Capturing Reality: Luc Forsyth on the Art and Risk of Documentary Filmmaking

In this episode of Indie Filmmaking: Truth & Reality, Jeff Everett welcomes cinematographer and documentarian Luc Forsyth to discuss his unconventional path into filmmaking. Luc shares how his early years traveling and working as a photojournalist shaped his eye, eventually leading him into high-risk documentary work across Southeast Asia, Mexico, and beyond.

The conversation explores the realities behind documentary cinematography—how the craft relies less on perfect gear and more on instinct, access, adaptability, and the ability to build trust in challenging environments. Luc breaks down the differences between narrative and documentary shooting, explaining why he prefers the unpredictability of real-world moments over controlled sets.

Luc also opens up about the dangers of covering cartel territories, the experience that forced him to step back, and how he rebuilt his career after moving home during the pandemic. He explains how his YouTube channel became both a creative outlet and a way to regain control of his career while sharing practical industry knowledge.

This episode offers a grounded look at the craft, mindset, and resilience required to thrive as a documentary filmmaker today.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to Indie Filmmaking Truth and Reality.

(00:03):
I'm your host, Jeff Deverett, and today we have a
very special guest, Luke Forsyth, who is a cinematographer, a documentarian,
makes great documentaries and he's a big YouTube celebrity and
podcaster and I've watched tons of his stuff and he's
going to give us a wealth of information today, not

(00:25):
just about how to make great documentaries and be a
good cinematographer, but just about the film business in general.
So hang on to your seats is going to be
a great episode. If you want to be a successful
indie filmmaker, you need to know a lot about not
just the production of movies, but the business. We are
going to tell you the truth and reality of what

(00:47):
really happens in the indie film business. Luke Forsyth, Welcome
to the show. It's great to have you. I appreciate
you taking the time to be a guest. I've watched
lots and lots of your videos on YouTube, and I've
been on your website. And I'm not a documentary filmmaker myself.

(01:08):
I make narrative films, but I'm always interested in documentary,
so let's start with just tell us a little bit
about yourself. You've traveled the world, you're still in Toronto.
I'm formally from Toronto. I didn't know you then, but
you've had quite the adventuresome life so far. So just
can you give us a brief introduction of who you
are and where you've been and what you've done.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, thanks, Jeff. I was originally born in Toronto, but
I actually grew up in a small town outside Stratford.
If you're familiar with sure, justin Lady, Yeah, justin Bieber
and Shakespearean Festival. So kind of an unusual place for
a documentary filmmaker to come from, sort of thirty thousand
people in the middle of pig farming country. And yeah,
I never intended to do any of this stuff. I

(01:50):
finished university with a literature degree and then went off
to basically just backpack was my main intention. I just
wanted to travel, so I spent several years kind of
bumming around Australia and Southeast Asia, and then I got
a job as an English teacher and this took me
well into my late twenties, and I still hadn't really
done anything with cameras and then I saw a documentary

(02:11):
war photographer. While I was in a bit of an
existential moment of dread, realizing I wasn't born to be
an ESL teacher, not sure what I was going to do,
saw the documentary war photographer and decided, I'm going to
go become a photojournalist. So I bought an old camera
and spent a couple of years building a portfolio, and
then eventually moved to Cambodia, where I set up and

(02:34):
worked as a photojournalist for a number of years for
big international publications like The New York Times and Al Jazeera.
And then I decided kind of I was ready to
move a little closer to home, to a little bit
of a bigger market. And I also saw industry trends
in news changing a lot, and the photojournalism career that

(02:56):
I sort of wanted for myself wasn't really an option.
So I slowly transitioned into motion and it was a
pretty natural transition as a photojournalist to go into documentaries.
From there, I just learned the same sort of skills
but with motion and audio and went from there. Because

(03:17):
I was in Mexico, for better or for worse, I
became known as a guy, one of the go to
guys who would cover drug violence and immigration and a
lot of those stories. So I worked on a lot
of those sort of narco documentaries that you might have
seen floating around Netflix or wherever.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, I saw with that woman filmmaker I forget her name,
the Marianna Vanseller.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was actually my first ever TV job.
I just moved to Mexico and I was transitioning from
photo to documentary and national geographic. Flew down to shoot
a show on production Heroin Production and their becam operator
fell out of a truck and broke his leg. And
my friend was the was the fixer on that production,

(04:02):
and he said, well, it's an emergency. I know this guy,
he doesn't have a ton of experience, but he'll probably
come and he'll be down to work on this kind
of story. So they brought me in and I kind
of lied my way into saying I knew how to
use the camera. We've since joked about it, but yeah,
I was extremely unqualified for that job and just sort
of you know, we talk about lucky break stories.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
It was literally I know, but not everybody wants to
film drug card tells. I mean you had to figure
you're taking a little risk, aren't you.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well yeah, I mean I remember I came into all
media because of a documentary called War Photographer. So I
for me at that point in my life, at that age,
that's what I wanted. I was. That wasn't that was
a bonus for me. That was you know, that was
something I wanted to do. Now, you know, since I've
gotten older and I pushed that side of the industry

(04:51):
quite far. It actually it almost killed me. I you know,
half of my film crew got shot up. So now
I would say something very different. But when I was
at that age, really ambitious and hungry to get bigger opportunities,
and you know, my career as a DP was advancing,
the risk was like I didn't really think about any
of it. I was just excited to have the gig.

(05:12):
And obviously that is not what I would recommend to
someone else.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
But it's well, different stages in life, right, different different times.
So what brought you back to Toronto?

