What Makes a God, a Real God? w/ Benajmin The Dream Wizard

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 3 (00:19):
Now let's get.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Back to the episode. The Eye.

Speaker 4 (00:25):
We call on the waves, the loud and right by
the same long we stand.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
As one.

Speaker 5 (00:33):
Beau boy Catlin hand stripe down the phone, protect this land,
Oh it all, Father, secular voice, So guide our souls
to the sacred rhythm.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
Friend, Queen of the hot fun home with love and grace.

Speaker 5 (00:51):
Make a soul.

Speaker 6 (00:54):
Just with your eye might.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Guide of food.

Speaker 4 (00:58):
The topis nights Hell, the mistress of life, Fanta, show us.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
The pap with every breath. Pray upon us love.

Speaker 4 (01:08):
And what we honor you know and forever more.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Wos to lisas we.

Speaker 4 (01:17):
Call the rooms we see showcals, hustles, ride, don't jail us,
We say, Las, flight away, locals, hagger.

Speaker 5 (01:27):
Last Naas we see our spirits.

Speaker 4 (01:31):
Rise on the winds, Las spring it sun Gema, we
must boos the last.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
We must welcome. Welcome back everyone to the Gray Range,
Pagan's podcast. At time of recording. I literally just got
home myself a drink adubbie. Yes, this is product placements.
These these people actually pay me if you buy ship
from them using my coat stiff fox ten. Get the

(01:59):
shilling done right away. Oh yeah, I have my kiddy
co hosts with me, of course, as those my guests.
Tho Wields the dream Wizard himself, who I've had on
once before and I've been on your channel once before.
He's taking over this show because when I'm when I'm

(02:19):
live streaming video games too gets Yeah, that's it's just
so funny too.

Speaker 6 (02:25):
Here is uh, it's got full of his claw marks
to go. What do you do? He's gonna be all
in the face. He's so needy. He does this when
I'm laying down and go to sleep too. He puts
his face on. Mind. We rescued him when he was well,
my wife did. When he was a crying, starving, tiny
little kitten in a bush, been separated from his from

(02:46):
his mother, and we, you know, nursed him and fed
him and he just he loves to cuddle. Never gets enough.
Little separation anxiety.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
I'd imagine, Yeah, I imagine, I imagine. So that's common
among rescues. Turned down my mic a little because I'm
getting some feedback, but yeah, welcome, Welcome to the show
once again, Ben.

Speaker 6 (03:09):
Yeah, good to be back. Always fun to talk to you.

Speaker 7 (03:12):
Have you?

Speaker 2 (03:13):
I mean, last time we did the whole dream thing
on like nothing dream analysis but like, you know, what
does a dream? What does it mean? On my channel?
We went for two and a half hours or something like.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
We like that.

Speaker 6 (03:27):
We I talk a lot, You give me a roll
and I can't stop myself. Well, speaking of which, I
was telling you a story before we get started. If
you want to, yeah, continue, I'm scatter brain, which I
think is part of my secret sauce, part part part
of what makes me able to do what I do.
And so you know, for a while there and I
haven't given this up. I just haven't had a dream

(03:49):
analysis in a while, so I'm like, what am I
gonna fill my time with? I need to work on
another book. But that's like I kind of lost a
bust of passion for finishing these things, Like what do
I do? How do I force myself into that long story? Short?
Started an AI music side venture, so it's it's primarily well,
you can go to my YouTube dot com slash at
Benjamin the Dream Wizard, and down at the very bottom
is just a single playlist of all the AI Radio music.

(04:12):
But the actual channel is at real AI Radio. And
so I've decided. You know, it used to be I
would just release a song whenever I was finished with it,
just put it up there. Put it up there, because
you got to get a bunch of content on a channel,
or it's not a channel. Now I'm doing weekly releases,
so I've got a bunch locked and loaded and ready
to go. This is all all. The story was the
story you missed out there before we started recording, and

(04:34):
I'm working on three or four more and I just
came across. It's weird how things happen. I'm on the
internet and someone is talking about the Elon drama and
then someone else is like, God, why does anyone care
about who Elon's having kids with? And I'm like, and
then the line popped into my head, well you're a
better man than I am, gonna get in And I'm
kinda kind of fascinated by it, even though I know

(04:57):
who cares.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Who cares?

Speaker 6 (04:58):
It's stupid, but it's like, ooh, who's gonna have a
baby with next. It's kind of a celebrity thing, and
I'm like, you know, whatever, my mouse out of the
way God. Anyway, So that line is from a Rudyard
Kipling poem, and I've done several Kipling poems as my
AIAI radio song. So what happens with each poem is
in a way it kind of speaks to me and

(05:19):
it says this is this fits the style of the poetry,
fits a specific genre. So I just did one for
Valentine's Day that just came out. It's a poem by
n Bradstreet from like the sixteen seventies, four hundred and
fifty years ago? Is it now three hundred and fifty
years something like that, three hundred and fifty I think anyway.

(05:41):
So her poem was it's entitled to my Dear and
Loving husband. So it's an ode. It's a love song. Oh,
a love song? What are the different styles of love songs?
And I could have said it in any genre, you know,
nineteen fifties harmony, mister and man style love song could
have done that. But what popped into my head really

(06:03):
was was kind of a almost like Adele or Lana
del Rey, these kind of husky voiced lounge singer. So
that's what I ended up with, lots of lots of
vocalizing harmonies and different stuff going on in that song.
So if you listen to it, it's a it's about
a two minute song based on this poem, and I
said it as a you know, kind of a lounge

(06:24):
singer style, and it's funny. It actually turned out to
the image that was the best. I do like dozens
and dozens of images because Grot still has trouble with
fingers and faces look weird and sometimes there's there's overlapping
objects in the background. I'm like, I just I can't.
I can't release that with that mess. So dozens and
dozens of pictures, and the one that ended up being
the best looks looks a lot like another gal I

(06:45):
follow on Twitter, a comedian by the name of LEONARDA Joni.
It just looks like her, so's I actually dedicated the
song that I told her and I I don't know
if she saw my I mean I posted it to
her timeline. I'm nobody, so she probably has no idea.
I said, you know, I dedicated this to to her
because if what am I trying to say it is
the alternate reality where Leonardo di Joni became a lounge

(07:07):
singer at a jazz club rather than a comedian. And
so I have no idea if she saw it or not,
but that's my process. Though each saw Okay, we sure
too late for that gunga Din. What popped into my
head was a very up tempo country riff, kind of Americana, zydico, accordion, banjo,

(07:28):
you know, doom Doom, Doom, Doom, Doom, Doom Doom, one
of those kind of things. And I'm like, okay, I'm
going for that style of this because it's a very
long poem too, And you've gotta right now, the software
I'm using it only allows three thousand words, but it
will allow you to extend something to a little bit longer.
So I've got to what I had to do with
another side tange, what I had to do with the

(07:49):
Edgar Allan Poe work, The Raven. That thing is like
seventeen verses long, and each verse is like twenty lines long.
It's ridiculous. So I did the first five verses and these,
So the song I released is not the full The Raven,
but with the song like gun getd in. It tells
a full story from beginning Dan. It kind of introduces

(08:10):
the character and how the singer is interacting with that character,
and then events the transpire, and then it ends at
a very specific point, so I get it. So all
of this goes into making the song. And it isn't
just like I go boop, I've got a song. It's
like I'll do I've done what is it? I've done
nine or twenty different iterations trying to get the best

(08:34):
version of something, and then I have to take audio
software and try and clean it up a little bit
because the program I'm using it gets what's called a
shimmer in the background. That's what people have taken to
calling it. It's like when there's too much background noise
and audio distortion going in. And unfortunately this program i'm using,
no no program does this yet. It doesn't do individual tracks. Now,

(08:56):
it'll separate music from vocals, so you can tweak those
a little bit too soft to out. And I do
a lot of a lot of audio engineering on on
the back end to get things to sound better. I
didn't do that at the beginning. So some of the
songs in the beginning are like you can hear the shimmer,
you can hear how awful it is. I just said, oh,
that's that's amazing, and I and then I started picking
up on how to how to do it better. But
I was going somewhere with that that I think I

(09:17):
ran out of words. I'll stop, I'll stop. No, that's
that's a really good story.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
AI music.

Speaker 6 (09:25):
It's amazing.

Speaker 5 (09:26):
It is.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
I mean, the intro that I'm that I have been
using for the last few shows, someone made a new
intro nice Queen of Blades goes by improper Ascension on Twitter.
Sweet he actually did a like a whole room goth
themed song for me, like and he he created it

(09:49):
using AI ruins of the ancients, and it's it's an
amazing song. It is really cool. You know, it's up tempo,
it has that, you know, that that metal vibe that
I love. But at the same time, it's really this
this you know, there's the the pagan spirit kind of
in it even though it is AI. So yeah, like,

(10:13):
I'm really happy with that. And it saves me a
lot of time as well, because the intro that I
was using, that I have used with our previous show
is actually copyrighted music but I have permission from the
from the band to use it. But every time I
upload something on you know, on YouTube, every time I
schedule a new episode, I have to put that in there.

(10:36):
It's like, hey, it's you're using copyright chats, and it's like, yeah,
but I have permission. Okay, well you know, you know,
plame it. It's like, okn, I just every damn time,
you know, And yeah, it's good music, it's a good song.
It's you know, fitting with the theme of the of
the podcast, of course. But now I have one, you know,
like entirely like custom creatists for me. You can find

(11:01):
the creator on band lab is, where he posts most
of his most of his his music, and I of
course have the link in the description down below. The
only thing that I'm kind of sad about is that
I can use the full song as my intro because
it's over over three and a half, closing in on

(11:23):
like four minutes. And yeah, I mean for an intro,
it's it's an epic fucking song, but for an intro,
and it's still too down long, and it's it's such
a shame.

Speaker 6 (11:33):
Yeah, I also do this is just making me think
of other other stuff here too, so I've for my
Dreamscape show, I do use a piece of custom music
created by a digital artist musician friend of mine, and
he gave me four He wrote it for me and
gave it to me, So that's Fanta, and I've used
some of his other works. He's like, use whatever you want.
And luckily he didn't. He didn't claim anything, and no
one's claiming it on his behalf, so I get away

(11:54):
with that. But you know, for I've also been making
unique intro videos for each new game that I play.
I used to get DRM free music from the YouTube
audio Library, and I'm running out. I've gone through everything
that I think sounds good. It's the same problem. What
made me think of this is some of those songs
ended up being two and a half three minutes long,

(12:15):
and I'm like, nobody wants to sit through a three
minute opening song before you just get to the games already.
I'm here to watch the games. So I've been creating
songs using the same program and making custom videos with
that custom music, and I can actually tell it and
sometimes it listens. But I can actually tell it maximum
length of ninety seconds, and sometimes it'll listen and it'll
do the thing, and then it's no longer than an
anime intro, and a lot of people can sit through.

(12:38):
They can sit through ninety seconds, or at least when
it's ninety seconds. They do know how much to fast forward.
If they don't want to hear it, that's fine, But
you get a custom song and a custom music video.
So I've been playing and I'm gonna be playing it
again today at five pm. Life Is Strange from twenty fifteen,
and it's actually the twenty eighteen remastered version, but whatever
it's I'm going back to the original. I have to.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
I have to catch up on those streams I've been doing.

Speaker 6 (13:04):
Story it is. They did a really good job, don't nod.
I've played some other other games or the games that
they've been involved with, and they're pretty good at storytelling.
So it's nice that there's a But anyway, I wrote
a customs. This is what actually got me into doing
the AI Poetry is like. So for that one, I
went to Grock and I said, write lyrics that would

(13:24):
represent the themes and storyline and plot of Life Is
Strange without spoilers, just talk about the concepts involved, and
Groc gave me some lines that were a good start,
and then I tweaked them to be what they are.
Then I put them into suno I use suno ai,
s u n O dot ai or yeah, and it

(13:46):
really is. I have an experiment with others I probably should.
This one works so so well, and I'm very familiar
with it, so I'm just like, I'll just go with
its limitations and do my best. So and then it
turned that into the theme song that you see. It
has a lot of shimmer in it before I really
understood what shimmer was and how to get rid of it.
But I also did another one for the game I
played before that, which was Sunset Overdrive. The conceit was

(14:11):
an energy drink company made a formula that turns everybody
into disgusting mutants and they're all trying to kill everybody.
You've got to rail slide on telephone wires and guardrails
and all kinds of rooftops and you It's very very
very kinetic, high fast paced game. Yeah, lots of lots
of fun. So I did I had again Grock, Oh

(14:33):
you know the x Ai write lyrics, give me lyrics
that are about the game Sunset Overdrive, and just ran
with it, and then I took that and so a
I hasn't gotten to the point where it just produces
instantly exactly what you're looking for in the best possible format.
So there's definitely a human component that needs to go
into it, which is, well, this is a good start.
You've given me some some tasty meat and a lot

(14:56):
of skeleton, and I'm gonna fill in the rest and
rearrange it and make it work. And then also it's
getting into that style. So what you don't want to
do with the song like that is it's all about
you know, rebels and post apocalypse and its tongue in
cheek and a little silly, and so you don't want
to say, make this classical music.

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Speaker 6 (16:23):
Podcast, Wrong Vibe, Wrong Vibe. So it of course it
had to be punk rock. So I'm like, okay, well
give me and had to look for keywords that that
would make Suno behave the way I wanted it to
and give me that punk rock song. And what were
some of the lines. It's a so grind the skyline, pop,
the sickest tricks, living like a rock star to get
my kicks, no time for ordinary where rebels and we're

(16:44):
free in this neon LT nightmare. We refuse to face defeat.
That was great lines, great lines.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
I definitely enjoyed that, Thank very much.

Speaker 6 (16:54):
That's something I also added now to the to the
AI channel is a playlist of all my music videos
people want to see when they just game. I just
take game trailers on on YouTube and again edit them
for time and content and pacing for the because you
want you want scene changes that go with the music.
You want if the music slow and slow before a
build up, you want slow pands, you want slow zooms,

(17:18):
you want static shots, and then when it kicks in
and then you want dynamic action to go. So composing
producing the things that that makes sense, that flow well
and and are entertaining is its own you. So I've
been learning how to do that, just kind of tea
teach myself things. That's I think that's all part of
wizardry too. It's being the kind of person who you know,

(17:38):
you you have the creativity to think of something to do,
and then the determination and ability to follow through and say, okay,
well I'm going to teach myself even if it's difficult.
I know, you know, it's a self it's a self
teaching type of type of Yeah, personality trade is not
the right way to put it, but your attitude towards life.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
I get it, you can get it, which is you know,
the AI stuff is actually a nice segue into you
know what I asked to hear, you know on the
back on the show for is well, let's let's call
them made up gods, because I had this, this discussion
with a friend of mine the other day, the same

(18:16):
guy who made my intro actually, and like I am
a big fan of Ruinscape, like the mmor BG RuneScape.
I've been playing it on and off ever since I
was twelve.

Speaker 6 (18:31):
So like for the last that was ancient when you
got into it. That's back from the mid nineties, I think, right.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
The whole concept and everything. Yeah, I believe it was
like developed in the in the neies and like really
good popular graphics. Two thousands.

Speaker 6 (18:48):
Have graphics improved and kept up a little bit, or
is it still kind of JANKI and all.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
The bends if you play RuneScape three or old school RuneScape,
because they they reboot it or rebooted, redesigned the two
thousand and seven servers.

Speaker 6 (19:04):
Okay, gotcha, because.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
So many people, you know, they didn't like the progression
of RuneScape. You know, they when it was like actual RuneScape.
What's that old school RuneScape? You know, they started playing that,
and then that started to develop, and the graphics got better,
of course, so that they found an old an old

(19:27):
copy or like an old backup on a hard disk,
and they asked their community. They asked their pratayors like, hey, like,
would you want us to reboot this again? And yeah,
they they fucking would. But in RuneScape, you know, it's
also a story about several gods, you know, the three

(19:49):
main gods Gothics, Samarakzada Domain, you know, the evil one,
the neutral one, the good one. And it got me wondering,
you know, since I am poly theists, you are somewhere
in the middle, and there is so much time and
energy has gone into creating those you know, made up gods.

