, very very very quickly, you run headfirst
into some really really serious problems when it comes to
encoding that in a CATA. And so it suggests to
me that it's for something else. And as Nathan's described
that the pre emption and the context is preemptive, and
(25:39):
you know, and mostly for weapons. It's very it's a
world away from the kind of popularist view that karates
an unarmed you know, self defense art that's going to
if you practice the catter enough, you're somehow going to
and you do your bunk hydrills yourself, how going to
(26:00):
survivor an altercation with someone? Yeah, I think that's a
bit of a fantasy, really, So, yeah, is that is
just asking those questions a little bit more, what what
do you mean by self? What do you mean and
how would you go about encoding it? Thinking? Thinking about
that if even people that try and do it they
(26:22):
realized that what they produce is nothing like those antique forms.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
And I think we've disgusted it so many times in
the past. If you look at sports fighting or boxing,
you get the double cover and the crouch with the
shoulders of the jaw. They look nothing like the straight
backs and heads up the engine, kata and other catter.
It's all the different requirements but also all idea modern
(26:50):
and traditional and become bound together. That's where it's gone wrong.
And we can trace this back to the aforementioned of
Phunikosi sensei, the founder of shot. Although he didn't name
it Shota kan himself, Shotto was his pen name, and
his students are the ones that decided to call it
(27:12):
to name their whole or their group after using the
pen name of their teacher. But he wanted to make
karate though he was he was a very well educated
Confucian scholar and a school teacher, and he wanted to
create something that he termed karate door or do karate
(27:37):
the way of karate and and to do that, he
caught him the term I'm not sure whether he originated it,
but he suddenly perpetuated it, and that term is karate
n nashi, and which really crudely translated means there's no
first attack actually means initiative or going first, So it's
(27:59):
the What he created was a statement that was completely
at odds with the reality of going first, pinning down,
trapping and preventing, and made Canati do very much a
almost a passive reactive art. So the idea was you're
(28:21):
the good guy, the attack is the bad guy. It
needs an attacker two come at to you, and then you,
the good guy or good gal, would have would find
a suitable response. It's a I don't want to be
disrespective to the great founder, but there's and I'm not
(28:46):
at all being critical, but there's a little bit of
gentlemanly naivety. And in terms of not experiencing or seeing
the type of violence that Toom has described, I think
it's not for me to say what your experiences are, Tom,
but you are a very well rounded martial artists. So
(29:07):
whilst your history and knowledge is very in depth, you're
also very practically grounded that's probably the safest way to
put that. Plus we've you've got a much more rounded
experience and than you know, perhaps some of the old
masters had in the past who really didn't really involve
themselves in any in any fights. And when we do
(29:31):
get recorded history of so called tough guys and back
in the day, then the first one to spring to mind,
and the first one always raised is an individual called
multiple Choki, who was a contemporary prenocose jit who allegedly
had one hundred fist fights in the in the Red
Light district of Naha. I find that difficult to believe
(29:52):
that you could go through that many fights not suffer
any damage. He's broken noses, jaws, injury. You know, I
think that's a all story, and we never nobody, you know,
it's it's myth making, it's it's it's is legend. So
karate nisi nashi. There is no initiative, There is no
(30:14):
first attack or first hand in karate ergo. Therefore, karate
is a primarily a defensive art. Somebody attacks you and
you defend, which, as Tom's already made very clear, you
are already immediately at a disadvantage. And as Tom described
it on the back foot, you have to recover and
(30:36):
if that attack gains momentum, and for example, in what
in boxing, or in a compound attack, so that's not
one punch and stand still and aizuki stepping punch in
a nice, neat straight line which I'm not knocking because
it's it's a good way to train and gain the experience,
(30:56):
particularly to train young people that I can find lots
of reasons for, you know, the establishment of conventional quality,
even if much of it is away and distant, very
distant from the actual purpose of the kata. But a
compound attack once it's underway, particularly if being delivered by
someone who's experienced already, leaves you partially defeated. And the
(31:21):
and the trick of the kata. What's what's found there
is the art of stopping it. It's getting stopping that
weapon before it's even drawn. That's what we're really looking
at there. Riving usually to a corner, pinning, chapping, controlling,
controlling the second limb. Tom will be able to say
more about the kata such as kushan ku and chintone
(31:44):
pasai from the Shuri tradition, but our stick to is
just the nihanchin from the Sury tradition, which is definitely
about getting those limbs tied down and controlled. And the
same strategy is used in the in the original in
the way she centering, except that that control is occasioned
(32:04):
by the use of a pair of.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Sign I think what we're what we've been talking about
today is we're not talking about whether people can or
can't fight, just what it really what underpins is whether
the cats were originally intended for that purpose and where
in play over the timeline and history of it it
may have gone wrong. So we've kind of covered a
(32:29):
lot of different areas about where the perceptions after the
functions have been lost at these forms, what's happened to them,
where it's gone wrong, and self defense. Applying catter for
self defense it is an idea that sort of speaks
to where it's gone wrong, you know. And that's not
to you know, attack anybody in any individual or any
(32:52):
plody that teaches or practices that type of karate.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
But sorry, I just want one point point that Tom
was making the step and punch down block and middle
block the structured karate, which is the lifeblood of karate
clubs that in terms of traditional so called traditional karate.
