June 14, 2024 • 28 mins
What better way to get ready for the NBA Finals than former Boston Celtics NBA champion Joe Kleine joins me to talk about this Celtics team closing in on a NBA championship, how he figured out to last in the NBA for a long time and why he calls Michael Jordan the GOAT and what was his thoughts playing with MJ in the last Olympics that featured college basketball players
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, once again another episode of Heavy in
the Page, Gerald Brown, SeriousSex and m NBA Radio. You always
can see me with my partner misterbat boy himself, Rick Horn. But
my guest tonight is a gentleman,outstanding gentleman again one of those throwback players
NBA Champion Boston Celtic and Arkansas razorbackmister Joe Klein. Joe, first and
(00:36):
foremost, thank you so much forjoining me. I want to get your
thoughts and opinion on this Celtics teamand what they have been able to do
thus far in these NBA playoffs,and how do you compare this current Celtics
team and their dominance to that Celticsteam that you played on. Well,
first of all, I think,I mean, man, if you can
(01:00):
the playoffs. Somebody was telling methe other day for the year, they're
like seventy eight and twenty or somethinglike that. If these if they win
these next two games, they willhave won eighty out of one hundred games
total this year. So they're aphenomenal team with a phenomenal coach. I
mean, you can't take that awayfrom him. I think they have depth.
(01:22):
I think the additions of Holiday andPorzingis this year. Really they they
saw needs that they lacked from theprevious two years, and I think they
hit home runs in their additions thisyear with Drew Holliday and Porzingis and Porzingi's
not being able to go tonight isa blow, but I mean they've been
(01:47):
doing it all year without him,so, you know, especially in the
playoffs. So I just think Holidayis a special player. He gives them
that third guy that he's a roleplayer, but he's not a role player.
He's a roles player. I meanhe's kind of like, what do
you need? Do you need mescore, I'll score. You need defense,
(02:08):
I'll give you that. I mean, so he does so many things
for them, and I think he'sbeen great. I think he's very similar
to the Celtic good teams of thepast. You know, they have you
know, good stars, solid pointguard, and then they have really good
role players in a deep bench andthey play together. I mean, they
(02:30):
they don't have an agenda personally whenthey play. They they're like all great
teams like the Pistons were in theeighties and in the early nineties, the
Lakers. They just get it done. They find different ways to get it
done. And I think it's stillgonna be a really good game tonight.
I think Dallas is gonna come outswinging and they're gonna really come after him,
(02:54):
and it's gonna be interesting to see. Yeah. Now, you know,
I had Dennis Hopson on the showand I was talking to hop and
really just again the adjustment that ittakes in regards to going from an organization
that doesn't have an established culture ofwinning and being able to all of a
(03:15):
sudden now shift to a established culturean environment. And you had that situation
going from Sacramento being drafted to nowyour smack dad into Boston. Talk about
that process of going from it's almostlike night and day, I can imagine,
but talk about the adjustment process.What process it was for you?
(03:38):
Well, it was refreshing, Gerald, to be quite honest with you.
I remember my good friend who Iplayed with in Sacramento, Eddie Johnson.
I remember he's he when he heardI got traded. I remember him calling
me or I saw him somewhere andI remember him saying, welcome to the
NBA. They got traded to Boston. Because you know, I mean when
(03:59):
I unfortunately when I was in Sacramento, a great town, great dysfunctional organization
at that time, and coming fromthat where it was kind of every man
for himself, you're trying to surviveand do something for your career, to
(04:20):
walking into a locker room where it'slike they welcome you because they know you
can help, and they're interested aboutone thing and one thing only they and
they want to win and they wantto win it all and that's the agenda.
That's the only agenda. And ifyou can help, great, If
you can't, get out of theway. And I just found that very
(04:42):
very refreshing. Yeah, how wasit playing with Larry Bird among others?
And what type of story could yougive us about Larry Well, I mean
he's the best. I mean trashtalk. I mean everybody talks about his
trash talking during the game, butuh, his trash talking away from the
(05:04):
from the game to us and onthe bus and in the locker room and
in the card games and uh,you know, on and on and on.
I mean it was times a thousandof what you guys saw, and
it was always it was always good. I mean he was he could give,
(05:24):
but he could take. He wasvery approachable, very good with the
teammates, and just fun to bearound. But you know, he had
a side to him when it wastime to get to work. Man,
it was time to get to work. And and he he was all about
having fun, having a good time. But business was business, and you
(05:49):
know that was that was great tobe around because he kept you loose,
but he kept you on edge atthe same time. And uh, and
he was working. He was alwaysworking. You couldn't get in there before
him. And uh, he wasalways working on his craft, even as
great a player as he was.And he just he set a tone and
(06:09):
that was as all great players doon great teams. Hey, you have
a one, two or three guysthat are going to set a tone and
everybody else is going to get inline and follow. And that's that's what
Larry did. Yeah, you know, I've often heard and I think I
was a ball boy for the Iwas always I was bad boy for the
Knicks, but I also went upto school and I was ball boy for
(06:30):
the Celtics around that time. Ithink you were there. And one of
the things I've always wanted to askyou in terms of when you hear players
say, you know that. Youknow, if I was telling him I
was gonna have you on the show, he knew his role, He understood
what to do, consummate professional.You know, what does it take for
(06:51):
a player to be in a situationwho to know themselves and be a professional,
to know your role and excel atthat and not let the ego get
in a way? How did yoube able to How were you able to
handle that and master that? Well, we all want to be superstars,
we all want to be all stars. We all uh, we all have
(07:15):
that ego. As you you hitit right on the head right there.
