Richard Kuklinski - The Iceman Interview

Richard Kuklinski - The Iceman Interview

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Is your kod Kleinsky.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
We're going to the doctor pass search here for your
arms out.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
On May twenty fifth, nineteen eighty eight, Richard Kuklinsky was
convicted of multiple murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. This
ended thirty years of cold blooded killing by a masked
criminal police called the Iceman.

Speaker 4 (00:54):
Richard Koklinsky is one of the most dangerous criminals we
have ever come across in the state. He murdered by guns,
He murdered by strangulation. He murdered by putting poison on
victim's food. He did of all of this at the
same time while exhibiting a normal, placid family existence. His wife,

(01:16):
his children, UH were uninvolved in his criminal activities. Yet
we are faced with UH evidence convicting evidence of UH
numerous grizzly murders.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
How many people bet killed? All right?

Speaker 5 (01:42):
The approximate guests approximate will go more than a hundred.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
How do you feel about killing? I don't. It doesn't
bother me. It doesn't bother me at all. I don't
have a feeling one way or the other. I think
if I had a choice, I wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
The following program is based on seventeen hours of an
interview conducted under maximum security at Trenton State Prison. Law
enforcement officials allowed our camera's unprecedented access in an attempt
to uncover details of various unsolved crimes. It was also
hoped that the interview would help to penetrate the mind

(02:51):
of Richard Koklinsky, a mind made for murder?

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Would you when you were on the streets?

Speaker 6 (03:01):
What kind of.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Weapons did you use? When I was out on the
street to do something, I carried three guns and a knife.
I had a damage in each pocket on a gun
on my ankle, a picker, big gun just in case,

(03:26):
and a knife. And it all depends how it came
about you yesterday that he used a shotgun to go
a stalk light or something like that. Or I had
a red light. We were following this fella. I pulled

(03:48):
up a a red light, came alongside of it and
shot the shotgun took his head off. He never saw
the green light. It was a Soto shotgun. It was
very uh. As a matter of fact, when it happened,

(04:10):
it surprised me. I expected the the man to die,
but it really surprised me when it It would have
took his head off. It wasn't something I didn't expect.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
Richard Koklinsky is not a serial killer. He's not a
drug crazed wild man running around with a machine gun.
He's not a person that is driven by perverse sexual desires.
He doesn't drink, he doesn't gamble. All of these things

(04:53):
which many persons that are involved in killing and murders
often are motivated by Richard Koklinsky instead, Uh is nothing
more than a predator uh on human beings.

Speaker 5 (05:05):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
His motivation is greed, and his method of murder is
very varied, uh and very extreme.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Richard, I understand if you're an expert of the use
of cyanide, how many times did you kill with it?
Quite a few. That's the different ways to use sciide.
You could uh put it in a liquid form. You
could uh there could persectake it. For instance, a person

(05:37):
could be in a bar, you bunk into them, possibly
uh by mistake, or say you were intoxicated, spill a
drink on 'em and leave. Everybody just looks around and
thinks you were drunk, or bet you just had an
accent or something. And uh, meanwhile it's so looking to

(06:00):
their clothes, into their pores and into their system and
eventually they'll died. I've been in the restaurant where we
were eating and the guy went to the bathroom and

(06:22):
uh uh when he was in the bathroom, we put
a little boost in his uh and his food and
he was rushed to the hospital after that, and uh
he died and they buried him. And I exactly show

(06:46):
what they put out what they attributed his death too.
But you know it wasn't homicide.

Speaker 7 (06:56):
Somewhere, and I don't know where, he picked up on
some ionide poisoning as being a good way, a good
quick way to kill somebody. It's such a good way
to kill somebody that that's the gas that's used in
gas chambers. I mean cyanide in a gas fat form,
which is similar to cyanide in in being eaten form

(07:20):
kills very quickly, it's a very It kills faster than arsenic,
faster than strychening, and it's hard to detect if the
person if it isn't specifically looked for.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
He murdered sometimes months apart, years apart. He used different methods.
It would go so far as to plan in his crimes,
the actual deceit of law enforcement. By that, I mean
he would, on occasion murder someone, cut their body, wrap

(07:58):
them in layer after layer of plastic bags and material,
and then deposit the body many many miles from the murder.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
Sy What is it to dispose of something? You throw
it away, You throw it anywhere. It all depends if
you don't want it found, or if you want it found.
If you want to found, it doesn't matter. Just leave
it there. If you don't want it found, you could
take it somewhere. You could bury it. You could put

(08:31):
it in a big drum. You put it in a
trunk of a car and have it crushed. If you
leave it in town, put it on a park bench.
I mean, you know, you could put it anywhere you want.
They found a few people sitting on park benches, I'm sure,

(08:57):
as a matter of fact, I know they have. Are
there any murders that you committed that you didn't want
you that you just sort of you feel and you do.
Nothing haunts me. No murders haunted me. Nothing. I don't

(09:21):
think about it. That's why it's hallered me to tell you.
But it orders me to be able to tell you
when something happened. I'd have to think about why when
if I think about it, it would wind up hurting me,
so I don't. I don't think about it. If I

(09:48):
had a choice, and of course you as already said
to me, we all have a choice, maybe we do.
At the time I didn't seem to have. But if
I could have, I would like to be different than
what I am. I would have liked to be different
more him than what I was. Yes, it would be better.

(10:12):
It would have been better for me. I would have
liked to had a better outlook on life. But I
can't change yesterday.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
Richard Koklinsky was born April eleventh, nineteen thirty five, in
a low income public housing project in Jersey City. His
father was a brakeman for the railroad, and his mother
worked in a meatpacking plant.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
I didn't like my calm because he would beat me
just because he felt like to get my attention. I
guess he would think nothing of coming in and smacking you. Yeah, basically,
he'd just come in and give you a whooping for
another reason whatsoever. And my mother was cancer. She would

(11:08):
destroy everybody. She thought I took too long to do something.
She didn't hesitate to give me a swat here and there.
And she didn't just use her hand. She she would
hit me with a a broomstick or something like that.
Wouldn't he'd harry. As a matter of fact, she broke

(11:30):
the broom on me more than once.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Richard's mother believed that harsh discipline at home should go
hand in hand with a rigid religious education.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
I was raised UH Catholic, m Uh. We were very
She was strict as far as uh the religion goes.
I went to uh her mother, my mother, yeah, my mother.

