E288: Les Csorba Reveals the Real Reason Most Leaders Don’t Last

About the Guest:
Les Csorba is a partner at Heidrick & Struggles, specializing in CEO and board succession, primarily in the energy sector. With roots in the first Bush administration’s Presidential Personnel Office, Les has spent 30+ years advising leaders. His new book Aware: The Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly dives deep into the science and practice of self-awareness in leadership.

Summary:
On the How2Exit Podcast, Ron Skelton sits down with Les Csorba, a veteran executive coach, author, and partner at Heidrick & Struggles. With more than three decades in executive search and CEO coaching, Les shares a powerful perspective: leadership—not just capital, strategy, or technology—is the determining factor in building and sustaining successful businesses. His insights highlight why self-awareness, humility, and feedback cultures matter more than ever in today’s high-stakes M&A environment.

The conversation digs into the nuances of finding the right CEO, avoiding the trap of “people pleasing,” and why so many deals fail due to culture, not spreadsheets. Les also teases his new book Aware: The Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly, where he unpacks why most leaders think they’re self-aware but aren’t—and what it takes to close that gap.

The Key Takeaways:

Leadership Greater than Capital or Strategy: While capital, strategy, and technology are vital, Les stresses that leadership is the real driver of long-term business success.

The Self-Awareness Factor: The best leaders balance strong confidence with humility and candid self-reflection—an incredibly rare skill set.

People Pleasing Is a Blind Spot: Over half of leaders identify as people pleasers, which often results in poor decisions like leaving the wrong people in key roles.

Feedback Culture is Essential Great organizations don’t wait for annual reviews—they create ongoing, transparent feedback loops where leaders and teams hold each other accountable.

Integration Is Where Deals Fail Many M&A transactions collapse not over numbers, but because two cultures can’t align. Leadership due diligence is as critical as financial diligence.

Few CEOs Last Long-Term Most CEOs average 5–6 years in the role; exceptions like Jamie Dimon succeed by reinventing themselves and empowering strong lieutenants.

Blind Spots Are Universal Every leader has blind spots. The real question is whether they have the courage to name and engage them.

The Digital Age Hurts Self-Awareness Constant distractions from technology and social media erode the reflective space leaders need to truly know themselves.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the How to Acceit Podcasts, where
we introduce you to a world of small to medium
business acquisitions and mergers. We interview business owners, industry leaders, authors,
mentors and other influencers with the sole intent to share
with you what it looks like to buy or sell
a business.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Let's get rolling.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
And now a moment for our sponsors, I want to
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(00:55):
multi platform mobile magazine speaks to acquisition entrepreneurs wheretherver they
are in the and I want you to visit acquisition
Afficionado dot com today. Hello and welcome to the Hot
Aches podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Today. I'm here with Leshoorba and he is.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
The CEO coach, he's an author, he is a partner
at Hedrick and Struggles. They do premier executive search, a
leader in this industry and I'm really looking for the
conversation today. I see that you have one book out,
You've got another one coming out. I'm really interested in
the topic that you like to write about. It's true

(01:30):
to my heart, so that we're gonna have a fun
conversation today and I'm hoping to learn from you, so
that that's the goal of these shows is if I
can learn from you, then our audience gets to learn.
So thank you for being here today.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Less Thanks Ron, I appreciate you having me on.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
You have a really interesting past. I always have people
start with their origin story so that the audience can
kind of bond with who they're listening to. But you
have a really interesting past, some working with some fairly
famous people. So can you give us our origin story
kind of what led you to where you're at now,
and then'll hold back tell us you know, this is
the time to teach your horn a little bit so

(02:05):
you can let the audience know.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
Well, thank you.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
I really started in government when I was in college
in California, the University.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
Of California at Davis.

Speaker 4 (02:15):
I was very fortunate to land an internship in the
United States Senate and it was between my junior and
senior year, and I really enjoyed Washington and the history,
and so I went back there after I graduated and
ultimately joined was fortunate and blessed to be part of

(02:37):
the first Bush administration in presidential personnel for four years,
really handling the appointment process, and when that ended in
nineteen ninety two, the natural transition for me in business
was executive search, recruiting, head hunting, if you will, and
have been in that business now, you know, thirty two
thirty three years primarily on Houston, so as you can imagine,

(03:02):
focus primarily in the energy business, the oil and gas business.
So I do a lot of CEO and board succession
work advising energy companies on CEO succession, board succession, another
leadership consulting, and I do some coaching. I coach some
CEOs and executives, which is which is a lot of fun.
And anyways, that's that's a quick snapshot of my story.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
So as the executive search, so one of the reasons
I like, yeah, let's get this guy on here was
because of that. Every entrepreneur that's out there looking to
buy companies, I'd say sixty percent of them have this
either dream or some oftimes it's a fallacy, but they're
going to buy a company put another operator in place,
they're going to go find themselves a CEO to run it,
and they're going to go buy another company. They're going

(03:48):
to be the more of a passive investor. And I
think they underestimate what it truly fought is to find
a great operator, an executive, How long an executive search
call takes, what that can cost, and how to even choose.
Most of these guys don't even know how to pick.
They've never been a great leader, so they don't know
how to pick one either. They don't know how to

(04:09):
identify something right. So I'm interested in your thoughts on
what does that process look like? What what makes a
great leader? Well, just just break it down. Let's what
does the process of finding somebody that can run a
company look like?

Speaker 2 (04:27):
What is that? What does that mean? What are the
process you go through?

