September 26, 2025 • 50 mins
Caught up in current government conspiracies last week, we never made it to Jack. Jack attends a school reunion even though he quit in 8th grade. May very well have been Chubb’s reunion, but Jack knows the people there. We see Jack flying over CA in August and visiting Dennis and Charles. Jack and Nora get back together then heads back to Texas per Nora’s diary. Phoenix, AZ has a murder that includes bisection and Nora’s diary says that Jack is moving the family to Phoenix, AZ. Coincidence???
Hit the Road Jack: Finding the Zodiac is broadcast live Fridays at 10AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Hit the Road Jack: Finding the Zodiac TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
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Hit the Road Jack: Finding the Zodiac is broadcast live Fridays at 10AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Hit the Road Jack: Finding the Zodiac TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Hit the Road Jack: Finding the Zodiac Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/hit-the-road-jack-finding-the-zodiac--5297837/support.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, or any advice.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You should seek the services.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Good morning, True seekers and true crime junkies. Welcome back
to another episode of Hit the Roadjack Finding the Zodiac.
I'd like to introduce to the show today, Nolan del Campo, Oh, everybody,
good morning, and Lindsay mcbraer, Hey, good morning.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
All right.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well, I keep hearing back from this Kazpog guy on
my comments, and of course he always alludes to his
his uh person of interest, but he never really gives
me a clue as to who it is. Today, I
got a personal name, so he sent to me. He said, saying,
I'm glad that you brought up all these other murders
in Texas because my person of interest, I think is
responsible for a lot of unsolved murders as well. That's
(01:34):
why I asked what Jack's last name was. Maybe Jack
is the same person that I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Bill. I don't think I like Iranian or something.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Kasbay I think is just his screen name. I've seen
kas the clown, I've seen. I think that Lindsay you
saw one of his podcasts. He was hiding in a
tent or something like that.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yes, yes, and like he was saying how that people
were watching him and he was hiding out, and I
was like, what is going on with this dude?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah, he looked like he had created himself a sheet fork.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
He can if he's watching, he can tell us a
little bit more about.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
That something don't rock the ksvall. Yeah. Well, he also
goes on to say a lot of people say there's
no way that one man could commit so many murders,
But I believe one man committed a ton of murders,
over one hundred murders. Well, good lord, haven't we said
(02:49):
that a million times in the nineteen eighty six letters.
Says one hundred plus all over California Nevada. We're just
silly to think that it's isolated in those two areas.
But like I had indicated when I sent back to him,
the Texas Rangers couldn't have attempted to close over two
hundred cases across the country on one person, unless it
(03:10):
was possible that one person could have committed all those crimes,
right right, So yeah, well.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
Texas Rangers didn't do their jobs, he asked me. They
just wanted to close the cases. They didn't care if
it was justice or done.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
No, of course.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Well yeah, and they still do that.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I feel like a lot around the country.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So it's kind of DiAngelo. They pinned a lot of
stuff on him that he made.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Out have been right, just blanket pollush it underneath.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
YEP.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I actually received back a letter from the Humanity for
Prisoners on the wrongful conviction case of Peter Wilson. So
I basically sent it out to a whole bunch of people,
kind of like I did with the Zodiac with Dennis
and I, you know, going to different law enforcement agencies
and I sent I actually reached out to Julie Watts
(04:02):
of CBS thirteen News. She's an investigative reporter. She reached
back out to me and asked for additional information, but
I've not heard anything since, so I'm not sure if
she's working on it, if she's round filed it.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Or what.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
She's done the letter that I got from the Humanity
for Prisoners, and this is kind of the response you
get from people They just don't either have the time
or wherewithal. But it says, dear miss Bartow, please forgive
me for this late response to your letter of June tenth.
It had been misfiled.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I'm not sure that I can do anything to assist
in preparing a rid of habeas corpus for mister Wilson,
but I like the record to show that I completely
support the effort and I am convinced he is an
innocent man. Thank you for your work on this project.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Eh.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, So.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
At the second job was represented by a public defender, Yes, okay,
so well, the public definners always do a notice of
appeal on a feeling matter. It's required their job. And
every convicted fella in California is entitled to appeal by
right as long as you do the notice of appeal.
(05:08):
So he must have had an appeal, but he's he's
not getting back to us on that issue, because.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I'd like to look up his appeal and read well
why it was denied.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Well, he it hasn't been denied, and he did file,
the rid of having no yeah years ago exactly exactly.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Yeah. So if he's at the hevia stage, that means
he's already gone through the appeal stage.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Right well, and again based on the limited amount of
information and evidence that he had at that time. His
exculpatory evidence was missing, there was missing police files, his
blood splashed all over the scene by the officer. It
looked like he did it. I mean, what was there
to appeal? I think that appeal only amounts to whether
(05:53):
or not the court violated any of his rights or
broke any laws in their attempt to convict him, right or.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
The prosecutor And some of the stuff we've shown on
this show shows that there was a lot of wrongful
action by the prosecutor later get a judge.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
And I don't think the public defender was probably had
his teeth into it like you should have. I don't
think that he Yeah, I don't even think.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
To from the public defender's office.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
The appeal itself gets assigned to an appellate panel attorney
depending that would be the barrier, So that would be a.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Sea Cap and Sacramento. They have a different name.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
In San Francisco, but it's appellet project, and it's so
we'd go to a panel attorney to do.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
The appeal, right.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
But the thing is is, we have no idea if
his attorney didn't even do the job the first time
around in court asking for the right forensics, asking for
the results on various different things like the cigarette bud
or the semen or the you know, any of this stuff,
if he wasn't at asking for that stuff in court,
and of course, like we said, in the second round,
she had all of that stuff squashed, so the jury
(07:06):
wasn't even hearing third party ability. Literally they were just
fully deciding on whether or not he was guilty based
on his blood being at the crime scene.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
Well there's also where you always argue ineffective assistance of
counsel at the prolo.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Right, but again without knowing all the things that he
knew that he knows now, you know, he didn't get
most of this information and didn't realize.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That's why he still might have a Chancellor Heavius.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I'm so yeah, and gosh, I feel like he's applied
for this over a year almost maybe even two years now.
It seems like it's been going on for a minute.
But while I was at it at the same time.
I've been cleaning out my office installing new cabinets again,
and came across these business cards over here which I
thought were interesting. There's one from Aphrodite Jones up there
(07:57):
in the left hand corner from when we did the
episode on True Crime The Zodiac. And then I found
the City of Napa, Todd Schulman, he's a detective for
the Napa Police Department. And then Pat McMahon, Deputy sheriff
for Napa County Sheriff's Department. Dennis and I met with
these two individuals, and of course they had just been
(08:17):
given grant money by the either the state or the
government in order to go back and look at some
cold cases, but they had indicated they had more evidence
in other cases that they were going to spend the
money there trying to solve those I wish I would
have known what those cases were and how they actually
disposed of those cases, whether or not they actively used
(08:40):
that money for what it was supposed to be used for.
Either way, they just kind of looked at us and said, no, well, okay,
have a nice day. So I basically gave him my
handwriting Rundown and then we were out the door and
never heard from them again. So they obviously weren't any
more interested in investigating this case. As then the San
(09:01):
Francisco PD was.
Speaker 5 (09:03):
That's crazy, since we're that law enforcement doesn't want to
go back and admit that they missed something if it's old,
you know, the cold case well, admitting that they did
a poor job, went back in the day when the
crime went down.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And I don't understand the resistance at all, because when
I went back, I was just a couple of years ago.
I did the friction ridge fingerprint class at the NAPA
Sheriff's Department, and I spoke with the gal that ran
the forensics and the finger print department, and she was
interested in taking a look at it. She asked her
(09:41):
boss or one of the cold case detectives, whether or
not we could look at the fingerprints in comparison to
the one the right thumb print that we have of
Jack on his military records, and she was shot down
with a hard no, Wow, why we're we're willing to
do it. We're willing to look at it like this
is no off your guys's balls. You're not having to
(10:02):
put out any resources for this like, literally, we're willing
to do this and we're just being shot down even
being given the evidence necessary to do it. And it
just blows my mind. But Hall and all kind of
the same response we got there from that project, right,
The FBI pretty much said the same thing to me.
Nobody else is going to do this. No, no, and we
(10:23):
don't have the resources. Okay, so I've done it, Now
what are we going to do with it? Really? So
this brings us back to April nine, April nineteenth of
nineteen ninety two. Jack is at a fat family gathering
for easta Easter. We don't see Nora and Charles in
these pictures, there's no mention of them. This again, is
(10:45):
this year that Jack and Nora are separated. Nora is
back in California with Charles and Jack is in Texas
basically at his mom's house. So we see pictures of
Flova's house on the far right over here, this is
the one on Shady Oaks, and then Chubb's place in
sagein and this is probably approximately forty five minutes from Dale, Texas,
(11:05):
which I believe is where the Shady Oaks house is.
And Mason in.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
The third photo who's the.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Man that says I think it says Scott. So Granny
and Scott Chubb's House, Easter nineteen ninety two, Texas.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Okay, and Scott is what relation?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
I want to say that's Chubbs's son, and I won't.
And I think that Chubbs, I mean, I'm not sure
if it is Flova's brother. He looks about to be
Jack's age, so I'm wondering if he's a cousin. And
maybe Gary or one of the family members that reach
out to me every now and again is watching this
episode and I'll be able to tell us who who
(11:45):
these individuals are in play. I thought Chubbs was was
Chuck who died, but it turns out I had them confused.
So Chubbs is different than Chuck. Chuck is Jack's brother
who died and we read his eulogy not too long ago.
