October 8, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode of Indie Filmmaking, Jeff Deverett sits down with Linda Nelson and Michael Madison, founders of Indie Rights, one of the leading distributors in the independent film world. They share their journey from making their first IMAX film to building a distribution company that now represents hundreds of indie filmmakers.Linda and Michael break down the realities of indie film distribution, the importance of fair deals, and how accessibility, transparency, and community-building set Indie Rights apart. They also dive into the evolving landscape of AVOD, TVOD, and SVOD platforms, the critical role of marketing, and why filmmakers themselves—not just their films—are the brand.If you’re an indie filmmaker navigating the challenges of getting your work seen, this episode offers candid insights, practical advice, and encouragement straight from two industry veterans.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As you know, I'm always talking about distribution and the
importance of getting your films in front of audiences. Today,
we have one of the leading distributors in the indie
film world who are going to explain how indie film
distribution really works. If you want to be a successful
indie filmmaker, you need to know a lot about not
(00:21):
just the production of movies, but the business. We are
going to tell you the truth and reality of what
really happens in the indie film business. So welcome Linda
Nelson Michael Madison of Indie Rights. You guys are one
of the premiere film distributors of independent feature films and
(00:45):
I have known you for a long time, and ironically
there's a lot of connections which we'll get into as
we talk. But I appreciate you coming on because a
lot of the listeners really struggle with distribution. As you know,
you deal with a lot of indie filmmakers, and I
feel like you represent a lot of indie films and
(01:05):
open up a lot of opportunities for indie filmmakers. So
I wanted to have you on and just talk to
you about the indie film business. So can you take
a minute just introduce yourselves into your background.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Michael Madison, a filmmaker, started the business with Linda. Our
first film that we made was an Imax film called
Instinct Bigger Than Live. We did the distribute showing that also,
and tell lind and I met each other from there. We,
you know, we thought we could raise money for another film,
another Imax film. We were trying to make a motocross
(01:38):
film and kind of hit rock bottom. We couldn't find
any money.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And so we're talking like what timeframes.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So that was about two thousand and two. About when this,
I think the stock market was not doing so well then.
So from there we had to kind of regroup, get
day jobs and start over. I started taking acting classes
and trying to figure out what we're gonna do. And
we started working at a public storage that was our
day job. We did that because it offered us a
place to live. And uh, this sounds like.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
The Kurt Warner story, American hero, credible story bagging groceries
that becomes an NFL quarterback, And you guys, you know,
we're experienced it.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Also, when filmmakers are upset, you know that they're not
making studio films. We understand you know where they're coming from.
But from there we made an inpint of film that
we financed with our own credit cards, got into dances
with films. There was a you know, the film doesn't
stand up today because we were using the Kennon XL
one s and it's just, you know, it just doesn't
look good. Audio wasn't great either because we didn't know
(02:37):
what we were doing, but we did. It was a
SAG films. We learned how to do the SAG contracts.
We had SAG actors. We used our credit cards, so
that was a very bad thing and it took forever,
but you got to learn the hard way. I'm glad
we did it because we wouldn't be here today. But
we finally paid off that credit card and we decided
that film. We decided to do another film and got
(02:59):
ourselves into another pickle. But we used a red camera
for that that We were the first independent film to
use Adobe Premiere with the red because before that they
were using the final cut final cut. So we our
person that made our editing system, I think that's who
hooked us up with Adobe, an Video and Nvidia, and
(03:21):
uh we figured out an error that the editing system
was doing it kept saving so your your whole hard
drive would be full. So Nvidia came down back then
and helped us out when we were at public storage
and made some commercials that helped paid off the uh
the film. But during that whole time we started our
distribution company. When we were at Dancing with Films, we
(03:43):
met a lot of other filmmakers that didn't have distribution
deal and h we tried to get fired. We tried
to get distribution deals with a lot of distributors, but
the deals were so bad that you would never Yeah,
they were.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Just we're going to talk about bad deal.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, So we decided to hold onto our rights. Yeah,
we made attested a lot of the digital platforms. That's
how we got our foot in the door to be
with two B which at the time was ad Rise.
I was the company, and we made attest to a
bunch of platforms before that Amazon and Amazon Google, and
so that's how we got our foot in the door.
And then slowly over time we just started getting more
(04:17):
and more films. We went to American Film Market and
back then you could be at the swimming pool. You
could get a table out there and you can hold
that table all day long, and Linda would go up
into the rooms. She would get a half day pass
or a half market pass, and she would talk to
people and we just started from there and wow, slowly
over time, I did not know that our catalog quick
(04:39):
to start.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Linda, what's your background?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Well, I started out I was a math major in
college with an art minor. So I've been kind of
conflicted between left and right brain my entire life, and
I was I was too afraid that I wouldn't be
able to make a decent life as an artist. So
I decided to go down the math route. And that
was when computers were really just starting. So I was
(05:03):
supposed to go to IBM and start working for IBM,
but instead there were race riots where their headquarters were
down in New Jersey, and so I got a job
at a local regional bank and I was their first
female management training. I got into a banking route and
became an international banker, and I wound up living outside
(05:25):
the country for eight years. I lived in Saudi Arabia,
I lived in Beirut, I lived in London, and so
I got a really good, strong financial background in banking,
but I realized I wasn't happy there and it wasn't
what I wanted, so I moved back to the United States.
I got a partner who was interested in building movie
(05:47):
theaters in real estate, and so because I had done
some real estate development while I was in the investment banking,
I thought that might be a great path. And in
that process, we had several projects that we were going
to start construction on and we needed a very special
movie for it, and so we were lucky enough to
(06:08):
get a contact with in Sync, and that was how
Michael and I got together, was to make that movie
that was going to premiere at these Imax theaters. Now,
at the time, all of the IMEX films were only
in science museums, but we had this brilliant idea we
were going to start putting them in urban entertainment complexes
like City Corp. And Mall of America and different various
(06:33):
entertainment complexes.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Now that's normal, and had to build the screens though.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Right, So we had a construction plan to build about
six or seven theaters, and I was traveling all around
doing that, and then my partner got a brain tumor
and he wound up having to shut down all of
those construction projects. So there we were. We were already
had the plans to film the movie, and Michael and
I were going on the road within sync in this big,
(06:59):
huge crew, and we hired the best people on that
movie because we were very fortunate to have a single
investor that gave us five million dollars for that film.
And it was at the end of the dotcom bubble
and he had sold his company for a lot of
money and so and no one thought, you know, that
(07:20):
that project could fail, so he gave us a five
million dollars. We hired John Bailey, who did The Big
Chill and lots of other huge, big films. He was
the DP on it. Chris Wagner, who's edited everything from
True Romance to all of the Fast and Furious films,
did the editing on it, and the film came out gorgeous,
but we only had a two year window to distribute it.
(07:42):
We did that, and because the theaters weren't built, it
only showed in science museums, but it was all over
the world, and Michael did all of the theatrical engagements.
He did all the bookings at the theaters, and it
played in about, you know, fifty theaters around the world.
We went to some of those in like Frankfort, New York,
(08:03):
and so it was amazing experience. But through that we
fell in love with films, and that's how we wound up.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
But then I decided you wanted to represent other like well.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Then, so then what happened was we we fell in
love with the whole thing of making films, but we
wanted to be more hands on. We had gotten exposed
as the executive producers on this film to all aspects
of it, but we didn't do any of the work,
you know, the actual filmmaking. So we wanted to do that.
And so while we were at public storage and living
(08:36):
on site. Once the storage facility closed at six o'clock
at night time, that became our movie studio. And we
made two feature films there, six national commercials, and learned
how to do everything. I was a cinematographer on the
first one, Michael directed and starred in it. But we
(08:56):
wound up, you know, making two legitimate films and then
finding other indie filmmakers that didn't know anything about distribution,
and so we decided we were probably just out of
being naive, that we could go to the American film market.
With a bunch of these films that we gathered up
at dances with films and try to sell them. Luckily
(09:18):
we did. We were able to sell a couple of
films and we said, oh, we can do this distribution
to it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Was it called Indie Rights at that American Film marketer?
When did indie rights actually become an dusty once?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Once we made a sale at the American Film Market,
we needed an entity, so we we then actually incorporated.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Right, I think we're calling it Nelson.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
It was Nelson Madison Film for a couple of years, right.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Right, So Indie Rights, now, I'm going to say, is
one of the premiere distributors of independent films. From my
perspective as an independent filmmaker, there's a reason for it.
There's a few reasons, and I'm going to pitch you
a little bit and.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Then you can add to it. Right.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Number one is you're actually accessible, like you return emails,
you return phone calls. I don't know if you remember this,
but a few weeks ago I also teach at you know,
JP Catholic, and one of our students reached out to
you and said, can you come and do like a
presentation of the class that was my class. But she
(10:19):
reached out and you had the courtesy to actually respond
to her as you do to me all the time,
and when I say, can I bring some students and
do this kind of stuff. So accessibility is a big
thing because a lot of distributors just ghost you. I
mean they just it's as though you send an email
or a phone call or something. It's like you didn't.
It never happen. It's just ghosting. So that's number one.
(10:40):
Number two, I think you give a very fair deal,
like twenty percent three year contract. Most people are asking for,
you know, seven, ten, fifteen years, which is ridiculous. Three
years is a very fair deal, and twenty percent is
amongst the lowest or fairest, you know, commission structures out there.
And I think you're very transparent with filmmakers. You say, look,
(11:03):
here's what we're going to do for you. We're going
to put you on these platforms. You're honest, you don't
guarantee that their films are going to sell because you
don't know, right you don't know what the audiences are
going to think. But I think you're straight up with people,
and I feel that that's not the case with all distributors.
So would you concur with and what would you add
to that?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yes, I think I think we have the fairest deal,
and probably because we started as filmmakers, we wanted to
have a contract that we would be comfortable signing. From
all of the various contracts we had seen from other distributors,
we picked apart all of the things that we thought
were very unfair. We thought long terms are unfair. If
(11:45):
you're good and you take care of your filmmakers and
you pay them and you give them reports, they're going
to want to stay with you.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Absolutely they will.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
That's why we have a three year term that rolls
over unless you want to leave. But very very few
people leave. Every once in a while, somebody thinks the
grass is greener, or occasionally maybe somebody has an opportunity
to do a big budget film. And of course we
you know, we want the best for our filmmakers. But
we have filmmakers that have been with us for ten
twelve years, that have four and five films with us,
(12:14):
and they keep coming back to us because you know,
they trust us, and that trust is very important, and
like you said, the accessibility is also extremely important. Another
thing that makes us unique is I think, and I
think we are the only company left that does not
charge expenses. We've always felt that we should run our business,
(12:35):
you know, based on the amount of commission that we make.
