March 28, 2024 • 56 mins
Our friend Bernard Grant, Ph.D. is many things, all of them remarkable. Multiply neurodivergent, they are an Autistic advocate, life coach to Autistics and parents seeking insight from an Autistic person on how better to support their Autistic children, neurodiversity trainer, award-winning writer of fiction and essays, and talented editor. To say that our conversation opened our eyes and minds would be the understatement of the century. You do not want to miss the opportunity hear their unique, clarifying perspective on everything from Autistic vs. neurotypical culture, racelessness and why racializing people perpetuates racism, and how they finally learned to love themself and disregard the judgements of (neurotypical) others during the calm and stillness provided by the pandemic. We loved our discussion so much, we look forward to having them back soon. Listen now, and you'll walk away with potentially life-changing insight!
Links for resources mentioned in our discussion, and some definitions of terms that many may not be familiar with, are below.
LINKS:
Bernard's professional website: bernardgrant.com
Follow Bernard on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bernardgrant
High five habit with Mel Robbins on Instagram: @high5habit
Sheena Michele Mason's substack on racelessness: racelessness.substack.com
Yoga Nidra meditation playlist on YouTube
Percival Everett's novel: Erasure
TERMS:
PDA: Pathological demand avoidance, while framed negatively by the medical establishment, applies to a neurotype with an intense need for autonomy and whose nervous system is set on alert by external demands.
Info dumping: A form of communication reserved for trusted connections, in which a person shares in-depth, detailed information about a specific interest or passion.
Dyspraxia: Also sometimes called developmental co-ordination disorder (DCD), a neurological difference affecting movement and co-ordination (not related to intelligence or intellect). Increases the difficulty of tasks requiring balance or fine-tuned motor skills, like playing sports or learning to drive a car.
CREDITS:
Hosted by Dara and Amber.
Music by Amanda Zorzi.
Editing by Dara.
Links for resources mentioned in our discussion, and some definitions of terms that many may not be familiar with, are below.
LINKS:
Bernard's professional website: bernardgrant.com
Follow Bernard on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bernardgrant
High five habit with Mel Robbins on Instagram: @high5habit
Sheena Michele Mason's substack on racelessness: racelessness.substack.com
Yoga Nidra meditation playlist on YouTube
Percival Everett's novel: Erasure
TERMS:
PDA: Pathological demand avoidance, while framed negatively by the medical establishment, applies to a neurotype with an intense need for autonomy and whose nervous system is set on alert by external demands.
Info dumping: A form of communication reserved for trusted connections, in which a person shares in-depth, detailed information about a specific interest or passion.
Dyspraxia: Also sometimes called developmental co-ordination disorder (DCD), a neurological difference affecting movement and co-ordination (not related to intelligence or intellect). Increases the difficulty of tasks requiring balance or fine-tuned motor skills, like playing sports or learning to drive a car.
CREDITS:
Hosted by Dara and Amber.
Music by Amanda Zorzi.
Editing by Dara.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Music]
(00:28):
Hello and welcome to "How Do We Deal?! Coping with the Confounding" with Amber and Dara!
I'm Dara. I'm Amber. We're glad you're here. Thank you for joining us.
Amber (00:41):
We're really excited today about our guest Bernard Grant Ph.D. Someone I've known for a while.
I know Bernard through advocacy for neuro minorities. We both do that kind of work and sometimes we team up.
(01:04):
We recently presented at a conference. And I have to say Bernard this isn't true for everyone.
I felt like our partnership was effortless. I didn't worry about it. I trusted you completely.
We were on the kind of the same page and how we think about things. Although you educate me a lot,
because you've been doing this longer and deeper than I, but I really enjoyed it and it kind of made me
(01:28):
appreciate how fun it is to work with neurodivergent people like yourself and the joy of it.
But more about you, not just about me and my experiences with you. You are an award-winning writer
of prose and articles and content. If anyone wants to learn about neurodiversity, we will include your
(01:52):
link to your website at the end of the episode probably, and in our links in our posts and episode
description. But you're also an editor of literary journals, literary writers and all kinds of content
you're editing as well. A life coach and neurodiveristy trainer. I know that you work with parents
(02:16):
which I think is incredible because I know a lot of parents with newly diagnosed children and they
don't get it and they don't know where to start. And so I think that's such a gift that you do that.
Of course, you're an autistic advocate. Also like me, ADHD, I mean I see this when I work with you.
(02:36):
You have a truly gifted intellect. Like my daughter, you have dyscalculia which is sort of
a math learning disability. Is that how you would describe it, Bernard?
Bernard (02:49):
I don't believe in learning disabilities. Amber
It's a neurotype. Yeah. I mean because I mean it's named after
what the person can't do. But it doesn't talk about what the person can do. There's a lot of creativity.
Like when a sense is cut off another then comes on, there's a lot of creativity especially with
(03:11):
language going on with dyscalculic people. Amber: That's what I see in you and my daughter. And I love that.
Thank you for reframing that. Dealing with the schools, they're already, they're always so
disorder-focused and pathologizing and every time I talk to you, I kind of shift away from that.
Dyspraxia has another thing on your list. To me, all that adds up to just a very unique,
(03:31):
gifted person with a really cool perspective on things. So we're really glad you're here.
Cool, I'm glad to be here. Amber
Or do you want me to start? Okay, I'll start us off. Yeah. Okay. We wanted to start off
talking about autistic identity. How long have you known you were autistic? And can you tell us
(03:56):
about what it was like coming to understand and accept this part of your identity?
Yeah, I found out I was autistic eight years before I accepted it. And I was in my mid-20s
so it was probably like 10, 11, 12 years ago. I started working as a caregiver to autistic adults,
and most of them were non-speaking. Except with me, like they would communicate a lot more with me.
(04:20):
They behaved very differently with me when my coworkers weren't around. And then one of my
colleagues said that her husband had just gotten diagnosed as autistic. And he was in his 50s.
And then that's when I realized that you didn't have... I thought autism was something that was so obvious,
as to be identified early on right away. I thought it was some kind of illness.
(04:43):
But then that's when it clicked for me that I was autistic and then my sibling
right, I have an identical twin who was doing the same kind of caring at a different agency
across the city, and they too noticed they are autistic from working with their clients. But I didn't
accept that I was autistic for eight years because of internalized ableism, internalized autistaphobia.
(05:08):
And I had things that I wanted to do. And I thought that it was a lot... It's just not really
making any sense, but I thought acknowledging I was autistic would mean I couldn't do the things that I wanted to do.
But it turned out that being autistic was motivating me. It was the thing that was pushing me
toward things that I wanted to do because I was living such a non-traditional life that people told me
(05:31):
that going down a non-traditional path, people told me, would lead to my ruin. But because I'm autistic and I'm
determined, tenacious, I kept going down that path anyway. And I'm glad I did...
Amber (05:43):
I love that. That is so awesome. Um, just a side note, I know Dara and I have talked about this, but
it's cool to hear you talk about your journey because I think today we kind of get
mad when people don't get it right away when they're pathologizing, but we all have...
(06:04):
we're in a society that so stigmatizes it, but of course you thought that. And it took a long time
for Stella to accept her diagnosis. Sometimes I wonder if I'm autistic because I work so well
with people who identify as autistic, but I hope that I don't have a block up. I...
But when Stella was diagnosed, I had to really... It took time to accept it and embrace it as
(06:26):
positive and see the positive. Um, so... Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's huge for people to hear.
people to hear. Bernard: Yeah, the pandemic allowed me to just admit that I was autistic because for the first time
I became calm. And I knew that that had something directly to do with autism, but I didn't quite
understand why, but I knew that if I accepted that I was autistic, if I just accepted myself, and stop hiding
(06:48):
from myself, that I would be a lot better off. That's when joy entered my life, and calm. I always
had shaky hands my whole life, and my hands don't shake anymore. Amber: Wow.
Occasionally they do, but not that often. I also just don't really care anymore. It used to be like
in my history, if my hands started shaking I'd get embarrassed and hide them, but now I just... I just don't care. Amber: I love that.
Dara (07:10):
Can I follow up on what you were talking about, being an advocate and the work you were doing?
How did you get into that originally and then to kind of receive a diagnosis, diagnosis after the fact?
Did it... Well, first question is how did you get into that originally? That work.
Bernard (07:35):
Yeah. I've never had a diagnosis actually. I've never been diagnosed with autistic. I've diagnosed
an ADHD a long time ago at OCD and PTSD, but autism (diagnosis) was something that I could never afford,
which is part of why I didn't identify for eight years. And then it was a lot of time. I was in
graduate school for a very long time. And even if I could afford the money, there was no way I could
(07:58):
afford the time. So by the time I accepted my autism, I started to realize that there was no need
for a diagnosis because what is it going to give me? And I've got to pay for a lot of it in money
and time. But I'm sorry, I forgot what the question was. Dara: Original question was how did you get into
(08:20):
the advocacy originally? Oh, that was an accident. I was reading a lot and I got online and I got
I stopped being social... I had been... I hadn't been a social media for a couple of years,
but my psychiatrist, and therapist, she did both. She... She kept telling me I need to
get a LinkedIn, because I was about the graduate from my PhD program and I did not want to teach
(08:43):
anymore. So she kept telling me I had to get a LinkedIn for like a year. Eventually as a graduation
got closer, I got a LinkedIn and I just accidentally met some autistic people. And I guess with the way
algorithms work, the more I met - the more and more autistic people I kept meeting more and more autistic people.
