August 15, 2025 • 64 mins
“Here is the key. You can look for yourself.” [GOLD]
Imagine having the key to 221B Baker Street, and what it must feel like to open that door. And imagine being trusted to keep Holmes and Watson’s famous sitting room in good order. That rare honor belongs to Roger Johnson, BSI ("The Pall Mall Gazette") and Jean Upton, BSI ("Elsie Cubitt"), a well-known couple among the small community of married Sherlockians. Jean and Roger have preserved and maintained the sitting room at London’s Sherlock Holmes Pub for 30 years. Join us as we hear how the Northumberland Hotel evolved into the pub, and why Sir Henry Baskerville would have been an unlikely guest. You'll learn the origin of the sitting room in 1951’s Festival of Britain, how Jean and Roger saved it from neglect, and how it stands today after the pub’s recent renovation.Then we look ahead to Sherlockian gatherings for the last half of September in "The Learned Societies" segment. Madeline Quinones is back with "A Chance of Listening," and the Canonical Couplet quiz tests your Sherlock Holmes knowledge, with something from the vaults for the winner. Send your answer to comment @ ihearofsherlock .com by August 29, 2025 at 11:59 a.m. EST. All listeners are eligible to play.We have some wonderful images of the pub, the sitting room, and the exhibition that led to it, courtesy of Roger and Jean and available exclusively for our supporters. Join us on the platform of your choice (Patreon | Substack).
Download [Save As] | File size: 72.5 MB, 1:04:27
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And would you consider leaving us a ratin
Imagine having the key to 221B Baker Street, and what it must feel like to open that door. And imagine being trusted to keep Holmes and Watson’s famous sitting room in good order. That rare honor belongs to Roger Johnson, BSI ("The Pall Mall Gazette") and Jean Upton, BSI ("Elsie Cubitt"), a well-known couple among the small community of married Sherlockians. Jean and Roger have preserved and maintained the sitting room at London’s Sherlock Holmes Pub for 30 years. Join us as we hear how the Northumberland Hotel evolved into the pub, and why Sir Henry Baskerville would have been an unlikely guest. You'll learn the origin of the sitting room in 1951’s Festival of Britain, how Jean and Roger saved it from neglect, and how it stands today after the pub’s recent renovation.Then we look ahead to Sherlockian gatherings for the last half of September in "The Learned Societies" segment. Madeline Quinones is back with "A Chance of Listening," and the Canonical Couplet quiz tests your Sherlock Holmes knowledge, with something from the vaults for the winner. Send your answer to comment @ ihearofsherlock .com by August 29, 2025 at 11:59 a.m. EST. All listeners are eligible to play.We have some wonderful images of the pub, the sitting room, and the exhibition that led to it, courtesy of Roger and Jean and available exclusively for our supporters. Join us on the platform of your choice (Patreon | Substack).
Download [Save As] | File size: 72.5 MB, 1:04:27
Listen to I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere anywhere you get podcasts
Leave I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify; listen to us wherever you listen to podcasts.
Sponsors
- MX Publishing has a number of new Sherlock Holmes books out by various authors. You'll want to check out the breadth of their offerings by visiting the site to learn more.
Would you care to advertise with us? You can find more information here. Let's chat!
Links
- The Sherlock Holmes Pub (Greene King)
- The Mystery of 221B Baker Street (Smithsonian)
- The Sherlock Holmes Society of London
- Other links:
- A Chance of Listening: The Coffee Clatch Crew
- The Learned Societies: Sherlockian Calendar
- Find all of our relevant links and social accounts at linktr.ee/ihearofsherlock.
Goodpods Top 100 Mystery Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Support for I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere comes from MX Publishing,
with the largest catalog of new Sherlock Holmes books in
the world. New novels, biographies, graphic novels, and short story
collections about Sherlock Holmes find them at MS publishing dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And listeners like you who support us on Patreon or
substack sign up for exclusive benefits at Patreon dot com,
slash I Hear of Sherlock or I Hear of Sherlock
dot Substack dot com.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere, Episode three hundred and sixteen,
The Sherlock Holmes pub.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I head of shelocke it very well, since you became
a strumming man.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
In a world where it's always eighteen ninety five. It's
I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere, a podcast for devotees of
mister Sherlock Holmes, the world's first unofficial concerting detective.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I've Heard of you before, Holmes, The Medland Holmes, The
Busybody Homes, the stockland Yard, Jacket Office.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
The Game's afoot As we interview authors, editors, creators, and
other prominent Sherlockians on various aspects of the great detective
in popular culture.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
As we go to press, sensational developments have been reported.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
So join your hosts Scott Monty and Bert Walder as
they talk about what's new in the world of Sherlock Holmes.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
A time.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I'm Mill Curtis. This is I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere.
Speaker 6 (01:48):
Now Here are your hosts Scott Marty and Bert Walder.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Oh, thank you very much, mister Bill Curtis, and welcome
everyone to I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere, the first podcast
for Sherlock Holmes Devots where it's always eighteen ninety five.
I'm Scott Monty, I'm Burt Wilder and Bert Are you
about ready to head off to the pub?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Bill Curtis is there already drawing his initials again and
again on a beer coaster.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Wow, that's lovely. But you know, at this time of
the day, it's a little early to be going to
the pub, don't you think? Tell Bill that it's the
pub's fault for serving breakfast sandwiches.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yes, there you go.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
No, it's always a great time to go to the
Sherlock Holmes Pub, located in the heart of London. It's
been around for well for longer than this show, that's
for sure. It is something that is known as well
a great place for the locals, it's also a great
place for tourists for the visiting Sherlockians. It has become
(02:59):
one of the destinations that you must go to for
a variety of reasons. But we, in our grand luck
with this show, happen to have a couple of individuals
who are responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of the
two to twenty one b Baker Street sitting Room inside
(03:21):
the Sherlock Holmes Pub, Roger Johnson and Gene Upton. They're
going to share a little bit about their background history
and their experience working with the Sherlock Holmes in an
interview shortly, but I've got a number of other features
ahead intoday's show as well. You're going to hear about
Sherlockian Society activities in the Learned Society's segment of the show.
(03:45):
Madeline Kinnonez is back with another installment in a Chance
of Listening per review of various Sherlockian podcasts from across
the space, and of course stay tuned. You won't want
to miss the canonical couplet Sherlock Holmes Quiz where we
give you two lines of poetry and ask you to
(04:07):
identify which of the sixty stories it came from. We
will be announcing the winner of the last episodes couplet
because they will be getting the Lego Sherlock Holmes Booknookah,
I want to stay tuned for that. Lots of that ahead,
(04:28):
and don't forget. You can support the show by becoming
a Patreon patron at Patreon dot com, slash i Hear
of Sherlock, or a supporter on substack at i Hear
of Sherlock dot substack dot com. We've got links to
both of these methods of supporting us in the show notes,
so you might want to check that out, but it
(04:50):
gets you additional content. We actually have some visuals that
Roger has shared with us from the Sherlock Holmes pub
that will be available only to our page supporters, so
if you'd like to have a glance at those, if
you'd like to listen to the show ad free, if
you would like to get bonus content from time to time,
(05:10):
that's how you do it, so we would be delighted
to get your support either way, and don't forget. Leave
us a comment, leave us a rating or a review,
correspond with us at comment that I hear of Sherlock
dot com. We love hearing from you, and we love
you letting other people know that you love the show
as well. So thanks in advance. Well you know that
(05:39):
stately tune. That's right. It is time for the learned Societies,
where we tell you about Sherlockian Society activities. Taken from
the Sherlockian Calendar at Sherlockianclendar dot com that is run
by Ron Fish, member of the Baker Street the Regulars.
(06:00):
If you have an event that you would like to
see added to the sherlock In Calendar, just get in
touch with Ron. His email address is right at the
top of the page there. I'm sure he would be
delighted to add you to the calendar. So, last time
we were here, Bert, I think we left off halfway
through the month of September. So we're picking up on
(06:21):
September sixteenth. Now, yes, Cent, where does that land us?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Terrified? I'm terrified because on September sixteen, the Sherlock Holmes
Society of the Cape Fear will be holding a virtual
meeting where people will be shivering all on their phones
and computers and Tom Campbell is the contact for that,
and you can find out more at Sherlock Holmes Soociety
(06:47):
dot com.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
That's a great url. No mention as to whether the
meetings culminate on a houseboat going down the river, do they?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
No?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Good? Well? On no not. November September twentieth, the Norwegian
Explorers have a virtual meeting. It's their study group. Tom
Gottwalt is the contact there. You can find out more
at Norwegian Explorers dot org.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And you can have lunch on September twentieth in Nashville,
Tennessee with the Nashville Scholars of the Three Pipe Problem.
Jeff Stewart is the contact and their website is Nashville
Scholars dot com.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And if you can't be in Nashville for lunch on
the twentieth, well you can be in Bethesda, Maryland on
the twentieth. The Red Circle of Washington, DC is holding
their lunch meeting. Peter Blow of course runs that August
group there at Red Circle DC dot org.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And and boy, if you're weary on the twentieth of
September all of these events, you can relax in Cincinnati
at the Tankerville Club. Their animated Film Festival is happening
on September twenty in Cincinnati and Dan Andreaco is your
contact there.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
On the next day, September twenty first, the Sound of
the Baskervilles is hosting a virtual meeting. David Hogan is
your contact at Soundothebaskervilles dot com.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And then off to Madison, Wisconsin on September twenty first
for the Notorious Canary Trainers an in person meeting. Glenn
Link is your contact there.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And also final event on the twenty first. If you
happen to be in the northeast, make your way up
to Keene, New Hampshire for the Monadnock Sherlockians. Our friend
Anna Barons runs that group or contact information is there,
and I might add late September is a delightful time
to be heading to northern New England because the colors
(08:53):
will already be starting to peak.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And twenty fourth of September Monroe Township, New Jersey, Paul
Hartnets Middlesex Constabulary has their.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Regular meeting and if you would like to be part
of the Afghanistan Perceivers virtual meeting, they are going to
be meeting on September twenty fifth, and they are Tulsa
Dash Sherlock dot org. Brian Wilson is the contact there.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Twenty sixth of September two in Baltimore, the Six Napoleons
is having their dinner meeting. And this is actually part
of a sequence of events over the next day or
so that tickle around like Domino's. So in a minute
we'll be telling you more about what happens the next day.