Speaker 4 (04:31):
Yeah, I mean I I start with the bias. And
it probably doesn't surprise you or your listeners that, you know,
leadership is the key factor in in building and and
and you know, leading a successful business. So I often
get teased some of my friends in banking or in
management consulting that, you know, some make the argument that

(04:54):
it's it's all about the capital, you know, or the
strategy or the technology.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
By the way, those are all important. You got to
have all of that.

Speaker 4 (05:00):
But if you don't have the right leadership, you know,
driving your strategy, driving your technology, and figuring out how
to allocate capital, it's just not going to work. So
I think the businesses that I've seen that have been
sustained and successful over the years, that have created great
value for the shareholders have outstanding leadership. And you know,

(05:23):
very simply, ron I would say the leaders that have
resonated and have been the best of the best over
the years are those that are extremely self aware. They
tend to have to contradictory what seems to be contradictory qualities.
They have incredible self belief and determination and confidence without
the self absorption, And if you think about it, that's

(05:45):
hard to pull off unless you have high self awareness.
So that's really that's really the argument I make in
the book.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, I believe heavily that all of us are riddled
with tons of different into biases, and that we don't
a lot of times we don't even acknowledge or know
that we have them.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right, and to be aware of your.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Own areas of need and needs improvement to be willing
to work on them is a special class of human mean,
not everybody exhibits that. It's a very high level of
emotional intelligence that enables somebody to be able to get Okay,
I believe I can get this done, but I'm going
to need some help in this area, in this area
because those are my weak points, right.

Speaker 4 (06:31):
Yeah, so yeah, yeah, And everything unfortunately right now in
our culture seems to be working against, you know, developing
self awareness or high self awareness. So you have to
work hard. You have to be intentional and disciplined about it.
There's just so many distractions obviously, our digital culture, our
social social media world, technology, all these wonderful productivity tools.

(06:56):
They're they're incredible, but at the same time they can
make a gate self awareness. So leaders have to be
very intentional about it. They have to be willing to
have candid conversations with their team and ask the question, hey,
how did I show up in that last meeting? You know,
tell me, you know where did I shine? You know
where did I really stand out? But where did I

(07:17):
kind of fall down? And have those candid, brave conversations
that are essential in building self awareness.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, I hear a lot of that.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
I'm everybody's whole, perfect and complete just the way they are.
It's like, yeah, as long as you're willing to realize
that you're a whole, perfectly and completely a mess sometimes, right,
So that there's this whole I think area in this in.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Today's society that everybody's.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Trying to push that we're all whole, perfect and complete
no matter who we are, and that just doesn't leave
any room for improvement, right, you know, you can't be whole,
perfect and complete and be somebody who needs better communication
or somebody who you know doesn't step over people in
meetings or or whatever. We all have room for improvement, right,

(08:04):
And I like the I like the I like being
around the positive world.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
But there's also the time for self reflection and improvement
and how do other people perceive you? So that's that's
impressive that you take that approach, because so many people
like just look at history, right. They want to say, oh,
they cook this company from zero to a million, or
from a million to one hundred million, right, and they

(08:29):
don't look at why, right, or they just think well
it was technical leadership, or they think it was financial
leadership when I think it's a more holistic view to say,
you know, there are quite a few people out there
who have great communication skills, great skills of raising capital
and getting things going, but they don't have the fortitude

(08:52):
too or I won't know what the words I'm looking for.
They just they just can't succeed because you know, they
can't have the technical they're missing one of the other elements.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Right.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
The one thing that's coming to my mind is we
work right. Guy can tell a story, raise money, you know,
get things going. People believe any people are handing him
billions of dollars. But at the end, I don't you know,
it was just on that one. I think there was
a lot of moral issues, right, a lot of issues
where spending money where you weren't that wasn't on track
with the company, over doing things and stuff like that.

(09:25):
But in most cases, I honestly think, what's the old
saying of fish rots from the head down, Right, if
the organization is a foul, it's usually the leader that's
you know, letting them either you know, leading them that
way or letting them letting them stray.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
Yeah, I would I would say that the leaders that
I've admired over the years. The ones that have really
had an impact are those that recognize that they're not
a finished product. And every leader, every successful leader, has
had some adversity and some disappointment mistake valleys that they've

(10:01):
had to go through along the way. And the ones
that learn from those and sort of seize the opportunity
in terms of the lessons from those adversities and setbacks
are the ones that really accelerate and show up as
the best version of themselves later on in their career.
So that starts with some humility, right, You've got to

(10:21):
be able to step back and say, you know what,
what was I missing there in that situation and how
can I learn and grow from it? And I mean,
there's there's so many examples in the book. I mean,
I had the honor of interviewing Jamie Diamond of JP
Morgan Chase, who is probably the most you know, one
of the most iconic CEOs in corporate America today, and

(10:44):
he's very vulnerable, very open about some of the mistakes
he's made in his career. You know, I'll give you
one example. He was at home one day on a
phone call with one of his team members and was
very ab and was berating his team member on the phone,
and his middle daughter started crying and asked his dad,

(11:06):
asked her dad, why are you so angry? Well, that
was that was a wake up moment for Jamie Dimond.
He knew that he needed to show up differently with
his team and that was a lesson taught to him
by his middle daughter. And so consequently, and this was
probably fifteen twenty years ago, you know, he he's still blunt,
he's still direct, but he tries to show up a

(11:28):
little bit more empathetic and with a little more sensitivity.
And I just think the best leaders draw from those
moments of vulnerability and frankly, you know self awareness or
in that case, a lack of self awareness, which is
contributed to a higher self awareness Today, do you.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Think there's any element of happen to have that full gown,
but happen to be able to be blunt, happen to
be able to be harsh when you need to be harsh,
but having the cognitive awareness that you know you should
employ empathy and you know, bringing things down to a
human level. I think if you have one side or
the other, it's a yan yang thing. I don't think