(20:12):
You know, they have followers, they have a backstory. There
are freaking different ages in the world of Gillanor and
like battles between the gods, et cetera. So with so
much time and energy and like even money, which is
just another form of energy really put into it, does

(20:34):
that still make them fake gods because it's a video
game or could you say that you know, they have
kind of come to life in in you know, like
in that way. Yeah, well of course, also like think
of the you know, the love Craftian gods and like
all the gods from the different different games for example,

(20:56):
so much time and energy has gone into crafting those gods.
So just because they're you know, computer generated or like,
you know, just written on paper does not make them
any any less real. So what yeah, what is what

(21:16):
is your opinion on it? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 6 (21:20):
Yeah, I've kind of contemplated some things like this before.
So two things immediately came to mind. And there's a
there's a concept that gods are real or empowered to
the extent of the number of followers that they have.
And that's that's both what am I trying to say,
figurative but also very real. I mean, like in terms
of real life behavior, and the more people believe a

(21:43):
particular thing, the more people behave a particular way. So
you could say, you know, a specific type of God
is responsible for or governs a given society. And in
some cases it's like what doesn't matter if they're real
or if the behavioral. If people behave as if real,
then there what's the functional difference of that one? One

(22:03):
way of looking at the believers equal you know, the
strength of a particular God, which is not a concept
I invented. I'd heard about that a long time ago,
of course, you know. And then the idea that God
would weaken and his influence in the world would weigh
the fewer and fewer followers you have both philosophically and
practically true. Then, like as to the reality of the
God itself, it kind of fits with that as well, like,

(22:28):
you know, the God is as real as his believers
and act in some ways. But it also made me
think that there was a time in human history before
certain gods existed. And that's a controversial statement to say,
because you go from the Christian perspective and you'll say, no,
God was always there. God made everything, you know. But
then you've got, in terms of human storytelling, in terms

(22:50):
of people communicating these ideas and living by these ideas,
there was a time before the solidified what do you
call it, when you know, before the lore had all
come together, for thor for Odin. Yeah, before before they
had a particular image and a particular name, they were
just this this grand force. Yeah, there was there was

(23:15):
a and then. So the other side of it is
that a lot of these things are real to the
degree that they represent something real. So you know, I
love the Greek gods for that reason because they had
some very and I love to go to the idea
of Mars and Aphrodite. I mean, Aphrodite is as real
as the human experience of love. And that's a complicated

(23:37):
thing to tease out, because now does that mean there
is a person, a physical being, standing literally on Mount
Olympus in a temple on the clouds, and that person
is the that entity. That being is the literal embodiment
of love itself, and hauses love to exist, et cetera,
et cetera. I don't know. I've never met Aphrodite, but
I've experienced love, and I've seen love be involuntary, and

(24:01):
I've seen it drive men to great works and to
self destruction. So whatever is going on there, it's a
real thing. And the Greeks pulled it together in that
way of saying, well, we're going to give these forces
of apparent forces of nature personas, and their persona also
kind of describes how the thing functions. So the idea

(24:22):
that Aphrodite sends Cupid to shoot you with an arrow
so you involuntarily experience, and then they get the idea
that we are the playthings of the gods, and that
way we're getting and really the way we experience emotions,
it feels like we are being affected by an external
force love has come into me. I have no choice
to reject it. This feeling is present. Now what do
I do with it? So you know, that's what I

(24:45):
mean when I say things like, you know, a god
is as real as the effect it's describing in the world,
And in that sense we then, you know, somewhat contradictory
to what I was saying before, that you know, existed
as long as humans were capable of that emotion, even
if they couldn't put it into words, even if they
couldn't create a symbol or a description or a describe

(25:06):
a practice of worship for that thing. So I'm bringing
full circle and wrap it up with your you know,
the idea of video game gods being real or fake,
it's it's almost like how real is the thing they
represent and how many followers do they have in the
world enacting that through ritual in a sense so real
and fake almost comes down to, you know, is it
describing something true and people believe it and act upon it,

(25:29):
or is it more pure fantasy like a unicorn where
we can imagine a horse with a horn doesn't actually exist,
but also people don't worship it. It doesn't represent something
that inspires a religious practice. Those are all my thoughts.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, that's a lot of thoughts. I know it's very,
very elaborate, but.

Speaker 6 (25:52):
I get it.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
And you know, I took RuneScape as an example because
it's the best one that I know.

Speaker 6 (26:00):
Were you playing RuneScape when you when you have that thought,
you're like, oh, I wonder about to look at the
gods in this game the kind of inspiration.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Watch a lot of RuneScape content creators and it's it's
very popular. I think the the one with the most
subscribers that might be spark Mac. I believe he is
like well on his way to five hundred thousand subscribers.

(26:29):
Ninety nine percent of his content is old school rooms
Cape content, Like he'll do some other things every now
and then, but old school RuneScape is his well, literally
his his bread and butter. And that also made me think,
you know, even the people who don't play RuneScape, you know,
they call me to contact with these creators, like I
see that in comments often like oh I don't even

(26:51):
play RuneScape, but I just you know, I love watching this.
They also come in contact with these ideas of you know,
like the first age or second age of Gleanor, and
you know, the literal God Wars. There's in the game
there's a God Wars dungeon where all the gods and
their their minions literally their minions reside, so they're like

(27:13):
they're even alive in you know, the world of RuneScape still,
so it it just came to mind like that. And
also because it's so popular on like on social media,
on the video platforms, like I said, you know, close
to five hundred thousand subscribers. They may not all be
followers of you know, those those gods in particular, but

(27:37):
they at the very least coming context through the creator
of you know, of those videos with the the idea
of those gods and my my mind and as a
tendency to go dark. It happens when you're when you're great,
you can switch.

Speaker 6 (27:56):
It's true.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
I didn't even do this on purpose.

Speaker 6 (27:59):
That's why again, Off the Gray had to become Gandalf
the White before he could back off worm Tongue and
save the King of Rohan. Yeah, that's what the worm
Tongue thought. He was being clever. Gandalf Storm and Crow
the Gray. You have no power here, Oh the Gray
has no power here. I ain't gray no more. Motherbuck
throws off a rope. Yeah, yeah, shit. He came back

(28:21):
with a new power, a new focus. That's a power.
See now we're talking fantasy too, but like that inspires people,
that idea of you know, And what it took for
him to get there was to sacrifice himself, him and
immortal being fighting another immortal being, which is very one tonic.
One of them was gonna die, one of them impossibly,
neither one of them was making it out of here.

(28:42):
But his mission was so important he sacrificed himself to
a worthy goal and came back with new power. That
is a true phenomenon that happens in real life. Whether
Gandalf ever existed or not, don't it doesn't matter, you know,
whether he's completely fake. It's a true story in that sense.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, it's oh wonderful.

Speaker 6 (28:58):
I love that. I love it, But I interrupted just aslutely.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
But like even in you know, stories like the Lord
Lord of the Rings, like just there will building alone
that you know Tolkien has put put into it, you know,
the silmar really in the hobbit that the Lord of
the Rings, it has become a world in a way.
And also because he you know, he pulls so much

(29:22):
from Catholicism, from Norse paganism, Celtic paganism. You know, it's
it is all all real in a way. But like
also what I was thinking, you know, there are horrible
things done in the name of made up beings. Like
take Slanderman for example. You know, a very popular creepy

(29:43):
pasta you know, started as like some kind of a
gentleman's like, hey, just come up with something creepy. Well
that turned into a slander Man, which is now an
all like pop culture phenomena. But there have been two girls,
I believe, like twelve and thirty, you know, twelve and
fourteen years old who did despicable things in the name

(30:04):
of slender.

Speaker 6 (30:05):
But took another young child out to the forest and
like attempted to kill them or sacrifice.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Like something that yeah, like the slender Man does in
you know, the lore that is created around him. Yeah,
they made it very very real. But Slender Man and
you know his his stories are absolutely made up. But
still it was real enough for them that they thought

(30:33):
it worthy enough to you know, to do those despicable
things or try those despicable things. I don't know if
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Speaker 6 (32:39):
For sponsoring this episodes as much as ideas sorry as
much as emotions have the ability to grip us and
move us, ideas do as well. I was just thinking
as you were talking the idea of you know, or
the concept of ideas being viral, and it's what we
refer to as you know, mimetics, that these almost like genetics,
these ideas, good ideas, successful ideas, powerful ideas, very bad ideas,

(33:02):
that they can all transmit from one person to the next.
And it's a very strange, like unique phenomenon to humans.
I think. I don't think any prime matory of dolphins
or whatever have any concept of of mimetics like we do,
or ideas like we do. You know, they can't really
communicate an idea that then inhabits the brain of another person.

(33:24):
That's it's all. It's like one of the what's the
the good and the bad and the ugly of the
capacity for communication is I can take an idea from
my head and make vibrations with my throat that hit
your ear, and now the idea is in your head.
That's Joe Rogan I think said, we're like psychic monkeys,
so they can put our ideas into other monkeys' heads,
you know, using using these using the magic of communication,

(33:46):
which which it is really I was going somewhere with that,
but but yeah, so for good or real ideas that
are a field that really sees someone's imagination and they
just invest a lot of time and energy and thinking
about it. That's That's what if I said in the
past of saying you know, what you do is what
you worship is one way I put it. Uh And
and some people think, no, what you worship is what
you do. I'm like, yes, it is both. You know,

(34:07):
what you do demonstrates what you worship, and what you
worship influences what you do. It's one of my cats
is waking up and scratching in a cardboard box and
week that's loud.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Wow, that was a cardboard box. Okay, do you heard
like clock in the background either, Well I heard something, Yeah, yeah,
that's some stud of freaking cardboard.

Speaker 6 (34:25):
Hi. Yeah it is. It's a thick one of the
Amazon delivery boxes or something. And I just put a
blanket in it, you know. I I have little spots
for the cats to rest all over the place, Like
you can see u right right above above my head.
Here's a little cat tree. They use that sometimes. And
actually there's a where is it. Right here in the
background on the is a kind of a little, you know,

(34:47):
plastic basket where I've got folded up swim trunks that
i wear during the summertime it's hot, and so ninety
percent of the time I'm just wearing swim trunks and
trying not to sweat my ass off. Well, that's that's
another place the cats love to direct. And then this
one's a tall cabinet back here, and up on top
is where the probably one of the highest points in
here that they could get up high and look down.

(35:09):
And part of me wants to put a kind of
kind of like a running board all the way around
the whole top, you know, about a foot down from
the ceiling, so the cats can run around the entire
room if they want to. But that's a whole lot
of work, and I just haven't got around to distracting
nothing to do with what we're talking about cats. And
then this guy is sleeping.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, oh so darling, but he passed out, like, you know,
speaking of cats, speaking of pets, Like I'm I I
can turn this into a segway. Uh No, it's all
such a good podcaster. Uh But for like I've seen
that example with with dogs, but I think it's just

(35:51):
pets in in general. Cats maybe a little bit of
a different story, but at the very least for dogs.
You know, we are gods. We are almost these immortal
beings like you know the dolves for that manner, Like
we live five times as long as they do. You know,

(36:12):
we have a living space that you know, is warm,
is nice, is cozy without any effort, like we don't
have to go running around or you know, like find
someplace that we can can hide and warm ourselves up,
and it's like fully enclosed and heated and ventilated and whatever.

(36:35):
Like even the average lifespan for your average sized dog
is what twenty.

Speaker 6 (36:42):
Oh yeah, I mean anywhere from you know ten yeah,
ten to twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, so about the same as as cats. And the
average lifespan for us mortal humans is like eighty so yeah,
like we live a good four times longer.

Speaker 6 (36:57):
Like the comparison too, is you know that, you know,
humans to animals is kind of like elves to humans.
They and if you look at that Tolkien, I mean
they kind of look at us as like these short lived,
not very wise, very impulsive creatures that need you know,
need their wisdom and guidance. Yes, some of us are
more like dwarfs and others are more like else you know,
it's true. It's true. I've always identified with George. Speaking

(37:18):
of video games too, I haven't played an MMO of
that's well, I kind of did. I played Destiny too
for a couple of years, but I was really into
a request back in the day. I played from ninety
nine to two thousand and four. I played a dwarfing
cleric of Brell, so you know, I would run around
shouting praise Brell and hammers high and all that a
good stuff. It was fun.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
I was.

Speaker 6 (37:38):
I was on a PvP server, but I did the
role play thing and I typed in a in a
faux you know, Cockney Scottish type of r medi iritish
dwarven voice that was pretty silly. I had to give
that up because I was playing like twelve hours a day,
and you can't do get to be you know, I
didn't get a lot done during that time period. You guys,
I was going to school too, so I was like,
you know, that was most of it as well as
like this was my hobby between classes and homework.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
So yeah, anyway. No, but I understand, like you get
lost in those, in those kind of games. I have
a tendency as well. But like, yeah, so for you know,
for paths, for our paths, you know, we are almost goths.
We are these you know, like greater beings. You know,

(38:21):
we don't have to hunt. We can just open something
up with light insight and it's cold insight and there's
food there. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (38:31):
How with the magic of operating the handle on a door.
They have no concept of a handle and how it
latches that we can just take this wall and make
a hole in it and we can go out through
the hole. How did you do that? That's amazing?

Speaker 2 (38:44):
No, exactly, So you know, those for you know, the
average animal brain, those are almost like divine powers for sure.
So like divinity, I guess it is very subjective in
a way, you know, or yeah, yeah, some I don't know.

Speaker 6 (39:05):
It depends, I guess on a lot a lot on
how you conceptualize these things, because I think most maybe
say noormies or folks who are who are actively religious,
you know, to say Christians specifically, and they're like, no,
this is a real entity, a real being, God, God exists,
and maybe it's not a man in a robe, but
that's a nice conceptualization that makes it more relatable to us.

(39:27):
But whatever it is, it literally physically there, and it
has taken action in the past, and it does want
specific things, so you know, it's it's one of those
things where like, if you're a true believer, then you're not,
then you don't think it's fake at all. But then
there's there's there's degrees of that as well, where it's

(39:48):
kind of like maybe and you can tell me whether
I'm in the middle or you're You're closer towards the
middle on that one. But for me, I'm like, I
what would I say? I think there is I wrote
a poem long time ago. I'm like, I'm always trying
to clarify my thoughts and it's kind of a poem
but kind of a response to to to the idea
of belief, and it was, you know, it's not that

(40:10):
I don't believe a God exists. It's that I don't
believe all the vain and greedy people who tell me
they know what God is and what he wants from me.
That's the biggest problem, because I've got to get these
ideas from somewhere I'm going to trust someone. And there
are a lot of vain people who grandiose. They just
they think they're right, whether they are or not. It's

(40:30):
the self vanity. And then there's the greedy people who
there are they're drifting. They just tell you what you
want to hear because they want your money.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah, they they want that tithing, you know.

Speaker 6 (40:39):
Yeah, that was my conundrum way back in the day.
And I don't know that I've resolved it exactly. I
think I have a better idea of what I think
God is, and I think it is there, and I
think it is something. What exactly that something is we
may never know. So I'm comfortable with that.

Speaker 5 (40:57):
You know.

Speaker 6 (40:58):
They say it's the ineffable, it's something which can not
be described. The Buddhists say that about the doubt it is.
It's just the way it is, the way things are,
and you either flow in harmony or you try and
swim upstream. But man, you're gonna get tired and the
stream is going to carry you anyway. So yeah, a
lot of my a lot of my you see, is
talking about, you know, trying to harmonize with with with

(41:18):
the natural way things work and then you get the
idiots out there, well, cancer is natural. I'm like, sure,
you got me. That's yeah, that's definitely what I'm talking about.
You should just go with cancer because it's natural. It's
not the naturalistic fallacy. It's you know, it's like it's
like gravity, I mean, grat gravity just is. You can
be angry about it, and you can try to ignore it,
but you're still going to fall over if you lose
your balance, and you still need a whole lot of

(41:39):
thrust to get a rocket endo outer space. It's just
the way, and you just got to, you know, first
recognize it for what it is, see it accurately, and
then decide what you want to do about it, you know.
And that's what a lot of these, you know, say,
instruction books are is like, Okay, here's what the world is,
here's how it works, and here's what you should do
about it. And that I think that's kind of what

(41:59):
characterizes religion. Am I missing? You're just kind of making
this up on the fly.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Your your It sounds and sounds like like me ten
years ago, you know, like I I believe there is
something I just don't know what it is. And then
I you know, I stumbled upon the uh, the pagan path,
and I'm like, oh, well this is it.

Speaker 6 (42:19):
Yeah, there you go. If those things speak to you
and give you meaning and if you find you're able
to better and a lot of the proof is in
the pudding. So they say, like the Bible is basic
instructions before leaving Earth. It's okay, that's clever, that's just cute,
But it is. Yeah, that's what it's. Whether it is
or is, and that's what it's meant to be. This
these stories are meant to be informative, instructive, you know,

(42:39):
and and all the all of the above. So I
was going somewhere with that.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
I forgot every Yeah, no, I mean it's the same
thing with the poetic at Us, same thing with the
Purse at Us, same thing with the with the Havamal,
same thing with you know, all the all the difference.
Stunzas like they're not religious texts. Like every time I
speak to her, Christians like, so like, what are your
religious texts? Well, we don't have any. Okay, it does

(43:06):
not compute mm hmm. But you know, there's stories about
our gods, there are stories about our ancestors, and yeah,
we're you know, we are supposed to to learn from
those from those stories. Otherwise they wouldn't have been been
written down, Otherwise they wouldn't have been regarded as so important.

(43:27):
But yeah, you know, they're they're I mean, they're not
necessarily instructions, but they're they're guidelines. Is like, if you
want to honor the gods, if you want to be
a honorable man, honorable woman, according to you know, to
the gods, this is what you should be doing. But

(43:48):
it's it's it's still kind of leaving the the choice
up to you. Like, of course it's preferable if if
you do, but if you don't, hey, you know, that's
that's a to you and the consequences are you know,
for yourself as well.

Speaker 6 (44:03):
That that reminds me what I'm going to say. The
key phrase being a proof is in the pudding type
of thing. Is like, if a given story, your set
of stories, or let's say one story describes a true thing,
and you can use that information to successfully navigate a
similar situation in your own life and come out of
it with the best possible outcome, even if that outcome

(44:23):
is tragic because it can't be avoided. Maybe you minimize
the damage that kind of thing, or you avoid a
problem because you saw it coming. And that's you know,
I'm probably most familiarly familiar, as I say, with the
Greeks and Greek myths and Christian stuff. So you take
the idea of something like Noah in the flood, and
it's like, Okay, was there ever a man, one man
named Noah and he walked with God and God told

(44:46):
him to build a boat, and then a flood came?
I fuck if I know. I mean, I think probably
the younger, driest impact theory about you know, twelve thousand
years ago destroyed hit somewhere I think in the Atlantic
and then swamped Atlantis, swamp the civilization that was in
the Mediterranean that at the time, which we had then
leftover vestiges of that made it into Egyptian myth, Greek myth,

(45:08):
and Biblical lore. Of course, long story short. So, but
is it true that you are a man going through
life who's trying to say, walk with God and if
they describe God as the Way, the Truth and the
life and all that kind of stuff. So if you're
trying to follow the doo, live in harmony with the
world around you, paying attention to your footsteps as you're

(45:29):
moving forward and what's likely coming on the horizon. You're
in the best possible position to say, I see a
problem is about to confront me. I can get ready
for it before it gets here. That preparedness will help
me survive better. And not only that, it'll help my
friends and family survive with me, because I'm in a
better position to help them. So is it real, whether

(45:52):
or not it ever happened? I think yes. I think
stories are valuable to the degree that they describe a
true phenomenon that gives you useful information for the best
possible outcome, so that the proof isn't the pudding type
of thing. So if your stories that you find meaningful
give you insights into human nature and human struggles and
how to overcome particular obstacles, how to how to walk

(46:14):
in the world in a way that honors the gods
so that they smile upon you and smooth the way
forward for you, I think it's very real. I think
even you know, even fake gods, if they serve that purpose,
it's as real as anything, which which is an interesting
thing that's all about how you describe real and fake.
You know, what's is something that never happened, nonetheless still real.