But Baltimore, Maryland, Greg Ruby, and you can find out
(09:51):
the details of the Six Napoleon's dinner meeting at Sherlock
Baltimore dot com.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Also on the twenty sixth, if you are in Saint Charles,
Missouri or thereabouts, the Harpooners of the Cunicorn are hosting
a meeting. Jonathan Basford is your contact there at Harpooners
dot WordPress dot com.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
And September twenty seventh, Beautiful Royal Oak, Michigan, Regina Stinson
is holding a field trip for the Ribston Pippins, and
you can find their website at Ribston Hyphen Pippins dot com.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
All right, and as you promised, back in Baltimore the
next day, on September twenty seventh, there is going to
be a lunch meeting of the Sherlockians of Baltimore, following
that Six Napoleons meeting the night before Greg Ruby and
Sherlock Baltimore dot com or where you can find out
more information.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
And last in September, on the twenty seventh in Chicago, Illinois,
Tourists International is going to be meeting, and that your
contact there is Jonathan Schimburg and their website is Tourist International.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And there may be even a speaker you've heard of
going to that particular meeting. I will be there talking
about the past, present and future of Sherlock Holmes. I
can't wait to hear what I'm going to say.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Oh me neither.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Wow, It's all in the future.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Friends.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Well, if you would like to add your group to
this list or simply browse through all the offerings, just
go to Sherlockianclendar dot com and inform the world, share
the wealth with all of these wonderful events that are
going on all around North America. Our friends at MX
(11:49):
Publishing are always coming out with new books, and of
course we have talked your ear off all about the
MX Book of New Sherlock Holmes Stories and its final volumes.
But what we'd like to talk to you about.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
Now.
Speaker 7 (12:02):
Are four new books.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
In twenty twenty five. There Sherlock Holmes and The Adventure
of the Black Pharaoh by J. M. Reinbold, Sherlock Holmes
Takes the Case Eight Tales of Mystery and Intrigue by
David McGregor, to twenty one b On Her Majesty's Secret
Service by Mark d Ellis and The Hidden Enquiries of
(12:27):
Sherlock Holmes by Arthur Hall. All four of these books
are exciting adventures in the pastiche style, taking you through
various locations and various time settings in the Sherlockian universe.
Pick any one of them, pick all four, It doesn't matter.
(12:48):
You're going to have a good time as you read
some of these new books that are available from MX Publishing,
and just as a reminder, MX offers audible books as
well as paperback and hard bat and ebooks, so pick
your format and get these books in whichever you choose.
Speaker 7 (13:08):
All available at MX publishing dot com.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Gene Upton was born and brought up in Wincoede, Pennsylvania,
an area where Christopher Morley lived when he worked in Philadelphia.
She was involved with a number of Sherlock in groups
on the East Coast, and then the nineteen eighties joined
the Sherlock Holmes Society of London. She attended her first
meeting with the London Society in nineteen eighty seven for
a trip to Granada Studios when the Jeremy Brett series
(13:46):
was being filmed. In nineteen eighty nine she was invested
in the Adventuresses of Sherlock Holmes as Missus Farintosh, and
in two thousand she received her BSI investiture of Elsie Cubit.
Nine ninety two she married Roger Johnson and became a
permanent resident in the UK. Gene and Roger co wrote
(14:06):
The Sherlock Holmes Miscellany, published by The History Press in
twenty twelve. Roger Johnson was born and still lives in Chelmsford, Essex.
He's been a member of the Sherlock Holmes Society of
London since nineteen sixty eight. In nineteen eighty two he
started the society's newsletter, The District Messenger, which Gene then
(14:27):
took over editing from twenty seventeen until twenty twenty three.
In two thousand and seven, Roger took on the editorship
of the Sherlock Holmes Journal and recently passed the reins
over to the capable hands of Mark Jones. Through his
editorial connections, He's in touch with Sherlock Holmes groups throughout
the world, and he holds honorary memberships in societies in Australia, Canada, France,
(14:52):
the USA and the UK. He received hiss BSI investiture
in nineteen ninety one as the pal Meal Gazette, and
in two thousand and eight was awarded as ash investiture
of Shinwell Johnson. For over thirty years, Gene and Roger
have both contributed to or appeared in numerous television documentaries
related to Sherlock Holmes and Arthur Conan Doyle. Their most
(15:15):
recent appearance was on the popular TV series The Yorkshire
Auction House, in an episode entitled Elementary. My dear Angus,
Roger and Gene, welcome to I hear of Sherlock everywhere.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Now I have to say the two of you are
fixtures in the Holmes end environment.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Ornaments, I would say ornaments, ornament fixtures. Well, you know
fixtures or things like faucets, you know they're ornamental fixtures.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
How's that described? Me as an ornament.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
It's hard to imagine the Sherlockian world without you both.
You have contributed so much, as we just heard in
the introduction there. But we want to get back to
the beginnings with you in this conversation. So why don't
we start where we start with all of our guests
and ask you where you first met Sherlock Holmes. Gene,
you want to take that first?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Oh gosh, Well, in my case, growing up in the
United States from a very early age, I had already
encountered Sherlock homes through the Basil Rathbone films being shown
on television, and I think there were some cartoons, probably
Warner Brothers cartoons that had a Sherlock comes figure in them,
(16:39):
so I was already familiar with the character and the concept.
And then when I was about six years old, I
am a very quick sequence went through all the major
childhood illnesses and had to be confined to my bedroom
for quite a long time. So I read through all
(17:00):
the children's books that I had and then started on
the others that I hadn't, and one of them was
The Adventures and Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes. And it says
rather a lot about Conan Doyle's writing that, despite the
fact that this was not an illustrated book and I
(17:20):
was only six years old, remember, I carried on and
read through every single story, So that was really my
first introduction to the character proper. As Conan Doyle wrote.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It, impressive, Wow, and what about you, Roger Well.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
I was aware of Sherlock Holmes as a concept from
early on, mainly I guess from cartoons, from caricatures, humorous
use of the character. Movies we didn't get a lot
(18:07):
that were reckoned to be appropriate for youngsters, but we
had the radio series Yes with Carlton Hobbs and Norman Shelley,
which I absolutely loved. But I didn't start reading the books,
(18:27):
I think till I was about ten or eleven. Might
have been a little earlier because our public libraries classed
them as adult reading, and I have had to be
I don't know, ten or eleven to join the adult
(18:48):
section of the public library. But once I got stuck in,
I really loved it all. Just trying to think, I
honestly not remember, because I had known of Sherlock Holmes
in some detail for well, it seems, you know, since
(19:10):
I was in the Cradle, which really is quite true.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Well, of course your mother was a teacher, so you
might have heard of Sherlock comes through her.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Oh, very likely that you know from I was a
reader from the age of what three? Gina and I
both were early readers.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Yeah, I was reading fluently by the age of four.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, wow wow.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
But yeah, Sherlock Holmes. Yes, it was I guess the
radio series that was the one of the great prompts. Yeah.
When I when I was able to borrow the books
from the public library, I just reveled in them.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
That's wonderful. And it's interesting that you both describe a
world of Sherlock Holmes in the entertainment industry, whether it's films, cartoons, etc.
And then radio. Certainly, so much of our visual and
audio imagination is already colored by the time that we
(20:30):
get to the books. But the books themselves open up
a whole new universe. And well, as you both know,
it opens us up to a universe of other people
who are interested in Sherlock Holmes. Absolutely, and so that's
why I think we want to get this for the record,
because the two of you are one of the most
(20:52):
long standing Sherlockian couples out there. How did the two
of you first meet and discuss over your mutual love
of Sherlock Holmes Well.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
The District Messenger, which I started a long time ago.
Jane was an early subscriber, so we corresponded by well
by post initially, and but we sort of knew each
(21:31):
other long before we met. The first event at which
we were both present was the visit to Grenada Studios.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I think, Yes, we appear in photographs together, but we
didn't meet on that occasion.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
We were separated by Tony Howett. Yes, and if you
knew Tony, you was.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
A considerable roadloge.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Yes, it was such a line lovely man. Yeah. So yeah,
that was the first event that we both attended and
we didn't actually meet. I think it till when the
Society went to Cambridge.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yes, but I had started coming over to the UK.
I guess it was nineteen eighty seven. Yeah, the trip
to Granada Studios was my first time, and so I
sort of started planning my holiday each year around the
activities of the Society because we usually will have a
(22:35):
long weekend away somewhere. So that was my excuse to
come over to England do the thing with the society
and then I'd have the remainder of the week or
so to myself. And as Rogers says, we finally met
face to face in Cambridge.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Yeah, and we got on well together, I think, didn't we.
And when did I come over?
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Well, you came over once we were engaged. You came
over for Christmas nineteen ninety one. Yeah, to meet my family.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
That's right, Yeah, that we had. Obviously we'd met two
or three times.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Oh yeah, over here, over here.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Yes, yeah, meeting meeting in the States, and yes, as
you say, with your family. And among the rather astonishing
features of that event was receiving my investiture into the BSI.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yeah, the investiture was given to Roger at my house,
which was a house where Christopher Morley had lived. So,
as far as I know, Roger's the only person who's
had his investiture in a place where Christopher Morley had been.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Yeah, bizarre. And yeah, Tom Sticks.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Tom Sticks was unwell because he had just had surgery.
So it was Bob Tomalin who invested you. And a
day or two later we went to visit the Sticks.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Yeah, God was a delight.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
So Jeane, how did you come to be living in
the house where Christopher Morley had lived.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
It was a house that my parents purchased early in
the nineteen fifties. Christopher Morley lived in Wincot, Pennsylvania when
he was working in Philadelphia because there were good train connections.
So the house where I grew up he rented while
(25:01):
he was having a house built for himself and his
family just a couple of blocks away.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Wow, ghosts, ghosts. Oh yeah, and Jeane, what about you?
By the time you went to the Grenada Studios visit
with the Sherlock Home Society of London, which you say
is your first trip to the UK at that point,
were you involved with any other Sherlock activities in the States?
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Had you met other Sherlocke There were a couple of
groups at the time in Philadelphia. There was the Clients
of Sherlock Holmes and I'm desperately trying to remember the
name of the other one with Copper Beaches quite a while.
