E286: Deals Don’t Fail on Paper—They Fail in People

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
But I think on the whole, like the Logitian mindset
of those pe firms and how to multiply shareholder value
is something that most entrepreneurs need to read so they
can see it from the other side and how they
can see exiting doesn't have to be, you know, as
painful as a process at least that I went through

(00:21):
in the beginning. And I was like, Jess, you know,
I hear these stats that you know, there's ten thousand
baby boomers selling their business every day. Sorry, there's ten
thousand businesses that are sold by baby boomers every day,
and there's gonna be seventy five million baby boomer exits.
And she said, David, you know those those numbers are inflated.

(00:42):
A lot of people are using that just as headlines
to get people to follow on their social media, but
there is a ton of baby boomers that are exiting.
I'm a big believer in this is spirit a small business,
and you know that that vision that is established, whether
it's articulated or not, there's that purpose in that vision

(01:03):
when that entrepreneur starts their business. I truly believe that
that's carried on throughout the business. And when you understand
that all businesses are the same in the sense that
they're run by people.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Hello and welcome to the How to Accept Podcasts, where
we introduce you to a world of small to medium
business acquisitions and mergers. We interview business owners, industry leaders, authors,
mentors and other influencers with the sole intent to share
with you what it looks like to buy or sell
a business. Let's get rolling and now a moment for

(01:50):
our sponsors. I want to highly recommend you get Acquisition
Officionado magazine. Every month, Acquisition Officionaudo Magazine brings you tactics
for business spine and selling you won't find anywhere else.
Learn firsthand from industry leaders who share their success stories,
featuring in depth interviews and stories from leading figures in

(02:11):
the business acquisition industry. This multiplatform mobile magazine speaks to
acquisition entrepreneurs wheretherver they are in the journey, and I
want you to visit Acquisition Afficionauto dot com today. Hello
and welcome to Hot Exit podcast Today. I'm here with
David Miller. And if you don't know this man, this
guy has done multiple deals, world traveler and international speaker.

(02:33):
I'm surprised you don't have a dozen books out yet.
But man, you've been You've been doing this for a while,
and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. We met
a little bit yesterday and I was reading through your
bio and you've done a lot in this space, and
I think there's a lot for us to learn from
you and a lot of experiences you've had that you
can share with us. So thank you for being here today.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, Man, appreciate it. Ron, just our short conversation that
we had, you having that technical expertise and just super
super intellectual. I'm looking forward to getting into it.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
I'm a little bit of a nerd. That's okay, That
NERD's a good word in my world. So, man, you've
been doing this for quite a while. I always loved
the origin story. What got you into the space? You've
got a background of finance and deals and roll ups
and all the stuff you've done. Kind of what moved
you into the space? What kind of intrigued you to
get you into mergers and acquisitions?

Speaker 1 (03:25):
I guess kind of a lighthearted answer, but somewhat somewhat
truth to it is. In short, a woman I was.
I remember I've always wanted to be in business school
I didn't really want to go to college. My my
mom actually made me feel an application to University of Tennessee,
which so I was born and raised in Knoxville. And
so I was looking at watching the TV one day

(03:48):
and CNBC and Maria Bartiromo came on there, you know,
very attractive Italian woman, and she just started just spitting
off all these like financial numbers and what was going
on with the markets and that just like that, that
engulfed me, man, and I'm like, Wow, she's super attractive,
she knows what's going on, and it's an industry and

(04:10):
interesting industry. I think I'm gonna go with in the
financier out and see where that takes you.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
With business, that's a great background to have, a lot
of us are coming into this space from being operators
of companies, being natural born you know, entrepreneurs something what
I call a natural born entrepreneur, entrepreneur people eating. My
dad had, you know, painting business. I didn't know anything else.
You know, my mom works side jobs and you know,
did did all kinds of stuff and always said side gig.

(04:35):
She she worked at a W two job for a
while there. My dad had a full time W two
but he always had, you know, a side gig of
some sort, and that's what I thought, you were supposed
to do extra money to go buy that beast bode
or you know, either my dad ever wanted to just
go paint a few more houses right within reason of course,
like you know. So it's just one of those It
was like everything's achievable through hard work. So that's what

(04:56):
I called it, like your natural born entrepreneur. That's just
kind of what you know, Like, that's what your family did,
That's what you My relatives, all my aunts and uncles
own heating their companies and plumbing and all this other stuff.
So I would just used to that's what people do, right,
But to grow up in outside of that environment and
goes to collegiate crowd. I think one of the best

(05:16):
results I've seen out of the groups of people I'm
interviewed with the guys that went through the finance, Right,
they went through finance, maybe they worked for a private
equity or a capital company, and they evaluated deals. I
interviewed a lady yesterday and that's her route. So it
gives you one heck of a basis to stand on
a foundation.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, I think I think probably to answer your question,
maybe a little bit a little bit better. I feel
like I was made for the financial industry, or at
least the financial side of business from the start. I
really I remember whenever I was younger, I had this
cardboard box of baseball cards, and my mom got me

(05:55):
a Beckett the For the listeners they don't familiar, remember,
it was a magazine that valued all the different baseball cards.
And I would take all my baseball cards every month
and cross check them with the Beckett value and how
it increased or decrease and track how much money I
had in value, and that that just intrigued me, like

(06:16):
how one card could be, you know, eighty percent of
the value of the portfolio, but it maybe it wasn't
It wasn't that valuable before. And the just the moving
dynamics of all those components, how it changes and all that.
So that's that's kind of how that's really like the

(06:36):
first memory I have of when those financial numbers really
started crunching in my head and I started using finance
as an element of creativity versus like the credit and debit.
That what I see is more kind of the boring
aspect and necessary, but boring aspect on the accounting side
of things.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
So I see you both went to You went to
your master's degrees from MIT. You know, that's impressive in itself, right,
What got you to continue the education process? Were you
already doing deals by then or did you did you
have a gap between undergrad in grad school or you know.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
One of the nonprofits I'm in Entrepreneurs organization. It's a
global organization about eighteen thousand entrepreneurs, about two hundred chapters
across all the major countries and cities in the world.
And one of their values, their core values is continual learning.
And I've always kind of naturally embraced that, even though
I'm not a big fan of like going to school books,

