Indie Film Distribution Secrets with Clay Epstein

Distribution can make or break your film. In this episode, Jeff Deverett sits down with Clay Epstein, President of Film Mode Entertainment and Chair of the Independent Film & Television Alliance, for a deep dive into the truth about indie film distribution.

What you’ll learn:

● Why distribution is the most crucial step after making your film● The role of IFTA in protecting indie filmmakers worldwide● How film markets like AFM and Cannes really work● What distributors look for when acquiring films● The harsh realities behind pre-sales, MGs, and revenue forecasts● Why only 1% of indie films succeed—and how to improve your odds● The importance of partnerships, transparency, and creating your own luck

 If you’re serious about indie filmmaking, this episode is a must-listen.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Distribution is, in my estimation, one of the most important
components of the film business. If you make a great
move and you can't get it distributed, then it's a
shame because nobody's ever going to see it. Today, we're
going to do a deep dive into distribution. If you
want to be a successful indie filmmaker, you need to

(00:21):
know a lot about not just the production of movies,
but the business. We are going to tell you the
truth and reality of what really happens in the indie
film business. You want to know how the independent film
businesses distribution is working. Today's episode we have a very

(00:42):
special guest who is super involved in indie film distribution
and you're going to learn a lot. So today we
have Clay Epstein. Welcome Clay. I've known you for a while.
Clay is president of Film Mode Entertainment, which is an
international sales agent. Are you just too, just a sales agent?

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Mostly sales, but we do some distribution.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Okay, so we'll get into that. But also you are
the chair of the Independent Film and Television Alliance and
have been for a while, which kind of has the
finger on the pulse of independent film. So you'd think, yes,
so I want to start with that, because, first of all,
a lot of people don't know what that is. So
why don't you tell us sort of what that organization
does and how you're involved.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Nice to be here, Jeff, thanks for having Thank you
for coming.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
I always appreciate see you of course.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, if we could start with that. So I'm an
elected chair. So if the Independent Film and Television Alliance
is a trade organization, and even though it's based here
in Los Angeles, the members are from all over the world,
and qualifications to be a member is a sales agent,
an entity that's representing distribution rights for feature films or television.

(01:49):
So we have members that are big and small. Some
are one and two man companies, and some members like
Lionsgate for example, are obviously large, publicly traded operations, right,
but not studios per se. Right, it's more distribution in
the independent sense, where distribution is not controlled worldwide by

(02:10):
one studio corporation.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
So is that how you qualify your members. Could they
be a public company.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
They can be a public company, yes, but they still
have to have distribution, represent distribution rights and be in
that business of distribution outside of the studio system.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Okay, So if I'm a distributor at that level, say
representing independent films, what would be the benefit for me
being a member?

Speaker 2 (02:34):
So we are the only trade organization that exists in
the world that is for the independence, represents the independence,
represents their interests, protects their interests. That's everywhere from copyright protection,
copyright lobbying, not just here in the US, but also
in Europe, Asia and other parts of the world. And
when I say lobbying, it means educating legislators in the

(02:57):
EU in parts of Asia to understand what copyright infringement
and piracy is. Because for many years piracy has been
one of the largest threats to our industry. That shifted,
We have lots of other threats to our industry. It
used to be just copyright exactly, but other legislation. Right,
So to have an entity and a trade org that

(03:18):
is lobbying and educating legislators that's on your side and
has your best interest at heart is invaluable because you
have to remember, the studios and other corporations in any
industry has enormous, enormous lobbying groups out for their best interest.
The independents are left there out in the wild. You know,

(03:38):
without a way to defend themselves. And so if the
is the only trade org and the only organized you
know entity that is out there protecting and educating and
lobbying for the independence, so that's almost first and foremost
probably the second strength and an item that if to

(04:00):
as that comes to mind, are kind of legal definitions
which leads us to contracts in our world of distribution
and licensing. And because the technology and the language, right,
and the definitions of the tech which can change and
evolve every six months, right, and IFTA has its finger

(04:21):
on the pulse of the new tech and the licensing
and the definitions of that, because that all goes into contracts.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Right, So would you publish sort of standard contracts that
your members could use to write?

Speaker 2 (04:32):
So, right, it's for the members. So there's a legal
committee and there's lawyers at IFTA that get together and
they study this and they come up with new language
and legalese that is making sense and becomes industry recognized
and accepted. And it not only becomes dusty recognized within
the independent space, but you see it bleed into the

(04:53):
studio space as well, because the independence move fast. The
perfect example is AI. There's all.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
This such a general word, but let's just use it
for AI companies wanting to use a feature film for
learning process, right, and if they're going to license that
from us, what's that tech?

Speaker 2 (05:16):
What is that license? What's the definition of that? What
are they specifically licensing from you? So if that is
already on top of that, right. And the third, probably
most important, is if the organizes and hosts the American
Film Market, and that is the first and foremost premier
independent trade show for independent filmmakers, sales agents, producers here

(05:40):
in Los Angeles every November. So it's going to be
this November at the Fairmont Centric City. It's a huge
event for everybody. I mean, it's it's a must go
to event if you're an independent filmmaker, producer, sales agents, banker, lender, investor.
We like investors.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
So you're bringing that back to Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
We had a trip to Vegas last year, which was
a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
I didn't mind Vegas.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
We're all a little hungover still, and we're bringing it back Dela.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Okay. So the two first things the piracy thing and
you know, kind of just advocating for independence, and then
on the legal side, and that type of thing. This
is stuff that indies probably can't do on their own
because it's just not affordable and it's better done.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
And you know as a collective, yeah, I mean most
of the independent members are smaller, boutique, mid sized companies
around the world. And we're busy making movies, and we're
busy running our companies, and we're busy out there distributing
films and marketing films. And the cost to have in
house advocacy and in house lawyers is cost prohibitive. And

(06:45):
not only that, but you know, you're you're powerful in numbers, right,
you have leverage in numbers. Every other industry has a
trade organization when you think about realtors, and I'm not
going to start listening every industry out there, but they
have trade org right. It's part of being in an
industry and a community. And I'm a strong believer of
the community, the community of independent filmmakers in general. That

(07:10):
community is really important and just by definition by being independent,
that's kind of a mindset. That's how you live your
life as well, and that's what makes independent filmmakers probably
so creative and such mavericks, and how they make films
of all budget sizes, but you still need that community
to protect yourself and to move forward going to the

(07:33):
future with the right protection, the right education, you know,
the right advocacy.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
So just to clarify, So if you were if say
I was just a filmmaker like a production company, but
not in the distribution side of the business, dealing with
distributors or agents, could I become a member?