We charge twenty percent you get, the filmmaker gets eighty percent,
and we feel like, if you know, we should be
able to run the business out of our twenty percent,
and so we do. So we have very lean business operations.
And part of I think what allows us to be
(12:58):
lean is that we both are very kind of tech
oriented as well as artistic. And it goes back to
that left brain right bing brain situation. And Michael and
I complement each other very very well. H He leans
more to the artistic side and I lead more to
the the business side. But we both, you know, have
(13:19):
some of both. So that has really helped us.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
To We do the encoding and the delivery.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So you do the deliveries, you do that all your
say you don't use the third party vendors.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I do Amazon to be I do most of the
base the big ones. Sometimes if we do a sell
we also partnered with You can go about and talk
about this, but a Molten Moulten cloud dot com. It's
a it's a.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Really great content manager.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Content manager. Yeah, so if we need to deliver a
large amount of files to a new platform in Spain,
we use them.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
But you you are hands on in terms of because
I think a lot of other distributors use third party
service companies or aggregators.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
That's super expensive too. Yeah, so we don't do that.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I think what there's a big misconception, and I think
this is an important content for filmk new filmmakers to understand.
There are distributors, there are sales agents. There are producers,
reps and aggregators, and they're very different animals. Aggregators are
people that you pay to put up put your films.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
They're just a technical service company.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
It's like it's a post it's a business at post
production houses they've gotten into. So there's that. Sales agents
are salespeople. They don't have big computers like we have,
you know, six big computers in our office and they're
running twenty four to seven uploading you know, to content
to platforms or to our cloud based content management system.
(14:45):
But sales agents are just sales agents and they have
to once you give them a film, they've got to
take it to someone like us. Or to a post
house to get the encoding and delivery. And of course
they're not going to pay for that, They're going to
make the filmmaker pay for that. So that's the way
they have to charge back to the filmmaker.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
What about producers reps? How would you now?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Producers reps usually charge usually charge a fee, and they
can be extremely helpful for people, especially like if say
you live in Indiana and you know nothing about Hollywood
or how the business works, but you love making movies, right,
it can be helpful for you to have someone to
you know, hold your hand around and walk you through
the process and it can be well worth it. And
(15:27):
so we work with a couple of different producers reps
that bring films to us.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But and so, but you are a distry, are an
actual license the rights, you take them for a period
of time, you do the delivery yourself, which I didn't
even realize that that's amazing. So meaning that you bear
the costs of what an aggregator would otherwise charge or
like cap Post.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
That way we don't have to charge the filmmakers and
it saves a lot of time because we don't have
to then redeliver that the content to a post and
then they goes in their queue. However, they might have
other projects in front of you, so all of that
like slows down the process and it adds cost.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Now, on the marketing side, I know that you publish
this like fifty page document because you do encourage your
filmmakers to do marketing for their films, and you're pretty
honest with them saying we're not going to You're not
going to do it. They need to do it, but
here's what you should do, or you we'll do it,
but you'll have to charge them for that, right, Well, no,
we charge.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
We don't charge accommodation. We have to work together. So
if you make a skateboarding film, you better know that
skateboarding community and you better have a connection to that community.
And then we market together. So they'll tag us an Instagram,
a post or anything like that, and we try to
market together. It's really Instagram, Facebook, and we do a.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Huge amount of marketing ourselves. I mean, if you look
at our social media where we have a huge following
on Instagram. On Facebook, we have a YouTube channel with
seven hundred thousand subscribers, so we're constantly marketing and not
only do we do marketing to the your audience. A
(17:06):
lot of our marketing is B to B marketing. In
other words, we have to market your film to foreign
buyers and to platforms, and so we do paid ads
at the markets we go to Can. We go to
a f M broadcast screen, so we're doing full page
ads and free ads.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Here.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Hold that up so the camera can see.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We're also doing a full pay full ad in Can
this year on one of the.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Pillars, totally beautiful, and we do a printed catalog for
the buyers.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
And so so when I was talking marketing, so that's
the B two B which is the B to B
part getting the film placed and positioned, but awareness.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
The B two C part.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
We are very we we we we post about every
film on all of our social media and we give you.
We give the filmmakers, like you said, a fifty page
online marketing guidebook that shows you how to set up
your marketing and a concept I think that a lot
of filmmakers really miss out on is they think that
(18:18):
that their movie is a brand, and they try to
make a brand out of their movie, and that's a
big mistake. What filmmakers have to realize is that the
filmmaker is the brand. And so as a result, you
want to build a brand for yourself or it could
be your production company. And so for platforms like YouTube
and Instagram, you want to build an audience for you
(18:40):
as a filmmaker. When your next movie comes out, you've
already got the audience that you built for the first movie.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Do you think people remember who you are?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
They know, they will over time, they will.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
They will. I mean right now, if Christopher Nolan makes
a movie, you want to go seek, You want to
go see it, right, But do you think anybody knew
who he was when he made his first movie?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
But I don't think, sking, is this a Christopher Nolan film?
Speaker 3 (19:01):
So they know they weren't. But over time you build
an audience, right and and and when you're collecting subscribers
and audience in that space. So we now have you know,
filmmakers that have been making movies for ten years, they've
got an audience. You know, so films right for example,
(19:23):
right exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
What well Braave Films. I think they have five films
with us. Yeah, every time they make a film, somebody
the audience is looking for it.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Really, they're waiting for it now face a.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Certain genre that they deal in. Is it just they
make engaging films.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
They started with kind of like crime films kind of
and now they're more drama than but doing everything.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I think they're going to do a kid's film, right,
we're just about.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
To do They're going to do a kids film. And
but the thing that's great about them is they've now
have built a community. They have a Facebook group of
all best Amazon, Prime and two B movies. It has
over seven hundred and fifty thousand people in it and
they promote each other's films and it's just all indie filmmakers.
(20:13):
And he's built that community in less than two years.
That really is, you know, truly what can make independent films.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
We talk about that all the time. It's just easier
said than done. I mean that takes a lot of time,
a lot of effort.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
It's like anything, it's one step at a time, and
you can feel overwhelmed if you think of it as
the huge whole thing. But if you just you know,
like break it down into small tasks and take one step.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
At a time, it happens.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And it's what has how our company group we now
have over eight hundred filmmakers in our own private group
that's only indie rights filmmakers, and we support each other
with reviews, right and sharing resources.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
You see, have your own little community.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
We have our all.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That's amazing. So you have this big YouTube channel YouTube,
you know. I always talk about it as the biggest
A vo D platform in the world, and it is
the most accessible one, obviously because everybody can access it. However,
not everybody can monetize on it. You have to have
a certain amount of activity and subscriber base and that
type of thing. But you also put films out onto
(21:19):
all the other streaming platforms. I mean, you're certainly dealing
with all the A v o D platforms. I'm sure
the transactional ones. Let's just get this out of the
way to start. Indie films aren't really going onto svo
D platforms anymore, are they.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Prime SPoD Shutter is Spot. There are tons of tons
of specialty SVOD channels.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
I don't think you're going to make much money with
Spot anymore.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So that's not the target. I don't think so, because
the deals aren't that great.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yes it's not.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
But we still have films that can do nicely on
t vodka.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Well before we get to TV, I want to get
rid of svod. Okay, should filmmakers still aspire to get
onto Netflix.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Or anything like that? Netflix and Hulu both require exclusivity and.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
They're really making their own projects so and and they
don't offer you much money, so they're you know, it's
not ideal for.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
An indie filmmaker. Our theory has always been beyond as
many platforms as you can because people have different view
If you have it, somebody will just watch on.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
When Netflix first started, they wanted all the independent films
right now they built that's they're doing that for other
other territories like maybe uh, Saudi Arabia. If you're a
filmmaker for some Saudi Arabia, they'll license your film. Or Italy, yeah,
because they need because they need content. But once they
don't need that, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Let's good talk about transactional Is it dead? Is it alive?
Everybody's got different opinions as to where their transactions work.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
It's alive, and we start with a TVO window. It
works best for people that have built an audience for
their film.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
So is it is it best on Apple or Amazon?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Amazon? For Teava I think is the best. Uh, but
we also use Google Play YouTube movies, right. So those
those are the primary places for TiVo, and there's a
reason you want to be on there because sometimes you know,
a filmmaker will say, oh, I just want to be
you know, skip TVO and go straight to TV. It's
(23:17):
very important to be on Amazon because the big platforms
they want to know, what's how many Amazon reviews you have?
What is your score on Amazon? What is your rating
on Amazon? And how what is your IMDb rating? Right?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Hopefully hopefully well right.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So so that's that's become a requirement now for you
to get on some of the pick your platforms, say
like Pluto or Fandango. Uh, they're asking now for those scores.
So that's why we always encourage people to start with that.
And if you don't, you know, if you don't do
well on TIVA, then we get going on the AVAD
(23:58):
fairly quickly.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Just for viewers who don't know, tvot's Transactional Video on
demand AVOD advertising Video on demand SPOT subscription. We've talked
about a million times.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Right now there's a new little wrinkle that I can
talk about that we're very excited about. Another reason that
you want to make sure you do some focus on
Amazon is that you want to do well enough there
that they choose you to be on Amazon Prime, which
is their S five. Now what's happening is, and we
(24:27):
are part of their beta test for this again, they
are actually dubbing our films into foreign languages. So now,
like if you look at a film called long Lost,
and that's good for your listeners to see what it's like. Okay,
if you go on Amazon and look at the film
long Lost, you will see up in the upper right
(24:50):
hand corner that you can choose the audio language that
you want.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Coming languages.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Well, they're planning on doing thirty languages. But the beta
test is.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Are they doing is this AI dubbing or is this
real dubbing.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
It's human with AI assist as opposed to AI with humans.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
It's very good.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I've seen seen some of the demos.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
So so we're so excited, you know, to be a
part of that. And if it's successful, then they're going
to expand on that. I don't know when they'll make
it available to other people, but we were very excited.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
No, that's that is very excited. I mean it makes
it way more the world, way more accessible.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Now, which opens up you know, another whole line. We
were working with four companies now on dubbing, various kinds
of dubbing deals, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So what about on Ava? Is there a lot of
dubbing going on? Like are you going into various territories
also in different languages on the EVA? Yes, so okay,
so now avat right, it is still probably the primary
area of your distribution.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
I would say that our largest revenue generally.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Having a YouTube, which with the capacity that you have
seven hundred thousand subscribers and I'm sure lots of films,
so you're obviously monetizing on YouTube. Is YouTube a better
platform now than say two B would be or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
No, I mean it just YouTube's really different than all
the other platforms because you have to keep feeding the beast,
and if you don't have a film being published every week,
the money starts going down. So it's it's YouTube's a
very sensitive when you for changes to the algorithm.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
But it also has community guys.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, it has community guidelines. You cannot put R rated
films right, you have to a lot of times the
filmmaker needs to cut out the sex, so right before
the sex happens, you know, cut to the next scene.
