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March 24, 2025 48 mins
In today’s episode, Aurora answers the question, “why do you stay in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?”

Each person’s conversion story is different, and sometimes people experience a faith crisis, ultimately leading to the choice to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or to stay.

My personal testimony is that the decision to stay, to recommit, to turn towards Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, will lead to the best possible life one can have. From my own life, I have seen how God’s plan for me is much better than the plan I originally had for myself. He knows us best and wants us to succeed. He wants us to come back home.

Thank you, Aurora, for sharing your experience. You were very brave and vulnerable, and I admire your strength. You’re amazing! 🩵

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Dude, Hello, and welcome to my podcast. So today I
am here with a friend from my ward. Aurora has

(00:23):
been someone I've looked up to, a spiritual powerhouse. She
shared a lot of things in Release Society and Sunday School,
and she always backs me up when I share something.
She's like, yeah, I love what Kira said and then
add something. So I've always really appreciated her. I just
recently did that episode Why I Stay, and I reached
out to a Roor to send me a little clip

(00:44):
and she actually said, Hey, I have more to say
on this than sixty seconds. And I was like, do
you want to do an episode? And she said yes,
So Aora, do you want to introduce yourself of share
a few things about yourself?

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Sure? My name is Aurora. Hi, like Kyra said, and
I study psychology Southern Utah University.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Do you graduate this year?

Speaker 2 (01:02):
I do in the fall. But it's good. I'm excited.
And then what else about me? I am a super
artistic person, love to do all things art. I served
my mission in Jamaica shout out.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
So really I did not know that about you.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
I feel like I talk about it all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
No, I didn't know that I knew you served a mission,
but not in Jamaica. It's kind of exciting. Yeah, so
it's gonna be the stupidest question in the world. But
do you speak English?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, okay, Jamaica they do well. It's English adjacent most
of the time, but they understand English, like proper English
is what they call it. But the patois it takes
them getting used too. But it's so fun. I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
So you didn't necessarily have to learn a new language.
You just had to kind of learn how the dialect. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, like I didn't have to learn to speak a
new language, like you pick up phrases and things like that,
and it's fun. But I didn't have to learn how
to understand a whole different line.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
That makes sense. So I like that they call it
proper English.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's funny, Like I don't speak the proper English too good.
And you're like, that's fine, I can understand it.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
You're like, that's okay. I love that. Okay. So, as
you know, I just brought up the Why I Stay
podcast today, we're going to talk about as far as
I know, you seriously considered leaving the church and chose
to stay. So I asked Chatchabet for some questions, go
chat it could be some. So my first question is,

(02:30):
can you describe a time, so probably pretty recently, when
you seriously considered leaving the church. What was going through
your mind at that moment or during that time. Yeah,
so it's like when you say this is like a
year ago or six months ago or no, I'd say
it was way more recently.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Oh okay, Well, like I don't know, I've had like
anybody does. Yeah, faith, they struggle.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
It's a roller coaster.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, Like faith is really interesting in that way that
it's not stagnant and it evolves and it changes in
it backslides and it's it's really interesting. And so I
guess since I got home like over a year and
a half ago now but not quite two years ago,
that I just it's been so weird because you go
into mission and you're super strong and you're you're on

(03:15):
the spiritual high, as they say, and you feel absolutely invincible.
At least I did. I felt absolutely invincible. Like on
my mission, I was like I get it, I get
the Gospel, I get repentance, I get covenance, and I
did I had it. I had an understanding and I
got that understanding, but it was what I understand now

(03:36):
to be just the beginning. Like I was twenty years old,
and how much can a twenty year old really know?
I mean, like, my mission was the most impactful and
the most helpful in bringing me close to God, but
it was so far removed from real life that when
I got to real life, I was like, oh, what.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
I wonder if there's something they can do to make
the transition easier because this happens to a lot of
mission Yeah, and I know they have my plan, but really,
how easy, how how good of a transition is my plan?
If so many missionaries struggle with it coming home?

Speaker 2 (04:08):
I think I agree one hundred percent. I am so
passionate about that. I think that they do a lot
for missionaries. They're like adjusting to missionary life. They have
a whole pamphlet on it, and they're like, I think
one thing that would be super helpful is having real
mental health professionals in mission fields. Sorry this is such

(04:29):
a tangent, but I'm super passionate about this. Like I
had a mental health advisor or something like that, and
she was over multiple missions in the Caribbean, and she
was not a professional, and when I was struggling with
anxiety and adjusting and my mission present was like, yeah,
it would be good if you met with her.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
So I did.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
She like undermined things that my previous licensed therapist had
said and was like, oh, they're just too eager to
diagnose you with things and just want to medicate you.
And I was like, whoa, Okay, conspiracy theory here are
not mental health advice.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
And so I anyway, You're like, I feel real supported
right now.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, And so I think just like supporting the mental
health of missionaries in the field is something that I
think is imperative. I agree moving forward that needs to
be a real focus in the church. And then also
like not being afraid to talk about going home. That's
like one of the biggest things that you don't talk
about when you're on your mission to Like no, no, yeah,

