July 9, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode, Jeff Deverett sits down with Casting Directors Miriam Hoffman and Candice Bernstein to uncover the truth and reality behind assembling the perfect cast for an indie film.
They dive into the nuances of casting—from A-list to B-list talent—and break down the key differences between hiring union versus non-union actors, including the cost implications of each. Miriam and Candice also offer valuable insights into the casting process, sharing what filmmakers should look for when making casting decisions.
They dive into the nuances of casting—from A-list to B-list talent—and break down the key differences between hiring union versus non-union actors, including the cost implications of each. Miriam and Candice also offer valuable insights into the casting process, sharing what filmmakers should look for when making casting decisions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You want to make a great movie, you have to
have great performances from your actors. So how do you
find an actor? How do you know who to hire,
who's good, who isn't. I find the best way is
to get a really good casting director who knows what
they're doing. If you want to be a successful indie filmmaker,
(00:20):
you need to know a lot about not just the
production of movies, but the business. We are going to
tell you the truth and reality of what really happens
in the indie film business. Welcome back everybody. In today's episode,
we are going to talk to two very experienced casting
(00:40):
directors who I have worked with on three films and
who really know the casting world very well, especially as
it pertains to low budget indie films. You're going to
learn a lot about how actors get identified and chosen.
Miriam and Candace, welcome to the show. Thank you so
much for coming on. As I said in the intro,
we've done three movies together and I think you guys
(01:04):
do a great job. I know that you know casting
really well. I'm going to say one of the most
difficult things that I think as a director is to
actually cast, and that's because there's so many good choices.
I mean, that's a good problem to have, but there
are just So we're sitting here in LA and I'm
going to say, this is probably, you know, the hotbed
of talent in the world. This is probably the biggest
(01:26):
talent pool in the world for actors. And there's just
so many good actors. And it kind of breaks my
heart when we do casting because everybody's so darn good.
I mean, you know some aren't, but but you know,
the good ones. There's so many good choices and it's
hard to pick. So when I was do you know,
three films ago, I said, enough's enough this. I don't
know what I'm doing. I really don't. I don't know
(01:48):
where to find these people. And I reached out and
I found you, and you said we can make this
process more enjoyable and better, and you were right. All right,
So let's just start with how did you either of
you can take the question, all right, how did you
get into casting? To start with? Like, why casting?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for also
recognizing casting. That's very thoughtful and sometimes that does not happen.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
People think they can do it all.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And I kind of feel like casting directors are super important.
How I got into casting, I was always doing casting
in the different jobs that I had, finding new and
important talent, whether it be at an agency or in development.
That was sort of my passion. And then I was
able to segue development into casting and got my first
(02:39):
job as a baby assistant on night at the museum.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
But you obviously wanted to be in casting.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I did.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I sort of fell into it, though in a roundabout way.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
As did I. I went to NYU for acting, but
never really wanted to be an actor, and I found
I interned at a casting agency for commercials and I
found my So.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Now you're behind the camera in front of it.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah. How did you guys find each other? And why
are you partners? Or is that a no?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
We found each other. We actually worked at William Morris
in the nonscripted department.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I didn't know this.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Yes, that's how we met. And we always talked about casting,
and at the time we said one day we're going
to have a company together. But at the time it
was way too early. We needed to explore and experience.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
What were you doing at William Morris.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
We were both assistants in the unscripted department, in the
unscripted packaging packaging right when American Idol started Survivor, all
of it. So we were right there, and we.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Put Jeff Probes into Survivor, and we put Ryan Seacrest
into American Idol.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So you left sort of the big budget Hollywood, you know,
dream environment to start your own.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
No, no, there was about fifteen years in between that
or longer, and so we experienced many different things. I
worked at a network in casting, and then at a
digital company and casting head of talent, and then she.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Was I was working first in development, and then I
went over into the casting department and worked for independent
casting directors and did TV and film.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Okay, so what made you decide to launch and get
into the entrepreneurial route of becoming your own company and
your own casting.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well, I had already been doing it solo, and then
there was an opportunity that presented ourselves.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
We were both available, and we decided it's much better
to work with somebody.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
For moral support or for just workloaders everything.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
And we also brought different things to the table, which
meant we could do even more.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Because so she came from unscripted and I came from scripted, right,
So now we do both.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
And at the time there were some strikes COVID all
of that that we were able to do a lot
more in the unscripted department.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And now it's sort of making a switchback over to
scripted as well.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So I want to stay on the world of casting.