Speaker 6 (11:57):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
We went to uh Catholic grammar school, and we were
raised with the Catholic belief. I was even an altar boy.
But during the course of my life, I don't really
believe it. It's just the way it happened. Didn't mean

(12:24):
it to happen that way, but it just happened that way.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
When his father abandoned the family, Richard, a skinny, timid
young teenager, was left to fend for himself. He was
an easy target for street gangs, but by the time
he was sixteen, things began to change.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
When I was a young man, I found out that
if you hurt somebody, they'll leave you alone. Good guys
do finish last. When I tried to believe it alone,
just do my own thing, everybody just wanted to hurt me.

(13:05):
Until one day I just decided, well, I've had enough
of this picking and I went upstairs and I took
a uh a bar which the clothes used to hang
on in the UH closet, and I went back downstairs.
And they were like six young men, still figuring they

(13:30):
were gonna mess with my head, and UH we went
to war. To their surprise, I was no longer taking
the beating. I was giving it. And that's when I
learned that it was better to give than to receive.

(13:54):
I've been known to hurt people for no reason. If
you check out my background as I came up, I
could be anywhere, and if somebody humiliated me, I would
think nothing of hitting him with acoustic in an instant an.
The only thing they might have done is made me

(14:17):
feel bad or challenged my authority.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
At the time, Koklinski's reputation as a tough guy with
a hair trigger temper grew. By the time he was eighteen,
the abused had become the abuser. It wasn't long before
he committed his first murder.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
I got into a fight in a bar. We got
into an argument to fight, and I hit him with
a with acoustic h a few too many times and
he died. How'd you feel after? When he found out

(15:01):
that he had died, I had felt very bad, very
very bad. I was upset. I didn't mean to do it, actually,
but surprisingly I felt sadness, and after a while I

(15:24):
felt something else. I didn't feel sad. It was sad
along with some sort of a rush that I had control.
And if you mess with me, I guess it's if
you mess with me, I'll hurt you.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
By the time he'd reached his twenties, Koklinsky had become
a petticrook and pool hustler. Then his life changed. In
nineteen sixty he met a pretty nineteen year old girl
named Barbara Pedron.

Speaker 8 (15:58):
He was absolutely.

Speaker 9 (16:01):
Flowers at the door every day, and considerate and romantic
and all of the things that anybody could could hope
for a dream for. He bought me beautiful things. We
went fun places. He was happiest when we were together.
He was happiest when just he and I were together.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
He and Barbara had three children, but with just an
eighth grade education, he could only get low paying jobs
that didn't pay enough to support his growing family.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
I didn't have the capability of getting a better paying job.
How was I going to push you on truck the
rest of my life make menial amount of money? I
couldn't have afforded one child, let alone three.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
He went to work at a film lab where he
began to pirate pornographic films and tell them to outside
sources connected to the Gambino crime family. This connection led
to other criminal activities, and it wasn't long before he
went from being a small time hood to a big
time killer. He worked as a head man and associated

(17:19):
with a gang that worked out of the notorious Gemini.

Speaker 10 (17:22):
Lounge in Brooklyn.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
Above the lounge was a mafia killing factory where victims
were killed and dismembered. Hacked bodies were packaged in plastic
bags and carted away. Koklinsky was the perfect enforcer. He
was brutal, and he knew how to intimidate. If people

(17:46):
owed money, they either paid up or paid with their lives.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Most people paid their bills, some didn't. I remember one guy,
he was holded a lot of money. Well, I guess
considered a little amount of money. Uh. He hid be Uh.

(18:14):
He thought he could hide behind the door. It was
a nice door, expensive door anyway. Uh, most people don't
realize that. Uh when you come to answer a door. Uh,
if there's a light in the background, the person on

(18:36):
the outside can look through the people and see the
guy coming to the door. So he came to the door.
I asked who it was, and uh, he looked through
to people and he never saw it hit him.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
For Richard Koklinsky, murder had become a way of life,
and the macabre became the commonplace.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Would you ever use a chainsaw? I mean to cut
someone up? Yes, I've done that, to dismember them, yes,
not to kill.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
'em though, mm.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
What was it like to cut somebody up with the wold?

Speaker 1 (19:29):
They? Uh, you know what?

Speaker 2 (19:30):
The guy's dead. How did you feel the custom guy
up with the with the chainsaw and why? I didn't
have any feeling one way? Then that that just that
that's the way it had to be, Gussie, Yes, yes

(19:52):
it was. Did it make it sick? No, I've had
a requests where the guy wanted to get his tongue
cut out and he also one of his tongue put
in his uh re rent So I'd believe it was

(20:14):
a definite point he wanted to get across. I haven't
experience that. I don't know if I should tell you,
uh that it might it probably would offend a lot
of people. Uh, I don't know. I don't think I should.

(20:37):
I'll go into that. Go ahead, Nah, it's not a
good one. Oh, go ahead to him. It was a man.
He was begging and pleading and uh and pray and

(21:01):
I guess, and he was pleased, garden all over the place.

(21:24):
So I told him he could have a half hour
to pray to God, and if God could come down
and change the circumstances, he'd have that time. But God

(21:47):
never showed up, and he never changed the circumstances. And
that was that. It wasn't too nice. That's one thing.

(22:12):
I shouldn't have done that one. I shouldn't have done
it that way.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
By the nineteen seventies, between his illegal activities and contract killings,
he was becoming a wealthy man. He now lived in
an expensive home in a middle class neighborhood with his
wife and three children.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Rishia, what did you charge for a head? If I
hit somebody, I wouldn't hit it for peanuts? I'd like
to have some money. I say, if I were to
do somebody, I want at least five figures, and at

(23:04):
least up in the better half, not the lower half
of the five figures.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Kuklinsky kept his criminal life secret from his family and neighbors.
He told them he was a businessman. No one knew
his business was murder.

Speaker 9 (23:20):
We were perfect, My children were never in trouble. We
were perfect. We were the all American family. I mean,
we had what seemed to be the perfect life. There
were wonderful times, and time with his family was the
only thing that he was really concerned. If he never
had to leave the house, he would have loved it.

(23:41):
He hated to have to travel, he hated to go away.
He came back as soon as he can. He wanted
to be home all the time. He wanted to be
with us all the time.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
I enjoyed that way of life. I felt the head
of something. I very seldom left the house unless I
had to, because I felt secure. These I felt very secure.

(24:15):
I tried to provide the best for them, as I
knew how might not have been the right way to go,
but it was for me the only way I tried
to never let anything touch the house. I brought nobody there.

(24:38):
My family was not exposed to anybody. I wanted to
show him the good side of life, not the bad side.

