July 30, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode, Jeff Deverett is joined by longtime collaborator and sound designer Dan Blessinger to dive deep into one of the most overlooked—but absolutely vital—aspects of indie filmmaking: sound design.
Together, they pull back the curtain on what it really takes to create an immersive audio experience in indie film, and how sound can make or break a project—even when you're working with limited resources. With years of collaboration between them, Jeff and Dan share real-world tactics, budget hacks, and stories from past projects that prove audio is never an afterthought.
Together, they pull back the curtain on what it really takes to create an immersive audio experience in indie film, and how sound can make or break a project—even when you're working with limited resources. With years of collaboration between them, Jeff and Dan share real-world tactics, budget hacks, and stories from past projects that prove audio is never an afterthought.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So you made a great movie, you put lots of
time and effort into shooting it properly and hopefully recording
it well on set, and now you want it to
sound great, and that all happens in post production sound.
So getting the mix right, the music, the dialogue, and
the special effects is so critical to having your movie
look and sound great. If you want to be a
(00:24):
successful indie filmmaker, you need to know a lot about
not just the production of movies, but the business. We
are going to tell you the truth and reality of
what really happens in the indie film business. Hi, everybody,
welcome back. Today. We are going to talk about the
(00:44):
importance of doing a final, fantastic sound mix for your film.
So my guest today is Dan Blessinger, and he has
his companies called dB Mix, and I'm going to call
him a sound designer. That's what the term I use.
I mean, some people say sound engineer, some people say mixer.
But there's more than mixing. The mix comes at the
(01:07):
very end when you're gonna put all the elements together,
but I think it starts with understanding what the elements
are and getting them all together. So Dan, welcome to
the show. Thanks for coming on. So you tell I
mean I was going to go through it, but can
you just tell everybody what elements you work on and
prepare to do a final mix for a movie?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Sure? So, depending on what our role is on any
particular film, if I'm overseeing the entirety of the sound,
then I'm overseeing dialogue, sound effects, and the music, and
then the final re record mix.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, let's assume you're doing the whole thing. So can
you just go through those three elements and just talk
about sort of the importance of each thing.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Sure. So, if we're doing the post production on a film,
we'll get all the elements that were recorded on set,
So we get all the production elements, so all the
actor mics, any boom mics that were on the set,
and then we're basically going through it and trying to
figure out what we can keep and what maybe needs
to get fixed and what maybe needs to get replaced.
(02:07):
And that's true of dialogue and sound effects as well.
So that's the first thing we do. We just sort
of make an assessment of what's usable from the initial production,
and then once we kind of define that, we split
up into teams. So I have a dialogue editor and
a sound effects editor, and the dialogue editors will as
(02:30):
quick as possible try to save as much of the
production dialogue as we can and then identify which pieces
need to be replaced with ADR, and then we'll make
an ADR list and send that to the director. And
our last film it was Jeff, so we sent that
to Jeff and we reviewed those lines and then decided
which actors we needed to bring in for ADR. Once
(02:52):
we have a clean dialogue track, then we start building
the effects around that. Actually, they're going simultaneously. There's another
editor working on sound effects and we're doing the same.
We're trying to farm as much of the recorded footsteps
and door shuts and different things that are going to
make the film sound more real and try to use
(03:13):
those and farm those and put those into our template.
And then whatever is not usable or missing or doesn't
sound so great because a truck drove by and a
certain scene, we'll just build those and we'll design those
scenes sound effects wise. So those two are kind of
going concurrently, and then what's that's together. Usually we start
(03:34):
to get music from the composer. That really helps us
understand how much the music's going to cover certain scenes,
otherwise we have to really fill them with a lot
of detailed sound effects. We try to do that anyway,
but depending on how much time we have, we'll sort
of dictate, you know, how particular we can get with
sound design detail. So once we get the music, then
(03:57):
we have all the elements. Then we do the mix,
We do the re record mix, and that's the fun
part when you really start to see the film come
together and you can start getting into the the real
detail of weaving the music, sound effects and dialogue together.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So for those people who don't understand this process in detail,
the mix is bringing all of those three elements together, dialogue,
sound effects, and music and balancing them in a way
that tells the story best. So in some scenes you
might bring up the music tracks and some scenes you
might bring up the dialogue tracks. It helps with the
storytelling and the sound effects. You know, some scenes actually
the sound effects are front and center, but usually you know,
(04:37):
in the films I shoot the dramas, they're not big
action films, they might be let's just go back to
dialogue for a second. I am not a huge fan
of ADR, which is that alternative dialogue replacement, or is
that what is exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, yeah, dialogue replacement, that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Okay. The reason I'm not a big fan of it
is because I never feel like it matches perfectly. What's
your take on that.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, Well, I wouldn't consider myself an expert dialogue editor
by any stretch. But there are some incredible tools now
that help match it as much as possible. But it
is a tedious process and most directors try to avoid
it because it's expensive. You know, you have to get
actors back in and sometimes that's difficult. They might be
(05:17):
out of town shooting another film or whatever. So it's
it can be tricky, but I'm with you on that.
