September 3, 2025 • 23 mins
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Decorated Combat VeteranCorporate; U.S. Marine Corps Urban Warfare Instrictor;
S.R.T. Commander Active Shooter Response Team
Law Enforcement Los Angeles Police (L.A.P.D.) Police Officer / Fugitive Recovery
F.B.I. Instructor N.R.A Instructor
Competition Shooter; Multi Time State Rifle Pistol Champion
Hunting; Life Long Hunter Proffessional Hunter and Guide
Private Security Contractor; Several Agencies, Current.
GOD Provides / JESUS Saves
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gunfighter-life-survival-guns-tactical-hunting--4187306/support.
Have a Blessed Day
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What is going on gun fighters Savage Gunfighters. We're gonna
talk about some Savage cartridges today, Cartridges by a Savage.
There are some interesting ones up to the thirty Cows
in the Savage. I think in the discussion of firearms Americana,
(00:25):
we often look at Winchester and Remington Colt, but Savage
Savage has a long and storied history and often ahead
of their time. So let's look at some Savage cartridges today.
We'll talk a little bit about their straight up facts,
(00:46):
a little bit about what they were and still are
good for. That is what we are going to talk
about today on Gunfighter Life. Welcome to the podcast where
we talk about guns, gun fighting, tactics, ballistics, the right way,
with all Mighty God at the center, Judeo Christian values
(01:07):
and real world first hand experience. Now a disclaimer here
I say real world first hand experience. I have real
world first hand experience in military, law enforcement, hunting, guiding,
competitive shooting. I don't have any first hand experience with
the Savage cartridges. I'm aware of them, I've never used them,
(01:28):
I don't own any can look at their numbers from
the ballistic characteristics and deduce certain things about them, But
I just want to say that upfront. I can talk
about what they would would not be good for. I
can talk about some of the cool history, but I'm
not the guy that's, you know, hunted with my grandfather's
Savage ninety nine and three hundred Savage for four generations.
(01:49):
This is not me. I don't have that experience, so
I don't want to misrepresent myself here. Instead of going
old to newest, let's start with the smaller and go
up to the larger, the twenty two Savage High Power.
I'll be getting some of these facts from Wikipedia, as again,
(02:09):
I don't have a ton of experience with these. Take
what Wikipedia says with a grain of salt, but they're
usually pretty legit on their basic facts. Created by Charles
Newton and introduced by Savage Arms in nineteen twelve. Nineteen
twelve pre at least for the Americans at WW one,
(02:34):
I was fourteen to seventeen for US and was designed
to be used in a Savage ninety nine hammerless lever
action rifle. Now I'm gonna back up. I've just read
a little bit, but two things are gonna come up
over and over again. We're talking about these cartridges. One
is Charles Newton. Charles Newton was a big name in
(02:58):
what we would call today in flume wincer, designer, engineer
of cartridges in the early twentieth century. Obviously I wasn't
alive then, but we see this name coming up over
and over again and the firearms uld. If you dig
deep enough in cartridges of the early twentieth century, you'll
see Charles Newton often on the bleeding edge of cartridge
(03:23):
technology and the Savage ninety nine. The Savage ninety nine
also on the bleeding edge, way ahead of its time.
The ninety nine standing for eighteen ninety nine came out
at a time when people were still shooting black powder cartridges,
and the majority still today of lever actions are a
tube magazine, meaning you generally can't shoot spitzer or pointed
(03:46):
bullets through them. This one's way ahead of its time,
this one, but you shoot proper full powered rifle cartridges
and a fast, handy rifle. Some of them even take
down a rotary magazine, which is pretty sweet. I think
some may have had detactable box magazines, some had a rotary,
and some had a rotary of the counter. This gun
(04:07):
was way ahead of its time, we'll see it was
very popular and a lot of these cartridges will have
been chambered in or designed for the Savage ninety nine.
Now getting back to the twenty two Savage High Power
based on the twenty two to thirty five Winchester cartridge.
But you don't hear about a lot of wildcats based
(04:28):
on the twenty two to thirty five Winchester. And this
is where it gets a little a little odd for
today neck down to accept the two two seven and
two twenty eight diameter bullets. Now, if you're not super
familiar with Ballistic's nerdery reloading, kind of the standard today
for twenty two center fires is point two to four
(04:49):
diameter bullets like a two twenty three two twenty Swift
twenty two two fifty those are point two to four
diameter bullets. This cartridge predates all those. There wasn't really
a set standard, so they settled on a twenty two
caliber of point two two seven point two two eight.
Is that going to make a big difference ballistically, No,
it's just interesting that this predates all those other twenty
(05:12):
two calibers. A high velocity twenty two caliber in nineteen twelve,
How fast, how high velocity? Its original loading was a
seventy grain soft point bullet with a velocity of twenty
seven ninety feet per second. That is impressive now if
(05:34):
we look at for a long time, the standard in
the two twenty three five five six military loading was
a fifty five grain ball at around thirty two hundred
feet a second. When they went to sixty two grain
in a rifle generally around three thousand feet a second,
you get heavier than the sixty two grain you'll generally
drop into the twenties. This is a seventy grain bullet
(05:57):
at twenty seven ninety I would call this an intermediate cartridge.
