Science, Doctors & 4,000 NDEs: Proof of Life After Death?

In this live series of the Imagine Heaven Podcast, John Burke interviews two leading medical doctors about the science of near-death experiences.

Dr. Mary Neal, an orthopedic spine surgeon, had a powerful NDE—and then tried to disprove it. 

Dr. Jeff Long has studied over 4,000 documented NDEs through decades of research.

What they discovered changed everything. Listen as they unpack how science, clinical cases, and personal experience all point toward a life beyond this one: one more exhilarating and real than anything we know.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, I'm John Burke, author of the New York Times
bestselling book Imagine Heaven and Imagine the God of Heaven,
and this is the Imagine Heaven Live series. I'm going
to be doing this live series in between seasons of
the Imagine Heaven podcast. So if you have not listened
to the ten episodes of the Imagine Heaven Season one podcast,

(00:20):
I hope you'll go back and do that. You'll find
many topics relating to the commonalities of near death experiences
and how they relate to the Bible. In this live series,
I'm going to be letting you hear some of the
full live interviews I've done over my forty years of
researching close to one thousand, five hundred cases of near

(00:41):
death experience. In today's episode, you're going to hear from
doctor Mary Neil and doctor Jeff Long, two medical doctors
that I interviewed during COVID, and listen as we talk
about the science of NDEs as well as many other topics.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
The boat and I were immediately and completely submerged under
about eight or ten feet of water. I knew that
I had been underwater already too long to still be alive.
My spirit rose up and out of the river, and
I saw my body being pulled ashore. I saw the
guys start CPR, and I could look at my body
and recognize that that was my body, that that represented

(01:24):
my life.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
Here we were in an accident where another was ran
into my horse. She reared up, flipped over backwards with
me on her back, and fell across my body.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
As she hit my.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Chest, I immediately left my body. I was up thirty
forty feet in the air.

Speaker 4 (01:41):
I was looking down at a airplane that had crashed.
I had seen a body over here that was dead,
but I knew this body really well. Right then it
hit me, I'm not in my body. There's my body,
but here's me.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Been fascinated with these near death experiences, and by near death,
I don't mean like they almost got hit by a car,
I mean like dead dead. At first, I was very
skeptical of these, but I'll tell you, after studying over
a thousand of these near death experiences, it's changed my mind.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
I was in this experience for what felt to me
like many, many, many hours, but in fact the entire
thing was probably thirty minutes.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
It was like we had this wave of light under
our feet. Pushing us forward, and it was almost as
if I could see the stars go by.

Speaker 4 (02:34):
I began to see a small, bright, brilliant glow that
got bigger and bigger and bigger.

Speaker 5 (02:41):
So how do we know these people were truly dead?

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Doctors, cardiologists, oncologists have actually been able to look at
medical records to show, yeah, these people were truly dead
by all the ways that we would clinically talk about death.

Speaker 5 (02:58):
The nine wheels of the driver's side of the truck
rolled over the car, So I was just really killed
instantly blunt force trauma. They pronounced me dead on the scene.
As to how long I was clinically dead without brain
function or heart function, at least thirty minutes.

Speaker 6 (03:16):
According to the medical records, it was an hour and
forty five minutes that I was not breathing, our heart
beating during that timeframe. So in the sense of a skeptic,
I always tell them, you may say I didn't go
to heaven, but you can't say I didn't die because
they didn't have any brainwave at that time.

Speaker 5 (03:31):
That fact that the near death experiences are occurring during
that time that consciousness should be a blank slate is
medically inexplicable. It should be impossible for them to be
remembering anything.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Having looked at my medical records corroborated as many details
as I could about the scene at the river, I
ultimately concluded that my experience was outside the realm of
science and outside the realm of medicine.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Scientists possilate there must be at least five dementia to
make sense of some of the things science is discovering.
Is it so crazy to think about what comes after
this life? Well, if you just watched the evidence for
the afterlife. I have two of the doctors here with me,
doctor Jeff Long and doctor Mary Neil, and we're going

(04:19):
to be diving into more of that evidence. How do
we know these near death experiences, when someone clinically dies
and revives and has a story to tell the life
to come, how do we know those are actually true?
So first of all, let me just thank you guys,
doctor Long and doctor Neil. You're doctors, you're still you're

(04:43):
out there on the front lines right now in this
coronavirus as we're all shut in.

Speaker 5 (04:49):
You guys really on behalf of all the medical community.
Thank you, or we thank you all who are part
of the medical community.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
But tell us just a little of you, know where
you are, what you do, even maybe how.

Speaker 5 (05:03):
This coronavirus is affecting you right now.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah. Well, I'm Mary Neil, and I will tell you
that as my background, I think it's a wonderful thing
because I am basically you. I grew up in the
Midwest and was taken to Sunday School and was confirmed
in the church, did all that thing, and then, like

(05:29):
most of you, went off to college where I made
a choice. I thought that I had to choose between
science and faith. So I chose science. I went on
to medical school and residency and fellowship, and I ran
the spine service at University of Southern California, and then
moved to Wyoming, to God's Country. And I know it's

(05:50):
not Texas, but it's pretty beautiful. And I now live
in Wyoming and I practiced as a spine surgeon. And
the are trying times. I mean, it's a very difficult
time to be alive, I think without a foundation of faith.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
You said you had a fourteen hour surgery yesterday, didn't you.

Speaker 5 (06:18):
I mean it was a long day out.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, I'm pretty tired, but it's really it's such a
privilege to be here today and share with you and
share with your congregation. John, thank you for that.

Speaker 5 (06:32):
Well, it's far beyond that.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Many people who you know are listening in that just
you know, probably checked in for the first time and
are wondering what's all what all this is about?

Speaker 5 (06:42):
Hey, doctor, doctor long, tell us just a little about
your your medical practice. Where are you. How's the coronavirus
affecting you?

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well?

