June 25, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode of Indie Filmmaking with Jeff Deverett, Jeff is joined by special guest James Covell, a veteran film composer, to pull back the curtain on the role of music in indie film.James and Jeff share their first-hand experiences — from choosing the perfect score to match your story’s mood, to navigating the pros, cons, and reality of scoring a small-budget film.Topics covered in this episode:
- The creative process of composing for film
- Why choosing the right piece of music can make or break a scene
- Tips for working with a composer on a tight budget
- Cost-effective alternatives, from needle drops to production libraries
- The most efficient ways to find or license music when resources are limited
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You want to make a great indie film, one of
the most important components is the music. The music is
what captures the emotion and helps to tell the story
in a great way. Today, we're going to talk about music.
If you want to be a successful indie filmmaker, you
need to know a lot about not just the production
(00:20):
of movies, but the business. We are going to tell
you the truth and reality of what really happens in
the indie film business today. I'm really excited because we
have James Cavell, who is a music composer for movies,
indie films, and I had the pleasure of working with
(00:41):
him on one of my recent films called God Is Good.
I got to see James style. I think I drove
him crazy telling him all the things that we had
that I sort of envisioned with the music. But James
is a true artist, and he really captured the essence
of the movie and really elevated to another level by
creating an unbelievable music score. So we're going to talk
(01:03):
to James on how music can really change the nature
of a film. Hello, James, welcome to the program. It's
great to be here. I think thanks you for that introduction.
That's that's that's very kind of you. None of it's true,
but it's but I did my best. Yeah, you know,
but I gotta make it sound good for the for
the audience.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
That's right, you gotta sell, sell, sell.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
You actually did do your best. And you know what,
you are a professional because you're not the first composer
I've dealt with. I got to tell you that, I
I mean, I'm not a musician, and I really appreciate
good music, especially good score, because like I said in
the intro, it does really help elevate the telling of
the story. Music is what really captures the emotion and
(01:43):
passion of the characters and the scenes, and it can
change the whole nature of a scene, as you know.
So you've been doing this for a long time. So
let's just start sort of how'd you get into it? Like,
are you a musician by trade or what?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
How did you you know?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I grew up singing a church choir from age one
or two, and so I sang in choir and then
my first musical instruments was a trumpet because I thought
Herb Albert and the Tiawana brass and plane it sounded
like a cool thing. And then I taught myself guitar
in junior high cause that's.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
How you get girls.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And then I took pane lessons in high school because
that's how you get girls also.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And no, your guitar is how you get girls.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, the guitar, I said, I guess pianos how you
get sophisticated girls. So so I was always writing songs
from very very early on, and I was just engaged
in the music community. There was nobody in my family
that was in the music business. The only instrument my
father could play was the radio. But he did expose
me to a lot of cool things, like, you know,
Dave Brewback and you know, all of those kind of
(02:40):
cool jazz people, not King Cole.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know, a lot of the audience probably doesn't know
these people, but I know them all.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Oh okay, I brew Back her, all of the calls,
the jazz greats I I I sort of grew up
listening to. But I also had listened to FM radio.
I went to sleep every night with the radio underneath
my pillows. So I was infused in pop music as well.
So I really I came to sort of life when
the Beatles came in or the Beatles were just slightly
(03:07):
older than me.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
But I love But.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Here's the thing. A lot of people love music, obviously,
and a lot of people play music and everything like that.
But to transition into becoming a composer, like in the
movie business, that's a whole other trend. Like when did
you realize that was going to happen and how did it?
How did you take your musical sort of love for
music and talent and transition to become a composer.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
So, yeah, I thought I was going to be. I
wanted to be Elton John, or at least the straight
version of Elton John, you know, at one point. And
so when I transferred to USC in my junior year
of college, because I decided that, like, okay, I really
like music, writing music, and I like music for films,
and I just liked writing music for anything.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Do they have a program there, music composition program?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, us see well now I got
my degree in quote legit music. But there were composers
that were that were teaching, like David Ratskin and people
like that. And of course the film school at USC
was was you know, the film school, So Lucas and
Spielberg had been there about ten or fifteen years before me,
and so the film school is really coming up, and
so I started scoring films at USC and that was
(04:10):
my first taste of like, okay, well hey, I like
doing this. So that's that's how I really got into
the film scoring business.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
And so over the course of whatever years you've been
doing it, how many movies do you think or series
or what I mean, where do you focus?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Is it movies?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Is it whatever's paying cash at the moment. That's why
I focus on That's always my favorite project.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Good.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
But I've worked with a London Symphony, I've written and
composed with London Symphony, and then I've written music for
TV shows. I have two seasons of Tom and Jerry
on HBO Max right now. So I do animation or
I'll do you know, disaster movies, or I really enjoyed
working on your movie which was which was a smaller
independent kind of film. And then I have music every
(04:53):
day on the Discovery Channel. Just have thousands of hours
of music on that channel.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Okay, So let's let's just talk about the indie film business,
all right. So you did score the music for this
faith based film that we had called God Is good.
And I remember I found you at a screening. We
were at the same screening a movie that you had
also scored, and I enjoyed it and I said, wow,
I gotta I went up to the producer of the
movie and I said, who's the guy who wrote the
music for this? And they said, who happens to be here?
(05:21):
And that was a coincidental meeting. Yeah, So let's just
talk about first of all, in terms of indie films.
I mean, often people don't have a budget to do
original music music said can. It can be a confusing
area for low budget indie filmmakers because everybody's envisions these
what we call these needle drop big songs, right, but
they can't afford them. It's too expensive to license that.
(05:43):
And often they say, I can't afford a composer too,
So I'm just gonna go on to these license sites,
so kind of speak to that. Does it make sense
to bring in a composer.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It does make sense, And I'll tell you why it
makes sense because I talked to young composers all the
time and they're all hungry to do something. I literally
was just at a meeting of of seventy independent you know, composer, writer, editors,
producers last night, and I'm talking to a composer last
night and he says, how do I get sort of
the next place? And I said, just find somebody with
a camera that wants to do something and write something.
(06:13):
I could probably send you.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
You know ten.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Guys today that will do music for anything, and they
have other jobs, the other gigs they're doing at the
same time, but they're all hungry to do music for
low budget independent films just to kind of get there,
just to get something on screen.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, And in fact, these schools, the schools turn out
like USC has a composer's program where they just crank out,
and Berkeley also cranks out composers just like by the
hundreds every year.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So there's no shortage of talent.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
There's a lot of talent out there. You just have
to find them.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
But that's sort of new aspiring young ones. Yes, right,
you're not in that category. You are an experienced you know.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
That's why I charge hundreds of dollars instead of fair enough,
fair enough, Okay, right, how do you know when you
say meet a guy like me?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So I come up to you at screening and I say, hi, Jim.
I'm Jeff Everett. I made a movie. I need music
for it. I tell you a little bit about it.
In this case, you actually heard about it.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, how do you know that?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Like we're going to be the right fit together. Obviously
we're going to negotiate the deal, right.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Sure, But you know, let me be honest with you.
