S07E03 - Kokomo and You Good

Back to Detroit - or at least Chicago - in this week's episode of Groundless.

Join Chris and Randy (and special guest Michael) for a look at episodes 4 and 5 of Justified City Primeval: Kokomo and You Good? In this episode of Groundless, your hosts: Become a "The O.C." podcast so gradually you barely even noticed; learn the legal distinction in Clement's style and Sweetie's style in a Law Minute; introduce a special guest with Detroit creds; appreciate the encounters with Jamal in these episodes; and try to figure out if there's some codpiece action going on in Clement's tighty whities.

Back in 2 weeks with a look at the next 2 episodes of Justified City Primeval. Until then, check us out on the socials @groundlesspod and @groundlesspodcast; e-mail us [e-mail]; and don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review - also tell a friend or family member about the show!

Thanks again to Michael Zwick our special guest, and make sure to look him up when you need a hard-boiled, devastatingly handsome, plays by no one's rules but his own (and those of the State of Florida and various professional associations) private detective for your probate property or heir search needs.

Thanks for listening!

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/groundless-a-justified-podcast--5328867/support.

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Rolling down the bull, the bloodand the speed, a bowl covid like
a tail on late Tornado, ringof primesol kits with one hand on the
grass pine he have on wheel,double riding shot gun, singing boy,

(00:30):
Let's make a deal. This isGroundless a Justified podcast. What's the podcast
where we watch every episode of Justifiedand then come on here and talk about
it. I'm Chris Batman is RandyGreetings, Greetings, indeed, and we
are back to talk about episodes fourand five of Justified City primeval episodes called

(00:54):
Kocomo and you good question mark asopposed to you good, stay meant and
uh. And we're joined this weekby Michael, who is a listener of
the podcast. Also a lawyer ora recovering lawyer, I guess I would
say, and uh, somebody whohas experienced practicing law in the in the

(01:17):
Detroit area. Thanks for joining us, Michael, welcome to the show.
Thank you, and quid to beyour big fan of the book, TV
show and the podcast. Yeah,that was gonna be my first question to
you. So you like Justify?Love it? Just finished free watching it
recently to get myself ready for aprime eagle. Okay, cool, cool,

(01:40):
and uh and so what's your Well, let me ask this, what's
who's your favorite original Justified character?Gotta be Boyd? Boyd? Yeah,
yeah, I kind of I kindof like Boyd myself. I feel the
same way. I guess I I'mliking as a person thought he was and
mostly entertaining and intriguing. Yeah,Walton Goggins really brought him to life.

(02:06):
And it's lightning in a bottle,right, And I think I think,
you know, we're seeing a littlebit of how special that kind of performance
was as we watch City Primeval andwe'll probably talk a little bit more about
that as we as we dig intothese episodes. So I was gonna say,
Michael, would you give us alittle bit of your background as far

(02:30):
as a year an attorney and justtell us, you know, like you
told us a little bit about whatyou were doing before we started recording,
but tell us a little bit aboutyour law expertise or law experience. Sure.
Well, after I went to lawschool in New York and graduated in
the mid nineties, moved back toDetroit or originally from and the practiced law

(02:51):
there for none of years, doingmostly criminal defense and some civil litigation,
and then in the early two thousandsI transitioned to what I you now,
which is working as a private investigatorfinding missing errors and probate cases and also
finding assets. So through both ofthose careers, I've spent a lot of
time in the court system throughout theDetroit area. That's fantastic. That's fantastic

(03:16):
because my experience, as far asit is, like legally blonde. So
my question to you would be,would you rather have a client in criminal
law who committed a crime mallem insor mallem prohibitive? Didn't my law school
professors put you up to that becausethat was too long ago for you to

(03:38):
remember. Let those phrases mean.It was just one of the things that
hell would had to answer it inher during the class. Yeah, first
your law class at Harvard too longago. Yeah, it's one of those
those are phrases you never use outsideof law school. Mate, you all.

(04:00):
My favorite, my favorite legal Latinphrase that nobody actually knows what it
means is mutatis mutandis throws up incontracts all the time. It's like,
okay, anyway, that was anice I just had to get that in
because we don't do enough legally blondereferences in the in the podcast. You
know what, It's funny we doenough oc references though that I don't know

(04:24):
if you saw the message we goton Twitter today or yesterday, I don't
know if it was no, notnot you, Randy. Uh. We
we got a request that when we'redone with Justified, we need to pivot
to the O c oh Man.I'm down for that. I'm so down
for that. We've talked about likehow we would do something like that,

(04:45):
and it wouldn't be like an episodeby episode sort of thing. But yeah,
I mean it's it's a it's apossibility. I suppose give the fans
what they want, we can doit, like we could do like one
season, you know, I coulddo basically the whole run the series.
I would guess, Yeah, yeah, I'm down. Well let's uh,

(05:05):
let's get it. Let's get intothese episodes, because I think that you
know, we've got we've got alittle bit of meat on the bone here
to talk about. I think ifif we were just here to talk about
Cocomo episode four, I think we'dhave a little bit of trouble filling the
time because it was it it feltvery much like a filler episode to me,
which is weird for a show that'sonly got eight episodes for it.

(05:28):
It's weird to have sort of afiller in there. But but episode five,
some stuff actually started to happen.So let's talk a little bit about
I think I think the best placeto start is probably where we started episode
four, which is with with Sandyand Clement and uh and Skender. And
so if we remember where we endedepisode three, you've got Skender at gunpoint

(05:53):
from from Clement Mansell who's asking himwhere the money is. Skender swears he
doesn't have any. And so atthe beginning of this episode, Skender gets
his leg broken by that giant panicroom door, and Mansell makes Sandy do
it, right, he makes herpush the button that closes the door because
he's busy holding his gun on Skenderand threatening him, and so Sandy's having

(06:16):
a pretty bad day. I wouldsay, from that point forward, you
know, you've got you've got thathappening. You've got her busting his leg
and I mean they have to imaginethat almost cut his leg off because that's
a big, heavy door, right, yeah, Yeah, And so you've
got her she's smoking a ton ofpot because she's very stressed. And then

(06:39):
the Albanians pull out her roommate's teethbecause they want to use her as bait
and uh, and Clement's being adick because that's kind of what he is.
But but I gotta admit that roommatereally held out though. Huh oh
yeah, well, I mean,you know, she she didn't really have
like much to hold out because shedidn't like she doesn't like Sandy very much

(07:01):
at sea. But but she's she'sdefinitely, uh, she definitely had an
attitude about the whole thing. Itwas great hearing her curse in Chinese to
the to the Albanians when they weretalking. And uh and I don't know
if it's Albanian is what they speak, but that's what they call it on
the show. But so, so, Michael, are there a bunch of

(07:23):
Albanian gangsters in Detroit? Is thata Is that a thing that comes out
of reality? So I actually wasn'tso aware that there was one, but
I did a little digging before wegot him this call. And apparently there
is a pretty good sized Albanian population. I think it is might be the

(07:43):
largest one outside of the country ofAlbania, and there was definitely some organized
crime in the Detroit area. Ittends to be more up in McCombe County,
which is to the northeast of Detroit. Okay, Detroit just for a
little bad crowns Uh not sure.Detroit is made up of really three counties,
Wayne, which were Troit as inOakland and McCombe. It's kind of

(08:07):
like the Tri County area, andthat's about four million people. So I
think the Albanians are more up inMcComb County, which is a lot of
different ethnic groups. But obviously,you know, everybody's going to do business
downtown, which is where the youknow, the hub of all activity is,
including criminal activity, right, okay, all right, yeah. I