Speaker 8 (24:49):
Richard had a very, very sad childhood.

Speaker 9 (24:51):
You got the impression, or I knew, because he would
like say something gonna drop and change the subject, that
he was abused and that there was no love. He
grew up at absolutely without any love, without a doubt.
I mean, the first Christmas with my family, he was
an oree.

Speaker 8 (25:08):
He couldn't believe it. Who was a tree?

Speaker 9 (25:11):
And everyone was cooking special things, and there was lots
that we were laughing and it was fun, and he
kept saying, I can't believe that this is what happens.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
It was a Jekyll and High at existence. The way
it was, the way I wanted it to be, was
absolutely two different, two different lives. I wanted one life.
I had to have another life.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
This other life would interrupt. One Christmas Eve, while his
family was celebrating the holidays, Kuklinsky left his home to
collect on a bad debt. Business was business, even on
Christmas Eve.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
The man owed me money. He was giving me a
run around. I told him, I wasn't happy that he
wasn't gonna pay me. Hey, he had the attitude that, uh,
nobody could hurt him. I think he was wrong. Only

(26:20):
way he never saw Christmas? Who did you use? U?
A gun? Extremely loud inside of a car. Matter of fact,
my ears were ringing for a long time. What'd you do? Afterwards?

(26:41):
I walked away, got in my car and went home.
What'd you do when you got home? I put toys
together for the kids for Christmas. I sort of broadcast

(27:03):
while I was putting the toys together that came down
mob related killing. It was the first time I knew
I was mob related? How'd you feel? I was annoyed.

(27:26):
I couldn't get the damn wagon together.

Speaker 9 (27:30):
I never questioned him, and you just knew, N don't
do it.

Speaker 8 (27:34):
Don't ask uh.

Speaker 9 (27:35):
If he got up at two o'clock in the morning
or during dinner and put on his shoes and walked
out the door, you said bye. You didn't say where
are you going or why are you going? And it
was just understood that that's the way it was. He
was very private. You only knew what he wanted to do.

Speaker 8 (27:53):
To know.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
By the nineteen eighties, after twenty five years of working
as a hitman for the mob, Richard Koklinsky became the
head of his own crime ring. He developed new ways
to profit from murder. The case of Paul Hoffman was
typical of the way he operated. On the afternoon of

(28:15):
April twenty ninth, nineteen eighty two, Hoffman arrived at a
warehouse leased by Koklinsky. Like numerous victims of the Iceman,
he had been set up for a phony business deal.

Speaker 11 (28:28):
Paul Hoffman was a pharmacist and he was looking for
a quick buck. He was out to purchase a drug
called Tagament, which was at the time a wonder drug
for ulcers. And he felt that if he could purchase
a large quantity of this Tagment at a very low price,

(28:52):
that he could indeed make.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
A huge profit on that.

Speaker 11 (28:58):
And that was the alleged deal that he had with
Richard Koklinsky.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
When Paul Hoffman showed up to buy the Tagament, he
was carrying twenty five thousand dollars in cash.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
He took the bag door, opened it showed me a
whole mess of money, mess of cash. He said, I
got the money right here. And he came back. He says,
what are we gonna do. What are we gonna do? Well,
how am I gonna get this merchandise? I put the

(29:36):
gun under his chin and I said, there is no merchandise,
and I shot him. He didn't die. The gun jammed.

(29:59):
He was gurgling. I had hit him. It was uh,
but was pouring out of his mouth and uh. He

(30:26):
was in a I would imagine a lot. It looked
like he was in a lot of pain. So there
was a tire iron in there. I took the tire
iron and hit him with it, which knocked him out,
and he died. I then took him and put him

(30:47):
in a fifty gallon drum, put it on the side
of a motel. It was behind Harry's corner. I listened
to the people. I went in Harry's every morning. The
thing was there for a long time. I looked at
it every day. It was there. I went in Harry's

(31:12):
every day. One day it was just missing. Continued to
go in Harry's to see if anything was said about it.
Nothing was said. I don't know what happened to the drum.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
By the nineteen eighties, Koklinsky was involved in narcotics, pornography, arms, dealing, money, laundering, hijacking,
and contract killing on a worldwide basis. He was also
pressing fifty and getting tired. He started to make mistakes.
He began to leave traces, and law enforcement officers who

(31:48):
had suspected him over the years began gathering evidence. Koklinsky
would protect himself by killing anyone who could testify against him.
On December twenty seven of nineteen eighty two, a body
was discovered at the York Motel in New Jersey. The
body was identified as Gary Smith, thirty seven. Smith had

(32:10):
been given cyanide and then strangled to death. This was
the first of many mistakes Kuklinsky was to commit.

Speaker 7 (32:19):
Gary Smith was found under a motel bed in New Jersey,
as I recall, where some twenty people had used the
room in five days and nobody had realized it was
a rotting body underneath it. The body was found in
a decomposed state. It was very hot in weather. Smith

(32:41):
would have not been identified as a murder victim if
he had died only of the cyanide. If the cyanide
had worked and he had died and he didn't need
to be strangled, that ligature mark around the neck wouldn't
have been seen, and he would have been possibly a
drug overdose or lots of other things of a non

(33:03):
homicidal nature would have to be considered.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
On September twenty fifth, nineteen eighty three, the body of
Lewis Masgay was found, as he had done many times before.
To confuse the time of death, Koplinsky had frozen the
body in an industrial freezer. This was the murder that
earned him the name of Iceman. This murder was also

(33:27):
his second deadly mistake.

Speaker 7 (33:31):
He did too good a job in that body because
he left that body in the freezer for two years,
then took the body out and dumped it in Rockland County,
and the body was found before it had fully thawt out.
So the doctor doing the autopsy the medical was having
in Rockland County when he opened the body up, saw
ice inside the body in the summer's day and said,

(33:54):
there's something wrong here. This guy could not have died
two days ago the way he looks like from the outside.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
On May fourteenth, nineteen eighty three, a bicyclist was riding
down a lonely road in a wooded area and saw
a buzzard feeding on a body. It was Daniel Deppner
forty four, the third business associate of Richard Koklinsky to
be found dead. The body count grew. There would soon

(34:22):
be five unsolved murders with one thing in common. The
last person to see the victims alive had been Richard Koklinsky.
After thirty years of getting away with murder, Richard Koklinsky's
time was running out. He had been under investigation for
three years and the police were beginning to put the
pieces together.

