Exploration of Cryptids and Mythological Creatures in Religious Texts w/ Seth Vandebrooke

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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Speaker 2 (00:44):
Catlin Hat, stripe down the phone, protect this land, oh
all father, see voice guide our souls to the sacred rhythm.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Queen of the home.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
It great to make us hole.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
S just when your fire might guide us through the
dark and night.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
How the mistress of life Fanta, show us the path
with every breath, pray up, got us in love and.

Speaker 4 (01:17):
What we honor you know and forever more.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Than whos to lisus we call the rooms, we see
show goals uscles, ride out, jus we say, die out,
flight away locals, haga last. Now please we see our
spirits rise on the winds or spring.

Speaker 4 (01:42):
Gay sam Gema. For we trust the boots the last.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
We must welcome and welcome all. Welcome back to the
Gray Arm Pagans Podcast. Thank you for joining us on
another what will surely be amazing episodes. Before we really
get into the episode, first of all, thank you all
so much for finally getting me to one k one

(02:07):
k subscribers. It has been a journey. It has been
a long time coming. It was the like the last
last dozen or so just took forever, but you know,
finally made it. So yeah, you know, let's let's continue
on with the you know, the amazing guests and the
interesting topics. So with me today, I have Seth Vanderbrook.

(02:34):
Your last name really sounding Dutch by the.

Speaker 4 (02:37):
Way, Yeah, it throws people off. Yeah, it's because my
name is actually made up in the sense that a
long time ago, great great great whatever grandfather originally it
was actually just Brooks. It was an English name, but
he was adopted when his parents died. A bunch of
kids they get adopted and they ended up combining what

(03:00):
was a Dutch name with a not Dutch name, and
then it became whatever this is, which is van de Brook,
because if it would make more sense if it was
van Derbrook, which is what everyone says, but it's not
what it is. It's Van der Brook, Yeah, it gets everybody.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah, and then Brooke with a you know, with the
E at the end to make it extra confusing. So okay,
and today we will be covering something that I didn't
even really know was was a thing. And I but
you know, many many Pagans, many Heathens with me, namely

(03:42):
cryptids and other mythological creatures in the Bible or you know,
just in the in the Christian faith. I mean, most
of us know about you know, the the Leviathan or
the the Behemoth. You know, we we know about the
great beasts of course, just like especially the levithe and

(04:07):
we have a similar being in uh in Norse mythology.
Of course you're mc gander at the world snake and
you know in great mythology that will be the Uroboros.
Other than that, I didn't know that the Bible mentions

(04:28):
you know, others even and that's that's why I why
invite it invited Seth. So thank you very much for
for coming on, and for those who may not be
familiar with you or your work just yet, I'll introduce yourself.
What do you do, what are you about? What's your secrets?

Speaker 4 (04:45):
Mm hmm. Yeah, So, as you said, my name is
Seth Vannerbrook. I have a blog called Project Eliezar dot
com where I address a lot of enigmas in the
Bible and in history, and I love looking at old texts.
That's kind of the thing that I do. My full
time job is actually working for my church answering Bible questions.

(05:08):
We get questions from all around the world, and so
I get to answer those questions about what does the
Bible say about this? Was the Bible say about that?
What does it mean when it says this? You know,
what is your pastor think about that thing or this
thing or whatever. So lots of questions and I get
to do that full time, which is amazing. And then
in my part time is when I'm doing a lot
of research, reading a lot of old, dusty books. I

(05:29):
like to say my research has really been a blast.
It's led down some crazy, crazy rabbit trails, not just
with topics, but even with people that I've met. I've
been doing a lot of travel over the last few
years and meeting a lot of interesting people, hearing a
lot of stories, visiting a lot of museums, and working
with the Library of Congress here in the US who

(05:50):
have helped me a lot with a lot of the research.
So some of the cooler stuff has included working with
translators to translate texts that haven't been translated into English
yet to get some answers to a few questions I've
had about cryptids, especially with with dog Man specifically. So, yeah,
I'm excited to come on today and talk about things

(06:10):
that I think a lot of Pagans and Christians don't
even know the Bible is talking about, and how there
are some actually very strong similarities between the things that
we believe.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah. Wow, answering questions like about the Bible and such
like that. That that'll keep you busy, I'm sure. And
you you mentioned it briefly, and I say, you know,
that's perhaps a good starting point. You know, the the
dog Man or or a dog had a saint. I

(06:46):
have seen it before. I have probably you know, read
about read about him before. In uh we're seeing like
some speak or is he channel will talk about it. Uh,
you know they they eat that stuff up, of course,

(07:07):
But I mean other than other than that that, you know,
I know it exists and supposedly it's a saint with
well literally a dog's heads and otherwise a well really
a human body. I don't know much about it. So

(07:27):
you know, help us help me out here?

Speaker 4 (07:30):
Who who?

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Who is the dog head of saying? What?

Speaker 4 (07:33):
What is he?

Speaker 1 (07:33):
What does he have of a dog's head? Like, isn't
a dog?

Speaker 5 (07:36):
Is?

Speaker 2 (07:37):
What is it?

Speaker 4 (07:38):
Yeah? So it comes from a long standing tradition. It's
actually very old Coptic story. But this, there's this is
one of those This is one of those stories where
there are a million versions of it and it's almost
impossible to know where exactly it comes from. There are
a lot of writings about this, and a lot of

(07:58):
scholars have done all these comparisons between all these texts
and all these writings, and because it's an old story,
but it goes the oldest one that I know of
is essentially describing this Saint Christopher specifically, because this concept
is a lot older, a lot older, but for this

(08:18):
specific Saint Christopher, he he's the more famous one that
people know about. And the story goes essentially that there's
this dogheaded man Christopher and he was a Canaanite, which
means that he was in that Mesopotamian region, right, and
he was searching for basically the strongest god and so

(08:44):
he's serving this one and then he's serving that one,
and then he finds his way to the devil and
he's like, ah, like this this guy's at the top.
He's the most powerful. And then someone came along and
had I forget actually exactly what happens, but there's this
encounter someone uses the name of Jesus and he's like, oh,
the name of Jesus was stronger than even this guy. Well,

(09:06):
then he must be the strongest. And so then he
goes to follow Jesus. And then when he does, he
gets converted again a lot of different variations to all
these little details. But then he like gets baptized by rain,
or he gets baptized by the Jordan river, it depends.
He ends up helping and carrying this this child wants

(09:27):
to get across the river. So, because he's also very big,
he was like a giant, he carries this child across
the river, and then this weird thing happens where he's like, oh,
the baby's like I'm Jesus. It's a weird story, and
I don't even I don't think that it's true, but
this is the story, right, And so the idea is

(09:49):
that you know, one way or another, whatever the version is,
he ends up getting converted to Catholicism, and he ends
up becoming this saint when he starts preaching the word
to two gentiles and even to other dog headed people.
Some versions say that then he's blessed with the ability

(10:11):
to speak, because otherwise he wasn't able to communicate with humanity,
but that then he was able to speak human languages.
So yeah, that bunch of variations, a bunch of different
versions of that. But that's kind of the older paraphrase
of that story. Wow, okay, so really weird.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Geez, let's let's let's unpack that. Like it's like, oh,
by the way, he was also a giant. Yeah, okay,
sure that he Yeah, sure, why not? You know, dog
had a giant and later on the saints. Sure, anything's possible.
Why not. Then the child that he helped across the

(10:52):
river or carried across the river was like it, oh,
by the way, I'm Jesus that came out of nowhere.

Speaker 4 (11:00):
Yeah yeah, there's so many go ahead.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, and and other dog headed people, like he preached
to other dog headed people, so that was there was
a whole bunch of them, like a whole, like, was
it a separate species? Is it like a separate separate
I don't know's it kind of sounds sounds kind of

(11:24):
like an abomination or something or what you know. God
would say he's an abomination, but then he says that, oh,
you know, you're a saying now it's.

Speaker 4 (11:33):
It's a lot. There's a lot. And the reason why
it's a lot, right, is because this is something that's
taken out of kind of the center of a very
wow not just one, but many different histories right so
on on the the Christian side, So if for those
who understand the Bible, well, the fact that he was

(11:53):
a giant and that he was a Canaanite would have
made a lot of sense because it's the Canaanite tribes
and the Bible that were described as being giants, right,
so that would actually track the idea of him being
doged is actually not a or re least for a
long time. Wasn't a normal Christian idea That would have
been a little bit more like whoa, this is crazy.

(12:15):
And I think they used that for some pretty intense
symbolism that look at how like God can redeem even
the monstrous, right that all are welcome into the Kingdom
of Heaven, not just someone who's you know, good looking
or looks like a normal human. But the idea is
that it was going into the far reaches, which is
very interesting because if this you know, creature was real

(12:38):
and it was a giant with a dog head, then
it likely would have been a descendant of the Nephelm,
of which they were not, at least in the Old
Testament liked very much by God because they were an abomination,
and so he was having them like hunted down and
destroyed many cases, just doing it himself. But you know,

(12:59):
coming into the the New Testament where now Christ has
grace and all this stuff. It actually became a very
popular topic in the early Church and just up until
the sixteen seventeenth century that Christians were debating, hey, do
we witness to these people? Do they we welcome them
into into the church? Should they get saved? And that

(13:23):
assumes that they exist, right, And so we have all
these writings where people are saying in personal letters like
that they're even like for an example of a personal
letter would be the epistol of de Signocephalus, which was
a letter about the dog headed people by Ratromness of Corby,
who then wrote a letter to his friend Rimbert, who

(13:46):
was actually a missionary in Scandinavia, and Rimbert was saying, Hey,
I'm encountering these dog headed people. Should I be witnessing
to them or not? Am I? Should I be welcomed
into the King? Can they be saved at all? Do
they have souls that can be saved? Because for hundreds
of years a Catholic church had a tradition that said, hey,
these guys exist, but they're not fully human, so that

(14:10):
means that they can't be saved. So that was this
religious debate back and forth. Are they human? Do they
have souls? Can they be saved? For a long time.
In fact, Saint Augustine, which is a pretty famous leader
in the Catholic Church, he in his book City of God,
book sixteen, chapter eight, he has a whole chapter dedicated

(14:31):
to multiple monstrous races, including the dark headed people, but
not limited to that was just one of them. It
was including giants. Who's talking about the people with their
faces and their chests? Who's talking about dwarves? Talking about
all these different creatures. There just lists a few of
them out, not all of them, but some of them,
and he's like, hey, a lot of talk about this

