September 24, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode, Jeff sits down with entertainment attorney Tatiana Perez of Ramo Law to break down the side of filmmaking most creators avoid talking about: the legal work that keeps your film safe and sellable. From contracts to clearances to distribution deals, Tatiana explains why setting aside part of your budget for legal purposes isn't optional — it’s essential.
Takeaway: Legal might feel intimidating, but getting it right upfront protects your film, your money, and your career.
Takeaway: Legal might feel intimidating, but getting it right upfront protects your film, your money, and your career.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, So today we're going to talk about something
that a lot of filmmakers don't like to talk about,
which is the legal aspects of filmmaking. When you're making
a film, there's lots of contracts, lots of legal components,
and we're going to address them in today's episode. If
you want to be a successful indie filmmaker, you need
(00:20):
to know a lot about not just the production of movies,
but the business. We are going to tell you the
truth and reality of what really happens in the indie
film business. All right, So today I have a special guest,
Tatiana Perez of Ramo Law, and they are a boutique
(00:41):
law firm in Los Angeles that specializes in film production.
I know that you do a lot of indie films
because I'm one of your clients. So I deal with
one of Tatiana's associates at the firm. But Tatiana, can
you just introduce yourself, tell us you know sort of
what you do at the firm and your background.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
So my name is Tatiana Perez and I am an
associate every Mole Law. I work on the production legal team,
and I primarily work on indie film and I also
work on a bit of unscripted, so that could be
either series or film.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
So I work on the production.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Legal team, and I have been there for three years
at this point. I started off as their intern, and
then I was their law clerk, and then I was
their associate as soon as I passed the bar, and
I've been there since then, just working with different teams
on production legal matters, some clearance matters, and some distribution
matters as well. So that's a little bit about what
(01:40):
I do. But the firm is, as you said, full
service boutique. We do pretty much everything.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So on the production legal side, you take for granted
that people know what you do, but they actually don't,
and it's sort of intimidating to a lot of filmmakers.
I'll start and you just fill in the hole. So
I know you guys, you can do the full sort
of gambit of all of the contracts, and in a film,
if you're doing it properly, you're going to have contracts
for cast, for crew locations, insurance components, potentially financing components.
(02:10):
So you'll do all those contracts right.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yes, we do all of that from the project's inception
to distribution. Once you're delivering it and getting it ready to.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Go, and also maybe writers or writers agreements, and or
if you're acquiring a property, all the intellectual property stuff,
you'll do the whole gambit.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Yes, definitely, that chain of title stuff is very important
at the very beginning, just to get it all figured
out and make sure that you know who has the
rights so you can avoid any problems later on on
the line.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay, so most indie filmmakers understand that they're going to
need to do this properly, but they're a little intimidated
by it by two things. One is they don't really
understand a lot of the components that go into this,
and also they're worried about the price. Let's go to price,
and I know, like, I'm not asking you to necessarily
name because each project's going to be sort of a
different level of complex city. I'm sure, what should an
(03:01):
indie filmmaker expect to pay for, say a package of
or you know, legal representation or whatever they need on
an indie film.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
I would say that they should expect to pay at
least one percent of the budget. And I think what
that would do is really make sure that you're getting
comprehensive legal services to ensure that you're not getting into
these situations later on down.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
The line when you're delivering and you know you're.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Submitting archival licenses or something like that to your distributor
and you realize that you're missing a bunch of terms,
or you know, the archival license that you paid for
isn't necessarily the one you need, and so that could
end up with cost ballooning. You don't really want that,
especially later on down the line, once everything is said
and done and you've made your project. So I think
(03:47):
setting aside one percent of your budget early on in
the production process and making sure that you're working with
your attorneys not only for you know, like performers and
chain of title and things like that, but making sure
that you're getting their advice in their council along the way.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
That, right there is the way that you're.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Going to ensure you get the most bank for your
book and you're not getting into these situations later on
where you have to pay thousands of dollars that you
may not necessarily have.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Right, Okay, you just threw it on two legal terms.
Just I just want to clarify before I go back
to that one percent. So archival and chain a title.
By the way, I am a lawyer, so I want
you to explain it. But yeah, so I have a
lot of degree as well.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So yes, So archival licenses are primarily heavy in the
dock space. If you are you know, you want to
use footage from parade years and years ago, you would
have to go locate the license holder if you know
whoever the owner is, and then once you you know,
make an agreement with them, you need to ensure that,
(04:47):
like you have certain rights in order to deliver it properly.
So you know, you want to make sure that you
can assign the agreement. You want to make sure that
if there are any issues with that footage that the
owner of the footage can't come after you and get
an injunction against you and you know, stop the entire
project from coming out or stop you from being able
(05:07):
to show it any further. So that is something to
consider when you have an archival license. The same goes
for you know, music and other things like that, but
chain of title.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Chain of title is.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Focused on who owns the project and who is the
rights holder.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Of the project.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
So ultimately, you know, if you write something if you're
a writer pen to paper, you are the owner, and
you can go file that with the copyright office, and
you know, everything is said and done. You're the claimant,
you're the owner, you're the author all of that. But
if you are contracting with a production company and you
want to get this, you know, the script that you
wrote turned into an idea and turned into an actual project.