(08:28):
wasn't sure if you maybe brushed upagainst any of it in your in your
criminal defense days, if you brushedup against any of the organized crime activity.
No, not, not really,I can't, which is not to
say that I would didn't have clientsthat were not necessarily in there. I
just it was never implicated in theircrimes if they did it, or they

(08:48):
were more freelancing. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. You associates,
not not so much the made guys, if you will, right, yeah,
okay, all right, yeah,So, so Sandy's having a bad
day. Clement though, is kindof in hog Heaven. I don't know,
you know, he we've talked abouta little bit about how he's sort
of like the Joker and he's justthriving on chaos. We we find out

(09:13):
in these episodes that well, firstof all, I have to mention the
Tighty whities. I have to mentionthat it appears that he's wearing a cod
piece of some sort under those tightywhities, right, I mean this is
not authentic like Marky Market Boogie Nightsexactly. That thing enters the room three

(09:35):
seconds before he does. I don'tknow what the deal is there. Reminds
me of like Siegfried and Roy.But yeah, we find out. So
so we had mentioned I think inthe last episode we talked about Chekhov's toaster
a little bit and why he wasso you know, protective of the toaster.

(09:56):
Well, it turns out he's gotthe Judge's journal. It's been hidden
in the toaster, and now he'sgot a new plan. Since everything failed
with Skender, thanks mostly to hisimpatience, he's He's now onto the next
scheme, which is to figure outhow to monetize the journal, and he
needs Sweetie to help him there.And uh, and so that's where I

(10:20):
guess that's where we bring Sweetie intothe conversation. He's he's unfortunately caught up
in the wordy bureaucracies of insurance.Who they tell him, because the cops
did the damage to his property,he can't claim he can't file an insurance
claim because it's not it's not acovered loss, which is I don't know,

(10:41):
I you know, do mostly corporateinsurance, so I don't look at
this closely at this sort of thing. But I think that that's probably accurate.
But you can't if the cops kickin your front door and arrest you.
I don't think you can file aninsurance claim with your homeowners insurance to
to recover for the cost of thatfront door if they wrongly. I do
know this, if they wrongly kickin your front door, you can file

(11:03):
a claim with the police and getget compensated for that. So I do
know that that does happen from timeto time. But oh, that's always
a you know, the insurance companiesnever want to pay right, so that's
all the yeah. Yeah, Andit always bothered me because when they were
the riots back in twenty twenty,like people say, oh, you have

(11:24):
insurance, but who you know,if you were a business owner, why
would you want to deal with them? Sure, you know, like if
you're if you're a store got burntdown or whatever. It just always bothered
me, like people would say,oh, you know, it's defensible because
you know, you have insurance,it'll be covered. Yeah, we've socialized
the loss, so it's perfectly okay, right, But yeah, but it's
not. You're absolutely right. Imean, you know, the state that,

(11:46):
oh, you have insurance is alittle bit of an oversimplification when you
you know, having been at theat the end of some insurance claims on
the corporate side of things for youknow, many hundreds of thousands or millions
of dollars, I will tell youthat it's not easy to get that money
out of that insurance company. They'regonna do everything they can, just like
your health insurance company, just likeyour auto carrier. They're gonna do everything

(12:07):
they can to hang on to thatmoney. Because that's that's the game,
that's the strategy. Yeah, they'replaying well, so it's also the insurance.
Even if you do get your claimpaid, the insurance company is going
to check up your premiums going forward, Yeah, or just drop you entirely.
Right. Yeah, that's that's whatwe're seeing with cyber coverage now,
is that they're just refusing to coverit because it's not profitable, or or

(12:33):
homeowners insurance in California or Florida forthat matter. Oh, is is that
the that's the new thing, becauseI know, yeah, that's what I've
heard also, that they're dropping homeownersin certain places. Yeah, I mean
State farm exited California. They're notwriting any new policies and for homeowners in
California, Farmers is doing the samething. I think all State did a

(12:56):
couple of years ago, exited California, so you know where, But I
guess in Florida, like basically everyinsurance company, I think. I think
that's where you live now, right, Michael is Florida. Yes, we
we live Orlando. We we wererenting, which we just moved down there
just recently. And that's what I'veheard from people who are have been buying

(13:18):
houses. Is very hard to getinsurance, even if you can afford the
the big prices that have been comingdown in terms of, you know,
the sticker price on the house aswell as the insurance rates on the mortgage.
That getting insurance is very difficult thesedays. Yeah, and incredibly expensive

(13:39):
too from what I hear. Sonot great, not a great situation.
And to your point, Randy,it's like you can't just say, oh,
well you have insurance, you're fine, because you're not. It's just
like anything else, it's a scam. It's all a scam. It's all
a scam. So so Sandy sellsout Sweetie. So Sweetie, you know,
gets the bad news from the insurancecompany, and Sandy shows up along

(14:01):
with Clement. Uh. You know, Clement's there to bring what he sees
as good news with them with thediary, and Sandy uh immediately sells out
Sweetie on the gun that she hidin his bar, like she's kept up
this lie and kept up this lieabout throwing it in the river. And

(14:22):
then gets to Sweeties and it's like, nope, I I hit it here.
And Sweetie asked to come queen andsay, yeah, I found it
because so the cops didn't I hitit? And uh, and what we
find out is that it's a Walterh P thirty eight World War two replica,
not a luger. I was.I was astounded to find to find
that out. I did not Idid not think that that was going to

(14:43):
be what that was. Well,I was just thinking, is the is
that weapon? Because are we talkingabout different murders here? As far as
the there's like that there was amassacre that they referenced, but then there's
there was that one incident. II think it was like the second episode
where they were all in that inthat house. Yeah, I mean we're

(15:05):
talking about different I mean there's like, so there's another murder. There's other
murders here, is that right?Yeah? The impression that I got is
that it's the same gun for bothof those murders, So that the gun
that he used to kill everyone inthe drug house is the same gun that
he used to kill the judge withand he hit it in Sweetie's bar.
I don't know, to come backand get it later or something, but

(15:28):
that's the impression that I got.And then there's a third like set of
murders also then right that Sweetie,that Sweetie like he killed some people too,
No sweets implicated in because he wasconspiring with Clement Mansell for the drug
house robbery. That's where Sweeties isimplicated. Right, So he's he's conspired

(15:50):
and he was involved, and that'sI mean felony murderer in and of itself,
even if he didn't even if hewasn't an accomplice to actual murder.
Yeah, but but yeah, soso he's, uh, he's implicated there,
and that's and and so that's whathe tries to do with with Carolyn

(16:11):
is he tries to get a dealwith the DA to give up Mansell for
those murders and the gun in additionor in addition to the murders in the
drug house. Uh, give togive up man Sell on that in exchange
for immunity. And then uh,and then when she comes back to him

(16:33):
and says, oh, yeah,I got you that deal, he's like,
oh, never mind, I don'twant to be a snitch. There's
no money in it. It's alot of bad decisions being made here by
people who are in Clement man Sell'sorbit. And that's before we even get
to Carolyn, who makes a lotof bad decisions. But uh, yeah,
we I mean we find out thatthat sweetie kind of knows everybody in

(17:00):
in Detroit, and so he isthe way through which Mansell is going to
attempt to monetize that that judge's journal. And uh, you know, I
think this is a good time.Well we'll talk a little bit about Bulldozer
Burt here in a minute. Who'sWho's David Cross? And in a wonderful

(17:22):
cameo, I love David Cross.I wish I wish that there had been
some sort of tie to Arrested Developmentthat we could have used here. I
looked and looked when I couldn't find. I couldn't find any sort of link
to use aside from aside from DavidCross being in both right, I always
think that my favorite part was himas the never nude Yes, yeah,