I mean, you have an egocoming in the league and you want to
be the next this or the nextthat, and you want all this and
all that. But there comes apoint where you got to accept who you
are. You know, I wantedto be a twenty five point game scorer,
uh, going up against Patrick,Elijah Long, Shaq, Bob Lanier.
(07:39):
That wasn't gonna happen. So yeah, I kind of had to kind
of had to say, you know, all right, you know, how
how do I stick? You know, how can I how can I How
can I make this team? Howcan I get into the lineup? How
can I you know, I wantto play. You know, I don't
(08:01):
want to just be a guy sittingon the bench all the time. I
want to play. So how canI find a role or a way to
get into the mix so that Ican be a part of this and so
that you know, again, yougot to swallow your pride a little bit.
Uh, but you got to dowhat you can do. You can't
be who you're not. And uhagain, I wanted to be the next
(08:26):
you know, Larry Bird didn't.I didn't, wasn't built, didn't have
it, man, you know,and I think you got to accept that.
That doesn't mean you're a terrible player. It just means, you know,
you're still in the NBA, whichis pretty dang good. Yeah,
And you got to look at itthat way. You got to find the
(08:46):
positives with that. And I thinkso many guys what happens is you start
if you let that consume you thatyou're you're not getting to be this and
this and what you dreamed of,You start to pout, You start to
get a bad attitude, which isgonna keep you from working and staying ready.
(09:07):
And then when the coach calls you, you're not gonna be ready,
You're not gonna play good, andit's just gonna spiral from down down,
the spiral from there. And soagain you got to you gotta stay sharp
and stay ready and play with anattitude. And then you know, every
now and then you'd raise up andhave a good, you know, game
ten fifteen, sixteen points, getdouble digit rebounds, and it was very
(09:31):
gratifying, you know, and beingon a good team and being able every
now and then to do something likethat was a lot better than getting eighteen
points a game on a team thatwon nineteen games. I mean, so
you know, I mean that's theway I looked at it. Well,
you figured it out, because atthe end of the day, I think
(09:52):
the key word you said was beingable to survive and stick actually the word
in terms of being able to last. And you did that for a quiet
year. What you got. Whatyou gotta do, man, You gotta
look around, you know, yougotta you gotta look around and go.
You know, this ain't a badgig, man, not at all.
(10:16):
You don't want I want to stickaround. Hey listen, hey, hey,
you figured it out. And theinteresting thing is, in fact,
DJ Armstrong and I was just talkingabout that is some guys don't understand and
know how to figure it out untilit's after the point and after the fact.
(10:37):
Now, you you were part ofobviously history in terms of the Olympic
team, the last Olympic team tofeature college players to win in the Olympics.
How much of that experience helped youwith a lot of those great players
on that team to be able totransition into the NBA, but also developed
(10:58):
that camaraderie in terms of those guysand from a social emotional standpoint in your
transition from college to the pros,Joe, it was so different back then.
You didn't have the exposure you donow. I mean, you know,
you might play on national TV threeor four times a year if you're
if you're lucky, you didn't havethe uh what they have now where every
(11:22):
game it's on national TV. Anduh, just the guys that you would
hear about, you didn't really seethem like and you didn't play with them
in the summer. There wasn't allthat what there that there is now And
so coming to the Olympic team andplaying with these guys, uh, and
(11:43):
then the draft was happening while wewere in Indianapolis, and I remember and
again, I don't even think wewatched it on TV. I don't even
know that it was. I mean, I can't. I don't know that
it was on TV. I can't. I think it might have been.
It really was an it in stages. I remember it was on TV.
But I mean, you know they'redrafting you know, uh, Elijah On
(12:07):
whom I played against at Arkansas,and then Sam Bowie who was at the
Olympic Trials, and then it wasMichael Jordan, and then and so on,
and then you knew Patrick Ewing andthen that was Sam Perkins and and
all these guys we were playing againstevery day, you know, And and
so I think that's kind of Ithink it gave you confidence to where,
(12:28):
hey, uh, you know,I can be drafted too, and I
can, I can, you know, play at the next level. And
then and then playing against these guys, and you know, having moderate success
against them kind of gave you confidencegoing into your senior year in college that
(12:48):
you know, you you were youwere a very good player, one of
the better players in the country.And and I know that it helped me
go and have a really good senioryear because you know, I practiced against
the best of the best for threemonths in the summer and there's no way
that could do anything. But youknow, help me, Yeah, I
(13:09):
mean it really was amazing and stuffback then, Joe, were you able
to tell Michael Jordan's greatness? Likewhat was that experience of seeing him in
those Olympic trials and being a partof the Olympic team. Well you knew,
I mean, jerd anybody who saysthat he was going to become what
(13:30):
he became and they knew that.I I'm like, I don't think anybody,
but we all knew that he wasgoing to be an NBA All Star,
he was going to be a hewas going to be a top player
in the NBA. Now him becomingthe goat, I mean, I don't
know that anybody foresaw that now andso but again, you knew he was
(13:56):
he was different, man, Hewas just he was different. He was
wired, very competitive, you know, talent beyond you know what you could
believe. But I think what madehim different. And Alvin Robertson, a
teammate of Miles was on the team, was kind of wired like Mike.