But I would say if you look at it ballistically now,
a Savage in ninety nine is not a is not
gonna go toe to toe, So don't have any delusions
of grange. Er, don't run into the apocalypse with your
Savage ninety nine unless it's just all you have. But oh,
it's not gonna keep up with an Air fifteen, not
gonna keep up with the Mini fourteen. It's not a
(06:19):
box magazine fed, shoulder fired auto loading rifle, but pretty
fast and handy for its time. And if you look
at the cartridge ballistically, it's right up there with the
two twenty three. Now, looking at a picture of it,
it looks nothing like it two twenty three. It actually
reminds me of very similar to a seven sixty two
by fifty four R. They got shrunk down kind of
(06:41):
that high taper which a lot of cartridges had back
in the day, like three seventy five h and h
like the aforementioned seven sixtyo by fifty four R. Because
metallurgy and things like that weren't what they are today,
and it helped an extraction. We even see this still
in the seven sixt two by thirty nine. It's got
a high body taper. Once cartridge gets pulled back a
little bit, it should break free of the chamber because
(07:03):
it's got such a high taper. This cartridge has a
similarly high taper, kind of a long shoulder, long neck.
Again for the day, that is pretty standard. What was
not standard was the velocity and kind of that concept
of a high velocity twenty two caliber of seventy grains
(07:23):
and a light, handy rifle or car being very ahead
of its time. Now let's look to the twenty five caliber,
the two fifty three thousand Savage. Now this one you
may have heard of, because the next thing I'm gonna
tell you is fairly well known amongst firearms historians. It
(07:44):
was the first, I think, commercially available cartridge that at
least advertised of a medium board cartridge over three thousand
feet a second. The two fifty three thousand Savage you
may just hear it as the two fifty Savage. By
the two fifty three thousand Savage pushed a bullet of
twenty five caliber over or at at or above three
(08:07):
thousand feet per second. And when was it doing this?
Because that's pretty vanilla today. But what's vanilla today? Was
I don't know, the craziest flavor you could think of,
you know, back in the day, Rocky Road Moose Tracks
nineteen fifteen. I'm going to the wiki now, I didn't
(08:28):
know that one by Heart nineteen fifteen was designed to
be used in a Savage Model ninety nine handlets lever
action rifle. The name comes from its original manufacturer, Savage Arms,
and the fact that the original load achieved three thousand
feet per second velocity with an eighty seven grain bullet.
Eighty seven grains nothing to sneeze at just scrolling down
(08:52):
here parent case thirty to six. That's pretty cool. I
didn't know that now me talking here, not in this
cartridge and not in this exact caliber, but in two
forty three, which is a little bit smaller zero point
twenty four caliber versus twenty five caliber. One of my
(09:12):
favorite loads for deer, an old handload of mine. I'm
not gonna give you exact data, but an eighty five
grain Sierra game king over varget in a two forty
three is just a deer dropper of around. It performs
swimmingly in deer size game. Now, the bullet technology may
(09:34):
not have been there in nineteen hundred and fifteen, but
as soon as they got you know, soft point decent
hunting bullets, especially by the time the corlock rolled around,
there's no reason this is not a fantastic deer cartridge. Also,
the eighty seven grain at three thousand, it's not a
two forty three in power, but it's I would not
hesitate to use it on deer size game. Let's look
(09:56):
at some of the other loadings listed on the wiki.
Seventy five I have grain at thirty one seventy a
ninety grain at twenty nine nine seven, a one hundred
grain at twenty eight sixty four and one hundred and
seventeen grain at twenty six fifty four, and that certainly
would be a decent it's a larger, larger deer size game. Now,
(10:17):
the other the more popular today twenty five is the
twenty five out six, both based on the thirty all six.