But I do want to ask you one question, Candace, Like,
I really don't believe there's anything close to unscripted. I
think that all unscripted is actually scripted. They just call
it unscripted because it's a little more natural and a
little bit, but they still tell everybody what direction to go,
how to do, because unscripted would be too boring. I think,
like even Survivor to me is scripted.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Yes, probably, yes it is. I mean, obviously you're right,
you have to follow U a fella or else it
would go on forever or there wouldn't be anything. But
I think in the way beginning, when people were really
real and did not know what was going on, that
they were gonna, you know, they wanted to share their
lives because somebody plucked them out of the middle of nowhere.
I think it was a different time. Now, yes, clearly
(05:49):
everybody knows.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
That's what I believe.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
What you you know you want to do it for
a reason, for a hope of becoming female.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But anyways, I don't want to get it. I don't
want to digress, get to digress and get distracted with that.
Let's go into casting. So the reason I think a
casting director. I would recommend for all low budget Indy
producers to use a casting director. Here's the reason. And
you told me this, Miriam, years ago. You said that
I can cut to the chase quicker than you can.
You deal with these actors every day in an inside.
(06:17):
You know them, you know who they are. Like me,
I would have to do a casting call. And I
did this like before I started using casting rics. I'd
do a casting call. I'd get hundreds of people, sometimes
thousands if it was dancers and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Very overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
You don't have it takes hours and days and months
to go through it all. I mean, you get these headshots, like,
how do you know who's good who isn't good? You
said to me, I've seen these people audition one hundred times.
Give me your script. I'm gonna do a script breakdown.
I'm gonna do a character breakdown which you'd do, and
that's how it starts. And then you say, I already
know who's gonna Like you said, I know who's gonna
(06:53):
be in these films. I already know which characters you're
gonna want to hire, which actors, And you're right, So like,
just explain, like how often do you see the same
people over and over and you get to know them? Right?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, there's you definitely get to know a lot of them.
I mean, obviously there are gonna be people that pop
out and I'm like, oh, we're like, wow, I never
even thought of that person. Haven't seen that person. That's
a new person. And that's exciting too. It's not that
I when I said that to you, it wasn't necessarily
that I know exactly who you're going to hire. I
know what you're looking for, right I understand what you're
(07:27):
looking for and what your vision is because we had
long conversations about it. So I was able to tailor,
you know, the audition process to a bunch of people
that I knew you were going to like. And then
you throw in some like surprises, because there's always like
you never know, like maybe today you were looking for
something you might just be surprised by.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The post correct the odd the odd time comes you know,
comes it from left field and you didn't expect it
and right, and that actually works out. But how does
it start? Like, can you yetness? Maybe tell us about
this sort of the breakdown of the characters and stuff
like that, right.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
So you know, we'll work with writer, director, producer get
the perfect you know, the right breakdown for each character.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
You do that though you read the script.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
We read the script, but we also like inputs sometimes
from if you want to tell us exactly what you're
looking for, because maybe we see a different vision or
this and that. You know, we'll share our breakdown sometimes
with you and then you can tweet adjust it and
then we post them on different sites and we'll also
reach out to depending on what we're looking at you
(08:30):
sees if we you know, feel that's a good idea too,
But we we want to really do it wide because
you never know who you're going to get. Yeah, because
you never know, you can find that diamond in the
rough that you would have never thought could do this role.