What about language language, If you have a multiple F bombs,
you can't use the gay slurs. You can't. That's automatically
you can't do that. But I always tell the filmmakers
(26:54):
just to lower the volume. You know some films on
YouTube that makes the exact same amount of money on to.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
B and sometimes the pay rate is higher.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Yeah, someone asked me about it when I was doing
a coaching call and we looked at three different films,
and on two of them the pay rate on to
B was like five six dollars range, but on YouTube
it was eight to nine dollars range. But that varies,
and because they have these community guidelines on YouTube, I
(27:24):
would say only about half of our films really can
go on there. So what we're suggesting to people now
is to actually make a network version of your film
so that we.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I do that with all my films. I shoot what
I call the director's cut and then the release cut.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
That way we can get more of them on our
YouTube channel. Yeah, and it's in two hundred countries.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Too.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, that's amazing. So, I mean, so the reach is gigantic.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
They have ten percent of all streaming worldwide, so yes,
so so it's actually over ten percent. It's not quite
eleven percent, but like ten point seven percent. Then next
is Netflix, they have seven point five percent. But then
you've got Amazon and Roku channel and tub, which if
(28:14):
you don't do Netflix, but you do all the other
ones that you can do, brings you up to like
three or four times the size of the Netflix audience,
which is another good reason not to do Netflix. If
you're an indie film, so you can get up close
to twenty percent of streaming if you go just on
those four channels. Apple is tiny, doesn't even make the
(28:35):
top ten. It used to be when we started, when
we started, when we started Home, when we started, most
of our revenue came from there. Yeah, you know, but
that's changed over the years that it became Amazon became
the primary revenue generator. Then now it's switched to tub
and I expect that YouTube will become the dominant revenue
(28:56):
generator just simply because of its size and its reach.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Right right now, in terms of like the revenue split,
I mean, it's all pennies and half of pennies and
all this kind of stuff. But you know it's volume something,
it's volume, right, So are our filmmakers making money? Like
if you're making a low budget and let's talk about
budget levels, all right, So I'm going to call micro
budget one hundred thousand dollars or less, and then low
(29:21):
budget from one hundred to a million. One hundred thousand
to a million. That's low budget, all right, So we
don't have to talk beyond that. What is the sweet spot?
Should filmmaker? If you're making films for say a half
a million dollars, can they make their money back on eve?
Speaker 2 (29:36):
A lot of money? I know?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
So it is.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
It is possible, but not for.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
A long, long term. It's everything's changing all the time.
So right, that's a lot because I wouldn't suggest.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I mean, you're filmmakers, so you know you want to
spend some money, make a real film, pay your people.
You know you want to do it properly. So micro
budget filmmaking, although a lot of people do, it is
not necessarily sustainable for over and over and over because
how many favors can you pull over time?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
So you got it?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Well, you have to be very creative and you have
to wear a lot of hats and wear a lot
of We did a SAG film with permits for fifty
thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
It was really hard.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It was very very hard. Twenty two locations.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
What yes, well we had we also had students that
were helping us out, so that that kind of we.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Had we had. We we did. But what we did
was we used some very creative producing. We did something
at the time which we got highly criticized for, which
was to post sides on was probably Facebook, and I
think it was Facebook. We posted sides for each roll
and said make a little video clip for your audition
(30:44):
and send it to us. We cast most of the
movie doing that. At the time, Uh, SAG. They weren't
happy about it because they want you to go to
hire a casting director, hiring a hiring a studio to
go do it in and that's expensive. So just that casting,
saving that on casting was amazing. Now that is standard.
(31:06):
Even big movie stars are making audition tapes, right, So.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yous are asking people the first round to do to
send in our self recorded things just ten.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
For the lead roles, and we wouldn't once we whittled
it down.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
So every quarter we usually pay out up to ten
people wire transfers and that's over twenty thousand dollars. The
other payments are made through PayPal, and anything less than
twenty thousand we can pay through PayPal. So we do
have a lot of people that make sometimes it make
one hundred thousand dollars a quarter.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
About one hundred thousand dollars a quarter. You can make
your money back on film.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Like the filmmaker we're telling you about, Devon Bray. He
makes thirty to fifty thousand dollars films and it's not
uncommon for him to make one hundred grand first quarter.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
First quarter, first quarter. So over the course of three
or four years.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
You make some real money.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That'll but he's already made his money back and has
more money for the next one, right, you know. And
so other ways that you can be creative when you're producing.
We posted the locations that we needed and we said,
if you find us a location for free, you'll get
a location scout credit on IMDb. We didn't pay anything
(32:20):
for anything. One one location which was used in Momento,
and it's a bar in Burbank, very famous bar Burbank.
They charged studios fourteen thousand dollars a day. They charged
us two hundred dollars. Why because one of those people
we're friends with the owner and hung out there and
so you know, you can employ those kinds. You have
(32:43):
to get creative when you're producing. You can just keep hiring.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
People, do you do?
Speaker 1 (32:48):
But when you're doing it?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
But we fed everybody, well it with SAG we had
actually got permits.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Right now, people, we're going to have to spend less
on films.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
But the cost of filming has gone down.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, because the digital I mean when you can make
exactly when.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
You could make a movie with a pair of glasses.
Already several people have made movies with their iPhones, but
you could literally use these glasses to make a movie.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, because the.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Sound is decent enough certainly for it is areable.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, well, what do you think the sweet spot is
for indie filmmakers who want to be sustained, like want
to make many films, not just one, and try to
make a crew out of it to get their money back.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I would not spend over two hundred thousand. I wouldn't
send over one hundred and fifty thousand if you if you could,
I think that's a good sweet spot. You know, when
somebody says they spend a few million dollars on a film,
it really turns us off because we know there's it's impossible.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Well, they'll be telling you the truth. They're guitar the
truth exactly, you know, five hundreds an hour or something
like that. But but I make films, right, and my
sweet spot is like seven hundred. I don't know if
that's sustainable anymore. And I don't think I'm excessive. I
just I like to pay fair way just everybody. I
like to shoot in seventeen to twenty days, which isn't excessing.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Oh that's good.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I like good spend.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
You're spending money.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Mostly labor, right, I mean I'll have a crew of
say thirty people. That mean you're going to say a
lot that's success, that's excessive, And maybe it is. Yeah,
I shoot with two cameras. You know you need thirty people.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Yeah right, I mean there are big movies being made
with much smaller.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You're like that, Yeah, you're right, So maybe that's you know.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
You know, I just think about how much you need
to make each month to pay back, pay it back,
and then your reality the reality comes.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, I don't know if avon is the model that's
going to you know, basically support that.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Well, here's here's the thing is, once it's in multiple languages,
I believe that the revenue generated outside the US will
be larger than the US revenue. Right now, ninety five
percent of our revenue is from the US, right But
once languages open up all of the territories, I think
(35:09):
you will see be able to sustain you know, six
seven eight thousand.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I feel that people like in other markets.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
And we've had films that have made six seven eight
hundred thousand, wouldn't they don't have names?
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Okay, no, forget name talent. I'm not talking with name talent. No, No,
name talent takes you into a whole other level.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Well, and they don't even make money. I mean, Mickey
seventeen is going to lose seventy five million dollars. It's
a total box office flop, and it costs like eighty
thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I know. But then on the flip side, I could
say Honora is going to make eighty eighty million dollars
and it was made but million. Yeah, yeah, so we.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Could, but that is an extreme outline.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Of course it is. No, it's this fifth.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Film and people will go see.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I don't like to talk about because because that's what
I call the Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
But he has an audience. Yeah, yeah, so maybe down
the line you can do that. That's why no one
should be making movies unless they're so dedicated to it
that that's what they have to do. That's what they
want to do with their life. They want to make
movies in it for the long haul.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
But they but they're not. It's not since the house
have to eat and pay rent.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
We have a day job. We had a day job
for ten years. It took us before we were able
to just survive on indie rights ten years.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Right, people are listening to this conversation, should they be
taking out of it. Make filmmaking sort of your hobby.
It's your passion, but it's your hobby. It's not going
to be your livelihood until it is your livelihood, until
it switches over and becomes your livelihood, which could take
ten years or longer.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
It could yeah, or it may never or may never.
Have Sean Baker saying he doesn't have any money, so okay,
So the actors are saying that they're in the oscars
are not.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
So that's a good segue to where you want to go.
So AI is changing the world, streaming vertical into all
this kind of stuff. So, so what what's the future
for indie filmmakers?
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Like?
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I believe that there will always be indie filmmaking because
people have a passion tell stories and to hear stories. Yes,
and and indie filmmakers have the ability to do go
into any direction. They're not subject to studio execs and
that type of thing. So it will always exist because
there's dreamers, and dreamers will do stuff.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
And long form will always exist.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I don't I totally agree that long form will exist
until I always say until the world becomes the matrix.
We're all hooked up to machines and we don't have
any human characteristics anymore. But let's not go there. So
what do you think for an indie filmmaker, I mean,
you're an indie filmmaker, what do you think the future
looks like?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I have no idea. I have no I mean maybe
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
But there's you know, tens of thousands or hundreds of
thousands of young people in film schools all over the
world who are aspiring to you know, win the Academy
or do that road, and should they find something else.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Here's here's the left brain, right brain kind of the pessimist.
