August 27, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode of Indie Filmmaking: Truth and Reality, Jeff Deverett sits down with filmmaker Ryan Tillotson to discuss his journey producing and directing his own indie film. Ryan shares his creative process and the challenges he faced bringing his vision to life, while Jeff offers clear, practical insight into one of the most crucial—and often overlooked—aspects of filmmaking: the business side. From understanding the marketplace to navigating sales and distribution, Jeff provides valuable guidance that every indie filmmaker needs to hear before taking their project to the next stage.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On our previous episode, I talked about taking the business
of film more seriously and collaborating with other people who
have the skill set that complement your skill set as
a filmmaker. After that episode, our podcast manager said to me,
easier said than done. So I said, well, why don't
you come on and be a guest on the show
(00:20):
and let's have that conversation so that other filmmakers can
understand it. And that's what today's episode is all about.
If you want to be a successful indie filmmaker, you
need to know a lot about not just the production
of movies, but the business. We are going to tell
you the truth and reality of what really happens in
(00:41):
the indie film business. All right, welcome Ryan Tilliston. He
is a filmmaker and independent filmmaker and he's also the
manager of this podcast who I've been working with to
put together podcasts and he's very good at that. So
thank you Ryan for all your help and assistance in
(01:02):
doing that, Jeff. But also Ryan and I met a
few years ago because he found me on the internet,
as a lot of people do, because I do consulting
for independent filmmakers, you know, primarily about finance, and distribution
and about you know, other elements of filmmaking. Ryan booked
an appointment, called me up and said, Okay, Jeff, I'm
making this film and I have a bunch of questions
(01:23):
for you. So we decided that it would be a good
idea maybe to do a podcast together. Not this podcast,
we did another one a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Recorded like a two hour long conversation in San Diego.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Correct and you came, yeah, no, no, I have it too.
So it was basically I made a deal with Ryan.
I said, Okay, I'll answer all of your questions, but
I want it recorded professionally, And you came down with
your crew, your two guys, and and we set up
in that boardroom and had a really nice conversation about
indie filmmaking. I was doing the episode, the previous episode
(01:55):
about taking the business side of the film business more
seriously because it's called film business and Ryan is a filmmaker.
The episode ended and Ryan immediately said to me, you know,
easier said than done, Like, you know, how many people like,
what do you do? Why don't you just say? What
did you say to me?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
It's just not the type of people to, you know,
go to film school to obviously, to want to create
a business. So it's hard to and I think that
most of the filmmakers want to do it kind of
on their own, you know. They want to be like,
feel like they have the full creative control kind of thing,
be the a tour or whatever, and so it's it's hard.
(02:33):
I feel like it's I don't know, I don't know.
I feel like it's hard to convince that mindset to like, oh,
think like a business.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Okay, So listen to the words you just said. So
I like this conversation, Ryan, And I'm not going to
pick on you too much because I like you a
lot too. But you represent the independent filmmaker out there.
I mean, you are an independent filmmaker. You recently made
an indie film, So you're you. It's not like you're
talking theoretical. You've been there, you got your hands dirty.
You know about finance, you know about production. I mean
(02:59):
you haven't with the distribution side as much yet, but
that's coming, right. But you're the real deal, yeah, more
so than a lot of people who are still thinking
of making a film. So it's good to talk to
you because you've been there, done that, all right. Yeah,
Now look at the words you just said. You said
to be an outur you know, most people don't want
to give up. And I was going to add the
(03:19):
word I was hoping you would say control. Yeah, but
you said artistic artistic, right, I'm not saying that a
filmmaker should give up artistic control. If anything, I'm saying
they should keep it. The director should have a producer.
The filmmaker or whoever that might be. Maybe some people
were two hats producer director okay, should always keep creative control.
(03:42):
Why because they know how to make good art. You
want those people to have creative control totally.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
But what I'm saying, I guess, is that you're you're suggesting,
you know, adding more people, new people to the team,
Whereas don't you think that they want to learn how
to do it themselves?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
No, I do not think that. That is what I
called the disconnect. I've yet to find a filmmaker who's
interested and excited about the business side. When I say
a filmmaker, i'm talking a good artist. I've yet to
find a really passionate, good artist who is also super
passionate about the business side. Like show me somebody who
(04:20):
loves doing the creative who also loves doing spreadsheets. You're
not going to find that these are different paths, they're
different mindsets, they're totally different skill sets. Yea, that's the disconnect.
Have you met people like that who who just love
the producing side and the artistic side?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I definitely, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I would say, you know, not to jump on you.
I'd say it's a very very very short list, and
I would say I'm probably on that list.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I get just excited about doing a schedule of film
schedules I do about you know, shooting a scene and
doing a distribution contract. They're all interesting because of my background. Yeah,
all right, so kind of the artistic side is newer
to me because I didn't go to film school. You know,
went to law school, right, So I'm always being excited
about the business side, and the artistic side is fun
because it's creative and I like to be creative. But
(05:09):
it's very rare. Like most filmmakers that I have met,
I'm going to say ninety nine point nine percent of them, Yeah,
only want to be the artist. And I'm okay with that.
I'm not saying that's wrong. As a matter of fact,
I'm actually encouraging that. I'm encouraging artists to be good
artists and focus on it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, I mean I am the opposite. I went to
film school because I wanted to make film, and then
I have, in the process of okay, like let's finally
put together money and make a film, learned that I
need to know this other side, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
But do you enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Do you guys excited about going into an investor presentation
as you do about going onto set? I do.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
No, I don't at all.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I find the investor presentation far more challenging than making
the movie.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
What excites me about learning this is that I will
be able to continue doing it, that I could that
now I see a path to a whole new career
that I didn't really know existed. You know. Before I
was just like hope to make something good and hope
something happens. And now it's like, oh, I could see
how to actually get this out on my own.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Now you see the steps that have to be taken
in order for you to get to from point A
to point.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
B, which is all missed in film school, you know,
or at least in my film school.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Most film schools. Yeah, I haven't seen a film school
yet that teaches that path yet, and I wish they did. Okay,
but let me ask you something. If you and I
were becoming friendly here, you know, and it's a good relationship,
and I see that you are super creative and very artistic. Yeah,
what if I said to you, Hey, Ran, I got
an idea. You focus on the art. You make the
great movies. You focus on directing and being on set
(06:48):
and just making that great product. Let me take care
of the rest. Let me take care of the finance,
the distribution, all the business stuff, because we need you
to focus on the art. Yeah, what would you say, Sorry,
I want to do everything.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
No. I would be pretty relieved that there's someone willing
to help me, but I would be concerned, like, okay,
what is our split.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
It's a fair deal. Maybe fifty to fifty. It's a
fifty to fifty split, all right, all right, we're going
to become what we call a team. All Right. You're
going to do what you do really well, and you're
gonna get to focus on it, and then I'm gonna
do what I do really well, and I get to
focus on it. And now both of us aren't spread
too thin.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, we'd be a good team.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Wouldn't that make sense?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
No, it'd be great. It'd be great. But do you
think that everyone would be into that split? Like I
do understand, we get hung up on the deal. What
if I say to you, you take ninety percent, I'll
take ten percent. Would that make you feel better?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I mean, it's not about the deal. I'm saying. If
the pie is big enough, who cares like this?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Totally? Totally?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Let's just get a big pie. Let's figure out how
to make the pie bigger. Okay, don't worry about how
to split this little, tiny pie. Let's figure out how
to make this pie this big and then the splits
are all gonna work out.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Fine. Yeah, Yeah, how big of a movie were making?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
How big do you want to make? You want to
make a big movie. Let's let's have a strategy. Okay,
we're gonna start small, We're gonna grow, We're gonna build audience.
We're gonna do this. This is a strategy. What I'm
saying to you is, wouldn't it be a luxury to
just be able to focus on the art huge? Yeah,
and know that somebody is covering you, and and you
trust them and their skill set totally compliment your skill
(08:25):
set in terms of doing the business. And they don't
even want to do the art. Okay, Like they if
you said to them, hey, why don't you come on
and direct? Not necessarily me, all right, but some other
business major, right, they said, what you're crazy? First of all,
I don't know how to do it. Secondly, even if
I didn't know how to do it, I don't want
to do it. I like doing business proposals. I like
doing investor presentations. I like doing distribution contracts. I don't
(08:47):
want to direct a movie. It's not it's not in
I want you to do the directing.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Like so okay, I mean so many thoughts going through
my head right now, but like.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
But you represent the new film, heare? You need to
share this with the audience.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
So we just shot our movie and we're currently editing it,
and I want to be working on the next one already,
you know, and where we've got a bunch of different
scripts that we're looking at. And the plan was always
that I were a team of three all went to
film school together.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Could I just interrupt? Are you three filmmakers?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So, like director cinematographer, actor. I don't know, like, are
they all artists or any of them business people? You
said you went to film.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
School the only one. And I'm only become a business person.
