Neville Medhora on Copywriting and Improving your Writing Skills

In this exciting session, we have the honor of hosting Neville Medhora, a renowned expert in copywriting, content creator, and the founder of Kopywriting Kourse.

Join us as we dive deep into the world of copywriting with Neville. We discuss how to enhance your writing skills, common mistakes to avoid, and the significant shifts happening with the rise of AI in the industry.

Neville shares invaluable insights and practical tips that can help you elevate your copywriting game.

Don't miss out on this opportunity to learn from one of the best in the field. Tune in to the full episode now!

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Chow everyone, and welcome back togrowth olks. I'm Rafael, your host
and my guest. Today's Nevil MedoraNevill. Today, I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Yeah, I'm
super excited about this one. Ireally wanted to do this one with you
here. On the podscast, weusually start with a simple one, a

(00:20):
classic. So what's your story?Who's Nevil? Yeah, in a nutshell,
I was just a kid in highschool and I got interested in making
money kind of by accident. Istarted selling CDs on the side, you
know, burning m P three's andstuff back in the day, and I
started making money and I honestly neverhad any idea what to do with it.
I just saved it. There's nothingfor me to do in high school

(00:42):
that I could do. So thenin college, I started a business called
House of Brave and it was ane commerce store, and I thought it
was brilliant because I thought I inventedthis model of drop shipping, which now
you know everyone does, right,You sell stuff, but someone else ships
it out they actually physically keep it. So I did that with a supplier
in California, and that paid fora lot of my college and so I

(01:02):
had extra money. And I rememberone year in my second year of college,
I was like, wait, Ican use this money to buy things.
And I bought speakers, and Ibought a new computer, and I
bought a screen and it showed upto my place and I was like,
oh, my God, like,you can make money online and buy things
with it. And that was likethe big click. And so I always

(01:23):
started these little businesses in college.By the time I graduated, I was
making more money than I could ata job. I think I probably could
have made like seventy five thousand dollarsa year back then with the job,
and I was making more than that, and so I thought, well,
why not do this? The upsideis unlimited and if I fail, I
could always go get a job,right And so since the yeah, I've

(01:45):
never had a job out of college, I always did this kind of stuff.
And then around twenty eleven twelve,my buddy Noah Kagan was building one
of his side projects called Apsumo offof my couch and I ended up joining
that company and taking equity that companyand writing all the emails, and that
email list grew really big, andthat's where copywriting comes in. So they
were sending out to about fifty thousandpeople every week for these email deals,

(02:09):
and they were just bad emails.And meanwhile my business was being greatly benefited
by me writing these really good emails. So I said, what if I
take this skill apply it there?And sure enough, it was the first
like ten thousand dollars profit day thatappsum you ever had. So Noah was
like, wow, that maybe thisreally works, and even I was surprised
by it. I was like,holy crap. And so we tried it

(02:30):
again and again and again and itgrew really really quickly. And then since
then, I've been part of abunch of different software companies, different agencies,
notably like the Hustle that sold theHubSpot. So I've been part of
a lot of these companies that haveemail and writing and content as their core.
And I just noticed that usually thesecompanies that do really well with content

(02:53):
at their core, the core founderis really good with content. So I
do think that content is very valuableskill. People always ask me, like,
Nowville, where's the best copywriters?And I'm like, I think they
a lot of them own businesses,So if they don't own their own like
traditional business. They own like theyown a copywriting freelance business. And so
I do think that there is likethis entrepreneurial streak and a lot of copywriters

(03:15):
that I've met, and the bestones often own very large businesses. Yeah,
and so that brings me to copywritingcourse. A lot of people were
asking us, how are you writingthese emails with Appsuma, We're sending on
an email every day selling something,and people are like, even though you're
selling me something, I want toread your emails. What's going on.
I was like, it's just thinkcalled copywriting. Here's how you do it.
And then after a while I waslike, Okay, I'm repeating myself

(03:35):
so much. Let me start acourse. That's where copywriting course got started.
And so what we do is wetrain people to write better. So
it's like a set of videos thatyou watch and that's step one. Then
the next thing we notice is ifI just if you just show me something
like an email and I make itbetter, you learn a lot faster.
So we started like a whole reviewforum where the whole point is like you
post your copy where it's a salespage, email, lending page, home

(03:57):
page, YouTube script, whatever itis myself and other professional writers give feedback
on it and update it, oftentimesjust rewrite it, and then you go,
oh, that's how to make itbetter. And the cool thing is
once people learn those things, theycan just forever make everything that they send
out much better. So when you'recreating content, as you know, Raphael,
like, if you send out oneor two or three great pieces in
your lifetime, that could be yourwhole career. So that's what we try

(04:21):
to do. We try to optimizeeveryone's writing that they put out to the
world, because the information that youput out to the world now is so
scalable with the Internet, and it'svery important to get it right. So
yeah, that's how we ended herewith a copyerating course. And then I
have a site called swipe file whereI collect all the marketing that I like
and just put that out for free. That's just like a free site,
it pays for itself. Yeah,those are my main two things right now.

(04:43):
Nice and I was curious, whatdid you thought at university? Was
it somehow related to business? Ibet, like a lot of people,
it was completely inconsequential. It waspolitical science and business. So I kind
of wanted to go to law schooland political science. I think should have
been called statistics. It should havebeen That's what it was mainly so and

(05:04):
then like some government law stuff,but it had no bearing on it whatsoever.
I think it probably taught me theopposite. Actually, when when the
people that don't want to use goodcopyrighting the most that are most incentivized to
not use good copyrighting lawyers, theywant it to be they want it to
be obscure, they want it tobe long, they want you to be

(05:26):
confused. They want you to bebored, so you don't read through everything.
You know, you click one ofthose like accept all terms whatever,
like forty seven pages. Why can'tthey just tell you in three lines,
hey, we're taking all your data. Because that doesn't sound good. They
want to they want to obscure it. So I actually went to school for
the profession that most rewards the worstcopyrighting. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(05:46):
I totally yeah. And also itmakes me feel stupid every time I read
something like that, I feel likeI don't I don't understand. Oh what's
going on? I don't know whatthis is? Uh? So you get
tired and you click accept and that'sit. Yeah, you have no idea
and buried in section eighty three pointtwo point five dash a is like some
you know, we're going to stealall your data. Yeah. Yeah.