(05:48):
If you contract with this production company, you need to
assign the rights to the production company so that they
are technically the owner and holder of those rights. And
so this can get a little tricky, you know, if
you have co writers or you know, if you've like
assigned the agreement a few times, or if the screenplay
has gone through a few hands at that point.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So that is the main concern of a chain of title,
just ownership in general.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Okay, so just back to the fees, like the one percent,
and I'm talking from my legal experience. So if you're
doing a million dollar film and one percent, say one
hundred thousand, I mean that that I think is more
than enough to cover the legal package. And even if
you're doing five hundred thousand and you're maybe at fifty thousand,
but what happens you're doing one hundred thousand dollars film
and you're at one thousand dollars, is that going to
(06:35):
cover your your legal fees?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
No that I do not think that would come.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
No, No, it would. So I would say there's a minimum,
Like minimums that I've seen thrown around are about the
opening numbers five thousand, and that is bare bones. I'm
thinking it's more like ten to fifteen. Is that about right?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, five thousand is usually what our firm starts with
in terms of a retainer, and so we just bill
against that. But I mean, ultimately, it really depends on
the amount of work that you have.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So if you are working on a project and you
just need a few licenses, you need a few releases,
then that can definitely fall within the five thousand dollars range,
you know. And these releases and the licenses they can't
they come proform a and standard with you know, everything
that you need to distribute the project, and so that
takes care of you there. But it really depends on
(07:28):
what your needs are and you know how new you
are to filmmaking, and you know, like how much help
you need with that kind of process, because you know, oftentimes.
I mean your attorney can also kind of assist you
with that as well, just talk you through some of
the decisions you're making. But yeah, it really it really
depends on what your appetite is and how much legal
you need.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Well, I'm going to give you a chance to plug
the legal profession. So a lot of indie filmmakers are
begun saying to me for years actually now, but even
more so, why can't I just go on the internet
and download these Templar eight contracts or better yet, go
to chat GPT and have them dictate a contract, you know,
say here's what I need and out pops a contract.
How come that isn't appropriate?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I mean, you can do that, it's you know, you
can go ahead and get a form. But the thing
is that lawyers can be the ones that really explain
what could be the actual result of what you agree to.
You know, So, like back to the archival, if you're
you know, if you're agreeing to whatever and you just
agree to sign the license as is, you never know
(08:30):
what the distributor is going to need. So I mean,
if you end up, you know, selling to a Netflix
or like a Max or something like that, and they
have very stringent requirements and they want, you know, documentation,
and they want to make sure that you know, these
like archival holders or third parties won't have any kind
of like remedies or rights against your project. I think
that an attorney can really assist you with like talking
(08:53):
through what you need. And not only that, but I
think that sometimes these things can get contentious. I think
that legal terms can be a little daunting, definitely, But
you know, I think having an attorney there to talk
you through it and assure you that it's not as
stressful as it may be is the best case scenario.
You know, Like I've had I've had a lot of
(09:13):
people freak out over the word in perpetuity in releases
and things like that, you know, and it's always a
matter of like sitting them down and being like, you know,
like I don't want your rights to your likeness to
do whatever I want, you know, like these are very
limited rights that we have so that we could use,
you know, your likeness or your participation in the project
(09:35):
as it appears in perpetuity, just so that we have
that right, you know. And so it comes down to
like that kind of like small distinction that lawyers are
able to talk you through and make and I think
that's very important, especially to kind of like ease tempers
and you know, kind of make things a little more
soothing moving forward.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah, that's that's an important function in terms of contracts,
like in terms of of the stuff that people need,
because I've seen this throughout my legal career, but mostly
my producing career. What about when people do something wrong?
Are you guys involved in the litigation of making it right?
Do you guys have to do a lot of correction?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
No, so we are not involved in litigation. We have
you know, we know entertainment litigators that we can often
like refer things out too if it gets to that point.
But we primarily handle like the contract situations and you know,
getting you set up for your project, and you know,
like while those issues do come up, and you know,
we can flag them for the client and say like, hey,
(10:35):
this is a problem, this is you know, like what
we suggest moving forward with. But ultimately we do refer
out to actual litigators who can you know, who are
better equipped to help with that.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Okay, So my intention isn't to ask you actual specific
legal questions because you know, filmmakers would love to spend
hours with you, you know, unpaid obviously, But I just want
to ask you one area an intellectual property law, about
the area of fair use, because a lot of filmmakers
are confused by this where something that is in the
public domain or is not going to infringe some type
(11:10):
of you know, copyright or something like that, can they
use it or not? Do you deal with that kind
of stuff or is that for litigations firms?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, so we do deal with clearance and fair use issues.