Whenever I hire somebody new that I haven't worked with before,
just specifically on the artistic side, I mean, music is
an art. Yeah, Like if I'm hiring a writer, a director,
you know, some type of composer or something like that,
this is art. This is story. Even I don't know
for sure what I'm going to get now. I just
finished listening to one of your soundtracks, so I'm thinking,
(07:36):
this guy definitely has talent. But you know, I'm going
to take a chance on your side. How do you
know that I'm not a nutcase? Or you know, maybe
that's what you felt.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Well, you know, it's like getting a dance partner. You're
you're signing it for a dance partner, and so you
take the first couple of steps. When I engage in
any project, I'm looking for three things. I'm looking for art, cash,
or a future contact. Those are three things I'm looking for.
And if I see one of those three things in there,
I I'm glad to jump in on the dance. So
if there's art, cash, or some kind of future contact,
(08:08):
I really believe in this person. This person is going somewhere,
no matter how bad the film might be. I know
that they've got potential.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So I just you just sort of the third thing,
you know, yeah, contact, Yeah, but the first one art.
I mean, I'm not going to negotiate here with you,
and but you're gonna tell me that you find you
look at the movie and you say, hey, this is
really good. I want to be part of it. But
they have no cash. I mean, you're gonna need to
have cash. There's got to be got to make a living.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yes, I mean, but if I if I see that
someone that's got what I perceive is real talent and
they're starting from nothing, I might write something specifically for them,
or I might just give the music from my library
for something. But I'm gonna do everything that I can
for that that artist that I think like, this person
is going to go somewhere, and I will do something
for them, you.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Know, at at you know, a.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Reasonable price, reasonable price, discount of rate, you know. Yeah, yeah,
if there's if there's some money involved I or or
future you know, I'll I'll hold onto the publishing or
something like that or do something that that will you know,
give me something further down the road.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah. The audience is all thinking, okay, what did what
did I bring?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Was it art?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Cash or future medential?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
It was cash, folks, there was cash. Now you hit
all three of you hit all three of those things.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Well, I can say distribution is going to be a
big one because I'm so bent on distribution, So your
music hopefully will be seen heard by a lot of
people because I'm going to release the film properly. Yeah,
so that's a big one, you know which matters? Yeah,
definitely Art we don't have to talk about. That's an
opinion thing. But let's actually I do want to talk
about that for a second. So in some ways I
feel like I drove you a little crazy. I am
(09:38):
super part Look, I'm a director. Everybody who directs this
particular about their art, right, But I don't have a
trained dear like you do. I'm not, you know, you do.
I respect that you are way more experienced and talented
and have a year. But I said to you one day,
I said, I know who my audience is, and I
want to spoon feed my audience a certain way, and
(09:58):
I want you to kind of re quote the theme
over and over and over. And we didn't always agree
on that, right, I mean, now you are pro and
you're respectful of the fact that I you know, I'm
your client. Sure you're gonna satisfy me, but I respect
the fact that you didn't agree with me sometimes. And no,
we came to a happy medium. But how was that
like working with a director who can be maybe you know,
(10:20):
a little pushy, your onerus or whatever.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Well, I here's the thing. I'm dressing your child. You're
bringing your child to me, and you want me to
put clothes on your child. I'm dressing your child, and
my job is to fill in make your child look
as best as you want your.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Child to look.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Now, I'll suggest things. Okay, I think this child would
be better with a blue blazer or a pink dress.
And if you don't like that, and you're not happy
with that, when you walk out, and when you're done,
you're gonna think I'm never gonna work with that guy.
Again because he dressed my kid like a sob. So
that's my job. So I have to I have to
fill in. I have to make your vision because you're
(10:58):
the director what it needs to be. Now, I'm a composer,
and if I want my vision, I'll write concert. I'll
music write music a concert.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
You know, there is a happy medium because because you
did pretty a pretty good job of managing sort of
my expectations and saying, you know, Jeff, I understand you
want that blue blazer, but can I show you what
a green blazer is gonna look like? And maybe you
just haven't considered a green blazer. You did that with me, Yeah, right,
I mean I love this analogy by the way, right
so visual, you know, yeah, because I would never have
(11:27):
considered the green blazer, but you said, let me just
show you what that would look like, and you kind
of put a piece of you know, clip in or whatever, queue.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
And and and that's that's what collaboration really is. Yeah,
that's where we're collaborating and we're making something better than
than would have had just been with one of us.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
So collaboration is really the key here.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Being respectful is always You were always respectful to me.
But I'm also going to default. Eventually. I will push
and push and push until I realize, no, it's.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Not worth it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So I'm gonna get this far as far I'm gonna get.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, And you know, even John Williams says, you know,
if I get, if I get two good cues out
of a film, I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
He says that, Yeah. If John Williams has saved so
many movies, yeah right. I mean these directors should be
thankful if he gets if.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
He gets two good cues and them I think, like, why, well,
let's okay. If Johnny's happy with two, I'll be happy
with one.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I wasn't gonna go there. But for viewers who you know,
audience who don't know who John Williams is, what planet
do you live on? But you know we're talking Star Wars,
We're talking some of the greatest soundtracks of all time. Yeah,
movies sound right? I say, like that is a guy
whose soundtracks have elevated movies to a whole other level
and in a lot of cases save the movies. Yeah, yeah,
(12:39):
because the soundtrack is what people remember. Like, you know,
Rocky is a great movie, but I mean the theme
from Rocky I mean, Jaws is a good movie, but
like the Jaws theme, everybody knows it.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I mean Star Wars.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I love Star Wars, but it was innovative and crazy,
but the soundtrack is eligiously good.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah, music is a language with which we feel for
young filmmakers, I think this is the this is the
mistake they make. They start temp tracking their film with
like big things from like Dune or whatever it is,
you know, and this is this is going to be
a disaster. Okay, do not temp track your stuff with
a bunch of really big things and then expect you well.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
When you fall you fall in love with that.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, right, I call that tempitis.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
You get temp bitis and then you then you're you're
toast because you can't and then you also as a
film direct you get transfixed. Well, gee, it's just not
working for me the way that temp track worked, Well,
that's exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Right, correctly, So you better.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
So you've got to you need to release that and
and try to not put that in.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
It's a common error that everybody makes. It's so easy
to make it because it's so easy just to take
this big you know, needle drop song and stick it
in and see, oh, this sounds great, and then forget
that you can't use it exactly. I do like this tempitis.
That's that's a good name for it. Yeah right, okay,
so when you're doing like sound, all right, because we
agree that sound does create this emotional attach and like
(14:01):
I've often said that if I had to watch a
movie without picture or sound, I would choose without picture
because the music and the dialogue I think tell the story.
The music can often tell the story better than the
picture can because it's getting into somebody's head and telling
the emotion behind the scene.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, it's their imagination. So how do you capture that?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Like, I just feel like you have to be so
talented to understand what that emotion is and then capture
it in sound.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yes, right, okay, So I'm going to make an existential
metaphysical comment first and then I'll go into maybe the details.
But first off, because I believe as Stravinsky said. Stravinsky said,
I don't create anything. I just take what God has
done and I put it out there. I write music.
God is the creator and I make music. So for me,
I feel like the music is flowing through me. It's
(14:50):
not coming from me, but God is literally putting it
out there for through me.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Okay, can I just tell the audience. I mean you're
a faith based guy, so you're using that, Okay, so.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You actually believe? Yes, I truly believe that.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
And there's many of the great composers had I had
a deeply spiritual uh life, also, Stravinsky, Bach, Mozart, all
of these composers, they knew that this this creation of
music which is just you can't really it's so it's
in the fifth dimension, it's coming through.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
They're just the vehicle.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
They're just the vehicle. I am just a vehicle. Every
person in this industry feels like they're a poser. I
just happen to be a calm poser. Okay, So I'm
a composer.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
So I'm I.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Really use a lot of like great analogies in terms
of em I've just I've just maken it up as
I go.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
But film music also is a lot of craft. There's
inspiration and there's art, but there's craft also, And so
that craft is how do I stay out of the
way of the dialogue, How do I support the dialogue?
