E274: The Secret Weapon for Scaling & Selling Your Business—Most Founders Overlook This!

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
They're most likely their role or their scope within the
company will change so that at least they have some
freshness or newness in their activity to keep them energizing
on board. So that's another aspect. There might be a
perfect way of implementing that process, but there might be
a realistic way that might be more relevant, which might
involve understanding the people who are actually going to be

(00:21):
executing in that process and what are their subtleties that
are relevant to that process. There's no one size fits also,
you should actually, especially if you're going through the due
diligence process of buying a business, really trying and understand
that person in more subtler detailed than just what they
might be saying at service level or what you might
be reading.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello and welcome to the How to ACCEP podcasts where
we introduce you to a world of small to medium
business acquisitions and mergers. We interview business owners, industry leaders, authors,
mentors and other influencers with the solent to share with
you what it looks like to buy or sell a business.
Let's get rolling and now a moment for our sponsors.

(01:13):
This episode of How to Exit is brought to you
by Final Assent the Batique m and a firm helping
lower middle market business owners achieve their ultimate exit at
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(01:34):
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(01:56):
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(02:18):
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(02:39):
Hello and welcome to the Hot Exit Podcast. I'm here
with Ahkoopta and he is the co founder or sorry,
he is the founder of Reading Your Bio and Seni
your co founder of the other stuff. But you are
the founder of scale up exec. Did I get your
name right?

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Perfect? Just right?

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Okay? Cool. I have a running record of horrible being
horrible names for the first probably six months I ran
this podcast. I don't care if your name was John Smith.
I butchered it. So I'm getting better. I'm working on it.
I love unique names. It just shows how diverse the
world is. So thank you for being here today. Let's
just kind of get into this.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to being here and thanks for
having me.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
We always start with the origin story because you have
a really cool when you've started some really cool things,
you've sold some stuff and been part of some major companies.
Kind of tell us how you got into this space. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
Sure, So I've been in tech most of my career.
I was previously the co founder of a wireless company,
and it was one of those like garage starting in
a garage type of stories, and we had no money,
and we worked through a lot of interesting things, came
up with some of the first technology that now you
see in cell phones everywhere with wireless charging, and eventually,

(03:51):
after a lot of struggles, we built up that company.
It was acquired by Qualcomm, which is a company based
out of San Diego. After that, I had the chance
to work at Apple. I was in management there, managing
a big portion of the iPhone operations in the manufacturing
supply chain there, and was there for about five years.

(04:11):
Very fascinating just to see the scale of things in iPhone.
In the iPhone world, there's probably no product that's bigger
than iPhone, and so it was kind of fascinating to
see that and to work through that. And I managed
a two billion dollar year budget, and my goal was
to not spend two billion dollars a year, so we
did all kinds of interesting things to reduce the spend

(04:32):
across the whole manufacturing landscape. Eventually I had the entrepreneurial
bug again. I took a chance in myself, quit Apple
and acquired a distressed e commerce business. And it was
a business that had been declining for the prior two years,
and I didn't know much about the e commerce space
at that point and spent four or five quite painful

(04:53):
years in turning everything around in that business, from the
team culture, the supply chain, the B to B sales channels,
B two C sales channels. Eventually it did turn around.
It was acquired in April of twenty twenty three. After that,
I had the chance to help a couple of small
medium size businesses as a fractional COO. So these were

(05:14):
businesses where the founders, the CEOs, they'd hit a skill
set ceiling. They're businesses that plateaued, they were burnt out,
the teams were burnt out, and so I jumped in
and retweaked a lot of different areas from bottom to
top of these businesses. Within three or four months, the
revenues grew thirty forty percent, and it was just amazing
to see the type of impact you could have in

(05:34):
the small medium size business space very quickly. So because
of that success, I had more engagements that I could
handle myself in so started this firm Scale Up exec
and it's a firm of fractional coos. These are really
the people that, out of the hundreds of CEOs I
met through the years, these are what I find to
be the most skilled people who scaled businesses from a

(05:58):
zero to eight nine figures out of them to exit point.
They've worked through a lot of turnaround situations. They worked
in both small startups as well as in large enterprises.
And it's a small team right now, there's seven of
us on the team and we work across a lot
of different contexts to help businesses turn around and many
times get them to exit point. Yeah, so that's that's

(06:20):
a bit background myself.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, a lot of people, I think underestimate the role
of a CEOO, A lot of a lot of businesses.
Almost all businesses will have somebody handling operations. If they don't,
they're in trouble. But calling it a chief operating officer
and having somebody make sure that the day to day
operations and the scalability and all the day to day

(06:42):
functions perform is critical. The reason I kind of hesitate
on the whole conversation is the I've evaluated and looked
at probably in excess probably three four hundred now maybe
maybe more, quite a bit of a small businesses. And

(07:02):
once you're when you're under that five million dollar range,
I don't think I've seen it. One or two have
a CEO, and if you really look at them, somebody's
taken the role on right. Usually, if I find a
company that's doing really well, I can identify two people
fairly quick. There's a visionary somebody has ideas and just
kind of just solves problems and gets stuff done. And

(07:24):
then there's somebody that kind of rains that guy in it,
keeps them under control a little bit, and make sure
the day to day operations happens. There's a guy or
a girl who has that chief operating role, whether or
not they have the true title of it or the
salary of it. There's somebody there that says, this is
the way the widget's supposed to turn to get the
money to come into the bank account, to make sure
the bills are paid and the employees get their payroll

(07:47):
right exactly.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
And it's actually kind of fascinating that you say that,
because from what I've seen, most people, probably ninety percent
of people are either that visionary type or they're execution type.
There's very few, maybe ten percent of people that are
really skilled in both areas. And most people think that
they're skilled in both areas, but actually they either are

(08:10):
skilled in one of those two or that's where they
draw their energy from one of those two. And it's
important to recognize them and become aware of where do
I fit in. And it's okay if I don't have
everything in me, I just find the person, the right
person to complement the areas that I don't get energy
from or I don't have the skill set in.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
So if you don't know that, a lot of people
that they understand why they're floundering around as a business
or they're not succeeding in the way they should is
often that they don't have somebody in that operational role.
They don't have somebody that says, hold on this thing
over here makes a lot of money. Why don't we
just keep turning that wheel and make that things you know,