(17:44):
with the with the gene shorts.Yeah, there are dozens of us exactly.
So, so I also do likethat Bulldozer Bird is yet an other
in a long line of crooked realestate people. I want to know who

(18:07):
on the writing staff was wronged bysomebody in the real estate business at some
point in time, because we've hadGary, we've had uh what was his
name in season sixth there? Uhoh uh Friday night Lights guy. Yeah,
Freda Calhoun Calhoun Schreier. Yeah,we've got him. And now we
have Bulldozer Burt. So I thinksomebody, somebody got hurt at some point

(18:30):
in time. But but so theythey they worked together to extort Bulldozer Bert
or blackmail Bulldozer Burt and uh.And I figured since we had another lawyer
on the call, it'd be apretty good time for us to have a
quick law minute to talk about thedifference between extortion and blackmail. Say hello

(18:52):
to Miguel Sanchez. That's a lowblow. Blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah. I want to settle I'mnot super prepared. Oh sure, like
lawyers work in big skyscrapers and havesecretaries. I look at him, he's
wearing a belt. That's all hewent for. You. I moved for

(19:12):
a bad court thingy you mean amistrial. Yeah, that's why you're the
judge and I'm the law talking guy, the lawyer, right, I objects.
So, yeah, let's talk aboutblackmail versus extortion, because I think
a lot of people think they're essentiallythe same thing, and in some places
they are right. Blackmail tends tobe a sort of offense that is that

(19:40):
falls under the broader definition of extortion. And so just to kind of break
those out a little bit, blackmailis basically getting something from someone, getting
them to do something or give yousomething or whatever because of a threat to
reveal secret information. So the contentsof the diary are secret information or what

(20:02):
the diary represents a secret information thatSweetie thinks they're threatening to reveal, and
the consequence of that is you giveme money and I won't reveal your secrets.
That's blackmail. Extortion, however,is basically the same thing getting something
from someone, getting them do somethingor give you something, but through violence

(20:26):
or coercion or some type of threatenedviolence. So the example that I have
here, and you know, wecan talk a little bit about this.
The example I have here is thethreat to arrest someone or have them arrested.
Is the kind of example that Igive. So if if a cop,
let's say a bad cop, threatensto arrest someone in order to compel

(20:48):
a certain behavior or to get moneyout of that person, to extort a
bribe, essentially that's extortion because it'sa threat to arrest a person that's done
under color of authority. If,however, you're a citizen like Sweetie is
in this instance, and you havethis diary and you threaten to say,
hey, if if you don't payme, I'm just going to have to

(21:10):
turn this information over to the police, and who knows what's going to happen.
At that point, you're probably gonnago to jail. That is blackmail.
So you've got two different people intwo different positions doing essentially the same
thing, but one's extortion in one'sblackmail. Do you do you agree with
that? Michael, Yeah, Ido, And I would add that when
I was practicing law, one ofthe things I was told very early on,

(21:37):
when you're negotiating and to say acivil lawsuits debt, to say either
settle lawsuits for this amount or I'mgoing to go to the police is blackmail.
So you have you. When Iwas negotiated trying to negotiate a settlement,
I was always very careful not tocross that line to say accept this

(21:57):
offer or or you know, makesus a reasonable offer, or I'm going
to police three report what you've done. Guess then I'm that now I will
have committed to claim. So yeah, yeah, you definitely get the thing.
And I should add, by theway, thank you for including Lionel
Huts in this whole episode, becauseyou know, that's where you learn a

(22:18):
lil off from Lionel Huts. That'sabsolutely right. Every the entire foundation of
my practice is built on Lionel Huts. So yeah, my favorite TV lawyer
ever ri Ip Phil Hartman. Soyeah. So it's uh, it's an
interesting it's an interesting sort of distinction. And we see it also with Carolyn,

(22:40):
right because Carolyn has the light bulbcoming on kind of at the end
of the second episode here when shegets her hands on the journal and looks
somebody up who you know, wesuspect as probably her arrival for the judge's
seat, and gets it in herhead that hey, maybe she can blackmail
this person to end up the judgeand to end up with her as the

(23:02):
judge instead. So so we seethe kind of differing approach. And man
Sell, he's all about the threatsof physical violence. He's all about the
extortion, right, that that's whatgets him out of bed in the morning.
Man Sell is not content to blackmailanyone. He gets off on the
violence. Yeah, I think theproblem with Mansell and I don't know if

(23:26):
this is the right time to bringit up, is that, you know,
somebody like that. It seems tome that he would come across somebody
who was prepared for that for youknow, him to be that impulsive to
be that, you know, helike he should have gotten got already.
It is my thing. You wouldthink he would have either been killed or

(23:47):
arrested by this point, right,yeah, yeah, that's it. And
so I mean he wasn't He wasreleased from jail. I guess is that
prison? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, she got him out. Yeah,
So I don't know. It justseems to me like somebody like that,
he'd already have like a maybe peoplealready in line to you know, like
have a meeting with him, youknow, yeah, exactly. There'd be

(24:10):
a whole list of people who arelooking to get him as soon as he
gets out of prison, right assoon as he's no longer under protection,
that it's time to time to takeout Mansell. Yeah. Yeah. He's
also kind of a scary guy,right, I mean, he's unpredictable,
he's capricious, so you know,you gotta worry about being around him.
So maybe, you know, peoplekind of look at it like kind of

(24:33):
I think how Sweetie did, whichis if he's gone, it's good.
I'm not going to try and bringmyself back into that orbit because that's chaos
and I don't like where that goes. And then you just kind of get
sucked back into it when he showsup. Yeah. Yeah, well,
even the even the cops as weas we find out in the next episode,

(24:55):
you know, that's their play likewith the Bulgaria or is it this
episode it's it's both of them inone. I don't really I can't remember
exactly what's between one and what's inthe other. But yeah, him,
you know, the cop, Detroitcop is saying, hey, you know,
if we uh you know, wereveal this this information about who the
suspect is to to the Godfather,the Alma Albania Toma, yes, you

(25:21):
know, that kind of puts themon the on the hunt for him too,
kind of doing their work for forthe police basically. Yeah, and
I that's an interesting kind of let'stalk about that point because that's an interesting,
uh plot point for me. II see it as that's a very
sort of Raylan thing to do,Like I think about, you know,

(25:42):
because Rayland gets very unhappy with Norbertafter he does that. But but I
immediately thought of like season one,episode three, right, the fixer with
uh, with the the bookie guyand the guy who wants to have the
quick drock petition with Raylan in thebackyard. Yeah, like that's what he

(26:03):
does. He basically lies to eachof the criminals in succession about the reward
money and how much there is andwhy he's there and all of that,
and in order to get them tosort of turn on and betray each other.
And it has the desired outcome,it has the desired consequence, and
he ends up, you know,getting them. But he's very judgy of

(26:26):
what Norbert does here. Yeah.Yeah, And it's almost I don't know,
you know, maybe it's because ofthe passage of time and what he's
been doing for the past in thisfrom the series end, the last series
end to this, where maybe hehas mellowed in his age. I guess,
I don't I don't know. Imean, it just seems out of

(26:48):
as you're saying, Judge, youknow, like you shouldn't be throwing glass
if you're living in a glass house, should be throwing stones those stones.
I you know, there's a parent, I was gonna say, I was
gonna I think we've seen some definitedifferences in Raylan. One being, you
know, as you said in theshow, was justified that all he cared