For the first time meeting people en masse, like a group of people who actually made sense to me,
(09:05):
it was the first time it ever happened in my life. It was astonishing. And so I just built like a network
of autistic people, and more broadly neurodivergent people, but mostly autistic people
is who I talked to. And I don't really post so much anymore... But, I used to post a lot of articles online and now my advocacy - well I've been a life coach for autistics for two years -
(09:30):
but it's been more like less social media and more like other things. So right now I'm editing -
with another autistic, I'm editing an anthology of autistic voices. Um, late-to-identify autistic
voices. Although we're still looking for a publisher for that, but we're still getting proposals
(09:50):
up until December. But yeah, I originally just went to get... I originally just met some autistic people
and just started sharing what they shared. I wanted to become an advocate because I learned about
autistic burnout. And then quickly found out that autistics already know about autistic burnout,
and we have so many other problems, which are - especially attitudinal barriers,
(10:12):
like just attitudes that the autism industrial complex has created, that they're aggressively marketing
and lobbying, that autism is some kind of illness, some kind of problem to be solved,
and there's something wrong with autistic people. Amber: I think Autism Speaks is probably the tip of
that spear, or is like one of the main forces. Like, if you look at where their donations go, like
(10:37):
hardly any of it goes to autistic people. It goes to their machine and to their messaging and their
propaganda, which I don't know. I guess these are well-meaning on some level, but they're so misguided
and so pathologizing. And so I just wanted to explain that because I don't think people realize
(10:57):
what you meant when you... Some people might not realize what you meant. There IS a machine out there,
like to your point, putting out these - sustaining these negative stigmas.
Yeah, like people say, like you see like ABA people online saying, "I work with autism." And no,
you work with autistic people, there's no autism that you're working with, and there's no autism that's
(11:23):
inside someone that can come out and change, it's like saying you're going to change someone's eye color,
it doesn't really make any sense. But these narratives are being promoted through aggressive marketing.
Amber (11:37):
Yeah. And that serves up our next question really well, the attitudinal barriers you just mentioned.
There is research that actually shows that neurotypical people make negative judgments about autistic
people in seconds. And I think about my daughter, you know, venturing out to a new school or just being
(11:58):
in the world, and that's what makes... And I always say this, Dara and I were at a concert and I was
talking about Stella and mentioned that she happened to be autistic and I just said, "And just so you know,
the biggest barriers she faces are other people's judgments. And I want you to know that."
And so how do you deal with that bias? That goes to the core of our podcast... but like, being in the
(12:18):
world, facing those judgments, how do you deal with it? You previously said you've learned not to care. How did you get there?
Bernard (12:24):
It was the pandemic. I felt calm, so I decided I was going to be calm
for the rest of my life. And I am really good at adhering to whatever goal I set for myself. And so that's
what I just thought, I chose to stop being anxious and develop a regular meditation practice and
(12:46):
different things. But also just absorbing autistic culture and rejecting the neurotypical culture.
Like neurotypical culture is very illogical and my autistic mind is autistic mind is a logical mind.
So absorbing all the weird concepts and the strange music and rituals that
(13:10):
neurotypicals have can really... It's something that causes autistic burnout. And so just wanting a
better life for myself. And a lot of that is just what I consume and how I think of myself.
Like one thing is having an identical twin, it's really motivating. I don't want to pathologize them.
(13:30):
And we're so similar that to pathologize them is to pathologize myself. And I want to treat
them fairly. And so that's that was one big motivator. And I just don't have it in me anymore because
the fact is I can't change. That's what thing I start to realize during the pandemic is that I can't
(13:50):
change. And so then that means that I need to get used to it. Like info dumping for instance, before
I knew what info dumping was, I thought it was a horrible bug inside of me that I need to change somehow.
But I realized what needed to change was my attitude about it. Like why am I... Why do I hate the fact
that I info dump? Well, it's because of other people react poorly to it. Well then why don't I just
(14:12):
stop making their reaction mean something about myself? And that's what did, I just stopped letting
people's reactions mean something about myself because they mean something about them.
Their thoughts create their emotions so it has nothing to do with me. I think just approaching things
very logically and trial and error... I mean just like it just takes time for neuroplasticity - for your brain to
(14:36):
make new pathways. So just being in a really patient with it too. Which is something I learned from
writing. Amber: Yeah. You work on writing pieces for years don't you? You have that persistence and that
patience. Bernard: Yeah I just finished a very long essay that took me a year and a half. But I had stories that
(14:57):
have taken me three or four years. Essays got so much but a short stories and fiction can end up
taking a really long time sometimes. Dara: So I thought it was interesting your statement about
allowing other people's opinions or their - um - how they judge you or feel about you - not letting
(15:20):
it affect you. And also combining a meditation practice is that something that you would
meditate on and try to level during a meditation or or how did you get to a place where you could say,
"What their opinion of me is - doesn't matter to me." Bernard: I mean the more I learned about being autistic, the more
(15:48):
I just stepped into what being autistic means and being autistic means having a logical mind. I mean
that's not to say that autistic people aren't emotional, but we're more logical than emotional. Whereas
a neurotypical person runs with their emotions. And so I just really stepped into that and just
(16:08):
starting to see things as logical as possible. And there's just no way like -
someone asked me about what I'm reading and as I told them what I'm reading, they started having a
panic attack and started freaking out. I'm not going to let that mean anything about me anymore.
I used to let it mean that I did something or I said something inappropriate. Then I tried to figure
out what I said that was inappropriate but whatever it is, it's like what Amber said that earlier, they
(16:34):
make these judgements within milliseconds. There's something there's - it could be a million things:
the way I'm presenting, the way I speak, or the topic of the book I'm reading which is
often quite serious as, according to neurotypicals - they call me serious. So I just can't let that
mean anything about me anymore because it would just plunge me back into that old life I had of -
(16:57):
I grew up with severe social anxiety. I grew up with severe depression and it was all a lot of
that came from me. I was abused but a lot of it came from me making like - the way people who react to me,
I made that mean something about myself and that's just not true. Our thoughts create our feelings
so whatever reaction they have means something about them because I'm not attacking them, I'm not
(17:22):
harming them. I'm just being myself. Amber: Right. Bernard: Does it - hope that makes sense. Dara: It does! It's something that
I speak to my children about often. My children have faced bullying. My oldest is in third grade
and she's faced bullying since first grade - loved by so many but threatened by many and most of the time
(17:46):
my response to her is "what they say about you is more a reflection of how they feel about themselves
than it is about you" and I'm trying to really help her grow up in the social media world where it's
all about your exterior perception as opposed to who you are internally, and letting that external
(18:10):
source be your internal guide. So it makes so much sense and I'm so glad to hear you speaking on
this. Bernard: I'm glad you you're teaching her that because I've seen social media destroy a lot of people like
yes it's the way drugs do, you know I mean it's not that severe like they're on the streets
(18:31):
or anything but they're their personalities have changed and they - they're dependent on social media
for dopamine boosts and for validation and they just completely lose themselves. I've seen it happen multiple
times. It's tragic, I think. Dara: Yeah, I agree we we had a full podcast on social media and how it's
(18:56):
really running everyone's perceptions - those that buy into it and pay it homage as opposed to
using it as entertainment and fiction, because it just gives people self worth as opposed to
internally growing self worth. Bernard: Yeah, external validation is fleeting and doesn't really
(19:26):
build character or do a whole lot for you, especially if you're not saying anything meaningful.
That's what - that's what I'm curious about, like people who go on social media, they get really
popular but they're not saying anything at all. How does that make you feel good about yourself?
Dara (19:44):
Yeah. Bernard
like what you're accomplishing. Except getting people to say they like you or something.
I actually just - my daughter was telling me about someone who was mispronouncing her name on purpose
(20:06):
and how upsetting it was to my daughter, and I said one you know what your name is so that's really
the most important part. And number two, the next time that they do this I want you to calmly ask this
person, "Why does it make you feel better to try to make me feel bad?" Bernard: Yeah, yeah,
(20:30):
they're not actually going to be able to answer that - people go mute when I ask then questions about their behavior.
Yes, you see it - it's a visceral reaction too, you can see their whole bodies will tense and
then they go on a defense about whatever it is and generally they'll just start in on an arsenal
of insults because they don't have any rationale for why they're - why they're being that way.
Bernard (20:57):
Yeah, they're mad about something. They don't like themselves. Dara
That's another thing is just learning that - I've done a lot of work to like myself after
spending most of my life not liking myself, and then so to let someone who doesn't
value themselves at all - to let their words mean something about me it just it just - their words
(21:20):
go right through me. It doesn't matter anymore. So I just yeah, I thought, one thing that
helped was during the pandemic I read Donna Williams, her memoir. Do you know Donna Williams? Dara: I do not.
She's an early autistic advocate but she wrote about how she owns herself and she is
(21:41):
finally figuring that out and - and I think she was in her early 20s at the time but just learning
that she owns herself. And so I learned that too. I own myself but for a long time
I didn't ,and that's a choice that we can all make. Dara: I agree. We at one point we were talking about -
(22:02):
Amber and I were talking about - how long is it going to take us to like ourselves because this is
the only person we get through this time on this earth for this experience. How old are we going
to be? To be like oh my wrinkles are okay or aging is okay or I have freckles all over my face
which is you know something that people used to make fun of all the time but when am I going to
(22:27):
look at the mirror and say I like me because I'm the only me there is. Bernard: Yeah it's a necessary path
to walk. I think it's a very necessary goal. One easy way to get kind of get there is I don't know if you've
heard of the high five habit but you just high five your reflection in the mirror each morning and it
(22:50):
creates new neuropathways because high fives are inherently positive. Amber: I love high fives. I think
high fives are underrated. It's like a burst of energy, burst of positive energy. I like it.
I could - love kids - I love the idea of kids doing that, building those pathways early. It's such a fun -
like you're brushing your teeth and you give yourself a high five. I love that idea.
(23:14):
Yeah I wish I did that I was a kid. Dara
Dara (23:18):
Me either. I mean a lot of us don't and it's interesting how we're born into this world kind of like
free of whatever perception that you're going to then gain in your life and people can
live an entire life without liking themselves. And it's the only self you have.
Bernard (23:39):
Yeah, I tell people that the only person who's ever going to be with you all the time is
yourself. Even if you're in a couple - I'm an identical twin and I live with my twin and we
go everywhere together. We feel safer that way. But like I'm the only person in the bathroom
with when I go to the bathroom. I'm the only person with myself with I go to bed. I'm with myself.