(06:08):
So my question is, how didyou find coby writing? I mean you
were thoughting something else you, Imean you were kind of passionate about it.
Was it random? What happened?Well? I actually had a business
and I was selling these rave productsback in the day. Like I said,
I had a drop shipping business,and I had seventy five hundred emails

(06:30):
of previous customers, so people whohad already paid me and opted into my
email newsletter. And a friend kepttelling I heard from all these marketing people
it's like the money is in theemail newsletter. And back in the day,
this was like not as common knowledge, right, So I thought,
let me try it, let mesend it out. And I was sending
out emails with like big pictures,and I was taking a lot of pictures,
taking like twenty hours to write eachedition because I was taking pictures for

(06:54):
it, making custom stuff, photoshoppingthings, making it, you know,
making it all line up and everything. It was very difficult, and I
was making no money on them.Every time I sent out an email,
maybe I got one or two ordersat most. I was actually going negative
because it costs eighty bucks a monthto host the service and I was making
maybe forty dollars on profit. SoI just thought, that's just how it

(07:15):
is, like you send it out, keep on top of mind. Maybe
someone will buy some other day.Then a friend told me to read the
Gary Helbert letters, and you canfind he's online, the Gary Helbert the
Boron letters is what they're called.And he wrote these from jail to his
son on how to sell. AndI remember reading those and staying up till
six am every night, and Iwas excited and mad at the same time.

(07:38):
I was excited that I learned thisnew skill called copywriting. I was
really mad that I was doing everythingwrong in the past. I was like,
damn, how much money have Iwasted by sending out things the wrong
way? And so that month Iwas like, I'm going to send out
my first properly copywritten letter. Andwhat it was was like using the AID
to formula attention, interest, desireaction to send out an email having like
a premise why am I selling thisright? So that was a big thing,

(08:01):
Like a lot of times it'd belike, buy this now, and
people were like why, what,Like if I just send you buy this
now, why what's the deal?You know, maybe if it's Christmas,
maybe there's a reason to buy somethinggifts for someone that makes sense. Maybe
if it's Halloween you go to dressup with something, that's a reason.
So I had to invent a reasonto sell something. And so there was

(08:24):
a reason. I actually had toomany of something in stock, these finger
lights, and we had so manyof them that we couldn't we couldn't sell
them as fast. And so Iwrote this whole story how we need to
get rid of them now they're takingup space. We just we need to
get them out the door. AndI put all the different reasons people should
buy them. You know what,I thought these finger lights were for people
dancing, just you know, likedancing like that not true, because I

(08:46):
would pick up the phone for customerservice and one time someone bought fifty of
them, and I was like,why did you buy fifty packages of finger
lights? So fifty times ten,it's like five hundred finger lights. They're
a plumbing company, you know,plumbing like and toilets and things like that,
and they said that their guys can'tget all the way under, so
they have like a headlamp, butthey can't always get way back, so

(09:07):
they put these on their fingers tosee back there. And I was like,
I never would have thought of that, right. Someone told me their
kid has autism and the finger lightslike help them, kind of like calm
down. One parent told me thattheir kids checked for monsters under their bed
with that thing. MTV bought twohundred three hundred or something like that.

(09:28):
MTV the network that had some show, and they were using it for Halloween
decorations and for lights on like alaser gun on TV. And I wrote
down all these reasons because I didn'tthink of these reasons, and maybe these
people buying them didn't even think ofthese reasons. And so people thought like,
oh, I can use them forHalloween, I could use them for
my kids. I can use themfor when I dance. I can use

(09:48):
them as a flashlight at night whenI go camping. And they're really cheap,
so you just throw them away.They're disposable, right, And so
I wrot this perfectly copywritten email myfirst tenthout and dollar profit day I sold
out of them. I had toI had to find a new supplier to
get more even though I had toomany. And so it was the first
time that an email had worked forme really well. And I applied all

(10:09):
these copyrighting principles. So just imaginethat going from like negative forty dollars per
email to making ten thousand. AndI was like, something's here. So
that's what you asked. The originalquestion was how I got into copyrighting that
motivation of like, okay, thatcompletely changed the outcome. And all I
did was change the words around.And here's the funny thing. I spent

(10:30):
less time on this email than Iwrote. Then I did the other emails
that I was doing wrong with allthe images and just over the top big
buttons and stuff. It was somuch easier for me to write this quick
story than do that. And soI was like, okay, some things
to this, like the way thatyou approach your sale matters a lot.
And so from then on, Iapplied those copyright principles to kind of everything

(10:54):
I did, and it worked reallywell, and they started teaching it to
other people because they kept hiring meto do it for them, and I
was like, well, I don'thave enough time to do this, so
I'll just teach you and you coulddo it. So, yeah, we've
taught I think twelve thousand plus people. I mean probably like twenty thousand plus
more, but for Copper in course, at least twelve thousand. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. And I thinkthe best part of the story is that

(11:15):
everything started when you when you reademails from the customer service. So choking
with your customer was the key towriting a great email. Well, a
lot of totally absolutely. Let's sayI want to sell cars, right,
let's say a Ford F one fiftypickup truck. What I would do is,

(11:41):
I don't know anything about Ford Fone fifty pickup trucks, right,
I'm just I'm just some guy.I don't have a truck, so I
don't know anything. What I woulddo is I go to the Ford dealership.
I would say, who is yourtop sales guy. I'll pay him
one hundred bucks just to talk tohim for twenty minutes. And you get
a meeting with this guy and youtell what do people get really excited about
when you say something? Where dodo their eyes light up? And where

(12:01):
do they just go like okay,whatever. So let's say, for example,
the guy says, uh, whenI talk about horsepower that the Ford
F one fitt has four hundred horsepower, people go like, okay, cool
or whatever, like like it doesn'tmean anything in their head, right.
But if you say you can toeseven horses, right, and they go,
oh, my god, that's alot of horses, I don't know,

(12:22):
just give me an example, butyou go, oh, that's that's
interesting that they lit up when theyheard that. Something activated in their brain
that made them interested in that.When I just said the number four hundred
horsepower, didn't care at all.So as a copywriter, I would say
seven horses, you can toe sevenhorses and four hundred horsepower. Cross that
out because that doesn't matter. MaybeI'll put it somewhere in the spec sheet,
but that's not going to be themain headline. And then I say,