It's it's really sort of used as a last resort. Now,
if you have an unlimited budget on your film, then
you can just spend days and days and days, you know,
replacing dialogue and getting it just perfect so you can't
really tell that, you know, so they can make it
(05:39):
match pretty well. If you have a short schedule or
a low budget, you have to just you have to
find a way to make it work. And but yeah,
we generally fight pretty hard to keep the original original
recorded takes, just because it's it's easier for us to
make it real. Yeah, I share your opinion. They're just
sometimes where where the actor might hit their shirt and
(06:03):
the loud MIC's hidden in there, or they might, you know,
do some gesture and you get this big loud thump
or some scratchy sound on the mic that you just
can't get rid of. And in that case, you either
you hope you have a good take on the boom
mic or even the adjacent actors mic, and you just
try to make it work as best you can. But
there are some cases where in our film that we
(06:25):
just worked on, there was a scene where the actors
were on the beach and there were waves crashing and
people driving by, and there's so much extra noise. Is
really hard to get a good, clean dialogue take in
that moment. So we had to replace a few things.
And so in those cases you just have to and
you do the best you can.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think you guys as sound engineers
do a good job in recording it and getting the
levels and everything like that. I think it's just difficult
for an actor to find the same emotional sort of
tempo that they had on the set when they were
doing the scene. I mean, a real well trained actor
can do it. But it's tricky because you're not in
the moment. It's after the fact, you're looking at a screen.
You're trying to get the pacing right. But it's the
(07:06):
emotion that's where I find it lacks a little bit sometimes.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well, I would say that's why a really good location
sound engineer is worth their weight in gold, because I
think that their relationship with the director is really important
because the director is keying in on that emotional performance
and trying to get that best take. But if it's
not usable, the location sound person has to say, we
(07:31):
need another one, and there has to be a trust
there between the director and the sound recordist on the
session or on the set. I agree. I agree.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
So let's just talk about sound effects, so otherwise known
as fully or is fully different. I mean fully is
when you sort of create sound effects, right, you guys
dissect the movie. I mean you're looking sometimes at things
that nobody's looking at. Like for I give you an example. Okay,
two people are sitting and having a meal together. Everybody
always takes for granted that there's sounds of the cutlery,
(08:03):
there's sounds of the eating, there's sounds of you know,
things going on, like there might be clock in the back.
There's all these sounds, and you guys have to look
at the whole scene and look at every single element
to recreate what is happening in that scene. So can
you just talk? Sometimes you can use a library, sometimes
you have to record.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, And I tend to fully more than I use
a library, only because there's an art to that as well,
and there's a realness to it. I'm sure there are
sound effects editors out there that have vast libraries that
they know intimately and they can just that's the sound
of a fork on a hard plate in a large room,
(08:41):
or you know, and they know how to manipulate that
really well. I find it almost faster to just fully
things because you're responding.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Can you just then just take a minute to explain
fully to people who have never seen a fully studio.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, so, well, let me back up and I'll say,
you know, so we do use some library and some folly,
and I would say we probably do eighty percent fully
twenty percent library. I just think it's faster and more
real a fully stage, A really good one will have
(09:14):
several pits with different textures like sand or concrete or
grassy kinds of things. So when you're doing the footsteps
and you're re enacting the footsteps, you have these different
you know, they're like little you know, four by eight
you know, pits, so different textures for floors. A really
good folio artists will have a bunch of different types
(09:37):
of shoes that they can use in those different textures
to really make it match what's happening on scene. And
it's usually a fairly big room, so if you did
it in a small, little, boxy room, you would hear that.
Usually a big stage or large sized room. And then
there are all kinds of props that a good folio
artist will have, just shelves and shells of things that
(10:00):
are their go to items that recreate certain sounds. So,
for example, a classic bone breaking sound is like a
stock of celery or something like that. So they're going
to have, oh, this is my bone breaking sound, and
this is my physical punching sound. And it might be
you know, in the old days, they used to use
like a steak, and you know, they would hit the
(10:22):
steak piece of meat. But there's other other things and
other techniques that really great fully people use and they
will have just huge number of these little toys and
props that are kind of their go tos for We
have some, but we're certainly not you know, like the
big boys would have a big stage with.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, I've been in fully stages where where there's way
more props than a prop department to have. I mean,
it's just it's it's all over exactly, everything from lamps
to baseball mits to everything that you can imagine.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It's funny you think that's the prop department of a
studio sacks the fully stage.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, just like we did a film. I think you
saw the film, but there was a character in this
film who wore like a military camo suit and it
was like grassy suit. And we're like, we had to
get every movement that this character made, and like, what
are we going to do for that? And I found
a pom pom from my kids, you know, high school
(11:23):
football game, you know, they were giving out to the parents,
and I'm like, okay, so we get a pom pom
and we sort of push it into our hand and
it sounded just like what you're seeing on the screen.
So sometimes what it takes to create that sound is
not what you think. You know, you can use a
stock of celery or a pom pom or something that
(11:43):
actually matches really well what you see on screen. It's
very artistic and fun.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, it certainly is really like just what you described,
like what would sound like you're seeing is perception, right,
I mean, it's not the reality because you're using a
different It's just a perception.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
That's right right now.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Use we had a session, actually, Jim did a session
with us about the importance of you know, really good, solid,
passionate music. So let's just go jump right to the mix.
So when you're doing a mix.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
You're looking.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I mean often the director's sitting with you. I mean
I sat with you during our mix. Well, I came
in after you did the first run, and then I
came in after and said, okay, let's try this. Try this.