(24:02):
And I know people have partners to sleep with but I mean we just - there's never ever going to be
anyone else with us all the time except for us. So it's - the most important relationship we can have
is a relationship with ourselves. Amber: Love that so much. Dara: Just one more point to that. I'm interested in
your meditation practice and in your meditation practice - is it just a quiet mind? Do you mantra? Do you -
(24:32):
because I think I could sit down and do some meditation saying a mantra of "I like myself." I
think that would be helpful for me. Bernard: I use yoga nidra meditation and so it's a practice of - you lie
down or your back. I use a heavy blanket - I'm autistic. And sometimes I take a face mask and
(24:55):
I put it over my eyes. But you just lay down and listen to the track and the track is -
I used to do really long ones like 30 or 45 minutes but now I can only do 10, 15 minutes
as of the past two or three months. But it's, the guide will take you through body scans,
like some others do thought work. It just goes on. It's sensory integration and like if you -
(25:22):
one of them said that in like 30 minutes you can recover like four hours of sleep
which is how I got into it because I wasn't sleeping at all. And it pulled me and you know how you
get really delirious when you don't sleep. It pulled me - yoga nidra pulled me right
out of that. And so yoga nidra is a very complex type of meditation but it's really easy because
(25:45):
you just lay there and listen to it. But there's a lot of different parts to it. And so that's what I do
because it completely resets my nervous system, recharges - like if I'm having like these negative thoughts,
they just, they're just gone by the time I wake up and I'm just fresh and ready to go. It kind of like
(26:06):
starting the day all over again. But not literally. Dara: But yeah, like in the middle of the day it's like a refresh to
the start of your day. Bernard: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes I don't feel like listening to an audio track
so I'll just kind of lay there and let my mind just go like just proof - like let thoughts just float
(26:29):
through my mind, like little clouds just moving by, and sometimes I do a body scan too. And so after
doing it a while you can learn to just do it on your own, too, but I recommend
yoga nidra meditation. It's on spotify - I use spotify and YouTube and use and follow a bunch of different teachers.
Dara (26:53):
Perfect. Amber, let's make sure that we include that in the link. Amber
getting a lot of gems here, that we need to collect from Bernard. One other aspect of your identity that
you've probably been on a journey with from youth is in regards to race. You are someone who was
(27:18):
embraced the raceless - raceless identity in a culture that perceives you as black. Can you
talk to us about how you came to this part of your identity? Like how did you it's so I don't think
people are familiar with the idea? I mean it makes sense. Race is a construct but help us understand that.
Bernard (27:42):
Racelessness is just recognizing race is not real. Like race is not even a construct because when people
try to - when people think they're talking about race, they're always talking about something else
always - and they're usually talking about racism. So race is racism and it just every time we racialize
each other, like if I call it you white, that's just me practicing racism and if you call me black then
(28:06):
that's practicing racism. That's what I - and so that's how I define race - it's a belief. That's how I define
racism - it's a belief in race. I see the the main person who's speaking about this is Dr. Sheena Mason
and she's the one who I got a lot of my language from because most of my life I kept trying to
(28:26):
talk about this and identify as raceless. I would say "aracial" and then but I would get a lot of
pushback and then it finally happened during my dissertation defense that my all three of my dissertation
advisors just completely just were just so anxious and freaking out about the conversation that I just
went online and googled, um araciality, and then Dr. Sheena Mason's worked popped up and then I've
(28:52):
been talking to her and meeting and meeting different raceless people but she has um tenets of
racelessness and one of the tenets that race is not a construct and she she shows how um both
- like I said earlier people conflate a lot of things with race , but race doesn't exist
But i's often - people conflate it with ethnicity or class with race people conflate, um,
(29:19):
what is it? Mostly racism, like if you listen if you were talking about race they're mostly talking
about racism but they think they're talking about race but we're never actually talking about race.
But the more we try to talk about race, people they're not -
they're naturalizing race. Even, they'll say like "race is a social construct" and then in the very next
(29:45):
sentence they'll naturalize it and but every time we naturalize it we just promote it. So race upholds racism.
And the way I came upon it is I was reading Percival Everett's novel and he just says "I don't believe
in race." It's his novel "Erasure" and as the narrator says, 'I don't believe in a race. I believe that
people will - um, you know - hurt me, shoot me, hang me because they believe in race, but that's just the way
(30:12):
it is.' And so he's someone that is racialized as black um and the way he said that was just
exactly how I had been thinking about it and then I just went on a hunt to find more and more
raceless books and raceless people. And um yeah people have been questioning it for a long time.
(30:33):
It's just now, I would say that with Dr. Sheena Mason and the several people that she works with,
the conversation has been getting a lot larger because they, they petitioned to have um race - to have a
box for raceless people in the um census. Dara: Oh so we're not, we're not "other" anymore, it's raceless? Bernard: You can, you say
(30:55):
raceless, yeah, I mean if they pass it. But I don't know. But I mean their argument is the
science says race isn't a reality right so this should recognize that too. But I've always - the reason I've
always just seen straight through race is because I've um it's always caused me burnout. And the
final time was when I was doing my my my PhD exams and I was reading just a lot of African American literature
(31:22):
and it just burned me out and I just did not get a why, and it's because so many of them were
naturalizing a race and my mind stopped - my mind's too logical so it just like, it just twists up my mind
and makes me sick. And that's when I started going after racelessness um in a more formal way, instead of
just like talking about it with my sibling or I mostly talked about it with my sibling - and we would
(31:45):
say "aracial" - and that was on and off for most of our lives, and then I would try to talk to other people about
it and they would say that I suffered from internalized racism and and with - most recently someone said that I
am accommodating the white gaze. But I said that race wasn't real so then
(32:07):
- so then there is no white gaze. But they're not really listening. Dara: Right right
You mentioned the word "aracialogy" - is that is that the word from um the book you were reading?
Oh, araciality- that's the term I used before
(32:29):
I met Dr. Sheena Mason and the word racelessness - I think racelessness is just easier to say
and but "araciality" lines up with like how I see myself in general because I assume, I see myself as
agender and a-romantic and asexual so I think "araciality" fits me very well, but um yeah.
(32:56):
Dr. Sheena Mason actually has a um a journal - a substack about racelessness so people go on an upload things.
Well I mean she publishes articles for people Dara: Thank you,
thank you, I was trying to wrap my head around the word. I've never heard it and I
(33:20):
and I I love it, um and it's definitely something I'm gonna be checking out and identity has been wrapped
up in race. Bernard: Yeah it's very common Dara: And um I'm "mixed black and white" as they say and I remember
someone asked, she asked me one time, like "what are you?" Bernard: Oh Dara: And I said "I'm me, nice to meet you.
(33:45):
I'm Dara." Because I just couldn't go through the story of how my mother's white, my father's black
and like I just I just wanted to be me, and I remember walking away from that conversation -
probably for the first time - feeling like me. Bernard: Oh, that's cool. Yeah, race is inherently negative, like to
(34:06):
be racialized is inherently negative and it's de-humanizing for everyone um because it puts a
history on us that none of us were actually involved in, and um and racism is still going on -
there's a lot of systemic racism but um and - but it's not because people are black or people are white.
(34:27):
It's because people racialize each other as black or white. It's because people believe each other are black or
white, and that's the problem because the with the black and white, and with these different colors,
comes a hierarchy. And with that hierarchy, um, black is always gonna be at the bottom,
and the white is always gonna be at the top, um and people are always gonna be confused about
(34:51):
what the other ones fit but they're always going to come up below white but no one really has
white skin. No one really has black skin. So these are just metaphors and that hierarchy is always
gonna exist in that way. People think they can change it but it's been - if was it was gonna change it
would have changed during the civil rights movement, I think, or maybe even during reconstruction.
(35:13):
But it would have changed by now. Dara: Yeah it would have changed back in the days of Egypt right?
Pyramids being built - that's when, I mean it like you said it's it's a construct that we're forced into,
none of us have the actual history of what that race means. We're all born into this world as people
(35:36):
and we're just humans, all of us, Bernard: Yeah Amber: Can i ask you guys a question I both of you um
you hear white people, probably in white spaces only, although Dara's heard a lot of
bullshit from white people as well like being racist, but um you hear and try i think - i think
(35:59):
I'm understanding what you're saying but I want to make sure and this is, you hear white people
say something about black people as if their race is inherently a certain way, right? Like
right, like instead of societal conditions and poverty - it has nothing to do with that - that's why people
end up with different i mean it's really poverty probably that they are somehow attaching to a black
(36:26):
identity saying like "oh there's crime here it's the black neighborhood" ... you know what I mean? You hear -
is that kind of what you're saying? Like race has nothing to do with how we behave or who we are, what we
think, yeah - it's the experience is based on those judgments about race and if race wasn't a thing...
I'm just trying to make sure I understand you because i think it's really powerful
(36:49):
but you hear, I guess what I'm saying is I hear comments like and I always push back but you hear them
sometimes better than others like people, judging black people as if it's because they're black
that this problem exists in this community. For example, but race has nothing to do with it correct?
(37:10):
Like i'm trying like obviously - and so racelessness, like in order
to address this we have to stop treating race like it's real. Bernard: Yeah, I mean - in so-called
black communities it was, um, I mean those are results of systemic racism Dara: Right Bernard: I mean I read novels and watch films
(37:32):
based in the Ozarks, and I mean people people are living in
the Ozarks just the way that people are living in ghettos or so-called inner cities. Dara: Yes. / Amber: Yeah.
People in the Ozarks are racialized as white. People in the inner cities are
racialized is black but they're living quite similar lives. Except in the Ozarks it seems like -
(37:57):
I mean there's differences, but i shouldn't talk too much about the the Ozarks because I'm not from there,
but i mean but you can just see there's a lot of similarities. But the way Americans train
each other and what Americans are trained to do is to view everything through the lens of race, um,
and what that means is that they're actually just practicing racism because they're racializing each other.
(38:21):
Um yeah, but yeah, it's in race ideology - which, we're talking about race ideology - black is associated
with poverty and right and all this other stuff, um, and that's that's just one of the many problems
with racial ideology. Dara: I'd agree with that. I think, um, it's all about power right so
(38:46):
um if roles were reversed for instance, um if the darker skinned people as opposed to lighter skin
people somehow had remained in power - or however it was, I believe back in the day darker skinned
people had more power um - but once power is being added into the equation,
(39:13):
there needs to be something to minimize um people who you view as different than you um and when
it comes to race, it becomes a - um it's stuck. It's like quicksand. There's no getting out of it.