(12:46):
when you're showing them the truck,like, what do they ask about?
Like what are they really fascinated about? So for example, maybe they'll
say, oh, when we flipdown the back of the bed, it
has steps and you can just walkright into it. And people love doing
that, and they love that youpush a button and it just closes automatically.
And I go Okay, so that'swhat people are really really interested in,
and so you go to someone whoactually knows about this industry. So

(13:07):
I know you do a lot ofcontent. I bet you do consultations with
people. One of the things thatI always try to I love about consultations.
I get to learn about their industry. They think I'm going to come
in and write all their copies.I'm like, no, no, I'm
not going to do it for you. I'm going to do it with you
because I don't know anything about yourindustry. You're going to tell me everything
and I'm just going to steal itand write it down. So that's I
think a really really big deal oflike figuring out who's the best salesperson at

(13:31):
something and asking them, like whatfeatures, what qualities, what specific things
make people's eyes, you know,light up. And that's how you figure
out what you're going to say.That's how you figure out what your image
is going to be. That's howyou figure out what your headline is going
to be. That's that's my numberone tip is figuring out, like the
kernel, that they really love emotionsnot features. Yeah, I mean sometimes

(13:56):
features are good, like for software, you know, it's all features and
stuff, and like, what canyou do with it? So you don't
have to go necessarily super emotional.And I don't always think you have to
go for just emotion. But whatelicits a response? So it could be
emotional, it could be specs.For example, if you're selling AI chips
or something like that to a hardwarecompany, they want the fastest processor.

(14:18):
That matters. So when you sayit's three giga flops or whatever and they
go, whoa, that's all Icare about. Whether it's technical or emotional.
It doesn't matter because some products aretechnical, some products are emotional.
It doesn't matter to me. Whatevergets their attention is what I really want
to know. Yeah, why arethey really buying it? Do you think
that this kind of approach can beused in every industry? I'm asking these

(14:41):
because you know I do sometimes Ido a bit of teaching and coaching and
there is always someone from I don'tknow some strange B two B industry and
say, oh, that's easy foryou in the B two C war because
you sell I don't know stuff tokids and teenagers. My industry is different.
My industry is Do you think theseapproach can be used every industry.

(15:05):
I've heard that every industry thinks they'respecial, they think they're different. So
here's the thing. There's many differentindustries, there's many different ages of people,
there's many different things people are interestedin, and there's different technology too.
Selling online is a little bit differentthan selling offline. But you know
what hasn't changed at all in thelast ten thousand years. This and your

(15:26):
brain. It's the same thing.There's been no difference in our brain versus
like a caveman brain from a longtime ago. It's essentially the same thing.
So what gets people interested is usuallygoing to be something that makes them
look better, makes them richer,saves them time, makes them cooler,
or they just have to buy it, like insurance. Like you have to
buy insurance. So there's a coupleof reasons why people buy. And it's

(15:48):
the same with everyone. And here'sthe thing. You have to, like
I said, you have to understandthe true motivation. Have you ever worked
with a big company before, orlike a mid sized company with like over
one hundred employees. Yeah, Sowhat happens is if you're working with the
founder one on one, you know, you say make this change, he
makes a change, right, awayand it's done. You work with the
company let's say five hundred people.Well, he has to talk to his

(16:11):
manager, and his manager goes toa weekly meeting where he brings up something,
proposes something, and da da dada da. Right, there's many
steps of bureaucracy. So maybe thechange you suggest might be made in three
months and have to go through likeseven different people. What I learned a
long time ago was let's say you'reworking with the big company and you say
this product is going to save thecompany a lot of money. That's not

(16:32):
why they're buying it, because it'snot just a company, it's a set
of people. It's five hundred people. And so what that person that's working
with you once is he wants togo to his meeting with his boss and
look good. So even if he'sspending a lot of money and not making
the company money, if it looksgood for whatever reason, Like this product
gets you a lot of traffic,but it's all garbage traffic to him,

(16:52):
He's like, it gets me alot of traffic, and I get to
show my boss that chart what's goingup, so he looks good. So
you have to understand what is actuallyhappening. Who are you trying to make
look good? And revolve your salearound that? Sometimes so so even with
like a B to B company,they think, well, my company is
different, right, you have tofigure out Okay, you know, overall

(17:15):
people are going to buy something fora certain specific set of reasons, and
it's almost always the same. ButI let them go say, yeah,
you do have like a you dohave like an interesting industry. I think
certain things are different, but thesethings are going to be the same.
Why do people really want to buyit is going to save them time?
How do we make this person lookgood to their boss? It's almost always
the same. I don't I actuallydon't try to like really convince them otherwise

(17:40):
anymore. I kind of go alongwith it halfway and say, like,
this is different in your industry,but these things are the same, and
it's kind of like a compromise.I don't try to like overpower them.
I used to say like, no, no, no, you don't understand.
Now I don't Now I don't botherwith that. Yeah do you do
you see that a lot? Yeah? Everyone in there. I always tell
them if everyone is special, noone is special. That's that's the thing.

(18:02):
So if every industry is different,it means that well, one way,
how do you approach it? Wheneversomeone says that what do you do?
What have you found that works?Well, yeah, I usually tell
them that, you know, myprevious I don't know five clients have told
me the same, and I listthem all the industries just to show that
there is no you know that weare not selling to companies, but we

(18:26):
are selling to people, because mostof the time they say yeah, but
you know, we sell to othercompanies, and are trying to make them
understand that there is no selling tocompanies. You sell to someone in that
company. So it's always human tohuman. That's that's the key of every
you know, business relationship. Itry to work on data year usually that's

(18:47):
that's a great way to approach it. Another way, another way that I
found is to basically just take stockof what's going on around them and show
them that if we make a smalltest and we get a better result.
Let's say we send out just aten percent of your emails and we get
a better result with the email wewrote, then we go with that and