We have an attorney, Jackie Ward at our firm, who
specializes in these matters. And so while she specializes in
these matters, you know, we all kind of touch.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
That at the firm.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
You know, it comes up day to day in our
production matters, and so this is something we have exposure to.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And with those.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Kinds of matters, usually when I advise on it, I
you know, stay as safe as possible.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah, if there's a question, err on the side of conservatiism, Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, I feel like that's usually best practice for me,
you know, because I feel like, especially with fair use
and clearance, you know, like I feel like those lawsuits
have the ability to get very very expensive. Yeah, when
you're you know, defending you know, if somebody used a
trademark something that yeah, a trademark or something that's copyrighted.
You know, those suits can get very very expensive, and
(12:10):
so we do you know, I like to take a
more conservative approach, but we do handle that at the firm,
and you know, we typically handle like, you know, like
one off clearance questions, particularly for docs. I've had a
lot of that recently, you know, about like filming logos
and you know, with the rise in sports documentaries, there's
been a lot of that. But yeah, I mean we
(12:31):
do advise on that. But ultimately, you know, I would
suggest getting a fair use review on anything you're doing
if you're concerned about it, because you know, like again,
stay on the safe side.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Okay, So we talked a lot about agreements and contracts
that you're going to need for making a movie. Now
your movie's finished, do you guys get involved in the
distribution side as well doing distribution contracts?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yes, we do.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So we have a packaging in sales arm at our
firm and package in sales. You know, they can work
with our clients and they can help get their project
out and you know, set them up with distributors or
sales agents in that realm, and so we the attorneys
at work, will usually work in tandem.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
With packaging and sales.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
You know, like, this doesn't this doesn't mean that the
deal needs to come from packaging and sales. Like you know,
like if you have a distribution deal, you can come
to us and we'd be able to handle it from
term sheet and negotiations on. But usually we do work
in tandem with packaging and sales, and you know, they'll
reach an agreement and we'll get the deal and we
can take it to you know, the finish line. And
(13:36):
we have like a lot of precedent there because we've
done quite a bit of distribution and so we can
be instrumental in that.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Okay, I just want to clarify this for the listeners.
So you're saying that in addition to providing the legal
stuff like the contracts and things, you also have an
arm that does sales where you can connect a filmmaker
and their film to a distributor.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yes, So the firm it's more of like a business
oriented packaging and sales division, and so you know, we
can also set clients up with maybe producers or you know,
somebody who might be interested in their project. But yes,
we also do we take a similar approach with packaging
and sales, where you know, the president packaging in sales,
Tiffany Boyle, she can you know, use her contacts and
(14:19):
reach out to people and see what distributor would be best.
And you know, she has a lot of experience in
this space, so she can let you know, like, well,
who the best distributors are, you know, like who's good
to work with. And so that's a very very helpful
arm to have at the firm.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
And would you your firm, whether it's Tiffany or you
or one of your associates, would you negotiate the distribution
deal or would you the filmmaker do it and you
would just kind of rubber stamp it or how would
that work?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
I mean it could be either you know, if the
filmmaker wants to take it into their own hands, depending
on what the budget is and you know what their
appetite is, but they can they can either do that
or we can, you know, step in and help with negotiations.
And of course we can always advise on you know,
so if you are taking negotiations into your own hands
and you know, you have a question, like you know,
(15:06):
you're negotiating like a collection account agreement or something, and
you know, like SAG has some notes on it and
you don't really know how to proceed. Then you know
you can come to us for kind of one off questions.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Like that, would you also represent distributors or I know
you represent filmmakers because I'm your client, but would you
also represent distribution companies? And obviously if there's a conflict
of interest, you know, filmmaker and a distributor to have
to figure that one out. But do you have a
lot of distributor clients?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I do not believe so, So.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
It's primarily filmmakers.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah, primarily filmmakers. We're very very producer production company filmmaker heavy.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Right on the packaging side the Tiffany's side. Do you
assist in financing as well?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So that's not really in tiffany space.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
We also have a financing department at the firm, and
so this one is led by the partners of Raven
and you know they can assist with financing matters. It's
you know, a little not really my space. Financing to
me can be a little daunting, right, But yeah, no,
we do have like a whole financing team on staff
(16:14):
and they're able to help with that and corporate formation matters.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
It's yeah, very built out right.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So so as a boutique firm, you really do service.
You could service an indie filmmaker from start to finish.
Primarily you can help them get in on the development
financing stage, obviously the production, and then the sales.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah, we can take it from inception to distribution.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
You know, any filmmakers who are listening to this thing,
that would be really nice, Like I could use help
with all three things, and the legal stuff is a
little daunting for me, so maybe it makes sense. Is
that all fee based or is there any you know
structure like a commission structure or something like that, or
is it all up front you know, legal fees because
people are going to think, okay, it's going to be
(16:56):
too expensive, right.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
So I mean there are a few options really. You know,
if you want to do just like production legal services,
then you can either you know, like we said earlier,
maybe you know pay a package where you know you
have a percent of the budget and you know your
attorneys would just use that as a retainer every month
and do your work for you as needed, or you know,
you can submit like a five thousand dollars retainer and
(17:18):
then we would take that against that and build that.