(08:49):
perform better and in turn a little faster and generate
that same you know, this whidget turns, If it turns
three times clockwise, it generates a thousand dollars. Let's give
people making sure that that doesn't ever stop turning right
to where you get a guy like me as visionaries like, oh,
we've turned that twice. Let's go focus on this over here, right,

(09:10):
and I'll mean no, no, that other one makes a
lot of men. Yeah you have, but this will too.
So we as a visionary we can be distracts, right,
and we almost always need to pair up with an
operator like you or somebody who's had that operational experience
and knows what wait a second, you know, if this
thing's going to succeed, certain things have to be done

(09:32):
on a you know, systematic approach.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yep, absolutely, So.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Tell me about the like what in your mind gives
a business the ability to exit. Let's talk about like
coming in as a chief operating officer taking a look
at a company and making it perform or turning it around.
What does that look like for you?

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah? I think first is to understand, especially when we're
talking about small medium sized business space where there's really
a founder who's been deeply ingrained with that business for
a long time. It's first important to understand what is
the ambition or the goal of that founder or CEO.
For many businesses, that founder is actually interested in having

(10:13):
a money making machine that just keeps on churning, a
wheel that keeps on churning, and it's not necessary for
them to grow it, but they're interested in having something
that can support their lifestyle. There's other founders who are
interested in growth, and some of them are interested in
extreme growth that all costs. So it's really important to
understand what is really the goal or objective of that founder,

(10:37):
and that goal also changes over time. Let's say a
founder has a significant life event, they have their first child,
or they get married or whatever else. Then sometimes those
goals also change. So it's important to understand some the
founder's personal ambition, how to intersects with their personal life,
their business intersects with their personal life, and then where

(10:57):
that's the starting point. From there, now you can start
based on that objective now working through Okay, if that's
where you want to get to in X number of years, Now,
how do we work backwards? So like, for example, let's
say if somebody is interested in having a business that
just keeps on churning and they want to have less
involvement in the business, so that could mean that maybe

(11:18):
the exit is not necessarily an exit of them out
of the company. It might be an exit of their data,
of their involvement day to day. So it might be that, Okay,
let's make sure that the right team, the management team
is in place. Do we have all the key people
that are needed to keep this wheel churning and are
also able to think through when things start going south?
At some point a business, there'll be competitive pressure that

(11:41):
comes in, There'll be some customer pressure that comes in.
Whatever else, some changes will be needed or some innovation
will be needed. So do we have the right people
in place that don't just keep on churning the wheel,
but can also think, can analyze, can see some adjustment,
is some adjustment needed? And so now if you've got
the right set of people in the team, you can
actually start extrapolating this founder CEO out of their current

(12:05):
hands on role and into maybe more of a board
level role or maybe like an advisory level role. So
you know, that could be one type of exit. There
could be an exit where somebody gets out completely from
ownership of the business as well as involvement in the business.
And now that'll take a different trajectory. There could be
there could be a lot of different scenarios that could

(12:25):
even be bringing in other partners that now get more
involved and maybe have skill set that this founder does
not have that could help scale the business and now
their involvement and becomes much more focused on certain areas
rather than the whole business. So like this, I think
it's important for me not to have a one size
fits all approach, but to really understand that context and

(12:45):
then now start solving based on that context.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
When I first got out of this space three hundred
interviews ago, we're about three hundred and twenty interviews into
this podcasting world. Now that when we first got into
the space, I was convinced that most of us would
be buying most almost all businesses from you know, seventy
five plus year old people who need to retire right

(13:09):
or divorces or medical you know, something medically happens. What
I've learned over time is there's a second class of individuals,
and especially in the tech space, it's very common and
through interviewing brokers and people who do a lot of
deals in this space, there is that second group of
I'd say they're twenty eight to thirty five, just got married,

(13:30):
got you and they're having their first kids on the way,
and they don't want to pull sixty eighty hour weeks
on a startup. They want they want to sell it,
have a little bit of change in their pocket and
reassess what they're going to do because they have a
child on the way and they want that free time.
I know a few brokers now that that's what they
focus on. They focus on the tech businesses in that realm.

(13:53):
Do you in your experience can you see that coming?
Like I know when we used to own the martial
arts studios and or I helped out at the ones
we want I practice and stuff, when there were times
you could actually see things are about to happen. If
somebody's you know, in their teens or like you know,
sixteen seventeen and they're starting to get very serious about
a girlfriend, we know they're not gonna train three days

(14:14):
a week anymore. They're gonna start dropping back because that
person that the other one's not gonna come yet. Unless
they drag them along and train with them, you know,
we're gonna lose. They're not gonna they're not gonna continue,
you know, training, or if they get married and the
kids on the way, we just know they're not gonna
continue training the way they used to train. You're gonna
they're gonna fade out and they're gonna lose that student. Uh.
I imagine there's some life events you can see coming

(14:35):
down the road when with these founders you're working with,
Like okay, they're getting married. You know, he needs to
have less time at the office. He's not gonna be
able to pull sixty eighty oh or weeks like he's
has been. Is that true or you can you see
things coming down the pipe?

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah, definitely. I think life events are are a big
aspect of that. But there's also another one which I've
seen a lot with uh, sub forty five year olds,
which is just boredom, where after four or five years,
most people under forty five, from what I've seen, they
get bored And it's not like I used to be
thirty forty years ago, where you have a lifelong job.