(27:10):
about was ending in the criminality.He didn't really care whether it ended with
a guy you know, in thegrave or behind bars. He didn't really
care how it got down, aslong as he got done. And he
already's clearly a little more you know, buy the book. I think we
also see it in his choice ofromantic partners, a little more sophisticated here,

(27:33):
you know, I'm evil than itdid in the show. Sure,
yeah, yeah, yeah they're not. They're not foxy grifters, Jackie like
Jackie Nevada, oh yea social workersor yeah. Now, they're just like
attorneys who are could be compromised.So, you know what, I'm glad

(27:55):
you brought up the relationship between Raylanand Carolyn. I think it's a good
opportunity to talk a little bit moreabout this here. Right, what do
we know about Raylan? Raylan can'tresist the damsel in distress. So when
he finds out that the Albanians orwhen he realizes that the Albanians are probably
going to go after Carolyn. Heattempts to impress upon her that this is

(28:15):
a very dangerous situation. Man sellsdifferent. So they have this moment in
her office, and then he showsup at her house after she calls him
because she's being tailed by the Albanians. He runs them off, and then
he tails her home and waits outsideher house. She brings some bourbon out

(28:36):
blah blah blah, and they havethese moments where in her office and then
in his car that I that i'dcalled chemistry free, like entirely chemistry free
moments that are supposed to be veryovertly laden with the sexual tension Vulture when
I read I read a review ofone of these episodes, and Vulture called

(28:56):
it pleasantly languid sexual tension, andI call it, I call it just
unconvincing. Right, what do youguys think of that? Well, given
go ahead, go ahead, Randy, Oh, I was gonna say,
certainly, you knows, as you'resaying, his taste maybe are more sophisticated,

(29:19):
But I think it's almost like it'sforced, as you're saying, like
chemistry chemically language. Was that whatthey said? Pleasantly languide I said,
unconvincing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you're on the right track,
Chris. I'm sorry, go ahead, Michael. No. I was
just gonna say, obviously we havethis tenure gap between what you know,

(29:41):
Raylan in Kentucky and Raylan and Detroit. But like say, you know,
there's there's the difference between his tasteand women, which you know was basically,
you know, thin, very attractive, not the sharpest tool in the
shed women. And then Carolyn isobviously different in many different ways, and

(30:04):
I guess the you know, jumpinto bed with her like for one night,
it was more of the afterwards thathe seems to still have feelings for
her, wanted to clearly want therelationship with her. That was the more
inconsu thing to me. Yeah,I see what you're saying. I see
what you're saying, and it's it'sit's such a weird sort of relationship for

(30:26):
them to have too, because it'sincredibly dangerous, I would say for both
of them. Right, Raylan's beendown this road before with Ava and and
almost with what's her name, theredhead from from the mining company, right
where he's essentially taking business and mixingit with pleasure, and in this particular

(30:51):
instance, I think it could getboth of them in an awful lot of
trouble because we know that, youknow, Carolyn has a duty of loyalty
to our client, and you knowshe's after he gives her the sausage,
she's you know, potentially going togive up some information about Mansell to him,
which would probably, I mean almostcertainly, if it wasn't directly related

(31:18):
to a crime that was going tobe committed in the immediate future, would
almost certainly result in a breach ofattorney client privilege and and her you know,
losing her law license, right right. But but at the same time,
I think she's also crossed a wholebunch of other attorney epics issues.
The fact that she seems to berepresenting Sweetieu and Clemence, who if they

(31:41):
don't have currently a conflict of interestsooner later, will you know, whenever
you have co defendants in a criminaltrial, each one has their own attorney.
Yeah, and if so, youknow, I think she definitely is
playing fast and loose with a lotof attorney ethics rule even before this.

(32:04):
Yeah, and and surprising, especiallywhen you consider the fact that her partner
her ex husband, who we findout, you know, later in the
in the episode uh embezzled from herand broke a bunch of attorney ethics rules
himself. Interesting to see her kindof going down that same path, just
in a slightly different way, notstealing money, but but compromising or morals

(32:28):
at the very least. Yeah.You know, what is funny that you
mentioned the husband, because I likeit. I get the impression, and
this is part of them being married, I suppose, is that there is
more chemistry between her and the exhusband than Raylan and Carolyn. Yeah,
you know, just like more inthe in the scenes that they're they're especially

(32:49):
in that scene where they're at atthe end of this last episode or that
whatever, you know, whether the're at whether where she and Jamal are
at his apartment. Yeah, Imean that's a very depressing and I thought
it was a very That was probablyone of the better scenes so far in
this uh in this series that we'veseen. So yeah, I think we

(33:10):
got to see uh A jan AEllis actually do a little bit of acting
in that scene, and I wasI was pretty happy with that. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, So so acouple of things here, I think
I think that the issue may actuallybe so I started as I was watching

(33:31):
this, and you know, uhRachel said the same thing. She's like,
Man, I don't buy this relationshipfor a second, And I went
on the reddit I was, Iwas looking for an answer to a different
question, and I stumbled across thelive episode discussion thread and holy crap,

(33:52):
I figured, it's as good atime as I need to bring this up
because we're talking about this. Butman, people are are mean on that
reddit. They are people are meanon the internet. Yeah, I know
that. Yeah, I figured,you know, oh, it's justified reddit,
like people would be people would becool or whatever. Not so much
like there is a sizable contingent.It's not a it's not a massive number

(34:15):
of people, but there's a sizablecontingent of people who are seriously taking issue
with this because she's bigger than uhWinona and in terms of weight, and
there's a ton of like quote unquotefat shaming going on, and there's people
who are taking issue with the raceof the character also, And I guess

(34:39):
apparently that started when they announced whothe actors were for the show, because
in the books, to be fair, in the books Carolyn Wilder is white,
but that doesn't matter. Like itwas like, I don't know the
actress is not white, but Idon't know it's correctly the character in Primeval

(35:01):
because Primeval has got a really givenbook. It was Elmore Letter and it
was I think, I want tosay hispanic, Yeah, yeah, the
guy who yeah, right, Soso it was hispanic and white. Now
you have white and block so whatever, yeah, whatever, exactly. Yeah,

(35:22):
I was. I was very surprisedto see that people were so worked
up about to the point where peopleare making some really inappropriate comments and getting
moderated and everything else. I was. I was very surprised to see that.
I will also say, and wecan talk. I think it's a
good opportunity to talk a little bitabout this. How are you guys feeling
about the show? Kind of overallat this point in the season, we've

(35:44):
got three episodes left. As Isaid, I thought the fourth episode felt
a little bit slow. The fifthepisode things started to happen, it felt
like, But but I feel likewe've got a lot of ground to cover
before we can wrap up the season, and we've only got three episodes left
to do it. And I thinkthe Pacings a little bit off. I
don't know how you guys feel.Oh, I rand to go first.