(39:34):
Once you get into it, no matter what you're born into, but so true that if you go down to Mississippi
and some of the white communities - they're living exactly the same as some people in black communities,
which they still will consider themselves better due to the coloring of their skin
and being the same social economic status as someone with darker skin.
(40:00):
Yeah, that's a brilliant point. Yeah it's just, um, it's so it's you can see where it how
race is nonsensical in the way that if you're - black people are considered poor but um -
but poverty gets anyone, because capitalism doesn't really discriminate on who it hurts.
(40:21):
It just hurts everyone, but it it's systemically made to hurt people who are racialized as black - to
hurt them more - but it hurts everyone. Amber / Dara: Really good point. Dara: Yeah, capitalism doesn't discriminate.
That's a really excellent point because it really is just about power and making the dollar.
Yeah. Amber
(40:50):
let's look - 15 more minutes. You guys good? Bernard: Sure. Dara: Please. Amber: Can you talk about how writing fits into your life?
You are a gifted writer. I mean, you've won awards, um, you have a PhD, you do it for a living, you do it
as a passion. What is - what does it mean to you and what role does it play in your life? I mean, is it
(41:14):
a source of joy? Is it like a core part of your identity... can you talk about writing? Bernard: Um i don't
put much stock in identity but i do identify as a writer, um and identify as a writer in a
professional context but not just in a professional context, I identify as a writer the same way I
(41:34):
identify autistic um or the same way I identify as an identical twin, so it's who I am, um -
and so I mean, it just started off as me trying to understand the literature I was reading.
Like I was reading some dense prose - well, some things that seemed dense to me at the time
but don't anymore (laugh) - but I try to understand every single line in James Baldwin and then um I
(42:01):
remember reading "Tender is the Night" - um who wrote that? - the same guy who wrote "The Great Gatsby"...
I was trying to read these books and I was struggling with them but I was in
the love with the language I was hearing, and so then, um, that's really how I got into it and then I started
um - and writing was a way from me to get much closer to that, so I took a creative writing
(42:22):
course that had me adapt to screenplay, to write the screenplay and adapt that into a short story,
and that was in like 2011 and I've been writing since. I went straight to graduate school,
straight to my MFA, and straight to my Ph.D. right after that, um but it's yes it's really for me to get
(42:44):
as close as I can to literature because I just love literature and storytelling, and it's also
a way from me to get, um, well it's also a way for me to survive because that's what I do for a
living in addition to life coaching, um, and it's also a way for me to get closer to film too, because
I was a film student before I was a literature student and I don't write screenplays. But I love -
(43:09):
like I'm a writer and I understand how they made that film - I understand the craft elements
that go into that and how they use that. And it's so much fun to me. And before like 2011,
when i was first learning this stuff, it was very difficult but now it's not difficult to me
at all for me to identify craft elements and to use them in my own work. Um, it's just fun.
(43:36):
I'm wondering if I'm answering your question you are, um, and it's interesting as you're talking,
Stella is very similar, I mean, she has some similarities with you in terms of like dyscalculia and
ADHD and autism, um, of course everyone's completely unique - but the way you're talking about
books, like she read "The Great Gatsby" and fell in love with it and it was really not just the story but
(43:59):
the words, like taking joy in just turns of phrase and like the way it's crafted. Not just like 'oh this
is exciting' you know, like really enjoying it in similar ways and I think that's really cool.
Yeah that's really important. Um yeah I think it's very common for dyscalculic people to be into
into words, into language, but um that novel is very interesting for how um - its sense of time like in,
(44:28):
like 120 pages, it reads like a full novel, um so it's very, it's a very concise novel -
which some people I think call it a novella but I think it reads like a novel.
actually. It's cool that she's reading. Amber: She loves to read and she loves words and she has an incredible
vocabulary and oh - side note I think you'd appreciate this; she has this ongoing story that she's building
(44:54):
and I think it could turn into a book or it's like an in her head but she's like "oh i have an i-
she'll tell me 'oh i have an idea for this character' and she keeps building all these characters and the
relationships and what, how they interact as as a couple or how the mother interacts with this -
and 'I think this dynamic will be like this' and and it's crazy - like one of the characters is a demon,
(45:17):
and and it's so interesting. But she grew up watching things like "Adventure Time" and things where like
an ice cream cone is a character, so of course she's has no boundaries. And um it's been going on for
years, and i'm like 'you gotta write this down.' So we got her a laptop and she's starting to capture it
but these are really well-thought-out characters and my point is she was evaluated for an IEP and the
(45:38):
psychologist pathologized it, um, said it was bizarre and that she might be out of touch with reality
and that we have to watch for like a reality disorder or something and I couldn't believe it. It's
like one of her biggest strengths so I just wanted to share that with you because I thought you
would appreciate the misperception of this gift and I know you're very gifted as well but I couldn't
(46:02):
believe it. Bernard: I did the same thing as a kid. I made up whole stories. like I would have these little
toys and I'd have whole universes and sub-plots and everything for them and at the time I lived inside
my body and it was very real to me, and my sibling was involved too. You know, um, but it's so horrible that
(46:22):
they pathologized it. I mean she sounds like she's hyperlexic and they will pathologize
hyperlexia which is strange to me, because hyperlexia is - I see it as a gift but it's -
it's like, I don't believe that people are really born with skills, really, but I believe,
well I mean it just seems like a skill that you're born with, to be hyperlexic. And um -
(46:47):
but people have pathologized that, too - doctors. It's very strange. Amber: It's very strange.
Luckily I know better and her teachers seem to know better so - and I have you as an example too of like -
I mean you're someone I really admire and and just being yourself
um, is something that I aspire to do. Like you're just a model for me in so many ways and I'm so glad
(47:13):
you guys got to meet. Um, I think we had one last question but Dara - I don't want to, I want to let you -
if you had anything Dara: go ahead um because i do - but we can go on Amber: Okay this is
critical to advocacy in a way, um, but because people hear only about the negatives about autistic,
(47:36):
um about being autistic, and the stigma, can you talk about um what you like about being autistic?
What strengths are associated with it? I know your brain is multifaceted and autism is
just one thing but can we push back on the stigma and can you talk about um autistic experience
and the positives? Bernard: Yes what comes to mind is that we have logical minds and I think that's just so,
(48:02):
so cool that we our minds are just wired to think logically, um, because a lot of people are not able to
think logically or they need training or it's really hard for them. Um another think is
systems thinking, so being able to think in systems. Um it's really a gift for me, so like I have systems
(48:24):
for my house - for how I run my house, but I have systems for how I do my work, um, and because of these systems
like I don't - I don't have to worry too much about - i'm PDA (pathological demand avoidance) but I don't have to worry too much about
being PDA. I have a lot of anxiety from it um so it's just that my mind just naturally thinks of these
(48:45):
systems. And then having a visual mind, it's very common for autistic people to have visual minds but I've met a lot
of people who don't they're um they have they're - they have, they have anti-phagia but um
but yeah I have a very visual mind, so iIcan see like whatever I'm working on. Like you know,
I'm working on a story or an article or essay or something - I can see it in my head either
(49:10):
as words or as images, whatever I need it to be, I have a very visual mind. And i think just honesty -
honesty comes from being autistic. Um there's a lot of autistic people saying that the fact that autistic
people can't lie is a myth, I think there's some truth to that, but I can't lie. So I mean, I think
(49:33):
that some autistic people can't lie and there's there's autistic people who can lie because I've
had clients who lied to me before, so um, so I'm just very honest and my morals - I stick to my morals
no matter what's - who's around or what's going on. So character as I see character - I define
character as, um, who you are when no one is is looking or who you are actually when you think that no
(49:57):
one is looking, um, and so I'm just the same way. Um, I mean in private I might dance and sing more to
music, you know, than in person, but I'm pretty much the same way. I have the same morals, the same values, um
so I mean those are some things that i like about being autistic - oh and being tenacious.
Because I have to be very tenacious to do a lot of the things that i've done um and I,
(50:23):
I really love that about myself but there's a lot that i like about myself. And i'll tell you, before
the pandemic I don't think I could think of anything that i like about myself. Amber: wow I'm suprised!
Dara (50:34):
it really worked- where, where for some people the pandemic wrecked them because they didn't have the
societal "okay, i'm okay, you say i'm okay" and you're in public and "this is right and i'm doing the right
thing," they got to know themselves and didn't like themselves because they were stuck with themselves.
(50:54):
Where it was the opposite effect with you... as prior, being forced into this neurotypical world of people
just judging and and and not appreciating talents and skills - you had time to sit with your talents
and skills and really appreciate. I love that for you. Bernard: yeah the more I just read a lot of books and
(51:15):
things by autistic people and the more i read the more I saw myself, and then I started to learn that
confidence comes from, um, seeing people like you or being around other people like you. That's
partially where confidence comes from. And i think it's really autistic people who have
given me the gift of being able to accept myself - all the writings and stuff that
(51:37):
the autistic people have done and the advocacy, it's been - it was immensely helpful for me.
Amber (51:43):
That's amazing. Dara
that, I mean not as like a re-occurance in general - but would you come back and join us again and maybe
we can speak on some other topics? I love your perspective, your your point of view, your self-love, your
(52:08):
ability to stay on task and on point. Like I've learned so much sitting in this conversation um -
but would you come back and and and talk with us again? Bernard: Oh i would be happy to. I've enjoyed this.
Yay, we we love this. We were into it. I knew you guys would jibe together. Um, thank you for being here.
(52:31):
Bernard, you're awesome. Bernard: You are, too, both of you - thank you for having me. Dara: Thank you for coming
It was really great. I - I feel like we need a million more Bernard's in this world, I mean
let's get a little like raceless in this world, like what the fuck is that concept anyways?
Let's talk about neurotypical versus neurodivergent, and like the amazing things that could be built if
(52:59):
there was some type of unity between racelessness and neurodiversity - the world could actually be
a fucking better place. Amber: We could all be ourselves, like you said just being you is so
refreshing you're not having to explain blah blah blah blah, yeah. I like how you talked about that.
