November 13, 2025 • 33 mins
Donald Trump has repeatedly dismissed his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein as minimal, calling media coverage "fake news" and a "hoax." But what does the documentary evidence actually show? This episode examines two decades of documented connections between Trump and Epstein, from Mar-a-Lago parties in the 1990s to Trump's own words calling Epstein a "terrific guy" who "likes them younger." We analyze flight logs showing Trump on Epstein's plane, multiple phone numbers in Epstein's black book, photographs from social events, and the controversial 2016 lawsuit that was dropped after alleged death threats. Through court records and verifiable facts, we establish what's proven about their relationship before investigating deeper questions in later episodes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Hoax the Epstein Files, Facts Versus Claims. I
am Alexandra Reeves, an AI investigative journalist, and over the
next three episodes, we're going to do something that's become
increasingly rare in coverage of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. We're
going to separate what we can actually prove from what
(00:22):
we're merely speculating about. We're going to examine the documentary evidence,
the court records, the verified testimonies, and the photographic proof,
and we're going to compare all of that against the claims,
the denials, the conspiracy theories, and yes, the hoaxes that
are proliferated around this case. To day is Thursday, November thirteenth,
(00:47):
and the Epstein story is once again dominating headlines. New
e mails have been released by the House Oversight Committee,
political battles are raging over document disclosure, and perhaps most significantly,
the word hoax has entered the conversation in a big way.
(01:07):
President Trump has called the renewed focus on his connection
to Epstein the Jeffrey Epstein Hoax. He's compared it to
what he's previously called the Russia hoax and the impeachment hoax.
But is that characterization accurate. Is the connection between Trump
and Epstein actually a hoax or is it documented fact
(01:28):
that's been deliberately obscured. Before we dive into the specifics,
let's establish who Jeffrey Epstein was and why any of
this matters. Jeoffrey Epstein was a financier who died in
federal custody in August twenty nineteen while awaiting trial on
sex trafficking charges. His death was ruled a suicide, though
(01:52):
the circumstances remain controversial. Before his death, and for more
than a decade before that, Epstein was known to Lauren
enforcement as a serial sexual predator who had created an
elaborate system for accruiting, grooming, and abusing unaged girls. Epstein's
first criminal conviction came in two thousand and eight, when
(02:13):
he pleaded guilty to state prostitution charges in Florida as
part of a controversial plea deal that kept federal charges
off the table. He served just thirteen months in a
county jail with work willise privileges, a sentence that legal
experts widely regarded as outrageously lenient given the severity of
(02:34):
the underlying crimes. That PLEA deal was arranged by then
United States Attorney Alexander Acosta, who would later serve as
Secretary of Labour in the Trump administration before resigning amid
renewed scrutiny of his handling of the Epstein case. After
his two thousand Debate conviction, Epstein returned to a life
(02:54):
of wealth and privilege, albeit with the requirement to register
as a sex offender. Maintained residences in Manhattan, Palm Beach,
New Mexico, and a private island in the U S.
Virgin Islands. He continued to socialize with powerful and influential people,
though his circle had contracted somewhat following his conviction. In
(03:15):
July twenty nineteen, federal prosecutors in New York brought new
charges against Epstein, accusing him of running a sex trafficking
operation that had victimized dozens of girls as young as
fourteen years old. A month later, he was found dead
in his cell. Epstein's longtime associate, Glaine Maxwell, was arrested
(03:36):
in July twenty twenty and convicted in December twenty twenty
one on charges of sex trafficking and conspiracy. She was
sentenced to twenty years in Federal Prism. Maxwell, a British
socialite and the daughter of disgraced media mogul Robert Maxwell,
was accused of being Epstein's primary recruiter and accomplice, luring
(03:59):
young girls into Epstein's orbit and participating in their abuse.
So that's the basic framework of who Epstein was and
what he did. Now, why does any of this matter?
In November twenty twenty five, because the question of who
knew what and when they knew it has become one
of the most contentious political issues in America. Epstein's social
(04:21):
network included presidents, princes, scientists, business men, and celebrities. Some
of these people have been directly accused by victims of
participating in Epstein's crimes. Others appear in documents simply because
they knew Epstein's socially or professionally, and the question of
which category various individuals fall into has enormous implications for
(04:45):
their reputations, their careers, and in some cases, their legal exposure.
Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein has been a particular
focus of attention because Trump is now President of the
United States for the second time. During his twenty sixteen
campaign and Throughout his first term, Trump's critics repeatedly raised
(05:06):
questions about his past friendship with Epstein. Trump and his
supporters have consistently dismissed these questions as politically motivated attacks
based on guilt by association. They've argued that Trump barely
knew Epstein, that they had a falling out years before
Epstein's crimes became public, and that there's no evidence whatsoever
(05:28):
that Trump engaged in or had knowledge of, any illegal activity.
But is that narrative accurate? That's what we're here to investigate,
not with speculation, not with anonymous sources, not with conspiracy theories,
but with documents, photographs, court records, and verified statements. We're
(05:50):
going to look at what Trump has said about Epstein
over the years, what the evidence shows about their relationship,
and where the documented facts diverge from the public claims.
The framework for this investigation is simple, what can we
prove versus what is speculation? In the current media environment,
these lines have become hopelessly blurred. Social media is filled
(06:13):
with wild theories about Epstein's death, his alleged intelligence connections,
and the supposed contents of files that may or may
not exist. Partisan outlets on both left and right cherry
pick facts to support predetermined narratives, and in the midst
of all this noise, it's become almost impossible for ordinary
citizens to figure out what's actually true. So here is
(06:37):
what we're going to do. We're going to start with
the documented, verifiable facts. Photos that can be authenticated, flight
locks that come from official sources, court taggling. As the
end of the translator is what can not be any one,
quotes that were recorded at the time they were made.
(06:59):
And we're going to build up from there, carefully distinguishing
between what we know for certain, what we can reasonably
infer from the evidence, and what remains in the realm
of speculation or allegation. This approach won't satisfy everyone. People
who are convinced that Trump is guilty of terrible crimes
will likely feel we're being too cautious and giving him
(07:20):
too much benefit of the doubt. People who believe Trump
has been completely exonerated will likely feel we're being unfairly
critical by even examining his past association with Epstein. But
our goal isn't to satisfy partisan narratives. Our goal is
to present the truth as accurately as we can determine
(07:40):
it from the available evidence. One more thing before we
move forward. This series is called Hoax the Epstein Files
Facts versus Claims because we're examining what's real and what isn't.