I mean when I started my business in twenty seventeen,
twenty eighteen, and I've you know, learned a lot about
business and things like that. But they they are not
They're artists there they're yeah, they're both are They both
write together and they both directed this this feature that
(09:46):
we we made. The plan was that I would get
to direct the next one. But they told me that
they don't think that they can produce, and I'm like,
you have to. I'll show you.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
I would add one other opponent, so they don't think
that you said, they don't think that they can use
what I would say. They don't want to.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Produce, no, I know, and that makes me And if
they could, they don't want to.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
They don't want to because artists don't want to do
that stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
But if we want to have a successful company and
be able to do this multiple times a year, like
I have a vision where we're making multiple films a
year under this company.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
So what if I said to you, I can connect
you with like because I know the business school students,
I don't, but I'm hypothetically I can connect you with
like three really really sharp finance marketing people who could
do all those functions for you, and then you guys
can have a little collaboration this little team. You'll work
out a fair deal, they'll take care of all that stuff,
(10:44):
and then the three of you can be artists.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, I mean that sounds great right now. The first
thing that goes through my brain is like, Okay, that
requires to have to pay somebody, which is something that
we're not, you know, not doing the three of us.
The three of us are getting paid.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Why am I shay I'm looking at the camera shaking
my head? Why am I shaking my head? You are
thinking and talking just like artists do. Can you please
get over that?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Because guess what they're thinking. They're thinking that we're gonna
do all the business stuff and we're gonna have to
pay these artists to sit there in some dark room
and right stuff and do all and create and talk.
They're thinking the same thing. Everybody's actually aligned, everybody's on
the same page.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Don't think you're hiring these people. You're not hiring them.
They're entrepreneurs. They want the same opportunity you do. They
all want to be in business. Think of it. You
are a group of people who want to be in
a successful business. You all decide collectively that that business
is going to be the business of phil You're going
to be making good entertainment, all right, just TV shows
(11:48):
and films, all right. So you're all in it together.
You're all gonna work equally hard, and you're gonna all
equally reap the benefits if there are the rewards, all right,
So look at it that way. You're not hiring them.
They're not working for you. They're your partners. This is
a collaboration. It's equal.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I mean, that sounds great.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Can you think of it that way?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I'll try it, Okay. It's just I feel like it's
been so hard to get anything made, and just to
I mean, I don't mean every step of the way,
Like in the process of making it's like negotiating different prices.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Because of the way that deals. Like look at if
you said to me, you know, and the audience is
getting to know me a little bit better, right, and
I can't I don't know how well you know me.
But if you said to me, hey, Jeff, can you
help me make a film? All right? Like, can you
do the producing? You be the producer, you do all
the business stuff. The first thing that would come to
mind in my mind is I'd rather hire you just
(12:44):
to direct and I own the film. I'm not interested
in you owning the film. I want to own the
film because I'm very entrepreneurial. And if to me, the
heavy lifting is what I'm going to do, what you're
going to do is the easy stuff. A million people
I can hire to do your job. That's the way
I think. As a producer. Now you're thinking the exact opposite.
You're thinking, hey, I'm the filmmaker, I'm doing the heavy lifting.
(13:05):
This guy's the producer. Why should he share in the
profits or be a partner with me? I'd rather pay him.
I'm thinking the same thing. We're just on opposite sides
of the equation here. So then we say, Okay, I
want to own it. No, you say I want to
own it. So how but we equally own it. We
jointly own it, and we trust each other, and we
both put in the same amount of effort and hard work,
and hopefully we can collaborate and make something come of it.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I mean that sounds great, and maybe that's possible. It's hard.
You know, these three people are these two other people.
I'm one of the three that I'm working with. We've
known each other since two thousand and eight, I know.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
But you all went to film school together. Did any
of you walk across campus to the business school?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Never?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
No, of course you did it because you only collaborated
with each other artists collaborating with artists. None of you
even have the skill set or desire to do the
other stuff.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Okay, so what's the strategy to find these people? Have
to have this trusting rapport before you can.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Just let's do. The metaphorical strategy is leave the film
school for a minute, walk across campus to the business school.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I mean, I do like that network.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
With people who have a skill set that you don't have,
that you need. That's the metaphorical concept. Okay. Now, when
you're on a student in film school, you can physically
actually do that, and I tell my students to do that.
Like there is the film schools here, the business schools here.
It's a two hundred yard walk, walk across the courtyard
(14:33):
and walk in and introduce yourself. Go to a professor,
introduce yourself, Go to the cafeteria wherever these marketing students
hang out. Just network a little bit, the way you
do in the film school. Okay, once you leave film school,
that environment of the university is now you got to
go network. I mean, if you needed a marketing person,
how would you find one?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I mean I probably do a job post.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I'm not talking about hiring. Okay, if you need somebody
to do some marketing services for you, all right. You
want to mark at your business, all right. You want
to go out to the world and you want to
do beyond what you do for yourself. You want to
do it on a sort of different, bigger scale. Maybe,
So you're going to find a marketing company. You're going
to Google marketing. There's a million of them within two
(15:13):
miles of where we're sitting right here in Hollywood, right,
You're going to interview them. So you say, how do
I do it? The same way you make friendships, the
same way you make business relationships. You go out first,
you find people who represent themselves doing that function, and
then you go and you meet them, You talk to them,
you interview them. It takes a while. Like any relationship,
(15:33):
to build a rapport, to trust somebody, it's trial and error.
Some people work out, some don't. It's like any business relationship.
How did you find your friends who you you know
in film school, you didn't really know them. You've met
them for the first time. You made a few films together,
you built a raport together. Yeah, now, ironically, you know,
and I've met these guys. Right, they're nice guys, but
(15:54):
kind of pisses me off. And I'm not even in
the situation that you need to do all the heavy lifting,
the producing and they're willing to do it. How is
that fair? You need to find some.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
New friends, right, Yeah? They there there. I told him
I will teach them everything I learned, but they don't
want to learn it. I mean, that is what it
feels like.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
But they're not programmed.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
But they also want to make more movies and this
is the way we can do it with the cost
and how we.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Have a mental aversion to doing that because they are
too focus on film. And I'm saying that's a good thing.
It's a good thing that filmmakers who are artists focus
on the art. Do it, focus on the art, don't
become a business person. I'm saying to you, find a
business person who does what you don't want to do. Yeah, Okay,
(16:41):
now you're you're still haven't gotten past that.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Well, I guess it's it's not because.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
You haven't found anybody, because you haven't really gone looking
in the right.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
I did have a meeting with another producer that someone
introduced me to last week.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, the person who probably went to film school, who
actually wants to make films and direct them.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
No, he has. He's made nine movies and he's only produced.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
When you say produced, what does that mean. Did he
raise the money?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, he raised the money.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Okay, did he do the distribute arrange the distribution?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah? Perfect? He should come with this podcast. Honestly, he's
about to make his biggest budget a nine million dollars film,
about to make his biggest budget movie. He I could
see being someone he's like. I talked to him about
the next movie. He's like, let me know if you
need any help. Like that seems like a resource that like,
I mean, that's what I'm talking about I need to use.
That's perfect.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
So you've already met somebody. I met somebody, So why
not tap into that and and develop that relationship.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I might. I know, I've been very I've been thinking
about it a lot because I want to direct this
next movie.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
That that's I mean, it's a perfect fit for what
you're talking about. Yeah, somebody who understands the business, has
a proven track record in it and enjoys doing that
kind of stuff and is good at it allows you
freeze you up to do the stuff that you really
want to do. And you seems like you already trust him.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well I've I only met him once.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Okay, you met him once. You he's got a good
track yea, so far it's pretty good on paper. Yeah yeah,
now is you know, is the chemistry gonna be good?
You're gonna like him? You know that kind of stuff
is relationship building?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah yeah, yeah, So that takes time.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That's what I'm talking about though. Okay, okay, Now how'd
you meet him?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Through my wife's friend?
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Like a friend of a friend said hey, you should
meet this person.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
That is literally it, and then we could connect it
on Instagram and then we met at a bar last week.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Okay, perfect. So sometimes that happens, says what we call
organic meeting a friend of a friend says this, and
or you meet somebody just you know, coincidentally in a
bar you start chatting, or an airplane or something like that. Okay,
now let's say that that didn't happen. Is there other
ways that you could go? And by the way, you
don't even have a relationship with him, he might say,
thanks a lot, I'm not interested in working with you.
(18:44):
So now is it over because you didn't organically meet somebody?
Could you actually go and put yourself out there and
actually find someone maybe?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I mean, yeah, I'm sure I could. I don't know
what I would do.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Well, let me help you. Okay, that's the point of
this episode. So you said, what is easier said than done?