Speaker 5 (06:51):
Sure, John, I'm practicing in Homa, Louisiana, which is one
hour away from New Orleans, one of the major coronavirus
of sinners. So we're impacted continuously by increasing number of cases,
stretching medical care here to the absolute limit. So here
I am at work, continuing to take care of my

(07:12):
patients with cancer. I'm a radiation oncology physician, which is
the use of radiation to treat cancer, so I'm really
on the front lines. In addition to being a physician,
I'm a near death experience researcher. I've investigated over four
thousand near death experiences and have written about some of
the largest studies of near death experience ever published. So

(07:34):
that's been something I've been doing now for over twenty years,
my journey in my near death experience research has affected
me profoundly. It has greatly increased my faith and understanding
that there is a God, that there's an afterlife, that
Jesus is a reality and not just a hypothesis. And
it's really certainly, step by step made me a better
Christian and John, especially in these trying times we have

(07:57):
here where people are sick dying at a level we've
never seen in this area of home ever that I've
been here. I think that ability to reach out to
people with that courage and passion and that faith is
more important now than it ever has been.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Well, I think it's important for people to know that,
you know, kind of like Mary was saying, neither of
you started there, did you? I mean, doctor Neil, I'd
love to hear a little more of your story. But
I'm curious, just like if you had heard about a
near death experience before you actually had one, what do
you think your response would have been?

Speaker 5 (08:34):
Or did you hear about it?

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Oh? Now, I really had never heard of them until
I died, And if I had heard of them, I'm
pretty sure I would have just rolled my eyes and
thought that's a little that's a little out there, because
I will admit that when I did start having kids,

(08:57):
I did take them to church. But I will also
readily admit that I think I took them to church
mostly to give them a moral foundation rather than actually
a way of living. And I don't know. I mean,

(09:17):
I'm a little embarrassed to admit that, but no, I was,
and actually I continue to be a scientist. One of
the things that I discovered is that the choice between
science and faith is a false one because science and
faith answered different questions and really coexist very easily. And

(09:39):
so now it's a very different thing. But I'm a
very analytical person, and I have to say that even
now when I hear people's profound spiritual stories, whether it's
a near death experience or death visitation or something that's
truly a miracle, I have to tell you my initial

(09:59):
respec spons is not one of total acceptance. Immediately. I
still listen to what they've said and think, huh, how
does that fit into God's reality?

Speaker 5 (10:16):
Yeah, and I've said I've said the same thing.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
You know, I had an engineering background, and everyone that
I hear I at first take with a grain of
salt and It was really more the seeing the commonalities
of thousands of them.

Speaker 5 (10:32):
That changed my mind.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
But I'm curious, so what changed your mind was you
actually had one of these? Why don't you take us
back and just give us a little run of what
happened that day?

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Okay, well this is a very cliff notes version. But
in nineteen ninety nine, my husband and I went whitewater
kayaking in South America, and circumstances were such that I
was forced to go over about a fifteen foot waterfall.
When I hit the bottom, my boat was pinned or
stuck in the rocks in the underwater features, and I

(11:07):
was immediately submerged under eight to ten feet of water.
And that's where I stayed for about thirty minutes. And
while I was under there, I didn't panic. I mean,
I'm a spine surgeon. I'm very used to high stress situations.
But the thing that really changed my life and has

(11:28):
really gone on to help other people reevaluate their own lives,
is that at a certain point I made a very
active choice not to passively say, oh my gosh, God,
please come and save me, or a passive acceptance of
God's will. But I made this active choice to say no, God,

(11:48):
not only do I want your will to be done,
but I'm really excited about it. Whatever that meant living dying.
I mean, I had a husband and four little kids.
I had everything to live for. But it was a
very active choice. And when I asked that question, and
I meant it for the first time probably ever, I
was then immediately overcome with this incredibly physical sensation of

(12:11):
being held and comforted and reassured that everything was fine.
My husband be fine, my little kids be fine. And
the most incredible part of that is that I knew
that I was being held by Christ. And it took
me a long time to acknowledge that publicly because it's
so outlandish. I mean, I already said I was no zealout.

(12:33):
I hadn't earned the right to be there, I hadn't
deserved it. But there I was, and I knew that
Christ would be there holding. Anyone who asked anyone.

Speaker 5 (12:44):
Who how did you know? How did you know it
was Jesus?

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Well, people always ask that, and my response is always
the same, which is, Okay, I've been with my husband
for almost forty years. If I went to the grocery
store and I saw my husband, I would not have
to walk up and ask him if he were built.
I know my husband. This knowledge was absolute and pure

(13:10):
and complete, and it was Jesus Christ who was holding me.
And that is just the reality. I don't I mean,
that is just a knowledge that is beyond questioning.

Speaker 5 (13:22):
Well, what's interesting.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
I'm actually going to do an interview next week with Heidi,
who was raised in a Jewish atheist agnostic home, but
she always believed in God and she dies at sixteen
when her horse falls on her and she was completely
shocked because Jesus was there, and she said, I felt

(13:47):
like I had always known him.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, and Jesus, no matter what one's background is, is
always the guy that shows up. It's never anyone else
if someone's going to show up. And I have to
tell you, even though I am a physician and I've
been around death in my training and my practice, I
had never lost anyone I knew or loved, and I

(14:11):
had never really thought about death. This was not something
I hoped for or expected. I'd never really thought about it.
So part of me was just so surprised that, oh
my gosh, wow, this might be true. What's going on here?
And then he took me through this life review that
truly was nothing I could ever have imagined. It had

(14:34):
everything to do with grace and absolutely nothing to do
with guilt or remorse or regret or any of those
destructive emotions. It had everything to do with grace and
God's absolute love. It was nothing. I mean, I could
start crying now for I really think about it. It
was incredible.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
And people I've interviewed have said that that the memory
or experience many times is as real today as it
was back then.

Speaker 5 (15:03):
Have you found it?

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yes, Because I think that profound spiritual experiences have a
different quality. It's not a memory. If I told you
about big events in my life, I would be recalling
a memory, and big events I could remember pretty well.
That the little details might change a little bit. I
think when it comes to profound spiritual experiences, when we

(15:27):
describe them, we describe them in the present tense. I mean,
during all of these experiences, there's a shift in time
and dimension. And I don't know that the terminology that's
accurate to describe it, but I know that when I
describe my experiences, I am talking about them in the
present tense. This is not a memory that I'm trying

(15:48):
to recall, and I actually think that's what the Bible is.
I mean, I always learned that the Bible was the
inspired word of God, but I actually think it's people
who were are you living present tents these profound spiritual experiences.
So no, that's you know, my description in everyone's description
is exactly the same one day later or twenty years later.