But this one's a little bit smaller, a little bit
neck down. It's it's not equal to a twenty five
out six, but it's again certainly powerful enough in my
opinion for deer and deer size game twentieth century. Like
(10:38):
the firearms officionados that wanted this kind of for the
time very high performing hot rod cartridge, I would assume
this has taken a ton of deer, literally over a
ton and figuratively. To give credit also, Charles Newton designed
the two fifty three thousand Savage. Next, we're gonna go
(11:01):
to the three or three Savage. I believe this is
the oldest of the cartridges we're gonna talk about today
by Savage. Now, when you hear three or three today,
you might think three or three brit too. It was
a pretty popular cartridge back then. So it got its
name via that, but it really has nothing to do
with the three or three British cartridge. And I know
(11:21):
almost nothing about this cartridge, so we're gonna go to
the Wikipedia pretty early. The three or three Savage is
a rimmed thirty caliber rifle cartridge developed by Savage Arms
Company in eighteen ninety four. Eighteen ninety four, did I
say ahead of its time? On some other cartridges, this
(11:41):
one ahead of its time? Why? Because if you're familiar,
Winchester has an eighteen ninety four, very very very famous cartridge,
are very very famous rather rifle slash carbing the eighteen
ninety four iconic Western And you think like Western, you're
probably thinking of a ninety four. You're probably not thinking
of a Savage ninety nine. I guess it doesn't look
(12:03):
as cool. Savage ninety nine is are kind of futuristic
even for today, right, and they're well over one hundred
years old, kind of got this steampunk, kind of sleek
but classic aesthetic. I couldn't picture you probably don't picture
John Wayne Rock and one in McClintock whatever. I don't
know what you're so that took place, but you get
the idea doesn't look like your traditional lever action because
(12:25):
it wasn't. Again, it was ahead of its time. This
came out eighteen ninety four of this cartridge, and pretty
soon after chambered in. The Model eighteen ninety nine was
not like many of the other pretty much all the
other that I'm aware of lever action cartridges where it
was kind of black powder and designed for round bullets,
(12:47):
even if they later were loaded with smokeless powder, they
had to use a round bullet because or a round
nose bullet because they were loaded in a tubular magazine. Again,
the Savage ninety nine does not suffer that handicap. That
was me interjecting. Let's get back to what this says.
Eighteen ninety four, which designed for a short which was
(13:07):
designed as a short as short as the thirty thirty
Winchester action cartridge for the Savage model eighteen ninety five
and later the eighteen ninety nine handless lover action rifle.
The cartridge was designed for smokeless powder and at a
time when black powder cartridges were still popular. The three
h three Savage round was ballistically superior to the thirty thirty,
(13:29):
but only marginally. This says that The cartridge remained popular
through the nineteen thirties. Says various loads. One hundred and
ninety grand load was used on such animals as deer
and moose. Now, let us look here at this what
they have here and the three h three I do
(13:50):
believe has a point. To clarify, the three or three
British has a three point one to two I believe
diameter bullet. This is name the three or three. It
is not. It has a regular American point three toh
eight diameter bullet, just to clarify that. But it lists
(14:13):
a one hundred and seventy grain at sixteen forty nine
foot pounds. I would classify this as an intermediate cartridge again,
as I mentioned in the article, very similar to a
thirty thirty. Thirty thirty is h I would consider a
decent intermediate cartridge, maybe America's first intermediate cartridge. This one
was right behind it. A decent intermediate cartridge with the
(14:35):
benefit of spitzer bullets. It's not a full powered rifle cartridge.
If you look at that, you're looking at two thousand
feet a second. It's quite a bit slower than what
I would consider full powered rifle rounds like a three
oh eight thirty o six, but certainly, let's say inside
two two hundred and fifty yards with depending on how
(14:59):
decent bullets were then and what it was loaded with,
a decent deer, and even quite a bit larger than
deer at two two hundred and fifty yards. It's a
good cartridge, but not good enough for it the last
long In fact, Savage itself replaced the cartridge pretty soon
with the last cartridge. We're going to talk about the
three hundred Savage. Now. From what I know about the
(15:22):
three hundred Savage, it is basically a three to eight,
a little bit less than here or there, a little
bit less modern, but it's much older. But basically, if
you think of the class now, it's not exact. It's
a little bit less powerful, but you're splitting hairs. Anything
the three o eight can do, the three hundred Savage
can do and was doing it earlier. Doesn't mean it's
(15:44):
just as good a cartridge. That doesn't mean you should
get a machine gun chambered in it instead of the
three toh eight, right, doesn't mean that at all. But
you think about whatever you're hunting, if you've done it
with a three toh eight. You could hunt it with
a three hundred savage in a similar load. The three
hundred savage this is from the wiki, is a rimless,
so we moved from rim to rimless. You'll notice a
(16:06):
lot of the early metallic cartridges were rimmed to help
with extraction, just the metallurgy the brass cases. But once
they pretty much got that worked out, you see a
lot of move towards rimless cartridges. This scartridge is no
different a rimless meaning the rim doesn't stick out any
farther than the case body. Thirty caliber rifle carturee developed
(16:30):
by Savage Arms Company in it in nineteen twenty. Now
think about this, This is a kind of a shorter
I'll get to the power later, but I would call
it a full powered again, comparing it to the full powered,
shorter kind of short action thirty caliber round full powered,
full powered rifle cartridge in nineteen twenty. The military slash
(16:52):
Winchester did not do this with the three O eight
until the nineteen fifties, mid nine, early to mid nineteen fifties,
so twenty a lot happened between nineteen twenty and nineteen fifty.