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Like I said, I did the cartel stuff for three
almost four years and got by the last year and
a half two years, I was really into it. We
were taking some really big risks, and eventually that led
to one night we were filming in a national geographic
show in Warez, which, if you know anything about Warez
is sort of one of the more dangerous cities in

(05:45):
the world. And we were just sort of in the
wrong place at the wrong time setting up an interview
and we got caught in the middle of ambush. We
were interviewing some narcos and they got hit by another
group and we were there, and so they just sort
of opened fire into the room and all spury the details,
but three out of the seven people that we were with,

(06:07):
including crew, got shot it and we ended up getting
away and it was you know, mostly worked out okay.
Mostly I didn't get shot. My cameraon tripod did take
a bunch of hits, my director got hit, and the
guy we were interviewing, you know, big mess. It was
reported in the New York Times and the LA Times,
big international incident. And after that, I just thought, I

(06:29):
have to get out of this. Well, I've been thinking
for a couple of years, you know, it was starting
to get really go really deep into this criminal underworld,
and I was thinking this is not going to end
up good for me. So I'd been thinking about it,
and then that event happened and I just decided, you
got to be done now or because this isn't worth
it isn't worth dying for right right?

Speaker 1 (06:50):
But why Toronto you had Because that was.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
When that happened, I actually moved back to Vancouver, which
I have no roots at all in, and just thought
I'd give it a try. I'd been out of Canada
for so long that I didn't have any contacts outside
of my family really anywhere, certainly not professionally, so I
just thought, fresh slate, let's try Vancouver. But after a

(07:13):
few years, it's just what I like to do for
work and what that industry out there is making and
a few things, it just wasn't for me, and so
I came back to Toronto, maybe almost three years ago.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Now right now, you I'm sure a lot of people
know you from your YouTube channel and your presence. You
know on the internet. You specialize obviously in documentaries, but
you call yourself a cinematographer, and I love a lot
of the stuff that you said, Like I just recently
watched an interview with you and your friend Mark, who
also you know the art of documentary. Him and you

(07:46):
guys were talking about equipment, and I loved your honesty saying,
you know, the equipment sort of matters, but it's the
person using the equipment that really matters. And you kind
of likened it to sports equipment also, you know, like
I got, I play a lot of golf, and I
always say, you know, I wish that a good set
of golf clubs could make me a better golfer, but
it doesn't, you know, and a bad golfer can use

(08:07):
any clubs. You guys were talking about lenses and cameras,
So let's just talk about cinematography for a second, because
the way you describe it, I am not a cinematographer.
I come from the business side of the industry.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
You know.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
I have a lot of agree in a business degree,
and I came in through distribution, so I didn't come
in through the artistic side that you came in through.
But you and I both agree that the art of
filmmaking is all about storytelling, and you know, about choosing
sort of the right story and telling it the right way,
and you know, cinematography. I interviewed another cinematographer, the guy
who shoots most of my movies, but he's he specialized

(08:43):
in narrative, not documentary. So can you just talk about
sort of the art of cinematography and really what a
good cinematographer needs to focus on. Again, I've heard it
so many times on your channel, but I just want
you to share it with my audience.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Well, I mean I should say that I've been calling
myself a cinemata since way before I really had any
right to call myself a cinematographer. I've actually never been
too precious about I'm not really an artiste, if that
makes sense. Like, I like, what I like coming from
a photojournalism background is getting to experience unusual, interesting, rare events,

(09:23):
important events, and then communicate that with other people. And
that's my I just that process of being somewhere witnessing
something and then sharing it is something for whatever reason
I really like and I love doing it in photos,
and I was able to transition to doing it in video.
And I'm also doing an MFA and creative writing, which

(09:45):
is just really an extension of the same thing. So
when I started calling myself a cinematographer, I could not
even light an interview. In fact, because I was willing
to take such big risks, I was often getting jobs
that were way above what I would have gone and
if I was coming up through the normal ranks. You know,
my first job is for National Geographic, and you know,

(10:06):
within a year I was shooting on you know, Emmy
award winning Showtime shows as like a unit DP operating alone.
And uh, you know, I remember I was really good
because of my photojournalism background. I was really good at
covering action. I was really good at framing and light.
I understood all the principles of photography. I was really
good with people, but I had no technical skills as

(10:28):
a cinematographer. So part of that shoot was to cover
this big political protest and this funeral and some verite stuff,
and then there was an interview and I remember, you know,
I set up this interview without any knowledge really of lighting,
and it was in retrospect so bad that the producer
actually called me and he was like, look, I don't
know what to say. You're verite footage is incredible. We're

(10:50):
going to build a ten minute sequence out of this,
but this interview is one hundred percent unusable, Like what
were you thinking? And you know, so to I feel like, now,
eight nine years later, I've actually caught up to what
I've been calling myself, Like I have learned how to
actually mostly through working with people better than me, what

(11:12):
actual cinematography is all about. But in the beginning, the
whole point was to be the witness guy with the camera,
and I just chose cinematographer because I thought it would
distinguish me from videographer, which would get me more work.
So there was a lot of fake it to you
make it involved in my path. So you know, like
I said, no film school, So I don't want to

(11:33):
pretend that this was some you know, careful plan to
be an artist cinematographer. It just all kind of turned
out that way because of the way I'm wired. But
in documentary specifically, like I can't speak to other mediums,
but in documentary, the technical side of it is kind
of a small portion of the job. It needs to
look good, right, you need you need to be good

(11:56):
at the photography part of it, and you need to
know how to shoot, and you need you know good framing,
and you need to know how to light quick. But
the opportunity to like, you have such a limited opportunity
to put those techniques into practice that you're not ever
calling up a ten ton truck, you know, with a

(12:16):
full lighting team to get in there and prep your location.
So it's a lot more quick and dirty. And I'd
almost think that for doc you'd have better luck as
a cinematographer training as a photo journalist than you would
as a traditional cinematographer, because a lot of your job is, yes,
can you shoot? Can you make a great frame with

(12:39):
available light? But also can you get yourself in the
position to get that shot right?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Can you do it in the moment when you're getting
shot at well?