(19:08):
if not, we stick with yours. That's a small test, and they're
usually more comfortable with that. Yeah, because just remember a lot of times,
especially working with a big company,they have managers and stuff, so
they're always nervous that breaking this patternthat they've done in the past is going
to be bad, and so Ihave to convince them like, let's just
try a small test. It's nota big deal. Yeah, that's that's

(19:29):
the other method I use, Andthey usually are okay with that. Then
they see the results like this worksfour times better, and they're like,
oh, yeah, yeah, thatis the right way. Since we are
sharing experiences with clients, have youseen like a common mistake they make?
You know, of course regarding youknow, copywriting, Is that like a
common mistake that she often working withcompanies? Yeah, the emails are boring,

(19:55):
there's too much sales, right,they're they're not educational, and just
no one pays No one pays attentionto them, right, It's like you're
just sending emails out. They justdon't get read. It's like, how
can we make this interesting? SoI think they're trying to sell each time,
where I'm just like, what ifwe educate? That's all our job
is to educate, maybe not evenabout all of our products. Maybe if
people if you get someone's email addressand get their newsletter, but they don't

(20:17):
read any of your newsletters, itdoesn't matter. It's gone. If they
look forward to every newsletter. Evenif you don't make a sale on that
newsletter, you have one hundred chancesto make a sale over time. I
mean your content creator as well.I bet people follow your newsletter three years
later they buy something. Right,for three years, they buy nothing from
you. I get the same thing. I have people for eleven years that

(20:40):
follow me, and then they finallybuy something. And so they just because
they want to follow along my newsletter, and when it's time for them to
buy, when that matches up towhat I'm selling, then they buy.
And so I think a lot ofpeople just try to sell too hard,
and people don't like that, youknow, they don't like just being like,
here's a bunch of products, buythis. You know, it's just
not something they want. Now there'sso many emails in your inbox, you

(21:02):
have to be more careful, rightif you just keep selling me sales and
I don't want to hear about them. I didn't really sign up for your
email newsletter be bosted to me fivetimes a week, you know, I'll
unsubscribe, and the tools to unsubscribeare getting better and better, and Google
is more efficient at placing promotions awayfrom the main inbox. And so you
have to be delivering good value topeople. And the cool thing is with

(21:22):
email you can actually you don't haveto do this all the time. People
think like, oh, we don'thave time to like write an email every
week. I'm like, you justwrite these emails at one point and put
them in an auto responder, right, so like convert email sequence. So
if someone signs up to my websitefor six months, they get emails,
I'm not writing them. I wrotethem in the past. And people are
like, how do you send outso much good stuff? It's like,

(21:44):
well, I wrote this all inthe past. I didn't write it as
you're reading it. And so that'sthe kind of thing where copywriting is very
scalable. That you could take oneweek, write a couple of good emails,
right, a couple of good salespages, put it out and it
keeps working for years. That's avery scared aailable skill to have. And
you said that the key is deliveringvalue. How do you do that?

(22:08):
What do they really want to hearabout. For example, with app sumo,
when I said we were sending emailsevery day, what we're originally doing
is just saying like, oh,you get one hundred bucks off this software.
That's it. That was the wholething. So you're like, Okay,
that's some value you saving money,right, that's kind of nice,
But it's like, why would youwant to buy the software? A lot
of people don't know much about thesoftware. So I remember one of the

(22:30):
first big hits we had. Therewas a company called Grasshopper, and it
basically makes a phone tree. Soif someone calls customer service or texts customer
service, it routes them to thecorrect place and it puts that hold music,
you know, like do do do? And then it directs them they
say which shipping department? Which departmentdo you want to go to? You
press one for shipping department. Inreality, it was just one person picking

(22:51):
up the phone. It was me. There was no different departments. But
it makes you sound big, now, who would want this? It was
companies like mine that were smaller butwant to look bigger. It was it
was lawyer offices where they were likerelatively small company and you just need a
little bit of time to direct tothe right place. And so this phone
tree service was very good at makingsmall people look big, people who are

(23:14):
not super professional look very professional.Right. And so I showed how I
personally use this to make my companylook like a proper legit company and help
my customers get routed to the rightarea so I could be ready when I
take their call. And by showingthem how this makes me money, how
this saves me time, they learnhow they can make money and make save
time and look better. Right.And so then they say, oh,

(23:37):
cool, Now at the end ofit, there's one hundred dollars off.
I want the software, right ifI just saide hundred dollars off, And
I'm like, what does it do? It's a phone tree, Like,
why would I I'm a lawyer,I don't need that. Then I show
them my whole story of how Iused it and how other people have used
it, and they go, oh, I can make it seem really really
professional and have more time to pickup the phone. And so once they

(24:00):
understand all of those things, that'swhat I'm doing. So, like I
said, I'm not trying to sell, I'm trying to educate and yes,
of course at the end, I'mgiving an offer that like, if you
want to buy this right now,here's the time, and do it right
now, you'll get a hundred bucksoff. Why waste a hundred bucks doing
it later? Do it now soas you can see, I'm trying to
help you. I'm trying to sellto you. I'm trying. Sorry,
I'm trying to sell to you byeducating you, not just by selling you.

(24:23):
So that's a much better argument,Like why you're gonna look better,
You're gonna look more professional, You'regonna you're gonna you're gonna make it much
better for your customers, and I'mgonna save you some money by doing it
now. That's a much better reasonthan just like, buy this now right.
So it's taking that extra time toput that in which which is more
difficult, but it makes a hugeimpact on sales. Yeah, yeah,

(24:44):
yeah, yeah, and the ROIis big. I mean you, it
takes time, especially as also justremember for a company like Appsumo or something
like that, or or the hustlewhere you're sending out an email every single
day, you will annoy people veryquick. If you're not delivering a lot
of value, right, So youhave to do this kind of thing.
And if you do it really well, people enjoy reading your newsletters and then

(25:07):
they share them, and then itgrows and it makes it available to more
people, and then you make alot more money so you can afford to
send out more emails and hire morepeople to write and things like that.
So it really does make a bigdifference. But if you're just going to
say, like, here's here's apiece of crap email and just keep sending
those out day after day, you'lljust wash your numbers, just go down,

(25:27):
right, you have to do agood job at it. If you
are enjoying this episode, please checkout my lead generation course. You can
watch it for free on guide todot link slash skill Share Gai t.
As an entrepreneur, marketer or businessowner, you know how crucial lead generation
is. In this course, I'llbe sharing with you twenty proven tactics for