(05:31):
they're like, don't talk about going home, don't think about home,
don't think about school, don't think about any of these
things because it'll make you trunky, it'll make you want
to go home. And it's like, but I can't ignore it.
I can't. And so like they's just coming up. It's
like I've only got so much time here before I
have to live the rest of my life. And it's like,
I think a lot of like a logical fallacy that

(05:55):
missionaries fall into is that like I can't think about both.
I can't exist in too places at once, Like I
can't be on my mission and think about home, and
it's discouraged as well. And so for myself, I there
was a lot of like suppression of like don't think
about going home and things like that, and like, realistically,

(06:15):
what does it feel like to be home and to
implement these habits and things like that. So I think
that would be super helpful, is that, like removing the
stigma of talking about going home, because like on your mission,
the only times you're allowed to talk about home is
like if you're preparing for eternal marriage and preparing to
be a parent. And it's like, yeah, obviously, like I

(06:37):
want to do those things eventually, but like for most people,
we don't get married right after I get home. I mean,
I have plenty of my friends who did that, but
I am not in that boat. So my plan was
just not that realistic. And I think I had huge
blind spots as well. And I think like talking about it.

(07:00):
It's hard to go home. It's hard to adjust for
some people. Some people they're like, oh, I was so
ready to be home, but like I was so ready
to be home, and yet was completely unprepared to be home.
And I dealt with lots of anxiety and like role
confusion and purpose confusion and like just a lot of

(07:20):
I identity, Yeah, like identity and like all of that,
And so that translated to pretty much like, since I've
been home, it's just like figuring out, Okay, who am I.
And that's a big part of young adulthood in general
as well, Like I've you learn about that and like
developmental classes and psychology of just like young adulthood, you

(07:41):
are so focused on the future, and it's designed that way,
Like it's not it's not something wrong with you, it's
not something that you should be worried about. Like it's
on purpose. You are designed to think about the future
and setting it up and all that is to come
in your young adult years and so like it's normal.

(08:02):
But in a way, it was just the combination of
a whole change in identity, a whole change in culture
and lifestyle and all of that, and then also compounded
with my tendency to be anxious and think about the
future and like figuring out who I am, and it
was just so much and so I felt so alone.

(08:23):
And then when bad things happened, like I got my
heart broken out of nowhere a couple of times, and
like school is difficult, and I it's just like the
things that happen in life. I felt so far away
from God. And it was really weird because like, on
my mission, I was so strong. I was like, I'm
never leaving, I'm never doubting, I'm staying so close to God,

(08:44):
and but it's so strange to have those feelings and
then when you do pray, it feels like no one's listening.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
So then these feelings you said were more recently. I
came home from your mission a year and a half.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, and so it's kind of been building up.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Tell me more about that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
So i'd say it got pretty bad, and well, I
don't know about bad, but it was pretty severe maybe, yeah. Severe.
It was disheartening, not disheartening, but the word that I'm
thinking of is along those lines discouraging. Discouraging. Yeah, it
was super discouraging because I was like, I felt so

(09:24):
far away from God, and I felt very disconnected from
the culture as well, like I'm not from Utah, and
so like being here in Utah it is a different culture.
It is different. I became super bitter towards God, and
I became super bitter at church as well, because I
felt like I became like hyper aware of just things

(09:48):
that I didn't like, like how testimony meetings all wards
pretty good. I enjoy going to testimony meetings in our war.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
I feel like for the most part, people really do
focus on their testimony, and other times people get up
there and they tell their whole life story.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
And you're like gay. But it was like, you know,
the typical script of how testimony is go, I know
the church.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
I'd like to bear my test Yeah, yeah, true, I
know that jos the Smith is the prophet. Yeah, it's
almost memorized by now.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
And so like it started there where I was like, Okay,
this is I'm not feeling anything like this isn't heartfelt
I and so I just like started checking out and testimony,
So why'd you keep going? I'm getting there?