(12:06):
it works.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
If you're just really on the empathetic side and you're
trying to appease everybody, that doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
And if you're really on the you know, excuse my language,
but busting ball side and every that everything has to
be yelled and streamed up and making trash cans, that
doesn't work either.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
So yeah, no, it's a it's a good it's a
good point you raise, ron. I think the the number
one blind spot in corporate America today is people pleasing.
I tend to be the classic people pleasers. So I've
got to be aware, you know, avoiding tough conversations, you know,
this desire to be liked, uh, in the office. It's

(12:43):
it's a real it's a real danger. And there's one
study that I source in the book that over fifty
percent of Americans refer to themselves or think that they're,
you know, people please pleasers. And I see that in
corporate America, and that is pretty destructive.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
So you, yeah, you have to be aware of it.

Speaker 4 (13:03):
You have to understand that that it can be poisonous
in a in an organization and in a culture.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
So you're right, You've got to You've got to be
able to have the balance of being able to speak
blunt truths and uh, but also be empathetic and have
a high level of emotional intelligence and and that just
takes time and takes uh, you know, high self awareness.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
As a consultant in this space, the emerging acquisition space,
usually in small companies, companies in the sub ten million
dollars revenue range SBA Loan Sapar range. I'll tell you
I've probably spoke to over three hundred business easily three
hundred business owners in three years. We did two hundred
for one marketing roll up, but so probably four hundred
or more. One of the biggest flaws is is leaving

(13:48):
people what I call the wrong butts in the wrong seat. Right,
they had maybe they maybe even they have the right
people on the bus, but they allow people to be
in roles and responsibilities they're not excelling at because they're
trying to people please.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Right.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
You know, they've got a sales guy who doesn't churn
out numbers, but he happens to be the son of
one of the loyal employees that's worked there for thirty years.
Or they have somebody who's in tech that you know,
interviewed one guy they had his head tech guy had
no business being in tech. He didn't you know, I'm
a techy from previous trade. Like this guy didn't know
what he was talking about, right, Like he's breaking their

(14:24):
computers left and right because he's trying to figure it out.
But you know, he hired him because it was a
friend's kid and his friend told him he was really
good with computers.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Right.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
So, but the wrong button, the wrong seat is I
you know, I see it at this level, and I'm
sure if you're a people pleaser, that happens at the
biggest level too, right.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
I remember in the bigger corporations that I worked for
back in the day. You know, that was one of
the problems even I did. I left people in the
roles that they didn't.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Excel at because it was easier to leave them there
than it was to replace him.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Sometimes.

Speaker 4 (14:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's a it's a serious issue,
and it's why I think more organizations need to invest
in you know, three sixty referencing and and feedback tools
and other psychometrics to just to be just to help
leaders and business owners and entrepreneurs heighten their awareness and

(15:20):
the people pleasing thing is a real issue.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
I see it every single day.

Speaker 4 (15:25):
I see it in teams, I see it in leaders
I see it in myself. And you've got to constantly
battle against it because you're just you're just not going
to advance an organization or show up as your breast
version of yourself if you're constantly motivated by being liked
by everybody. That's not what leadership is. Leadership is is leading,

(15:47):
and sometimes you have to make tough decisions and unpopular decisions,
and so yeah, it's a it's a real issue.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
So how do you numbers are not the leading indicator
that their trailing indicator. By the time the numbers are affected,
you've really got a problem. What would be a leading
indicator that you've got a good leader in the place.
What would be, you know, something that would help these
business owners and these guys that are listening to the show,
they're talking about hiring CEOs and managers. What were some

(16:19):
of the earlier indicators that they got the right guy
on the job.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
You know, I think you hit on it when you
talked about culture.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
You know, every leader has a shadow, and every organization
reflects the shadow of the leader.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
At the top of the organization.

Speaker 4 (16:35):
So if a leader can understand that they have that
shadow that they can you know, in terms of the
values that they want to model. It all starts at
the top. And so if the culture is healthy, if
there's collaboration, if there is a focus on excellence and
quality and performance, and and there's you know, obviously empathy

(16:59):
and developing of other people, and the leader is modeling
that through his or her shadow every single day. I
think that's a leading indicator. I think another indicator ron
is a leader who engages with the team and is
not isolated, A walk around leader, a leader who asks

(17:22):
and doesn't tell right who who is involved in what
I'd like to refer to as humble inquiry, you know,
walks over to somebody's desk and genuinely and authentically asked,
well what are you working on today? That that's really
important to have that connection. I think, by the way,
and you know, I'm sure you've talked about Elon Musk

(17:44):
on your show. That's one of the measures of his
success as a manager. He tends there's no you know,
there's no hierarchy. He walks around, spends time with the engineers,
you know, sits around a table brainstorms ideas, and I
think that has a lot to do with his remarkable success.
And I see that a lot in organizations and leaders

(18:06):
that are successful. I'll walk around leader who's engaged with
his or her team.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
I used to call that.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
That's what I used to call when I worked at
the side and some of the I call that management.
While walking around, I would, you know, I would block
hours probably you know, I had one hundred and seven
employees when I about that something like that. At one
point there, I've blocked sometimes two or three hours out
a day and go just like, okay, this is my
floor time. Where I would go sit in the network

(18:33):
operating center like okay, what's going on?

Speaker 2 (18:36):
No, No, what's going on in your personal life? What's
going on with? What are you working on? You know what?
You know what can improve your job? Here? I boiled
it down to four questions.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
It's the three of them I ask almost every time,
and the fourth one probably ask people once a quarter.
And maybe I ever simplified it, but everybody's listening to
the show's heard it over and over again.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
It's you know, what are we doing well?