Speaker 2 (07:50):
You would not if you're just a producer. Right, we
don't have at the moment. It may change in the future,
you know. It's the board would have to come up
with a new category membership, which we've been discussing. It
may happen at the moment the members are in the
distribution space. And it's really that it's not that we
don't want producers. I would say most of our members

(08:13):
are also producers. But if you're just a producer, an
independent producer, definitely come to the AFM because there's enormous
resources and panels and a whole production series of workshops,
et cetera. But you may not qualify to be a
producer at the moment. And again it's not because we
don't want that category. It's because we would have to

(08:34):
go through a process to make sure we have services
and to support that category right and right now.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Maybe it doesn't focus on that aspect anyway, it's more distribution.
Did you say you host THEFM or do you own
the FM? If to, like, what's the relationship there both?

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah? If To created the American Film Market either seventy
nine or nineteen eighty before I was in the busines.
Were you at the first one?

Speaker 1 (09:00):
I not the first one, but the first one that
I went to was at the Beverly Hilton Hotel, so
it was the first five years were there?

Speaker 2 (09:08):
So yeah, I know it was at the Westwood Marquis
for a while and the Beverly Hills Hotel. But I
was not at the first one. Seventy nine eighty eighty one,
and it was a group of independent sales companies got
together and created which was then called AFMA, the American
Film Market Association.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
I was gonna say, is that the same thing? Because
I remember it.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
It was called AFMA, and then they launched the AFM
to bring all of their clients to Los Angeles. So yes,
and the AFMA became IF fifteen years ago. They changed
the name to be more inclusive for our television focused members.
And more of an international member base because we're not
just Americans.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
So now it's if clearly sort of American focus, it's
the American film market. You're based here in.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
LA and the headquarters is here in La, right, right.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
But what percentage of the members, say the distribution members
would be.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
I would probably say half for American and half for
sprinkling of the rest.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Of the world. That's a nice mix.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
We've been very, very focused on making sure our board
represents the membership. So a lot of our board members
are based outside of America.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
That's great. Okay, Well that's a good segue into the business,
into the distribution business. So you are a sales agent
and or a distributor with film Mode, can you just
kind of give I've.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Been accused of worse.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, I give us some details there. How long have
you been doing it and kind of what is the
focus of film Mode.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Sure, I've been in the business for twenty six years.
I got out of film school in nineteen ninety nine.
I went here at cal State Northridge here in Los Angeles,
studied film production, screenwriting, and a minor in Italian studies.
Because I wanted to be the next Fellini. Okay, and
I had a pretty good film education at Northridge, but
it's more physical and less on the business, especially back then,

(10:55):
because even though the independent distribution space was very strong
because we had the VHS, we had DVDs, that was
the time. It was very very strong. If you weren't
in it, you didn't know anything about it. So even
our professors were kind of straining themselves to be able
to explain it. But I had an internship at Morgan
Creek and ace Vent Turret two had just come out,

(11:15):
and my job was to organize materials for the international
distributors for ace Vent Tura two, and I then learned
about independent distribution because even the Morgan Creek had to
deal with Warner Brothers, they were still an independent company.
The attendant the AFM I remember getting them ready to
go to the can Film Festival. So during my internship,

(11:36):
I had this introduction to the world that I ended
up giving my career.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
But clearly, you went to film school with the intention
of being a film producer.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
When it goes to film school the intention of being
a filmmaker.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Correct, I'm making it. So you took an internship because
it was probably available at the time. I don't know,
and it worked out well because you got exposed to distribution,
which a lot of filmmakers maybe never get exposed to.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
Never And then I got my first job was at
a company called Kushner Lock, which does not exist anymore,
but it was a very large independent film production entity
and distribution company. And I answered phones better than anyone
else had ever answered phones before, which got me to
a desk in the international sales depart.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay, but still probably with the hope of someday transitioning
to be absolutely.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
I was making my short film on the weekends in
the office.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
There, right, But then you basically transitioned and spent your
whole career.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
And yeah, I still wanted to be a filmmaker at
that time and was still spending all my money on it,
but I was getting further and further into this world
and starting to create my own network and understanding how
it worked a little bit in the marketing of it.
And my first AFM, I think was in two thousand
and I attended the AFM and organized my whole offices

(12:51):
presence there. You know, I was still just out of
film school and already kind of thrown into that world
and then got a job at a company called first
Look Media, which is also no longer in visiness. I
remember all these companies, right, there's a trend here, yeah,
And that's really where I started to create a network
that is still with me to this day. And the

(13:12):
gentleman Robbie a Little, who owned the company at that time,
left and went on to start a boutique company after
he left first Look and called me to join him.
And that's really where I learned how to executive produce,
to run a company and really started to take a
much more active role. And you know, had that epiphany

(13:32):
that I'm going to put filmmaking to the side. I
don't have the patience, I don't have enough talent. There's
a lot of talent out there, and I was finding,
you know, satisfaction and a real challenge in this space.
I love traveling. It includes a lot of travel, meeting
very interesting people. And I found myself in editing bays