(07:33):
you know, going through that process, you know, finding a
way to learn has always kind of been in my system.
And you know, so I graduated from ut as quick
as I could. My dad told me, he said, I
don't really care what you do, David. You know, have
as much fun as you want, as long as you
go to class. So that's what I did. Not really

(07:54):
wanting to go to college, I made sure I went
to class. Never been one that had to study too much.
I'm kind of fortunate in that area. But so I
went to class and I took the tests, and I
got out in three three and a half years. And
once I got in the real world, I'm like, Wow,
there's there's so much more that I still need to learn.
So I've got my financial planning degree from OGLE four

(08:14):
or while I was working in corporate America, And the
best lessons that I learned wasn't through formal education. It
was through just screw it up and making mistakes and
failing in the in the small business space, which I've
done quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Of those stick the best, don't they You know, you
don't forget those lessons, is easily right. So those are
the lessons you learned the most is the ones that
sting a bit. It's seements that they're good in your memory.
You know, most people you know listen to this show.
They're trying to strive and get to their career to
have one good exit. Man, you've done dozens. What clicked

(08:50):
in you that you think other people have missing? What
do you think that something clicked along the way. First
of all, I step it take a step back. Even
what was your first transaction in the M and world
and what kind of instigated that, what made you think
I'll either buy a company or sell one.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Well, I started my financial company in two thousand and eight, and.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
As everything was like swirling around two thousand nags a.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Rough year, Yeah, nowhere to go but up right?

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, So you know, I left Corporate America and you know,
had non compete and all that, so I had to
do everything from scratch and the market was dead and
getting out there and educating people on investments and having
them give you money, especially me being in my twenties.
It's like you have someone who's you know, fifty sixty

(09:42):
seventy that's you know, has several million dollars, Like why
am I going to give some young young person their money.
I was able to build trust and get quite a
bit of clients that way, but at the end of
the day, I always reverted back to banks and like,
why are why do they? Why are they so accessful
at least from a stability and financial growth standpoint? And

(10:03):
it's it's all about leverage, you know. They you give
a bank a dollar and they, for lack of better words,
leverage that out twenty one times and the amount of money,
the amount of money that they're able to make on that.
So whenever I said, hey, and I did my first
small deal, I bought a lady's company that you know,
had been in the industry for about thirty years, who
wanted to retire and have a horse farm. And you know,

(10:26):
I did a seller finance note with I think maybe
I put ten twenty percent down and it's only a
couple hundred thousand dollars acquisition, but I saw how that
leverage and that cash flow yielded exponential returns, and you know,
why not grow off other people's money and other risk.
Obviously you got to deliver results or things are going

(10:49):
to fall apart, but you know, putting other people's money
on the line enabling you to you know, increase your
cash flow, top line and profit thereafter was just kind
of a sensible way that I looked at about doing it.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
So, was your first deal like an SBA loan deal
or it was like all solar finance?

Speaker 1 (11:07):
It was all seller financed. I've done a couple a
couple of million, not that many, maybe like four or
five six uh in SBA seven a's, but yeah, that
that first one was was seller financed.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
And how did you come up about that you just
happened to know her, or you've seen it posted somewhere,
or what was the like, Hey, wait, do you think
that there's something out there I should take a look at.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
It was a website for people that were retiring. She
had actually interviewed several people, and Louise was her name.
She's an amazing woman that she She taught me something
very very valuable I still use today, and it's it's
all about trust. So when I went in there, you know,

(11:52):
the first thing she said to me, we're all first
things she said to me were all these like very critical,
you know, cynical fact finding questions, but there was a
lot of curiosity with it. And after we got through
that first stage, she said, you know, David, I talked
to I won't say the gentleman's name. I talked to
this other person and there are other people in our

(12:12):
industry and they were way more successful than me, you know,
had been in the business a lot longer. And she's like,
but you know that I think that you have your
heart's in the right place. So I'm like, okay, Well,
trust is the most important currency in this industry and
in business, So if I can convey the amount of

(12:35):
trust that I have with someone that I'm doing business with,
and they get a sense of that, then that's ultimately
going to be one of the material components to facilitate
the deal.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Absolutely, almost every deal when I help people analyze you
in our groups and stuff that we have and know
something with sideways, it was usually because they failed to
build trusted BEFO right or they started asking for financials
or tax returns before they really had deep report. You know,
they especially when they go through brokers and stuff. They
go through the broker, the broker and they'll talk for

(13:10):
a while, maybe they've had four or five calls with
the broker exchange stuff. They meet the seller one time
and want to do an l A and the next
thing in they know in a thirty minute call with
the seller, they're starting to ask, well, I need your
last three years of tax returns. Yeah, the guy doesn't
quite trust you yet. Here there's there's there's got to be,
you know, at least especially in this day it was

(13:30):
where we do everything very in zoom and nobody got
a handshake, nobody even got a vibe and being around you,
there's got to be some more in depth conversations in
that right, if I if I ever teach a course,
which I used to teach, realistic courses and stuff like that,
if I ever do another one, if I ever do
a course product whatsoever, it'll be on not on mergers
and ourcquisitions, or they'll be on building trust and report,

(13:52):
you know, with anybody, because I think it's such a
critical skill in life.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah. I was talking to one of my colleagues, one
of my MIT classmates this morning, and she's in the
MNA space, and I was like, Jess, you know, I
hear these stats that you know, there's ten thousand baby
boomers selling their business every day. Sorry, there's ten thousand

(14:17):
businesses that are sold by baby boomers every day, and
there's gonna be seventy five million baby boomer exits. And
she said, David, you know those those numbers are inflated.
A lot of people are using that just as headlines
to get people to follow on their social media. But
there is a ton of baby boomers that are exiting.
And she said, you know, there used to be for
at least with her network, there used to be for

(14:39):
every acquisition that was posted for sale, there used to
be maybe thirty to forty inquiries, She's like, Now she's like,
there's as many as two to three, sometimes four hundred inquiries,
So that filtration process is even more rigid. And you know,
if that element of trust is there, then there is