What are you looking for? Are you looking for the
passion and the scene, the excitement? I mean, you know,
when I spoke to our cinematographer and the editor, I
talked about capturing the essence of a scene. Is that
what the mix is all about? What is it?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well? I think so, because our first film together, I
was trying to understand what was important to you as
a director, and clearly it was a dialogue driven film,
and so I knew that. You know, we had these
very kind of long dialogue scenes that didn't some of
them weren't scored. So I was like, oh boy, we're
going to have to really create a mood and a
(12:53):
realism in that dining room scene with the forks and
the plates and that kind of stuff. Right, So I
knew we were going to have our work cut out
for a filling up those scenes because there was no
music to hide behind and so on. But to answer
your question, I'm trying to get in your head as
the director and understand what you're trying to say in
any given scene, or the overall message of the film
(13:17):
or where you want to take it, and then make
decisions based on that, because not everybody's the same, whether
I'm working with a composer or a music person or
a film director. I find it much more efficient if
I can really understand what's important to you, because what's
important to you might not be that important to the
other director that I just worked with. I think our
(13:38):
first spotting session where I was just taking really good
notes of Jeff pointed this out, and so let's really
focus on that. And he told me kind of what
he was going for in this scene. Let's design it
in a way that is going to realize that vision.
So in a mix, in the context of a mix,
I'm really trying to help with the storytelling as much
(14:00):
as I can. And I think that if you make
bad decisions in a mix, it takes people out of
out of the moment. Yeah, it takes the audience out
of the moment and they're thinking, why can't I hear
the dialogue or what was that weird sound? Or why
is the music so loud here or whatever. I just
(14:21):
want to draw the viewer listener into your vision as
the director, not be a distraction. Once I could kind
of get to get it to that point. That's sort
of like I use the analogy of standing a piece
of wood. You know, you're doing various levels of sandpaper.
The first levels are very coarse standing where you're getting
(14:41):
all the burrs and knots out of it, and then
you use a different grade of sandpaper and you do
a little finer finish until you get it down to
that fine tuning. And at that point I want to
just I'm trying to maximize the story in that moment.
It could be an emotional scene. If it's a heartwarming
scene where the music is very epic, and you know,
(15:03):
we'll just push the music and draw you in. If
it's an action scene, it's probably going to be more
sound effects driven. We're going to push whatever we can
to maximize the emotional story or feel in that moment.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
How did you become a sound designer, Like, what what
was your journey?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Well, I would say, I'm you know, I really my
main background is as a as a music producer, a
music mixer. So I started in a studio called Martin
Sound in Alhambra, and I worked my way up from
runner to chief engineer over several years. But we were
doing small orchestras for episodic television. So we were doing
(15:46):
Lost and Seventh Heaven, and we were doing various animated
shows and some HBO movies and it's usually thirty forty
piece orchestra kinds of things. And so I really cut
my teeth as a music engineer and producer, and so
I started, you know, I would have clients who composers
who would hire me to record and mix their musical score,
(16:08):
and I would meet the director of the film and
they'd say, well, would you just mix the film? And
it started as mixing documentaries, and then it kind of
grew into Okay, well we need to dialogue edit this
a bit and clean that up. And so we started
doing dialogue editing my team and I and then I
was working on the Tom and Jerry cartoon. Jib Covell
(16:29):
and I we were teaming up in another composer named
Vivek Madala. We were doing the music and we got
asked to do the sound effects and that was really
where my team sort of cut its teeth in animation.
So we started doing all the animation sound effects. It's
really fun in a hoot, And eventually I started just
mixing those shows and then mixed a few features for
(16:50):
Warner and then it just it kind of grew from there, honestly,
but I came into it from the music side, and
I think one notable story was as a music mixer,
you know, the joke in the music mix was always, oh, gosh,
it's only gonna it's gonna You're gonna be buried under
the dialogue and sound effect, So why why try so
(17:11):
hard to mix the music perfectly, and we would you know,
we were artists, so we were trying to make the music
sound amazing and and then we'd go see it in
the theater or we'd see it on TV and go, man,
those guys, they those blasted you know, rerecording mixers. They
buried our music. How dare they? And it wasn't until
I started doing the re recording mix that I realized,
oh man, all these years I've been cursing their name,
(17:34):
and now I'm one of them, and I'm turning the
music down because I can't do And so that really
changed my perspective once I started doing re record mix
and same with sound design. I would say that I
love working with my team of sound designers and with
a composer, because if you have a good relationship with
(17:57):
the composer, you're really working together. And like after we
did the spotting session with you on the last film,
I immediately called Jim the composer and said, Okay, I'm
going to stay out of your way on this. You
do this and I'll just do some background effects and
things and let's let the music really carry this. I
won't compete with you. And likewise he would call me
(18:17):
and say, what are you thinking for this? And I'd say, Wow,
we could fill it up, and we could really make
it a full sound palette, and maybe you just you
just score it with just Chelli and low strings, and
that way we'll kind of stay out of each other's way.
And I think those conversations really save you a lot
of time and trouble if you're lucky enough to have
(18:38):
that kind of working relationship. But I think it's really
you're on the same team, and ultimately we want to
see the director's vision really be fulfilled, and so we're
trying to find the most creative and efficient ways of getting.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
So can you dispell a myth for me? I mean,
you're you're sitting in your nice soundstage. So I've been
in obviously, that's where we did the mix for our
last film.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I'm actually in my home studio right now.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Oh you are, okay, all right, it looks similar, all right.
So some of these you know, your big sound stage
has a gigantic board, I don't know, like sixty four
channel board or whatever it is. But then you have
the computer right beside it with you know, everything is
digital and it's all so do these boards still get
used like these slider boards. I mean, when would you
use the manual as opposed to digital.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Well, you know our studio, Hunt Recording Studio, which I
had the privilege of designing and building with some partners.