(15:09):
And this is the same in the corporate world as well.
If you have a job within four or five years,
you're gonna start getting some level of boredom. You might
start thinking what elsewhere else? And that same thing happens
with entrepreneurs as well, So I find that it's a
bit rare for somebody to stay in the same business
now that's in this younger age range for more than five, six,
seven years, And even if they are, then they most

(15:31):
likely their role or their scope within the company will
change so that at least they have some freshness or
newness in their activity to keep them energizing, not bored.
So that's another aspect.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
The boredom also leads to that shiny object syndrome. Right
where you start the sort of side proct project. You're bored,
you start the side project over here, I probably I
probably can count over a dozen companies where I talk
to and the reason they were selling is because their
side project took off and it's making as much or
more money or and on a better direct trajectory than
their main employee. Saying you're usually ill planned to sell

(16:07):
because they want to keep the employee. They want to
basically sell you. I p you know or or you know,
sell you know everything about the employees. And I was like, Okay,
that's not how this is going to work. So how
do you deal with you know, that group of people
You see them starting to get bored? Right, you can

(16:28):
if you're a CEO and a company and you're spending
time on these things, You're going to start to see
the indicators. Wait a second, this guy seems pretty bored
with this whole subject. We better we better gear this
for a sell. We better gear this for some you know,
a faster transition. How do you how do you how
do you handle that conversation with a with a founder?

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, firstly, it's quite easy to observe that when you
come into a business, you'll start seeing very quickly difference
between somebody who's really engaged in their business versus somebody
who's starting to get disengaged. And the tricky part with
boredom is that majority of the time, from what I've seen,
the business will eventually suffer. As soon as the founder
of CEO starts getting disengaged from the business. It might

(17:07):
not just be that they're they're not catching things themselves,
but it might be that their disengagement now starts flowing
into the rest of the team. The rest of the
team starts observing that it now starts changing the culture
of the company, and now even team members start getting
disengaged or less enthusiastic or motivated. It's very rare to
have a whole team that's super motivated, but the person
who's in the leadership role is not motivated or engaged.

(17:30):
It's very rare for that to have. That would be
amazing if if that was a possibility, but it's rare.
So that means that it is really important for somebody
who's an entrepreneur, as soon as they themselves start observing
some disengagement within themselves, to be honest and open that
this is a possibility and it's okay for that to happen.

(17:50):
For most humans, that's a natural part of their career,
their their career life cycle. And as soon as you
observe that, then now you start seeking some help in
our at least you yourself start putting together plans to
compensate for that. So whether that means changing your role,
getting other people to come in and take over your role,
or getting out, getting to an exit point for the

(18:11):
business itself, because at some point it's going to actually
result in a lower outcome or worse outcome for an
exit if you've been disengaged for some time now. So
it is important that as soon as let's say, if
the CEO founder hasn't observed it themselves, and now you
come in as a CEO or just a team member
in the company and you observe that to have that

(18:31):
open and honest conversation and to even let them know,
here's what type of impact this could have on your team,
on your team's culture, on the business, on the performance
of the business. And everybody is interested in having a
positive outcome for an exit for a business. So I
think in most situations where I've had that conversation, people

(18:53):
are quite open and they start having you know, taking
that conversation forward.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
A lot of these guys, a lot of people I
run into, they are really great at creating something right,
They're really good at creating idea. They have a software,
they have, you know, a device that they can create,
and they can take it up to a certain point,
but they're not the guy to take it to the
next level. How do you And you see this in
the VC world where a VC will call a venture

(19:21):
capitalist or a private equity company will come in and
will replace the CEO or replace somebody get it to
the next level. Right, as a business owner, how do
you have that conversation with somebody go, look, you were
great at making this and taking it to where you're
at now. But if you want to go bigger, we're
going to need somebody that has had that experience.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yep. And this is a very difficult conversation pretty much
every scenario that I've had, because people are very emotionally
tied to the business that they've started, and they may
have been there for several years, and so now they're
even deeper. Their connection is even deeper to that business,
and so now if you want to extract them from
their role or their position, it's quite challenging. So in

(20:04):
many cases we've taken it in baby steps, Like I
found that instead of saying, okay, let's get you out
of this role completely and now let's swap you in
with some swap in somebody else, that's usually too dramatic
for somebody to be able to take, even for their
ego to be able to take. And so instead it's
better to start off with small things and you really
like you as a CEO could or like an intermediary,

(20:27):
you could first try and build trust that when something
gets taken away from that CEO, that things don't just
fall apart, that they actually work well. So normally what
I like to do is I take one small thing
that's currently on the plate of the CEO and identify
that Okay, it's not necessary for them to do it,
or somebody else on the team has that skill set

(20:48):
and they could do it well, or they could even
do it better than the CEO is currently doing. And
you take that small little thing, come up with a
nice transition plan, put in a bunch of metrics to
make sure that things don't actually fall apart, and make
sure that you know that it's not just a one
time training, but that there's an ongoing connection between the

(21:09):
CEO and the person who's taking this over so that
they can ensure any extra feedback that's needed is given
and provided. So overall, just having a really nice, well
thought through transition plan for that with nice metrics and
accountability mechanisms in place. Now, after like a three or
four weeks of that CEO seeing that, oh, this thing
came off my plate and things are working well, nothing

(21:30):
has fallen apart. That starts building trust in you as
intermediary as well as just the concept of taking things
off of their plate. And now once you have that trust,
now you can add on more and take on the
next thing and the next thing and the next thing,
and eventually you can roll into a whole new role
or a new person that comes into the team. So
I like this kind of baby step approach. It's not

(21:51):
necessarily all the time. Sometimes you don't have the time
to be able to do something like that and you
need to make quicker transitions. In that case you need
different strategy, but there is a little bit of time available,
then I like the baby step approach.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
I've seen business owners where you know, we're talking to
him on the phone and they're like, yeah, i'd like
to I like to hang around and help out, but
I just kind of needed my hours to be reduced.
And you're like, okay, what does the reduction in hours
look like? And they go, yeah, i'd like to be
able to just come in forty hours a week. You're like,
wait a second, how how many hours are you coming in?
And one we were talking to he's like doing sixty
to eighty and I was like, okay, you know, we're

(22:26):
looking at two to three people because nobody is going
to come off the street. What takes a person sixty
hours a week that's been doing it for five or
six years. Then take the next guy seventy five or
eighty because he's not as efficient, right, he's got a
learning curve. He's not going to be as proficient or
proficient proficient, it's not going to be as good at

(22:46):
doing those particular tasks. What you explain on that baby
step approach, How long does it take to take and
to take a say, a CEO role. A guy who's
pulling three or four positions and three you has rehats on.
He's doing sales, he's doing customer support, and happens to
be the maintenance guy because he can walk through the
factory and here's the machine vibrating wrong and knows what

(23:09):
it needs right. There's these guys, you know, these guys
who have been in these businesses for so long, they
just they wear all the hats. How long does it
take to you know, I'm leading up to this question
because I'm curious on are we setting our transition period
periods right when we're looking at buying these companies? Right?