Dara (53:19):
I loved it, I loved every second of it. I want more. Amber
this podcast. That was our conversation with Bernard Grant, uh one of the most
genius people i've ever met in my life, um thank you Amber for bringing them to the show. I think
(53:42):
if we could get a little more raceless and a little more neurodivergent the world would actually
be a better place - the solutions we could find! If we spent more time worrying about the environment
and less time about race, think of all the things we could do Amber: And we'd be more united because people
(54:08):
are so pitted against each other or like, uh, we could get more done across the board like we could just -
I mean I love that idea so much - it is a radical idea and um they explain things very well and um...
the logical nature of their brain just comes through like, right, it's refreshing. Dara: It almost makes
(54:35):
more sense than any of the bullshit we've ever been taught or shown as to what is important in life.
I think we gotta also ask Bernard, just uh, he dropped a couple names of some novels he's read and
doctors he's studied, and I think we we should grab those because I'm really interested in
(54:58):
"a-raceology?"... I'm not even saying - like I've never even heard this before. Amber: It's amazing I know -
someone who doesn't accept - who naturally, the status quo co is sometimes invisible to us, but
not to them - they challenge it at every turn because it doesn't make sense.
So it's really really refreshing to talk to them - every time it's amazing,
(55:24):
That was our chat with uh Bernard Grant and that's how they deal. I want to deal like Bernard does
because yeah they know what they're talking about. Amber: Yeah they're the only one who can answer
the question "how do we deal?!" in any real way like we're figuring it out they are our new expert and we
(55:46):
will be definitely talking to them again. Dara: Thank you for joining us today on "How do we deal?! Coping with
the confounding" Amber: and we hope it was helpful to you.
(56:07):
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[Music]
(00:28):
Hello and welcome to "How Do We Deal?! Coping with the Confounding" with Amber and Dara!
I'm Dara. I'm Amber. We're glad you're here. Thank you for joining us.
Amber (00:41):
We're really excited today about our guest Bernard Grant Ph.D. Someone I've known for a while.
I know Bernard through advocacy for neuro minorities. We both do that kind of work and sometimes we team up.
(01:04):
We recently presented at a conference. And I have to say Bernard this isn't true for everyone.
I felt like our partnership was effortless. I didn't worry about it. I trusted you completely.
We were on the kind of the same page and how we think about things. Although you educate me a lot,
because you've been doing this longer and deeper than I, but I really enjoyed it and it kind of made me
(01:28):
appreciate how fun it is to work with neurodivergent people like yourself and the joy of it.
But more about you, not just about me and my experiences with you. You are an award-winning writer
of prose and articles and content. If anyone wants to learn about neurodiversity, we will include your
(01:52):
link to your website at the end of the episode probably, and in our links in our posts and episode
description. But you're also an editor of literary journals, literary writers and all kinds of content
you're editing as well. A life coach and neurodiveristy trainer. I know that you work with parents
(02:16):
which I think is incredible because I know a lot of parents with newly diagnosed children and they
don't get it and they don't know where to start. And so I think that's such a gift that you do that.
Of course, you're an autistic advocate. Also like me, ADHD, I mean I see this when I work with you.
(02:36):
You have a truly gifted intellect. Like my daughter, you have dyscalculia which is sort of
a math learning disability. Is that how you would describe it, Bernard?
Bernard (02:49):
I don't believe in learning disabilities. Amber
It's a neurotype. Yeah. I mean because I mean it's named after
what the person can't do. But it doesn't talk about what the person can do. There's a lot of creativity.
Like when a sense is cut off another then comes on, there's a lot of creativity especially with
(03:11):
language going on with dyscalculic people. Amber: That's what I see in you and my daughter. And I love that.
Thank you for reframing that. Dealing with the schools, they're already, they're always so
disorder-focused and pathologizing and every time I talk to you, I kind of shift away from that.
Dyspraxia has another thing on your list. To me, all that adds up to just a very unique,
(03:31):
gifted person with a really cool perspective on things. So we're really glad you're here.
Cool, I'm glad to be here. Amber
Or do you want me to start? Okay, I'll start us off. Yeah. Okay. We wanted to start off
talking about autistic identity. How long have you known you were autistic? And can you tell us
(03:56):
about what it was like coming to understand and accept this part of your identity?
Yeah, I found out I was autistic eight years before I accepted it. And I was in my mid-20s
so it was probably like 10, 11, 12 years ago. I started working as a caregiver to autistic adults,
and most of them were non-speaking. Except with me, like they would communicate a lot more with me.
(04:20):
They behaved very differently with me when my coworkers weren't around. And then one of my
colleagues said that her husband had just gotten diagnosed as autistic. And he was in his 50s.
And then that's when I realized that you didn't have... I thought autism was something that was so obvious,
as to be identified early on right away. I thought it was some kind of illness.
(04:43):
But then that's when it clicked for me that I was autistic and then my sibling
right, I have an identical twin who was doing the same kind of caring at a different agency
across the city, and they too noticed they are autistic from working with their clients. But I didn't
accept that I was autistic for eight years because of internalized ableism, internalized autistaphobia.
(05:08):
And I had things that I wanted to do. And I thought that it was a lot... It's just not really
making any sense, but I thought acknowledging I was autistic would mean I couldn't do the things that I wanted to do.
But it turned out that being autistic was motivating me. It was the thing that was pushing me
toward things that I wanted to do because I was living such a non-traditional life that people told me
(05:31):
that going down a non-traditional path, people told me, would lead to my ruin. But because I'm autistic and I'm
determined, tenacious, I kept going down that path anyway. And I'm glad I did...
Amber (05:43):
I love that. That is so awesome. Um, just a side note, I know Dara and I have talked about this, but
it's cool to hear you talk about your journey because I think today we kind of get
mad when people don't get it right away when they're pathologizing, but we all have...
(06:04):
we're in a society that so stigmatizes it, but of course you thought that. And it took a long time
for Stella to accept her diagnosis. Sometimes I wonder if I'm autistic because I work so well
with people who identify as autistic, but I hope that I don't have a block up. I...
But when Stella was diagnosed, I had to really... It took time to accept it and embrace it as
(06:26):
positive and see the positive. Um, so... Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's huge for people to hear.
people to hear. Bernard: Yeah, the pandemic allowed me to just admit that I was autistic because for the first time
I became calm. And I knew that that had something directly to do with autism, but I didn't quite
understand why, but I knew that if I accepted that I was autistic, if I just accepted myself, and stop hiding
(06:48):
from myself, that I would be a lot better off. That's when joy entered my life, and calm. I always
had shaky hands my whole life, and my hands don't shake anymore. Amber: Wow.
Occasionally they do, but not that often. I also just don't really care anymore. It used to be like
in my history, if my hands started shaking I'd get embarrassed and hide them, but now I just... I just don't care. Amber: I love that.
Dara (07:10):
Can I follow up on what you were talking about, being an advocate and the work you were doing?
How did you get into that originally and then to kind of receive a diagnosis, diagnosis after the fact?
Did it... Well, first question is how did you get into that originally? That work.
Bernard (07:35):
Yeah. I've never had a diagnosis actually. I've never been diagnosed with autistic. I've diagnosed
an ADHD a long time ago at OCD and PTSD, but autism (diagnosis) was something that I could never afford,
which is part of why I didn't identify for eight years. And then it was a lot of time. I was in
graduate school for a very long time. And even if I could afford the money, there was no way I could
(07:58):
afford the time. So by the time I accepted my autism, I started to realize that there was no need
for a diagnosis because what is it going to give me? And I've got to pay for a lot of it in money
and time. But I'm sorry, I forgot what the question was. Dara: Original question was how did you get into
(08:20):
the advocacy originally? Oh, that was an accident. I was reading a lot and I got online and I got
I stopped being social... I had been... I hadn't been a social media for a couple of years,
but my psychiatrist, and therapist, she did both. She... She kept telling me I need to
get a LinkedIn, because I was about the graduate from my PhD program and I did not want to teach
(08:43):
anymore. So she kept telling me I had to get a LinkedIn for like a year. Eventually as a graduation
got closer, I got a LinkedIn and I just accidentally met some autistic people. And I guess with the way
algorithms work, the more I met - the more and more autistic people I kept meeting more and more autistic people.
For the first time meeting people en masse, like a group of people who actually made sense to me,
(09:05):
it was the first time it ever happened in my life. It was astonishing. And so I just built like a network
of autistic people, and more broadly neurodivergent people, but mostly autistic people
is who I talked to. And I don't really post so much anymore... But, I used to post a lot of articles online and now my advocacy - well I've been a life coach for autistics for two years -
(09:30):
but it's been more like less social media and more like other things. So right now I'm editing -
with another autistic, I'm editing an anthology of autistic voices. Um, late-to-identify autistic
voices. Although we're still looking for a publisher for that, but we're still getting proposals
(09:50):
up until December. But yeah, I originally just went to get... I originally just met some autistic people
and just started sharing what they shared. I wanted to become an advocate because I learned about
autistic burnout. And then quickly found out that autistics already know about autistic burnout,
and we have so many other problems, which are - especially attitudinal barriers,
(10:12):
like just attitudes that the autism industrial complex has created, that they're aggressively marketing
and lobbying, that autism is some kind of illness, some kind of problem to be solved,
and there's something wrong with autistic people. Amber: I think Autism Speaks is probably the tip of
that spear, or is like one of the main forces. Like, if you look at where their donations go, like
(10:37):
hardly any of it goes to autistic people. It goes to their machine and to their messaging and their
propaganda, which I don't know. I guess these are well-meaning on some level, but they're so misguided
and so pathologizing. And so I just wanted to explain that because I don't think people realize
(10:57):
what you meant when you... Some people might not realize what you meant. There IS a machine out there,
like to your point, putting out these - sustaining these negative stigmas.
Yeah, like people say, like you see like ABA people online saying, "I work with autism." And no,
you work with autistic people, there's no autism that you're working with, and there's no autism that's
(11:23):
inside someone that can come out and change, it's like saying you're going to change someone's eye color,
it doesn't really make any sense. But these narratives are being promoted through aggressive marketing.
Amber (11:37):
Yeah. And that serves up our next question really well, the attitudinal barriers you just mentioned.
There is research that actually shows that neurotypical people make negative judgments about autistic
people in seconds. And I think about my daughter, you know, venturing out to a new school or just being
(11:58):
in the world, and that's what makes... And I always say this, Dara and I were at a concert and I was
talking about Stella and mentioned that she happened to be autistic and I just said, "And just so you know,
the biggest barriers she faces are other people's judgments. And I want you to know that."