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Okay, Sorry, I got really excited. That was a really
bad interview argument of me. I, oh, you're so excited.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Okay, sorry, I'm so sorry, Like this.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Is no, don't be sorry. I got excited.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
I'm sorry, don't be sorry to say I'm also excited.
That's why I'm speaking far too much. So I got
tired in testimony, meaning it was all the same. I
got tired in Sunday School because like there were six
weeks in a row in Relief Society in Sunday School
where it was about covenants. And I love covenants, like
I love the idea of covenants. But you know how

(11:08):
the Script goes in a lesson about covenants? What is
a covenant? The covenant is too way promise speaking you
and God and God sets the conditions and then you
follow them and you agree to them, and like it's
not productive.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
I'm trying to hold back laughter. A promise, Oh okay.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
And then it's like and then we read the baptismal
Covenant and then Covenant, and then we like briefly touch
on the Temple of covenants, and then we talk about
eternal marriage and like how amazing that is, And it's like, okay,
can we talk about something else with covenants? Like if
we believe that Jesus Christ has an infinite and intimate
atonement for each of us. If he is able to

(11:50):
touch our lives as unique as they are, why don't
we talk about that?

Speaker 1 (11:55):
And that's kind of one thing that I was thinking
about is I feel like a lot of it has
to do with the Sunday School teacher slash Relief Society teacher,
and there were just a whole bunch of random people.
So I've always liked your lessons because you try to
take it deeper. And yeah, that was my goal when
I used to teach. So yeah, I agree, it's hard
when there's kind of a script, And I agree that

(12:17):
like mixing things up, is mixing things up is good?

Speaker 2 (12:20):
I think so too, And that's always my goal, is
to take things in a different way and to make
it intimate instead of just asking blanket and expected questions,
to ask personal questions, like and they can be as
personal as you allow them to be. Yeah, that's my focus.

(12:40):
But like so having just less and after lesson testimony
of testimony talk after talk, just being the same and
feeling I felt like I wasn't progressing, And to be fair,
it was like my own bitterness and my own pride
of being like, oh if I was up there, I
would say it differently, like getting in the way. And
so it was mostly cultural things that stood in my

(13:04):
way of feeling connected to God and to the community,
and so like it ultimately that like separation, that checking
out emotionally ultimately led to me like removing myself from God.
And I like stopped praying and I stopped reading my scriptures.

(13:26):
Like those were two habits that I kept up for
like almost a year after I got home. It was
like I at least read every day, and I prayed
twice a day at least, if not at every single
meal that I ate and throughout the day, like I
don't know, like it's been.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
No, I get that when it's part of your life,
you know, just it just happened, say a prayer, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
And so then I was just like, well, i feel
like I'm not progressing in this church. I feel like
I'm not progressing. I feel like I'm not growing, I
feel like I'm not learning anything. I feel like I
know that everything there is to know. And so I
just discouraged and bored and bitter, and I think the
final straw for myself was going to the temple with

(14:08):
my parents. My parents were in town and went to
the temple and I was like already kind of like,
what's the point God isn't listening? And and then like
going to the temple and I just like didn't feel
any joy, and so I was like, you know what,
I'm just gonna stop. And I went to church the

(14:30):
next day.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
And so I don't remember you disappearing.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like I wasn't like,
where's Aurora? You were just there?

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, in person, like yep, I was still there, but
emotionally and spiritually I was anywhere else.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
That's something that I've realized and learned is that lots
of times people leave God before they leave the church,
you know, like they've emotionally disconnected before they actually physically
stopped going m.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
And there were a couple of sun days where I
was like, I just can't do it, and so I
didn't go, and.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Which I think that's understandable for everyone. You know, there's
some days I'm.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Just like, oh, you know right right? And I so.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
Did you still believe, like you still believed in the
doctrine and it was just the culture or what would
you say it was?

Speaker 2 (15:17):
It was interesting because I had totally been like, well, like,
if this is the gospel that is true, then why
is the church like this? You know, the typical question
that a lot of people ask. It's super common for
people to be like, I don't know. I like what
you have to say, but this culture and community is
just not for me, And so that I don't know,

(15:39):
it made me question everything that I believed. I was like, okay,
I'm told like it's like stay for the doctrine, like
ignore the people. It's not about the people. What's about
Jesus Christ? Like stay for Christ. And that's a hard
thing to grapple with, Like it sounds easy in general
conference it sounds easy, and state conference it sounds easy

(16:01):
and talks, but in practice it's so hard to be like.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
You still have to sit through the lessons and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
I still like And so that was so hard. I
don't know. I came up with this metaphor like a
couple of days ago where I was trying to explain
this to somebody. It was like in that in the
past six months, I'd say I essentially have taken everything
that I believe, everything that I've been taught, everything that
I have taught and disassembled it like a like a pen,

(16:30):
you know, you like unscrew it and you take apart
all the pieces in the spring and everything, and like
look at the pieces and like see how they fit
back together. Like that's essentially like what I had to do.
I had to disassemble everything that I believe, everything that
I've been taught, and like, Okay, what do I actually
believe and what have I been told to believe? And