I don't think I have to tell you that. But uh,
pretty crazy how much older this cartridge is as at
least as far as firearms development history goes to replace
(17:14):
the three or three Savage popular Savage Model ninety nine
handlet's lover action rifle, which was started to produce again,
which they started to produce again as the Model ninety nine,
as well as the Savage Model nineteen twenty bolt action rifle.
So we see Savage here. They're kind of known today
for their bolt action rifle. I don't know if this
(17:35):
was their first one, but here their Savage Model nineteen
twenty bolt action rifle. Despite having a shortcase in order
to fit the original model ninety nine magazine any rather
stumpy neck, the cartridge is capable of producing one hundred
and fifty grain bullets it over twenty six thousand feet
per second. Now, if we think about I generally remember
(17:59):
three as one hundred and fifty grand at twenty one
hundred feet a second. Now that varies based on you know,
weather conditions, altitude, barrel length, even tiny things like different
kind of rifling. But in general, general numbers three O
eight one hundred and fifty twenty eight hundred, just one
hundred and fifty at twenty six hundred. That's pretty close, right,
(18:21):
That's that's that's pretty close for nineteen twenty, and probably
could do better today if your gun can handle it
with better powders. Because just like the original thirty all
six or modern thirty oh six is quite a bit faster,
I imagine this with modern powder should be quite a
bit faster even keeping it in safe pressures. So again,
(18:41):
it's a full powered rifle cartridge. And if you if
you really know like three oweight, if you've held enough
three weight in your hand, if you held this in
your hand, you'd be like, yeah, it's not a three
o eight, but it looks pretty close, and again far
predates it. And this lists a here one hundred and
fifty grain at twenty six thirty, I mean think Corlock
(19:04):
and at lists a one hundred and fifty grain Hornety
Superformance at twenty seven forty. So again modern, more modern loading,
like we talked about, this lists one hundred and eighty
grain Federal Soft Point Factory at twenty three fifty. Just
has a couple of handloads, but it's a full powered
rifle round. And it's a full powered rifle round that
(19:25):
again is it as powerful as a three oh eight. No,
but anything that I would hunt with a three awa,
I wouldn't be like, well, I do with a three away.
But the three hundred Savage, it's a peace shooter. It's
it's in the ballpark. It's probably even the same league,
the same game, same double, a triple, a kind of status, right,
It's it's close. Now. I mentioned that these rounds were
(19:48):
ahead of their time. We're not in that time. I
think they're quite a bit dated today. Now, there's only
a few reasons I could think of using these today.
The big one is tradition, especially family tradition. Right, if
you have one of these rifles, like a Savage ninety nine,
passed down from generation to generation, still in good shape,
(20:11):
is still shootable. It's the Savage ninety nine modern by
today's standards. No, but it's still a good rifle. You
can still hunt deer with it. You can still hunt
the appropriate game for the appropriate cartridge with it. The
family tradition, right, if this was a hand me down
gun and you're you should be proud of that and
you should use it. The other one is you're a
collector and you just want something different, right again, I said,
(20:34):
these had their kind of their own aesthetic, steampunk, antique,
modern of whatever. I don't know what it would be
called if it was, you know, an aesthetic, but it's very,
very unique. So you just want a lever action or
you want something different from the early to mid twentieth century.
They're good rifles. Does it make practical sense when you
(20:56):
could go out and get a new Savage, a Savage
Access for four one hundred dollars and a three to
zero eight and a thirty out six and a six
five Creed more. No, But that doesn't make them a
bad rifle. So those are two reasons. One is you
just see a really sweet deal on one at a
(21:16):
at a flea market, not a flea market. I probably
als sall guns in flea markets, but out like in
a state sale or a garage sale or a local
gun store that just you know, these things aren't highly
coveted like a pre sixty four Winchester generally are. Now.
They might be if it's some kind of collector thing
in an uber rare caliber. They came in a ton
of calibers, not just the ones we talked about today,
but in general, these aren't crazy coveted guns. They're not
(21:39):
like a pre sixty four Winchester Model seventy in general,
but there are good guns. So if you get a
good deal on one, might Let's be really, you're hunting
white tailed deer out of a deer stand on the
East coast inside of two hundred yards. It's not really
so much about the rifle in that case, as much
as we might want to pretend that it is. I
grew up hunting that way. It's more about just being
(22:01):
in the stand at the right time. Right you're sitting
in the stand and you're paying attention. That's probably the
way bigger factor there. You want to do a retro hunt,
get your ll Bean boots, get you a red and
black plaid shirt and a Jones hat or a Trapper hat. Hey,
some people love the hunting as much for the tradition
as they do for the meat. Nothing wrong with that.
(22:23):
These are good cartridges. They're cool cartridges, and they I
thought were worth doing an episode on the Savage Cartridges.
I want to misrepresent them, pretend they's something that they're not.
They were very much ahead of their time. They're dated today,
they're inefficient today, They're not ineffective today. Just like a
lot of people hunt with a thirty thirty, a lot
(22:43):
of people humpt without forty five to seventy's. Just because
they're dated and inefficient doesn't make them ineffective. So I
thought I would just kind of do an episode on
the Savage Cartridges. I think this is all of them.