(14:53):
in the church, whether or not these people can be saved,
and whether or not these people are there are full
races of them. And he essentially says, look, I don't
know what's going on. I've never seen any of them,
but if there are, if we know some of them
exist in minority, like a birth here or a birth
there of this monster's people, He's like, why can't there

(15:14):
be full races? So he kind of leaves it open
ended and like he's not dogmatic about it, but he says, hey,
something could be a dogmatic about it, but he just
acknowledges that it's a possibility. But there are many others
throughout church history who are saying not only that they

(15:36):
might exist, but Ratchromness. At the end of his letter
to Rimbert, he's like fully conclusive. He's like, look everybody
before me, and we're talking about somebody who was very conservative,
who argued everything that Augustine argued. Right, he was known
for being like very gung ho about everything that Augustin said.
He ended up contradicting everybody before him in the Catholic
Church and said, no, these are definitely human they definitely

(15:59):
have souls and they can definitely be saved, which was
this radical thing for him to say at the time,
especially to his friend in the Carolinian period, because this
was ninth century AD, so pretty wild. But there's a
long history of this going all the way back to
you know, fourth century, third century BC, where we have

(16:19):
people like Herotitus and Tisius who said that there were
not there were some in Libya, but there's a lot
in India. Tij just specifically saying there were hundreds of
thousands of them, that there are full kingdoms, and that
kings traded with them in India, and they had weapons
and they were like these mighty warriors. Some traitions say
that they were, that they were giant as well. The

(16:41):
palace in Nineveh that was discovered it's still in Britain
right now, but there's this plaque that shows these dog
headed people actually being hired on as assassins for the
king of Nineva. So there's this wealth of history that discusses,
like I'm drowning in documents that talk about this race
of these these dog headed creatures that if you go

(17:03):
far back enough, we have literally Akadian Cuneiform texts they're
Hittite texts that go back to like seventeen hundred BC,
which again are Canaanite and will align with the biblical
tradition that that these creatures would have been descended from
the Nephiline, which is a good a good segue. But

(17:26):
I know I just dumped a whole bunch of information.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
So so yeah, wow, okay, so Canaanite kind of makes sense,
you know, Canine, It's yeah, sure, if there is a connection,
it just you know, sounds sounds like it. Have you know,

(17:48):
the same same route work. Perhaps India a Libya like
my mind especially uh you know, India goes to like
all the all the Hindu God that are you know,
like you have to Hindu God. I don't know their names.
I'm very very bad with my my Eastern gods. I

(18:11):
have people for that. But if you have the you
have the monkey god, you know, God who looks like
like an elephant, like you have so many, so many
more of those. My my wife is crazy about the
but the Egyptian pantheon, you know, like the dog headed
it's of course you have oh even to others. Okay, uh,

(18:40):
that's that's my my wife's thing, I don't know much
about that. I'm mainly you're focused. Uh and like you
have you know, cats, alligators like just or no crocodiles
that will be crocodiles part of me. So you have
them as well as gods or you know, divine beings

(19:05):
in other parts of the world. But they were entire kingdoms,
like there were entire kingdoms of them. And you you
also mentioned like the I've seen those before, heard about
those before, like them, Yeah, what is it people who

(19:27):
have their face like on their on their torso or
ye have one like one giant lag that they they
hop around. Yeah yeah, oh you you know you actually
of course you know the names. Uh so, but they're
all mentioned and written down as legit as they you know,

(19:52):
they actually exist and we have seen them and we have,
you know, first hand accounts of them. Because that's that's
one thing that has bothered me for so long and
it still kind of bothers me. It's like, oh, you
know those ancients with their rich imagination just making up things,
and it's like no, no, it's it's like there are

(20:16):
stories of people who have met them. There are stories
who have you know, like you said, you know the
the other Indian kings, like they have an active trade
with them, hired them on as as mercenaries. Why would
you make something like that up? But like, so there's
a full list of of these these beings told to

(20:39):
or actually exist, even though Augustine said, hey, like I
don't know for sure, but like everyone around me is that,
you know, either they've seen them or they've heard about
you know, they heard from people that have seen them.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
So wow, it's a lot, it is a lot. So
so yeah, so let's take a step back, right, So
we have all these different monstrous races, right that throughout
history a lot of people are describing, and there are

(21:15):
various lists, right, and there are certain you know, of
course there's always a pattern where maybe there's five to
ten different races that pretty much everybody is mentioning. And
then of course they're all the variations, so you might
have the core ones and then there are like other
kind of stragglers on the end, or depending on where
you are, they are or not included. Right, And that tradition,

(21:38):
that idea of these monstrous races has really just always
been there, like the oldest writings that we have mentioned
these races, right, whether Greek or Chinese or anywhere. Everybody
seems to have a tradition about this. And that's one
of the things that is pretty convincing about it, is
that everyone new for thousands of years in different cultures

(22:01):
and different languages across time. Like, Okay, if it's a prank,
that's an insanely impressive one, right, Like, there's no way
you that everybody makes that up and and keeps that
prank going for thousands of years across the world without communication. Right,
So something's there. It's it's pretty hard for you to
say that nothing's there. Of course, I say it's hard,

(22:22):
and yet most of the modern world still says it.
You know, it's it's it's made up, like you said, and.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, that's that can be, And that's exactly what you said.
Like so many different you know, people, so many different races,
so many different empires, kingdoms, chiefdoms over the thousands of
years have their stories about them. It's I'd be very

(22:50):
hard pressed to think that, oh, you know, it's all
just imaginations. Oh god, oh that is I think that's
that that would be even worse. Oh no, you know,
it's all it's all a metaphor for for something else,
you know, as as you as you mentioned with the

(23:12):
with the dog headed Saint, it's like, you know, it's
a metaphor for something else, or you know, he's written
about a metaphors. I'm sure you can you know, attach
a metaphor onto it, you know, or kind of you know,
a lesson that I don't know, Like like we mentioned before,
we went life kind of with the gargoyles. You know,

(23:33):
the beauty is is within, you know, the beauty of
God or you know, whatever is within. So even if
he like, well we'll still say that about people that
you know, he's got a you know, dog face. It's
like he's just he's that ugly that which is kind
of rude. But I doubt that you know that that

(23:57):
was that that was it, or that was you know,
all of it, especially if they say that there is
like you know that he also preached to just well
all the others. It's like, okay, so there was a
there were more. There was an entire well entire race

(24:17):
really of you know, dog had its giants, which still
sounds weird.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
Yeah, and not all of them were giants, so like
some of them were mentioned as being giants. And then
a lot of them were mentioned.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Is not.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
There were still frequently referred to as being tall but
not necessarily giant. There's a lot of variation, just like
there is with other giants, right, So you have the
Cyclops that almost everybody has a version of Cyclops right
in their list of monstrous races. And so, but then
there were just normal giants where it's like you look

(24:52):
like a dude, pretty big, you know, And so there
were different giants of these different races. Was part of
the idea, So varying giants, verian races. Yeah, and this
is part of this again, like backing up the biblical
paradigm wraps a lot of these things up in this

(25:12):
concept of the nephileine later then becoming the word refaem.
I use that I said that wrong. It's not that
it becomes it, but they start using the word refayem
to refer to it instead of nephiline, if that makes sense.
So it becomes the slang. It's like the catch all
term refae takes over in popularity, but nephileine is the

(25:33):
word that goes back further. And the idea was really
this that the story goes in Genesis six that that
God who had created all these angelic creatures, right, of
which there is a lot of diversity. So most people
think of like the Catholic version where you have like
a woman or a baby and they have wings, right,

(25:55):
or dude, maybe with wings, And the Bible never describes
angels that way, not even ones. Some people are like, well,
what about that one passage with that one weird Like
it's like there are women with wings, like, yes, but
that's all iconography and they're never called angels and they
clearly represent people groups, so we won't get into that.
But the idea is this, Right, you have these angels

(26:17):
that don't look a lot, all of which don't look human.
We have the ones that are described as looking entirely human,
and then there are ones that look very not human,
very not meaning when we read passages about the Cherubam
or the Seraphim, the Cherubam being these really that's actually

(26:38):
the Biblical version of a sphinx. So they look a
little different, but they're basically a sphinx. And the idea
is this that they would have heads of different animals,
right or heads of a human. Both goes back and forth,
changes here and there, so there's variety. They'd have wings,

(26:58):
and then they'd have these powerful bodies, not always you know,
lying sometimes more oxen or whatever, or the feet of
an oxen. They'd be this chimera combination. Right. But the
idea was that they fulfilled the same role as the sphinx,
is that they were always the guardians of thrones, or
the guardians of certain trees actually, like the Garden of

(27:21):
Eden and the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil or the tree of Life for eternal life. Right. Okay,
So in that narrative in Genesis three, God says, you know,
so the Adam and Eve, right, they fall into the
temptation from the serpent, who says, hey, which, by the way,
you know when the serpent tempts them when he's speaking

(27:41):
to Eve, and he says, you know, if you take
this this fruit, you'll be like God. That word there's alohem,
and it it can mean God meaning yahweh, like the
creator God, or it can also mean just the gods
in general. It's it's a this is a nerdy thing.
I'm gonna say a nerdy word and then i'll explain it.
But it's a concretized abstract plural and what that means

(28:04):
is this word is something like the word sheep. Right,
it's a concept that can be plural or it can
be singular. It's also means that it's this abstract concept
that can mean these spiritual beings in general, but it's
been conquortized about a specific subject. It's about yahweh. So

(28:27):
in this case it can be either thing. So if
we interpret that word to mean eloheim plural meaning the gods,
what the devil would have been saying is if you
eat this fruit, you'll be like us, like the rest
of us, right, you'll be like these eloheem that God
created eloheim, meaning just the spiritual beings in the spiritual

(28:48):
realm that God had created. Because in Eden at the time,
God was there and the angelic hosts were there, they
were all there. Humanity was there, which is why when
he walks up looking like a serpent, which a saraphime
is a serpentine looking angel, so that Sarah meaning serpent
or burning one, it would have been like this fiery,

(29:10):
flying serpent angel person. Is how these seraphim sounds like
a dragon, sounds like.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
A dragones Yes, as you like with the terubam that
you mentioned, like my mind's also kind of went to
the uh the centaur for example. You know, they are
also known as guardians or guardians of the forest.