In the present, we do have another Ice seventy murder.
On May seventh of nineteen ninety two, Sarah Blessing and
(12:07):
Saint Louis, Missouri at a strip mall gift shop in
broad daylight. Witnesses confirmed sighting in Wichita, and the ballistics
confirmed that all of the Ice seventy murders are connected
by the by the bullets to be the same killer,
so we know it is the same person that's hopping
around doing this. We do see an envelope for Nora's
(12:29):
Hearnce where the address of Sunrise Avenue has been crossed out,
and now it has the Saint Patrick Court and Citrus Heights,
which is where she is at at the time. This
address has not been established for Jacket based on any
of the information I have, So again this confirms the breakup.
Let's see. Okay, so the Patrick Saint Patrick Court turns
(12:53):
out to have been Dennis's address. So this envelope is
coming from the law offices of Racy Esterbrook, and it
shows that he's a personal injury and criminal law attorney,
but I don't know what business Nora has with him
at this time. Then we hop back over to Texas
and we see Jack at a reunion in Peacock, Texas
on July of ninety two. This is where we see
(13:15):
Chubbs up here in the left hand picture. Where's my Oh,
there you are. Chubbs is up here in this left
hand side of the picture, and we have Jack over
here on the right side. I noted his barrel chested
body frame here because as we climb into nineteen ninety six,
it is one of the witness's statements in regards to
(13:36):
a possible suspect with John Benny Ramsay. But we see
the weight that Jack has put on, so Jack has
supposedly only finished eighth grade. So I'm not sure how
he's at this reunion, whether it's Chubbs's reunion, But he
seems to be familiar with all the individuals, so he
notates Jake and Bill Peacock reunion, and then Jake and
(14:00):
Bill again over here, so he knows some of these people,
and we see Jack standing behind him right there. He
knows these individuals, so maybe he did go to the
school with them, But again his records show that he
only finished up to eighth grade, so I don't know
what kind of reunion this would be.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Peacock.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Peacock, Texas is not that big. As a matter of fact,
Jack listed in one of these pictures up here, we
can see that the whole downtown had what looked like
four businesses but huge so it said one store was
left open two days a week. Second hand in antique
(14:40):
in Peacock, Texas, reunion. G A Bradford's Widow has A
store was a grocery until Ga died in nineteen ninety one,
and now it literally has a population of about one
hundred and twenty five people in this entire town almost
like just basically dwindling down to nothingness. Get it. There's
(15:00):
no stores, there's no gas stations, there's no nothing here.
It looks like.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Now and.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Right, not even a McDonald's. You got to drive ten
miles in the snow, Starbucks appear right, I'm dying laughing.
So I had my grandkids this last weekend, and my
granddaughter was saying to me, she goes, you know, Nana,
if if you let this thing time out, and she's
(15:30):
talking about the TV, Netflix, anything streaming. Basically she said,
if you don't catch it and press that you want
to continue, it will actually kick you completely out and
then you have to log all the way back in
and go all the way back to where you were
and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And I
felt myself having that five mile in the snow, barefoot
walk conversation with her. But it went something like this,
(15:51):
I'm like girl back on my day we could turn
the TV on and it would stay on all day long.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
And now you've watched and it's a joke.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Well, your TV, I think, even senses when you are
in the room and when you're not, and we'll literally
literally like a computer, go to sleep on your butt.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I think I think that there is evidence of the
Samsung Smart TV's for sure that you can do that.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, yeah, and that's what I have. Lucky me. Woo.
I know I have one too.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Yeah, but I didn't even discover that until I'd already
bought it. So I was like, well, right.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
But it's a plasma, it's about twenty years old.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Oh yeah, yours isn't timing out on you. You can turn
it on, it's gonna.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Stay on the master bedroom.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
But that that's things that our children are never gonna
know of, you know. And you turn a TV on
and the TV stays on.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
What mine?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Mine likes to also time out at two hours for
whatever the reason. So if I don't grab the remote
to attempt to turn it to, you know, stop it
from timing out, it'll give me a sixty second counter.
And if I don't find that remote quick enough, everything
shuts off. Cool it's control, right, and it's literally more busy.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It's saying worse farther than you are, or we know
better what's good for you than you do.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Well, and they make it out to be something that's good,
but in reality it's not.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
One is learning us right now, he says, it's a setting.
You can change it.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I still think that they still can. They still know right,
even if the setting is off.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah. Well, Jack seems to be awfully busy this particular year,
and how he's traveling and how he's getting around, I
am not quite sure. I know that he was fighting
for his disability still at this point, but now we
see him in a plane and he writes on the
back of it Loon Lake eight twenty two ninety two,
(18:07):
altitude thirty five thousand feet. Now, I like to bring
this one up because this is something that Dbee Cooper
did when he called out Tacoma and the Air Force
base in dB Cooper, he stated they were at twenty
six thousand feet and he knew that a location of
Tacoma Lake. So to see this picture, which of course
(18:27):
you can kind of barely tell it, but there's the
lake right dead center of the picture. He's at and
he knows how he knows. I don't know, because I'm
pretty sure they don't have those nifty screens on the
back of the seats for you to stare at to
see where you're flying, like we got to see when
we were going to Ireland, and it told you your altitude,
it told you how fast you were going, how many
(18:47):
miles you've gone, and how many miles till you get there.
I'm pretty sure in nineteen ninety two they didn't have that,
but somehow jacknaw at thirty five thousand feet. Let's see, Yeah,
Lake Tacoma at twenty thousand feet is what Dbe Cooper said.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
Near the.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Air Force base, which was another thing that he had quoted.
And Loon Lake was that lake in specific that Dennis
talked about that in nineteen eighty early nineteen eighties, Jack
would take him and his friend and drop him off
and be gone for days and week at a time.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
So yeah, now except towards Tahoe, right.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I want to say, well, let's see Loon You can
see it right here, so yeah, it looks like it
might be up fifty because you're going towards South Lake Tahoe, right,
there and here's lake. Yeah, it's about two hours from Sacramento.
(19:51):
So again I believe that this picture that he's quoting
the thirty five thousand feet over Loon Lake indicates he's
coming into or leaving out of California. So I'm not
exactly sure if this is coming in or if this
is leaving. But we do show a picture where he
states that he's visiting Dennis Charles at Dennis's house on
(20:12):
Saint Patrick Court. We just talked about that address in
Citrus Heights summer of nineteen ninety two. Though it didn't
give me a precise month, we know that this also
again confirms that Jack and Nora are not together. And
I wanted to emphasize something. I have two sets of
diaries for Nora, one for nineteen ninety three, which is
(20:35):
this going to talk about this move into Arizona, and
one for nineteen ninety six, and I found it rather
odd that these were the only two years that Jack
would have kept if he was keeping her diaries. But
two of these, both of these relate to or are
indicators of upcoming crimes and things that have occurred. So
(20:56):
this is says the year of nineteen ninety three, but
it's actually in ending with November first, and it says
Jack and Nora gets back together in California and she
returns to Texas with Jack per her diary, and they
returned to Texas by November fourth. We do see a
cable bill that Jack is paying from August through February
(21:17):
of nineteen ninety three, which indicates that he is at
the Shady Oaks lot in Texas with Flova. So all
of that stuff is coinciding, and now at this point
in time we see Jack and Nora getting back together.
That brings us to our first murder in Phoenix, Arizona,
and the reason why I indicate that it's interesting that
(21:40):
nineteen ninety three was a year of her diary that
he kept, because it really tracks where they are going
and what they're up to. But this murder is probably
another one of those gruesome ones like Black Dahlia. It
was a twenty two year old, It was in a park,
she took a bike ride. The bike is missed. It says,
(22:05):
I don't know why I put in their reason for
pointing out a bike. But South Carolina murders, California and
another Arizona murder all included bikes. The headless body was
found in a park south of Cactus Road, which is
like I indicated the bisection that we saw in Elizabeth
Short and the Lipstick and I forty five murders with
(22:25):
partial bones being found in graves of other bodies. The
head was found in a stretch of the canal about
two miles south of where her body was found the canal.