Speaker 2 (12:47):
And yeah? Can you also are you the type of
person who can socially engineer yourself into that environment? To
begin with? Are you comfortable driving into a place where
you don't speak the language, you don't know anybody you
know it's extremely dangerous subject matter, and then convincing strangers

(13:07):
to let you film intimate details of their lives and
play it all over the world, right like you. There's
a lot of social dynamics that go into that, because
if you can get two feet away from if you're
any good at photography at all, and you can get
two feet away from someone doing something incredible and you
have a decent modern camera, you'll get interesting stuff. So

(13:31):
there's degrees to that. I don't want to say that
like any put anybody in that situation. There's degrees to that.
And when you see someone who's been shooting for a
long time and is really good, the documentaries look better,
they feel more immersive, all that stuff. But if you're not,
if you can't physically get that camera into a place
that isn't a sound stage, you know, if you can't

(13:52):
actually get yourself in the position to get the shots,
then there's no show anyways. So when I talk to
people about getting into doc I feel like a lot
of people are focusing on different stuff. You know, they
want to know about here and if they should do
certain degrees and you know, all this stuff. But really
it's like, have you shown a demonstrated interest and ability

(14:13):
to be out there in the world and to shoot photograph,
you know, shoot strangers because it's a lot harder in
some ways than shooting an actor, because the actor knows
you're there.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
I would say, I would say it's way harder. The
actors paid to do what take your direction and do
whatever you ask them to do.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, the flip the flip side of that is that
when you're shooting the actor, it better look incredible, which
means you better be dialed in in terms of, like,
you know, you really better know how to work with
that crew and get the most out of the actor.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
But you're in a totally controlled environment, whereas in documentary
filmmaking it's totally uncontrolled. Mostly I would say, like I
got to say, documentary filmmaking terrifies me. It honestly it does.
Like I've thought about it many many times. I mean,
I've made nine narratives and it's all a controlled environment. Yeah,
or their challenge is sure, But when I think about
documentary filmmaking, it literally is terrifying inserting yourself into situations

(15:07):
with all strangers who don't speak the same language, and
sometimes you know, dangerous situations. I see all the nature
stuff that you do. You're wearing these waiters, you're in
freezing cold water, that's snowing, all this stuff that goes
on that you guys deal with to try to get
a shot that you might not get.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, but that's the part I like though. That's the thing,
you know, that's that's the interesting part for me. I lose.
It's why I'm a bad editor, is because once I've
had the experience and gotten the footage and sent it off.
I'm I'm not that interested in the rest of the process.
A lot of the time. Occasionally I'll come on to
a project where I really just love the idea and
I really stick with it from start to finish. But

(15:45):
part of the reason why being a DP works for
me is because I come in, I get to be
there at the moment and experience the whole story and
do everything I can to capture it. Then I can
kind of walk away.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
So that's the thrill for you, is is the moment
of capturing that footage and kind of overcoming that challenge
of just being in the right place, right time and
there and and managing that situation.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
It's just it's so stimulating. I don't know how to
describe it except that, like because you can't repeat anything.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
No, you get it. It's these are one takes, basically, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
So you're it's it's very full on mental exercise, and uh,
when you get pretty good at it, it's it's it's
it's always stressful, but it's I don't know, I find
it a very satisfying intellectual exercise like this and also this, this,
this aspect of creative problem solving because you never have

(16:40):
all the tools, right, Like, we just did a fairly
large doc shoot, but our grip package compared to what
you'd see on a set, is nothing. And then you're
trying to dream up all these crazy shots that that
you want to get, Like we wanted a long steady
cam running sequence at sunset, and we're like, well, we're
never getting any of those things, so what can we do. Well,

(17:02):
we can rent a fat tire e bike and put
my ac on the back with a gimbal and drive
it around in the park. And like, so you're you're
trying to you're trying to solve big crewer. You're trying
to get high concept creative art with minimal resources and
constantly finding weird solutions to cheat the fact that there's

(17:25):
just four or five of you there sometimes just one
or two. Yeah, And I really like that, I think,
you know if I like, I never I never intended
to go into film, you know. I was a kind
of a nomad for a long time, just trying to
live as cheaply as possible, and then you know, photojournalism
and then this stuff. It's it's really been the my

(17:47):
interest in communicating experiences that has held me to this
job rather than trying to make that flawless frame. And briefly,
you know, my dad would a narrative screenwriter in Canada
quite you know, he won a couple of Gemini Awards,
So like quite nationally famous in Canada. I guess I

(18:09):
should say, which is like being famous in Wyoming?

Speaker 1 (18:13):
I guess no?

Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, no. Anyways, the point is I grew up in
the traditional around the traditional industry, right, so when I
at a certain point, I thought I might like to
try some narrative stuff because I love movies. I have
so much respect. You know, when I watch a beautiful
piece of cinematography, I'm so inspired. And so I at
one point actually called in some family connections, and you know,

(18:37):
nepoed my way onto a set through an old friend
of my dad who got me a fake position as
the assistant to the DP, which was just a minimum
wage job designed to allow me to be on set
and try and learn.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
Do you remember what the project was.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, it was a CBC show. It was a spin
off of Murdoch Mysteries. It was a period sort of
like a Canadian slock home set in England. Obviously I
wasn't in the union. I didn't have any actual role
to play, but coming from a sort of this was
after a few years of already being in dock and
many years of being sort of in media more broadly.
And I remember on the you know, second or third

(19:14):
day I was there, everyone was scrambling around to try
and do a new setup, and I decided I was
going to grab a sandbag and help, and I just
got chewed out so badly for touching that sand bag.
I remember, I wasn't in the department. I mean, I
didn't really understand the hierarchies. I also see from their
point of view, they were like, who is this guy?
But I think after that day my interest kind of

(19:39):
declined very quickly because I just did that that style
of working. I love the results, but not that experience
in the moment. It's sort of like it's taking away
the best part of it for me and just leaving
the parts that stressed me out.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
So you have no interest in narrative filmmaking, basically, I do.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
I do not. Yes, so I do very much have
an interest in narrative filmmaking, but it would have to
be the right kind of project. I mean, especially the
longer I stay in this and the more you know.
I say, when I started, I was essentially a photographer
shooting video. Over the years, I do think I've grown
into that title of a cinematographer, if I mean perfectly honest.