(13:53):
and in conversations with writers and directors on creative points.
And I found that there was a creative outlet because
you were respecting the audience and the distribution landscape with
the creative element of films. And still to this day.
I mean, I go to sets, I'm in editing rooms.
We give a lot of notes to filmmaking.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Because you have the passion and love of filmmaking.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
That's why we're here.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Not all distributors, do you know that, right? I mean,
you know a lot of people just love the whole
business side and they're not really passionate about the filmmaker.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
I think we're better, but you know I'm biased, of course,
but I am certainly at heart a major film buff.
That's how this all started, right the little kid watching
movies and remembering lines and recording the best quotes of
Ferris Bueller's Day Off and other films of my youth.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
So your path was similar to mine in that I
always wanted to be a film maker, like a producer
and director ultimately, but I accidentally ended up in distribution
because that was the only job available, not even really
knowing what distribution was. And I always say that's probably
the greatest thing that ever happened, is the greatest That
is the greatest mistake that ever happened, is that I

(15:04):
sidetracked into distribution. I spent twenty six years there before
I even stepped onto a set. But that worked out
well because when you understand distribution, it makes filmmaking a
lot more viable. Let's just talk for a second about
what is going on in international. Well, you do both
domestic US Canada and international, so you're doing a lot

(15:24):
of the international markets. What markets are you going to
these days?

Speaker 2 (15:27):
The film markets that we attend, you mean, or the
markets that we have distribution partners in.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Let's start the ones you attend, the actual markets, right.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
So, as I said before, we do travel quite a
bit for our side of the business. It is important
and so our year starts off in January, so Sundance
is in January. February is the Berlin Film Festival and
the European film markets, so we head to Berlin in February.
March is Hong Kong, so we attend Hong Kong. My

(15:57):
colleague Charlotte, my sales exec, just returned and back Film
Mart from Film Mart in Hong Kong. Yeah, April historically
had been MIPTV, which was a television focused market in
can and for many years we attended. It was on
the tour as we as we joke, but less people
were attending over the last eight or nine years. They've

(16:19):
moved it to London, I believe after Berlin, and I
don't know how well it was attended. I did not go.
So we don't attend MIPTV anymore and it doesn't exist
in can anymore. So April, you know, TriBeCa's in April,
so we may have a representative and tribett.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
That's a festival, obviously, is there is no major.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Market that we attend in April, but we're busy getting
ready for can Can is in May and that's kind
of our super Bowl. That's the biggest market for us
outside of AFL.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
So let me just clarify for the audience that doesn't know.
So there's the Can Film Festival, but you're talking about
the Marshay DUCN, which is the market which goes on
at the same time as the festival.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Right, it's happening simultaneou Lee in can and it overlaps
with the festival. So I attend screenings and we have
filmmakers that are at the festival having meetings with us
and vice versa. But it is a major event. The
whole film community, both studio and independent, go to the
south of France for ten days and conduct business. Drink

(17:19):
rose and celebrate cinema, which is great.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
Pay for overpriced requistants.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
Oh yes, absolutely absolutely, and it's a big deal for us.
It's a big investment for us. We all go, we
try and have the best presence as we can and
conduct business. There's a lot of pressure, but yes, it's enjoyable.
There's a lot of pressure. And then you know, we
come back from can in May and the summer. Sometimes
we'll have a couple festivals. There's something in Budapest called

(17:45):
nat Be Budapest, which is a Central Europe focused market.
We attend maybe every other year as need be. We
come out of the summer and we all head to
Toronto in September for TIFF for the film festival, and
and there was never an official market simultaneously with TIFF,

(18:05):
but we all went and treated it as a market anyways.
And now they are organizing a more official market really
in the future.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
So they have a name for it, like the is it.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
I don't remember they have a name, but they've managed
to get some grant money from the government quite a bit,
I believe. And then October we head back to can
for Mipcom, which is another.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Kind of TV video streaming market.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Now yeah, and Mipcom's great. You know, it's four days.
You spend you know, four or five days in can
and you conduct a lot of business in that short
period of time. And then November is another super Bowl.
That's our American film market here in LA and that's
also enormous for us. And then everyone just kind of
disappears in December.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
Well that's a lot of.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
We're pretty exhausted by that point.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
I just want to say about can So the first
I went to can and I've been to mipcom and Canada.
You know, like you, I mean, it's funny you say
I love the travel, and I say, I can't stand
it anymore just after why you do so much of
it that you just want to get tired of it?
But I remember when I moved to San Diego, and
you know you live in San Diego now too, and
people would say, oh, wait to get to can, wait
to see the beach not you know, people in can

(19:19):
don't be offended by this, But I said, do you
understand where we're coming from, like southern California? Do you
know what the beaches where we live look like?

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, we're pretty lucky, We're very lucky. The beach.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Nice French Trivia is beautiful. I mean, it's obviously beautiful,
but we also live in a beautiful.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Place too, very lucky.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, okay, so let's just talk about now the business
of indie filmmaking in terms of the distribution side. So
you're representing a lot of indie films. I know I've
seen your line up, So let's start with acquiring films, Like,
what do you look for? Just because most of the
listeners will be indie filmmakers, you know, trying to figure
out how to navigate distribution, so they're going to be

(20:00):
knocking on your door they already. Are you get hundreds
of people maybe thousands sending you their films? Is it
hundreds or thousands?

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Well, Film Mode's been around almost ten years. We on
average acquire five to ten films a year, So we
have a library of about one hundred films right now.
We're submitted. I actually haven't tracked it. We have a database.
There's probably five six thousand entries in there.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Five hundred to six hundred films.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Some months it's more, you know, before film market we're
submitted more.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, and are these all feature length or some of
them shorts?