See this is why I pay Oh my god, I
know again we have the headless boy of Walsh, right,
we have another headless individual, and schools are being found here,
(22:50):
there and everywhere. And we've got don Alasa's yeah, found
on eighty and twenty. So it seems to be something
that that's exactly why I pulled this in, and the
fact that they're getting ready to move to Arizona screams volumes,
wait till we get into that. Information also shows that
the abdomen and chest were cut open, which again that's
(23:12):
more Elizabeth Short stuff. I put in here to research
Buffalo Bill. I know it's another movie, but for whatever reason,
there always seems to be some media play in whatever's
going on. The newspaper reads.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
So I want you guys to watch this weekend real
quick Snake Guys from that. I think it's nineteen ninety
six movie with Nicholas Cage called Snake As I watched
it last night, if everybody's.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Been talking about it all over social.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Media, and it does tell a lot, so just stick
that in there before I forget.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Okay, Hello, yep, we lost you? What did you say?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Watch what Snake Guys?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Was it just me the lost everybody?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I think she lost hers again. Everything started spinning. Even
my own PowerPoint presentation went blank and was spinning like
everything was buffering on my end. So yeah, I missed it,
he says, I hear everyone. Okay, go ahead, lindsay sorry.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
So Snake Guys is thank you. I think it's from
nineteen ninety six and it had the main character is
Nicholas Cage in his younger days and it's very telling
about things that are happening now. So yeah, yeah, it's
a good, thank good watch for this weekend if y'all
don't have anything to watch.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Snake Guys. All right, all right, So the newspaper on this,
gal angel Lebrosso reads, was beheaded and disemboweled after she
left her uh Northwest Phoenix apartment for nightly bike ride
through Cave Creek Park. Slain was one of the valley's
most gruesome killing. It has never been solved. Angela's body
was found on her twenty second birthday on a bike
(25:04):
trail near Cactus Road in Interstate seventeen. Her abdomen and
chest had been cut open. Her head was a found
was found eleven days later in the Arizona Canal between
Dunlap and Peoria Avenues. Her walkman and her purple twenty
one speed Diamondback bike have never been found. I put
in here I think that this was this could have
(25:25):
been a murder that Jack committed while scouting out the
next place that they're going to move to. As we've
seen in so many other situations, Jack moves goes to
wherever it is, just like Dennis said, goes to wherever
it is that he's scouting the new place on his own,
does his own reconnaissance, if you will, to figure out
where they're going to live. I believe that it is
(25:46):
possible he commits one murder at that point and then
comes back to get the family, and while he's gone
and they're heavily looking for a killer. In regards to
this body, that's back in the other state. They have
no idea to even be looking at Jack because he
is not even around while the investigations going on. And
within three to six months he shows back up and
moves into that area.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
They found the bike. You think the killer wouldn't want
to take the bike, it would be stupid.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Well, I want to show you here real quick. And
I mean, the coincidences are fairly heavy when it comes
to Jack in these cases. But I believe at some
point when we get here into into Arizona with the family,
that Charles ends up getting a bike. And I wish
(26:35):
Nora had like marked what kind of bike and color
it was?
Speaker 4 (26:42):
Smoking again right, Well, you know there's a bike theory
in the John Bennet case too.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
There's a bike theory.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
I don't know if y'all went down that yeah that
you know they got bikes for that Christmas. But there's
some speculation as to uh, what's his name, her brother
riding the bike the night before down the road. But
then there's like other witnesses that say there that he did,
(27:13):
and then there's other witnesses say that he didn't and
the bike was uh. But then if they turned around
and said no, he didn't get this bike for Christmas.
It was like kind of like a lot of back
and forth in the in the case files as far
as like the family saying that he rode the bike,
or he didn't ride the bike, or he did get
a new bike, or was it you know he'd already
(27:33):
had that bike from his birthday. It was Yeah, like.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
They're necessarily involved with the murder, just just them talking
about a bike.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Yeah, us, Yes, why would why would it be important
to put out story different stories about.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
This bike right exactly? Yeah, and the night before? Who
cares about the night before? What we need to figure
out is what happened the night up? Yeah. Nah. And honestly,
there's several of these cases where the bike has been
laid on top of the victims. The bike has been
found you know X amount of feet away, same as
(28:15):
the cars in some of these cases, you know, blocks
to miles away. The suspect has taken the vehicle and
left it someplace else. And so basically, her bike going
missing just means it wasn't found around the body, but
she was known to have left off on her bike
to go for a ride that night, and the bike
is nowhere to be found. Now, this other murder was
(28:36):
a body found in West Pittsburgh and it shows well,
the obituary shows November tenth is the date of death,
So I'm assuming that it would have had to have
been somewhere between the first and tenth of November, which
I think We've got Jack pretty solid back in Texas
with Nora at this point in time, and if anything,
he's hopping back and forth to Arizona, which we have
(28:57):
some evidence of that as well. So I don't think
that this one was necessarily involved with these cases. But
Sandy Betts did think that this was possibly committed by
the Zodiac. Here's that evidence that we were talking about.
So I'm making an assumption when I say this only
because the expiration date on this particular it's a security
(29:19):
guard provisional certificate for it's issued by Arizona Department of
Public Safety, and it's issued to Jack Terrence. Now, of
course it says five of ninety two on it is
the revision date of this particular provisional license, but it
looks to be it looks to me that it has
probably a two year it's good for two years because
(29:42):
it expires on January twenty fifth of nineteen ninety five,
which would indicate that Jack is a has at least
applied for it by January twenty fifth of nineteen ninety five,
which also means well, and again this you know, playing
with these dates a little bit here and there, is
that he probably had to do a background check, He
probably had to put in an application. There were probably
(30:03):
things that had to occur in order to obtain this
particular provisional license, which suggests that Jack has been frequenting
the Arizona area. Either way, we know that he's working
in Arizona by March of ninety five as a security guard,
at least based on the information that I have, So
it would suggest that yes, Jack has been frequenting Arizona
(30:25):
more than we know. On January twenty sixth of nineteen
ninety three, sixty three year old Dana E. Empringham on
the twenty six thousand block of Maple Wood, Spring, Texas,
Montgomery County. It's stated that he was widowed at the
time of his death. He used a wheelchair to get
around due to a leg injury, but was not confined
to it. He operated a gun shop out of his
(30:47):
home named DK Enterprise.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Inc.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
And witnesses saw suspect running from the house to brown
Mercury cougar type vehicle and leave with the lights off.
The law enforcement believes it was raw So may not
even be related here to what we have going on
with Jack, but I have it in here because it's
another Texas murder and Jack is right next door basically,
(31:11):
and that brings us back to Nora's diary. We had
some more interesting reveals in this. It does state that
Jack had talked with his mother about moving to Phoenix, Arizona.
So this is the first mention on February twentieth of
Jack actually speaking to his mom about it. On oh yeah,
(31:34):
so I notated that it's interesting that this woman that's beheaded, disemboweled,
and all of these other things is exactly where Jack
is talking about on February twentieth of moving to Now
he is stating that he wants to move to Phoenix, Arizona,
and that is his goal, that's what he's looking at.
But we know that they eventually end up in Flagstaff,
(31:56):
and this entry February twenty six is Jack was to
leave next week to Phoenix and me stay here and
take care of Granny. Red and find us a place.
So that confirms what Dennis says that Jack would leave
on his own to go look for wherever it is
they were going to move to, and then come back
and move the family with him. Nineteen ninety three to
(32:18):
nineteen ninety seven, ancestry dot com shows Jack and Comanche, Texas,
which is thirty miles from Gorman, Texas. But obviously he
is in Arizona from ninety three to ninety five per
his own records and Nora's diary. So ancestry dot com
can be wrong sometimes.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Well I found it to be wrong a lot too.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Well, and you know they can only piece back together
so much.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
I mean, well, you know that's why it's always good
to use multiple sources.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Right, right, let's see, Okay, So here in this particular entry,
I guess after Jack had spoke to his mother about
moving to Phoenix, Arizona, he asked if she wanted to go,
and then of course they I guess they're already recording
(33:10):
people on the phone. So this is interesting because it's
something Dennis used to do. He's recorded law enforcement several
times in their conversations, but they recorded Flova, Jack's mom
talking to one of her friends in regards to this move,
and the friend is convinced or at least trying to
convince Flova that they're trying to take your house or
trying to take your money, They're trying to make you move. They're,
(33:32):
you know, basically was conspiring to take all that Flova
had and got Flova very upset. So she's having this
conversation and it's being recorded by Jack and Nora so
they can go back and listen to what she's saying
to her friends, which that's just ekey, that's good, And
this is actually ninety this is nineteen ninety three, you guys.
(33:54):
Phone calls are being recorded. The response to this the
is what absolutely floors me, because this is just that
we know that Jack's not rational, and why else would
I have him paid for the Zodiac Killer. But this
entry of the diary goes on to say that they
headed over to Nell's house, the woman that was trying
(34:14):
to convince Jack's mom that he was trying to take
advantage of her, and I was blown away to see it,
says says. She must have known we were coming because
all their cars were there, but no one answered the door.
It was a good thing. She didn't answer her door.
It was Jack was ready to put a fist in
(34:35):
her face. Jack took his gun. That's how angry he
was to an old lady's house. That is so irrational.
You're going to go to an old lady's was with
a gun because you didn't like the conversation she had
with your mother.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Yeah, well, it just shows you the easiest tick that
would trigger him exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Yeah. I can't imagine taking my gun anywhere out of anchor.
I mean, it's just not something you do.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
And it shows you she may have been onto.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Something I think she was.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
Yeah, if you knew it was falsehood, he wouldn't be
that worried about it, although you could still be bad.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
But if you knew something it was true, then he would.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Be really bad, right, yeah, right, And then to respond
in that kind of manner is exactly what we would
expect to see out of somebody of the likes of
the Zodiac Killer, very very hot headed, very Yeah. Like
you said, a simple tick just sends him flying. So
imagine every time Nora left him and we see all
(35:44):
this upticks and murders, you know, people getting killed left
and right. So here is the other entry about them
preparing to actually move into Arizona. They're talking about picking
up Charles's records from school and getting everything going. Her
son in law, Rick, Mary's husband is coming into town
to help them with this move. So just basically again
(36:07):
is confirming this forward motion into Arizona. And then on
March eleventh, nineteen ninety three, Jack and Nora moved to
flag Staff. Now, of course Flagstaff is just where they
made it to. That was not their intentions. And the
diary goes back and forth talking about whether or not
they're going to stay, whether not they're going to move
(36:27):
on to Phoenix. Like I think this one says small
rider truck, put a deposit on it. We are moving
to Phoenix in a week or so when Rick gets here.
So here's this motion for Phoenix, Arizona. But by the
time they get there, they ended up actually staying in Flagstaff.
So it looks it says. Nora indicates in her diary
(36:49):
that they're looking for a place to buy again. Jack
doesn't show any signs of having a job or any income.