I mean, he just they justand watching him to go add it every
(14:18):
day in practice was just amazing.And I had great respect for Alvian Robertson
because I saw it every day withAlvin Robinson. So I thought, I
thought going I didn't think there wasanybody like Alvin Robertson, you know,
going into the Olympics, I waslike, there's no dude wired like this.
Dude, Well, yes there is, you know, yeah there is.
(14:39):
And it was Michael Jordan. Andthen on top of that, you
know, no disrespect to Alvin,but the basketball talent that Michael had with
the drive, you know, wasyou know, we you know, we
saw what we ended up seeing whatthat turned into, I mean, just
(15:00):
the goat. Yeah, how muchof a difference was it? Because you
I think you faced him in theNBA Finals in the ninety nine with the
Sons. No, that was ninetythree, was the Sons, and I
was. I was that. Iwas was Boston my next year, yeah,
three ninety two, ninety three theyplayed the Sons. I got to
the Sons in ninety three, ninetyfour. Okay, So when you saw
(15:22):
him in Boston and at that havingthe years on him and won a championship,
how much of a difference was mjfrom what you witnessed in the Olympic
trials and playing with them on theOlympic team. None, I mean he
he he brought it man every night. I mean he you could count there.
You know, as we always say, there's not a lot of things
(15:43):
in this world that you can counton. You could count on Michael Jordan
bringing it. And he brought itevery day in practice too. I mean
he was just driven. Larry Birdwas like that, but he he had
injury issues. But those two gotor two of the most driven human beings
that I've ever been around. Imean they wanted to play and go at
(16:06):
it and go at you every day, and you know they they did it
in games and they did it inpractice, and it was I mean,
it's just it's amazing. I meanit was utterly amazing to the effort because
I mean I was a guy that, like we talked about, I had
(16:26):
to stay ready and I would runand do extra work and things like that.
And I mean I can't tell youthe number of times that I'd get
to the gym early and you know, Larry would already be there, Michael
would be there. I mean,and they played forty minutes the night before.
They had played all night, everynight, and so you know,
(16:48):
I might have played five, Imight not have played at all, you
know, and I was coming inearly, and you know, I couldn't
beat them to the gym, andthey were and that's why they were such
great leaders, great uh, youknow, great players. I mean they
just they were relentless. When youlook at today's game, uh, Joe,
when you look at today's game andlook at what you were asked to
(17:12):
do back then, uh, todayyou're you're probably a guy that's stepping out,
shooting freeze and doing more. Whatare your thoughts on today's game specifically
and how the big man's role hasbeen sort of shifted more so? Well,
I mean it's when we played,it was an inside out game.
(17:33):
Now it's an outside end game.And so the train you know, my
training, if I was coming outnow, would be totally different. I
mean I would be I would belearning how to handle the ball. I
would be learning how to shoot threes. Those things would be more paramount.
I would be in the pick androll. Uh. In high school,
(17:53):
you know, I didn't do anypick and roll till I got to the
NBA when I was in college,and uh, I would be doing it
in AAU and probably in junior highnow and learning how to pick and pop
and put it on the floor.Somebody closed out on me and so I
would have trained and learned how toplay a totally different game. But I
(18:17):
do not like the fact that asize size and basketball is an advantage,
okay, and what regardless inside outoutside in size is an advantage. And
I cannot stand guys, especially nowin the pick and roll when they switch
(18:40):
and they switch, and I meanthey'll switch. They'll switch a two guard
onto a seven footer and they don'ttake him down and throw the ball in
there and just punish those guys,you know for that, you know,
or a big guy pick and popand have a guard on him. I
mean that drives me nuts. Somebodyasked me the other day if I thought
(19:03):
the big guy from Burdu would beany good eatie, and I was like,
yeah, if they use him.You know, they had him standing
out there at the three point line. You know, let let let guys
switch on him and then never throwthem the ball. That's why I love
the joker. I mean, hehe'll pick and pop, he'll shoot the
three. But he's learned how todrive the ball use his size, and
(19:27):
that's why I think he's so effective. He's and that's why I like watching
him play. He's got a littleold old school game to him. And
so I mean that that bothers mein that I don't mind bigs being able
to shoot. But if you're sevenfoot and all you're gonna do is spot
up and shoot threes, you mightas well be six foot two, you
(19:48):
know, I mean, it's there'sno difference. Yeah, a couple more
questions for I'll let you get onIdia Joe, And that's a great insight.
I mean, there's perhaps a guyin Minnesota that a lot of people
will clamoring. If it's not one, maybe two of them, you could
really really make that case for whenyou talk about the evolution of the big
that now plays outside in do youever think that we would have a situation
(20:11):
where we would get back to thebig man playing with perhaps maybe not as
back to the basket, but moreor less on that block tacking the basket.
Do you think that we would getback to that or is it basically
here to stay seven foot fours likewen Byamba is stepping out shooting threes and
living out on the perimeter. Idon't think it'll ever go all the way
(20:37):
back. The three point line analyticallyis too much of a I mean,
it's here, and it's proven tomake a huge difference in games, and
it can be a very big equalizerif you have supreme size against a smaller
team. The three point line hasnegated all that size advanced. So but
(21:00):
again, I think teams who useit wisely, use their bigs wisely,
can really really create advantages, notonly at the free throw line get teams
in foul trouble. It will alsohelp like you you brought up Towns,
I mean, when he's struggling,you know, and they're switching and everything.