(20:20):
In some ways, the YouTube channel has played a big
role because it's forced me to do so many educational
videos that I've had to go out and get so
many practice reps with things that I just thought I
took for granted, but having to do it dozens of
times and also explain it for a camera has really
strengthened a lot of fundamental skills for me. So the

(20:42):
longer I stay in this, the more I'm interested in it.
But I don't want to pretend. It's rare that I
see a movie where I think I would have loved
to have shot that, and you know, like an example
for me, I don't want to shoot Dune, right, that's
just I have no interest. But when I see Nomadland,

(21:02):
I'm like that.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
You know, is in my right wheelhouse?

Speaker 2 (21:07):
In my wheelhouse?

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. You know, I guess different strokes
for different folks. Obviously, everybody's got sort of a style
and a bend on their direction they want to go in.
But it's funny when I watch documentaries, I often say, like,
how did they make that? How did they capture that footage?
What did it take to be there in that moment?
And it couldn't have been staged because these are real people,

(21:27):
are real animals or real whatever. It is happening in
real time. And honestly, the word I use is it
just terrifies me. I just don't think I would ever
be good at it because I like more control. I
like a controlled environment. I like to guide my actors
and say, this is what we want, this is the setup,
here's how the camera's going to move, and if we
don't get it right, we're going to do it over

(21:49):
and over and over again. And I guess that just
takes away the moment from you.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, I think that's it's the opposite of the way
I'm wired. I really I used to really you know
that that. You hear a lot of cinematographers saying I
want to create frames, not capture them, and I would
hear that and think, yeah, that's what I got to
do too. But I also with time think that probably
I enjoy capturing them a lot more, and I just

(22:15):
I like capturing them in a way that I think is,
you know, visually pleasing. And I think I'm just getting that.
That's really what the rest of my career is about,
just incrementally getting better at making something real look like
it was controlled.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Okay, you mentioned your YouTube channel, and sort of you're
getting more practice in terms of the controlled environment. I
love watching your channel, by the way, because you're it
feels to me you're supernatural, You're comfortable. I don't know
how many takes you do if you're just a darn
good editor and it's seamless editing, or you're just doing
it on one or two takes and it looks really good,

(22:52):
but you've had a lot of success on YouTube. You
you know, take a minute plug your channel and just
why did you get into that? The whole education? I mean,
I can tell you, like I like, I'm a teacher
at San Diego State and UCLA, and I love sharing
knowledge with students. But I'm older than you, and I'm
sort of at the end of my career and I'm thinking, okay,
this is a time to give back. But what what

(23:14):
was your inclination to start your channel? And you know,
it's a lot of work to do all that.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, I mean for me, it was loss of control.
Like I the latter stages of when I was in Mexico,
I was in really high demand, as maybe you can imagine.
It was the peak of the premium doc boom. You know,
everyone was wanting content about cartels, and there was me
connected to the fixers who did all that stuff and

(23:42):
willing to pretty much do anything. So as I you know,
the last part of my time there, I was on
the road constantly and making a ton of money. It's
you know, it's all relative. But for me at that
time in my life, who'd only been a photojournalist, you know,
and kind of had lived pretty much like a backpacker
my whole life, it was suddenly like serious industry money,

(24:05):
it's coming my way. And I was living in Mexico,
you know, I felt like I was sort of on
top of the industry and like that that would not end.
And then the time I moved back to Canada after
that shooting just accidentally happened to be March twenty twenty,
when COVID you know, started pretty much immediately after I landed,
and I was in a city where I didn't know anybody,

(24:27):
with like a couple pieces of Ikea furniture watching everything
shut down. And the first six months I really enjoyed
and I kind of took my time and you know,
tried to see the city and set up a little
bit of a life. And then, you know, after about
six months, I started to notice that a lot of
production companies that I'd worked with were starting to get
back on track with their shows, and like my colleagues

(24:50):
were working in the States and stuff, and I just
realized that I got dropped from everything. And because I
was in Canada and it was slightly more complicated to
cross the borders during COVID because of the Canadian government,
I just found that the whole industry had basically said, Okay,
until this is completely over, you're out. Not that anyone
was trying to be vindictive against me, but I realized

(25:12):
in that moment, oh, what you thought you had is
not actually real, and it's not in your control at all,
and it can disappear essentially overnight. And so that was
sort of a reckoning moment for me where I realized, like, yeah,
I don't want to I don't want to do something else.
But I have to figure out something where the control. Also,

(25:33):
I'm not happy if I'm not if I'm not doing something.
If I'm not I don't have to be working on
a job, but I need to have a creative outlet
of project to focus on, right, And so I needed
something that I could control both from a business standpoint
and from a creative standpoint, and so I just started.
And right around that time, I think we sort of

(25:54):
switched from YouTube one point zero, which was all only
slashy gear influencers, to this sort of different stage where
you started to get guys like Mark Bone, who I
drew a lot of inspiration from, who were starting to
talk about real things, and I realize, like, Okay, now

(26:15):
there is a model and a proven market segment for
people talking about real industry things, because I don't want
to sit at my desk and pretend that I care
about whatever gimbal or sharpness. Sorry, right, So yeah, once
I started seeing that, and combined with the fact I
just had no work and was going insane, I thought, Okay,

(26:37):
there's something that I can do, and I can work
at my own pace. And so for me, though YouTube
isn't really an exercise in acting it's a writing exercise
because I plan out my videos quite quite carefully, but
the way that they're recorded is, you know, sometimes ninety
ninety five percent according to a script. For me, it's

(27:01):
it's mostly just if I find an idea, for example,
like if a camera assistant asked me a question that
I think other people in that position that probably wondered,
that's an idea for a video, and then I spend
the majority of time writing it and almost no time
at all recording it. So, you know, say, I if
I've done the writing part correctly, when it comes time
to make a video, a fifteen minute video probably only

(27:22):
takes twenty minutes to record. You stumble a few times,
but it's all there, and then I hand it off
to an editor. I don't edit it myself. And that's
really the only reason that I'm able to keep both
things at the same time, because I still will prioritize
my professional career. You know, YouTube. I love my channel.
It was one of the best decisions I ever made

(27:44):
to start it. It's given me so many opportunities. But
I have never spared a link publicly off of YouTube.
I've never posted about it on Instagram. I've never included
on my website and I've never ever posted and said, hey,
check out my new videotide a plot.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
But you have, like I think, well over one hundred
and fifty thousand subscribers. Did that happen organically? How did
that happen?