It's really kind of my dream studio, and we could
talk about that later if you want, But we really
built it as a music studio because it's it's a
fairly good sized scoring stage. We could put a forty
piece orchestra in there, yeah, and really high, you know,
(19:50):
twenty something foot ceilings the board. When we did the
string session for your film, you know, we might have
had a dozen microphones out in the room, you know,
one on this violin section and one on that violin section,
and one on the viola section, and one on the
cello section, and then some room mics and some different
mics in different places in the room. So those all
(20:10):
show up on this analog board with all the channels.
That's sort of the front end where the mic pre's
and equalizers and levels get adjusted before it goes into
what we call the box or pro tools in this case,
before it gets recorded and converted to digital. It has
to go through some kind of preamp stage and so
(20:31):
the board is really the front end of that where
the microphones come in and we're able to balance them
and record them properly.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So so people still use these big boards.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
They're not sure? Oh, definitely, yeah, And we used it
in the Folly sessions too, because we might have a
dozen microphones out in the room for Folly and this
mic works really great for this footstep, but in the
next thing we need to have one where the chair
squeaking and we're moving in a chair, or you know,
there's some wrestling, we're gonna use that mic. And so
(21:02):
the board is sort of the interface into the computer
that that we use, and it happens to be just
a really great sounding board that we're fortunate to have.
But it definitely gets used more on the front end
of things than in the mix because the mix gets
done these days almost completely in the box, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And also you have you know, obviously good quality microphones
too to capture all that for sure, bring it in. Okay,
So last question, So let's say somebody wants to go
down the road you're you know, the journey you've taken.
What does that journey look like? What should they do?
Should they train as a sound engineer, musician. I mean,
what what's the right way to go?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Oh that's a really good question. Hmm. I have to
think about that.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Like you have your you know, I worked with some
of your team, right, you know the folio. So are
they looking to become what I call these sound designers
sort of the overall person who manages posts.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So there are various schools in LA and around the
country that have audio engineering degrees, and you know, hopefully
in that classroom environment you're learning the basics of audio.
As technology develops and as home studios proliferate, I've seen
a bit of a shift. I've actually worked with the
(22:19):
US Film School a little bit and USSE as well,
so UCLA and USC. When I'm working with the USC kids,
they are all composers who want to know out how
to sound engineer too, because they almost have to now
they have to record their own music in order to
get their demos made or the budgets are challenging at times,
(22:40):
so they can't afford to hire an engineer like me.
They've got to do it themselves. So to some degree, now,
I think filmmakers film students have to learn some basic
things about audio and micing and sound editing, and they
need to be able to kind of make their own
edits in premiere or final cut and things like that,
(23:02):
and be able to sort of do some things themselves.
And I'm seeing more and more students who might be
a composition major, but they they're pretty well trained in audio.
I'm seeing kind of more universities sort of try to
teach their music students a little bit more about audio
and vice versa. And so the classes that I've spoken
(23:24):
to with UCLA, it's about half directors and half musicians composers,
and those are really interesting because we get to kind
of give a sound engine. I'm sort of like the
middleman between the two.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
That makes sense, though, It makes sense that you would
have half musicians, half film people, half music people.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
It's great, and I think the directors learn a lot
because they're hearing from somebody like me saying, hey, directors,
you really need to pay attention to this, this, and
this right, and composers you need to understand where the
directors are coming from and pay attention to this, this
and this and so that kind of conversation I think
turns out to be pretty valuable for the students.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Nice makes sense makes sense. Well, Dan, I just want
to thank you for, first of all, doing a great
job on my movie.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Obviously, sure it was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
You were there that night for that big premiere screening.
And it's a funny Dan. We had this huge premier screening,
like eight hundred people in this gigantic theater. It was
fantastic and Dan was there and he said, Jeff, I
hope you don't mind, but can I speak to the
sound guys, not you? I want to make sure this
is perfect. And I appreciated that because I didn't know
what to ask them. I mean, it was you know,
it was a beautiful theater, but it was a little
(24:32):
bit antiquated. I mean one of these old, you know,
eighty year old theaters. So the sound system, I don't know.
Was it good? You tell me? I mean to to
me it sounded good.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well. When when I found out the premiere was going
to be in a concert hall, I immediately went, oh, man,
we're in trouble because I just mixed this in five
dot ones around, so I'm gonna have to really review
the stereo mix and maybe make some adjustments so that
it doesn't sound bad in a big music hall. I
was very worried. And so the reason I was worried
(25:04):
was because I mixed another film years and years ago
when we had a big premiere and it was actually
a silent film. I think it was Lon Cheney, old
black and white silent film and it was nothing but music.
We got hired by Turner Classic Movies to score this film.
I went to the premiere and all of my colleagues
were there, and it's really a celebration of the composer
(25:25):
and the music. And so I'm sitting next to, you know,
Bruce Broughton and Elmer Bernstein and all these various Steen
music colleagues that I had great respect for, and they
started the film and it didn't sound very good. In fact,
it sounded kind of bad. And I just spent you know,
five six weeks mixing this film and it was really uncomfortable.
(25:50):
And I came to find out that the projection has
had some kind of Dolby setting on that was really
mucking up the sound. I thought, I am never going
to do this again, Like I will go in and listen.
I have to get there a day early. I'm going
to make sure that if we're going to premiere this
film in front of eight hundred people in San Francisco.
You know, it's got to at least sound pretty good.
(26:11):
And so luckily it worked out well and it was
very successfull.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I appreciate that you were there. You were the first
one there, and you made sure that that guy you know,
turn it on let me hear it a few times,
and so that's great. Yeah, right, well, thank you. Thank
you for taking care of business for my films and
for being a guest on our show. Your insights were
very valuable and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah. No, I appreciate it too, and thanks a lot.