(15:02):
not there, then it's it's going to be hard when
you're competing with a lot of people wanting to buy.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Businesses two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight and stuff.
When you and I graduated, my NBA was in two
thousand and seven. I believe I'm a little older than you.
I skipped a bunch of years between my undergrad and
I went back to my NBA. I got to the
point in my career as a senior director of Operations
and Tech that if I wanted to get the VP title,
I figured out I needed to learn how to play

(15:27):
golf or go back to school and get an NBA,
and it would seem less time consuming and less expensive
to freaking get another degree. So I went back to school.
But that whole process there, you know, of doing deals
and doing report and stuff, is so critical, and there's
so many people now. The difference is two thousand and eight,

(15:47):
two thousand and nine. I don't remember maybe one class
that brought it up a little bit. And I have
a master's in business in marketing. You think they teach
me all about mergers and acquisitions because it's a hell
of a way to grow. But back then it was
just the ivs doing eta entrepreneurship through acquisition. Now you know,
it's done almost all all kinds of schools are popping
up with these programs. You see, even lower tier in

(16:09):
like community colleges are starting to have classes about buying
buying a company instead of you know, starting one. And
so that's there. And then you have a group of
you know, ex real estate investors gurus are now teaching it.
You know, they taught real estate investing or wealths building
through other avenues and now they're they bought their first
company and now they're teaching acquisitions through you know, growth

(16:31):
through acquisition too. So I think the market of people
doing it is ten times what it used to be
when you know, not you and I were in college,
or if not a one hundred times, are not all
of them belong there?

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, that's where and you know this with your military background,
that's where that grit and resilience comes into play. One
of the market appears flooded and it's a red ocean
type environment, then you know, if that grit and resilience
discipline factor is not there, then good luck.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
I know, hands down, if I talk to a business
owner and fifty other people talk to the business owner,
at the end of the day, the business and owner
or owner I will still be friends. Right When I
sit down with a business owner and anybody, I coach
your mentor in the space, and I tell them the
same thing. When you sit down with a business owner
at the end of the day, you're trying to figure

(17:22):
out what their biggest problem is and if you're capable
of solving it, and if you're not capable of solving it,
hopefully you know so many ideas and you offer them
an opportunity to work with that person. And as long
as you do that, if you always have the other
person's interest in mine, you know, a lot of times
the biggest obstacle a business owner that thinks he wants
to sell isn't can you buy the company? A lot

(17:42):
of times, especially in the early stages, a lot of
times the other person's interest in mind. You just stop
doing some of the stuff you hated and bring people
in to do that stuff, and I explained to him,
so once you have this ready to sell, you may
not want to sell it. Once you have it ready
to sell and it's well managed and it doesn't depend
on you and not everybody's bringing all their drama to you,
it'll be running well enough. You could take a month's

(18:03):
vacation or a two months vacation, you come back and
you're making more money than you left. That's the indication
is ready to sell. And at that point, you're only
doing the things you love. You may not want to
get rid of it. You're only I think, like forty
two like you may want to hang around with that thing, right, Yeah,
I agree.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
And there's a lot of hype and just emotional excitement
built up around people selling their companies. But you know,
after you sell a company and that check comes and
hits your bank account, sure it feels good, but that
moment is is a very short period of time and

(18:41):
like one of the hard at least for me in
my experience, one of the hardest things and arts that's
required and building businesses, like you said, who not how
you don't have to know how to do everything. You
need to find the people who are capable of doing it,
and you get those people in place. You know, that's
a process that takes a while. So once your machine's

(19:02):
running and it's well oiled, why not keep it cash on?
Why not keep taking the profit? Why not, you know,
keep having fun. Especially if you've learned how to delegate
and all that, and you know someone comes along and says, hey,
we'll give you stupid money for what you're what you have,
then definitely worth entertaining that a little more seriously.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
You know, absolutely right. And I'm a big fan of
that Dan Sullivan's book, Who do not? How have you
read the book?

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah? Yeah, I like I like his follow on one too.
At two x's or ten x is easier than two X.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
I've got that in my reading and I've got a
ton of books in my audible to, you know, to
listen to when I'm at the ocean. But uh, I
like to take an audible book and go for a drive,
go up to the coast because I'm about twelve miles
from there, and go set it to the ocean and
listen to a book or meditator or whatever. But uh,
it's in the list there. Another one is on another
book I'm looking at. I think it's it's on the Oh,

(19:57):
I think what there's process now it's called the goal
process of an ongoing improvement. It's called Uh, I forgot that.
It's something theory. I forgot it's called now. I'll give
it in a minute. But uh yeah, I honestly that's
one of the biggest, probably the biggest changes I've made
in my adult career is that book. Still I stumble
across that book and I realized, I'm trying to do

(20:18):
all this stuff myself right, And sometimes when things get stuck,
the best thing to do is to step back and
go who it would be who loves doing this part,
who would be just great at it? And uh, you know,
I afraid of mine always says somebody else is eighty
percent is way more valuable than you're one hundred percent.
So if they can get eighty percent, like, if they

(20:39):
can get eighty percent to the way you would have
done it, that's a lot more valuable then you doing
it at one hundred percent your way, because now you
have all your time back and you can focus on
something that's more important.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
And how and how you actually do that For your
listeners out there, Ron and what I've experienced is like
with small business owners, you built something from scratch right
at your baby, you have whether people want to admit
it or not, especially men us being a little bit
more masculine, like you have some very very deep emotional

(21:12):
attachment to your business. So just saying, oh, yeah, in theory,
this person is better at doing this than me, I
just need to find them put them in place. Well,
the emotional process that I've seen for myself and then
other businesses that I've advised, is that they want to
do that, but they have this level of control around them,

(21:35):
not because they're control freaks, but because they have built
something and they built this emotional resonance around them. And
actually letting go of that control and allowing others to
do it without pissing them off, you know, it's it's
something that's hard. And you know what I found is
I was when I was actually able to let go
of the control I was and watching someone else do it,

(21:58):
you know, I was actually better at them and doing
it in the beginning. But me being more of a
visionary versus an operator, I'm kind of in the middle
on it. I wouldn't say I'm I'm one on one
end of the spectrum. But you know, handing operator type
duties over to someone, so that's that's really their Logitian

(22:19):
mind is way more focused on that than I am.
You know, they quickly became better at doing those duties
than I did. You know, I was definitely more adept
and better at it from the beginning. But then once
I handed over allowed them to do it their way,
even though it wasn't as efficient of mine in the past,
then they did it, and they started doing it and
doing it and doing it, and next thing, you know,

(22:39):
it's like, wow, why didn't I do this sooner?

