July 16, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode, Jeff Deverett is joined by Cinematographer & Editor Scott Leslie to explore the art and strategy behind great cinematography in indie filmmaking.
They go beyond camera talk, diving deep into lighting, equipment setups, and how to creatively use limited resources to deliver a high-end visual experience. Scott shares practical tips on how to stretch a small budget and make your indie film look like a big-budget production through smart cinematography choices, experience, and time-tested techniques.
They go beyond camera talk, diving deep into lighting, equipment setups, and how to creatively use limited resources to deliver a high-end visual experience. Scott shares practical tips on how to stretch a small budget and make your indie film look like a big-budget production through smart cinematography choices, experience, and time-tested techniques.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
A cinematographer is a game changer on a low budget
indie shoot. A good cinematographer can make the movie look
fantastic at a reasonable budget. If you want to be
a successful indie filmmaker, you need to know a lot
about not just the production of movies, but the business.
We are going to tell you the truth and reality
(00:22):
of what really happens in the indie film business today.
We have Scott Leslie. He is a professional cinematographer. Scott
and I have known each other for a long time
and we have made four films together. I'm not sure
I would ever use any other cinematographer. Maybe I shouldn't
(00:43):
have told you that, Scott, because now your price is
going to go up. But we have a very good
relationship and we get the job done and we know
each other's chemistry. So welcome Scott, Thanks for coming on,
Thanks for having me. So let me give the history
to the audience. So and sort of the relationship. As
you may remember from previous episodes, I do not have
(01:03):
a film degree. I do not have formal film training.
I have a law degree in a finance degree, so
kind of my background is obviously business and law and distribution.
But I always had the desire to be a filmmaker
and a director. So when I decided to direct my
first movie, I thought to myself, I need to surround
myself with some very skilled artistic people who know what
(01:26):
they're doing so they can help me with the things
that I don't know what I'm doing. So luckily I
found Scott because Scott is formally trained as a cinematographer.
I'll let you introduce yourself in a second. Scott basically
he does all the things really well that I don't do.
So I said to him when we were shooting our
first movie together, I said, I'm going to direct it
(01:46):
because I know what I want the movie to look
like and I have a vision. I'm also the producer,
so I want to put myself in that position because
I want to enjoy that role. But I need somebody
who can cover me. Basically, who knows cameras, len is, lighting,
sound even who just knows how to make a film
look really good. And I need that person to kind
(02:07):
of be by my side, not only do their job,
but kind of help me understand what else I have
to do on my job. I want the vision. I
have the vision of what I want it to be.
But Scott, do you think that you could help me,
you know, realize that vision with all your skills? And
he said, sure, that's great, but don't get in my way.
Let me when I tell you stuff, you know, let
me do what I do well, and you do what
(02:28):
you do well. And I think that that relationship has worked.
What do you think, Scott?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, So it's a funny story that the reason why
me and Jeff became friends. He was giving a talk
at a filmmaker's meeting and he was talking about distribution
and marketing, and is that this is the stuff I
don't know. I needed to know of this guy because
he knows the side of filmmaking that I don't know. So,
you know, I know the camera side, the production side,
(02:53):
but not the distribution side. So that's why I actively
sought Jeff out, because I just wanted to learn what
he knew, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
But then I said to you, Hey, I want to
make a movie, but I'm going to call myself director,
but I've never done it, and I don't really know
a lot of things that we.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Need, but you do so but you but you had
produced how many films at that point and four other films.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Maybe five five at that point.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so he wasn't like completely green, so
Jeff knew what he was doing. But yeah, our relationship
is that, you know, Jeff kind of shows me his
vision and I just go and try to execute it,
you know, so I know what. You know, we do
some pre production stuff, so I know what he the
look he's looking for, so on on set, I just
(03:38):
go and light it. And so Jeff's not involved in
the details of the lighting in the camera so that much.
But you know, it's my whole goal obviously as a
cinematographer is to get the director's vision and make that
come to pass.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And you're better at it than I am, so I
you know, it's rare I say that, but you know
I'm telling you that that's a skill that I don't have,
and you do. Just tell us a little bit about
your background. How did you become a cinematographer. What was
your journey?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, so I was going to UCSD as a computer
science and engineering major and like a couple years actually
a year into that.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Let me just clarify the University of California, San Diego,
not USC San Diego. Yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So I quickly realized that I don't want to do
that for the rest of my life. I don't want
to be computer science and engineering. So I didn't know
what to do. So I was already into photography, so
I started taking photography courses and then I thought, maybe
I'll be a photography major. But in doing a photography major,
you have to take video courses. So I took the
video courses and I'm all, oh, this is this is
(04:39):
this is super cool. And and once once you become
a video major, you have to do film. So this
is back when we were shooting stuff on film. So already
knowing photography and being well burst in photography, it was
really easy for me to step in the into the
film role because you know, I knew everything about exposure, aperture,
all that stuff. You know. Then I just really just
really got into it. So this is that UCSD graduated
(05:01):
a long time ago, and then I've been doing it
for twenty five plus years. But a lot of it,
like like what you learn at school, it's like you know,
like barely anything versus what you learn on the job
and you know, practical experience.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Right right, and but you do every you don't just
do feature films. Do you do lots of infomercials, commercials,
all kinds of stuff just kind of tell us what
you your bread and butter is? Is it commercials or.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Definitely the bread and Butter's commercials. I also do you know,
high end corporate stuff. But then I, you know, I
love narrative films, so I try to do at least
one of those a year as Michael. So, so how
I started, like, like out of UCSD, I did a
whole bunch of independent film stuff, so like super low,
low budget stuff, and then I was I was a
AC on several like sci fi channel films, but then
(05:50):
a lot, a lot of a lot of the feature
films that I worked on, like the smaller budget once
would get stuck in post production. And I already knew
how to do editing from school. So I made a
deal with the director that I've a dp IS film
if he'd buy me the editing gear. So this is
back in the day where it was like, you know,
fifteen grand to buy an editing gear. So I bought that.
(06:12):
So then I got more and more into editing, and
then commercials kind of kind of kind of came my way,
So I guess and you know that's so I got
into infomercials for several years right, like like maybe ten years,
just because there's a ton of money in it. So
it was just kind of a good bread and butter
(06:32):
thing to be doing.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I know, I know your cat, but I've never seen
your cat with a harness. You walk your cat now
with a harness.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So ann like to have the cat when we let up,
let the cat outside all the time. It's super good,
doesn't jump the fence, but an like to have a
harness on it. Okay, let him outside?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Nice? Okay. So I'm going to fish for a compliment here.