And I would love to, you know, do more with
you and any of your students. Just give us a.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Call, Okay, Thanks Dan, all right, Thanks Jeff. So that's
Dan Blessinger. He is just a fantastic sound engineer slash
sound designer. He really understands how to capture the balance
between music, effects and dialogue and that really elevates the
quality and the entertainment value the film. Do not take
sound for granted. It is so important
So you made a great movie, you put lots of
time and effort into shooting it properly and hopefully recording
it well on set, and now you want it to
sound great, and that all happens in post production sound.
So getting the mix right, the music, the dialogue, and
the special effects is so critical to having your movie
look and sound great. If you want to be a
(00:24):
successful indie filmmaker, you need to know a lot about
not just the production of movies, but the business. We
are going to tell you the truth and reality of
what really happens in the indie film business. Hi, everybody,
welcome back. Today. We are going to talk about the
(00:44):
importance of doing a final, fantastic sound mix for your film.
So my guest today is Dan Blessinger, and he has
his companies called dB Mix, and I'm going to call
him a sound designer. That's what the term I use.
I mean, some people say sound engineer, some people say mixer.
But there's more than mixing. The mix comes at the
(01:07):
very end when you're gonna put all the elements together,
but I think it starts with understanding what the elements
are and getting them all together. So Dan, welcome to
the show. Thanks for coming on. So you tell I
mean I was going to go through it, but can
you just tell everybody what elements you work on and
prepare to do a final mix for a movie?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Sure? So, depending on what our role is on any
particular film, if I'm overseeing the entirety of the sound,
then I'm overseeing dialogue, sound effects, and the music, and
then the final re record mix.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, let's assume you're doing the whole thing. So can
you just go through those three elements and just talk
about sort of the importance of each thing.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Sure. So, if we're doing the post production on a film,
we'll get all the elements that were recorded on set,
So we get all the production elements, so all the
actor mics, any boom mics that were on the set,
and then we're basically going through it and trying to
figure out what we can keep and what maybe needs
to get fixed and what maybe needs to get replaced.
(02:07):
And that's true of dialogue and sound effects as well.
So that's the first thing we do. We just sort
of make an assessment of what's usable from the initial production,
and then once we kind of define that, we split
up into teams. So I have a dialogue editor and
a sound effects editor, and the dialogue editors will as
(02:30):
quick as possible try to save as much of the
production dialogue as we can and then identify which pieces
need to be replaced with ADR, and then we'll make
an ADR list and send that to the director. And
our last film it was Jeff, so we sent that
to Jeff and we reviewed those lines and then decided
which actors we needed to bring in for ADR. Once
(02:52):
we have a clean dialogue track, then we start building
the effects around that. Actually, they're going simultaneously. There's another
editor working on sound effects and we're doing the same.
We're trying to farm as much of the recorded footsteps
and door shuts and different things that are going to
make the film sound more real and try to use
(03:13):
those and farm those and put those into our template.
And then whatever is not usable or missing or doesn't
sound so great because a truck drove by and a
certain scene, we'll just build those and we'll design those
scenes sound effects wise. So those two are kind of
going concurrently, and then what's that's together. Usually we start
(03:34):
to get music from the composer. That really helps us
understand how much the music's going to cover certain scenes,
otherwise we have to really fill them with a lot
of detailed sound effects. We try to do that anyway,
but depending on how much time we have, we'll sort
of dictate, you know, how particular we can get with
sound design detail. So once we get the music, then
(03:57):
we have all the elements. Then we do the mix,
We do the re record mix, and that's the fun
part when you really start to see the film come
together and you can start getting into the the real
detail of weaving the music, sound effects and dialogue together.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So for those people who don't understand this process in detail,
the mix is bringing all of those three elements together, dialogue,
sound effects, and music and balancing them in a way
that tells the story best. So in some scenes you
might bring up the music tracks and some scenes you
might bring up the dialogue tracks. It helps with the
storytelling and the sound effects. You know, some scenes actually
the sound effects are front and center, but usually you know,
(04:37):
in the films I shoot the dramas, they're not big
action films, they might be let's just go back to
dialogue for a second. I am not a huge fan
of ADR, which is that alternative dialogue replacement, or is
that what is exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, yeah, dialogue replacement, that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Okay. The reason I'm not a big fan of it
is because I never feel like it matches perfectly. What's
your take on that.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, Well, I wouldn't consider myself an expert dialogue editor
by any stretch. But there are some incredible tools now
that help match it as much as possible. But it
is a tedious process and most directors try to avoid
it because it's expensive. You know, you have to get
actors back in and sometimes that's difficult. They might be
(05:17):
out of town shooting another film or whatever. So it's
it can be tricky, but I'm with you on that.
It's it's really sort of used as a last resort. Now,
if you have an unlimited budget on your film, then
you can just spend days and days and days, you know,
replacing dialogue and getting it just perfect so you can't
really tell that, you know, so they can make it
(05:39):
match pretty well. If you have a short schedule or
a low budget, you have to just you have to
find a way to make it work. And but yeah,
we generally fight pretty hard to keep the original original
recorded takes, just because it's it's easier for us to
make it real. Yeah, I share your opinion. They're just
sometimes where where the actor might hit their shirt and
(06:03):
the loud MIC's hidden in there, or they might, you know,
do some gesture and you get this big loud thump
or some scratchy sound on the mic that you just
can't get rid of. And in that case, you either
you hope you have a good take on the boom
mic or even the adjacent actors mic, and you just
try to make it work as best you can. But
there are some cases where in our film that we
(06:25):
just worked on, there was a scene where the actors
were on the beach and there were waves crashing and
people driving by, and there's so much extra noise. Is
really hard to get a good, clean dialogue take in
that moment. So we had to replace a few things.