I'm sorry, I can't remember the name of the other, but.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's probably the one that Bob Kats and Michael founded.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Oh no, there was another one as well. Victoria was
the name of the woman who was running it. Yeah,
for the life of me. I can't remember it, okay,
but Herman Berman was involved with that one. Yeah, it's
(26:22):
so long ago now, I just can't recall it. But
I was also involved with the Men on the Tour
Tyke Nvers group. Yeah, and I'm trying. There are a
couple more in New Jersey. So basically anything that was
with an easy driving distance I would go to.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, I'm surprised we didn't run across each other at
the Men on the Tour, Geene, that was my first group.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Possibly we did meet.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
We may have, but we just didn't know it. It
was like Roger meeting you know, Tony wasn't there. Keepest
part it was Tyke.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Right, Well, I went to the meetings that you let
Cass Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Small world. Well, so I'm going to ask the obvious
question as we get ready to talk about the Sherlock
Holmes pub here. But how is it that we didn't
find Roger relocating to the States and we instead found
Gene going to England.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Well, my family originally came from over here, and in fact,
one branch of the family is from a village probably
about thirty miles from here, and another branch of my
family went to the United States in sixteen thirty on
(27:46):
a ship that was built about fifteen miles from where
we are.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, that's more of it, so it all comes home.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yes, they were the founders of the ma Chusetts Bay Colony.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Well, Geene, we have some relatives together on that too.
I'm part of the Alden branch. So ah for anyone
who's into history and genealogy. But let's let's talk about
the history of the Sherlock Holmes Pub here. I know
that's what everyone's been waiting for. I remember on my
(28:26):
first visit to London to twenty one b Baker Street,
wasn't the tourist trap that it is now, although it
obviously still existed, But the Sherlock Holmes Pub was one
of the places that an interested Sherlockian from America had
(28:50):
to visit. So how did the Sherlock Holmes Pub come
to be in the first place, and what was it
even before it was the Sherlock Holmes.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Well, before it was the Sherlock Holmes, it was originally
called the Northumberland Hotel, and you'll recognize that name from
the Hound of the Baskervilles. But although people assume that
that is the hotel that Sir Henry Baskerville stayed at.
(29:23):
It was a commercial hotel for traveling salesman, that.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Sort of thing, the sort where you not only shared
a room, you shared the bed.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
That when Northumberland Avenue was built in eighteen eighty three,
three luxury hotels were built along there, the Victoria, the
Metropole and the Grand. And while that building was going on,
(30:02):
the Northumberland Hotel changed its name to the Northumberland Arms.
So when Henry Baskerville came he would not have stayed
at the Northumberland Hotel because there was no Northumberland Hotel
(30:23):
at that time. And I'm damn sure that he would
not have stayed at the Northumberland Arms. He would have
stayed at one of the one of the Yes, it
was in nineteen fifty seven that the owners of the
pub as Whitbread, they were leaders in what we now
(30:50):
know as theme pubs. They used to call them feature inns,
and they decided that London needed a Sherlock Home Hotel
or Sherlock Holmes Pub rather, and they chose this one.
And as there were a lot of the items that
(31:11):
had been exhibited in the Festival of Britain Sherlock Holmes
Exhibition that were basically not reclaimed. They made a bit
for them and they got material from other interested parties
(31:35):
and so the Northumberland Arms became the Sherlock Holmes. There
were still material in there, especially in the sitting room
that had been part of the exhibition.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Region to the fifty one accidents.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
Yeah, so that's the reason. And it's one of the
few of the theme pubs I think that that have
maintained its character since the early fifties or the mid fifties.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
And of all the pubs, it's the only one that
has a pictorial sign because they know the image of
Sherlock Holmes is that important.
Speaker 6 (32:22):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
So outside there's hanging a profile. It looks it almost
looks like the Frank Wiles portrait from.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Well a new one now. Oh yeah, I think it's
God what's his name?
Speaker 4 (32:40):
No, I can't remember. Sorry, we're both getting old.
Speaker 5 (32:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Sorry, it's the fourth design I think for the pub
sign over the decades.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, certainly since we've been associated.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So for those who haven't visited the Sherlock Holmes Pub,
it's interesting because on the ground floor you go in
and it's pretty much standard pub layout, design, comforts, etc.
But on the walls, of course, there are portraits and posters,
(33:18):
and I remember there being the mounted head of the
Hound of the Baskervilles under glass. There so a lot
of choch keys and thematic kind of touches there to
make you feel as if well you are certainly in
the Sherlock Holmes Pub. But the real magic occurs when
(33:39):
you ascend to the first floor, and that's where the
restaurant seating is. But it's not just the restaurant. There
is a recreation of the sitting room at two twenty
one B Baker Street, and this is where all of
those are. Most of those artifacts that you talked about
from the nineteen fifty one Festival of Britain reside in
(34:04):
this recreation. And why this is amazing, We happened to
know a couple that are the caretakers of that room.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Roger and Jean.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
You are responsible for the upkeep and good standing of
that sitting room. That's amazing. How did that happen?
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Yeah, when I first moved over here, when we were
going to get married, I had to establish residents before
we were married, and then after we were married. I
had to wait until I could get my passport stamp
so that I could get a job, so I had
a lot of spare time on my hands while Roger
(34:49):
was at work during the day. And I guess it
was late February. I had gone up to London and
had lunch at the pub and I had a look
in the room and I thought, oh, that's looking rather unloved.
And if you can visualize around the mantlepiece, there's a
(35:12):
needle point embroidery that stretches around it and one end
was hanging in shreds oh no, and the room just
looked tired. So being a very busy pub, I know
it would be ridiculous to try to speak to the
managers then and there. So I wrote them a letter
(35:33):
because this was the days before email, and we arranged
to meet and they were a little bit tentative at
first because they've been getting a lot of hassle from
the Sherlock Holmes Museum, and I think they just wanted
to be sure I wasn't a mole on their behalf. Yeah,
But once I explain the Sherlock Holmes Society's background with
(35:58):
the pub and that I had free time to give
them a hand. They were well on board. They were
so happy because it's a really busy pub and they
just couldn't spare the times themselves to go in and
try to sort out the room because what had happened
was immediately above that room there was either a dishwasher
(36:21):
or a washing machine that had lenked okay right down
the ceiling and basically destroyed the room. Everything was covered
in dirty plastery water. The papers all had to be
taken away and replaced. There was a map from the
(36:44):
Sign of four which Colin Prestige had drawn, and if
you tried to pick it up, it just crumbled, so
I had to redraw that. But in those days the
pubs had different opening hours. They had to close during
the afternoon, so I would go in wait for the
pub to close. I think it was around three o'clock,
(37:07):
and then I would dive into the room and have
about two and a half hours in which to try
to get the place looking reasonably presentable. And my god,
it was just so filthy I can't even begin to describe.
But fortunately I think it was later that year or
(37:29):
earlier the next year the pub was going to be
closing for renovations and they were going to be making
structural changes and redecoration and everything, so the room had
to be packed up and taken away. So I single
handedly packed up everything that you see in that room.
(37:52):
And I had to do it because time is of
the essence. While people were dining, people looking through the
window at me as I was wrestling with the bearskin
rug trying to get it into a bin bag.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Missus Hudson's at it again.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
So, Jane, what year was this that you just for
our listeners? You know, so that.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
It was nineteen ninety two when I first made the
connection with the pub, and it's just carried on from
there through different owners, different managers, different renovations. I've packed
up that room I think three times now.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So that first period between the end of the Festival
of Britain and you're getting connected to it and looking
at what had happened in the room is a little
more than thirty years then.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, wow, I imagine. You know, over the years there
would be members of staff who would go in there
and maybe do a little bit of dusting, but I
think I was the first to give it a really
proper clean up, because it really was quite neglected, and
(39:13):
you consider that some of the items in there were
actually Victorian, so they were already one hundred years old
and very fragile.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
What did you find when you first went into the
room that struck you as unusual or wonderful or I
mean beyond the things that crumbled when you touch them,
you know, and all the things that had been so damaged,
did you find any mementos that you know, you really
spoke to you?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Well, there were so many little objects in there, and
it was very strange to be handling them. Because when
I was a very small child, I became aware of
the pub through magazines. One of my mother's friends subscribed
to foreign magazines, and I think we must have had
picture post or something, so I had already seen pictures
(40:08):
of it, and as a child, I thought, gosh, it
would be wonderful to go see that. And then when
I started visiting the pub, I used to think, wouldn't
it be great to get in that room? So walking
in there, all of a sudden I got my wish
and that was quite special. I know that members of
(40:28):
staff don't like going in there because basically, once you
shut that door, you're in a soundproof room. There's very
thick plate glass and there's no air circulation, so it's hot,
it's dusty and very dry. Whenever I used to work
(40:52):
in there for anything more than twenty minutes, I would
take in two glasses of water with me, because you
really needed it.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
It's in a big display case.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
I guess, well, it is. It is. It's quite eerie
if you're on your own.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Do you do you find that you look forward to
those visits? Do you do you dread them? Is it
more work than play at this point? How do you
feel about it?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Initially? I quite enjoyed the challenge because there were instances
when they were doing the renovations that I was able
to take items home and work on them. Like we've
talked about the embroidered surround on the mantelpiece. I tried
to restore that, knowing the way that museums would go
(41:48):
about it, and washed it in my bathtub by hand.
And the first wash, the water was so dark you
probably could have drawn it up into a pen and
written it it was disgusting. But washed it thoroughly until
(42:09):
the water ran clear. Lea photographs of it hanging out
on her washing line, but that required a lot of restoration,
partly because they had a real problem with moths in there,
so I had to reconstruct quite a lot of it
and Sherlock Holmes's coat and deerstock or the moths, well,
(42:30):
there was a hole in the coat that I could
have put my head through. And we've had to replace
the dressing gowns several times because the dressing gowns were wool.
So I was always keeping an eye out in charity
shops to get something appropriate for the period. And I
think we've replaced it three times now. But they've now
(42:53):
sorted out the moth problem. They also had trouble with
mice in there. I was always climbing dead and I
that was a joy.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Well sure they were dead, it was too dry.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
So so Gene, tell us a little bit about this
most recent renovation. Now, over the years, you know, Whitbread
is no longer connected to the to the pub Thin
Green King now because how these how these things are
managed in the UK and owned and operated. So what
was this most recent renovation.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Well, they basically redecorated the place and they've done it
really well. I have to say, whoever they had as
their designer really did their homework because we're still finding
new things, all sorts of little easter eggs almost you'd
call them, like there's a little picture of the goose
(43:53):
from the blue carbuncle, and yeah, it's just fun to
keep looking for things. They took good care of the
older stuff, but they were very happy just to leave
the room to us to cope with. And it's rather
good that they did that because there have been managers
(44:15):
in the past under different ownership, I will add, who
used to rather indiscriminately allow people into the room to
take photographs and a lot of things were small enough
to fit into pocket, yes, old boy. And there was
one particular manager I think he was Australian that the
(44:35):
other staff absolutely despised for good reason, and we heard
from former members of staff that he was selling stuff.