I'm not doing it for that reason. I'm doing it
to kind of explain something to the audience. So what
do you look for when you're going to choose a project, Like,
let's just go into feature films now, because that's what
obviously what you and I work on. What are you
looking for sort of in the project and or in
(07:06):
the director the team? What is what it makes it
attractive to?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I want to make sure that that the and product
is going to be good. So that's that's the main thing.
So I need to have for indefinitent films. You have
to shoot really fast, but there's a there's a limit
to that, so I need I need somebody who That's
what's great about working with Jeff because Jeff has even
before the first film, he has produced so many films,
(07:30):
he already knows kind of what you could shoot in
a day, you know, So he's not.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That was the compliment that was finishing for so I
got it, Okay, now you can tell everything else.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So he's not trying to shoot fourteen pages in a
day like some other people. Jeff is awesome about about
finding really good actors, so he has a good casting.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Agent, Miriam and Candace.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, Merriam and Candace.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, they did an episode too also they yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So there. I mean, I'm super surprised or just happy
with with the talent that they're able to get, especially
the non sag because a lot of the stuff that
we do is not sag, so you got to find
really good non sag actors who are willing to work
at a low budget level. That's the benefit of being
close to LA is that there's a lot of people
there that are willing to do.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
That, right, So we shoot prime million San Diego. But
you just said speed, speed, but realistic, like you know,
in terms of being pragmatic about what you can and
can't get in a day. So you said, like fourteen
pages a day is unreasonable. I mean, I think eight
pages a day is unreasonable. But you know, low budget
indie films are working on low budgets obviously, so you
(08:35):
do have to shoot at a certain rate. What do
you think for say, let's talk about one hundred page
typical one hundred page, one hundred minutes movie. What do
you think would be reasonable? How many shooting days, like
twenty days, eighteen days, sixteen.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I'll think as many days as you give me, but
I try to keep it. I think fifteen is kind
of the minimum unless you're not doing hardly any location moves.
So the whole thing about shooting films, more locations you have,
the more moves you have, the longer it takes. Every
time you're doing a location move. You got to break
down all your gear. That that's gonna gonna take at
(09:09):
least an hour. You got to move the location.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
You got to load the truck first, you know, yeah,
load the van.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
You have to tie everything in, and you had to
go unload it. So it's just a three hour suck
almost always time time you do a move, you know,
and that's not even counting getting out there and starting
to pre light. So that's why you have a lot
of low bunch of films that they're like like a
house in a cabin in the woods, so it's like
one location in the woods.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So you along. You and I get along really well
on set. I think we have good chemistry. I think
we understand each other. The only time that I ever,
you know, question you, is when you it's pretty well
every lighting set up. So I say to you, Okay,
here's the scene. You and I blocked the scene. We
talk about it. We do shot lists before, so we
kind of know what we're gonna do. Right. Then we
(09:54):
get on set and you've already warmed me up for this,
and you've trained me well to know what to expect.
And you say, I kind of I need ninety minutes
to light. I say, what ninety minutes are? You go
to your mind, I'm giving you fifty minutes, and you say, no,
ninety and then in my mind I figure two hours.
But we've gotten to a place where you kind of
second guess me and you really need sixty minutes, so
(10:14):
you tell me ninety, I'm second guessing you thinking ninety,
so I'm going to give you one twenty and then
we usually come in at the right place. But lighting
does take a lot of time. You've trained me well
to understand that, and it's important because you can explain that.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I mean, to me, that's everything I really like to
paint with light. So what's going to make an indie
film look super low budget is if you have bad
lighting against the white wall. So it's just lighting hand
in hand with set deck too. So finding great locations
of Jeff is the master at finding these amazing locations.
(10:49):
I don't know how he pulls it off, but somehow
he does. So you gotta have a location that Jeff
knows that it's got to be long so you can
have room for your lighting, and that you have depth.
You always want to go for depth, and so it's
that's kind of what you're looking for. And I kind
of forgot the question.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, no, the light, so well I'm going to ask them.
We ask the question. So generally the way we hire crews,
now there's three people I like to hire well, other
than the actors, Okay, I like to be involved in
the actor casting obviously, production manager, you line producer, and
then I say to each of you find me a
good crew and you generally you work with a lot
of the same crew often people who you know could
(11:29):
work at your speed and then your quality level. But
I wouldn't even know what to ask a GAF for
a grip, but you generally, what do you look for
people like we look for in people when you're going
to hire them, say, you know, on a low budget,
fast moving into shooting.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So that's always the benefit when we're shooting in San
Diego because I've done this for so many years that
I've got, you know, loads of people that i can
call on. You know, I've got five deep of every
every position and they're trusted people that that I that
I know. When we're shooting someplace outside of San Diego,
that's more of the trick. But you know, so there
(12:04):
are things that you could talk to about the gaffer,
you know, about what kind of light lighting you do.
You know, I liked like they have upstage lighting where
you know you're lit more from behind, are the sides
and make sure you get a lot of shape on
your face. You talk to them, you see what kind
of gear they have, you see what their experiences and
if they're used to the low budget thing you used
to moving moving fast. I think sometimes we could have
(12:26):
asked more questions, Jeff. So that's that's that's a lesson learned.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Sometimes fair enough okay, But we've gotten very lucky with
cruise insanty because you generally know the people, you know them,
you trust them, you know they can move at the
pace we want to move at. So we did shoot
one film in Oklahoma together and we had to use
a local crew there for tax credit purposes. That was
more of an adventure. I mean, you dealt with it
better than I did. I was super aggravated with a
(12:50):
lot of people. You had more patience, remember, but you
know you interviewed people like you're getting a second camera,
you're getting we're talking to you about pmatography here, but
we haven't even talked about camera work yet. We're still
primarily talking about lighting, just because that takes so much time,
is so important, and you basically are in charge of it,
like the gaffer works for you. So when we went
(13:11):
there and you had sorta of no crew to, no people,
no relationships, you know that you had in place it
was going to be cold. Is it kind of trial
and error hope that the people you hire are good
and deal with it that way or I mean.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It's this sort of extent. You know, you try to
interview them as much as you can ahead of time
and really get a feel for them. But you know,
you've never I think we did go out there and
meet them, at least most of the crew, but that's
just one day. You know, anybody can sound good, So
it is references and trial and error.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I agree. Okay, so Scott, just in terms of
actual cinematography, meaning camera work, like I call a cinematographer
somebody who's kind of in charge of the look. So
camera's one component. Lighting is a huge component. Obviously, everything
is a component of the look. And you often give,
you know a lot of comments to the team about
obviously what the set design looks like because you know
(14:06):
it's going to factor into a look, but you also
talk a lot about wardrobe, like you know, the camera
doesn't like stripes and certain things like that. Just kind
of talk about that for a minute.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
There's something that's called moraing. So if you have like
really tight pinstripes. It's not as bad as it used
to be. It used to be much worse before high depth,
but you still can get it. So you get little
vibrations in the pattern of what you have. You obviously
don't want that. But the more advanced you get in filmmaking,
the more you're trying to go for a color scheme.