Speaker 2 (20:35):
I mean, when we get a short, we don't even
track it, so we just say yeah, So these are
all feature length either script, a finished film, partially finished,
a package, it's about to go into production. It's various stages, right.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
So how do you decide what is a pro I mean,
I assume obviously you want finished films in order to
distribute them. But you'll get involved with you.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Know, yeah, not necessarily because their executive producers. Well, and
I produced a film with Scott Akins last year called
The Oblo that's going to come out, so we get
involved pretty heavily as well with the right package and
the right.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
What do you look for? Like, what are you looking for?
What makes it to the top of the pilot and
why when you're getting that many submissions.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Content wise, which means what the genre and the ingredients
of a Procket project. We say we're commercially driven, but
that's genre agnostic because you can have a commercial romance,
a commercial drama, commercial action film, right, But we are
commercially driven, right, So.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Let's just define that before we move, right, Meaning that
you are looking out, you're trying to identify who the
audience is, who would be receptive to this take audience.
If you don't feel it's going to play well to
an audience, then it's not going to be a commercially.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Viable If it's too niche, it's very difficult for us.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Like a very niche drama for insanrect Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
And the more niche you get, the bigger you're cast,
and filmmakers have to be to overcompensate for the lack
of broadness of the material. Having said that, the genre
that is most commercial is always going to be an
action film with an actor of notability. That's why you
see a lot of action films that have Frank Rillo, etc.

(22:18):
But those have even gotten challenging because the market got
saturated with them. So the distribution landscape is very selective,
and it's become increasingly more selective as the choice for
entertainment has widened, not only from independent films, but of
course the choice of a consumer to entertain themselves at
any given moment feels like an endless amount of content,

(22:41):
both television, shorts, YouTube clips, music video. It's endless, it's infinite.
So for an independent film to get their attention is
really really difficult.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
So I mean, and you're saying that I mean, your
perspective is different than the filmmaker. So say young aspiring
film makers or whatever who you know, say, yeah, there's
a lot of product that there really have no idea
just actually how much there is. I mean unless they've
been to a market. You go to a market. I
remember taking a director to a market one time and
the first thing he did walked into the thing. We

(23:14):
only made it to the first floor, and he was
completely overwhelmed by how many countries were represented, how many
companies within each country, and how much product each one had.
He thought, he's coming here, he's going to be one
of three films like his. We didn't get past, you know,
the first five booths, and there were ten already like his.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, filmmaker really needs to take the time to do
their research and understand the landscape, the distribution landscape. Because
every filmmaker makes a movie so it could be seen.
They don't make the movie so that no one sees it, right,
Filmmaking is a delayed performance art. They make films so
they can be seeing in the audience. Is a part

(23:55):
of that process. And if they haven't done the proper
educating themselves, learning the distribution landscape, it's almost like they've
missed a major element of the filmmaking process. And they
should all attend film markets and they should look on
all platforms to see what's there and what's working right
and how is it getting to the consumer. And if

(24:16):
they open their eyes and they really make that a
part of the process, then they can when they write
that script or make the film or give it a title,
and really try and make sure that they're doing things
and taking those necessary steps to get to the consumer
and the audience. That's ultimately what their goal is.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, I mean, I find that the big disconnect that
filmmakers are super focused on art obviously because that's what
they want to specialize in, and don't really connect at
all with the business side, which we'll get to in
a minute a right, But I just want to finish
the sort of thought that I started. So you get
this enormous amount of product, and the first criteria is
it's got to be commercially viable. And you can sort

(24:56):
of get a sense of that just because you're very
experienced with dealing with lot of films. So now let's
say you narrow it down from say five hundred films
a year to two hundred that are commercially viable, but
you're only going to take ten. So what would the
next criteria.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Be depends at the stage of the project. If it's
finished and they just need us to come on as
a sales agent, that's very easy. We watch it and
we discussed internally if we think there's an audience, and
then at what level that audience is, what value we
feel the film has in the marketplace, and we make
a decision based on that. That's the easiest way.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
To yeah, because finish, finish, No, there's no guessing it's
going to look like.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
If it's just a script, but we think the script
is commercial and well written, then who's making it is
really important. The director, the producer, the editor or the DP,
who's going to be in it. All of that becomes
incredibly important because that's all you have to go by
to help you give some indication of that the execution
will be. If the film is already in production, then

(25:56):
you can look at dailies, you can see already where
it's headed. But most of the projects that come to
us are either finished or in a process of being finished,
or they're a script being packaged, and that's when we
come on as executive producers to help race financing. You know,
there's many times we get on the phone with the
writer to help ways to tighten the script, make it

(26:19):
a bit more appealing for the market, make it more
appealing for talent to come on board. There's a whole
art form to attracting actors to your script.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Okay, but you said the magic words, then maybe you
come on as executive producers to help raise financing.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
That's the struggle that I said that in quotes, you're
not signing checks.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Okay, so let's just demystify one thing, whether it's finished
or unfinished, in development, whatever. What is the status of
pre sales these days in the for independent films and distribution.
Are films getting pre sales with minimum guarantees with checks?

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Right? Well? Pre sales? Right? Pre sales mean that you
have taken a script and cast and the direct what
we call a package. The film was not made yet,
and we present the package to a distributor and the
distributor says, I believe in this package, I'm going to
sign a contract worth ten thousand dollars. It's using a
round number, right, And when that film was finished and

(27:14):
i've taken delivery of it, I will pay you the t.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
So they're locked into that commitment.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
And I take that contract to a lender and I say,
I have a contract for ten thousand dollars in Malaysia
to bake this movie. And the bank gives you eight
thousand dollars in cash to.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Help you go make the movie, but they also charge
you interest and fees and stuff.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
So when the ten thousands come in, they take the
whole tank ground. They've made a two thousand dollars big
So that's kind of how pre sales work.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Okay, what about the minimum guarantees on a finished film?

Speaker 2 (27:43):
So somebody BET's different that that's how pre sales.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
That's pre sales on a finished movie.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
I present the film to the distributor and they say
they'll give me x amount, and we sign a contract
and they pay me when I tell them films ready
to deliver to them, but that's finished. They've seen the
movie finish.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
If you take it as in your capacity a sales agent,
let's say you take it to a distributor who hasn't
necessarily done a sale yet but believes in it, would
they give a minimum guarantee?