We're not in any way denigating that it's fun, it
(33:18):
cultivates master's spirit, then children can do it. In fact,
it's you know, as long as the movements aren't exaggerated,
it's good for them. And also, and here's something that's
so so important. If it's done sensibly incorrectly, it's safe.
So you know, we're not knocking ordinary punch karati by
(33:41):
by any means. Thanks for reminding me of that.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Tom Well can't catter at least help with self defense,
like building basics.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I think in short, the alsers know when you say basics,
what do you mean basics for self defense? What is that?
You know, what does that look like? Because that what
the question you're asking, and that the way that you
framed it is makes sense to karate people because there
are basics in karate, and the belief is that those
(34:11):
basics are going to go to what be useful in
a fight or in self defense. But actually, when we
put karate aside for a moment and we talk about well,
what is what is self defense really? What does it
really encapture it again, we come back round again to
look in on YouTube at real fights and the real
(34:32):
altercations and what we find is looks nothing like karate,
And how on earth is Chinto going to find a
way into into that? So yeah, is it a good
starting point in preparation for self defense to practice? Is
so low for that you don't know what the meaning
of the moves are? No, I don't think it is.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
I been referred to as swimming on right, And.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think anyone can.
You don't have to go out and have hundreds of
fights anymore to find out the retruth of that. I
think you can just see just how violent things can
become very very very quickly by seeing some of the
footage and or you know, putting on some gloves and
(35:22):
and just if you want to get something that resembles it,
that is closer, do do a couple of rounds of
full contacts barring and just see see where your CATA
fits into that. Because if it doesn't fit into a
controlled environment like the ring, it's not going to fit
(35:43):
in anywhere in an uncontrolled environment when it comes to
unarmed fighted. So yeah, there's there's ways of looking at
you know, exploring it and thinking about it. But I
think people. I suppose what I would encourage people to
do is be have a bit more curiosity about it
about what people are saying catle for that's the you know,
(36:06):
that's the invitation in our group is to look a
bit closer at these cat phase. It really not saying
that we're right and we've got all the answers, but
we've got the questions at least.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah coming now, really we're talking about what we do
in our group in.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
You know, yeah, has.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
You know, going to talk about really where that is, Nathan.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I'm happy to do that. Well, we looked at this.
I keep this brief because otherwise it's not a whole
other subject.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
We looked at that.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
We were told that, tradition told us, the history books
told us, teachers told us, and I mean we've had
plenty of high, high caliber teachers. Santum is the beginning
and the ending of training. So we took that seriously.
So cod who was actually watched on Maggie Chodren's version
of San Jim without so much of the deep breathing
and hypertension, And we looked at applications. Now, I would
(37:03):
say I can't speak for anyone other than myself for me.
By the time Barefoot Zen was published in two thousand
and we had already taken the training in a more
holistic way. Now I don't mean that to sound wishy washy,
but we we'd found the character building, and we we
(37:26):
developed in a in a proper way through receiving proper
instruction from a real Buddhist monastery, from real monks and nouns,
where we realized the cultural nuance that led to the
creation of these characters. And what we understood was that
(37:48):
even though they are to ultimately functional ways of controlling
and dealing with violence, they are noble in their in
their structure where the the operator the arrests arrests arrest
doesn't set out to maim or or brutalize or kill
the other person. That's that's the stuff of fantasies, more
(38:10):
myths and legends. But they seek to restrain and control,
causing minimum harm and minimum damage. And we simply refine
that further through creating spontaneous applications, applications through contact and
contact reflexes done by instinct and by touch. Hence the
(38:35):
use of pushing hands. Again, not something we invented or created,
but some but something we were originally taught. I could
go on, but they are noble in character, and they
are not the sugury or brutality or ground grappling or
despite the unsavory images and publications of eye gouging and
(38:57):
so on, there is norging in no hands in Catah.