How do I work with the sound effects and the dialogue,
you know, and how.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Does that all work? So it's a lot of there's
a lot of craft that.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Goes in it, and being willing to erase and not
write every beat of everything that it goes on. If
it's Tom and Jerry, yes I'm hitting every beat at
every single second. But for a film like yours, an
independent film, I'm just trying to support the ideas, to
support the emotion and not get in the way.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Sometimes less is more.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Always Bernard Herman, who is you know, who is Alfred
Hitchcock's composer, said you know, can you put your finger
on what music does in a film? And he would say, no,
I can't put my finger on well what it does?
But does it do something? Absolutely? So it absolutely has
a purpose, it has a reason. But it's a mystical element.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I mean, I would say that music helps evoke the
emotion of people.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
That's what it does.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Yes, And because film is so intimate, because because the
camera is so close on a person, and you can
have a film score that sort of surrounds it. Now,
if you go to the theater and you're watching a play,
music and plays is very sparse, It usually is intrusive
and usually doesn't work. It works as play on and
play off in a drama. In a drama and a musical,
(16:59):
that's a different thing. But because you're so intimate, music
can envelop and surround the motion, the picture of the
story as it goes along.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, So, Jim, one of the greatest challenges I had
that I have in working with composers like you is
try to find the right adjectives or the right words
to describe what I'm looking for. And you said to me,
just talk the way like you're like you're having a
meal or something like that, and I will understand it,
because there's a whole language that musicians talk and the
(17:31):
adjectives they use, and that think you know, I'm using
the words like tempo and upbeat, downbeat, like happy, sad,
these kind of things because I'm trying to express what
I think the emotion or the track should sound like,
and I feel like I'm not expressing it well. I mean,
it must be tricky for you because.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
My job is to interpret that. My job is to
interpret that.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
And I appreciate what you how you approached it, because
that's what I want to I want to hear happy, sad, blue, pink,
yellow chartreuse. I want to hear colors. I want to
hear feelings. I don't want to hear Can you add
more vibrato to the violins? I don't want to hear that.
And and when I work with a director that has
just a little bit of knowledge of music, it's always
a disaster because they'll say, like, can't you bring in
(18:14):
a piccolo here or something like that, or let's just
say inane things, and so I just nod my head
and so, you know, I just sort of go along
with it.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
So talking in emotions and feelings is is what is
what My job is to take those and interpret those
in music. So that's that's what a good composer does.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So I'm learning something as a director on how to
kind of communicate with the composers.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, because when you when you work at actors, you
don't give I mean, the worst thing you can do
is actually give them line readings, you know, I mean
sometimes it's it's it's what's appropriate. But if you give
them lined readings, that kind of like cuts off the actor.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
The actor can't.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Then bring in their own what they're their feeling is
it is, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Like I would say, okay, it needs to be bigger,
more excitable, or something like that, as opposed to try
it this way. Yeah right, yeah, I mean I would
never attempt to tell you what instruments because I don't
even know what instruments. I mean, once in a while
I would say it sounds like there's too much hum
in the back or too much bass or something like that.
I mean, but I don't even know what instrument you're using.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Sometimes I work with directors that have very particular things
about Like I know, Jeffre Katzenberg doesn't like a piano
in a score if it's an outdoor scene, because Jeffrey
Katzenberg thinks that pianos are only indoor instruments.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
So now this is just nonsense, but that's what he does.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
And I've worked with other directors that, for some reason,
you know, they don't like harps, or they don't like it,
would they do, like they don't like the obo because
their mother was an obo player and their mother beat
them with the obo or something like that.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
You know, there's just all kinds.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Of there's people have certain little particular things that they
don't like, and so I'll find out what those things are,
and I take them out what I usually ask directors
in the beginning, I says, what were you listening to
on your iPod when you were writing this script? What
was that you were listening to? Because that will inform me.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
So you didn't ask me that.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
I didn't ask you, and I didn't script though, but
I do ask that a lot because I knew that,
Like when I Titanic, I said, you know what, I know,
James Cameron must have been listening to Enya when he
did that score.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And that's exactly what he was.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
And I knew that within the six verst sixteen bars
that James Horner had just picked up Enya and just
put Enya on the Titanic score. Really yeah, so and
but and again that's where it comes in to, like,
this is what I feel like the movie's about, and
that again helps to inform what the composer's gonna do.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Okay, there's something else you did which I learned from.
And you said to me that we need to use
live instrumentation like you're gonna do recordings. You're gonna bring
in violins and singers and all this kind of stuff,
because it's gonna give it a different texture in a
different feel, and I'm saying, like, do we really want
to spend money on that? You know, all these synthesizers.
(20:47):
We could do it properly with MIDI sounds and all
stuff that I don't even understand. Yeah, and you said, no, no, no, Jeff,
you don't understand. There's a difference. So what is that difference?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Well, depending on what your budget in your time is,
I always try to put at least a couple of
line instruments, whether it's just a guitar player a vocalist.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Uh So we're talking renting a studio and coming in
them recording it and you kind of writing.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
The exactly music and them playing.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Now, your project was was was bigger because I had,
you know, like I had like six violins doubled three times.
Then I had a solo violin and solo cello, some
guitars and that kind of stuff. But if you're doing
a small independent film, and this is what I say,
even a small independent film with its young composer, you know,
he's got a laptop and he's got a microphone. He
can stick that microphone in his bedroom, and a cello
(21:30):
player can come in and play cello parts, or or
a guitar player can play something and that will immediately
elevate your score.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Why explain why.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Well, because it's the difference between using an AI actor
and using a live actor.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
No can come, no, no, no, it's it's I mean
for you, for me and for me, I mean AI
is soon.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Going to be that good. Yeah, we're not there yet.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah yeah, but I think using a live musician it
just it just elevates it.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
It's it's the human factor. I can't.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I'm going to say it's the difference between heating soup
in a microwave or on a stovetop exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, yeah, Okay, the microwave soup will just get cool very.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Quickly, or it'll be burned at the edges or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Where yeah, you know, so they're there.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Anytime you can bring other humans into the process of
writing music, it's just going to make it better. In fact,
I think I think in many ways a piano score
for something that's that's just live, real piano through the
whole thing is maybe better than putting all this other
uh all this other synth kind of stuff into it.