(21:23):
Man, go down there and geta guard on you and get an
easy one. Go down there andget filed. So I mean, once
you see that ball go through thehoop a couple of times, that three
point shots gonna be a little biteasier because you're not gonna be pressing.
But it seems like sometimes it's like, well, I've missed five in a
row. You know I'm gonna keepshooting till I make it. Well,
(21:44):
some I mean they give you anextra point for a reason. I mean,
it's a harder shot, you know. I mean, they give you
an extra point. So try togo down there, especially if they're switching,
and take advantage, get something easy, get yourself back into the game
instead of just hammering the three.Again. I think Jokic just does a
(22:07):
great job. And then I thinkthey do a great job with a big
guy to high post on the switch, even if he stays at the high
posts. If you start cutting guysand moving guys, you know, the
bigs conceit. You know, theirline of sight is going to be so
much easier, and their ability topass the ball from up there is going
(22:29):
to be so much better because oftheir size advantage. So you know,
I don't think it's going to goback to throwing it down there and punishing
people, But I mean I hopethat it gets to where some of these
hybrid bigs will be hybrids and godown every now and then and use use
(22:52):
what God gave them, you know, their size. Yeah, that is
And last question, Joe before Ilet you get on that out of here
lost a legend. We all losta great, great, talented, really
really smart individual. And he comesto basketball the logo himself, mister Jerry
West. Your thoughts on Jerry Westin the life of this NBA player icon
(23:18):
Well, yeah, I mean everybodyknew who he was. He was an
iconic figure, just a and thenyou know, not just as a player,
he also did as an executive andan ambassador. I think he was
just a great overall, you know, help to the NBA. I think
(23:42):
he was a type of guy.I know for a fact that a lot
of things that happened behind the scenesthat nobody knows about, uh, he
was involved in. And I justthink his knowledge him being with the Lakers,
a big market team, and beingable to get Magic Johnson and having
(24:02):
the foresight to get Kobe and bringShack and I mean and get the showtime
Lakers with Kareem and then bringing itback with Kobe and them. I mean
that that was worth billions of dollarsto the NBA. I mean billions,
because having a team like that inLA, you can't write a better script
(24:25):
than then. Yeah, and obviouslyI said the last question of sneak this
one in here. When you lookback on your career, what is your
biggest takeaway? Man? Just fortunatelucky you were talented. Don't don't know,
don't no. I mean, butI mean again, it kind of
(24:47):
goes back to what we talked aboutright off the bat. I mean,
we all wanted to be NBA AllStars, we all wanted to be the
face of our team and things likethat. But that that can't happen.
That happens to a very few,uh and they are gifted and better than
all of us. But just tobe able to stick for fifteen years and
(25:11):
then to get to play with theCats I got to play with, man,
it's I mean, you know,I sit back and think about it.
You know, I played with JasonKidd, I played with you know,
I played with Shaq, I playedwith I played with Kobe, I
played with MJ. I played withPippen, I played with Charles Barkley,
(25:32):
Kenny Smith. You know, justI can't, you know, I can't.
I can't think of all of them. But I mean, it's just
a debt with Shrimp, Sabonus,Rashid Wallace, I mean, just all
these great guys that I got toplay with and be friends with and be
in a locker room with. Youknow, you just feel very fortunate to
(25:55):
be a part of that fraternity.And you know that's the thing you miss
the most. Man. You missedthe games and the excitement and everything,
but the practices and the locker roomand the bus rides and the plane rides
and the card games and the givingeach other hell in the locker room about
everything, and being in the tunnelin a playoff game on the road and
(26:15):
getting ready to run out, orin Philadelphia when you're with the Celtics and
everybody's wanting your you know, throwingstuff at you and stuff and just I
mean, just those are those arethings you can't you can't. You know,
those things happen and then when they'regone, you can't replicate those things.
And just fortunate to be able tobe a part of that. Yeah.
(26:40):
Well, you know, Joe,I really really want to say,
first and foremost followed your career definitelyseeing you play in the Olympics and obviously
seeing you play in the NBA,and I always can say, just like
a lot of good people, firstclass individual and I applaud you for all
that you have done. And youdefinitely presented picks will pick suey that rolls
(27:07):
off your tongue, so natural man, you could get you might be you
might be a long lost star Kansa. And didn't you No, no,
no, no no. Hey listen, I'm from New York. But you
know what, my good friend andgood family member Penny Hard ways over at
Memphis. So I know Memphis andArkansas. You know those rivalries back in
the days. Uh, it wasa big big thing and stuff, and
(27:30):
so definitely I know the history ofArkansas and such great, great basketball players
to come from that program. Butyou know, so yeah, I won't
let Penny knowl that that that cameoff your lips. Man, Joe Listen,
really really appreciate you taking out themost few moments out of your time.
(27:52):
All the best and definitely look forwardto getting you back on Serious XM
NBA Radio with Rick and I thankyou, Jerald, Tell Rick, Tell
Rick. Next time I see him, I'm gonna punch him in the face.