Speaker 11 (34:44):
What I told my superiors in Trenton was that, hey, look,
you know, we can check with the FBI, and we
can see that there's a certain number of given a
serial killer roaming around this country of ours.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
But take a good hard look at what we got here.

Speaker 11 (35:07):
We got Richie Koklinsky, and there's only one of him.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
In nineteen eighty six, a division of the New Jersey
Criminal Justice Department set up a task force made up
of federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies. The task
force analyzed existing investigative material and gathered new information. They
had one mission to arrest and convict Richard Kouklinsky.

Speaker 4 (35:35):
When I first read the file, which at the time
was nothing more than a compilation of several different unsolved homicides.
The more you looked for connections, the less you found.
In this particular case, because there was different types of murders,
different devices used. The final method that was used was,
in fact, the introduction of a undercover federal agent, Dominic Polophone,

(35:58):
who was able to win mister Koklinsky's come confidence and
was able to record conversations where he detailed his participation
in these murders.

Speaker 12 (36:06):
I portrayed myself as a hit man, told him I
worked for the uh wise guys downtown New York, and
my my brother was a good fellow downtown and uh
I went by the name of Dominic Michael Provinzano. You're
willing to go on a on a on a contract

(36:27):
if the price is right.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
I don't talk to anybody.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, sure, and you made it.

Speaker 12 (36:32):
Tell me your way is nice and clean and nothing
fucking shows up.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Oh it may show, my friend, but it's quiet, it's
not messy, it's not as noisy, it's not uh you know.

Speaker 4 (36:43):
Yeah, but how the fuck do you put it together?

Speaker 5 (36:45):
Like you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Oh, there's always a way, there's a will as a way.

Speaker 12 (36:49):
My friend, we used to sit down, we talk either
we'd built to those tables over there and get away
from people, and we discuss.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
How to murder people. You know, he's had a few
bottlems I wanna dispose of I haven't the rats. I
wanna get rid of it.

Speaker 8 (37:04):
Yeah, don't the fucking thing.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
I don't understand.

Speaker 12 (37:06):
Don't you use a fucking piece of iron to get
rip these fucking people used this fucking uh Cyo iv.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Methy he do a knife and calm.

Speaker 4 (37:14):
It became apparent at later points in the investigation at
mister Koklinsky uh fully intended on murdering Dominic Polophone in
addition to the victims that were being discussed at the time.
They were having these tape recorded conversations, so he could
pretty much tell Dominic Polophone anything because he knew shortly
that Uh he had plans for mister Polophone too.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
He put that.

Speaker 8 (37:37):
Stuff in the myth.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
He spray it in somebody's faith and they go to sleep.

Speaker 12 (37:43):
No shit, long as he's dead, that's the bottom line.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Well, that's the thing is then, no matter how it
was done, I mean, I know guys that went to
sleep and never woke up again.

Speaker 12 (37:50):
I mean, you know, he says he had one guy.
He went and get a hamburger. They'd come back and
he put the cyanide on his hamburger and were sitting
down and he's telling me. He says, you wouldn't believe it.
He says, I'm waiting for this guy to kill over.
He says, because once you'd cyan I'd usually would.

Speaker 5 (38:08):
You'd roll over.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
And that's it.

Speaker 6 (38:10):
He says.

Speaker 12 (38:11):
This guy had the constitution of a fucking bully.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
He says, you wouldn't believe it.

Speaker 12 (38:15):
He says he wouldn't die. And we're both laughing about this,
and I'm saying, in the back of my mind, I said,
holy God, I said, look at this. I said, what
kind of person is this? I said, I said to
myself right there, I said, you better cover your butt.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
I said, because you.

Speaker 12 (38:30):
Just don't know what this guy and he'd be kidding
about it, and I'd be laughing. In the back of
my mind, I'm saying, this is the devil, no question
about it.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
This is the devil. I know that card.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
On December seventeenth, nineteen eighty six, the Special Task Force
set up a roadblock and arrested Richard Kouklinsky outside his
home in Dumont.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
New Jersey.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
They felt they had all the evidence they needed for
a conviction.

Speaker 11 (39:01):
The whole road was blocked off of cows uh local police,
State Police, Division of Criminal Justice Investigators, County personnel. It
was no place for him to go, so he stopped
his car.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
Uh.

Speaker 11 (39:19):
He was told to get out of the car, and
he did not.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
So he was.

Speaker 11 (39:30):
Taken out of the car and he was placed face
down on a street in a position where we thought
we were safe. And then I handcuffed her.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
That guy's big.

Speaker 11 (39:51):
I did everything I could to get one click on
a handcuff.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
And UH.

Speaker 11 (39:56):
Later on, UH, I tried to put leg irons on him,
and the no way they would go on. They just
wouldn't go on.

Speaker 13 (40:04):
Law enforcement authorities have arrested one of the most notorious
contract killers in state history. A self employed Bergen County
man is behind bars, charged with five murders, and prosecutors
are investigating his involvement in dozens more.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
This is done warrant unnecessary. These guys watched too many movies.

Speaker 9 (40:27):
He is such a cold blooded killer they call him
the Iceman.

Speaker 13 (40:30):
After being convicted of two murders, he confessed to two
others in court today.

Speaker 14 (40:34):
I shouted George Malman five times, Lewis masgay on Julia
Curris nineteen eighty one. I shot him once in the
back of the head.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
When the judge asked him why he had killed the
two men, Koklinsky replied.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
There is due to business.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Dominic Polophrone's tapes had nailed Koklinsky, but in court the
iceman I greeted the undercover cup with a smile.

Speaker 8 (41:04):
He seemed to be quite cheery about saying hello to you.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Well, I reciprocated.

Speaker 12 (41:09):
The only thing is, uh, I'm going home, and uh
he's going to a different environment at the present time.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
MM.

Speaker 8 (41:23):
It wasn't real to us.

Speaker 9 (41:24):
We've just had a hard time dealing with what was
in the press, and I kept saying, no way, and
I don't believe it. And then when I actually heard
his voice, you know, in court, it was very hard to.

Speaker 8 (41:38):
Believe that he's talked like that. It was very, very
difficult to believe.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
I've done it always as far as your tone or
heard too many things, I haven't tried.

Speaker 11 (41:49):
No matter how it was done.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
I mean, I know guys that went to sleep and
have a little comfort time ago.