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Well, that was part of my deal for starting YouTube
was I was not going to I was in first.
It was out of embarrassment. I'm not going to pump
this on my on my social media because my Instagram
is where my colleagues are, and so I just decided
all the growth has to be within the platform. Now
I have an email list as well, but those are
you know, it's made up of people from the channel,

(28:28):
so it's really the same audience. But so now sometimes
there'll be links in there, but no, I've never done
a social media post anywhere saying check out my video.
And I've never publicly declared to anyone that I even
have a YouTube channel. My website doesn't mention it. And yeah,
so where was I going with that?

Speaker 1 (28:47):
I mean, I asked you, how did the channel grow
so much organically? I mean, obviously, if they google your name,
they're going to see your channel before your website.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
What's crazy now is I've been doing this for fifteen years,
and filmmaking that or media that is. And I've been
on some shows that have won major awards. And I
just saw this morning that when you Google me, it
calls me an Internet personality. That's what I'm known for,
an Internet personality.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yes, you have a big presence. You have a big
presence on the web. So I mean whatever I mean
for better or words, you've done a good job or
it's happened organically very well for you.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Well. One, I think that there is a shortage on
YouTube and social media more broadly, but especially on YouTube,
there is a shortage of people teaching skills that actually
have professional experience. You know. It's really, it's really, it's
a lot easier to start a channel. What I'm noticing

(29:47):
I talked to a lot of young filmmakers. I get
a lot of I'm.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Going there and I'm going to be going there with
you in a second.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Okay, So I get a lot of people who express
interest in becoming filmmakers. But when you really grill down,
a lot of people want to be known as a
filmmaker and basically be a content creator who talks about
filmmaking and confusing the two things as being the same thing.
And there's nothing wrong with just being being a content creator, right,

(30:16):
But I think that's the easiest and the most accessible
form of YouTube because you can order order a piece
of gear off BNH. They've got a perfect thirty day
return policy, do your review, send it back. You know
it's you can just keep doing that forever and year
is so good that if you spend let's say, twenty

(30:38):
five hundred bucks or maybe even less, you're going to
have a video quality that no one will bat an
eye at when it pops up right. You just got
a keylight, a decent camera, and you're fine. That means
there's a lot of people talking about filmmaking, but there's
not that many people who've actually sort of clawed their
way into the industry and who are talking about that

(31:01):
stuff from the perspective of people who are trying to
do the same thing. So that's one thing I think
in any online marketplace, there's a lot of people talking
about something, but you sort of gravitate towards people who
seem to actually have done the things they're talking about.
So I think that goes in my favor and I
think the other thing is all the writing is that,

(31:22):
you know, I've tried to sit down and make YouTube
videos where you just talk to the camera on some
theme and then in the edit you try and put
it together into something coherent, and I know lots of
people who have great success doing that, but I'm not
a good ad. I'm not a good actor, so I
just sort of stumble all over the place when I
try that. And I also feel like, you know, they've

(31:44):
just announced that YouTube is now bigger than all the
other platforms combined, and more than fifty percent of the
views on YouTube itself are coming from TVs instead of
phones and computers. Right, so TVs are now bigger than
both phones and computers combine, which means it essentially is TV.
It's just another form of TV. And sorry, I'm sort

(32:07):
of a spiraling off topic here, but just.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Go back to the filmmaking thing. You say, people like
you're you're a filmmaker because you've made films, as opposed
to being what I call an aspiring filmmaker, somebody who
wants to make a film, and so you get approached
by lots of i'm gonna say, young aspiring filmmakers, as
do I what do they want? Do they want? They
want guidance as to how to do what you did,
which is to break into the business. But I've heard

(32:32):
you speak on your channel many times and just say
you just got to do it, like stop talking about
it and just do it, get out there and shoot.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
And that's that's I guess what I've what I've really
noticed is that filmmaking in some ways, thanks to the Internet,
has become cool in the way that Celebrity Chef was cool,
you know, in the early two thousands, And people need
to ask themselves, do they do they actually like the
process of making these things, because, like you said, the
only way that you're going to get anywhere is by

(33:03):
going out and doing them. And these days, spec projects
count for so much because if you have nothing to
show and you're hoping you're going to get an entry
level position and work your way up, like those positions
don't exist anymore. And as AI comes out and replace
automates a lot of more entry level jobs, it gets
harder and harder. And the only way you're going to

(33:24):
jump on that career ladder that now has no bottom
rungs is by building yourself a ramp up to, you know,
the higher levels, and the way you do that is
by making stuff yourself. And so I meet a lot
of people who love the idea, they love the pursuit
of getting the better gear, they love the product, they

(33:44):
love the editing all that stuff, but they don't actually
go out and make anything, ever, and they don't understand
why things aren't moving for them. And for me, it
was exactly the opposite. You know, I spent two years
after the time I from the time I bought that
used stills camera to the time I actually started getting
paid enough to live was like two years, and I

(34:06):
did it six days a week, and I would get
irritated if you stop me, you know, if some family
obligation came. I'm not saying it's a healthy way to live,
but I really wanted to be out there making it.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
You know.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
It'd be like there'd be some Christmas would come up
and I'd have to stop, and I'd and I'd get
irritable that I'd have to go home and hang out.
So an opposite, extreme example that I also would not encourage.
But I'm just saying, if you don't like the process
of actually going out, like if it's a horrible chore
for you to go out and get off the couch
and you have to psych yourself up to go out

(34:38):
and shoot. Then it's gonna be tough because that's what
the whole job is. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah, So it's funny. So when you say filmmaker, you're
talking about making films, like you're talking about sort of
the art of crafting a film, you know, primarily shooting it,
obviously capturing the footage. What I primarily talk about is
the business of filmmaking, And you know, I'm always talking
about the financing stuff and distribution and marketing and all