Hey listen, Hey, I'll giveyou a hundred dollars if you do
it for me. I want topunch him in his stuff and his bully
button. All right, man,thanks a lot. Always
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, once again another episode of Heavy in
the Page, Gerald Brown, SeriousSex and m NBA Radio. You always
can see me with my partner misterbat boy himself, Rick Horn. But
my guest tonight is a gentleman,outstanding gentleman again one of those throwback players
NBA Champion Boston Celtic and Arkansas razorbackmister Joe Klein. Joe, first and
(00:36):
foremost, thank you so much forjoining me. I want to get your
thoughts and opinion on this Celtics teamand what they have been able to do
thus far in these NBA playoffs,and how do you compare this current Celtics
team and their dominance to that Celticsteam that you played on. Well,
first of all, I think,I mean, man, if you can
(01:00):
the playoffs. Somebody was telling methe other day for the year, they're
like seventy eight and twenty or somethinglike that. If these if they win
these next two games, they willhave won eighty out of one hundred games
total this year. So they're aphenomenal team with a phenomenal coach. I
mean, you can't take that awayfrom him. I think they have depth.
(01:22):
I think the additions of Holiday andPorzingis this year. Really they they
saw needs that they lacked from theprevious two years, and I think they
hit home runs in their additions thisyear with Drew Holliday and Porzingis and Porzingi's
not being able to go tonight isa blow, but I mean they've been
(01:47):
doing it all year without him,so, you know, especially in the
playoffs. So I just think Holidayis a special player. He gives them
that third guy that he's a roleplayer, but he's not a role player.
He's a roles player. I meanhe's kind of like, what do
you need? Do you need mescore, I'll score. You need defense,
(02:08):
I'll give you that. I mean, so he does so many things
for them, and I think he'sbeen great. I think he's very similar
to the Celtic good teams of thepast. You know, they have you
know, good stars, solid pointguard, and then they have really good
role players in a deep bench andthey play together. I mean, they
(02:30):
they don't have an agenda personally whenthey play. They they're like all great
teams like the Pistons were in theeighties and in the early nineties, the
Lakers. They just get it done. They find different ways to get it
done. And I think it's stillgonna be a really good game tonight.
I think Dallas is gonna come outswinging and they're gonna really come after him,
(02:54):
and it's gonna be interesting to see. Yeah. Now, you know,
I had Dennis Hopson on the showand I was talking to hop and
really just again the adjustment that ittakes in regards to going from an organization
that doesn't have an established culture ofwinning and being able to all of a
(03:15):
sudden now shift to a established culturean environment. And you had that situation
going from Sacramento being drafted to nowyour smack dad into Boston. Talk about
that process of going from it's almostlike night and day, I can imagine,
but talk about the adjustment process.What process it was for you?
(03:38):
Well, it was refreshing, Gerald, to be quite honest with you.
I remember my good friend who Iplayed with in Sacramento, Eddie Johnson.
I remember he's he when he heardI got traded. I remember him calling
me or I saw him somewhere andI remember him saying, welcome to the
NBA. They got traded to Boston. Because you know, I mean when
(03:59):
I unfortunately when I was in Sacramento, a great town, great dysfunctional organization
at that time, and coming fromthat where it was kind of every man
for himself, you're trying to surviveand do something for your career, to
(04:20):
walking into a locker room where it'slike they welcome you because they know you
can help, and they're interested aboutone thing and one thing only they and
they want to win and they wantto win it all and that's the agenda.
That's the only agenda. And ifyou can help, great, If
you can't, get out of theway. And I just found that very
(04:42):
very refreshing. Yeah, how wasit playing with Larry Bird among others?
And what type of story could yougive us about Larry Well, I mean
he's the best. I mean trashtalk. I mean everybody talks about his
trash talking during the game, butuh, his trash talking away from the
(05:04):
from the game to us and onthe bus and in the locker room and
in the card games and uh,you know, on and on and on.
I mean it was times a thousandof what you guys saw, and
it was always it was always good. I mean he was he could give,
(05:24):
but he could take. He wasvery approachable, very good with the
teammates, and just fun to bearound. But you know, he had
a side to him when it wastime to get to work. Man,
it was time to get to work. And and he he was all about
having fun, having a good time. But business was business, and you
(05:49):
know that was that was great tobe around because he kept you loose,
but he kept you on edge atthe same time. And uh, and
he was working. He was alwaysworking. You couldn't get in there before
him. And uh, he wasalways working on his craft, even as
great a player as he was.And he just he set a tone and
(06:09):
that was as all great players doon great teams. Hey, you have
a one, two or three guysthat are going to set a tone and
everybody else is going to get inline and follow. And that's that's what
Larry did. Yeah, you know, I've often heard and I think I
was a ball boy for the Iwas always I was bad boy for the
Knicks, but I also went upto school and I was ball boy for
(06:30):
the Celtics around that time. Ithink you were there. And one of
the things I've always wanted to askyou in terms of when you hear players
say, you know that. Youknow, if I was telling him I
was gonna have you on the show, he knew his role, He understood
what to do, consummate professional.You know, what does it take for
(06:51):
a player to be in a situationwho to know themselves and be a professional,
to know your role and excel atthat and not let the ego get
in a way? How did yoube able to How were you able to
handle that and master that? Well, we all want to be superstars,
we all want to be all stars. We all uh, we all have
(07:15):
that ego. As you you hitit right on the head right there.