Speaker 4 (29:31):
And here's what's interesting, right, So when we look at
these concepts and and the things that they're a tempted
in and right and everything, all that happens these different
characters that I'm mentioning along the way, the Cherubam and seraphim.
Here are these angelic creatures that sound a lot like
what the gods look like in pagan mythologists, right, They're
combinations of man and animal, right, and then we have

(29:54):
then we have these other creatures like the nepheline and centaurs.
In the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, in Isaiah
thirty four, verse fourteen, it actually says the word centaur,
but that time it's not talking about the angelic coast.
It's actually referring to these creatures that are negative. They're

(30:19):
these abominations that God is saying himself, Hey, these abominations
are going to haunt Babylon after I destroy you, right,
And so there are these two groups. There are these
cryptid creatures that exist that are from something else, which
I'm about to explain. And then there are these cryptid
sounding creatures that are really just simply members of the

(30:41):
angelic realm, of all these hosts that God created in
the beginning to heavenly hosts. Right, and so that's where
the devil would be one of them, right, Michael, the
archangel would be one of them. But there's tons of variety.
They're all these different creatures. They look different, they look magnificent.
A lot of them are described as like lowing and
their eyes of fire, like they're crazy looking.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
Right.

Speaker 4 (31:03):
But these guys very much match up with a lot
of not all, but a lot of different gods that
you'll find in different traditions. And then again we have
this other group, which when we fast forward from Genesis
three over to Genesis six, when it then says in
verses one through four, it describes these It says, the

(31:26):
sons of God. Now, what are the sons of God?
They are these elohem They're these spiritual creatures that look
like everything I just described, right, all sorts of different forms,
and they're looking down. It says that they see the
human women and they go, those are pretty attractive women. Go,
I think I like that, And I think I also
want to have progeny, I want to have a legacy,

(31:48):
I want to have children. And so they come down
they picked wives, it says, whoever they chose they had,
and then those women gave birth, and they gave birth
to the nepheline, which the Bible then says, or men
of old, the men of renown, which specifically is saying, hey,
these are the heroes of old, right, the the the Hercules,

(32:09):
the whoel Right, these are the heroes of old that
were strong and mighty and had all these powers. These
were the demigods. Right. So when we connect this with
the Greco Roman, or even Egyptian mythologies, these combinations, when
we start to see these people rise about our nowhere,
they're born of the gods, and yet they're also men.

(32:30):
Who are they? Well, the Biblical explanation is, hey, these
guys are the nephelem Now, the twist that the Bible
gives is is, hey, these guys aren't the good guys.
The Bible's claiming these guys aren't positive heroes. These are
actually men who are evil. They're they look great in
the sight of men, they look like they're they look

(32:52):
like they're all that, right, But in reality, they're they're wicked.
And when you it's funny because when you when you
look at the story, even the pagan versions of them,
these guys are not the best. I mean they they
they can do some pretty messed up stuff to people. Right.
There's there's there's rayping, there's you know, there's there's slaughtering
of these people that it's unnecessary. There's all this crazy

(33:14):
stuff going on, right, and so God is looking at
that and saying, hey, that's not okay, right, Like, these
these things are not acceptable in the eyes of God.
So that's the twist that the Bible gives. It says, hey, yeah, no,
those guys are real, they're just they're on the wrong
side of the battle. So you carry on rating through

(33:34):
the Bible the next time. The only other time the
word nephileine shows up is in numbers thirteen, verse thirty three.
And in that verse what it does does something very important.
It connects the concept of the nephileine with these other tribes,
the Anechin and then several others, the Amriots and the
Parzo's and all these different guys. Right, and he says, hey,

(33:56):
these guys are descendants of the nephileine. Now, part of
what's interesting is that for those who are like paying attention,
it'd be like, well, hold on, in Genesis six, you
have all these giants and stuff which you were only
briefly mentioned, right, there's no doesn't build on that. It
isn't until later passages that we get more explanation. But

(34:17):
then right after that, all this wickedness comes into the world,
and that was the point, right, So God's like, hey,
these guys are just breeding wickedness. The extra biblical texts
would expound and say that, really, these giants become blood thirsty,
they're killing everybody, they're eating everything, and the world is
literally just plummeting. This is all pre flood. But then

(34:39):
God says, I'm going to bring about this flood. He
has a reset, destroys everything, saves the one righteous man
in his family, and then there's peace again. But then
several generations afterward you get the story of the Tower
of Babel. And after that then here's this thing that
this trip's a lot of Christians up to at this

(35:01):
time when the Tower Babbel happens. There are other passages
later on that look back and add stuff that the
writer of Genesis assumes you already know because in their time, right,
they already have the context, they already know what happened. Right,
But later on there are verses that look back and say, oh, yeah,
by the way, you know, for anyone who didn't know.
And in Deuteronomy thirty two eight nine, this is where

(35:24):
we see a passage that says that at the time
when God divided the nations, so that's the tower babbyl.
He spreads them out, he divides the nations, he establishes
these borders that when he did that, it says he
divided the world according to the number of the sons
of God. What does that mean. It means that when
he did this, he split them up and then he

(35:46):
put these spiritual beings, the sons of God, right, all
these guys we just talked about, yeah, eyes of fire, right,
and he puts them over these nations. So he places
them there, and these becomes of the nations. These become
what later on the New Testament looks back and says,
Paul looks at these at these guys and says, so

(36:08):
those guys were created, they were real. God put them there,
and then they rebelled. They actually rebelled against Yahweh and
said We're going to do things our way. And this
is where you get this fascinating psalm. I want to
read this to you because it's it's eight verses, very short,

(36:29):
but it's really interesting. Again, this is something a lot
a lot of Christians don't even recognize and might rock
some of their worlds a little bit. But in Psaw
eighty two, verses one through eight says this God has
taken his place in the divine council, in the midst
of the gods. He holds judgment and then it says, quote,

(36:51):
how long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to
the wicked? And then he says, give justice to the
weak and to the fatherless, maintained the right, and the
afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy,
deliver them from the hand of the wicked. And then
he says they have neither knowledge nor understanding. They walk
about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken.

(37:14):
And then he says this, I said, you are gods,
sons of the Most High himself, all of you. Nevertheless,
you shall die like men and fall like any prince,
and then the right of the psalm pops in, and
he has this little side note he puts in. He says, rise,
oh God, and judge the earth, for you shall inherit
all the nations. And when he said that you will

(37:36):
inherit all the nations, he's actually looking forward to a
prophecy that wouldn't come true until Jesus, because the idea
was this that when God divided the nations, he said, fine,
you guys are rebelling. You don't want to be under me.
You're building a tarwer babble. All right, I will, unfortunately
allow you to make that decision, and I will disinherit you.

(37:57):
I'll leave you alone. I'll have nothing to do with you.
I'll make my own nation. And that's what JODREMI thirty
two verse nine says, I'm going to make Israel. And
that's where he grabs Abraham or out of Mesopotamia, a
guy who his wife couldn't have children, and says, I'm
gonna have you have children, and we're going to make
this nation that is going to reveal to everybody else

(38:17):
that I am Yahweh and they should be following me
because I created these gods. They're rebelling against me. So
once he does that, what this is saying is his
plan all along was that he would reinherit those nations,
that he would welcome the Pagans back and say, hey,
all your nations that I let you go, you're welcome

(38:38):
to come back. It's not just the Jews, it's anyone
who wants to go. And this is what the apostle
Paul kept saying. He's like, this is the mystery of
the Gospel of Christ, that it's not only the Jews
who are welcome into God's kingdom. It's that through Jesus Christ,
He's paid the price for anyone who choose to make
him lord of their lives, that they would be welcomed

(38:59):
into the Kingdom of heaven. But in that, that's what
baptism was. It was this defecting. It was defecting into
the Kingdom of God. Well, that's why you end up
with all this spiritual warfare, right, and all these demons
fighting against and saying no, because like, no, those are
our people, and God's like, if they choose me, there's
nothing you can do to stop them, because I created

(39:19):
them and I created you. And that's why Paul actually
goes straight to the Greeks and he preaches to them
in Acts seventeen, and he literally this is cool because
this ties in with what Plato says in Tamais and Critias.
He said to them he was like men of Athens.
I'm quoting here. He says, I perceive that in every

(39:39):
way you are very religious. For as I passed along
and observed the objects of your worship, I found also
an altar with this inscription to the unknown God. What
therefore you also worship as unknown? This I proclaim to you.
The God who made the world and everything in it,
being the Lord of heaven and Earth, does not live
in temples made by men, nor is he served by

(40:02):
human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself
gives all mankind life and breath and everything He and
He made from one man, every nation adam of mankind
to live on the face of the earth, having determined
the allotted periods and boundaries of their dwelling place. And
he goes on. But what he does, and here's these

(40:25):
two things that he mentions. He mentions to the unknown God,
and he mentions the allotted boundaries of dwelling place. Right,
so that goes back to Tower Babbel when he allotted
everything right, and he says to the unknown God. A
lot of people don't recognize this, but it was actually
very popular understanding in the ancient Greek world that there

(40:46):
was this unknown God, that the unknown God was actually
the singular creator of all, including the gods. And this
was something that if you read Tamais and Critias by Plato,
he lines up very clear. And Tomaos was explaining in
this writing to Socrates why it was so obvious that

(41:07):
this was the case, and he makes this philosophical argument.
He says everything he's like, he said, there are two
there are two types of things in existence. There's that
which is infinite. There's that which is finite. Right, if
it's infinite, there's no beginning, there's no end. That also
means that it can't change because there's nothing in between. Either,
there's no they can't change because there's no beginning, there's

(41:28):
no end, there's no middle. It just is that therefore
just exists. And then he says, there's that which is finite,
which is the opposite of that. It's always changing. It
can never fully be one thing because it's in this
state of finiteeness, that there is a beginning, there is
an end, and it's always going to be changing, right,
And so he looks around and he says, look at

(41:48):
the universe, there's constant change. Right, there's constant change, and
the stars and the heavens and the earth and everything
is changing. It's that means that there is a beginning.
The universe has to come from somewhere, there was a
it is finite. So if it's finite, then where did
this thing? Where did this finite thing come from? He's like,
everything has a cause, so someone had to create this,