(25:49):
lead generation in both B two Band B two C markets. You can
watch it for free on guide todot Link slash skill Share g A I.
T Oh. You'll find the linkin the description. One topic I
want to discuss with you is theAI in the copywriting world. So yeah,

(26:12):
big, you know, one ofthe when we I mean, when
when we started using chagipt Now it'sbeen a year and a half maybe more.
Maybe one of the first group ofpeople saying, oh, we're gonna
lose our job because of AI waspeople that were writing basically, so they

(26:34):
saw chagipit and they were kind ofscared of, you know, losing their
jobs. What do you think aboutthis whole thing, I mean, what's
the rule of chigipity or generative AIin general in copywriting right now in twenty
twenty four. Yeah, I've Imean I've invested in AI writing companies and

(26:56):
stuff, so I'm pretty familiar withthis. And let me let me break
it down. This is the easiestway to say it. What I have
noticed is that there's three different typesof writing. So there's low end writing
that's like you get a notification onInstagram, and Instagram sends you an email
says hey, you got a notification. That's like a template. Anyone can
do that. That's gone right,CHATJBT can do that so easily. That's

(27:17):
just like knocked out of the partin fact that was already kind of done.
The next one is like what Icall mid level writing. You're sending
an email to someone, maybe asale, just like a notification, an
update, as a news broadcast,something like that. Just mid level writing.
It's not the world's best, butit's just like notifying you of something,
giving you an update. So justsomething basic like that. Then I

(27:37):
say, there's like high end writingthat's like Bolagi Shovasanon or Mark Endresen,
the venture capitalist talking on Twitter right, analyzing whole things, giving hot takes
about it. AI is not goodat that yet yet. Maybe in the
future, absolutely, but not yet. So I would say for the lower
end writing and mid level writing,AI is kind of going to take those

(28:02):
things absolutely yes. So will itcompletely take your job, No, But
if you're doing all low end stuff, it probably will. If you're doing
higher end stuff talking to people,consulting, analyzing industry patterns, all that
stuff I think is still safe fora while in the future. Who knows
how advanced this gets. But atthe same time, I think what you're
actually doing as a copywriter or evenas a freelance business I don't know about

(28:25):
you, but most people aren't comingto me just to like update their emails.
It's oftentimes about strategy. It's oftentimes about emails along with their sales
page. Also like how they're pricingthings. It's like it's all of the
above. It's like, actually alarge skill set that's very valuable that will
still stay around. But if you'rejust someone that's writing for like you know,

(28:45):
one cent a word or something likethat, like notification emails, yeah,
that's gonna be gone. I mean, that's done. The other thing
is you can turn low end writinginto high end writing. Right, So
let's yeah, let's say you're sendingout an email and what so for example,
we have a forum and it sendsout an email that just says like

(29:07):
Neville responded to your comment. Right, that's that's low end stuff. Like
that's a template anyone can do that. Is there a way that I can
make that more interesting? Right?Is there something else I could put in
there along with that notification to belike, also, you might have been
reading about this, what if youdid this this? This? Is there
a way I can turn low endwriting into high end writing. That's a

(29:29):
big thing. So some people thinklike, oh, these notifications are done
for like no one will ever writethem. It's like, can we do
something about that? Can we changethis? Can we make these better?
That's another thing, and so Ido think also SEO has been dramatically impacted
by this. For example, there'sthings called library sites. Let's say you're
typing in what is a clincher sentenceand you look that up on Google.

(29:53):
In the past, you would lookit up on Google and find a link
and click it and then go there. Now with their generative search, which
is like four or five months old, and honestly, it's really, really,
really good. It answers the questionright up top. You don't have
to click anything, and I loveusing this. I don't want to click
on links. So I just readthat and I'm done. I leave those
sites that do library stuff like that. That's not a good place to be

(30:17):
at the moment, right, You'rejust at a place in history where that's
going to be less. Not allof it, right, Not all of
SEO is dead by any means,but at the same time, there are
going to be giant restructurings. Sothose types of sites, and you're relying
on those and just putting Google adSense up, I think that's that's gone.
So unless you're there giving like examplesof Clincher sentences and more. That's

(30:37):
going to be a tough space tobe And I think AI is going to
be so good at these like libraryquestions that are already answered on the Internet,
that that's going to be a toughspace to compete. Personally, I
would not want to be in thatspace. So I think go ahead,
No, No, I think forboth the examples that you made the key
ease, oh man, you shouldask your sif where is the value?

(31:00):
I mean, if you're just youknow, pushing keys on a keyboard,
where is the value? If you'rejust building you know, a blog with
as just saying you know, librarystuff, where's the value? So if
you're building something else, a realbusiness or somehow connecting the dots in an
industry, or what about this?What about So let's say I have a

(31:22):
I have copyrting course dot com right, and I had a blog post called
what is a clinch sentence? Anda ranked number one? And now it's
gone down down, now down,it gets no traffic. What if I
had made that blog Here's how Iused these clinch sentences to make five hundred
thousand dollars more per year. AndI showed on my different businesses how I
added those to each one. NowI'm adding specific examples. That's interesting.

(31:47):
That's something a little bit different.But just saying, like you said,
no value, like taking the Thesaurusdefinition or the Dictionary definition, just saying
what is a clinch sentence. It'sdone for We want human stories, personal
stories. Stuff if that can helpme, that stuff that could save me
time, save me money, ormake me money or give me back my
time so or make me better.So we want those types of things.