I mean, you have an egocoming in the league and you want to
be the next this or the nextthat, and you want all this and
all that. But there comes apoint where you got to accept who you
are. You know, I wantedto be a twenty five point game scorer,
uh, going up against Patrick,Elijah Long, Shaq, Bob Lanier.
(07:39):
That wasn't gonna happen. So yeah, I kind of had to kind
of had to say, you know, all right, you know, how
how do I stick? You know, how can I how can I How
can I make this team? Howcan I get into the lineup? How
can I you know, I wantto play. You know, I don't
(08:01):
want to just be a guy sittingon the bench all the time. I
want to play. So how canI find a role or a way to
get into the mix so that Ican be a part of this and so
that you know, again, yougot to swallow your pride a little bit.
Uh, but you got to dowhat you can do. You can't
be who you're not. And uhagain, I wanted to be the next
(08:26):
you know, Larry Bird didn't.I didn't, wasn't built, didn't have
it, man, you know,and I think you got to accept that.
That doesn't mean you're a terrible player. It just means, you know,
you're still in the NBA, whichis pretty dang good. Yeah,
And you got to look at itthat way. You got to find the
(08:46):
positives with that. And I thinkso many guys what happens is you start
if you let that consume you thatyou're you're not getting to be this and
this and what you dreamed of,You start to pout, You start to
get a bad attitude, which isgonna keep you from working and staying ready.
(09:07):
And then when the coach calls you, you're not gonna be ready,
You're not gonna play good, andit's just gonna spiral from down down,
the spiral from there. And soagain you got to you gotta stay sharp
and stay ready and play with anattitude. And then you know, every
now and then you'd raise up andhave a good, you know, game
ten fifteen, sixteen points, getdouble digit rebounds, and it was very
(09:31):
gratifying, you know, and beingon a good team and being able every
now and then to do something likethat was a lot better than getting eighteen
points a game on a team thatwon nineteen games. I mean, so
you know, I mean that's theway I looked at it. Well,
you figured it out, because atthe end of the day, I think
(09:52):
the key word you said was beingable to survive and stick actually the word
in terms of being able to last. And you did that for a quiet
year. What you got. Whatyou gotta do, man, You gotta
look around, you know, yougotta you gotta look around and go.
You know, this ain't a badgig, man, not at all.
(10:16):
You don't want I want to stickaround. Hey listen, hey, hey,
you figured it out. And theinteresting thing is, in fact,
DJ Armstrong and I was just talkingabout that is some guys don't understand and
know how to figure it out untilit's after the point and after the fact.
(10:37):
Now, you you were part ofobviously history in terms of the Olympic
team, the last Olympic team tofeature college players to win in the Olympics.
How much of that experience helped youwith a lot of those great players
on that team to be able totransition into the NBA, but also developed
(10:58):
that camaraderie in terms of those guysand from a social emotional standpoint in your
transition from college to the pros,Joe, it was so different back then.
You didn't have the exposure you donow. I mean, you know,
you might play on national TV threeor four times a year if you're
if you're lucky, you didn't havethe uh what they have now where every
(11:22):
game it's on national TV. Anduh, just the guys that you would
hear about, you didn't really seethem like and you didn't play with them
in the summer. There wasn't allthat what there that there is now And
so coming to the Olympic team andplaying with these guys, uh, and
(11:43):
then the draft was happening while wewere in Indianapolis, and I remember and
again, I don't even think wewatched it on TV. I don't even
know that it was. I mean, I can't. I don't know that
it was on TV. I can't. I think it might have been.
It really was an it in stages. I remember it was on TV.
But I mean, you know they'redrafting you know, uh, Elijah On
(12:07):
whom I played against at Arkansas,and then Sam Bowie who was at the
Olympic Trials, and then it wasMichael Jordan, and then and so on,
and then you knew Patrick Ewing andthen that was Sam Perkins and and
all these guys we were playing againstevery day, you know, And and
so I think that's kind of Ithink it gave you confidence to where,
(12:28):
hey, uh, you know,I can be drafted too, and I
can, I can, you know, play at the next level. And
then and then playing against these guys, and you know, having moderate success
against them kind of gave you confidencegoing into your senior year in college that
(12:48):
you know, you you were youwere a very good player, one of
the better players in the country.And and I know that it helped me
go and have a really good senioryear because you know, I practiced against
the best of the best for threemonths in the summer and there's no way
that could do anything. But youknow, help me, Yeah, I
(13:09):
mean it really was amazing and stuffback then, Joe, were you able
to tell Michael Jordan's greatness? Likewhat was that experience of seeing him in
those Olympic trials and being a partof the Olympic team. Well you knew,
I mean, jerd anybody who saysthat he was going to become what
(13:30):
he became and they knew that.I I'm like, I don't think anybody,
but we all knew that he wasgoing to be an NBA All Star,
he was going to be a hewas going to be a top player
in the NBA. Now him becomingthe goat, I mean, I don't
know that anybody foresaw that now andso but again, you knew he was
(13:56):
he was different, man, Hewas just he was different. He was
wired, very competitive, you know, talent beyond you know what you could
believe. But I think what madehim different. And Alvin Robertson, a
teammate of Miles was on the team, was kind of wired like Mike.