I could be wrong, although I was aware of or
could find in brief research. I appreciate you, guys. I
(23:04):
appreciate all that you do. Thank you for listening, and
have a blessed day.
What is going on gun fighters Savage Gunfighters. We're gonna
talk about some Savage cartridges today, Cartridges by a Savage.
There are some interesting ones up to the thirty Cows
in the Savage. I think in the discussion of firearms Americana,
(00:25):
we often look at Winchester and Remington Colt, but Savage
Savage has a long and storied history and often ahead
of their time. So let's look at some Savage cartridges today.
We'll talk a little bit about their straight up facts,
(00:46):
a little bit about what they were and still are
good for. That is what we are going to talk
about today on Gunfighter Life. Welcome to the podcast where
we talk about guns, gun fighting, tactics, ballistics, the right way,
with all Mighty God at the center, Judeo Christian values
(01:07):
and real world first hand experience. Now a disclaimer here
I say real world first hand experience. I have real
world first hand experience in military, law enforcement, hunting, guiding,
competitive shooting. I don't have any first hand experience with
the Savage cartridges. I'm aware of them, I've never used them,
(01:28):
I don't own any can look at their numbers from
the ballistic characteristics and deduce certain things about them, But
I just want to say that upfront. I can talk
about what they would would not be good for. I
can talk about some of the cool history, but I'm
not the guy that's, you know, hunted with my grandfather's
Savage ninety nine and three hundred Savage for four generations.
(01:49):
This is not me. I don't have that experience, so
I don't want to misrepresent myself here. Instead of going
old to newest, let's start with the smaller and go
up to the larger, the twenty two Savage High Power.
I'll be getting some of these facts from Wikipedia, as again,
(02:09):
I don't have a ton of experience with these. Take
what Wikipedia says with a grain of salt, but they're
usually pretty legit on their basic facts. Created by Charles
Newton and introduced by Savage Arms in nineteen twelve. Nineteen
twelve pre at least for the Americans at WW one,
(02:34):
I was fourteen to seventeen for US and was designed
to be used in a Savage ninety nine hammerless lever
action rifle. Now I'm gonna back up. I've just read
a little bit, but two things are gonna come up
over and over again. We're talking about these cartridges. One
is Charles Newton. Charles Newton was a big name in
(02:58):
what we would call today in flume wincer, designer, engineer
of cartridges in the early twentieth century. Obviously I wasn't
alive then, but we see this name coming up over
and over again and the firearms uld. If you dig
deep enough in cartridges of the early twentieth century, you'll
see Charles Newton often on the bleeding edge of cartridge
(03:23):
technology and the Savage ninety nine. The Savage ninety nine
also on the bleeding edge, way ahead of its time.
The ninety nine standing for eighteen ninety nine came out
at a time when people were still shooting black powder cartridges,
and the majority still today of lever actions are a
tube magazine, meaning you generally can't shoot spitzer or pointed
(03:46):
bullets through them. This one's way ahead of its time,
this one, but you shoot proper full powered rifle cartridges
and a fast, handy rifle. Some of them even take
down a rotary magazine, which is pretty sweet. I think
some may have had detactable box magazines, some had a rotary,
and some had a rotary of the counter. This gun
(04:07):
was way ahead of its time, we'll see it was
very popular and a lot of these cartridges will have
been chambered in or designed for the Savage ninety nine.
Now getting back to the twenty two Savage High Power
based on the twenty two to thirty five Winchester cartridge.
But you don't hear about a lot of wildcats based
(04:28):
on the twenty two to thirty five Winchester. And this
is where it gets a little a little odd for
today neck down to accept the two two seven and
two twenty eight diameter bullets. Now, if you're not super
familiar with Ballistic's nerdery reloading, kind of the standard today
for twenty two center fires is point two to four
(04:49):
diameter bullets like a two twenty three two twenty Swift
twenty two two fifty those are point two to four
diameter bullets. This cartridge predates all those. There wasn't really
a set standard, so they settled on a twenty two
caliber of point two two seven point two two eight.
Is that going to make a big difference ballistically, No,
it's just interesting that this predates all those other twenty
(05:12):
two calibers. A high velocity twenty two caliber in nineteen twelve,
How fast, how high velocity? Its original loading was a
seventy grain soft point bullet with a velocity of twenty
seven ninety feet per second. That is impressive now if
(05:34):
we look at for a long time, the standard in
the two twenty three five five six military loading was
a fifty five grain ball at around thirty two hundred
feet a second. When they went to sixty two grain
in a rifle generally around three thousand feet a second,
you get heavier than the sixty two grain you'll generally
drop into the twenties. This is a seventy grain bullet
(05:57):
at twenty seven ninety I would call this an intermediate cartridge.