I don't know where the money is supposed to be
coming from. March thirteenth, there at seven am in Demi,
New Mexico with a friend with one of their friends,
Jim Sherbet on Highway one eighty. It looks like Nora
has relatives and uncle Henry that lives in Springville, Arizona,
(37:13):
and relatives Pia and Pete and cousin which are cousins,
and aunt Babe it says in Flint flag Staff. So
on top of everything else, it turns out that they
have family there. That's probably going to be easier for
them to move into that area. And I believe what
she was complaining about was the cost of rents, which
(37:33):
did make any sense because they go from saying they
wanted looking for a house to buy to you know,
rent is too high, and so I don't know if
they're just cross referencing the meaning of rent as a
house payment or because some people say my rent when
really it's their house payment. Yeah. Now, so she.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
Was worried about money, she would have definitely, you know,
wrote about that if she if there was some indication
of not having money or being stressed about money, and
she would definitely have that in there. If he didn't
have a job and he didn't have income.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Well, and it does go on to talk about that
is in some of these other entries as far as,
like I said, they're going back and forth, going, don't, don't.
Didn't want to go to Phoenix all afternoon, but now
checked out some places and drove around the town. Once
we made up our minds we were going to stay.
Took the truck back this morning. So like they are
back and forth, back and forth over it and money
(38:28):
does seem to be a concern. Got a Phoenix paper
and looked in it. After we ate. We sat there
a while. Oh, anyways, I wanted to go back because
I didn't finish off Charles. I think this is the
entry where it talks about Charles having gotten a bike,
and of course they're in Arizona already at this point,
(38:50):
which is interesting. But it says Green Mountain Sport SPC
hard Rock. That's a little too much information. I do
not believe that she put that in here, but I
would have to go back to find it.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
So badged out to Phoenix.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
I think it's pretty close. Yeah, I don't feel like
it was too far. I don't know that I ever Actually.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
I would say thirty to thirty minutes to an hour, dokay.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I just know that in like I said, all of
these entries are them going back and forth. So you know,
at the top here it says, trying to decide if
we were going to stay here in flag because the
rent seemed to be too high and our feelings were
we should go to Phoenix after all. Nonetheless, so it
sounds to me like what they're saying is Flagstaff's rent
(39:41):
was too high and that they should be going to
Phoenix after all. But then at the very ending of
this it says Jack said, we are not going anywhere.
We are going to stay right here. She says, I
was excited once again because I really didn't want to
go to Phoenix all afternoon.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
So more expensive than Phoenix, That's what.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
I would have thought.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
But maybe flags it's obvious that he's avoiding Phoenix for
a reason.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Well, but Phoenix may be more urban, right, I mean
Flagstaff might be more could have been yeah, yeah, it
could have been a ritty area. I don't know. At
any rate. We see Jack here again in his security
guard uniform, and this is when he begins working for
(40:30):
Arizona University. Now, Dennis's book said to us that then
they moved to Washington, Arizona, Texas, and in nineteen ninety
eight they moved back to Sacramento. But what I actually
found is that they moved to Texas. So obviously Nora
and Jack get back together. They moved to Texas, then
to Arizona, and then we're going to find information that
(40:52):
shows that Jack ships Nora off to Washington when they
leave Arizona because he goes back to Texas to take
care of his mom and Nora and Flova do not
get along. So a little bit of an inconsistency with
where they went during this timeframe from Dennis's book, But
I think that we've laid out enough information here to
show exactly where they've been. I did find a whole
(41:13):
bunch of cursive writing, which is kind of a task
for me to have to go back to. Also some
typewritten matters, but these are all letters that were sent
to Jack's mom or the hide tanning recipe. This one
is ask your instructor, and I want to say that
this was, Yeah, this is in Flagstaff at Arizona five
(41:35):
twenty two of ninety three, So I'm not sure if
he's taking a course because it does say ask your
instructor on top, but it also looks like he's complaining
about some issues. Says cannot load the general Ledger program,
tried numerous ways, et cetera. I'm using dr JOSS five
point zero but tried ms DOS three point three. Please
(41:57):
either repair, replace, or tell me what I am doing wrong.
So it doesn't sound like it's a note to a professor, right,
sounds more like it's a technical computer issue with possibly
what he's doing for work. I'm not sure either way,
So a whole bunch.
Speaker 4 (42:14):
Of use that notepad that was supposed to be intended
for students.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Right, So use the space below for immediate personal help
from your instructor. To ensure a prompt reply to your
consultation request, please make your written request as brief and
clear as possible. If you've written before about the same question,
please be sure to enclose copies of all past correspondence
on the subject in the event you have future questions.
(42:41):
We are closing another copy of this form.
Speaker 4 (42:44):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yeah, I couldn't really tell where that is, but we
do see that he's doing some type of computer work
or he is taking a class in computers either way,
and maybe something he's doing at Arizona University. Who knows, Yes,
there's a.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
Lot of different craziness going on in these universities too.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Right right, Well, I want to say that at the
time that I was investigating the anthrax stuff, that there
was indication of research, which I will get back to
once I make a second round on this stuff. There
was research being done on I think, different strains of anthrax,
and it was being held at Arizona University. And that
(43:27):
was one of the reasons why I thought that Jack
and I want to say, Hemphil it was his name
was one of the individual's name in the anthrax cases.
His manuscript on anthrax and weaponizing anthrax had been reported stolen,
and I want to think that that was out of
Arizona University as well. So was all of this happening
(43:49):
at the same time Jack was acting as a security
guard where he'd have access to all these different locations
because it's his job to keep things secure, which means
he would have keys to get into these things, right yeah, yeah,
some some very interesting.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
And they would trust him with a lot of different things.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
Right. Here we have Gary. Now I'm a little confused.
I threw these pictures in here. It says Gary Lee Flagstaff,
nineteen ninety four, now, it's not impossible that Gary visited
visited more than one year during summertime. But some of
the date sequences that I have is April seventh of
(44:30):
nineteen ninety three, Gary comes to visit from Sacramento by motorcycle.
On April ninth of ninety three, Jack and Nora go
to the Grand Canyon with Gary on Easter Sunday, April
eleventh of nineteen ninety three. I need to go back
and find those pictures because I'm pretty sure that's going
to put him back in Texas. During that time, he
always seems to go home for Easter. And then April twelfth,
(44:52):
nineteen ninety three, Gary leaves to go back to Sacramento.
But then we see these pictures here and this is
the house in Flagstaff, and we can see the cream
colored van here in the in the left hand side
of the picture, which that was actually reported. That was
a type of vehicle that was reported in one of
the crimes that we've discussed. I don't know if the
timeframes are correct for this or not, but clearly Jack
(45:15):
and Nora had that cream colored van and we got
to see it in we looked said Metro City. We
saw the cream colored van, so maybe that was the
same trip to the Grand Canyon. Either way, I need
to go back and find the nineteen ninety three easter picks.
But we see he's still, you know, traveling kind of
all over the place and people coming to visit him.
So I think that well that we made it through
(45:38):
all twenty slides. You guys, I'm actually fairly impressed. Is
there anything anybody would like to add or talk about, because.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
We've got it's pretty gal right, this is a little place.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Yeah, And I'm gonna send you some stuff on the
Arizona University. It's very interesting the history, and I'm curious
to go back in my history of that research and
see during that time.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Frame what I could find. Well, and it isn't another
coincidence that we had do Hers, professor out of Arizona
University take interest in Dennis and the Jacks Zodiac connection.
He even tried to tie himself to it because he
was in South Lake Tahoe purportedly during the time of
(46:31):
the Dona last stuff. But he was also I believe
what is technical ability was to be able to determine
what is being seen in pictures that's not so very
clear for others of us to pick up. So it
was almost as if.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
To say.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
He was an infiltrator, you know, That's kind of what
it felt like, because he did run off with a
lot of the negatives that Dennis had. He refused to
give some of those pictures back to Dennis. He claimed
he wanted to keep him for his book. But I've
been through his book and I didn't see any of
those negatives that that Dennis was asking for back. So, yeah,
(47:12):
why did he come into Dennis's life? I guess I
never really, you know, stood up and asked, you know,
how did you come across him? How? You know, how
did you guys get involved with each other? But he
had made several trips out here to California, and I
was in his presence and had spoken with him on
several occasions, and we had done some research together and
(47:32):
looking through Jack's stuff. So I do know who Stephen
Doohurst is. But again, he's coming out of Arizona University.
Is that a coincidence?
Speaker 5 (47:43):
The University of Northern Arizona is in Flagstaff, and Flagstaff
is really close to Greg Canyon and it is kind
of like a tourist town. There's the downtown has been
Uh it's a historical with U shot and it's right
along Route sixty six, says, so I could see why
(48:05):
Wrench might be high there.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, and we had the Phillip sixty six
map with the Zodiac cipher with Mount Diablo circled over
the top of it, so many connections back to Arizona
Constellation Mountains. I'm not sure if that one was in
New Mexico or Arizona, but Dennis talked about a story
(48:28):
Jack would tell that him and two other guys went
into the mountains, but only two people walked out, so
as if to say they killed one of the people
that was with them and the other two left.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Well, there's a lot of people that mission in that area,
in the in the in the canyon.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
Well, and we have too. So aside from the first
beheading that we saw on November eighth, we're going to
have another one while Jack is, you know, currently living
there in Arizona. Second second murder, same type of style.
I believe another beheading. We haven't gotten to it yet,
but it does kind of scream that hey, I'm here.
(49:16):
Are you still looking something up there?
Speaker 5 (49:18):
No one, No, I'm just reading about Blacks. Nineteen thirty,
Pluto was discovered from flaxtaf.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Oh my god, sixty six.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
That led it to it being a tourist.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
Gotcha, Well that would be and that would explain why
it was so expensive, especially if it's close to the
Grand Canyon. All right, well, we have our final seconds here.