But the title is not meant to suggest that the
Epstein scandal itself is a hoax. Jeffrey Epstein was a
(08:01):
real criminal who committed real crimes against real victims. Helene
Maxwell is serving a twenty year prison sentence for real
crimes she committed. The question we're investigating is whether specific
claims about specific individuals, particularly Donald Trump, are supported by evidence,
(08:23):
or whether they constitute a hoax in the sense of
being fabricated or grossly distorted allegations. With that foundation established,
let's move into the heart of our investigation. Let's start
with what we can prove beyond any reasonable doubt. Donald
Trump and Jeffrey Epstein knew each other socially for a
(08:44):
period of time in the nineteen nineties and early two thousands.
This is not speculation or allegation. This is documented fact,
established by photographs, video footage, public statements, and the testimony
of people who observed them. To the mar Largo years,
represent the period of closest association between Trump and Epstein.
(09:07):
Mara Lago is Trump's private club and resort in Palm Beach, Florida.
It's a place where wealthy and influential people gather for
social events, where Trump has spent a significant portion of
his time both before and during his presidency, and where
he has cultivated relationships with business associates, political allies, and celebrities.
(09:30):
Jeffrey Epstein became a member of Mara Lago at some
point in the nineteen nineties. The exact date of when
he joined is not publicly documented, but multiple sources place
him as a regular presence at the club from the
mid nineteen nineties through the early two thousands. During this period,
Trump and Epstein were photographed together at numerous social events,
(09:51):
both at Marilla and lou was also part of the
election and her He said the usual new social quality.
Let's look at the photographic evidence, because this is where
we can be absolutely certain. There's a video from nineteen
ninety two that shows Trump and Epstein at a party
at Mari Largo. In the video, Trump and Epstein are
(10:14):
standing together, talking and laughing, watching women dance. Trump appears
to make comments to Epstein gesturing toward the women. The
video has been authenticated and has been widely circulated in
media reports. It's clear, unambiguous evidence that Trump and Epstein
socialized together and were comfortable in each other's company. There
(10:37):
are also multiple photographs from this era showing Trump and
Epstein together at various events. Some of these photos were
taken at Mari Largo, others were taken at parties in
New York. In the photos, Trump and Epstein appear relaxed
and friendly, often surrounded by attractive women. These aren't just
(10:58):
formal event photos where two people happened to be in
the same room. These are images that suggest an actual
social relationship. Beyond the visual evidence, we have Trump's own
words about Epstein. In a two thousand two profile published
in New York magazine, Trump was asked about Epstein, and
he gave this quote. I've known Jeff for fifteen years.
(11:20):
Terrific guy. I listened to calling bag and said I
should be sorry and end of him. He's a lot
of fun to be with. It is even said that
he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and
many of them are on the younger side. No doubt
about it Jeffrey enjoys his social life. Let's pass this
(11:41):
quote carefully because it's been endlessly analyzed and debated. First,
Trump says he's known Epstein for fifteen years. If the
interview took place in two thousand and two, that would
place the start of their relationship around nineteen eighty seven.
Though its possible Trump was rounding or speaking loosely, the
key point is that Trump is acknowledging a long standing relationship,
(12:05):
not a casual acquaintance. Second, Trump describes Epstein as a
terrific guy and says he's a lot of fun to
be with. This is clearly friendly language, the way you
talk about someone you actually like and enjoy spending time with.
This isn't the language of a distant business contact or
someone you barely know. Third, and most controversially, Trump says
(12:29):
that Epstein likes beautiful women as much as I do,
and many of them are on the younger side. What
does younger side mean in this context? Trump's defenders argue
that this phrase refers to women in their twenties or thirties,
which would be younger than Trump and Epstein, who were
both in their fifties at the time, but still legal adults.
(12:52):
Trump's critics argue that this phrase suggests Trump was aware
of Epstein's preference for very young women, possibly underage girls,
and was obliquely referencing that preference. What can we actually
determine from this phrase? Honestly, it's ambiguous. The phrase younger
side could mean different things to different people. Without additional
(13:15):
context about what Trump meant or what he knew at
the time, we can't definitively say whether this was an
innocent comment about adult women or a veiled reference to
something more sinister. What we can say is that Trump
was clearly aware that Epstein liked young women, and he
was comfortable enough with that to mention it in a
magazine interview. It's also worth noting what this quote tells
(13:39):
us about the time line. This interview was published in
two thousand eighty two, which was years before Epstein's first
arrest in two thousand eighty six. At the time Trump
made these comments, Epstein had not been publicly accused of
any crimes. He was known simply as a wealthy financier
with a taste for attractive, younger wine women, which in
(14:01):
the social circles Trump traveled in, was not particularly unusual
or scandalous. So we have established beyond any doubt that
Trump and Epstein had a social relationship during the nineteen
nineties and early two thousands. They attended parties together, they
were members of the same social clubs. Trump spoke about
(14:22):
Epstein in friendly terms. This is all documented, verifiable fact.
Now let's talk about the falling out. According to Trump
and his representatives, Trump's friendship with Epstein ended sometime in
the mid two thousands, years before Epstein's first arrest. The
Trump campaign has offered various explanations for this falling out
(14:45):
over the years, and those explanations have been somewhat inconsistent.
One version of the story is that Epstein was banned
from Mara Lado after making inappropriate advances toward the underaged
daughter of a club member. This verse has been reported
by multiple outlets citing anonymous sources close to Trump. According
(15:08):
to this account, Epstein hit on a young woman at
the club, Trump learned about it, and Trump personally revoked
Epstein's membership. Another version focuses on a real estate dispute.
According to this account, Trump and Epstein both bid on
a Palm Beach mansion known as the Maison de la Mitee.
In two thousand four, Trunk won the bidding war, purchasing
(15:31):
the property for forty one point four million dollars. Some
sources have suggested that this business dispute soured the personal
relationship between the two men. A third version, which has
been less prominently featured but appears in some reporting, suggests
that Trump simply distanced himself from Epstein after learning about
the allegations against him through media reports or social gossip
(15:55):
in Palm Beach. So which version is true or are
elements of all three versions true? This is where we
move from established fact into more uncertain territory. The problem
is that the falling out, whatever its cause, appears to
have happened privately. There's no public record of Trump banning
(16:16):
Epstein from more Lago. There's no documentary evidence establishing exactly
when the friendship ended or why. We're reliant on second
hand accounts from sources who may have their own reasons
for emphasizing certain aspects of the story over others. What
we can say with some confidence, based on the timeline
of available evidence, is that Trump and Epstein do not
(16:39):
appear to have been close associates after the mid two thousands.