Or you know, for distribution that would also be hourly,
and then packaging and sales has their own kind of
like hourly structure as well. So every you know, it's
not like an all package deal. It's you know, you
can go to each different department and kind of see
what you need.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
How does an Indy filmmaker, you know, and you meet
them all the time, you know, So how do they
find a lawyer? Like they know they need legal services?
There's a one hundred legal firms within probably ten miles
where I'm sitting here in Hollywood. How do they find you?
How do they find the right level? Like you guys
are a boutique firm, there's obviously the bigger firms, there's
(17:59):
the sole practitioner. How would they go looking and how
do they choose the right one for their project?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So, I mean it really depends.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I feel like a lot of people that we receive,
a lot of clients that have been referred to me
have been you know, kind of word of mouth. So
a lot of you know, if I have like a
producer client on a show or something like that, and
they have another friend who wants to get something started,
they can refer them to me or you know, we
also get attorney referrals as well, so like that can
(18:27):
come from like a talent attorney who enjoyed working with you.
So it kind of comes from like every angle in
that sense. But usually I mean, if you want to
find an entertainment attorney that works for you, I would say,
just do the best research you can. Or like if
you really really like a show, you know, like if
you have like a documentary or something that you like,
I would always say stick around to the end and
(18:48):
look at who did production legal. You know, that'll give
you like a good idea of like what kind of
names are out there, And yeah, it'll give you a
good idea of who's in the space and who is
doing what you know, like for example, are Firm does
America's Sweetheart Styles, Cowboy's Cheerleaders, and a few other boardwalk projects,
and so you know, I would always encourage anybody you
(19:09):
stick around to look for our names and the credits.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Is there a sweet spot in terms of budget levels
as to what you guys deal with it? Like is
it a low budget andy films sort of medium, like
you know, five hundred thousand to five million, or is
it above that or is it all over the place.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
It's all over the place, really, And I mean, you know,
it's not just I feel like we have you know,
shorts and animated things coming in and not only that,
but like I feel like in the last few years,
with the way that things shifted after the strike year,
you know, there have been a lot more people coming
in with brand work and ip work and things like that,
(19:45):
and so lately there's just been like a big diversity
of things and so it's not just like films and
projects like that. So that's been an interesting adjustment and
it's been cool to get into.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Okay, just a personal question, you know, if they answer
it if you don't want. But like, when you went
to law school, did you go with the intention of
working in entertainment law or did that just happen?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I mean law school just happened. It was not good. Yeah,
I mean I was going to be.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
A professor for the longest time. I wanted to teach
like medieval fiction in colleges, and then on a whim,
I was like, all right, like, I guess I'm going
to law school. I don't know what possessed me to
do that, but I ended up doing it. And I
had gotten really into The Real Housewives like early into
law school, just to kind of like push law school
(20:32):
and like those.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
The thoughts of readings out of my mind.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
And I think that's when it clicked and I was like, oh,
like I really like this, and you know, like I
think maybe I could like negotiate their contracts. And during
oral arguments, I had like my fake judge was like
an in house business affairs council like at Disney or something,
and yeah, and that's when I was like, Okay, like
this is what I'm going to do. It took a
(20:55):
little while, and it was like a weird first year
of law school, not really knowing what I wanted to do.
But when it made sense, it made sense.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
You know, when I went to law school, there wasn't
really something called entertainment law. I don't want to date myself.
It was contract law for entertainment clients, media and entertainment
people who were in the entertainment business. But it was
you know, there wasn't specific other than intellectual property, which
is what I specialized in you know, copyright, trademark, that
type of thing. So that didn't drive you necessarily. Do
(21:26):
you have aspirations of being a filmmaker.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
No, And honestly, if I like think back for far
enough on my life in high school, I was saying
that I wanted to be a music supervisor. That was
like my dream job when I was in high school.
And so it just kind of like makes sense that
I would go on this trajectory.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Because I went to law school with the intention of
being a film producer. That's why I went to law
schools because my dad said, if you want to be
a successful film producer, you got to either get a
business degree or law degree. And I trusted him and
he was right. It helped a lot to be able
to navigate all of the business side of the of
the industry. Okay, I'm going to let you take a
minute to plug your firm if you want, because a
(22:05):
lot of filmmakers are going to be listening to this
podcast and they're going to say, should we go to
Ramo Law and tell us why we should?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yes, one hundred percent, come to Remo Law.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
We can provide full service legal services to you on
your entertainment project. You know, if you want to check
out some projects that we've done, Like I said, we
did America's Sweetheart Styles, Cowboard Cheerleaders Welcome to.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Wrexham is another one.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
And I am particularly proud of the Picture in the
Summers that just came out. That was my first indie
film doing production legal on and it just recently came
out on Hulu.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
So yeah, congrats. Okay, well, thank you very much for
taking the time to talk. It is very interesting in
a subject that people usually aren't too interested in but
know the importance of. So Tatiana appreciate you coming on.