Speaker 4 (41:57):
The consensus of the shut Up r state, county, and
local law enforcement agencies that were involved in this investigation
is that Richard Koklinsky is one of the most dangerous
criminals we have ever come across in this state. Further,
it's our feeling that he is of such a diabolical,

(42:19):
methodical type of killer that it's very possible that when
all is said and done, we still may never know
how many people he has actually killed.

Speaker 9 (42:32):
What Richard has been accused of and found guilty of
and spoke to you about, goes against God and man
very strong feelings. I am totally anti violence. I mean
as all my children, and I can't make those wrongs right.

(42:57):
I can't make them right in my own mind.

Speaker 8 (43:05):
We are Richard.

Speaker 9 (43:07):
Koklinsky's family, and we aren't ourselves anymore. Where where Richard
Koklinsky's family.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
I've never felt sorry for anything I've done other than
hurting my family. The only thing I feel sorry for.
I'm not looking for forgiveness and I'm not repenting. No,

(43:49):
I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I do want my family to
forgive me. Oh boy, I'm gonna make this one. Well, shit,

(44:17):
this would never be me, this would not be mean.
I feel for my family. M you see the Iceman

(44:47):
cry not very macho. But I've heard people that mean
everything to me, but the only people that mean anything

(45:16):
to me. I would move heaven, hell and anything in

(45:50):
between to get to you. Old You wouldn't be safe
anyway if I was mad at you. And that's that bold,
that that's truth. I've went up against people. You could
pull a gun on.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Man.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
If I'm mad at you, I'm coming forward. You'd have
to shoot me to stop me. And if you don't
kill me, you're stupid. That's the next time you see me,
and I will kill you. Is your Klinsky? Werena have

(46:37):
to doctor Mays chair your arms out.

Speaker 10 (46:42):
In nineteen ninety one, Richard Koklinsky, a contract killer known
as the Iceman, was interviewed by HBO for an America
Undercover special.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
How many people would be killed? All right?

Speaker 5 (47:02):
The approximate guess approximately will be home more than one hundred.

Speaker 10 (47:18):
After a lifetime of killing for hire, Koklinsky was finally
caught by an undercover ATF agent wearing a hidden wire.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
You're willing to go on a.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Contract at the price is right. I don't talk to anybody, but.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
How to put it together?

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Like you know what I'm saying, Oh, there's always a
way that the will is the way.

Speaker 4 (47:40):
My friend, Richard Koklinsky is one of the most dangerous
criminals we have ever come across in the state. He
murdered by guns, He murdered by strangulation. He murdered by
putting poison on victim's food. He did all of this
at the same time while he's exhibiting a normal placid

(48:02):
family existence. His wife's children were uninvolved in his criminal activities.
Yet we are faced with evidence convicting evidence of numerous
grizzly murders.

Speaker 10 (48:17):
In nineteen eighty six, the ATF and the New Jersey
Organized Crime Task Force set up a roadblock outside Koklinsky's home.
It took five men to bring down the six foot five,
three hundred pound killer and force handcuffs on him. The
iceman's career as a master criminal was finally over. Richard

(48:42):
Koklinsky knows he will never get out of jail. With
nothing left to lose, Koklinsky reveals new secrets about the
years he spent as a contract killer to the Gambino
crime family and tells what happened in his life that
turned him into a man. Law enforcement called the iceman.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
I hated my father. If I could have, I'd probably
would have killed him, probably would have felt good about it.
Though my father would beat me just just if I
looked at him. He gave me this impersonal feeling I

(49:29):
have to when people die in front of me, especially
loud mouth people. Loud mount people will remind me of
my father. Once a loud mouth person starts with me,
I love it. That's the only excuse I need.

Speaker 10 (49:47):
One night in a bar, a loud mouth made the
mistake of insulting the eighteen year old Koplinsky in front
of people. A couple of hours later, the iceman saw
his chance to get the yes.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
I come out of this bar, and I see him
sleeping in his car as I got you, a little sucker.

Speaker 5 (50:11):
Now I got you.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
I canna give you a lung, gonna light your fire,
And I did. I got myself in a bottle some
gasoline and I threw it in the car with him,
and he was screaming and yelling and burning, and the

(50:36):
car burnt. And I could smell him walk down the block,
and I could hear him as I turned the corner.
We're still yelling. This was a personal thing I see
This was a guy I disliked.

Speaker 8 (50:56):
What did he do you?

Speaker 2 (50:58):
He made me mad.

Speaker 10 (51:16):
By the age of twenty five, Richard Koklinsky had no
problem with murder, but now he wanted to get paid
for it. There was money in contract killing. To prove himself,
he auditioned for mafia coppo. Roy Domeyo.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Said, well, I would expect you to if you came
with me, I'd expect you to if I told you
to whack somebody, you'd whack him with die any question.
So I said, well, I could probably do that. He says,
you probably could do it, or could you do it?

(51:59):
Did you do you think he could do it? And
I said, yeah, I think I could do it. So
he told Freddy to get the car. Got the car,
he and I got in the back seat. Freddie was driving.
We drove someplace, I don't know where. It was, some
place in there Ork, and we were sitting there for

(52:22):
a while. We got to where we were going. We
were sitting there for a while and the man came
in the distance. He was walking his dog. It looked like.

Speaker 15 (52:32):
Said all right, take this guy down. I said, which,
what which guy we talking about here? So he says
the man walking the.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
Dog as I got out of the car and I
started walking till as the man, and the man was
walking his dog just like a irregular guy. As he
passed me to turn around in shadow, Freddy and Roy

(53:11):
pulled up in a car. I get in a car
and we drove away. And that is how I got
involved with Roy. I been doing things like that.

Speaker 10 (53:33):
Roy Demeo's hangout was the Gemini Lounge in Brooklyn, New York.
It was a house of horrors where over a hundred
people were murdered, chopped up, and disposed of by Demeyo
and his gang of lethal contract killers. After proving himself,
Koklinsky quickly became one of Tomeo's favorite enforcers. Demeyo ordered

(53:57):
the hits and Koklinsky executed them without question.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
He wanted this guy taking care of but he wanted
to talk to him first. So when I got to
the place, I asked the man for the money. So
the guy says he didn't have it, and Roy would

(54:24):
just have to wait until he got the money to
pay him, and that was that he'd have to wait.
And so I said to the man, I said, well,
you have to then talk to him. He wants to
talk to you. So I dial the phone number and
he got on the phone and I said, he wants
to talk to you. So he was talking to him,

(54:49):
and I guess they were acting like everything was all right,
because he got off the phone and he handed me
the phone back. He says, yeah, I tell you he'd wait.
He's in the frame of mind. I don't worry about
he wants to talk to you. Now. I picked up
the phone and he said kill him. So I shot
him right up the phone and walked away. I am

(55:22):
just a hard working, expededatic of sorts because my self
as a person who did something that somebody wanted done,
and they paid me a good price.