I'm the optimist kind of thing, and and you're the
realist on this side. I think I'm a pragmatist. Yeah,
because all right, I can tell you right now we
have filmmakers that are making money and surviving just on filmmaking,
(38:16):
and then we have others with day jobs. And you know,
how much effort you want to put into it is
really really important. If a filmmaker says to me, oh,
I don't like social media, I don't want to do
that part of it, we won't even take their film
because it's impossible. You You, you have to embrace social
media and marketing if you want to be a filmmaker.
(38:39):
So that's number one, if you're willing to do that,
you know. I believe that there will always be films
being made, you know, in one form or another, whether
it's you know, with this or with a big camera
or whatever. I think stories will always be told. And
back in the day when people sat around a campfire
telling stories, it's just Steve one.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Hundred percent agree with that. But when a young person
comes to you and says, I would like to make
a living as a filmmaker, what path should I do?
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Here?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
I have ten different options and rows.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
I would make sure that you can pay your bills first.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
So make sure you have a sustainable livelihood in some.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Other and start small and build on it, and you
might have a hit first first out time out right,
You don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, if you get lucky, but you can't build a
business planet getting luck.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
You need to be able to pay your bills.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Everybody luck here and there, but you can't depend have
a day job.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Make movies on the weekends. There's no reason you can't
do that. And then and then expand on that.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
What about the kinds of movies they should be making,
like they should be commercially viable type of thing.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yes, it helps cut out. Don't have so much sex
in the films we just turned We didn't turn down
a film, but we it's not for us a film
that just has to and too much, too many drugs, drug.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Use, just so an artist being very artistic.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yes, and we can't monetize that right now.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Market you have to remember that that advertisers have to
be willing to put ads on your movie because I
do believe for the foreseeable future that AVOD is going
to be where the revenue is generating. So you do
want to think about that. Now, look at every single
movie that Alfred Hitchcock made could go on our YouTube channel.
You think about Psycho and you know.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
The way excessively. You don't need to need.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
To have it. But but what you do need to
do is you need to have fast paced movies when
you have AVAD. If your movie is lagging and slow,
people are just going to bounce out, and then you're
getting paid based on the number of ads that get seen.
So you want somebody to get in, get engaged, and
stay in for the role. So that's sure they don't
go to their phone.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
That's the main thing. Soon as somebody goes to their phone,
they're going to click off.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Your moon, which is hard these days to I'm not
sure how you prevent that. I mean, go to any
restaurant and look at people. They're talking on their phones,
you know, I mean it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, well you know that's why. You know this movie
that just came out, Adolescence was very poignant. I don't
know if you had a chance to watch it on
Netflix and it's about how it's too much screen time
too early.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, you know, which is too bad. Yeah, But what
advice would you give because viewers.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Are My advice would would be to have a way
to pay your bills to start when you start out,
so that you know that you can not be stressed out.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Or don't leave your day job right or if.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
You have a day job, don't leave, don't leave that
at first. Think about who your audience is for your film.
For example, we received a beautiful film about someone's grandfather
who was dying of cancer. And it was a beautiful film,
but it's not what people want to watch, and you
have got to think about your audience ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I tell filmmakers they should think about who their audience
is at the inception.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Of when you're writing the idea phase. That's right.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Don't even bother with something that you can't identify an
audience for it. It's not like an audience is going
to pear magically after you make it if you couldn't
identify it before.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Horror, thrillers, crime, those are our good genres to be in,
and docs about food and travel. You know that any
any doc that would have a wide audience, don't do
something that has such a specific audience that there's not
enough people.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
But what about the faith based world? Are you dealing
in the faith based We have some.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
And it's a good sized audience. And those films generally
can go on a channel.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
They're just good, family, wholesome, inspiring films.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Or whatever, right and so yeah, so so that that works,
and keep your budget as low as possible. But you've
got to have the quality you know, you have to have.
You have to have good production value, good audio. But
story is the most important story.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
That's one thing that everybody needs to work on is
their poster because that's the clickbait for.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Some I do that though, do you help them with that?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
We could recommend it.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Because a lot of people just end up on Fiver
or something like that.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Yeah, there are some five artists that are good.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Actually, However, it's unfortunate that somebody spends, you know, one
hundred thousand dollars on a film and then they the
film may be great, and then the poster is just
nobody's going to click on the poster.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
When when you submit a film to us, if we
look at your poster and think it's bad.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
We'll tell you here, But will you say these people
try these people.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Recommendation?
Speaker 1 (43:30):
How much should somebody spend on a poster?
Speaker 3 (43:32):
You can, We have some, We have some companies as
low as two hundred and fifty dollars and some as
high as two thousand. So it just depends.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Well, if you we're using AI for their posters. Yeah,
but you can tell, you can tell.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yeah, you can tell, and you know, maybe people are
getting used to that. I don't know what about trailers,
how much should they I'm sure are people decent trailers
or are you helping with that?
Speaker 2 (43:54):
We don't.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
But if it's if we watch it and there's something
wrong that we're going to tell you. You can't have
any profanity in a trailer. You can't have anybody show
somebody shooting someone in a trailer. You know, you can't
have any sex in the trailer. So you have to
have basically what's considered g rated trailer should be under
two minutes and very fast moving and engaging. No dwelling
(44:18):
on moments or building in the trailer. No, it should
be fast, give some idea what it's about without giving away,
you know.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Although I've seen lots of trailers that have profanity, you know,
notms not on the platforms, amoretrical til you.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
Actually have multiple trailers so that for your promotional purposes,
you can do whatever you want, but you must have
a g rated trailer.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Trailers don't matter so much for the avoid platforms because
people are just taking the posters. They don't like it.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
They bounce exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
There's no financial commitment exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
So yeah, but the poster thing they're going through at
lightning speed.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
So it must be clickbait.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Big faces, big faces always faces.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Work really really well well, you know, so don't show
a little person on a beach. It looks like an
ant you know, yeah you can't, you know you? And
and no blurry uh, it's best if it's bright. And
the title art has to be very prominent. Oftentimes will
have posters rejected by the platforms because they'll say the
(45:19):
title is not readable. A lot of times people will
get very fancy artistic with their titles and it doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
It has to be readable, I mean, creating a posters
are in some ways more creative and artistic than making
the film. I mean, it's to think critical the lightning
speed that people go through it and to be able
to have something that they click that grabs you. I mean,
that's real.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
And don't don't be deceptive with your trailer because you
will get slammed in reviews if you make a trailer
and it doesn't it's not true to your movie. I've
seen some really horrendous comments. Yeah, yeah, well there used
to be. There used to be distributors who would like
make a poster and the person on the on the
(46:02):
poster wasn't even in the movie, you know, just to
be able to sell it at the market and stuff. Right,
So there were a lot.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
I know, we know the companies who you know, they
had the greatest posters and the greatest promo reals if
their movies even existed. Often they didn't. Okay, well, I
don't want to take too much more time. So I
believe that your company is doing like a justice to
independent filmmakers. You're giving a fair deal, you're very transparent,
(46:31):
you're paying the costs. I mean, you're doing a lot
of stuff that other companies aren't doing. So this is
your opportunity to kind of pitch yourselves because you know,
I mean, you're already out there and people know about you.
But you know, if there's other viewers who are trying
to figure out how to navigate distribution or find a distributor,
why come to you.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Well, I think, first of all, we've been in business
for twenty three years. We have over eight hundred filmmakers
that have been loyal to us because they trust us,
and we have a personal relationship with our filmmakers, which
is really important. We are global, you know, we will
try to sell your film all over the world. We're innovative.
(47:12):
All of our content is up in the cloud and
easily deliverable to anybody who wants to license it from us,
and we co marke it with you, and we will
teach you. And we have a private community of filmmakers,
and we pay eighty percent and don't charge any expenses.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
So we just try to be as fair as possible.
That's what fairs. I mean.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
You said you use the word trust, use the word fair.
I think that's what people are looking for. It's just
kind of hard to find it. I meant you do it.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
And and there's an easy way around that. There's a
thing called IMDb. IMDb every filmmaker should pay to have
that service IMDb pro, because you can look up a
film that's that's on there, you can look up need
distributor that's that's out there that you're considering working with,
and all you have to do is call some of
the producers that have worked with them. If you will
(48:08):
just do that one thing, you can spend one day
doing that and you will either hear good things about
that distributor or you'll have somebody crying on the other
end of the phone, yes, which we actually experience.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
You can do that through if to like through the
American Film Marketing they have the film catalog and they
list a lot of the companies and the films.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
And all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
But IMDb pro has followed.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Somebody spend with the company for a year.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Make sure you cake shalk to somebody who has been
in distribution for a year or two with them, because
then you know, the first six months somebody's with them,
they don't know if they're going to get paid, right,
But if you've been with them for a year.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
That's good advice.
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Like it's at least five, at least five you're.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Going to go on a date with somebody, ask a friend.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
And as a distributor who to call, right, go on
IMDb and pick some films and especially to try and
pick films that are like yours. If you have a
crime look for some crime thrillers. Call them, find out
what they experience. What you want to ask them is
are they accessible, like you said, very very important. Do
they return your phone calls and your emails?
Speaker 2 (49:10):
You know?
Speaker 3 (49:10):
How often do they pay you? Are you getting paid?
You asked, they have to ask them how much? But
are you happy with what you're what you're getting in
your relationship with them?
Speaker 2 (49:19):
Are you getting details?
Speaker 1 (49:21):
There's one question you can ask that it'll cover it all.
Are you going to run and hide and break your
deal and not renew or are you going to renew?
And if you're going to renew, then more things are
right than rot right. And like you say, you get
a pretty high renewal.
Speaker 3 (49:34):
Rate, more than ninety five percent.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
That's pretty high. And then some of them are just
you know, disengaged or going on to other things. That's
very good. Okay, well listen, I want to take thank
you very much for coming on. It's being super insightful.
You're super active in the business. You're serving a lot
of indie filmmakers. So I want to thank you for
that on behalf of the indie film world, and uh,
(49:57):
just thanks a lot for kind of being front and
honest with everything.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
Our pleasure to have been here.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Are you gonna be in can No, okay, we'll be
in can If anybody's watching this and wants to visit us.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, I'd like to go to Can.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Well, we will see you at the next American Film Market.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yes, definitely. If anybody's in can Palay twenty one oh one,
that's where we're gonna be.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yeah, okay, thanks again.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
Oh and you can find us at indie Rights dot com.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Indy Okay, I asked you to company indie rates dot com.