(42:11):
this universe. So then he says, oh, right, in order
for something to pre exist things that exist, it has
to be infinite because otherwise than what made that, right, Like,
you have to come to the original source. So he's like, clearly,
there's something that would be outside of all of this
that would be infinite. That means that he would be
he would have no beginning and have no end. And

(42:32):
then he looks at creation. He breaks down and he
does this like step by step by step, like logical
argument where he says, well, what do we see, how
can we understand this unknowable creator of everything? Right? And
he's like, well, we see beauty, and so he looks
around and says, there's obviously beauty. And he says for
any artist that it's anything, they're always basing it off

(42:54):
of beauty they see elsewhere, right, And he said, if
nothing else existed before this God, then that God must
be beautiful. And if he's infinite, that means he's infinitely beautiful. Right,
And then he continues to look at everything that he
created and he's like, all right, So if this God
created everything and and it's beautiful, and there's clearly intelligence,
and there's wisdom and all these things, then he must

(43:16):
be infinitely those characteristics. And that includes instead of keeping
all of that beauty and wisdom and intelligence to himself,
but instead sharing that. Then he's not he's not jealous.
And if he's not jealous and greedy, then he must
be loving to give those things out. So here we
have this all powerful, all knowing, all loving, all beautiful,

(43:38):
all wise and intelligent creator that is infinite in all
of those ways. And he refers to him as the
Maker and the father of all, which blows my mind
as a Christian because I'm like, oh, those are the
words we use, right, So, like why is this, you know,
Greek pagan using the same words that I use to
refer to the creator of everything. And then he goes
on to describe, you know, he then makes he made

(44:00):
the other gods, and then the other gods do all
this stuff. And then in his description he actually says,
he describes the allotment, that these gods are allotted over
the regions of the earth. And it's in total agreement
with the Bible in Deuteronomy thirty two eighty nine. It's
an agreement with what Paul was saying here. And so
Paul was describing to these Greeks, Hey, so you know

(44:23):
how you guys already have this concept. You already know
logically and philosophally, philosophly, I just made that word up
and through philosophy that there has to be a god
that made all the gods. There has to be a
source of all these things. He's like, can you refer
to him as this unknown god because he's unknowable, because

(44:43):
you know, they describe how it's like, how can you
even comprehend something like that? It's beyond everything, He's beyond visible.
He's this invisible God, which the Bible also refers to
him is that? And so Paul says, hey, guys, I
can tell you who this unknown god is. And that
fascinated the Greeks because there were like, how that's right,
that's impossible. So they're like locked in, like what's going on,

(45:05):
Like explain this to me, you know, and so he explains,
you know, the story and scripture and how Jesus came
and how all this, you know, points back to Yahweh
being the god who created, and then you know, and
then you have this split. So, you know, half the
Pagans are like, that makes a lot of sense, and
then they start following Jesus and Yahweh, and then the
other half are like, I'm not convinced, and they continue

(45:26):
on in their ways. But that's how the Bible actually
is in a lot of agreement with at least aspects. Right,
there's contradictions, but like aspects of the pagan understanding. You know,
the difference is in whether or not you believe Christ
to be fully God and fully man right that he

(45:48):
died for sins and all that, And then the difference
is whether or not you believe that Yahweh is that
that the god of the Jews, god of Jesus is
the supreme God who created everything else. Those differences aside,
you have very similar stories that. In fact, even Peter
in his letter to one of the churches and second

(46:09):
Peter chapter two, four through six, when he describes the
Genesis sixth story, we talks about those angels coming down
and giving birth to these demigods and everything, which he says, Hey,
those those angelic creatures that did that, those are actually
the ones who are thrown into Tartarus. He uses the
word Tartarus, but he connects it to the Greek mythology.

(46:31):
He says, those are the Titans, and now they're chained
in gloomy darkness and the abyss. But he's saying, Yahweh
is the one who put him there, you know, not Zeus,
not the others. Right, So there are these similarities and
then there are these they those are some of the differences.
I know, I said a lot.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
So yeah, no, no, but it's it's all very it's
all very interesting, and it's it's something that I have definitely,
you know, definitely learned, definitely have you know, have seen
over the years that like take whatever religion, whatever spiritual
path someone may follow, and there are so many things
that connect and what you described as the the alohem

(47:14):
like that the created gods who you know, become the
different gods of you know, the different lands. To me,
the kind of sounds like the well, the very let's say,
the very first pagan gods, you know, those primordial beings
from whom eventually the you know, the gods that we

(47:36):
you know that we know as the pagan gods eventually came,
which also kind of would mean I guess that the
that the pagan gods that we that we know, that

(47:57):
would they be the nepheline done.

Speaker 4 (48:01):
So, so yes and no, So I'm so glad you
brought that up because it was the next thing I
was gonna hit on. So, so you have those two
categories I described, right, and essentially both categories become god.
So you have the fallen angels, right, some of which
were stick around, some are thrown in tartaris right, all
sorts of stuff going on, and then they the ones

(48:23):
that become because remember the ones are thrown into tartarisk.
That was before the flood. So now so now during
after the flood up to after Tower babble, then these
got these other you know, uh, angelic beings. These gods
are put over the nations. Those ones stick around. Now.
God pronounces that judgment in psalmty two and says, you
will die like princes, but not yet. Right, So they're

(48:45):
they're they're on a probation, if you will. So they're
still sticking around, but in and they still have power
and all that stuff. But God is, you know, continue
telling that that that you hate, stop worshiping, that they're
not your God. And he says that a lot like
he's not denying that they exist. He says, don't worship them,
they're not yours, like I'm your God, you worship me,

(49:07):
don't whip worship their gods. That's that's the god of
you know, the Mobid, So that's the god of whoever.
And he names them, he names you know, Astaroth, and
he names Kamash and all these different gods. Says, yeah,
those gods, Yeah, those are the gods over those nations.
You worshiped me, right, And he's continually, you know, telling
me that I pulled you out of nothing, like you
guys are gonna worship me, all right, And so what

(49:29):
you have is you have those gods, but then you
also have Deuteronomy thirty two. Believe it's verse seventeen. It
talks about new gods, gods which their fathers had not known.
And you're like, where did they come from? Right? What
are these new ones? And and and the words that
they use there is they call it a few different
things like sons of god gods you know, elohem elim.

(49:52):
And then it also uses the word shadem, which it's
like the word shade, but in plural form, and that
shade is actually this concept for demon. And the idea
was this that when the nepheline they were alive, right,
they fight, they die. When they died, some of them,
not all suck around, essentially a ghost in a way,

(50:15):
and as they stuck around, they actually became these you know,
lesser gods that continue on. So this would this was
what would make a lot of sense with Now it
could be either way, but this is what could make
a lot of sense. With some of these gods. There
are these chimeric combinations like Anubis, right or who knows,
maybe Anubis was was actually one of those Alohim and

(50:37):
his sons were the ones that were the dakkad of people,
you know, I don't know however that works. The idea
is that some of some of these these nepheline that
now die. Specifically that word repaem that I mentioned that
word as you continue to read. Now it's it's harder
for English speakers because it's then translated, but you can
use software and stuff to see the original words. But

(50:59):
when when you follow that word, you trace that word
throughout scripture, that word refaem starts as just referring to
a specific tribe of giants, right, and then it becomes
this catch all term for them in general, and then
it's this category like and then it says in Deuteronomy
two and three, oh well, these guys were counted as refayem.
And then over time, all of a sudden, that word

(51:20):
starts being used to refer to these departed spirits that
stick around, these these evil spirits that are doing these
different things and look that look very different, that have
these different characteristics and attributes. So those new gods that
come up, or those different spirits that are now added
to the pantheon, if you will, are actually these nepheline,

(51:41):
Which is interesting because we have narratives of people who
are demigods and they rise to become a god, right,
and so the biblical idea is that really that rising
to become a god with simp of them dying and
then continuing to be venerated as a god, continuing to
have spiritual power and domain here. But those are the
very those are the very creatures that that are referred

(52:03):
to as demons in the New Testament. That interesting Jesus
is casting out of people, Like why is it that
when they're possessed, they have their strung like a giant?
Why is that? Why do they suddenly why are they
breaking chains and doing all this stuff with all the
strength that they shouldn't have, right, all these these powers
that are related to these these nephelim that in fact,

(52:26):
when you know, they see Jesus and they're like, please
don't cast us where they said into the abyss, which
is that tartarous location. They're like, don't do what you
did to our parents. I don't want to go where
they went. Not yet, And they said like, don't do
it before a time. So they know they're like, we know,
we know it's coming, but but not yet, Like you're

(52:46):
not supposed to do that yet. And this is where
Paul and first Corinthians. Uh chapter eight and chapter ten,
he says this flat out, it just would be interesting
for you guys here. I'm sure I'll just read these
these quick verses verses five through six of chapter eight
and verse Corinthians. Paul said this. He said, for although

(53:07):
there are many so called gods in heaven and on earth,
as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet
for us there is one God, the Father, from whom
all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord,
Jesus Christ, through whom all things are all things, and
through whom we exist. So he says, how I say

(53:30):
everyone with God and one with Jesus, putting them in
the same boat. Right. But there's that concept again where
he's saying, Look, I'm not saying those gods don't exist.
I'm saying that they came from Yahweh, and I worship Yahweh.
And then in chapter ten, verses nineteen through twenty one,
he says, what do I imply then that food offered
to idols anything, Because he's addressing how like Christians were

(53:51):
getting pretty finicky about like some of them were like,
we can't eat food that's been sacrificed to idols, and
the other ones were like, no, it's fine, it's not
a problem. And so he was addressing this and he
was like, look, guys, you can eat the food. It's
it's it's okay, unless if like, hey, your brother is
really like struggling with it and just okay, then don't
do it in front of him. But you're like, it's

(54:12):
okay if you do it right. And so he says,
what do I imply then that food offered to idols
as anything, or that an idol is anything. No, And
so you think, oh, so then he's saying that idols
aren't legitimate. And he says, but if you keep breating,
he says, no, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they
offer to demons and not to God. I do not
want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink

(54:33):
the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons.
You cannot particul the table to the Lord and the
table of demons. Here's an interesting thing about that word demons, right,
the Greek word demon, It's actually neutral. It's not it's
not good or bad now, Paul, Right, Paul is using
this in a negative context, but it's meaning this, it's