(16:51):
so like examining each part of everything and seeing how
it all fits together and whether or not I think
it's worth it to day. And that was hard and
I it was a lot of crying and pain and
writing about it.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Confusion.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
It was so confusing because like I was born in
the church, like my ancestors on both sides of my
family go back to the pioneers, Like I have deep
roots in the church, and I just and then going
on a mission, and my parents like expect me to
stay and expect me to do great things, and like

(17:30):
it was all of this pressure and this if I left,
it would be a complete change in identity and way
of life. Oh absolutely, I don't.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
I probably seemed like a lot of work. I kind
of I think about that sometimes I think were you?
You were there when I talked about the research that
I've been doing, right, yeah, and I what you were
saying about dissembling things. A lot of people talk about
deconstructing their beliefs, and they kind of have to deconstruct
who they are to rebuild who they are. It's kind

(17:59):
of crazy, but it's true that the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
of a lot of saints is kind of every aspect
of who you are. You grow up singing I am
a child of God. And so to decide to leave,
you suddenly have to reevaluate what you do believe. And
it sounds like you did that, but then you decided
to stay.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
So why I think part of it was actually, I
think the biggest thing of it was all of the
thinking that I had to do was like, Okay, what
do I believe? What have I truly witnessed? What have
I been like? What are the answers that I've received
for myself? And what are the things that I disagree with?

(18:42):
What are the things that are just cultural sayings? And
what is true doctrine and all of that. And there
was this amazing book that my brother gave me for Christmas,
in the midst of my reconstruction of faith, he gave
me this book for Christmas called All Things New by
Taro and Fiona Gibbons. I haven't read all of it.

(19:04):
I've read only a couple of chapters, and it's seriously
changed so much because they talk about that. They talk
about like the necessity of a restoration and like what
truly got corrupted. And the doctrine that has stood up
with me the most is just the doctrine of the
literal parenthood of God.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
And like us being his literal offspring.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, and the and I think what stood out to
me the most was how they talked about like in
Genesis Adam and Eva being created, or Adam and Eve
a created in the image of God, both male and female,
and that being like a clear distinction of God is
heavenly Father and heavenly Mother connected. They are inextricably connected

(19:55):
and never can be separated. And thatught me so much comfort.
Like I remember just crying on like Christmas, streaming this
and being like, oh my gosh, I had a heave
any mother who loves me. And it was like it
was the small spiritual like moments, moments and little nudges

(20:18):
that really kept me going and kept me from giving up,
because everything in me wanted to give up. But then
there were those like those sparks of light where it's
like it felt like somebody was looking out for me.
It felt like God sent you to send me those
messages to or or to say hi or I remember

(20:40):
really being really stressed about money, and then I was
I came across some more money, and like, I stopped
paying my tithing, and so I can't be like, oh,
there's a tithing blessing, like as everybody does. And so
like I had turned my back on on God and
putting in the effort that I had been taught to
put in, and yet God had not stopped putting an

(21:04):
effort to know me, to chase me. And it was
over the past few months that I've truly learned what
Elder Kieran said when he said God is in relentless
pursuit of you. And I felt that in the depths
of my confusion, in the depths of my doubt, in

(21:26):
the depths of wanting to run away and become someone new,
I couldn't run away from him.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
I'm shedding tears over here because I'm just thinking about
literally everything's going through my mind, but I was thinking specifically.
I mean, you probably remember when I brought you that
note and the little thing. Oh yeah, at what point
in time did I give that to you? Does that
make sense? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, that was the summer that was before all of this,
but that was like the big that was the beginning
of the big trial that I was going through. That
really made me. I don't know, trials ten to question
bring you down because they're so hard and they're like, God,
why are you doing this to me? Why haven't you
made this easier to understand and get through. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
I just remember bearing my testimony and while I was
up there, I just like looked at you and I
just knew. I don't know how to describe it, and
I don't know. I just was like, nope, like she
needs something. And so anyway, not that I'm trying to
bring this to me, I just think it is really
cool to look back and be like, oh my gosh,
I got to be part of that that relentless pursue,

(22:32):
and I think that's really cool. So I was curious
in deciding to stay what role did scripture study and
prayer and decisions like that play, Like what factor did
those decisions play?