(36:09):
I was gonna say that I thinkthat it might be as as as Michael
was talking about the they're basically insertingRailing into this story and maybe they shouldn't
have. Maybe it should they shouldhave just made this like, oh,
it's not even Justified, it's justlike Elmore Leonard uh series and and and

(36:30):
kept Railing out and cast somebody elseas as ray Crush for the lead.
I mean that might have been thatmight have even been better in certain ways.
Yeah, because I agree, itdoesn't it it's definitely starting to not
feel a ton like Justified to me. But I think that that's again,

(36:53):
you can't take a character like Railingand just pick him up out of out
of Harlan County and stick him intoDetroit and say, oh, it's the
same show. You have to expectthat there's going to be differences to the
show. Raylan has evolved, aswe've discussed over ten or fifteen years whatever.
That's fine too, but it doesit does not there is an element

(37:16):
where it doesn't feel like the sameshow from time to time. I will
say that then there's elements. There'stimes where it very much feels like the
same show, like when they're beatingus over the head with the Ray Raylan
thing at the end of the episode, and it's like, oh, yeah,
he's ray and this is Raylan.And the guy in the book's name
is ray and this is Raylin,and oh look, Ray Cruz kind of

(37:38):
did Raylan things in the past andnow Raylan is judging him for it.
But it felt a little it wasa little heavy handed on the part of
the writers. But you know,sometimes you've got to do that because the
audience doesn't always get it on thefirst look. Yeah, it has a
little streams, like a fish outof water story can sometimes work. It's

(38:04):
just not here And maybe just becausewe're so used to the world of Justified,
you know, you know that beforewe got on the call, I
was in Detroit for a few daysor Elier. This week. Now I'm
in Kentucky, so I'm traversing thevarious worlds of Raylan Givens this week.
And there's definitely a difference between justculturally and the field of eastern Kentucky versus

(38:30):
Detroit. I type first hand forboth of those and they're just in real
life, those two places have verydifferent feels to them, and I think
they're still trying to find their footingin the Detroit world. That and it

(38:51):
could just be the burdens on usas audience that were biased by what we've
already experienced with the Justified world.It's kind of interesting. It's you know,
Elmore Leonard is originally from Detroit.A lot of the stuff takes place
in Detroit, and they get agreat job with say out of Sight,
which takes place in Detroit, youknow, excellent movie. I think you

(39:14):
guys have referenced this in the showbefore, and I think they're just they're
having a problem. Either they're havinga problem or we as an audience or
having a problem of accepting it.It's just a different show. Yeah,
And I think they actually they didkind of make that clearer. They said,
we don't see this as season seven, are Justified. I think it's

(39:36):
whatever season number it should be,we an't see this season seven just so
we see this as a different show, just with a character moving from ones
the other. Yep. Yeah,I agree with that completely. And that
doesn't and that's the thing that Ithink is the difference between kind of how
I feel about the show and whatI saw on Reddit about the how the
people who I would call detractors feelabout the show, which is there are

(40:00):
a lot of people on there saying, Oh, this feels like a generic
boilerplate cop show. You could youknow if this were an episode of Law
and Order, you never would haveknown the difference, And I disagree with
that very strongly. I think thewriting for this show is still very strong.
I think the characters are interesting andthere's some depth to them. I

(40:21):
think we're finally getting to see someof that depth to the characters that you
don't get on a typical procedural copshow. But at the same time,
they're they're a little bit I thinkthey're a little bit right because it doesn't
feel like justified, So they're they'resort of analogizing it to the thing that

(40:43):
they're most familiar with to analogize ittoo, when when the reality is it's
as you said, Michael, it'sbasically a new show with the same or
similar writers and one character who's thesame character there's been There's been a lot
of shows like this in the past, right, like Charles in Charge.

(41:06):
If I can mention Charles in Chargewith spinoff of of Happy Days ultimately,
right, I mean if you ifyou track it back, it's happy It's
Happy Days, right, No,Joony loves Chucks you somebody get the play
that bumper, Charlton Charlton Charge takesplace of twenty some years after Happy Day.

(41:29):
Okay, all right, well okay, so John j Happy and there
was another spinoff from Happy Days.I think it was, well at least
it was the same universe. Itwas Lebernon Shirley too, right, and
yeah, so so those might beactually better examples of what I'm talking about,

(41:50):
Right, this is sort of likea railing given spinoff. Well,
I would say a better analogy,wouldn't be they yeah, the Ropers,
Oh yeah, yes, perfect,Yeah when you when you said that,
the Jefferson's popped in my head too, which is basically yeah, well,
well, well all the family hada bunch of spin offs just they had

(42:12):
Jefferson's had Maud, oh yeah,yeah, and then the Golden Girls was
a spinoff of Maud. Right,now, not get that bumper of being
wrong. Now the Ropers, andnow was there a did Jack Tripper or
John Ritter also have a show alsospin off from Three Company too? Or

(42:36):
is that I think The Ropers wasthe only spin off on Three Company.
I'm correct, Well, our listenerswill definitely correct us if we're not correct.
So if the rope if there isanother Three Company spin off, I
don't know, the Andy Griffith Showor whatever. Maybe maybe you also you

(42:57):
also would you know a Joey afterAfter Friends Joey Yeah, talten about Joey
and he went out to La tobe an actor or something like that,
right, and it was the SopranosAdriana Yeah. Yeah. Oh man,
Well, this is sort of tantsamount to like if if we think about,
you know, like kind of analogizingthis to one of the other great

(43:21):
shows of the of the two thousands, if if Tony Soprano had gotten his
own spinoff, like say Tony goesinto Witness Protection and they do they do
a spinoff series about Tony Soprano oryou know Tom Tom Stevenson in Topeka,

(43:42):
Kansas or whatever. That's sort ofthat's sort of what this feels like.
But you had the same writers andkind of the same quality of content.
It's just not the same. That'sfair, just not the same And so
all right, let's see what elsewe've got here. So we've got Norbert

(44:02):
and Maureen. We talked about alittle bit. They did mention the Beverly
Hills cop thing, which I thinkRandy we forgot to mention on the podcast,
but I mentioned in the description ofthe podcast last week because we talked
about how the red light green lightthing that Clement Mansall pulls to drop the
tail. It's the same thing thathappens to Tim with with Darryl Crowe Jr.

(44:25):
In season five. It's literally likeexactly the same thing, but it
also happened in Beverly Hills Cop too, And I remembered that when I was
writing the episode description. I putit in there, but I don't think
we mentioned it well. And AxelFoley is a Detroit cop I think also
true. Yes, yeah, lookat all these connections. Uh yeah,

(44:50):
and so oh, and then wewe get we find out that Norbert's on
ice for the rest of the investigation. I wonder if he's going to show
back up, but it appears thathe's not because More is now in charge.
And uh and apparently for Marine beingin charge, I mean literally,
the only thing we get with Marineis her telling Raylan, Hey, there's
flowers in the room for you.It's I I do feel like Maureen and

(45:15):
Sandy are being significantly underutilized on thisshow. But that's that's just my perspective.
I don't know how you guys think. Well, I think it could
be, you know, just thenumber of episodes they can't really go.
The length of this season is sois relatively short compared to the other,
uh, the other previous seasons.True, So maybe that might be it.

(45:37):
Maybe if we had dropped the Willowplotlines in the first few episodes,
but in a marine plotline, itwould have been it would have been a
little bit better there. But soif I could address the whole Willow thing
for a second, because they reallydo drop it, Because if you think
about knowing that plotline and knowing wellknowing of who she is, what,
don't you think at some point sinceWillow left that Raylan like at least one

(46:01):
call from Whatnona going, what thehell happened? Yeah? Why is will
be like that? One call forwonta cask ging why Raylan didn't take her
to whatever that camp she was supposedto go to? Yeah? No,
no, yelling at him. Nothing, just just absolute radio silence. And

(46:22):
and I did I think I thinkit's because Winona was busy making LaBrea,
I think is what was going onthere. So that's why that that's that
show she's on on on one ofthe networks. The prehistoric show was that.
I was gonna say that was theearthquake one, but that's it's one
where she gets sent to a differentworld. Yeah, it's like like she

(46:43):
gets like sent back to dinosaur timesor whatever, or like I don't know
if it's the world like the worldwithin the world that was from King Kong
and God's versus Godzilla. Maybe it'slike the jungle world at the center of
the Earth or whatever. But yeah, so but yeah, Willa has gone
and she's not in the mood totext either. And I wrote, OMG,