So what's the color look that you're trying to do
(14:37):
and what are you trying to get across? So a
lot of times that's all thought of in pre production.
You know, what what is the whole vibe that you're
trying to give off, and what is the emotion behind it?
You know, it's little subtle things, but you know it's
something that it's good to think about.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Right, Okay, So Scott, in terms of you know, staying
on time on budget, we have to shoot at a
certain page, so you know, there's lots of different variety
of shots we can do, and you're pretty good at
choosing and pre planning what is going to work in
the timeframe we have. So just in terms of basic coverage,
what do you like to start with? And I might
add here that Scott's also the editor of the movie.
I generally hire him. He's a great editor, and not
(15:17):
only does he shoot my movies, but he edits them,
so he kind of knows what coverage he's going to
need in the editing suite. And you know, as an editor,
I think it's really helpful to be both because then
you know exactly what you're gonna need when you edit.
So just speak to that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, So you have been editing for just as long
as I've been shooting, so it's I know the exact coverage,
or not the exact, but I know at least the
basic coverage that I'll need, you know, so I'll always
cover myself in the edit, so I'm never going to
be hunting for a shot that I need. So a
lot of times, the way we'd like to do it
with Jeff is, especially on one of these films where
(15:54):
there's you know, a lot of dialogue going back and forth,
we shoot with two cameras, but for we put both
cameras on the same side, so that would be like
like two cameras will be over here shooting me one
one one one will be my tight close up and
other will be like a medium shot. Most of the
times the medium will be like a dirty over the shoulder.
(16:15):
You're getting both those coverage at the same time, and
then then you flip around you do the same thing
for for the other side. So that's like if you're
shooting like like a couple of people sitting. But but
you said earlier about the about the order, so I
usually like that. We always like to start with the
white shot because that's the hardest thing to light because
when you're doing when you're when you're doing your your
(16:35):
wide shot, if you can light that right, then you
can just jump in and you have to barely tweak
tweak the lights. So that's that's what we go for,
and it's better usually for the actors to the actors
like to have the white shots had almost to warm up,
and then once they get into their close ups, uh,
they'll be all dolled in.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
So you mentioned about using two cameras, so you know,
I've spoken to a lot of firing filmmakers about that,
and I know you like it because we get lots
of coverage and we can move quicker. Obviously we don't
have to redo and reset and do all that kind
of stuff, So that works also for me. But then
you know there's obviously a cost of having a second camera.
You're renting the second camera, you have an operator, have
(17:16):
an a first a see, You've got other expenses with
a second camera. So I've done the math on it
many many many times, pretty well every shoot, and I
have concluded every single time that it actually makes more
sense to shoot at that speed and incur that extra expense.
The coverage is going to be better. It's you know,
obviously you're not going to use all the shots. You
(17:37):
can only use one of the two at the same time,
you know, on the edit. But if you want great
coverage and you want those options, and you want to
move quickly and not have to relight every time you
change or change your lenses or something like that, that
is the way to go. And I think it makes
a lot of sense to do that, so we always
do that.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
You're not saving any time as far as relighting goes,
but you are saving times for a coverage because because
how I shoot them both on the same side, So
so it would be like shoot shooting everything in the
medium that then changing lenses of shooting everything on the
type shooting both at the same time, right, Just I mean,
it's all about making your day on an independent film. Yeah,
(18:14):
I mean, the worst thing you can do is go
into overtime on a producer's standpoint, you know, so you've
got to move fast. So that's why one thing we
have talked about on almost all all my films we
use a slider instead of a dolly. Dollies are awesome,
but they just take time. You have to lay down track,
you have a level track, you have a dolly grip,
(18:35):
and it's it's just it's just time that usually we
can't afford on an indie film.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
So for those people who don't know, I mean, do
you want to explain that toot a slider and a dolly?
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Sure? So, so you know, dolly is what you would
typically see. There's like a Fisher dolly where it goes
onto tracks on the.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Ground, like little railroad tracks on the ground.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah yeah, yeah, so it it needs to be pushed
by a dolly grip. A lot of times the are hydraulic,
so it is kind of nice that they can move
up and down, but they're.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Also super heavy. It takes two guys to lift one
get them on, you know, leveling the tracks. It takes
a long time to set it all up and usually.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
It takes ten times as long that then set up
set up a slider, so slider which we in my
package I have, I have both a six foot and
ten foot sliders, so depending on what we need to do,
but sliders, it's it's still the kind of kind of
these two rails. So what we use is is it
Daana Dolly. So there are there are two rails that
(19:32):
the camera sits up and that's whatever heights that you
want the camera to be at. So there's a camera
and right underneath it is what you call the sled,
and the sled goes onto the tracks that are on
either stands are sitting onto apple boxes depending on what
you're doing, and.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
You don't have to take the time to level it.
It just basically you find a stable part for the
stands and you're good to go.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
You have the level sometimes but.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Well yeah, that's what I meant. I mean you're not
leveling the trail, you're just leveling it based on putting
it up.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And now there's there's a I don't know what is
it lately, like a little over a foot there. There
there are things that you have to level, you have
to put you have to put shims underneath it. So
it just it's just much more time consumering.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, slows it down a lot. You've been on lots
of shoots with lots of different filmmakers. So what would
you say is the most common error that a filmmaker
And I'm going to say usually the director, but sometimes
it's the producer of the team or whatever makes in
terms of not either finishing their film or finishing it
on time or making it actually look good. Like what's
what what would you say people should think about to avoid?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
So you need to keep your budget in mind. So so, yeah,
people will get emotionally attached to a script, which is great,
but you can't do certain scripts in a low budget
in fifteen days, you know. So if you if you
have a ton of action and stuff like that going on,
it's that all those things take setups, you know, especially
(20:57):
if you're using squibs are having blood involved. After every
take you got, you got to reset everything. So it's
a big deal and it just takes time. So you
just gotta You need to know your limitations, write for
your limitations right for a low budget, Like we said earlier,
keep your locations down to as as minimal as you can,
you'll keep your unit moves down. Yeah, and just just
(21:19):
just realize that, you know, this is low budget, but
if you don't stretch yourself thin, you can make it
look really good. You can make it look great. But
if you're trying to do too much, everything's gonna have
to be compromised and it's just gonna be marginal.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
What about cameras these days? You know, once the latest, greatest,
you know, going to six K, eight K, all this
kind of stuff. I don't think broadcasters can handle that.