(46:35):
I think so, which I mean? I don't know how
to reconcile these live with a lot of contradictions in
my head that just I don't think can.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
Necessarily be resolved.

Speaker 6 (46:43):
Which one is it? Yes, it is both.

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Speaker 6 (48:45):
I love that. I love that Yin Yang too. It's
like we're all, you know, comprised of opposites in a
lot of ways, and they just have to coexist. This
is just one of those things. Yeah, no, it doesn't
make sense. Yes, that's the way it is. Deal with it.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Yeah, no, absolutely, And I think you're you know, you're
definitely making about the point, like it doesn't matter whether
you know the stories are literal, you know, literal, allegorical, metaphorical,
it doesn't matter. Like it's about the teachings, you know,
it's about like what do you do with those stories?
What do you do you know, with the with the

(49:17):
characters and the you know, the shit that they go through.
What lessons are you taking out of them?

Speaker 6 (49:22):
And we can get that from pure fantasy novels like
Lord of the Rings. I mean, no one has to
believe Gandalf and Frodo ever went on a on an adventure,
but they can read the story and see things that
not just entertain but in form and kind of give
a perspective on more than anything, gives us people to
aspire to emulate in that way of like, you know,
I want to be more like this guy because he
did things that I thought, I mean, what why? And

(49:45):
it's universal I think ninety I'd say like ninety eight
ninety nine percent of people at least get a little
reclemped at that scene at the end where Eric Garn
takes a knee and says, no, my friends, no one
bows to you.

Speaker 5 (49:59):
Ah.

Speaker 6 (50:00):
I know you're feeling it with I got the chills.
That's well, there's another scene like that this I get
the same feeling from you. Remember the Toby Maguire Spider Man.
I think it was part two. Doctor Octopus was up
part one I don't remember, but he was saving the
train full of people and he exhausted himself and he
passed out and was about to fall, and they caught it,

(50:21):
and they brought him in and they passed him, hand
over him and get a kid his age whoa, And
I'm like, I'm getting Oliver clamped against that heroic moment,
that thing where you've done something amazing and people truly
appreciate it, they truly get it, and they give you
the proper respect for that thing. And then so what
should we draw lesson should we be? Well, the lesson
I draw from this, I want to do things that

(50:43):
make the people around me feel like that towards me,
you know. And it's hard to save the world. The
world is seven billion people, and it's millions of miles around,
or however, thousands of miles around I don't even know,
millions of miles to the sun, thousands of miles around
on the earth a lot in circumference, I think is
I've forgotten, but it's ten thousands of miles something like that. Anyway,

(51:05):
So you've got to then, Okay, well, how can I
do this in a realistic and practical way, Well, just
the people in my life. And number one, I take
care of meat as best I can so that I'm
in good shape to take care of my wife and
vice versa. But then we try to construct our life
in a way that makes us able to help others,
and you get this ripple in the pond. I mean
so many fantastic analogies. You know, be the ripple in

(51:27):
the pond so that your actions spread out and positively
impact other people. The funny thing about that is it's
one of those truthings like, you are the ripple in
the pond either way, So make sure your actions are
not bad because that is going to ripple also, so
it might be interesting to your eyes are like, what
was the question I had in my head a moment ago?

(51:47):
It's like, what makes what makes a person or what
kind of person needs a story to be true in
order to feel like it's real? And the thought that
occurred to me is like, well, we don't want to
invest our belief in things we know to be false.
We have kind of a human inclination against it. Well,
if it's not true, why would I believe it? So
we kind of want to believe that the things we
believe are true, that they actually did happen. And maybe

(52:10):
it's a different kind of individual like myself or I
don't know, who doesn't need things to be real in
order to be true. Or maybe most people have never
come across that idea before. I think Jordan Peterson has
been popularizing that idea lately, is you know, I think
he would agree with me, or he would also say,
it doesn't matter whether it ever happened, it's about the

(52:31):
story itself. It's about the truth of the story. Yeah,
And I think that's in a way, that's kind of
what we do when we're giving analogies by way of
example to prove some argumentative point. We're making it up.
We're saying, what if this happened, you see the scenario
and how it turned out. Well, that's what I'm talking about.
People have and maybe there's a certain type of person

(52:54):
that really can't grasp argument by analogy either, and they'd
be a very concrete type of individuals, like, but that
didn't happen, Like yeah, it's just a what if it's
just a furg Well then if what if what nothing happened?
That's not don't do that. I've actually come across people
like that that are just they kind of Okay, I
have to take a different attack if I want to
communicate with this. It's not it's not all the time,

(53:15):
and I don't do a lot of online arguing anywhere
outside of Twitter.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
There's not enough to be argued on Twitter.

Speaker 6 (53:21):
Right. You can find an argument about anything if you're
looking for it. It keywords, some stuff.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
That's why I stay away from the platform as much
as possible.

Speaker 6 (53:28):
Really, yeah, I argue less with certain people. Like if
I make a point and someone comes back with an
irrelevant response that's kind of insulting. I just respond with
the jiff that says, understandable, have a great day, They're
not gonna whatever. That's so annoying. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
When people do that, that's so fucking bad.

Speaker 6 (53:46):
I mean, I'm I.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
I am a millennial, but I I at certain times
just like very much like to give them just the
boomer thumbs up.

Speaker 6 (53:56):
There you go, the kid at the nineties computer.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Or yeah, that's that's even better.

Speaker 6 (54:02):
Just oh yeah, one of one of my favorites. Well, well,
that that expression and that that thumbs up and makes
me think of I think his name's Chao Yun Fat
and he's playing in some Chinese eight nineteen eighties police
drama and he's in a wheelie chair and he pops
around a corner. He's chewing on some food. He's like
like whatever, whatever, dude, you do you cool story?

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Bro? Yeah?

Speaker 6 (54:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like there's just I think I've learned
lately who is or is not worth arguing with sometimes?
You know, it used to be I would argue with
anybody about anything because I was searching. And then once
I started finding answers, then I stopped arguing with people
about the things that I think I've got to handle on.

(54:45):
And now I just say certain things that I think
are true and people agree or disagree, you know. So
sometimes I'm just thinking out loud, and sometimes I'm responding
to try and add perspective, and and it's and then
I try to was a divorce my sell from the results.
It's like I have done everything I can by saying this.
You agree, you don't. You get it, you don't. It's

(55:06):
nothing I can do about that. But I felt like
it needed to be said, which is a great thing too.
There's a phrase that I it was a poem or
something someone came up with years ago. It's like, before interacting, engaging,
or responding to a certain thing, ask yourself three questions.
Does this need to be said? Is this what I'm

(55:26):
about to say need to be said? Is this just
some reason behind it? Does this need to be said
by me? Maybe someone else can handle it better. Maybe
I wait, maybe I'm not the one to say it. Whatever,
And the third question is does this need to be
said by right now? Is this the right time and
place and forum for interaction to engage with this? So,

(55:47):
I mean, I think if more people ask themselves those questions.
And it's a wonderful, wonderfully poetic composition to it as well,
does this need to be said by me? Does this
need to be said by me? Or does this need
to be said buy me right now? It's like a
three part anyway, I fucked it up already, but you
I get it. I get it. It's kind of that's
a very viraly mimetic idea as well, and I think

(56:10):
that's why humans love our aphorisms. That's actually I've got
a I've got a lot of books I'm probably never
going to get around to writing, but one of them
is a Wizard's Guide to the aspirational aphorism, and the
purpose of it would be to take things where So
I would start with something simple like page one, whatever
is an apple a day keeps the doctor away? Now
wait a minute, let's look at all the ways, all

(56:30):
the things. This doesn't mean apples. Doctors are not afraid
of apples, like vampires are afraid of a cross. That's
not what it means. So we go through that, through
that kind of stuff, and it's like, so, wait a minute,
apples are healthy for you, but just eating apples keeps
you out of the doctor's office. No, if you ate
nothing but apples, you would probably develop some other nutritional deficits.
It's not a healthy Okay, that's not what it means it,

(56:52):
So let's reduce it to what it is is if
you pay attention to your health, if you eat healthy
number one, you're going to be less sick later on. So,
and there's a lot of people that they they find
the they challenge those aphorisms like yeah, but there's an exception,
like if there's always an exception, that's that's.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
Not recommentative people, you know, the actually like those guys.

Speaker 6 (57:18):
Who they are guy, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I'm like,
you're not wrong, but that's really and then you then
you throw up the jeff missing the point as it
flies overhead.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Yeah yeah, no exactly. I see those those people a lot.
You know, we had one the other day in the roundtable,
I'm often on with Bush Whisper Shaman, you know, like
he took one comma. Then it's like, so nobody's gonna
question this if you all think it's normal that this

(57:48):
person does that. And he's like, bro, that's that's not
that's not what it's about. You know, you're looking to argue.
You're looking to, you know, like make the life at
end the life round table, because we see the chat happening.
You're trying to make it about you. It's not about
you walk Hof Yeah.

Speaker 6 (58:07):
Yeah, And I'm unfortunately, I think I've probably been that
guy in the past when I'm trying to when I
have been seeking to better understand what those aphorisms actually mean. Yeah,
I've been to the get go wait a minute, that
doesn't really cover all bases, like yeah, but it's then
I had to personally get to a point where I
was like, okay, but it's true for most cases. And
then also the idea of like there are some people

(58:29):
who are like, you know, I say, oh, here's the rule,
here's what generally happens. Here's like it covers you know,
ninety eight ninety nine percent of cases, and someone says
not all, so it's not really a rule. I'm like,
in my then this is It took me a long
time to understand this phrase too. The exception proves the rule,
and I'm like, wait a minute. If there's exceptions, then
it's not a rule. No, No, it's it's it's a
contradiction that exists together and both things are true. Exception

(58:53):
to a rule is typically extraordinary, an outlier for a reason.
There's some way they don't fit a tip pattern. So
the pattern exists just because the edge might be a
little fuzzy and there might be a few people that
fall outside, that doesn't mean the pattern is not there.
It doesn't mean it's not ubiquitous. It doesn't mean it's
not probably good advice for as I say, ninety nine

(59:13):
to ninety eight percent of people. And then you get
around you know, so this is one situation where we
got to see, you know, what's right for you as well.
So for me being a parent, having kids not the
right thing to do. Never did it, never wanted to.
The whole idea terrified me, not just for my own sake, like, oh,
I don't want to give them my comfy lifestyle, but
I'm going to mess up a kid. There's no way
I'm gonna do that, right, So I'm just not going
to make a kid that I mess up. And I'm

(59:35):
not blaming you know, a lot of people go, oh god,
how is your relationship with their parents? But they're great people,
they did a good job. I don't blame them for anything.
I'm just looking at like, I can't do this. That
is beyond my capacity. And I had to be honest
about that for you know, because I I was thinking
of you know, I'm twelve, thirteen, fifteen, and I'm starting
to learn, oh, you know, eventually I'm going to be
an adult and adults get married and have kids, and
do I want that? Should I do that? And my

(59:57):
decision was no. But I consider myself to be that
exception that proves the rule of like, Okay, if you're
someone like me, maybe this is not for you, But
for ninety eight ninety nine percent all the other humans
on the globe, you probably want to get married, have kids,
and that's your meaning of life, and that's your your
ticket to the best possible fulfilling purpose in life, even

(01:00:18):
if there's exceptions like me, and hey, maybe you're an
exception too. Probably not there was the chance that I
probably was not an exception either. I had to really
wrestle with the idea and then come around to that idea.
So yeah, that's that's what I get to with these
these aphorisms. You know, it's like, you know, you can't
think of any others, but you've got to be interested
in figuring out why it's generally correct, and then you

(01:00:38):
can identify the outliers and exceptions, and then that helps
you find out, well, am I one of the exceptions
or not?

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
But anyway, yeah, yeah, never wanted to be a father,
so you just took in.

Speaker 6 (01:00:50):
A bunch of cats instead, pretty much.

Speaker 5 (01:00:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:00:53):
No, I still have a you know, lots of you know,
love and compassion to give, and I still you know,
hope to mitigate the suffering of creatures that are around me.
And you know, I don't you know this. And that's
the other thing too, is people get really hung up
on some of their specific beliefs and they're like, well,
if you don't want what I want, then there's something
wrong with you. I'm like, well, sure you could say
this something wrong with Yeah, maybe, and maybe I was

(01:01:13):
born with something wrong that made me terrified of you know,
damaging a human when everybody's scared, and you just kind
of do it anyway because you should. There's a kind
of enough multiply thing. You know, there's a commandment in
there ish not actually one of the Ten commandments, but
still anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
I mean, I I am a I am a father.
I have a you know, I have two kids, well
three if you if you count firefight her son as well.
I trying the best that I can from a distance. Yeah,
being a parent is absolutely fucking terrifying because you know,
you you find out that you know, your parents too,

(01:01:54):
had no idea nobody was hell they were doing. They
know to feed you, they know to clothe you, they
know to clean you, they know that try not to
drop you on your head. Yeah, for example, although I
guess with some people, you know, it happens. Yeah, and
so I thought may have been being dropped on their
hat as well.

Speaker 6 (01:02:15):
That's true. I hit rock, sliding glass doors. I probably
get a lot of head trauma for as a kid.
None of it my parents fault.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
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Speaker 6 (01:05:08):
Most of it may be one, okay, one example, I
was like five years old. Maybe my parents are like,
let's go to the Hoover det. Well, my dad mostly
my mom's kind of comes along. It's like, so, my
dad's an engineer, the civil designs towers. When so he's
got a big fascination with the Hoover Dam, huge magnificent project,
and he wanted to take his kid to go see it.
And well what do I do. I'm a little shit
and they're calling me as I run away, looking back

(01:05:31):
over my shoulder, laughing at them like haha, I can't
get me. I turned around just in time to go
face first into a giant rock and not bloody, bloody forehead,
crying and all that stuff, And they probably felt terrible.
Why couldn't I save my son? For it was entirely
my fault. It was a stupid kid playing games when
I shouldn't have and got myself hurt, and you know,

(01:05:53):
less just like that of like, okay, God, if I
had a kid like that, I would just die. I
would just I would have a heart attack. I mean
that being I couldn't sleep from constant anxiety. I mean's
just this is gonna be horrible. So and sometimes you
just do it anyway. You're like, this is no, this
is important enough, This is what I should do, This
is what I feel cold to do. And definitely, by
all means, I'm not an anti natalist, even even if

(01:06:13):
I kind of used to be. But that's a whole
nother kettle of fish. Not anymore. I'm like, I do
it stochcatay.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Yeah, people kids like at the same time, you know,
look at that that you know baby in your arms.
He is he is totally your baby. You know he's
your baby now?

Speaker 6 (01:06:30):
Yeah, he is. I just need them to kind of
take care of themselves. Mostly this. I'm not even a
dog person because they need too much tension, Like I
can't yuh, the only dog you know, you might have
seen it in the past. I had that little little
white dog, Peanut. He would sit in my lap sometimes.
He mean you may or met it.

Speaker 7 (01:06:44):
Well.

Speaker 6 (01:06:44):
He passed a while ago. He had a he had
issues and he had to go. So I hope you're okay.
It's neither it's okay, It's okay. I'll keep I'll keep
telling a story here, even even him. I mean, I
found myself thinking of him the other day of like,
if he was still here, I would need to work
about letting him out in the snow and bringing him
back in and making sure, you know, he was okay
and was he able to go to the bathroom? Does

(01:07:07):
you know are the raccoons out there in the dark.
Just just that level. So I don't even want a dog.
That level of responsibility is just too much, too to
anxiety provoking for me. So, oh my god, having kids,
I don't think I could do it. I don't even
know if I could say taking a you know, an
adopted kid or something even one that was a little

(01:07:27):
bit older and a little more self. You know, you
don't have to wipe their butt, but you got to
make sure they're getting their homework done, that kind of thing,
And I should know if I can handle that. I
thought about what am I saying. I've thought about doing that,
Like do I have a say, maybe a social or
human responsibility to say, you know, to taking a kid
that didn't have a house, he's living in foster care
and you know, or an orphan or something like that.

(01:07:49):
And part of me wants to wants to be that
kind of a hero in a way. And that's another
thing about our hero Our concept of heroics has little
got a little screwed up. I think we think of,
you know, someone's only a hero if they you know,
have spider powers or a cape and they fly, or
the strength of hercules. I'm like, well, these these heroes

(01:08:11):
were set up as as aspirational figures. Sure, but it's
it's what was it? I saw some of you speaking
of cats of what there was a was it cats
or was kids? There was a a guy that like
a pizza delivery guy or something like that uber driver
or something that ran into a burning house, and I
think it was a kid saved a kid and then

(01:08:33):
heard there was another one trapped in there, went back
and did it a second time and jumped out the
second story window. Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean that's a hero.
That's just a dude absolutely responded in the situation. Didn't
have the strength of hercules, he wasn't invulnerable to fire.
That's that's even more impressive in my mind. You've got
someone literally just weak but determined. I think that's that's

(01:08:56):
a That's a big trope in anime too, And I
think it's on purpose. How do these story reason are
what is it? It's the hero's journey, it is it
is very much. Yeah, yeah, and it's you know, so
you get the call to adventure. You know, you've made
it into the special school for gifted kids or whatever.
And maybe some of them have powers and whatnot, and sure,
but what I'm not trying to say, it's the idea

(01:09:17):
of someone who maybe even isn't special, talented, powerful, any
of those things, but they have a strong drive to
do what's right and they've got that determination to see
it through. And that those kind of themes show up
and animate a lot of the person you know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
Yeah, yeah, no's that's all about like sacrifice and self
sacrifice as well. You know, to have a strong drive,
to have a strong will is to sacrifice the insecurity,
to sacrifice the thoughts of what may happen for just
fighting for the desired outcome. And that's what that Uber

(01:09:56):
delivery guy. I've seen the story. I have no idea
who it is, but you know, on the the odd
chances that you are watching now, the odd chance that
you are listening, Bro, you are a fucking hero, don't.
I don't want to tell you anything else.