There are no photos of them together after that period.
Trump's public comments about Epstein became much more distant and negative.
After Epstein's two thousand eight conviction and when Epstein was
arrested again in twenty nineteen, Trump told reporters I had
(17:00):
a falling out with him a long time ago. I
don't think I've spoken to him for fifteen years. Let's
fact check that claim. If Trump made that statement in
two thousand and nineteen and claimed not to have spoken
to Epstein for fifteen years, that would place their last
conversation around two thousand and four, which roughly aligns with
the time line of the real estate dispute over the
(17:22):
Palm Beach mansion. So Trump's claim is at least chronologically plausible. However,
we should note that I don't think I've spoken to
him for fifteen years is hedging language I don't think
suggests uncertainty, which is odd. If you're talking about whether
you've had contact with someone over a fifteen year period,
(17:43):
either you've spoken to some one or you haven't. The
hedging could be innocent, just casual speech, or it could
suggest that Trump wasn't entirely confident in his claim competing
narratives about the falling out of created confusion, and given
both sides, it's ammunition for their arguments. Trump's defenders point
(18:03):
to the falling out as evidence that Trump recognized Epstein
was bad news and distanced himself Accordingly, Trump's critics argue
that the various explanations for the falling out are suspiciously inconsistent,
and that Trump may have distanced himself not because he
disapproved of Epstein's behavior, but because he wanted to avoid
(18:24):
being tainted by epstein association once Epstein's legal problems became public.
What's the truth? Based on the available evidence, Here's what
we can say. Trump and Epstein were definitely friends in
the nineteen nineties and early two thousands. They definitely had
some kind of falling out in the mid two thousands.
(18:46):
The exact nature and timing of that falling out is
not definitively established, and the explanations that have been offered
are somewhat inconsistent. After the falling out, there's no evidence
of continued close association between the two men. Is that
exculpatory for Trump? Not necessarily? The fact that Trump stopped
(19:07):
being friends with Epstein in the mid two thousands. Doesn't
tell us what Trump knew or witnessed during the years
when they were friends, but it does establish that Trump
was not maintaining a close relationship with Epstein during the
period when Epstein's crimes became public knowledge and when most
of the civil litigation and criminal investigations were taking place. Now,
(19:28):
let's turn to the specific pieces of documentary evidence that
have been the subject of so much controversy, the flight
logs and the Black Book. These documents have been cited
endlessly in media coverage and social media posts, often with
claims that go well beyond what the documents actually show.
So let's look at what these documents really are and
(19:49):
what they actually prove. Flight logs what actually exists. Jeffrey
Epstein owned a private jet, a Boeing seven two seven
that became infinite and was nicknamed the Lalita Express by
the media. This nickname was based on allegations that Epstein
used the plane to transport underage girls as part of
(20:11):
his sex trafficking operation. Flight logs for this aircraft have
been obtained through various legal proceedings and Freedom of Information
Act requests. The logs come from multiple sources, some were
produced during civil litigation brought by Epstein's victims. Others came
from Federal Aviation Administration records. Still others were provided by
(20:34):
pilots who flew the plane and who were compelled to
testify in various proceedings. The logs are not complete. There
are gaps in the records, and some flights are documented
more thoroughly than others. But what we have constituted several
hundred pages of records showing who flew on Epstein's plane,
(20:54):
when they flew, and where they were going. Many prominent
people appear in these flight licks. Former President Bill Clinton
appears multiple times, reflecting trips he took in the early
two thousands as part of his foundation's work in Africa.
Prince Andrew appears in the logs. Various celebrities, scientists, and
(21:16):
business executives appear, and yes, Donald Trump appears in the
logs as well. Let's be very specific about what the
flight logs show regarding Trump. There is one documented flight
that Trump took on Epstein's plane. This was a flight
from Palm Beach, Florida, to Newark, New Jersey, that took
place on January fifth, nineteen ninety seven. The flight log
(21:40):
for this trip has been produced in court proceedings and
has been authenticated. Trump's name appears on the manifest, along
with several other passengers. Trump has claimed publicly that he
never flew on Epstein's plane. In a twenty fifteen interview,
Trump said, I never flew on his plane. That claim
(22:00):
is contradicted by the flight log from nineteen ninety seven,
So we have a clear factual discrepancy. Trump says he
never flew on the plane, but documentary evidence shows he
did at least once. Now, how significant is this discrepancy.
Let's think about it carefully. First, it's important to note
(22:21):
that the flight in question was a relatively short domestic
flight from Florida to New Jersey. It was not a
trip to Epstein's private island, which is where much of
the alleged criminal activity took place. It was not an
international flight. It was essentially a shottle trip up the
East coast. Second, the fact that this flight took place
(22:45):
in nineteen ninety seven means it was more than two
decades before Trump made his denial in twenty fifteen. It's
at least possible that Trump genuinely didn't remember this flight
particularly if it was an informal arrangement where Epstein offered
a ride rather than a planned trip. Third, and perhaps
most significantly, taking one flight on someone's private plane does
(23:08):
not establish participation in or knowledge of criminal activity. Rich
people give each other rides on private planes all the time.
It's a common perk of wealth and social connection. The
fact that Trump once flew from Palm Beach to Newark
on Epstein's plane doesn't prove anything except that they knew
each other well enough for Epstein to offer the ride
(23:29):
and Trump to accept it. However, we also can't simply
dismiss the contradiction. Trump said he never flew on the
plane the documentary evidence shows he did. That's either a
false statement or a failure of memory. If it's a
false statement, that raises questions about what else Trump might
(23:50):
be misrepresenting. If it's a failure of memory, that's more innocent,
but still notable, given how adamantly Trump has denied any
close connection to Epstein. What the logs prove and don't prove.
The flight logs prove that certain people traveled on Epstein's
plane at certain times. They do not prove that anyone
(24:11):
who appears in the logs participated in or knew about
criminal activity. They do not even prove that any one
who appears in the logs was close friends with Epstein.
People sometimes accept flights from casual acquaintances or business contacts.