And one of the items that disappeared, rather unfortunately was
a silver hypodermic case which had Conandal's signature reproduced in
(44:55):
engraving on it. Now it hadn't belonged to Conandor. I
think this was something that someone had made up, but
it was still quite irritating that that, of all things,
had to disappear. But the one item that really foxed
us was when we walked in one day and the
boxing gloves were gone. How the hell do you sneak
(45:20):
a pair of boxing clubs?
Speaker 4 (45:22):
I don't know, but it took me about a year
to find an appropriate pair to replace it. Oh and
they look great, but they're made for small hands. But
you wouldn't know that. Well you see them, they are
the real thing.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah. Well that that brings someone in the question about
how frequently new items get added to the collection there
or replacement items? Shall we say? I mean obviously we're
not looking at newly manufactured things, although replicas I would
imagine are partially the case. And how do you go
(46:03):
about searching for those kinds of replacements?
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Well, shure eyes out in secondhand shops charity shops. But
there are people who know that we look after the
room and they'll often give us things like period magazines.
Who was it who did the box from the Diagom?
Was it Denny Dowry who gave us that?
Speaker 4 (46:28):
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Yeah. So a lot of people will contribute items that
will put in there, and if it's possible and they're
visiting in London, we allow them to place the item
in the room self that's nice.
Speaker 8 (46:43):
It's always a pleasure to take really interested people into
the room and keep an eye on them.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
That's always necessary obviously.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, I always have to warn them to watch out
for the bearskin rugeah, because every damn time I go
in there, and it doesn't matter the hundreds of times
I've been in there, I always trip over it. I know.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Yees.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Unfortunately, that's got to be marvelous because I mean, you
both remember the first time that you entered that room
and the feeling that you had, and now you have
the opportunity to bring that same kind of wonder and
joy to other people for the first time.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
It's a real privilege. Yeah, we're the only people who
have had a key to that roompart.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
From the manager, for more than thirty years now.
Speaker 4 (47:49):
Yeah, and I don't think any manager has had a key.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
For that long.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
Yeah, stay that.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
Yes, for what's the name your husband? Yes, she carried on.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
She carried on for quite a whime.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
So I mean there must be a time in the
future at some point when the two of you will
need to hang up your keys. Are you taking on
apprentices or how does this process work?
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Well, we're hoping to find someone who can take it on,
preferably someone in or near London. So we're just keeping
our ears to the ground at the moment.
Speaker 4 (48:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Well, if folks would like to make a bid to
I hear of Sherlock everywhere, we will.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Now.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
But no, this is this is a valid concern that
you know, if we have absolutely a listener, a Sherlockian
home useium, whatever you happen to call yourselves, that is
local to London, and that hears this and would like
to get in touch with Roger and Jane, please get
in touch with us and we will make the connection
because this is a heritage that is important to pass on.
(49:11):
It's part of history, it's part of culture. It's become
woven into the very fabric of London, just as Holmes
himself did well.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
As far as we're aware, apart from Festival Hall whoops,
oh sorry, we nearly lost you for a moment. Okay,
apart from Festival Hall on the South Bank, I believe
this is the only bit of the exhibition from nineteen
(49:43):
fifty one the people can still go and see. Yeah,
so historically it is significant and I have to say
full marks to Green King because they really understand the
significance of this. Now, there are a lot of other
companies that probably would have just stripped out the room
(50:05):
because they could probably fit another six tables in there
and make what twenty four more covers for a meal.
So yeah, good on them for keeping it.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Well, let's hope they do for many many years to come.
Before we let you go, Roger and Gene, I do
have to point out one thing near and dear to
my heart and Jean you you probably are aware of
this because you painted a portrait of Arthur Conan Doyle
that for a long time hung on the far wall
(50:37):
of I think it was over the fireplace, if I'm
not missing. Yeah, I had my portrait on the wall
opposite that for a few years. Remember, I posed as
a young Sherlock Holmes when he first came down to
London and had his rooms at Montague Street. David Whole
arranged that entire operation there, and it was probably one
(51:00):
of the greatest honors of my Sherlockian career.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
Yes, I remember you were holding a test to something
I think it was. Yes, I remember that well.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Both pictures are still in the pub, although Dean's portrait
has moved downstairs, now downstairs.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
Lovely, that's good, it gets more prominent viewing. Well, Roger
and Jean. Any other words before we let you on your.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Way, Well, can you think of anything?
Speaker 4 (51:36):
We had hoped to visit the pub last Saturday for
any updating necessary, but when we got to London we
found it had been taken.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
Over by anti war protests. Yes, anywhere near the pub.
Speaker 4 (51:59):
Oh boy, we are intending to go next wonderful.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Well, please give it our regards, yes, of course. Well.
Roger Johnson, gene Upton, thank you so much for sharing
your stories with us here on I hear of Sherlock everywhere.
Speaker 4 (52:17):
Well, Scott monte Bert Wilder, thank you very much indeed.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
And we tried to keep it clean.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Well done, well done. You know a lot of our
discussions around the world of Sherlock Holmes and all of
(52:47):
us you know, who are so interested in keeping green
the memory of the master, you know, tend to involve
in one way or another how much of a labor
of love this is. And talking about a labor of love,
you know, is a great summation of what Roger and
Jane have done. It's just extraordinary. For thirty years, just
(53:11):
out of a sense of commitment and honoring the recreation
of the sitting room and the presentation and popularity of
Sherlock Holmes and keeping that fresh and green. It's just
been an extraordinary effort, and I'm so pleased we had
the opportunity to talk with them and to you know,
point a small little spotlight on what they've done here,
(53:34):
which is really just remarkable, particularly when you think of
the thousands of people who have been through the pub
since it opened I think in nineteen fifty seven and
scene that display. It's just remarkable, it really is.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
And all it takes is someone with a passion, someone
who kind of looks at something and says, hey, why
isn't someone doing something about that, and who says, well,
why can't that someone be me? You know, it could
happen in any walk of life with really anything that
(54:12):
you happen to be interested in. All you have to
do is step forward and raise a hand, and more
often than not, you'll find that the people that you
interact with in those situations will say, yeah, sure, we
love it, go for it. And I can't wait to
see how this grand tradition gets passed on to the
(54:32):
next interested Sherlockian. Well, she had a brief hiatus, but
God bless Madeline Kenyonez, she is back and ready for more.
With this installment, it's a chance of listening with your correspondent,
Madeline Kinyonez.
Speaker 5 (54:54):
Hello everyone, I'm Madeline Kenyonis and today I'm here to
talk about podcast that slip past my notice. That's been
the thing about this segment. I think that I've found
every Sherlockian podcast out there, and then oops, there's one
from twenty seventeen that I hadn't heard of before. The
(55:15):
Coffee Clatch Crew podcast is a show run by a
couple Jason Pistorino and Christina Lomangino. Over the years, they've
covered a lot of TV shows, and that includes BBC Sherlock.
Although it only includes the last season of Sherlock. Still,
that makes it the fourth podcast I've found that discusses
(55:37):
the show episode by episode. Sixth actually if you include
the Baker Street Babes, which did do some episode discussions,
and the three Patch podcast. And I appreciate that. I
think it's easy to forget now sometimes when we're closing
in on a decade out from the last episode. But
Sherlock really was a global phenomenon alongside Game of Thrones.
(56:01):
It was one of the last shows on TV to
be so widely watched before streaming services got to be
as huge as they are now. And love it or
hate it, that is really impressive for Sherlock Holmes adaptation.
So let's talk about highlights. The first episode is actually
a recap of the entire show prior to the final season,
(56:24):
and that's a fun listen. Neither Jason nor Christina are Sherlockians,
but they did some dives to look into Easter eggs
and such. The final episode is actually an interview with
Sherlockian pasticheid Larry Mallett, and they talk about his most
recent novel at the time, Charlock Holmes and the Eisendorf Enigma.
I enjoyed it a lot, and that's all I've got
(56:48):
for now. It's finally time for me to get back
to continuing to build my lego Charlock Holmes boknook, which
i'd set aside on the shelf. Visitur for a while,
so I'll catch you out later by.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Oh, it's lovely to hear Madeline again.
Speaker 2 (57:09):
Yeah, yeah, And it's nice to hear that she's putting
those bricks together.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yes it is. And boy, that is completely on topic too,
because that, you recall, is the prize in the last
episode's canonical couplet. So why don't we get right to that. Yes,
it's everyone's favorite Sherlockyan quiz program canonical couplet, and it's
(57:37):
become especially popular when we give away a prize the
size of the Lego Sherlock Holmes booknook while we had
a record number of contributors or contestants, i should say,
for the last canonical couplet question or quiz, and we
are going to get to that right now. This is
(57:59):
the clue. We gave you a figure at the window,
gave a fright that took a note from Holmes to
set it right. Bert, do you know which Sherlock Holme
story we're talking about? Oh yes, yeah, that's a wonderful
(58:20):
case convincement.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
Well, it begins at the Diogenes Club when my craft
is served an undercooked pudding. It's the case Professor Presbury
called the Creeping Flan.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
Well, I love a good Flan's the biggest flan I am.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
I'm appalled you're a scott Mountain.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
Yes, well, no, We were not looking for the flan,
We were not looking for sticky toffee pudding. We were
not even looking for spotted dick in this case. But
I have spotted Eric Deckers and he has said, Whila,
I've solved it. It's the story of a soldier who
(59:16):
disappeared right after high school and joined the military and
then became a successful assassin who had become horribly disfigured,
returned to his hometown for a time and in time
for his high school reunion, but stayed hidden because of
his injuries. It's the story Watson called gross Point blanched. Wait,
(59:42):
that's wrong. I fell asleep watching my favorite John Cusack movie.
It's more likely the adventure of the Blanched Soldier. Yes, Eric,
you have identified it. It is the Blanched Soldier. Now,
I must say, even though we did have a record
(01:00:03):
number of contributors this time around, a number of them
guessed the yellow face, which makes sense, but that's not
what we were looking for this time. Although you know what,
I'm feeling kind of generous. I do want to make
(01:00:23):
sure that people will still get their chance at this
So I'm going to throw their names into the barrel
and as we give it a big spear here and
wait for it to slow down and pick out a
name or a number, and it is number forty two
(01:00:45):
forty two, and that looks like it is Michael Struck.
The congratulations you are the winner of the Lego Sherlock
Holmes booknook, so we will be getting your information to
send that off to you. And now this time around,
(01:01:06):
we have another canonical couplet to give you. The quiz
or I should say, the prize for this quiz entry
is an item from the Sherlock Holmes vault. Here I
hear of Sherlock Everywhere vault. So ready, here we go.
When a missing gem sparked consternation, Holmes chose a sly impersonation.