Speaker 2 (22:42):
Absolutely, Like even in this podcast when it was first podcast,
I edited everything, did everything myself, and I brought out
a virtual assistant to help schedule stuff. And one day
I was just kind of getting involved behind and I
asked her, so, would you like to learn how to
edit videos? She was, oh, I'd love to always want
to learn how to do that. So I gave her
four or five YouTube videos, and I gave her an
episode and I said, uh, here's here's three or four

(23:02):
YouTube videos and teach you how to use it. And
this is before descript and some of the cool tools
that made it easy, and uh, she did the first one.
We had to go back and forth a couple of
times on it. By the time she was doing her
third or fourth one, it was better than I was doing. Right,
And now with all these extra tools, she cranks them
out and I don't you know, I pretty much just
get on the mic. Everything else is a you know,
a machine, right. Uh, she schedules, saying she picks out

(23:24):
really cool people, like I got on the call with
you yesterday. I didn't even know who you were, and
I should have looked you up a little bit, but
I was doing calls, but I had ten minutes been
between calls yesterday. So yesterday Tuesdays are usually my busiest day,
so I jumped on. I was like, Okay, who the
hell are you? Why are we on this call? And
you know, you were really kind and gracious to tell
me who you are what you've done, and I was like, okay,

(23:45):
this is really cool. But I've automated this to the
point where I just got on the mic and talked
to really cool people and then I handed over to
her and uh, and you know, and she does the
rest that awesome. Now something clicked in you, because like
a lot of people. They do one to deal. They
make some money in there. Good You've been doing this
for a while and across multiple industries. I'm looking up
at the nose looks like cannabis to clean energy. Do

(24:06):
you have something something in my notes in fashion? Is that?
Is that a mistake? I know you got something in
that space too. So talking about a breath of different things, right,
what's is there a comment thread across all of them
other than finance?

Speaker 1 (24:18):
You know there there's not other than I believe that
the small business space has I'm a big believer in this,
the spirit of small business, and you know that that
vision that is established, whether it's articulated or not, there's
that purpose in that vision when that entrepreneur starts their business.

(24:40):
I truly believe that that's carried on throughout the business.
And when you understand that all businesses are the same
in the sense that they're run by people who knows
how the artificial intelligence is gonna get.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Like that, how that was to last?

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Right? I Mean, obviously there's going to be automations and
technologies to help support us, but at the end of
the day, you know, people are what moved the needle
and if you can build a good team, the world's
your oyster. And like, I didn't believe that until I
actually went into my second industry, like hands on and

(25:21):
what like you had mentioned the cannabis space. So I
was in accounting, fans, capital raising, and a service industry,
and then I made a just one hundred and eighty
degree pivot and a product, a cultivation, and a D
two C website distribution in the cannabis space. I'm offed
the floors, I cleaned the tanks, I lollipopped, I trimmed.

(25:43):
I beginning to end from seed to sale to learn
how the business was run. But once I understood the
different components of the business, I'm like, this is the
exact same. It's not the exact same. It's very very
similar to what I was doing this other industry. It's
just run a business that has a different purpose.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, what are you doing hydrophonics? You said something about
clean the tanks.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, yeah, it was about ninety percent of it. We
did have a living soil room, yeah, but most of
most of it was flood and drain. We had deep
water culture, we had top trip, a lot of different methods,
but mainly it was flood and drain the top trip.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
So do you grew that business and then you did
a you know, exiting.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Did you sell it in the process of exiting?

Speaker 2 (26:33):
Okay? So, but I.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Haven't been involved other than on the board for over
a year now.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
So what are the other industries that you did? So
everybody else knows I read, I read your bio. I
know what they are. But what are some of the
other industries you've done roll ups in?

Speaker 1 (26:50):
Well, the finance in the cannabis space or two of
the big ones, more so the finance than the cannabis.
But I mean there's been there have been a lot
of different industries. Which one are you interested in?

Speaker 2 (27:05):
Ron, I'd seen the fashion What is it talking about fashion?
You buy a fashion company or something, or you build one.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
So I did not build one. That's one that I
am an investor in. I was a seat investor in.
And they do fashion through junk the companies actually called
junk Coture. The founders from Ireland. And his whole purpose
is he wants to turn fashion into a sport for

(27:33):
those that aren't inclined, aren't the sports type. And he
wasn't necessarily a big a big sports person and he
felt like that, you know, you can still He knew
that you could still be ultra competitive even if he
didn't play sports. So what they do is that they
have they've partnered with some of the big top accounting

(27:55):
firms and credit card like some really big sponsors across
the globe, and they'll have these huge events in Paris,
New York, Dubai, and these children will create fashion, these huge,
elaborate and ornate dresses out of trash. I mean you
look at them and you're like, wow, this looks like
like someone a you know, Gucci made, or you know

(28:19):
some very maybe not Gucci, but a very eclectic type,
you know, artists. And so they go on the runway
and they show their you know, show their dresses and
fashion and stuff. So that's what he's doing. He's turning
fashion into a sport.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah. The one thing that I think we're missing out
on and out and if we'll ever adapt to it,
is going back to your Canada, cannabis in industry is
for paper. For many of the products on the planet,
including a tool of paper and a lot of other things.
There's no there's no necessary necessity anymore to ever cut
down another tree through hemp production and even bamboo and
some other stuff we have out there. It could be

(28:58):
totally replaced, but yet we don't do it right, and
we still have regulations about growing it in certain places,
and you know, it's kind of frowned upon. It makes
better clothing most you know I you know, most cotton
based products or polyester and all that other stuff too. Right,
the hippies had it right back in the sixties and