(54:55):
it's he's looking at those as hey, So those gods,
he literally said, for indeed, they are there right, like
they exist. There's some in heaven, there's some on earth, right.
And then he's like, but if you are going to
be a Christian, he's saying, you can't partake of the
because if you do communion. The whole idea is communion

(55:15):
is just like with pagan sacrifice, when you sacrifice something
to a god and then you were to eat of
that food or drink of that wine or whatever. The
idea is that you're partaking in you know, this relationship
with that and to see you're worshiping. It's the same
thing with communion. Christ says, hey, when you partake in communion,
this is my blood, this is my flesh. And that's

(55:36):
what he's saying, Like if and this is exactly what
he goes on to explain in this chapter. In First
Corinthians ten, Paul's like, if you partake of communion, you're
partaking in the sacrifice of Christ and you are partaking
in that altar when he was sacrificed on the cross.
So he's describing Christ's death as an offering, right, It's

(55:57):
just like with the pagan sacrifices, only it's to God right,
and it's too to Yah, it's to the Creator God right.
And so he's saying, hey, you can't do both, Like
he's saying this like you're you're on contradicting sides and
that's that's and that's the issue here, is like, so no,
like you can eat the meat, and he's like, that's
that's whatever. But what you can't do is partake in

(56:19):
that sacrifice, like intentionally partake in the sacrifice to these uh,
these demonicainst east right, to these to these gods, these
lesser gods. You can't do that and be like, oh no,
me and Jesus are are good friends. He's like, that's
that doesn't work, like pick pick the God, right.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Yeah, no, that's that seems that that sounds pretty logical,
you know. It's it's it's you know, it's one or
the other, like you're not even though I know some
pagans are you know, they they do follow Christ and
the pagan gods. And I I mean I I don't.
I don't agree with that, you know, I mean it's

(56:58):
one or the other. I mean myself, I I do
see I've said that many times before. But I do
see the value in the teachings of Christ. I do
see him as this this powerful, you know, mystical divine figure.
For sure, I acknowledge that. It's just I I choose

(57:23):
to you know, let let let that be that I
I acknowledge it. I don't necessarily follow him. I don't
have anything against him or you know, against against God
or the Christians or whatever. It's like, you know, you
do you let me do me?

Speaker 2 (57:36):
You know?

Speaker 1 (57:36):
All good? Right, that's why you know, that's why you
know when you emailed me like, hey, you know, like
I am a Christian. It's okay if I you know,
like I have all these scriptures, like is it okay? No,
it's a pagan podcast. It's like, no, you know, it's
it's cool, you know, I I like you do you
like if you let me do me? That's that's perfectly fine.

(57:59):
But wow, that's a lot to want back. So that
that really also it kind of I do love actually
that it is confirmation of the acknowledgments of other gods,
because so many Christians are like, no, no, no, there's just
one God. All the other gods either, you know, they
don't exist or they are you know, as as you mentioned,

(58:21):
like they are demons and they're trying to trick you.
They may be demons in like you know, guardian spirits,
they're not demons as like evil entities as as you
you know you say they are. There is a major
difference in that, but that that really sounds like it

(58:46):
sounds like the the primordial gods. It sounds like the
the pagan gods of Europe. And then also like kind
of going down even another layer in what we for example,
would now recognize as as cryptids, you know, like mothman, owlman,

(59:09):
you know, the the yetti or whatever. You know. There
they are these mysterious mythical beings that like appear and
disappear in you know, into into thin air, like they
have some sort of other worldly, outer worldly power, which

(59:31):
would makes sense if you know they are. This is
just this is very much speculation, of course, but if
they are, like you know, going way down down the line, uh,
there would be some some uh divine power left right
of course, you know, it would take I think probably

(59:55):
thousands of generations, hundreds of generations, I don't know how many,
but too you know, like fully dilute that. So that's
that's interesting. Like that just sounds like the multiple generations
of you know, the primordial gods, the Titans, the you know,
the gods of Europe, the pagan gods, you know, their

(01:00:19):
children eventually, you know, like the like one of my
favorite stories that of you know, of Loki for example,
you know, with the with the giant stone mason who
built the who was tasked with building the wall around Asgard.

(01:00:42):
And as I always say when I you know, tell
this story, yes, even the gods that was a good
idea to build a wall around the realm.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
So yeah, you know, yeah, you always such a in
heaven has walls in heaven. Hey not far off there
we go.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Look, even the gods, even the gods think it's a
good idea something to it. But you know that Stonemason
turned out to be you know, of course, a giant
who was tricking the gods.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
He he said like, okay, I can I can finish
this wall. It's gonna take me, don't let's say five seasons.
So it's a big wall. As Guard is a you know,
it's a big realm, and there's a lot, there's a
lot there a lot to be, you know, to be covered,
a lot, to be in circles. But you know, in

(01:01:37):
trade of that as like a reward, I want frey
as handy marriage, because of course, you know, the most
beautiful of all the goddesses, most powerful of all the goddesses.
Of course you want her handy marriage. That's what everyone wants.
And I want the sun and I want the moon.

(01:01:57):
And the gods were like, okay, that's that's it's tall order,
that's that's a that's yeah, that's quite the that's quite
the demands.

Speaker 4 (01:02:04):
You know, I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
And then Loki being you know, being the trickster. You know,
I still don't understand why the gods keep listening to him.
But he said, nah, you know what, that's that's kind
of you know, let's let's let's talk. Let's just say,
you know, like give into his his demands, but tell

(01:02:28):
him doing in three seasons. You know, there's no way
that he's gonna he's gonna be able to do three seasons.
I mean, you know, look at how big the wall
is going to be, and like we'll send him, We'll
send into like the furthest quarry that we have to
make sure that, you know, hauling the stones and and
all that just takes forever. And the gods they just

(01:02:50):
said like, ah, I mean should should we should we
listen to Loki? I mean he's got three seasons for
this quarry. There should be no way, right, what do
you think? Yeah, it turns out that the that the

(01:03:12):
Stonemason who turned out to be a giant. They didn't
know that back then he had this this powerful stallion.
He was kind of negotiating that, like, you know, three seasons,
sure I can do that. But then I you know,
I am gonna need my my stallion to help me.
And the guys were like, oh, sure, sure, there's no

(01:03:33):
way he's going to do with three seasons here with
the stallions, you know whatever. And then you know, it's
like halfway through the second season they were like, ah,
that he seems making pretty good time. Actually it's it's
looking like he's gonna make three seasons. What do we
do now, Loki? Go fix this? You caused it, Go

(01:03:59):
fix this. So Loki was like, but but but but no,
why why me? Why always me? What have I done?
You convinced us? You said, there's no way he's gonna
be able to do in three seasons.

Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
He is.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
It's looking like he's gonna be able to do it
in three seasons. You know, So either fix the problem.
It's your head. Look.

Speaker 4 (01:04:19):
It was like, well.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
I do like my head, Fine, fine, I'll I'll go
fix it, I guess. So he this is where I'm like,
kind of the whole cricket thing comes in a bit
as well. He turned himself into this, this beautiful mare

(01:04:43):
and uh, you know, alerts the sellion a way to
do some you know, some some hanky panky and do
it as you do. And by doing that, he uh,
you know, caused enough of a delay that the three
seasons passed and you know, like Tom was up. But
from that came from the coming together of Loki and

(01:05:09):
maraform and the stallion of the Giant, the Giant Stonemason
Ah came the the eight legged horse who later was
named Slipe Near and slipe Near because Odin, Odin and
Loki are are blood brothers. They're not you know, they're

(01:05:29):
not like family, but they're blood brothers. So Odin was
like a man like a child came of this. I
can't just I can't just banish it, you know, like
I kind of should I can't banish it to the
furthest regions. It is a child of Loki. He did
help us, He did, you know, fix the problem that

(01:05:50):
we told him to fix, which he cost in the
first place. Okay, I'm just I'm gonna take this, you know,
this horse under my wing. And then it became you
know Odin. Uh, you know, it became Odin's stallion. It
became the Horus, which enabled him to to write over

(01:06:11):
the realms of the nine Realms of Therasil. It is
on slipe near that that Odin sits during during the
wild hunt. So like that is another well generation down
the line. Really right, that's the kind of a divine being,

(01:06:32):
but kind of kind of not.

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
And this is where the extra Biblical passages, so Jewish
literature that isn't in the Bible, actually speaks to some
of that that concept. There's there's a book called the
Book of Giants already fun right, the Book of Giants,
and we only have fragments of it. Actually, we don't

(01:06:56):
have the whole whole thing because we found these scrolls
in Kumaran and they're very old, and there's only fractions
of it that still survived, right. But from that there's
actually this this fragment it's four Q five three one
for anyone who wants to look it up. But then
that fragment, it talks about how that Genesis six narrative

(01:07:21):
write that story about the Nepheline being born. It says,
it says not only giants. It says when they gave,
they bore giants and monsters. And that's this similar thing
where like sometimes it's giants, sometimes it's something else, something
not human at all. And first, first Enoch, which is

(01:07:43):
apocrypha apocalyptic text as well, and Jubileese. These are both
writings that were found in the same scrolls and areas
the Book of Giants. Both of those writings in chapter seven,
and both of them they also talk about other creatures
being born. It actually specifically mentions three races. And I

(01:08:04):
have an article on my blog about this, and it
mentions the Great Giants, the Nepheline, and the el Joe
or the Eliud. And we don't know what that last
category is, like, we don't even know where those words
come from. It's totally mysterious. But the takeaway is this
that the concept was that there was it was more
than simply just giants, and that's where we get all

(01:08:29):
this wiggle room for the other cryptids and creatures that exist.
Even specifically in the Bible and the Viticus seventeen seven,
there's this verse where God tells the Israelites that they
can no longer fornicate with and worship satyrs like goat.