Speaker 6 (01:10:08):
Well, and then you ask him and he'll be like,
I did I'm not a hero, and that's pretty common
of heroes. It's like, this is I don't even see
myself in that way. I don't. I don't feel better
than I think I am because I did this. They
just needed to be done.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
So let's let's take that. You know, we were talking
about people, you know, the the actually and the what ifs.
Let's take that from Let's take that, you know that
that comment from the other side, what if he did?

Speaker 5 (01:10:35):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
Agnowlan's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm a hero. I know
I'm a hero. Does that still make him, you know,
a hero if he has the well, let's say that
the blown up ego, you know, the or what is
its homelander? Is that is that kind of a I've
never I haven't seen that.

Speaker 6 (01:10:56):
Did you watch The Boys? Or no?

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
No, no, I I don't.

Speaker 6 (01:11:00):
I mean I kinda the villain. So and he does
have an inflated sense of ego, but they also explain
his childhood and how he ended up that way and
it's not his fault, but still shits. It's a really
good it's a really good series. The latest season was
a little Man but that's okay, but.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
Like, what if he It's a fair point though, like, yeah,
he is a hero for doing that, but as a hero,
like aren't you kind of supposed to say, like, you know,
it was nothing, it was just you know, I think
we liked I did it because I don't even know
why I did it, Like it was just an instantaneous response,
a reaction like I saw someone in trouble, I knew

(01:11:38):
there was trouble. I just went out and do it.

Speaker 6 (01:11:40):
I were moving just did Yeah. Yeah. I think there's
a bit of a trope again of the quintessential hero
also being humble and saying no, no, no thanks are necessary, no,
no parades, no, no glory. I don't really think I'm
all that great. We kind of like that he's humble too.

(01:12:01):
But if you know, if someone did something heroic and
someone said you're a hero, and he's like, you're right,
I am. That was pretty damn heroic. I'm proud of myself.
I don't think that takes anything from it. I think
that's actually kind of funny. I mean, I said it
in a funny way intentionally because I'm not even comfortable
taking that idea seriously. I think I think we want
humility in the hero as well, so that kind of

(01:12:23):
colors what we expect in a way. But I don't
think it actually takes anything away from from the from
the act for the person to then have a realistic
appraisal of it, going yeah, yeah, maybe I should tell
people I'm a hero and that that this is a
heroic thing to do, and that, you know what, they
should do it too, and if you want to be
a hero, you should be like me, I did a
heroic thing. Yeah. That that does sit so uncomfortably though,

(01:12:46):
because it's like maybe it's a Western thing as well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):
Maybe it is because I, ah, just yesterday, yesterday evening,
I started watching you know, like speaking of you know,
the Great Gods, and I started watching Hercules the legendary.

Speaker 6 (01:13:03):
Journeys with Oh those were fun back.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
In the day.

Speaker 6 (01:13:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like the off Xena and then
Hercules and Zina got together in some episodes. I watched
all that shit in the nineties, I did.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
I mean, I have, like I can't remember like snippets
of it. I don't think I've ever watched a full episode,
but I you know, just see everybody who's absolutely lyric
about it, like, oh, that was so good, and like
now I'm watching it and the cgi is absolutely fucking horrendous.

Speaker 6 (01:13:32):
Oh it's terrible. And if you're growing up at all,
they really were for kind of kids and teenagers in
a way. Yeah, but it's a little campy and goofy
and it's silly and that makes it fun too. You
get some of the over the top characters like Aries
I think was in there, and he was you know,
he's got this long dark hair and his beard or
mustache or whatever. It was very full of himself.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
Like I'm still like finishing up a season one, like
they're forty five minutes episodes is pretty long.

Speaker 6 (01:14:00):
Actually yeah, they were hour long with commercials of forty
five minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
Again yeah, yeah, uh for sure. The the what is
it the Toga salesman from Believe like episodes to episode three.
He's a goofy character. He's kind of like the annoying
sidekick character. But that that makes it fun. But where

(01:14:24):
I was going with this, it's like I noticed that
in the in the show, it's like he knows he's Hercules.
Everyone knows who Hercules is, even if they you know,
don't necessarily know. You know, he is is Hercules. So
what does he do the things that he does well

(01:14:45):
because he's Hercules and that is what you know, what
is expected of him. Well, you know, he's still you know,
he still saves the day. He still saves you know,
the king or the damsel into stress or the kids.
You know, so he is still a hero at the

(01:15:06):
end of the day, or you know, make sure that
somebody else triumphs, making him kind of the hero but
the other guy, the victor, if you will. But does
that make him less in any way? Like he knows
he's a hero, he knows his Hercules, he knows what's
expected of him. That's why he does it. You know,

(01:15:28):
it's not out of the kindness of its heart, of
his hearts. I mean, I'm sure that that plays a
part in it as well. I'm not, you know, really
up on my great mythology, but it's like, yeah, I'm Hercules,
I'm the son of Zeus. I'm a hero. I have
like divine strength and will and allso this is what

(01:15:51):
I am supposed to do. It's not, you know, the
the like. In contrast to the example that we just mentioned,
it sounds very heroic. Is like, oh, yeah, it's my
you know, it's my job really to be a hero.

Speaker 6 (01:16:08):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's interesting too, because then we think
of our say, you know, firemen specifically, because that guy
ran to the house, and when the firemen wouldn't, they're like,
that's dangerous, we can't. It's you know, our our policies
and procedures say, when a house is that engulfed, you
don't go running. Anga's pregg going to die or get injured.
And we don't require that. We want them to be

(01:16:28):
able to live to fight another fire. We don't want
people sacrificing their lives if it can be helped, you know,
when it comes down to something like that. But to's
going somewhere with that. I what I was the thought
that came to my mind was the idea of the
functional utility. Why would an idea persevere and why would
it be endorsed? So the humility of the hero to say, oh, no,

(01:16:51):
I'm not a hero, it's just what I do. I
think the purpose of that is to make it a
part of the story that you don't get a big head.
You don't start thinking you're entitled the special treatment, even
if maybe you kind of are. Maybe you get a parade,
maybe you get a little reward, but you know, you
should also be humble about that because other stories show

(01:17:14):
us how heroes go wrong by becoming egomaniacs and then
they turn to the villain. So it's like, wait a minute,
how do you prevent that. Well, you keep your humble
you keep your humility. So I think we I think
we like that. It feels good because we're like, Okay,
here's a person who's worth praise, worthy of praise, but
they're not gonna let it go to their head and

(01:17:35):
turn them into a monster. That's the best way to
avoid that. And that's I think that's I think that's
the purpose. It just occurred to be.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
Sure, I mean, I'm open to That's where we get
the the well known phrase, you know, you either die
your hero or every long enough to see yourself become
the villain, right. Sure, it's you know, it's true, and
it's it's hard to stay humble, you know, especially when
you're you know, becoming more well known and the praise

(01:18:02):
gets more or you know, more people start to praise you.

Speaker 6 (01:18:07):
You got a million people telling you how awesome you
are here like, you know, maybe I'm pretty awesome. Yeah,
you know, Like I don't think I ever wont a
million followers like anywhere ever. Ever, I don't want to
be that. I don't want to be I want to
be successful. I don't necessarily want to be famous. That's
kind of what I'm shooting for.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
It's their, hm, can you be one without the other?

Speaker 6 (01:18:29):
I don't know, that's I mean, I just assume you
when you went hmm, I'm like, you know what, You're right,
you didn't even have to say it. I'm like, maybe
they go together. Uh, maybe that's the only way for
you know, good because a hero comes well, that's ok okay.
So there's there is the act of heroism, and that
defines a hero as well, but there's also an element

(01:18:51):
of renown. There's that idea of becoming then well known
for this act of heroism. And I suppose the only way,
the only way to avoid that totally is and I'm
not even sure if Batman's a good example of it,
but he just kind of dips in and the dark
does this thing and gets the hell out. He doesn't

(01:19:12):
show up for parades, he doesn't take praise. Well, that's
all part of his you know, his psychology, that kind
of thing. Don't tell me what a good job by,
tell me where the next bad guy is. I got
I got work to do. I'm not I get time
for that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
I mean, I guess Batman and both Superman to take
you know, the the two main.

Speaker 6 (01:19:29):
Ones and then Wonder Woman, the Holy Trinity as they say.

Speaker 2 (01:19:33):
Sure, yeah, yeah, like all those you know, like the yeah,
I mean, I guess there are the Big Three, if you.

Speaker 6 (01:19:39):
Will, the Big Three. Yeah. I just threw him in
there because there's actually a there's actually a book I think,
which is about them.

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
They all live double lives, you know, they're not Yeah,
like full time hero if you will. It's a good
thing to think of with the secret identity thing. It's
not just protecting the ones around you so that villains
don't target your family, but but it's also one way
to keep yourself humble. Is like most interactions you have
with people as your alter egos, secret identity, they don't

(01:20:07):
treat you like anything special, and you're like, Okay, this
is what normal human interactions are like. And yeah, I
gotta deal with the praise when I'm in the suit,
but otherwise I could just be me and be normal.
I think that would be That reminds me of another thing. Futurama.
They had an episode where Bender is floating in space
and he gets a whole colony of microbes that turn

(01:20:27):
into a civilization, and then lotcheaks at each other. Some
of them live on his ass, some of them live
on his Shelly. Yes, it's hilarious. And what he does
is at the very end, he speaks with what appeared
to be flashing stars and it has a deep voice
and it's very understanding, sympathetic and a bit wry, you know,

(01:20:47):
And so he gets the I don't know how it
comes about, buddy, but the flashing, flashing stars that are
speaking to him, shoot him back across the galaxy. Oh sure,
I can do that if you want.

Speaker 6 (01:20:57):
Go home. And then the last thing it says is
that you know, if you do it just right, no
one will be sure you've done anything at all.

Speaker 2 (01:21:04):
I love that.

Speaker 6 (01:21:05):
I kind of love that. That idea of that's like
the ultimate and humility in a way is like, I'm
only concerned with the outcome. I don't care if anyone
knows I did it. And as much as I don't
live up to that, I would like to. I'd like
to be that kind of person that is absolutely so
divorced from praise that it doesn't even matter. The problem
with that, then is you, in some ways get divorced

(01:21:27):
from criticism, which you kind of need to because nobody's perfect.
And how do you figure out if you're screwing up
when you can't see it, Well, someone's got to tell you.
So maybe if you are literally a god, then you
don't need criticism, but most humans do fair enough. But
then then there's a whole other level. I'm just rambling now,
but the idea of we are designed to take evolutionary

(01:21:49):
psychology style, We're designed to take criticism from immediate compatriots
or friends in a small group setting. We know you,
we saw what happened. Here's feedback directly from us, because
we're the people most affected. But then you get the Internet,
and now you've got people who just disagree with an
idea and they're going to come at you like a

(01:22:11):
nuclear missile and try and destroy your entire life because
they hate you because you believe something they don't. And
now you've got maybe thousands of those people sending you messages,
and people are more motivated to send a message of
critique than they are a message of praise, So you
get a skewed feedback loop from So you may have
a million followers, but you get a thousand messages a
day telling you, you know, kys, You're like, wow, people

(01:22:34):
really hate me.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
No.

Speaker 6 (01:22:35):
No, A very small minority of people who don't even
know you have mean things to say. And I don't
know how I would react to that. I mean, I
get responses from people that are rude, you know, not
that many, and I shine it on and I'm rude
back to them and will screw you too. Buddy. I'm
not your buddy, pal Joe Pal buddy, right, the flapy heads.

(01:22:56):
I love that, but I have no idea how I
would deal with it. Say if I hit or Peterson's
level of fame and acclaim and criticism, he's no wonder
he you know, went on meds and ended up in
a hospital, and I probably would do a champlain or yeah,
or you know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:11):
You you turn into a host. The other the other guy,
I forget his name, Like they're always mentioned in the
same breath, another psychology commentator or a philosophy guy.

Speaker 6 (01:23:24):
Maybe you think of Sam Harris.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
But.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
He's like the shadow side, like he's in the Red Pill,
the former cake boxer.

Speaker 6 (01:23:36):
Thinking about Andrew Tate, Yeah that, yeah, like either you're
kind of kind of defending him a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
No, But I think like those are really like polar opposites.

Speaker 6 (01:23:48):
You know, it's like taking again was nothing like Peterson.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
You become you become the other. I mean they're both
like in the the you know, self help, sure, the psychology,
you know, here's how you're you know, how you're a man.
You know, the one guy says, you know, just clean
your clean your room, bucco, and the other guy says, well,
you know, go be a pimp.

Speaker 6 (01:24:09):
Yeah, for sure, or at least to have a strong
pimpand one way or another. Yeah. Then you also get
into things like what did Dates say the other day?
He said something like any man who only has children
with one woman is not really a top level alpha
or whatever. It's like, I'm misquoting him, So don't don't
you know, and don't and I don't endorse that advice necessarily,
But there is something to where you an exception to

(01:24:30):
the rule type of thing like I was talking about before.
It like Eloney, percent of people on the entire planet
should have one relationship with one person with whom they
have kids and stay married to for their entire life.
And then you got guys like Elon. Okay, if you
are an Elon Musk. It's not that it's good to

(01:24:51):
have thirteen different baby mamas or or however many there are,
but with thirteen different kids with different women. But he
can do that in a way that I can't. You can't,
nobody can. I mean, he can kind of pull it off,
even if it is an ideal and I and I
don't endorse go knock up a bunch of women. But
then there's the but. But that's what Andrew Tatus speaking
to he's speaking to that idea of if you're a Tait,

(01:25:12):
if you're a Musk, you can do that, and that
that's actually a sign of Yeah, I guess that's that's
not not something to aspire to. But what am I
trying to say? It's something you can get away with
that other people can't exactly. They can mitigate, they can
deal with the consequences of that. They can provide for
thirteen kids. Yeah, even even if it's better that they
were in the house and a father to those kids individually,

(01:25:33):
maybe he needs to start like a like a like
a cult compound where all his kids together. He just
needs to convert to Mormonism. And he's good.

Speaker 2 (01:25:43):
Convert to Mormonism, moved to Utah. I mean, Mormonism is
it's you know, it's a cold as fuck anyway.

Speaker 6 (01:25:48):
Most religions are. Yeah, that's it's very weird. You look
at the root of words, and cult is the root
word of culture. It is what we all believe in,
how we all behave in this group, and we we've
you know, words have the denotative meaning. It's it's just
it is what it is. It's a small group of
people that share a common belief and practice neutrally. That's

(01:26:09):
not the direct definition, but then you get the the
denote or connotative meaning, which we think of a cult
as weird, dysfunctional counter to to to positive psychological practices.
A lot of things going to occult practices is how
to know you're in a cult type of thing. They
cut you off from your friends and family, They make
you behave in strange ways, they put pressure, they love
bomb you and withdraw. There's a lot of manipulative tactics

(01:26:31):
that go into to that connotative meaning of what a
cult is cult bad, we'd say not necessarily. I mean,
Christianity was a cult back when it was brand new
and it became a worldwide religions anything. You know, Islam
was a cult for a minute until it conquered half
the Middle East, you know. So cult is just kind
of the the Hoddler form of a what could become

(01:26:52):
a religion if it spreads, if it's you know.

Speaker 2 (01:26:54):
Anyway, But that's that's ah, that's a good one that
way before and I never thought about it like that.

Speaker 6 (01:27:04):
Well, like I was probably the Norse gods before it
became more and more prolific, you know, And those were
the early adopters, the people who kind of figured out
the stories or pulled them together from other bits of wisdom.
That's what I think the Bible is too, is like
a lot of leftover stuff from Atlantis from and here's
a weird I've now mentioned that twice. There's a conception

(01:27:28):
among the I also feel like I cut you off. Sorry,
did you want to finish your thought? Or oh no,
you're okay, all right, we'll talk about Atlantis for a second.
It's a weird thing. I usually I didn't used to believe,
and I used to poo poo it, and still I
don't believe in the straw man version of it. Well,
there was an island and they had all flying cars
and free energy, and they had all this. I don't
know if they had any of that shit. I think

(01:27:49):
there was a free historic in a way civilization that
was destroyed by a great flood. And that's where we
get the floods stores. And it wasn't like specifically an
island that then sank under the waves. If you look
at the way it was described in Plato or Aristotle
or Socrates, who yeah, whoever talked about it the most.

(01:28:13):
It was a civilization swallowed by the sea, which would
comport with a giant tsunami smashing through flooding, a group
of people living together in the Mediterranean that had more
than Stone age technology whatever, that would be sure, the
flying cars, not energy batteries and shooting lightning bolts out

(01:28:34):
of their fingers, and it's nothing magic like that. A
lot of people go to the straw end version and say, well,
that never happened. I'm like you, you're right, that never happened,
and that's not what I'm talking about. So you get
guys like you know, Graham Hancock, and he's poop pooed
with this idea. Is like, you mean, civilization couldn't have existed,
and then a meteor sends a tidal wave and it
got wiped out. Long story short, I think a lot

(01:28:55):
of what made it into collected volumes of wisdom like
the Bible and like other stories, is leftovers that weren't
that fully formed back then. But that then evolved into
the stories we have today, and they tightened and and
they used less words, and they used less and they
were more direct and to the point. And the other
thing I was gonna say too, way way way back

(01:29:16):
when we're starting all this stuff too, is that there's
a reason we like getting the or the there's a
reason it's so effective to have stories in stories, to
have to have wisdom or information communicated in that style,
whether or not a specific person ever actually lived. You
make it more personal, like, hey, here's a guy, he's
just like you. Here's the situation he was in. You

(01:29:38):
might encounter this situation. Here's what he did, and here's
the consequences. And sometimes this is where you get some
people who are like the anti theist crowd. They're like, oh, yeah,
well what about the parts of the Bible where they
did bad things. I'm like, well, that was bad, and
you should learn from those stories too. Maybe you don't
want to be that guy doing that thing because look
how it turned out for him. That's not so good,
and look how he hurt people around him. So yeah,

(01:29:59):
it's not all an instruction booklet of examples to follow.
It is very often examples not to follow. And I'm
it's not there because I'm out of words, but.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
But no, I mean those are all my thoughts.