(29:18):
seventies with hip based products. How do we get back
to you were using and getting society to buy in
on that, right, There's some people that tried, right, It's
just I don't see it taken off.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
You know. One of the things that I think will
be an integral component is the the younger generations, for
at least from from what I've heard and studied, is
they really have a true purpose driven will inside them
whenever they want to work for a company, And if
they don't see that there, then they're not going to

(29:50):
do it in many, many, if not most cases. So
you get those younger generations to embrace that entrepreneurial spirit
of creating, of innovating, of figuring out new things, then
I really think that that's that's how it's going to
go because these kids are super bright and you know,

(30:10):
probably way smarter than us just from the information they've
been able to assimilate through the you know, the digital
era that we've had over the past ten to fifteen
years since you know, Facebook really revolutionized it. So they
start embracing how they can live purpose driven lives and

(30:32):
be entrepreneurs at the same time. Then I think that's
how most of our problems are going to get solved
from those younger generations.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
I see on your website and some of the other products
you say you refer to the magic of M and
A and turning, or the magic of growth and stuff
and turning the science of M and A into an
art or art into a science. What do you do
differently than the rest of the guys? I mean, what
is this magic you refer to?

Speaker 1 (30:58):
So one of the quotes I have is growth is
a transformation where the unknown becomes your competitive edge. And
you know, a lot of people associate that word magic
as a connotation is mysterious, cryptic, misunderstood, and yeah, all
that's true, but when you look at it, magic is

(31:19):
really something you don't understand because it's not it's not
necessarily a one plus one equals two situation. So the
method is that logic, it's that structure, the systems, the processes,
you know, those typical operational type things you need you

(31:39):
having a balance with that side, but also to answer
your question on the magic side, it's understanding the one
plus one equals three situations and that's where creativity comes in.
Intuition comes in those where creativity comes in those will
solve says that map over to a small business. That

(32:00):
really comes down to obviously it's on a case by
case basis with the with the business that you're working in,
but when you get subject matter experts in industries, it
comes down to the people and how does their knowledge,
how does that team intel or that team intellect when
they're working together, how can they create magic i e.

(32:21):
Discover the unknown that most of the other And again
it's not some dark magic that there's some secret formula
as the alchemist created back back in the day, but
it's it's creating the unknown where or discovering the unknown
where most people you know don't understand it. And then
just incorporating that into the logic side.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
Now in the in your coaching and speaking and stuff
like that. Is the primary growth strategy you teach is
that through words of acquisitions or you give them. Is
there something you want a company? Is there a process
you put a company through before that they need to
do before they're ready to acquire another one you need
to get at your house in orders first? Or can
you just go buy a company?

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah? So I use a lot. That's a great question, Ron.
I use a lot of different methodologies. There's EOS that's
out there, entrepreneur operating system. They're scaling up through vern Harness,
which is an amazing you know, high level thinking process.
There's all kinds of different things out there, but like
kind of the basics that a business needs that I
feel like need to be in place before you add

(33:25):
on that what I call capex flex a capital expenditure flexing,
you know, putting that M and a strategy in there.
Those building blocks you need are really the strategy the
first one, the people, the execution, and the cash. And
you get those components in the strategy and the people
being more of the magic and intuition side, and then

(33:48):
the execution the cash being more the logitian or structural side.
You know, you get a small business typically in the
range of a million to three to five then obviously
pen on the end and margins and all that. But
you get a business in that range and you implement it.
You know, when they're in that quote value of death

(34:08):
for small businesses where they're either going to grow or
retract and go back into a smaller revenue type range,
you implement those systems there and get that in place.
Then you can really throw on that M and a
process in the small business space that will allow you
to utilize that leverage and high growth.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
That's awesome. And then when did you think the company
is ready to exit or do you grow? These things?
You build them really well. If you build them to exit,
they're running really well. What's your great indicator to a
founder that's time to start looking maybe I should sell this.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
A lot of that comes down to what's the goal
of the founder? Where's his head or her Where is
his or her head at? You know, where are they
in the emotional process? Sometimes the business outgrows the founder
and you know, whether they want to leave or they
don't want to leave, you know, is some soul searching
oftentimes has to be done. At least it wasn't My

(35:05):
case for one of my businesses is that you know,
if the business has outgrown what you've done, or you're
just in a different space where you want to move on,
then that's when it needs to exit. Now. Now, whether
you're going to get your maximum dollar dollar output, depending
on the stage of business that you're in, the profitability,
the people that are in place, all that, it is
a totally different question. But yeah, when is a good

(35:29):
time to exit? I think as long as you're putting
the business first, it comes down to, you know, where's
the entrepreneur and founder's head at.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
People don't get that sometimes if you look at the
VC world in some of the other spaces, if you
watch what they do, it's a it's a different skill
set and a different sometimes often a different person. They
can take a company from idea to first customer, and
then first customer to first thousand dollars first cut. You know,
maybe you know, maybe first thousand dollars up to the

(35:59):
first million million, and and then there's somewhere in there
in between that million and a half. Sometimes in the industry,
maybe it's five to seven million dollars revenue that you've
kind of outgrown that CEO or that skill set and
he has to either learn and adapt or it has
to be replaced so it can can it so it
can scale, so it can become the five to ten
million to twenty million, thirty million. So if you look

(36:19):
at the way the VC routes, a lot of people
are like, they don't want to sell the VC or
work with VC's because they're going to replace me as
the founder at certain point. Well, if you grow right,
maybe not. But it is a very common theme to
see at certain stages, you know, where they have to
pull the leadership out, even the big companies. If you
looked at I think it was Larry Ellison and his

(36:40):
partner on Oracle, right, they stepped away for a walk
because they realized they've taken Oracle as far as they
could take it. And then they went back and mentors,
got mentored and worked with the new CEOs and worked
with some people. Now they're back, or they were back
last time. I looked, as I guess it's final walls.
That's I look. But I'm just saying it takes a
lot of internal reflection to know if you've taken it
as far as you can take.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, that's why I have a lot of respect for
some of those CEOs, like Tony Shea, who you know
was the founder and CEO of Zappos. Is. Yeah, he
ended up exiting and selling to Amazon, but the different
emotional leveling up type stages that he had to go through,