(01:08:50):
People say to yeah, fawns, right, He's like, hey, you
guys can't do that anymore. You're like any modern Christians, like,
what are we talking about right now? What do you mean?
What fought? What's what do we say? What you know?
What do you mean? Like? You don't make a law
that you can't do something with something it doesn't exist, right,
And there were there, of course are people who who
squirm at that, and they're like, well, no, maybe it

(01:09:11):
meant something else. Maybe it was a goat that was
possessed by a demon or something else. It's like, I mean,
you can say that that's not what anybody thought in
the ancient context of that. And we can say that
definitively because of all these other ancient writings that we
have where the Jews are like, yeah, these things exist
even in because there's tons of Jewish writing, tons of
Jewish writing, and in a lot of those legends they

(01:09:33):
talk about satyrs and they'll describe him in detail. Oh yeah,
there was this time where this is we're like, King
killed this guy who had you know, the head of
a person, but the body of the goat, and just
describes a satyr. Right, And so then we also have
verses like Isaiah thirteen twenty one and thirty four verse fourteen,
where again this is actually God speaking and is saying

(01:09:54):
pronouncing judgment over a region or whatever, and he's saying, hey,
this area is going to be haunted by and then
we'll list off these mythical creatures like the satyrs. He
mentions Lilith in verse fourteen of thirty four. Oh yeah,
he mentions that Lilith will be there. Yeah. English translations
don't say Lilith. I don't know why. They'll say night monster,
they'll say uh, screech owl, they'll say all these different things.

(01:10:18):
But the Hebrew specifically says proper name Lilith. Right, wow, okay, yeah, yeah,
So God is acknowledging that she's there, but he's treating
her as hey, again, you know, bronic entity that I'm
going to have like haunt this area, right, as well
as and and the of course of the Greek version
of as Lamia, right. And then which the Septuagent, the

(01:10:41):
Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, which
is called the Septuagent, is the translation that specifically says Lamia.
So it even even uses that because they're like, we
know who we're talking about, like same one, yeah, But
it also mentions that this third character which and the
Hebrew really reads more like potentially it just means like howler,

(01:11:05):
and no one officially scholars are like, we don't know
what this is, right, They like, I just don't know.
I think that it the Hebrew really reads more like
it would be a dog man because it's like a howler.
It's a dog at they'lt say jackal or hyena, and
it's we know it's demonic and chimeric given the other
things in the list that it would be in the

(01:11:25):
same category. But the Greek the subdugen of that, right,
the Greek version of that, they actually have a completely
different word. They put in the word I'm gonna forget
how it's pronounced, but it's a word that means like
donkey centaur, specifically a donkey centaur, and so you're like, okay,

(01:11:47):
what right, and so like here's some of those weird
cryptids that are showing up in the Bible that it's
it's specifically God himself, tuckey. It's not like a person
said it and people are like, oh, well, maybe they
were wrong. It's like no, here's yahweh saying those creatures
One you can't have sex with them anymore. Two, you

(01:12:08):
can't worship them anymore, and three like they're they're gonna
haunt destructed Babylon, right, really wild stuff. And so if
you're looking at that and you're like, well, where do
they come from? Biblically speaking, there's no other explanation, then
these would come from a descendant of the nephileine, right,

(01:12:29):
like this would come from that, right where you have
these these you know, lesser gods having you know, sex
with people, possibly even animals, we don't know, and then
like your story right, like yeah, we don't know, and
then creating these monsters and creatures that are like where
did that come from?

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:12:49):
Like what is that? And when we look at the
writings Josephus who would say, you know, this was this
was a Jewish scholar in the in the Roman Empire
writing about the Jewish scriptures in Greek, so that you know,
the Romans Greek cannot understand that that you were say,

(01:13:11):
he was hired on like hey, can you explain your culture?
Can you explain your stuff? Right? Yeah, he does that,
and it's wild. He gives basically a commentary in the
whole Bible and history all the way up past Jesus
and everything. It's crazy. So he what he does is
when he's giving that explanation. These two passages I'm citing
are from Antiquity Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus,

(01:13:35):
Book one, chapter three, Section one and book five, Chapter two,
Section three. I'll have a by the way, I know,
I'm like spitting out all this information, all this stuff.
I will I will have I always like when I
go on a podcast, I write everything out. I have
links and notes and citations. So I'll put that on
my blog and I'll give you the links. So anyone
who's listening, I know i'm speaking fast. I know I
have all this in Freich, but you can take your

(01:13:56):
time and go through it. I'll see it for yourself. Sure,
thank you, Yeah, absolutely. So. Yeah, So in that he
describes he says, hey, these one he specifically says that
these are the giants of Greek mythology, Greek traditions, and
two he says he says that their countenances were entirely

(01:14:17):
unlike mankind. So he literally says that these definitely these
these giant creatures, you know, monstrous beings. He's like, they
don't even look human, which makes me think of Anubis
and all those gods with these crazy right everything, we're
talking about these cryptid creatures. Like he's like, no, no, no,
they don't look human, like you don't understand. And he

(01:14:38):
even says that they're terrible to sit, and they're terrible
to the hearing, like terrifying to hear the sounds that
they would even make.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Right, So yeah, that is that is like basically every
every cryptid ever, right, you know that they're they're you know,
you don't want to hear them like they like in
the woods, are exactly anything like that, because you know
that is the end. And if you ever you know,
if you ever spot them, most of them are just

(01:15:04):
either you know, incredibly incredibly hideous. I have definitely, you know,
covered some on the channel that you know, if I
were to see them in real life, I'd be like
not for me, yeah, or exactly, or they like they
kind of kind of resemble humans maybe and but just

(01:15:28):
so incredibly just so incredibly well ugly or misforms misshapen
that you're like, oh, I don't know what that is.
It resembles a human, but no, no, like if if

(01:15:51):
you're going to go that way, I'm just gonna go
that way. By wow. They so they don't even look human.

Speaker 4 (01:16:00):
Some of them did, right, but he was like pointing
out that like a lot of them didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
Oh wow, Yeah, that that's that's kind of where you
cross over into the uh, into the realm of cryptids,
into the realm of you know, of monsters for example,
and says, yeah, yeah, no, I mean they are they
are not human. Uh you know, even even centaurs, even

(01:16:28):
if they have like the the upper body of a man,
you know, it's still like they're half man, half horrors.
It's kind of it's kind of terrifying. No, no, exactly,
and like anything not not natural, anything, you know, not human.
I recently, on another show that I'm involved with, had

(01:16:51):
Paul Stubbs on who does the who is known from
the uh the clowns are the nepheline, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:17:00):
Thing, Yeah, yeah, I'm I know a guy who knows him.

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):
Yeah yeah, no, I I I've had him on my
own show and now I've had him on another show
that I'm involved with. He like that's He also said,
like with the clowns, like it's you know, they don't
look human, and that's that's why it's so it's so terrifying.

(01:17:26):
That's why they're so terrifying.

Speaker 5 (01:17:28):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
They they have these you know, like giant red noses,
these giants you know, like red mouse, giant feet and everything,
you know, tiny umbrellas also kind of indicating that hey,
they are giants. And you know it's not just on
County Valley, like if this, there's so many. Like any

(01:17:52):
pretty much any kid ever is scared of clowns because
they're scary. They just look at you know, yeah, they
don't look they don't look humans. So you know, and
maybe it is this you know, this very deep seeded
fear like going all the way back to you know,

(01:18:13):
biblical times for example, when these monsters were whatever they
were were, you know, still more more prevalent, and we
had to deal with them more often than we do
now thankfully. You know, I can very much imagine that
that is just like liberal blood memory is coming up
again and be like, nope, I know that not doing that.

Speaker 4 (01:18:37):
Nope, no, thank you, yeah, yeah, And that this is
you know, it's interesting because a lot of those, a
lot of the writings in scripture that talk about these
giants is actually you know, God talking about him and
saying like, you know, who is mighty enough to destroy them? Right?
But I because there are a bunch of there a
bunch of times where they're fighting these giants and it's

(01:18:59):
just not enough, right, and God, God will rain down
like brimstone or hail or whatever and just like destroy
full armies of these. I just hit my mic full
armies of these I took from my hand, switch of
these giants, right, And that was part of his like
display of the power. It was like, look like I

(01:19:21):
can destroy these giants even when you can't.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:19:23):
We're like there's a story with Joshua, really cool story
where where they're fighting these giants and you know it's
too much, and he asked God, hey, can you stop
the sky? Can you freeze the sun and moon in
in positions so we have enough light so that we
can keep fighting. And so he freezes the sky for
a full day and they continue. Yeah, and they continue

(01:19:46):
to fight and he rains down all this stuff and
they just obliterate these army of giants and they win.
But it's just it's a wild story, and there's actually
it's really cool. There's been there's been h I guess research.
I don't know what the right word is with astronomy,
but there's a discovery not not all too long ago

(01:20:08):
where they found that because we have this this software, right,
because they know how the stars are very they can
move very mathematically precisely, right, and so we're able to
map all that stuff. Well, they're able to run things
back in time and it's really cool and they're able
to use that for all sorts of research, right, and
that's how we know certain temples were aligned with certain
stars at certain times and all that stuff. Yeah, well

(01:20:30):
they rewound and they found today where they're like everything
in our solar system would have had to stop for
a full day, and that makes no sense. And so
it was this big thing because they're like, there has
to be an error in the program, like this can't
be right because everything can't just stop for a full day.
And we're like, dude, come on, it was Joshua is

(01:20:53):
Joshua and his van like that, and it was in
the right time period too, of like that's where that
would have happened. So it's a cool story, right, cool. Yeah,
And it's it's neat to see like random things like
that pop up and then a line or even that,
you know, when they're fighting Jericho whatever, like it wasn't
all too long ago. They discovered Jericho and instead of
the walls falling in, which is what you do when

(01:21:13):
you have a siege, they found the walls were blown
from the inside out. They're like, that doesn't happen that never.
It's literally never happened before. They've never found any city
like that before. But that's the story, is that they
marched around, right, they blew their horns, and it was
God who blew the walls out. It doesn't say that
they went outwards. It says that he knocked them down,

(01:21:35):
but only that only that situation which you run into
walls coming outward rather than inward. So it's cool those
little things that end up, backing up, you know, the
old writings, that's the world.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
Yeahah no, that's something that's happening more and more that
you know, Sawiens and the research that they're they're doing
and all the fields really is now starting to prove religion, right,
which is I mean like even like even with the
pagan gods, even here in Europe, you know, that is

(01:22:09):
that is happening with the things that they find. You know,
there have been quite a few like very hot summers
here in in Europe, so you know, a bunch of
rivers like dried up, like almost dried up, and they
they found artifacts that you know, like indeed confirmed you know,

(01:22:34):
certain stories but you know the the Anglo Saxon or
the or the Germanic stories, you know, certain like even
glaciers that have have you know, molten to a point
that we found it was like a full a full
kit almost, you know, like with arrows and everything like

(01:22:56):
just perfectly preserved in that's yeah, yeah, no, that's yeah, absolutely,
But it's that's I am like, I'm so happy that
science is now finally like hey, you know all these
things that all these religious people have been saying that happened. Yeah,
they happened. Yeah, and it's like I told you, We've

(01:23:21):
been telling you for hundreds thousands of years, this is
what happens. And you know, everyone else is like, oh,
you know, your ancestors and everyone else, they just had
this crazy rich fantasy or this crazy rich imagination or
you don't know, like even cave paintings depicting other worldly

(01:23:44):
beings or whatever, and it's like, oh, you know, those
silly cavemn just drawing random stuff. And then later on,
you know, it's like, oh, there might actually be more
to this than just oh you know those silly cavemn whoops.