But what's your take on that? So?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I feel like nowadays a lot of the topping cameras
are very similar. You know, once your color correction, you
can make them all almost look exactly the same. So
to me, I shoot on a ton of different cameras.
I own a verycam package. They're all at least now,
(22:05):
all the other more modern ones you can get really
great images from. But lenses are important too, so you know,
we like to shoot on prime Sydney lenses. So yeah,
so I'm not a huge camera nerd. I don't I'm
not like like like you could only be on this
one system. I think there's they're they're all great it's
not a big deal which platform you're on. It's it's
(22:27):
like a kind of a hammer. So so anybody can
can have a hammer. That doesn't mean that you can
go and build a house. So it's it's kind of
it's not so much the tool nowadays as to how
you use it, you.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Know, the operator, which is the case with almost every
trade everything. I mean, I call it like I look
at sports. I say, like a golf I say, you know,
a good golfer can play with the worst clubs possible
and still score well. And you give a bad golfer
the best clubs possible and they're not going to do it.
They're they're going to play terribly. Anyways.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So there's a time that where I knew a lot
of people that were there buying a red and this, okay,
I bought a red. Now I'm a cinematographer. That doesn't
discuss you bought a piece of gear. Doesn't make you
a cinematographer. It's learning how to use it properly, and
you know all the tricks and things behind it.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
So for those people who are listening who want to
be a cinematographer and want to go down that road,
what what advice would you give them.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It is good to buy your own camera. You don't
have to buy the most expensive one. Like I started
out with the whole DSLR revolution. I was on on
other cameras, but by the first ones that I kind
of started buying myself was with the Deal Religion Game,
So the Canon five D I started with. Then I
went to the Sony A seven S two. So those
(23:41):
you can get awesome images. You kind of have to
make a little bit of a frankensign system sometimes to
get all the things of a professional camera, but you
can get really nice images. So the whole thing is
to shoot. You got to shoot and shoot and shoot.
So if you get something, that's why having your own camera,
you're you have more access to it and you keep
on shootings. So you've got to get out there and
(24:02):
just try to shoot as many different things as you can.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, so a lot of it comes with experience doing.
But how about learning from mentors people like you. I
mean I see you teaching all the other younger camera
people on set all the time, showing them how to
do little tricks and things like that. You know, that's helpful.
That speeds up the process.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, so that's why I like getting on set even
as a PA and stuff. It's great so you can
kind of watch and see what happens and stuff. Of course,
nowadays there's a lot of great information on YouTube. Definitely
a great YouTube channel that I'll plug is the Wandering DP.
He is awesome about talking about lighting, mainly about lighting,
but also about some camera stuff. But make sure that
(24:42):
you're getting people that are actually pros and industry. You're
watching on YouTube, there'll be people that are pretend like
that like they're pros and they've only been doing it
for a year. So just kind of do a little
bit of research as to who you're really taking your
advice from.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, so it's I found it interesting in this discussion
that we had that, you know, people think cinematography is
the camera, you know, I mean, but a true cinematographer
on a big budget set, I mean doesn't really isn't
the camera operator. They're just looking at the whole shot
and setting it up sometimes as the camera operator. I
mean obviously on our sets you operate ACAM and somebody
(25:19):
else operates to the other cam, which is cost effective.
But a cinematographer am I correct and saying just needs
to capture the look, which so much involves lighting and
other things. And even though you're not the gaffer, you're
not the person setting the lights, you're explaining you're working
closely with them to make sure that they do it properly,
and you know that all the cameras are set in
the right place, the lenses are correct, all this kind
(25:41):
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So definitely something that something I always say is that
filmmaking the team sport. So I'm kind of only as
good as the gaffer underneath me, you know. So of
course we work together all the time. I'll explain to
him what I want, but especially these low budget films,
I'm not going and holding his hand and tell them
telling you help, tell them where to put lights. I'm
telling them, Okay, this is the look we're going for,
you know, let's light from this angle. This is where
(26:04):
a key is going to be. Just just some very
broad strokes, and he goes in there and does it all,
and of course sometimes we'll tweak it a little bit
when he's done. But you know, having someone that you
can really trust that's going to do ninety in the
work of sometimes ninety five hundred percent of the work
is great, you know. So that's you definitely need that
on an independent film because you can't be trying to
(26:26):
do all the camera and prep all the camera and
do all that stuff and do the lighting at the
at the same time. So that's why I try to
always have an experience gap for a lot of people
independent films or what We'll try to scamp on that
and it's like like, no, we have to have the
right people in place to really get the look.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So last question, because we're going to do another interview,
We're going I'm gonna interview you about editing as well, because,
as I said, you're also an editor. Do you think
it's advantageous for the cinematographer and the editor to be
the same person. I do because of something you just
said earlier is that you know exactly what coverage you're
going to need to edit it properly, and as an editor,
(27:04):
you know what footage we shot, so you sometimes just
by memory know that we shot this shot and you
remember shooting camera A, camera B that we've got this.
I just think that makes the process more efficient if
you can find people who like to do both and
are good at both.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yes, So it is kind of rare. Actually, there's not
that many cinematographer editors. I always enjoyed taking a film
from kind of the infancy all the way through post
so that's why I've always done it, and I like
doing it that way. You've definitely gonna have awesome cinematographers
that aren't editors, but they understand the editing processes and
understand the covers that they need, so that can work fine.
(27:41):
It will maybe take a little longer in post production
if you're not familiar with the footage. Obviously, you got
to familiarize yourself with it. But that's what some of
these editing logs and all that stuff that you get
from the script supervisor can be helpful.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
I think it's I mean, you know, as you say,
it's probably rare, but I think when you find it
and I'll give you a plug. I mean, Scott's a
great one. I'm not sure if you're a better cinematographer editor.
I think you're great at both. But I think it's
just magic that it works together seamlessly like that. Because
when we talk about, you know, finding shots, and you know,
we'll often say, oh, do you remember that day on
(28:14):
set when we did that slider shot and and you
know that thing happened or whatever. We can sort of
recall the shots together and then you can go look
for them quickly. So I think it just works really well.
But anyways, thank you so much for doing the interview.
As I say, we're going to do another interview with
Scott about editing and you'll see how it all fits together.
But Scott, any last words.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
No, no, yeah, I just I mean I enjoy what
I do. It can be tough if working in the
film business is can be challenging, but you know, it's
definitely rewarding.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, So just you know, my final word is, like
anything else, on the team. As Scott said, it's a team.