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Honestly, I don't know that they really did play a role.
Because I stopped praying, I stopped reading my scriptures. Like
I still went to church, but it was because I
felt like I would draw more attention to myself if
I stopped going, and so I would like almost became
afraid to pray, like to tell God like if he

(23:08):
was there and like if he was gonna listen, and
because I've had experiences in the past where it felt
like an answer to my prayers, but then I've also
had really shattering experiences where I've prayed and it felt
like he wasn't listening or he's answered my prayer to

(23:29):
my detriment. It felt like like he gave me exactly
what I asked for, but it was not the right
answer at least. Oh okay, well I can't say that
that's almost blasphemy. But like I learned the lesson and everything,
but it was a painful lesson and I didn't know
I was asking for pain, and so like I almost

(23:51):
became scared of asking, of asking for things in general,
of like, oh who am I? Like I've turned my
back on God, Who am I to ask him for?
Who am I to you know, reach out when I've
turned my back and betrayed him? And then yeah, and
just like what if I pour my heart out to him?
What if I have like one of these big prayers

(24:13):
that you have like every once in a while where
you're just like God, I don't know what's going on
and he doesn't say a thing. And that fear kept
me from doing that. And so I felt like my
faith journey I had to do on my own. I
had to figure it out on my own and what
I thought and felt and believe on my own. And

(24:36):
if there's anybody who is going through a faith crisis,
or you know, anybody, like I say, don't judge the
way that they're handling it. Don't think that there is
a best way to do it. Because I wasn't speaking
to God directly, but I needed him to speak to
me indirectly.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, I was gonna say, it sounds to me like
you might not have been praying out loud, but you
still had a prayer in your heart and correct me
if I'm wrong, But that sounds I mean, it sounds
like when you're saying I couldn't pray to God because
I felt like I betrayed him. That almost could count
as a prayer, if that makes sense. Possibly, I know
that's my opinion. Anyway, I feel like it doesn't have

(25:17):
to be Dear Heavenly Father for us to be crying
out to him, you know, I think we can. We're
praying in through our tears sometimes, and honestly, I feel
like it's an act of faith to even ponder and
question all this, you know, like some people just give
up and going through that thought process and all that pain,
God was like, there's no way I'm giving up on her,

(25:39):
you know. Yeah, were you in church when I talked
about the one friend that I like shared about how
she left or like.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Goes to see I think he seems familiar. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
I've been trying to find a place to share it,
and I don't know if now's the right time because
I want to hear from you and not me. But
one of these days I want to do an episode
about it, and then I will ask for a permission
or whatever. But I just know from personal experience that
it's really hard when you have a really good relationship
with someone and then they no longer talk to you.
And it's almost too painful to give up on that,
And so I can kind of see where God's coming from.

(26:12):
Of like, no, Aurora is one of my really strong disciples.
I'm not going to give up on her yet, not
even yet yet. It's a stupid word, but I'm not
going to give up on her. And I refuse to
give up on her. I love what you've had to share.
This is kind of random without giving you a question.
Is there something I'm missing? I feel like I feel
like we jumped over something. Was there something that you

(26:33):
wanted to do?

Speaker 2 (26:33):
Sure? This, I could talk about this for a long time,
and I also feel like I'm missing something. Let me think,
do you want me.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
To just pause it?

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, I feel like we've gone on tangents. But if
anyone knows me, I absolutely love tangents and I'm obsessed
with them. So to bring things back because I honestly
feel like the spirit works through tangents. I'm not gonna
lie because how many times the teachers come to class
or speakers come to the pulpit and they're like, so
I had something planned and then anyway, okay, speaking of tangents. Okay,

(27:01):
So my next one of my questions that I'm curious
about is looking back, what do you think was the
turning point that made you choose to stay? And then
in addition, did you have any personal revelations or experiences
during this time that helped guide you to stay?

Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah? Yeah, shout out to my boyfriend. He was like
super supportive, like through it all, Like I confided in
him and was able to share a lot with him,
and just everything that I've been thinking and the debate
in my mind like going back and forth, like stay leave,
stay leave. And he and a friend were working on

(27:36):
there's a return missionary devotional at the seminar whatever at
the seminar, yeahah, And so he and his friend were
working on that, and he just like invited me to
come to the meetings, just like to spend time together.
And they were talking about Gospels things and obviously and
I was just like sitting in the back. I was like, okay, yeah,
like I'll just stay out of this. I'll just like

(27:57):
be in the background. But like as they were talking,
there were like in the midst of my bitterness and
hatred for the Gospel, I was just like, oh, like
something just like brought me in and I was like, oh,
I love to talk about this. So like there were
there've always been like a few doctrines that have just
like touched my heart and made me like feel connected

(28:19):
to God of just like the hope of renewal and
the hope of being bound to Him. To God is
just like that safety and like forgiveness, like those things
have always been really just fill me with a lot
of hope. And so those are the ones that I
couldn't like go love and I was like okay anyway,
So they'd have their conversations. I'd sit in the background,

(28:41):
and like there were little times where I'd just like
chime in. I'd be like, oh, like have you ever
thought about it like this? Like I I love to
do that. I love to take a different angle on things.
And so that was super fun because then we'd have
they'd include me in the conversation then and then slowly
and so like I just I'd talk more and more
and we'd converse more, learn more about gospel things, and
then it just reminded me of the pure doctrines that