(16:13):
The details, yeah, no, they never changed.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Okay, now hold hold on for a second, because when
I was still a skeptic, you know, I would have
probably been like, I don't know, you know, thirty minutes.
I mean, nobody stays dead thirty minutes? How did how
did she know it was thirty minutes? Is there any
proof it was thirty minutes? You know, maybe all of

(16:38):
this is like delusion from the last dying effects of
a brain, you know, maybe it's something we just don't
understand yet.

Speaker 5 (16:46):
And I know, and I.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Know doctor Jeff, you started there as as well, you know,
So tell us, Jeff, what changed your mind?

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Well?

Speaker 5 (16:57):
Sure, John, When I first read about near death experiences,
it was a medical journal article, the Journal of the
American Medical Association, and I'd never heard the term before,
and I was immediately astounded. Now, John, I'm going to
show me type of person. I think extraordinary claims like
near death experiences, which bring forth consistently that message that

(17:19):
there's an afterlife, a wonderful for one for all of us,
really requires extraordinary evidence. As a radiation oncology physician, I
make day to day decisions that are like and death
based on evidence, So no surprise. When I first read
about near death experience, I was skeptical, and I said,
I want to find out the reality, the truth about

(17:40):
near death experience, from the best source of evidence that
I possibly can. That's when I put up my website
encouraging people to share their experience, immediately having a very validated,
detailed questionnaire about that to answer the question that I had,
the burning question, are near death experience is for real? Well,
that was over twenty years ago, and I can tell you,

(18:01):
after over four thousand near death experiences, overwhelmingly consistently, the
message is absolutely yes, no doubt, near death experiences are real.
I was astounded that I went for being a skeptic
to being one who says, okay, that is stronger evidence
for the reality of near death experience than frankly, most
evidence lines I have to make my decisions to treat

(18:24):
cancer patients. It's that strong. So that really it's been
a part of my life ever since, and it's just
been a delight to hear near death experiences. People share
them with us every week, and then we have these
beautiful experiences like what Mary just shared. Just become a
very important part of my life and certainly increased my
Christian faith enormously.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
So let me push into that a little bit though,
because you know, you're both medical doctors, and I know
you both tried to explain.

Speaker 5 (18:52):
Them away or you've had you.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Know, you've had skeptics married, you know, pressing and go well,
wasn't it this or wasn't it that? And doctor Jeff
just talked about, you know, two of them in that video.

Speaker 5 (19:06):
Of mind altering drugs or hypoxia.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
What are some other ones that you've heard or you know,
what have you learned and looking into it?

Speaker 5 (19:19):
You know, John, one of the more common things that
people think near death experiences must be because they're so unearthly,
is perhaps they're related to dreams. In the very first
questionnaire that I ever put up over twenty years ago,
I asked a very open ended question was your experience
dream like in any way? Suggesting that if there was

(19:39):
anything about their near death experience it was like a
dream at all, they would say yes and share it.
I have never been more embarrassed in the responses I
got to questions from people that had near death experiences.
It was no, absolutely, no, no way, It's nothing like
a dream. And I really felt bad about asking it
from near death experiences themselves. They were adamant, beyond just

(19:59):
about anything I've ever seen, that near death experiences have
absolutely nothing to do with dear death experiences and their
clarity in there and how it's remembered for Batim years
to decades after it happened, about his uniqueness from other
life events, about that ripping sense of reality that they
almost always have every time when they have a near
death experience, so nothing like dreams. A common skeptic question,

(20:23):
not even close. Asked anybody who's had a near death
experience about.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
That, Mary, what have been some of the skeptical you know,
push a lot. I would agree entirely with Jeff in
that these experiences are not like any other human experience.
When I uh, basically as my kids would say, when
I got kicked out of heaven because my spirit and

(20:49):
I left my body and I went up and had
a have an experience, and at the end of that
I was given a laundry list of work I still
had to do, and one of the more challenging things
on that list had to do with the coming and
unexpected death of my oldest son. So when I came

(21:11):
back and went through you know, multiple surgeries for broken
bones and many months of rehab, I had incredibly intense
motivation to find an alternative explanation.

Speaker 5 (21:24):
Because because you had you.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Well knew if I could find any other sort of explanation,
I would be able to discount everything I'd been told,
including what I've been told about the coming death of
my son. And so, as I said earlier, I had
never heard of a near death experience. But I went
back and looked up every single explanation, including dreams and

(21:50):
hallucinations and you know d MT or neurotransmitter trips, and
you know the physiology of a dying brain, and on
and on and on and on. Everything anyone suggested to
me I latched onto, and I went back and looked
at the original literature, the original data, and read everything
I could and what I came to conclude, and that

(22:14):
was I will say that was the first time I
ever heard about near death experiences. But what I concluded
was exactly the same as what Jeff has A has concluded,
which is these experiences are outside the bounds of science
and outside the bounds of medicine.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
So I know people are wondering, So what happened? Did
that happen to your son?

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yes, actually ten years afterwards, he was hit by car
and killed entirely unexpectedly, and it was really a whole
series of I'm going to say miracles, but there are
many things that happened leading up to his death that

(23:01):
further prepared me and prepared my family to do what
had been asked of me when I was still in heaven.
And there are a number of things on that list
that have come to pass and some that haven't. We'll see.
I mean, doing what I'm doing now is part of it.
It's not something I ever would have signed up to do.

(23:23):
But you mean talking about this, well, talking about this
Like most people, I'm not really a public person, but
the fact is these experiences are incredibly common. There are
millions of people in this country alone who have had
these experiences, and I feel that the more we talk

(23:45):
about them, the more encouragement it gives to other people
to share their own stories. And through this experience, I
have found that transformation comes when people experiencing things for themselves.
If they know someone personally who has had a profound

(24:06):
spiritual experience, then it's a whole different game. Then they're
no longer a skeptic.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
So, doctor Jeff, I know you have debated people even
about the alternate hypotheses. What kind of things have you
come upon and why have you.