What the logs do establish is a level of association,
a degree of connection that suggests these individuals were at
(24:34):
least part of Epstein's social network. The important thing to
understand about the flight logs is that they've been massively
over interpreted by people with various agendas. Conspiracy theorists have
treated the logs as if they were a list of
co conspirators, which they're not. Defenders of people who appear
in the logs have sometimes tried to dismiss the logs
(24:56):
is completely meaningless, which isn't accurate either. The truth is
somewhere in between. The logs are evidence of association, and
some of those associations may be significant, but appearing in
a flight log is not by itself evidence of criminal conduct.
The Black Book multiple phone numbers for Trump. The other
(25:18):
key piece of documentary evidence is what's become known as
Epstein's Black Book. This is actually a directory that was
maintained by Epstein and his staff, containing contact information for
hundreds or thousands of people. The book included names, phone numbers, addresses,
and sometimes additional notes about relationships or connections. The Black
(25:40):
Book came to public attention in two thousand nine, when
it was obtained by an investigative website and published online.
The book had been in the possession of a former
Epstein employee, who later provided it to law enforcement. Its
authenticity has been verified through court proceedings and through the
fact that many of the people listened did in it
(26:00):
have confirmed their information was accurate. Donald Trump appears in
the Black Book. In fact, his entry is quite extensive.
The book lists multiple phone numbers for Trump, including numbers
for his office, his home, and his various properties. It
also includes phone numbers for members of Trump's family and
for Trump organization executives. This suggests that whoever maintained the book,
(26:26):
whether it was Epstein himself or an assistant, considered Trump
an important contact who they might need to reach through
various channels. So what does being in the Black Book mean?
Trump's defenders argue that it means very little. They point
out that the Black Book contains literally thousands of names.
(26:46):
It's not a list of criminal co conspirators. It's more
like a rolodex of people Epstein knew or might want
to contact for various reasons. Having someone's phone number doesn't
imply participation in criminal acts activity any more than having
someone's business card does. Trump's critics, on the other hand,
argue that the extensive nature of Trump's entry, with multiple
(27:09):
phone numbers for him and his family members, suggests a
closer relationship than Trumps publicly acknowledged. They note that not
everyone in the book has such detailed entries, and the
fact that Trump's does suggests he was someone Epstein or
his staff contacted with some regularity. What can we actually conclude?
The Black Book establishes that Trump was part of Epstein's
(27:31):
contact network. The detailed nature of the entry suggests more
than a casual acquaintance, but it doesn't prove anything about
Trump's knowledge of or participation in criminal activity. Phone books
and contact lists are not evidence of crimes, their evidence
of social and professional networks. The Black Book includes many
(27:54):
people who have never been accused of any wrongdoing related
to Epstein. It includes people who presumably gave Epstein their
phone numbers at parties or business events and then never
had significant contact with him. Again, it includes people who
may have been business contacts, potential donors to causes Epstein supported,
or simply names collected over years of socializing in elite circles.
(28:19):
So we need to be careful not to overinterpret what
being in the Black Book means. At the same time,
we shouldn't dismiss it entirely. The book is evidence of
the social world Epstein inhabited and the people he had
access to. It's one piece of a larger puzzle that
helps us understand Epstein's network and influence. What about family
(28:41):
members being included. Some have argued that the inclusion of
phone numbers for Trump family members is particularly significant. I
think this argument is weak. It's very common in contact
lists to include multiple numbers for important people, including ways
to reach them through family members or assistance. If you're
(29:02):
maintaining a comprehensive directory of business and social contacts, including
alternate contact methods makes practical sense. It doesn't imply that
those family members had any relationship with Epstein themselves. Let
me summarize what we've established in this act about documentary evidence. First,
the flight logs show that Trump flew on Epstein's plane,
(29:24):
at least once, contradicting Trump's claim that he never did.
The fight was a short domestic trip that doesn't prove
any wrongdoing, but does establish that Trump accepted Epstein's hospitality. Second,
the black book shows that Trump was part of Epstein's
contact network, with multiple phone numbers listed, suggesting regular or
(29:46):
least potential contact. Neither of these pieces of evidence proves
criminal wrongdoing, but they do establish a level of association
that's more significant than barely knew him. So where does
this leave us At the end of episode one? We've
established several key facts about the relationship between Donald Trump
and Jeffrey Epstein. They knew each other socially for a
(30:08):
period of years in the nineteen nineties and early two thousands.
They attended parties together, They were photographed together multiple times.
Trump spoke positively about Epstein in a two thousand and
two interview. Trump appears in Epstein's flight logs and contact book.
They had some kind of falling out in the mid
two thousands before Epstein's first arrest. These are facts established
(30:34):
by documentary evidence and Trump's own statements. They're not speculation,
they're not partisans spin, they're not conspiracy theories. They're simply
what the record shows. But here's what we haven't established.
We haven't established that Trump participated in any of Epstein's crimes.
We haven't established that Trump had specific knowledge that Epstein
(30:56):
was trafficking underage girls. We haven't found on any accusers
who have named Trump as someone they were traffic to.
We haven't found evidence that Trump visited Epstein's private island
or was present at locations where abuse was occurring. The
absence of such evidence is significant. If Trump had been
involved in Epstein's criminal activity, we would expect to find
(31:19):
victims who named him, flight logs showing trips to the island,
or other concrete evidence of participation. The fact that such
evidence hasn't emerged despite intense scrutiny and investigation, suggests that
Trump's association with Epstein was social rather than criminal. However,
the absence of evidence of wrongdoing doesn't mean the relationship
(31:43):
was meaningless or that questions about it are illegitimate. Trump
was friends with a man who turned out to be
a serial sexual predator. Trump spent time in social settings
where Epstein was present, and Trump has made statements about
the relationship that are contradicted by documentary evidence. These facts
(32:03):
raise legitimate questions about Trump's judgment, about what he might
have seen or heard during the years of their friendship,
and about why he's been less than fully forthcoming about
the extent of that friendship. In our next episode, we're
going to examine specific allegations that have been made about
Trump in connection with the Epstein case. Will look at
(32:25):
court documents, media reports, and claims that have circulated online,
and will apply the same rigorous fact checking approach. What
can we prove, what is plausible but unproven, and what
is demonstrably false. The goal is to give you, the listener,
the tools to evaluate these claims for yourself, based on
(32:45):
evidence rather than partisan narratives. This has been episode one
of Hoax the Epstein Files, Facts Versus Claims. In this series,
we're committed to pursuing truth over no narrative, facts over speculation,
and evidence over innuendo. Join us next time as we
(33:07):
continue this investigation. For more content like this, please go
to Quiet Please dot ai Quiet, please dot Ai hear
what matters
Welcome to Hoax the Epstein Files, Facts Versus Claims. I
am Alexandra Reeves, an AI investigative journalist, and over the
next three episodes, we're going to do something that's become
increasingly rare in coverage of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. We're
going to separate what we can actually prove from what
(00:22):
we're merely speculating about. We're going to examine the documentary evidence,
the court records, the verified testimonies, and the photographic proof,
and we're going to compare all of that against the claims,
the denials, the conspiracy theories, and yes, the hoaxes that
are proliferated around this case. To day is Thursday, November thirteenth,
(00:47):
and the Epstein story is once again dominating headlines. New
e mails have been released by the House Oversight Committee,
political battles are raging over document disclosure, and perhaps most significantly,
the word hoax has entered the conversation in a big way.