Speaker 10 (55:41):
In the early eighties, the Gambinos were feeling the heat
of an intense investigation, which reached as high as their boss,
Paul Costellano. As the pressure from law enforcement grew, a
family began to worry about potential witnesses. One in particular
presented a major problem. His name was Peter Callabro. The

(56:03):
family ordered a hit, and Koklinsky was given the contract.
On March fourteenth, nineteen eighty, Koklinsky drove for hours on
a snow covered road in saddle River, New Jersey, waiting
for a call to come through on his walkie talkie.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
I get a call that they're on their way. So
now they're coming, and it's snowing. The roads are very bad,
a lot of snow was looking at slide and I
was in a van. So what I figured is, at

(56:51):
the last moment, I had a different plane with it.
At the last moment, I decided, well, I'm gonna double
park this thing. This will give me the edge because
this will make him have only one way to come by,
and that's he has to come right by to this van.
And I go to the back of the van and

(57:12):
I go out the back door. I take the shotgun
with me cross so I kneel down and I will
come to the van so I can see where he's
approximately at. And so I watch him come up to
where he's almost in the front of the van, and

(57:33):
I stood up, and as he's going by the van,
I find I never knew the man, you know, what
he looked like or what his job was. Then I

(57:54):
found out the next day that he was uh police.
What had I been told to do him? Anyway? And
I knew he was a police, I most likely would
have done it anyway. I don't think I would have
said no.

Speaker 10 (58:17):
Koklinsky had killed a cop, a cop who had gone
bad selling information to the Gambinos, a cop who was
eliminated before he could turn state's witness. For Koklinsky, contracts
like the Collabro murder were strictly business. They gave him
the money he needed for his family. The iceman was

(58:42):
leading a double life. He lived on a quiet street
in Bergen County, New Jersey, surrounded by neighbors who had
no idea they were living next door to a mafia hitman.
He was determined that no one, not even his own family,
would ever find out who he really was.

Speaker 8 (59:02):
I never questioned him, and you just knew, don't do it.

Speaker 9 (59:07):
Don't ask If he got up at two o'clock in
the morning or during dinner and put on his shoes
and walked out the door, you said bye. You didn't
say where are you going or why are you going?
And it was just understood that that's the.

Speaker 8 (59:20):
Way it was.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
I was the happiest when I was with Barbera. Never
involved anything I ever did, never told her anything I did.
If I did, I probably would have shocked the pants
off She knew I had a violent temper, and I
did have a violent temper. I don't think she thought
I would go as far as I did.

Speaker 10 (59:42):
God Richard's time with his family was sacred and any
interference would throw him into a rage. It made him
even more angry if it happened. And during the holidays,

(01:00:05):
this fella and he owed me about sixteen hundred dollars.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
So here we come Christmas Eve and I go there
and he says, nah, come with me. We'll go out,
have a good time with a party, meet some broads,
with this, that and the other thing. And I said, no,
I gotta I would really like the money. I gotta
buy something. And you know, he gave me a a story,

(01:00:36):
bull story. So I left there. I was a little
bit upset, got on the bus, went home. I was
putting the toys together for the kids, and this thing
was really bugging me, annoying me. We just making my

(01:01:03):
whole disposition bad. Thought. It just occurred to me that bullshit.

Speaker 10 (01:01:10):
It was Christmas Eve, after midnight, his family was sleeping,
and Quinsky got in his car and drove to New
York City.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
I went to the bar. They told me he just left,
and he was parked a couple of blocks down in
the parking lot put he did. The parking lot was closed,
but he he was parked in there. I saw his car,
and his car was running, but it had snow on it.

(01:01:44):
So I knocked on the door and he said, hey,
how I ain't go ahead to see you. I'm gonna
sit down side and go walk around the pastor's side
to sit down talking to him. And I said, look,
I really need the money. I says, you know it's
not right, you do. You just been playing me like
a fool here. I had this pistol in my hand,

(01:02:04):
and he just was annoying me to no end when
this babbling and he was just going on and on,
and I fired, and I couldn't see a damn thing
cause there was snow on the windows, and when that

(01:02:29):
flash went off, I just had spots before my eyes.
My ears were ring because the noise inside the car
when the the gun went off. Couldn't hear, couldn't see.
Then I panicked, cause now I don't know what's going
on anyway. I had caught the guy in the temple,

(01:02:58):
and as he moved back, the second shot caught him
in under the chin, all about the time I could see.
I reached in the man's pocket and he had a
roll of money. I took my sixteen hundred dollars off him,

(01:03:20):
put the rest of the money of him that was
his in his pocket, got out of the car and
walked away. And that's when had happened one Christmas Eve
in New York City.

Speaker 10 (01:03:53):
The ice man had killed my gun by knife, my
Molotov cocktail and cyanide. But he also liked to experiment cross.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Was I just popped the guy in the forehead with
Actually it was just seeing if it would work.

Speaker 6 (01:04:15):
What was he doing at the time?

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Looking at me?

Speaker 6 (01:04:18):
Well, was he sitting down or were you standing over him?

Speaker 16 (01:04:22):
Or no?

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
He actually bent down and looking the car window like
I was asking him directions. I didn't know the man.

Speaker 6 (01:04:38):
Was this a contract murder or was it something out
of anger? Or was it a personal thing?

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Neither? What?

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
What was it?

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
I just wanted to see if this thing would work.

Speaker 6 (01:04:55):
You mean, you're experimenting on somebody, right? Did it work?

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Sure? Did? Went halfway into his it.

Speaker 10 (01:05:10):
Koklinsky was always looking for new ways to get away
with murder. In the eighties, a man who was nicknamed
mister Softy teamed up with Koklinsky. This harmless looking ice
cream vendor was in reality an army trained demolitions expert

(01:05:30):
who was a violent and vicious killer.

Speaker 16 (01:05:35):
Mister Softie was an individual but nam of Robert Prange.
He used to operate a mister Softy truck. That's why
he got the name mister Softie. He became friendly with Kokuinsky,
very friendly with him, and it is our opinion that
that friendship led to Richard Koklinsky learning a lot about

(01:06:01):
uh killing with different types of chemicals, including cyanide.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
He taught me a lot basically, but he was extremely crazy.
But he would read all kinds of books of destruction
and all kinds of way to destroy somebody. He used

(01:06:33):
to go around this mister Softy truck. That's how he
used to spot people and get the outlay of the land,
you know, the way they were in easy ways, and
sometimes he eat do it right from the truck.