Speaker 1 (18:57):
So he's always patted Patty guys on the back, what's
going what's going well for you?

Speaker 2 (19:00):
What's working right?

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Where can we have some improvements or you know, right,
you know what with wind fixed? And then what are
we totally missing? What are our competitors doing?

Speaker 2 (19:09):
What are you?

Speaker 1 (19:10):
What tools do you if you just had them that
would make your job easily? What's missing? And then once
a quarter, once a quarter or so, I say, hey,
what are we doing? We probably should totally stop.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Right, We're probably doing things that are just a waste
of time and energy we spent.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
They're long past there. This isn't working stage, and we're
still doing them.

Speaker 4 (19:26):
So, yeah, you know what you're referring to, I think
is excellent. It's it's it's creating a feedback culture. You know,
the organizations that really thrive I think have a very
transparent feedback culture where you don't wait until the end
of the year to give a performance review. You're you
have constant feedback every day.

Speaker 3 (19:44):
You know, in the moment.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
Feedback is a gift and when organizations and leaders embrace
it as a gift, man there their organizations really thrive.
I think that's another leading indicator as you put it.
You know, has an organization and it's CEO or a
president of a company or an owner created a feedback
culture where they are receptive and open to getting feedback

(20:09):
and is that consistent or you know, around the team
as well.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
It also helps for my I did it because that
was one of my second or third management positions. I
moved up pretty quickly, and I honestly it was like
I had, you know, what they called imposter syndrome. I
didn't feel like I knew what I was doing. So
the best way for me to know what I was
doing is just constantly get feedback from people.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Right, you know, what are we doing well? Quit improve
upon and it's just stuck. It just worked.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
And to this day, if I hold a staff meeting
with my team whatever, that we always start with those
three core those three core questions. Like that said, you know,
sometimes I think you oversimplify things and people kind of
know it and they come with prepared things. But being
able to say, okay, you know, with one of the
employees or something, go here's what's working really well with you,

(20:56):
Here's what I really like, Here's where I can see
some improvements. Here's something a skill set you're totally missing.
Because I do that on the management level of individuals too,
not just in general for their job. But I give
them the feedback and then I expect them to do
it with me, right. I know, you know, I know myself.
I know that there's a lot of areas I might

(21:18):
be slightly on the spectrum. I've been accused for more
than once, so I don't do things what normal people do.
I don't like I've worked with people for two years
and not knew they had a family and kids, right,
just didn't think to ask one, you know.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
And that said, I.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Honestly see this whole spectrum of bringing on outside leaders
and to run companies and to do this as being
way more in involved than most of these new entrepreneurs
coming out of like you know, search funds and the
guys that are kind of by their first company ever imagine.

Speaker 4 (21:56):
Yeah, I mean, I I say, think you know what
you're what you're referring to is so important about uh.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
You know, I love the example that you talk about.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
You know, for years you didn't know or for a
long period time you didn't know much about your your
colleagues or your employees families. That's very uh, I would
say self aware on your behalf to to to recognize that.
That's the first step, by the way, the second the
second step is to have the courage way the second

(22:28):
the second step is to have the current law that
flaw and then step out of your third step released,
the step out of your comfort zone. It's that courage
you know, of practicing asking you know your employees, uh,
how they're doing and how are things going on at home?
And now you know that that may not go anywhere,

(22:51):
they may not want to talk about it, but at
least you're you're inquiring, and you're showing a little empathy
and by the way, that builds incredible trust, you know,
as long as it's authentic and genuine. And I worked
with a leader once. We did a three sixty and
this guy was an engineer and operators operator. He was
all about getting things done and was very very good

(23:12):
at it, by the way, and of course his three
sixty showed that he was very low in his empathy scores, and.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
So we asked him.

Speaker 4 (23:22):
I suggested, I said, hey, you know, think about the
practice makes perfect you know principle, which is the more
you do something, the more you repeat it, it ultimately
starts to happen. So he did start to walk around
and ask his team members how things were going, and
he figured out some things and found out some stories

(23:42):
about some of his employees. And you know, he's still
a little bit introverted, and he still sort of has
that engineer engineer sort of mindset. But I think, you know,
over the years, the feedback I've gotten from his colleagues
is he is starting to show up as a little
more empathetic and a little bit more interesting.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
Didn't what's going on with his people?

Speaker 1 (24:02):
I bet if you asked him, if you're still working
with him. One of the things I found for myself
and quite a few people that have the same issue
that I do as far as like where they they're
like the operator, the you know, vision. I'm more of
a problem solving vision guy. I just like I want
to solve the next problem when it comes time to
turn in the gear the same way over and again,
I don't want to do that what somebody else to do.

(24:23):
But I'm also very much so a lead follower to
get the hell out of my way type of person.
So and you know, I just want to give me
the high level stuff, the needy grittyes, for the for
the for the other people give me nothing that I
can get the details, I can solve the problem and
move on. That said, I'm also one of the reasons
I think that I push so back hard on the

(24:43):
empathy is I'm a natural impath. I feel emotions when
I walk into a room. I can feel if it's
negative and and it impacts me and it and it
slows me down in some of my areas alive, so
throughout as a kid, throughout. Now I've got to where
I push that away so much now they have to
bring it back in. I wouldn't be so if you
had a deep talk with the individual who has a
hard time with empathetic moments is because it hits you.