And to all you filmmakers who get too intimidated by
legal work, I think a Tiana is probably a good
(23:01):
person to deal with because you'll make it very friendly
and take care of business for you.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So good luck, thank you, job
All right, So today we're going to talk about something
that a lot of filmmakers don't like to talk about,
which is the legal aspects of filmmaking. When you're making
a film, there's lots of contracts, lots of legal components,
and we're going to address them in today's episode. If
you want to be a successful indie filmmaker, you need
(00:20):
to know a lot about not just the production of movies,
but the business. We are going to tell you the
truth and reality of what really happens in the indie
film business. All right, So today I have a special guest,
Tatiana Perez of Ramo Law, and they are a boutique
(00:41):
law firm in Los Angeles that specializes in film production.
I know that you do a lot of indie films
because I'm one of your clients. So I deal with
one of Tatiana's associates at the firm. But Tatiana, can
you just introduce yourself, tell us you know sort of
what you do at the firm and your background.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
So my name is Tatiana Perez and I am an
associate every Mole Law. I work on the production legal team,
and I primarily work on indie film and I also
work on a bit of unscripted, so that could be
either series or film.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
So I work on the production.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Legal team, and I have been there for three years
at this point. I started off as their intern, and
then I was their law clerk, and then I was
their associate as soon as I passed the bar, and
I've been there since then, just working with different teams
on production legal matters, some clearance matters, and some distribution
matters as well. So that's a little bit about what
(01:40):
I do. But the firm is, as you said, full
service boutique. We do pretty much everything.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So on the production legal side, you take for granted
that people know what you do, but they actually don't,
and it's sort of intimidating to a lot of filmmakers.
I'll start and you just fill in the hole. So
I know you guys, you can do the full sort
of gambit of all of the contracts, and in a film,
if you're doing it properly, you're going to have contracts
for cast, for crew locations, insurance components, potentially financing components.
(02:10):
So you'll do all those contracts right.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yes, we do all of that from the project's inception
to distribution. Once you're delivering it and getting it ready to.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Go, and also maybe writers or writers agreements, and or
if you're acquiring a property, all the intellectual property stuff,
you'll do the whole gambit.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Yes, definitely, that chain of title stuff is very important
at the very beginning, just to get it all figured
out and make sure that you know who has the
rights so you can avoid any problems later on on
the line.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay, so most indie filmmakers understand that they're going to
need to do this properly, but they're a little intimidated
by it by two things. One is they don't really
understand a lot of the components that go into this,
and also they're worried about the price. Let's go to price,
and I know, like, I'm not asking you to necessarily
name because each project's going to be sort of a
different level of complex city. I'm sure, what should an
(03:01):
indie filmmaker expect to pay for, say a package of
or you know, legal representation or whatever they need on
an indie film.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
I would say that they should expect to pay at
least one percent of the budget. And I think what
that would do is really make sure that you're getting
comprehensive legal services to ensure that you're not getting into
these situations later on down.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
The line when you're delivering and you know you're.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Submitting archival licenses or something like that to your distributor
and you realize that you're missing a bunch of terms,
or you know, the archival license that you paid for
isn't necessarily the one you need, and so that could
end up with cost ballooning. You don't really want that,
especially later on down the line, once everything is said
and done and you've made your project. So I think
(03:47):
setting aside one percent of your budget early on in
the production process and making sure that you're working with
your attorneys not only for you know, like performers and
chain of title and things like that, but making sure
that you're getting their advice in their council along the way.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
That, right there is the way that you're.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Going to ensure you get the most bank for your
book and you're not getting into these situations later on
where you have to pay thousands of dollars that you
may not necessarily have.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Right, Okay, you just threw it on two legal terms.
Just I just want to clarify before I go back
to that one percent. So archival and chain a title.
By the way, I am a lawyer, so I want
you to explain it. But yeah, so I have a
lot of degree as well.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So yes, So archival licenses are primarily heavy in the
dock space. If you are you know, you want to
use footage from parade years and years ago, you would
have to go locate the license holder if you know
whoever the owner is, and then once you you know,
make an agreement with them, you need to ensure that,
(04:47):
like you have certain rights in order to deliver it properly.
So you know, you want to make sure that you
can assign the agreement. You want to make sure that
if there are any issues with that footage that the
owner of the footage can't come after you and get
an injunction against you and you know, stop the entire
project from coming out or stop you from being able
(05:07):
to show it any further. So that is something to
consider when you have an archival license. The same goes
for you know, music and other things like that, but
chain of title.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Chain of title is.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Focused on who owns the project and who is the
rights holder.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Of the project.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
So ultimately, you know, if you write something if you're
a writer pen to paper, you are the owner, and
you can go file that with the copyright office, and
you know, everything is said and done. You're the claimant,
you're the owner, you're the author all of that. But
if you are contracting with a production company and you
want to get this, you know, the script that you
wrote turned into an idea and turned into an actual project.