(32:08):
Those types of stories will still reallydo well. And honestly, I see
a lot of this also going tovideo. I mean, one of the
one of the things with generative AIthat I've seen happening is it's like,
Okay, where does this go infive years? And if all my traffic
is coming from SEO, and SEOis like going down. What we did
was like about two years ago,started really going hard into doing podcasts like

(32:30):
this and then breaking it up intoclips, and now we get more leads
from social media than we do fromSEO for the first time in twenty years.
That has flipped for me. SEOwas like a joke or sorry sorry,
Social was a joke and SEO waslike the real thing now, SEO
is just declining like crazy for alot of people, and social media stuff
is where everyone's hanging out. Andhere's the thing search engine optimization. It

(32:53):
used to be people searched for stuffand then found it on Google. But
now people are just on Instagram,they're browsing, they're on Facebook, they're
on TikTok, they're on YouTube.And it's like, if you could be
on the top of that algorithm,that's like the new form of search engine
optimization. How do you be ontop of people's minds as much as possible?
And I think that's one of thenew ways. So we've hedged our

(33:13):
bets with a lot of this kindof stuff and then we'll break this up
into clips and put it out andthings like that. So it just it's
shifted. Is it going to takeyour job? I don't know if it
will take your job per se,but it will shift your job around a
whole hell of a lot. CanI tell you why? I why I'm
not as scared as some people.I feel like I'm a little bit adaptable,

(33:34):
I think, and I'm a realist. That's just like certain parts of
this profession will be changed, right, For example, I used to know
how to do photoshop back in theday, like twenty years ago, and
because I could do photoshop, Icould put images online and that was really
difficult. Now it's so easy.You use AI to do that, use
Canva, you get all these templates. It's so easy to make images.
All the social networks help you doit. But that was like my big

(33:55):
edge back then. So you haveto relearn and have new edgesy each time.
And one of the things that Ithink people need to learn is not
just to like write, but becomelike a full stack writer. Right.
I need to be able to ifsomeone hires me as a writer, I
need to be versed in like pricingstuff I need to burse and writing really
good content. But good content involvesmaking cool images, making cool graphs,

(34:20):
analyzing things, doing research. It'snot just like simply typing out an email
anymore. It's like this whole otherthing. So when someone says like I
want to you to write a blogpost for me, they don't just want
to write a blog post and putit out. They want it to rank
and Google. They want it tobe able to be shared. I like
making content where I can take stufffrom that, like if I make a
graph for a blog post, Icould then use it in my newsletter.

(34:42):
I can then use it on socialmedia. I could then use it as
a slide in one of my YouTubevideos. I want to make content that
could be reused over and over andover. So I think like being like
a full stack writer is probably theway to go, not just being someone
that just types emails or something,because that will there is going to be
this encroachment with it as it getsbetter and better and better. What's what's

(35:04):
the first step? I mean,if someone is listening now and they are
thinking, oh, this is cool, I really want to be a copywrioter,
what's the first step to do this? Consis start writing. We usually
train people who already write, butwe also do freelancers and things like that,
and a lot of people will saythey'll see YouTube videos, Oh you

(35:24):
make one hundred thousand a year juston your computer on a beach or something,
and I'm like, have you everwritten anything? And they go no.
I'm like, okay, well,we don't even know if you're gonna
like this right, why don't youwrite three blog posts? So the first
step is write three blog posts.That's it. Just actual blog posts.
Sit down and write three blog posts. Tell me what you think of that
experience. If you can't get throughthat exercise, you probably should be a

(35:45):
copywriter. You don't like writing,that means you don't like writing. Then
the other thing is, I'm areally big fan of people recording videos and
people making images. I think thoseare very valuable skills that put you way
ahead of other copywriters. And there'sso many tools out there that help you
do this so easy. Canada isfree and amazing, and you can make
basic images. They're not the bestall the time, but it's like it's

(36:07):
something right. The other thing is, have kind of a unique style.
I have a unique style with likea lot of kind of goofy images and
things like that. I try tobe a little bit funny. They're having
a unique style will definitely start tostand out in the coming years. I
do think that's a big thing.And then also I think this broader thing,

(36:28):
think of yourself more as an entrepreneur, not just a copywriter. I
think sometimes people just they put blinderson there, like all I can do
is write copy It's like, isthat all you can do in life?
I think you can do a lotmore so, for example, just writing
emails for software companies. I dothink, like, yes, that's a
good skill to have, but like, think of yourself as an entrepreneur,

(36:50):
a business owner that solves problems,that creates things that sell, that creates
things that save time. And soI don't always think, like I said
in the beginning, a lot ofthe best copywriters you know do not run
copywriting businesses. They run other businesses, but they're very good at marketing their
other products. And so I waslike, keep an open mind about it.
I bet you see this all thetime. When people want to freelance.

(37:12):
They'll tell me I want to bea copywriter, like why they heard
someone talk about it, but they'venever written anything. And so I tell
them, how about this, Let'sbe a freelancer in general, not just
a copywriter. A freelancer, I'llsay what background do you have and they
go, oh, I have anaccounting degree. I used to be an
accountant for five years. I'm like, can you freelance in something like that
because you'll make money right away.You don't have to just make this big

(37:36):
jump to copywriter or we have noexperience, it takes tithing. You already
have experience and start freelancing with that, start a freelance business offering those types
of services on the side, andthen you could expand from there. And
so I always tell people, yeah, just don't narrow your options all the
time. Be flexible. You haveto be. When I was, when
I was just graduating from college,going to call it from high school,

(37:58):
everyone was moving from analog to digital, right newspapers, TV radio, those
were king, and the Internet wasjust starting to come up, and people
were like, is this real?Is going to be like a big thing?
And soon Now fast forward twenty somethingyears later, it's everywhere like you
don't even think about something like didyou read that online? Or did you
When you say you read something,people don't even ask if it's online or

(38:21):
not. It doesn't matter. It'sjust part of our lives. There's no
online offline anymore. It's just alleverything's online all the time. So that
transition has happened in my lifetime andI've seen it, and I think if
you were a person that's very closedminded and you thought only news, let
only newspapers are going to be theway that I go from now on,
I think you would have got phasedout, Yes, you would have lost

(38:43):
your job. You likely would havelost your job or been very underpaid.
Whereas if you were open to thisnew medium that says huh instead of a
newspaper that can only be read ina local area, I can broadcast my
thoughts to the entire world. Thosetypes of people who started blogs, who
started going online and publishing their ideasonline flourished during that growth era, whereas

(39:04):
people who did not pay attention toit just got left behind. So be
open minded about this stuff. Yeah, yeah, And do you do you
actually use AI in your day today work. I use it intermittently,
and not for what I thought Iwould use it for. Everyone thought I
would. We would use it forjust like writing emails. It turns out

(39:25):
it writes like okay emails. Sofor example, doctor's offices when they need
to reschedule the patient they need tosend them an email or text, they
run it through chat tobet and writethat. That's mid level, low level
copyright. Right. But if Iwant to send out an email newsletter and
you just have chat tobyt make it. You've seen it's it's kind of like

(39:45):
not the greatest. It's getting betterall the time, but it's still not
there at all. I mean it'sit's it doesn't make great content just yet,
and so that type of thing,like I actually don't use it that
often for that and then ideas andcoming up with lines and stuff. Sometimes
we use it, but I've justnoticed that not as much as we thought.