There's no eye gadgeing in Maggie sension. You know, there's
you know, that's that's that's completely absent. These are largely
noble pursuits, and we sought the nobility aspect of the
art and saw that as potentially the most useful and
(39:20):
productive development of that rather than having this sort of
outdated civil arresque procedure using pretty much obsolete weapons.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I need to clarify one of the points that you made, Nathan,
that we're talking about pushing hands. That was you developed
that system, the particular pushing hands that we do.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
That was your.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Invention, if you like, we haven't seen anyone else for
form pushing hands the same way.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
No, thank you for that, And I take that point
with some humility. I'm the one. Yes, I did structure it,
but it wasn't random an ad hoc, and it wasn't
flowy and spontaneous. What it was was a very specific
structure based on the human anatomy and its physiology, and
based on a gate system using two outsides and a center,
(40:15):
hence the passing of the forces through those gates. So
it was highly structured and based on the wrist, the elbow,
and the shoulder and how those joints operate on various tilts,
and the way that force could be profitably passed through
those gate structures, which would lead to possibilities for openings
(40:40):
and the spontaneous application of techniques from the kata, which
meant we could then avoid the need to choreograph or
to pre arrange, so there's no pre arranging or choreography
in our applications of the kata. They're all spontaneous. The
structure was cute with help from my colleagues.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I'll just add one thing to that. If I may
know from the the pushing hands that we practice has
nothing to do with self defense either, So just to
just to make sure we're not say it, and again
it's another it's another thing that may have become the
kind of ideas have become mixed up that pushing hands
in some way has some value towards preparing for a fight.
(41:23):
It doesn't. Yeah, I'll leave it.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
That's a perfect, perfect conclusion. Wonderful, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Okay, well I think that wraps it up. Kat has
not self defense.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Well I think so.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Well, that's all the time we have for today on
Great Karate Bits. For those karate enthusiasts out there, we
hope you enjoyed this episode. Remember, whether you're a seasoned
black belt or just starting your karate journey, there are.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
As for myths and misconceptions to be debunked.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
If you liked what you heard, be sure to like, subscribe,
or follow Great Karate Myths Debunking the Legends wherever you
get your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners,
so leave a comment below and let us know what
karate myths you'd like us to tackle next. And hey,
if you're interested in booking a seminar or finding a
local karate class, get in touch with us at www
(42:26):
dot cooderu dot com. Thanks for listening, train hard, stay curious,
and we'll see you next time on Break Karate Myths
Debunking the Legends
Welcome to Great KARATEI Myths Debunking the Legends, a podcast
that chops through the forest of martial arts folklore to
reveal the true.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Essence of karate.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Join us your hosts, Nier, Nathan and Tom as we
take you on a journey through the dojo of Doubt,
where we question the tall tales and test the traditions
that have shaped karati as we know it, from the
mystical to the misunderstood. We break down the myths and
can build up the facts. But don't worry, debunking doesn't
mean disrespecting the art. We'll be celebrating the rich history
(00:36):
of karate while setting the record straight. Whether you're caesared
black belt, a novice starting the karaiti bath, or just
a curious listener, beare to have your preconceptions shattered and
your understanding of karate deepened. So tie up your belts,
bow in, and let's get ready to rumble with truth.
(01:02):
Welcome to this week's episode of Great Karate Myth Debunking
the Legends, and today's topic is why kata are not
self defense?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Okay, Well.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
There's one hell of a loaded statement. Tom, Where are
we going with this?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Strap in.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Uh, Well, the idea of self defense is a bit ridiculous, really,
isn't it, Because really there's violence. You know, he's going
to be if there's going to be a fight, or
you're going to be assaulted. There's only Really self defense
is a bit of a fancy idea, isn't it that
you could somehow control violence in that way or contain
(01:50):
it into you know, something neat and tidy like you
might find in a kata. Violence is chaos, it's it's mucky,
it's messy, there's nothing organized about it. The idea that
you could defend yourself as well, if someone assaulted you
and you were lucky enough to be able to take
(02:13):
a punch or a hit or a surprise and fight back,
would that look anything like a kata? Would it be
anything like that? And coming in from a cata perspective,
what what in a kata is going to be useful
in a fight? An unarmed fight, an empty handed fight?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
What?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
So? Yeah, these are the two sort of leaping off points,
and you know, jump headfirst into either of those. I
think the kata is a good place to start. I mean,
when you think about the body of antique forms kusangkhu
chinto what what about those forms is anything to do
with being stabbed or randomly assorted by a group of
(02:59):
you know, a group of people or a pub fighter.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Have what we've been told, Sally exactly, the cat is
full of blocks and strikes, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I mean, yeah, I mean the great thing about YouTube
is is that there are hundreds thousands of videos of
CCTV footage, things recorded on phones of it's not pleasant
to watch, but people being assaulted and stabbed and what
(03:33):
you know, one of the big takeaways from that is
that it's so fast and it's so vicious. Where is
how's a block gonna come into play there? How's And
you know, this is the really old topic and was
really really well covered by sort of Jeff Thompson. And
(03:53):
you know, people in that community of that were really
he created pressure tetting them martial arts and you know
that that kind of what heat the work you did,
and Nathan had his own involvement in that kind of
thing as well.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah. I just wanted to clarify Jeff Jeff Thompson because
there are several that was the I think he's not active.
He was the English English self defenseech. But I think
he famously published a book called I Believe it was
Mind My Back and That's my back, thank you, based
(04:30):
on his experiences as a as a as a dormant
a night club England that we tend to call me, well,
we used to, not anymore, I do, Tom. We used
to call them bouncers and that's what this gentleman work
worked as and he rele practical experience in a book.