Just look at the firm that's that's Dave Grusoon that's
(22:32):
a great score. That's ninety eight percent piano. But it's
the right piano, it's the right notes for the score,
and it's a live because.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You know a lot of fellow directors of low budget
and it's funny you just you know, you said, didn't
refer to our film as a low budget any film,
but it is a low budget yes, yeah, maybe not
a micro budget film. Yeah. You know you've worked on
other stuff much smaller. Yeah, And so we did actually
have enough budget to actually rent the studio and bring
the musicians in and do it properly all r. Yeah,
which I'm happy about. And I'm happy you push me
(23:00):
in that direction. Yeah, because I do feel like there's
a difference. But I remember we were sitting in the
mixing that day and we brought I brought up the
conversation of music kind of like wine, Like can somebody
actually tell the difference between an expensive wine and a
sort of a mid range wine? And you know, we
were bantering back and forth, but you're saying music is
(23:20):
like and by the way.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I do believe it. I do believe that after I.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Heard the real instrumentation. You know, you had prepared the
track and you had sent it to us as you know,
what do you call it MIDI?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, it's just a ye a MIDI track, MIDI tep track.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Okay, which is which is the same songs, the same scoring,
the same everything. But you did it on your keyboard. Yeah, well,
you know, with you play it in a violin comes
out or whatever. When when I heard the final one,
it was richer, it was bolder, it was oh yeah, yeah,
there was something to it. It's hard for me to
describe it, but.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
It's it's kind of an it factor. I don't know,
it's the human factor.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It's just uh, it's what moves the whole.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Thing up, you know, in just a again, it's it's
a it's a fifth dimensional sort of thing that happens.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yeah, Now do you find that on indie film? So
so music generally comes in in obviously post production. Yeah,
once in a while, somebody you know, is, like you say,
is inspired when they're writing or whatever and they have
songs in minds. But that's usually big budget stuff. In
low budget indie producing, you're usually doing this in post
production and a lot of people haven't tucked away any
money for it, which I would say is a gigantic
(24:26):
mistake in general in post production. You know, some people
don't even tuk away money to edit the movie. They
got to go find it. But music seems to be
like the afterthought with indie producers and directors. I mean,
we'd agree that's a huge mistake.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
That's a big mistake, yees, Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So what should they like, you know, just giving advice
to people who are planning their shoot and their indie film,
like how much should they be tucking away? Should be
a percentage of their budget? What should they be thinking
going into the production for the music?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Think about two? That's great, you know, but that all depends.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I mean, if you've got no money, you know, then
you just figure out, well, so what can I what
can I give? What can I what can I do?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Two percents less than I would have said. I would
have gone five percent, okay, but two percent is workable,
It's very workable. But the reality is.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
The reality is I mean, okay, listen, if you've got
if you're doing an independent ninety minute movie, I would
say the minimum you need to put a stuck away
for a composer and music would be like five thousand
dollars I'm just.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That's just also top my minimum minimum. Okay, that's a
minim minimum. Now, how about.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
People who say, I'm gonna get a needle drop in there,
I'm gonna get this one big song. Can you just
explain to people sort of the cost of that. I mean,
I could do it also, but I'd rather you explain it.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Well, you can do a needle drop, and needle drop is.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Meaning getting a big license, big you know, Taylor Swift
song in your movie and being able to afford it.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
You're not gonna get a Tailor Swift song in your movie.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
You're not gonna get just not get that's that's that's
a two hundred fift five hundred thousand dollars kind of
five hundred okay, yeah, five hundred uh and by an
indie band. There's a lot of indie bands out there
that again are just they'll give you music to put
in their film because it's exposure for them, and it's
and it's.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Just dispel the delusion of thinking you're gonna get, you know,
a big name artist.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
You're never gonna get a big name artists, you never
get a big band. You're gonna waste your time anything
that you hear on the radio, you're not gonna get.
But there's a lot of things on Spotify, and a
lot of artists out there that are doing things that
again will And there's music supervisors out here, at least
in LA, music supervisors that are working to get their
independent bands and that kind of stuff get music on
(26:36):
films or TV shows, and and they're they're doing it
at a cut rate, cut cut.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Right, they want the exposure. Yeah all right, So so
I just I meet so many director producers who are
delusional in thinking that they are going to get these
big songs. And like you say that, what was the
term you used about putting in temp temp You're gonna
bite us? Yeah, tempitus. Tempitus is a.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Bad thing to add virus.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Everybody makes that mistake and gets that virus once in
a while and they put in the big needle drop
and then they get in love, fall in love and
they can't can't get out of their heads. Yeah right, yeah,
So just I wanted to share something about music licensing
because it's super important. It's a very complicated area. A
lot of people don't understand it, but it's so darm
and important to get your music right, So there are
(27:18):
these sites where you can license you know, you're talking
about indie bands and all this kind of stuff. Who
are I agree, they're very anxious to get their music
because they want the exposure. But there's also these these
sites where you can license, you know, pre recorded music
where people artists put their their little jingles or tunes
up or that type of thing.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
What about those?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
And I know you're composure that you know, you're competing
with those basically, or maybe you have stuff up on
those sites.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Yeah, well I have music on that on a site
for a one production company that does everything for the
Discovery Channel, and you can you can use stock it's
just stock music. It's called stock music, and you can
use it and it will be just fine.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
But I hate it.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I hate it because it's just stop music and it
does you get ten different cues or fifteen different cues,
and they're all kind of different. They don't like, they
don't sound like they come out of the same place.
They're not coming out of the same mind, they're not
coming out of the same book. It's just like if
you had a book and you were illustrated your book
and it's used like stock, you know, pictures from a
(28:19):
bunch of different things, ten different It makes it a montage.
It makes it a montage. If your story is good. Now,
if your story is good, and this is this is
where story does everything. If your story is good, your
actors are good, yes, your music can come in there
and you can support it, you know. And if you
do that for your first couple of films, that's great.
But then hire a composer for your for your next film.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
You know, I agree.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But what I'm going to say is those stock music
sites are really good to prevent bits. Yeah, because now
your licensing stuff that you're not going to fall in
love with, it's just fillers, so you can get sort
of feel for.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
I think there are some of these stock places you
can get for like like a thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Oh, let's okay, let's depending on what you're like. Sometimes
the editor needs sort of a soundtrack to help, especially
you're adding a montage or something like that. You need
to lay down a sort of a feel. It's not
going to be the final music if you're going to
use a composer, obviously, but at least it gives sort
of a feel for the you know, the emotion and
the patient and all that kind of stuff, and so
to avoid tempite is that's a.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Good way to do it.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
That's what I found. They're very inexpensive, and you can
and you know, you can license them just for you know,
the use of not even release. I mean, everything has
a different price. You're going to release theatrically, you're gonna
pay this much. You can release to festivals, this much,
you're gonna you know, do streaming. Everything is a price,
and it's all about music licensing, which we don't have
enough time to talk about. And you know, I wanted
(29:39):
to talk about composition, but I got to say I
use composers all the time now because I agree with
you that once you get a taste of that and
you feel that, you know the consistency and it's the
complete picture. But I also got to say that music
is a real art. It is a super art, and
when you find somebody who does a great job, you
(30:00):
really need to appreciate it, because not everybody as artistic
as everybody else.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Sure, so I got to say, you did a great job.
I love the music. You know, we went to that
we had the you know, the privilege of being at
that premier screening together, right, which was quite an event.
We had this huge screening, eight hundred people in this
gorgeous theater, and it's really isn't it a pleasure to
see people react and enjoy?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Kind of Yeah, that's what makes it. That's what makes
it all worthwhile.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It's like, it's just like, Okay, if the music's there,
it cuts on the picture.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
It brings everything to life. It's a yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
But you see people reacting, and you know they're reacting
to the music in certain places because it's there's nothing
else going on. You see their face and you hear
the soundtrack come in, and you know if they're crying,
it's because the music is making.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Them right exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
And so that's why I think it's so darn important
to help with storytelling. And I just think you did
a great job and I really appreciate you taking the
time to come onto the show.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Well, good luck with it.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
I'm very excited what the many films that you will
make today and tomorrow and in the future.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
That was that third thing, like, now we got the connection,
let's see what we're gonna get.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah, there we got that's the third thing. Yeah, right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
All right, James, thanks a lot, great to see you
all right. Thank you
You want to make a great indie film, one of
the most important components is the music. The music is
what captures the emotion and helps to tell the story
in a great way. Today, we're going to talk about music.