Speaker 2 (28:09):
See what I mean. I've taken it to a distributor
in the UK and Germany and they've seen the movie
and they say, yes, we will acquire the rights to
this film for you for ten thousand.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Dollars against royalties that are ultimately maybe there could be overages.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Right, Yes, that's an MG minimum guarantee. It's against your
share of overages.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Correct, So is that happening these days? Are independent features
low budget indie features? Yes, no name talent.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yes. It depends if the film is commercial enough and
has an audience. So, having said that, are the numbers big?
Depends on the movie. Is it sold everywhere in the world?
Depends on the movie. Some films are sold in some
countries but not others, and they go unsold.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
So let's just play out one example. Okay, hypothetical. All right,
I make a decent action movie, no name actors, but
good acting, well well directed, well produced, entertaining movie, but
no name talent. Obviously five hundred thousand dollars budget. Let's say,
and it's saleable, you take it out. What kind of

(29:10):
numbers would you expect on an MG. Again, on average,
it's a good film.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
On average, it like it costs five hundred thousand dollars
or does it look like it costs five million.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Of course, every filmmaker is going to tell you it
looks like it costs five.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
So if the film looks like it costs three four million,
but it really costs five hundred and it is action
and it works, and it's not too long, not too short,
and it really is a watchable, solid film. The international
value is probably worth between two hundred and five hundred thousand,
and domestic's probably worth between one hundred thousand and three

(29:44):
hundred thousand.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Okay, so say total, let's say seven hundred thousand.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
That's just that's if the film is a solid, solid
that's that's what we're going on solid.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Okay. Now, if that's the ultimate value are you talking?
That would be the MG value.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
That is what you're going to get from the world
in mgs. In MG the chances of overages from a
film like that with no one in it is slim.
It could happen, but it likely won't happen.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
We assume that the distributors who are picking that up
around the world are getting their money back at least
because they're not taking too much risk.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
You assume, but they have to recoup that MG and
that costs. Correct, they all have costs to bring that
film to market.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Here's where I want to ultimately go with this question.
Filmmakers are super anxious, as you know, to get their
films made, and they just need to. They just have
this burning desire to make a film, and they don't
necessarily think much about the financial side of it, you know,
the recruitment side, because first of all, they don't know
the numbers going in. Right Like, if you say to

(30:44):
a filmmakers, filmmaker says, Okay, I'm gonna make a seven
hundred thousand dollars film, and if you were to ask them,
how are you going to get your money back, they're
going to say, well, I'm gonna give it to a
distributed and they're going to figure it out.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
No one in any profession sets out to make something
without knowing what it's worth in the marketplace. Any other industry,
you build a house, you build a car, you build furniture,
you build stereo equipment, everything is backed into what it's
worth in the marketplace. The only industry I can think
of in the world that doesn't do that is the

(31:16):
independent filmmaking space because for studios and large corporations and
even boutique production companies all back into a budget based
on its value in the marketplace. That's how budgets are made.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
I love this. I love this. This is exactly what
I talk about all the time. Why why does that
phenomena happen in the independent films?

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Because they don't want to be slowed down. They don't
want to be told don't.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Because they're artists and they just are focused on art.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
I've looked them in the eye and I've said, maybe
you should do this. Why are you spending there? They
don't want to be slowed down.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
That's same because it's a dream, It's a sexy dream.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
What's interesting and iron and maybe not ironic, But what
is I'll go back to the word interesting. Is the
same energy and persistence and sensibility that a independent filmmaker
needs to get a film made and done. Is the
same sensibility that may also be their worst enemy. And

(32:16):
that's why filmmakers need to partner with someone that can
counterbalance that, because if you're focused on making the movie
and that's your ultimately goal, I don't care what's going
to cost. This is what I need to get done.
We'll figure it out later. You need a partner that says,
wait a minute, this is the budget. This is why

(32:38):
the budget is is the amount of money we have.
We have to get it done on this X date.
It has to be made in three weeks, let's say.
And you need that partner that you can trust and
that is going to tell you the reality and it's
going to check you at the gate. Yeah, the voice
of reality every step of the way.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
You need that and that would that partner? Would you
be that partner for filmmakers.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
I know that isn't that is an on set producing
partner if you're just a filmmaker. If you're a director,
let's say, or the writer director.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
But that's about staying on time and on budget when
you're making your movies. But how do you know how
much to make the movie? For it?

Speaker 2 (33:14):
Like if somebody why you partner with the producer that
knows and that producer has relationships with entities like us
and they've come to us, and I, yes, I could
become an exec producer and I can give you this
information and I can discuss this information. But a lot
of times it's almost too late by the time I
come on.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
But if I say, like you and I are friends, Clay,
and you know, and I want to make a new film,
And I say, Clay, you know, I'm a little removed.
I mean, you know, I still dibble and dabble on
the distribution side, but that you're in it full time.
I phone you up and I say, Clay, I'm thinking
of making this kind of movie. You know, you don't
need to read the script. I'll give you sort of
the overview. I understand the commercial viability. I understand all
that stuff. You know, what's going on in the marketplace.