(04:54):
I don't want to steal as usual steel Tom Thunder
because of people need to hear what it has to say.
But I just wanted to put a couple of items
in place just too. There are many I could do,
but just to the first one is who's doing the fighting?
(05:16):
And we know that most of them, most on most occasions,
most people going about their business don't have a fight,
and at worst we we better offender and or have
an argument or disagreement. And only the psycho and like
(05:37):
minded I really want to engage in any kind of violence.
Actually most of us, most of the time do not,
although obviously many people have to watch their tempers so
to speak. If I extend extend that to what not
an expert in armed conflict, but taking a look at
the the Vietnam Or, which was terrible pr if not
(06:04):
the waste of many thousands. I think it was sixty
one thousand plus, don't quote me American lives. There were
issues with soldiers, young men sort of sort of conscripts,
who really didn't want to fire their guns at anybody,
and they just filed them vaguely. And I can't remember
(06:24):
the stats. I used to have them for some research,
but that was about fifteen years ago. But to cut
to the chase, vast majority of the small arms fire
was completely inful. It was just that they were just
empty their magazines and run out of them and then
fall back for some more quite tech shocking. Really. Now,
(06:45):
I'm not saying anything negative about the American military because
I think in world perception or the strongest military on
the face of the on the face of the earth.
So I'm not quite doing that or any of their bravery,
just the circumstances that they found themselves in. And the
(07:05):
point I'm trying to make are that most of us,
most of the time, don't want violence. What group people
are going to most likely in getting bold in violence,
and I think that I'm going to leave that as
a rhetorical question for now and make the second point,
(07:30):
which which is that whatwithstanding that most people most of
the time don't want violence, but we have to recognize
two broad types of it because they often get conflated
or can confused. So we're called type one is unwanted violence,
(07:51):
random violence. Violence that happens there's a perpetrator. Sorry about
the careless terminology, but there'll be a perpetrator and a
victim or a target that the one was the un
and the inpetator does. That's one type of moormance means
(08:11):
too broad classification other type of violence which people get
very they confused the two because the second type I'm
raising here, it's the agreed combat, the due the competition
that we've raised this. I can't remember which podcast when
in one of our recent podcasts that's an agreed combat,
(08:34):
which which probably almost the worst, not in terms of
the risks alife, but it's it's the most useless environment
for the application of kata, which is why seldom see
the use of kata in competition, in character competitions or
(08:57):
inspiring or even inspiring or in turns. Which so I
think that foundation and the hope that Tom will hopefully
come in here and clarify. You know what what the kata?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
What about the argument that kata builds muscle memory, like
if I, if I practice it, practice a high block
thousands of times, it will kick in automatically when I'm attacked.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, yeah, I mean the simple answer to that is,
how does that type of muscle memory line up with
your innate reflexes and response to violence? So when you're
startled or you're suddenly attacked and your bodies are drenalized
and you go into a very very heightened state, how
(09:46):
how does the type of muscle memory marry up with
those that innate There's patterns of behavior and innate reflexes,
and you know, people that are startled and suddenly violently
or don't suddenly seem to be leaping into the perfect
moves from a kata, and the way that they're thought
(10:07):
is alongside this what Nathan just read the second type,
which is this dueling. So it's always one on one,
there's always a winner. You know, someone gets attacked and
then the other person is miraculously wins that altercation without
taking any punishment, without getting here, they could be it's
(10:29):
a very very controlled environment, and if kath were really
for violence and self defense, it would somehow have to
be able to come into fit into that chaos of
a fight. And it doesn't. So you know, a attacks
b and then there's a block and it's nonsense. It's
(10:50):
got nothing to do with a real fight. And again
I just direct people back to looking at I mean,
it's pretty it's horrific to watch, but when you see
some of the footage of real violence, and it's unbelievable
how fast it is, and particularly with stabbings, somebody can
be stabbed several times in a couple of seconds and
(11:13):
the other person has no idea it's even happened. It's
so fast. And none of that is reflected in what
a majority of the karate world is doing with kata.
It doesn't matter how fast or how efficiently you know,
you perform the bonkai if it's still the same old
(11:34):
it can't be scripted. It's got to fit into an
unscripted chaotic mess that is, you know, vicious. And so
what you don't see is two people are You don't
tend to see two people attacking one person at the
same time and then applying kata, and you know, that
(11:59):
kind of stuff, so it was just quickly a distant Sorry, Tom,
I don't want to spoil it.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Yeah, I remember, I remember Wat and Lung the Lake
WANs and Lung the late Great Wings, and he was
the cecre of of my old dear friend Nino Bernardo.
And I remember I remember from the same to me
on one occasion, I can only fight one person that
(12:27):
once because I've only got one pair of arms.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
But yeah, so if I mean the cata don't look
like a fight, an unarmed fight, we can, and we
can find lots of evidence for that. Choreographing or trying
to predict in a very controlled, safe way isn't going
to be particularly helpful in preparation for an altercation. So
(12:52):
does that is that what the katab really intended for?