Speaker 6 (01:30:09):
Yeah, yeah. Cautionary Tales Grimm's Fairy Tales Full of them.
That's another book I hope to write some days, A
Wizard's Guide to Grimm's fairy Tales. What do these stories
actually mean? What is Hansel and Gretel about?

Speaker 2 (01:30:20):
I mean, yeah, there's that's I mean, you know, as
a European, as a Germanic European, you know, that's how
we preserved a lot of the stories of our ancestors.
It's how we preserved a lot of the stories of
the lance. We wrote them or weave them into these,
you know, fantastical stories. But again, you know, there are

(01:30:40):
lessons in those. Did have something Gretel really exists? Did
they get lost in the woods and fight, found a
gingerbread house and all of that.

Speaker 6 (01:30:47):
No one expects them to have really existed. Isn't that
funny too? They're like, the story is still meaningful, even
if that's pure fiction exactly. Then they look at other
religious texts and they're like, no, no, it has to
be real, it has to be Yeah, you know, are
we comparing the grim Tales to the Bible?

Speaker 2 (01:31:03):
Are we on that level of heresy?

Speaker 6 (01:31:07):
Yeah? Yeah, I think I am cool. I think they
both now now they I think it would be fascinating
and I would love to see someone do this. Let's
take a biblical scholar and a and a and a
folklore scholar, get them together and have them find other
stories that teach the same lesson as the biblical stories.

(01:31:27):
And here's another form of that story, and and where
perhaps two independent and and and in some degrees. Joseph
Campbell did this with the with the Hero's journey here
with a thousand faces. He said, here's the same elements
across different traditions, but this is more specific to the
idea of the Bible, saying, you know, this wisdom exists,
and other people came to the same conclusion because it's

(01:31:49):
a real pattern that reoccurs in human life as we go,
as we age, as we struggle against the world. That
would be fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:31:57):
I would love to host a debate like that. I
actually know of someone, a writer who has a master's
in folklore, and.

Speaker 6 (01:32:08):
I would say the idea. Maybe wouldn't be a debate,
but it would be like a collaborative effort to identify similarities.
And now the debates are fun too, but it can
also be like, let's explore the subject and try and
figure out how where these things overlap and I would
say the biblical scholars could say, well, see that just
validates the Bible is true because other people came to
the same conclusion. And the folklorist could say, you know,

(01:32:32):
maybe the Bible has some truth in it because I
think these stories are valuable because they teach a lesson.
Here's another book teaching a similar lesson. Kind of building
that bridge too, Oh, Matt, I would that would be
kind of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:32:44):
I would love to host.

Speaker 6 (01:32:45):
I help Peo pull that together. Yeah, do it?

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
Link be so cool.

Speaker 6 (01:32:49):
We'll see, we'll see.

Speaker 2 (01:32:50):
It's going to be such a long term project, though,
he could be. That'll be awesome. Kind of going back
to the you know, the the cold stuff.

Speaker 6 (01:33:00):
Yeah, I derail that real quick.

Speaker 2 (01:33:01):
Sorry, No, I mean due. You went on in Atlantis
and I'm like, oh.

Speaker 6 (01:33:04):
That is okay, right, So do I think Atlantis is real? Yeah,
it's probably one of my cookiest beliefs. And reincarnation probably
real too. But anyway, yeah, I mean sure.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
But like as you said that, you know, Christianity started
out as a cult, Islam started out as a cult mythraism.
I know a follower of Mithras. I guess it's still
kind of considered a cold.

Speaker 6 (01:33:26):
They do refer to it in historical documents anyways, the
Cult of Mythris, Yeah exactly. It's kind of like it's
a proper title in a way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):
Sure. But like if you think of modern day cults,
you know, the ones that we've all heard about from
our favorite here.

Speaker 6 (01:33:40):
The cat didn't mean to snort into the mic. I
mean it makes me think of Heaven's Gate. I mean that's,
for exople the Marshall Apple White and then a bunch
of kids castraight themselves and everyone commits suicides. That's yeah,
that's what we think of as a cult. That's not good.

Speaker 2 (01:33:52):
That's no, no, absolutely not. And you know we we
we all know the stories. We all have our favorites,
you know true crime podcaster who yeah, you know, spoken
about a lot of those stories, my favorites. Just because
my my wife has become good friends with her. When
I after I had her on the podcast Brenda from
Horrifying History, m shut out, Brenda. We love you, you

(01:34:14):
good tim like you're shaking the whole damn dusk.

Speaker 6 (01:34:17):
Yeah, I can hear the collar.

Speaker 2 (01:34:19):
Yeah it's okay, Yeah, it was very thing why I
gave him the nickname tinkle, tinkle, tmy.

Speaker 6 (01:34:25):
Ah, yep, does he have a bell on there? Or
is it just the metal on the collar tinking?

Speaker 5 (01:34:31):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
No, let's see.

Speaker 6 (01:34:33):
Can he has a I think I see a little bell? Yeah,
a little bell there it is? Yes, yeah, Well that's
one way to help you not trip over them. I
swear these cats are trying to kill me. They want
to cut to the They want to cut to the
part where I die alone and they can eat my
eyeballs or something.

Speaker 2 (01:34:49):
It's he it's good nurture, right, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:34:52):
And honestly, if they were trapped and nothing to eat,
I would want them to eat my corpse. I wouldn't
wouldn't bother me at all. I'm dead at that point,
so I would go go bonapetite a little little bit. Anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:35:01):
They're roothless, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:35:05):
And as much as they nuzzle on us and love us,
and and I think to a degree, consider us just
big dumb cats that really can't You can't even lick
your own butt. How do you take care of yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:35:14):
You know, you don't even hunt? How are you not
dead yet?

Speaker 6 (01:35:18):
Right exactly? And that's sometimes that's why they bring us
a little little mice and whatnot. They're like, they're trying
to feed us like we feed them, you know. Yeah,
but still when when it comes down to it and
they're like, well that's meat.

Speaker 5 (01:35:29):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:35:30):
I love he was alive, but he's.

Speaker 2 (01:35:34):
Not getting me any He's not responding, you know, nibble nothing, yeah,
bite nothing.

Speaker 6 (01:35:41):
I think eyeball time.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
And you know, if you know, if if that's well,
there's a saying in Dutch the ansidodes on those of broats,
and it like literally means, you know, one man's death,
that is none of the men's life. So yeah, if
that's if that's the same for ours, why not?

Speaker 6 (01:36:01):
Oh yeah? And I also love that phrase too, like
one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It's like
what do you believe? What is your what side of
an issue are you on? And then that defines some
of these things exactly. Anyway, No, what we do real
all over the place. I don't even know what we're
talking about. We're talking about stories or something. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:36:21):
No, the the cults, oh yes, yes, yes, those those leaders,
they are often worshiped as gods, and like, yeah, you
could you know, do the strong man argument, like oh,
but that's you know, because all of those people are
you know, they're they're brainwashed and everything got taken from them,
and you know their their leader keeps everything from them. Yeah,

(01:36:44):
that that may be so, but they're still worshiped as
gods or you know, as messengers of a certain higher being,
whether that be you know, aliens or you know God.
Often it's it's God, like, oh yeah, I can talk
to God like wow, really yeah? And he said give

(01:37:05):
me all your money and your wife's you sure? He
said that hosting like, you're questioning me, your messenger of
good Oh no, no, sorry, sorry.

Speaker 6 (01:37:14):
You know you're not becoming a toxic personality, are you?
You're not questioning the word of God?

Speaker 1 (01:37:19):
No.

Speaker 6 (01:37:20):
I listened to I listened to a guy on the
internet who he describes it this way himself. He says,
he escaped from the Jehovah's Witness cult and he started
realizing that a lot of the tactics they use to
keep their membership in line and from leaving or from questioning.
He notices that. So after he left, he started noticing

(01:37:40):
the mainstream media does a lot of the same thing.
They use a lot of the same tactics.

Speaker 10 (01:37:45):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (01:37:46):
An example he gave last night was news commentator said,
we're just learning from the New York Times, and he pausited,
and he said, this is like when the elders of
my church would come back and say, you know, we're
just learning from the governing board, or we're just learning
from the watchtowered. It's like, you mean, the people you

(01:38:07):
choose to believe told you something, and now you're saying
sharing it with us, as this is incontrovertible truth. It's
just truth that we're learning the truth by listening to
these people. And then he noticed the news media does
that too, and it's like, now, wait a minute, Well,
why would I trust the New York Times. Why would
you say we could learn anything from those people if
I think they're not a good source.

Speaker 2 (01:38:29):
Isn't that also like kind of one big cult telling
us what to think, how to think, what to believe.
They're telling us, you know, going back to the comments,
what you said, but freedom fighter and terrorists, they're telling
us those people are terrorists. You know, they're not freedom fighters,
they're terrorists because exactly they're against us, they go against

(01:38:50):
our values. Well guess what to those people, you're the terrorists.

Speaker 5 (01:38:56):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:38:56):
Yeah, and that leads to a lot of things where
there's you know, double standards of like, well, it's not
bad when we do it. It's the same behavior, but
it's a good thing when our side enacts that behavior.
And that also made me think of the cult thing too.
It's like whether whether someone has achieved a rational true belief,

(01:39:17):
true true in the honest, honestly arrived at a rational
belief in something, or they've been tricked into it, the
behavioral result is the same. They act in accordance with
that belief. However they arrived at that belief. So in
some ways, it doesn't matter how a person arrived at
the at a belief there, it's it's the fact that
they do believe that then governs and dictates their behavior. Well,

(01:39:40):
this is the right thing to do, because that's what
I believe is the right thing to do. In some
ways a circular thing, but that gets that gets off
into a whole nother branch of like, well how much
should we question everything? Because even the people that are
like the most skeptical or paranoid, And that became a
mantra and I think it was out of the sixties.
Question everything. I means, don't just blindly accept traditions as

(01:40:02):
necessarily correct just because they're traditions. And then you got
that that this is another one of those aphorisms where
it's like, okay, it's ninety nine. You can't actually question everything.
There are too many things to question. So it's a
command that is impossible to fulfill. What they mean when
you narrow it down more is like, just because someone

(01:40:24):
told you something, don't swallow it unquestioningly. Yeah, you know,
you've still got to brain use it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:29):
That kind of thing exactly, you know, and especially with
you know, authority figures. You know, like we're talking about
cold leaders. They are, you know, pretty much authority figures.

Speaker 6 (01:40:39):
Yeah, like they've set themselves up as the ultimate authority.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Over you or your group exactly. Oftentimes you know, also
just answering to another higher authority because you.

Speaker 6 (01:40:49):
Know, to me, God said, God, yeah, I don't want
to do this. I'm just like you. I'm just I
don't really want to sleep with your wife. But I mean, God, Scott,
can't this a big God? What are you gonna do?

Speaker 1 (01:40:59):
You?

Speaker 2 (01:41:00):
It's you. It sucks sucks to be me. It also
sucks to be what with me? What with me?

Speaker 6 (01:41:06):
I don't really want to do your.

Speaker 2 (01:41:09):
Sure, no, and then you have I believe it was
also the New York Times or at least some major
publication in the believe that was during COVID times that
they literally put out an article like saying, don't do
your own research.

Speaker 6 (01:41:24):
Oh, I know, I hate that. I saw that. That's unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (01:41:29):
Are you fucking kidding me? You're not, But we are exactly,
you know, you're you're literally telling the people just listen
to us. We know the truth. You know, we are
the established press. We are the truth. You know, just

(01:41:49):
like the what what they've been saying and sometimes still
are saying, you know, the science is settled.

Speaker 6 (01:41:57):
No, it's not.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
That goes against what's allience is. You have questioned everything.
Science is science.

Speaker 6 (01:42:06):
He's like, yeah, okay, even answers you think you understand,
question it again, look at it from a different angle. Exactly.
You know, you can't spend your entire life every single
day repeating the same experiment, because then you'll never eat
or sleep or you know, move on to other maybe
more important or useful things. There's all, there's all the
big balancing act with that whole thing. But yeah, that's
I don't think anything did more to ruin excuse me,

(01:42:28):
ruin the credibility of the concept of an expert more
than the COVID years. You know that that they being
told so many things officially, factually, and if you don't agree,
you are censored. That's a big problem now. And then
now we've got what is it recently jd Vance, vice
President of the US, went to Europe and he's like, hey, guys,

(01:42:50):
we don't think it's good that you're censoring people. We
believe in free political speech, so maybe don't do that.
And then we had an American commentator on a Sunday
morning show talking to Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State,
and she was telling him, you know, it was free
speech in Germany that led to the Holocaust, And I'm like,
are you That's not what happened at all. And that's

(01:43:13):
just they started with this idea of we we are correct,
we must control the narrative or millions of people will
be genocided. And I'm like, you should be taken off
the air. You are a dangerous person. I get to
silence you because I think letting you speak is going
to destroy the world. Wow, that's number one. Talk about
an ego, but just the idea that someone would promulgate

(01:43:36):
that idea that maybe there's people listening out there who go, oh, yeah,
if we want to avoid another holocaust, we have to
take away people's free speech. Like that's the worst possible
thing you could do. Of course, I believe that's the
worst possible thing you could do. Maybe you agree, she doesn't.
She's a kind of person who's like, yes, I should
be I should decide what you are allowed to say.
Is so leap to me. That's I mean, that's almost

(01:43:59):
like indios manic, you know, delusions that she needs to
be in a hospital.

Speaker 2 (01:44:03):
It's that is talkingtive dissonance, that that should be studied,
that should be It gets sam into the most minute
detail is freedom of speech.

Speaker 6 (01:44:15):
That let yeah, I think that's one of the things
going wrong in Europe right now is you know, the
EU and and England and whatnot, is there's people who
are like, hey, we have problems in our society and
we want to talk about them, and the government says,
we think talking about him is a bad things. So
we're gonna kind of tell you not to do that
and maybe put you in there, and you're gonna get
it talking to by the police, and I'm like, that

(01:44:35):
is happening. Unfortunately it's it's not.

Speaker 2 (01:44:39):
You know, I I live in Europe.

Speaker 6 (01:44:41):
I live under the rule of the eat you say,
I'm sorry, I'll try not to say anything to get
you in trouble. I'm an American. Fuck you. I do
what I want. Oh my government, My government will come
after me too.

Speaker 2 (01:44:53):
America, nutshell, fuck you. I do what it wants, what
I want, what I want.

Speaker 1 (01:44:56):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:44:57):
Speaking of that though, and I come cutting you off again,
but I want to to Okay what Trump is doing.
This got political. I don't know how I follow all
this stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:45:03):
And I it's fine, you know, talking about cults, that's pretty.

Speaker 6 (01:45:06):
Much a cult, no for sure. Yeah, yeah, America the cult.
We are cults of freedom and guns.

Speaker 2 (01:45:12):
It's her new novel, America the Cult.

Speaker 6 (01:45:15):
Yes, there you go. But the idea of I think
America has become hated around the world because we let
our administrative state bloat, and that bloat turned into things
like USAID, where we're sending money to open up programs
in other people's countries and try and influence their politics
and change the way. Now there's Americans who are like look,

(01:45:37):
if we don't use our soft power, who are we
giving the world over to? Are we giving it to China,
We're giving it to Russia? Whatever. But but yeah, I
see you shaking your heads like I'm I'm of the
opinion we shouldn't be fucking around in foreign countries like this.
I'm America. I'm American. I do what I want in America.
I should not be doing what I want in your country. Yeah,
none of my damn business. Even if, hey, you wanna

(01:45:59):
I offer you friendship, you want to be better friends
with China? Maybe you just you believe more of what
they believe you you think it's a better deal for you.
I shouldn't then go in there and say, well, I
guess you're not in power anymore because I'm the US
and I do what I want. And now, hey, look
at this friendly guy. We're gonna put him in power.
I don't think we should be doing that. I don't
feel good about it. I don't like it.

Speaker 2 (01:46:18):
I don't want That's my fuck.

Speaker 6 (01:46:21):
You attitude is is very much limited to my own borders.
I don't think we should be exporting freedom around the world,
you know, under bombardment. That's just I think that's what.
I can't believe we spent the last year, twenty some
odd years invading and occupying Middle Eastern countries. I just
I wish none of that ever happened. That's all wrong.
I don't I don't agree with that. I don't like it. Well,

(01:46:41):
and many getting more sticky wickets, like what do you
do with Ukraine and Israel? I don't know. I don't know.
That's I try to stay out of that one too,
just because like, yeah, can I wish they both kill
each other and we don't worry about it anymore? You
can't say that, but I can. I can. I wonder
if that's what I should wish.

Speaker 2 (01:46:57):
We can do, like a whole separate show. Just those well, I.

Speaker 6 (01:47:00):
Wish they would get along. I wish nobody died and
everybody got along. That's not the case. I wish it
was the case. So I don't know what this is about.

Speaker 2 (01:47:07):
Beautiful wish and I'm sure you'll win Miss America with
that one.

Speaker 6 (01:47:12):
There's an interesting idea. Now, Okay, Trump speaking Trump, he's
he's he's talked about wanting to buy Greenland, and yeah,
no one, no one knows if he's serious and that's
part of his Madman strategies. Is he serious about that?
Is he what is he doing? We don't know, So
he's like he leaves it vay crazy enough to try.
He's he's a bit of a crazy man. Well, then

(01:47:33):
it comes to the idea of well, we're just gonna
you know, we're gonna own Gaza. We'll just take it
because we're American and we paid for the war anyway,
you know, send them millions of dollars. I like that
as a Madman strategy in some ways of like, look,
if you guys don't figure it out, we're fucking taking
the toy away.

Speaker 2 (01:47:47):
We can't have it on some Marvel doctor evil shit.