And it's just I mean, that's wonderful when that happened.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, that's new emerging talent all the time.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
All the time.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
All the time. People come out of the what works
and decide they want to act or.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Okay, So here's the biggest question that all indie filmmakers
have to deal with and struggle with. Did they go
SAGER non SAG So SAG Screen Actors Guild and that's
the union or non SAG. Now I'm going to say
before you answer this is I think SAG has done
a really good job at making their union. You know,
people affordable at various budget levels because they have, you know,
(09:16):
the different breakdowns, modern low budget, all this kind of stuff,
so it's it's affordable to use SAG actors. But then
of course you have all the twenty percent bump ups
and all this kind of stuff, So you got to
take that into consideration. But you know a lot of
people say, oh, you want good actors, they have to
be SAG, and I say, I don't know. It hasn't
necessarily been my experience. I agree that there's a lot
(09:36):
of good actors in SAG, but there's a lot of
good actors in non SAG. So what you're feeling SAG non.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
SAG, I agree.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I think you can find some very interesting talent non sag.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Because because you know, especially lately since post pandemic and
post strike and all this kind of stuff, jobs are
harder to come by. What's that mid tier level that
we were talking about.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
For the FI Court five courts too, you can get
to their unions so they can just basically they're in
the union, but they didn't make enough to qualify at
a certain level, so then they can actually work as
a non union actors and not penal for any consequences,
which I mean is great for people who want to
(10:18):
produce the movie non union and have union and have
union actors, because sometimes, I mean that can help a
non union film sometimes. But there's also people, as you said,
that are not yet in the union and are really
great and don't get the chance to be seen because
a lot of other movies won't take the chance on
(10:39):
non union actors.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So what does it take to get into the union?
They have to have a certain amount of acting hours
or something, or.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Being taft heart lead in is another way where the
production signs off on it.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
If you're like the only person that is perfect for
this role that is union, but your non union, then
you can get taft heart lead in or A.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I just want to dispel this myth that it's affordable
to you SAG actors. I can tell you that from experience,
because of what SAG has done with the levels. So
I don't think that should be the decision criteria. It
should be based on talent and the right fit for
the movie. Obviously, I've gone SAG and non SAG, and
you know we've had this discussion many times. To me,
(11:21):
it's just about talent and meer and one day you
said to me, here's the concept, Jeff. I'll find you
the right talent, but pay them the right number. And
you've often said the SAG number is actually the right number.
So even when we've gone non SAG, I've paid the
SAG rates, which is I think the right thing to
do as long as we can afford it.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah. Absolutely, So I'm not.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Looking for necessarily a bargain on the talent, but I
don't want to preclude non SAG talent just because they're
not in the union. I want the right characters, but
I'm willing to pay that rate. I got to tell you,
I'm not crazy about paying the twenty percent, you know,
bump ups and all this kind of stuff. But you know,
but I think fair is the right word. Just pay
fairly and you're gonna get, you know, good performances. Okay.
(12:02):
So here's the big thing for me, and this is
why I use you. How do you like? It breaks
my heart going to casting sessions. All these great talented
people come in, young, old, everything, and I look at
them and you know, last time we cast, remember I said,
how do you decide? Like? I mean, okay, one or
two weren't great. Let me explain to the audience what
(12:24):
we do. So I basically say to you, you guys,
do your reach out and you you know, get the
headshots and do what you do. So you do round one.
I call it round one, which is kind of going
through the field and figuring out with the recorded sessions.
Can you explain what sort of round one is?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Basically, we do the breakdown and then we ask actors
to self tape. Currently self taping is still a big thing,
so they make it since doing the scenes that we
picked out, and then send us the self tapes. And
then we go through the self tapes Candice and I
and we figure out who seems good and appropriate for
(13:01):
the role and that we think you're gonna like and
we send over a bunch probably, so.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
That's stage two. Let's just finish stage one, yea. So on.
So let's say on a lead character, right, a lead role,
big role, how many self tapes would you get submitted
to you put a limit on it?
Speaker 4 (13:17):
No, no, never, because you never know who you're going
to exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
But you could get hundreds.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yes, we do, and we go job and we go
through the hundreds.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And that is why you use you, because I don't
have the patience of the time to go.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Down exactly why you should use a casting direct totally,
anyone a casting director. There's a reason why we exist.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
That alone.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Even the pictures like just going through headshops, pius.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Who you want to do? That's self taping.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
So some people enjoy it more than I do. I
actually don't like that proces. It's just so much work.