Speaker 4 (01:24:01):
Yeah. Yeah, It's like that with so many things. That's
some of the stuff that I've discovered with the dog
maned research, where you know, Rotess is like, oh yeah,
they're document in Libya, and then you go to Libya.
Guess what, there's rock art depicting people by the heads
of dogs. And you're like, yeah, I wonder why you know,
and people like, well, there's no archaeological evidence. So I'm like, actually,
there is archaeological evidence, Like there are depictions all over

(01:24:25):
the place, stone statues and carvings and cave paintings that
you name it. You know, but but like you said, no,
that's just it's just their imagination. It's just their it's
just metaphor, like not if you ask literally anyone from
that period, right, like that's why you know, like, oh, Homer,
he just made all that stuff up. Well, then you know,
this is why no one was looking for Troy. And

(01:24:46):
then that one guy who was like I think he
wasn't making it up finds Troy. Like maybe it's because
they weren't making it all up, right, And you know,
those creatures and things that show up in Homer's writings.

Speaker 1 (01:24:58):
Like.

Speaker 4 (01:25:00):
A lot of those are the ones that we're talking
about today, a lot, like you know, giants and cyclops
and witches and Morelif's like, you know, it blows my
mind when they're Christians who are like, well, no, there's
there's no such thing as magic. I'm like, have you
read the book you say you believe in? Like there's
magic all over in the Bible, like it's always talking
about you know, wich is doing all sorts of crazy

(01:25:22):
stuff and God's like, hey, stop it. You know, you
know it's not supposed to be doing that. But like
you know, one of the craziest ones, you know, talking
about cryptids and dragons.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:25:31):
One of the craziest ones is an Exodus seven, verse twelve,
when the Egyptian magicians they cast their staff down, they
become So here's the thing. Most like modern translations will
just say snake, but the word in the Hebrew is
not snake. It's dragon. It's tannine, so literally, and Josephas
says this as well. He explained, this is how I

(01:25:53):
stumbled upon this. I was reading writings by Josephus and
he said, oh yeah, and that's when like Moses' staff
becomes a dragon. I was like, wait, what are we
talking about? So I go back I'm reading and I'm like, okay, well,
let me see the Hebrew because I know enough about
the Hebrew to see if that's what I'm talking about,
and to pull it up, and sure enough, it's the
word tannin. I instantly I'm like, no way, So you're

(01:26:14):
telling me that this is what happened. Moses comes in,
He's like, hey, Pharaoh, let my people go right, kind
of favorite story. Pharah's like, I don't think so. And
it was Aaron's staff, it wasn't moses staff. That's a
common misconception because Moses staff does other things, and Aaron
comes in, he casts his staff down, turns into a dragon. Right,

(01:26:35):
they cast their staff down. We don't know how many.
Who knows how many dragons? Right, they cast their stash down.
Same thing. Boom up come all these dragons. So how big?
Where were they were they outside? I have no idea,
but tannying the idea of Danny. They are not small? Right,
Like when tannine is used sometimes people are like, well,
maybe it means whale because it can't mean something small, right,

(01:27:00):
obviously this isn't whale. But when they're talking about sea creatures,
right for people who don't like the fact that he's
talking about sea serpents. But that's that's like Genesis one,
verse twenty one, first page of your Bible, and it
talks about God making sea serpents. So just a side fact.
But so here in this here's this crazy battle where

(01:27:20):
people are throwing down their magician staffs, they're turning into
literal dragons. They're going at war, and then it says
that God's you always dragon devours every single drag other
dragon to show dominance. It's like, now are you gonna
let my people go?

Speaker 3 (01:27:36):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:27:37):
Like, did you see what I just did? Like, Wow,
isn't that a crazy story? Yeah, it's insane, And so
you look at it, you're like, dude, and Pharaoh is
still like no, not yet. And then it's like thing
after thing after thing after of God just like and
this is what he said in that story, right, Literally,
God says I will judge not just Farah, but he

(01:27:57):
says I will judge the gods of Egypt. It's like
he was he is judging them again, similar thing with
that narrative of them rebelling, right, And so what he
does with each of those ten plagues is he was
doing something that addressed the powers of each of those
ten gods, right, and so he's like, you know how
they have the power of this boom? Take that? You
know how they have the power of that boom? Take that?
And so with each one it was a display of

(01:28:18):
like and you see the magicians are keeping up and
then they reach to a point where they can't and
then all of a sudden, God starts doing stuff that
they can't pull off anymore. And then ending with the
final one, which is really devastating, where he says, okay,
fight like last last call, let my people go and
he's like, no, I will not let you do that,
and then he sends in the Angel of Death, Angel

(01:28:40):
of dest just comes in boom boom boom, boom boom,
takes out the firstborn of every single family unless they
listened to his warning and put the blood of a
lamb over their door post.

Speaker 1 (01:28:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:28:53):
Right, and then that's passover, right, That's that's what the
passover is, and that's what that's why people refer to
Jesus as because that's the passing over. He said, my
spirit will pass over, It'll pass you and not kill it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:06):
So that's literally passed them over, literally passing.

Speaker 4 (01:29:10):
So that's the story of passover. It's a crazy story, right,
And and and then after that, finally he's like, okay,
go ahead, you guys can leave. This is too much.
And because at this point the Egyptians are like, please
let them go, like just stop being stubborn and let
them leave so we don't have to deal with all
of this crap, you know. And so they finally leave.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
Like just destroying armies. Fine, but you know he's coming.
He's coming for our kids for crying our lives.

Speaker 4 (01:29:34):
No, but seriously, right, I mean, I would too, like
I'd be like, please, let these people go. And then
and then of course he has a change of heart
and he's like, no, we're going to kill them, and
they go after And what's really interesting is there are
a couple of different verses in the Bible that actually
refer to Egypt in general. This is metaphorical, but you know,
still as they connect it with Rahab, which is the

(01:29:55):
name of a chaos dragon in the Bible. And so
in that narrative when the Songs of Psalm, the Book
of Psalms, look back on that that victory where the
Egyptians follow them into the to the sea that was
split in half, and then God lets the waters crash
back down destroys all the Egyptian army. When the songs

(01:30:16):
were written later that we're talking about that, they describe
it metaphorically as God crushing the heads of the sea serpent,
which was Rayhab, because Rayhab was a common metaphor for Egypt.
Which is really interesting because they had this they this
way to refer to Egypt as the serpent or the
specific not the serpent, but like Rahab specifically, like this

(01:30:39):
chaos dragon. Sure, they're like, oh, look, you're you're you're
like rayhab You're you're big, you're strong, you're mighty. You know,
that's like almost cosmic, you know, entity dragon, right, and
this was this display of him like crushing the heads
of Rayhab by by destroying the armies of Egypt. So
just a fun little little fact there, connection to dragons

(01:30:59):
and sea serpents. Yeah, yeah, it's a crazy story. It's
really cool. And that's the thing. It's like the Bible
when you give it time to just read it is
so it's so deep, there's so much meaning. It's so beautiful,
like it's it's it's an a jaw dropping narrative, you know,
and I believe it's all true.

Speaker 1 (01:31:20):
But yeah, yeah, wow, No, those are some amazing stories.
And that I mean, that is that is magic. But
that really that literally sounds like like like a magical battle,
like an actual one, you know, like people throwing their
their stabs down, turning into dragons and like all the

(01:31:41):
all the other stuff. My my wife and I, well,
semi recently we we went to a well online lecture,
a zoom lecture of a like a world renowned egyptologist,
and she also said that you know, in back in
those days, in Egypt, magic wasn't special. It wasn't it

(01:32:07):
was an everyday thing. Yeah, it was an everyday thing.
And that's that's also you know, like you see that
everywhere like magic, it's it's it's normal, like even offerings
you could say, is performing magic in a way because
you are communing with the gods. And that's that's also why,
you know, why every Christian says, like, oh, you know,

(01:32:29):
magic is bad. It's like you sure you know, like
raising right, you know, rising from the dead is not
not magical, making making the blind sea again is not magical.
Turning water into wine is not magic. So literally splitting

(01:32:50):
the sea is not magic. Well if that is not magic,
oh no, no, no, those are the miracles of God. Okay, okay,
I give help.

Speaker 4 (01:33:02):
Yeah. I think the accurate way to say it is
that a biblically accurate stance on that would be that
it isn't that the that magical thing is happening in
the moment itself is the problem. It's God's stance is
you do it through me. You don't do it through
anyone else. And one of the really interesting differences there is,

(01:33:22):
you know, there's a simplicity of it which is I'm
the one who's going to be doing these things. You
don't go to these other gods. That's the simple version
of it. The more nuanced version of it is, you
know because when you read through it again, like I
had an article I put out not long ago that
talked about, you know, divination in the Bible and how

(01:33:44):
you know, divination was the primary means of God's people
communicating with God for a long time. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:33:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:33:53):
The difference was this because but what about Leviticus It
says don't perform divinations? Yes, correct. His point was I
am the one that does these things, Like you don't
go to these other gods to do these things through
their power, so you come to me. And the huge
difference between like magic, let's say, through God and his

(01:34:14):
miracles versus magic through you know, the pagan gods does it?
Pagan gods you tend to have there's a system. Right.
It's like you do this thing, you'll get this effect.

Speaker 3 (01:34:24):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:34:24):
You do this thing, you'll get this effect right, and
you show up you're making this request. They you know,
they flill it kind of thing with God. He goes
out of his way to not systematize where their own
there are a couple of exceptions, one of those exceptions
being specifically divination of like if you do this, like
I'll reveal may will to you, everything else, everything else.