(40:06):
And I really wanted to. Ireally tried. I started putting out
all this AI content and people arekind of like, yeah, that's cool,
and then something else new comes out, and I think it's like lost
some of the momentum. It's nowjust becoming a normal tool that everyone's expecting.
And I have a feeling what's goingto happen in the future. And
this is just my prediction is thatis it going to be like human written

(40:28):
versus AI written. I think peoplearen't going to care. I think they
don't care so long as it's good. Right, If I'm reading good content
and like an AI made it,I don't care. Yeah, it doesn't
matter to me. Right Already we'rereading. If I type me, what
is a clincher sentence? And itdescribes me, that's AI telling me.
But it doesn't matter. I'm gettingthe information I want. It solved.
The problem. Yeah, I totallyagree with that. If there's value,

(40:52):
I don't care who wrote it.Right now, people like do do human
write this? Okay? Like,look, did did a human right an
opinion about what's going to happen betweenthe United States and China? And you
want to hear a specific person?I think that's still valid. But did
they use AI to research it?Probably? Do I care how they did
it, you know, I justdon't think that distinction is going to be

(41:13):
there much longer. Yeah, So, I think using AI as your friend
rather than your foe is going tobe very important. Just like during the
dawn of the Internet as it wasgrowing, people who ignored the Internet got
left behind. People who used itflourished during that time. So how can
you do your same job much moreefficient with AI is probably the question.

(41:34):
And just ignoring it or wishing itwould go away is a bad place to
be. Yeah. Yeah, Itotally agree. And you said that you
are using it, but not theway you thought. So exactly, what's
what's the main use that you dowith these tools? You know, honestly
I use more than chat jippten nowI actually use Google's just generative AI searchers

(42:00):
else so before in the past,for example, here's it easy. I
was buying a sauna, right,and I was it's very difficult to like
find good information about a lot ofthese things. So I'd say, what's
a sauna that can fit in fourby six feet? And it would give
me answers? It would, itwould, It would basically scour the web
for me and give me answers intwo seconds, and then I can click
those links that I needed to.That's a way that I've been using it

(42:22):
a lot more effectively. Honestly,Google, I think, is actually doing
a really good job at it.I know they're getting like wasted in the
media about it, but they're actuallydoing a pretty good job chatgibt. I
thought I'd be writing emails all thetime with it, actually not at all.
Like it just doesn't work good forthat yet. It doesn't make stuff
that I that is better than whatI can make. It makes basic emails

(42:45):
like you know, how do Ireschedule something? Or write me a quick
wedding speech? And I'll just writeit out and then So the way I
use chagibt is let me brainstorm withit. Right, I'm writing a book
right now and I'll say chapter abouta book about this, and I'll come
up with some stuff and I'll belike, Ooh, that's a good idea,
but that's not a good idea.That's a good idea, but that's

(43:06):
not a good idea. So useit as a brainstorming mechanism more so than
a final product mechanism. It's likea research tool, I would say,
rather than a writing tool. Thatstorming away and probably brainstorming is probably the
most powerful thing that you can dowith chigipity, with this tooling, especially
if you work alone, if youdon't have a team, you are like

(43:28):
a freelancer. You don't have someoneyou know to brainstorm women having us a
great partner with that. If youwatch videos of early computers in the fifties
and sixties when they were like beinginvented, they were like, the number
one use case is going to befor storing recipes, Right, women can
store recipes on a computer and pullthem up anytime. It turns out that's

(43:49):
like one percent of one percent ofone percent of one percent of what we
use computers for. And I thinkit's difficult to tell in the beginning,
like how are you going to useit? But I think we have to
break these these chains of thought thatwe're so used to. For example,
I can't code very well. Iknow how to write code, but I
can't make anything good. With CHATCHBT, you can actually write all the code

(44:10):
for certain things. It's not thegreatest yet, it's not like one hundred
percent there. But now I cansay I could build a game of snake
and just do it. I wantto make the snake look blue and eat
an apple. You just do itand it writes it and does it.
That's a skill that I couldn't dobefore that I now can do. And
so you have to think like,Okay, I used to have to hire
a developer to make an app ora Chrome extension. Now I can just

(44:32):
do it myself. And so Ithink it's enabling all these different fields of
study that you just couldn't do before, and now you can just do it
by telling the computer to do it. And so a lot of people think
in these narrow terms of like justcopywriting, What can I do with copywriting?
Now I'm like, forget just thecopyrighting, that's just the marketing aspect.
Can I build a software company myself? I can I do this?

(44:53):
Now because before I couldn't, andso it opens up these whole new avenues.
So I think, like I said, be flexible with your thinking that
like not just how do I makecopywriting better? It's like what else can
I do with this technology? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, you said that
you're writing a book. Oh youwant to tell me a bit more or
is it too early? No?I actually have two books. Once called

(45:15):
You're Going to Die on Amazon thatwas just like it was actually a long
blog post a converted to a book. But my most popular books called this
book will teach you how to writebetter, and it's basically like forty pages
and quickly designed for like in thirtyminutes, get better at copywriting, and
so many people give it to theirsalespeople and stuff. So that book did
really well. And I'm writing anothercopywriting book. I can't say the name
right now, but it's going tobe a self published one, and it's

(45:36):
going to be on a topic thatlike every single person we teach copyrighting just
like loves this topic. And soI was like I didn't want to write
it. I didn't want to writelike another writing book, but I was
like, this is going to beso quick and small. It'll be like
six by nine, very small,and you could read it in under thirty
minutes. That's the goal. Andyou read it and you go, oh,
I can use that for the restof my life. That's the goal