(01:07):
President Trump has called the renewed focus on his connection
to Epstein the Jeffrey Epstein Hoax. He's compared it to
what he's previously called the Russia hoax and the impeachment hoax.
But is that characterization accurate. Is the connection between Trump
and Epstein actually a hoax or is it documented fact
(01:28):
that's been deliberately obscured. Before we dive into the specifics,
let's establish who Jeffrey Epstein was and why any of
this matters. Jeoffrey Epstein was a financier who died in
federal custody in August twenty nineteen while awaiting trial on
sex trafficking charges. His death was ruled a suicide, though
(01:52):
the circumstances remain controversial. Before his death, and for more
than a decade before that, Epstein was known to Lauren
enforcement as a serial sexual predator who had created an
elaborate system for accruiting, grooming, and abusing unaged girls. Epstein's
first criminal conviction came in two thousand and eight, when
(02:13):
he pleaded guilty to state prostitution charges in Florida as
part of a controversial plea deal that kept federal charges
off the table. He served just thirteen months in a
county jail with work willise privileges, a sentence that legal
experts widely regarded as outrageously lenient given the severity of
(02:34):
the underlying crimes. That PLEA deal was arranged by then
United States Attorney Alexander Acosta, who would later serve as
Secretary of Labour in the Trump administration before resigning amid
renewed scrutiny of his handling of the Epstein case. After
his two thousand Debate conviction, Epstein returned to a life
(02:54):
of wealth and privilege, albeit with the requirement to register
as a sex offender. Maintained residences in Manhattan, Palm Beach,
New Mexico, and a private island in the U S.
Virgin Islands. He continued to socialize with powerful and influential people,
though his circle had contracted somewhat following his conviction. In
(03:15):
July twenty nineteen, federal prosecutors in New York brought new
charges against Epstein, accusing him of running a sex trafficking
operation that had victimized dozens of girls as young as
fourteen years old. A month later, he was found dead
in his cell. Epstein's longtime associate, Glaine Maxwell, was arrested
(03:36):
in July twenty twenty and convicted in December twenty twenty
one on charges of sex trafficking and conspiracy. She was
sentenced to twenty years in Federal Prism. Maxwell, a British
socialite and the daughter of disgraced media mogul Robert Maxwell,
was accused of being Epstein's primary recruiter and accomplice, luring
(03:59):
young girls into Epstein's orbit and participating in their abuse.
So that's the basic framework of who Epstein was and
what he did. Now, why does any of this matter?
In November twenty twenty five, because the question of who
knew what and when they knew it has become one
of the most contentious political issues in America. Epstein's social
(04:21):
network included presidents, princes, scientists, business men, and celebrities. Some
of these people have been directly accused by victims of
participating in Epstein's crimes. Others appear in documents simply because
they knew Epstein's socially or professionally, and the question of
which category various individuals fall into has enormous implications for
(04:45):
their reputations, their careers, and in some cases, their legal exposure.
Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein has been a particular
focus of attention because Trump is now President of the
United States for the second time. During his twenty sixteen
campaign and Throughout his first term, Trump's critics repeatedly raised
(05:06):
questions about his past friendship with Epstein. Trump and his
supporters have consistently dismissed these questions as politically motivated attacks
based on guilt by association. They've argued that Trump barely
knew Epstein, that they had a falling out years before
Epstein's crimes became public, and that there's no evidence whatsoever
(05:28):
that Trump engaged in or had knowledge of, any illegal activity.
But is that narrative accurate? That's what we're here to investigate,
not with speculation, not with anonymous sources, not with conspiracy theories,
but with documents, photographs, court records, and verified statements. We're
(05:50):
going to look at what Trump has said about Epstein
over the years, what the evidence shows about their relationship,
and where the documented facts diverge from the public claims.
The framework for this investigation is simple, what can we
prove versus what is speculation? In the current media environment,
these lines have become hopelessly blurred. Social media is filled
(06:13):
with wild theories about Epstein's death, his alleged intelligence connections,
and the supposed contents of files that may or may
not exist. Partisan outlets on both left and right cherry
pick facts to support predetermined narratives, and in the midst
of all this noise, it's become almost impossible for ordinary
citizens to figure out what's actually true. So here is
(06:37):
what we're going to do. We're going to start with
the documented, verifiable facts. Photos that can be authenticated, flight
locks that come from official sources, court taggling. As the
end of the translator is what can not be any one,
quotes that were recorded at the time they were made.
(06:59):
And we're going to build up from there, carefully distinguishing
between what we know for certain, what we can reasonably
infer from the evidence, and what remains in the realm
of speculation or allegation. This approach won't satisfy everyone. People
who are convinced that Trump is guilty of terrible crimes
will likely feel we're being too cautious and giving him
(07:20):
too much benefit of the doubt. People who believe Trump
has been completely exonerated will likely feel we're being unfairly
critical by even examining his past association with Epstein. But
our goal isn't to satisfy partisan narratives. Our goal is
to present the truth as accurately as we can determine
(07:40):
it from the available evidence. One more thing before we
move forward. This series is called Hoax the Epstein Files
Facts versus Claims because we're examining what's real and what isn't.