Speaker 6 (01:06:47):
And he sold ice cream.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Yes he did, sold the soft He had one of
those mister Softy trucks. Did you ever see them? That's
what he saw.

Speaker 6 (01:06:55):
And he sold ice the little kids in.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
The Alad, Yes he did. And that's what he did,
so he'd go into these neighborhoods and saw, I screamed
to the kids, and maybe kill one of their fathers.

Speaker 10 (01:07:15):
On August ninth, nineteen eighty four, mister Softy was found
dead hanging out of the driver's side seat and his
Mister Softy ice cream truck. He had been killed by
multiple gunshot wounds to the head.

Speaker 16 (01:07:41):
I think Kokwinsky killed him because he used him for
his information, He used him for his dodge. He probably
brought him around, brought him with him on certain jobs
that he did, and it was it was time for
the boss to make the decision that he didn't want

(01:08:02):
any more loose ends. He may have said something the
wrong way to Richie.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Who knows.

Speaker 16 (01:08:06):
Whatever it was, Koklinsky, in my opinion, made the decision
to kill him.

Speaker 10 (01:08:17):
After Prongay's murder, Coquincy was hired for a dangerous contract
no one else would touch. It was here in a
crowded discotheque that the cyanide killing techniques learned from mister
Softy paid off.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
Couldn't get to this person. He was in a disco,
So I was really in a bad way because there
was a time schedule involved and I happened to be

(01:08:55):
watching these people, and there was a couple of gay
people dancing and whatever, and nobody was paying them no
mind whatsoever. They were walking anywhere, going anywhere, because people
basically don't look at gay people. But the idea came

(01:09:15):
to me, Yeah, trying to act gay. But how the
hell am I gonna get by a three hundred pounds
gay man? I mean, you know, that's a little bit
far fetched. So I went to the extreme of far fetched.

(01:09:36):
I got this loudest costume you'd ever want to see.
I mean, I went full blown gay person, because maybe
out of gay people are gonna be pissed off of me,
but I'm not saying anything bad about them. But I
got this canary yellow sweater and these bright pants and

(01:09:59):
U I got these elevated shoes, which I'm told to
be good, and I got these thing shoes on, and
I acted like a full blown gay person. I mean,
and I got on this thing. I'm doing this like
dancing bit. And I get onto this thing and they

(01:10:19):
got these lights and I hate those lights, by the way,
those strobe lights. Man, I hate those lights. They can't
see good with them lights, and it messes up my eyes.
So anyway, I'm trying to get close to this guy.
So I'm doing this crazy thing. I'm acting real swishy.
I guess that's what you recall it. And I get

(01:10:41):
up close to this guy and I bump into him.
But everybody's bumping in everybody, and he had a hart
attime because they had hyperthermitino. I bumped into him. I

(01:11:08):
popped him with the needle or was it the needle
in his case?

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
How did that?

Speaker 10 (01:11:30):
There was no doubt that Richard Koklinsky was a stone
cold killer, and most people thought that's why he was
called the Iceman. But law enforcement had another reason for
pinning this name on him. They called him the Iceman
because to confuse the time of death, he would take
his victims and put them in a freezer for long

(01:11:53):
periods of time. One such victim was a man named
Louis Masgay.

Speaker 7 (01:12:01):
He did too good a job on this body. After
leaving the body in a freezer for over two years,
he then took the body out and dumped it where
it was found before it had thought out. So when
the medical examiner does the autopsy and opens the body up,

(01:12:24):
he finds ice inside the body on a warm summer's day.
The medical examiner says, there's something wrong here. This guy
couldn't have died in the past.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Few days.

Speaker 10 (01:12:42):
After the discovery of the half frozen body of Lewis Masgay,
the noose began to tighten around Koklinsky and his boss,
Roy de Mayo. Under pressure from law enforcement. De Mayo
began to act erratically, and the family felt he was
about to crack and test to fly against them. There
was no question in their minds.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
He had to go.

Speaker 10 (01:13:08):
In nineteen eighty three, the Mayo's body was found in
a trunk of a car. He had been shot five
times and had been dead a week. There were some
who thought Koklinsky might be responsible.

Speaker 6 (01:13:23):
Do you know anything about his murder with the Mayo?

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
Yeah? Yeah, lived as useless.

Speaker 10 (01:13:35):
And he was.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Running the wrong way. Apparently everybody thought he was going
to run to the law.

Speaker 6 (01:13:56):
What did you feel when he was killed? How'd you
feel about it?

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
I was all broken up over. I got a bridge
for the too. I want to sell you what. I
got a bridge for you too. I want to sell
you a bridge. I wasn't broken up both. That was
my attempt at levity. But I thought at the time.
We couldn't happen to a nicer person. If somebody had

(01:14:27):
to die that day, it was a good day for
him to die.

Speaker 10 (01:14:35):
Over the next three years, the New Jersey Organized Crime
Task Force concentrated on closing in on Koklinsky. When Koklinsky
began to feel cornered, he started eliminating anyone who could
implicate him in his criminal activities. If he called you friend,
you had a problem. Yesterday's friend soon became tomorrow's enemy.

(01:15:01):
One of those friends turned enemy was a man who
had been Koklinsky's partner. His name was George Malaband.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
Georgie Boy. Yeah I liked them, Actually, yeah, I really
liked them, one of the few people I ever really liked.

Speaker 10 (01:15:28):
But Maliband had developed some bad habits. He wracked up
thousands of dollars in gambling debts to loan sharks. Kaklinsky
had vouched for him and told Malaband he'd better pay up.
Then Malaband made a fatal mistake. He told Koklinsky that
if he didn't back off, he would hurt his family.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
Which really struck a nerve with me. It upset me,
but I was trying not to get upset with it
that time. Because I figured he was just nervous maybe
and he was just spouting off. But uh, apparently he wasn't.

Speaker 10 (01:16:10):
But the iceman couldn't forget that Malaban had threatened his family,
and several weeks later he began to plan his murder.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
We got in the band and uh, that's George. He said,
you really sincere with the fact that that you had
hurt my family and to get back at me, And
he said, that's the only way I could get you.