(25:07):
Right when when he does talk to somebody and they're
they're having problems at home, or he does talk to
somebody and they just lost a loved one or whatever,
he feels that emotion and in such a way that
it's distracting what he's trying to get done for the day.
It bugs him, right, There's nothing you can do to
solve it if you can't fix it, Like if you're
a problem solved and you can't fix the problem. Some
things are just they just have to be right, You

(25:27):
can't fix somebody just losing their spouse or their loved
one or a mom or something like. They just can't
fix that, right, And the inability to fix something makes
me want to not even talk about it, right. I
would imagine that a lot of times you'll find out
these guys who are having a hard time with empathy,
it's because they're a natural impact. They feel the emotions
of other people deeper than the normal person would, and

(25:48):
they're avoiding that that awkward coment. You know, you were
talking about avoiding tough conversations. That's just a tough conversation
for them.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (25:56):
Yeah, Look, you know, the way I would summarize this
is every leader has a blind spot. It's kind of
the physics of leadership. You know, you could be self
deluded and think you don't have blind spots, but what
but we all do.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
So the first step is can you name your blind spots?
Whatever it is?

Speaker 4 (26:15):
Are you are you less empathetic, are you command and control?
Are you a people pleaser? Whatever it is? You need
to be able to name your blind spot. And then
the second step, of course, is do you have the
courage to engage it and to show up differently as
a leader, and I find that the leaders who do that,

(26:35):
you know, heighten their self awareness and they show up
as the better versions of themselves, and their organizations tends
to thrive.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
How do you when you're doing your executive search, how
do you find people that have those charistics? Basically, how
do you identify somebody? Because everybody'll tell you, like, you know,
what's your biggest weakness? That's so common of a question
inside of an interview process. Most of the time you're just.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Going to be blowed back at you.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
But can you tell, can you tell you've been in
this long enough, can you tell when it's authentic? Can
you tell when somebody really knows themselves and really knows
their own blind spots?

Speaker 4 (27:09):
Or do you Yeah, yeah, it's a great question, and
obviously I've spent a lot of time thinking about that,
and I think the leaders who show up in an
interview or in a process that we're involved in, who
can share their story, you know, their their career story
in a compelling way, which includes, by the way, their

(27:33):
accomplishments and their strengths and their capabilities, but also authentically
identifying you know, those blind spots and how I mean
not just listing your weaknesses and moving on, but talking
about how they've been able to overcome them and how
they're continuing to battle them in a very authentic and
genuine way with examples, you know, with illustrations. Those are

(27:58):
the ones that sort of stand out for me because
they have that genuine humility, you know, and they and
again they present themselves as somebody who's not the finished
product as a leader.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
And so those are the standouts.

Speaker 4 (28:11):
Now having said that, Ron they still have to have
the competency and the expertise and the functional skills, the
self confidence and self belief a leader. They still need
to make the tough decisions, you know, as a leader
of CEO and owner you know of a business. But
but you consider all those things and then you make

(28:33):
your best judgment recommendation to you know, to our clients
about somebody's capabilities and suitability for a role.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
I have an internal belief that there are very few
CEOs that can be the CEO of a company long
term when I'm talking ten or twenty years. And let
me explain why. And then I want your feedback on this,
because I'd love to be proven wrong. I get this
when I was in the VC world where I was
working for companies that started funded by vcs. Try to

(29:04):
understand why they swap leaders out throughout the process, and
it's because it takes a different person to take a
company from an idea to market fit. It's a different
skill set than it is to go from market fit
to the first million, and from the first million to
maybe the first ten or twenty million, and then after
that it takes you know, and then you get really

(29:25):
in the systems and processes and formalizing things and you
start going from twenty million dollars to one hundred million
dollar company. Very few people can be so self aware
that they can grow through the leadership process. They be
the right person at the right time through that entire process.
A lot of companies, a lot of people are really
great of taking a company from you know, a ten

(29:48):
million dollar company to one hundred million dollar company or
ten million dollar company to go in public, but then
you know, they really don't shine in that public realm.
Have you found that to be true or have you
found there are there is a way to detect somebody
who can grow that. If you look at Oracle and
some of these other things, you can even see where
those guys backed out for a little bit, let somebody

(30:09):
else be CEO, because they at least they had the
self awareness to acknowledge Wait a second, we're not doing
the right thing here.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
We need somebody can take this knowledge.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Wait a second, Yeah, we're not doing the right right Yeah,
you know, they're the must to take it through this stage.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
No, I think you make a good point. I mean,
particularly in the tech sector. You know, the entrepreneurs and
founders of many of those companies had the self awareness
down the road to hand it off to an operator
who who had a different skill set. I think the
broader point that you're making, I think is also true,

(30:43):
and that is, you know, I think most CEOs, by
the way that I think the average CEO in a
public company day today is there for five and a
half six years. It's decreasing, by the way, because the
demands on the job and the complexity of the job
is so complicated. But there are exceptions, by the way,

(31:05):
Ron I mean, Jamie Diamond is almost twenty years in
the seat at JP Morgan. That's an exception, by the way.
Not many legendary CEOs can serve for almost twenty years
typically it's a shark a lot shorter than that.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
But yes, it does.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
Require humility and high self awareness to recognize that it's
time to maybe step aside and turn it over to
the next generation, to reinvigorate the leadership team with a new.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
Spirit from a new leader.