And so in those cases you just have to and
you do the best you can.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think you guys as sound engineers
do a good job in recording it and getting the
levels and everything like that. I think it's just difficult
for an actor to find the same emotional sort of
tempo that they had on the set when they were
doing the scene. I mean, a real well trained actor
can do it. But it's tricky because you're not in
the moment. It's after the fact, you're looking at a screen.
You're trying to get the pacing right. But it's the
(07:06):
emotion that's where I find it lacks a little bit sometimes.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well, I would say that's why a really good location
sound engineer is worth their weight in gold, because I
think that their relationship with the director is really important
because the director is keying in on that emotional performance
and trying to get that best take. But if it's
not usable, the location sound person has to say, we
(07:31):
need another one, and there has to be a trust
there between the director and the sound recordist on the
session or on the set. I agree. I agree.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
So let's just talk about sound effects, so otherwise known
as fully or is fully different. I mean fully is
when you sort of create sound effects, right, you guys
dissect the movie. I mean you're looking sometimes at things
that nobody's looking at. Like for I give you an example. Okay,
two people are sitting and having a meal together. Everybody
always takes for granted that there's sounds of the cutlery,
(08:03):
there's sounds of the eating, there's sounds of you know,
things going on, like there might be clock in the back.
There's all these sounds, and you guys have to look
at the whole scene and look at every single element
to recreate what is happening in that scene. So can
you just talk? Sometimes you can use a library, sometimes
you have to record.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, And I tend to fully more than I use
a library, only because there's an art to that as well,
and there's a realness to it. I'm sure there are
sound effects editors out there that have vast libraries that
they know intimately and they can just that's the sound
of a fork on a hard plate in a large room,
(08:41):
or you know, and they know how to manipulate that
really well. I find it almost faster to just fully
things because you're responding.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Can you just then just take a minute to explain
fully to people who have never seen a fully studio.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, so, well, let me back up and I'll say,
you know, so we do use some library and some folly,
and I would say we probably do eighty percent fully
twenty percent library. I just think it's faster and more
real a fully stage, A really good one will have
(09:14):
several pits with different textures like sand or concrete or
grassy kinds of things. So when you're doing the footsteps
and you're re enacting the footsteps, you have these different
you know, they're like little you know, four by eight
you know, pits, so different textures for floors. A really
good folio artists will have a bunch of different types
(09:37):
of shoes that they can use in those different textures
to really make it match what's happening on scene. And
it's usually a fairly big room, so if you did
it in a small, little, boxy room, you would hear that.
Usually a big stage or large sized room. And then
there are all kinds of props that a good folio
artist will have, just shelves and shells of things that
(10:00):
are their go to items that recreate certain sounds. So,
for example, a classic bone breaking sound is like a
stock of celery or something like that. So they're going
to have, oh, this is my bone breaking sound, and
this is my physical punching sound. And it might be
you know, in the old days, they used to use
like a steak, and you know, they would hit the
(10:22):
steak piece of meat. But there's other other things and
other techniques that really great fully people use and they
will have just huge number of these little toys and
props that are kind of their go tos for We
have some, but we're certainly not you know, like the
big boys would have a big stage with.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, I've been in fully stages where where there's way
more props than a prop department to have. I mean,
it's just it's it's all over exactly, everything from lamps
to baseball mits to everything that you can imagine.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It's funny you think that's the prop department of a
studio sacks the fully stage.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, just like we did a film. I think you
saw the film, but there was a character in this
film who wore like a military camo suit and it
was like grassy suit. And we're like, we had to
get every movement that this character made, and like, what
are we going to do for that? And I found
a pom pom from my kids, you know, high school
(11:23):
football game, you know, they were giving out to the parents,
and I'm like, okay, so we get a pom pom
and we sort of push it into our hand and
it sounded just like what you're seeing on the screen.
So sometimes what it takes to create that sound is
not what you think. You know, you can use a
stock of celery or a pom pom or something that
(11:43):
actually matches really well what you see on screen. It's
very artistic and fun.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, it certainly is really like just what you described,
like what would sound like you're seeing is perception, right,
I mean, it's not the reality because you're using a
different It's just a perception.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
That's right right now.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Use we had a session, actually, Jim did a session
with us about the importance of you know, really good, solid,
passionate music. So let's just go jump right to the mix.
So when you're doing a mix.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
You're looking.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I mean often the director's sitting with you. I mean
I sat with you during our mix. Well, I came
in after you did the first run, and then I
came in after and said, okay, let's try this. Try this.
What are you looking for? Are you looking for the
passion and the scene, the excitement? I mean, you know,
when I spoke to our cinematographer and the editor, I
talked about capturing the essence of a scene. Is that
what the mix is all about? What is it?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well? I think so, because our first film together, I
was trying to understand what was important to you as
a director, and clearly it was a dialogue driven film,
and so I knew that. You know, we had these
very kind of long dialogue scenes that didn't some of
them weren't scored. So I was like, oh boy, we're
going to have to really create a mood and a
(12:53):
realism in that dining room scene with the forks and
the plates and that kind of stuff. Right, So I
knew we were going to have our work cut out
for a filling up those scenes because there was no
music to hide behind and so on. But to answer
your question, I'm trying to get in your head as
the director and understand what you're trying to say in
any given scene, or the overall message of the film
(13:17):
or where you want to take it, and then make
decisions based on that, because not everybody's the same, whether
I'm working with a composer or a music person or
a film director. I find it much more efficient if
I can really understand what's important to you, because what's
important to you might not be that important to the
other director that I just worked with. I think our
(13:38):
first spotting session where I was just taking really good
notes of Jeff pointed this out, and so let's really
focus on that. And he told me kind of what
he was going for in this scene. Let's design it
in a way that is going to realize that vision.