As we time out, I want to thank you both
for being here. We are doing a pre record on Monday,
so if you guys are interested, it'll be at eleven
am our time. So everybody have a wonderful weekend and
(49:56):
we will see you next Friday.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Okay, maybe Monday. We'll see again Monday.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
Okay, I'll see you by. Take care guys.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Bye,
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, or any advice.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You should seek the services.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Good morning, True seekers and true crime junkies. Welcome back
to another episode of Hit the Roadjack Finding the Zodiac.
I'd like to introduce to the show today, Nolan del Campo, Oh, everybody,
good morning, and Lindsay mcbraer, Hey, good morning.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
All right.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well, I keep hearing back from this Kazpog guy on
my comments, and of course he always alludes to his
his uh person of interest, but he never really gives
me a clue as to who it is. Today, I
got a personal name, so he sent to me. He said, saying,
I'm glad that you brought up all these other murders
in Texas because my person of interest, I think is
responsible for a lot of unsolved murders as well. That's
(01:34):
why I asked what Jack's last name was. Maybe Jack
is the same person that I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Bill. I don't think I like Iranian or something.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Kasbay I think is just his screen name. I've seen
kas the clown, I've seen. I think that Lindsay you
saw one of his podcasts. He was hiding in a
tent or something like that.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yes, yes, and like he was saying how that people
were watching him and he was hiding out, and I
was like, what is going on with this dude?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah, he looked like he had created himself a sheet fork.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
He can if he's watching, he can tell us a
little bit more about.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
That something don't rock the ksvall. Yeah. Well, he also
goes on to say a lot of people say there's
no way that one man could commit so many murders,
But I believe one man committed a ton of murders,
over one hundred murders. Well, good lord, haven't we said
(02:49):
that a million times in the nineteen eighty six letters.
Says one hundred plus all over California Nevada. We're just
silly to think that it's isolated in those two areas.
But like I had indicated when I sent back to him,
the Texas Rangers couldn't have attempted to close over two
hundred cases across the country on one person, unless it
(03:10):
was possible that one person could have committed all those crimes,
right right, So yeah, well.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
Texas Rangers didn't do their jobs, he asked me. They
just wanted to close the cases. They didn't care if
it was justice or done.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
No, of course.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Well yeah, and they still do that.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I feel like a lot around the country.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So it's kind of DiAngelo. They pinned a lot of
stuff on him that he made.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Out have been right, just blanket pollush it underneath.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
YEP.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I actually received back a letter from the Humanity for
Prisoners on the wrongful conviction case of Peter Wilson. So
I basically sent it out to a whole bunch of people,
kind of like I did with the Zodiac with Dennis
and I, you know, going to different law enforcement agencies
and I sent I actually reached out to Julie Watts
(04:02):
of CBS thirteen News. She's an investigative reporter. She reached
back out to me and asked for additional information, but
I've not heard anything since, so I'm not sure if
she's working on it, if she's round filed it.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Or what.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
She's done the letter that I got from the Humanity
for Prisoners, and this is kind of the response you
get from people They just don't either have the time
or wherewithal. But it says, dear miss Bartow, please forgive
me for this late response to your letter of June tenth.
It had been misfiled.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I'm not sure that I can do anything to assist
in preparing a rid of habeas corpus for mister Wilson,
but I like the record to show that I completely
support the effort and I am convinced he is an
innocent man. Thank you for your work on this project.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Eh.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, So.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
At the second job was represented by a public defender, Yes, okay,
so well, the public definners always do a notice of
appeal on a feeling matter. It's required their job. And
every convicted fella in California is entitled to appeal by
right as long as you do the notice of appeal.
(05:08):
So he must have had an appeal, but he's he's
not getting back to us on that issue, because.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I'd like to look up his appeal and read well
why it was denied.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Well, he it hasn't been denied, and he did file,
the rid of having no yeah years ago exactly exactly.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Yeah. So if he's at the hevia stage, that means
he's already gone through the appeal stage.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Right well, and again based on the limited amount of
information and evidence that he had at that time. His
exculpatory evidence was missing, there was missing police files, his
blood splashed all over the scene by the officer. It
looked like he did it. I mean, what was there
to appeal? I think that appeal only amounts to whether
(05:53):
or not the court violated any of his rights or
broke any laws in their attempt to convict him, right or.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
The prosecutor And some of the stuff we've shown on
this show shows that there was a lot of wrongful
action by the prosecutor later get a judge.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
And I don't think the public defender was probably had
his teeth into it like you should have. I don't
think that he Yeah, I don't even think.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
To from the public defender's office.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
The appeal itself gets assigned to an appellate panel attorney
depending that would be the barrier, So that would be a.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Sea Cap and Sacramento. They have a different name.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
In San Francisco, but it's appellet project, and it's so
we'd go to a panel attorney to do.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
The appeal, right.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
But the thing is is, we have no idea if
his attorney didn't even do the job the first time
around in court asking for the right forensics, asking for
the results on various different things like the cigarette bud
or the semen or the you know, any of this stuff,
if he wasn't at asking for that stuff in court,
and of course, like we said, in the second round,
she had all of that stuff squashed, so the jury
(07:06):
wasn't even hearing third party ability. Literally they were just
fully deciding on whether or not he was guilty based
on his blood being at the crime scene.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
Well there's also where you always argue ineffective assistance of
counsel at the prolo.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Right, but again without knowing all the things that he
knew that he knows now, you know, he didn't get
most of this information and didn't realize.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That's why he still might have a Chancellor Heavius.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I'm so yeah, and gosh, I feel like he's applied
for this over a year almost maybe even two years now.
It seems like it's been going on for a minute.
But while I was at it at the same time.
I've been cleaning out my office installing new cabinets again,
and came across these business cards over here which I
thought were interesting. There's one from Aphrodite Jones up there
(07:57):
in the left hand corner from when we did the
episode on True Crime The Zodiac. And then I found
the City of Napa, Todd Schulman, he's a detective for
the Napa Police Department. And then Pat McMahon, Deputy sheriff
for Napa County Sheriff's Department. Dennis and I met with
these two individuals, and of course they had just been
(08:17):
given grant money by the either the state or the
government in order to go back and look at some
cold cases, but they had indicated they had more evidence
in other cases that they were going to spend the
money there trying to solve those I wish I would
have known what those cases were and how they actually
disposed of those cases, whether or not they actively used
(08:40):
that money for what it was supposed to be used for.
Either way, they just kind of looked at us and said, no, well, okay,
have a nice day. So I basically gave him my
handwriting Rundown and then we were out the door and
never heard from them again. So they obviously weren't any
more interested in investigating this case. As then the San
(09:01):
Francisco PD was.
Speaker 5 (09:03):
That's crazy, since we're that law enforcement doesn't want to
go back and admit that they missed something if it's old,
you know, the cold case well, admitting that they did
a poor job, went back in the day when the
crime went down.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And I don't understand the resistance at all, because when
I went back, I was just a couple of years ago.
I did the friction ridge fingerprint class at the NAPA
Sheriff's Department, and I spoke with the gal that ran
the forensics and the finger print department, and she was
interested in taking a look at it. She asked her
(09:41):
boss or one of the cold case detectives, whether or
not we could look at the fingerprints in comparison to
the one the right thumb print that we have of
Jack on his military records, and she was shot down
with a hard no, Wow, why we're we're willing to
do it. We're willing to look at it like this
is no off your guys's balls. You're not having to
(10:02):
put out any resources for this like, literally, we're willing
to do this and we're just being shot down even
being given the evidence necessary to do it. And it
just blows my mind. But Hall and all kind of
the same response we got there from that project, right,
The FBI pretty much said the same thing to me.
Nobody else is going to do this. No, no, and we
(10:23):
don't have the resources. Okay, so I've done it, Now
what are we going to do with it? Really? So
this brings us back to April nine, April nineteenth of
nineteen ninety two. Jack is at a fat family gathering
for easta Easter. We don't see Nora and Charles in
these pictures, there's no mention of them. This again, is
(10:45):
this year that Jack and Nora are separated. Nora is
back in California with Charles and Jack is in Texas
basically at his mom's house. So we see pictures of
Flova's house on the far right over here, this is
the one on Shady Oaks, and then Chubb's place in
sagein and this is probably approximately forty five minutes from Dale, Texas,
(11:05):
which I believe is where the Shady Oaks house is.
And Mason in.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
The third photo who's the.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Man that says I think it says Scott. So Granny
and Scott Chubb's House, Easter nineteen ninety two, Texas.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Okay, and Scott is what relation?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
I want to say that's Chubbs's son, and I won't.
And I think that Chubbs, I mean, I'm not sure
if it is Flova's brother. He looks about to be
Jack's age, so I'm wondering if he's a cousin. And
maybe Gary or one of the family members that reach
out to me every now and again is watching this
episode and I'll be able to tell us who who
(11:45):
these individuals are in play. I thought Chubbs was was
Chuck who died, but it turns out I had them confused.
So Chubbs is different than Chuck. Chuck is Jack's brother
who died and we read his eulogy not too long ago.
In the present, we do have another Ice seventy murder.
On May seventh of nineteen ninety two, Sarah Blessing and
(12:07):
Saint Louis, Missouri at a strip mall gift shop in
broad daylight. Witnesses confirmed sighting in Wichita, and the ballistics
confirmed that all of the Ice seventy murders are connected
by the by the bullets to be the same killer,
so we know it is the same person that's hopping
around doing this. We do see an envelope for Nora's
(12:29):
Hearnce where the address of Sunrise Avenue has been crossed out,
and now it has the Saint Patrick Court and Citrus Heights,
which is where she is at at the time. This
address has not been established for Jacket based on any
of the information I have, So again this confirms the breakup.