Speaker 4 (31:42):
And sometimes those you know, retiring CEOs go on to
be executive chairs or serve in other board roles, or
they move on to their next venture, you know, where
they can add value and create value. So it's really
a good point that you're making. I think it's healthy

(32:03):
to have turnover and succession. We're obviously every single day
involved in advising our clients on CEO succession and making
sure that that's done properly.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
It's worth studying. The people have done it for twenty years.
It's worth studying. My first question if I had him
or here on the show is how many times would
you have to reinvent yourself right through your growth cycle
of a twenty year CEO? There had to be times
where you're like, hey, I gotta do some self awareness
and reinvent myself as the guy I need that this

(32:33):
company needs in this moment.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
Yeah, and I think the ones that have a longer
tenure and have had success typically create a different structure
where their lieutenants have a lot more authority and autonomy
to run their businesses, so it's not as hierarchical, and
their leaders feel a little more empowered because they're running

(32:58):
those businesses, you know, as if they are many CEOs
within a company, and by the way, that's getting them
more prepared and ready for succession or for another CEO
role somewhere else in the industry. Yeah, I mean, it's
it's unusual, you know, to have somebody serve fifteen twenty
years of a major, you know, global public company.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
Jamie Diamond would certainly be the exception.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
I've only had a couple of roles where I had
P and L responsibility where I actually had to track
my own profit and loss for my division of the company.
It's a totally different game, right, It's totally different when
you have to go argue for a budget to buy
thirty million dollars of the hardware because your data so
there needs to be revamped. When you're also responsible for
tracking the profit and loss of your division and you

(33:43):
have to show them like, okay, this is this is
going to be return on investment. I think more managers
should be held to a P and L or to
a mini CEO model. I love the whole concept behind
the book The Great Game of Business, right which they
gamify it, and you know they teach all the employees

(34:04):
and most of all the management definitely, but most of
the employees what their day to day operations do to
the P and L, to the balance sheet, to the
you know, to the expenses and stuff, so they know
their individual impact.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
Yeah, I mean I again, I just I think it's
important for any CEO or owner to keep pushing authority
down and focusing more on on strategic issues. Letting leaders
you know, drive p and ls. As you said, it

(34:38):
gets them ready for the next assignment. It's just it's
just proper governance, if you will. The other thing I
would say, by the way, boards, you know, really have
a responsibility to pay close attention to the effectiveness of
their leader, because if they're in that role ten fifteen years,
you know, they may lose the edge in terms of

(35:00):
thinking strategically or thinking in terms of innovation. You know,
you may need to bring in somebody that can create
a spark or can be the catalyst for thinking about
you know, new innovations or new ways to grow your business.
So that's why you have to have turnover, that's why

(35:20):
you have to have succession.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
I don't I don't care what somebody offered me. I
would never be the CEO of a publicly traded company.
And the reason why is I think our system is
flawed in that if you're the CEO of a public company,
you have to constantly, constantly, constantly increase the value of
the shareholders. Let me give you an example, real quick,
a short one. If I have a company, and let's

(35:44):
just say I make chocolate, and we do really good
as a company. It's been around for thirty years, and
it cranks out steadily one hundred million dollars a profit
a year. Right, we've been doing it for twenty years.
I go public, it's no longer good. That next year
I do one hundred and the next year after that,
I do one hundred million, because when people are trading it,
they gives them no increased value in their shares. So

(36:06):
in that realm, I honestly think that not all companies
should be Probably not all companies would benefit from that
need to constantly be better this quarter than that was
last quarter. You know, there's there's this there's a stage
where something's running really well and as long as you
don't decline and you because you still have to be innovatives.

(36:28):
You can't stay at one hundred million dollars a year
in and yet out with all the competition of a
free market and not be innovating and changing things. But
to push CEOs to say you have to increase shareholder
value year over year over year put them into decisions
where a lot of times they make bad decisions because
they have to take risk to try to do something

(36:48):
that you know, yes, you know, we made a billion
dollars last year, we're gonna make a billion.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Dollars this year. Oh you're fired because you didn't increase
the value. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:58):
So yeah, yeah, it's there is a little bit of
that quarter to quarter treadmill.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
That is a bit of a problem.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
I find that the CEOs and the management teams that
overcome that think more long term. I mean, yes, they
still respond quarter to quarter, but they operate based on
a five, ten year, even longer fifteen to twenty year plan.
A lot of the clients I work with in oil
and gas, you know, the large global energy companies. You know,

(37:28):
they're making five to ten twenty year investments capital investments,
so they do think longer term, which I think is very.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
Very healthy.

Speaker 4 (37:39):
But they still have to operate obviously in the quarter
to quarter environment, but I think they do that pretty well.
But yeah, you raise a good point. I mean, you know,
the whole debate between public and private. I have a
lot of friends in the energy business and they run
private companies, and they sure are grateful and blessed to be,
you know, operate in a private structure versus a public structure, it's.

Speaker 3 (37:59):
Much more implicated.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
And then of course you have the whole issue of
dissident active as shareholders who get involved in many of
whom you know are healthy, by the way, They're healthy
in terms of accountability, but sometimes a little bit unhealthy
because they focus so much on the short term and
not on the long term.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
I want to dive back into this picking the right CEO,
because our audience are typically Mergon acquisitions guys who are
buying companies usually in that SBA realm, so there's much
moller than you're used to. So in that five million
dollar range, I'd say we got a fair fair amount
of people who are in that, you know, working through
investment bankers. They're raised on some capital and they're buying

(38:40):
a ten or twenty million dollar business. That said, how
long does it take to find a CEO? Let's just
break it down to two steps. So I don't say
think there's two steps. There's the analyzing the business to figure.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Out what the right CEO would be for a business.
And then there's the act of going out and finding
the person, like defining this and the culture and what
it takes.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
What would it what would it take to be a
great CEO at company X? It has to take some
amount of time. And then now finding the person to
put in this seat and make sure the match has
to take some amount of time. So with those two elements,
how long do you think each one of them on average.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Takes for you? You and you're very experiencing this.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
Yeah, I mean, I think what the the the issue
you're raising is is around due diligence on a deal.
Much of the due diligence as you know, as you
know and M and A is around financial due diligence.
Huge emphasis there. You know, you get a banker involved
and you assess and evaluate the you know, the value