(45:57):
of the book. So that Ishould be finished with it in June,
So next month I should have itcompletely written. It's about twenty five thirty
five percent written. I'm working ona hardcore in June and then I'll release
it later this year. Yeah.Nice. Also when the book is out,
AI AI helps brainstorm very well withit. Yeah, when the book
is out, if you want tocome back to the podcast, you're very

(46:19):
welcome. Sure, Yeah, ofcourse. Yeah. I love to talk
about and Neville. We usually endthese conversations here on the podcast with two
questions, very simple but very importantfor me for my audience. So do
you want to share with us booksand tools? So let's start with books.
Do you have any really cool booksthat you I don't know I had

(46:42):
read books? Yeah? Absolutely,three copywriting books and I'm assuming you mean
like content creation and things like that. Number One Ogilvy on Advertising written by
the great legendary Ogilvy, and hetalks not only he talks about a lot
of direct response back in the dayhe loved like he would have loved the
Internet era if he had lived tosee. But he also talks about how
to sell like a brand of riceto an entire country, Like if everyone

(47:06):
buys this one brand of rice,how can you convince them to do it?
Through television, through media, throughall that kind of stuff. Brilliant,
brilliant book, very fun, veryeducating. Number two is Getting Everything
you Can out of All You've Got, and that's by Jay Abraham and he's
a business consultant. He's written maybetwenty thirty books, but this one's my
favorite. And it's not just aboutcoperating, but just like about selling in

(47:27):
general. And he talks about allthese different stories about how he's made bought
small companies and made them bigger throughjust creative marketing. Really good book.
And then the last one I wouldrecommend is going to be The Boron Letters
by Gary Helbert. And this isfree online. You can type in the
Boron Letters Gary Helbert and find him. Chapters is twenty six chapters one through
twenty six. Read those. Iwould suggest you print them out if you

(47:49):
can, because that's how they weredesigned to be read. And what I
would say is listen to the contentand how he gets you to turn the
page, like how he keeps youinterested in a story that notice what he's
doing as he writes it. He'sa very interesting character. He's kind of
crazy. The first three chapters areabout more health than than marketing. But
he says how that's related to everything, and that's what got me into copywriting.

(48:14):
It's launched so many careers. SoThe Born Letters by Gary Helbert.
And then lastly he asked about atool, right, yeah, tools,
What do you use to take notes? Old school? Old school notebook?
Nice? I mean us notion alot, but mostly not book. I

(48:34):
mean I use I use notes aswell for my to do list, but
for notes, I do notice Iused to use books. But the problem
is I want to pull them upall the time and look at them,
and I can't find them if Iwrite them down, Whereas if I write
them down at Google note or AppleNotes or something like that, I can
find them. So I use acombination of tools of Apple Notes, which
just it's always on my phone.It's easy and shares across all my devices.

(48:55):
But the other thing is Google Keepand I think that's like an undercut
one that a lot of people don'trealize it's it's basically like Pinterest, your
own Pinterest, super easy. Ihave a Chrome extension. Anytime I like
something, a tweet, an image, anything, click that boop says it
done. You could write a headlinefor it or no headline. You could
write a description for it or nodescription. You could save the link,
save an image, post a video, anything. It's so freaking easy,

(49:20):
and it's always updated across my phone, my computer, my web browser anywhere,
and anytime I need inspiration for something, I could just go on that.
You'd also tag stuff, so anytimeyou see a quote, you can
tag it and then they go throughthat and it's my own like personal swipe
file is stuff, So I haveswipefile dot com, but I also wanted
like a personal version of stuff,and I save all sorts of crazy things

(49:40):
in there. And you could putlike ten images in one post or one
image or it just it's so easyto use that. Google keep is one
of those things where I'm like,I can't believe more people don't know about
it. And then if you havethousands of notes, you just click export
and it puts it all in aGoogle doc for you, images, quotes,
everything. It's fantastic and it's freeand it works with all of your
Google products. So if you useGmail, if you use Google Drive.

(50:04):
In the right hand sidebar, there'slikely little icon right there that you've never
seen. It's a yellow icon justsitting right there. You click it.
That's Google Keep. You never clickedit, but it's right there. I'm
on my Gmail right now, Iclick Google Keep. All my notes are
right there. Just drag it rightin right there, and you probably didn't
even notice it. Yeah, verypowerful tool, Very powerful tool. Nevil.

(50:25):
Do you want to share with usany links where they can find you,
read you follow you? Yeah?Absolutely, I'm all over the web.
I say, number one place isgoing to copyrighting course dot com.
Just type that in the first page. Have an email sign up, Just
just sign up for that. Ifyou don't like it, you could unsubscribe.
But I think I have a reallygood auto responder of emails. So
that's how you follow me, andthen you could also find me on YouTube.

(50:49):
I have a podcast and we dovideos and all that kind of stuff.
We have one hundred thousand plus subscribersand you type in copyrighting with the
K and you'll just find me,or you can type in nevill Ladora.
Also on Amazon. A lot ofpeople buy my book. And that's just
like an easy fun things five orten dollars, super cheap. Teach you
to get better at coperating. Themain thing is on coporating course, we
have a membership. It's ninety ninebucks a month or seven hundred and fifty

(51:14):
dollars a year if you want tosave a bunch of money. And basically
what we do is we teach youcopyrighting, but also you get access for
a whole year to this community whereyou can post your stuff and we go
and rewrite it myself and other professionalcopywriters and people in the community. And
then every week we do a liveoffice hours like this where eight people will
get on a call and you wejust work on your stuff. So it's

(51:34):
like free consulting. And so thoseare the two most valuable things. So
join copyrighting course. And here's thething. Let's say you spend seven hundred
and fifty bucks for a year tojoin. If I update one email of
yours or change of pricing strategy,and you get two more customers. You
more than pay for your entire thing, so people will get like one change
on their page and be like,holy crap, this made twenty five percent

(51:58):
more money and like tenext my returnon that. So our goal is always
a ten xt anything that you spendwith us. So copyredcourse dot com and
join probably the absolute best way toget started. Nice. I leave all
the links in the description below.Neville, thank you so much for this
was great, Thanks for your time, thanks for having me, great to
meet you, and thanks everyone forlistening. I appreciate it. Thanks so

(52:20):
much. Thanks for listening to thisepisode of the podcast. I hope you
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