Let's see. Okay, so the Patrick Saint Patrick Court turns
(12:53):
out to have been Dennis's address. So this envelope is
coming from the law offices of Racy Esterbrook, and it
shows that he's a personal injury and criminal law attorney,
but I don't know what business Nora has with him
at this time. Then we hop back over to Texas
and we see Jack at a reunion in Peacock, Texas
on July of ninety two. This is where we see
(13:15):
Chubbs up here in the left hand picture. Where's my Oh,
there you are. Chubbs is up here in this left
hand side of the picture, and we have Jack over
here on the right side. I noted his barrel chested
body frame here because as we climb into nineteen ninety six,
it is one of the witness's statements in regards to
(13:36):
a possible suspect with John Benny Ramsay. But we see
the weight that Jack has put on, so Jack has
supposedly only finished eighth grade. So I'm not sure how
he's at this reunion, whether it's Chubbs's reunion, But he
seems to be familiar with all the individuals, so he
notates Jake and Bill Peacock reunion, and then Jake and
(14:00):
Bill again over here, so he knows some of these people,
and we see Jack standing behind him right there. He
knows these individuals, so maybe he did go to the
school with them, But again his records show that he
only finished up to eighth grade, so I don't know
what kind of reunion this would be.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Peacock.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Peacock, Texas is not that big. As a matter of fact,
Jack listed in one of these pictures up here, we
can see that the whole downtown had what looked like
four businesses but huge so it said one store was
left open two days a week. Second hand in antique
(14:40):
in Peacock, Texas, reunion. G A Bradford's Widow has A
store was a grocery until Ga died in nineteen ninety one,
and now it literally has a population of about one
hundred and twenty five people in this entire town almost
like just basically dwindling down to nothingness. Get it. There's
(15:00):
no stores, there's no gas stations, there's no nothing here.
It looks like.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Now and.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Right, not even a McDonald's. You got to drive ten
miles in the snow, Starbucks appear right, I'm dying laughing.
So I had my grandkids this last weekend, and my
granddaughter was saying to me, she goes, you know, Nana,
if if you let this thing time out, and she's
(15:30):
talking about the TV, Netflix, anything streaming. Basically she said,
if you don't catch it and press that you want
to continue, it will actually kick you completely out and
then you have to log all the way back in
and go all the way back to where you were
and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And I
felt myself having that five mile in the snow, barefoot
walk conversation with her. But it went something like this,
(15:51):
I'm like girl back on my day we could turn
the TV on and it would stay on all day long.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
And now you've watched and it's a joke.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Well, your TV, I think, even senses when you are
in the room and when you're not, and we'll literally
literally like a computer, go to sleep on your butt.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I think I think that there is evidence of the
Samsung Smart TV's for sure that you can do that.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, yeah, and that's what I have. Lucky me. Woo.
I know I have one too.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Yeah, but I didn't even discover that until I'd already
bought it. So I was like, well, right.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
But it's a plasma, it's about twenty years old.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Oh yeah, yours isn't timing out on you. You can turn
it on, it's gonna.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Stay on the master bedroom.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
But that that's things that our children are never gonna
know of, you know. And you turn a TV on
and the TV stays on.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
What mine?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Mine likes to also time out at two hours for
whatever the reason. So if I don't grab the remote
to attempt to turn it to, you know, stop it
from timing out, it'll give me a sixty second counter.
And if I don't find that remote quick enough, everything
shuts off. Cool it's control, right, and it's literally more busy.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It's saying worse farther than you are, or we know
better what's good for you than you do.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Well, and they make it out to be something that's good,
but in reality it's not.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
One is learning us right now, he says, it's a setting.
You can change it.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I still think that they still can. They still know right,
even if the setting is off.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah. Well, Jack seems to be awfully busy this particular year,
and how he's traveling and how he's getting around, I
am not quite sure. I know that he was fighting
for his disability still at this point, but now we
see him in a plane and he writes on the
back of it Loon Lake eight twenty two ninety two,
(18:07):
altitude thirty five thousand feet. Now, I like to bring
this one up because this is something that Dbee Cooper
did when he called out Tacoma and the Air Force
base in dB Cooper, he stated they were at twenty
six thousand feet and he knew that a location of
Tacoma Lake. So to see this picture, which of course
(18:27):
you can kind of barely tell it, but there's the
lake right dead center of the picture. He's at and
he knows how he knows. I don't know, because I'm
pretty sure they don't have those nifty screens on the
back of the seats for you to stare at to
see where you're flying, like we got to see when
we were going to Ireland, and it told you your altitude,
it told you how fast you were going, how many
(18:47):
miles you've gone, and how many miles till you get there.
I'm pretty sure in nineteen ninety two they didn't have that,
but somehow jacknaw at thirty five thousand feet. Let's see, Yeah,
Lake Tacoma at twenty thousand feet is what Dbe Cooper said.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
Near the.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Air Force base, which was another thing that he had quoted.
And Loon Lake was that lake in specific that Dennis
talked about that in nineteen eighty early nineteen eighties, Jack
would take him and his friend and drop him off
and be gone for days and week at a time.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
So yeah, now except towards Tahoe, right.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I want to say, well, let's see Loon You can
see it right here, so yeah, it looks like it
might be up fifty because you're going towards South Lake Tahoe, right,
there and here's lake. Yeah, it's about two hours from Sacramento.
(19:51):
So again I believe that this picture that he's quoting
the thirty five thousand feet over Loon Lake indicates he's
coming into or leaving out of California. So I'm not
exactly sure if this is coming in or if this
is leaving. But we do show a picture where he
states that he's visiting Dennis Charles at Dennis's house on
(20:12):
Saint Patrick Court. We just talked about that address in
Citrus Heights summer of nineteen ninety two. Though it didn't
give me a precise month, we know that this also
again confirms that Jack and Nora are not together. And
I wanted to emphasize something. I have two sets of
diaries for Nora, one for nineteen ninety three, which is
(20:35):
this going to talk about this move into Arizona, and
one for nineteen ninety six, and I found it rather
odd that these were the only two years that Jack
would have kept if he was keeping her diaries. But
two of these, both of these relate to or are
indicators of upcoming crimes and things that have occurred. So
(20:56):
this is says the year of nineteen ninety three, but
it's actually in ending with November first, and it says
Jack and Nora gets back together in California and she
returns to Texas with Jack per her diary, and they
returned to Texas by November fourth. We do see a
cable bill that Jack is paying from August through February
(21:17):
of nineteen ninety three, which indicates that he is at
the Shady Oaks lot in Texas with Flova. So all
of that stuff is coinciding, and now at this point
in time we see Jack and Nora getting back together.
That brings us to our first murder in Phoenix, Arizona,
and the reason why I indicate that it's interesting that
(21:40):
nineteen ninety three was a year of her diary that
he kept, because it really tracks where they are going
and what they're up to. But this murder is probably
another one of those gruesome ones like Black Dahlia. It
was a twenty two year old, It was in a park,
she took a bike ride. The bike is missed. It says,
(22:05):
I don't know why I put in their reason for
pointing out a bike. But South Carolina murders, California and
another Arizona murder all included bikes. The headless body was
found in a park south of Cactus Road, which is
like I indicated the bisection that we saw in Elizabeth
Short and the Lipstick and I forty five murders with
(22:25):
partial bones being found in graves of other bodies. The
head was found in a stretch of the canal about
two miles south of where her body was found the canal.
See this is why I pay Oh my god, I
know again we have the headless boy of Walsh, right,
we have another headless individual, and schools are being found here,
(22:50):
there and everywhere. And we've got don Alasa's yeah, found
on eighty and twenty. So it seems to be something
that that's exactly why I pulled this in, and the
fact that they're getting ready to move to Arizona screams volumes,
wait till we get into that. Information also shows that
the abdomen and chest were cut open, which again that's
(23:12):
more Elizabeth Short stuff. I put in here to research
Buffalo Bill. I know it's another movie, but for whatever reason,
there always seems to be some media play in whatever's
going on. The newspaper reads.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
So I want you guys to watch this weekend real
quick Snake Guys from that. I think it's nineteen ninety
six movie with Nicholas Cage called Snake As I watched
it last night, if everybody's.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Been talking about it all over social.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Media, and it does tell a lot, so just stick
that in there before I forget.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Okay, Hello, yep, we lost you? What did you say?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Watch what Snake Guys?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Was it just me the lost everybody?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
I think she lost hers again. Everything started spinning. Even
my own PowerPoint presentation went blank and was spinning like
everything was buffering on my end. So yeah, I missed it,
he says, I hear everyone. Okay, go ahead, lindsay sorry.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
So Snake Guys is thank you. I think it's from
nineteen ninety six and it had the main character is
Nicholas Cage in his younger days and it's very telling
about things that are happening now. So yeah, yeah, it's
a good, thank good watch for this weekend if y'all
don't have anything to watch.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Snake Guys. All right, all right, So the newspaper on this,
gal angel Lebrosso reads, was beheaded and disemboweled after she
left her uh Northwest Phoenix apartment for nightly bike ride
through Cave Creek Park. Slain was one of the valley's
most gruesome killing. It has never been solved. Angela's body
was found on her twenty second birthday on a bike
(25:04):
trail near Cactus Road in Interstate seventeen. Her abdomen and
chest had been cut open. Her head was a found
was found eleven days later in the Arizona Canal between
Dunlap and Peoria Avenues. Her walkman and her purple twenty
one speed Diamondback bike have never been found. I put
in here I think that this was this could have
(25:25):
been a murder that Jack committed while scouting out the
next place that they're going to move to. As we've
seen in so many other situations, Jack moves goes to
wherever it is, just like Dennis said, goes to wherever
it is that he's scouting the new place on his own,
does his own reconnaissance, if you will, to figure out
where they're going to live. I believe that it is
(25:46):
possible he commits one murder at that point and then
comes back to get the family, and while he's gone
and they're heavily looking for a killer. In regards to
this body, that's back in the other state. They have
no idea to even be looking at Jack because he
is not even around while the investigations going on. And
within three to six months he shows back up and
moves into that area.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
They found the bike. You think the killer wouldn't want
to take the bike, it would be stupid.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Well, I want to show you here real quick. And
I mean, the coincidences are fairly heavy when it comes
to Jack in these cases. But I believe at some
point when we get here into into Arizona with the family,
that Charles ends up getting a bike. And I wish
(26:35):
Nora had like marked what kind of bike and color
it was?