(39:43):
of a business. You know, you look at accounting, you
look at receivables, you look at all the financial due diligence,
and that's important. I'm not I'm not de emphasizing that,
but I think the organizations that do it well focus
even more on things like culture and leadership. Whether there's

(40:04):
the leadership and the talent within. Let's say, in an
acquiring business that is sustainable, and if there isn't, how
do you compensate and what kind of leadership do you
need to bring in? So I think anybody looking at
a deal obviously has to do the financial due diligence,
but I think the leadership due diligence and the culture

(40:27):
du due diligence is important. Making sure that you know
the When these deals fail, by the way, and you
know this, it tends to be over integration. You know,
when you can't get two cultures working closely together. So
there has to be an investment post acquisition to make
sure that the teams can come together, the cultures can

(40:48):
come together, you can agree on a set of values
that are core to the business. Those are all important
elements of a successful m and a transaction.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
You know, I've boiled that down to a failure of
communication and the region, and what you said is perfectly
correct because without knowing the inner workings the culture, the environment,
even the technical language. Like every engine every industry has
its own like language, Like engineers and programmers, we all
we all have our own like terminologies and stuff for

(41:19):
certain things. You can't effectively communicate merging two groups together
if you don't understand how the other person learns, listens,
and what they respect, right, the culture right. So you
know a lot of people oversimplify it and basically say, well,
it felt they're in integration. I was like, well, you
failed because you didn't know how to communicate with the

(41:39):
other party. You bought something, you didn't truly know who
they are and how they communicate and what they value
in the world, and then you try to communicate your
values to them and they just can't see it.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
I just I think it's important for anybody thinking about
a deal to consider the cultural leadership and talent piece
is very important part.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
Once you have that down, once you understand the cultural environment,
the leadership structure that's already there, and it's time to
you know, like a lot of these guys they really
seriously know that they're not going to be the CEO
long term. They think they're going to buy the company,
run it for four or five six months, and then
they're going to find the right executive to take it

(42:23):
over so they can get back and be in the
mergion and acquisitions game of buying the next.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Add on or whatever.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
My gut feel is most of them grossly underestimate the
time it takes to both understand who would be the
right person and understand how long it takes to onboard
that person and get them up to full speed.

Speaker 4 (42:44):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just think anybody considering a
deal should carve out enough time to consider the leadership implications.
And frankly, you know, we get involved in that ron
we We sometimes are retained by clients to help them
assess the team. You know, sometimes they have to make

(43:08):
tough decisions because there's duplicate roles and responsibilities. And unfortunately,
in a in an M and A situation, you know,
you don't need two CFOs, right, you don't need two
CEOs or two chief operating officers. So you've got to
make some tough decisions, and sometimes it's helpful to bring
a third party objective, third party into do an assessment
and give your judgment. And you know, so we will

(43:31):
do that. We will help clients in large m and
a leadership due diligence.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Now you have a new book coming out. I See
the see it behind you there where? What is that about?
And what led you to write that one?

Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (43:48):
So it's really you know, I kind of the the
tagline on the book, it's Aware the Power of seeing
yourself clearly a diary of a corporate headhunter. And really
the reason I have the tagline Diary of a corporate
hand under headhunter because it's really observations, you know, over

(44:09):
thirty plus years and what I've noticed among the best
of the best leaders is they do have this unique
combination of self belief without the self absorption and it
hinges on a high level of self awareness. So the
book is written based on experience, but the book is

(44:29):
also deeply rooted in research and data. There was a
book in twenty eighteen that really resonated with me written
by Tasha Urick called Insight Why We Are Less Aware?

Speaker 3 (44:41):
Why we are less aware than we really think we are.

Speaker 4 (44:44):
And in her book, ninety five percent of respondents think
that they're self aware, but only about ten to fifteen
percent truly are. So you got about eighty percent of
people walking around who are self deluded in thinking that
they're self aware. And I thought, wow, that's such a
low number, ten to fifteen percent, And I thought, well,
what does our research say at Hydrich So we looked

(45:04):
at seventy five thousand leadership assessments. Those are three sixties
and our number on self awareness was about thirteen percent,
so very low.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
We're living in a you know.

Speaker 4 (45:16):
A deficit of self awareness today, and you know, the
next question that people might ask is why. And I
make the argument in the book it has a lot
to do with our digital culture.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
You know, we're distracted by you know.

Speaker 4 (45:31):
The swipes and the mentions and the likes and the
notifications from social media, and it's literally sucking the dopamine.
And so we're we're constantly plugged in, but we're not
plugged into ourselves. We're not taking the time to self reflect.
So that's the argument I make in the book, and

(45:51):
thank you for mentioning. It is out in a couple
of weeks. August nineteenth is the official publication date, so.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
That's going to be on Amazon for pre order now right.