If you want to be a successful indie filmmaker, you
need to know a lot about not just the production
(00:20):
of movies, but the business. We are going to tell
you the truth and reality of what really happens in
the indie film business today. I'm really excited because we
have James Cavell, who is a music composer for movies,
indie films, and I had the pleasure of working with
(00:41):
him on one of my recent films called God Is Good.
I got to see James style. I think I drove
him crazy telling him all the things that we had
that I sort of envisioned with the music. But James
is a true artist, and he really captured the essence
of the movie and really elevated to another level by
creating an unbelievable music score. So we're going to talk
(01:03):
to James on how music can really change the nature
of a film. Hello, James, welcome to the program. It's
great to be here. I think thanks you for that introduction.
That's that's that's very kind of you. None of it's true,
but it's but I did my best. Yeah, you know,
but I gotta make it sound good for the for
the audience.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
That's right, you gotta sell, sell, sell.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
You actually did do your best. And you know what,
you are a professional because you're not the first composer
I've dealt with. I got to tell you that, I
I mean, I'm not a musician, and I really appreciate
good music, especially good score, because like I said in
the intro, it does really help elevate the telling of
the story. Music is what really captures the emotion and
(01:43):
passion of the characters and the scenes, and it can
change the whole nature of a scene, as you know.
So you've been doing this for a long time. So
let's just start sort of how'd you get into it? Like,
are you a musician by trade or what?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
How did you you know?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I grew up singing a church choir from age one
or two, and so I sang in choir and then
my first musical instruments was a trumpet because I thought
Herb Albert and the Tiawana brass and plane it sounded
like a cool thing. And then I taught myself guitar
in junior high cause that's.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
How you get girls.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And then I took pane lessons in high school because
that's how you get girls also.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And no, your guitar is how you get girls.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, the guitar, I said, I guess pianos how you
get sophisticated girls. So so I was always writing songs
from very very early on, and I was just engaged
in the music community. There was nobody in my family
that was in the music business. The only instrument my
father could play was the radio. But he did expose
me to a lot of cool things, like, you know,
Dave Brewback and you know, all of those kind of
(02:40):
cool jazz people, not King Cole.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know, a lot of the audience probably doesn't know
these people, but I know them all.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Oh okay, I brew Back her, all of the calls,
the jazz greats I I I sort of grew up
listening to. But I also had listened to FM radio.
I went to sleep every night with the radio underneath
my pillows. So I was infused in pop music as well.
So I really I came to sort of life when
the Beatles came in or the Beatles were just slightly
(03:07):
older than me.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
But I love But.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Here's the thing. A lot of people love music, obviously,
and a lot of people play music and everything like that.
But to transition into becoming a composer, like in the
movie business, that's a whole other trend. Like when did
you realize that was going to happen and how did it?
How did you take your musical sort of love for
music and talent and transition to become a composer.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
So, yeah, I thought I was going to be. I
wanted to be Elton John, or at least the straight
version of Elton John, you know, at one point. And
so when I transferred to USC in my junior year
of college, because I decided that, like, okay, I really
like music, writing music, and I like music for films,
and I just liked writing music for anything.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Do they have a program there, music composition program?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, us see well now I got
my degree in quote legit music. But there were composers
that were that were teaching, like David Ratskin and people
like that. And of course the film school at USC
was was you know, the film school, So Lucas and
Spielberg had been there about ten or fifteen years before me,
and so the film school is really coming up, and
so I started scoring films at USC and that was
(04:10):
my first taste of like, okay, well hey, I like
doing this. So that's that's how I really got into
the film scoring business.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
And so over the course of whatever years you've been
doing it, how many movies do you think or series
or what I mean, where do you focus?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Is it movies?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Is it whatever's paying cash at the moment. That's why
I focus on That's always my favorite project.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Good.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
But I've worked with a London Symphony, I've written and
composed with London Symphony, and then I've written music for
TV shows. I have two seasons of Tom and Jerry
on HBO Max right now. So I do animation or
I'll do you know, disaster movies, or I really enjoyed
working on your movie which was which was a smaller
independent kind of film. And then I have music every
(04:53):
day on the Discovery Channel. Just have thousands of hours
of music on that channel.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Okay, So let's let's just talk about the indie film business,
all right. So you did score the music for this
faith based film that we had called God Is good.
And I remember I found you at a screening. We
were at the same screening a movie that you had
also scored, and I enjoyed it and I said, wow,
I gotta I went up to the producer of the
movie and I said, who's the guy who wrote the
music for this? And they said, who happens to be here?
(05:21):
And that was a coincidental meeting. Yeah, So let's just
talk about first of all, in terms of indie films.
I mean, often people don't have a budget to do
original music music said can. It can be a confusing
area for low budget indie filmmakers because everybody's envisions these
what we call these needle drop big songs, right, but
they can't afford them. It's too expensive to license that.
(05:43):
And often they say, I can't afford a composer too,
So I'm just gonna go on to these license sites,
so kind of speak to that. Does it make sense
to bring in a composer.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
It does make sense, And I'll tell you why it
makes sense because I talked to young composers all the
time and they're all hungry to do something. I literally
was just at a meeting of of seventy independent you know, composer, writer, editors,
producers last night, and I'm talking to a composer last
night and he says, how do I get sort of
the next place? And I said, just find somebody with
a camera that wants to do something and write something.
(06:13):
I could probably send you.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
You know ten.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Guys today that will do music for anything, and they
have other jobs, the other gigs they're doing at the
same time, but they're all hungry to do music for
low budget independent films just to kind of get there,
just to get something on screen.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, And in fact, these schools, the schools turn out
like USC has a composer's program where they just crank out,
and Berkeley also cranks out composers just like by the
hundreds every year.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So there's no shortage of talent.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
There's a lot of talent out there. You just have
to find them.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
But that's sort of new aspiring young ones. Yes, right,
you're not in that category. You are an experienced you know.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
That's why I charge hundreds of dollars instead of fair enough,
fair enough, Okay, right, how do you know when you
say meet a guy like me?
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So I come up to you at screening and I say, hi, Jim.
I'm Jeff Everett. I made a movie. I need music
for it. I tell you a little bit about it.
In this case, you actually heard about it.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, how do you know that?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Like we're going to be the right fit together. Obviously
we're going to negotiate the deal, right.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Sure, But you know, let me be honest with you.
Whenever I hire somebody new that I haven't worked with before,
just specifically on the artistic side, I mean, music is
an art. Yeah, Like if I'm hiring a writer, a director,
you know, some type of composer or something like that,
this is art. This is story. Even I don't know
for sure what I'm going to get now. I just
finished listening to one of your soundtracks, so I'm thinking,
(07:36):
this guy definitely has talent. But you know, I'm going
to take a chance on your side. How do you
know that I'm not a nutcase? Or you know, maybe
that's what you felt.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Well, you know, it's like getting a dance partner. You're
you're signing it for a dance partner, and so you
take the first couple of steps. When I engage in
any project, I'm looking for three things. I'm looking for art, cash,
or a future contact. Those are three things I'm looking for.