It's a team sport. And for a director that's a
good cinematographer is kind of your your hand person. They're
going to make your life easier and they're going to
make your film look so much better. So Scott, that
is exactly what you have done for my films, and
(29:08):
I really appreciate it. And thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
All right, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Thanks
A cinematographer is a game changer on a low budget
indie shoot. A good cinematographer can make the movie look
fantastic at a reasonable budget. If you want to be
a successful indie filmmaker, you need to know a lot
about not just the production of movies, but the business.
We are going to tell you the truth and reality
(00:22):
of what really happens in the indie film business today.
We have Scott Leslie. He is a professional cinematographer. Scott
and I have known each other for a long time
and we have made four films together. I'm not sure
I would ever use any other cinematographer. Maybe I shouldn't
(00:43):
have told you that, Scott, because now your price is
going to go up. But we have a very good
relationship and we get the job done and we know
each other's chemistry. So welcome Scott, Thanks for coming on,
Thanks for having me. So let me give the history
to the audience. So and sort of the relationship. As
you may remember from previous episodes, I do not have
(01:03):
a film degree. I do not have formal film training.
I have a law degree in a finance degree, so
kind of my background is obviously business and law and distribution.
But I always had the desire to be a filmmaker
and a director. So when I decided to direct my
first movie, I thought to myself, I need to surround
myself with some very skilled artistic people who know what
(01:26):
they're doing so they can help me with the things
that I don't know what I'm doing. So luckily I
found Scott because Scott is formally trained as a cinematographer.
I'll let you introduce yourself in a second. Scott basically
he does all the things really well that I don't do.
So I said to him when we were shooting our
first movie together, I said, I'm going to direct it
(01:46):
because I know what I want the movie to look
like and I have a vision. I'm also the producer,
so I want to put myself in that position because
I want to enjoy that role. But I need somebody
who can cover me. Basically, who knows cameras, len is, lighting,
sound even who just knows how to make a film
look really good. And I need that person to kind
(02:07):
of be by my side, not only do their job,
but kind of help me understand what else I have
to do on my job. I want the vision. I
have the vision of what I want it to be.
But Scott, do you think that you could help me,
you know, realize that vision with all your skills? And
he said, sure, that's great, but don't get in my way.
Let me when I tell you stuff, you know, let
me do what I do well, and you do what
(02:28):
you do well. And I think that that relationship has worked.
What do you think, Scott?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, So it's a funny story that the reason why
me and Jeff became friends. He was giving a talk
at a filmmaker's meeting and he was talking about distribution
and marketing, and is that this is the stuff I
don't know. I needed to know of this guy because
he knows the side of filmmaking that I don't know. So,
you know, I know the camera side, the production side,
(02:53):
but not the distribution side. So that's why I actively
sought Jeff out, because I just wanted to learn what
he knew, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
But then I said to you, Hey, I want to
make a movie, but I'm going to call myself director,
but I've never done it, and I don't really know
a lot of things that we.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Need, but you do so but you but you had
produced how many films at that point and four other films.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Maybe five five at that point.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so he wasn't like completely green, so
Jeff knew what he was doing. But yeah, our relationship
is that, you know, Jeff kind of shows me his
vision and I just go and try to execute it,
you know, so I know what. You know, we do
some pre production stuff, so I know what he the
look he's looking for, so on on set, I just
(03:38):
go and light it. And so Jeff's not involved in
the details of the lighting in the camera so that much.
But you know, it's my whole goal obviously as a
cinematographer is to get the director's vision and make that
come to pass.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And you're better at it than I am, so I
you know, it's rare I say that, but you know
I'm telling you that that's a skill that I don't have,
and you do. Just tell us a little bit about
your background. How did you become a cinematographer. What was
your journey?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, so I was going to UCSD as a computer
science and engineering major and like a couple years actually
a year into that.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Let me just clarify the University of California, San Diego,
not USC San Diego. Yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So I quickly realized that I don't want to do
that for the rest of my life. I don't want
to be computer science and engineering. So I didn't know
what to do. So I was already into photography, so
I started taking photography courses and then I thought, maybe
I'll be a photography major. But in doing a photography major,
you have to take video courses. So I took the
video courses and I'm all, oh, this is this is
(04:39):
this is super cool. And and once once you become
a video major, you have to do film. So this
is back when we were shooting stuff on film. So already
knowing photography and being well burst in photography, it was
really easy for me to step in the into the
film role because you know, I knew everything about exposure, aperture,
all that stuff. You know. Then I just really just
really got into it. So this is that UCSD graduated
(05:01):
a long time ago, and then I've been doing it
for twenty five plus years. But a lot of it,
like like what you learn at school, it's like you know,
like barely anything versus what you learn on the job
and you know, practical experience.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Right right, and but you do every you don't just
do feature films. Do you do lots of infomercials, commercials,
all kinds of stuff just kind of tell us what
you your bread and butter is? Is it commercials or.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Definitely the bread and Butter's commercials. I also do you know,
high end corporate stuff. But then I, you know, I
love narrative films, so I try to do at least
one of those a year as Michael. So, so how
I started, like, like out of UCSD, I did a
whole bunch of independent film stuff, so like super low,
low budget stuff, and then I was I was a
AC on several like sci fi channel films, but then
(05:50):
a lot, a lot of a lot of the feature
films that I worked on, like the smaller budget once
would get stuck in post production. And I already knew
how to do editing from school. So I made a
deal with the director that I've a dp IS film
if he'd buy me the editing gear. So this is
back in the day where it was like, you know,
fifteen grand to buy an editing gear. So I bought that.
(06:12):
So then I got more and more into editing, and
then commercials kind of kind of kind of came my way,
So I guess and you know that's so I got
into infomercials for several years right, like like maybe ten years,
just because there's a ton of money in it. So
it was just kind of a good bread and butter
(06:32):
thing to be doing.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I know, I know your cat, but I've never seen
your cat with a harness. You walk your cat now
with a harness.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So ann like to have the cat when we let up,
let the cat outside all the time. It's super good,
doesn't jump the fence, but an like to have a
harness on it. Okay, let him outside?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Nice? Okay. So I'm going to fish for a compliment here.
I'm not doing it for that reason. I'm doing it
to kind of explain something to the audience. So what
do you look for when you're going to choose a project, Like,
let's just go into feature films now, because that's what
obviously what you and I work on. What are you
looking for sort of in the project and or in
(07:06):
the director the team? What is what it makes it
attractive to?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I want to make sure that that the and product
is going to be good. So that's that's the main thing.