(29:06):
I love. And funny enough, the seminar was all about covenants,
like my one trigger topic or just one of the
that like would always fill me with anger because like,
I just have this hunger, this craving for a deeper conversation,
a more applicable conversation about covenance. We know what a

(29:27):
covenant is, how does it help me? And let's talk
about that deeply, Let's talk about that specifically. And so
in that conversation they also felt the same way. They
were like, we want to talk. We want to have
the conversation about covenants that you always wish you had,
like in Sunday School or in Elvis Corn or really
set or whatever. That gave me an outlet to really

(29:49):
truly think about what do I believe, what do I think?
And gave me hope that I could be an agent
of change in the ways that I want to see,
in the ways of progress that I want to see,
the things that I think need to grow up in
the Gospel, like our conversation about covenants. My biggest takeaway

(30:11):
from all of that was just that covenants are not
separate from God and Jesus Christ. Like I love the
phrase covenantal relationship, Like I can't think about covenants on
their own. They don't exist in a vacuum, they don't
exist as some like spiritual glue between God and me.
Like it's it's a relationship. It is God reaching out

(30:36):
to me, it is me reaching out to God. And
that relationship evolves and changes over time, and that is okay,
And like I feel like that's just what I've seen
so prominently in my life over the past few months
as I've deconstructed everything. It's just covenant relationships.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
So you'd say going to those RM seminars is kind
of the turning point.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
I'd say, like it was the It wasn't necessarily going
to the ARMS seminar, but it was the project of
preparing things to share because it just gave me time
to ponder on like the the main like things that
make this church different from other churches. It is that

(31:21):
covenantal relationship. It is that unique love that God has
for his covenant children and that strength as well.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, I think that's really good. I honestly don't have
anything to add. Sorry, Okay, So I love everything that
you've had to share. I'm curious looking forward in what
ways has considering leaving the church, so that whole journey
and deconstructing everything and looking at what you believe strengthened
your faith or change the way you view your relationship

(31:52):
with God. I would you say it strengthen your faith.
I guess we should start.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
I think we should start there.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
I so, actually I don't feel like faith.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
So actually I'm still leaving. Yeah no, I don't think
I'm leaving anymore. Like I'm still healing, I'm still growing,
I'm still learning to trust God again. I'm still learning
how to participate and to grow my relationship with God.
Like I'm not perfect, I'm still on my journey. But
I think I think taking the time to deconstruct what

(32:28):
I truly believe and what I've been told to believe
and just doing an analysis like that was so helpful
for me because then it like put my my beliefs
and thoughts and faith on trial and was like, Okay,
is this real or have I just been told to
believe something? Or do I just feel pressured to stay?

(32:51):
And like, yeah, I did feel pressured to stay. But ultimately,
I'm sharing this experience because I want to, because I
think it's important to have empathy for those people who
faith does not come easy to them, or they're in
a situation where like faith is hard or they just
don't believe.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, that's a perfect question or segue. So if someone
else was struggling or right now is going through a
similar struggle, what advice would you give them?

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Have empathy for yourself personally. I think what I wanted
to hear I needed to hear in that time was
just to be patient with myself. And that's the advice
that I would give, is just be patient with yourself.
And I felt like I was in this place where
I needed to make a decision right now, and I

(33:42):
felt so much pressure to make a decision to stay
or leave, or to make any big decision like right then.
I was like, I this discomfort. I can't sit with it.
I need to resolve it somehow. I need to make
a decision. But I didn't have enough information to make
a decision. I didn't have enough either way. And so
I like my coworker, she was like she's left the church,

(34:06):
but she was like, yeah, you don't need to make
a decision right now. You you just need to sit
with it and learn and figure out what you want
and what you need to do. And I that's what
I would say to somebody else. I'd say, I just
be patient with yourself. You don't need to make a
decision right now, just figure it out, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
I feel like that takes some of the pressure off.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
It's not a race, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I like that.
And I think like faith is such an interesting concept.
Like we talk about faith in the church as like
I don't know, like in primary like faith is like
a little seed and we like we'll read Alma thirty
two and talk about faith like that way. But I

(34:52):
I remember being in a lesson on my mission and
my companion and I were like, hey, we got teach
this person about faith, and so we're like, we'll just
read Alma thirty two. And I was in that lesson
We're reading from Alma thirty two, and I was like, bro,
this is not about faith. This is about discerning truth.
And that was super useful for me, like from that

(35:14):
point of just like, Okay, so if this chapter is
about discerning truth, then I can use this as a template,
an outline or whatever to help me understand if something
is true, then it's good and it helps me and
it expands my knowledge. So that was like a big
thing that I thought about during all of this was