And if I see one of those three things in there,
I I'm glad to jump in on the dance. So
if there's art, cash, or some kind of future contact,
(08:08):
I really believe in this person. This person is going somewhere,
no matter how bad the film might be. I know
that they've got potential.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So I just you just sort of the third thing,
you know, yeah, contact, Yeah, but the first one art.
I mean, I'm not going to negotiate here with you,
and but you're gonna tell me that you find you
look at the movie and you say, hey, this is
really good. I want to be part of it. But
they have no cash. I mean, you're gonna need to
have cash. There's got to be got to make a living.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yes, I mean, but if I if I see that
someone that's got what I perceive is real talent and
they're starting from nothing, I might write something specifically for them,
or I might just give the music from my library
for something. But I'm gonna do everything that I can
for that that artist that I think like, this person
is going to go somewhere, and I will do something
for them, you.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Know, at at you know, a.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Reasonable price, reasonable price, discount of rate, you know. Yeah, yeah,
if there's if there's some money involved I or or
future you know, I'll I'll hold onto the publishing or
something like that or do something that that will you know,
give me something further down the road.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah. The audience is all thinking, okay, what did what
did I bring?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Was it art?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Cash or future medential?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
It was cash, folks, there was cash. Now you hit
all three of you hit all three of those things.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Well, I can say distribution is going to be a
big one because I'm so bent on distribution, So your
music hopefully will be seen heard by a lot of
people because I'm going to release the film properly. Yeah,
so that's a big one, you know which matters? Yeah,
definitely Art we don't have to talk about. That's an
opinion thing. But let's actually I do want to talk
about that for a second. So in some ways I
feel like I drove you a little crazy. I am
(09:38):
super part Look, I'm a director. Everybody who directs this
particular about their art, right, But I don't have a
trained dear like you do. I'm not, you know, you do.
I respect that you are way more experienced and talented
and have a year. But I said to you one day,
I said, I know who my audience is, and I
want to spoon feed my audience a certain way, and
(09:58):
I want you to kind of re quote the theme
over and over and over. And we didn't always agree
on that, right, I mean, now you are pro and
you're respectful of the fact that I you know, I'm
your client. Sure you're gonna satisfy me, but I respect
the fact that you didn't agree with me sometimes. And no,
we came to a happy medium. But how was that
like working with a director who can be maybe you know,
(10:20):
a little pushy, your onerus or whatever.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Well, I here's the thing. I'm dressing your child. You're
bringing your child to me, and you want me to
put clothes on your child. I'm dressing your child, and
my job is to fill in make your child look
as best as you want your.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Child to look.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Now, I'll suggest things. Okay, I think this child would
be better with a blue blazer or a pink dress.
And if you don't like that, and you're not happy
with that, when you walk out, and when you're done,
you're gonna think I'm never gonna work with that guy.
Again because he dressed my kid like a sob. So
that's my job. So I have to I have to
fill in. I have to make your vision because you're
(10:58):
the director what it needs to be. Now, I'm a composer,
and if I want my vision, I'll write concert. I'll
music write music a concert.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
You know, there is a happy medium because because you
did pretty a pretty good job of managing sort of
my expectations and saying, you know, Jeff, I understand you
want that blue blazer, but can I show you what
a green blazer is gonna look like? And maybe you
just haven't considered a green blazer. You did that with me, Yeah, right,
I mean I love this analogy by the way, right
so visual, you know, yeah, because I would never have
(11:27):
considered the green blazer, but you said, let me just
show you what that would look like, and you kind
of put a piece of you know, clip in or whatever, queue.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
And and and that's that's what collaboration really is. Yeah,
that's where we're collaborating and we're making something better than
than would have had just been with one of us.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
So collaboration is really the key here.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Being respectful is always You were always respectful to me.
But I'm also going to default. Eventually. I will push
and push and push until I realize, no, it's.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Not worth it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So I'm gonna get this far as far I'm gonna get.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, And you know, even John Williams says, you know,
if I get, if I get two good cues out
of a film, I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
He says that, Yeah. If John Williams has saved so
many movies, yeah right. I mean these directors should be
thankful if he gets if.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
He gets two good cues and them I think, like, why, well,
let's okay. If Johnny's happy with two, I'll be happy
with one.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I wasn't gonna go there. But for viewers who you know,
audience who don't know who John Williams is, what planet
do you live on? But you know we're talking Star Wars,
We're talking some of the greatest soundtracks of all time. Yeah,
movies sound right? I say, like that is a guy
whose soundtracks have elevated movies to a whole other level
and in a lot of cases save the movies. Yeah, yeah,
(12:39):
because the soundtrack is what people remember. Like, you know,
Rocky is a great movie, but I mean the theme
from Rocky I mean, Jaws is a good movie, but
like the Jaws theme, everybody knows it.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I mean Star Wars.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I love Star Wars, but it was innovative and crazy,
but the soundtrack is eligiously good.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah, music is a language with which we feel for
young filmmakers, I think this is the this is the
mistake they make. They start temp tracking their film with
like big things from like Dune or whatever it is,
you know, and this is this is going to be
a disaster. Okay, do not temp track your stuff with
a bunch of really big things and then expect you well.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
When you fall you fall in love with that.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, right, I call that tempitis.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
You get temp bitis and then you then you're you're
toast because you can't and then you also as a
film direct you get transfixed. Well, gee, it's just not
working for me the way that temp track worked, Well,
that's exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Right, correctly, So you better.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
So you've got to you need to release that and
and try to not put that in.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
It's a common error that everybody makes. It's so easy
to make it because it's so easy just to take
this big you know, needle drop song and stick it
in and see, oh, this sounds great, and then forget
that you can't use it exactly. I do like this tempitis.
That's that's a good name for it. Yeah right, okay,
so when you're doing like sound, all right, because we
agree that sound does create this emotional attach and like
(14:01):
I've often said that if I had to watch a
movie without picture or sound, I would choose without picture
because the music and the dialogue I think tell the story.
The music can often tell the story better than the
picture can because it's getting into somebody's head and telling
the emotion behind the scene.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, it's their imagination. So how do you capture that?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Like, I just feel like you have to be so
talented to understand what that emotion is and then capture
it in sound.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yes, right, okay, So I'm going to make an existential
metaphysical comment first and then I'll go into maybe the details.
But first off, because I believe as Stravinsky said. Stravinsky said,
I don't create anything. I just take what God has
done and I put it out there. I write music.
God is the creator and I make music. So for me,
I feel like the music is flowing through me. It's
(14:50):
not coming from me, but God is literally putting it
out there for through me.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Okay, can I just tell the audience. I mean you're
a faith based guy, so you're using that, Okay, so.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You actually believe? Yes, I truly believe that.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
And there's many of the great composers had I had
a deeply spiritual uh life, also, Stravinsky, Bach, Mozart, all
of these composers, they knew that this this creation of
music which is just you can't really it's so it's
in the fifth dimension, it's coming through.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
They're just the vehicle.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
They're just the vehicle. I am just a vehicle. Every
person in this industry feels like they're a poser. I
just happen to be a calm poser. Okay, So I'm
a composer.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
So I'm I.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Really use a lot of like great analogies in terms
of em I've just I've just maken it up as
I go.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
But film music also is a lot of craft. There's
inspiration and there's art, but there's craft also, And so
that craft is how do I stay out of the
way of the dialogue, How do I support the dialogue?