What exactly do you do? It's like, it's nice to
talk about things. This is why I want to do
this podcast because I don't want to just talk about
the theory. I want to talk about how you actually
put the theory into practice.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah all right.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So if I was in your position and I wanted
to be the artist and I want to find somebody
who I totally trust on the business side, all right,
First of all, I would not go looking in the
film circles. Not a chance. Okay, I'm not going to
film festivals. I'm not meeting other filmmakers. I'm not speaking
poorly of filmmakers, but generally they want to be the
artist too, all right, So you're right away their motivation
(19:36):
is wrong. I would go into the business circles, which
I'm gonna explain in a second. But the thing is,
you want to find somebody who doesn't want to do
what you do, which is make the movies. They're not
even interested in it, all right, Because as soon as
you find that, then it's over it, because then there's
a conflict. Right. You want to deal with people who
are excited about the film business, which which is most people,
(20:01):
all right, All these people who are in investment, banking
and real estate and marketing and all this. I'm convinced
that everybody dreams about the film business because it's the
sexiest of all the businesses. Yeah, so it's gonna be
no problem going into other industries high tech, medicine, anywhere
where people are very capable and smart, and finding people
(20:21):
who want to be in the film business.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
But don't you feel like that outside of the investing part,
that seems pretty regular standard to any business, right The
investing part that's.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
The hardest part.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I mean, no, of course you make it belittle it,
but I'm just saying, like, there are you have to
know a little bit about the rest of the business
to handle the producing side of a film. Hold on,
let's just here saying just reach out to anything. There
might be a.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Disconnect in the way we're using our terms. Okay, what
does a producer do when you say producing a film?
Is the producer the person who's putting the financing package together? Yes, okay,
can we change terms for a second. Yeah, this person
I'm talking about the business person. Do we want to
call them the producer? Is that what we want to
call them?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I mean I think they would be.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Okay, so they would be the producer. With this so
called producer, would they come on.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Set the size of the films that I'm making, I mean,
like I was the line producer on a movie.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Also, this is why I'm clarifying this. Okay, the person
I'm talking about is not going to be the line producer.
They're not going to be on set. They're not helping
make the film. There's going to be a separate line
together the money and the distribution, the business.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
The distribution stuff. Like, do you have to have some
kind of knowledge in the to handle the distribution knowledge
of what the film business?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
No, what's the film business? The film business is selling movies.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
They spent twenty six years in distribution with people who
go all around the world and sell, buy, and sell
films as a living. How many of those people do
you think I've ever been on a movie set? One percent? Maybe?
If that one out of one hundred maybe have actually
been on a movie set. None of them went to
film school.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
But if you go find some guy in the health
industry and tell and say, like, now, sell this movie,
how would they know even where to begin?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Because they're going to do what business people do. Well,
all right, They're going to say, who does this movie
actually cater to? Who's the core target audience? This is
the distribution of marketing plan that I was talking about. Okay,
who would really want to watch this? Like? Not everybody?
You know, filmmakers say everybody wants to watch this. A
good marketing and distribution person says, like, who's the core?
Who's the bullseye? Like, who do we want to get
(22:28):
this to. Let's cut a trailer that speaks to those people.
Let's figure out where they exist, like on social media
or organizations or associations or something. How do we get
to those people to get the message to them and
send them the exact right message and then send them
to where we want them to consume our product, whether
it be a streaming platform, our own website, or something
(22:48):
like that. That's called marketing, all right. A good marketing person,
it doesn't matter what product they're dealing with. A good
marketing person, like a marketing firm, can deal with any product.
They just have to ident find who the consumer for
that product is and how to connect with that consumer.
That's what marketing people do. The concept of marketing is
connecting with consumers and sending them a message. So I
(23:10):
don't care that they're in the business or not. I
care that they understand what the product you're selling is
and who the connection how to make the connection to
the right audience. Okay, so actually what you just described
is to me magic. Find somebody in like biotech or
health industry or something like that who knows how to
sell pharmaceuticals. In some ways, that's harder than selling a movie.
I mean that would be magic to me. Like you
(23:32):
can sell a generic drug to people. I mean, how
do you find exactly I mean, let's say it's diabetes,
you know, I mean huge, how do you find the diabetics?
You go and you do the research. Okay, how do
you find the horror fans? How do you find the
drama people who love this kind of you know theme?
This is what they do, well, this is their job,
(23:52):
this is what they focus on their skills, That's what
I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And then they just start reaching out to distribution.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
No no, oh no, no, no, you're jumping.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
You're jumping to all these.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Conclusions you making.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You're just well, no, this is the part that I've
not done yet. So I have literally no idea how
it's going to even go.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
So the point is we don't. We can do another
episode on actually how to do this, how it's done, okay,
But the point of this episode is to say that
you not only don't know how to do this, is
you don't even want to do this because you don't
you want to be a filmmaker. To do this properly
is going to take you away from filmmaking because you're
just not gonna have enough time to do both things
(24:32):
and do them well. All right, So if you want
to switch gears. You got to switch totally. Forget filmmaking.
But it's a thing of the past. You're now marketing.
You don't want to do that. It's not who you are,
it's not what you signed up for, it's not what
you went to school for. You want to do it
as a necessary evil so that you can do this
which you really want to do, which is filmmaking. All right,
(24:52):
So I'm saying to you, why play games with yourself
and dilute your time and everything. Just find somebody who
actually does want to do that, and who who actually
knows how to do it well. But you keep It's
like stretching the acid bad and we keep putting it back.
I say no, no, go here. Well, but if I
go there, then you know what about this? What about
that I'm saying no?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
No?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Start to think differently. This is the disconnect that I'm
talking about. You are the poster child for the disconnect.
You're thinking, okay, but you're a little further along because
most filmmakers say, I don't even want to do any
of that stuff. You're saying, okay, now, I appreciate it
has to get done, but I don't even want to
hire anybody to do it because I don't want to
pay them. And I'm saying, you're not paying them. They're
going to be your partner and they're going to do
(25:32):
something that you can't do, and they're going to do
it a heck of a lot better than you. But
you got to start thinking differently. This is what I'm saying.
When people say the film business was broken, it's not broken.
It was never working properly because of the way you're thinking.
You're thinking, I got to do this, this and this,
and I'm saying, no, you don't. You've got to have
a team, and you're not paying the team. I mean
(25:53):
you could if you want, if you had the money.
You're collaborating because you all have the same your interests
are all aligned.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
When you direct to your films, you're doing the producing right, yes,
but you're not doing the line producing. That would be insane.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
No, But I could. I know how to do it,
but I know it's no. But I wouldn't because I
don't want to spread myself too things. I don't want
to be running around doing that stuff when I run
a focus on making the movie. So but that's that's again.
Business structure so I choose what I want to do,
what I have the capacity to do well, and then
I hire out all the other jobs. But that's a
business structure. I come from this from the business side,
(26:32):
all right, so I'm trained to think business, business, business.
But I always had the passion for the art, all right,
So I backed into the art. Luckily I got the
chance to back into the art because I knew the business.
Most people start from the art side never really back
into the business side because it's too hard and they
don't like to do it. That's the disconnect. That's the disconnect, right.
(26:53):
So so all I'm saying is you got to start
retraining your mind to think that this is a collaboration
of two entrepreneurs who have the same aligned goals. It's
a partnership, that's what it is. It's not a hire
or somebody hires you that you hire.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I just got to find this person.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Well, you already told me about one. Maybe they're the
right person, maybe they're not. Because you know, chemistry is
important too. Okay, it feels to me like the resume
looks pretty good, they have the right skill set, Okay,
some proven track record, But to chemistry, you gotta like
them right because you're making a baby together. Yeah, you know,
you know, like a movie. But there's a lot that
goes into it. So I'm not saying it's going to
(27:31):
be easy to find all the right people. But if
you don't go looking, you're definitely not going to find them.
They're not going to come knocking on your door. That's
the important component. But you got to look in the
right places. Don't keep going in the same circles of
people who don't even have that skill set, which is
in the don't.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
My two partners how to do what I did.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
That is correct, because they're not interested and they're not
going to be good at it. You go and you
go find go into some I don't know, high tech
investment banking company, finds somebody who's really really good at
what they do, but super bored and wants to have
a little bit more fun and wants to do something entrepreneurial.
And you say, I am a darn good filmmaker, but
(28:11):
I am really lacking in my abilities to market and finance.
You do that, well, I can see that you've done
that well in your company, You've managed your client base well,
you're a good investor, whatever you have certain skills that
I don't have. You talk a certain way, do you
think a certain way. You do spreadsheets differently than you do.
(28:31):
Everything you do is different than what I do. And
we would be a really good team and we can
make a ton of money together by collaborating as partners.
You focus on what you do well. I'll focus on
what why do well and will be successful together. That's
the secret. And the disconnect is that filmmakers don't do that.
Most filmmakers never do the business part period. So they
(28:53):
fail miserably because not because they're not good filmmakers, because
they don't understand it's a business.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And the ones who do understand it's a business think
that they can actually do the business, and they can't
because they don't have the skills and they don't like
to do it and they're spread too thin. And that's
where you fall. You fall into that category. The second
category of somebody who at least appreciates what has to
get done, doesn't really want to do it. Okay, you
kid yourself, You play games with yourself saying, oh, I'm
(29:20):
going to do it. You don't really want to do it,
but you haven't found anybody else who could do it,
because you've gone looking in the wrong places. You've just
looked in the film circles. People say, I'll go to
a festival and I'll try to find a business person.
Business people don't go to festivals. Filmmakers go to festivals. Yeah,
go to an investment banking conference.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I do not want to go to investigate.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
But you know what, you start throwing around that you're
a filmmaker and you're looking for some.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Collaboration if I've had a success rate, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
No, And then you say, I have this vision, I've
got these great scripts. I understand filmmaking, I understand entertainment audiences,
but I need your skill set. And are you bored?