(01:16:45):
I could get over on you, get you to do
what I want you to do, is to hurt your family.
I said, but that's a stupid thing to say, Georgie,
because he's known how badly or how sincere I am
about my family. I said, for you to say something
like that, you must realize you're gonna make me mad.
He said, no, you won't be mad, he said, because

(01:17:07):
you'd be afraid that something would happen to your family.
I said, well, you're very wrong about that, Georgia. I said,
because I'm gonna put a stop to that. As a
matter of fact, I'm gonna put a stop to that
right now. And I shot him five times. I could
see them entering as he was right here, you just

(01:17:30):
sitting in the van, and I'm in the driver. See
y drudge, You boy was over here in the next seat,
which was you know, just like that, and I went
pop pop pop, and then I went pop pop, and
I could see the material moving on and uh on

(01:17:51):
his jacket as these things, actually they made little marks
on every thing on the jacket. I guess they were
burn marks.

Speaker 10 (01:18:02):
Kaklinsky's favorite way of disposing of bodies was putting them
in barrels. But with a six foot, three hundred pound
George Maliband, it wasn't easy.

Speaker 2 (01:18:12):
That's when I got I mean, I had a problem
with one leg. The hell of a problem with a leg.
I'll tell you, matter what I did, I couldn't get
that leg in it. So I had to cut it,
put the top on, and I drove down to Jersey City,

(01:18:39):
where I dumped him.

Speaker 10 (01:18:47):
The next morning, a passerby noticed a deaded steel drum
turned over on its side. When he walked over to
get a closer look, he saw a pair of legs,
one of them bloody and hacked. The body was George Malaband.
Police knew Koklinsky was the last person to see him alive.

(01:19:12):
The New Jersey Organized Crime Task Force now had just
one mission to gather the evidence to arrest and convict
Richard Koklinsky.

Speaker 4 (01:19:25):
The final method that was used was in fact, the
introduction of a undercover federal agent, Dominic Polophone, who was
able to win mister Koklinsky's confidence and was able to
record conversations where he detailed his participation in these murders.

Speaker 12 (01:19:41):
I portrayed myself as a hit man toll m I
worked for the wise Guys Downtown New York, and my
brother was a good fellow at Downtown, and I went
by the name of Dominic Michael Provenzano and.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
Part of the apolom I wanted to dispose that I
haven't the bread that I want to get rid of. That. Yeah,
I'm the fucking thing. I heard a stet.

Speaker 6 (01:20:04):
Don't you use a fuck a piece of.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
Mind to give him? Used his fucking zylv bety into
a knife and calm.

Speaker 10 (01:20:12):
The tapes made by the undercover agent had nailed Richard Koklinsky,
and his career as a contract killer was finally over.
At his trial, his family learned for the first time
that they really didn't know the Richard Koklinsky, who was
also capable of being the deadly ice man. Richard Koklinsky

(01:20:37):
is now serving multiple life sentences in New Jersey State
Maximum Security Prison. Ironically, his younger brother, Joey, is also
serving a life sentence in the same prison. When Joey
was twenty five, he was convicted of raping and murdering
a twelve year old girl. After he strangled the girl,

(01:21:02):
he dragged her body over two adjoining rooftops and threw
her and her pet dog to the street forty feet below.

Speaker 6 (01:21:19):
I want to talk about your brother or do you
want to talk about talk about because we never brought
up your brother in the first show.

Speaker 2 (01:21:27):
Well, we'll talk about it. I'm we'll talk about it.
He's been here for twenty five seven years something like that.
He's been here a long time, twenty five years. I
think I'll help me today exactly. I'm pretty sure it's
pretty close.

Speaker 6 (01:21:46):
And he's here for murder.

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
Yes, what happened?

Speaker 6 (01:21:53):
How old was he when he was young?

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
Man? Was in his twentieth I believe.

Speaker 6 (01:22:02):
And what wrong went wrong in his case? Do you
think he still uh was a product? Also, you know
what you went through.

Speaker 2 (01:22:09):
You come from the same father. Do you see him Richard,
I pass him.

Speaker 6 (01:22:16):
Why do you say this? Hello? I keep on walking?

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
I do in Joe? How you take care?

Speaker 6 (01:22:25):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:27):
Told you? I have do all short stories. That's that's
being over friendly with my brother.

Speaker 6 (01:22:36):
Does he try to talk to you?

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
He says less to me. As a matter of fact.
Sometimes he doesn't even answer me. I don't think thinking
about it, that's too bad. Depends how you look at it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:55):
If by some uh miracle, Richard, you've got out of
here tomorrow, let's it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
Hm.

Speaker 6 (01:23:03):
So let's for the second argument. What would you do?
Would you go back to that life?

Speaker 5 (01:23:10):
Or would you do now?

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
It's past me? Now I have ten years without violence.
I don't really look forward to violence anymore. I don't
even think I could play the game anymore, probably get
myself shot the first time out. I wouldn't do it anyway.

(01:23:33):
I'd look to retire and a nice quiet place, someplace
no banging doors, no people yelling and screaming. Some way.
If I wanted to think, I could just sit there
and think, is.

Speaker 6 (01:23:54):
There anything you wouldn't do?

Speaker 8 (01:23:56):
What you're for?

Speaker 6 (01:23:57):
Uh a contract?

Speaker 1 (01:23:59):
Murder?

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:24:01):
What wouldn't you do?

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
I wouldn't kill a child and most likely wouldn't kill
a hormer.

Speaker 6 (01:24:21):
Did you ever let anyone go for whatever reason? Did
you ever decide to let someone go?

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):
Yes, but then I thought better of the idea in child.

Speaker 6 (01:24:36):
Him anyway, Did you ever murder anyone you liked?

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
All my friends did at one point in time.

Speaker 5 (01:24:48):
I'm sure I liked 'em, but not at the moment
killing him.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):
I might I even liked him then. I don't know.
Among thieves, there's no such thing to see. Because I
was put in prison by a man I knew thirty
years and I liked him. Big mistake. I had one

(01:25:15):
friend too many. I'm now serving multi life sentences because
of my one friend, and he's the only friend I
didn't kill. Awful. Yeah, I don't know anything about Hawfe.

Speaker 6 (01:25:59):
Jimmy Hoppler, the scuttle, but let's say, let's put it
that way.

Speaker 2 (01:26:03):
Shuttle buddies in a Japanese car supposedly was picked up,
put it in a drum, put it in the trunk
of a car, put it in a crusher with other cars,
crushed and shipped overseas. That's what I heard. Don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:26:24):
I think the last time I asked him that you
thought he was a uh toyota

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
Could be a tile some little Japanese car