How do I work with the sound effects and the dialogue,
you know, and how.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Does that all work? So it's a lot of there's
a lot of craft that.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Goes in it, and being willing to erase and not
write every beat of everything that it goes on. If
it's Tom and Jerry, yes I'm hitting every beat at
every single second. But for a film like yours, an
independent film, I'm just trying to support the ideas, to
support the emotion and not get in the way.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Sometimes less is more.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Always Bernard Herman, who is you know, who is Alfred
Hitchcock's composer, said you know, can you put your finger
on what music does in a film? And he would say, no,
I can't put my finger on well what it does?
But does it do something? Absolutely? So it absolutely has
a purpose, it has a reason. But it's a mystical element.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I mean, I would say that music helps evoke the
emotion of people.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
That's what it does.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Yes, And because film is so intimate, because because the
camera is so close on a person, and you can
have a film score that sort of surrounds it. Now,
if you go to the theater and you're watching a play,
music and plays is very sparse, It usually is intrusive
and usually doesn't work. It works as play on and
play off in a drama. In a drama and a musical,
(16:59):
that's a different thing. But because you're so intimate, music
can envelop and surround the motion, the picture of the
story as it goes along.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, So, Jim, one of the greatest challenges I had
that I have in working with composers like you is
try to find the right adjectives or the right words
to describe what I'm looking for. And you said to me,
just talk the way like you're like you're having a
meal or something like that, and I will understand it,
because there's a whole language that musicians talk and the
(17:31):
adjectives they use, and that think you know, I'm using
the words like tempo and upbeat, downbeat, like happy, sad,
these kind of things because I'm trying to express what
I think the emotion or the track should sound like,
and I feel like I'm not expressing it well. I mean,
it must be tricky for you because.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
My job is to interpret that. My job is to
interpret that.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
And I appreciate what you how you approached it, because
that's what I want to I want to hear happy, sad, blue, pink,
yellow chartreuse. I want to hear colors. I want to
hear feelings. I don't want to hear Can you add
more vibrato to the violins? I don't want to hear that.
And and when I work with a director that has
just a little bit of knowledge of music, it's always
a disaster because they'll say, like, can't you bring in
(18:14):
a piccolo here or something like that, or let's just
say inane things, and so I just nod my head
and so, you know, I just sort of go along
with it.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
So talking in emotions and feelings is is what is
what My job is to take those and interpret those
in music. So that's that's what a good composer does.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So I'm learning something as a director on how to
kind of communicate with the composers.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, because when you when you work at actors, you
don't give I mean, the worst thing you can do
is actually give them line readings, you know, I mean
sometimes it's it's it's what's appropriate. But if you give
them lined readings, that kind of like cuts off the actor.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
The actor can't.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Then bring in their own what they're their feeling is
it is, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Like I would say, okay, it needs to be bigger,
more excitable, or something like that, as opposed to try
it this way. Yeah right, yeah, I mean I would
never attempt to tell you what instruments because I don't
even know what instruments. I mean, once in a while
I would say it sounds like there's too much hum
in the back or too much bass or something like that.
I mean, but I don't even know what instrument you're using.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Sometimes I work with directors that have very particular things
about Like I know, Jeffre Katzenberg doesn't like a piano
in a score if it's an outdoor scene, because Jeffrey
Katzenberg thinks that pianos are only indoor instruments.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
So now this is just nonsense, but that's what he does.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
And I've worked with other directors that, for some reason,
you know, they don't like harps, or they don't like it,
would they do, like they don't like the obo because
their mother was an obo player and their mother beat
them with the obo or something like that.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
You know, there's just all kinds.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Of there's people have certain little particular things that they
don't like, and so I'll find out what those things are,
and I take them out what I usually ask directors
in the beginning, I says, what were you listening to
on your iPod when you were writing this script? What
was that you were listening to? Because that will inform me.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
So you didn't ask me that.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
I didn't ask you, and I didn't script though, but
I do ask that a lot because I knew that,
Like when I Titanic, I said, you know what, I know,
James Cameron must have been listening to Enya when he
did that score.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And that's exactly what he was.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
And I knew that within the six verst sixteen bars
that James Horner had just picked up Enya and just
put Enya on the Titanic score. Really yeah, so and
but and again that's where it comes in to, like,
this is what I feel like the movie's about, and
that again helps to inform what the composer's gonna do.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Okay, there's something else you did which I learned from.
And you said to me that we need to use
live instrumentation like you're gonna do recordings. You're gonna bring
in violins and singers and all this kind of stuff,
because it's gonna give it a different texture in a
different feel, and I'm saying, like, do we really want
to spend money on that? You know, all these synthesizers.
(20:47):
We could do it properly with MIDI sounds and all
stuff that I don't even understand. Yeah, and you said, no, no, no, Jeff,
you don't understand. There's a difference. So what is that difference?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Well, depending on what your budget in your time is,
I always try to put at least a couple of
line instruments, whether it's just a guitar player a vocalist.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Uh So we're talking renting a studio and coming in
them recording it and you kind of writing.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
The exactly music and them playing.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Now, your project was was was bigger because I had,
you know, like I had like six violins doubled three times.
Then I had a solo violin and solo cello, some
guitars and that kind of stuff. But if you're doing
a small independent film, and this is what I say,
even a small independent film with its young composer, you know,
he's got a laptop and he's got a microphone. He
can stick that microphone in his bedroom, and a cello
(21:30):
player can come in and play cello parts, or or
a guitar player can play something and that will immediately
elevate your score.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Why explain why.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Well, because it's the difference between using an AI actor
and using a live actor.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
No can come, no, no, no, it's it's I mean
for you, for me and for me, I mean AI
is soon.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Going to be that good. Yeah, we're not there yet.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah yeah, but I think using a live musician it
just it just elevates it.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
It's it's the human factor. I can't.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I'm going to say it's the difference between heating soup
in a microwave or on a stovetop exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, yeah, Okay, the microwave soup will just get cool very.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Quickly, or it'll be burned at the edges or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Where yeah, you know, so they're there.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Anytime you can bring other humans into the process of
writing music, it's just going to make it better. In fact,
I think I think in many ways a piano score
for something that's that's just live, real piano through the
whole thing is maybe better than putting all this other
uh all this other synth kind of stuff into it.