Speaker 5 (24:27):
Concluded No, it's got to be something real. Yeah, good question.
I've debated, John. I've debated a lot of folks that
have near death that are skeptics of near death experiences.
I will say I've never lost a debate. I think
that's because the evidence for the reality of near death
experience is so strong. Just another example, skeptics may say, well, gosh,

(24:50):
these experiences are so unearthly, like nothing that we've experienced
in our earthly life. They must be hallucinations. Will shoot
as position. We know darn good and well that people
that have hallucinations as a result of altered brain function,
the experiences may hop all around they're more often to
be frightening, they're more likely to have unreal content. We

(25:14):
know in the medical world be personally from having seen
people that have had hallucination, that near death experiences are
nothing like hallucinations at all. John, Over twenty different skeptical
explanations have been proposed over the years, and the reason
there's so many is that no one or several explanations
make sense even to the skeptics themselves. So, you know,

(25:34):
people seem to come up with a new skeptical explanation
every year or two and that's quickly shot down, and
there's really no explanation for any part of what's observed
during a near death experience that makes sense. These are,
I'm convinced, based on evidence, the real thing that these
are a visit to an unearthly realm of existence and

(25:55):
bringing back very important information, information that is vital not
only for the person who had the near death experience,
but certainly could inform, inspire, and help us all leave
better lives even if we haven't personally had a near
death experience.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
The other part of it, John, is that people want
to focus on things that they don't believe because most
people really don't want it to be true because it
would be very inconvenient for their lifestyle. But when you
look at near death experiences, for example, there are many
skeptics who focus on the fact that we don't all

(26:31):
describe beauty in the same way, but we all describe
intense beauty. But why would we all describe beauty in
the same way during our near death experience when we
don't experience beauty the same on earth? And I think
that's one of the things that speaks to the truth
of these experiences. And I think it's incredible. I absolutely
believe that God presents to each one of us at

(26:53):
the time of our death the experience that will speak
to us, that will make us feel known and loved.
And because we're going home, it's a homecoming party, and
God wants to make sure that we know where we
are well.

Speaker 7 (27:08):
And you know, just like.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
In a court of law, if you have ten people
who all say verbatim the same thing of what happened,
you have collusion, right, I mean, that doesn't happen. But
if you have ten people who say basically the same thing,
but all their stories show from a different angle, with
different details and different perspectives, then you have good evidence.

(27:33):
And that's what I found when I studied near death experiences.

Speaker 5 (27:37):
There there are these.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Amazing commonalities, and I know, doctor Jeff, you found the
same thing. They're these amazing commonalities, but there are uniquenesses
along the way as well, and not every experience has
the same depth of experience and that.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
But when you have people saying basically the same.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Structure of this organized experience that's more real than anything
they've ever experienced, and they're saying that all over the globe,
young and old, despite their cultural.

Speaker 5 (28:10):
Background, I just can't imagine.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
I just haven't heard anybody give a really good alternate explanation.
It usually is, you know, I don't want to think
about it, and.

Speaker 5 (28:23):
So it's this, John, I couldn't agree more with that.
That's exactly what I found too. I think every near
death experience research from history has been astounded as you was,
and I was at the amazing consistency of what happens
during a near death experience. In my over four thousand
near death experiences, it can be young and the old,

(28:44):
same experience anywhere around the world, same experience, no matter
what their prior belief system of what they believed in
as far as religion goes, or even if they were atheists. Remarkably,
at that moment of their close brush with death, astoundingly
consistent content and the near death experience that got my attention.
As a scientist, I know the foundation of science is

(29:06):
what's real is consistently observed, and you absolutely have that
near death experiences.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
So, Mary, I know there was more to your experience
than you just told. Go into a little more detail
for us, so that people kind of get a picture of,
you know, some of the things you experienced, and that
I'd love to hear. Jeff, you comment on some of
the commonalities you've seen.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Well, of course it would really take me about two hours,
but I won't do that.

Speaker 5 (29:33):
Yeah, in thirty minutes.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Exactly. But I'll tell you even to answer that question,
I was kayaking there with professionals and they are used
to water rescue. They teach water rescue, and even though
we were not in a hospital setting, this is what
they do, and as soon as they figured out that
there was a problem, they started their watch. They're very

(29:58):
cognizant of time because they teach that. They know that
time makes a difference. And so when I talk about
almost thirty minutes that's coming from them. All of those
details are details that they have given me. But my
experience just went on and on and on. My spirit

(30:19):
kind of separated from my body, and as I said,
I went.

Speaker 7 (30:23):
Up to this is when you're underwater. You're still underwater?

Speaker 5 (30:27):
Are you? Are you aware that you're water?

Speaker 2 (30:30):
But well, I told you, I'm a very analytical person,
and I could be helped by christ I could be
taken through this incredible life review. But at the same time,
I was still me, perhaps my best me, but I
was still me, and my little thought balloon to the side,
kept thinking, Wow, this is really strange. There must be
I must have an air pocket or something. And every

(30:52):
few minutes I would sort of do a little self
assessment exam. And I didn't have an air pocket. I
wasn't breathing. I could feel the way of the water.
I could feel the plastic of the boat, and then
I could feel the current working on my body slowly
pulling it over the front deck of the boat. And
that's when my spirit also sort of peeled away from
my body and I could kind of feel that It's

(31:14):
not something I could ever verbally put in. I couldn't
describe it. It was a very strange feeling. But no,
my spirit was sort of released to the heavens. And
were you ever I'm sorry, I just ever in pain
or were.

Speaker 5 (31:30):
You well feeling the d.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
No, I have to tell you that when I grew up,
I don't know why, but the only thing I was
ever afraid of was drowning. I just I didn't care
how I died. I just never wanted to drown. And
so I would have I know exactly never. I would
have imagined being terrified. That was always my deepest fear.

(31:58):
But instead I had not the experience of being conscious
and then unconscious or alive and then dead. I had
the most wonderful feeling. I had no fear. I had
no pain. I mean, I could feel my legs breaking
as I came over the front of the boat, and
I questioned, like gee, I should be screaming, but I wasn't.

(32:19):
I felt great, I felt conscious, and then I felt
more conscious, I felt alive, and then I felt more alive.
As Jeff said, I mean, the intensity of reality experience
color or ramas was something that we can't experience here.