(37:25):
you know, he could have exited so many times along
that path, but it just speaks to his emotional confidence,
his his business acumen for him to be able to
grow from from nothing to a five million to ten million,
one hundred million a billion dollar company. That's a different
level of expertise for each of them. I'll obviously missed

(37:45):
some steps along the way, but that's a different level
of expertise and how you run those companies and the
ability for someone to do that is obviously rare. But
you know, figuring out, hey, if you're at that hundred
million dollars stage then and reckon I you don't have
the ability to move that next step. No that you
there's still great ways to exit. You know, you can

(38:06):
still sell and then take a second third fourth by
the Apple through Pe or you know, whatever whatever method
you go to do it right, So it's it's not
necessarily that you have to you know, exit like leave,
but you more so step.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Aside, take some chips off that table, and if you
pick your pe firm right, you're surrounded by mentors and
people that will guide you and make sure that you
don't fellow going on. Sometimes you stay in the same role,
and sometimes you're not equipped to be in that role.
It's you know, that's a discussion between the seller and
the pe firm. But I've seen I've interviewed Adam Coffee

(38:41):
and some other people who went through multiple steps of
that right and they got a piece of buy exit,
you know, exited his company at some three point four
or four point three billion dollars at the end of it. Right,
There's something to be said for that to choosing the
right people to be around you, the right pe firm,

(39:01):
because they can be that bridge. They can be they
can put a board in directors and then can give
you that site insight and knowledge and say say, hey, no,
you're heading left, you should probably go a little right
right now right, But not everybody. There's something to be
said for the people that can do that because they're
they get they get out of their own way right.

(39:22):
A lot of times their own ego, especially as guys
we we want to do things the way we want
to do it because that we think we've got to
figure it out, and to know that you don't is
a very high emotional intelligence level.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, you mentioned coffee, is it? Adam Coffee? Is that? Yeah?
The PE Playbook, you know, I think I think he
said something along the lines of one of his most
successful stints was obviously it took a lot of building
to get up to that, but you know, over a course,
maybe it was a year, he had like three or

(39:58):
four eight figure paydays from different businesses that he invested in,
you know, over time, and you know, just I feel
like that book, the p Playbook is uh says a
lot of the good with it, but I think on

(40:19):
the whole, like the Logitian mindset of those PE firms
and how to multiply shareholder value is is something that
most entrepreneurs need to read so they can see it
from the other side and how they can see exiting
doesn't have to be you know, as painful as a
process at least that I went through in the beginning.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah, I've inter read him three or four times. A
really cool guy. You can tell the you can tell
it's like you're really laid back, really calm and stuff.
We had some major technical difficulty He had some major
technical difficulties in their first time, and as soon as
he got Hite cleared up, I had an internet issue
and you just stag calling through the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
He cleared out his calendar a little bit. We did
the recording after we both got our tech issues solved,
and it was the most calm I've seen anybody stay through.
Like a lot of people get frustrated when that happens,
he just was laid back, like, oh, we'll fix it right.
And I'm a little nerdy so I could help walk
through some of it. And then as soon as I
got his side working, mind started glitching for an internet
issue here and you know that said, I was really

(41:22):
You know the guys that I see that are really successful,
you ad them coffee and other stuff. They just have
a demeanor about him. They've seen enough trauma and stress
through business that when something little happens, they're like, yeah,
we can get through this, right. You just don't. You
don't take things the heart. You don't get twisted up
so much and so fast as some of the newer
guys in this space who know, well, we're you know,

(41:43):
you know, well, my system's not working on it's had
to reschedule, Like you know, they get frustrated and don't
want to go through it. I was like, OK, good luck,
mind a company if you're going to have that mentality
of like, as soon as something gets tight and weird
and doesn't work quite right, you go, I'm done. I'll
have somebody else look at this. Right.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, for sure, I agree.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
You're on cool. So we've covered a lot of topics.
I feel like I'm missing something. I've asked you a
lot of questions about the different industries and stuff. What
do you think What do you think I should be asking?
What are some of the areas that you love talking
about when you're on the stage, when you're out there
telling the world about this space and what you do
and what you're capable of helping businesses with. What did

(42:21):
we not highlight in this conversation.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
I think just the component of and I'd like to
mention on this earlier, the component of trust when it
comes down to everyone that you're working with, everything from
hiring an employee to vendor partner relationships that you have
in business to you your key employees, the communication rhythm

(42:48):
that's involved. That's you know, what's that quote? It goes
like trust is a glue of life. Trust, but verify.
You know, there's so many different elements of trusts that
are required in business that you know, if that if
that component isn't there, then a lot of these philosophical
things we've been talking about, or even a lot of

(43:08):
the practical things we've been talking about, you know that
it'll fall apart. So just making sure that you're understanding
how to build trusting relationships, getting things start, you know,
really listening to your gut whenever you're approaching something that
that's at least in my experience, that will through failure

(43:28):
and success, that'll that will save you a lot of
headache and heartache down the road.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
I tell people that I get people that say, well,
how do you build trust? And I said, not by speaking,
it's always bay listening. The way you build trust is
ask people questions and truly listen to them, active listen,
really truly listen to what they're saying, and then ask
them deeper questions about that. Because as soon as people
realize you care, as soon as people realize you want

(43:55):
to connect, most people are open to it, right. There
are some cultures in some of the people, like you know,
may feel like you're being a little nosy or whatever.
But most of the time, if you truly are we
you know, in a strategic way, empathetic and and just
want to hear where they're out in life, what are
their challenges, what are they what are they trying to accomplish,
and see how I can help you get there. That

(44:17):
is the absolute fastest way to build report and trust
with somebody. A lot of people think they have to
few all their accolades and all their degrees and all
that and that's going to be trust. It usually doesn't.
It usually sets off a red flag.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yeah, I think to that point. One of the quotes
that I that resonates when I when I heard you
was people don't care about how much they know, don't
care about how much you know until they know about
how much you care. And you know that's that's that
emotional component, that that magic component that I talked about,
and the whole M and A and small business and