Speaker 1 (23:26):
I think that transition period there's also no one answer
for every scenario. It really depends on how open. Pretty much,
most CEOs they'll say that they're open to a transition.
They'll say that they're open to letting go of things
that are on their plate, but the reality you might
find to be different when you actually start taking things off,
even in baby step method. So actually you have to

(23:48):
be very watchful aware and just see how things are going,
and sometimes you might have to if things are going
too slow, you might force like come in and force
stop and say okay, now now we need to make
this transition and faster. So I think there's no one
size fits. Also, you should actually, especially if you're going
through the due diligence process of buying a business, really

(24:08):
trying and understand that person in more subtler detail than
just what they might be saying at service level or
what you might be reading in a prospectus about them. Actually,
Also to go back to a point around a founder
or CEO is working sixty hours or eighty hours. It's
rare to find that somebody who's working sixty or eighty
hours is truly doing productive, impactful work for sixty to

(24:30):
eighty hours, like completely one hundred percent. It's you'll often
find that they're working, they're putting in those hours, they're
sitting in a chair for those hours, but actually only
some portion of those hours are actually needle moving work
for the business. A lot of them might be like
I've seen many CEOs funders. They're involved in bookkeeping tasks

(24:51):
that really are not moving the needle for the business,
or they're doing a bunch of things that they think
are really important. But once you start analyzing the data,
you'll find that, actually, why are we even doing this
in the first place. It's not making any difference to
the business. And so instead of just blankets thinking that, Okay,
this person is doing sixty to eighty hours and so

(25:12):
now let's just find two to three people to take
over their work, it's actually better to first understand all
of the work that they're currently doing, is it useful,
is it impactful, and is it moving the needle? And
you can use techniques like time blocking Palmodoro try and
introduce that into their work life so that they actually
start doing work that's actually meaningful and is time bound.

(25:33):
It's not just like they're sitting in the chair in
front of a computer and just typing away, but actually
they might not be doing anything that's that useful.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
What is engagement with you? Look like if somebody came
in and said, hey, I've got this business. It's not
doing as good as it used to. Let's just pick
a number. It's like, you know, i'd like to I'd
like to see it sell at ten million. We're doing
two million now. We were at three million or two
and a half million. Now we're doing three million last year,
And I don't know what's going wrong? Right? What is

(26:03):
the engagement process? How long does it take for you
to kind of come in and analyze a business and go, Okay,
I do believe what myself or one of my people
could really make this work and hit their goals.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah. So, firstly, the way that our engagement processes, I
first try and meet with that CEO, founder and understand
the real situation. And I've done this now quite a
few times, so I've got a way of trying to
understand what the reality is in a business. And everybody
has different goals and interest, but to understand from their

(26:36):
goals to where they are right now, what kind of
possibility exists and does it seem real? And then now
based on the type of let's say they have a
certain goal, like you're saying they want to get to
a ten million exit and they're at a certain point
right now, I try and understand what are the gaps
in the business that are preventing them from getting to
that goal. So maybe there the gaps are in their

(26:59):
B to B sales side, maybe their gaps are in
their operations or efficiency, or maybe their their costs are
not in control, their margins are not optimized, or maybe
their team or their culture there's something that's that's not
optimized there. So typically in that first month, if a
CEO or founder doesn't already know what the roadblocks are,

(27:19):
then in that first month we'll do a deep dive
into each of these areas, team, culture, revenue paths, cost margins,
and and try and come up with There might be
one hundred things in there are that are gaps, but
there's probably a few that could move the needle the fastest.
So we'll try and identify which of these few that
should be worked on first versus what are the things

(27:42):
that could be worked on later. And now, who in
my team has that unique skill set to be able
to bridge those gaps for that company. So different members
of my team have different skills set. Many of them
are very omnid exterra so they can do a lot
of different things. But there might be if there's some
certain specific unique gaps in a business, then certain members

(28:05):
of the team might be more suited to help fill
those gaps. So then we once we get their agreement
with the CEO founder that okay, these are the best
gaps to work on first, now we'll actually start working
on the strategy and then actually roll up our sleeves
and start executing to get us there. And let's say
there's a long way to go and it takes it
two to three years to get us to exit point.
Or let's say there's we're very close and now it's

(28:26):
just some tweaking and fine tuning and maybe an exit
point or like starting to market ourselves for an exit
might be a nearer term, like in the next six months.
Then you know, we'll come up with different plans and
an execute based on those plans. But I found that
it's quite important, you know, when you're talking about small
medium sized bins, like you were saying, less than five
million a yere or whatnot, it's hard for them to

(28:48):
have a full time COO that is really skilled. They
might be able to find a CEO who's average skilled
or so, but there's a big difference. I've found that
somebody who's overqualified to work in a situation versus somebody
whose typical skill set. Somebody who's overqualified can in a
shorter period of time make a much bigger difference. They

(29:08):
can move faster, the type of decisions that they make
will be much better. They'll short circuit a lot of
paths to growth. And that's why I thought this fractional
space is kind of interesting because a full timer, it
kind of goes both ways. Somebody a business who's like
maybe five or ten million a year may not be
able to find a top skilled that might not be

(29:28):
able to afford somebody who's really highly skilled to be
their CEO. And then on the other end, somebody who's
really skilled CEO, they probably won't want to work for
ten or fifteen or twenty million dollars a year business.
They could easily work for something much more interesting where
their outcome might be more significant. But in the fractional space,
now somebody who's really skilled could work with four different businesses.