But I would say if you look at it ballistically now,
a Savage in ninety nine is not a is not
gonna go toe to toe, So don't have any delusions
of grange. Er, don't run into the apocalypse with your
Savage ninety nine unless it's just all you have. But oh,
it's not gonna keep up with an Air fifteen, not
gonna keep up with the Mini fourteen. It's not a
(06:19):
box magazine fed, shoulder fired auto loading rifle, but pretty
fast and handy for its time. And if you look
at the cartridge ballistically, it's right up there with the
two twenty three. Now, looking at a picture of it,
it looks nothing like it two twenty three. It actually
reminds me of very similar to a seven sixty two
by fifty four R. They got shrunk down kind of
(06:41):
that high taper which a lot of cartridges had back
in the day, like three seventy five h and h
like the aforementioned seven sixtyo by fifty four R. Because
metallurgy and things like that weren't what they are today,
and it helped an extraction. We even see this still
in the seven sixt two by thirty nine. It's got
a high body taper. Once cartridge gets pulled back a
little bit, it should break free of the chamber because
(07:03):
it's got such a high taper. This cartridge has a
similarly high taper, kind of a long shoulder, long neck.
Again for the day, that is pretty standard. What was
not standard was the velocity and kind of that concept
of a high velocity twenty two caliber of seventy grains
(07:23):
and a light, handy rifle or car being very ahead
of its time. Now let's look to the twenty five caliber,
the two fifty three thousand Savage. Now this one you
may have heard of, because the next thing I'm gonna
tell you is fairly well known amongst firearms historians. It
(07:44):
was the first, I think, commercially available cartridge that at
least advertised of a medium board cartridge over three thousand
feet a second. The two fifty three thousand Savage you
may just hear it as the two fifty Savage. By
the two fifty three thousand Savage pushed a bullet of
twenty five caliber over or at at or above three
(08:07):
thousand feet per second. And when was it doing this?
Because that's pretty vanilla today. But what's vanilla today? Was
I don't know, the craziest flavor you could think of,
you know, back in the day, Rocky Road Moose Tracks
nineteen fifteen. I'm going to the wiki now, I didn't
(08:28):
know that one by Heart nineteen fifteen was designed to
be used in a Savage Model ninety nine handlets lever
action rifle. The name comes from its original manufacturer, Savage Arms,
and the fact that the original load achieved three thousand
feet per second velocity with an eighty seven grain bullet.
Eighty seven grains nothing to sneeze at just scrolling down
(08:52):
here parent case thirty to six. That's pretty cool. I
didn't know that now me talking here, not in this
cartridge and not in this exact caliber, but in two
forty three, which is a little bit smaller zero point
twenty four caliber versus twenty five caliber. One of my
(09:12):
favorite loads for deer, an old handload of mine. I'm
not gonna give you exact data, but an eighty five
grain Sierra game king over varget in a two forty
three is just a deer dropper of around. It performs
swimmingly in deer size game. Now, the bullet technology may
(09:34):
not have been there in nineteen hundred and fifteen, but
as soon as they got you know, soft point decent
hunting bullets, especially by the time the corlock rolled around,
there's no reason this is not a fantastic deer cartridge. Also,
the eighty seven grain at three thousand, it's not a
two forty three in power, but it's I would not
hesitate to use it on deer size game. Let's look
(09:56):
at some of the other loadings listed on the wiki.
Seventy five I have grain at thirty one seventy a
ninety grain at twenty nine nine seven, a one hundred
grain at twenty eight sixty four and one hundred and
seventeen grain at twenty six fifty four, and that certainly
would be a decent it's a larger, larger deer size game. Now,
(10:17):
the other the more popular today twenty five is the
twenty five out six, both based on the thirty all six.
But this one's a little bit smaller, a little bit
neck down. It's it's not equal to a twenty five
out six, but it's again certainly powerful enough in my
opinion for deer and deer size game twentieth century. Like
(10:38):
the firearms officionados that wanted this kind of for the
time very high performing hot rod cartridge, I would assume
this has taken a ton of deer, literally over a
ton and figuratively. To give credit also, Charles Newton designed
the two fifty three thousand Savage. Next, we're gonna go
(11:01):
to the three or three Savage. I believe this is
the oldest of the cartridges we're gonna talk about today
by Savage. Now, when you hear three or three today,
you might think three or three brit too. It was
a pretty popular cartridge back then. So it got its
name via that, but it really has nothing to do
with the three or three British cartridge. And I know
(11:21):
almost nothing about this cartridge, so we're gonna go to
the Wikipedia pretty early. The three or three Savage is
a rimmed thirty caliber rifle cartridge developed by Savage Arms
Company in eighteen ninety four. Eighteen ninety four, did I
say ahead of its time? On some other cartridges, this
(11:41):
one ahead of its time? Why? Because if you're familiar,
Winchester has an eighteen ninety four, very very very famous cartridge,
are very very famous rather rifle slash carbing the eighteen
ninety four iconic Western And you think like Western, you're
probably thinking of a ninety four. You're probably not thinking
of a Savage ninety nine. I guess it doesn't look
(12:03):
as cool. Savage ninety nine is are kind of futuristic
even for today, right, and they're well over one hundred
years old, kind of got this steampunk, kind of sleek
but classic aesthetic. I couldn't picture you probably don't picture
John Wayne Rock and one in McClintock whatever. I don't
know what you're so that took place, but you get
the idea doesn't look like your traditional lever action because
(12:25):
it wasn't. Again, it was ahead of its time. This
came out eighteen ninety four of this cartridge, and pretty
soon after chambered in. The Model eighteen ninety nine was
not like many of the other pretty much all the
other that I'm aware of lever action cartridges where it
was kind of black powder and designed for round bullets,
(12:47):
even if they later were loaded with smokeless powder, they
had to use a round bullet because or a round
nose bullet because they were loaded in a tubular magazine. Again,
the Savage ninety nine does not suffer that handicap. That
was me interjecting. Let's get back to what this says.