(35:34):
just like Okay, so what is faith then? If it's
not a seed, then what is it? And so I
remember just pondering, and I have this note in my
phone about it. But the time stamp of this is
like two.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
In the morning, and that's when I do all my
writing too.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
I yeah, I'm just gonna read some of it, okay, okay, yeah,
So this is like in the midst of it all,
I was like, faith cannot be even with logic. I
thought if I found the missing piece, the bit of
scripture of proof, that it would make all my doubts
go away, and that I would finally rest. I wouldn't
be at war with myself anymore. My parents believe, my

(36:13):
older leaders believe. Some of my friends still believe. My
church leaders would die for the cause if they felt
they needed to. And you have these conversations with yourself
where you go, well, if she believes, then I can believe.
But that only lasts until the next time the doubts
come back, and so faith cannot be sustained by someone else.
I believe that faith is not a substance. It's not

(36:35):
a possession, it's not a prize, it's not a seed.
Faith is not a perfect knowledge. Faith is not a battery,
it's not a tank. Faith above all else, is a choice.
Faith is I don't know if this is right, but
I want to know what is right. Faith is courage,
it's curiosity. Faith is an open mind. It's a step forward,

(36:57):
it's a glance inward. Faith is looking behind you or
giving it another try. I truly believe that. I think
we talk about faith in a way that's not helpful
for people who are struggling with faith. Like when you're
doing great, you're like, oh, yeah, I have so much faith.
Like faith is like I'm fine, Like I'm great. But
when you're struggling, there's a lot of shame that can

(37:19):
go with it, where you're like, I just wish I
had more faith. Why can't Why don't I have more faith?
Why can't I be more like them? Why can't I? Like,
because faith is not something that someone gives you. Faith
is not it's not something that grows. Like I truly
believe that faith is a choice. Having faith is a choice,
and it takes a lot of courage, and it takes

(37:42):
what was the other thing that I said, I lost
my train of love. But it's it's a lot of
curiosity too, of like, what is true? What can I believe?
What can I trust?

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, so a couple more things. How do you see
your faith growing or what you believe? You're your choice
to believe growing moving forward after such a pivotal moment
in your life.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
I think going back to the basics of like, is
there even a God? Why do I need a savior?
Going back to the basics of like, anything that's basic
to you, anything that's foundational to you, is important because
then you can grow or build upon that. I mean,

(38:26):
and that has what That's what I've been doing is
I've I went back to the basics. I started all
the way over in my mind anyway, and went from there.
And having a strong foundation is truly important. Having a
good skeleton to put other things on, you know, is great.

(38:47):
And what I've been doing and it seems to be working.
And I have a lot more trust in God now
that he will lead me and that he won't give
up on me. And that feeling of not being alone,
and that feeling of knowing that I don't have to
I don't have to do it alone. I don't have
to deconstruct my faith alone. Like all of that has

(39:12):
given me the confidence to move forward and to see
if other things are true as well. If that makes
any sense, it does.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
I really appreciate how honest you've been, and I feel
like it's needed. I wish more people would talk about
how they truly have felt. I don't necessarily think everyone
needs to deconstruct their faith to find out what they believe,
but for those who think really deeply, maybe that is
what's necessary.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
For me personally, I have such a strong testimony in
the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I just I want
others to experience that joy and that happiness. But I
understand that there's so many difficult things, and I mean
I haven't I've had my own struggles with different things.
And so with all of this, with all of your honest,

(40:00):
with everything that you've shared, why did you stay ultimately? Like,
what do you believe?

Speaker 2 (40:07):
I honestly and truly believe that it was God alone
who kept me here, and it wasn't because like I
had done anything. It was simply because of who God is.
I believe that God is real, and I believe that
I have not just a heavenly father, but a heavenly

(40:29):
Mother who look out for me constantly, who listen to
every single prayer that I have, whether or not it's
vocal or not. Like we've talked about, like, I truly
and honestly believe that I believe in a God who
is all just intimately aware of every single one of
his children, and truly in relentless pursuit of them and

(40:52):
their happiness. And I believe in the comforting power of
Jesus Christ. And I have felt them intimately in my
life in my lowest moments and in some of my
happiest moments as well. And I feel like I understand
the parable of the prodigal son now of just like

(41:16):
God was my anchor point like he never left, he
never went anywhere, and He was there for me through
it all. And I believe in the power of a
covenantal relationship. I believe that these covenantal relationships that we
have grow and evolve with us. And I have seen

(41:42):
my covenant relationship with God changed a lot over the
past few years. Before my mission, I am I was scared,
I'm anxious and but willing and duty bound, and so
I went on my mission. And then on my mission,
I was a willing servant who felt strengthened and comforted
by God. And then I've come home and there have