Speaker 5 (01:47:49):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:47:50):
Yeah, maybe so. But it's also like it's it's a
threat hanging over their heads of like what we better
figure this out or he might be serious. The other
side of the coin is what if he was serious
and we did turn Gaza, say, into the Riviera of
the Middle East, and it was full of luxury hotels, beautiful,
peaceful city life and apartments, no more terrorism and whatnot,

(01:48:11):
and then the people that they let back in are
vetted to not be Hamas. Then all the Palestinians get
to come back and live in a paradise and they
don't have to come have the terrorists come back with them.
Now do I advocate that? Not necessarily. I don't have
all the pieces worked out, but that thought came to
my mind of like, what if that was the outcome,
would that be actually a pretty good thing? I don't know.

(01:48:32):
I don't know, but I want to throw it out there.
It's just on the internet of like, it may not
be such a bad idea. If he's serious, that's fucked up,
because that's actually.

Speaker 2 (01:48:43):
That's actually pretty good.

Speaker 6 (01:48:44):
Like if that's as an outcome, it's not bad. That's
what I'm saying. You know, I don't like the process.
But then as an outcome of like millions of civilians
get to come back in and live in peace, not
ruled by Hamas, not living in a war zone, and
everyone's just chill, and we can put this whole what's
seventy eighty years of people trying to destroy Israel. Put
that to bed. No more. We don't do that anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:49:05):
We'll just make it another like tourist attraction in the
Middle East. I mean, it has all the people who
live right there and you know, have a beautiful I've
been to Egypt. They are you know, they are beautiful countries.
It is a beautiful, beautiful culture. So if we can,
you know, like make it a little more more touristy,

(01:49:27):
there's more money in that as well.

Speaker 6 (01:49:30):
Oh yeah, yeah, I think one of the big thing
is just I mean, you can't have a neighbor who's
trying to kill you all the time and you know,
either one on either side. So we've got to put
that to bed. We've got to stop that conflict so
that no many more, no more people die.

Speaker 2 (01:49:45):
Well, then what is America if not you know, the
big brother who's trying to kill you all the time.

Speaker 6 (01:49:50):
Yeah, no, it's true. We don't really like what you
did there, so we're gonna bomb your country again. We
got to stop doing that. That's not good. That's not good.
We've got no leg to stand on when it comes
to that. Well, then you get people too who are like,
you know, when you try to say, hey, some of
the things America did might have led to the conflict
in Ukraine, and they're like, why do you hate America?
And I'm like, don't hate America. I'm not a fan
of my government. I think they've made mistakes. I think

(01:50:11):
we pushed some things that got us into trouble. We
provoked the response. There are people who, yeah, we'll say,
you just hate America and they can't. They can't do
American bad, American bad. But I live here, man, I
love it. It's not America bad, it's America. Quit fucking around,
stop it, stop it.

Speaker 2 (01:50:27):
As a European I can, I can honestly say that,
you know, all the bullshit going on in America, it's
good entertainments.

Speaker 6 (01:50:37):
Like that is yeah, yeah, yeah, Well he's hopefully he's
wrecking the piece of our government that fucks with other
people and then we all get along a lot better.
That's what I'm hoping for.

Speaker 2 (01:50:49):
We can hope. But you know, we're we're watching in
the Netherlands, you know, watching from the outher side of
the ocean, like, oh my god, what the fuck is
he doing?

Speaker 6 (01:51:00):
And meanwhile we're still watching. We're watching things like the UK,
where you know, Tommy Robinson is in solitary confinement because
he doesn't like the idea that certain immigrants are incompatible
with English life. If we put it politely, yeah, that's
very politely. It's very politely for the EU sensors.

Speaker 2 (01:51:21):
That's the other thing too, just like way too brush.

Speaker 6 (01:51:24):
Where So if America is going to use our soft
power and influence, I would like to see it put
pressure on the EU and Britain to be more open
to the first adopting a first Amendment approach to popular
or to political discussion openly and in public.

Speaker 2 (01:51:44):
But we have that in like most at least western
European countries. I can't speak for you know, for the rest,
but we have freedom of speech. It's it's not just
an American thing. And that's that's also so funny with
you know, America and all of the things, all of
the rules and the constitutions, like, oh, but we have

(01:52:05):
constitutions because freedom of speech. And it's like, yeah, we
do too, but we don't have a constitution. It's just
it's it's in the law, you know, it's literally the
ground rules of our country that say you have freedom
of speech.

Speaker 6 (01:52:24):
Nice and maybe some are better than others, I granted,
just I guess I look at the breadth dope of
American free speech and like, I think there's less than
the American total in Europe and maybe Europeans go you
guys go too far. You shouldn't be that free. And
I look at it the other way. I think Europe
should be more free. I think they should have America

(01:52:44):
we should have more rights to free speech, and Europe
should have that much more as well.

Speaker 2 (01:52:49):
But America isn't free.

Speaker 6 (01:52:51):
You're that's that's a lot of way.

Speaker 2 (01:52:53):
That's that's the thing. If you look at it realistically,
you're not free. Like you know, the constitutions just this
and institution says that, yeah, great, is enforced.

Speaker 6 (01:53:04):
Yep, No, that's a big problem. Well, we've got the
Second Amendment says shall not, shall not, shall not be infringed,
infringed in any way, little infringe, big infringe, shall not
be in. We've got tons of gun laws. Everywhere he
goes gun laws. Guns, you can't buy guns, you can't
take some certain places. Guns can't hide guns, you have
to you're only allowed to purchase if you have a

(01:53:27):
permit from the imagine you have to purchase a permit
from the government for free speech. That's what they're doing
with a gun. And it's a very simple shall not
be infringed government. You can't touch this. You can't. You
cannot pass a law They've passed hundreds of laws, and
I think they're all unconstitutional. I will still go to
prison if I don't follow them. So I can believe
whatever I want and I can say it, but I
can't can't violate it. And another thing to tell me,

(01:53:48):
just in terms of the extremity of speech, there are
limitations on say, free speech in America, where it's like,
you can't threaten to kill someone directly in a in
a imminent and believable fashion. You can't necessarily call for
the extermination of an entire race with Now, I don't
think these things are good, but I think they should

(01:54:09):
be legal. I think those should not even be exceptions
because of the principle, because the principle is so important.
I think you should because words, hair coming out of
your mouth cannot physically harm someone, I think that should
be the limit. The limit is physical harm itself, not
the threat of harm, although there's that's complicated. But I

(01:54:31):
would expand free speech in America even further than it is.
I would repeal some of the limits they've put on it.
But that's I'm pretty I'm pretty extreme out there. So
when I look at Europe, I'm like, good God, those
poor batsters based on my standard of what I would want.

Speaker 2 (01:54:42):
Yeah, no, which is which is funny because you know,
we we can do a whole lot more than America.
But it's it's so funny. America always like falls back
on the gun laws.

Speaker 6 (01:54:52):
Oh we can have guns. Yeah we we. I'm kind
of proud of that.

Speaker 2 (01:54:56):
We can do too, Like I I can, I can
own gone if I want to. I just need a really,
really really good reason why. And I don't have a
reason why. So how do you But but then, how
do you defend yourself? Well I don't.

Speaker 6 (01:55:10):
I don't have to. That's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:55:13):
I don't have to defend myself.

Speaker 6 (01:55:15):
Well, there's another question there too. Was reading a statistic
the other day that since certain migration patterns started to develop,
you know, certain rather heinous crimes against people have skyrocketed
about like three hundred something percent. And it's not the
natives that are that are doing that. I mean, they've
tracked it. So it's in societies where they are more homogeneous,

(01:55:35):
you get better results, you get higher trust, you get
more people like yeah, you look at your neighbor and
like that person is just an extended member of my family.
In a way that it's not. The more cultural and
regional and ethnic differences pile up, you start getting people
that are very different who live by different moral codes
sometimes and then those called data conflict.

Speaker 2 (01:55:55):
That is very basic human behavior. It's like, hey, you
look like me a you know, therefore I'm gonna assume
that I can trust you because you.

Speaker 6 (01:56:08):
Know, for the most part, you can. Because they're thinking.

Speaker 2 (01:56:12):
If someone has a you know, a different color, speaks
a different a different language that is not even remotely
similar to yours, believes in a different god, it's like a,
I don't know, I don't know. I don't know you,
I don't know your God, I don't know your language.
I'm gonna, you know, keep you at a distance, not

(01:56:34):
because I don't trust you, but because I don't know
if I can trust you, because I don't know you,
because you know, you're not one of my people, which
is a very natural thing. Like you see that in
nature in the Animal Kingdom all the time. You know,
it's it's.

Speaker 6 (01:56:55):
Freaking spot and they defend it. Yeah, it's very it's
pretty basic. Yeah, and then you know the straw man
of that is, well, you're just xenophobic, You're just afraid
of things that are differently. No, no, no, no, it's
that when you have too many differences, there will be conflict.
And we're trying to minimize conflict because we want to

(01:57:16):
we want to get along with our neighbors to the
degree that we can. And the more similar to you
your neighbors are, the more easily everything flows exactly. And
I you know, I think things like common courtesy, you know,
saying saying thank you. I mean, some cultures don't have
that as a thing or by when they say things
like thank you, it's more like what was there was
a translation where the word literally meant I think it's

(01:57:38):
a Spanish sort or some where they're the way the
way they are some some South American country the way
they say thank you or is obligado. In a way,
it's like, oh, it's my obligation. So they're not really
saying I appreciate you, believe yeah, yeah, something like that.
You're not really saying you, I benefited from you, I
have special feelings towards you. The person is saying, don't

(01:57:59):
worry about it. Was in a way they not you know,
it's it's it's nothing, but but really what they're saying
is oh, I'm just fulfilling my obligation, which to me
doesn't have the same cultural meaning as I personally appreciate
you know what, what you've done or or anyway. So
so yeah, just even if something as simple as a
language difference can be a huge difference in culture. And

(01:58:21):
then you get in American and we were so we've
always okay, we were like ninety eight percent white for
like forever until the nineteen sixties, and then we brought
in a lot of people and then there, you know,
they said the Irish weren't white and all that, all
that good kind of stuff. But yeah, they even did.
They were even like you know, no no, no, uh
no black snow dogs and no Irish was a sign
in front of some businesses way back.

Speaker 2 (01:58:40):
If anything, the Irish or like it won't make like
the whitest people, you know, when it comes to skin tone,
they're the whitest, hastiest out there.

Speaker 6 (01:58:48):
Right. Yeah, And actually, we're gonna need to embark on
a preservation campaign to keep the redheads from disappearing. I mean,
that's that's a that's a human tragedy if red headed
women disappeared for your.

Speaker 2 (01:58:59):
Right working on it.

Speaker 6 (01:59:00):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (01:59:01):
My daughter's a redthead, my ex is a red head,
my wife is a red hat.

Speaker 6 (01:59:04):
There you go. You're doing the work, will be good.
I'm not. I have no kids. So it's a that's
a that's a that's a I guess recessive trade in
a way of like, you know, so you look at
things like, well, what do you think it's bad for
the race mix and and I'm like, no, not necessarily,
but I think it should be the exception to the
rule unless you're okay with certain people no longer existing,

(01:59:27):
which may be somewhere, and you know, throughout human history
maybe there's been a lot of cultures and civilizations and
phenotypes or whatever they say, that have faded away or
blended it to the point where what they were they
no longer. It happens. But I think we can choose
whether or not to let redheads go extinct. And I
argue against it. So that's my that's my me too,
you know me too, that's I think exactly right.

Speaker 2 (01:59:47):
It's race mixing another you know, very sensitive topic.

Speaker 6 (01:59:51):
Which not controversial at all, which.

Speaker 2 (01:59:53):
Has happened, you know, so many times in history. The Neanderthals,
the Genisovians, the you know out say kins. There's a
reason if.

Speaker 6 (02:00:01):
You fall in love with someone who's who looks different
than you, I don't care. I'm not angry at you know,
there's not supposed to get married.

Speaker 2 (02:00:09):
There's a reason why certain groups of people you know
still look more like Neanderthals. You know, they have the
you know, the big the big four hat kind of
you know, flat skull, flat hat. Was this one like
Russian dude who was an ambassador or something something that
EU or something like that. Dude was massive, you look
like freaking you know, Drigo from from Rocky four or whatever. Yeah,

(02:00:31):
you know, I mean it's but like chro magnet style,
like like you get yeah, you can pound nails with
his forehead. Jesus, this guy and huge. He probably still
has you know, a good amount of Neanderthal DNA. You know,
those are like picture a cave man. That's about what
in the end Athal looks like. So if somebody like

(02:00:53):
you know, like that indeed just walking around to you're
just like, holy shit, that's not want to mess with that.
He probably has you know, a large or larger amount
of neanthol dna. Mm hmm, but that's that's literal ages
years ago.

Speaker 6 (02:01:08):
It's a millennia go.

Speaker 2 (02:01:10):
But the thing is with a lot of those I've
seen those I've seen those stories. I've seen the you know,
like infused with those kind of people, a lot of
them whose parents are of two different well two different
races really, I mean humans have racist Sorry.

Speaker 6 (02:01:29):
It's like it's like types of birds. We got peacocks
and you know, I mean, yeah, we're both tiny songbirds
and exactly we're.

Speaker 2 (02:01:35):
Both human, but you know, we're still different. But they
because they're like half and half, they don't feel you know,
let's take the most basic example, like African and European.
They don't feel European because you know, they just don't
don't look European enough to be European. But they also

(02:01:58):
don't feel African because you know, they don't like look
African enough to fit in with the Africans.

Speaker 6 (02:02:05):
And if they especially if they weren't raised in that culture, like,
they'll go there and people will be like, well, you're
a foreigner. We don't yeah, didn't end up here, You're not.

Speaker 2 (02:02:11):
One of a lot of Unfortunately, a lot of times
both sites will say that, you know, the European site
will say like, no, sorry, you're not European. I mean,
like here's a mirror, you know, look at me, look
at you. You're not European. Then they go through the
African site and it's like, well, you know, can I

(02:02:32):
then like be with you guys, like I'm you know,
half African, my mother, my father, you know, whoever is African.
It's like, no, you're You're not African.

Speaker 6 (02:02:44):
So a lot of them feel like kind of stuck
in the middle, which is sure, which is sad. Really
that brings me back to my point of America. And
then you know, in the nineteen sixties we started opening
it up. We became more Hispanic and more you know,
African migration and China and India and all this kind
of stuff. So America is a little a little different

(02:03:06):
when it comes to you know, I want Ireland to
stay Ireland. I want Germany or Netherlands to stay the
way they are. I want the people who live there,
the ancestors of that land, to be the same people
in perpetuity. Ideally, that's my wish for you and I know,
and America is different in that regard of like we were,
we were not a nation of immigrants. That's the wrong

(02:03:27):
way to put it. We have become more a nation
of immigrants in the last sixty years, that's true. But
in the beginning, we were settlers and conquerors. We fought
natives to established and we settled land that nobody was
living on. I mean, it's not like we kicked It's
not like Indians lived everywhere. We kicked them out here.
They lived over there, and we kind of filled in
the gaps in between where we had conflicts. We had

(02:03:49):
conflicts and you know, and we can argue was it
resolved the best possible way? Maybe not, that's that's tribal living,
you know, but I mean it was the way of
the world to as Colic, we were doing anything anybody
else wasn't doing. You know, you settle and conquer and
you do your thing, and everyone's gone.

Speaker 2 (02:04:03):
For it, and then we decided the own people.

Speaker 6 (02:04:05):
So you know, that's the funny. Like that's another thing.
I this is a complete tangent to but a lot
of people don't understand that when America was founded, it
was following years centuries of religious conflict where different religious
sects in Europe, it was constant wars and they were
almost all of them over religion. And they were not
all of them, but but like the significant majority of

(02:04:28):
the largest wars. Yeah, from like what was it like
from eleven or twelve hundred up until the sixteen seventeen hundreds,
they were fighting a lot of wars over religion. It's
since the Catholics and the Protestants in different sects and
and and stuff like that. Crusades and you know crusades, Yeah,
the whole other thing. Yeah, yeah, well, actually that's when
that's when Europe started fighting itself more was after the

(02:04:50):
Muslim conquest and then the Crusades to kind of drive
them out, and then the next Crusade to go in
and go for all. Let's take Jerusalem. Now's that kind
of a thing too, Okay, all of this to get
around to say in that America. But what America's got
to do is if we are going to be a
melting pot, we actually have to turn up the heat
and melt the immigrants into the pot. They have to assimilate.

(02:05:12):
And we've spent the last thirty forty some odd years
with the American left, as they put it, saying no,
you don't have to learn the language, you don't have
to adopt our customs. You don't have to change anything
about yourself. You can just bring you and everything you
are and just move it physically to this plot of
land in a different country. And like that is partly

(02:05:34):
what's ruined our higher trust society. Is it's not just
that people might look different, it's that, really we're not
having as much cultural assimilation as we should to make
it a successful project. So you get people who say
we shouldn't have any immigration at all because it's all
fucked up, and then people who say we should have
unlimited immigration and nobody assimilates. I'm like, Okay, I'm more

(02:05:54):
on the other side of a I would do And
I've advocated this before, about a thirty year more than
a full generation moratorium on any immigration, just to give
us a chance to settle some shit. Just one full
generation for the people here to assimilate, for us to
have our culture war about establishing a national identity, and
then we can have that conversation, Okay, we're going to

(02:06:15):
open up our borders again and let people in. Who
do we want to let in and why? And how
I think we need time. I think it's been you
know there's people who we're talking about that idea of xenophobia,
and it's like it's two different again. Looking at the
yin yang, and I've posted this before, it's a yin
yang and on one side is progress and the other

(02:06:36):
side is tradition. And I think you need both and
you need them to work together. And you can't have
a society that eliminates one hundred percent of all tradition
because that's stupid. Obviously, you can't have zero progress because
we're not perfect. Something could always be a little bit better.
So you need both, you absolutely need both. And what

(02:06:56):
I so, So the people on the progress side, we
might say the progress zealots, the true believers. That is
their cult, the cult of progress. Change is always good,
no matter what I think, they're nuts. They look at
the tradition folks, even the ones who say, hey, maybe
we should keep most of the traditions because they seem
pretty functional. They look at those people and they say, well,

(02:07:17):
you're a xenophobic. You're afraid of change, you're afraid of
things that are different than you. And I feel so
frustrated by that idea because that's the number one that's
not me. But number two they're not taking seriously the
question that you can have too much change too fast
and you don't have the ability to adapt. And that's

(02:07:38):
what we've I think what we've been then, what Europe's
going through right now as well, is even if you
want to start letting in more of these folks, you
got to do it slowly. You got to make sure
they're brought up to speed and explain cultural expectations. They've
got to learn the language and become part of that culture,
not just be an African person living in France that

(02:07:58):
they're not French, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:08:00):
But then the funny thing is, you know, if it
were the other way around, for example, it is expected
that we assimilate, and if we don't, it's like, well,
then good luck to you, because either yeah, if we
go to.