And there's the criteria is so nebulous, like I can't
say this is better than this. I don't even know
what to look for, honestly. So you could go you
go through hundreds of self tapes and you narrow it
down and I often say to you, I only want
to see the top ten. Yes, that's usually what I say.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Usually we give you a little more.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Okay, give a little more, I never know. Okay. So
stage two is, let's say top ten, we're going to
do a live audition, call back, a callback.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
A callback chemistry read.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
All right, so let's talk about that. What's that?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
So a callback chemistry read is usually in person. It
can also be on zoom with you. We actually did
it in person, which I love. And we have them
come in and read the scene and then you direct
them and change them and give them tweaks to how
you want to see the performance. And then we'll bring
in another actor to do a scene with them to
(14:36):
see how they work well off of one another.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
So I call that the mix and match. Yes, the
mix and match, which gets a little confusing. Remembory. We
had a lot of scenes going with a lot of
people last time we did this, and can we try
this one with this person? And this because a lot
of it's chemistry, for sure, like do these two look
good together? They feel good and you can feel that
for sure. Okay, But still at the end of like
I remember that day we cast, you know, for one
(15:01):
of the movies, and it was we had some really
good choices, and it kind of broke my heart that
we had to just choose one for you know, that
character role, because ten other ones were just almost as good.
But there's only one role. And you guys, doesn't break
your hearts, no.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Because I also think, you know what, we're going to
remember them for something else, or you're going to remember
them for your next movie. I really like that one person,
and sure enough, we'll bring in that one person that
you were thinking about that we didn't hire.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Well, we often do that for the supporting roles, like
when we're going we start with the lead roles, and
then you say to me, hey, and remember that person
you liked for the lead, we should consider her for
this supporting role.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
But I'm even saying like, if they didn't get any I.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Know, then the next movie you never know.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
And we you know, if we didn't know these people,
we got introduced to them in person and we will
remember them as well.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah. So here's other things that you guys have done.
And I don't even know if you knew you did
it all? Right, So you what you did a Candice,
You said to me, we were sitting in that cast,
like in that callback, right, and I was trying to
take notes and understand it. You know, it's the lots
coming at you in a short period. And then you
said that person didn't take your direction well, And I
(16:10):
said really, I said, because you're standing behind a camera
and you're watching them act like I'm kind of looking
at them. And you say, yeah, no, no, you gave
direction and she she just completely ignored it. And I said,
I didn't even notice that, and you said yeah, because
you're not looking at that. You're kind of looking at
the lines and the chemistry of the two people. But
you said that, you said this, I know your style, Jeff,
(16:32):
and she's not going to be able to work with
you the way you want to work. And I thought, okay,
like you're probably right, but I didn't even notice, right
because of your second set of eyes and you're looking
at different stuff. And you've seen so many of these callbacks, remember,
like I come in, I do this once a year.
You do it, you know, once a week, so you
(16:53):
just kind of know what to look for. You have
a better sensitivity to little things, these little tweaks and
stuff like that. Now I want to ask you something
and you don't even have to answer, honestly, but the audience,
the actors who are listening to this are going to
want to know do you have biases, like are there
people you like you don't like? Or is it just
completely neutral? What's going to be good for the part?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Neutral? I'll let you in.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
No, I agree with neutral. I don't have I want
the best possible outcome for you, you know, and the project.
I don't have bias. I don't think there.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Were times there were actors we know who they are.
There's certain characters who came in and they weren't necessarily
the most experienced of the actors or something, but you said,
there's just something, there's a little chemistry here or something
that's going on that just might fit right. You know.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
That's not bias though, it's not bias, Okay, it's that's
just yeah, there's some there's a sparkle there, there's something there.
And I definitely think even in our first film that
we worked there were somebody that I will remain nameless.
Actually there were two, I think, and I was like,
this is your person, this is your and I we
had went round and round about.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
It and it worked out. It worked great, It worked
out fantastic and was the person. Yeah, but it could
have gone either way. You know, I've had a couple
actors that maybe weren't the best choice, but you don't know,
generally speak, I'm gonna say most of the actors generally
work out just you know, did something bring a little
different chemistry or whatever the case might be.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
It happens.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
But I think the real value that casting directors bring
is to just manage the amount of work. I mean,
you're doing like this big first round outreach. I mean,
what director has the time to go through a couple
of hundred head shots or a couple hundred self tapes.