(47:04):
k thanks by on here, likethat's that's all we get of Willa
in this episode. But I didnotice that apparently Raylan has never sent Willa
a text. But either yea oneof two things, right, Either either
Raylan has never sent Willa a textbefore or a Raylan maintains very good operational
security and deletes all of this textevery night. Yeah, because it looks

(47:30):
like he's sending her at text forthe first time. But all right,
let's see what else do we havehere? Oh, I have, I
have Raylan might be a little toxicand uh, you know, so they
have this awkward Raylan and Carolyn havethis awkward kiss in the driveway, right,
and boy, it went on.I gotta say back on the awkward

(47:52):
relationship thing. That kiss went onfor what seemed like forever, and it
felt really weird to be watching it. I don't know how you guys feel.
I think that it's just like you'resaying, it's it's like almost I
don't I don't want to say it'sunbelievable, but it's it's just awkward,
and it's it's something new we haven'tseen him before. Yeah, I was

(48:14):
as far as in the series I'mtalking about it. Yeah, that's true.
That's true of Raylans sort of likeheavily pursuing someone and her sort of
being into it. Yeah, there'sthere's a lot more playful kind of back
and forth with Raylan's targets and inpast justifiedes, I did say I did

(48:35):
want to mention this. I wentback and looked at I thought about I
didn't look at it. I thoughtabout Raylan's relationships with Winona and Ava and
the various other women that he wasinvolved with and justified. I thought about
tim olafonse relationship with Drew Barrymore onthe Santa Clarita Diet. I thought about
tim Olafont's relationship with Skylar White onon Deadwood, and also with that Catherine

(49:05):
of Aragon, that's who she wason the Tutors the laud Nomadict on Deadwood.
And I think in in all ofthose instances there was minimal it felt
like minimal chemistry, Like I thinkmaybe he and Ava had the best chemistry.
So this I'm I'm attributing this notnecessarily to the characters I'm attributing or

(49:29):
to the unbelievable kind of element ofthe plotline. I'm attributing this to the
the actors. Unfortunately, I thinkthat there maybe they maybe just didn't have
chemistry together. Well, I haveto wonder if. And then I'm also
the fact that for monogamy and lunchurerelationship. But I didn't realize until I

(49:50):
was reading some stuff up earlier today, is that he's married to his color
sweetheart. So you know that mighthave some do it to like he's never
he hasn't been in the field fora long long time, so that I'm
just you know, playing, I'mnot an actor. I don't acting,

(50:12):
not did, But I wonder whetherthat plays into it, if he just
doesn't have that in him of knowingthe whole thing of the pursuit of a
woman and you know, the newromance and stuff like that. That's my
fist football in here. I immediatelythought of that as well. I immediately
thought that, hey, maybe it'sjust so devoted to his wife and his

(50:34):
family that it's hard for him tosort of act, to even step into
Raylan shoes in these circumstances. Ithought that maybe that would maybe that had
something to do with it. Andhearing what you're saying kind of reinforces that
for me a little bit too.I know that what's his name, the
guy who played Quarrels, he's likea ultra religious, uh person yea,

(51:00):
And he he doesn't like to doviolent things on camera. He doesn't like
to, you know, have hewon't. I believe he won't kiss on
camera because he's married and he won't. He won't kiss another actress. The
big Paul Newman has been married justwas married to John Woodward for fifty sixty

(51:22):
years. And I just wonder whetherthere are some actors that can separate themselves
from their personal history in some camps. I don't know. Yeah, I
think I think that might have somethingto do with it here. I think
I think you're onto something, yeah, because I was just thinking, you
know, the Rock is like thattoo. I mean he doesn't have any

(51:44):
I mean they put him in thesemovies, right, and I don't think
I've ever seen him in a like, in a convincing role as far as
I having chemistry with a female actor. Are you questioning the Rocks acting ability?
It's yes. Look, he getsa lifetime pass for me from that

(52:07):
Fast and Furious movie where he's gothis armor cast and he's like, Daddy's
got to go to work and thenflexes and breaks the cast. Well,
he's no Jason Staitho, and Igotta give credit to him because he really
can't act. The state can't.Yeah, he really can't. It's not

(52:29):
just because he's British and it seemslike he can act. No, he
like, yeah, he can't act, So all right, well let's uh,
let's see, We've got a fewa few more things that I want
to that I wanted to talk abouthere. So we find out that Sweeties

(52:51):
underwater financially desperate to get out ofthe hole, Carolyn tries to get his
partner to move the gun. Wedon't know if that actually happens or not,
but so so, Carolyn now isnot only conspiring against one client with
another client, she's conspiring against oneclient with someone who's not even a client.

(53:12):
So so yeah, paying playing fastand loose with the ethical rules for
sure. We got an appearance fromfrom Toma, who is the head of
the Albanian group there on this sideof the river is what they say.
And that's that guy's played by McManusfrom OZ and uh, he's in Billions

(53:36):
also, he's like a black bagman and Billions and he's good at that.
He's been in a bunch of otherstuff. But but I remember him
as McManus from OZ. I dotoo. I I unapologetically love it,
and I think I think they're itneeds some I think it's it's a little

(53:58):
bit naive, or a little bitmaybe like a a theater student's kind of
experiment almost the way that they didthe show, but I really enjoy it,
and I think it's a great sortof look at the prison system and
how messed up the prison system isin this country. So yep, oh

(54:22):
I have this, we have thisfeature of course, but this and and
so this, this one's actually thisis not Detroit, is uh, is
what I'm gonna do because as weknow, I think we talked about it

(54:42):
last episode. This this uh,this show is filmed in Chicago, not
in Detroit. And it usually they'repretty good about not giving that away.
But in this, uh, inthese two episodes, we had two very
clear Chicago references. R J Gruntsis a restaurant in Chicago. It's sort
of a TGI Friday's, like anupscale TGI Friday's sort of feel. It

(55:07):
felt like that's where Clement got hissteak black and blue and or order to
steak black and blue but didn't getit black and blue and send it back
and and you know, kind ofit's it's our, it's also our.
Wait, where's the yahoid Crowder anew void crowder Crowder? Yeah, so

(55:34):
so this is you know, thatwhole interaction with uh with u A.
Clement and the waitress sort of feltlike a Boyd Crowder sort of uh soliloquy
that he was doing there when hetold her to go back, put on
the grill. Hum. Two barsof were hum two verse two verses of
whatever the white stripe song was hereferenced and uh and then flip it over

(55:58):
and hum the hum the last verseand bring it out to me. It
felt very much like like trying tocapture a Boyd Crowder sort of soliloquy there,
and it failed. I think itwas. It was entertaining, but
not much more than that. Butbut yeah, RJ grunts as a restaurant
in Chicago, and the Steak andEggar where they went for breakfast the next

(56:22):
day, that is also in Chicago. There's like a bunch of them in
the Chicago Land area. But thereis actually one in Muskegan. But as
Michael will tell us, Moskegan's onthe other side of the state from Detroit.
Yeahskegans. Yeah, it's a goodtwo and a half hours from Detroit.