Speaker 6 (02:08:15):
A foreign country, they're not going to learn English for
my sake, They're just not gonna do it. They're gonna
be like, tough shit, good luck to you. And that's
I kind of feel like that's the attitude we should
have as well. Luck then I guess, don't learn English.
I mean all the forms are in English, street signs
are in English, the driver's licensed test is in English.
You're gonna kind of have to adapt exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:08:34):
I mean here in the Netherlands because now we've we've
always been a country of trade. You know, we have
England just on the you know, the other side of
the pond. We have Germany next to us. We have
France pretty nearby. It's what is it like, Well, from
from where I live, it's maybe a cat's say three

(02:08:55):
three and a half four hour drive and I am
south and I am well into France. That's pretty damn short,
you know.

Speaker 6 (02:09:03):
It's true, And it's about a three or four hour drive.
I'm in California, but but then it's about an eight
or ten hour drive to get to Mexico, a huge.

Speaker 7 (02:09:11):
Eight to ten hours far without taking get to Italy eighteen,
like if you were driving well into Yeah, no, I've okay,
that's funny.

Speaker 2 (02:09:21):
That's that's the thing I've you know, with my parents,
I've been lucky enough to explore a lot of the
world already, a lot of Europe already a lot of times.
Also because it was with three kids, you know, myself,
my brother, my sister. We always like had the the
mini fan, like the seven eight seedter you know, so
perfect for the kids and birthday parties and you could

(02:09:44):
stuff all the freaking baggage in there.

Speaker 6 (02:09:46):
So if it was like.

Speaker 2 (02:09:47):
Italy or France or Germany, my parents would drive that
and yeah, that is like a good u A to
ten hours.

Speaker 6 (02:09:59):
I mean they were.

Speaker 2 (02:10:02):
Like, if it all goes well, like not too much
traffic and whenever we just you know, go south, we
are it's just ten hours. I'd say, we're like pretty
much in Spain by that time, and well on our
way into Uh.

Speaker 6 (02:10:21):
I'm kind of in some ways jealous of that too.
It's like, hey, kids, you want to go see the
coliseum this weekend and then it only just pop in
the car and drive me. I'm like, I got a
well plane ticket to get to New York first, well
probably Colorado and then New York and then wait and
then get on a plane and then land in Italy,
and then I got to find a driver and that's.

Speaker 2 (02:10:37):
I mean, I can I'm probably never going. I can
go to the airport taking international train. Now with two
and a half hours, I'm in Paris.

Speaker 6 (02:10:44):
Mm hmm. Speaking of which, Uh, I hadn't looked at
the map in a while, and I'm like, wow, France
and Spain especially are huge. I realize how big they
were in Germany too. It Germany is much bigger than
I thought it was. Yeah, then you get into all
the smaller, smaller countries around it and what not. But
it's interesting how the how the Balkans broke up, say
after after World War two and and certainly the fall

(02:11:06):
of the yeah, Soviet Empire.

Speaker 2 (02:11:09):
And they keep breaking well yeah, and they're like.

Speaker 6 (02:11:12):
You know, we are people of a certain kind who
live a certain way, with a certain culture, and these
are all my relatives. We just want to be a country.
And so they were sharing a country with like three
other groups of people, and they said, you know, let's
just all be our own countries. And now they did,
and it was I think it was fine. I don't know,
I need to study up on that. There's probably still
a lot of.

Speaker 2 (02:11:29):
Comting there too, but there have definitely been there has
been trouble in the East.

Speaker 6 (02:11:35):
There's been trouble. Yeah. No one wants to say like
genocide in Serbia didn't take place, that that happened, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:11:41):
Yeah, like the Balkans. But it's it's funny like you know,
in Europe or like western southern Europe, we see that
as like just a part of Europe. Like you have
Scandinavia in the north. Then you have well the Benelux
that is Belgian, Netherlands, Luxembourg, yeah, France, Spain, you know,
those are all all their their own and then you

(02:12:03):
have the Balkans, which is you know, all those countries
like pretty much next.

Speaker 6 (02:12:11):
To Germany somewhere over there. Yeah, like I.

Speaker 2 (02:12:18):
Would probably have uh, you know, I would probably have
trouble pointing out those countries because.

Speaker 6 (02:12:23):
Well, even them, you ask the people who live there,
and they're they're kind of fuzzy on the border because
they're like, it's never been important we live here, they
live there, the border somewhere in between. We don't even care.
It's a little fuzzy on their own borders sometimes.

Speaker 2 (02:12:35):
Yeah, no, but I mean that's that's also it's like,
come to think of it, that's actually a perfect example
of tribalism. You know, it's like, these are our people.
We'd like to live with those people. Those are not
our people, but they live there, so they can, you know,
live there. That's that's fine. As long as we live
with our people, you know.

Speaker 6 (02:12:55):
Yeah, I want to see more of that. I want
to see more of it, like we just we we're
not we're not bothering you leave us a we were
going to do our own thing whenever anybody and if
people want to be tribal that way, I've called for that.
In America, of course, we've got from the history of
the settling the country. We created Indian reservations where it's like, okay,
you get your own tribal land, and they're actually considered
a foreign nation within the boundaries of the United States.

(02:13:18):
They have their own We actually have treaties with them
that it's like, you do your thing, and that's why
they have their own tribal police, and we have to
get permission to send people in for law enforcement to go,
you know, hunt for people who committed crimes off off
reservation land. And I was thinking, what if we did
that for racial groups in America that want to live separately.

(02:13:38):
We create reservation for this is black country, this is
white country, it's Chinese country. You can live that way
if you want to. But if most of us are
not going to I'm not moving to a preservation just
to they run us.

Speaker 2 (02:13:51):
Kind of the idea unfersonally not going as well as
we would hope the growth of odin that we have started.
It's like, you know, but for the European pagan people,
we we've put it under your under the Odanism banner
because you know, that's that's something that is recognized, you know, Odinism.

(02:14:12):
Oh yeah, like no, we know what you mean. I mean,
there's there's a lot more more to it than just Odinism.
But you know, for you know, for government purposes, that's
easier because you know it's oh yeah, it's the freaking government.
They need to know, like what are you doing, Why
are you doing it? Where are you doing it? How
are you doing is like.

Speaker 6 (02:14:31):
Yeah, yeah, fill out these forms and then wait six
sixty eight weeks. Well that that kind of reminds me
of that's even happened in America as far as the
like we were talking about the Mormons, they're like Jesus,
Mormons are crazy. The Mormons like, will screw you, guys,
We're going to live in Salt Lake City. We'll let's
go do our own thing. And they still they still
run Utah. Basically it's they're.

Speaker 2 (02:14:48):
Run so much more. You should fair enough, Yeah, you
should listen to Unfiltered Rice with with Heidi love. She
is a former Mormon who is now spinning all their secrets.
I I had her on on semi recently to uh
to talk about cabbage babies and orphan chains. But yeah
on Fielded Rice podcast, shout out Heidi. She does like

(02:15:10):
a lot of axe Mormon stuff and they have their
fingers everything.

Speaker 6 (02:15:15):
Yeah, I can see that too. That's and that's that's
another thing with like the eye, there's there's a nested
Russian nesting doll scaling issues of like you know, so
the say the Mormons are using their soft power to
make to secure their own interest in their homeland, so
to speak, but they get their fingers in a lot
of pies. And then you've got America doing that on
the global stage. And that made me think of the

(02:15:35):
idea of we you know, one of the the global
culture war is between I guess you could say broadly
nationalism and globalism in a way where the globalists and
if if we I think they've done a lot of
bad things in the name of their religion, so to speak,
in the name of their ideal vision of the world. Sure,
and they're working to make it happen. But that's but

(02:15:57):
it's but setting aside that every group house, every group does,
setting aside the emotional content of how do I feel
about what they're doing. You know, their vision is that
they want the end of national borders. They want the
end of separate peoples, and that's what they're working towards.
They think that is the vision, that that is their
vision of the ideal progress of humanity towards something better.

(02:16:20):
I just happen to disagree. I think we lose the
real beautiful diversity that we have if we homogenize too much.
There's a phrase enough if I've used it with you
or other people with the ideas, it's been shortened to
global homo and some people think that means a global
push to make everybody homosexual. I'm like, no, it's global homogenization.

(02:16:43):
Everyone becomes one people, one united people of Earth. And
as much as that's it has its own beautiful dream
quality to it, I get why they think it's a
good idea. And it's not like there wouldn't be certain
problems that would disappear if we did that. Let's say
we to bread every human on the planet until we
all look the same same hair color, eye color, skin color,

(02:17:06):
we were all exactly the same. I think that's a
bad thing because we lose diversity and individual cultures and
a lot of things that just make it nice to
go from one place to another because it's different. When
there is that much similarity. That is one way to
accomplish or to re establish, say a high trust society,
is by taking a bunch of different people and making
them the same. Ultimately by force, by forcing people to

(02:17:29):
migrate and the countries to accept them. I see what
they're doing. Why is uprooted. It's easier to you know,
to plant new ideas. You know, Oh, this is no
longer your homeland. It's not everybody's homeland. Mm.

Speaker 2 (02:17:47):
But like my father has lived here for generations, you know.

Speaker 6 (02:17:53):
Yeah, I mean, and then they have someone just pop
in from another country and now they're your neighbor, and
you're like, hi, I'm the same as you. You're like
on paper. Yeah, not not really.

Speaker 2 (02:18:04):
I've had this discussion briefly with Tom Rauso from Survived
to Jive. Man. I'm I'm naming it name dropping everyone.

Speaker 6 (02:18:11):
Name That's good. No, but it's it's.

Speaker 2 (02:18:16):
You know, it's like just because and I compared it
to the people from the the Antills you know, a Rubabona.
The people from the the Suriname. You know, they just
because they have a Dutch passport, a Dutch bank account,
and they live here, so they have a Dutch home address,

(02:18:38):
which is like the three main things you need to
have for like a Dutch identity or do Yeah, like
on paper a Dutch identity.

Speaker 6 (02:18:47):
Yeah, it doesn't make them Dutch, yeah for sure, like yeah,
then and then there's yeah, and then the people on
the other side say that's no, no racist in Bobak
like it's just a funny thing.

Speaker 2 (02:19:01):
It is. They don't even consider themselves Dutch. Like if
you ask them, like, yo, where are you from? Yeah,
I'm from the Surynome, But I thought you were Dutch.
Yeah I am.

Speaker 6 (02:19:12):
When you get that American, how.

Speaker 2 (02:19:13):
Are you from? Like from Surynome, but you are a Dutch?
Well because I live here, we.

Speaker 6 (02:19:18):
Get the enclaves, like was it a illin Omar is
one of our representatives elected to you know, federal Congress,
and she's from Somalia and she lives in a kind
of little Somalia in a Minnesota somewhere that was full
of a bunch of imported Somali's And when they talk
to each other. And you've got recordings of her giving speeches.
She says, you know, uh, you know, I'm here to

(02:19:41):
represent my people, and by that she means her Somali community,
not Americans. I mean, she doesn't even consider herself or
her people who just happened to occupy space in this
country as Americans. That's not part of her thinking either.
I don't know, I don't know what to do about these.
I mean covered a lot of ground.

Speaker 2 (02:19:57):
Your idea is great, like that is happening in reservation,
you know.

Speaker 6 (02:20:00):
Yeah, let's then let's people form their own enclaves. Let's
just make it a separate country or something. And then
there's people will say, don't give away our land like
that okay, fair.

Speaker 2 (02:20:09):
Enough, No, just you know, give it powers, give it
away to Bill Gates, Like why don't you that's that's better.

Speaker 6 (02:20:16):
They don't complain about their billionaires. They just don't like ours.

Speaker 11 (02:20:18):
Right, it's not wrong when we do it, No, exactly,
exactly no, But that's that's and I mean, yeah, like
we we can live as a you know, a world
wise collective by respecting each other, like we don't all
have to look alike.

Speaker 2 (02:20:36):
I mean, by gods. Please, No, No, if we all
look alike, I don't want.

Speaker 6 (02:20:40):
To lose that. I think that's boring. That's like exactly
into one bucket.

Speaker 2 (02:20:45):
No, but I mean I get like since they're like
dropping names and quotes and and all of that syndrome
from the Incredibles picture the Incredibles, if everyone's special, nobody's special.

Speaker 6 (02:21:00):
I had that same thought, so attached to that idea.
Now we heard that ten years ago or more. Now
there's this new thing they call it the heat map,
where they said, you know, how far does your caring
about things beyond yourself extend? And one heat map of
conservatives is very local, family oriented, small, small group, primary concern.

(02:21:24):
And the heat map for the more liberal left, you know,
progressive type is well, I care about everything up to
and including space, dust and so, I mean I think
literally that's what it says, rocks and trees and whatnot.
And they look at it as we are morally superior
because we care more broadly about more things, or the
breadth of our carrying is better. And my perspective is

(02:21:47):
the syndrome quote. If you care about everything, you care
about nothing. You can't care about a rock and a
tree the same amount as you care about your family.
That's not good in my opinion. So I am very
much the localized map to my immediate surroundings, you know,
my wife, my my neighbors, my community, my state, my nation,

(02:22:07):
then the rest of the world in that order. And
then after all, the people of the world are rocks
and trees. We only need rocks and trees so much
as they. I love the biodiversity of nature. But but
you know, we take care of the environment so we
can keep living in It is what it is, and
we want it beautiful.

Speaker 2 (02:22:21):
And if we take care of ourselves, then we are
able to keep living in this environment. You know, live
in harmony with the environments, because you know, if we
don't do those heinous acts, then.

Speaker 6 (02:22:32):
Yeah, I get yeah, exactly. And as much as I
don't think anyone should be wantonly destructive, I also don't
inherently care about a given patch of desert and a
scrub bush and a and a snake and a scorpion
living there. I mean, it's I don't have I don't
have care for that, even though you could say I
would like nothing bad to happen to them for no

(02:22:52):
good reason. You know, that's that's definitely where I'm at.
But yes, yeah, anyway, so that's syndrome. Quote, if you
care about everything, you care about nothing because you have
to put you have to rank order some things exact,
and if your family and friends are not more important
to you, there's a problem in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (02:23:06):
So that's that's very I mean, that's that's very traditional thinking.

Speaker 6 (02:23:10):
It's very well, you're a pretty heavy conservative side, which
is funny because I consider myself someone with one foot
planted on both sides of the progress tradition gap. Now
there's a lot of people who are naturally more conservative,
naturally more progressive. Fair enough, we need them both, I
don't think now the extreme extremes are rigidity and chaos,
and it's like neither one of those is good either.

(02:23:31):
We need we need loyal opposition that works to figure
out the necessary balance, that thin line between are we change,
are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater as
far as tradition goes, or are we refusing to embrace
a positive change because we're we don't want to, we
don't like it, we don't realize it's necessary. A lot

(02:23:52):
of like so, I I'd say in the last I mean,
I have a healthy conservative streak, but I'd say in
the last ten, fifteen, whatever or years, I have been
more of a vocal advocate for conservative perspectives because in
America specifically, I think the left has been too has
had too much power control, and has gone off the rails.

(02:24:15):
So I'm not defending that as much as I like.
In the these or early early two thousands, even I
was a little more on the left side of some
arguments because to me, they're like you take if you
take the example from the from the nineties, we had
Al Gore and his wife, Tipper, and Tipper Gore was
the one who got record companies to put explicit warning

(02:24:37):
labels not for kids on CDs and albums, and that
was because they were and this was democrats in America,
the left holding committees on the moral implications of exposing
children to gangster rap lyrics and different sexual and violence,
which is something worth considering, you know, but now can

(02:24:59):
agree with dot now the modern left is. So I
was on the left on that argument. I was on
I was to the left of Al Gore and his wife,
the Democrats in power, you know, or at least part
of the Bill Clinton Democrat White House. I was to
the left of them, saying, I don't think you should
be controlling what we're allowed to buy. And then they
struck the compromise, Well, we'll put a warning parental advisory

(02:25:19):
sticker on it, and that was a I'm like, okay,
you warned parents, parents are in control. You've accomplished the mission.
It's not a bad thing to give people more information.
But so I was very anti sensor. Well, now the
left has become the in America has become pro censorship.
We can't let speak people have free speech because the
Holocaust will happen again. I'm like, okay, now I'm on
the concert conservative side of things, where we need a

(02:25:42):
lot more free speech than that. That's not a good
minds of things, saying what was right, what was left?
It's flipped, Yeah, changes a lot. Yeah. Well, now the
Republican part of your people like, oh, you're gay coman
and we don't care anymore. It's they used to be
very much that's a sin against nature and God. You
can't allow that, and now we don't care. I mean,

(02:26:03):
it's not just and it's a libertarian I never cared,
like whatever, it's.

Speaker 2 (02:26:06):
Not just the polls that are shifting. There's a there,
like I mean, every everything is just you know, what
what is up is down, what is left is right.
You know, abnormal is normal, gay is straight. It's like
everything is the opposite yet somehow it is the same
and it should be celebrated. But at the same time,

(02:26:29):
don't celebrate it too much. That's why I.

Speaker 6 (02:26:36):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 (02:26:38):
See even he thinks to say where and he's a cat,
like Gofi, he says.

Speaker 6 (02:26:42):
Damn right, yeah no, but cats understand freedom, they value
it highly. Can touch me when I don't want to
be touched, feed me when I'm hungry, let me outside
sometimes you go outside or no, Yeah, he does, he does. Okay,
I used to have cats that let outside, and I've
been doing that less and less just because I worry
about him. You know, I don't want him going over
the things and getting him by this.