I think that the most important thing when you're looking
for a distributor is somebody who's gonna the two things
we just talked about. Is going to be transparent, is
going to be honest, and uh, sometimes you don't know
if that's the case. And as Linda and Michael suggested,
just to ask other filmmakers who have dealt with distributors
(50:46):
and they'll tell you the truth. The distributor is going
to tell you what they want you to hear, but
the filmmaker is going to tell you what their experience was,
so good luck
As you know, I'm always talking about distribution and the
importance of getting your films in front of audiences. Today,
we have one of the leading distributors in the indie
film world who are going to explain how indie film
distribution really works. If you want to be a successful
indie filmmaker, you need to know a lot about not
(00:21):
just the production of movies, but the business. We are
going to tell you the truth and reality of what
really happens in the indie film business. So welcome Linda
Nelson Michael Madison of Indie Rights. You guys are one
of the premiere film distributors of independent feature films and
(00:45):
I have known you for a long time, and ironically
there's a lot of connections which we'll get into as
we talk. But I appreciate you coming on because a
lot of the listeners really struggle with distribution. As you know,
you deal with a lot of indie filmmakers, and I
feel like you represent a lot of indie films and
(01:05):
open up a lot of opportunities for indie filmmakers. So
I wanted to have you on and just talk to
you about the indie film business. So can you take
a minute just introduce yourselves into your background.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Michael Madison, a filmmaker, started the business with Linda. Our
first film that we made was an Imax film called
Instinct Bigger Than Live. We did the distribute showing that also,
and tell lind and I met each other from there. We,
you know, we thought we could raise money for another film,
another Imax film. We were trying to make a motocross
(01:38):
film and kind of hit rock bottom. We couldn't find
any money.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And so we're talking like what timeframes.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So that was about two thousand and two. About when this,
I think the stock market was not doing so well then.
So from there we had to kind of regroup, get
day jobs and start over. I started taking acting classes
and trying to figure out what we're gonna do. And
we started working at a public storage that was our
day job. We did that because it offered us a
place to live. And uh, this sounds like.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
The Kurt Warner story, American hero, credible story bagging groceries
that becomes an NFL quarterback, And you guys, you know,
we're experienced it.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Also, when filmmakers are upset, you know that they're not
making studio films. We understand you know where they're coming from.
But from there we made an inpint of film that
we financed with our own credit cards, got into dances
with films. There was a you know, the film doesn't
stand up today because we were using the Kennon XL
one s and it's just, you know, it just doesn't
look good. Audio wasn't great either because we didn't know
(02:37):
what we were doing, but we did. It was a
SAG films. We learned how to do the SAG contracts.
We had SAG actors. We used our credit cards, so
that was a very bad thing and it took forever,
but you got to learn the hard way. I'm glad
we did it because we wouldn't be here today. But
we finally paid off that credit card and we decided
that film. We decided to do another film and got
(02:59):
ourselves into another pickle. But we used a red camera
for that that We were the first independent film to
use Adobe Premiere with the red because before that they
were using the final cut final cut. So we our
person that made our editing system, I think that's who
hooked us up with Adobe, an Video and Nvidia, and
(03:21):
uh we figured out an error that the editing system
was doing it kept saving so your your whole hard
drive would be full. So Nvidia came down back then
and helped us out when we were at public storage
and made some commercials that helped paid off the uh
the film. But during that whole time we started our
distribution company. When we were at Dancing with Films, we
(03:43):
met a lot of other filmmakers that didn't have distribution
deal and h we tried to get fired. We tried
to get distribution deals with a lot of distributors, but
the deals were so bad that you would never Yeah,
they were.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Just we're going to talk about bad deal.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, So we decided to hold onto our rights. Yeah,
we made attested a lot of the digital platforms. That's
how we got our foot in the door to be
with two B which at the time was ad Rise.
I was the company, and we made attest to a
bunch of platforms before that Amazon and Amazon Google, and
so that's how we got our foot in the door.
And then slowly over time we just started getting more
(04:17):
and more films. We went to American Film Market and
back then you could be at the swimming pool. You
could get a table out there and you can hold
that table all day long, and Linda would go up
into the rooms. She would get a half day pass
or a half market pass, and she would talk to
people and we just started from there and wow, slowly
over time, I did not know that our catalog quick
(04:39):
to start.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Linda, what's your background?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Well, I started out I was a math major in
college with an art minor. So I've been kind of
conflicted between left and right brain my entire life, and
I was I was too afraid that I wouldn't be
able to make a decent life as an artist. So
I decided to go down the math route. And that
was when computers were really just starting. So I was
(05:03):
supposed to go to IBM and start working for IBM,
but instead there were race riots where their headquarters were
down in New Jersey, and so I got a job
at a local regional bank and I was their first
female management training. I got into a banking route and
became an international banker, and I wound up living outside
(05:25):
the country for eight years. I lived in Saudi Arabia,
I lived in Beirut, I lived in London, and so
I got a really good, strong financial background in banking,
but I realized I wasn't happy there and it wasn't
what I wanted, so I moved back to the United States.
I got a partner who was interested in building movie
(05:47):
theaters in real estate, and so because I had done
some real estate development while I was in the investment banking,
I thought that might be a great path. And in
that process, we had several projects that we were going
to start construction on and we needed a very special
movie for it, and so we were lucky enough to
(06:08):
get a contact with in Sync, and that was how
Michael and I got together, was to make that movie
that was going to premiere at these Imax theaters. Now,
at the time, all of the IMEX films were only
in science museums, but we had this brilliant idea we
were going to start putting them in urban entertainment complexes
like City Corp. And Mall of America and different various
(06:33):
entertainment complexes.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Now that's normal, and had to build the screens though.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Right, So we had a construction plan to build about
six or seven theaters, and I was traveling all around
doing that, and then my partner got a brain tumor
and he wound up having to shut down all of
those construction projects. So there we were. We were already
had the plans to film the movie, and Michael and
I were going on the road within sync in this big,
(06:59):
huge crew, and we hired the best people on that
movie because we were very fortunate to have a single
investor that gave us five million dollars for that film.
And it was at the end of the dotcom bubble
and he had sold his company for a lot of
money and so and no one thought, you know, that
(07:20):
that project could fail, so he gave us a five
million dollars. We hired John Bailey, who did The Big
Chill and lots of other huge, big films. He was
the DP on it. Chris Wagner, who's edited everything from
True Romance to all of the Fast and Furious films,
did the editing on it, and the film came out gorgeous,
but we only had a two year window to distribute it.
(07:42):
We did that, and because the theaters weren't built, it
only showed in science museums, but it was all over
the world, and Michael did all of the theatrical engagements.
He did all the bookings at the theaters, and it
played in about, you know, fifty theaters around the world.
We went to some of those in like Frankfort, New York,
(08:03):
and so it was amazing experience. But through that we
fell in love with films, and that's how we wound up.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
But then I decided you wanted to represent other like well.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Then, so then what happened was we we fell in
love with the whole thing of making films, but we
wanted to be more hands on. We had gotten exposed
as the executive producers on this film to all aspects
of it, but we didn't do any of the work,
you know, the actual filmmaking. So we wanted to do that.
And so while we were at public storage and living
(08:36):
on site. Once the storage facility closed at six o'clock
at night time, that became our movie studio. And we
made two feature films there, six national commercials, and learned
how to do everything. I was a cinematographer on the
first one, Michael directed and starred in it. But we
(08:56):
wound up, you know, making two legitimate films and then
finding other indie filmmakers that didn't know anything about distribution,
and so we decided we were probably just out of
being naive, that we could go to the American film market.
With a bunch of these films that we gathered up
at dances with films and try to sell them. Luckily
(09:18):
we did. We were able to sell a couple of
films and we said, oh, we can do this distribution
to it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Was it called Indie Rights at that American Film marketer?
When did indie rights actually become an dusty once?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Once we made a sale at the American Film Market,
we needed an entity, so we we then actually incorporated.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Right, I think we're calling it Nelson.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
It was Nelson Madison Film for a couple of years, right.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Right, So Indie Rights, now, I'm going to say, is
one of the premiere distributors of independent films. From my
perspective as an independent filmmaker, there's a reason for it.
There's a few reasons, and I'm going to pitch you
a little bit and.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Then you can add to it. Right.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Number one is you're actually accessible, like you return emails,
you return phone calls. I don't know if you remember this,
but a few weeks ago I also teach at you know,
JP Catholic, and one of our students reached out to
you and said, can you come and do like a
presentation of the class that was my class. But she
(10:19):
reached out and you had the courtesy to actually respond
to her as you do to me all the time,
and when I say, can I bring some students and
do this kind of stuff. So accessibility is a big
thing because a lot of distributors just ghost you. I
mean they just it's as though you send an email
or a phone call or something. It's like you didn't.
It never happen. It's just ghosting. So that's number one.
(10:40):
Number two, I think you give a very fair deal,
like twenty percent three year contract. Most people are asking for,
you know, seven, ten, fifteen years, which is ridiculous. Three
years is a very fair deal, and twenty percent is
amongst the lowest or fairest, you know, commission structures out there.
And I think you're very transparent with filmmakers. You say, look,
(11:03):
here's what we're going to do for you. We're going
to put you on these platforms. You're honest, you don't
guarantee that their films are going to sell because you
don't know, right you don't know what the audiences are
going to think. But I think you're straight up with people,
and I feel that that's not the case with all distributors.
So would you concur with and what would you add
to that?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yes, I think I think we have the fairest deal,
and probably because we started as filmmakers, we wanted to
have a contract that we would be comfortable signing. From
all of the various contracts we had seen from other distributors,
we picked apart all of the things that we thought
were very unfair. We thought long terms are unfair. If
(11:45):
you're good and you take care of your filmmakers and
you pay them and you give them reports, they're going
to want to stay with you.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Absolutely they will.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
That's why we have a three year term that rolls
over unless you want to leave. But very very few
people leave. Every once in a while, somebody thinks the
grass is greener, or occasionally maybe somebody has an opportunity
to do a big budget film. And of course we
you know, we want the best for our filmmakers. But
we have filmmakers that have been with us for ten
twelve years, that have four and five films with us,
(12:14):
and they keep coming back to us because you know,
they trust us, and that trust is very important, and
like you said, the accessibility is also extremely important. Another
thing that makes us unique is I think, and I
think we are the only company left that does not
charge expenses. We've always felt that we should run our business,
(12:35):
you know, based on the amount of commission that we make.