So I need to have for indefinitent films. You have
to shoot really fast, but there's a there's a limit
to that, so I need I need somebody who That's
what's great about working with Jeff because Jeff has even
before the first film, he has produced so many films,
(07:30):
he already knows kind of what you could shoot in
a day, you know, So he's not.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That was the compliment that was finishing for so I
got it, Okay, now you can tell everything else.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So he's not trying to shoot fourteen pages in a
day like some other people. Jeff is awesome about about
finding really good actors, so he has a good casting.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Agent, Miriam and Candace.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, Merriam and Candace.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, they did an episode too also they yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So there. I mean, I'm super surprised or just happy
with with the talent that they're able to get, especially
the non sag because a lot of the stuff that
we do is not sag, so you got to find
really good non sag actors who are willing to work
at a low budget level. That's the benefit of being
close to LA is that there's a lot of people
there that are willing to do.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
That, right, So we shoot prime million San Diego. But
you just said speed, speed, but realistic, like you know,
in terms of being pragmatic about what you can and
can't get in a day. So you said, like fourteen
pages a day is unreasonable. I mean, I think eight
pages a day is unreasonable. But you know, low budget
indie films are working on low budgets obviously, so you
(08:35):
do have to shoot at a certain rate. What do
you think for say, let's talk about one hundred page
typical one hundred page, one hundred minutes movie. What do
you think would be reasonable? How many shooting days, like
twenty days, eighteen days, sixteen.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I'll think as many days as you give me, but
I try to keep it. I think fifteen is kind
of the minimum unless you're not doing hardly any location moves.
So the whole thing about shooting films, more locations you have,
the more moves you have, the longer it takes. Every
time you're doing a location move. You got to break
down all your gear. That that's gonna gonna take at
(09:09):
least an hour. You got to move the location.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
You got to load the truck first, you know, yeah,
load the van.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
You have to tie everything in, and you had to
go unload it. So it's just a three hour suck
almost always time time you do a move, you know,
and that's not even counting getting out there and starting
to pre light. So that's why you have a lot
of low bunch of films that they're like like a
house in a cabin in the woods, so it's like
one location in the woods.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So you along. You and I get along really well
on set. I think we have good chemistry. I think
we understand each other. The only time that I ever,
you know, question you, is when you it's pretty well
every lighting set up. So I say to you, Okay,
here's the scene. You and I blocked the scene. We
talk about it. We do shot lists before, so we
kind of know what we're gonna do. Right. Then we
(09:54):
get on set and you've already warmed me up for this,
and you've trained me well to know what to expect.
And you say, I kind of I need ninety minutes
to light. I say, what ninety minutes are? You go
to your mind, I'm giving you fifty minutes, and you say, no,
ninety and then in my mind I figure two hours.
But we've gotten to a place where you kind of
second guess me and you really need sixty minutes, so
(10:14):
you tell me ninety, I'm second guessing you thinking ninety,
so I'm going to give you one twenty and then
we usually come in at the right place. But lighting
does take a lot of time. You've trained me well
to understand that, and it's important because you can explain that.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I mean, to me, that's everything I really like to
paint with light. So what's going to make an indie
film look super low budget is if you have bad
lighting against the white wall. So it's just lighting hand
in hand with set deck too. So finding great locations
of Jeff is the master at finding these amazing locations.
(10:49):
I don't know how he pulls it off, but somehow
he does. So you gotta have a location that Jeff
knows that it's got to be long so you can
have room for your lighting, and that you have depth.
You always want to go for depth, and so it's
that's kind of what you're looking for. And I kind
of forgot the question.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, no, the light, so well I'm going to ask them.
We ask the question. So generally the way we hire crews,
now there's three people I like to hire well, other
than the actors, Okay, I like to be involved in
the actor casting obviously, production manager, you line producer, and
then I say to each of you find me a
good crew and you generally you work with a lot
of the same crew often people who you know could
(11:29):
work at your speed and then your quality level. But
I wouldn't even know what to ask a GAF for
a grip, but you generally, what do you look for
people like we look for in people when you're going
to hire them, say, you know, on a low budget,
fast moving into shooting.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So that's always the benefit when we're shooting in San
Diego because I've done this for so many years that
I've got, you know, loads of people that i can
call on. You know, I've got five deep of every
every position and they're trusted people that that I that
I know. When we're shooting someplace outside of San Diego,
that's more of the trick. But you know, so there
(12:04):
are things that you could talk to about the gaffer,
you know, about what kind of light lighting you do.
You know, I liked like they have upstage lighting where
you know you're lit more from behind, are the sides
and make sure you get a lot of shape on
your face. You talk to them, you see what kind
of gear they have, you see what their experiences and
if they're used to the low budget thing you used
to moving moving fast. I think sometimes we could have
(12:26):
asked more questions, Jeff. So that's that's that's a lesson learned.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Sometimes fair enough okay, But we've gotten very lucky with
cruise insanty because you generally know the people, you know them,
you trust them, you know they can move at the
pace we want to move at. So we did shoot
one film in Oklahoma together and we had to use
a local crew there for tax credit purposes. That was
more of an adventure. I mean, you dealt with it
better than I did. I was super aggravated with a
(12:50):
lot of people. You had more patience, remember, but you
know you interviewed people like you're getting a second camera,
you're getting we're talking to you about pmatography here, but
we haven't even talked about camera work yet. We're still
primarily talking about lighting, just because that takes so much time,
is so important, and you basically are in charge of it,
like the gaffer works for you. So when we went
(13:11):
there and you had sorta of no crew to, no people,
no relationships, you know that you had in place it
was going to be cold. Is it kind of trial
and error hope that the people you hire are good
and deal with it that way or I mean.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It's this sort of extent. You know, you try to
interview them as much as you can ahead of time
and really get a feel for them. But you know,
you've never I think we did go out there and
meet them, at least most of the crew, but that's
just one day. You know, anybody can sound good, So
it is references and trial and error.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I agree. Okay, so Scott, just in terms of
actual cinematography, meaning camera work, like I call a cinematographer
somebody who's kind of in charge of the look. So
camera's one component. Lighting is a huge component. Obviously, everything
is a component of the look. And you often give,
you know a lot of comments to the team about
obviously what the set design looks like because you know
(14:06):
it's going to factor into a look, but you also
talk a lot about wardrobe, like you know, the camera
doesn't like stripes and certain things like that. Just kind
of talk about that for a minute.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
There's something that's called moraing. So if you have like
really tight pinstripes. It's not as bad as it used
to be. It used to be much worse before high depth,
but you still can get it. So you get little
vibrations in the pattern of what you have. You obviously
don't want that. But the more advanced you get in filmmaking,
the more you're trying to go for a color scheme.