(01:34:46):
He he always shakes it up, you know. One time, Hey, Moses,
you hit hit the rock. The other time speak to
the rock. Different things, right, and then he's like okay.
Even with Jesus where he's like, hey, you know, put
mud on your eyes, or or no, actually you know,
if you just have faith then it'll heal it. Or no,
actually I need to go wash in this pool. He
keeps changing it up, and part of it is that

(01:35:08):
he's like, I don't want you to just have this
perform a formula and you'll get extra result. I want
it to be a relationship with me. If you have
a relationship with me, you just ask me. Then I'll
tell you what to do, and you'll do something different, unique,
and it's oftentimes strange and you won't even know why,
and then it will be you know, there'll be no
doubt that that was obviously me doing that for you.

(01:35:31):
So that's the that's the interesting distinction, right where God's like,
I'm not going to be predictable in that manner, whereas
you know, the pagan gods are a lot more like
here's here's your rule book. You know, do this, and
more or less you're gonna get the same you know result.

Speaker 1 (01:35:47):
Yeah, with with some that's that's more.

Speaker 4 (01:35:52):
It's with magic specifically, right, Like that's not with like.

Speaker 1 (01:35:57):
No, that's more new age new edge would craft though
that is not necessarily pagan magic, not not not in
a way that that I am familiar at least, Like, yeah,
we you know, we asked the gods for for advice.
We we can ask the gods for for help and

(01:36:19):
they will I don't want to say, show us how
to do it, but like they'll they'll guide us on
on the path or to to the path that you
know leads to words our our goal. So yeah, they are,
they're they're steering us in a way like, oh you

(01:36:41):
want this, Okay, we'll make it happen. But you know
we you know, we won't just give it to you
like yeah you have to do something, yeah, exactly, you know,
but we will make sure that you know, if you
do all right, if you do all the right things,

(01:37:02):
you know, we will make sure it happens. But you know,
it's still it's up to you, like you don't don't
really expect from us. That's like, oh, sure you know
here here it you know, oh you want that here
here it is No, it's like you want that, Okay, cool,
we'll help you go get it, you know, go get it.

(01:37:24):
We have your back. Well, well, you know, we'll give
you a nudge in the right direction every now and then,
but you know, really do it yourself. But that's that's
also that's very Europeans, very European of course, because it's application.

Speaker 4 (01:37:39):
That's the it's harsh living here. So yeah, that's the
that's the that's the asking, as opposed to like the
way that most of that the magic part of it
works is that there's more like we know this from incantation,
bulls and jars right where we have throughout history very
specific recipes that they would follow, right, and this is
like you do this, you do this, you do that,

(01:38:00):
you'll get this effect. And that applied to way more
than just that's very different than asking God to do something.
That's you perform this and you'll get this. So through
spiritual means like that healing is gonna happen. But that's
not you know, by your power, that's by the power
of Lilith or Zeus or whatever like.

Speaker 1 (01:38:19):
There are tons of inconditional right, Oh, I bet, I
bet that's it's also kind of going into the into
the realm of of alchemy, which yeah, I have.

Speaker 4 (01:38:33):
Yeah, magic and alchemists pretty deeply related, right.

Speaker 1 (01:38:38):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, I've I've had two at least
two different alchemists on on the show, and each you know,
with their their own practice of course, but yeah, very
very closely related to to magic. But I also believe that,

(01:38:58):
you know, indeed, the the way that the gods are
honored or the way that magic has performed is really
over time has you know, has gone to fit to
the lands, Like I said, you know here in northern
Europe in general, I mean it's it's incredibly sunny outside now,
and we're incredibly you know lucky with that, but that

(01:39:21):
really it can't change any moments, and most of the
year it's you know, it's gray, it's cloudy, it's raining,
it's it's you know, so especially for you know, for
our ancestors who were you know, who had to do
any everything themselves, you know, grow their crops and and
raise their their animals, and whatever, like really no modern

(01:39:45):
what we think is modern technology. You know, it makes
makes sense that you know, their magical practice would be
different than someone from from the Levant or from the
from the mediterrane And you know, that's that's why the no,
that's why that the gods of the Greeks and the

(01:40:07):
Romans are why there are lots a lot of chiller.
It seems a lot more focused on, you know, on
living the good life because like in the in the Mediterranean,
it is sunny, you have all these you know, all

(01:40:27):
these very nutritious fruits and vegetables and whatever, you know,
fresh fish. The Mediterranean diet is one of the most
healthy diets there is. Uh, so you don't have to
really struggle a lot, so you can spend all that time,
you know, thinking and thinking about thinking and practicing your magic.

(01:40:49):
You know, same in the Levant, you know, but here
in northern Europe, in the color regions, it's really like,
you know, we have to make sure that we get
through this winter. Yeah, because if you know exactly so
that really you know, ingrained in ingrading itself in our

(01:41:12):
inner practice, in the way that we that we honor
the gods in a way that you know, we practice
our magic because you know, nothing nothing is for sure,
nothing is you know, for granted. We have to work
for everything that that we have, for everything that we want.
So of course that would uh you know, translate into

(01:41:35):
like I said, how we honor the gods, how we
practice our magic because it is that is our that
is our essence, it is our our way of life.

Speaker 4 (01:41:44):
Yeah, it makes me think of especially when you said,
like think and then spend time thinking about thinking of Socrates. Right,
A lot of people don't know that Socrates was a sorcerer.
He said that openly. He said that he saw that
as like, you know, he was like, you know, well,
how can I be a man of science and not
practice magic like that? That? That was the way he

(01:42:08):
he was like obvious because someone asked like, oh do
you this was I think this was the writing memorabilia
by Xenophon if I remember this correctly, but it was
either that or was one of Plato's works. But you know, Socrates,
he's talking this person and they're like, oh, do you
ever do any magic? He's like, of course I do.
I'm a man of science. And he's like, you know,

(01:42:28):
how how can I be uh, how can I be
an honest scientist. How can I be a pious, you know,
religious person in the higher echelons of society if I'm
not involved in magic and sacrifice? Right, And so he
goes down to talk about how he was fixing elections
and like he's like, yeah, like that's why, like that

(01:42:49):
guy hired me, and I made him an amulet and
that's why all the people love him because he's wearing
that emulet. He's like, oh yeah, and then I made
this thing and he just starts talking about all this
this magical stuff that he made and he's like yeah.
And people were like Socrates was just a smart guy,
you know, and like, dude, he was literally a sorcerer.
And he said, he was like, why are we rewriting history?

(01:43:10):
You know, Like, yes, he he was very he was smart.
But like that's he was a self proclaimed sorcerer.

Speaker 1 (01:43:17):
That's that's that's that's great. That's absolutely great. I I
I love how like science and magic, or science and
religion they were one and the same back then. You know,
it was it was normal. It was a normal, everyday
part of life. I never knew that about Socrates, by
the way. That's that's that's awesome. It's like, yeah, of course,

(01:43:40):
I am. Why wouldn't that be right?

Speaker 4 (01:43:42):
Come on really because it was so normal, that's.

Speaker 1 (01:43:45):
Yeah, no exactly, and I'm I'm I'm actually very happy
that it is kind of becoming normal again, like we
are seeing obvious magic happen in He's definitely been the world. Yeah, absolutely,
in every direction really, you know, right at bath, left

(01:44:06):
hand path, you name it. It has been growing, The
interest has been has been growing. Yeah, it's it's incredible. Yeah,
for sure, I'm gonna have to have to call it here.
I still have another another show. Luckily it's just a

(01:44:31):
guest spot, so I can be a a little a
little late. I think, yeah, let's let's do that. Thank
you so much for coming on. This has been very
very enlightening. This is really I had no idea. It

(01:44:52):
was so prevalent and so normal really, and that like
all the all the credits that we know really, you know,
like saytors I, everydy one who knows sators if you've
seen Disney's Hercules for example, yeah, you know philisnas It's

(01:45:14):
it's that's great, it's it's yeh. See. This is why
I I love having having people on also of you know,
the opposing religion if you will, like I'm here to
I'm here to learn as well, So you have definitely
taught me a lot. I will definitely, you know, look
at this the sources for for myself. I would love

(01:45:39):
to read and interpret them for myself as well.

Speaker 4 (01:45:41):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:45:45):
So yeah. Just again, work and the work, and the
good people find your work if they want to know,
if they want to know more.

Speaker 4 (01:45:52):
Yeah, yeah, you can just google Project Aliasar and normally
come up pretty quick. But Project Alisar dot com is
the website. Specifically, I've got links to all my social
media podcasts have been on and all the other articles
and good stuff there, so it's the easiest way to
find me. But projectally as our as my handle on
social media too, so you can find me wherever you
want to.

Speaker 1 (01:46:13):
Awesome. I well, I'll make sure that the more important links,
of course are in the in the description box down below. Again,
thank you very much for coming on. Thank you very
much for enlightening me and enlightening my my audience and
to my audience of course, thank you all for watching,
Thank you all for listening. I hope you learned as

(01:46:35):
much from this as as I do. If you have
any questions, if you have any remarks you know about
a certain cryptid or a certain god, or you know
anything that we have spoken about in the last like
hover forty five minutes. Almost I could go on for
much longer. I have other things to do. Still, well,
leave them in the comments down below. I will either

(01:46:59):
forward them or try to answer them myself. Make sure
to like, share and subscribe to the channel, subscribe to
the podcast and all the bigger podcasting platforms. If you
feel like supporting the Greend Pagans the Grand Pagans podcast somewhere,
please do go to our Patreon at patreon dot com.
Ford stas Greener and Pagans, where you can subscribe to

(01:47:19):
a tier to your liking. I have at least three
tiers different benefits of Fords the Ground Pagans Book Club.
Find us on Instagram at Greher Pagans and for everything
else that we do with the drive of the Grand
Pagans or the ground Banks podcast, go to our website
ww dot Greer and Pagans dot com. Thank you all

(01:47:39):
so much again. Also, I thank you all so much
from one kuh and yeah, I will see you all soon.
I will see you all next time, Bye by everyone.

Speaker 5 (01:48:01):
This was yet another amazing episode of the Greyhorn Pagans podcast.
We thank you all for watching. We thank you all
for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:48:11):
Remember to like.

Speaker 5 (01:48:12):
Share, subscribe, and hit that notification bell so you will
be notified whenever we upload something new. Support us on
Patreon for early access and for everything else that we
do with the tribe. For everything else that we do
with the podcast, find us on Wwlpagans dot com. For now,

(01:48:33):
we thank you, and until next time,

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