(29:51):
And it's actually kind of fascinating for them as well,
because they get that, like you were saying, somebody who
has ADHD, they love to get involved in a lot
of different things, and in a small tiam sized business
space you can make a difference so fast, so it's
kind of like an adrenaline rush, you know, in some ways.
So and the fractional space you actually can get access
to people who are interested in working in your size

(30:12):
business and do it in a way that's affordable. So
it's kind of a win win for both the CEOs
as well as for the businesses.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
Now, you guys have tools and systems and they're standardized
across the industry. You use like you use EOS and
those type of things, keep performing indicators, dashboards and all that,
or do you have some custom system you guys like
to build out news inside.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, each of my team members are of course quite
skilled in US and many of these other systems out there.
But for me also, I never like to take a
one size fits all approach like EOS works for several
different contexts, but not for every context, and the same
with many other operating systems. So I actually like to
see in each of my team members they like to

(30:56):
understand in detail what is the current situation of that business,
and then what's the future state of that business and
what kind of system or tools or techniques or processes
well will be most suited for that specific context. So
sometimes we take little bits from eos and from other areas.
Sometimes we custom develop our own methods or processes that
are actually relevant for that business. So I'm rarely a

(31:19):
one size fits all approach for anything. I like to
see what's relevant and then now we implement what's relevant
for that business.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
What's the typical I guess there's no typical one. But
what does a turnaround look like? For you? Guys? Is
is there any time you look at a business and go,
you know what, these things dieing and it should die.
You should just back away from it and leave it alone, right?
Or there are are all businesses stavable.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
I don't think all businesses are savable. And sometimes that's
partly to do with the skill set and the goals
of that founder. So maybe if that skill set and
interest or motivation of that founder is very aligned, then
it might actually savable. But if that interest so that
founder or for example, there's a business we're working in

(32:06):
right now. It was losing a lot of money. It
was losing three hundred and fifty k a month, and
it's a company with around one hundred people and the team.
We jumped in and got it to net zero and
to a point where they if they exit now, they
could exit without without having to declare bankruptcy, without having

(32:26):
to they could make all of their debts. And it's
not the outcome that the CEO ever envisioned, but the
skill set, the capabilities, the motivation level of that founder
or CEO for us to get it to this point,
I think is good and that's reasonable enough for what

(32:48):
is possible here, and I think it's actually a good
decision to try it, for that CEO to exit without
making anything but also not losing anything. But there are
other contexts where it is actually possible to turn around
and get it to a point where of growth it
again and then now when they exit, they actually might
get something out of it. So it's also not necessary
for every exit to be quote unquote of money making exit.

(33:10):
Even getting it to a point where you don't have
to declare bankruptcy could be a really interesting exit. Sometimes
it actually might be relevant to declare bankruptcy and cut
your losses as fast as possible and move on to
the next thing. Again, it's important at least for me
to understand the context and what's actually most relevant and
useful for given that context.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
So I've been working recently to on a project and
one of the things I'm on this project instead of
going out and I usually go out and find a
JB partner to be my CEO, oh, my operator, the
guys that just make sure day to day. Sometimes I
even like I can find decent enough virtual assistance and stuff,

(33:52):
you know, and they're very just if they're very OCD
as I like to call it. I like to find
a really good OCD person. It says no this which
it goes here this way at this time of the day.
That said, I'm trying to train AI now to be
my operator, right to at least be able to remind,
you know, kind of be a consultant. I'm giving it.

(34:14):
I'm doing the training and giving it documents for one
of the businesses and giving it the documents, given up
the you know, everything I can to have have an
insight into it, and then telling it it's the operator,
it's the Its job is to create standard operating procedures
to make sure that we are you know, are stable

(34:36):
and growing and act as an advisor in that role.
It's not there yet, right, but do you see AI
as taken on some of this capability in the future.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, definitely. I think that there's a lot of capability,
and we're already using most people in most companies are
already using it to help speed up things at the moment.
The things that it's not quite there with yet is
relationships and understanding people, like the real subtlets of people.
And to be a really good manager or leader, you

(35:08):
have to be able to understand the subtleties of people.
What's really their motivational factors, what are the things that
might be demotivating them, Are they in the right seats
for their skill set as well as motivational factors. And like,
let's say you introduce a new process. There might be
a perfect way of implementing that process, but there might
be a realistic way that might be more relevant, which

(35:28):
might involve understanding the people who are actually going to
be executing in that process and what are their subtlets
that are relevant to that process, And so you might
end up tweaking a process instead of it being perfect,
you make it actually relevant to that set of people.
So those kind of subtle things are really important in
being an effective manager and an effective leader in an organization,

(35:51):
and maybe one day that I will be able to
get to that level of understanding as well.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
I think that the only one that understands, or is
currently the only one I've found that's trying to understand
human sentiment, tonality and all that type of stuff is
Chatchipet four or five. It's actually a little scary how
how humanistic it is. Right you can have a like
I have people role playing with it, meaning that their

(36:21):
acquisition entrepreneurs they're needing to say, talk to business owners
and maybe they're software engineers by trade or something else
that they just don't have the people's skills that they
really need to do this part of the task right
to build rapport to have the first level conversations with
off market deals. So I give them some prompts and

(36:43):
I tell them, you know, use chat chipet and the
voice mode to play role play. And it's really good
at it. It's really scary how good it is. It'll
build a backstory for you in a heartbeat and pretend
to be the business owner and you know, and it
does the right thing. But it was all monot own
up until four five, and now with four or five
it actually does it with enthusiasm or some points and

(37:06):
gets excited about the heart of the conversation. And it's
a little scary that, like you'll lose track in your
own mind that you're talking to a computer. At some
point we have to worry about like you know, once
once they turned it like they're they're messing with agents now.
But you know they're saying in the next two to
three years, it's coming for all of our jobs, right,