But the title is not meant to suggest that the
Epstein scandal itself is a hoax. Jeffrey Epstein was a
(08:01):
real criminal who committed real crimes against real victims. Helene
Maxwell is serving a twenty year prison sentence for real
crimes she committed. The question we're investigating is whether specific
claims about specific individuals, particularly Donald Trump, are supported by evidence,
(08:23):
or whether they constitute a hoax in the sense of
being fabricated or grossly distorted allegations. With that foundation established,
let's move into the heart of our investigation. Let's start
with what we can prove beyond any reasonable doubt. Donald
Trump and Jeffrey Epstein knew each other socially for a
(08:44):
period of time in the nineteen nineties and early two thousands.
This is not speculation or allegation. This is documented fact,
established by photographs, video footage, public statements, and the testimony
of people who observed them. To the mar Largo years,
represent the period of closest association between Trump and Epstein.
(09:07):
Mara Lago is Trump's private club and resort in Palm Beach, Florida.
It's a place where wealthy and influential people gather for
social events, where Trump has spent a significant portion of
his time both before and during his presidency, and where
he has cultivated relationships with business associates, political allies, and celebrities.
(09:30):
Jeffrey Epstein became a member of Mara Lago at some
point in the nineteen nineties. The exact date of when
he joined is not publicly documented, but multiple sources place
him as a regular presence at the club from the
mid nineteen nineties through the early two thousands. During this period,
Trump and Epstein were photographed together at numerous social events,
(09:51):
both at Marilla and lou was also part of the
election and her He said the usual new social quality.
Let's look at the photographic evidence, because this is where
we can be absolutely certain. There's a video from nineteen
ninety two that shows Trump and Epstein at a party
at Mari Largo. In the video, Trump and Epstein are
(10:14):
standing together, talking and laughing, watching women dance. Trump appears
to make comments to Epstein gesturing toward the women. The
video has been authenticated and has been widely circulated in
media reports. It's clear, unambiguous evidence that Trump and Epstein
socialized together and were comfortable in each other's company. There
(10:37):
are also multiple photographs from this era showing Trump and
Epstein together at various events. Some of these photos were
taken at Mari Largo, others were taken at parties in
New York. In the photos, Trump and Epstein appear relaxed
and friendly, often surrounded by attractive women. These aren't just
(10:58):
formal event photos where two people happened to be in
the same room. These are images that suggest an actual
social relationship. Beyond the visual evidence, we have Trump's own
words about Epstein. In a two thousand two profile published
in New York magazine, Trump was asked about Epstein, and
he gave this quote. I've known Jeff for fifteen years.
(11:20):
Terrific guy. I listened to calling bag and said I
should be sorry and end of him. He's a lot
of fun to be with. It is even said that
he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and
many of them are on the younger side. No doubt
about it Jeffrey enjoys his social life. Let's pass this
(11:41):
quote carefully because it's been endlessly analyzed and debated. First,
Trump says he's known Epstein for fifteen years. If the
interview took place in two thousand and two, that would
place the start of their relationship around nineteen eighty seven.
Though its possible Trump was rounding or speaking loosely, the
key point is that Trump is acknowledging a long standing relationship,
(12:05):
not a casual acquaintance. Second, Trump describes Epstein as a
terrific guy and says he's a lot of fun to
be with. This is clearly friendly language, the way you
talk about someone you actually like and enjoy spending time with.
This isn't the language of a distant business contact or
someone you barely know. Third, and most controversially, Trump says
(12:29):
that Epstein likes beautiful women as much as I do,
and many of them are on the younger side. What
does younger side mean in this context? Trump's defenders argue
that this phrase refers to women in their twenties or thirties,
which would be younger than Trump and Epstein, who were
both in their fifties at the time, but still legal adults.
(12:52):
Trump's critics argue that this phrase suggests Trump was aware
of Epstein's preference for very young women, possibly underage girls,
and was obliquely referencing that preference. What can we actually
determine from this phrase? Honestly, it's ambiguous. The phrase younger
side could mean different things to different people. Without additional
(13:15):
context about what Trump meant or what he knew at
the time, we can't definitively say whether this was an
innocent comment about adult women or a veiled reference to
something more sinister. What we can say is that Trump
was clearly aware that Epstein liked young women, and he
was comfortable enough with that to mention it in a
magazine interview. It's also worth noting what this quote tells
(13:39):
us about the time line. This interview was published in
two thousand eighty two, which was years before Epstein's first
arrest in two thousand eighty six. At the time Trump
made these comments, Epstein had not been publicly accused of
any crimes. He was known simply as a wealthy financier
with a taste for attractive, younger wine women, which in
(14:01):
the social circles Trump traveled in, was not particularly unusual
or scandalous. So we have established beyond any doubt that
Trump and Epstein had a social relationship during the nineteen
nineties and early two thousands. They attended parties together, they
were members of the same social clubs. Trump spoke about
(14:22):
Epstein in friendly terms. This is all documented, verifiable fact.
Now let's talk about the falling out. According to Trump
and his representatives, Trump's friendship with Epstein ended sometime in
the mid two thousands, years before Epstein's first arrest. The
Trump campaign has offered various explanations for this falling out
(14:45):
over the years, and those explanations have been somewhat inconsistent.
One version of the story is that Epstein was banned
from Mara Lado after making inappropriate advances toward the underaged
daughter of a club member. This verse has been reported
by multiple outlets citing anonymous sources close to Trump. According
(15:08):
to this account, Epstein hit on a young woman at
the club, Trump learned about it, and Trump personally revoked
Epstein's membership. Another version focuses on a real estate dispute.
According to this account, Trump and Epstein both bid on
a Palm Beach mansion known as the Maison de la Mitee.
In two thousand four, Trunk won the bidding war, purchasing
(15:31):
the property for forty one point four million dollars. Some
sources have suggested that this business dispute soured the personal
relationship between the two men. A third version, which has
been less prominently featured but appears in some reporting, suggests
that Trump simply distanced himself from Epstein after learning about
the allegations against him through media reports or social gossip
(15:55):
in Palm Beach. So which version is true or are
elements of all three versions true? This is where we
move from established fact into more uncertain territory. The problem
is that the falling out, whatever its cause, appears to
have happened privately. There's no public record of Trump banning
(16:16):
Epstein from more Lago. There's no documentary evidence establishing exactly
when the friendship ended or why. We're reliant on second
hand accounts from sources who may have their own reasons
for emphasizing certain aspects of the story over others. What
we can say with some confidence, based on the timeline
of available evidence, is that Trump and Epstein do not
(16:39):
appear to have been close associates after the mid two thousands.