You're really good at what you do, but you want
to break away. You want to be an entreprene or.
You want to take a shot, and you love the
film business because it's super sexy, but you're not a filmmaker.
That's the fit. And I know you think, oh, that's impossible,
that's crazy, But it's not.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
No, I don't think it's impossible. No, it's it's very possible.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I say, A good chunk of my circle of friends
are basically in the real estate business, all right, some
form of real estate. They're either builders, developers, you.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Know, you've got them involved in film, I got them.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
They're all investors, okay, but none of them produce, okay.
But there are some young people, you know, they're kids
who are totally enamored with the film business, would love
to do it, but their parents have kind of trained
them to go into real estate because they've been successful
in real estate. Right, So it's a little safeer, a
little bit more tried and true type of thing. But
what they love the opportunity, Like you know, twenty eight,
(30:45):
twenty nine years old, five years out of college or whatever,
really savvy in what you do, probably have an MBA
really no numbers, really no you know, underwriting a real
estate deal, this kind of stuff. These are good, sharp
kids who really are skilled, would love the opportunity. That
would it be a big risk, of course it would be,
But all entrepreneurial ventures are big risks. They don't need
(31:07):
to know how films get made. They just need to
know that a good film hopefully can connect with an
audience the way a real estate deal can connect with tenants,
you know, building a building. It's the same connection in
a different environment. It breaks my heart that all of
my students in the various film schools that I teach in,
which are big film schools UCLA, San Dio State, Okay,
(31:30):
I'm the only one who teaches the business stuff. Most
film schools don't teach it at all. But guess what.
Guess what I say this, And you know it breaks
my heart to say what I'm about to say, but
it's the truth. They don't really take interest in what
I teach. They're not really interested. They take it because
they need to take it, because it's a mandatory course,
all right. They're not really interested in understanding how distribution
(31:51):
deals which.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Sold to me because it's like, if you want to
actually get something made on your own, you know that.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
But they don't. They didn't sign up for film school
to learn how to negotiate a distribution deal. They signed
up to learn how to use a camera, how to direct,
how to write. They signed up for the artistic components.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
And I get it ten years later after they graduate
and they still don't have a job in the film business.
They're gonna wish.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
The find took that class. But that's ten years too
that's ten years too late. That's ten years too late.
What I'm saying is and the film schools aren't going
to ever change. They're teaching the art of filmmaking. That's
what they signed up for. So often I say to
the administration, I said, like, maybe my courses would be
better taught in the business school. Then I could teach,
you know, students who are interested in finance how to
(32:34):
actually do tax credits and financial structures and everything to
put a film together, because it would.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Be fun to see business majors excited about producing films
like that would be cool.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
That would be unbelievable. Now, think about that if I
said to you, Hey, by the way, Ryan, you're a
great filmmaker. I teach in the business school, all right,
Santio State, and I teach business students, finance and marketing
majors how to specialize in films.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I want to come to your classes. I'm going to network.
You want to come to every.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Networking event and you want to meet people, and you
want to find somebody who is going to be your
right hand person. That's the key. Yeah, okay, So that's
the disconnect. The disconnect is that kind of stuff is
being taught in the film schools. So I'm trying to
change that, not necessarily with those schools. I'm trying to
change it as doing podcasts, doing this kind of stuff
(33:23):
to explain. And every once in a while somebody comes
out of the woodwork and says to me, and it's
not film people who do it. It's non film people
say to me, Hey, I've always been interested in the
film business because it's sexy, right and appealing.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
So you're finding these people.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I find them all the time because I'm out there,
you know, talking business of film. And by the way,
I call it the business of film, you know, and
I often say the film business, but it's in classes
I introduce it as the business of film because I
want to put the word business before film in my classes.
I want them to say the business of film as
opposed to the film business, because the word film will
(34:01):
always come before business, and I want to prioritize the business. Now,
I recognize that I'm barking up a tree, the wrong tree,
because they're not there for that. They're there for the
film part. So I know that I know that, and
I ease off, and I don't go as hard at
them as I'm going at you. And I you know,
I say, it's like, it's a shame because if you
knew what I knew exactly what you just said a
(34:23):
minute ago, like ten years out, I wish I would
have paid more attention in this guy's class. But they
don't because it takes ten years to figure that out.
You know. Luckily at UCLA teaching the extension program and
a lot of people come back, it's you know, continuing it,
and they say, Okay, I'm ten years out now I
need to learn this stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I think if the course existed, or maybe it didn't,
you know, I was saying, I feel like I would
take the class, but maybe, but I could be completely wrong.
You know, I have no idea, but I teach it.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
I teach it down the street at UCLA, and you're
not in the class. I didn't see you signed up
for it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Well, no, no, I meant when I was in Oh
oh no, No, you mean you don't think I would
have known? No, no, No, that's probably right.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
You wouldn't. You wouldn't because you're not mentally at that
point in your life. Your mindset is I need to
learn the art and the craft of filmmaking, not the
business side. You just don't appreciate. I didn't appreciate it. Like,
as I said, I got lucky because my dad said
to me, you should go get a business degree. And
I'm thinking, like, does that makes sense that I want
to be a filmmaker. Why would I not go to
(35:20):
film school?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, I mean you were lucky to get that advice, though.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I was super lucky to get that advice, you know.
And I tell the story all the time, and I
thank my dad a lot. I mean Dad's not live anymore,
but I mean I thanked him a lot. It's like
you set me down the right track. And I had
no clue about that. I mean, it was completely illogical
at the time for me that I would go and
get a law degree wanting to be a filmmaker. But
(35:46):
then it all connected, like you said, ten years down
the road, then you see how it all connects. So
that's why I call it the great disconnect, because you
can't make that connection at that point. So I'm just
trying to make the connection. I'm artificially saying here's the connection.
You're not gonna know it for ten years, but here's
the connection. Now. There's not a chance if I would
(36:06):
have said to you ten years ago, like when you're
going to film school, don't go to film school, go
to business school. You would have said, there's not a
chance I'm going to film school.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
That's correct, that part wouldn't have happened. But the course
in film school, I think, I may, you know.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
But it's one course and you wouldn't be And listen,
half the students don't even come to the course. They
watch recorded lectures and stuff like that. It's not interesting material.
Like if I know, I know, I'm not even gonna
say I'm guessing. I know how important this stuff is,
Like I know from experience how important this is. This
is the game changer for them. Yeah, but they don't know.
So I know that they don't know, and I'm not
(36:44):
gonna force feed it. I'm gonna present it. Hopefully some
of them will, you know, digest some of it. Yeah,
most won't. But it's okay. But at some point, at
some point, I'm gonna have to start teaching in the
business school.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
I mean, I think that'd be so great.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah, because these these are students who would eat up
the idea of learning about finance and distribution.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Then the film students would know to where to go.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Correct Then they could take a course out of you know,
because so you're allowed to do like cross divisional courses
once you know a couple of electives. So I do
get quite a few business school students in my Business
Aspects class. Oh good, which is good, but you know
they are one course out of the because they're you're
curious about the film business.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, so interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Anyways, just to wrap this up, that is the disconnect Ryan. You.
I love the fact that you are who you are
because you represent who everybody is out there, all the filmmakers.
I mean, you're sort of a little more progressed because
you're ten years out or whatever. I don't know exactly
your exact age, but you are out there. You've just
made a feature. You know what it is to produce,
(37:50):
you know what it is to raise money, you know
what it is to do all the business functions, not
all of them, because you haven't done distribution yet. So
that's when we'll have a really good conversation. Yeah all right,
but at least you've tried it. But you've also admitted
to me that you would prefer not to do it.
You'd rather do the directing. And you want your buddies
now to do the producing, and you know darn well
they're not going to do it. So there's the disconnect.
(38:12):
They're just not going to do it because they don't
want to do it, and they wouldn't even be good
at it. And they're good guys. I've met them. They're
good guys.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
They're good guys.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
They're good, honest, hard working guys. They're just not interested
in that right and they probably don't have the skill
set for it. That doesn't make them great filmmakers. It
just makes them bad business people. Not bad, but they're
not going to do what needs to get done. So
you need you need somebody on your team. You need
somebody on your side. If you can get the guy
you just told me about, that would be great, and
(38:39):
if not, you need to go shopping around. I mean,
I'm not saying you get a student, but get somebody
who's ten years out in business, who really savvy on them.
I would say, go for the marketing side, look at
marketing firms, look at people in marketing departments of companies
that you respect. I would say, try to go mid
range or smaller entrepreneurial stuff because the big companies they're
(39:00):
you know, in a big company just one tiny cog
in a big wheel. So you want somebody who's a
little more entrepreneurial, gotten their hands dirty or a little
bit and a lot of different things could manage an
entrepreneurial environment. We have to do everything, as you know,
you've got to do a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Okay, well you heard it here. If you're that person,
email Jeff.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Okay. On that note, I always this is a great
episode because Ryan represents you like the filmmakers and this
discussion we had, probably you're going to rejig in your
mind many many times over. So when you do that,
if you do have questions or you want, you know,
to express something. I love the input. Please email me
(39:40):
at Jdeverett at Devrettmedia dot com and I will address
as many as I can and from wherever you're watching
Push Subscribe
On our previous episode, I talked about taking the business
of film more seriously and collaborating with other people who
have the skill set that complement your skill set as
a filmmaker. After that episode, our podcast manager said to me,
easier said than done. So I said, well, why don't
you come on and be a guest on the show
(00:20):
and let's have that conversation so that other filmmakers can
understand it. And that's what today's episode is all about.