(35:03):
this stuff, sort of what I call the wrap around
part of the art. Like you can't if you want
to be a sustainable filmmaker, you have to be not
just the artistic person, but you have to be the
business person. And a lot of people don't want to
be both. So I say, just collaborate with people who
are complementary skills. Set find somebody who likes finance and
marketing and that kind of stuff, and work with them,

(35:23):
and it's you know, filmmaking is a collaborative process, as
we know, it's a team sport, as you've said, and
I've said many times, but I talk about that so ironically.
The people like you who talk about the art of filmmaking,
You and Mark and dozens and dozens of other people
you know who have podcasts and webcasts have hundreds of
thousands of subscribers. I have, you know, very few, because

(35:46):
nobody wants to hear about the business. I only talk
about the business because I think it's so important. But
organically it's not the fun part. It is not the
fun part of the film industry. Filmmaking like the artistic part.
What you do is the fun part, capturing you know,
the moment and that type of thing.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
But I say, well, i'd push back on you there,
and I'd say, yes, that is the fun part. But
there's a lot of extremely unglamorous industries that have built up,
like finance for example, that have build up massive channels.
I would say, having looks at your channel, that your
biggest problem is packaging and playing the YouTube game and
finding formats that are click triggers for people, not necessarily

(36:27):
that your subject matter is an interesting I think. I
think that was one of the biggest things for me
coming into YouTube, is thinking because of my TV career,
I'm going to kill this, but you realize that YouTube
operates by its very specific set of rules, and to
get views on YouTube is almost as much an exercise
in how you package the content as what the content

(36:48):
itself says. I know people who talk about really boring
stuff with gigantic channels, they're just really good at enticing
people to click on their videos and you know, presenting
it in a.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Right I mean, my goal in doing this is just
to kind of like I call my channel Truth and Reality,
just tell the truth and the reality of what's really
going on and share it and if people watch it, great,
and if they don't, so be it. Like I'm not
gonna at my age, at my place in my career,
I'm not going to compromise. And this isn't about clickbait
and about you know, finding you know, being the number

(37:22):
one YouTuber and with the biggest audience. This is just
about sharing the knowledge that I think I want to
share with people. So I get there totally.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, I'm not saying you should do that, And part
of what you're saying is one of the reasons why
I why I wanted to talk to you. I was like, yeah,
this sucks great, is got good intentions, and so I'm
not saying you should try and dominate the YouTube thing,
but when it comes to views, that's probably a large
reason why you're not seeing the numbers you think you might.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yeah, listen at the schools I teach at the universities,
I teach the business side of filmmaking, and I'm going
to readily admit that my courses are probably the least
popular with in the film schools. Now. I say to students,
they're the most important, but they're the least They're the
least popular because nobody goes to film school wanting to

(38:08):
learn how to get a film financed. Nobody goes with
the intention of distributing. Okay, I know they should. That's
why I'm saying this because segue into the last segment
of what I want to talk to you about. But
nobody goes there with that intention. They go there with
the intention of figuring out what you do, how to
be a cinematographer, how to use a camera, how to light,
how to do sound properly, you know, the artistic side
of filmmaking. And when they realize, oh, this guy's going

(38:30):
to teach us how to get the money to make
that we're not interested. Somebody else will figure that out
for us. Somebody elseill figure out how to sell it
for us. Somebody I say, no, No, nobody's going to figure
that out. You need to understand it. When I say
the word, like the words tax credit, everybody's head spins,
their eyes go to the back of their head, their
head spins around three times. And I say, like ninety
five percent of you, if you make a narrative film,

(38:51):
are going to probably access some type of tax credit.
So I'm just going to explain to you what it's
all about. I'm not saying you're necessarily going to process
it yourself or do it, but at some point you
will cross that bridge and you will realize that that's
all part of this whole industry. Okay, So on that note,
you talk about it a lot. I saw this in
you know this when you and Mark talked about making

(39:12):
filmmaking a sustainable career. It's a tough business. We both
know that, very very tough to do this and make
a living from it. So a lot of you know,
a lot of people will try their hand at it.
And I encourage everybody to try their hand at it,
because why not if you have a dream and you
want to aspire to do something, give it a shot.
But like for me, I always say, if you want

(39:33):
it to be sustainable, you want to be a sustainable filmmaker,
meaning not just a one and done but somebody who
continues to do it over and over and over. You
are going to have to deal with the business at
some point because money is what drives all business. So now,
how do you like? You've been very honest that one
of the reasons I wanted to have you on my
show is because because I love watching your interviews, because
you're so honest and you tell like no uncertain terms.

(39:56):
You say to filmmakers, Look, this is not for the
faint heart. This is not going to be easy. This
is a tough path to follow. Tell me if you
want to succeed, how does that work.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Part of what's happening, and partly due to social media,
and I'm as much to blame as anybody else, is
that this concept of filmmaker has become very muddled and
intertwined with the concept of content creator or influencer. Right,
they're all kind of The word is being used in
so many contexts that it almost doesn't mean anything because realistically,

(40:28):
I'm not really a filmmaker. I occasionally will make a film,
but I'm a DP for hire, right, That's I am
a film worker who sometimes will have an idea that
I really really really like and try and go through
the heartbreaking torment that is trying to get something actually

(40:48):
made from start to finish.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Okay, let me just stop you right there for a second.
So would the filmmaker would you call the filmmaker, say,
the producer who puts the whole thing together, or the
director who artistically brings it to the vision to life.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
So again, it's it's so it's it's become so dilutely
so muddy because of the internet landscape right in the past.
In a narrative sense, the filmmaker would be the director, okay, right,
or maybe you know, yeah, it would be the director.
In the documentary sense, it's you know, in a big

(41:22):
budget documentary sense, yeah, it's also probably the director, maybe
the writer who did it in collaboration with a television
director something like that. But in this online sense, filmmaker
just means anyone who's playing around with cameras or maybe
hopefully getting paid one day. Right, So, in the internet sense,
of the word. It's very much become just a catch