I mean, he just they justand watching him to go add it every
(14:18):
day in practice was just amazing.And I had great respect for Alvian Robertson
because I saw it every day withAlvin Robinson. So I thought, I
thought going I didn't think there wasanybody like Alvin Robertson, you know,
going into the Olympics, I waslike, there's no dude wired like this.
Dude, Well, yes there is, you know, yeah there is.
(14:39):
And it was Michael Jordan. Andthen on top of that, you
know, no disrespect to Alvin,but the basketball talent that Michael had with
the drive, you know, wasyou know, we you know, we
saw what we ended up seeing whatthat turned into, I mean, just
(15:00):
the goat. Yeah, how muchof a difference was it? Because you
I think you faced him in theNBA Finals in the ninety nine with the
Sons. No, that was ninetythree, was the Sons, and I
was. I was that. Iwas was Boston my next year, yeah,
three ninety two, ninety three theyplayed the Sons. I got to
the Sons in ninety three, ninetyfour. Okay, So when you saw
(15:22):
him in Boston and at that havingthe years on him and won a championship,
how much of a difference was mjfrom what you witnessed in the Olympic
trials and playing with them on theOlympic team. None, I mean he
he he brought it man every night. I mean he you could count there.
You know, as we always say, there's not a lot of things
(15:43):
in this world that you can counton. You could count on Michael Jordan
bringing it. And he brought itevery day in practice too. I mean
he was just driven. Larry Birdwas like that, but he he had
injury issues. But those two gotor two of the most driven human beings
that I've ever been around. Imean they wanted to play and go at
(16:06):
it and go at you every day, and you know they they did it
in games and they did it inpractice, and it was I mean,
it's just it's amazing. I meanit was utterly amazing to the effort because
I mean I was a guy that, like we talked about, I had
(16:26):
to stay ready and I would runand do extra work and things like that.
And I mean I can't tell youthe number of times that I'd get
to the gym early and you know, Larry would already be there, Michael
would be there. I mean,and they played forty minutes the night before.
They had played all night, everynight, and so you know,
(16:48):
I might have played five, Imight not have played at all, you
know, and I was coming inearly, and you know, I couldn't
beat them to the gym, andthey were and that's why they were such
great leaders, great uh, youknow, great players. I mean they
just they were relentless. When youlook at today's game, uh, Joe,
when you look at today's game andlook at what you were asked to
(17:12):
do back then, uh, todayyou're you're probably a guy that's stepping out,
shooting freeze and doing more. Whatare your thoughts on today's game specifically
and how the big man's role hasbeen sort of shifted more so? Well,
I mean it's when we played,it was an inside out game.
(17:33):
Now it's an outside end game.And so the train you know, my
training, if I was coming outnow, would be totally different. I
mean I would be I would belearning how to handle the ball. I
would be learning how to shoot threes. Those things would be more paramount.
I would be in the pick androll. Uh. In high school,
(17:53):
you know, I didn't do anypick and roll till I got to the
NBA when I was in college,and uh, I would be doing it
in AAU and probably in junior highnow and learning how to pick and pop
and put it on the floor.Somebody closed out on me and so I
would have trained and learned how toplay a totally different game. But I
(18:17):
do not like the fact that asize size and basketball is an advantage,
okay, and what regardless inside outoutside in size is an advantage. And
I cannot stand guys, especially nowin the pick and roll when they switch
(18:40):
and they switch, and I meanthey'll switch. They'll switch a two guard
onto a seven footer and they don'ttake him down and throw the ball in
there and just punish those guys,you know for that, you know,
or a big guy pick and popand have a guard on him. I
mean that drives me nuts. Somebodyasked me the other day if I thought
(19:03):
the big guy from Burdu would beany good eatie, and I was like,
yeah, if they use him.You know, they had him standing
out there at the three point line. You know, let let let guys
switch on him and then never throwthem the ball. That's why I love
the joker. I mean, hehe'll pick and pop, he'll shoot the
three. But he's learned how todrive the ball use his size, and
(19:27):
that's why I think he's so effective. He's and that's why I like watching
him play. He's got a littleold old school game to him. And
so I mean that that bothers mein that I don't mind bigs being able
to shoot. But if you're sevenfoot and all you're gonna do is spot
up and shoot threes, you mightas well be six foot two, you
(19:48):
know, I mean, it's there'sno difference. Yeah, a couple more
questions for I'll let you get onIdia Joe, And that's a great insight.
I mean, there's perhaps a guyin Minnesota that a lot of people
will clamoring. If it's not one, maybe two of them, you could
really really make that case for whenyou talk about the evolution of the big
that now plays outside in do youever think that we would have a situation
(20:11):
where we would get back to thebig man playing with perhaps maybe not as
back to the basket, but moreor less on that block tacking the basket.
Do you think that we would getback to that or is it basically
here to stay seven foot fours likewen Byamba is stepping out shooting threes and
living out on the perimeter. Idon't think it'll ever go all the way
(20:37):
back. The three point line analyticallyis too much of a I mean,
it's here, and it's proven tomake a huge difference in games, and
it can be a very big equalizerif you have supreme size against a smaller
team. The three point line hasnegated all that size advanced. So but
(21:00):
again, I think teams who useit wisely, use their bigs wisely,
can really really create advantages, notonly at the free throw line get teams
in foul trouble. It will alsohelp like you you brought up Towns,
I mean, when he's struggling,you know, and they're switching and everything.