(05:48):
If you contract with this production company, you need to
assign the rights to the production company so that they
are technically the owner and holder of those rights. And
so this can get a little tricky, you know, if
you have co writers or you know, if you've like
assigned the agreement a few times, or if the screenplay
has gone through a few hands at that point.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So that is the main concern of a chain of title,
just ownership in general.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Okay, so just back to the fees, like the one percent,
and I'm talking from my legal experience. So if you're
doing a million dollar film and one percent, say one
hundred thousand, I mean that that I think is more
than enough to cover the legal package. And even if
you're doing five hundred thousand and you're maybe at fifty thousand,
but what happens you're doing one hundred thousand dollars film
and you're at one thousand dollars, is that going to
(06:35):
cover your your legal fees?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
No that I do not think that would come.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
No, No, it would. So I would say there's a minimum,
Like minimums that I've seen thrown around are about the
opening numbers five thousand, and that is bare bones. I'm
thinking it's more like ten to fifteen. Is that about right?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, five thousand is usually what our firm starts with
in terms of a retainer, and so we just bill
against that. But I mean, ultimately, it really depends on
the amount of work that you have.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So if you are working on a project and you
just need a few licenses, you need a few releases,
then that can definitely fall within the five thousand dollars range,
you know. And these releases and the licenses they can't
they come proform a and standard with you know, everything
that you need to distribute the project, and so that
takes care of you there. But it really depends on
(07:28):
what your needs are and you know how new you
are to filmmaking, and you know, like how much help
you need with that kind of process, because you know, oftentimes.
I mean your attorney can also kind of assist you
with that as well, just talk you through some of
the decisions you're making. But yeah, it really it really
depends on what your appetite is and how much legal
you need.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Well, I'm going to give you a chance to plug
the legal profession. So a lot of indie filmmakers are
begun saying to me for years actually now, but even
more so, why can't I just go on the internet
and download these Templar eight contracts or better yet, go
to chat GPT and have them dictate a contract, you know,
say here's what I need and out pops a contract.
How come that isn't appropriate?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I mean, you can do that, it's you know, you
can go ahead and get a form. But the thing
is that lawyers can be the ones that really explain
what could be the actual result of what you agree to.
You know, So, like back to the archival, if you're
you know, if you're agreeing to whatever and you just
agree to sign the license as is, you never know
(08:30):
what the distributor is going to need. So I mean,
if you end up, you know, selling to a Netflix
or like a Max or something like that, and they
have very stringent requirements and they want, you know, documentation,
and they want to make sure that you know, these
like archival holders or third parties won't have any kind
of like remedies or rights against your project. I think
that an attorney can really assist you with like talking
(08:53):
through what you need. And not only that, but I
think that sometimes these things can get contentious. I think
that legal terms can be a little daunting, definitely, But
you know, I think having an attorney there to talk
you through it and assure you that it's not as
stressful as it may be is the best case scenario.
You know, Like I've had I've had a lot of
(09:13):
people freak out over the word in perpetuity in releases
and things like that, you know, and it's always a
matter of like sitting them down and being like, you know,
like I don't want your rights to your likeness to
do whatever I want, you know, like these are very
limited rights that we have so that we could use,
you know, your likeness or your participation in the project
(09:35):
as it appears in perpetuity, just so that we have
that right, you know. And so it comes down to
like that kind of like small distinction that lawyers are
able to talk you through and make and I think
that's very important, especially to kind of like ease tempers
and you know, kind of make things a little more
soothing moving forward.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah, that's that's an important function in terms of contracts,
like in terms of of the stuff that people need,
because I've seen this throughout my legal career, but mostly
my producing career. What about when people do something wrong?
Are you guys involved in the litigation of making it right?
Do you guys have to do a lot of correction?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
No, so we are not involved in litigation. We have
you know, we know entertainment litigators that we can often
like refer things out too if it gets to that point.
But we primarily handle like the contract situations and you know,
getting you set up for your project, and you know,
like while those issues do come up, and you know,
we can flag them for the client and say like, hey,
(10:35):
this is a problem, this is you know, like what
we suggest moving forward with. But ultimately we do refer
out to actual litigators who can you know, who are
better equipped to help with that.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Okay, So my intention isn't to ask you actual specific
legal questions because you know, filmmakers would love to spend
hours with you, you know, unpaid obviously, But I just want
to ask you one area an intellectual property law, about
the area of fair use, because a lot of filmmakers
are confused by this where something that is in the
public domain or is not going to infringe some type
(11:10):
of you know, copyright or something like that, can they
use it or not? Do you deal with that kind
of stuff or is that for litigations firms?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, so we do deal with clearance and fair use issues.
We have an attorney, Jackie Ward at our firm, who
specializes in these matters. And so while she specializes in
these matters, you know, we all kind of touch.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
That at the firm.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
You know, it comes up day to day in our
production matters, and so this is something we have exposure to.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And with those.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Kinds of matters, usually when I advise on it, I
you know, stay as safe as possible.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah, if there's a question, err on the side of conservatiism, Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, I feel like that's usually best practice for me,
you know, because I feel like, especially with fair use
and clearance, you know, like I feel like those lawsuits
have the ability to get very very expensive. Yeah, when
you're you know, defending you know, if somebody used a
trademark something that yeah, a trademark or something that's copyrighted.