If you want to be a successful indie filmmaker, you
need to know a lot about not just the production
of movies, but the business. We are going to tell
you the truth and reality of what really happens in
(00:41):
the indie film business. All right, welcome Ryan Tilliston. He
is a filmmaker and independent filmmaker and he's also the
manager of this podcast who I've been working with to
put together podcasts and he's very good at that. So
thank you Ryan for all your help and assistance in
(01:02):
doing that, Jeff. But also Ryan and I met a
few years ago because he found me on the internet,
as a lot of people do, because I do consulting
for independent filmmakers, you know, primarily about finance, and distribution
and about you know, other elements of filmmaking. Ryan booked
an appointment, called me up and said, Okay, Jeff, I'm
making this film and I have a bunch of questions
(01:23):
for you. So we decided that it would be a good
idea maybe to do a podcast together. Not this podcast,
we did another one a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Recorded like a two hour long conversation in San Diego.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Correct and you came, yeah, no, no, I have it too.
So it was basically I made a deal with Ryan.
I said, Okay, I'll answer all of your questions, but
I want it recorded professionally, And you came down with
your crew, your two guys, and and we set up
in that boardroom and had a really nice conversation about
indie filmmaking. I was doing the episode, the previous episode
(01:55):
about taking the business side of the film business more
seriously because it's called film business and Ryan is a filmmaker.
The episode ended and Ryan immediately said to me, you know,
easier said than done, Like, you know, how many people like,
what do you do? Why don't you just say? What
did you say to me?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
It's just not the type of people to, you know,
go to film school to obviously, to want to create
a business. So it's hard to and I think that
most of the filmmakers want to do it kind of
on their own, you know. They want to be like,
feel like they have the full creative control kind of thing,
be the a tour or whatever, and so it's it's hard.
(02:33):
I feel like it's I don't know, I don't know.
I feel like it's hard to convince that mindset to like, oh,
think like a business.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Okay, So listen to the words you just said. So
I like this conversation, Ryan, And I'm not going to
pick on you too much because I like you a
lot too. But you represent the independent filmmaker out there.
I mean, you are an independent filmmaker. You recently made
an indie film, So you're you. It's not like you're
talking theoretical. You've been there, you got your hands dirty.
You know about finance, you know about production. I mean
(02:59):
you haven't with the distribution side as much yet, but
that's coming, right. But you're the real deal, yeah, more
so than a lot of people who are still thinking
of making a film. So it's good to talk to
you because you've been there, done that, all right. Yeah,
Now look at the words you just said. You said
to be an outur you know, most people don't want
to give up. And I was going to add the
(03:19):
word I was hoping you would say control. Yeah, but
you said artistic artistic, right, I'm not saying that a
filmmaker should give up artistic control. If anything, I'm saying
they should keep it. The director should have a producer.
The filmmaker or whoever that might be. Maybe some people
were two hats producer director okay, should always keep creative control.
(03:42):
Why because they know how to make good art. You
want those people to have creative control totally.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
But what I'm saying, I guess, is that you're you're suggesting,
you know, adding more people, new people to the team,
Whereas don't you think that they want to learn how
to do it themselves?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
No, I do not think that. That is what I
called the disconnect. I've yet to find a filmmaker who's
interested and excited about the business side. When I say
a filmmaker, i'm talking a good artist. I've yet to
find a really passionate, good artist who is also super
passionate about the business side. Like show me somebody who
(04:20):
loves doing the creative who also loves doing spreadsheets. You're
not going to find that these are different paths, they're
different mindsets, they're totally different skill sets. Yea, that's the disconnect.
Have you met people like that who who just love
the producing side and the artistic side?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I definitely, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I would say, you know, not to jump on you.
I'd say it's a very very very short list, and
I would say I'm probably on that list.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I get just excited about doing a schedule of film
schedules I do about you know, shooting a scene and
doing a distribution contract. They're all interesting because of my background. Yeah,
all right, so kind of the artistic side is newer
to me because I didn't go to film school. You know,
went to law school, right, So I'm always being excited
about the business side, and the artistic side is fun
because it's creative and I like to be creative. But
(05:09):
it's very rare. Like most filmmakers that I have met,
I'm going to say ninety nine point nine percent of them, Yeah,
only want to be the artist. And I'm okay with that.
I'm not saying that's wrong. As a matter of fact,
I'm actually encouraging that. I'm encouraging artists to be good
artists and focus on it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, I mean I am the opposite. I went to
film school because I wanted to make film, and then
I have, in the process of okay, like let's finally
put together money and make a film, learned that I
need to know this other side, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
But do you enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Do you guys excited about going into an investor presentation
as you do about going onto set? I do.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
No, I don't at all.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I find the investor presentation far more challenging than making
the movie.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
What excites me about learning this is that I will
be able to continue doing it, that I could that
now I see a path to a whole new career
that I didn't really know existed. You know. Before I
was just like hope to make something good and hope
something happens. And now it's like, oh, I could see
how to actually get this out on my own.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Now you see the steps that have to be taken
in order for you to get to from point A
to point.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
B, which is all missed in film school, you know,
or at least in my film school.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Most film schools. Yeah, I haven't seen a film school
yet that teaches that path yet, and I wish they did. Okay,
but let me ask you something. If you and I
were becoming friendly here, you know, and it's a good relationship,
and I see that you are super creative and very artistic. Yeah,
what if I said to you, Hey, Ran, I got
an idea. You focus on the art. You make the
great movies. You focus on directing and being on set
(06:48):
and just making that great product. Let me take care
of the rest. Let me take care of the finance,
the distribution, all the business stuff, because we need you
to focus on the art. Yeah, what would you say, Sorry,
I want to do everything.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
No. I would be pretty relieved that there's someone willing
to help me, but I would be concerned, like, okay,
what is our split.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
It's a fair deal. Maybe fifty to fifty. It's a
fifty to fifty split, all right, all right, we're going
to become what we call a team. All Right. You're
going to do what you do really well, and you're
gonna get to focus on it, and then I'm gonna
do what I do really well, and I get to
focus on it. And now both of us aren't spread
too thin.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, we'd be a good team.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Wouldn't that make sense?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
No, it'd be great. It'd be great. But do you
think that everyone would be into that split? Like I
do understand, we get hung up on the deal. What
if I say to you, you take ninety percent, I'll
take ten percent. Would that make you feel better?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I mean, it's not about the deal. I'm saying. If
the pie is big enough, who cares like this?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Totally? Totally?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Let's just get a big pie. Let's figure out how
to make the pie bigger. Okay, don't worry about how
to split this little, tiny pie. Let's figure out how
to make this pie this big and then the splits
are all gonna work out.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Fine. Yeah, Yeah, how big of a movie were making?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
How big do you want to make? You want to
make a big movie. Let's let's have a strategy. Okay,
we're gonna start small, We're gonna grow, We're gonna build audience.
We're gonna do this. This is a strategy. What I'm
saying to you is, wouldn't it be a luxury to
just be able to focus on the art huge? Yeah,
and know that somebody is covering you, and and you
trust them and their skill set totally compliment your skill
(08:25):
set in terms of doing the business. And they don't
even want to do the art. Okay, Like they if
you said to them, hey, why don't you come on
and direct? Not necessarily me, all right, but some other
business major, right, they said, what you're crazy? First of all,
I don't know how to do it. Secondly, even if
I didn't know how to do it, I don't want
to do it. I like doing business proposals. I like
doing investor presentations. I like doing distribution contracts. I don't
(08:47):
want to direct a movie. It's not it's not in
I want you to do the directing.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Like so okay, I mean so many thoughts going through
my head right now, but like.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
But you represent the new film, heare? You need to
share this with the audience.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
So we just shot our movie and we're currently editing it,
and I want to be working on the next one already,
you know, and where we've got a bunch of different
scripts that we're looking at. And the plan was always
that I were a team of three all went to
film school together.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Could I just interrupt? Are you three filmmakers?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So, like director cinematographer, actor. I don't know, like, are
they all artists or any of them business people? You
said you went to film.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
School the only one. And I'm only become a business person.