(33:53):
Could you give me a range? Could you say, Jeff,
you're looking at five to six hundred thousand and worldwide
revenue tops or you know, that would be the safe space.
You know, maybe if you're lucky, you get to a million,
but you know, don't count on it.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, you know, we don't do that for independent filmmakers,
we don't know. But someone like yourself or colleagues of
mine and friends, we have those conversations all the time
because market shifts right right, Which.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Would I tell filmmakers is called a revenue forecast or
you know, an idea.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
I guess you're talking about projections or estimates correct.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
So what's going on there are filmmakers. I mean, a
lot of filmmakers don't even ask for that, they don't
even care about that. But I get a lot of
calls from filmmakers who say, how can I get an
accurate revenue forecast or just an estimate as to what
my film, the film that I'm thinking of doing, is
going to do.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
They need to go to a FM and can and
network and meet sales agents and other producers and other
filmmakers and get into the community. No one owes this
filmmaker who's done nothing my projections and expertise because he
has a dream to make a movie. They need to
get themselves into the industry and not start networking and
become a professional. Okay, That gets them into the system,

(35:05):
gets them into the community. Right. Networking is incredibly important.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
I totally agree with you. But the disconnect is that
a lot of filmmakers say they don't want to spend
their time and effort in that distribution side. They're prerogative,
they want to make the movies. They're artists.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
Great that they're going to be.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
They're gonna be starting.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
I see our producer laughing over here, Hey, I went
to film school, and I intern, and I hustled. I
don't maybe the precursor and the context of me sounding
like an a hole right now, No, No, people want
to know the truth. I had a dream also of
being a filmmaker. No one in the world owes you
or me your dream come true moment, right anything in

(35:48):
life you want, you have to go create your own luck.
And I feel that I put in the time. I
went to film school, I intern, I answered phones, I
did runs around Hollywood. I worked for nothing. I worked
long hours because I always saw it as an investment
in my future of achieving my dream. I never questioned it.

(36:10):
If they wanted me to work late, great, that means
I'm closer to achieving my dream. I'm gonna meet someone
else tonight, I'm gonna do one more run. I'm gonna
maybe be asked to hang out for a coffee or
a drink, which gives me an opportunity to chat with them.
I started building my network very young because I was
excited to.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Be in Hollywood now, a new young aspiring you know.
I teach a lot of people, you know, aspiring filmmakers
students in film school. So one of them super inspired
and good and really eager to do well, comes to
you and says, what course would you set me on
in order to be a successful career filmmaker. I don't

(36:50):
want to just do one film and be done because
I was irresponsible. What's it going to take for me
to build my career? You know, maybe ultimately become Christopher
Nolan or something like that. But you know, let's I'm
willing to take put in the time and go through
the steps. What would that look like? What are those steps?

Speaker 2 (37:06):
I don't start. I don't think any successful filmmaker has
the same trajectory.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
But is there not sort of a path like? Would
you not like?

Speaker 2 (37:14):
And the reason I say that is if you're a
British filmmaker, you have access to grants. If you're a
tirement filmmaker, American filmmaker, American film that's in a country
without any financial help from any government to.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
Help them fifty miles of where we are in.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Hollywood, that's a tough question to answer because there isn't
a system here that creates an environment to give them
an opportunity, unlike in Europe or in Canada or Canada,
especially Canada and Australia. We don't have that here. So
now you're really going off talent and the ability to

(37:51):
try and raise some money yourself to prove and show
your talent. So that might be if you have enough
money for a short film, it might be the short
film to prove and show you have talent. Get it
into film festivals so that talent can then be seen
by an audience. But do it and still do it
in a commercial sense, because if that filmmaker does a

(38:12):
ten minute drama, that's not going to help them get
the next.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Well that's just a proof of their ability to do filmmaking.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
But it's not, and they have to realize the harsh
reality that there is a lot of competition. So talented
enough is not going to do it unless they have
access to money. So sure, there's many moderately talented filmmakers
that work consistently because they have access to financing which

(38:41):
enables them to continue to make movies.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Now, are those movies generally making money? Like, are independent
filmmakers making a living?

Speaker 2 (38:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
You said, you said, you said, and you said no.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Our independent filmmakers make you living. Some are, of.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Course, some are. I'm generally speaking. I mean, if this
is a tough business. We all know this is a
tough business for all the.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
Things I like talking back to the one percent rule
in our business. The one percent rule in our business
kind of goes across all areas. One percent of scripts
get produced and pop. One percent of films find success,
one percent of actors find a career a consistent career
in acting. So I'm gonna go with my one percent.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Great, Okay, I love that.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
How's that?

Speaker 1 (39:31):
Because I go with it all. I talk about the
one percent thing all the time. But it's a little depressing,
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Only one not for the one percenter, not for the
one percent one percenters jumping in the street a great time.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
So let's say it is one percent. Let's say one
percent of I can tell you statistically why only one
percent of any films are successful. I'll tell you later.
But the question that the listeners are going to ask
is how do I become the one percent? What gives
me a better chance? Is it just luck? But it's
you know, comedy, there.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Was a route to the one percent that wouldn't be
one percent. Okay, But here's here's what I say.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
Here's why I say it's one percent. I say, take
say ten thousand films a year. Five thousand are going
to be terrible. They're just not produced well. So you know,
nobody wants to watch a bad film, So that removes
fifty percent. Four thousand of those other five thousand aren't
going to get proper distribution because filmmakers don't know how
to do it, right. Of the thousand that's left, only
eight hundred of them will not get marketed properly. They'll

(40:24):
actually get distributed, but they won't nobody will know about them,
So you guys will put them, you know, distributors will
put them onto some streaming platforms avo D streaming platforms, right,
but nobody will know. They're just click through them really quick.
They're sort of marginal artwork, marginal trailers. So of the
two hundred that's left, half will be successful, meaning one
hundred out of ten thousand, that's one percent.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Having said all these sarcastic and cynical things, I still
do believe that talent prevails. But not only will talent prevail,
that talent also has to be met with some sort
of balance check and balances, right, because I have met
extremely talented filmmakers that literally cannot get out of their

(41:05):
own way, and they are preventing themselves from succeeding.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
How So, when you say not get out of their
own way, like just.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
They won't surround themselves with the right individuals that will
help them make the best possible film right. And that
can be anywhere from in the editing room, spending too
much time and effort on not accepting a title change
so that the titles changed to something that's marketable and
let the film have success. So they're stuck on a

(41:35):
title that isn't going to work in the marketplace, so
the film doesn't find success. These are all real world stories,
by the way, talented filmmakers that have spent money incorrectly,
so they're still talented, but they've run out of money
so they can't get the film finished. Y call that irresponsible.
And so if they had that checks and balances, or
that partner or that other capability. But a lot of