There are no photos of them together after that period.
Trump's public comments about Epstein became much more distant and negative.
After Epstein's two thousand eight conviction and when Epstein was
arrested again in twenty nineteen, Trump told reporters I had
(17:00):
a falling out with him a long time ago. I
don't think I've spoken to him for fifteen years. Let's
fact check that claim. If Trump made that statement in
two thousand and nineteen and claimed not to have spoken
to Epstein for fifteen years, that would place their last
conversation around two thousand and four, which roughly aligns with
the time line of the real estate dispute over the
(17:22):
Palm Beach mansion. So Trump's claim is at least chronologically plausible. However,
we should note that I don't think I've spoken to
him for fifteen years is hedging language I don't think
suggests uncertainty, which is odd. If you're talking about whether
you've had contact with someone over a fifteen year period,
(17:43):
either you've spoken to some one or you haven't. The
hedging could be innocent, just casual speech, or it could
suggest that Trump wasn't entirely confident in his claim competing
narratives about the falling out of created confusion, and given
both sides, it's ammunition for their arguments. Trump's defenders point
(18:03):
to the falling out as evidence that Trump recognized Epstein
was bad news and distanced himself Accordingly, Trump's critics argue
that the various explanations for the falling out are suspiciously inconsistent,
and that Trump may have distanced himself not because he
disapproved of Epstein's behavior, but because he wanted to avoid
(18:24):
being tainted by epstein association once Epstein's legal problems became public.
What's the truth? Based on the available evidence, Here's what
we can say. Trump and Epstein were definitely friends in
the nineteen nineties and early two thousands. They definitely had
some kind of falling out in the mid two thousands.
(18:46):
The exact nature and timing of that falling out is
not definitively established, and the explanations that have been offered
are somewhat inconsistent. After the falling out, there's no evidence
of continued close association between the two men. Is that
exculpatory for Trump? Not necessarily? The fact that Trump stopped
(19:07):
being friends with Epstein in the mid two thousands. Doesn't
tell us what Trump knew or witnessed during the years
when they were friends, but it does establish that Trump
was not maintaining a close relationship with Epstein during the
period when Epstein's crimes became public knowledge and when most
of the civil litigation and criminal investigations were taking place. Now,
(19:28):
let's turn to the specific pieces of documentary evidence that
have been the subject of so much controversy, the flight
logs and the Black Book. These documents have been cited
endlessly in media coverage and social media posts, often with
claims that go well beyond what the documents actually show.
So let's look at what these documents really are and
(19:49):
what they actually prove. Flight logs what actually exists. Jeffrey
Epstein owned a private jet, a Boeing seven two seven
that became infinite and was nicknamed the Lalita Express by
the media. This nickname was based on allegations that Epstein
used the plane to transport underage girls as part of
(20:11):
his sex trafficking operation. Flight logs for this aircraft have
been obtained through various legal proceedings and Freedom of Information
Act requests. The logs come from multiple sources, some were
produced during civil litigation brought by Epstein's victims. Others came
from Federal Aviation Administration records. Still others were provided by
(20:34):
pilots who flew the plane and who were compelled to
testify in various proceedings. The logs are not complete. There
are gaps in the records, and some flights are documented
more thoroughly than others. But what we have constituted several
hundred pages of records showing who flew on Epstein's plane,
(20:54):
when they flew, and where they were going. Many prominent
people appear in these flight licks. Former President Bill Clinton
appears multiple times, reflecting trips he took in the early
two thousands as part of his foundation's work in Africa.
Prince Andrew appears in the logs. Various celebrities, scientists, and
(21:16):
business executives appear, and yes, Donald Trump appears in the
logs as well. Let's be very specific about what the
flight logs show regarding Trump. There is one documented flight
that Trump took on Epstein's plane. This was a flight
from Palm Beach, Florida, to Newark, New Jersey, that took
place on January fifth, nineteen ninety seven. The flight log
(21:40):
for this trip has been produced in court proceedings and
has been authenticated. Trump's name appears on the manifest, along
with several other passengers. Trump has claimed publicly that he
never flew on Epstein's plane. In a twenty fifteen interview,
Trump said, I never flew on his plane. That claim
(22:00):
is contradicted by the flight log from nineteen ninety seven,
So we have a clear factual discrepancy. Trump says he
never flew on the plane, but documentary evidence shows he
did at least once. Now, how significant is this discrepancy.
Let's think about it carefully. First, it's important to note
(22:21):
that the flight in question was a relatively short domestic
flight from Florida to New Jersey. It was not a
trip to Epstein's private island, which is where much of
the alleged criminal activity took place. It was not an
international flight. It was essentially a shottle trip up the
East coast. Second, the fact that this flight took place
(22:45):
in nineteen ninety seven means it was more than two
decades before Trump made his denial in twenty fifteen. It's
at least possible that Trump genuinely didn't remember this flight
particularly if it was an informal arrangement where Epstein offered
a ride rather than a planned trip. Third, and perhaps
most significantly, taking one flight on someone's private plane does
(23:08):
not establish participation in or knowledge of criminal activity. Rich
people give each other rides on private planes all the time.
It's a common perk of wealth and social connection. The
fact that Trump once flew from Palm Beach to Newark
on Epstein's plane doesn't prove anything except that they knew
each other well enough for Epstein to offer the ride
(23:29):
and Trump to accept it. However, we also can't simply
dismiss the contradiction. Trump said he never flew on the
plane the documentary evidence shows he did. That's either a
false statement or a failure of memory. If it's a
false statement, that raises questions about what else Trump might
(23:50):
be misrepresenting. If it's a failure of memory, that's more innocent,
but still notable, given how adamantly Trump has denied any
close connection to Epstein. What the logs prove and don't prove.
The flight logs prove that certain people traveled on Epstein's
plane at certain times. They do not prove that anyone
(24:11):
who appears in the logs participated in or knew about
criminal activity. They do not even prove that any one
who appears in the logs was close friends with Epstein.
People sometimes accept flights from casual acquaintances or business contacts.
What the logs do establish is a level of association,
a degree of connection that suggests these individuals were at
(24:34):
least part of Epstein's social network. The important thing to
understand about the flight logs is that they've been massively
over interpreted by people with various agendas. Conspiracy theorists have
treated the logs as if they were a list of
co conspirators, which they're not. Defenders of people who appear
in the logs have sometimes tried to dismiss the logs
(24:56):
is completely meaningless, which isn't accurate either. The truth is
somewhere in between. The logs are evidence of association, and
some of those associations may be significant, but appearing in
a flight log is not by itself evidence of criminal conduct.