(37:27):
it can have mine. I'm semi retired. Uh you know,
I'm doing this for fun and to you know, give
myself a sense of meeting and purpose. That said, with
with all the technology out there, what do you see
is the danger zone or the like? Is it? Is
it gonna help you in your business in your career?
You think there's some risk to what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
I think it's amazing. Technology is like speeding everything up.
It's allowing a lot of things to happen that we
previously couldn't even have time to do. And if it's
done well or utilized well, it can enhance every position
that exists. So we use it extensively and we're building
a lot of AI tools for many of our customers

(38:10):
to help them speed up a lot of the manual
work that they used to be doing. So we're still
kind of at that level where implementing AI to try
and speed up manual work, but eventually now to get
to higher levels and higher degrees of thought process that
would be the next step. So overall, I'm very interested
in seeing how things evolve and how we can continue

(38:31):
to utilize So I think it's it's only going to help.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Have you seen the industry reports, like what I call
them IRIS World? Is that the word I'm thinking of,
where they have like industry research for like if I
wanted to like look at say buying a manufacturing company
that manufactures parts for for machine shops or something like that,

(39:00):
I bet they're in here. There's an ibis world, you know,
a report that's thirty to fifty sixty pages deep that
tells you the state of the industry, the history and
all that. But they're not on all of them, right,
Like there's this like the one. You can get them
free for on search funder and some other places. You
can pay for them. They're expensive, but there are places

(39:21):
that give these reports for free, right I'm glad to
add them now. There's acupuncturists in the United States, so
I mean there's adhesive tape manufacturing, right, and you click
on one of the reports and it's really detailed. Up
until recently, we were limited to whatever, you know, fifteen
hundred or so maybe more of the industry reports that
are already done inside of the system. Now, with AI

(39:44):
and some of the tools out there, you can generate
a similar report with deep research type of tools in
fifteen twenty minutes with AI and it'll be up to
date and accurate. So if you're trying to figure out
if a new industry was something you wanted to get
into or it wanted you to, like if you guys
you wanted to consult for a new industry and having
to be on there to have an industry primer. With

(40:06):
a couple of AI tools, you could get up to
date so much faster than the week or two and
it'd taken in before to do all that research, a
PhD level research, you know, to figure out, you know,
kind of is this you know, is this an industry
we should be messing with or working with?

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, and I even love like a notebook LM where
you can just upload all that industry research and just
ask it the specific questions that are relevant to you
and you extract everything that you need very quickly. So
even understanding or comprehending data is going to become faster
and faster.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
It's funny as I use that notebook dot LM or
a notebook LM as a learning tool, right if I
want to learn a new subject, Like somebody wanted to
get me into crypto and I haven't messed with any
of the crypto stuff whatsoever, and they're like, no, dude,
you got to get into this. You got to get
into this. So I found five or six really trusted
that I pdf form ebooks that I trust that I'm like, Okay,
this is a this guy's really doing it. It's making money,

(41:03):
you know. And I bought some of them stuff and
I shove them all in that. And the cool thing
is because I like podcasts, it creates a twenty think
a twenty five minute the audio click that sounds like
a podcast, a two people discussing. I probably uploaded on
that one thirty five documents about four thousand pages, like
it was. It was quite a bit of data and

(41:24):
it gave me a twenty five minute conversation about all
the data and they're in the industry, and you know,
it's kind of like sitting through a mini lecture on
it and in a very conversational tone. I use it
as a primer to learn new industries.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
It's an amazing, fascinating tone.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
So what are the standard things you guys do now
as a service for the companies. I know you've had
quite a few experiences in the past and stuff, but
let's just kind of explain to people what it what
it looks like. You know, how do company how does
the company figure out they need, you know, a chief

(42:00):
operating officer or fractional keep operating officer.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, Typically, if you're very satisfied with how your company
is going and it's meeting the type of on the
trajectory towards your own goals that you have as an
owner or founder, then it's probably not relevant to have
somebody like us come in. But if you feel that
there's some gap between where your vision is for the
business and the trajectory that it's going on right now,

(42:26):
whether that's in number one, revenue, number two, whether it's
with cost or your supply chain or margins, and number
three with your team or processes or culture. If you
feel there's gaps in any of those three areas, then
it might be relevant to look into bringing on some
experts to help you. And we've kind of navigated a

(42:47):
lot of these situations through the past on revenue, on margins,
and team culture processes, and so we're able to quite
quickly make a difference. Whatever your goals are, whether they're
in terms of exit or not even an exit, you
just want you feel like there's, uh, there's some goals
with continuing the operations of your business and you're being there.

(43:07):
It could even be on your own leadership capabilities or
your ability to manage your team. If you feel there's
some gaps in any of these areas, and you can
get involved, get us involved, and we can help in
getting you closing those gaps. And we can do it
quite quickly because we've kind of seen it and done
it many different times in a lot of different contexts,

(43:28):
so it helps short circuit.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
There's also the thing that they say you know what
you know. With you, there's there's this whole concept you
don't know what you don't know, right, and having a
very experienced chief operating officer or somebody who has been
in your industry or been in Like for you guys,
you have a lot of experience in the software world
and device world. It sounds like, you know, tech world.

(43:51):
If I was a tech founder and I wanted to
grow really fast, I may or might not be able
to ask, you know, ask you the right question. There
may be things you could look at my company and
see that I just don't see because I don't know
what I don't know, right. I have a friend who
is a tech founder. He created a security device and

(44:13):
I just learned the other day that he, well, I
think we're shutting it down. We can't get sales to
go through. It's like, cool, what have you tried? And
I was like, well, they've run a bunch of you know,
Facebook ads, to landing pages and you know, different stuff.
I was like, why didn't you reach out to channel
partners that already sell security devices. There are entire you know,

(44:34):
value added resellers that that's all they sell, right they
they you know, that's you know. I come from the world.
I was the IT guy for a long time, the
IT miniager who bought those devices. I bought the firewalls,
I bought the network and equipment. I ran operations for
some of the biggest websites on the planet. I don't
ever remember necessarily buying anything directly from a direct sales
guy or from some websites somewhere. Usually I found it