I doubt it, and I think that on going in
a slightly different direction, that choreographed stage combat, which has
a lovely rich history in China, is greatly responsible for
(13:13):
people's views on what could be done in an unarmed fight.
So there are unbelievable performers and kung fu stylists and
martial artists in China and the rest of the world
who do these have inherited the opera style kung Fu
and the street peddler style come through this very performative
(13:37):
stage choreography which later became kung Fu movies, and who
you know, it's right there in front of you. And
I think it's I think it's kind of got mixed
up in people's views of what violence is really really about.
And so the stage combat and the stage forms which
(13:59):
are so believable, those views are carried over into the
antique kata, which I which are a different type of
form and nothing to do with stage combat. And that
I think that has you know, the movies now makes
it very believable that a fight could be an exchange
(14:20):
of blocks and parodies and counters and traps and sweeps
and throws and you get back up again, and he
could take a punch in the face and you get
back up again. The reality is after a couple of blows,
you know, quite quickly people get battered, which is what
they say. So I think that the history of martial
arts in China and stage combat and is responded partly
(14:43):
responsible for the crossover. And I mean I used to
believe in it myself. I used to believe in the
choreography of the you know, of the bonkai. You know
that if I was grabbed or someone did this, I
would respond in this way and stuff like that. But
the reality is is it just doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, I mean you just said so, you know, talking
about bonki. You know there are so many, so many
videos out there and for those that for those listeners,
aren't you know, familiar with the terminology buonki. It's it's
it's it's the application of the cata right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Technically means analysis. Yeah, more to do with analysis or
stretch that point. It's that has become interpretation. But so
it's common divine different schools with different applications in quotes
for the same caster. But the term is analysis and
(15:51):
that and that's allowed that has allowed coaches and teachers
to escape having any clarity, having any certainty is to
what the what these what these cataph for? They were
able to put the analysis m well, by the time
it got the USA, I became a creature of its own,
(16:19):
its own creation, can I Tom, I'd like to press you.
I'd like to return go back to what we did
in a previous podcast, because I think we need to
look at reactive and proactive. I think that's probably this
is like you to all come together, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Right, I mean it just popping back to Jeff Thompson
as well. One of the things that he said, after
having hundreds and hundreds of altercations on the door was
the only thing that consistently worked and could be relied
upon was to go first. And so he developed a
(17:03):
devastating pre emptive a right cross or something, but I
don't know exactly, but he could got so good at
reading the signs that something was going to happen that
he would just always go first. And that's and he
said that was the only thing that could be reliable.
Everything else became a kind of support. If you ended
(17:25):
up grappling on the ground, you were in big trouble.
You know, if you end up because other people would
you know, join in, or the possibility of weapons and
things like that. So it opens up a very very
you know, suddenly the risk factor goes through the roof
after that first couple of seconds if you haven't gone
(17:45):
first reactive. The fact is people get knocked out very
very quickly. There isn't time to react and perform a
block or anything like that. Most of the time. So
if your thoughtunate enough to still be standing after getting
punched in the face or assaulted, then you've got you.
You're fighting on the back foot anyway. So I don't
(18:11):
think any of the antique forms are reactive by the way,
as well, I think that the intention is that they
a that they're there for the use of wes for weaponry,
and be that it's all proactive. I don't there's no choreography,
and I don't think it's valuable to preserve any kind
of martial skills or the techniques in the form of choreography.
(18:36):
It's what you can do going first, depending on where
you are in relation to the person and those kind
of maps. That's about as far as you can go
with it.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Really more about the argument that kata provides confidence and
the discipline feeling strong.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I just think that that's bullshit. You know, weightfting gives
you know what, Why not go and lift weights? Getting
strong will give you confidence, you know. It's it's easy
to when you haven't got the original functions of the forms,
it's very very easy to sell it as anything, can't
you Kata is spiritual training, It's shugioh it's discipline, it's
(19:23):
you know, empowered. There's a load of old crap really,
because that's not what they're for.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Well, yeah, God, Nathan, Yeah, thank you, Tom. Thanks. But
we've got such a asked array of quite exotic looking
movements in fifty or fifty plus kata, unless if we
just looked at mainstream karate styles, I'll take take take three.
I think take modern Schottaken has twenty seven and growing
(19:54):
traditionally has twenty seven. During the time of its founder,
Funakosi j who missus get this right, died in nineteen
fifty seven, A Phnicosigichen published a book called Karati do Kiohan,
which was published the same year as my mother was born,
nineteen thirty six, and in that book he demonstrated fifteen kata,
(20:18):
and so certainly by that by the late seventies that
had grown to twenty seven. Maaggi Chojan sensei, the founder
of Gojuriu karate who died in nineteen fifty three, enumerated
allegedly were a bit of a story here there. There
(20:38):
are twelve kata normally in traditional Gojuru, which is one
of the main traditional karate styles, although historically Maagi Chojan
Sensei only taught three kata to each. He always taught
santin first, then he taught a second kata quite frequently.