(32:40):
And so no, I didn't have pain. I felt great.
I mean, I thought, wow, dyings, that's so bad, you know.
But I did go up, and I was greeted by
a group of people or spears beings, I'm not sure
what to call them, who had known me and loved
me as long as I have existed. And again there
was a shift of time and dimension so that I

(33:01):
could look back at the river and I could see
them doing CPR. I could see me. I recognized that
it was me. I also recognized that, despite the fact
that I had a great life, great life, I wasn't
planning on coming back. I had no intention, because I
had an absolute feeling of being home, like I had

(33:23):
been on this great adventure to Earth, great adventure, and
now I was home. I was where I really belonged,
and where ultimately we all.

Speaker 7 (33:33):
Really belong What made it feel like home.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
I knew where I was. I knew that I was
loved so completely, a sense of love that we just
don't really experience here on Earth. I mean, my husband
loves me dearly, thank goodness, but most love here on
Earth has some little bit of conditionality to it. But

(34:02):
this was home. It's the feeling of going to some
third world country and staying there for a couple of
months and having a great time. But then you come
back to your own home and you sleep in your
own bed. It's just this overwhelming sense of being where

(34:24):
you belong. And I have never really thought about it
in terms of what aspects really, but it was that
sense of just ah, I'm home, and then.

Speaker 5 (34:38):
Who are these people that were there greeting you?

Speaker 2 (34:41):
Well, I knew that they were people who had been
important in my life story. At that point in my life,
I had not lost anyone. I actually knew, no relatives,
no friends, no no one. But they were people who
are important, maybe a grandparent who died before I was born,
And so I couldn't identify them immediately. I knew that

(35:04):
they were there and overjoyed to welcome me home. I
know that when I go back again now, I do
have some people who I know will be there waiting
for me. But I really didn't take time to look
at them and say, hey, who are you because they
were going to take me down this pathway to what
I knew was the point of no return, to truly eternity,

(35:28):
and I was in a hurry. It was almost like
I said, Okay, look, we have plenty of time to
catch up. Let's go.

Speaker 5 (35:36):
Did you know where you were going.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Home? I mean it was home. It was a sense
like okay, I an absolute not just sense. It wasn't
a premonition a thought. It was an absolute understanding and
absolute knowledge. I was going home.

Speaker 5 (35:58):
Did you did you talk to these people? Did you
touch them, hug them?

Speaker 7 (36:02):
What?

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Well, it's a funny thing. And I wish if I'd
known I was coming back, I would have taken more notes.
But I wasn't planning on coming back. There are a
lot of things I wish I had done, and I
would have if I knew that I was coming back.
But they did have a three dimensionality. I mean, they

(36:25):
were incredibly brilliant. And I know this sounds crazy, but
they were wearing these robes that were woven together with
fibers of love. I mean, it was the most beautiful
thing I could ever imagine. And this pathway was so beautiful.
And to me, what speaks beauty is color and the
intricacies of flowers and the aromas, and that is what

(36:48):
I experienced, every color of the universe and beyond all
at the same time. It's not that they mixed together together,
but I understood color simultaneously, and it just is the
beauty that makes my soul explode. I mean, it was incredible,

(37:10):
and so I didn't hug them. I know that we
were sort of dancing kind of, but not I don't
dance here on earth, so it wasn't that kind of
a dance. But it was rejoicing, truly rejoicing. Yeah, we did,
We did communicate, but it wasn't talking like we are now.
It was almost and I've never been willing to use

(37:34):
that word telepathy because I just think it sounds a
little cuckoo, you know. I don't, I don't know, I
don't know what to call it. But it was almost
this just this transference of knowledge. I don't, I don't
know how it happens. It's almost like this energy wave

(37:55):
or something.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
I mean, people have said it's like the thoughts, the feelings,
they everything, no misunderstanding, communicating a.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Very pure, very very pure.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
I often imagine, golly, we live in such a veil
of communication and such confused communication and such so much misunderstanding.
I mean, right, that change everything.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
It would change everything. But I think that's part of
our challenge. When I go back to my life review.
One of the really life changing parts of it was
being placed back into really painful circumstances and situations, but
placed there with an absolute understanding of the life story
or backstory of everyone involved. And what I found is

(38:47):
that with that understanding, the miscommunication's gone, the destructive emotions
are gone, and they're replaced with compassion and love. And
you're right, if we could absolutely communicate purely, it would
be a very different world. But that would change our

(39:09):
experience here. So that's, you know, that's part of our challenge.
I guess.

Speaker 5 (39:13):
So you said they were they you were.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
You were moving together, and you're you're going toward something.

Speaker 7 (39:21):
How were you moving and what were you going toward?

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Well, we were moving along this incredibly beautiful pathway that
sort of existed in the middle of nothing. I mean
it did. I didn't really look around, I have to say,
but I didn't really see anything underneath it to the sides.
It was just sort of existing, and we were going
to this great dome structure for lack of a better

(39:46):
way of describing it, that I knew was the point
of no return?

Speaker 5 (39:51):
And how did you? How did you know that? And
what is that?

Speaker 2 (39:55):
I just knew it. I just uh. And again, it's
a funny thing. This kind of knowledge I'm talking about
is sort of like if I gave you a wooden
table and I told you it was wood, and you
kind of knew it was would because it looked like it,
versus being the person who grew the tree, cut down

(40:17):
the tree, milled the wood, and made the table. If
you were that person, you would know it's wood. And
it's just fact, right. And I knew that this was
the point of no return, and I was never able
to cross it. We stopped at this archway of sorts,

(40:37):
and I was there for what seemed like many hours.
I mean I may have only been without oxygen for
about thirty minutes, but it seemed to me like many
many hours. And we did communicate then, I mean, I
had this incredible sense of absolute knowledge. I understood how

(40:58):
it all works. I understood the divine of the universe,
and I kept trying to hop over the threshold and
kept being prevented.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Well, it's interesting because you know that that border or
boundary people describe as in my studies, people have described
it in different ways, but there there's an intuitive knowledge
that this is the boundary you can't cross and still
come back to life. In other words, my hypothesis is
that truly is eternity, and that's where our decisions as

(41:29):
well are eternalized. And I think I think that's why
some people can they're still making decisions even in that
in between.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
I think that's true. Yeah, yeah, it's a funny thing
because one would think that you wouldn't have that added
time to make decisions, But I think we are still
making decisions during that time, and it's only at that
threshold then your choices become eternal.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
And time, how do you describe how time worked on
the other side?