So in a mix, in the context of a mix,
I'm really trying to help with the storytelling as much
(14:00):
as I can. And I think that if you make
bad decisions in a mix, it takes people out of
out of the moment. Yeah, it takes the audience out
of the moment and they're thinking, why can't I hear
the dialogue or what was that weird sound? Or why
is the music so loud here or whatever. I just
(14:21):
want to draw the viewer listener into your vision as
the director, not be a distraction. Once I could kind
of get to get it to that point. That's sort
of like I use the analogy of standing a piece
of wood. You know, you're doing various levels of sandpaper.
The first levels are very coarse standing where you're getting
(14:41):
all the burrs and knots out of it, and then
you use a different grade of sandpaper and you do
a little finer finish until you get it down to
that fine tuning. And at that point I want to
just I'm trying to maximize the story in that moment.
It could be an emotional scene. If it's a heartwarming
scene where the music is very epic, and you know,
(15:03):
we'll just push the music and draw you in. If
it's an action scene, it's probably going to be more
sound effects driven. We're going to push whatever we can
to maximize the emotional story or feel in that moment.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
How did you become a sound designer, Like, what what
was your journey?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Well, I would say, I'm you know, I really my
main background is as a as a music producer, a
music mixer. So I started in a studio called Martin
Sound in Alhambra, and I worked my way up from
runner to chief engineer over several years. But we were
doing small orchestras for episodic television. So we were doing
(15:46):
Lost and Seventh Heaven, and we were doing various animated
shows and some HBO movies and it's usually thirty forty
piece orchestra kinds of things. And so I really cut
my teeth as a music engineer and producer, and so
I started, you know, I would have clients who composers
who would hire me to record and mix their musical score,
(16:08):
and I would meet the director of the film and
they'd say, well, would you just mix the film? And
it started as mixing documentaries, and then it kind of
grew into Okay, well we need to dialogue edit this
a bit and clean that up. And so we started
doing dialogue editing my team and I and then I
was working on the Tom and Jerry cartoon. Jib Covell
(16:29):
and I we were teaming up in another composer named
Vivek Madala. We were doing the music and we got
asked to do the sound effects and that was really
where my team sort of cut its teeth in animation.
So we started doing all the animation sound effects. It's
really fun in a hoot, And eventually I started just
mixing those shows and then mixed a few features for
(16:50):
Warner and then it just it kind of grew from there, honestly,
but I came into it from the music side, and
I think one notable story was as a music mixer,
you know, the joke in the music mix was always, oh, gosh,
it's only gonna it's gonna You're gonna be buried under
the dialogue and sound effect, So why why try so
(17:11):
hard to mix the music perfectly, and we would you know,
we were artists, so we were trying to make the music
sound amazing and and then we'd go see it in
the theater or we'd see it on TV and go, man,
those guys, they those blasted you know, rerecording mixers. They
buried our music. How dare they? And it wasn't until
I started doing the re recording mix that I realized,
oh man, all these years I've been cursing their name,
(17:34):
and now I'm one of them, and I'm turning the
music down because I can't do And so that really
changed my perspective once I started doing re record mix
and same with sound design. I would say that I
love working with my team of sound designers and with
a composer, because if you have a good relationship with
(17:57):
the composer, you're really working together. And like after we
did the spotting session with you on the last film,
I immediately called Jim the composer and said, Okay, I'm
going to stay out of your way on this. You
do this and I'll just do some background effects and
things and let's let the music really carry this. I
won't compete with you. And likewise he would call me
(18:17):
and say, what are you thinking for this? And I'd say, Wow,
we could fill it up, and we could really make
it a full sound palette, and maybe you just you
just score it with just Chelli and low strings, and
that way we'll kind of stay out of each other's way.
And I think those conversations really save you a lot
of time and trouble if you're lucky enough to have
(18:38):
that kind of working relationship. But I think it's really
you're on the same team, and ultimately we want to
see the director's vision really be fulfilled, and so we're
trying to find the most creative and efficient ways of getting.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
So can you dispell a myth for me? I mean,
you're you're sitting in your nice soundstage. So I've been
in obviously, that's where we did the mix for our
last film.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I'm actually in my home studio right now.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Oh you are, okay, all right, it looks similar, all right.
So some of these you know, your big sound stage
has a gigantic board, I don't know, like sixty four
channel board or whatever it is. But then you have
the computer right beside it with you know, everything is
digital and it's all so do these boards still get
used like these slider boards. I mean, when would you
use the manual as opposed to digital.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Well, you know our studio, Hunt Recording Studio, which I
had the privilege of designing and building with some partners.
It's really kind of my dream studio, and we could
talk about that later if you want, But we really
built it as a music studio because it's it's a
fairly good sized scoring stage. We could put a forty
piece orchestra in there, yeah, and really high, you know,
(19:50):
twenty something foot ceilings the board. When we did the
string session for your film, you know, we might have
had a dozen microphones out in the room, you know,
one on this violin section and one on that violin section,
and one on the viola section, and one on the
cello section, and then some room mics and some different
mics in different places in the room. So those all
(20:10):
show up on this analog board with all the channels.