After nineteen seven team he taught ten show, and then
(21:02):
he taught a different student a different third kata. I've
covered that topic in the Great Karate Myth, in which
I suggest one positive solution to that enigma. But the
important thing is that that's a lot of kata in
which to try and suggest, well, we've got to go first.
You know Jeff Thompson the self defintex but that we've
(21:22):
been discussing, I think he gave up kata as far
as I can remember, and just you know, relied on
I think Tom's right on on on a punch a
go first attack. So we can't say that that's exactly
how every kata is. So I think Tom's laid the
groundwork by suggesting that many of the kata are actually
(21:43):
about manipulating short weapons and in a preemptive way, and
when they're not and there's when if they're not weapons.
And we can give some examples, and we have done
within the codoru approach to karate, but do you want
to go through it? Tom also like carry on, you
(22:04):
carry on, go for it, thank you, okay. So the
function of the cata will invariably be pre empty, but
it will be one of controlling, shutting down the distance.
You can see if you get to see the clip.
I know Tom would want to do do it differently,
but we've all learned a lot since two thousand and
(22:26):
six in the semi demonstration at the National Exhibition Center
in Birmingham in England. But shutting down the distance with
the sigh stopping the swordsman from having free reign with
his swords, and the whole trick is to try and
prevent him from drawing the sword in the first place.
And the same will be true of the cata that
(22:48):
are not designed to be used for the weapons by
Hanching is one example where the object would be to
get a grip on the person before they can get going,
before they can start to causing problem, and getting a
climp on them and getting the first limb completely controlled.
In that sense we might be looking at We might
(23:08):
be talking here about something that looks a bit more
like jiu jitsu unlike judo. However, and I think this
is a truism, although many people out there will disagree
with me. The authentic use that word carefully. I used
the words Tom has used. I think the antique catter
(23:29):
don't display any ground fighting. There's no ground grappling, so
that tells you something. The control must already have taken place.
And as Tom was, no care there are no exchanges
as you find in a gunku movie. There's no choreography,
there are no backwards and forwards or points scoring as
(23:52):
you would get in batch box. It's the operator who
goes to subdue the his target, which gives you two
different roles, the arrestor and the arrestee. So that's the
person doing the arresting and the person being arrested. And
I think that's that's probably the most useful way of
(24:15):
looking at these catter, at their function. I'm back, thanks
for anything to come in there.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I think just when people consider the karate kta as
self defense, if they took a moment to what do
they mean by it? What are they considering as self defense?
You know, if they were to write down a list
of what are all the qualities of self defense? What
(24:43):
are all of what's the criteria, then try and make
up a catter from it, make up a self defense cutter.
Would it look anything like Chinto?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I doubt it.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Would it look anything like San su U? I doubt it.
They don't look at anything like it, because what's your
starting point going to be? Is it going to be
that someone clows apart, you know, all that kind of stuff,
and then you're going to have all the problems of
the reality of blocking a punch is very unlikely when
you consider what self defense is, or fighting is, or
(25:14):
anything like that, very very very quickly, you run headfirst
into some really really serious problems when it comes to
encoding that in a CATA. And so it suggests to
me that it's for something else. And as Nathan's described
that the pre emption and the context is preemptive, and
(25:39):
you know, and mostly for weapons. It's very it's a
world away from the kind of popularist view that karates
an unarmed you know, self defense art that's going to
if you practice the catter enough, you're somehow going to
and you do your bunk hydrills yourself, how going to
(26:00):
survivor an altercation with someone? Yeah, I think that's a
bit of a fantasy, really, So, yeah, is that is
just asking those questions a little bit more, what what
do you mean by self? What do you mean and
how would you go about encoding it? Thinking? Thinking about
that if even people that try and do it they
(26:22):
realized that what they produce is nothing like those antique forms.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
And I think we've disgusted it so many times in
the past. If you look at sports fighting or boxing,
you get the double cover and the crouch with the
shoulders of the jaw. They look nothing like the straight
backs and heads up the engine, kata and other catter.
It's all the different requirements but also all idea modern
(26:50):
and traditional and become bound together. That's where it's gone wrong.