(41:58):
talented individuals are so talented that that's what they're they're
really good at getting on set and getting they're telling
a great story, telling a great story. That's why producers exist. Yeah,
I've known very few filmmakers that can write, direct, produce,
and edit their own movie and it'd be good. I
have met them, but not very many of them. Yeah,

(42:19):
and those individuals are truly magnificent, and even they have
a tough time raising money sometimes.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah, but generally you're focused either on their tistic side
or the business side, and it's kind of dilute you
to focus on both. But just switching gears for a second,
because we're going to run out of time, and I
want to get these questions. And a lot of filmmakers
say to me that they've been totally screwed by distributors.
And I'm sure you've heard that and read it and
seen all the Facebook groups and Instagram posts and all

(42:46):
this kind of stuff. Why why do they say that?
Is it true? What happens? I mean, I say that
a lot of filmmakers don't understand how to do a
distribution deal so and don't get represented. Well, but what happens?
Why is that?

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Well, without seeing those posts, I think every every stories
could be different, right, Yeah, they're not flying. What I'm
trying to get at is when I've heard filmmakers complain
and then I've sat them down and said, tell me
your story. Like, why are you upset? Well, the sales

(43:20):
agent this, and then the distributor we didn't get reports
and what film was it?

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Like?

Speaker 2 (43:24):
So what was that contract? Like when was that? Did
they give you an MG for the film?

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Like?

Speaker 2 (43:30):
What's all the context that comes into play. I think
the reputation and the generalization of this negativity comes from
a lack of transparency and a lack of understanding how
it all works. Are there sales agents out there that
are not the most honest people, are honest companies that
may lack transparency. I'm sure there are are there distribution

(43:54):
companies out there that are not so honest and lack
of transparency. I'm sure there are. At film Mode, we
only work with good distributors, which is something that we
really highlight to our filmmakers. I'm not doing business with
lower tier distributors or ones that have a reputation of
not paying, not reporting.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
But switching gears back to your the if to how
does if to like? Does if to help monitor?

Speaker 2 (44:20):
If it is not a police if does not police?

Speaker 1 (44:22):
Okay, so anybody not a.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Police station here?

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Right?

Speaker 2 (44:25):
You can't you can't start. I don't think we can
even do that as a trade organization.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, it would be.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
You can't believe them, right. The contracts have legal clauses
that give a filmmaker or a sales agent the capability.
Not everyone has.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
The filmmakers to pay the exact same narrative of a
distribution company and said none of us got paid, none of.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
Them, and tell them. Tell everyone not to do business
with that company.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
I see them or something.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, that's that's that's on. That's up to them. I
think that there is another side of the negativity that
if your film doesn't perform, you assume you're being ripped off.
But there is the possibility the film did not perform, of.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Course, I mean not every film's going.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
To perform exactly. So as long as you've pardoned with
the sales agent that has a good reputation and reports
and gives you the information whether or not there's money owed,
whether or not the film performed, you at least have
that data. You have that information, right, and sales agents
are obligated to do that.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, okay, last sort of topic here is what is
the future of indie filmmaking?

Speaker 2 (45:34):
No idea?

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Okay, I mean the big streamers they're even strugging.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Let me tell you the future next week.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Well, okay, I'm going to say, let me premise that
by saying, I believe there will always be as long
as humans want to be entertained, as long as the
human beings that we don't enter the world of the
matrix where we're all hooked up to machiones. As long
as we're human and we have the desire for entertainment,
there will always be a need and a desire for
indie film. I think the challenge always has been and

(46:03):
is getting greater, is distribution and access to audiences. Because
you know, a lot of the big companies are vertically integrated,
and I've locked out a lot of the indie film community.
I'm not sure why, but I guess they just internalize
it and make their own product, and you know, they
feel that's a better business model. So I just feel
like that maybe there needs to be a new model.

(46:25):
You know, people say distribution, indie film distribution is broken.
I say, no, it's not broken. It just never was
operating properly because indie filmmakers don't focus enough on distribution.
As soon as they start doing that, there could be
a whole new trend. But I still believe that that
filmmakers will always have the desire to tell their stories
and that there will be audiences out there who want
to hear the stories. It's just getting to them. It's

(46:47):
making the connection between the good filmmaker with the good
story and the audience member who actually wants to hear it.
Which is all marketing. It's all distribution and marketing, and
right now we're seeing that that's by and large controlled
by the big streamers and studios, as it has been
for you know decades. I mean, the streamers is a
new thing. So is AI going to change that? I mean,

(47:09):
you know, the good news is we have access to
the entire world market now. The bad news is hard
to get anybody's attention, right, So you know, do you
have thoughts on that? What are you thinking?

Speaker 2 (47:18):
I do believe talent will prevail, and that.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Talent has to be seen. Like the greatest filmmakers in
the world, if they're not distributed, well, nobody's going to
know that they made the greatest film.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
In my careers thus far. When there's truly someone talented
as a filmmaker, their material gets through.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
I'll bet you there's hundreds, if not thousands of people
who are going to be listening to this episode and saying,
I am super.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Think but just because they think they're talented doesn't mean
they are. But they might be.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
They actually might.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
If they're able to get a movie made and the
film is remarkable and commercial, it will get through.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
What I'm saying is, even if they get it made,
getting it through it seems to be a big challenge
getting it through, like meeting the right distributor getting the
right deals.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
You have to go to AFM and can and Berlin
and meet You gotta work it.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
You gotta work it.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
You have to get out there. I don't disagree.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
I don't disagree, and you know you do all the
right things. Listen, I'm gonna tell you just from my
business experience, it's very important to be persistent, to hard working,
to try to do the right things. But once in
a while, luck doesn't hurt, you know, getting a lucky break.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
Yeah to luck, one hundred percent. I do believe you
create your own luck. And what that means.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Is you put yourself in a situation, you.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Do enough proactive measures right, and you get yourself out there.
Like you said, you're creating opportunities that luck could flourish.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Correct, at least you're in the game. You're putting yourself.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
If you stay at home, luck's not going to come
find you. Right. You do have to create a situation
where luck can happen, and that I do believe in.
I do believe. So I say, you create your own luck.
You create the situations where luck can happen.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah. So my dad used to say this expression, and
it's it's kind of a negative expression but has a
positive outcome. He used to say, if you want to
get hit by a big truck, you got to go
play on the highway.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
And it's like that, you like if.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
The concept of getting hit by a big truck is not.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Yeah, but you remember that's a very memorable, right.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
So he would say, you want to get hit by
a big truck, go play on the highway. Because he
was a real entrepreneur. He got his hands dirty all
the time, which means put yourself into play. Get out there.
And sometimes it's not comfortable. Playing on a highway is
not fun, but you want to be there. You got
to you gotta be there in the highway. So, and