(41:44):
all for someone who likes to shoot video. That's just
the language that's used in the online sort of market space.
So filmmaker almost doesn't mean anything anymore.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
But can would you? Would you say that filmmaker means
you're going to create content that has a story as
opposed to would Yeah, I would say that's.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Not necessarily how it is being used, but that's that's
what I would say. Yes. So I don't really consider
myself a filmmaker because only every it's like at this point,
it's like every two years, maybe I make something short. Generally,
I'm a worker. And that's what most people don't I
think really grasp is that almost nobody, including Kreama, the

(42:27):
crop Oscar Winners, is just being paid to make their
own films. They're getting jobs, whether you know, it's whether
it's a commercial, directing on someone else's thing that isn't
your idea, or YouTube or whatever it is. You know,
I shoot. I shoot big broadcast survival reality shows sometimes right,

(42:51):
I work on the show alone, if you've ever seen that.
So whatever it is, everyone's going to have a day job.
Like Leonardo da Vinci, had a day job. He built
siege equipment for Italian and rulers. Right, He didn't just
sit in his studio paint whatever. The Mona Lisa is
a portrait commission. You know, someone paid him to do that.
The illusion of the filmmaker, you know, like there's a

(43:11):
couple of people around there. You know, maybe Sean Baker
is one of the closest people we have to you know,
a pure filmmaker still working. But I think a lot
of the people who are on YouTube have got it
twisted and they think we're just going to make films.
But the reality is you're going to need to earn
a bunch of money so that you're going to be
lucky enough to make the film that you care about.

(43:33):
And if you're not okay with that deal, you know,
if you don't want to go after that work and
do what it's going to take, which is a ton
of networking, figuring out how to get money, figuring out
how to convince people to give you money, to have
a really great career. The truth is that the longer
I stay in this the less competition I have because
it's hard to stay in this game, so people just

(43:54):
keep dropping off and when you get to the list
of really experienced people, after a while, it gets shorter
and shorter. So the ultimate success career hack is to
stay in the game. And to stay in the game,
you need money. And what doesn't pay money is your
own personal films.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
Right ever, No, not ever, not ever, I can.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
I can.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
I can tell you stories because because I come from
the world of distribution, so one percent of films make
their money back of independent films, and I can tell
you statistically why that's the case and everything like that.
But there is there is a dream still exists. You
just have to be smart about it and you have
to be well rounded. So to me, I.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Guess fine, it's fine to make it and lose money
if it is an extremely great showcase of your style
and what you can do, because then people will watch
it and go, man, this guy's great, or this this
lady's great. Whoever, this person's great, and I want them
to do that for me for money.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Fair enough if as long as that converts into that statement.
Otherwise it's not sustainable. You can do that once or
twice and then afterwards that's okay. Everybody. They had their fun.
Now now they've got to go figure out how to
make a living. But like, to me, the filmmaker is
you know, I hate to say it, because I've produced
nine films and I've directed five of them, all right,
so I know what it is to do, and they're
all narratives features. I know what it is to direct,

(45:07):
I know what it is to produce. Directing, by far
is the fun artistic part. I love it. If you
could be a full time director, who wouldn't be That's
just a dream come true. Because to me, that's the
story teller. That's the person who tells the story and
gets the craft the way the audience is going to
hear the story.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
All right.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
The writer writes the story, the director tells the story.
But to me, the filmmakers, the producer, they're the ones
who do all the heavy lifting. They're the ones who
put the financing together, who create the whole keep. They
launch the ship and they keep it sailing so that
their director and the film crew and everything like that
are enabled to actually do the art of the filmmaking.

(45:44):
And then after everybody doc the ship docks and everybody
gets off, the ship's got to keep sailing, and the
producer's there to hold the bag. To get the sales
to get the money back, and the producer lives with
the project their whole life. It's their project. They live
with that their whole life, and hope monetize it, and
it's their baby, and it's their child. Now the director
will always take the credit for it, because you know,

(46:06):
sometimes the director owns the film, but they're generally the
hired gun to be able to do the fun part
of telling the story. And I don't mean to mean directors.
It's super important function, but how many directors have put
their you know, asses on the line the way a
producer does, to put all their money and their financing
and their life and their career. Producers to me are
the filmmakers because they're what I would call the rain maker.
They're the ones who take an idea and make it

(46:28):
happen and bring everybody together. Now once in a while,
director does that too, but a director needs to act
as producer in order to make that happen. So that's
is the filmmaker.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
Now.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Film is a totally collaborative exercise. You just can I mean,
certainly certainly narrative filmmaking. I know that you guys in
the documentary side go out, you know, and do your
thing by yourselves or with one other sound person or
whatever gain which is terrifying for me. But but no, listen,
maybe that would be exciting. I should try that, baby.
But just getting back to so you meant you mentioned

(47:00):
that you're constantly approached by primarily younger filmmakers I'm sure,
who are aspiring to get in the business, but I'm
sure a lot of older people too, who are, you know,
late in the career and say, hey, I want I
want to just do this. This is what I've really,
actually really wanted to do, and I put it off
for forty years and now I'm nearing, you know, my
golden years, and I want to give it a shot.
So you get approached by a lot of people, as

(47:22):
do I, so I can tuck them aside because I say,
let's talk business. And as soon as I say let's
talk business, three quarters that are gone. All right, But
you you're going to tell them all right, let's talk
about it. And you just gave some advice about you know,
doing it and getting out there and getting off the
couch and not just sort of sitting there. But easier

(47:42):
said than done. Not everybody can put two or three
years into it the way you did to to just
work for free and hope that a job's going to
come along. And it's just I don't think the landscape
is like that anymore. So if you were starting out today,
Let's say you're graduating from film school and you want
to become Luke Foresight and somebody calls you and you

(48:03):
take their call and they say, I want to be you.
What should I do?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
I mean, if you want to have the same career
as me, I honestly would follow the same playbook if
you wanted to do what I do specifically, which is
like international gritty documentary storytelling. I think the fastest way
forward is still to get yourself out of your comforts,
like especially if you're living in America or like Western Europe,

(48:30):
go move somewhere, immerse yourself in a different environment, start
making stories from somewhere where everything is new to you,
and take a real interest in that. Can you know,
become an expert on a new place and really learn
it and become a go to person who can help.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Okay, but let's say somebody has let's say they're married,
they got kids, they got a family. They can't do
that they can't take off, and so what would they do?