(01:01:36):
If you know the answer to this episode's canonical couplet,
put it in an email addressed to comment I hear
of Sherlock dot com with canonical couplet in the subject line.
If your name is chosen at random from all the
correct entries, you'll win. Good luck. Okay, Bert, What are
(01:01:58):
you doing for the rest of August?
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Well, there isn't all that much in the rest of August,
but there are some Sherlockian events groups you know, small groups.
The best are getting together a couple of times for
a dinner in about three days and then a little
breakfast the following week. What about you? What are you
all doing?
Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Well? It is largely academic here. Moving one of my
sons into his apartment up in East Lansing, Michigan, so
he gets ready to go to Michigan State, and getting
the other one all prepped for his school work this fall,
and our youngest heads off to middle school. So yeah,
(01:02:44):
all sorts of school preparation. And of course looking forward
to our next episode where you and I are going
to be speaking with a well respected Sherilokian author. That
should be a lot of fun. Can't wait to hear
how that turns out?
Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Oh, me neither.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Well. Until then, I will remain the on the edge
of my seat, Scott Monty.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
And I am the interview seat. Huh, And I am
the I am the just a footstool.
Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Birtwold, Oh, by the seat of your pants, step right
up and together, who we say?
Speaker 4 (01:03:29):
Mm hmmm?
Speaker 9 (01:03:31):
The gamesa a foot, the games of the foot.
Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
I'm afraid that in the pleasure to this conversation, I'm
neglecting business of importance which awaits me.
Speaker 6 (01:03:58):
Thank you for listening. Please be sure to join us
again for the next episode of I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere,
the first podcast dedicated to Sherlock Holmes.
Speaker 9 (01:04:12):
Goodbye and good luck, and believe me to be my
dear fellow, that is sincelie yours, Shelock Holmes.
Support for I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere comes from MX Publishing,
with the largest catalog of new Sherlock Holmes books in
the world. New novels, biographies, graphic novels, and short story
collections about Sherlock Holmes find them at MS publishing dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And listeners like you who support us on Patreon or
substack sign up for exclusive benefits at Patreon dot com,
slash I Hear of Sherlock or I Hear of Sherlock
dot Substack dot com.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere, Episode three hundred and sixteen,
The Sherlock Holmes pub.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I head of shelocke it very well, since you became
a strumming man.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
In a world where it's always eighteen ninety five. It's
I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere, a podcast for devotees of
mister Sherlock Holmes, the world's first unofficial concerting detective.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I've Heard of you before, Holmes, The Medland Holmes, The
Busybody Homes, the stockland Yard, Jacket Office.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
The Game's afoot As we interview authors, editors, creators, and
other prominent Sherlockians on various aspects of the great detective
in popular culture.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
As we go to press, sensational developments have been reported.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
So join your hosts Scott Monty and Bert Walder as
they talk about what's new in the world of Sherlock Holmes.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
A time.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I'm Mill Curtis. This is I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere.
Speaker 6 (01:48):
Now Here are your hosts Scott Marty and Bert Walder.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Oh, thank you very much, mister Bill Curtis, and welcome
everyone to I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere, the first podcast
for Sherlock Holmes Devots where it's always eighteen ninety five.
I'm Scott Monty, I'm Burt Wilder and Bert Are you
about ready to head off to the pub?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Bill Curtis is there already drawing his initials again and
again on a beer coaster.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Wow, that's lovely. But you know, at this time of
the day, it's a little early to be going to
the pub, don't you think? Tell Bill that it's the
pub's fault for serving breakfast sandwiches.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yes, there you go.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
No, it's always a great time to go to the
Sherlock Holmes Pub, located in the heart of London. It's
been around for well for longer than this show, that's
for sure. It is something that is known as well
a great place for the locals, it's also a great
place for tourists for the visiting Sherlockians. It has become
(02:59):
one of the destinations that you must go to for
a variety of reasons. But we, in our grand luck
with this show, happen to have a couple of individuals
who are responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of the
two to twenty one b Baker Street sitting Room inside
(03:21):
the Sherlock Holmes Pub, Roger Johnson and Gene Upton. They're
going to share a little bit about their background history
and their experience working with the Sherlock Holmes in an
interview shortly, but I've got a number of other features
ahead intoday's show as well. You're going to hear about
Sherlockian Society activities in the Learned Society's segment of the show.
(03:45):
Madeline Kinnonez is back with another installment in a Chance
of Listening per review of various Sherlockian podcasts from across
the space, and of course stay tuned. You won't want
to miss the canonical couplet Sherlock Holmes Quiz where we
give you two lines of poetry and ask you to
(04:07):
identify which of the sixty stories it came from. We
will be announcing the winner of the last episodes couplet
because they will be getting the Lego Sherlock Holmes Booknookah,
I want to stay tuned for that. Lots of that ahead,
(04:28):
and don't forget. You can support the show by becoming
a Patreon patron at Patreon dot com, slash i Hear
of Sherlock, or a supporter on substack at i Hear
of Sherlock dot substack dot com. We've got links to
both of these methods of supporting us in the show notes,
so you might want to check that out, but it
(04:50):
gets you additional content. We actually have some visuals that
Roger has shared with us from the Sherlock Holmes pub
that will be available only to our page supporters, so
if you'd like to have a glance at those, if
you'd like to listen to the show ad free, if
you would like to get bonus content from time to time,
(05:10):
that's how you do it, so we would be delighted
to get your support either way, and don't forget. Leave
us a comment, leave us a rating or a review,
correspond with us at comment that I hear of Sherlock
dot com. We love hearing from you, and we love
you letting other people know that you love the show
as well. So thanks in advance. Well you know that
(05:39):
stately tune. That's right. It is time for the learned Societies,
where we tell you about Sherlockian Society activities. Taken from
the Sherlockian Calendar at Sherlockianclendar dot com that is run
by Ron Fish, member of the Baker Street the Regulars.
(06:00):
If you have an event that you would like to
see added to the sherlock In Calendar, just get in
touch with Ron. His email address is right at the
top of the page there. I'm sure he would be
delighted to add you to the calendar. So, last time
we were here, Bert, I think we left off halfway
through the month of September. So we're picking up on
(06:21):
September sixteenth. Now, yes, Cent, where does that land us?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Terrified? I'm terrified because on September sixteen, the Sherlock Holmes
Society of the Cape Fear will be holding a virtual
meeting where people will be shivering all on their phones
and computers and Tom Campbell is the contact for that,
and you can find out more at Sherlock Holmes Soociety
(06:47):
dot com.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
That's a great url. No mention as to whether the
meetings culminate on a houseboat going down the river, do they?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
No?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Good? Well? On no not. November September twentieth, the Norwegian
Explorers have a virtual meeting. It's their study group. Tom
Gottwalt is the contact there. You can find out more
at Norwegian Explorers dot org.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And you can have lunch on September twentieth in Nashville,
Tennessee with the Nashville Scholars of the Three Pipe Problem.
Jeff Stewart is the contact and their website is Nashville
Scholars dot com.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And if you can't be in Nashville for lunch on
the twentieth, well you can be in Bethesda, Maryland on
the twentieth. The Red Circle of Washington, DC is holding
their lunch meeting. Peter Blow of course runs that August
group there at Red Circle DC dot org.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And and boy, if you're weary on the twentieth of
September all of these events, you can relax in Cincinnati
at the Tankerville Club. Their animated Film Festival is happening
on September twenty in Cincinnati and Dan Andreaco is your
contact there.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
On the next day, September twenty first, the Sound of
the Baskervilles is hosting a virtual meeting. David Hogan is
your contact at Soundothebaskervilles dot com.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And then off to Madison, Wisconsin on September twenty first
for the Notorious Canary Trainers an in person meeting. Glenn
Link is your contact there.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And also final event on the twenty first. If you
happen to be in the northeast, make your way up
to Keene, New Hampshire for the Monadnock Sherlockians. Our friend
Anna Barons runs that group or contact information is there,
and I might add late September is a delightful time
to be heading to northern New England because the colors
(08:53):
will already be starting to peak.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And twenty fourth of September Monroe Township, New Jersey, Paul
Hartnets Middlesex Constabulary has their.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Regular meeting and if you would like to be part
of the Afghanistan Perceivers virtual meeting, they are going to
be meeting on September twenty fifth, and they are Tulsa
Dash Sherlock dot org. Brian Wilson is the contact there.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Twenty sixth of September two in Baltimore, the Six Napoleons
is having their dinner meeting. And this is actually part
of a sequence of events over the next day or
so that tickle around like Domino's. So in a minute
we'll be telling you more about what happens the next day.
But Baltimore, Maryland, Greg Ruby, and you can find out
(09:51):
the details of the Six Napoleon's dinner meeting at Sherlock
Baltimore dot com.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Also on the twenty sixth, if you are in Saint Charles,
Missouri or thereabouts, the Harpooners of the Cunicorn are hosting
a meeting. Jonathan Basford is your contact there at Harpooners
dot WordPress dot com.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
And September twenty seventh, Beautiful Royal Oak, Michigan, Regina Stinson
is holding a field trip for the Ribston Pippins, and
you can find their website at Ribston Hyphen Pippins dot com.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
All right, and as you promised, back in Baltimore the
next day, on September twenty seventh, there is going to
be a lunch meeting of the Sherlockians of Baltimore, following
that Six Napoleons meeting the night before Greg Ruby and
Sherlock Baltimore dot com or where you can find out
more information.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
And last in September, on the twenty seventh in Chicago, Illinois,
Tourists International is going to be meeting, and that your
contact there is Jonathan Schimburg and their website is Tourist International.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And there may be even a speaker you've heard of
going to that particular meeting. I will be there talking
about the past, present and future of Sherlock Holmes. I
can't wait to hear what I'm going to say.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Oh me neither.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Wow, It's all in the future.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Friends.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Well, if you would like to add your group to
this list or simply browse through all the offerings, just
go to Sherlockianclendar dot com and inform the world, share
the wealth with all of these wonderful events that are
going on all around North America. Our friends at MX
(11:49):
Publishing are always coming out with new books, and of
course we have talked your ear off all about the
MX Book of New Sherlock Holmes Stories and its final volumes.
But what we'd like to talk to you about.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
Now.
Speaker 7 (12:02):
Are four new books.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
In twenty twenty five. There Sherlock Holmes and The Adventure
of the Black Pharaoh by J. M. Reinbold, Sherlock Holmes
Takes the Case Eight Tales of Mystery and Intrigue by
David McGregor, to twenty one b On Her Majesty's Secret
Service by Mark d Ellis and The Hidden Enquiries of
(12:27):
Sherlock Holmes by Arthur Hall. All four of these books
are exciting adventures in the pastiche style, taking you through
various locations and various time settings in the Sherlockian universe.