I mean when I started my business in twenty seventeen,
twenty eighteen, and I've you know, learned a lot about
business and things like that. But they they are not
They're artists there they're yeah, they're both are They both
write together and they both directed this this feature that
(09:46):
we we made. The plan was that I would get
to direct the next one. But they told me that
they don't think that they can produce, and I'm like,
you have to. I'll show you.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
I would add one other opponent, so they don't think
that you said, they don't think that they can use
what I would say. They don't want to.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Produce, no, I know, and that makes me And if
they could, they don't want to.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
They don't want to because artists don't want to do
that stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
But if we want to have a successful company and
be able to do this multiple times a year, like
I have a vision where we're making multiple films a
year under this company.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
So what if I said to you, I can connect
you with like because I know the business school students,
I don't, but I'm hypothetically I can connect you with
like three really really sharp finance marketing people who could
do all those functions for you, and then you guys
can have a little collaboration this little team. You'll work
out a fair deal, they'll take care of all that stuff,
(10:44):
and then the three of you can be artists.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, I mean that sounds great right now. The first
thing that goes through my brain is like, Okay, that
requires to have to pay somebody, which is something that
we're not, you know, not doing the three of us.
The three of us are getting paid.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Why am I shay I'm looking at the camera shaking
my head? Why am I shaking my head? You are
thinking and talking just like artists do. Can you please
get over that?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Because guess what they're thinking. They're thinking that we're gonna
do all the business stuff and we're gonna have to
pay these artists to sit there in some dark room
and right stuff and do all and create and talk.
They're thinking the same thing. Everybody's actually aligned, everybody's on
the same page.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Don't think you're hiring these people. You're not hiring them.
They're entrepreneurs. They want the same opportunity you do. They
all want to be in business. Think of it. You
are a group of people who want to be in
a successful business. You all decide collectively that that business
is going to be the business of phil You're going
to be making good entertainment, all right, just TV shows
(11:48):
and films, all right. So you're all in it together.
You're all gonna work equally hard, and you're gonna all
equally reap the benefits if there are the rewards, all right,
So look at it that way. You're not hiring them.
They're not working for you. They're your partners. This is
a collaboration. It's equal.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I mean, that sounds great.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Can you think of it that way?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I'll try it, Okay. It's just I feel like it's
been so hard to get anything made, and just to
I mean, I don't mean every step of the way,
Like in the process of making it's like negotiating different prices.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Because of the way that deals. Like look at if
you said to me, you know, and the audience is
getting to know me a little bit better, right, and
I can't I don't know how well you know me.
But if you said to me, hey, Jeff, can you
help me make a film? All right? Like, can you
do the producing? You be the producer, you do all
the business stuff. The first thing that would come to
mind in my mind is I'd rather hire you just
(12:44):
to direct and I own the film. I'm not interested
in you owning the film. I want to own the
film because I'm very entrepreneurial. And if to me, the
heavy lifting is what I'm going to do, what you're
going to do is the easy stuff. A million people
I can hire to do your job. That's the way
I think. As a producer. Now you're thinking the exact opposite.
You're thinking, hey, I'm the filmmaker, I'm doing the heavy lifting.
(13:05):
This guy's the producer. Why should he share in the
profits or be a partner with me? I'd rather pay him.
I'm thinking the same thing. We're just on opposite sides
of the equation here. So then we say, Okay, I
want to own it. No, you say I want to
own it. So how but we equally own it. We
jointly own it, and we trust each other, and we
both put in the same amount of effort and hard work,
and hopefully we can collaborate and make something come of it.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I mean that sounds great, and maybe that's possible. It's hard.
You know, these three people are these two other people.
I'm one of the three that I'm working with. We've
known each other since two thousand and eight, I know.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
But you all went to film school together. Did any
of you walk across campus to the business school?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Never?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
No, of course you did it because you only collaborated
with each other artists collaborating with artists. None of you
even have the skill set or desire to do the
other stuff.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Okay, so what's the strategy to find these people? Have
to have this trusting rapport before you can.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Just let's do. The metaphorical strategy is leave the film
school for a minute, walk across campus to the business school.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I mean, I do like that network.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
With people who have a skill set that you don't have,
that you need. That's the metaphorical concept. Okay. Now, when
you're on a student in film school, you can physically
actually do that, and I tell my students to do that.
Like there is the film schools here, the business schools here.
It's a two hundred yard walk, walk across the courtyard
(14:33):
and walk in and introduce yourself. Go to a professor,
introduce yourself, Go to the cafeteria wherever these marketing students
hang out. Just network a little bit, the way you
do in the film school. Okay, once you leave film school,
that environment of the university is now you got to
go network. I mean, if you needed a marketing person,
how would you find one?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I mean I probably do a job post.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I'm not talking about hiring. Okay, if you need somebody
to do some marketing services for you, all right. You
want to mark at your business, all right. You want
to go out to the world and you want to
do beyond what you do for yourself. You want to
do it on a sort of different, bigger scale. Maybe,
So you're going to find a marketing company. You're going
to Google marketing. There's a million of them within two
(15:13):
miles of where we're sitting right here in Hollywood, right,
You're going to interview them. So you say, how do
I do it? The same way you make friendships, the
same way you make business relationships. You go out first,
you find people who represent themselves doing that function, and
then you go and you meet them, You talk to them,
you interview them. It takes a while. Like any relationship,
(15:33):
to build a rapport, to trust somebody, it's trial and error.
Some people work out, some don't. It's like any business relationship.
How did you find your friends who you you know
in film school, you didn't really know them. You've met
them for the first time. You made a few films together,
you built a raport together. Yeah, now, ironically, you know,
and I've met these guys. Right, they're nice guys, but
(15:54):
kind of pisses me off. And I'm not even in
the situation that you need to do all the heavy lifting,
the producing and they're willing to do it. How is
that fair? You need to find some.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
New friends, right, Yeah? They there there. I told him
I will teach them everything I learned, but they don't
want to learn it. I mean, that is what it
feels like.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
But they're not programmed.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
But they also want to make more movies and this
is the way we can do it with the cost
and how we.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Have a mental aversion to doing that because they are
too focus on film. And I'm saying that's a good thing.
It's a good thing that filmmakers who are artists focus
on the art. Do it, focus on the art, don't
become a business person. I'm saying to you, find a
business person who does what you don't want to do. Yeah, Okay,
(16:41):
now you're you're still haven't gotten past that.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Well, I guess it's it's not because.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
You haven't found anybody, because you haven't really gone looking
in the right.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
I did have a meeting with another producer that someone
introduced me to last week.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, the person who probably went to film school, who
actually wants to make films and direct them.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
No, he has. He's made nine movies and he's only produced.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
When you say produced, what does that mean. Did he
raise the money?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, he raised the money.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Okay, did he do the distribute arrange the distribution?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah? Perfect? He should come with this podcast. Honestly, he's
about to make his biggest budget a nine million dollars film,
about to make his biggest budget movie. He I could
see being someone he's like. I talked to him about
the next movie. He's like, let me know if you
need any help. Like that seems like a resource that like,
I mean, that's what I'm talking about I need to use.
That's perfect.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
So you've already met somebody. I met somebody, So why
not tap into that and and develop that relationship.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I might. I know, I've been very I've been thinking
about it a lot because I want to direct this
next movie.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
That that's I mean, it's a perfect fit for what
you're talking about. Yeah, somebody who understands the business, has
a proven track record in it and enjoys doing that
kind of stuff and is good at it allows you
freeze you up to do the stuff that you really
want to do. And you seems like you already trust him.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well I've I only met him once.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Okay, you met him once. You he's got a good
track yea, so far it's pretty good on paper. Yeah yeah,
now is you know, is the chemistry gonna be good?
You're gonna like him? You know that kind of stuff
is relationship building?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah yeah, yeah, So that takes time.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That's what I'm talking about though. Okay, okay, Now how'd
you meet him?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Through my wife's friend?
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Like a friend of a friend said hey, you should
meet this person.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
That is literally it, and then we could connect it
on Instagram and then we met at a bar last week.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Okay, perfect. So sometimes that happens, says what we call
organic meeting a friend of a friend says this, and
or you meet somebody just you know, coincidentally in a
bar you start chatting, or an airplane or something like that. Okay,
now let's say that that didn't happen. Is there other
ways that you could go? And by the way, you
don't even have a relationship with him, he might say,
thanks a lot, I'm not interested in working with you.
(18:44):
So now is it over because you didn't organically meet somebody?
Could you actually go and put yourself out there and
actually find someone maybe?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I mean, yeah, I'm sure I could. I don't know
what I would do.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Well, let me help you. Okay, that's the point of
this episode. So you said, what is easier said than done?
What exactly do you do? It's like, it's nice to
talk about things. This is why I want to do
this podcast because I don't want to just talk about
the theory. I want to talk about how you actually
put the theory into practice.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah all right.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So if I was in your position and I wanted
to be the artist and I want to find somebody
who I totally trust on the business side, all right,
First of all, I would not go looking in the
film circles. Not a chance. Okay, I'm not going to
film festivals. I'm not meeting other filmmakers. I'm not speaking
poorly of filmmakers, but generally they want to be the
artist too, all right, So you're right away their motivation
(19:36):
is wrong. I would go into the business circles, which
I'm gonna explain in a second. But the thing is,
you want to find somebody who doesn't want to do
what you do, which is make the movies. They're not
even interested in it, all right, Because as soon as
you find that, then it's over it, because then there's
a conflict. Right. You want to deal with people who
are excited about the film business, which which is most people,
(20:01):
all right, All these people who are in investment, banking
and real estate and marketing and all this. I'm convinced
that everybody dreams about the film business because it's the
sexiest of all the businesses. Yeah, so it's gonna be
no problem going into other industries high tech, medicine, anywhere
where people are very capable and smart, and finding people
(20:21):
who want to be in the film business.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
But don't you feel like that outside of the investing part,
that seems pretty regular standard to any business, right The
investing part that's.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
The hardest part.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I mean, no, of course you make it belittle it,
but I'm just saying, like, there are you have to
know a little bit about the rest of the business
to handle the producing side of a film. Hold on,
let's just here saying just reach out to anything. There
might be a.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Disconnect in the way we're using our terms. Okay, what
does a producer do when you say producing a film?