Eighteen ninety four, which designed for a short which was
(13:07):
designed as a short as short as the thirty thirty
Winchester action cartridge for the Savage model eighteen ninety five
and later the eighteen ninety nine handless lover action rifle.
The cartridge was designed for smokeless powder and at a
time when black powder cartridges were still popular. The three
h three Savage round was ballistically superior to the thirty thirty,
(13:29):
but only marginally. This says that The cartridge remained popular
through the nineteen thirties. Says various loads. One hundred and
ninety grand load was used on such animals as deer
and moose. Now, let us look here at this what
they have here and the three h three I do
(13:50):
believe has a point. To clarify, the three or three
British has a three point one to two I believe
diameter bullet. This is name the three or three. It
is not. It has a regular American point three toh
eight diameter bullet, just to clarify that. But it lists
(14:13):
a one hundred and seventy grain at sixteen forty nine
foot pounds. I would classify this as an intermediate cartridge again,
as I mentioned in the article, very similar to a
thirty thirty. Thirty thirty is h I would consider a
decent intermediate cartridge, maybe America's first intermediate cartridge. This one
was right behind it. A decent intermediate cartridge with the
(14:35):
benefit of spitzer bullets. It's not a full powered rifle cartridge.
If you look at that, you're looking at two thousand
feet a second. It's quite a bit slower than what
I would consider full powered rifle rounds like a three
oh eight thirty o six, but certainly, let's say inside
two two hundred and fifty yards with depending on how
(14:59):
decent bullets were then and what it was loaded with,
a decent deer, and even quite a bit larger than
deer at two two hundred and fifty yards. It's a
good cartridge, but not good enough for it the last
long In fact, Savage itself replaced the cartridge pretty soon
with the last cartridge. We're going to talk about the
three hundred Savage. Now. From what I know about the
(15:22):
three hundred Savage, it is basically a three to eight,
a little bit less than here or there, a little
bit less modern, but it's much older. But basically, if
you think of the class now, it's not exact. It's
a little bit less powerful, but you're splitting hairs. Anything
the three o eight can do, the three hundred Savage
can do and was doing it earlier. Doesn't mean it's
(15:44):
just as good a cartridge. That doesn't mean you should
get a machine gun chambered in it instead of the
three toh eight, right, doesn't mean that at all. But
you think about whatever you're hunting, if you've done it
with a three toh eight. You could hunt it with
a three hundred savage in a similar load. The three
hundred savage this is from the wiki, is a rimless,
so we moved from rim to rimless. You'll notice a
(16:06):
lot of the early metallic cartridges were rimmed to help
with extraction, just the metallurgy the brass cases. But once
they pretty much got that worked out, you see a
lot of move towards rimless cartridges. This scartridge is no
different a rimless meaning the rim doesn't stick out any
farther than the case body. Thirty caliber rifle carturee developed
(16:30):
by Savage Arms Company in it in nineteen twenty. Now
think about this, This is a kind of a shorter
I'll get to the power later, but I would call
it a full powered again, comparing it to the full powered,
shorter kind of short action thirty caliber round full powered,
full powered rifle cartridge in nineteen twenty. The military slash
(16:52):
Winchester did not do this with the three O eight
until the nineteen fifties, mid nine, early to mid nineteen fifties,
so twenty a lot happened between nineteen twenty and nineteen fifty.
I don't think I have to tell you that. But uh,
pretty crazy how much older this cartridge is as at
least as far as firearms development history goes to replace
(17:14):
the three or three Savage popular Savage Model ninety nine
handlet's lover action rifle, which was started to produce again,
which they started to produce again as the Model ninety nine,
as well as the Savage Model nineteen twenty bolt action rifle.