(44:52):
entrepreneur space.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Yeah, it's like you you sit down with a business
owner he's thinking about selling and you just say, Okay, great,
I'm in them buying. What are all the numbers? You
miss the biggest component? You know. I always start with, well, cool,
could you tell me about what you built here? And
tell me the history of this business? Why did you
build this? How did you build this? What are the
biggest challenges in it? Right? My sense of humor allows

(45:15):
me to do things that a lot of people do
can't do because people realize it is a sense of humor.
But it's not uncommon for me to go out Of
all the people you could be talking them too on
the phone, what the hell has you on the phone
with a guy that buys and sells companies? You surely
have something better to do in your life, right, And
I say it differently with different tonality, but kind of
a joking jest. But people will open up, but like, well,

(45:37):
you know, you know I'm doing this or that. And
one of the things I always do is I go
deeper at least three times, because whatever they tell you
in the surface level, until they know you and have
that rapport, probably not the true answer. Like, yeah, we're
just kind of we're thinking about retiring, we need the money,
and I just simply do the NLP thing. The last
three questions. There are last three words and say retire,

(45:58):
need the money, and then that's you a little bit
more and they do the same thing. And after the
first or fourth death of it, you'll find a real reason. Right, Yeah,
they've got grand fields now and they want to spend
more time with them. They have an illness that they
want to take care and get their health back, all
the different stuff. But that trust and report comes from
asking good, better questions and truly trying to understand the

(46:19):
answer and figuring out if that's the true answer, if
there's something underneath it. What have you what have you
seen in building trust? Is it different than that or
do you have a different approach to it?

Speaker 1 (46:28):
No, I mean I think just to expand aways that
I agree the way I frame it is. So there's
a Harvard study that came out that I was supported
in the ink article that was released recently that I
talked in and seventy percent of mergers and acquisitions fail
and whenever you so I was thinking about that, it's like, well,

(46:52):
how do we break that down? There's a lack of
trust is at the heart of it. But where does
that lack of trust fall in? And there's six key
components that I've created. I'm sure others have as well.
This is just how I frame it of what you're
actually buying an acquisite in an acquisition or a merger.

(47:13):
And this is none of this has to do with
the money. Like, yes, you're buying cash flow, you're buying
profit all that, but what are the non tangible factors?
And the first one is time, so you can't you
can't create that almost anything else that you do. You're
buying time and an acquisition, you're buying customers as the
second one. The third one is A players. You know,

(47:37):
hopefully A players are not B or C players, but
you're buying A players in an acquisition as long as
you're doing your diligence right. You're buying cross selling opportunities,
you're buying op EX efficiencies, and one of the most
important things of all those is you're also you're buying
team intel. So when you look at all six of

(47:57):
those components, trust is if trust is broken down with
the customers with the eight players, with the team intel
trying to integrate those op X efficiencies, trying to cross
sell to customers selling them something different, if that trust
component isn't there or is broken down, then that M
and A is going situation is going to fall apart

(48:19):
in a lot of situations. And that's why I think
seventy percent m and as fail that business and fails
a relative term, right. It may be that you know,
they had a million in revenue and they go to
half million in revenue, so they're gonna have to make cuts,
and that business goes elsewhere, and deservingly so it does.
So it's all about understanding that trust within those different

(48:40):
components of when you buy a business.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
What are some of the trust disruptors in emergent acquisitions?
The reason they fail is because the trust was there
with their previous owner. Most likely they wouldn't be succeeding,
they wouldn't have been bought, and then you acquire it
and that's a little bit of distrust because of the unknown.
But there are some things we can do as merging
and acquisitions people that truly disrupt that trust. And what
do you in my mind, I have some of them,

(49:04):
you know, pinned out, But what are some of the
things that you think a lot of these guys are
doing right off the bat or too soon that further
betray the trust of the unknown, right, So they don't
know whether or not they trust this new buyer. It
might have been one of their competitors, and they've been
trained for the last ten years not to trust that.
That's the big bad you know, those guys are trying
to take us out and they just acquired us. Other

(49:25):
than that, what do you think causes a lot of this?

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Just a lot of the basics and understand the business
and what runs the business, which is customers and which
is employees. So what are some of the mistakes that
are made? Not prioritizing culture fits, not integrating culture, that's
a big deal. Whatever. Even some of the smaller companies
that initially bought we were only adding on one or

(49:51):
two employees. It took time, and they were a lot
of more great employees. It took time to integrate them
into our culture. And so if you're not prioritizing that
how they're operating, then you're not going to get the
economies of scale. Another mistake that I think has made
is is you don't And one of the mistakes that

(50:13):
I made is, at least with my my fifth acquisition,
you know, I went too big. You know, it was
it was a leverage to buy out, and we had
a lot of fortunate things happen in that transaction to
where we kept well above twenty five percent in net margins,
but we lost a million dollars plus in revenue. Because

(50:34):
it was a leveraged buyout, we were too small too.
For the listeners that don't know, leverage buyouts is simply
buy it using debt to buy a company that's it's
larger than yours, which puts a lot a lot of
risk on the balance sheet. But so that was the
ego of myself as the entrepreneur. It's like, oh, I
saw this big picture vision of what we could accomplish,

(50:55):
but I really should have bought a smaller company in
that and in that same situation. So you know, starting
small for entrepreneurs allows them to look at all those
different moving components and mergers and acquisitions, so they're mistakes
that they will make because those will happen, especially in
your first acquisition, you can mitigate your risk. So whenever

(51:19):
you're facing issues like how do you align the goals
from the previous company to last, how do you prioritize
culture fit, how do you how do you map out
that time to integration of communicating with it with the customers,
and making sure you have an e NPS score, you know,
that net Promoter score for the employees and the customers

(51:39):
to make sure that the the integration's going well. Does
that I went kind of down a rabbit hole there,
Ron that does that make sense? Answer your question?