(44:56):
either in a trade show, and that's how I knew
I needed one, right, Like, I went to a trade show,
somebody had this cool thing like, hey, we could really
use that, or some value added resale brought you know,
you know, I needed a new firewall, and they said, oh,
by the way, you know, here's this intrusion detection of
why she can set off to the side. That's what
there's kind of was like, you should set this off
of the side, and they'll tell you if something's going
on right. You'll know things about these industries that a

(45:19):
lot of these guys, especially if they're new founders. This
is their first or second gig they never even knew of.
You'll have connections and relationships with vendors and resale groups
and other stuff they just may never have. You can
bring things to the table that they just they couldn't imagine.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
So yeah, And I think the other aspect is that
when you're when you're a founder it's somewhat easier to
get advisors, people who'll meet you once a week or
once a month and give you a bunch of advice.
But I found that that basically makes her to do
list longer and longer, and and then the actual implementation
of that advice you may or may not have the

(45:58):
skill set to do it. That's why I thought I
thought it was quite valuable. And I've seen that hand
out to be the case to have somebody who not
just comes up with ideas or strategy or advice that
then actually rolls up their sleep and executes on it.
So that's where the space where we play in where
we not only come up with the advice or ideas,

(46:18):
but then I actually helped execute, which is often the
shortfall for many founders.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
You lose a lot of advisors this way too, because
I have a phrase for it. I call them ask
wholes Right, You'll ask me for my advice and then
you never do it right? Hey, can I pick your
ring for a few minutes? Can I take you to coffees?

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Like?

Speaker 2 (46:38):
You know? Like? Oh sure? Like what would I do?
What would you do? If you know, if you were
me and we go through all this, you know, like
we run through everything. I do the deep work. I
asked the right questions to make sure I can answer
the question properly. An hour later I said, okay, here's
what here's here's your plan step one, two, three, four,
And then you find out a month later, two later

(46:59):
they just continue to do what they've always done. They
didn't use any of it. Yeah right, I was like,
so a by the second or third time they do that,
you're like, look, I'm not even going to coffee with you.
You don't take any of the advice I give you. Right,
And I've learned over time most people when they ask
for advice, they don't really want your advice. They want
you to confirm an existing idea they already had in

(47:20):
their own head.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Exactly right.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, they wanted to They wanted clarification that they're on
the right path. They did not want to change paths.
So if your advice ends up, hey, change path, don't
do what you're planning on doing there, it's usually not
going to work. But with you being there to put
the hands on the reason a lot of times it
doesn't work, I think is because I already I already

(47:45):
know what I wanted to do you already have a
plan to do it. I already know what the next
step to do it is before I ask for that help,
and you told me to do something else. I kind
of feel like I got to go back to the
you know, starting will as opposed to let me just
try what I was gonna try anyway.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, Yeah, we always feel we always feel that we
must be right, you know, the ideas that we have
or the especially we're emotionally tied into it. Then we
often feel that it must be right, and I just
need to try. I'm so close. I just want to
try it out. But that may or may not be
the right course of action for the business course.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Correction is something that most great at least in my experience,
most great chief operating officers are the best at right.
They're they're at best at measuring something along the way
and going, hey, this is off track now, something happened
along the way. And I've been at a few tech
startups where we had a great chief operating officer. I've

(48:38):
reported a couple of them as like senior director of
operations where I was the head of all operations, but
I didn't report to a VP of you know, finance
or something I reported to some CEO and you know,
they look at numbers coming back and go, you know, hey,
you may not be seeing this, but you're no longer
at you know, five nines. You're you've got this product

(48:58):
over here that's causing a revenue impact acting outdays like
it's only been twice down this week, you know, this month,
And they come back and go, yeah, but both times
it was down for two and a half hours. Cost that,
you know, and they could give me insights in things
that would help me grow. How do you go about
with these with these small business owners being able to

(49:19):
track all? I mean, how long does it take you
to come in and know what you need to track?
And how how often you need to have these conversations?

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Does it take a while to really get in and
loan their operations? My question what I'm going for, because
we're running out of time here, is I hire you,
you come in, you start working. How long is it
before you're at full swing where you're you're you're in
the system, you know what's going on, you're integrated in
well enough that you're making a meaningful impact. Is it
day one or is it a measure two in what's

(49:48):
what's the learning curve?

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah, in that first week, you're immediately going to feel
a difference when somebody comes in with a higher level
of skill set then you're used to. You immediately feel
it in every conversation, in every interaction, and the speed
that they move at you. When you're working for actually,
you have to make sure every hour that you spend
is valuable. So that means that the people in the
team are going to start feeling it in the first

(50:09):
week itself. Usually in that first month. By the end
of that first month is when we've kind of come
up with our assessment, our recommendations, and here's the areas
that we should focus on, and we most likely, once
we've gone agreement in the areas to focus on, we'll
also have okay, here's the key metrics that need to
be tracked that will help us now figure out what
to do next, and we'll already have a plan in

(50:30):
place on how we should proceed. So in that first
month you're going to actually start seeing a lot of
action already happening and taking place and things starting to move.
Usually in that first three months is when you have
completed some significant projects where you'll now start seeing the
results in a meaningful way to the business. So yeah,

(50:50):
first week you'll feel the difference. First month you'll feel
the strategy and the direction will already be in place,
and the plans will be in place, and by month
three already start seeing major results.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
That's really great. That's actually a lot of fashioning. And
I thought it'd be I thought I'd take little while
to get in and kind of learn how things, learn
how the gears turn right, how how systems are. But
having the experience of doning this, done this over and
over and over again. There are simplistic, universal kind of
concepts between business and business. A B two B business
is going to be like another B to the business

(51:24):
business up to a certain level, right a business? Can
you know? To consumer business is going to be like
most others to a certain level. Right there, There's there's
nuances and uniqueness about every company. But I guess the
course set if it per industry, per you know who
they're servicing. Cork opponents need to be there. So how

(51:46):
do people reach out to you and work with you?
What's the best way to to uh, you know, reach
out to you, find out more about what you do,
and if you're a right fit for them.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Yeah, So scale upexec dot com is our website, and
on there you can actually book time directly with me,
even if you're not necessarily looking for a CEO. I
find it's valuable once you've learned something that it's valuable
to share it with others. So you can actually book
time directly with me, even if you're just wanting to
get some ideas or get some thoughts to help with
your business. So that's actually the best place. Otherwise, on

(52:17):
my LinkedIn as well. I think in the show notes,
I'll probably be my LinkedIn URL, so they can also
reach out and even book time with me directly through
my LinkedIn profile.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Okay, and then if somebody wants to do this, is
there a like is there a time commit would you guys?
Work off of equity? Is there a work off of
like a salary to or call it a contract fee?
Is there is a combination?