You know, those suits can get very very expensive, and
(12:10):
so we do you know, I like to take a
more conservative approach, but we do handle that at the firm,
and you know, we typically handle like, you know, like
one off clearance questions, particularly for docs. I've had a
lot of that recently, you know, about like filming logos
and you know, with the rise in sports documentaries, there's
been a lot of that. But yeah, I mean we
(12:31):
do advise on that. But ultimately, you know, I would
suggest getting a fair use review on anything you're doing
if you're concerned about it, because you know, like again,
stay on the safe side.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Okay, So we talked a lot about agreements and contracts
that you're going to need for making a movie. Now
your movie's finished, do you guys get involved in the
distribution side as well doing distribution contracts?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yes, we do.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So we have a packaging in sales arm at our
firm and package in sales. You know, they can work
with our clients and they can help get their project
out and you know, set them up with distributors or
sales agents in that realm, and so we the attorneys
at work, will usually work in tandem.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
With packaging and sales.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
You know, like, this doesn't this doesn't mean that the
deal needs to come from packaging and sales. Like you know,
like if you have a distribution deal, you can come
to us and we'd be able to handle it from
term sheet and negotiations on. But usually we do work
in tandem with packaging and sales, and you know, they'll
reach an agreement and we'll get the deal and we
can take it to you know, the finish line. And
(13:36):
we have like a lot of precedent there because we've
done quite a bit of distribution and so we can
be instrumental in that.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Okay, I just want to clarify this for the listeners.
So you're saying that in addition to providing the legal
stuff like the contracts and things, you also have an
arm that does sales where you can connect a filmmaker
and their film to a distributor.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yes, So the firm it's more of like a business
oriented packaging and sales division, and so you know, we
can also set clients up with maybe producers or you know,
somebody who might be interested in their project. But yes,
we also do we take a similar approach with packaging
and sales, where you know, the president packaging in sales,
Tiffany Boyle, she can you know, use her contacts and
(14:19):
reach out to people and see what distributor would be best.
And you know, she has a lot of experience in
this space, so she can let you know, like, well,
who the best distributors are, you know, like who's good
to work with. And so that's a very very helpful
arm to have at the firm.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
And would you your firm, whether it's Tiffany or you
or one of your associates, would you negotiate the distribution
deal or would you the filmmaker do it and you
would just kind of rubber stamp it or how would
that work?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
I mean it could be either you know, if the
filmmaker wants to take it into their own hands, depending
on what the budget is and you know what their
appetite is, but they can they can either do that
or we can, you know, step in and help with negotiations.
And of course we can always advise on you know,
so if you are taking negotiations into your own hands
and you know, you have a question, like you know,
(15:06):
you're negotiating like a collection account agreement or something, and
you know, like SAG has some notes on it and
you don't really know how to proceed. Then you know
you can come to us for kind of one off questions.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Like that, would you also represent distributors or I know
you represent filmmakers because I'm your client, but would you
also represent distribution companies? And obviously if there's a conflict
of interest, you know, filmmaker and a distributor to have
to figure that one out. But do you have a
lot of distributor clients?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I do not believe so, So.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
It's primarily filmmakers.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah, primarily filmmakers. We're very very producer production company filmmaker heavy.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Right on the packaging side the Tiffany's side. Do you
assist in financing as well?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So that's not really in tiffany space.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
We also have a financing department at the firm, and
so this one is led by the partners of Raven
and you know they can assist with financing matters. It's
you know, a little not really my space. Financing to
me can be a little daunting, right, But yeah, no,
we do have like a whole financing team on staff
(16:14):
and they're able to help with that and corporate formation matters.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
It's yeah, very built out right.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So so as a boutique firm, you really do service.
You could service an indie filmmaker from start to finish.
Primarily you can help them get in on the development
financing stage, obviously the production, and then the sales.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah, we can take it from inception to distribution.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
You know, any filmmakers who are listening to this thing,
that would be really nice, Like I could use help
with all three things, and the legal stuff is a
little daunting for me, so maybe it makes sense. Is
that all fee based or is there any you know
structure like a commission structure or something like that, or
is it all up front you know, legal fees because
people are going to think, okay, it's going to be
(16:56):
too expensive, right.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
So I mean there are a few options really. You know,
if you want to do just like production legal services,
then you can either you know, like we said earlier,
maybe you know pay a package where you know you
have a percent of the budget and you know your
attorneys would just use that as a retainer every month
and do your work for you as needed, or you know,
you can submit like a five thousand dollars retainer and
(17:18):
then we would take that against that and build that.