(49:43):
I agree with.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
You ending on a truck, You're going to end on
a very positive note.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Well, first of all, that is ah, that was a
positive way of him saying, leave the confines of your
comfortable environment your home. Like what you just said, get
out there, go to a market. Listen mark it says,
you know, you go to tons of them. Can be
super intimidating for a first time filmmaker, and you know
there's a way to do it. You guys at AFM
do great panels on that.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Most film markets have some sort of filmmaking introduct element
and panels and educational but also element.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
You do a great view. I've watched your video of
how to do a market, like plan meetings. Don't just
show up, you know, like.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
That's right, I had done. I did kind of a
how to you did, and the AFM that's available on YouTube,
I thay absolutely, I.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
Don't even have to register. That's yeah, And that's really
helpful for a first timer because it can be super
intimidating to go there, especially if you're going alone. It
can be lonely and awkward because you don't know what
to do, and you know you got to make meetings.
You gotta take yourself out of your comfort zone sometimes
because your comfort zone is this confines of making art right,
and you're super good at it, but now you're going

(50:53):
into networking, you're going into some distribution discussions or you know,
revenue forecast part of it. It is a very big
part of it. But it's not comfortable for everybody. So
you did say earlier, you know, find somebody who maybe
you can associate with, who is good at it and
make let them be comfortable with it and partner collaborate.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
I think that's important. Filmmaking is a collaborative process.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, and I agree. I agree. I always say to
my students, you know, a lot of them, you know,
I'm teaching the film school, but it's funny, I'm teaching
the business aspects of filmmaking, which a lot of students
aren't that I'm interested in. So sometimes I think maybe
I should be teaching the business school. And then I
say to my student, my film students, Okay, I'm going
to teach you how to do a budget, all right,
I'm going to teach you how to do a tax credit.

(51:37):
I know you're not going to actually want to do
that because you just want to focus on directing and
writing and all that fun stuff, right, But it has
to get done. So here's an idea. Leave the film school,
walk across campus and meet somebody in the business. Good idea,
meet like somebody use a marketing major, somebody use a
finance major, somebody who likes to do spreadsheets and likes

(51:58):
to talk about tax credits and partner with them, create
a team, collaborate. Now you're drafting off their skill set,
they're drafting off your skill set. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (52:09):
It does make sense. It's a good good advice.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Because otherwise you're going to be even if you do
this stuff, you're not going to be enjoying it.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
So they need to know about it. I think they
need so'st important. They just need to know about it.
They need to understand it because it comes into play
for all all our most independent films.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Right, Okay, here's how we're going to end, because because
I really appreciate you taking the time to come and
share your thoughts and you've been very honest, and I
appreciate that you get to do a plug for your
company because there's going to be thousands, hopefully tens of
thousands of filmmakers who listen to this podcast and are
looking for credible distributors and sales agents to represent them.

(52:48):
So why don't you tell us you know about your
company and why they should deal with you.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah. Well, first of all, I want to plug our
YouTube channel, right, Okay, sure, We're all trying to grow
our audiences. So we have a film Mode Entertainment YouTube
channel which has all our trailers and clips from our films,
and maybe in the future we'll have more content, maybe
some educational videos on there, but I do want to
grow the audience there, and we have Instagram and Facebook.
It's all film Mode Entertaining.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
How many movies do you have on that channel now, Well, it's.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Mostly our trailers, trailers, and then our films are distributed
with a lot of other domestic distribution companies. We do
a lot with Grindstone and Lines, Gaidens to Bond, and
you know, there's many others as well. And I think
what's important to know about film Mode is that we
are filmmaker friendly. So despite my tone on some of
the questions, we really think of ourselves as the filmmaker

(53:38):
friendly company, and that means we collaborate, we are transparent,
we do help on the creative. You know, we've worked
with a lot of first time filmmakers, and I think
something that's very important for aspiring filmmakers or for filmmakers
that have a film looking for their first sales agent.
Do some research. You can go on our website. You
can see who made the films we represent those producers

(54:00):
and see what their experience was. I'm more than happy
to suggest and invite filmmakers to contact other filmmakers we've
worked with and do their due diligence. They should do
that with any sales agent they signed with. They surely
know who they're gonna partner with, because we do become
a partner. We're on the same side trying to get
an audience for your film. It's almost ten years. I've

(54:22):
been at this for thirty and we're still going. So
I want to wish everyone the best of luck. If
it was easy, everyone would be doing it. We're still
kind of pulled back in because of how exciting it is,
and at the end of the day, we love movies.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
That's a great ending. So I just want to thank
Clay Epstein, thank you for being my guests today. It
was very informative and appreciate you and to all you
filmmakers out there, if you didn't hear the message. I'm
going to summarize it and say, Clay and I both
agree that if you want to give yourself the best
fighting chance, learn about the business. Now, what's going on

(54:58):
out there, learn about it. You don't have to do
it all, you just have to understand what has to
get done, and then you've got a better chance.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
So good luck, Thanks for having me here.