Speaker 4 (26:42):
Smoking again right, Well, you know there's a bike theory
in the John Bennet case too.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
There's a bike theory.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
I don't know if y'all went down that yeah that
you know they got bikes for that Christmas. But there's
some speculation as to uh, what's his name, her brother
riding the bike the night before down the road. But
then there's like other witnesses that say there that he did,
(27:13):
and then there's other witnesses say that he didn't and
the bike was uh. But then if they turned around
and said no, he didn't get this bike for Christmas.
It was like kind of like a lot of back
and forth in the in the case files as far
as like the family saying that he rode the bike,
or he didn't ride the bike, or he did get
a new bike, or was it you know he'd already
(27:33):
had that bike from his birthday. It was Yeah, like.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
They're necessarily involved with the murder, just just them talking
about a bike.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Yeah, us, Yes, why would why would it be important
to put out story different stories about.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
This bike right exactly? Yeah, and the night before? Who
cares about the night before? What we need to figure
out is what happened the night up? Yeah. Nah. And honestly,
there's several of these cases where the bike has been
laid on top of the victims. The bike has been
found you know X amount of feet away, same as
(28:15):
the cars in some of these cases, you know, blocks
to miles away. The suspect has taken the vehicle and
left it someplace else. And so basically, her bike going
missing just means it wasn't found around the body, but
she was known to have left off on her bike
to go for a ride that night, and the bike
is nowhere to be found. Now, this other murder was
(28:36):
a body found in West Pittsburgh and it shows well,
the obituary shows November tenth is the date of death,
So I'm assuming that it would have had to have
been somewhere between the first and tenth of November, which
I think We've got Jack pretty solid back in Texas
with Nora at this point in time, and if anything,
he's hopping back and forth to Arizona, which we have
(28:57):
some evidence of that as well. So I don't think
that this one was necessarily involved with these cases. But
Sandy Betts did think that this was possibly committed by
the Zodiac. Here's that evidence that we were talking about.
So I'm making an assumption when I say this only
because the expiration date on this particular it's a security
(29:19):
guard provisional certificate for it's issued by Arizona Department of
Public Safety, and it's issued to Jack Terrence. Now, of
course it says five of ninety two on it is
the revision date of this particular provisional license, but it
looks to be it looks to me that it has
probably a two year it's good for two years because
(29:42):
it expires on January twenty fifth of nineteen ninety five,
which would indicate that Jack is a has at least
applied for it by January twenty fifth of nineteen ninety five,
which also means well, and again this you know, playing
with these dates a little bit here and there, is
that he probably had to do a background check, He
probably had to put in an application. There were probably
(30:03):
things that had to occur in order to obtain this
particular provisional license, which suggests that Jack has been frequenting
the Arizona area. Either way, we know that he's working
in Arizona by March of ninety five as a security guard,
at least based on the information that I have, So
it would suggest that yes, Jack has been frequenting Arizona
(30:25):
more than we know. On January twenty sixth of nineteen
ninety three, sixty three year old Dana E. Empringham on
the twenty six thousand block of Maple Wood, Spring, Texas,
Montgomery County. It's stated that he was widowed at the
time of his death. He used a wheelchair to get
around due to a leg injury, but was not confined
to it. He operated a gun shop out of his
(30:47):
home named DK Enterprise.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Inc.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
And witnesses saw suspect running from the house to brown
Mercury cougar type vehicle and leave with the lights off.
The law enforcement believes it was raw So may not
even be related here to what we have going on
with Jack, but I have it in here because it's
another Texas murder and Jack is right next door basically,
(31:11):
and that brings us back to Nora's diary. We had
some more interesting reveals in this. It does state that
Jack had talked with his mother about moving to Phoenix, Arizona.
So this is the first mention on February twentieth of
Jack actually speaking to his mom about it. On oh yeah,
(31:34):
so I notated that it's interesting that this woman that's beheaded, disemboweled,
and all of these other things is exactly where Jack
is talking about on February twentieth of moving to Now
he is stating that he wants to move to Phoenix, Arizona,
and that is his goal, that's what he's looking at.
But we know that they eventually end up in Flagstaff,
(31:56):
and this entry February twenty six is Jack was to
leave next week to Phoenix and me stay here and
take care of Granny. Red and find us a place.
So that confirms what Dennis says that Jack would leave
on his own to go look for wherever it is
they were going to move to, and then come back
and move the family with him. Nineteen ninety three to
(32:18):
nineteen ninety seven, ancestry dot com shows Jack and Comanche, Texas,
which is thirty miles from Gorman, Texas. But obviously he
is in Arizona from ninety three to ninety five per
his own records and Nora's diary. So ancestry dot com
can be wrong sometimes.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Well I found it to be wrong a lot too.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Well, and you know they can only piece back together
so much.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
I mean, well, you know that's why it's always good
to use multiple sources.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Right, right, let's see, Okay, So here in this particular entry,
I guess after Jack had spoke to his mother about
moving to Phoenix, Arizona, he asked if she wanted to go,
and then of course they I guess they're already recording
(33:10):
people on the phone. So this is interesting because it's
something Dennis used to do. He's recorded law enforcement several
times in their conversations, but they recorded Flova, Jack's mom
talking to one of her friends in regards to this move,
and the friend is convinced or at least trying to
convince Flova that they're trying to take your house or
trying to take your money, They're trying to make you move. They're,
(33:32):
you know, basically was conspiring to take all that Flova
had and got Flova very upset. So she's having this
conversation and it's being recorded by Jack and Nora so
they can go back and listen to what she's saying
to her friends, which that's just ekey, that's good, And
this is actually ninety this is nineteen ninety three, you guys.
(33:54):
Phone calls are being recorded. The response to this the
is what absolutely floors me, because this is just that
we know that Jack's not rational, and why else would
I have him paid for the Zodiac Killer. But this
entry of the diary goes on to say that they
headed over to Nell's house, the woman that was trying
(34:14):
to convince Jack's mom that he was trying to take
advantage of her, and I was blown away to see it,
says says. She must have known we were coming because
all their cars were there, but no one answered the door.
It was a good thing. She didn't answer her door.
It was Jack was ready to put a fist in
(34:35):
her face. Jack took his gun. That's how angry he
was to an old lady's house. That is so irrational.
You're going to go to an old lady's was with
a gun because you didn't like the conversation she had
with your mother.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Yeah, well, it just shows you the easiest tick that
would trigger him exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Yeah. I can't imagine taking my gun anywhere out of anchor.
I mean, it's just not something you do.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
And it shows you she may have been onto.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Something I think she was.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
Yeah, if you knew it was falsehood, he wouldn't be
that worried about it, although you could still be bad.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
But if you knew something it was true, then he would.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Be really bad, right, yeah, right, And then to respond
in that kind of manner is exactly what we would
expect to see out of somebody of the likes of
the Zodiac Killer, very very hot headed, very Yeah. Like
you said, a simple tick just sends him flying. So
imagine every time Nora left him and we see all
(35:44):
this upticks and murders, you know, people getting killed left
and right. So here is the other entry about them
preparing to actually move into Arizona. They're talking about picking
up Charles's records from school and getting everything going. Her
son in law, Rick, Mary's husband is coming into town
to help them with this move. So just basically again
(36:07):
is confirming this forward motion into Arizona. And then on
March eleventh, nineteen ninety three, Jack and Nora moved to
flag Staff. Now, of course Flagstaff is just where they
made it to. That was not their intentions. And the
diary goes back and forth talking about whether or not
they're going to stay, whether not they're going to move
(36:27):
on to Phoenix. Like I think this one says small
rider truck, put a deposit on it. We are moving
to Phoenix in a week or so when Rick gets here.
So here's this motion for Phoenix, Arizona. But by the
time they get there, they ended up actually staying in Flagstaff.
So it looks it says. Nora indicates in her diary
(36:49):
that they're looking for a place to buy again. Jack
doesn't show any signs of having a job or any income.
I don't know where the money is supposed to be
coming from. March thirteenth, there at seven am in Demi,
New Mexico with a friend with one of their friends,
Jim Sherbet on Highway one eighty. It looks like Nora
has relatives and uncle Henry that lives in Springville, Arizona,
(37:13):
and relatives Pia and Pete and cousin which are cousins,
and aunt Babe it says in Flint flag Staff. So
on top of everything else, it turns out that they
have family there. That's probably going to be easier for
them to move into that area. And I believe what
she was complaining about was the cost of rents, which
(37:33):
did make any sense because they go from saying they
wanted looking for a house to buy to you know,
rent is too high, and so I don't know if
they're just cross referencing the meaning of rent as a
house payment or because some people say my rent when
really it's their house payment. Yeah. Now, so she.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
Was worried about money, she would have definitely, you know,
wrote about that if she if there was some indication
of not having money or being stressed about money, and
she would definitely have that in there. If he didn't
have a job and he didn't have income.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Well, and it does go on to talk about that
is in some of these other entries as far as,
like I said, they're going back and forth, going, don't, don't.