Is the producer the person who's putting the financing package together? Yes, okay,
can we change terms for a second. Yeah, this person
I'm talking about the business person. Do we want to
call them the producer? Is that what we want to
call them?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I mean I think they would be.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Okay, so they would be the producer. With this so
called producer, would they come on.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Set the size of the films that I'm making, I mean,
like I was the line producer on a movie.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Also, this is why I'm clarifying this. Okay, the person
I'm talking about is not going to be the line producer.
They're not going to be on set. They're not helping
make the film. There's going to be a separate line
together the money and the distribution, the business.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
The distribution stuff. Like, do you have to have some
kind of knowledge in the to handle the distribution knowledge
of what the film business?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
No, what's the film business? The film business is selling movies.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
They spent twenty six years in distribution with people who
go all around the world and sell, buy, and sell
films as a living. How many of those people do
you think I've ever been on a movie set? One percent? Maybe?
If that one out of one hundred maybe have actually
been on a movie set. None of them went to
film school.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
But if you go find some guy in the health
industry and tell and say, like, now, sell this movie,
how would they know even where to begin?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Because they're going to do what business people do. Well,
all right, They're going to say, who does this movie
actually cater to? Who's the core target audience? This is
the distribution of marketing plan that I was talking about. Okay,
who would really want to watch this? Like? Not everybody?
You know, filmmakers say everybody wants to watch this. A
good marketing and distribution person says, like, who's the core?
Who's the bullseye? Like, who do we want to get
(22:28):
this to. Let's cut a trailer that speaks to those people.
Let's figure out where they exist, like on social media
or organizations or associations or something. How do we get
to those people to get the message to them and
send them the exact right message and then send them
to where we want them to consume our product, whether
it be a streaming platform, our own website, or something
(22:48):
like that. That's called marketing, all right. A good marketing person,
it doesn't matter what product they're dealing with. A good
marketing person, like a marketing firm, can deal with any product.
They just have to ident find who the consumer for
that product is and how to connect with that consumer.
That's what marketing people do. The concept of marketing is
connecting with consumers and sending them a message. So I
(23:10):
don't care that they're in the business or not. I
care that they understand what the product you're selling is
and who the connection how to make the connection to
the right audience. Okay, so actually what you just described
is to me magic. Find somebody in like biotech or
health industry or something like that who knows how to
sell pharmaceuticals. In some ways, that's harder than selling a movie.
I mean that would be magic to me. Like you
(23:32):
can sell a generic drug to people. I mean, how
do you find exactly I mean, let's say it's diabetes,
you know, I mean huge, how do you find the diabetics?
You go and you do the research. Okay, how do
you find the horror fans? How do you find the
drama people who love this kind of you know theme?
This is what they do, well, this is their job,
(23:52):
this is what they focus on their skills, That's what
I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And then they just start reaching out to distribution.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
No no, oh no, no, no, you're jumping.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
You're jumping to all these.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Conclusions you making.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You're just well, no, this is the part that I've
not done yet. So I have literally no idea how
it's going to even go.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
So the point is we don't. We can do another
episode on actually how to do this, how it's done, okay,
But the point of this episode is to say that
you not only don't know how to do this, is
you don't even want to do this because you don't
you want to be a filmmaker. To do this properly
is going to take you away from filmmaking because you're
just not gonna have enough time to do both things
(24:32):
and do them well. All right, So if you want
to switch gears. You got to switch totally. Forget filmmaking.
But it's a thing of the past. You're now marketing.
You don't want to do that. It's not who you are,
it's not what you signed up for, it's not what
you went to school for. You want to do it
as a necessary evil so that you can do this
which you really want to do, which is filmmaking. All right,
(24:52):
So I'm saying to you, why play games with yourself
and dilute your time and everything. Just find somebody who
actually does want to do that, and who who actually
knows how to do it well. But you keep It's
like stretching the acid bad and we keep putting it back.
I say no, no, go here. Well, but if I
go there, then you know what about this? What about
that I'm saying no?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
No?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Start to think differently. This is the disconnect that I'm
talking about. You are the poster child for the disconnect.
You're thinking, okay, but you're a little further along because
most filmmakers say, I don't even want to do any
of that stuff. You're saying, okay, now, I appreciate it
has to get done, but I don't even want to
hire anybody to do it because I don't want to
pay them. And I'm saying, you're not paying them. They're
going to be your partner and they're going to do
(25:32):
something that you can't do, and they're going to do
it a heck of a lot better than you. But
you got to start thinking differently. This is what I'm saying.
When people say the film business was broken, it's not broken.
It was never working properly because of the way you're thinking.
You're thinking, I got to do this, this and this,
and I'm saying, no, you don't. You've got to have
a team, and you're not paying the team. I mean
(25:53):
you could if you want, if you had the money.
You're collaborating because you all have the same your interests
are all aligned.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
When you direct to your films, you're doing the producing right, yes,
but you're not doing the line producing. That would be insane.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
No, But I could. I know how to do it,
but I know it's no. But I wouldn't because I
don't want to spread myself too things. I don't want
to be running around doing that stuff when I run
a focus on making the movie. So but that's that's again.
Business structure so I choose what I want to do,
what I have the capacity to do well, and then
I hire out all the other jobs. But that's a
business structure. I come from this from the business side,
(26:32):
all right, so I'm trained to think business, business, business.
But I always had the passion for the art, all right,
So I backed into the art. Luckily I got the
chance to back into the art because I knew the business.
Most people start from the art side never really back
into the business side because it's too hard and they
don't like to do it. That's the disconnect. That's the disconnect, right.
(26:53):
So so all I'm saying is you got to start
retraining your mind to think that this is a collaboration
of two entrepreneurs who have the same aligned goals. It's
a partnership, that's what it is. It's not a hire
or somebody hires you that you hire.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I just got to find this person.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Well, you already told me about one. Maybe they're the
right person, maybe they're not. Because you know, chemistry is
important too. Okay, it feels to me like the resume
looks pretty good, they have the right skill set, Okay,
some proven track record, But to chemistry, you gotta like
them right because you're making a baby together. Yeah, you know,
you know, like a movie. But there's a lot that
goes into it. So I'm not saying it's going to
(27:31):
be easy to find all the right people. But if
you don't go looking, you're definitely not going to find them.
They're not going to come knocking on your door. That's
the important component. But you got to look in the
right places. Don't keep going in the same circles of
people who don't even have that skill set, which is
in the don't.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
My two partners how to do what I did.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
That is correct, because they're not interested and they're not
going to be good at it. You go and you
go find go into some I don't know, high tech
investment banking company, finds somebody who's really really good at
what they do, but super bored and wants to have
a little bit more fun and wants to do something entrepreneurial.
And you say, I am a darn good filmmaker, but
(28:11):
I am really lacking in my abilities to market and finance.
You do that, well, I can see that you've done
that well in your company, You've managed your client base well,
you're a good investor, whatever you have certain skills that
I don't have. You talk a certain way, do you
think a certain way. You do spreadsheets differently than you do.
(28:31):
Everything you do is different than what I do. And
we would be a really good team and we can
make a ton of money together by collaborating as partners.
You focus on what you do well. I'll focus on
what why do well and will be successful together. That's
the secret. And the disconnect is that filmmakers don't do that.
Most filmmakers never do the business part period. So they
(28:53):
fail miserably because not because they're not good filmmakers, because
they don't understand it's a business.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And the ones who do understand it's a business think
that they can actually do the business, and they can't
because they don't have the skills and they don't like
to do it and they're spread too thin. And that's
where you fall. You fall into that category. The second
category of somebody who at least appreciates what has to
get done, doesn't really want to do it. Okay, you
kid yourself, You play games with yourself saying, oh, I'm
(29:20):
going to do it. You don't really want to do it,
but you haven't found anybody else who could do it,
because you've gone looking in the wrong places. You've just
looked in the film circles. People say, I'll go to
a festival and I'll try to find a business person.
Business people don't go to festivals. Filmmakers go to festivals. Yeah,
go to an investment banking conference.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I do not want to go to investigate.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
But you know what, you start throwing around that you're
a filmmaker and you're looking for some.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Collaboration if I've had a success rate, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
No, And then you say, I have this vision, I've
got these great scripts. I understand filmmaking, I understand entertainment audiences,
but I need your skill set. And are you bored?
You're really good at what you do, but you want
to break away. You want to be an entreprene or.