And we can trace this back to the aforementioned of
Phunikosi sensei, the founder of shot. Although he didn't name
it Shota kan himself, Shotto was his pen name, and
his students are the ones that decided to call it
(27:12):
to name their whole or their group after using the
pen name of their teacher. But he wanted to make
karate though he was he was a very well educated
Confucian scholar and a school teacher, and he wanted to
create something that he termed karate door or do karate
(27:37):
the way of karate and and to do that, he
caught him the term I'm not sure whether he originated it,
but he suddenly perpetuated it, and that term is karate
n nashi, and which really crudely translated means there's no
first attack actually means initiative or going first, So it's
(27:59):
the What he created was a statement that was completely
at odds with the reality of going first, pinning down,
trapping and preventing, and made Canati do very much a
almost a passive reactive art. So the idea was you're
(28:21):
the good guy, the attack is the bad guy. It
needs an attacker two come at to you, and then you,
the good guy or good gal, would have would find
a suitable response. It's a I don't want to be
disrespective to the great founder, but there's and I'm not
(28:46):
at all being critical, but there's a little bit of
gentlemanly naivety. And in terms of not experiencing or seeing
the type of violence that Toom has described, I think
it's not for me to say what your experiences are, Tom,
but you are a very well rounded martial artists. So
(29:07):
whilst your history and knowledge is very in depth, you're
also very practically grounded that's probably the safest way to
put that. Plus we've you've got a much more rounded
experience and than you know, perhaps some of the old
masters had in the past who really didn't really involve
themselves in any in any fights. And when we do
(29:31):
get recorded history of so called tough guys and back
in the day, then the first one to spring to mind,
and the first one always raised is an individual called
multiple Choki, who was a contemporary prenocose jit who allegedly
had one hundred fist fights in the in the Red
Light district of Naha. I find that difficult to believe
(29:52):
that you could go through that many fights not suffer
any damage. He's broken noses, jaws, injury. You know, I
think that's a all story, and we never nobody, you know,
it's it's myth making, it's it's it's is legend. So
karate nisi nashi. There is no initiative, There is no
(30:14):
first attack or first hand in karate ergo. Therefore, karate
is a primarily a defensive art. Somebody attacks you and
you defend, which, as Tom's already made very clear, you
are already immediately at a disadvantage. And as Tom described
it on the back foot, you have to recover and
(30:36):
if that attack gains momentum, and for example, in what
in boxing, or in a compound attack, so that's not
one punch and stand still and aizuki stepping punch in
a nice, neat straight line which I'm not knocking because
it's it's a good way to train and gain the experience,
(30:56):
particularly to train young people that I can find lots
of reasons for, you know, the establishment of conventional quality,
even if much of it is away and distant, very
distant from the actual purpose of the kata. But a
compound attack once it's underway, particularly if being delivered by
someone who's experienced already, leaves you partially defeated. And the
(31:21):
and the trick of the kata. What's what's found there
is the art of stopping it. It's getting stopping that
weapon before it's even drawn. That's what we're really looking
at there. Riving usually to a corner, pinning, chapping, controlling,
controlling the second limb. Tom will be able to say
more about the kata such as kushan ku and chintone
(31:44):
pasai from the Shuri tradition, but our stick to is
just the nihanchin from the Sury tradition, which is definitely
about getting those limbs tied down and controlled. And the
same strategy is used in the in the original in
the way she centering, except that that control is occasioned
(32:04):
by the use of a pair of.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Sign I think what we're what we've been talking about
today is we're not talking about whether people can or
can't fight, just what it really what underpins is whether
the cats were originally intended for that purpose and where
in play over the timeline and history of it it
may have gone wrong. So we've kind of covered a
(32:29):
lot of different areas about where the perceptions after the
functions have been lost at these forms, what's happened to them,
where it's gone wrong, and self defense. Applying catter for
self defense it is an idea that sort of speaks
to where it's gone wrong, you know. And that's not
to you know, attack anybody in any individual or any
(32:52):
plody that teaches or practices that type of karate.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
But sorry, I just want one point point that Tom
was making the step and punch down block and middle
block the structured karate, which is the lifeblood of karate
clubs that in terms of traditional so called traditional karate.
We're not in any way denigating that it's fun, it
(33:18):
cultivates master's spirit, then children can do it. In fact,
it's you know, as long as the movements aren't exaggerated,
it's good for them. And also, and here's something that's
so so important. If it's done sensibly incorrectly, it's safe.
So you know, we're not knocking ordinary punch karati by
(33:41):
by any means. Thanks for reminding me of that.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Tom Well can't catter at least help with self defense,
like building basics.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I think in short, the alsers know when you say basics,
what do you mean basics for self defense? What is that?
You know, what does that look like? Because that what
the question you're asking, and that the way that you
framed it is makes sense to karate people because there
are basics in karate, and the belief is that those
(34:11):
basics are going to go to what be useful in
a fight or in self defense. But actually, when we
put karate aside for a moment and we talk about well,
what is what is self defense really? What does it
really encapture it again, we come back round again to
look in on YouTube at real fights and the real
(34:32):
altercations and what we find is looks nothing like karate,
And how on earth is Chinto going to find a
way into into that? So yeah, is it a good
starting point in preparation for self defense to practice? Is
so low for that you don't know what the meaning
of the moves are? No, I don't think it is.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
I been referred to as swimming on right, And.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think anyone can.