And so how do you deal with that bias? That goes to the core of our podcast... but like, being in the
(12:18):
world, facing those judgments, how do you deal with it? You previously said you've learned not to care. How did you get there?
Bernard (12:24):
It was the pandemic. I felt calm, so I decided I was going to be calm
for the rest of my life. And I am really good at adhering to whatever goal I set for myself. And so that's
what I just thought, I chose to stop being anxious and develop a regular meditation practice and
(12:46):
different things. But also just absorbing autistic culture and rejecting the neurotypical culture.
Like neurotypical culture is very illogical and my autistic mind is autistic mind is a logical mind.
So absorbing all the weird concepts and the strange music and rituals that
(13:10):
neurotypicals have can really... It's something that causes autistic burnout. And so just wanting a
better life for myself. And a lot of that is just what I consume and how I think of myself.
Like one thing is having an identical twin, it's really motivating. I don't want to pathologize them.
(13:30):
And we're so similar that to pathologize them is to pathologize myself. And I want to treat
them fairly. And so that's that was one big motivator. And I just don't have it in me anymore because
the fact is I can't change. That's what thing I start to realize during the pandemic is that I can't
(13:50):
change. And so then that means that I need to get used to it. Like info dumping for instance, before
I knew what info dumping was, I thought it was a horrible bug inside of me that I need to change somehow.
But I realized what needed to change was my attitude about it. Like why am I... Why do I hate the fact
that I info dump? Well, it's because of other people react poorly to it. Well then why don't I just
(14:12):
stop making their reaction mean something about myself? And that's what did, I just stopped letting
people's reactions mean something about myself because they mean something about them.
Their thoughts create their emotions so it has nothing to do with me. I think just approaching things
very logically and trial and error... I mean just like it just takes time for neuroplasticity - for your brain to
(14:36):
make new pathways. So just being in a really patient with it too. Which is something I learned from
writing. Amber: Yeah. You work on writing pieces for years don't you? You have that persistence and that
patience. Bernard: Yeah I just finished a very long essay that took me a year and a half. But I had stories that
(14:57):
have taken me three or four years. Essays got so much but a short stories and fiction can end up
taking a really long time sometimes. Dara: So I thought it was interesting your statement about
allowing other people's opinions or their - um - how they judge you or feel about you - not letting
(15:20):
it affect you. And also combining a meditation practice is that something that you would
meditate on and try to level during a meditation or or how did you get to a place where you could say,
"What their opinion of me is - doesn't matter to me." Bernard: I mean the more I learned about being autistic, the more
(15:48):
I just stepped into what being autistic means and being autistic means having a logical mind. I mean
that's not to say that autistic people aren't emotional, but we're more logical than emotional. Whereas
a neurotypical person runs with their emotions. And so I just really stepped into that and just
(16:08):
starting to see things as logical as possible. And there's just no way like -
someone asked me about what I'm reading and as I told them what I'm reading, they started having a
panic attack and started freaking out. I'm not going to let that mean anything about me anymore.
I used to let it mean that I did something or I said something inappropriate. Then I tried to figure
out what I said that was inappropriate but whatever it is, it's like what Amber said that earlier, they
(16:34):
make these judgements within milliseconds. There's something there's - it could be a million things:
the way I'm presenting, the way I speak, or the topic of the book I'm reading which is
often quite serious as, according to neurotypicals - they call me serious. So I just can't let that
mean anything about me anymore because it would just plunge me back into that old life I had of -
(16:57):
I grew up with severe social anxiety. I grew up with severe depression and it was all a lot of
that came from me. I was abused but a lot of it came from me making like - the way people who react to me,
I made that mean something about myself and that's just not true. Our thoughts create our feelings
so whatever reaction they have means something about them because I'm not attacking them, I'm not
(17:22):
harming them. I'm just being myself. Amber: Right. Bernard: Does it - hope that makes sense. Dara: It does! It's something that
I speak to my children about often. My children have faced bullying. My oldest is in third grade
and she's faced bullying since first grade - loved by so many but threatened by many and most of the time
(17:46):
my response to her is "what they say about you is more a reflection of how they feel about themselves
than it is about you" and I'm trying to really help her grow up in the social media world where it's
all about your exterior perception as opposed to who you are internally, and letting that external
(18:10):
source be your internal guide. So it makes so much sense and I'm so glad to hear you speaking on
this. Bernard: I'm glad you you're teaching her that because I've seen social media destroy a lot of people like
yes it's the way drugs do, you know I mean it's not that severe like they're on the streets
(18:31):
or anything but they're their personalities have changed and they - they're dependent on social media
for dopamine boosts and for validation and they just completely lose themselves. I've seen it happen multiple
times. It's tragic, I think. Dara: Yeah, I agree we we had a full podcast on social media and how it's
(18:56):
really running everyone's perceptions - those that buy into it and pay it homage as opposed to
using it as entertainment and fiction, because it just gives people self worth as opposed to
internally growing self worth. Bernard: Yeah, external validation is fleeting and doesn't really
(19:26):
build character or do a whole lot for you, especially if you're not saying anything meaningful.
That's what - that's what I'm curious about, like people who go on social media, they get really
popular but they're not saying anything at all. How does that make you feel good about yourself?
Dara (19:44):
Yeah. Bernard
like what you're accomplishing. Except getting people to say they like you or something.
I actually just - my daughter was telling me about someone who was mispronouncing her name on purpose
(20:06):
and how upsetting it was to my daughter, and I said one you know what your name is so that's really
the most important part. And number two, the next time that they do this I want you to calmly ask this
person, "Why does it make you feel better to try to make me feel bad?" Bernard: Yeah, yeah,
(20:30):
they're not actually going to be able to answer that - people go mute when I ask then questions about their behavior.
Yes, you see it - it's a visceral reaction too, you can see their whole bodies will tense and
then they go on a defense about whatever it is and generally they'll just start in on an arsenal
of insults because they don't have any rationale for why they're - why they're being that way.
Bernard (20:57):
Yeah, they're mad about something. They don't like themselves. Dara
That's another thing is just learning that - I've done a lot of work to like myself after
spending most of my life not liking myself, and then so to let someone who doesn't
value themselves at all - to let their words mean something about me it just it just - their words
(21:20):
go right through me. It doesn't matter anymore. So I just yeah, I thought, one thing that
helped was during the pandemic I read Donna Williams, her memoir. Do you know Donna Williams? Dara: I do not.
She's an early autistic advocate but she wrote about how she owns herself and she is
(21:41):
finally figuring that out and - and I think she was in her early 20s at the time but just learning
that she owns herself. And so I learned that too. I own myself but for a long time
I didn't ,and that's a choice that we can all make. Dara: I agree. We at one point we were talking about -
(22:02):
Amber and I were talking about - how long is it going to take us to like ourselves because this is
the only person we get through this time on this earth for this experience. How old are we going
to be? To be like oh my wrinkles are okay or aging is okay or I have freckles all over my face
which is you know something that people used to make fun of all the time but when am I going to
(22:27):
look at the mirror and say I like me because I'm the only me there is. Bernard: Yeah it's a necessary path
to walk. I think it's a very necessary goal. One easy way to get kind of get there is I don't know if you've
heard of the high five habit but you just high five your reflection in the mirror each morning and it
(22:50):
creates new neuropathways because high fives are inherently positive. Amber: I love high fives. I think
high fives are underrated. It's like a burst of energy, burst of positive energy. I like it.
I could - love kids - I love the idea of kids doing that, building those pathways early. It's such a fun -
like you're brushing your teeth and you give yourself a high five. I love that idea.
(23:14):
Yeah I wish I did that I was a kid. Dara
Dara (23:18):
Me either. I mean a lot of us don't and it's interesting how we're born into this world kind of like
free of whatever perception that you're going to then gain in your life and people can
live an entire life without liking themselves. And it's the only self you have.
Bernard (23:39):
Yeah, I tell people that the only person who's ever going to be with you all the time is
yourself. Even if you're in a couple - I'm an identical twin and I live with my twin and we
go everywhere together. We feel safer that way. But like I'm the only person in the bathroom
with when I go to the bathroom. I'm the only person with myself with I go to bed. I'm with myself.
(24:02):
And I know people have partners to sleep with but I mean we just - there's never ever going to be
anyone else with us all the time except for us. So it's - the most important relationship we can have
is a relationship with ourselves. Amber: Love that so much. Dara: Just one more point to that. I'm interested in
your meditation practice and in your meditation practice - is it just a quiet mind? Do you mantra? Do you -
(24:32):
because I think I could sit down and do some meditation saying a mantra of "I like myself." I
think that would be helpful for me. Bernard: I use yoga nidra meditation and so it's a practice of - you lie
down or your back. I use a heavy blanket - I'm autistic. And sometimes I take a face mask and
(24:55):
I put it over my eyes. But you just lay down and listen to the track and the track is -
I used to do really long ones like 30 or 45 minutes but now I can only do 10, 15 minutes
as of the past two or three months. But it's, the guide will take you through body scans,
like some others do thought work. It just goes on. It's sensory integration and like if you -
(25:22):
one of them said that in like 30 minutes you can recover like four hours of sleep
which is how I got into it because I wasn't sleeping at all. And it pulled me and you know how you
get really delirious when you don't sleep. It pulled me - yoga nidra pulled me right
out of that. And so yoga nidra is a very complex type of meditation but it's really easy because
(25:45):
you just lay there and listen to it. But there's a lot of different parts to it. And so that's what I do
because it completely resets my nervous system, recharges - like if I'm having like these negative thoughts,
they just, they're just gone by the time I wake up and I'm just fresh and ready to go. It kind of like
(26:06):
starting the day all over again. But not literally. Dara: But yeah, like in the middle of the day it's like a refresh to
the start of your day. Bernard: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes I don't feel like listening to an audio track
so I'll just kind of lay there and let my mind just go like just proof - like let thoughts just float
(26:29):
through my mind, like little clouds just moving by, and sometimes I do a body scan too. And so after
doing it a while you can learn to just do it on your own, too, but I recommend
yoga nidra meditation. It's on spotify - I use spotify and YouTube and use and follow a bunch of different teachers.