So we see Savage here. They're kind of known today
for their bolt action rifle. I don't know if this
(17:35):
was their first one, but here their Savage Model nineteen
twenty bolt action rifle. Despite having a shortcase in order
to fit the original model ninety nine magazine any rather
stumpy neck, the cartridge is capable of producing one hundred
and fifty grain bullets it over twenty six thousand feet
per second. Now, if we think about I generally remember
(17:59):
three as one hundred and fifty grand at twenty one
hundred feet a second. Now that varies based on you know,
weather conditions, altitude, barrel length, even tiny things like different
kind of rifling. But in general, general numbers three O
eight one hundred and fifty twenty eight hundred, just one
hundred and fifty at twenty six hundred. That's pretty close, right,
(18:21):
That's that's that's pretty close for nineteen twenty, and probably
could do better today if your gun can handle it
with better powders. Because just like the original thirty all
six or modern thirty oh six is quite a bit faster,
I imagine this with modern powder should be quite a
bit faster even keeping it in safe pressures. So again,
(18:41):
it's a full powered rifle cartridge. And if you if
you really know like three oweight, if you've held enough
three weight in your hand, if you held this in
your hand, you'd be like, yeah, it's not a three
o eight, but it looks pretty close, and again far
predates it. And this lists a here one hundred and
fifty grain at twenty six thirty, I mean think Corlock
(19:04):
and at lists a one hundred and fifty grain Hornety
Superformance at twenty seven forty. So again modern, more modern loading,
like we talked about, this lists one hundred and eighty
grain Federal Soft Point Factory at twenty three fifty. Just
has a couple of handloads, but it's a full powered
rifle round. And it's a full powered rifle round that
(19:25):
again is it as powerful as a three oh eight. No,
but anything that I would hunt with a three awa,
I wouldn't be like, well, I do with a three away.
But the three hundred Savage, it's a peace shooter. It's
it's in the ballpark. It's probably even the same league,
the same game, same double, a triple, a kind of status, right,
It's it's close. Now. I mentioned that these rounds were
(19:48):
ahead of their time. We're not in that time. I
think they're quite a bit dated today. Now, there's only
a few reasons I could think of using these today.
The big one is tradition, especially family tradition. Right, if
you have one of these rifles, like a Savage ninety nine,
passed down from generation to generation, still in good shape,
(20:11):
is still shootable. It's the Savage ninety nine modern by
today's standards. No, but it's still a good rifle. You
can still hunt deer with it. You can still hunt
the appropriate game for the appropriate cartridge with it. The
family tradition, right, if this was a hand me down
gun and you're you should be proud of that and
you should use it. The other one is you're a
collector and you just want something different, right again, I said,
(20:34):
these had their kind of their own aesthetic, steampunk, antique,
modern of whatever. I don't know what it would be
called if it was, you know, an aesthetic, but it's very,
very unique. So you just want a lever action or
you want something different from the early to mid twentieth century.
They're good rifles. Does it make practical sense when you
(20:56):
could go out and get a new Savage, a Savage
Access for four one hundred dollars and a three to
zero eight and a thirty out six and a six
five Creed more. No, But that doesn't make them a
bad rifle. So those are two reasons. One is you
just see a really sweet deal on one at a
(21:16):
at a flea market, not a flea market. I probably
als sall guns in flea markets, but out like in
a state sale or a garage sale or a local
gun store that just you know, these things aren't highly
coveted like a pre sixty four Winchester generally are. Now.
They might be if it's some kind of collector thing
in an uber rare caliber. They came in a ton
of calibers, not just the ones we talked about today,
but in general, these aren't crazy coveted guns. They're not
(21:39):
like a pre sixty four Winchester Model seventy in general,
but there are good guns. So if you get a
good deal on one, might Let's be really, you're hunting
white tailed deer out of a deer stand on the
East coast inside of two hundred yards. It's not really
so much about the rifle in that case, as much
as we might want to pretend that it is. I
grew up hunting that way. It's more about just being
(22:01):
in the stand at the right time. Right you're sitting
in the stand and you're paying attention. That's probably the
way bigger factor there. You want to do a retro hunt,
get your ll Bean boots, get you a red and
black plaid shirt and a Jones hat or a Trapper hat. Hey,
some people love the hunting as much for the tradition
as they do for the meat. Nothing wrong with that.
(22:23):
These are good cartridges. They're cool cartridges, and they I
thought were worth doing an episode on the Savage Cartridges.
I want to misrepresent them, pretend they's something that they're not.
They were very much ahead of their time. They're dated today,
they're inefficient today, They're not ineffective today. Just like a
lot of people hunt with a thirty thirty, a lot
(22:43):
of people humpt without forty five to seventy's. Just because
they're dated and inefficient doesn't make them ineffective. So I
thought I would just kind of do an episode on
the Savage Cartridges. I think this is all of them.
I could be wrong, although I was aware of or
could find in brief research. I appreciate you, guys. I
(23:04):
appreciate all that you do. Thank you for listening, and
have a blessed day.
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