(56:43):
But I so as a native detroitter, I will tell you not many,
not that many shows take place orrorfilmed in Detroit. So by being
very familiar with having because I've livedin Deturch for so many years. There
are definitely some things I have myeye out for, one of which was

(57:04):
when they first shoke it, whenthey if first to have Caroline at her
house and on the screen that saysthe words gross points. Yes, if
you notice the spelling was neither.There's no e at the end of either
gross or a point. And thereis actually a street in the Chicago area,
I think up in Skokie, whichis a suburb that has it's called

(57:25):
gross Point without the ease at theend, whereas the Gross Point that the
Gross Point that is a suburb ofDetroit does it has an e at both
and the gross and the end ofpoints as in the movie gross Point Blank,
which John Cusack fans are very familiarwith that so right, so when
I saw that, when I sawthat on the screen of Gross Point without

(57:47):
the ease, I was cringing out. It's like, oh, that's Chicago's
Ghost Point. That's that's the choiceand the on Hughes universe over there right
from the eighties, like all ofthose movies from that took place in that
area, right is that is thatcorrect? So what John Hughes was was

(58:10):
the Chicago's who was a I thinkit's originally from Detroit, but his movies
all took mostly took place in theChicago area. But if you know,
when Cameron wore a Red Wings jerseyin uh Saris Bueller was homage to John
Hughes being originally from Detroit, becauseI remember perctly. Okay, all right,

(58:35):
well that's cool. That's a nice, nice little tidbit there. So
yeah, all right, So sothat's that's our this is Detroit or more
specifically, this is not Detroit momentthere, and also our your no you're
no Boyd Crowder, senator, You'reno Boyd Crowder. We uh let's see,
I think. So yeah, let'stalk about Jamal just for a second,

(59:00):
because I one of the things Idid love about this episode was the
Jamal Raylan interaction and Carolyn's driveway.I thought it was fantastic. It very
much. Hearkened back to original ogjustified for me. How did you guys
feel about that? Oh? Yeah, it was probably well because Jamal,

(59:21):
I think added he adds a lotto these two episodes. There's that interaction
and then at the restaurant, andthen later on where it's on jan Alis
or Carolyn and and him. Imean those those three uh that happened over
these two episodes, those those threescenes were very good, very very good.

(59:44):
Yeah, I thought there was therewas more of the good guy bad
guy chemistry there than there was withI'm drawn like all of a sudden,
I'm yeah, yeah, man sayyeah, Manzelle is that Men's just seems
he's just well while old guy wasnot much brains, unpredictable. But whereas

(01:00:08):
you know, Rayland's best nemesies havebeen guys who have some of the good
level of intelligence, you know,necessarily use it well, don't always have
good good sense how they employ it. But you know, someone like Boyd
Crowder you know, or uh,you know, there's some other ones that
it has some intelligence and therefore youfeel like there's more of a given take

(01:00:30):
there between the two. Yeah,you had a plotting sort of like he
had the ability to sort of plot. He wasn't very good at it,
but he did have the ability toplot and plan. Yeah. Yeah,
and we haven't seen that from Mansellyet. To your point, there's there's
been no you know, effort reallyto plan. He relies on others to

(01:00:52):
do the planning. He's more ofan execution guy. And by execution I
mean like literal execution, which makeshim and I think that makes him kind
of like not as as good ofa character. I think as far as
the in the story, I thinkmore interesting is Jamal. You know,
he could. You don't know ifhe's a good guy or a bad guy,

(01:01:13):
or you know his motivations. Andthat's kind of kind of unfolding over
these episodes, whereas Mansell is asyou guys are saying, oh, he's
just the blood instrument. Yeah.Characters who are morally conflicted, or at
least have lines that they would appearto not cross, and then when they
do it's a big deal, arealways more interesting than characters that are entirely

(01:01:37):
a moral, right, I thinkthat that we can get that from again
to reference back to the Sopranos,right, Tony Soprano is an interesting character
not because he's entirely a moral butbecause there is some level of ethics or
responsibility, or there's something there thatstrains his id from running wild, unlike

(01:02:02):
man Seal, who yeah, isentirely unrestrained. And they've done that,
I mean that's the way they advertisednot advertised. But that's his character,
is the unrestrained yep. Yeah,and that that's character in the book too.
It is the same thing, soit translates better on paper, I
think. But yeah probably Yeah,So Kokomo worst Beach Boys song or best

(01:02:28):
Beach Boys song, worst worst?I wouldn't say it's the worst, but
there's no way it's the best.Yeah. And then I say this as
someone who long has had Pet Soundson my list of desert island. You

(01:02:49):
know, if you had your listof five or sad albums you had to
take with you two desert islands,that Pet Sounds has long been on that
list for me. So but youconsider you sider good? Okay, I
consider I consider a good song.I wouldn't put it anywhere near into the
beach Boy's pampion, sure, butif you's just a song, be a

(01:03:13):
thing of it as a Beach Boyssong, just as a fun song,
it's fine. Yeah. I dolike that they paid the license the song,
so they just played the whole damnthing. We'll just play two and
a half minutes of it, becauseyou know, we paid for it.
We gotta paid for it no matterwhat. So I did like that.

(01:03:35):
Let's see, I don't have.I don't think I have. Oh.
I did like Clement's assessment of theflood in Sandy's apartment as a white man's
problem because it's the landlord's problem andnot ours. I thought that was pretty
funny. I also wonder who he'sgoing to sell that art too, that
he that he stole from from BulldozerBurt. He came back and grabbed that

(01:04:00):
painting off the wall. What thehell's he gonna do with that painting?
Like, listen, I'm sure hedoesn't know how a fine art fence in
the Detroit area. I don't thinkit was a person anywhere. Yeah,
that's probable. Well, I dowonder how, why why he was drawn

(01:04:20):
to it in particular, Right,what's the what's the draw for him?
Well? I wondered about that too, But then I looked a little bit
more closely. That farmhouse looks likeif you if you go back and look
at the story he told about hismom being sucked up by the tornado,

(01:04:41):
it looks sort of like the settingfor that tornado that she got sucked up
by. So the farmhouse and thatpainting looks sort of like that, which
you know, potentially and again Imight be given the writers a little bit
too much credit here, but youknow, you never know. They haven't
let us down before, so therecould be a tie that that story might
actually be real. That he toldSkender it just didn't happen to Sandy and

(01:05:05):
him, it happened to him,and so it kind of reminded him of
home potentially. That's that's what Ithought was Okay, Yeah, I just
I just took it for he figuredhe's in a rich guy's house, so
everything in the house must be worthsomething, and that was the one that
caught by. Yeah. I thinkhe's as simple of a guy. Yeah,

(01:05:29):
well, I think you're right aboutthat, right. I think it's
I think it can very easily likethat would not surprise me if that was
the entire explanation for it. Not, it wouldn't surprise me even a little
bit. I'd be far more surprisedif there was actually depth to it.
But all right, yeah, Ithink I think that's about it. Let's
uh. Oh, I I wantedto comment on Jamal's clothes. Uh.