Didn't want to go to Phoenix all afternoon, but now
checked out some places and drove around the town. Once
we made up our minds we were going to stay.
Took the truck back this morning. So like they are
back and forth, back and forth over it and money
(38:28):
does seem to be a concern. Got a Phoenix paper
and looked in it. After we ate. We sat there
a while. Oh, anyways, I wanted to go back because
I didn't finish off Charles. I think this is the
entry where it talks about Charles having gotten a bike,
and of course they're in Arizona already at this point,
(38:50):
which is interesting. But it says Green Mountain Sport SPC
hard Rock. That's a little too much information. I do
not believe that she put that in here, but I
would have to go back to find it.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
So badged out to Phoenix.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
I think it's pretty close. Yeah, I don't feel like
it was too far. I don't know that I ever Actually.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
I would say thirty to thirty minutes to an hour, dokay.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I just know that in like I said, all of
these entries are them going back and forth. So you know,
at the top here it says, trying to decide if
we were going to stay here in flag because the
rent seemed to be too high and our feelings were
we should go to Phoenix after all. Nonetheless, so it
sounds to me like what they're saying is Flagstaff's rent
(39:41):
was too high and that they should be going to
Phoenix after all. But then at the very ending of
this it says Jack said, we are not going anywhere.
We are going to stay right here. She says, I
was excited once again because I really didn't want to
go to Phoenix all afternoon.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
So more expensive than Phoenix, That's what.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
I would have thought.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
But maybe flags it's obvious that he's avoiding Phoenix for
a reason.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Well, but Phoenix may be more urban, right, I mean
Flagstaff might be more could have been yeah, yeah, it
could have been a ritty area. I don't know. At
any rate. We see Jack here again in his security
guard uniform, and this is when he begins working for
(40:30):
Arizona University. Now, Dennis's book said to us that then
they moved to Washington, Arizona, Texas, and in nineteen ninety
eight they moved back to Sacramento. But what I actually
found is that they moved to Texas. So obviously Nora
and Jack get back together. They moved to Texas, then
to Arizona, and then we're going to find information that
(40:52):
shows that Jack ships Nora off to Washington when they
leave Arizona because he goes back to Texas to take
care of his mom and Nora and Flova do not
get along. So a little bit of an inconsistency with
where they went during this timeframe from Dennis's book, But
I think that we've laid out enough information here to
show exactly where they've been. I did find a whole
(41:13):
bunch of cursive writing, which is kind of a task
for me to have to go back to. Also some
typewritten matters, but these are all letters that were sent
to Jack's mom or the hide tanning recipe. This one
is ask your instructor, and I want to say that
this was, Yeah, this is in Flagstaff at Arizona five
(41:35):
twenty two of ninety three, So I'm not sure if
he's taking a course because it does say ask your
instructor on top, but it also looks like he's complaining
about some issues. Says cannot load the general Ledger program,
tried numerous ways, et cetera. I'm using dr JOSS five
point zero but tried ms DOS three point three. Please
(41:57):
either repair, replace, or tell me what I am doing wrong.
So it doesn't sound like it's a note to a professor, right,
sounds more like it's a technical computer issue with possibly
what he's doing for work. I'm not sure either way,
So a whole bunch.
Speaker 4 (42:14):
Of use that notepad that was supposed to be intended
for students.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Right, So use the space below for immediate personal help
from your instructor. To ensure a prompt reply to your
consultation request, please make your written request as brief and
clear as possible. If you've written before about the same question,
please be sure to enclose copies of all past correspondence
on the subject in the event you have future questions.
(42:41):
We are closing another copy of this form.
Speaker 4 (42:44):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yeah, I couldn't really tell where that is, but we
do see that he's doing some type of computer work
or he is taking a class in computers either way,
and maybe something he's doing at Arizona University. Who knows, Yes,
there's a.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
Lot of different craziness going on in these universities too.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Right right, Well, I want to say that at the
time that I was investigating the anthrax stuff, that there
was indication of research, which I will get back to
once I make a second round on this stuff. There
was research being done on I think, different strains of anthrax,
and it was being held at Arizona University. And that
(43:27):
was one of the reasons why I thought that Jack
and I want to say, Hemphil it was his name
was one of the individual's name in the anthrax cases.
His manuscript on anthrax and weaponizing anthrax had been reported stolen,
and I want to think that that was out of
Arizona University as well. So was all of this happening
(43:49):
at the same time Jack was acting as a security
guard where he'd have access to all these different locations
because it's his job to keep things secure, which means
he would have keys to get into these things, right yeah, yeah,
some some very interesting.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
And they would trust him with a lot of different things.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
Right. Here we have Gary. Now I'm a little confused.
I threw these pictures in here. It says Gary Lee Flagstaff,
nineteen ninety four, now, it's not impossible that Gary visited
visited more than one year during summertime. But some of
the date sequences that I have is April seventh of
(44:30):
nineteen ninety three, Gary comes to visit from Sacramento by motorcycle.
On April ninth of ninety three, Jack and Nora go
to the Grand Canyon with Gary on Easter Sunday, April
eleventh of nineteen ninety three. I need to go back
and find those pictures because I'm pretty sure that's going
to put him back in Texas. During that time, he
always seems to go home for Easter. And then April twelfth,
(44:52):
nineteen ninety three, Gary leaves to go back to Sacramento.
But then we see these pictures here and this is
the house in Flagstaff, and we can see the cream
colored van here in the in the left hand side
of the picture, which that was actually reported. That was
a type of vehicle that was reported in one of
the crimes that we've discussed. I don't know if the
timeframes are correct for this or not, but clearly Jack
(45:15):
and Nora had that cream colored van and we got
to see it in we looked said Metro City. We
saw the cream colored van, so maybe that was the
same trip to the Grand Canyon. Either way, I need
to go back and find the nineteen ninety three easter picks.
But we see he's still, you know, traveling kind of
all over the place and people coming to visit him.
So I think that well that we made it through
(45:38):
all twenty slides. You guys, I'm actually fairly impressed. Is
there anything anybody would like to add or talk about, because.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
We've got it's pretty gal right, this is a little place.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Yeah, And I'm gonna send you some stuff on the
Arizona University. It's very interesting the history, and I'm curious
to go back in my history of that research and
see during that time.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Frame what I could find. Well, and it isn't another
coincidence that we had do Hers, professor out of Arizona
University take interest in Dennis and the Jacks Zodiac connection.
He even tried to tie himself to it because he
was in South Lake Tahoe purportedly during the time of
(46:31):
the Dona last stuff. But he was also I believe
what is technical ability was to be able to determine
what is being seen in pictures that's not so very
clear for others of us to pick up. So it
was almost as if.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
To say.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
He was an infiltrator, you know, That's kind of what
it felt like, because he did run off with a
lot of the negatives that Dennis had. He refused to
give some of those pictures back to Dennis. He claimed
he wanted to keep him for his book. But I've
been through his book and I didn't see any of
those negatives that that Dennis was asking for back. So, yeah,
(47:12):
why did he come into Dennis's life? I guess I
never really, you know, stood up and asked, you know,
how did you come across him? How? You know, how
did you guys get involved with each other? But he
had made several trips out here to California, and I
was in his presence and had spoken with him on
several occasions, and we had done some research together and
(47:32):
looking through Jack's stuff. So I do know who Stephen
Doohurst is. But again, he's coming out of Arizona University.
Is that a coincidence?
Speaker 5 (47:43):
The University of Northern Arizona is in Flagstaff, and Flagstaff
is really close to Greg Canyon and it is kind
of like a tourist town. There's the downtown has been
Uh it's a historical with U shot and it's right
along Route sixty six, says, so I could see why
(48:05):
Wrench might be high there.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, and we had the Phillip sixty six
map with the Zodiac cipher with Mount Diablo circled over
the top of it, so many connections back to Arizona
Constellation Mountains. I'm not sure if that one was in
New Mexico or Arizona, but Dennis talked about a story
(48:28):
Jack would tell that him and two other guys went
into the mountains, but only two people walked out, so
as if to say they killed one of the people
that was with them and the other two left.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Well, there's a lot of people that mission in that area,
in the in the in the canyon.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
Well, and we have too. So aside from the first
beheading that we saw on November eighth, we're going to
have another one while Jack is, you know, currently living
there in Arizona. Second second murder, same type of style.
I believe another beheading. We haven't gotten to it yet,
but it does kind of scream that hey, I'm here.
(49:16):
Are you still looking something up there?
Speaker 5 (49:18):
No one, No, I'm just reading about Blacks. Nineteen thirty,
Pluto was discovered from flaxtaf.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Oh my god, sixty six.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
That led it to it being a tourist.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
Gotcha, Well that would be and that would explain why
it was so expensive, especially if it's close to the
Grand Canyon. All right, well, we have our final seconds here.
As we time out, I want to thank you both
for being here. We are doing a pre record on Monday,
so if you guys are interested, it'll be at eleven
am our time. So everybody have a wonderful weekend and
(49:56):
we will see you next Friday.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Okay, maybe Monday. We'll see again Monday.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
Okay, I'll see you by. Take care guys.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Bye,
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