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Oh? Time, And it doesn't make sense. And this is
biblical and now I understand it, but I would not
have understood it before. There is no doubt that every
moment expands into eternity, and all of eternity is in
every moment. And I fully recognize that that does not

(42:26):
make sense because it's very difficult to understand it, and
none of us have the language to describe it, you know,
I like you always use the analogy of living in
a two dimensional world versus a three dimensional world. If
you live in a two dimensional world, you can't describe

(42:47):
the third dimension because you don't even have the vocabulary
to communicate it.

Speaker 5 (42:52):
Is that what it felt like?

Speaker 2 (42:54):
Oh? Absolutely. When I listen to other people describe their
spiritual experiences, I know exactly when they lose their vocabulary,
because at a certain part in every experience you lose words.
Those words don't.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Exist, And so it sounds like it's life, like we
know life.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
It is more a more expanded life. It's a different life.
It's not life. I do believe I was still me
in terms of my best me, not my worst me,
I do think, But I still think I had my

(43:38):
same sensibilities. What I do not know is what happens
beyond that threshold, because I didn't get beyond the threshold.
But I don't know even if we still have a
three dimensionality to us. It may be that my experience
had a three dimensionality of sorts, because that's what I
would understand.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
And you knew yourself. You remember your history, it's all
you're still you.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
I did. But even remembering history is remembering it with
a very very different filter, because in God's world, there
are no destructive emotions. I mean, if you think about
that pure communication, if you think about understanding and what

(44:28):
that does in terms of creating empathy and love for people.
It's with a different filter. I could remember all of
my past, but I did not have and still to
this day, I do not ever feel regret, remorse, anger, bitterness,
all of those destructive emotions. I don't feel anxiety or

(44:50):
worry either for the future, because that's not part of
the reality when you start talking about God's love and
God promises.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
So, doctor Jeff, you've studied four thousand of these all
around the globe. What are some of the commonalities that
line up with what you just heard Mary described.

Speaker 5 (45:13):
Oh that's a great question, John, and Mary, thanks for
sharing that absolutely inspiring near death experience. While the many
viewers they're going to say that what you shared Mary
is absolutely astounding and never heard anything like it in
my four thousand near death experiences. Every major point that
Mary made there, I've heard hundreds and hundreds of times.

(45:34):
It's part of the detailed pattern of near death experience,
as part of the reality of what we hear in
near death experiences. So just almost line by line from
Mary's account, there really happens. I mean, the concept of
time either being radically different or non existing in this unearthly.
I call it heavenly round. That's almost uniform and near

(45:55):
death experiences that powerful sense in the near death experience
that you're home, this is your real home. One fact, John,
among the two most common words used to describe a
near death experience by those that have them peace and
love I mean, but off the scale from anything they've
known in their earthly life. Accelerated consciousness. I mean, you

(46:16):
imagine Mary's telling us that, as so many others have
shared their near death experiences, you have a life review
of your much or your entire prior life while you're
unconscious or clinically dead for minutes. That's just an example
of the tremendous acceleration of consciousness you see during near
death experiences, almost uniformly. So these are some of the

(46:39):
commonalities that occur. Is in my opinion, that very unearthly
aspects of near death experiences, almost super normal from what
our earthly sensations are like that further bespeaks the reality
and certainly our lines of evidence for the reality of
near death experiences.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Well, John Ken, I just want to say one I
feel compelled to make this point because we're talking about
near death experiences you're doing a huge series on near
death experiences. It is incredible. I mean, going home is
beyond our wildest dreams. But that does not mean we

(47:23):
should be longing to go home or that it's a
better place, et cetera. Because being here on Earth is
an incredible opportunity and an incredible adventure. And sometimes when
I'm involved in talking about near death experiences, I really
want to dampen that a little bit, that enthusiasm because

(47:47):
the fact is, you know what if you go again
to a third world country and you have this incredible adventure,
how miserable would it be if all you did was
sit in your hotel room longing to go home. I mean,
that's not why you go and advance and experience things.
We come to Earth for this incredible experience. Home will

(48:11):
go home.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
And and God makes it very clear to people who
have that life reviewer, who experience them, you still have
a purpose here right right.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
And my dead, you still have work to do.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Well yeah, and and and it matters. And it has
to do with love, right and how we treat one another,
how we use our gifts to serve one another, and
that it actually matters, it actually counts, and I like
to say that too whenever I talk about this, because
you know, some people have very hard lives, and.

Speaker 7 (48:43):
You know they're like, well, i'll just go there.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Well, that actually is a bad, bad idea, right, Don't
ever think about taking your own life, because it's actually
your life is a gift from God in a stewardship,
even if you don't yet see how or why. But
I think I think Mary, and I know many others
have talked to would say, you know there is a

(49:08):
purpose that God has for you and seek him because
it has many times less to do with what we
think it ought to be than the simpler things of
how to be fully who we are with the people
that He's put around us.

Speaker 5 (49:25):
Would you agree, Mary.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
I could not agree more. That is entirely true. If
we are here, it is because we have work to do,
and there is no doubt that God not only actually
knows us individually, all billions of us on the planet,
but God has a plan for each one of our

(49:48):
lives that is one of hope. And Yep, if you're
not dead, it means you still have a purpose no
matter what your life is seeking out.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
So doctor long back to you in your study of
four thousand near death experiences in what thirty one countries.

Speaker 5 (50:09):
Now we're up to thirty one different languages that we've
studied anyone who Languages survey. Yeah, so that's right.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
So what Mary's talking about of people experiencing God is
a commonality as well. Talk about what you've seen in
your study. Oh, absolutely, God is mentioned in hundreds.

Speaker 5 (50:31):
Of near death experiences. I've actually made a study of that.
When I started studying that, I didn't know what i'd found.
But it's my astonishment that same remarkable consistency of what
people are describing is also the consistency we see when
God's described. God is just the same thing as Mary
described with Jesus. It's an immediate knowing that this is God,

(50:53):
not maybe possibly not doubt. It's that instant recognition that
is often what's described as a light, amorphous being or
even a developed being is indeed God. The most one
of the most common things they describe about God is
that overwhelming feeling of love. They're known for who they are,
all that they are, everything that they are, and loved

(51:14):
profoundly beyond anything that they could have known on earth,
and they feel accepted, perhaps in a way that they
hadn't ever felt that way in their earthly life. They
feel a connection with God unlike often that they felt
with any person on a human being in their life.
When I started studying that, that to me seemed geez,
I didn't think of God that way. But by the

(51:36):
time you see that hundreds and hundreds of times, you
kind of say, wow, I get that. I think Tho's
that real message in near death experiences, that you know,
God is that overwhelmingly loving, overwhelmingly compassionate and accepts you,
me and everyone in a way I hadn't even realized.
And that's exciting. And that's when sort of the science

(51:58):
of near death experiences becomes tremendously inspirational and it's been
a real pleasure to walk that journey my research. Well,
and that.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
You wrote a book called God, God in the Afterlife.