That's sort of the front end where the mic pre's
and equalizers and levels get adjusted before it goes into
what we call the box or pro tools in this case,
before it gets recorded and converted to digital. It has
to go through some kind of preamp stage and so
(20:31):
the board is really the front end of that where
the microphones come in and we're able to balance them
and record them properly.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So so people still use these big boards.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
They're not sure? Oh, definitely, yeah, And we used it
in the Folly sessions too, because we might have a
dozen microphones out in the room for Folly and this
mic works really great for this footstep, but in the
next thing we need to have one where the chair
squeaking and we're moving in a chair, or you know,
there's some wrestling, we're gonna use that mic. And so
(21:02):
the board is sort of the interface into the computer
that that we use, and it happens to be just
a really great sounding board that we're fortunate to have.
But it definitely gets used more on the front end
of things than in the mix because the mix gets
done these days almost completely in the box, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And also you have you know, obviously good quality microphones
too to capture all that for sure, bring it in. Okay,
So last question, So let's say somebody wants to go
down the road you're you know, the journey you've taken.
What does that journey look like? What should they do?
Should they train as a sound engineer, musician. I mean,
what what's the right way to go?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Oh that's a really good question. Hmm. I have to
think about that.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Like you have your you know, I worked with some
of your team, right, you know the folio. So are
they looking to become what I call these sound designers
sort of the overall person who manages posts.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So there are various schools in LA and around the
country that have audio engineering degrees, and you know, hopefully
in that classroom environment you're learning the basics of audio.
As technology develops and as home studios proliferate, I've seen
a bit of a shift. I've actually worked with the
(22:19):
US Film School a little bit and USSE as well,
so UCLA and USC. When I'm working with the USC kids,
they are all composers who want to know out how
to sound engineer too, because they almost have to now
they have to record their own music in order to
get their demos made or the budgets are challenging at times,
(22:40):
so they can't afford to hire an engineer like me.
They've got to do it themselves. So to some degree, now,
I think filmmakers film students have to learn some basic
things about audio and micing and sound editing, and they
need to be able to kind of make their own
edits in premiere or final cut and things like that,
(23:02):
and be able to sort of do some things themselves.
And I'm seeing more and more students who might be
a composition major, but they they're pretty well trained in audio.
I'm seeing kind of more universities sort of try to
teach their music students a little bit more about audio
and vice versa. And so the classes that I've spoken
(23:24):
to with UCLA, it's about half directors and half musicians composers,
and those are really interesting because we get to kind
of give a sound engine. I'm sort of like the
middleman between the two.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
That makes sense, though, It makes sense that you would
have half musicians, half film people, half music people.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
It's great, and I think the directors learn a lot
because they're hearing from somebody like me saying, hey, directors,
you really need to pay attention to this, this, and
this right, and composers you need to understand where the
directors are coming from and pay attention to this, this
and this and so that kind of conversation I think
turns out to be pretty valuable for the students.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Nice makes sense makes sense. Well, Dan, I just want
to thank you for, first of all, doing a great
job on my movie.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Obviously, sure it was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
You were there that night for that big premiere screening.
And it's a funny Dan. We had this huge premier screening,
like eight hundred people in this gigantic theater. It was
fantastic and Dan was there and he said, Jeff, I
hope you don't mind, but can I speak to the
sound guys, not you? I want to make sure this
is perfect. And I appreciated that because I didn't know
what to ask them. I mean, it was you know,
it was a beautiful theater, but it was a little
(24:32):
bit antiquated. I mean one of these old, you know,
eighty year old theaters. So the sound system, I don't know.
Was it good? You tell me? I mean to to
me it sounded good.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well. When when I found out the premiere was going
to be in a concert hall, I immediately went, oh, man,
we're in trouble because I just mixed this in five
dot ones around, so I'm gonna have to really review
the stereo mix and maybe make some adjustments so that
it doesn't sound bad in a big music hall. I
was very worried. And so the reason I was worried
(25:04):
was because I mixed another film years and years ago
when we had a big premiere and it was actually
a silent film. I think it was Lon Cheney, old
black and white silent film and it was nothing but music.
We got hired by Turner Classic Movies to score this film.
I went to the premiere and all of my colleagues
were there, and it's really a celebration of the composer
(25:25):
and the music. And so I'm sitting next to, you know,
Bruce Broughton and Elmer Bernstein and all these various Steen
music colleagues that I had great respect for, and they
started the film and it didn't sound very good. In fact,
it sounded kind of bad. And I just spent you know,
five six weeks mixing this film and it was really uncomfortable.
(25:50):
And I came to find out that the projection has
had some kind of Dolby setting on that was really
mucking up the sound. I thought, I am never going
to do this again, Like I will go in and listen.
I have to get there a day early. I'm going
to make sure that if we're going to premiere this
film in front of eight hundred people in San Francisco.
You know, it's got to at least sound pretty good.
(26:11):
And so luckily it worked out well and it was
very successfull.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I appreciate that you were there. You were the first
one there, and you made sure that that guy you know,
turn it on let me hear it a few times,
and so that's great. Yeah, right, well, thank you. Thank
you for taking care of business for my films and
for being a guest on our show. Your insights were
very valuable and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah. No, I appreciate it too, and thanks a lot.
And I would love to, you know, do more with
you and any of your students. Just give us a.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Call, Okay, Thanks Dan, all right, Thanks Jeff. So that's
Dan Blessinger. He is just a fantastic sound engineer slash
sound designer. He really understands how to capture the balance
between music, effects and dialogue and that really elevates the
quality and the entertainment value the film. Do not take
sound for granted. It is so important
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