Speaker 2 (02:27:04):
I mean, he is a Tommy is a he's a
tough guy at a big soft tea.

Speaker 6 (02:27:09):
So you know he can he knows how to say
out of trouble. Well he's still alive, he must so.

Speaker 2 (02:27:14):
Or he's just very good at you know, I mean, yeah,
getting out of trouble or surviving.

Speaker 6 (02:27:23):
Out of trouble again.

Speaker 2 (02:27:23):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but he has. He has
survived me for the past five years, so that's something, right. No, so,
uh geez two and it's again two and a half
hours again do.

Speaker 6 (02:27:36):
A half hours? Yeah, I can say I think I
think I'm running out of brain. Juice in my ass
is starting to get sore. I should probably get him
walk around and.

Speaker 2 (02:27:42):
I still have to have dinner.

Speaker 6 (02:27:44):
Yeah right, Oh that's right. He came home and got
right got right into this. No, well, we can definitely
do it again. I've got a video game stream to
get ready for and I got to check this. Uh right,
as I was jumping into the chat with you here,
I had taken that gunga Din song I don't even
know finish. I finished telling that story. Well, it's gonna
be an Americana kind of up tempo country.

Speaker 2 (02:28:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:28:06):
Yeah, because the way it's the way it's written. It's
a guy who's speaking in a very the way he's
punctuated it, you can tell it's a lower class British
kind of Cockney accent. Ye, he says, you know, he
gave me urfa point that that kind of speaking tone.

Speaker 2 (02:28:23):
You can hear.

Speaker 6 (02:28:23):
So that's definitely gonna be a heavy Southern American accent,
not pronouncing the g's on n M words type of
type of singing style. So I'm excited to go, what
what has Sooner produced? It's been sitting there un listened
to this whole time, Like, I'm kind of excited to
go check that out too. Yeah, no, you you go
do that. It's gonna be a great song you won't

(02:28:45):
hear for a couple of months.

Speaker 2 (02:28:45):
So I need to figure out when I'm having for dinner.
I mean it's a it's a quarter or two midnight
in the meantime.

Speaker 6 (02:28:52):
Might be pizza, pocket time, something in the microwave. I
do that a lot.

Speaker 2 (02:28:55):
I don't have. I don't have anything to micro I
think have pizza, tostinos, pizza rolls.

Speaker 6 (02:29:02):
I had some of those the other day. They were
so good now that I want them again.

Speaker 2 (02:29:06):
I don't think they have something like that. I mean
what we have it's more Indomesian, I believe.

Speaker 6 (02:29:12):
I mean that's that's that's.

Speaker 2 (02:29:13):
Like one good thing of you know, being multicultural, you
you are exposed to different types of food. That is
not to say that you know they should come here,
just because of the different types of food.

Speaker 6 (02:29:25):
You know, I do one or two, one or two
to bring their food with them. That's fine.

Speaker 2 (02:29:28):
Yeah, you know, I'm not gonna get like the different spices,
not just pepper and salts, but you know a lot
of different spices as well. It's like, okay, you know keeps.

Speaker 6 (02:29:36):
That's one of the funniest That's one of the funniest
things about Like in America, there's a there's a people
of colored thing that they say, oh, white people don't
know how to spice their food. I'm like, mist you know,
we fought wars for hundreds of years over spices. We
entries to get spices. Don't talk to me, yeah, I
mean in in.

Speaker 2 (02:29:55):
We've even like mates, like just whole sayings with them,
you know, like worthier souls or here in the Netherlands,
bayer deer like as expensive as pepper, because apparently that
was which is the expensive back in the day.

Speaker 6 (02:30:09):
Once upon a time, Once buon a time, like I said,
we were fighting wars over pepper. We were we were like,
we need spicy food, let's go kill those people. Well
they did.

Speaker 2 (02:30:16):
Yeah, I mean that's like, that's that's one of the
main things that we brought over, like the Dutchies India
company we went to in Sure, we went to the East,
what do we bring back? I mean a whole lot
of freaking spices. And then everyone other, like everyone back
home was like, oh shit, this is good man.

Speaker 6 (02:30:32):
Possibly another discussion for another time, because we keep trying
to say goodbye, but both of us can't stop talking.
Was it it was the Dutch that became the Afrikaans,
right they settled the yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:30:41):
Or was it no? That was that was the Dutch.

Speaker 6 (02:30:44):
And that's not yeah? Yeah? Was that the that's your
your people used to be Now they're they're certainly now
they're they're their own people. Yeah. I just want to
make sure I was getting the country of origin because
I couldn't.

Speaker 2 (02:30:59):
Those were the Dutch and Afrikaans. If if you really,
if you really try, and they you know, they they
slow it down a little, you can almost kind of
make out what they're saying. I can, actually I can
there it is because it is like since people.

Speaker 6 (02:31:15):
That speak some Spanish or German or whatever thrown in,
I can kind of make it out.

Speaker 2 (02:31:20):
Sometimes it is, well, it used to be Dutch because
we left and they they actually did well on, like,
you know, America and the brit Sleep left them alone.
They were like, okay, you got your independence, and now
look what you don't want the country.

Speaker 6 (02:31:37):
Yeah. Another another thing about those people is like they
didn't displace anyone. They they went to empty land and
built cities and and then just kind of did their
own thing. And then other people that were local came
to live with them because they're like, oh, look they
got a city, let's let's go live there. Yeah. And
then that's when the thing was, it looks.

Speaker 2 (02:31:54):
A whole lot nicer, the technology is a lot better,
they don't look like they're starving, they don't have to
get they can grow their own ship. Makes life a
whole lot easier and a whole lot better. Let's go
live with them and I can.

Speaker 6 (02:32:06):
Yeah, I mean, it's my perspective the the Afrikaans did
nothing wrong in anything, you know. So and actually I
think Trump just extended to the boer out there refugee
status like hey, if you good, feel like your life
is a danger and you want to get the hell
out of there because it is, come firm in the Midwest,
Come come to California. Whatever. The great subject to get

(02:32:27):
into the history of it, so maybe maybe another.

Speaker 2 (02:32:29):
I mean just Dutch history, hell like Dutch colonial history.

Speaker 6 (02:32:33):
Cheesus Okay, such a tiny country that went everywhere. I
mean relative to the size of other countries around you.
I mean you look at that that that thumbprint next
to the you know.

Speaker 2 (02:32:42):
I mean any Dutch East India company or very successful.
The company was the first multi national, had its own
private army, was basically more powerful than any kingdom.

Speaker 6 (02:32:57):
Just think, damn it. They started the globalist ship. Sorry,
well the English did it? We all done on behalf
of the Dutch you oe, Alex Alex Jones and a polity.

Speaker 2 (02:33:09):
No, but it's it's so funny. It's like, oh, the
King of Spain doesn't want us to do this. Here,
here's a bag of money. Let tell him to shut
the fuck up. King of Spain says yeah, like they like, don't,
don't go do this, don't. I think I think more
of what America needs to do is rather than this
is just based on that like kings of Quins, we

(02:33:31):
still also have the ability is as our federal government
to give out letters of mark and reprisal. So instead
of invading and other country, I think we should just
put bounties on the head of certain people that are
like really bad dudes, I mean, and then hey, maybe
the locals, maybe they pick up that letter of market reprisal,
they take care of the bad dude and they get
paid for it. I think that's how we could deal
with the cartels in Mexico too. We don't have to

(02:33:53):
go down there with our troops. We don't have to
invade with our army, we don't have to drop bombs
on them. We just put out a bounty on the
head of the cartel. Then someone can come collect the
payday or do what else the prize or did you
know take their example. Okay, yeah, like holy shit, MS
thirteen and it's pretty much not a thing anymore.

Speaker 6 (02:34:10):
Yeah, now, the only I mean being the question everything
contrary and that I am sometimes I'm like, I hope
he didn't sweep up too many innocent people when he
did that. Probably not. I mean, I think most of
the folks he got were in the gangs and well
known to be violent, and he dealt with those people.
We have a little different thing.

Speaker 2 (02:34:28):
In Americas of like different interviews, and that's like also
usually how the gangs work, Like you don't get the tattoo,
you don't get the representation if you're not in the gang,
you know, yeah, and then you.

Speaker 6 (02:34:41):
Just up with the tattoo. You're you're pretty good.

Speaker 2 (02:34:43):
Yeah yeah, and you have to you have to have
killed for it, Like that's the initiation. Like you kill,
you get the tattoo, which means you're in the gang.
Or well, I guess the other way around. For the league,
it's like, and anyone kills, you're in the gang, you
get the tattoo, which means you one of us.

Speaker 6 (02:35:01):
Yeah. And if you're an American or international citizen so
to speak, above of another not American country, sure you
want Yeah, what am I trying to say? If you
don't think Mexican cartels and other very dangerous groups need
to be dealt with, you got to see some of
the videos that are out there. I cannot recommend it,
but if you search for a video called funky Town,

(02:35:22):
you will know why we need to deal with that.
I have only seen a description of it. I have
not watched the video because I won't do that to myself.
But if you have any doubts about whether some very
bad dudes that really need to be taken care of
and cannot be allowed to just continue hurting people. Watch
some of those videos that are out there, I mean
of pretty horrible things, and they do it kind of
for fun. What was was one story I heard that

(02:35:44):
the cartel would have a thing like where they'd throw
a big party with a bunch of hookers and then
they would just kill them all at the end of
the night for fun, take them in the basement and
do horrible things. I mean, these are not good people
that I wouldn't mind if bad things happened to them,
because that's their idea. That shouldn't that shouldn't happen to anybody. Yep, anyway,
I should go that's it all. Just start saying progressively
crazier things.

Speaker 2 (02:36:04):
That's how you know it's the end of the show, right,
So yeah, I mean, thank you for coming on. We
touched on.

Speaker 6 (02:36:12):
Everything everything I don't which. The only thing we left
out was the kitchen's sake next time.

Speaker 2 (02:36:18):
Yeah, I'll be using it to, you know, make dinner.

Speaker 6 (02:36:20):
Of course. Well that was I mean to to kind
of bring it around full circle. We started with the
idea of you know, what is a what is a
fake God? And in that way it you know, you
could look at it from a biblical lens. What is
a false idol? What is giving your faith or belief
to something that is not true and does not produce
good results? And we kind of talked to and that
opens the door to everything. What do you believe? How
do you engage with the world, What are the good

(02:36:40):
outcomes you you want to see? And how do you
achieve them? Kind of it all start. I think it
all starts with it with questioning our faith are what
do I believe and why? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:36:50):
And then we also came to the conclusion that tribalism
and having tribal land or tribal patches of lands true
enclaves in.

Speaker 6 (02:36:58):
America might be good reservation. Save the red Heads. That's
that's my message we should come away with.

Speaker 2 (02:37:04):
This should start we saved the red Heads.

Speaker 6 (02:37:07):
You know, for sure, do your part. No, but this
has been a it has been.

Speaker 2 (02:37:13):
A most most fascinating chat for well two This is
before editing, of course, so two hours forty two at the.

Speaker 6 (02:37:24):
Moment, we just lapped the whole thing. I've done bother me.
I'm fine with it. However, however you want to do it,
so I I like, just do.

Speaker 2 (02:37:32):
Basic basic editing like I don't. I don't cut a
whole lot out just you know, the what is it
like the filler words and shore the longer pauses to
just make it a consistent hole. But I never cut
out more than I mean.

Speaker 6 (02:37:49):
It's all part of that producer's craft. We were talking
about two yeah, yeah, no exactly finding the right mix.
So yeah, I mean, dude, like like your stuff real quick.
Then oh yeah, I'm a guy. So at the bottom
of the screen there probably you'll see it, says uh
Benjamin the dream Wizard dot com. You can also uh
you know, find me of course at Benjamin the dream
Wizer on YouTube and my music channel at real AI

(02:38:14):
Radio where all those songs are. I got books about dreams,
I do video game streams. I need I need ah
now that just Bryan, I got books about dreams and
video game streams. Maybe I need to write a song
or a poem when I this off nothing, when I
still can't up goodbye? But one more thing, right? What

(02:38:36):
Every every day, every day I open up my my
video game streams with a toast, and it's it's bringing
a bunch of different ways of toasting from different languages.
I don't know if you've seen at the beginning. Yeah,
it's uh, let's say it's uh, it's I pros it
there gonna be like nostrovia conpi salude, cheers to you,
and here's mudd in your eye, and it just brings

(02:38:57):
all those together. So wherever you're at in the world,
I'm saying cheers to you in your own hopefully there's
too many languages, But I okay all of that to
say that when I'm plugging my stuff, I should come
up with a poem that says all the things in
rhymes and then I can memorize that and it'll be
a lot that won't be rambling as much. So anyway,
that's me, that's my stuff. I'm out there. You can
find me. Don't follow me on Twitter. I say crazy shit,

(02:39:18):
or do if you're into nuts, or do if you're
into that yet I mean that fits you off though, Yeah,
I mean that's that's one of the traits of a wizards.

Speaker 2 (02:39:25):
You know, he says crazy shit sometimes.

Speaker 6 (02:39:27):
I know, be quite so sure you know exactly what
a wizard's up to, even he doesn't know what he's
up to half the time. That's that's for sure. That's it, right,
I trust my gut. I just go with it. I
don't know why I'm doing this with this, this is
what I need to do. Well, thank you for having me.
I appreciate it. It's always always going to talk to you.

Speaker 2 (02:39:43):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, I still need to like plug my stuff.
I have shit going on as well.

Speaker 6 (02:39:49):
Oh yeah, do it?

Speaker 1 (02:39:50):
Do it?

Speaker 5 (02:39:51):
So?

Speaker 2 (02:39:51):
Uh yeah, thank you everyone for watching. Thank you everyone
for uh for listening. Thank you for uh for sticking
with us on this. Uh like again like Rambly sites Tangent, uh,
you know, Hopscotch kind of episodes. But I mean that's

(02:40:12):
that's just what happens when you have someone who is
you know, who is as awesome as as Ben Like.
I mean, there's a reason why it's like two hours
forty five at the moment. It's not because you know,
we don't have anything to talk about. I mean we
can go for like another two hour forty five.

Speaker 6 (02:40:28):
Probably. I'm not a hero. It's just what I do
callbacks the best man.

Speaker 2 (02:40:35):
Yeah. So I guess you know, if if you want
to be my personal hero, god, I should like que
Enriy Guglecia's hero. Like at this point, it's such a
bat song, you know, go Christ, I'm trying.

Speaker 6 (02:40:49):
To come on man. Greyhorn Pagans dot com.

Speaker 2 (02:40:53):
Yeah yeah, that is of course the website Greyhorn Pagans
dot com where you can find everything that we do
with the Tribe of the Grand Pagan's Ground Pagans podcast
Growth of Odin is where you can find the merchandise.
It's where you can find the Patreon Patreon dot com
first as Gronart Pagans, where all the episodes, including this one,
will of course air a week early, well week in

(02:41:15):
a day early, because I'm not like airing a new
episode on Patreon and on YouTube on the same day.
Don't worry, I'm not going to make you choose. No worries.
At the time that this airs, I should be well
on my way with the new series that I'm doing
with the WAFI all about cryptids, cryptids and land Feeteer,

(02:41:40):
all the amazing beings from around the world. Our first
episode is going to be the Cabouters or the laprech
On the Cobalts however you want to however you want
to call them, so look for those videos. Other than
that's big thank you to the channel sponsor. W w

(02:42:01):
is a it's an energy drink, but without the jitters,
without the without the caffeine crash. I've been drinking it
for a few days now that I'm like also working
part time again, just you know, doing a grocery delivery
es until I can start doing security again. It really
helps me, helped me through the day. It helps keep

(02:42:24):
my my energy levels up without the crash of like
a Monster energy drink or a Red Bull. This is
so much better. So if you go to w dot
gg and use code stein Fox ten, you can get
ten percent off everything of your entire basket, whatever it
is that you wish to choose, and of course also

(02:42:44):
a major thank you to shop Reclaim Repurpose. And they're
amazing nevitaphal set or Viking Chess. As Ben gets attacked
by his cat.

Speaker 6 (02:42:56):
He wants to play a good time.

Speaker 2 (02:42:58):
This is happening, Yeah, amazing, Never Tuble said Viking Chess
a awesome two player strategy game Chess as our ancestors
used to play. It all handmade, hand crafted, a lot
of love and a lot of where it goes into it.
So go to shop Reclaim Repurpose dot at c dot com,

(02:43:19):
show him some love and use code. What what's the
code again, I keep forgetting that one. It should be
that was it. Luckily I have it as a as
a banner stein Fox.

Speaker 6 (02:43:35):
Top of the one c f L.

Speaker 2 (02:43:40):
The wife is calling, oh dear times to wrap it
up really quick time, So shop, reclaim, repurpose, dot at
c dot com code, stein Fox tough all t a
f L for ten percent of your awesome never tuffle sets.
The owner, our creator is a good friend of mine,
good friend of the tribe, good friend of the channel.
So go show him some love. And while you're showing

(02:44:02):
everyone love, show Ben some love as well, you know,
watching with his dream stuff.

Speaker 6 (02:44:06):
What is bye bye bye kitty. He won't look you
look at the camera.

Speaker 2 (02:44:12):
Well, and I guess with all that said, the kiddy
says by, Ben says by the wife is calling. So yeah,
thank you all. Until the next time, everyone, Bye bye.

Speaker 12 (02:44:32):
This was yet another amazing episode of the Gray Horned
Pagans podcast. We thank you all for watching. We thank
you all for listening, and remember to like, share, subscribe,
and hit that notification bell so you will be notified.

Speaker 2 (02:44:49):
Whenever we upload something new.

Speaker 12 (02:44:51):
Support us on Patreon for early access and for everything
else that we do with the Tribe. For everything else
that we do with the podcast, find us on www.

Speaker 2 (02:45:02):
Mwangiains dot com.

Speaker 6 (02:45:04):
For now, we thank you that.

Speaker 2 (02:45:06):
Until next time, H

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