Speaker 5 (52:12):
Well, your first one was Evidence of.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
The Afterlife, right, and then God the Afterlife. And we
were talking once and you told me that, you know,
because I read the whole thing, and I was like, wow, yeah,
you know, that's pretty much what I've seen. Accept Jesus
didn't show off there. And and then you told me, yeah,
your your publisher actually asked you to make that a

(52:35):
separate book talk about what you found that was.

Speaker 5 (52:39):
That's great, John, I'm glad you brought that up. I
started working on God the Afterlife, and of course, you
know Mary described and countering Jesus. Well, I get way
over one hundreds of year death experiences I have was
describing Jesus same thing as God. You just like Mary said,
very eloquently, you know instantly, this is Jesus, with every core,
every fiber of your being, no doubt, that is Jesus.

(53:02):
And so I observed that, and I sort of broke
off from doing my research for the book and did
a very detailed study of Jesus and near death experiences.
And that was an oh wild moment for me because
even after having studied near death experiences that long, here's
Jesus being described once again that and not just some
abstract person who's you know, up in clouds or somewhere

(53:24):
apart from us. Jesus with the near death experiencers listening
to them. And that's actually what Jesus is a major
role is in near death experience, is listening that same
profound sense of love people described with Jesus, that same
profound sense of acceptance. And even if people that have
near death experiences felt some guilt or some anger or

(53:47):
some resentment, there with Jesus, that's all gone. They feel love,
they feel connected, they feel cared for at a level
that was beyond anything that they thought was even possible
on earth. Sowed up quite a big section on that.
I was very excited about that, and her publisher said, Jesus,
this is so dramatic, this is going to pull attention

(54:07):
away from God and near death experiences and recommended I
didn't write it up. So that's the only reason it
didn't go in there, because it really is that dramatic
and really is that exciting, just like Mary knows from
her own personal experience, it's it is really a massively
inspirational thing that again, as much as any I don't
know how you could read about Jesus and near death

(54:28):
experiences and not grow as a Christian knowing that that
is wow, that's that love, that that something that is
beyond anything we know on earth. That that's just inspirational
times one hundred. In my opinion, it certainly was stealed
my my Christian my thinking.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
Well, and the fascinating thing in my research is Jesus
showing up in cultures all around the world and in
a similar way, this brilliant man of light and and
even what Mary said, I've heard multiple people say, I
remember this one woman in.

Speaker 5 (55:06):
Australia and she describes Jesus. But she didn't say it
was Jesus.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
She knew he was divine and she was mesmerized looking
at his robe of how can a road be woven
together with light?

Speaker 5 (55:21):
But Mary said it was love the ropes, like love experiences,
those terms are often synonymous and light and yeah, doesn't
there's no English language words or words in the world.
As Mary alluded to briefly, sometimes this is so unearthly
in the experience you don't really have good words for it.

Speaker 8 (55:43):
And yet it's all that and more love, light and
that something beauty, that feeling of connection that is just unearthly.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Yeah, and when you see Jesus showing up in experiences
in India, you know, this summer, I had a woman
she didn't know I had researched a thousand near death
experiences or written a book or anything. And I'm with
her son, who speaks English. But she was there from
Iran and she only speaks Farsi, and she starts telling me.

(56:19):
You know, she was related to the prophet Mohammed. He
was Hesboah and he had become a follower of Jesus
and was praying for his mom. And his mom starts
telling me about how she died, fell to the ground,
and she leaves her body and sees her son doing

(56:42):
CPR on her, and she turns and looks and Jesus
is there with her, and she knew it was Jesus.
And she's telling me this in Farsi, and she doesn't
know anything about me.

Speaker 5 (56:55):
And you know, I had.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Another one in Portuguese when I was in Brazil this summer,
and people all around the world.

Speaker 5 (57:05):
And so I have a question for you, Mary, having what.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Was he like?

Speaker 2 (57:12):
My description is always the same, and it doesn't make sense,
but I would say that Jesus looked like bottomless kindness
and compassion. And when I tried to sum up really
what it was like to be with Jesus and I

(57:35):
chatted with him later in another out of body experience,
I would very clearly say that Jesus is really this
physical or three dimensional manifestation of love. And again it
doesn't make sense, but if there's a manifestation of love,

(57:57):
of kindness, of compassion. That's what he actually looked like.
And physically, I mean it looked like all of us,
sort of like the colors on this pathway where I
was experiencing all the colors at the same time. I mean,
he looked like all of us because we are we
are all part of God's world.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
Yeah, it's Easter, and you know, the what the Bible
tells us is that Jesus came to reveal God in
a form we could relate to. But it's really an
amazing thought is that God united himself to his creation
in the most intimate way. That's and that's you know, Jesus,

(58:38):
so unlike you, your body stayed dead.

Speaker 7 (58:41):
On earth, your spirit was alive.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
That's kind of version two point oh, right, So that
our physical bodies version one point oh.

Speaker 5 (58:49):
You experienced the version two point oh, but he's got
three point oh.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Because his body and spirit are are united.

Speaker 5 (58:59):
Was a repid, is what you know we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
And I will tell you the incredible thing about Easter,
about the fact that God manifested into this physical form
for us, I think has a bunch of a bunch
of offshoots. One thing that I think is really amazing
when you think about that is when you try to

(59:23):
imagine the depth of love of our father saying, you know, guys,
I so desperately want you to live the joy filled
life that I intended for you. I've got to try
to help you get there. I've got to show you
a different way of living. And I love you so
much and I want so much more for you that

(59:45):
I'm going to send Jesus to the world so that
he can show you my love, so that he can
show you how to love other people, so that he
can point the way to this life that I want
you to live.