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Like? Okay, so yeah, the reason I the only reason
I say that, the steps the same. I'm not saying
you have to go overseas to become a successful filmmaker
at all. The reason I did that and I have
found it so effective is that it's often cheaper.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
So but you're also super adventurous too.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yes, one hundred percent. But for me, you say, like
I had three years to practice. My rent was one
hundred dollars a month for those three years.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
So but I wouldn't have done that. I'm not like you.
I would not have lived in Juarez. I would not
have done that.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
If that's the case, then you wouldn't want my career.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
Correct. Okay, but let's say somebody does. But okay, but
they're not. They don't have the ability to leave their
comfort of their sort of bubble.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
They can't.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
They have too many obligations. It's or you know, maybe
it's an older filmmaker or an older spot.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
Yeah. I get the spirit of your question, and I
will answer it. But the semantic version of the answer is, well,
then you shouldn't have my career because if you can't
go do that, stuff. Then that's what the job is
there enough, But the spirit of your question is I think,
how can they have their own version of a career
that is meaningful making nonfiction content? And I would say
it's really the same thing. I think. I visualize it

(50:06):
like there used to be a pure maybe I made
a video about this, but a pyramidal structure of the
industry where there are a lot of low paid jobs
you get in on and you slowly work your way up.
Now I feel like it's all consolidated into a tower
right where everyone's packed into the lobby trying to get
up to these sort of small floors where people are working.

(50:26):
And I use that analogy, but AI is also kicking
out the wrungs of the fire escape, so like there
are editing technology out there right now where it doesn't
look like you'll ever need an assistant editor again in
a couple of years. How do you get up into
the up into that building is you make work that
you can then stand on so that you can reach
the windows, right, you have to show. It's like the

(50:49):
old adage you can't get a car commercial without having
car commercials in your portfolio. No one, there is no
zero room for a completely untested I'm curious in the world.
What there is room for are people who have taken
initiative and demonstrated that they can do this stuff. And

(51:09):
then you can do that on a lot of different scales.
So if let's say you were an older person or whatever,
for whatever reason, you are not in a position to
take off and go to the other side of the world.
You're in Middle America and a small community, you're happy
with your life, and you want to do meaningful work there.
I would do exactly the same thing. I would find
people in your community that you can tell stories about,

(51:31):
not topics, which is like I'm going to make a
film about climate change, but actual stories where you have
a person who wants something and you know, document in
their real life attempt to fulfill that goal, whatever it
may be. You get yourself a portfolio of those things
and you get good at making them. If you can

(51:52):
make a really great three minute film about your local
baker and it's a real story and it's and it's good,
you can use that as a portfolio piece to bring
in paid jobs. Whether now you do have to be
some level of realistic and if if you're if you're
in that situation. But in the back of your head

(52:13):
you're thinking, Man, once a year, I want to go
off to Antarctica to do expeditions with the north Face team.
That's not going to happen because those are specialist people
who do that stuff over and over again. But there
are many ways to support yourself. I think with visual
storytelling these days, and I would just I would, yeah,

(52:35):
I would make stuff. I would find stories you're interested in,
shoot them in your style, and keep repeating that process
until you're not bad at it anymore. And when you're
not bad at it anymore, you show it to other
people and that's where opportunities come from.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
And might I add, while you're doing that, keep your
day job.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yeah, oh, one hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Okay, okay, because a lot of people say I gotta
do this full time, I gotta leave what I'm doing,
and I say, no, no, no, keep what sustaining you
in your lifestyle and just find the time, carve it out,
make it, make it a hobby to start with until
it could become sustainable.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Great advice. Whatever you have to do to not sell
your car and sell all your gear. Like when COVID
lockdowns were happening, and I was basically looking at a
choice of the only things still in production were like
home Rento reality shows that I just did not want
to shoot. I was, I was. I was sizing up

(53:29):
Uber Bike's backpacks because I thought, I'm I'm not going
to shoot those shows. I'll hate it. I didn't get
into this to do this, so I was going to
go deliver food to pay the bills while I waited
for things to recover. Do whatever, pay your bills, like
paint work for the Da Vinci Dictator, right, whatever, Stay, keep,
keep your studio open, and stay in the game, and

(53:50):
then pick projects that are small, that are actually attainable.
So if you're in Wisconsin and have three kids, don't
say my first project is going to be about crossing
the Himalayas, because exactly the obstacles to pulling it off
are impossible. Thing something really small that you can actually
finish without destroying your life. Shoot it on the weekends.

(54:13):
Get that first film out there, and then make another
one that's a little bit better, and repeat that process,
and then once you get really good at that, things
will start to happen.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yeah, I agree, Shoot The Life of a Soccer Mom
not the Crossing the him malayas totally.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Fat, like my Octopus teacher, or like there are so
many examples of wonderful, wonderful documentaries. And if you can't
tell a story about someone in your community, you can't
tell a story about a drug kingpin either.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
I agree. Anyways, Luke, I really appreciate you taking the
time to come on. You're a wealth of information. I
know you're too modest to plug your channel, so let
me plug it. Luke's Forstlight Cinematographer. You guys should check
it out. It's really really well done as YouTube channel
and his website. And it was a pleasure talking to you,
and thank you for sharing all your wisdom with my audience.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Thank you very much. Yeah, Luke with the sea, that's
the only one Luke at the see correct? Yeah, Luke ForSight,
thank you. Thanks Luke.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
Well, that was Luke Foresight cinematographer YouTuber. I love interviewing
guys like him who are experienced and honest about his
career and the business. You watch some of his YouTube
offerings and you'll see just how honest he is. So
that's why I wanted to have him on my show.
He does something that I have not attempted to do,
which is make documentaries. But he knows that world really well,

(55:32):
and for people out there like you who want to
make a documentary, I strongly suggest you check him out.
Thanks a lot, we'll see you next time.