So what's the color look that you're trying to do
(14:37):
and what are you trying to get across? So a
lot of times that's all thought of in pre production.
You know, what what is the whole vibe that you're
trying to give off, and what is the emotion behind it?
You know, it's little subtle things, but you know it's
something that it's good to think about.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Right, Okay, So Scott, in terms of you know, staying
on time on budget, we have to shoot at a
certain page, so you know, there's lots of different variety
of shots we can do, and you're pretty good at
choosing and pre planning what is going to work in
the timeframe we have. So just in terms of basic coverage,
what do you like to start with? And I might
add here that Scott's also the editor of the movie.
I generally hire him. He's a great editor, and not
(15:17):
only does he shoot my movies, but he edits them,
so he kind of knows what coverage he's going to
need in the editing suite. And you know, as an editor,
I think it's really helpful to be both because then
you know exactly what you're gonna need when you edit.
So just speak to that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, So you have been editing for just as long
as I've been shooting, so it's I know the exact coverage,
or not the exact, but I know at least the
basic coverage that I'll need, you know, so I'll always
cover myself in the edit, so I'm never going to
be hunting for a shot that I need. So a
lot of times, the way we'd like to do it
with Jeff is, especially on one of these films where
(15:54):
there's you know, a lot of dialogue going back and forth,
we shoot with two cameras, but for we put both
cameras on the same side, so that would be like
like two cameras will be over here shooting me one
one one one will be my tight close up and
other will be like a medium shot. Most of the
times the medium will be like a dirty over the shoulder.
(16:15):
You're getting both those coverage at the same time, and
then then you flip around you do the same thing
for for the other side. So that's like if you're
shooting like like a couple of people sitting. But but
you said earlier about the about the order, so I
usually like that. We always like to start with the
white shot because that's the hardest thing to light because
when you're doing when you're when you're doing your your
(16:35):
wide shot, if you can light that right, then you
can just jump in and you have to barely tweak
tweak the lights. So that's that's what we go for,
and it's better usually for the actors to the actors
like to have the white shots had almost to warm up,
and then once they get into their close ups, uh,
they'll be all dolled in.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
So you mentioned about using two cameras, so you know,
I've spoken to a lot of firing filmmakers about that,
and I know you like it because we get lots
of coverage and we can move quicker. Obviously we don't
have to redo and reset and do all that kind
of stuff, So that works also for me. But then
you know there's obviously a cost of having a second camera.
You're renting the second camera, you have an operator, have
(17:16):
an a first a see, You've got other expenses with
a second camera. So I've done the math on it
many many many times, pretty well every shoot, and I
have concluded every single time that it actually makes more
sense to shoot at that speed and incur that extra expense.
The coverage is going to be better. It's you know,
obviously you're not going to use all the shots. You
(17:37):
can only use one of the two at the same time,
you know, on the edit. But if you want great
coverage and you want those options, and you want to
move quickly and not have to relight every time you
change or change your lenses or something like that, that
is the way to go. And I think it makes
a lot of sense to do that, so we always
do that.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
You're not saving any time as far as relighting goes,
but you are saving times for a coverage because because
how I shoot them both on the same side, So
so it would be like shoot shooting everything in the
medium that then changing lenses of shooting everything on the
type shooting both at the same time, right, Just I mean,
it's all about making your day on an independent film. Yeah,
(18:14):
I mean, the worst thing you can do is go
into overtime on a producer's standpoint, you know, so you've
got to move fast. So that's why one thing we
have talked about on almost all all my films we
use a slider instead of a dolly. Dollies are awesome,
but they just take time. You have to lay down track,
you have a level track, you have a dolly grip,
(18:35):
and it's it's just it's just time that usually we
can't afford on an indie film.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
So for those people who don't know, I mean, do
you want to explain that toot a slider and a dolly?
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Sure? So, so you know, dolly is what you would
typically see. There's like a Fisher dolly where it goes
onto tracks on the.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Ground, like little railroad tracks on the ground.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah yeah, yeah, so it it needs to be pushed
by a dolly grip. A lot of times the are hydraulic,
so it is kind of nice that they can move
up and down, but they're.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Also super heavy. It takes two guys to lift one
get them on, you know, leveling the tracks. It takes
a long time to set it all up and usually.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
It takes ten times as long that then set up
set up a slider, so slider which we in my
package I have, I have both a six foot and
ten foot sliders, so depending on what we need to do,
but sliders, it's it's still the kind of kind of
these two rails. So what we use is is it
Daana Dolly. So there are there are two rails that
(19:32):
the camera sits up and that's whatever heights that you
want the camera to be at. So there's a camera
and right underneath it is what you call the sled,
and the sled goes onto the tracks that are on
either stands are sitting onto apple boxes depending on what
you're doing, and.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
You don't have to take the time to level it.
It just basically you find a stable part for the
stands and you're good to go.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
You have the level sometimes but.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Well yeah, that's what I meant. I mean you're not
leveling the trail, you're just leveling it based on putting
it up.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And now there's there's a I don't know what is
it lately, like a little over a foot there. There
there are things that you have to level, you have
to put you have to put shims underneath it. So
it just it's just much more time consumering.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, slows it down a lot. You've been on lots
of shoots with lots of different filmmakers. So what would
you say is the most common error that a filmmaker
And I'm going to say usually the director, but sometimes
it's the producer of the team or whatever makes in
terms of not either finishing their film or finishing it
on time or making it actually look good. Like what's
what what would you say people should think about to avoid?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
So you need to keep your budget in mind. So so, yeah,
people will get emotionally attached to a script, which is great,
but you can't do certain scripts in a low budget
in fifteen days, you know. So if you if you
have a ton of action and stuff like that going on,
it's that all those things take setups, you know, especially
(20:57):
if you're using squibs are having blood involved. After every
take you got, you got to reset everything. So it's
a big deal and it just takes time. So you
just gotta You need to know your limitations, write for
your limitations right for a low budget, Like we said earlier,
keep your locations down to as as minimal as you can,
you'll keep your unit moves down. Yeah, and just just
(21:19):
just realize that, you know, this is low budget, but
if you don't stretch yourself thin, you can make it
look really good. You can make it look great. But
if you're trying to do too much, everything's gonna have
to be compromised and it's just gonna be marginal.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
What about cameras these days? You know, once the latest, greatest,
you know, going to six K, eight K, all this
kind of stuff. I don't think broadcasters can handle that.
But what's your take on that? So?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I feel like nowadays a lot of the topping cameras
are very similar. You know, once your color correction, you
can make them all almost look exactly the same. So
to me, I shoot on a ton of different cameras.