Speaker 5 (59:59):
Yeah, you don't have.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
To live in the Old Testament. We have this new
new way. And I just think when when you when
I think about Easter and I really focus on how
much we are loved that God would do that for us.

Speaker 9 (01:00:18):
I mean, you gotta be kidding, because it is like
it is like a parent that would literally lay down
their life for their.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Child exactly it is, and not even lay down their
life beyond that, because God knows not only wants the
best for us, but wants us to live in a
state of joy, which I believe we all can live
in a state of joy.

Speaker 5 (01:00:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Well, and you know what what commonly, even doctor Jeff
referred to of how you know, people feel such compassion
in the presence of God, not a sense of condemnation,
even though as they live their life or view they
see their good and they're bad and it's like real.

Speaker 5 (01:01:11):
Evident, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
And yet that's exactly what Easter was all about, that
God was paying for our wrongs so that we can
be set free of the fear of condemnation or judgment
and the fear of death, all of that, and to
live in relationship with God starting now. But like kind
of like you said, and now is also contained an

(01:01:35):
eternity and an eternity in each of these moments. So
one last question then, well, probably need to wrap up,
how doctor Jeff, has this study affected you?

Speaker 7 (01:01:50):
Changed your life?

Speaker 5 (01:01:52):
Oh? Profoundly, John. I think I was, like so many
other people, especially you scientists, going through medical personnel go
on ips doctors, you go through medical school, and you
kind of pull your focus away from things spiritual. You
began to think analytically. You began to say, you know,
it's evidence if it doesn't, if you can't analyze it,

(01:02:14):
study it scientifically, it's not real. It's kind of a
mindset of a lot of folks in the medical and
scientific community. So I sort of bought into that. And
I was certainly, you know, regularly attended church, but was
sort of a lucropwarm Christian starting to do my near
death experience research as over time, and it did take time.
It literally took a period of years. It didn't happen overnight,

(01:02:37):
but as I kept seeing over and over these powerful
messages of love, the powerful messages of the reality of
an afterlife God Jesus's profound love for each and every
one of us at a level I never thought was possible.
I don't know how that can help but change you,
and it certainly changed me. It's changed me as a

(01:02:58):
radiation psychology physician that's life threatening cancer daily to fight
it with more courage, more compassion than ever before. It
certainly strengthened my Christian faith far more than I ever
thought was possible. I totally get this more. It used
to be based on faith and to a large extent
of hope, and now it's certainly still based on faith

(01:03:19):
and hope, but I have that powerful underlive evidence from
your death experience and other spiritual experiences that's helped fortify
my Christian walk. It's made a huge difference.

Speaker 7 (01:03:31):
And Mary, I know, you know, I read a book
that you wrote after your experience on seven lessons that
you learned, and I'm just curious, you know, like, what
would you say, and especially right now in the in
the middle of the COVID nineteen and there's a lot

(01:03:51):
of fear, a lot of worry and anxiety out there,
you know, what was what were the lessons that you
brought back or the the most important one that you
feel I could speak into what people are going through
right now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yeah, you're right. I mean I wrote that second book
mostly because the first book to having it back, was
just a good story. You know, you read a good story,
you put it down and you go back to your life.
But every story, every experience, is only valuable if it
has the ability to change yourself or to change other people,

(01:04:27):
which is why then I went on to write Seven
Lessons from Heaven because there is no doubt that the
most meaningful part of this experience for me and also
for other people, has really been the understanding and acceptance
that it's all. It's all true. It's real. There really

(01:04:51):
is not only a God that knows us and loves
us and has a plan for us, but there's a
God who has made many promises to us. And if
we can and I believe everyone, even without a profound
spiritual experience, can get to the point where they can

(01:05:13):
choose actively to trust those promises. And I think it's
in choosing to trust those promises, which I've been able
to do because of my experiences, that propels us into
this joy filled life that I really strongly believe we
are all meant to live, that we are all capable

(01:05:35):
of living. It eliminates the destructive emotion. When I think
about the current COVID nineteen crisis, I realize that so
many people are living in an intensified state of fear.
But I think you have to identify what that fear is.
And for most people, it's a fear of death, or

(01:06:00):
fear of a loved one's death, or a fear of
losing your job, or all these fears that have to
do with this unknown future. But I think that one
of the things that I certainly try to provoke people
to do is to address that fear and say, okay,
let me actually look into this, because I find that

(01:06:23):
most people are either intellectually lazy or you know, spiritually
unwilling to look at the data. And I would say,
you know, you look at the work that Jeff has done,
and you cannot deny the reality and truth of these
spiritual experiences. And it is accepting that truth that I

(01:06:47):
think is so life altering for any person.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
And then I loved you know what you wrote in
the Seven Promises, just I mean the seven lessons about
God's promise is and you know that that that is
what He's given us through Jesus time on earth, what
he said throughout the Jewish prophets, so that we can know, okay,

(01:07:11):
what can we hold on to?

Speaker 5 (01:07:13):
What's true? You know?

Speaker 7 (01:07:15):
And it brings that, you.

Speaker 5 (01:07:17):
Know, it's it's what Jesus taught us to pray.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
Uh, you know your will be done on earth exactly
because it's not it's not full.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Now, I have a list of those promises, and when
I face struggles, and we all face struggles, we all
face challenges, there's no question that I read and reread
those truths, those promises, and not only does that give
me the trust the confidence that tomorrow is coming and

(01:07:50):
there will be beauty that comes out of that situation.
But I find that reading through them promotes the continual
renewal of choosing to trust. And I find that once
you've kind of made that intellectual choice, then all of
a sudden, you see things differently. You actually see the

(01:08:13):
miracles that occur, you actually see and feel God's presence
in your life, and it just continues to become a
bigger and bigger snowball.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
I mean, well, I so appreciate you guys both. I
know you're both busy doctors. Thank you so much for
taking the time to share with us your journey. I
know it's going to help many, many people.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
It has been a perfect thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:08:41):
It greatly appreciated. Thank you so much, John Well.

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
I hope you enjoyed this live interview. Hopefully it inspired you.
And if you'd like to dive deeper into the meaning
of near death experiences and how the commonalities of what
people report relates to the Bible, you can check out
my books or the imagine A podcasts and there'll be
links down below in the description. Well, until next time,

(01:09:05):
be blessed.