Pick any one of them, pick all four, It doesn't matter.
(12:48):
You're going to have a good time as you read
some of these new books that are available from MX Publishing,
and just as a reminder, MX offers audible books as
well as paperback and hard bat and ebooks, so pick
your format and get these books in whichever you choose.
Speaker 7 (13:08):
All available at MX publishing dot com.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Gene Upton was born and brought up in Wincoede, Pennsylvania,
an area where Christopher Morley lived when he worked in Philadelphia.
She was involved with a number of Sherlock in groups
on the East Coast, and then the nineteen eighties joined
the Sherlock Holmes Society of London. She attended her first
meeting with the London Society in nineteen eighty seven for
a trip to Granada Studios when the Jeremy Brett series
(13:46):
was being filmed. In nineteen eighty nine she was invested
in the Adventuresses of Sherlock Holmes as Missus Farintosh, and
in two thousand she received her BSI investiture of Elsie Cubit.
Nine ninety two she married Roger Johnson and became a
permanent resident in the UK. Gene and Roger co wrote
(14:06):
The Sherlock Holmes Miscellany, published by The History Press in
twenty twelve. Roger Johnson was born and still lives in Chelmsford, Essex.
He's been a member of the Sherlock Holmes Society of
London since nineteen sixty eight. In nineteen eighty two he
started the society's newsletter, The District Messenger, which Gene then
(14:27):
took over editing from twenty seventeen until twenty twenty three.
In two thousand and seven, Roger took on the editorship
of the Sherlock Holmes Journal and recently passed the reins
over to the capable hands of Mark Jones. Through his
editorial connections, He's in touch with Sherlock Holmes groups throughout
the world, and he holds honorary memberships in societies in Australia, Canada, France,
(14:52):
the USA and the UK. He received hiss BSI investiture
in nineteen ninety one as the pal Meal Gazette, and
in two thousand and eight was awarded as ash investiture
of Shinwell Johnson. For over thirty years, Gene and Roger
have both contributed to or appeared in numerous television documentaries
related to Sherlock Holmes and Arthur Conan Doyle. Their most
(15:15):
recent appearance was on the popular TV series The Yorkshire
Auction House, in an episode entitled Elementary. My dear Angus,
Roger and Gene, welcome to I hear of Sherlock everywhere.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Now I have to say the two of you are
fixtures in the Holmes end environment.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Ornaments, I would say ornaments, ornament fixtures. Well, you know
fixtures or things like faucets, you know they're ornamental fixtures.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
How's that described? Me as an ornament.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
It's hard to imagine the Sherlockian world without you both.
You have contributed so much, as we just heard in
the introduction there. But we want to get back to
the beginnings with you in this conversation. So why don't
we start where we start with all of our guests
and ask you where you first met Sherlock Holmes. Gene,
you want to take that first?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Oh gosh, Well, in my case, growing up in the
United States from a very early age, I had already
encountered Sherlock homes through the Basil Rathbone films being shown
on television, and I think there were some cartoons, probably
Warner Brothers cartoons that had a Sherlock comes figure in them,
(16:39):
so I was already familiar with the character and the concept.
And then when I was about six years old, I
am a very quick sequence went through all the major
childhood illnesses and had to be confined to my bedroom
for quite a long time. So I read through all
(17:00):
the children's books that I had and then started on
the others that I hadn't, and one of them was
The Adventures and Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes. And it says
rather a lot about Conan Doyle's writing that, despite the
fact that this was not an illustrated book and I
(17:20):
was only six years old, remember, I carried on and
read through every single story, So that was really my
first introduction to the character proper. As Conan Doyle wrote.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It, impressive, Wow, and what about you, Roger Well.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
I was aware of Sherlock Holmes as a concept from
early on, mainly I guess from cartoons, from caricatures, humorous
use of the character. Movies we didn't get a lot
(18:07):
that were reckoned to be appropriate for youngsters, but we
had the radio series Yes with Carlton Hobbs and Norman Shelley,
which I absolutely loved. But I didn't start reading the books,
(18:27):
I think till I was about ten or eleven. Might
have been a little earlier because our public libraries classed
them as adult reading, and I have had to be
I don't know, ten or eleven to join the adult
(18:48):
section of the public library. But once I got stuck in,
I really loved it all. Just trying to think, I
honestly not remember, because I had known of Sherlock Holmes
in some detail for well, it seems, you know, since
(19:10):
I was in the Cradle, which really is quite true.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Well, of course your mother was a teacher, so you
might have heard of Sherlock comes through her.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Oh, very likely that you know from I was a
reader from the age of what three? Gina and I
both were early readers.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Yeah, I was reading fluently by the age of four.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, wow wow.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
But yeah, Sherlock Holmes. Yes, it was I guess the
radio series that was the one of the great prompts. Yeah.
When I when I was able to borrow the books
from the public library, I just reveled in them.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
That's wonderful. And it's interesting that you both describe a
world of Sherlock Holmes in the entertainment industry, whether it's films, cartoons, etc.
And then radio. Certainly, so much of our visual and
audio imagination is already colored by the time that we
(20:30):
get to the books. But the books themselves open up
a whole new universe. And well, as you both know,
it opens us up to a universe of other people
who are interested in Sherlock Holmes. Absolutely, and so that's
why I think we want to get this for the record,
because the two of you are one of the most
(20:52):
long standing Sherlockian couples out there. How did the two
of you first meet and discuss over your mutual love
of Sherlock Holmes Well.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
The District Messenger, which I started a long time ago.
Jane was an early subscriber, so we corresponded by well
by post initially, and but we sort of knew each
(21:31):
other long before we met. The first event at which
we were both present was the visit to Grenada Studios.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I think, Yes, we appear in photographs together, but we
didn't meet on that occasion.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
We were separated by Tony Howett. Yes, and if you
knew Tony, you was.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
A considerable roadloge.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Yes, it was such a line lovely man. Yeah. So yeah,
that was the first event that we both attended and
we didn't actually meet. I think it till when the
Society went to Cambridge.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yes, but I had started coming over to the UK.
I guess it was nineteen eighty seven. Yeah, the trip
to Granada Studios was my first time, and so I
sort of started planning my holiday each year around the
activities of the Society because we usually will have a
(22:35):
long weekend away somewhere. So that was my excuse to
come over to England do the thing with the society
and then I'd have the remainder of the week or
so to myself. And as Rogers says, we finally met
face to face in Cambridge.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Yeah, and we got on well together, I think, didn't we.
And when did I come over?
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Well, you came over once we were engaged. You came
over for Christmas nineteen ninety one. Yeah, to meet my family.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
That's right, Yeah, that we had. Obviously we'd met two
or three times.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Oh yeah, over here, over here.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Yes, yeah, meeting meeting in the States, and yes, as
you say, with your family. And among the rather astonishing
features of that event was receiving my investiture into the BSI.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yeah, the investiture was given to Roger at my house,
which was a house where Christopher Morley had lived. So,
as far as I know, Roger's the only person who's
had his investiture in a place where Christopher Morley had been.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Yeah, bizarre. And yeah, Tom Sticks.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Tom Sticks was unwell because he had just had surgery.
So it was Bob Tomalin who invested you. And a
day or two later we went to visit the Sticks.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Yeah, God was a delight.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
So Jeane, how did you come to be living in
the house where Christopher Morley had lived.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
It was a house that my parents purchased early in
the nineteen fifties. Christopher Morley lived in Wincot, Pennsylvania when
he was working in Philadelphia because there were good train connections.
So the house where I grew up he rented while
(25:01):
he was having a house built for himself and his
family just a couple of blocks away.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Wow, ghosts, ghosts. Oh yeah, and Jeane, what about you?
By the time you went to the Grenada Studios visit
with the Sherlock Home Society of London, which you say
is your first trip to the UK at that point,
were you involved with any other Sherlock activities in the States?
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Had you met other Sherlocke There were a couple of
groups at the time in Philadelphia. There was the Clients
of Sherlock Holmes and I'm desperately trying to remember the
name of the other one with Copper Beaches quite a while.
I'm sorry, I can't remember the name of the other, but.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's probably the one that Bob Kats and Michael founded.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Oh no, there was another one as well. Victoria was
the name of the woman who was running it. Yeah,
for the life of me. I can't remember it, okay,
but Herman Berman was involved with that one. Yeah, it's
(26:22):
so long ago now, I just can't recall it. But
I was also involved with the Men on the Tour
Tyke Nvers group. Yeah, and I'm trying. There are a
couple more in New Jersey. So basically anything that was
with an easy driving distance I would go to.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, I'm surprised we didn't run across each other at
the Men on the Tour, Geene, that was my first group.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Possibly we did meet.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
We may have, but we just didn't know it. It
was like Roger meeting you know, Tony wasn't there. Keepest
part it was Tyke.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Right, Well, I went to the meetings that you let
Cass Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Small world. Well, so I'm going to ask the obvious
question as we get ready to talk about the Sherlock
Holmes pub here. But how is it that we didn't
find Roger relocating to the States and we instead found
Gene going to England.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Well, my family originally came from over here, and in fact,
one branch of the family is from a village probably
about thirty miles from here, and another branch of my
family went to the United States in sixteen thirty on
(27:46):
a ship that was built about fifteen miles from where
we are.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, that's more of it, so it all comes home.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yes, they were the founders of the ma Chusetts Bay Colony.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Well, Geene, we have some relatives together on that too.
I'm part of the Alden branch. So ah for anyone
who's into history and genealogy. But let's let's talk about
the history of the Sherlock Holmes Pub here. I know
that's what everyone's been waiting for. I remember on my
(28:26):
first visit to London to twenty one b Baker Street,
wasn't the tourist trap that it is now, although it
obviously still existed, But the Sherlock Holmes Pub was one
of the places that an interested Sherlockian from America had
(28:50):
to visit. So how did the Sherlock Holmes Pub come
to be in the first place, and what was it
even before it was the Sherlock Holmes.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Well, before it was the Sherlock Holmes, it was originally
called the Northumberland Hotel, and you'll recognize that name from
the Hound of the Baskervilles. But although people assume that
that is the hotel that Sir Henry Baskerville stayed at.
(29:23):
It was a commercial hotel for traveling salesman, that.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Sort of thing, the sort where you not only shared
a room, you shared the bed.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
That when Northumberland Avenue was built in eighteen eighty three,
three luxury hotels were built along there, the Victoria, the
Metropole and the Grand. And while that building was going on,
(30:02):
the Northumberland Hotel changed its name to the Northumberland Arms.