You want to take a shot, and you love the
film business because it's super sexy, but you're not a filmmaker.
That's the fit. And I know you think, oh, that's impossible,
that's crazy, But it's not.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
No, I don't think it's impossible. No, it's it's very possible.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I say, A good chunk of my circle of friends
are basically in the real estate business, all right, some
form of real estate. They're either builders, developers, you.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Know, you've got them involved in film, I got them.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
They're all investors, okay, but none of them produce, okay.
But there are some young people, you know, they're kids
who are totally enamored with the film business, would love
to do it, but their parents have kind of trained
them to go into real estate because they've been successful
in real estate. Right, So it's a little safeer, a
little bit more tried and true type of thing. But
what they love the opportunity, Like you know, twenty eight,
(30:45):
twenty nine years old, five years out of college or whatever,
really savvy in what you do, probably have an MBA
really no numbers, really no you know, underwriting a real
estate deal, this kind of stuff. These are good, sharp
kids who really are skilled, would love the opportunity. That
would it be a big risk, of course it would be,
But all entrepreneurial ventures are big risks. They don't need
(31:07):
to know how films get made. They just need to
know that a good film hopefully can connect with an
audience the way a real estate deal can connect with tenants,
you know, building a building. It's the same connection in
a different environment. It breaks my heart that all of
my students in the various film schools that I teach in,
which are big film schools UCLA, San Dio State, Okay,
(31:30):
I'm the only one who teaches the business stuff. Most
film schools don't teach it at all. But guess what.
Guess what I say this, And you know it breaks
my heart to say what I'm about to say, but
it's the truth. They don't really take interest in what
I teach. They're not really interested. They take it because
they need to take it, because it's a mandatory course,
all right. They're not really interested in understanding how distribution
(31:51):
deals which.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Sold to me because it's like, if you want to
actually get something made on your own, you know that.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
But they don't. They didn't sign up for film school
to learn how to negotiate a distribution deal. They signed
up to learn how to use a camera, how to direct,
how to write. They signed up for the artistic components.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
And I get it ten years later after they graduate
and they still don't have a job in the film business.
They're gonna wish.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
The find took that class. But that's ten years too
that's ten years too late. That's ten years too late.
What I'm saying is and the film schools aren't going
to ever change. They're teaching the art of filmmaking. That's
what they signed up for. So often I say to
the administration, I said, like, maybe my courses would be
better taught in the business school. Then I could teach,
you know, students who are interested in finance how to
(32:34):
actually do tax credits and financial structures and everything to
put a film together, because it would.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Be fun to see business majors excited about producing films
like that would be cool.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
That would be unbelievable. Now, think about that if I
said to you, Hey, by the way, Ryan, you're a
great filmmaker. I teach in the business school, all right,
Santio State, and I teach business students, finance and marketing
majors how to specialize in films.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I want to come to your classes. I'm going to network.
You want to come to every.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Networking event and you want to meet people, and you
want to find somebody who is going to be your
right hand person. That's the key. Yeah, okay, So that's
the disconnect. The disconnect is that kind of stuff is
being taught in the film schools. So I'm trying to
change that, not necessarily with those schools. I'm trying to
change it as doing podcasts, doing this kind of stuff
(33:23):
to explain. And every once in a while somebody comes
out of the woodwork and says to me, and it's
not film people who do it. It's non film people
say to me, Hey, I've always been interested in the
film business because it's sexy, right and appealing.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
So you're finding these people.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I find them all the time because I'm out there,
you know, talking business of film. And by the way,
I call it the business of film, you know, and
I often say the film business, but it's in classes
I introduce it as the business of film because I
want to put the word business before film in my classes.
I want them to say the business of film as
opposed to the film business, because the word film will
(34:01):
always come before business, and I want to prioritize the business. Now,
I recognize that I'm barking up a tree, the wrong tree,
because they're not there for that. They're there for the
film part. So I know that I know that, and
I ease off, and I don't go as hard at
them as I'm going at you. And I you know,
I say, it's like, it's a shame because if you
knew what I knew exactly what you just said a
(34:23):
minute ago, like ten years out, I wish I would
have paid more attention in this guy's class. But they
don't because it takes ten years to figure that out.
You know. Luckily at UCLA teaching the extension program and
a lot of people come back, it's you know, continuing it,
and they say, Okay, I'm ten years out now I
need to learn this stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I think if the course existed, or maybe it didn't,
you know, I was saying, I feel like I would
take the class, but maybe, but I could be completely wrong.
You know, I have no idea, but I teach it.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
I teach it down the street at UCLA, and you're
not in the class. I didn't see you signed up
for it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Well, no, no, I meant when I was in Oh
oh no, No, you mean you don't think I would
have known? No, no, No, that's probably right.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
You wouldn't. You wouldn't because you're not mentally at that
point in your life. Your mindset is I need to
learn the art and the craft of filmmaking, not the
business side. You just don't appreciate. I didn't appreciate it. Like,
as I said, I got lucky because my dad said
to me, you should go get a business degree. And
I'm thinking, like, does that makes sense that I want
to be a filmmaker. Why would I not go to
(35:20):
film school?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, I mean you were lucky to get that advice, though.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I was super lucky to get that advice, you know.
And I tell the story all the time, and I
thank my dad a lot. I mean Dad's not live anymore,
but I mean I thanked him a lot. It's like
you set me down the right track. And I had
no clue about that. I mean, it was completely illogical
at the time for me that I would go and
get a law degree wanting to be a filmmaker. But
(35:46):
then it all connected, like you said, ten years down
the road, then you see how it all connects. So
that's why I call it the great disconnect, because you
can't make that connection at that point. So I'm just
trying to make the connection. I'm artificially saying here's the connection.
You're not gonna know it for ten years, but here's
the connection. Now. There's not a chance if I would
(36:06):
have said to you ten years ago, like when you're
going to film school, don't go to film school, go
to business school. You would have said, there's not a
chance I'm going to film school.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
That's correct, that part wouldn't have happened. But the course
in film school, I think, I may, you know.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
But it's one course and you wouldn't be And listen,
half the students don't even come to the course. They
watch recorded lectures and stuff like that. It's not interesting material.
Like if I know, I know, I'm not even gonna
say I'm guessing. I know how important this stuff is,
Like I know from experience how important this is. This
is the game changer for them. Yeah, but they don't know.
So I know that they don't know, and I'm not
(36:44):
gonna force feed it. I'm gonna present it. Hopefully some
of them will, you know, digest some of it. Yeah,
most won't. But it's okay. But at some point, at
some point, I'm gonna have to start teaching in the
business school.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
I mean, I think that'd be so great.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah, because these these are students who would eat up
the idea of learning about finance and distribution.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Then the film students would know to where to go.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Correct Then they could take a course out of you know,
because so you're allowed to do like cross divisional courses
once you know a couple of electives. So I do
get quite a few business school students in my Business
Aspects class. Oh good, which is good, but you know
they are one course out of the because they're you're
curious about the film business.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, so interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Anyways, just to wrap this up, that is the disconnect Ryan. You.
I love the fact that you are who you are
because you represent who everybody is out there, all the filmmakers.
I mean, you're sort of a little more progressed because
you're ten years out or whatever. I don't know exactly
your exact age, but you are out there. You've just
made a feature. You know what it is to produce,
(37:50):
you know what it is to raise money, you know
what it is to do all the business functions, not
all of them, because you haven't done distribution yet. So
that's when we'll have a really good conversation. Yeah all right,
but at least you've tried it. But you've also admitted
to me that you would prefer not to do it.
You'd rather do the directing. And you want your buddies
now to do the producing, and you know darn well
they're not going to do it. So there's the disconnect.
(38:12):
They're just not going to do it because they don't
want to do it, and they wouldn't even be good
at it. And they're good guys. I've met them. They're
good guys.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
They're good guys.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
They're good, honest, hard working guys. They're just not interested
in that right and they probably don't have the skill
set for it. That doesn't make them great filmmakers. It
just makes them bad business people. Not bad, but they're
not going to do what needs to get done. So
you need you need somebody on your team. You need
somebody on your side. If you can get the guy
you just told me about, that would be great, and
(38:39):
if not, you need to go shopping around. I mean,
I'm not saying you get a student, but get somebody
who's ten years out in business, who really savvy on them.
I would say, go for the marketing side, look at
marketing firms, look at people in marketing departments of companies
that you respect. I would say, try to go mid
range or smaller entrepreneurial stuff because the big companies they're
(39:00):
you know, in a big company just one tiny cog
in a big wheel. So you want somebody who's a
little more entrepreneurial, gotten their hands dirty or a little
bit and a lot of different things could manage an
entrepreneurial environment. We have to do everything, as you know,
you've got to do a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Okay, well you heard it here. If you're that person,
email Jeff.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Okay. On that note, I always this is a great
episode because Ryan represents you like the filmmakers and this
discussion we had, probably you're going to rejig in your
mind many many times over. So when you do that,
if you do have questions or you want, you know,
to express something. I love the input. Please email me
(39:40):
at Jdeverett at Devrettmedia dot com and I will address
as many as I can and from wherever you're watching
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