We charge twenty percent you get, the filmmaker gets eighty percent,
and we feel like, if you know, we should be
able to run the business out of our twenty percent,
and so we do. So we have very lean business operations.
And part of I think what allows us to be
(12:58):
lean is that we both are very kind of tech
oriented as well as artistic. And it goes back to
that left brain right bing brain situation. And Michael and
I complement each other very very well. H He leans
more to the artistic side and I lead more to
the the business side. But we both, you know, have
(13:19):
some of both. So that has really helped us.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
To We do the encoding and the delivery.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So you do the deliveries, you do that all your
say you don't use the third party vendors.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I do Amazon to be I do most of the
base the big ones. Sometimes if we do a sell
we also partnered with You can go about and talk
about this, but a Molten Moulten cloud dot com. It's
a it's a.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Really great content manager.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Content manager. Yeah, so if we need to deliver a
large amount of files to a new platform in Spain,
we use them.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
But you you are hands on in terms of because
I think a lot of other distributors use third party
service companies or aggregators.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
That's super expensive too. Yeah, so we don't do that.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I think what there's a big misconception, and I think
this is an important content for filmk new filmmakers to understand.
There are distributors, there are sales agents. There are producers,
reps and aggregators, and they're very different animals. Aggregators are
people that you pay to put up put your films.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
They're just a technical service company.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
It's like it's a post it's a business at post
production houses they've gotten into. So there's that. Sales agents
are salespeople. They don't have big computers like we have,
you know, six big computers in our office and they're
running twenty four to seven uploading you know, to content
to platforms or to our cloud based content management system.
(14:45):
But sales agents are just sales agents and they have
to once you give them a film, they've got to
take it to someone like us. Or to a post
house to get the encoding and delivery. And of course
they're not going to pay for that, They're going to
make the filmmaker pay for that. So that's the way
they have to charge back to the filmmaker.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
What about producers reps? How would you now?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Producers reps usually charge usually charge a fee, and they
can be extremely helpful for people, especially like if say
you live in Indiana and you know nothing about Hollywood
or how the business works, but you love making movies, right,
it can be helpful for you to have someone to
you know, hold your hand around and walk you through
the process and it can be well worth it. And
(15:27):
so we work with a couple of different producers reps
that bring films to us.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But and so, but you are a distry, are an
actual license the rights, you take them for a period
of time, you do the delivery yourself, which I didn't
even realize that that's amazing. So meaning that you bear
the costs of what an aggregator would otherwise charge or
like cap Post.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
That way we don't have to charge the filmmakers and
it saves a lot of time because we don't have
to then redeliver that the content to a post and
then they goes in their queue. However, they might have
other projects in front of you, so all of that
like slows down the process and it adds cost.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Now, on the marketing side, I know that you publish
this like fifty page document because you do encourage your
filmmakers to do marketing for their films, and you're pretty
honest with them saying we're not going to You're not
going to do it. They need to do it, but
here's what you should do, or you we'll do it,
but you'll have to charge them for that, right, Well, no,
we charge.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
We don't charge accommodation. We have to work together. So
if you make a skateboarding film, you better know that
skateboarding community and you better have a connection to that community.
And then we market together. So they'll tag us an Instagram,
a post or anything like that, and we try to
market together. It's really Instagram, Facebook, and we do a.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Huge amount of marketing ourselves. I mean, if you look
at our social media where we have a huge following
on Instagram. On Facebook, we have a YouTube channel with
seven hundred thousand subscribers, so we're constantly marketing and not
only do we do marketing to the your audience. A
(17:06):
lot of our marketing is B to B marketing. In
other words, we have to market your film to foreign
buyers and to platforms, and so we do paid ads
at the markets we go to Can. We go to
a f M broadcast screen, so we're doing full page
ads and free ads.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Here.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Hold that up so the camera can see.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We're also doing a full pay full ad in Can
this year on one of the.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Pillars, totally beautiful, and we do a printed catalog for
the buyers.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
And so so when I was talking marketing, so that's
the B two B which is the B to B
part getting the film placed and positioned, but awareness.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
The B two C part.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
We are very we we we we post about every
film on all of our social media and we give you.
We give the filmmakers, like you said, a fifty page
online marketing guidebook that shows you how to set up
your marketing and a concept I think that a lot
of filmmakers really miss out on is they think that
(18:18):
that their movie is a brand, and they try to
make a brand out of their movie, and that's a
big mistake. What filmmakers have to realize is that the
filmmaker is the brand. And so as a result, you
want to build a brand for yourself or it could
be your production company. And so for platforms like YouTube
and Instagram, you want to build an audience for you
(18:40):
as a filmmaker. When your next movie comes out, you've
already got the audience that you built for the first movie.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Do you think people remember who you are?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
They know, they will over time, they will.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
They will. I mean right now, if Christopher Nolan makes
a movie, you want to go seek, You want to
go see it, right, But do you think anybody knew
who he was when he made his first movie?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
But I don't think, sking, is this a Christopher Nolan film?
Speaker 3 (19:01):
So they know they weren't. But over time you build
an audience, right and and and when you're collecting subscribers
and audience in that space. So we now have you know,
filmmakers that have been making movies for ten years, they've
got an audience. You know, so films right for example,
(19:23):
right exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
What well Braave Films. I think they have five films
with us. Yeah, every time they make a film, somebody
the audience is looking for it.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Really, they're waiting for it now face a.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Certain genre that they deal in. Is it just they
make engaging films.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
They started with kind of like crime films kind of
and now they're more drama than but doing everything.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I think they're going to do a kid's film, right,
we're just about.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
To do They're going to do a kids film. And
but the thing that's great about them is they've now
have built a community. They have a Facebook group of
all best Amazon, Prime and two B movies. It has
over seven hundred and fifty thousand people in it and
they promote each other's films and it's just all indie filmmakers.
(20:13):
And he's built that community in less than two years.
That really is, you know, truly what can make independent films.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
We talk about that all the time. It's just easier
said than done. I mean that takes a lot of time,
a lot of effort.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
It's like anything, it's one step at a time, and
you can feel overwhelmed if you think of it as
the huge whole thing. But if you just you know,
like break it down into small tasks and take one step.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
At a time, it happens.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And it's what has how our company group we now
have over eight hundred filmmakers in our own private group
that's only indie rights filmmakers, and we support each other
with reviews, right and sharing resources.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
You see, have your own little community.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
We have our all.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That's amazing. So you have this big YouTube channel YouTube,
you know. I always talk about it as the biggest
A vo D platform in the world, and it is
the most accessible one, obviously because everybody can access it. However,
not everybody can monetize on it. You have to have
a certain amount of activity and subscriber base and that
type of thing. But you also put films out onto
(21:19):
all the other streaming platforms. I mean, you're certainly dealing
with all the A v o D platforms. I'm sure
the transactional ones. Let's just get this out of the
way to start. Indie films aren't really going onto svo
D platforms anymore, are they.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Prime SPoD Shutter is Spot. There are tons of tons
of specialty SVOD channels.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
I don't think you're going to make much money with
Spot anymore.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So that's not the target. I don't think so, because
the deals aren't that great.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yes it's not.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
But we still have films that can do nicely on
t vodka.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Well before we get to TV, I want to get
rid of svod. Okay, should filmmakers still aspire to get
onto Netflix.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Or anything like that? Netflix and Hulu both require exclusivity and.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
They're really making their own projects so and and they
don't offer you much money, so they're you know, it's
not ideal for.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
An indie filmmaker. Our theory has always been beyond as
many platforms as you can because people have different view
If you have it, somebody will just watch on.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
When Netflix first started, they wanted all the independent films
right now they built that's they're doing that for other
other territories like maybe uh, Saudi Arabia. If you're a
filmmaker for some Saudi Arabia, they'll license your film. Or Italy, yeah,
because they need because they need content. But once they
don't need that, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Let's good talk about transactional Is it dead? Is it alive?
Everybody's got different opinions as to where their transactions work.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
It's alive, and we start with a TVO window. It
works best for people that have built an audience for
their film.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
So is it is it best on Apple or Amazon?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Amazon? For Teava I think is the best. Uh, but
we also use Google Play YouTube movies, right. So those
those are the primary places for TiVo, and there's a
reason you want to be on there because sometimes you know,
a filmmaker will say, oh, I just want to be
you know, skip TVO and go straight to TV. It's
(23:17):
very important to be on Amazon because the big platforms
they want to know, what's how many Amazon reviews you have?
What is your score on Amazon? What is your rating
on Amazon? And how what is your IMDb rating? Right?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Hopefully hopefully well right.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So so that's that's become a requirement now for you
to get on some of the pick your platforms, say
like Pluto or Fandango. Uh, they're asking now for those scores.
So that's why we always encourage people to start with that.
And if you don't, you know, if you don't do
well on TIVA, then we get going on the AVAD
(23:58):
fairly quickly.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Just for viewers who don't know, tvot's Transactional Video on
demand AVOD advertising Video on demand SPOT subscription. We've talked
about a million times.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Right now there's a new little wrinkle that I can
talk about that we're very excited about. Another reason that
you want to make sure you do some focus on
Amazon is that you want to do well enough there
that they choose you to be on Amazon Prime, which
is their S five. Now what's happening is, and we
(24:27):
are part of their beta test for this again, they
are actually dubbing our films into foreign languages. So now,
like if you look at a film called long Lost,
and that's good for your listeners to see what it's like. Okay,
if you go on Amazon and look at the film
long Lost, you will see up in the upper right
(24:50):
hand corner that you can choose the audio language that
you want.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Coming languages.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Well, they're planning on doing thirty languages. But the beta
test is.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Are they doing is this AI dubbing or is this
real dubbing.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
It's human with AI assist as opposed to AI with humans.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
It's very good.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I've seen seen some of the demos.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
So so we're so excited, you know, to be a
part of that. And if it's successful, then they're going
to expand on that. I don't know when they'll make
it available to other people, but we were very excited.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
No, that's that is very excited. I mean it makes
it way more the world, way more accessible.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Now, which opens up you know, another whole line. We
were working with four companies now on dubbing, various kinds
of dubbing deals, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So what about on Ava? Is there a lot of
dubbing going on? Like are you going into various territories
also in different languages on the EVA? Yes, so okay,
so now avat right, it is still probably the primary
area of your distribution.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
I would say that our largest revenue generally.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Having a YouTube, which with the capacity that you have
seven hundred thousand subscribers and I'm sure lots of films,
so you're obviously monetizing on YouTube. Is YouTube a better
platform now than say two B would be or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
No, I mean it just YouTube's really different than all
the other platforms because you have to keep feeding the beast,
and if you don't have a film being published every week,
the money starts going down. So it's it's YouTube's a
very sensitive when you for changes to the algorithm.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
But it also has community guys.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, it has community guidelines. You cannot put R rated
films right, you have to a lot of times the
filmmaker needs to cut out the sex, so right before
the sex happens, you know, cut to the next scene.