Dara (26:53):
Perfect. Amber, let's make sure that we include that in the link. Amber
getting a lot of gems here, that we need to collect from Bernard. One other aspect of your identity that
you've probably been on a journey with from youth is in regards to race. You are someone who was
(27:18):
embraced the raceless - raceless identity in a culture that perceives you as black. Can you
talk to us about how you came to this part of your identity? Like how did you it's so I don't think
people are familiar with the idea? I mean it makes sense. Race is a construct but help us understand that.
Bernard (27:42):
Racelessness is just recognizing race is not real. Like race is not even a construct because when people
try to - when people think they're talking about race, they're always talking about something else
always - and they're usually talking about racism. So race is racism and it just every time we racialize
each other, like if I call it you white, that's just me practicing racism and if you call me black then
(28:06):
that's practicing racism. That's what I - and so that's how I define race - it's a belief. That's how I define
racism - it's a belief in race. I see the the main person who's speaking about this is Dr. Sheena Mason
and she's the one who I got a lot of my language from because most of my life I kept trying to
(28:26):
talk about this and identify as raceless. I would say "aracial" and then but I would get a lot of
pushback and then it finally happened during my dissertation defense that my all three of my dissertation
advisors just completely just were just so anxious and freaking out about the conversation that I just
went online and googled, um araciality, and then Dr. Sheena Mason's worked popped up and then I've
(28:52):
been talking to her and meeting and meeting different raceless people but she has um tenets of
racelessness and one of the tenets that race is not a construct and she she shows how um both
- like I said earlier people conflate a lot of things with race , but race doesn't exist
But i's often - people conflate it with ethnicity or class with race people conflate, um,
(29:19):
what is it? Mostly racism, like if you listen if you were talking about race they're mostly talking
about racism but they think they're talking about race but we're never actually talking about race.
But the more we try to talk about race, people they're not -
they're naturalizing race. Even, they'll say like "race is a social construct" and then in the very next
(29:45):
sentence they'll naturalize it and but every time we naturalize it we just promote it. So race upholds racism.
And the way I came upon it is I was reading Percival Everett's novel and he just says "I don't believe
in race." It's his novel "Erasure" and as the narrator says, 'I don't believe in a race. I believe that
people will - um, you know - hurt me, shoot me, hang me because they believe in race, but that's just the way
(30:12):
it is.' And so he's someone that is racialized as black um and the way he said that was just
exactly how I had been thinking about it and then I just went on a hunt to find more and more
raceless books and raceless people. And um yeah people have been questioning it for a long time.
(30:33):
It's just now, I would say that with Dr. Sheena Mason and the several people that she works with,
the conversation has been getting a lot larger because they, they petitioned to have um race - to have a
box for raceless people in the um census. Dara: Oh so we're not, we're not "other" anymore, it's raceless? Bernard: You can, you say
(30:55):
raceless, yeah, I mean if they pass it. But I don't know. But I mean their argument is the
science says race isn't a reality right so this should recognize that too. But I've always - the reason I've
always just seen straight through race is because I've um it's always caused me burnout. And the
final time was when I was doing my my my PhD exams and I was reading just a lot of African American literature
(31:22):
and it just burned me out and I just did not get a why, and it's because so many of them were
naturalizing a race and my mind stopped - my mind's too logical so it just like, it just twists up my mind
and makes me sick. And that's when I started going after racelessness um in a more formal way, instead of
just like talking about it with my sibling or I mostly talked about it with my sibling - and we would
(31:45):
say "aracial" - and that was on and off for most of our lives, and then I would try to talk to other people about
it and they would say that I suffered from internalized racism and and with - most recently someone said that I
am accommodating the white gaze. But I said that race wasn't real so then
(32:07):
- so then there is no white gaze. But they're not really listening. Dara: Right right
You mentioned the word "aracialogy" - is that is that the word from um the book you were reading?
Oh, araciality- that's the term I used before
(32:29):
I met Dr. Sheena Mason and the word racelessness - I think racelessness is just easier to say
and but "araciality" lines up with like how I see myself in general because I assume, I see myself as
agender and a-romantic and asexual so I think "araciality" fits me very well, but um yeah.
(32:56):
Dr. Sheena Mason actually has a um a journal - a substack about racelessness so people go on an upload things.
Well I mean she publishes articles for people Dara: Thank you,
thank you, I was trying to wrap my head around the word. I've never heard it and I
(33:20):
and I I love it, um and it's definitely something I'm gonna be checking out and identity has been wrapped
up in race. Bernard: Yeah it's very common Dara: And um I'm "mixed black and white" as they say and I remember
someone asked, she asked me one time, like "what are you?" Bernard: Oh Dara: And I said "I'm me, nice to meet you.
(33:45):
I'm Dara." Because I just couldn't go through the story of how my mother's white, my father's black
and like I just I just wanted to be me, and I remember walking away from that conversation -
probably for the first time - feeling like me. Bernard: Oh, that's cool. Yeah, race is inherently negative, like to
(34:06):
be racialized is inherently negative and it's de-humanizing for everyone um because it puts a
history on us that none of us were actually involved in, and um and racism is still going on -
there's a lot of systemic racism but um and - but it's not because people are black or people are white.
(34:27):
It's because people racialize each other as black or white. It's because people believe each other are black or
white, and that's the problem because the with the black and white, and with these different colors,
comes a hierarchy. And with that hierarchy, um, black is always gonna be at the bottom,
and the white is always gonna be at the top, um and people are always gonna be confused about
(34:51):
what the other ones fit but they're always going to come up below white but no one really has
white skin. No one really has black skin. So these are just metaphors and that hierarchy is always
gonna exist in that way. People think they can change it but it's been - if was it was gonna change it
would have changed during the civil rights movement, I think, or maybe even during reconstruction.
(35:13):
But it would have changed by now. Dara: Yeah it would have changed back in the days of Egypt right?
Pyramids being built - that's when, I mean it like you said it's it's a construct that we're forced into,
none of us have the actual history of what that race means. We're all born into this world as people
(35:36):
and we're just humans, all of us, Bernard: Yeah Amber: Can i ask you guys a question I both of you um
you hear white people, probably in white spaces only, although Dara's heard a lot of
bullshit from white people as well like being racist, but um you hear and try i think - i think
(35:59):
I'm understanding what you're saying but I want to make sure and this is, you hear white people
say something about black people as if their race is inherently a certain way, right? Like
right, like instead of societal conditions and poverty - it has nothing to do with that - that's why people
end up with different i mean it's really poverty probably that they are somehow attaching to a black
(36:26):
identity saying like "oh there's crime here it's the black neighborhood" ... you know what I mean? You hear -
is that kind of what you're saying? Like race has nothing to do with how we behave or who we are, what we
think, yeah - it's the experience is based on those judgments about race and if race wasn't a thing...
I'm just trying to make sure I understand you because i think it's really powerful
(36:49):
but you hear, I guess what I'm saying is I hear comments like and I always push back but you hear them
sometimes better than others like people, judging black people as if it's because they're black
that this problem exists in this community. For example, but race has nothing to do with it correct?
(37:10):
Like i'm trying like obviously - and so racelessness, like in order
to address this we have to stop treating race like it's real. Bernard: Yeah, I mean - in so-called
black communities it was, um, I mean those are results of systemic racism Dara: Right Bernard: I mean I read novels and watch films
(37:32):
based in the Ozarks, and I mean people people are living in
the Ozarks just the way that people are living in ghettos or so-called inner cities. Dara: Yes. / Amber: Yeah.
People in the Ozarks are racialized as white. People in the inner cities are
racialized is black but they're living quite similar lives. Except in the Ozarks it seems like -
(37:57):
I mean there's differences, but i shouldn't talk too much about the the Ozarks because I'm not from there,
but i mean but you can just see there's a lot of similarities. But the way Americans train
each other and what Americans are trained to do is to view everything through the lens of race, um,
and what that means is that they're actually just practicing racism because they're racializing each other.
(38:21):
Um yeah, but yeah, it's in race ideology - which, we're talking about race ideology - black is associated
with poverty and right and all this other stuff, um, and that's that's just one of the many problems
with racial ideology. Dara: I'd agree with that. I think, um, it's all about power right so
(38:46):
um if roles were reversed for instance, um if the darker skinned people as opposed to lighter skin
people somehow had remained in power - or however it was, I believe back in the day darker skinned
people had more power um - but once power is being added into the equation,
(39:13):
there needs to be something to minimize um people who you view as different than you um and when
it comes to race, it becomes a - um it's stuck. It's like quicksand. There's no getting out of it.
(39:34):
Once you get into it, no matter what you're born into, but so true that if you go down to Mississippi
and some of the white communities - they're living exactly the same as some people in black communities,
which they still will consider themselves better due to the coloring of their skin
and being the same social economic status as someone with darker skin.
(40:00):
Yeah, that's a brilliant point. Yeah it's just, um, it's so it's you can see where it how
race is nonsensical in the way that if you're - black people are considered poor but um -
but poverty gets anyone, because capitalism doesn't really discriminate on who it hurts.
(40:21):
It just hurts everyone, but it it's systemically made to hurt people who are racialized as black - to
hurt them more - but it hurts everyone. Amber / Dara: Really good point. Dara: Yeah, capitalism doesn't discriminate.
That's a really excellent point because it really is just about power and making the dollar.
Yeah. Amber
(40:50):
let's look - 15 more minutes. You guys good? Bernard: Sure. Dara: Please. Amber: Can you talk about how writing fits into your life?
You are a gifted writer. I mean, you've won awards, um, you have a PhD, you do it for a living, you do it
as a passion. What is - what does it mean to you and what role does it play in your life? I mean, is it
(41:14):
a source of joy? Is it like a core part of your identity... can you talk about writing? Bernard: Um i don't
put much stock in identity but i do identify as a writer, um and identify as a writer in a
professional context but not just in a professional context, I identify as a writer the same way I
(41:34):
identify autistic um or the same way I identify as an identical twin, so it's who I am, um -
and so I mean, it just started off as me trying to understand the literature I was reading.