I own a verycam package. They're all at least now,
(22:05):
all the other more modern ones you can get really
great images from. But lenses are important too, so you know,
we like to shoot on prime Sydney lenses. So yeah,
so I'm not a huge camera nerd. I don't I'm
not like like like you could only be on this
one system. I think there's they're they're all great it's
not a big deal which platform you're on. It's it's
(22:27):
like a kind of a hammer. So so anybody can
can have a hammer. That doesn't mean that you can
go and build a house. So it's it's kind of
it's not so much the tool nowadays as to how
you use it, you.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Know, the operator, which is the case with almost every
trade everything. I mean, I call it like I look
at sports. I say, like a golf I say, you know,
a good golfer can play with the worst clubs possible
and still score well. And you give a bad golfer
the best clubs possible and they're not going to do it.
They're they're going to play terribly. Anyways.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So there's a time that where I knew a lot
of people that were there buying a red and this, okay,
I bought a red. Now I'm a cinematographer. That doesn't
discuss you bought a piece of gear. Doesn't make you
a cinematographer. It's learning how to use it properly, and
you know all the tricks and things behind it.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
So for those people who are listening who want to
be a cinematographer and want to go down that road,
what what advice would you give them.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It is good to buy your own camera. You don't
have to buy the most expensive one. Like I started
out with the whole DSLR revolution. I was on on
other cameras, but by the first ones that I kind
of started buying myself was with the Deal Religion Game,
So the Canon five D I started with. Then I
went to the Sony A seven S two. So those
(23:41):
you can get awesome images. You kind of have to
make a little bit of a frankensign system sometimes to
get all the things of a professional camera, but you
can get really nice images. So the whole thing is
to shoot. You got to shoot and shoot and shoot.
So if you get something, that's why having your own camera,
you're you have more access to it and you keep
on shootings. So you've got to get out there and
(24:02):
just try to shoot as many different things as you can.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, so a lot of it comes with experience doing.
But how about learning from mentors people like you. I
mean I see you teaching all the other younger camera
people on set all the time, showing them how to
do little tricks and things like that. You know, that's helpful.
That speeds up the process.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, so that's why I like getting on set even
as a PA and stuff. It's great so you can
kind of watch and see what happens and stuff. Of course,
nowadays there's a lot of great information on YouTube. Definitely
a great YouTube channel that I'll plug is the Wandering DP.
He is awesome about talking about lighting, mainly about lighting,
but also about some camera stuff. But make sure that
(24:42):
you're getting people that are actually pros and industry. You're
watching on YouTube, there'll be people that are pretend like
that like they're pros and they've only been doing it
for a year. So just kind of do a little
bit of research as to who you're really taking your
advice from.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, so it's I found it interesting in this discussion
that we had that, you know, people think cinematography is
the camera, you know, I mean, but a true cinematographer
on a big budget set, I mean doesn't really isn't
the camera operator. They're just looking at the whole shot
and setting it up sometimes as the camera operator. I
mean obviously on our sets you operate ACAM and somebody
(25:19):
else operates to the other cam, which is cost effective.
But a cinematographer am I correct and saying just needs
to capture the look, which so much involves lighting and
other things. And even though you're not the gaffer, you're
not the person setting the lights, you're explaining you're working
closely with them to make sure that they do it properly,
and you know that all the cameras are set in
the right place, the lenses are correct, all this kind
(25:41):
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So definitely something that something I always say is that
filmmaking the team sport. So I'm kind of only as
good as the gaffer underneath me, you know. So of
course we work together all the time. I'll explain to
him what I want, but especially these low budget films,
I'm not going and holding his hand and tell them
telling you help, tell them where to put lights. I'm
telling them, Okay, this is the look we're going for,
you know, let's light from this angle. This is where
(26:04):
a key is going to be. Just just some very
broad strokes, and he goes in there and does it all,
and of course sometimes we'll tweak it a little bit
when he's done. But you know, having someone that you
can really trust that's going to do ninety in the
work of sometimes ninety five hundred percent of the work
is great, you know. So that's you definitely need that
on an independent film because you can't be trying to
(26:26):
do all the camera and prep all the camera and
do all that stuff and do the lighting at the
at the same time. So that's why I try to
always have an experience gap for a lot of people
independent films or what We'll try to scamp on that
and it's like like, no, we have to have the
right people in place to really get the look.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So last question, because we're going to do another interview,
We're going I'm gonna interview you about editing as well, because,
as I said, you're also an editor. Do you think
it's advantageous for the cinematographer and the editor to be
the same person. I do because of something you just
said earlier is that you know exactly what coverage you're
going to need to edit it properly, and as an editor,
(27:04):
you know what footage we shot, so you sometimes just
by memory know that we shot this shot and you
remember shooting camera A, camera B that we've got this.
I just think that makes the process more efficient if
you can find people who like to do both and
are good at both.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yes, So it is kind of rare. Actually, there's not
that many cinematographer editors. I always enjoyed taking a film
from kind of the infancy all the way through post
so that's why I've always done it, and I like
doing it that way. You've definitely gonna have awesome cinematographers
that aren't editors, but they understand the editing processes and
understand the covers that they need, so that can work fine.
(27:41):
It will maybe take a little longer in post production
if you're not familiar with the footage. Obviously, you got
to familiarize yourself with it. But that's what some of
these editing logs and all that stuff that you get
from the script supervisor can be helpful.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
I think it's I mean, you know, as you say,
it's probably rare, but I think when you find it
and I'll give you a plug. I mean, Scott's a
great one. I'm not sure if you're a better cinematographer editor.
I think you're great at both. But I think it's
just magic that it works together seamlessly like that. Because
when we talk about, you know, finding shots, and you know,
we'll often say, oh, do you remember that day on
(28:14):
set when we did that slider shot and and you
know that thing happened or whatever. We can sort of
recall the shots together and then you can go look
for them quickly. So I think it just works really well.
But anyways, thank you so much for doing the interview.
As I say, we're going to do another interview with
Scott about editing and you'll see how it all fits together.
But Scott, any last words.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
No, no, yeah, I just I mean I enjoy what
I do. It can be tough if working in the
film business is can be challenging, but you know, it's
definitely rewarding.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah, So just you know, my final word is, like
anything else, on the team. As Scott said, it's a team.
It's a team sport. And for a director that's a
good cinematographer is kind of your your hand person. They're
going to make your life easier and they're going to
make your film look so much better. So Scott, that
is exactly what you have done for my films, and
(29:08):
I really appreciate it. And thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
All right, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Thanks
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