The Black Book multiple phone numbers for Trump. The other
(25:18):
key piece of documentary evidence is what's become known as
Epstein's Black Book. This is actually a directory that was
maintained by Epstein and his staff, containing contact information for
hundreds or thousands of people. The book included names, phone numbers, addresses,
and sometimes additional notes about relationships or connections. The Black
(25:40):
Book came to public attention in two thousand nine, when
it was obtained by an investigative website and published online.
The book had been in the possession of a former
Epstein employee, who later provided it to law enforcement. Its
authenticity has been verified through court proceedings and through the
fact that many of the people listened did in it
(26:00):
have confirmed their information was accurate. Donald Trump appears in
the Black Book. In fact, his entry is quite extensive.
The book lists multiple phone numbers for Trump, including numbers
for his office, his home, and his various properties. It
also includes phone numbers for members of Trump's family and
for Trump organization executives. This suggests that whoever maintained the book,
(26:26):
whether it was Epstein himself or an assistant, considered Trump
an important contact who they might need to reach through
various channels. So what does being in the Black Book mean?
Trump's defenders argue that it means very little. They point
out that the Black Book contains literally thousands of names.
(26:46):
It's not a list of criminal co conspirators. It's more
like a rolodex of people Epstein knew or might want
to contact for various reasons. Having someone's phone number doesn't
imply participation in criminal acts activity any more than having
someone's business card does. Trump's critics, on the other hand,
argue that the extensive nature of Trump's entry, with multiple
(27:09):
phone numbers for him and his family members, suggests a
closer relationship than Trumps publicly acknowledged. They note that not
everyone in the book has such detailed entries, and the
fact that Trump's does suggests he was someone Epstein or
his staff contacted with some regularity. What can we actually conclude?
The Black Book establishes that Trump was part of Epstein's
(27:31):
contact network. The detailed nature of the entry suggests more
than a casual acquaintance, but it doesn't prove anything about
Trump's knowledge of or participation in criminal activity. Phone books
and contact lists are not evidence of crimes, their evidence
of social and professional networks. The Black Book includes many
(27:54):
people who have never been accused of any wrongdoing related
to Epstein. It includes people who presumably gave Epstein their
phone numbers at parties or business events and then never
had significant contact with him. Again, it includes people who
may have been business contacts, potential donors to causes Epstein supported,
or simply names collected over years of socializing in elite circles.
(28:19):
So we need to be careful not to overinterpret what
being in the Black Book means. At the same time,
we shouldn't dismiss it entirely. The book is evidence of
the social world Epstein inhabited and the people he had
access to. It's one piece of a larger puzzle that
helps us understand Epstein's network and influence. What about family
(28:41):
members being included. Some have argued that the inclusion of
phone numbers for Trump family members is particularly significant. I
think this argument is weak. It's very common in contact
lists to include multiple numbers for important people, including ways
to reach them through family members or assistance. If you're
(29:02):
maintaining a comprehensive directory of business and social contacts, including
alternate contact methods makes practical sense. It doesn't imply that
those family members had any relationship with Epstein themselves. Let
me summarize what we've established in this act about documentary evidence. First,
the flight logs show that Trump flew on Epstein's plane,
(29:24):
at least once, contradicting Trump's claim that he never did.
The fight was a short domestic trip that doesn't prove
any wrongdoing, but does establish that Trump accepted Epstein's hospitality. Second,
the black book shows that Trump was part of Epstein's
contact network, with multiple phone numbers listed, suggesting regular or
(29:46):
least potential contact. Neither of these pieces of evidence proves
criminal wrongdoing, but they do establish a level of association
that's more significant than barely knew him. So where does
this leave us At the end of episode one? We've
established several key facts about the relationship between Donald Trump
and Jeffrey Epstein. They knew each other socially for a
(30:08):
period of years in the nineteen nineties and early two thousands.
They attended parties together, They were photographed together multiple times.
Trump spoke positively about Epstein in a two thousand and
two interview. Trump appears in Epstein's flight logs and contact book.
They had some kind of falling out in the mid
two thousands before Epstein's first arrest. These are facts established
(30:34):
by documentary evidence and Trump's own statements. They're not speculation,
they're not partisans spin, they're not conspiracy theories. They're simply
what the record shows. But here's what we haven't established.
We haven't established that Trump participated in any of Epstein's crimes.
We haven't established that Trump had specific knowledge that Epstein
(30:56):
was trafficking underage girls. We haven't found on any accusers
who have named Trump as someone they were traffic to.
We haven't found evidence that Trump visited Epstein's private island
or was present at locations where abuse was occurring. The
absence of such evidence is significant. If Trump had been
involved in Epstein's criminal activity, we would expect to find
(31:19):
victims who named him, flight logs showing trips to the island,
or other concrete evidence of participation. The fact that such
evidence hasn't emerged despite intense scrutiny and investigation, suggests that
Trump's association with Epstein was social rather than criminal. However,
the absence of evidence of wrongdoing doesn't mean the relationship
(31:43):
was meaningless or that questions about it are illegitimate. Trump
was friends with a man who turned out to be
a serial sexual predator. Trump spent time in social settings
where Epstein was present, and Trump has made statements about
the relationship that are contradicted by documentary evidence. These facts
(32:03):
raise legitimate questions about Trump's judgment, about what he might
have seen or heard during the years of their friendship,
and about why he's been less than fully forthcoming about
the extent of that friendship. In our next episode, we're
going to examine specific allegations that have been made about
Trump in connection with the Epstein case. Will look at
(32:25):
court documents, media reports, and claims that have circulated online,
and will apply the same rigorous fact checking approach. What
can we prove, what is plausible but unproven, and what
is demonstrably false. The goal is to give you, the listener,
the tools to evaluate these claims for yourself, based on
(32:45):
evidence rather than partisan narratives. This has been episode one
of Hoax the Epstein Files, Facts Versus Claims. In this series,
we're committed to pursuing truth over no narrative, facts over speculation,
and evidence over innuendo. Join us next time as we
(33:07):
continue this investigation. For more content like this, please go
to Quiet Please dot ai Quiet, please dot Ai hear
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