Like I was reading some dense prose - well, some things that seemed dense to me at the time
but don't anymore (laugh) - but I try to understand every single line in James Baldwin and then um I
(42:01):
remember reading "Tender is the Night" - um who wrote that? - the same guy who wrote "The Great Gatsby"...
I was trying to read these books and I was struggling with them but I was in
the love with the language I was hearing, and so then, um, that's really how I got into it and then I started
um - and writing was a way from me to get much closer to that, so I took a creative writing
(42:22):
course that had me adapt to screenplay, to write the screenplay and adapt that into a short story,
and that was in like 2011 and I've been writing since. I went straight to graduate school,
straight to my MFA, and straight to my Ph.D. right after that, um but it's yes it's really for me to get
(42:44):
as close as I can to literature because I just love literature and storytelling, and it's also
a way from me to get, um, well it's also a way for me to survive because that's what I do for a
living in addition to life coaching, um, and it's also a way for me to get closer to film too, because
I was a film student before I was a literature student and I don't write screenplays. But I love -
(43:09):
like I'm a writer and I understand how they made that film - I understand the craft elements
that go into that and how they use that. And it's so much fun to me. And before like 2011,
when i was first learning this stuff, it was very difficult but now it's not difficult to me
at all for me to identify craft elements and to use them in my own work. Um, it's just fun.
(43:36):
I'm wondering if I'm answering your question you are, um, and it's interesting as you're talking,
Stella is very similar, I mean, she has some similarities with you in terms of like dyscalculia and
ADHD and autism, um, of course everyone's completely unique - but the way you're talking about
books, like she read "The Great Gatsby" and fell in love with it and it was really not just the story but
(43:59):
the words, like taking joy in just turns of phrase and like the way it's crafted. Not just like 'oh this
is exciting' you know, like really enjoying it in similar ways and I think that's really cool.
Yeah that's really important. Um yeah I think it's very common for dyscalculic people to be into
into words, into language, but um that novel is very interesting for how um - its sense of time like in,
(44:28):
like 120 pages, it reads like a full novel, um so it's very, it's a very concise novel -
which some people I think call it a novella but I think it reads like a novel.
actually. It's cool that she's reading. Amber: She loves to read and she loves words and she has an incredible
vocabulary and oh - side note I think you'd appreciate this; she has this ongoing story that she's building
(44:54):
and I think it could turn into a book or it's like an in her head but she's like "oh i have an i-
she'll tell me 'oh i have an idea for this character' and she keeps building all these characters and the
relationships and what, how they interact as as a couple or how the mother interacts with this -
and 'I think this dynamic will be like this' and and it's crazy - like one of the characters is a demon,
(45:17):
and and it's so interesting. But she grew up watching things like "Adventure Time" and things where like
an ice cream cone is a character, so of course she's has no boundaries. And um it's been going on for
years, and i'm like 'you gotta write this down.' So we got her a laptop and she's starting to capture it
but these are really well-thought-out characters and my point is she was evaluated for an IEP and the
(45:38):
psychologist pathologized it, um, said it was bizarre and that she might be out of touch with reality
and that we have to watch for like a reality disorder or something and I couldn't believe it. It's
like one of her biggest strengths so I just wanted to share that with you because I thought you
would appreciate the misperception of this gift and I know you're very gifted as well but I couldn't
(46:02):
believe it. Bernard: I did the same thing as a kid. I made up whole stories. like I would have these little
toys and I'd have whole universes and sub-plots and everything for them and at the time I lived inside
my body and it was very real to me, and my sibling was involved too. You know, um, but it's so horrible that
(46:22):
they pathologized it. I mean she sounds like she's hyperlexic and they will pathologize
hyperlexia which is strange to me, because hyperlexia is - I see it as a gift but it's -
it's like, I don't believe that people are really born with skills, really, but I believe,
well I mean it just seems like a skill that you're born with, to be hyperlexic. And um -
(46:47):
but people have pathologized that, too - doctors. It's very strange. Amber: It's very strange.
Luckily I know better and her teachers seem to know better so - and I have you as an example too of like -
I mean you're someone I really admire and and just being yourself
um, is something that I aspire to do. Like you're just a model for me in so many ways and I'm so glad
(47:13):
you guys got to meet. Um, I think we had one last question but Dara - I don't want to, I want to let you -
if you had anything Dara: go ahead um because i do - but we can go on Amber: Okay this is
critical to advocacy in a way, um, but because people hear only about the negatives about autistic,
(47:36):
um about being autistic, and the stigma, can you talk about um what you like about being autistic?
What strengths are associated with it? I know your brain is multifaceted and autism is
just one thing but can we push back on the stigma and can you talk about um autistic experience
and the positives? Bernard: Yes what comes to mind is that we have logical minds and I think that's just so,
(48:02):
so cool that we our minds are just wired to think logically, um, because a lot of people are not able to
think logically or they need training or it's really hard for them. Um another think is
systems thinking, so being able to think in systems. Um it's really a gift for me, so like I have systems
(48:24):
for my house - for how I run my house, but I have systems for how I do my work, um, and because of these systems
like I don't - I don't have to worry too much about - i'm PDA (pathological demand avoidance) but I don't have to worry too much about
being PDA. I have a lot of anxiety from it um so it's just that my mind just naturally thinks of these
(48:45):
systems. And then having a visual mind, it's very common for autistic people to have visual minds but I've met a lot
of people who don't they're um they have they're - they have, they have anti-phagia but um
but yeah I have a very visual mind, so iIcan see like whatever I'm working on. Like you know,
I'm working on a story or an article or essay or something - I can see it in my head either
(49:10):
as words or as images, whatever I need it to be, I have a very visual mind. And i think just honesty -
honesty comes from being autistic. Um there's a lot of autistic people saying that the fact that autistic
people can't lie is a myth, I think there's some truth to that, but I can't lie. So I mean, I think
(49:33):
that some autistic people can't lie and there's there's autistic people who can lie because I've
had clients who lied to me before, so um, so I'm just very honest and my morals - I stick to my morals
no matter what's - who's around or what's going on. So character as I see character - I define
character as, um, who you are when no one is is looking or who you are actually when you think that no
(49:57):
one is looking, um, and so I'm just the same way. Um, I mean in private I might dance and sing more to
music, you know, than in person, but I'm pretty much the same way. I have the same morals, the same values, um
so I mean those are some things that i like about being autistic - oh and being tenacious.
Because I have to be very tenacious to do a lot of the things that i've done um and I,
(50:23):
I really love that about myself but there's a lot that i like about myself. And i'll tell you, before
the pandemic I don't think I could think of anything that i like about myself. Amber: wow I'm suprised!
Dara (50:34):
it really worked- where, where for some people the pandemic wrecked them because they didn't have the
societal "okay, i'm okay, you say i'm okay" and you're in public and "this is right and i'm doing the right
thing," they got to know themselves and didn't like themselves because they were stuck with themselves.
(50:54):
Where it was the opposite effect with you... as prior, being forced into this neurotypical world of people
just judging and and and not appreciating talents and skills - you had time to sit with your talents
and skills and really appreciate. I love that for you. Bernard: yeah the more I just read a lot of books and
(51:15):
things by autistic people and the more i read the more I saw myself, and then I started to learn that
confidence comes from, um, seeing people like you or being around other people like you. That's
partially where confidence comes from. And i think it's really autistic people who have
given me the gift of being able to accept myself - all the writings and stuff that
(51:37):
the autistic people have done and the advocacy, it's been - it was immensely helpful for me.
Amber (51:43):
That's amazing. Dara
that, I mean not as like a re-occurance in general - but would you come back and join us again and maybe
we can speak on some other topics? I love your perspective, your your point of view, your self-love, your
(52:08):
ability to stay on task and on point. Like I've learned so much sitting in this conversation um -
but would you come back and and and talk with us again? Bernard: Oh i would be happy to. I've enjoyed this.
Yay, we we love this. We were into it. I knew you guys would jibe together. Um, thank you for being here.
(52:31):
Bernard, you're awesome. Bernard: You are, too, both of you - thank you for having me. Dara: Thank you for coming
It was really great. I - I feel like we need a million more Bernard's in this world, I mean
let's get a little like raceless in this world, like what the fuck is that concept anyways?
Let's talk about neurotypical versus neurodivergent, and like the amazing things that could be built if
(52:59):
there was some type of unity between racelessness and neurodiversity - the world could actually be
a fucking better place. Amber: We could all be ourselves, like you said just being you is so
refreshing you're not having to explain blah blah blah blah, yeah. I like how you talked about that.
Dara (53:19):
I loved it, I loved every second of it. I want more. Amber
this podcast. That was our conversation with Bernard Grant, uh one of the most
genius people i've ever met in my life, um thank you Amber for bringing them to the show. I think
(53:42):
if we could get a little more raceless and a little more neurodivergent the world would actually
be a better place - the solutions we could find! If we spent more time worrying about the environment
and less time about race, think of all the things we could do Amber: And we'd be more united because people
(54:08):
are so pitted against each other or like, uh, we could get more done across the board like we could just -
I mean I love that idea so much - it is a radical idea and um they explain things very well and um...
the logical nature of their brain just comes through like, right, it's refreshing. Dara: It almost makes
(54:35):
more sense than any of the bullshit we've ever been taught or shown as to what is important in life.
I think we gotta also ask Bernard, just uh, he dropped a couple names of some novels he's read and
doctors he's studied, and I think we we should grab those because I'm really interested in
(54:58):
"a-raceology?"... I'm not even saying - like I've never even heard this before. Amber: It's amazing I know -
someone who doesn't accept - who naturally, the status quo co is sometimes invisible to us, but
not to them - they challenge it at every turn because it doesn't make sense.
So it's really really refreshing to talk to them - every time it's amazing,
(55:24):
That was our chat with uh Bernard Grant and that's how they deal. I want to deal like Bernard does
because yeah they know what they're talking about. Amber: Yeah they're the only one who can answer
the question "how do we deal?!" in any real way like we're figuring it out they are our new expert and we
(55:46):
will be definitely talking to them again. Dara: Thank you for joining us today on "How do we deal?! Coping with
the confounding" Amber: and we hope it was helpful to you.
(56:07):
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