Speaker 1 (52:45):
So for me, it's important for everything to be very simple,
So no equity. It's a straight monthly retainer. We have
a one hour a day, two hours a day, three
hours a day, four hours a day plan, depending on
what level of engagement is needed. And it's just a
fixed monthly retainer for each of them. So typically, like
the smallest sized business we've worked with is like around
a million in revenue year, or they've raised maybe if

(53:07):
they're pre revenue, they've raised maybe a million or more.
At that point. Then the numbers end up working out,
and probably the largest sized company we've so far worked
with is a couple hundred people in the company kind
of range. So it's pretty pretty sizable range from small
to medium size that we end up working with and

(53:28):
are affordable.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
For awesome some as of you guys have a pretty
well put together plan. You've had a few exits in
the background. Let's wrap this up with a couple lessons learned.
If somebody's out there, they're thinking about selling their company,
they'd like to find tune it, maybe they want to
work with you and stuff. What are some of the
lessons you've learned from previous exits that you're going to

(53:49):
be able to help them avoid the the you'll have
in the same problem.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Yeah, firstly, understand who could be a potential buyer. That's
really important if it's a strategic sale. So let's say
you've got an interesting piece of tech and you want
to sell it to a large tech company. They may
not care about revenue or profit of your business. So
you want to try and understand that buyer. What are

(54:16):
they actually interested in. Maybe they're interested in your user base,
maybe they're interested in some other metric or parameter. So
if you understand that metric or the things that they
really care about if they were to buy you, then
you optimize that. You don't optimize profit or EBITA or
whatever else. But let's say your potential acquires a PE
firm or an individual. They may actually care about EBITA,

(54:39):
and so now you start optimizing based on that. And
there may be like that, You're trying to understand all
the different parameters that somebody who's going to buy you
would be interested, and then now you really work towards
optimizing that. That's the first thing. Many people end up
optimizing for things that are completely relevant to that buyer
that they're after, and now you might not actually get
the best valuation or exit outcome that you you need.

(55:01):
So that I think that's one of the most important things.
There's probably a thousand other things I could talk about,
but I'll just give that one nugget for now.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
I tell people a lot of times that look, if
you're gonna go, there's there's it takes three to five
years to prep for an exit to do it right,
and that's to get your finances right, to get your
company right. And the longer periods are if you're going
to go for that strategic exit, you better have a
backup plan that if so, if you know, I have
one guy he's like, I'm selling my software company to Google, Like, ooh,

(55:32):
what happens when Google doesn't buy it? Right? Like, because
he's totally gear enough. He's paying attention to what type
of tools they use, what type of in development environment
they use. He's building something it would be really easy
for them to integrate, you know, And he's paying attention
to the right things. I get that, But what are
you going to do when they say no? Right? You know?

(55:54):
Are you? Are you building something so unique that to
that particular strategic acquire that nobody else is gonna want it?
Or you building something that okay, A, all I have
to do is tweak my ebita and my profits and
I can sell it to anybody. So there is some
concern with the timeline. Right if you're gear enough to
sell to one or one of I would say, if

(56:15):
you if you're trying to sell strategically to a strategic buyer,
you probably have a tween one and five out there
that you know will take it right here. That that's
your mindset it once once you get told to know
by those guys, what's next? Right? That real that retooling
part of that is like just be be ready to

(56:36):
know that if you get told no or whatever. Like
the question is what do I need to do to
make it worthy for them to want it? Or do
I need to set back and play the Ebita game
and the uh you know, and get this ready for
the open market? Cool? Uh? Three takeaways real quick? If
somebody can they don't remember anything else about the show,

(56:57):
I can only walk away with two or three things.
What would you want to walk away with?

Speaker 1 (57:01):
I think first is understand your own motivational factors and
be okay with that. Sometimes there's actually resistance that we
have inside of us for what actually motivates us and
demotivates us and what our ambition how that ties into
what our ambition is. So if you understand what your
ambition is for your business and what actually motivates you
and doesn't motivate you, that can now help you figure

(57:24):
out everything else, like what trajectory to have in the business,
who else you need to bring in to fill in
the gaps. I think that that's really important to that
honesty with yourself. Secondly, I think actually I guess there
are two things in there. One is you know, the
a eventual goal that you want to have that's based
on where your what your motivational factors are. And then

(57:46):
I guess third would be trying to make sure that
based on where you're trying to get to, what are
the gaps that currently exist in your team, in your
business on the revenue side, on the costs side, really
trying to understand those gaps and those gaps over now
what you need to address. So if it kind of

(58:07):
all flows together, if you understand your own motivation, you
understand your goals, and then now you take that down
into what are the gaps that exist to help you
achieve those goals, Now you can actually start working on
filling those gaps.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Awesome, Well, I want to thank you for being here
for today. Hang out for a few seconds afterwards, we're
going to call that a show.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
Okay, thank you.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
Thanks for having me sponsored by do Dilio. Looking to
buyer sell a business assimbly. The right team is essential
for success, and that's where due Delio comes in. Due
Dilio is the go to platform for hiring top M
and A service providers, including attorneys, deal advisors, and due
diligence experts. With a network of over two hundred and
fifty highly veted professionals and patique firms, they connect you

(58:49):
with the expert you need for a seamless M and
A journey. Whether you're acquiring your first business, growing your portfolio,
or preparing for a sale, Do Dilio makes building your
deal team easy and efficient, and best of all, their
matching service is completely free. Visit doodilio dot com it
assemble your winning team today

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