So when Henry Baskerville came he would not have stayed
at the Northumberland Hotel because there was no Northumberland Hotel
(30:23):
at that time. And I'm damn sure that he would
not have stayed at the Northumberland Arms. He would have
stayed at one of the one of the Yes, it
was in nineteen fifty seven that the owners of the
pub as Whitbread, they were leaders in what we now
(30:50):
know as theme pubs. They used to call them feature inns,
and they decided that London needed a Sherlock Home Hotel
or Sherlock Holmes Pub rather, and they chose this one.
And as there were a lot of the items that
(31:11):
had been exhibited in the Festival of Britain Sherlock Holmes
Exhibition that were basically not reclaimed. They made a bit
for them and they got material from other interested parties
(31:35):
and so the Northumberland Arms became the Sherlock Holmes. There
were still material in there, especially in the sitting room
that had been part of the exhibition.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Region to the fifty one accidents.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
Yeah, so that's the reason. And it's one of the
few of the theme pubs I think that that have
maintained its character since the early fifties or the mid fifties.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
And of all the pubs, it's the only one that
has a pictorial sign because they know the image of
Sherlock Holmes is that important.
Speaker 6 (32:22):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
So outside there's hanging a profile. It looks it almost
looks like the Frank Wiles portrait from.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Well a new one now. Oh yeah, I think it's
God what's his name?
Speaker 4 (32:40):
No, I can't remember. Sorry, we're both getting old.
Speaker 5 (32:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Sorry, it's the fourth design I think for the pub
sign over the decades.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, certainly since we've been associated.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So for those who haven't visited the Sherlock Holmes Pub,
it's interesting because on the ground floor you go in
and it's pretty much standard pub layout, design, comforts, etc.
But on the walls, of course, there are portraits and posters,
(33:18):
and I remember there being the mounted head of the
Hound of the Baskervilles under glass. There so a lot
of choch keys and thematic kind of touches there to
make you feel as if well you are certainly in
the Sherlock Holmes Pub. But the real magic occurs when
(33:39):
you ascend to the first floor, and that's where the
restaurant seating is. But it's not just the restaurant. There
is a recreation of the sitting room at two twenty
one B Baker Street, and this is where all of
those are. Most of those artifacts that you talked about
from the nineteen fifty one Festival of Britain reside in
(34:04):
this recreation. And why this is amazing, We happened to
know a couple that are the caretakers of that room.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Roger and Jean.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
You are responsible for the upkeep and good standing of
that sitting room. That's amazing. How did that happen?
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Yeah, when I first moved over here, when we were
going to get married, I had to establish residents before
we were married, and then after we were married. I
had to wait until I could get my passport stamp
so that I could get a job, so I had
a lot of spare time on my hands while Roger
(34:49):
was at work during the day. And I guess it
was late February. I had gone up to London and
had lunch at the pub and I had a look
in the room and I thought, oh, that's looking rather unloved.
And if you can visualize around the mantlepiece, there's a
(35:12):
needle point embroidery that stretches around it and one end
was hanging in shreds oh no, and the room just
looked tired. So being a very busy pub, I know
it would be ridiculous to try to speak to the
managers then and there. So I wrote them a letter
(35:33):
because this was the days before email, and we arranged
to meet and they were a little bit tentative at
first because they've been getting a lot of hassle from
the Sherlock Holmes Museum, and I think they just wanted
to be sure I wasn't a mole on their behalf. Yeah,
But once I explain the Sherlock Holmes Society's background with
(35:58):
the pub and that I had free time to give
them a hand. They were well on board. They were
so happy because it's a really busy pub and they
just couldn't spare the times themselves to go in and
try to sort out the room because what had happened
was immediately above that room there was either a dishwasher
(36:21):
or a washing machine that had lenked okay right down
the ceiling and basically destroyed the room. Everything was covered
in dirty plastery water. The papers all had to be
taken away and replaced. There was a map from the
(36:44):
Sign of four which Colin Prestige had drawn, and if
you tried to pick it up, it just crumbled, so
I had to redraw that. But in those days the
pubs had different opening hours. They had to close during
the afternoon, so I would go in wait for the
pub to close. I think it was around three o'clock,
(37:07):
and then I would dive into the room and have
about two and a half hours in which to try
to get the place looking reasonably presentable. And my god,
it was just so filthy I can't even begin to describe.
But fortunately I think it was later that year or
(37:29):
earlier the next year the pub was going to be
closing for renovations and they were going to be making
structural changes and redecoration and everything, so the room had
to be packed up and taken away. So I single
handedly packed up everything that you see in that room.
(37:52):
And I had to do it because time is of
the essence. While people were dining, people looking through the
window at me as I was wrestling with the bearskin
rug trying to get it into a bin bag.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Missus Hudson's at it again.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
So, Jane, what year was this that you just for
our listeners? You know, so that.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
It was nineteen ninety two when I first made the
connection with the pub, and it's just carried on from
there through different owners, different managers, different renovations. I've packed
up that room I think three times now.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So that first period between the end of the Festival
of Britain and you're getting connected to it and looking
at what had happened in the room is a little
more than thirty years then.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, wow, I imagine. You know, over the years there
would be members of staff who would go in there
and maybe do a little bit of dusting, but I
think I was the first to give it a really
proper clean up, because it really was quite neglected, and
(39:13):
you consider that some of the items in there were
actually Victorian, so they were already one hundred years old
and very fragile.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
What did you find when you first went into the
room that struck you as unusual or wonderful or I
mean beyond the things that crumbled when you touch them,
you know, and all the things that had been so damaged,
did you find any mementos that you know, you really
spoke to you?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Well, there were so many little objects in there, and
it was very strange to be handling them. Because when
I was a very small child, I became aware of
the pub through magazines. One of my mother's friends subscribed
to foreign magazines, and I think we must have had
picture post or something, so I had already seen pictures
(40:08):
of it, and as a child, I thought, gosh, it
would be wonderful to go see that. And then when
I started visiting the pub, I used to think, wouldn't
it be great to get in that room? So walking
in there, all of a sudden I got my wish
and that was quite special. I know that members of
(40:28):
staff don't like going in there because basically, once you
shut that door, you're in a soundproof room. There's very
thick plate glass and there's no air circulation, so it's hot,
it's dusty and very dry. Whenever I used to work
(40:52):
in there for anything more than twenty minutes, I would
take in two glasses of water with me, because you
really needed it.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
It's in a big display case.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
I guess, well, it is. It is. It's quite eerie
if you're on your own.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Do you do you find that you look forward to
those visits? Do you do you dread them? Is it
more work than play at this point? How do you
feel about it?
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Initially? I quite enjoyed the challenge because there were instances
when they were doing the renovations that I was able
to take items home and work on them. Like we've
talked about the embroidered surround on the mantelpiece. I tried
to restore that, knowing the way that museums would go
(41:48):
about it, and washed it in my bathtub by hand.
And the first wash, the water was so dark you
probably could have drawn it up into a pen and
written it it was disgusting. But washed it thoroughly until
(42:09):
the water ran clear. Lea photographs of it hanging out
on her washing line, but that required a lot of restoration,
partly because they had a real problem with moths in there,
so I had to reconstruct quite a lot of it
and Sherlock Holmes's coat and deerstock or the moths, well,
(42:30):
there was a hole in the coat that I could
have put my head through. And we've had to replace
the dressing gowns several times because the dressing gowns were wool.
So I was always keeping an eye out in charity
shops to get something appropriate for the period. And I
think we've replaced it three times now. But they've now
(42:53):
sorted out the moth problem. They also had trouble with
mice in there. I was always climbing dead and I
that was a joy.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Well sure they were dead, it was too dry.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
So so Gene, tell us a little bit about this
most recent renovation. Now, over the years, you know, Whitbread
is no longer connected to the to the pub Thin
Green King now because how these how these things are
managed in the UK and owned and operated. So what
was this most recent renovation.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Well, they basically redecorated the place and they've done it
really well. I have to say, whoever they had as
their designer really did their homework because we're still finding
new things, all sorts of little easter eggs almost you'd
call them, like there's a little picture of the goose
(43:53):
from the blue carbuncle, and yeah, it's just fun to
keep looking for things. They took good care of the
older stuff, but they were very happy just to leave
the room to us to cope with. And it's rather
good that they did that because there have been managers
(44:15):
in the past under different ownership, I will add, who
used to rather indiscriminately allow people into the room to
take photographs and a lot of things were small enough
to fit into pocket, yes, old boy. And there was
one particular manager I think he was Australian that the
(44:35):
other staff absolutely despised for good reason, and we heard
from former members of staff that he was selling stuff.
And one of the items that disappeared, rather unfortunately was
a silver hypodermic case which had Conandal's signature reproduced in
(44:55):
engraving on it. Now it hadn't belonged to Conandor. I
think this was something that someone had made up, but
it was still quite irritating that that, of all things,
had to disappear. But the one item that really foxed
us was when we walked in one day and the
boxing gloves were gone. How the hell do you sneak
(45:20):
a pair of boxing clubs?
Speaker 4 (45:22):
I don't know, but it took me about a year
to find an appropriate pair to replace it. Oh and
they look great, but they're made for small hands. But
you wouldn't know that. Well you see them, they are
the real thing.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah. Well that that brings someone in the question about
how frequently new items get added to the collection there
or replacement items? Shall we say? I mean obviously we're
not looking at newly manufactured things, although replicas I would
imagine are partially the case. And how do you go
(46:03):
about searching for those kinds of replacements?
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Well, shure eyes out in secondhand shops charity shops. But
there are people who know that we look after the
room and they'll often give us things like period magazines.
Who was it who did the box from the Diagom?
Was it Denny Dowry who gave us that?
Speaker 4 (46:28):
I think it was.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Yeah. So a lot of people will contribute items that
will put in there, and if it's possible and they're
visiting in London, we allow them to place the item
in the room self that's nice.
Speaker 8 (46:43):
It's always a pleasure to take really interested people into
the room and keep an eye on them.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
That's always necessary obviously.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, I always have to warn them to watch out
for the bearskin rugeah, because every damn time I go
in there, and it doesn't matter the hundreds of times
I've been in there, I always trip over it. I know.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Yees.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Unfortunately, that's got to be marvelous because I mean, you
both remember the first time that you entered that room
and the feeling that you had, and now you have
the opportunity to bring that same kind of wonder and
joy to other people for the first time.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
It's a real privilege. Yeah, we're the only people who
have had a key to that roompart.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
From the manager, for more than thirty years now.