(01:05:51):
That's Tom Brown. Uh is thethe designer of that that match you match
stripey stuff with the with the suitwith the tag on the back collar that's
Tom Brown. So apparently, uh, he's a clothes horse. Those things
are incredibly expensive. I thought itwas, you know, it was kind

(01:06:12):
of on brand for him to belike, uh, you know, like
he's living in that was sharing?Was he sharing that house with somebody?
Was that what it was? Buthe has like all these these clothes that
maybe maybe he could have gotten ridof because he's trying to or maybe was
that him sticking Carolyn with the taxlean? Is that what that is?
Well they got divorced too, right, So yeah, so he took his

(01:06:34):
stuff and moved into that that depressingbachelor apartment and he's got a new he's
got a new girlfriend who's got apparentlytig old biddies, which I did,
and I'm like, wait a minute, are you telling me that Carolyn doesn't
wear a big bra? Because Carolinewears a big bra all right? Like
like come on, guys, that'sthat's that Jonah Hill like that Saturday That's

(01:06:59):
what I just remember that, Likethat there's a Saturday Live skin where Jonah
Hill is like at this beach partyin San Diego or something like that.
He's talking like that like a fratboy bigg ol tig Old Biddies, tig
Old Biddies. That that was good. I was very cute, very good
line. Are a very good hline in the show. Uh yeah,

(01:07:24):
I think that covers it. Soanything, uh, anything we missed h
here Randy or Michael, any favoritemoment, least favorite moment, or or
something that we just forgot to mention, I think we covered it. On
my end. The only thing Iwould say is just to re emphasize.
I think that the Jamal and Carolynthat chemistry is like is very powerful,

(01:07:46):
and I think that's probably if youif you took Railing at the picture,
I think I would like to seelike more of that the background and find
out more about that relationship. Yeah, I do too, And I would
like to see more Railing and themall at the same time. So I'm
actually okay with the whole love trianglething if it means more Raylan Jamal conversations

(01:08:08):
like we would have had Raylan Garyconversations. Right, Yeah, it's fair.
Yeah, I like I like thatsort of that sort of thing that
I think they like. He saidthey had good villain chemistry there. I'm
still left with the notion that hisRaylan doesn't have it, does not seem

(01:08:29):
to have the chemistry with Carolyn.Is it going to lend to the same
tension with Jamal that he that heshould have because the tension between the two
get in the love triangle, thetension between the two rivals is usually going
to be driven by the feeling thateach one has for that third person.

(01:08:49):
But if if Raylan's whole relationship withCarolyn just seems forced, they're just going
to force the rest goal off triangletension. Yeah, yeah, And I
think I think that that goes directlyto like, is it a writing problem
or is it an acting problem?Right? Because if it's a writing problem,
I think you're dead on right thatthat we would see that come out

(01:09:11):
in any interaction related to that relationshipwith Carolyn. But if it's an acting
problem, it's just in that relationship, just in those moments between Carolyn and
Raylan, and not in the otherareas of the relationship or of the other
interactions. So maybe we'll find moreout. Maybe maybe Jamal's not done with
the show, even though it certainlyappears that Carolyn has cut him out of

(01:09:35):
her life for good. So rights, well, let's get to our final
segment here, I was telling myfriends this morning, now yesterday coming in.
If you don't get out of townin twenty four hours, I'm gonna
shoot you one site Berno, areyou going to shoot him? I'll get
for you before you even clear yourwhip. Who's not take my chances with

(01:09:57):
the other the chance I'm going tokill? Are you going to shoot him?
To Raylan? And did Raylan?Actually you know what, I don't
even know, Like I'm trying tolike them jumbled in my head. Did
Raylan shoot anybody these two episodes?Raylan did not? Did not? Were
there any bodies there was? There'sa dead Albanian in the street. Yes,

(01:10:25):
which, by the way, mymoney's on that shooting not being clean.
That's I'll just get that on therecord right now. There's no way,
there's no way that's a clean shooting. Like he was like shooting like
as he was running away, rightwell, I think that's what was going
on. I think he got Ithink he were going to find out he
got shot in the back as hewas running away because he do hear they

(01:10:47):
do make a big deal about himyelling stop police, blah blah blah,
before he shoots you. They makesure we They made sure we heard that
in the apartment above the street level, to the point where they paused the
action in the apartment to make surewe heard it. So I suspect that
that might come back to uh toplay in to the story. To me,

(01:11:09):
it was a given to me,It was a given that that he
he could he killed them. Iwent with without much justification from a legal
perspective. Yeah, I mean,he's he's he's very obviously trigger happy,
talked about throwing man set off abuilding like he's Yeah, he's he's he's

(01:11:29):
a bad, bad co Yeah,because because I think also if there really,
if there was more of a battle, so to speak, they would
have shown that. And the factthat they didn't is yeah, is just
for the dramatic tension. They wouldhave shown it. That's a great point.
So yeah, yeah, but Ithink at the same time they just
wanted to write it off. Idon't know if I'm actually I just almost

(01:11:51):
forgot about already. I think they'rejust gonna write that part off and move
on. Yeah, Wills, likeWill exactly just disappears one day. Wasn't
there a kid there? There's kidson TV shows that happens too pretty regularly.
I remember days of our lives thatwould happen with the kids. He
would disappear for like three years andthen come back and be fifteen years older.

(01:12:17):
Well, well it's going back.It's goes. Expect the happy day.
Think that that's the chuck uh chuckthings unting. He shows up.
Yeah, he just like never referencedagain. He that he and his basketball
just disappeared. He's probably buried inthe cutting Hamps basement. Well, I

(01:12:41):
guess Fozi lives there. Oh no, Fonzi lives upstairs. Cutting Goes buried
him underneath the house over there.Knows how to disposable body. Yeah all
right, well let's uh let's getto the plugs. Uh So Mike,
Well, thanks for first of all, thanks for coming on the show.

(01:13:02):
I think it went absolutely fantastically.Yeah, that was very good, very
great. It's great to help mypleasure on Detroit and you know the criminal
law and all of that. Soso thanks for joining us. Anything you
want to plug, I'm just outthere doing my thing. Like I said,
my job now is I find missingerrors and inheritance assets. So if

(01:13:26):
anybody needs that help, feel freeto reach out to me. I'm on
Facebook and LinkedIn, which I knowis not usually a platform that gets plugged
TV recap things, so that's whereI spent se so most of my social
media time. Or just email meat m's wick MZ I c K excuse

(01:13:46):
me, M's wick at Assets Internationaldot com and you know, or if
you just want to talk about Justifiedor Detroit or whatever, let me know.
Awesome, that's uh, that's M'swick and they just look for Michael's
wick on on LinkedIn or Facebook tofind you. Yeah, I think I'm
been on both long. I wasone of the probably first Michael's books on

(01:14:09):
both, so I should be easyto find on both those. Okay,
great, so check that out ifyou need. If you need p I
work done around missing errors or probateassets. So again, thanks for joining
us, and you can find outmore about our show on our social media.
That's at groundless and at groundless I'msorry, at Groundless pod, and

(01:14:30):
at Groundless Podcast. You can emailus Groundless Podcast at gmail dot com with
your questions and corrections. I'm surewe've I know I've got a couple corrections
that I corrected inline, but I'msure we'll get to a couple of ones
that we didn't correct inline, soplease feel free to let us know about
that. It's our it's actually legitimatelyone of our favorite things. Please also

(01:14:57):
don't forget to subscribe, rate andreview. So thank you to all of
our new subscribers out there. We'vegot a lot of additional downloads thanks to
City Primeval and these episodes. Wereally appreciate it. Please take the time
to give us five stars, andif you have a few minutes to write
us a review on the podcast appof your choice. It really does help
the show. It helps people findit. It makes sure we come up

(01:15:20):
in searches. If if you rateother shows, it'll be like, oh,
if you liked you know, ShowX, you might like Show Why.
And we'd like to be Show Whyas as often as possible. So
please please do give us five starsin a review when you get a chance.
From a production schedule standpoint, We'regoing to be taken another little bit

(01:15:41):
of a break because I'm going tobe out of town. So the next
two episodes we will do again atthe same time, and that will be
roughly two weeks from this coming Saturday. I would say so. Probably the
twenty sixth or twenty seventh, somewherein that vicinity is when you should expect
another new episode of Groundless, uh, covering the the third to final and

(01:16:08):
penultimate episodes of of City Prime Eval. I can't believe it's almost over already.
It's crazy. It feels like itfeels like it just started. So
but thanks again to our guest Michael, and uh, thank you to our
listeners for listening. We really appreciateit. Don't forget to subscribe, rate
and review, and uh, thankyou for listening