What about language language, If you have a multiple F bombs,
you can't use the gay slurs. You can't. That's automatically
you can't do that. But I always tell the filmmakers
(26:54):
just to lower the volume. You know some films on
YouTube that makes the exact same amount of money on to.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
B and sometimes the pay rate is higher.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Yeah, someone asked me about it when I was doing
a coaching call and we looked at three different films,
and on two of them the pay rate on to
B was like five six dollars range, but on YouTube
it was eight to nine dollars range. But that varies,
and because they have these community guidelines on YouTube, I
(27:24):
would say only about half of our films really can
go on there. So what we're suggesting to people now
is to actually make a network version of your film
so that we.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I do that with all my films. I shoot what
I call the director's cut and then the release cut.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
That way we can get more of them on our
YouTube channel. Yeah, and it's in two hundred countries.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Too.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, that's amazing. So, I mean, so the reach is gigantic.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
They have ten percent of all streaming worldwide, so yes,
so so it's actually over ten percent. It's not quite
eleven percent, but like ten point seven percent. Then next
is Netflix, they have seven point five percent. But then
you've got Amazon and Roku channel and tub, which if
(28:14):
you don't do Netflix, but you do all the other
ones that you can do, brings you up to like
three or four times the size of the Netflix audience,
which is another good reason not to do Netflix. If
you're an indie film, so you can get up close
to twenty percent of streaming if you go just on
those four channels. Apple is tiny, doesn't even make the
(28:35):
top ten. It used to be when we started, when
we started, when we started Home, when we started, most
of our revenue came from there. Yeah, you know, but
that's changed over the years that it became Amazon became
the primary revenue generator. Then now it's switched to tub
and I expect that YouTube will become the dominant revenue
(28:56):
generator just simply because of its size and its reach.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Right right now, in terms of like the revenue split,
I mean, it's all pennies and half of pennies and
all this kind of stuff. But you know it's volume something,
it's volume, right, So are our filmmakers making money? Like
if you're making a low budget and let's talk about
budget levels, all right, So I'm going to call micro
budget one hundred thousand dollars or less, and then low
(29:21):
budget from one hundred to a million. One hundred thousand
to a million. That's low budget, all right, So we
don't have to talk beyond that. What is the sweet spot?
Should filmmaker? If you're making films for say a half
a million dollars, can they make their money back on eve?
Speaker 2 (29:36):
A lot of money? I know?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
So it is.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
It is possible, but not for.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
A long, long term. It's everything's changing all the time.
So right, that's a lot because I wouldn't suggest.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I mean, you're filmmakers, so you know you want to
spend some money, make a real film, pay your people.
You know you want to do it properly. So micro
budget filmmaking, although a lot of people do, it is
not necessarily sustainable for over and over and over because
how many favors can you pull over time?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
So you got it?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Well, you have to be very creative and you have
to wear a lot of hats and wear a lot
of We did a SAG film with permits for fifty
thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
It was really hard.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It was very very hard. Twenty two locations.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
What yes, well we had we also had students that
were helping us out, so that that kind of we.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Had we had. We we did. But what we did
was we used some very creative producing. We did something
at the time which we got highly criticized for, which
was to post sides on was probably Facebook, and I
think it was Facebook. We posted sides for each roll
and said make a little video clip for your audition
(30:44):
and send it to us. We cast most of the
movie doing that. At the time, Uh, SAG. They weren't
happy about it because they want you to go to
hire a casting director, hiring a hiring a studio to
go do it in and that's expensive. So just that casting,
saving that on casting was amazing. Now that is standard.
(31:06):
Even big movie stars are making audition tapes, right, So.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yous are asking people the first round to do to
send in our self recorded things just ten.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
For the lead roles, and we wouldn't once we whittled
it down.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
So every quarter we usually pay out up to ten
people wire transfers and that's over twenty thousand dollars. The
other payments are made through PayPal, and anything less than
twenty thousand we can pay through PayPal. So we do
have a lot of people that make sometimes it make
one hundred thousand dollars a quarter.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
About one hundred thousand dollars a quarter. You can make
your money back on film.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Like the filmmaker we're telling you about, Devon Bray. He
makes thirty to fifty thousand dollars films and it's not
uncommon for him to make one hundred grand first quarter.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
First quarter, first quarter. So over the course of three
or four years.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
You make some real money.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That'll but he's already made his money back and has
more money for the next one, right, you know. And
so other ways that you can be creative when you're producing.
We posted the locations that we needed and we said,
if you find us a location for free, you'll get
a location scout credit on IMDb. We didn't pay anything
(32:20):
for anything. One one location which was used in Momento,
and it's a bar in Burbank, very famous bar Burbank.
They charged studios fourteen thousand dollars a day. They charged
us two hundred dollars. Why because one of those people
we're friends with the owner and hung out there and
so you know, you can employ those kinds. You have
(32:43):
to get creative when you're producing. You can just keep hiring.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
People, do you do?
Speaker 1 (32:48):
But when you're doing it?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
But we fed everybody, well it with SAG we had
actually got permits.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Right now, people, we're going to have to spend less
on films.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
But the cost of filming has gone down.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, because the digital I mean when you can make
exactly when.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
You could make a movie with a pair of glasses.
Already several people have made movies with their iPhones, but
you could literally use these glasses to make a movie.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, because the.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Sound is decent enough certainly for it is areable.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, well, what do you think the sweet spot is
for indie filmmakers who want to be sustained, like want
to make many films, not just one, and try to
make a crew out of it to get their money back.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I would not spend over two hundred thousand. I wouldn't
send over one hundred and fifty thousand if you if you could,
I think that's a good sweet spot. You know, when
somebody says they spend a few million dollars on a film,
it really turns us off because we know there's it's impossible.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Well, they'll be telling you the truth. They're guitar the
truth exactly, you know, five hundreds an hour or something
like that. But but I make films, right, and my
sweet spot is like seven hundred. I don't know if
that's sustainable anymore. And I don't think I'm excessive. I
just I like to pay fair way just everybody. I
like to shoot in seventeen to twenty days, which isn't excessing.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Oh that's good.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I like good spend.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
You're spending money.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Mostly labor, right, I mean I'll have a crew of
say thirty people. That mean you're going to say a
lot that's success, that's excessive, And maybe it is. Yeah,
I shoot with two cameras. You know you need thirty people.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Yeah right, I mean there are big movies being made
with much smaller.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You're like that, Yeah, you're right, So maybe that's you know.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
You know, I just think about how much you need
to make each month to pay back, pay it back,
and then your reality the reality comes.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, I don't know if avon is the model that's
going to you know, basically support that.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Well, here's here's the thing is, once it's in multiple languages,
I believe that the revenue generated outside the US will
be larger than the US revenue. Right now, ninety five
percent of our revenue is from the US, right But
once languages open up all of the territories, I think
(35:09):
you will see be able to sustain you know, six
seven eight thousand.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I feel that people like in other markets.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
And we've had films that have made six seven eight
hundred thousand, wouldn't they don't have names?
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Okay, no, forget name talent. I'm not talking with name talent. No, No,
name talent takes you into a whole other level.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Well, and they don't even make money. I mean, Mickey
seventeen is going to lose seventy five million dollars. It's
a total box office flop, and it costs like eighty
thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I know. But then on the flip side, I could
say Honora is going to make eighty eighty million dollars
and it was made but million. Yeah, yeah, so we.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Could, but that is an extreme outline.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Of course it is. No, it's this fifth.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Film and people will go see.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I don't like to talk about because because that's what
I call the Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
But he has an audience. Yeah, yeah, so maybe down
the line you can do that. That's why no one
should be making movies unless they're so dedicated to it
that that's what they have to do. That's what they
want to do with their life. They want to make
movies in it for the long haul.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
But they but they're not. It's not since the house
have to eat and pay rent.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
We have a day job. We had a day job
for ten years. It took us before we were able
to just survive on indie rights ten years.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Right, people are listening to this conversation, should they be
taking out of it. Make filmmaking sort of your hobby.
It's your passion, but it's your hobby. It's not going
to be your livelihood until it is your livelihood, until
it switches over and becomes your livelihood, which could take
ten years or longer.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
It could yeah, or it may never or may never.
Have Sean Baker saying he doesn't have any money, so okay,
So the actors are saying that they're in the oscars
are not.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
So that's a good segue to where you want to go.
So AI is changing the world, streaming vertical into all
this kind of stuff. So, so what what's the future
for indie filmmakers?
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Like?
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I believe that there will always be indie filmmaking because
people have a passion tell stories and to hear stories. Yes,
and and indie filmmakers have the ability to do go
into any direction. They're not subject to studio execs and
that type of thing. So it will always exist because
there's dreamers, and dreamers will do stuff.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
And long form will always exist.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I don't I totally agree that long form will exist
until I always say until the world becomes the matrix.
We're all hooked up to machines and we don't have
any human characteristics anymore. But let's not go there. So
what do you think for an indie filmmaker, I mean,
you're an indie filmmaker, what do you think the future
looks like?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I have no idea. I have no I mean maybe
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
But there's you know, tens of thousands or hundreds of
thousands of young people in film schools all over the
world who are aspiring to you know, win the Academy
or do that road, and should they find something else.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Here's here's the left brain, right brain kind of the pessimist.
I'm the optimist kind of thing, and and you're the
realist on this side. I think I'm a pragmatist. Yeah,
because all right, I can tell you right now we
have filmmakers that are making money and surviving just on filmmaking,
(38:16):
and then we have others with day jobs. And you know,
how much effort you want to put into it is
really really important. If a filmmaker says to me, oh,
I don't like social media, I don't want to do
that part of it, we won't even take their film
because it's impossible. You You, you have to embrace social
media and marketing if you want to be a filmmaker.