(21:23):
Man, go down there and geta guard on you and get an
easy one. Go down there andget filed. So I mean, once
you see that ball go through thehoop a couple of times, that three
point shots gonna be a little biteasier because you're not gonna be pressing.
But it seems like sometimes it's like, well, I've missed five in a
row. You know I'm gonna keepshooting till I make it. Well,
(21:44):
some I mean they give you anextra point for a reason. I mean,
it's a harder shot, you know. I mean, they give you
an extra point. So try togo down there, especially if they're switching,
and take advantage, get something easy, get yourself back into the game
instead of just hammering the three.Again. I think Jokic just does a
(22:07):
great job. And then I thinkthey do a great job with a big
guy to high post on the switch, even if he stays at the high
posts. If you start cutting guysand moving guys, you know, the
bigs conceit. You know, theirline of sight is going to be so
much easier, and their ability topass the ball from up there is going
(22:29):
to be so much better because oftheir size advantage. So you know,
I don't think it's going to goback to throwing it down there and punishing
people, But I mean I hopethat it gets to where some of these
hybrid bigs will be hybrids and godown every now and then and use use
(22:52):
what God gave them, you know, their size. Yeah, that is
And last question, Joe before Ilet you get on that out of here
lost a legend. We all losta great, great, talented, really
really smart individual. And he comesto basketball the logo himself, mister Jerry
West. Your thoughts on Jerry Westin the life of this NBA player icon
(23:18):
Well, yeah, I mean everybodyknew who he was. He was an
iconic figure, just a and thenyou know, not just as a player,
he also did as an executive andan ambassador. I think he was
just a great overall, you know, help to the NBA. I think
(23:42):
he was a type of guy.I know for a fact that a lot
of things that happened behind the scenesthat nobody knows about, uh, he
was involved in. And I justthink his knowledge him being with the Lakers,
a big market team, and beingable to get Magic Johnson and having
(24:02):
the foresight to get Kobe and bringShack and I mean and get the showtime
Lakers with Kareem and then bringing itback with Kobe and them. I mean
that that was worth billions of dollarsto the NBA. I mean billions,
because having a team like that inLA, you can't write a better script
(24:25):
than then. Yeah, and obviouslyI said the last question of sneak this
one in here. When you lookback on your career, what is your
biggest takeaway? Man? Just fortunatelucky you were talented. Don't don't know,
don't no. I mean, butI mean again, it kind of
(24:47):
goes back to what we talked aboutright off the bat. I mean,
we all wanted to be NBA AllStars, we all wanted to be the
face of our team and things likethat. But that that can't happen.
That happens to a very few,uh and they are gifted and better than
all of us. But just tobe able to stick for fifteen years and
(25:11):
then to get to play with theCats I got to play with, man,
it's I mean, you know,I sit back and think about it.
You know, I played with JasonKidd, I played with you know,
I played with Shaq, I playedwith I played with Kobe, I
played with MJ. I played withPippen, I played with Charles Barkley,
(25:32):
Kenny Smith. You know, justI can't, you know, I can't.
I can't think of all of them. But I mean, it's just
a debt with Shrimp, Sabonus,Rashid Wallace, I mean, just all
these great guys that I got toplay with and be friends with and be
in a locker room with. Youknow, you just feel very fortunate to
(25:55):
be a part of that fraternity.And you know that's the thing you miss
the most. Man. You missedthe games and the excitement and everything,
but the practices and the locker roomand the bus rides and the plane rides
and the card games and the givingeach other hell in the locker room about
everything, and being in the tunnelin a playoff game on the road and
(26:15):
getting ready to run out, orin Philadelphia when you're with the Celtics and
everybody's wanting your you know, throwingstuff at you and stuff and just I
mean, just those are those arethings you can't you can't. You know,
those things happen and then when they'regone, you can't replicate those things.
And just fortunate to be able tobe a part of that. Yeah.
(26:40):
Well, you know, Joe,I really really want to say,
first and foremost followed your career definitelyseeing you play in the Olympics and obviously
seeing you play in the NBA,and I always can say, just like
a lot of good people, firstclass individual and I applaud you for all
that you have done. And youdefinitely presented picks will pick suey that rolls
(27:07):
off your tongue, so natural man, you could get you might be you
might be a long lost star Kansa. And didn't you No, no,
no, no no. Hey listen, I'm from New York. But you
know what, my good friend andgood family member Penny Hard ways over at
Memphis. So I know Memphis andArkansas. You know those rivalries back in
the days. Uh, it wasa big big thing and stuff, and
(27:30):
so definitely I know the history ofArkansas and such great, great basketball players
to come from that program. Butyou know, so yeah, I won't
let Penny knowl that that that cameoff your lips. Man, Joe Listen,
really really appreciate you taking out themost few moments out of your time.
(27:52):
All the best and definitely look forwardto getting you back on Serious XM
NBA Radio with Rick and I thankyou, Jerald, Tell Rick, Tell
Rick. Next time I see him, I'm gonna punch him in the face.
Hey listen, Hey, I'll giveyou a hundred dollars if you do
it for me. I want topunch him in his stuff and his bully
button. All right, man,thanks a lot. Always
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