(42:04):
been times where I have felt absolutely alone, but those
moments did not last because God is there and that's
what I believe.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
I think those are solid things. So then personal question here,
as if all the other ones haven't been why the
Gospel of Jesus Christ of Lotter day Saints.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
It's because of the Book of Mormon. I've studied that
book so much. If you look at my multiple copies,
like they are written in and highlighted, and there's so
many notes in my gospel library, app like I've prayed
about it many times. I've followed its teachings, and the

(42:48):
Book of Mormon has unfolded the nature of God and
the nature of the Savior in ways that I have
not found anywhere else. And those times when the Spirit
has spoken to me and I have felt enlightened, and

(43:09):
I feel like I understand and I feel closer, like
I can't deny those moments that have happened over and
over again. And that was one of the biggest things
that I was grappling with. It was just like, I've
had these moments, but now I feel so alone and
so what's going on? Like I want to hold on
to these moments of like I feel like this is revelation.

(43:30):
I feel like this is like the spirit a message
from God. Yeah, I've never been able to deny those experiences.
I've never been able to look away from those because
it wasn't because somebody convinced me to feel that way.
It wasn't because I was coerced ory. It wasn't like
I just it was my own curiosity. It was my

(43:50):
own seeking that brought me to those conclusions. It was
my own open mind and willing to hear yes or no,
you know, And so that those experiences and just feeling
like I understand God better, a loving heavenly Father better.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
So you'd say the Book of Mormon is a big
reason why you still believe? If not, the reason is
not because I know a lot of people will leave
the church, but then they still are religious or whatever.
And it sounds like a lot of the main parts
of your testimony are connected to God and things like that.
So I was curious, like what made you stay in

(44:34):
the Church of Jesus Christ to why did you know?
Because it's different. So, yeah, well I'm going to give
you the final word. Is there anything you'd like anyone
to hear? I try to pretend that I'm speaking to
the One, even though I know multiple people are listening.
So is there anything you feel like the One needs
to hear?

Speaker 2 (44:53):
It's just my motto, it gets better, no matter what
that means, no matter what you have to get through,
it does get better. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming
on and sharing your heart than you just cracking it
open and letting it still out. I have not personally
been through a faith crisis where I ever considered leaving,
just like personally myself, but I've definitely experienced different things

(45:24):
that we're heartbreaking and heart wrenching and confusing and conflicting,
and I feel like being real about the emotions we
feel is super important. And although we go through different things,
it's really important that we're honest because that's like the
essence of who we are as human beings. You know,
there's not a cookie cutter path, and sometimes I think

(45:45):
we pretend there is. There's not. In sharing your story,
I appreciate how vulnerable and honest you were, so.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Thank you, Thank you. I agree with what you're saying
of like being open and honest, like that's always what
I try and do because it is something that my
brother said. He was we were having a good conversation
and he was talking about his grievances as well, and
he was saying like, if we like, how are we
supposed to mourn with those that mourn? If we don't

(46:13):
mourn out loud, like, if we don't let others in,
if we don't be honest that life sucks, then how
can we help one another? How can we be our
brother's keeper or a good neighbor or anything. And so
it's just I try to live as authentically as I can,
and I try and be that, I don't know, open

(46:34):
invitation to let other people do the same.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
I was gonna say one last thing, I love her.
I'm like, you're having the final word, and then I
add things. So I'm sorry, but I was just thinking,
in your story and in the stories that I've been
learning about with my research, it's really important and it's
really clear to me that we have no idea where
people are at with their testimony when they show up
to church each week, not even a clue. And I
think sometimes when we see people at church, we just

(46:57):
assume they're strong, We've got them in the back. But
it's kind of what goes through my mind, like, oh,
I don't need to worry about them because they're at church.
A lot tells me focused on the inactive members, But
there are a lot of people struggling, people struggling souls
at church that could use the smile, that could use
the reaching out, Because just because you're going to church

(47:20):
doesn't mean that your testimony is a foundational you know,
built upon a rock, right, you know, it could be
wobbling a little bit and there's nothing wrong with that
and not just assume that because they're at church they believe.
If that makes sense, I agree, you know, so I
don't know. That's kind of in my mind one of
the reasons I share if I'm in Sunday School or

(47:40):
relief Society. Sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, people are
tired of hearing from me or whatever, and I try
not to share like the same whatever, because I think,
who knows who is sitting here right now, that maybe
one sentence that I say could mean something. And I'm
not saying that from an egotistical point of view at all.
I just mean I think each of our each of
our experiences, and yeah, I just wish we would we

(48:02):
would share those from apart from the place that we
come from, you know.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Okay, now now you can have the final word. Anything
else you want to say, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
I can't. I don't know, Okay, I don't think.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
So perfect Well, thank you all so much for listening.
Don't forget to embrace the perfection, find meaning, satisfaction and
joy from the journey.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
I'm Kira and I'm Aurora, and.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
This is imperfectly broken. The podcast
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