(38:39):
So that's number one, if you're willing to do that,
you know. I believe that there will always be films
being made, you know, in one form or another, whether
it's you know, with this or with a big camera
or whatever. I think stories will always be told. And
back in the day when people sat around a campfire
telling stories, it's just Steve one.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Hundred percent agree with that. But when a young person
comes to you and says, I would like to make
a living as a filmmaker, what path should I do?
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Here?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
I have ten different options and rows.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
I would make sure that you can pay your bills first.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
So make sure you have a sustainable livelihood in some.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Other and start small and build on it, and you
might have a hit first first out time out right,
You don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, if you get lucky, but you can't build a
business planet getting luck.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
You need to be able to pay your bills.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Everybody luck here and there, but you can't depend have
a day job.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Make movies on the weekends. There's no reason you can't
do that. And then and then expand on that.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
What about the kinds of movies they should be making,
like they should be commercially viable type of thing.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yes, it helps cut out. Don't have so much sex
in the films we just turned We didn't turn down
a film, but we it's not for us a film
that just has to and too much, too many drugs, drug.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Use, just so an artist being very artistic.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yes, and we can't monetize that right now.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Market you have to remember that that advertisers have to
be willing to put ads on your movie because I
do believe for the foreseeable future that AVOD is going
to be where the revenue is generating. So you do
want to think about that. Now, look at every single
movie that Alfred Hitchcock made could go on our YouTube channel.
You think about Psycho and you know.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
The way excessively. You don't need to need.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
To have it. But but what you do need to
do is you need to have fast paced movies when
you have AVAD. If your movie is lagging and slow,
people are just going to bounce out, and then you're
getting paid based on the number of ads that get seen.
So you want somebody to get in, get engaged, and
stay in for the role. So that's sure they don't
go to their phone.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
That's the main thing. Soon as somebody goes to their phone,
they're going to click off.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Your moon, which is hard these days to I'm not
sure how you prevent that. I mean, go to any
restaurant and look at people. They're talking on their phones,
you know, I mean it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, well you know that's why. You know this movie
that just came out, Adolescence was very poignant. I don't
know if you had a chance to watch it on
Netflix and it's about how it's too much screen time
too early.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, you know, which is too bad. Yeah, But what
advice would you give because viewers.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Are My advice would would be to have a way
to pay your bills to start when you start out,
so that you know that you can not be stressed out.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Or don't leave your day job right or if.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
You have a day job, don't leave, don't leave that
at first. Think about who your audience is for your film.
For example, we received a beautiful film about someone's grandfather
who was dying of cancer. And it was a beautiful film,
but it's not what people want to watch, and you
have got to think about your audience ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I tell filmmakers they should think about who their audience
is at the inception.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Of when you're writing the idea phase. That's right.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Don't even bother with something that you can't identify an
audience for it. It's not like an audience is going
to pear magically after you make it if you couldn't
identify it before.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Horror, thrillers, crime, those are our good genres to be in,
and docs about food and travel. You know that any
any doc that would have a wide audience, don't do
something that has such a specific audience that there's not
enough people.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
But what about the faith based world? Are you dealing
in the faith based We have some.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
And it's a good sized audience. And those films generally
can go on a channel.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
They're just good, family, wholesome, inspiring films.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Or whatever, right and so yeah, so so that that works,
and keep your budget as low as possible. But you've
got to have the quality you know, you have to have.
You have to have good production value, good audio. But
story is the most important story.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
That's one thing that everybody needs to work on is
their poster because that's the clickbait for.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Some I do that though, do you help them with that?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
We could recommend it.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Because a lot of people just end up on Fiver
or something like that.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Yeah, there are some five artists that are good.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Actually, However, it's unfortunate that somebody spends, you know, one
hundred thousand dollars on a film and then they the
film may be great, and then the poster is just
nobody's going to click on the poster.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
When when you submit a film to us, if we
look at your poster and think it's bad.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
We'll tell you here, But will you say these people
try these people.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Recommendation?
Speaker 1 (43:30):
How much should somebody spend on a poster?
Speaker 3 (43:32):
You can, We have some, We have some companies as
low as two hundred and fifty dollars and some as
high as two thousand. So it just depends.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Well, if you we're using AI for their posters. Yeah,
but you can tell, you can tell.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yeah, you can tell, and you know, maybe people are
getting used to that. I don't know what about trailers,
how much should they I'm sure are people decent trailers
or are you helping with that?
Speaker 2 (43:54):
We don't.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
But if it's if we watch it and there's something
wrong that we're going to tell you. You can't have
any profanity in a trailer. You can't have anybody show
somebody shooting someone in a trailer. You know, you can't
have any sex in the trailer. So you have to
have basically what's considered g rated trailer should be under
two minutes and very fast moving and engaging. No dwelling
(44:18):
on moments or building in the trailer. No, it should
be fast, give some idea what it's about without giving away,
you know.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Although I've seen lots of trailers that have profanity, you know,
notms not on the platforms, amoretrical til you.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
Actually have multiple trailers so that for your promotional purposes,
you can do whatever you want, but you must have
a g rated trailer.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Trailers don't matter so much for the avoid platforms because
people are just taking the posters. They don't like it.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
They bounce exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
There's no financial commitment exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
So yeah, but the poster thing they're going through at
lightning speed.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
So it must be clickbait.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Big faces, big faces always faces.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Work really really well well, you know, so don't show
a little person on a beach. It looks like an
ant you know, yeah you can't, you know you? And
and no blurry uh, it's best if it's bright. And
the title art has to be very prominent. Oftentimes will
have posters rejected by the platforms because they'll say the
(45:19):
title is not readable. A lot of times people will
get very fancy artistic with their titles and it doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
It has to be readable, I mean, creating a posters
are in some ways more creative and artistic than making
the film. I mean, it's to think critical the lightning
speed that people go through it and to be able
to have something that they click that grabs you. I mean,
that's real.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
And don't don't be deceptive with your trailer because you
will get slammed in reviews if you make a trailer
and it doesn't it's not true to your movie. I've
seen some really horrendous comments. Yeah, yeah, well there used
to be. There used to be distributors who would like
make a poster and the person on the on the
(46:02):
poster wasn't even in the movie, you know, just to
be able to sell it at the market and stuff. Right,
So there were a lot.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
I know, we know the companies who you know, they
had the greatest posters and the greatest promo reals if
their movies even existed. Often they didn't. Okay, well, I
don't want to take too much more time. So I
believe that your company is doing like a justice to
independent filmmakers. You're giving a fair deal, you're very transparent,
(46:31):
you're paying the costs. I mean, you're doing a lot
of stuff that other companies aren't doing. So this is
your opportunity to kind of pitch yourselves because you know,
I mean, you're already out there and people know about you.
But you know, if there's other viewers who are trying
to figure out how to navigate distribution or find a distributor,
why come to you.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Well, I think, first of all, we've been in business
for twenty three years. We have over eight hundred filmmakers
that have been loyal to us because they trust us,
and we have a personal relationship with our filmmakers, which
is really important. We are global, you know, we will
try to sell your film all over the world. We're innovative.
(47:12):
All of our content is up in the cloud and
easily deliverable to anybody who wants to license it from us,
and we co marke it with you, and we will
teach you. And we have a private community of filmmakers,
and we pay eighty percent and don't charge any expenses.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
So we just try to be as fair as possible.
That's what fairs. I mean.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
You said you use the word trust, use the word fair.
I think that's what people are looking for. It's just
kind of hard to find it. I meant you do it.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
And and there's an easy way around that. There's a
thing called IMDb. IMDb every filmmaker should pay to have
that service IMDb pro, because you can look up a
film that's that's on there, you can look up need
distributor that's that's out there that you're considering working with,
and all you have to do is call some of
the producers that have worked with them. If you will
(48:08):
just do that one thing, you can spend one day
doing that and you will either hear good things about
that distributor or you'll have somebody crying on the other
end of the phone, yes, which we actually experience.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
You can do that through if to like through the
American Film Marketing they have the film catalog and they
list a lot of the companies and the films.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
And all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
But IMDb pro has followed.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Somebody spend with the company for a year.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Make sure you cake shalk to somebody who has been
in distribution for a year or two with them, because
then you know, the first six months somebody's with them,
they don't know if they're going to get paid, right,
But if you've been with them for a year.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
That's good advice.
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Like it's at least five, at least five you're.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Going to go on a date with somebody, ask a friend.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
And as a distributor who to call, right, go on
IMDb and pick some films and especially to try and
pick films that are like yours. If you have a
crime look for some crime thrillers. Call them, find out
what they experience. What you want to ask them is
are they accessible, like you said, very very important. Do
they return your phone calls and your emails?
Speaker 2 (49:10):
You know?
Speaker 3 (49:10):
How often do they pay you? Are you getting paid?
You asked, they have to ask them how much? But
are you happy with what you're what you're getting in
your relationship with them?
Speaker 2 (49:19):
Are you getting details?
Speaker 1 (49:21):
There's one question you can ask that it'll cover it all.
Are you going to run and hide and break your
deal and not renew or are you going to renew?
And if you're going to renew, then more things are
right than rot right. And like you say, you get
a pretty high renewal.
Speaker 3 (49:34):
Rate, more than ninety five percent.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
That's pretty high. And then some of them are just
you know, disengaged or going on to other things. That's
very good. Okay, well listen, I want to take thank
you very much for coming on. It's being super insightful.
You're super active in the business. You're serving a lot
of indie filmmakers. So I want to thank you for
that on behalf of the indie film world, and uh,
(49:57):
just thanks a lot for kind of being front and
honest with everything.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
Our pleasure to have been here.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Are you gonna be in can No, okay, we'll be
in can If anybody's watching this and wants to visit us.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, I'd like to go to Can.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Well, we will see you at the next American Film Market.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yes, definitely. If anybody's in can Palay twenty one oh one,
that's where we're gonna be.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yeah, okay, thanks again.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
Oh and you can find us at indie Rights dot com.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Indy Okay, I asked you to company indie rates dot com.
I think that the most important thing when you're looking
for a distributor is somebody who's gonna the two things
we just talked about. Is going to be transparent, is
going to be honest, and uh, sometimes you don't know
if that's the case. And as Linda and Michael suggested,
just to ask other filmmakers who have dealt with distributors
(50:46):
and they'll tell you the truth. The distributor is going
to tell you what they want you to hear, but
the filmmaker is going to tell you what their experience was,
so good luck
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