Speaker 4 (47:49):
Yeah, and I don't think any manager has had a key.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
For that long.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
Yeah, stay that.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
Yes, for what's the name your husband? Yes, she carried on.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
She carried on for quite a whime.
Speaker 4 (48:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
So I mean there must be a time in the
future at some point when the two of you will
need to hang up your keys. Are you taking on
apprentices or how does this process work?
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Well, we're hoping to find someone who can take it on,
preferably someone in or near London. So we're just keeping
our ears to the ground at the moment.
Speaker 4 (48:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Well, if folks would like to make a bid to
I hear of Sherlock everywhere, we will.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Now.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
But no, this is this is a valid concern that
you know, if we have absolutely a listener, a Sherlockian
home useium, whatever you happen to call yourselves, that is
local to London, and that hears this and would like
to get in touch with Roger and Jane, please get
in touch with us and we will make the connection
because this is a heritage that is important to pass on.
(49:11):
It's part of history, it's part of culture. It's become
woven into the very fabric of London, just as Holmes
himself did well.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
As far as we're aware, apart from Festival Hall whoops,
oh sorry, we nearly lost you for a moment. Okay,
apart from Festival Hall on the South Bank, I believe
this is the only bit of the exhibition from nineteen
(49:43):
fifty one the people can still go and see. Yeah,
so historically it is significant and I have to say
full marks to Green King because they really understand the
significance of this. Now, there are a lot of other
companies that probably would have just stripped out the room
(50:05):
because they could probably fit another six tables in there
and make what twenty four more covers for a meal.
So yeah, good on them for keeping it.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Well, let's hope they do for many many years to come.
Before we let you go, Roger and Gene, I do
have to point out one thing near and dear to
my heart and Jean you you probably are aware of
this because you painted a portrait of Arthur Conan Doyle
that for a long time hung on the far wall
(50:37):
of I think it was over the fireplace, if I'm
not missing. Yeah, I had my portrait on the wall
opposite that for a few years. Remember, I posed as
a young Sherlock Holmes when he first came down to
London and had his rooms at Montague Street. David Whole
arranged that entire operation there, and it was probably one
(51:00):
of the greatest honors of my Sherlockian career.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
Yes, I remember you were holding a test to something
I think it was. Yes, I remember that well.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Both pictures are still in the pub, although Dean's portrait
has moved downstairs, now downstairs.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
Lovely, that's good, it gets more prominent viewing. Well, Roger
and Jean. Any other words before we let you on your.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Way, Well, can you think of anything?
Speaker 4 (51:36):
We had hoped to visit the pub last Saturday for
any updating necessary, but when we got to London we
found it had been taken.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
Over by anti war protests. Yes, anywhere near the pub.
Speaker 4 (51:59):
Oh boy, we are intending to go next wonderful.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Well, please give it our regards, yes, of course. Well.
Roger Johnson, gene Upton, thank you so much for sharing
your stories with us here on I hear of Sherlock everywhere.
Speaker 4 (52:17):
Well, Scott monte Bert Wilder, thank you very much indeed.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
And we tried to keep it clean.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Well done, well done. You know a lot of our
discussions around the world of Sherlock Holmes and all of
(52:47):
us you know, who are so interested in keeping green
the memory of the master, you know, tend to involve
in one way or another how much of a labor
of love this is. And talking about a labor of love,
you know, is a great summation of what Roger and
Jane have done. It's just extraordinary. For thirty years, just
(53:11):
out of a sense of commitment and honoring the recreation
of the sitting room and the presentation and popularity of
Sherlock Holmes and keeping that fresh and green. It's just
been an extraordinary effort, and I'm so pleased we had
the opportunity to talk with them and to you know,
point a small little spotlight on what they've done here,
(53:34):
which is really just remarkable, particularly when you think of
the thousands of people who have been through the pub
since it opened I think in nineteen fifty seven and
scene that display. It's just remarkable, it really is.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
And all it takes is someone with a passion, someone
who kind of looks at something and says, hey, why
isn't someone doing something about that, and who says, well,
why can't that someone be me? You know, it could
happen in any walk of life with really anything that
(54:12):
you happen to be interested in. All you have to
do is step forward and raise a hand, and more
often than not, you'll find that the people that you
interact with in those situations will say, yeah, sure, we
love it, go for it. And I can't wait to
see how this grand tradition gets passed on to the
(54:32):
next interested Sherlockian. Well, she had a brief hiatus, but
God bless Madeline Kenyonez, she is back and ready for more.
With this installment, it's a chance of listening with your correspondent,
Madeline Kinyonez.
Speaker 5 (54:54):
Hello everyone, I'm Madeline Kenyonis and today I'm here to
talk about podcast that slip past my notice. That's been
the thing about this segment. I think that I've found
every Sherlockian podcast out there, and then oops, there's one
from twenty seventeen that I hadn't heard of before. The
(55:15):
Coffee Clatch Crew podcast is a show run by a
couple Jason Pistorino and Christina Lomangino. Over the years, they've
covered a lot of TV shows, and that includes BBC Sherlock.
Although it only includes the last season of Sherlock. Still,
that makes it the fourth podcast I've found that discusses
(55:37):
the show episode by episode. Sixth actually if you include
the Baker Street Babes, which did do some episode discussions,
and the three Patch podcast. And I appreciate that. I
think it's easy to forget now sometimes when we're closing
in on a decade out from the last episode. But
Sherlock really was a global phenomenon alongside Game of Thrones.
(56:01):
It was one of the last shows on TV to
be so widely watched before streaming services got to be
as huge as they are now. And love it or
hate it, that is really impressive for Sherlock Holmes adaptation.
So let's talk about highlights. The first episode is actually
a recap of the entire show prior to the final season,
(56:24):
and that's a fun listen. Neither Jason nor Christina are Sherlockians,
but they did some dives to look into Easter eggs
and such. The final episode is actually an interview with
Sherlockian pasticheid Larry Mallett, and they talk about his most
recent novel at the time, Charlock Holmes and the Eisendorf Enigma.
I enjoyed it a lot, and that's all I've got
(56:48):
for now. It's finally time for me to get back
to continuing to build my lego Charlock Holmes boknook, which
i'd set aside on the shelf. Visitur for a while,
so I'll catch you out later by.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Oh, it's lovely to hear Madeline again.
Speaker 2 (57:09):
Yeah, yeah, And it's nice to hear that she's putting
those bricks together.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yes it is. And boy, that is completely on topic too,
because that, you recall, is the prize in the last
episode's canonical couplet. So why don't we get right to that. Yes,
it's everyone's favorite Sherlockyan quiz program canonical couplet, and it's
(57:37):
become especially popular when we give away a prize the
size of the Lego Sherlock Holmes booknook while we had
a record number of contributors or contestants, i should say,
for the last canonical couplet question or quiz, and we
are going to get to that right now. This is
(57:59):
the clue. We gave you a figure at the window,
gave a fright that took a note from Holmes to
set it right. Bert, do you know which Sherlock Holme
story we're talking about? Oh yes, yeah, that's a wonderful
(58:20):
case convincement.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
Well, it begins at the Diogenes Club when my craft
is served an undercooked pudding. It's the case Professor Presbury
called the Creeping Flan.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
Well, I love a good Flan's the biggest flan I am.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
I'm appalled you're a scott Mountain.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
Yes, well, no, We were not looking for the flan,
We were not looking for sticky toffee pudding. We were
not even looking for spotted dick in this case. But
I have spotted Eric Deckers and he has said, Whila,
I've solved it. It's the story of a soldier who
(59:16):
disappeared right after high school and joined the military and
then became a successful assassin who had become horribly disfigured,
returned to his hometown for a time and in time
for his high school reunion, but stayed hidden because of
his injuries. It's the story Watson called gross Point blanched. Wait,
(59:42):
that's wrong. I fell asleep watching my favorite John Cusack movie.
It's more likely the adventure of the Blanched Soldier. Yes, Eric,
you have identified it. It is the Blanched Soldier. Now,
I must say, even though we did have a record
(01:00:03):
number of contributors this time around, a number of them
guessed the yellow face, which makes sense, but that's not
what we were looking for this time. Although you know what,
I'm feeling kind of generous. I do want to make
(01:00:23):
sure that people will still get their chance at this
So I'm going to throw their names into the barrel
and as we give it a big spear here and
wait for it to slow down and pick out a
name or a number, and it is number forty two
(01:00:45):
forty two, and that looks like it is Michael Struck.
The congratulations you are the winner of the Lego Sherlock
Holmes booknook, so we will be getting your information to
send that off to you. And now this time around,
(01:01:06):
we have another canonical couplet to give you. The quiz
or I should say, the prize for this quiz entry
is an item from the Sherlock Holmes vault. Here I
hear of Sherlock Everywhere vault. So ready, here we go.
When a missing gem sparked consternation, Holmes chose a sly impersonation.
(01:01:36):
If you know the answer to this episode's canonical couplet,
put it in an email addressed to comment I hear
of Sherlock dot com with canonical couplet in the subject line.
If your name is chosen at random from all the
correct entries, you'll win. Good luck. Okay, Bert, What are
(01:01:58):
you doing for the rest of August?
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Well, there isn't all that much in the rest of August,
but there are some Sherlockian events groups you know, small groups.
The best are getting together a couple of times for
a dinner in about three days and then a little
breakfast the following week. What about you? What are you
all doing?
Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Well? It is largely academic here. Moving one of my
sons into his apartment up in East Lansing, Michigan, so
he gets ready to go to Michigan State, and getting
the other one all prepped for his school work this fall,
and our youngest heads off to middle school. So yeah,
(01:02:44):
all sorts of school preparation. And of course looking forward
to our next episode where you and I are going
to be speaking with a well respected Sherilokian author. That
should be a lot of fun. Can't wait to hear
how that turns out?
Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Oh, me neither.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Well. Until then, I will remain the on the edge
of my seat, Scott Monty.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
And I am the interview seat. Huh, And I am
the I am the just a footstool.
Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Birtwold, Oh, by the seat of your pants, step right
up and together, who we say?
Speaker 4 (01:03:29):
Mm hmmm?
Speaker 9 (01:03:31):
The gamesa a foot, the games of the foot.
Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
I'm afraid that in the pleasure to this conversation, I'm
neglecting business of importance which awaits me.
Speaker 6 (01:03:58):
Thank you for listening. Please be sure to join us
again for the next episode of I Hear of Sherlock Everywhere,
the first podcast dedicated to Sherlock Holmes.
Speaker 9 (01:04:12):
Goodbye and good luck, and believe me to be my
dear fellow, that is sincelie yours, Shelock Holmes.
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