Or you know, for distribution that would also be hourly,
and then packaging and sales has their own kind of
like hourly structure as well. So every you know, it's
not like an all package deal. It's you know, you
can go to each different department and kind of see
what you need.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
How does an Indy filmmaker, you know, and you meet
them all the time, you know, So how do they
find a lawyer? Like they know they need legal services?
There's a one hundred legal firms within probably ten miles
where I'm sitting here in Hollywood. How do they find you?
How do they find the right level? Like you guys
are a boutique firm, there's obviously the bigger firms, there's
(17:59):
the sole practitioner. How would they go looking and how
do they choose the right one for their project?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So, I mean it really depends.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I feel like a lot of people that we receive,
a lot of clients that have been referred to me
have been you know, kind of word of mouth. So
a lot of you know, if I have like a
producer client on a show or something like that, and
they have another friend who wants to get something started,
they can refer them to me or you know, we
also get attorney referrals as well, so like that can
(18:27):
come from like a talent attorney who enjoyed working with you.
So it kind of comes from like every angle in
that sense. But usually I mean, if you want to
find an entertainment attorney that works for you, I would say,
just do the best research you can. Or like if
you really really like a show, you know, like if
you have like a documentary or something that you like,
I would always say stick around to the end and
(18:48):
look at who did production legal. You know, that'll give
you like a good idea of like what kind of
names are out there, And yeah, it'll give you a
good idea of who's in the space and who is
doing what you know, like for example, are Firm does
America's Sweetheart Styles, Cowboy's Cheerleaders, and a few other boardwalk projects,
and so you know, I would always encourage anybody you
(19:09):
stick around to look for our names and the credits.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Is there a sweet spot in terms of budget levels
as to what you guys deal with it? Like is
it a low budget andy films sort of medium, like
you know, five hundred thousand to five million, or is
it above that or is it all over the place.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
It's all over the place, really, And I mean, you know,
it's not just I feel like we have you know,
shorts and animated things coming in and not only that,
but like I feel like in the last few years,
with the way that things shifted after the strike year,
you know, there have been a lot more people coming
in with brand work and ip work and things like that,
(19:45):
and so lately there's just been like a big diversity
of things and so it's not just like films and
projects like that. So that's been an interesting adjustment and
it's been cool to get into.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Okay, just a personal question, you know, if they answer
it if you don't want. But like, when you went
to law school, did you go with the intention of
working in entertainment law or did that just happen?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I mean law school just happened. It was not good. Yeah,
I mean I was going to be.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
A professor for the longest time. I wanted to teach
like medieval fiction in colleges, and then on a whim,
I was like, all right, like, I guess I'm going
to law school. I don't know what possessed me to
do that, but I ended up doing it. And I
had gotten really into The Real Housewives like early into
law school, just to kind of like push law school
(20:32):
and like those.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
The thoughts of readings out of my mind.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
And I think that's when it clicked and I was like, oh,
like I really like this, and you know, like I
think maybe I could like negotiate their contracts. And during
oral arguments, I had like my fake judge was like
an in house business affairs council like at Disney or something,
and yeah, and that's when I was like, Okay, like
this is what I'm going to do. It took a
(20:55):
little while, and it was like a weird first year
of law school, not really knowing what I wanted to do.
But when it made sense, it made sense.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
You know, when I went to law school, there wasn't
really something called entertainment law. I don't want to date myself.
It was contract law for entertainment clients, media and entertainment
people who were in the entertainment business. But it was
you know, there wasn't specific other than intellectual property, which
is what I specialized in you know, copyright, trademark, that
type of thing. So that didn't drive you necessarily. Do
(21:26):
you have aspirations of being a filmmaker.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
No, And honestly, if I like think back for far
enough on my life in high school, I was saying
that I wanted to be a music supervisor. That was
like my dream job when I was in high school.
And so it just kind of like makes sense that
I would go on this trajectory.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Because I went to law school with the intention of
being a film producer. That's why I went to law
schools because my dad said, if you want to be
a successful film producer, you got to either get a
business degree or law degree. And I trusted him and
he was right. It helped a lot to be able
to navigate all of the business side of the of
the industry. Okay, I'm going to let you take a
minute to plug your firm if you want, because a
(22:05):
lot of filmmakers are going to be listening to this
podcast and they're going to say, should we go to
Ramo Law and tell us why we should?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yes, one hundred percent, come to Remo Law.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
We can provide full service legal services to you on
your entertainment project. You know, if you want to check
out some projects that we've done, Like I said, we
did America's Sweetheart Styles, Cowboard Cheerleaders Welcome to.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Wrexham is another one.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
And I am particularly proud of the Picture in the
Summers that just came out. That was my first indie
film doing production legal on and it just recently came
out on Hulu.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
So yeah, congrats. Okay, well, thank you very much for
taking the time to talk. It is very interesting in
a subject that people usually aren't too interested in but
know the importance of. So Tatiana appreciate you coming on.
And to all you filmmakers who get too intimidated by
legal work, I think a Tiana is probably a good
(23:01):
person to deal with because you'll make it very friendly
and take care of business for you.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So good luck, thank you, job
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