Speaker 4 (46:00):
Yeah, it's on Amazon, Simon and Schuster, Barnes and Noble.
There's an audiobook version. Obviously there's the hardcover book version
as well.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
So, yeah, I told you before you turned on the mic.
I was writing the software and one of the things
it does is you enabled you to quiz yourself to
see where you think you are at in the communication skills.
I honestly, I read a lot of tests. I had
only about a dozen or two dozen now beta testers,
and I kept thinking my algorithm was wrong because they're

(46:31):
quizzing at one level and they're scoring. When they put
a real video to be analyzed, the scores are coming
way lower.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
And then the book.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
I was doing some research and that book came up,
and I was like, Okay, this is a natural human behavior.
We always think that we're better, and we even test
better than we truly perform.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
We test, We know what we're supposed to do, but
we don't do it right. Yeah, And that's what I'm
finding in the software.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
A lot of people know what they're supposed to do
to build the trust.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Real report and have effective communications, the stuff that the
software will test, but when it comes down to it,
and you analyze, you know, an hour or two hours
worth of conversations, they don't exhibit what they know.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
Yeah, I just find and I think your your research
shows this as well. We tend to have an overinflated
view of our capabilities. And you know, case and point
is around self awareness and and so that's a blind spot, right,
and so we you know, the book, by the way,
is really about blind spots. It's about being able to

(47:30):
identify them and engage them and show up better.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
That's that's really what it's about.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
It takes a lot of work to write a book.
What was the main goal for writing that? What are
you hoping to achieve by having CEOs and leaders of
the world reader book?

Speaker 3 (47:45):
You know, I just I just I've always been fascinated
with leadership.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
You know, everybody's you know, there's so many books on leadership, so, uh,
you know, the field is crowded with different theories and arguments.
And obviously I made the case twenty years ago when
I wrote trust the one thing that makes or breaks
a leader, That that's the you know, the essential quality
you have to build trust in your organization. But when

(48:13):
I thought about the awareness angle, awareness is almost like
the preventative medicine, right, because if you can enhance your awareness,
you can mitigate.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Cases of broken trust. Right.

Speaker 4 (48:29):
So so the two arguments I think are consistent. I
just think the awareness angle is maybe peeling the onion
a little bit deeper. And then the other, the timeliness
of it, I think is important because I think we're
living in an age where it's just harder to take
time to self reflect and to get away and truly

(48:51):
see yourself clearly. And the point is when you can
see yourself clearly by the way not just flaws and
blind spots, but also strengths, capability, superpower, we can then
show up better and our teams and our organizations will thrive.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
And that's really what you know.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
My objective is, Yeah, I've often considered what's going to
happen with my children. I'm a nine year old and
a fourteen year old right now, and with AI and
technology and this instant gratification world we live in where
I can order anything I want off of Amazon and
it'll be here tomorrow, like are sometimes even the same day, right,

(49:27):
And I can order anything I want to off the internet,
that software or whatever, and I don't have to wait
for as you need to me melt him anymore.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
You just download it and work.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
You know, I'll be using it within thirty seconds of
you know, deciding I wanted.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
By the way.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
Jonathan hat who wrote the book Anxious Generation, which has
been a New York Times bestseller list, I'm sure you've
heard about it.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
He just did a study.

Speaker 4 (49:47):
I think it came out yesterday, and based on his
math and his calculation, the gen Z generation will spend
twenty five years of their entire life on their phone.
I think about think about the implications of that, and
so those are realities in our world that are fighting

(50:10):
against self awareness. And so that's why I think the
book hopefully is timely, because it'll make leaders more conscious
and aware that they need to be fighting against this
culture which is battling against taking time to reflect and

(50:32):
really understeal and to understand your your your strengths and
weakness is better because when we do, and all the
research and data shows this, I mean, self awareness is
the number one tool that a leader has for transformation,
right and growth. And so that's the argument I make

(50:54):
in the book, and I hope that I hope it's timely.
I hope that readers will enjoy it and been excited
about the journey.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
Thank you for putting them the work to get it done.
Like I said, I know, that's a lot of work,
and it's a testament to what you want to accomplish
in the world that you're actually putting that out there.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
So thank you.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 4 (51:16):
Yeah. No, it's been a labor love and such. So
great to spend some time with you and have this conversation.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Ron.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Yeah, so is there anything else we want to share
before we I've asked you a bunch of questions ors.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
You know, I always ask what should I have asked?

Speaker 4 (51:30):
Like?

Speaker 2 (51:30):
What did I miss here? Right?

Speaker 3 (51:31):
So well, no, you were very kind. Thank you for
mentioning the book.

Speaker 4 (51:35):
It is available on Amazon and all retailers, and so
look forward to getting it out there.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
I like you have a little one in the background too.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah, we got some little one around. Yeah, yeah, grand kids.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
I started late. I'm fifty three. I still have a
nine year old and a fourteen year old, so no
grandkids yet. All my friends have grand kids, but I
started late due to military and other reasons. I just
didn't have kids. Earlier on in life that said, I
love the screech and so don't worry about it.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
It's really cool. Anybody else that doesn't like it, that's
on them.

Speaker 4 (52:06):
So we got We've got yeah, we've got seven and
and the eighth ones. Eighth grand child's on the way.
So it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
I bet I bet so.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
I want to end up with somebody wants to work
with you, and they you know, uh, maybe they're in
there oil and gas. I do have a lot of
people in the Texas area. I live in Texas for
a while, myself up in the Dallas area. Though, that said,
if somebody wants to work with you, what's the best
way to reach out to you, is it like LinkedIn
or you.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
Know, I have a website.

Speaker 4 (52:34):
I have a website, uh, and and and listeners are
are free to reach out. There's lots of material on
the website, by the way, that that might be helpful
to them as a leader. It's w W dot les,
SHORBA dot com, l E, S C, S O r
b A dot com. That's probably the best way to
connect and look forward to to following up.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Awesome.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
I'll make sure those links in the in the everything
are in my uh in the show notes, so that
somebody who's trybing or listen to this on a podcast,
they don't have to pull over to that. So just
know it'll be in your show notes. It'll be there'll
be a link there, UH, so you can gather that up.
Thank you for being here today. We'll wrap that up,
call it a show, hang up for a few seconds
and thank you.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
Thank you, Ron. Have a great day.