You don't have to go out and have hundreds of
fights anymore to find out the retruth of that. I
think you can just see just how violent things can
become very very very quickly by seeing some of the
footage and or you know, putting on some gloves and
(35:22):
and just if you want to get something that resembles it,
that is closer, do do a couple of rounds of
full contacts barring and just see see where your CATA
fits into that. Because if it doesn't fit into a
controlled environment like the ring, it's not going to fit
(35:43):
in anywhere in an uncontrolled environment when it comes to
unarmed fighted. So yeah, there's there's ways of looking at
you know, exploring it and thinking about it. But I
think people. I suppose what I would encourage people to
do is be have a bit more curiosity about it
about what people are saying catle for that's the you know,
(36:06):
that's the invitation in our group is to look a
bit closer at these cat phase. It really not saying
that we're right and we've got all the answers, but
we've got the questions at least.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah coming now, really we're talking about what we do
in our group in.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
You know, yeah, has.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
You know, going to talk about really where that is, Nathan.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I'm happy to do that. Well, we looked at this.
I keep this brief because otherwise it's not a whole
other subject.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
We looked at that.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
We were told that, tradition told us, the history books
told us, teachers told us, and I mean we've had
plenty of high, high caliber teachers. Santum is the beginning
and the ending of training. So we took that seriously.
So cod who was actually watched on Maggie Chodren's version
of San Jim without so much of the deep breathing
and hypertension, And we looked at applications. Now, I would
(37:03):
say I can't speak for anyone other than myself for me.
By the time Barefoot Zen was published in two thousand
and we had already taken the training in a more
holistic way. Now I don't mean that to sound wishy washy,
but we we'd found the character building, and we we
(37:26):
developed in a in a proper way through receiving proper
instruction from a real Buddhist monastery, from real monks and nouns,
where we realized the cultural nuance that led to the
creation of these characters. And what we understood was that
(37:48):
even though they are to ultimately functional ways of controlling
and dealing with violence, they are noble in their in
their structure where the the operator the arrests arrests arrest
doesn't set out to maim or or brutalize or kill
the other person. That's that's the stuff of fantasies, more
(38:10):
myths and legends. But they seek to restrain and control,
causing minimum harm and minimum damage. And we simply refine
that further through creating spontaneous applications, applications through contact and
contact reflexes done by instinct and by touch. Hence the
(38:35):
use of pushing hands. Again, not something we invented or created,
but some but something we were originally taught. I could
go on, but they are noble in character, and they
are not the sugury or brutality or ground grappling or
despite the unsavory images and publications of eye gouging and
(38:57):
so on, there is norging in no hands in Catah.
There's no eye gadgeing in Maggie sension. You know, there's
you know, that's that's that's completely absent. These are largely
noble pursuits, and we sought the nobility aspect of the
art and saw that as potentially the most useful and
(39:20):
productive development of that rather than having this sort of
outdated civil arresque procedure using pretty much obsolete weapons.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I need to clarify one of the points that you made, Nathan,
that we're talking about pushing hands. That was you developed
that system, the particular pushing hands that we do.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
That was your.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Invention, if you like, we haven't seen anyone else for
form pushing hands the same way.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
No, thank you for that, And I take that point
with some humility. I'm the one. Yes, I did structure it,
but it wasn't random an ad hoc, and it wasn't
flowy and spontaneous. What it was was a very specific
structure based on the human anatomy and its physiology, and
based on a gate system using two outsides and a center,
(40:15):
hence the passing of the forces through those gates. So
it was highly structured and based on the wrist, the elbow,
and the shoulder and how those joints operate on various tilts,
and the way that force could be profitably passed through
those gate structures, which would lead to possibilities for openings
(40:40):
and the spontaneous application of techniques from the kata, which
meant we could then avoid the need to choreograph or
to pre arrange, so there's no pre arranging or choreography
in our applications of the kata. They're all spontaneous. The
structure was cute with help from my colleagues.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I'll just add one thing to that. If I may
know from the the pushing hands that we practice has
nothing to do with self defense either, So just to
just to make sure we're not say it, and again
it's another it's another thing that may have become the
kind of ideas have become mixed up that pushing hands
in some way has some value towards preparing for a fight.
(41:23):
It doesn't. Yeah, I'll leave it.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
That's a perfect, perfect conclusion. Wonderful, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Okay, well I think that wraps it up. Kat has
not self defense.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Well I think so.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Well, that's all the time we have for today on
Great Karate Bits. For those karate enthusiasts out there, we
hope you enjoyed this episode. Remember, whether you're a seasoned
black belt or just starting your karate journey, there are.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
As for myths and misconceptions to be debunked.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
If you liked what you heard, be sure to like, subscribe,
or follow Great Karate Myths Debunking the Legends wherever you
get your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners,
so leave a comment below and let us know what
karate myths you'd like us to tackle next. And hey,
if you're interested in booking a seminar or finding a
local karate class, get in touch with us at www
(42:26):
dot cooderu dot com. Thanks for listening, train hard, stay curious,
and we'll see you next time on Break Karate Myths
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