Speaker 2 (51:48):
They did answer the question, And I honestly think one
of the biggest core components to underline all that is change. Right,
We're so resistant to change as human beings. There's entire
sections of the libraries written, you know, on change management
and who've moved my cheese and stuff? That being bought
by another company is a big change anyway. I think
we rush in as as acquisition entrepreneurs. I think we

(52:10):
rush in a little two gung host sometimes start making
changes before we understand their culture and how their culture
fits in, before we understand like what their real problems
are and what the employee's perception of those problems are. Right,
I think the smartest thing that a lot of companies
should do is buy a company and then observe it
for a little while, and then sit down with all

(52:30):
the employees and see what their needs are and what
they think with their perception of the biggest changes need
to be made, and see where that overlaps with the
ones you know need to be made, and start with those,
because then you are doing something the customer or the
sorry the employees of that new company they thought needed
to be done. Anyway, you build rapport and trust because
you change some things they've been wanting to change for years.

(52:51):
And then eventually when you get down to your list
of stuff you also need to be changed, they might
be a little more open to it. Because you tackled
the big items that were on their mind. They feel
heard and vindicated for all the times maybe trying to
get those other things changed. I think we changed things
too fast. And you know, I've interviewed a lot of
people three hundred now, and that's some of them who

(53:12):
lost all their employees within their first three weeks of
buying something because they went and changed everything in day two. Right.
I think psychologically as humans were so adverse and wanting
to be that I wanted to go in and to
be just like it was yesterday. I don't want it improved,
I don't want it worse. I just want to go
do what I do. I want to do my job
clock ind and go home. And unfortunately even the A

(53:34):
players sometimes fall into that routine of wanting the same routine,
so we disrupt that when we do what we do.
There's no way around it other than how do you
mitigate that and maintain trust or that disruption.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
Yeah, one of the things that I back to what
I was telling you about my dad, and he said,
you know, if you go to college, just or when
you go to college, just make sure you go to class.
I don't really care what you do after that, but
go to class. One of the things I learned in
my statistics class, remember doctor Stebon Walker's you know he
put that parabola up there, and when you map that
statistical principle of the different types of people that how

(54:15):
they accept change. You know, from from the bottom decile,
that that thin part you have the the pioneers, and
then you have the optimists, and then you have the pessimists,
and then you have that that right side of the
parabola you have the cynics. And how those people are
adapting to change. I mean, you changed too much, Like

(54:38):
you're even your pioneer is going to be like, hey,
like who are extremely risk averse? Right, and we're willing
to take on a lot of change. They're going to
be like, hey, this is too much. And and you
you take a look at a practical situation with employees,
like most of them aren't in that in that that
first decile there on on that on that parabola. I mean,

(54:59):
you've you've talking to add On Coffee and a lot
of other people in that M and a growth space.
What do you run? What do you feel like? Is
like one of the main components that we haven't talked
about with all the different people that you've spoken to.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
I know there's other side of it too, right, We
talked about we talk about the people that we talked
about the trust, we talk about rapport, we talk about
you know, culture and stuff like that. One of the
things I think and we talked about you talked about
a leverage deal. One of the things I need I
think that people need to iron in their head is
they're taking a company that they're buying and unless they
have a full hundred percent cash down, they're laying debt

(55:36):
in some type of debt coverage and debt, you know,
a financial burden onto that company it's never had before.
Right there. It hasn't had in a long time, and
now you have to figure out how does it handle
that pressure? That pressure right, especially if you don't if
you don't really analyze that company and understand that all
companies have cycles, and you're playing a game of if

(55:57):
you bought it in an up cycle and you did
your debt, you know debt to you know income ratios
and everything, you think you're fine and all sayden, you
get a down cycle and everything's really super lean. What
are you gonna do? Right, So, understanding that the cycles
of business and weatherstand that you're layering something on top
of that company. That it's when you're stressed out because debt,

(56:17):
the employees fill it. When the company is stressed out
and has to make certain numbers because they have certain
bills to pay. It affects every level of that company, right,
So just making sure that there's enough margins and enough
breathing rooms where it's not affecting it to a level
that's detrimental. I see too many people go out and
they leverage themselves to a hilt to buy a company

(56:38):
and the company, yeah it pays a little bit of profit,
they're going to take themselves a salary if everything goes
the way it's going. Now, that's the other one I
would say, I just really got to look out for.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
Yeah, that's a good point. I'm not I wasn't in
the business world at this time, but from what I've
studied the little that I've heard, I think it was
in the eighties when there were a lot of the
or maybe early nineties from all of those LBA as
were going on. Is you know, their pro formas were, hey,
what if things go just average? Not even hey if
things go great? What if things go average? They didn't

(57:10):
factor in, like you said, where's a business in the
life cycle? And that's something that you really don't know
when you're buying a business is like where you may
have a sense given multiples on ebitdah and all that,
but industries are changing all the time and those numbers
are moving targets. So if you think that you're buying
at a downtime and it's really kind of in the

(57:31):
middle or even on the top end, you better make
sure your pro forma can sustain cash flow of a
thirty forty fifty downturn or that that's going to take
control of you.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
We are running out of time then I looked up
were I didn't even realize how much time we're out
an hour of fifteen minutes here? So oh wow, three
key takeaways. Let's just do this. I think we're at a
good spot. We've covered a lot of stuff. If somebody
can only walk away remembering one or two, maybe three
things from this show today, what would you want them
to remember?

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Method and magic equals alchemy.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Method and magic equals out with you? Okay? And then
how do people reach out to you? Man? You're an
incredible guy. If somebody wants to work with you or
have you speak at one of their conferences and stuff,
what is the best way to contact you?

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Just Davidmillert buzz and that's my Instagram handle. Just dm me.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Thereka give me David Miller dot buzz yep. Oh cool,
all right, Well, people know how to get ahold of you.
Now I'll put the information you gave me in the
show notes too, and so we'll make sure that's that
for the people. Any last words before we say goodbye everybody?

Speaker 1 (58:31):
No, Ron, I appreciate your time. And you know I'm
in the the mn A world and buying companies and
advising companies on how to grow, so if you have
any opportunities, let me know and I'll certainly do the
same for you. If you tell me what you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
Awesome, well thank you. We'll call that a show and
the hold on for a few seconds.

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