Just look at the firm that's that's Dave Grusoon that's
(22:32):
a great score. That's ninety eight percent piano. But it's
the right piano, it's the right notes for the score,
and it's a live because.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You know a lot of fellow directors of low budget
and it's funny you just you know, you said, didn't
refer to our film as a low budget any film,
but it is a low budget yes, yeah, maybe not
a micro budget film. Yeah. You know you've worked on
other stuff much smaller. Yeah, And so we did actually
have enough budget to actually rent the studio and bring
the musicians in and do it properly all r. Yeah,
which I'm happy about. And I'm happy you push me
(23:00):
in that direction. Yeah, because I do feel like there's
a difference. But I remember we were sitting in the
mixing that day and we brought I brought up the
conversation of music kind of like wine, Like can somebody
actually tell the difference between an expensive wine and a
sort of a mid range wine? And you know, we
were bantering back and forth, but you're saying music is
(23:20):
like and by the way.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I do believe it. I do believe that after I.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Heard the real instrumentation. You know, you had prepared the
track and you had sent it to us as you know,
what do you call it MIDI?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, it's just a ye a MIDI track, MIDI tep track.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Okay, which is which is the same songs, the same scoring,
the same everything. But you did it on your keyboard. Yeah, well,
you know, with you play it in a violin comes
out or whatever. When when I heard the final one,
it was richer, it was bolder, it was oh yeah, yeah,
there was something to it. It's hard for me to
describe it, but.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
It's it's kind of an it factor. I don't know,
it's the human factor.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It's just uh, it's what moves the whole.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Thing up, you know, in just a again, it's it's
a it's a fifth dimensional sort of thing that happens.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yeah, Now do you find that on indie film? So
so music generally comes in in obviously post production. Yeah,
once in a while, somebody you know, is, like you say,
is inspired when they're writing or whatever and they have
songs in minds. But that's usually big budget stuff. In
low budget indie producing, you're usually doing this in post
production and a lot of people haven't tucked away any
money for it, which I would say is a gigantic
(24:26):
mistake in general in post production. You know, some people
don't even tuk away money to edit the movie. They
got to go find it. But music seems to be
like the afterthought with indie producers and directors. I mean,
we'd agree that's a huge mistake.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
That's a big mistake, yees, Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So what should they like, you know, just giving advice
to people who are planning their shoot and their indie film,
like how much should they be tucking away? Should be
a percentage of their budget? What should they be thinking
going into the production for the music?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Think about two? That's great, you know, but that all depends.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I mean, if you've got no money, you know, then
you just figure out, well, so what can I what
can I give? What can I what can I do?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Two percents less than I would have said. I would
have gone five percent, okay, but two percent is workable,
It's very workable. But the reality is.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
The reality is I mean, okay, listen, if you've got
if you're doing an independent ninety minute movie, I would
say the minimum you need to put a stuck away
for a composer and music would be like five thousand
dollars I'm just.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That's just also top my minimum minimum. Okay, that's a
minim minimum. Now, how about.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
People who say, I'm gonna get a needle drop in there,
I'm gonna get this one big song. Can you just
explain to people sort of the cost of that. I mean,
I could do it also, but I'd rather you explain it.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Well, you can do a needle drop, and needle drop is.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Meaning getting a big license, big you know, Taylor Swift
song in your movie and being able to afford it.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
You're not gonna get a Tailor Swift song in your movie.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
You're not gonna get just not get that's that's that's
a two hundred fift five hundred thousand dollars kind of
five hundred okay, yeah, five hundred uh and by an
indie band. There's a lot of indie bands out there
that again are just they'll give you music to put
in their film because it's exposure for them, and it's
and it's.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Just dispel the delusion of thinking you're gonna get, you know,
a big name artist.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
You're never gonna get a big name artists, you never
get a big band. You're gonna waste your time anything
that you hear on the radio, you're not gonna get.
But there's a lot of things on Spotify, and a
lot of artists out there that are doing things that
again will And there's music supervisors out here, at least
in LA, music supervisors that are working to get their
independent bands and that kind of stuff get music on
(26:36):
films or TV shows, and and they're they're doing it
at a cut rate, cut cut.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Right, they want the exposure. Yeah all right, So so
I just I meet so many director producers who are
delusional in thinking that they are going to get these
big songs. And like you say that, what was the
term you used about putting in temp temp You're gonna
bite us? Yeah, tempitus. Tempitus is a.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Bad thing to add virus.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Everybody makes that mistake and gets that virus once in
a while and they put in the big needle drop
and then they get in love, fall in love and
they can't can't get out of their heads. Yeah right, yeah,
So just I wanted to share something about music licensing
because it's super important. It's a very complicated area. A
lot of people don't understand it, but it's so darm
and important to get your music right, So there are
(27:18):
these sites where you can license you know, you're talking
about indie bands and all this kind of stuff. Who
are I agree, they're very anxious to get their music
because they want the exposure. But there's also these these
sites where you can license, you know, pre recorded music
where people artists put their their little jingles or tunes
up or that type of thing.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
What about those?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
And I know you're composure that you know, you're competing
with those basically, or maybe you have stuff up on
those sites.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Yeah, well I have music on that on a site
for a one production company that does everything for the
Discovery Channel, and you can you can use stock it's
just stock music. It's called stock music, and you can
use it and it will be just fine.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
But I hate it.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I hate it because it's just stop music and it
does you get ten different cues or fifteen different cues,
and they're all kind of different. They don't like, they
don't sound like they come out of the same place.
They're not coming out of the same mind, they're not
coming out of the same book. It's just like if
you had a book and you were illustrated your book
and it's used like stock, you know, pictures from a
(28:19):
bunch of different things, ten different It makes it a montage.
It makes it a montage. If your story is good. Now,
if your story is good, and this is this is
where story does everything. If your story is good, your
actors are good, yes, your music can come in there
and you can support it, you know. And if you
do that for your first couple of films, that's great.
But then hire a composer for your for your next film.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
You know, I agree.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But what I'm going to say is those stock music
sites are really good to prevent bits. Yeah, because now
your licensing stuff that you're not going to fall in
love with, it's just fillers, so you can get sort
of feel for.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
I think there are some of these stock places you
can get for like like a thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Oh, let's okay, let's depending on what you're like. Sometimes
the editor needs sort of a soundtrack to help, especially
you're adding a montage or something like that. You need
to lay down a sort of a feel. It's not
going to be the final music if you're going to
use a composer, obviously, but at least it gives sort
of a feel for the you know, the emotion and
the patient and all that kind of stuff, and so
to avoid tempite is that's a.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Good way to do it.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
That's what I found. They're very inexpensive, and you can
and you know, you can license them just for you know,
the use of not even release. I mean, everything has
a different price. You're going to release theatrically, you're gonna
pay this much. You can release to festivals, this much,
you're gonna you know, do streaming. Everything is a price,
and it's all about music licensing, which we don't have
enough time to talk about. And you know, I wanted
(29:39):
to talk about composition, but I got to say I
use composers all the time now because I agree with
you that once you get a taste of that and
you feel that, you know the consistency and it's the
complete picture. But I also got to say that music
is a real art. It is a super art, and
when you find somebody who does a great job, you
(30:00):
really need to appreciate it, because not everybody as artistic
as everybody else.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Sure, so I got to say, you did a great job.
I love the music. You know, we went to that
we had the you know, the privilege of being at
that premier screening together, right, which was quite an event.
We had this huge screening, eight hundred people in this
gorgeous theater, and it's really isn't it a pleasure to
see people react and enjoy?
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Kind of Yeah, that's what makes it. That's what makes
it all worthwhile.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It's like, it's just like, Okay, if the music's there,
it cuts on the picture.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
It brings everything to life. It's a yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
But you see people reacting, and you know they're reacting
to the music in certain places because it's there's nothing
else going on. You see their face and you hear
the soundtrack come in, and you know if they're crying,
it's because the music is making.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Them right exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
And so that's why I think it's so darn important
to help with storytelling. And I just think you did
a great job and I really appreciate you taking the
time to come onto the show.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Well, good luck with it.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
I'm very excited what the many films that you will
make today and tomorrow and in the future.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
That was that third thing, like, now we got the connection,
let's see what we're gonna get.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah, there we got that's the third thing. Yeah, right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
All right, James, thanks a lot, great to see you
all right. Thank you
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