I know directors who actually like doing this. I frankly don't.
(18:44):
I don't like doing it because it's deciding between two
fine wines, you know, which one is better. I mean,
it's just a personal opinion or a flavor at the time,
and they both could be good. But you take that,
you know, out of the equation. You know, one might say, oh,
you know, there's fifty other people who you didn't call back,
who should have been called back. Who knows? Who knows?
(19:06):
You never know? Now is the only reason that people
don't use a casting director at low budget films is
because they think they can't afford it. What other reason would.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
They possibly that could be one of them.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Possibly, And I also think control too. People like to
have control over every aspect of their project. But having
a casting director is not giving up No, it's just
another reason. I think that might be psychological that people
think that they're giving up control, or maybe they won't
see everybody, or they might, But I think a casting director,
(19:37):
you can work with the person who hires you in
whatever way they want. If they want hands on from
the beginning and see every headshot that comes into we're
willing to do as much, give every you know, whoever
they want, as much leeway to be involved, or if
they have so much on their plate they'd rather, you know,
give us the opportunity to, you know, show what we
(19:58):
can bring to the table.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
That's great too, But I do think it's probably most
of it at this point is budget.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, so I would say that it's almost illogical not
to use a casting director. Honestly, you should budget for that.
And I'm not saying because you're sitting here, it's just
the amount of work and effort and management that you
do to help decipher this very tricky process is super valuable.
And I think the value proposition is there. It's very
(20:26):
clear to me that it is. And again, you know,
some people think, Okay, if something's going to have to give,
I'm going to give on that. And I don't want
to give on my music or my script or something
like that. But amongst the most important components of your
movies are your actors, right.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Right at the town.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
You've got to get that right. I mean, what's the
point in having nice equipment and nice locations and if
you don't have good performances. So you've got to get
that right. And I think that you guys serve an
amazing purpose there. I want to just switch gears and
I want to look at it from the point of
view of an actor. All right, So I've been talking,
you know, as a point of view director, producer, right,
So I think there's a lot of value there. What
(21:00):
advice would you give actors in super competitive this industry?
You know, every industry is, but acting, Oh my god,
that's ridiculously competitive. And you know, the difference sometimes is
a look, a smile of this or that. That's all
just a tiny little thing, right. I kind of like
say in sports, and I used to coach hockey right.
Everybody was a good player. Everybody. The difference was if
(21:22):
a scout was there that day and you happened to
score the goal on the right day, at the right moment,
you your career elevates, and there were fifty other people
who are just as good, maybe better than you. You
just had that moment. So what advice would you give
to a young aspiring actor or even an older actor
on how to break through? Give yourself, you know, a chance,
or there are tips that might you know, I would say,
(21:44):
like get a good agent or something like that that helps.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
But I also think there are actors out there who
are not represented, who are able to get jobs, and
you know, they get there themselves seen, So that's important.
I think I'm a big believer of making strong choices,
like on your self tape, make a decision and stick
with that, and make that strong choice.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So choose sort of the way you're going to portray
the character and go with it, and if it's.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Wrong, then they'll correct you, or if.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
They'll say that it's not the right person.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Correct, but you made a strong choice and that's important
versus just being sort of you know, wishy washy through it,
then you're not very memorable. I mean you you are
your own brand, so you need to know yourself and
be able to present yourself.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Good advice, what would you say?
Speaker 4 (22:30):
And I also think these days there is social media,
there is so many ways that you can get yourself
out there and present yourself so people maybe see you
in whatever aspect. But also like go to classes, do
you know, apply an audition as much as you can
submit yourself, you know, see as many opportunities as you can,
(22:51):
and make your own opportunities to these days, like there's
just so much available these days that there wasn't before,
no matter what age you are. You know, read a
scene with a partner and film it and put it up,
or you know, write something for you, write something yourself.
I mean that it's just right at your fingertips. We
can all just do whatever we want and put it
(23:12):
out there. But like, if you really believe in yourself,
do as much as you can. Network.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
But these are all sort of I mean everybody says
all this and you say put it out there? What
is exactly does that mean? Put it out there? Like
on social media, you.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Can put it out on social media, you can put
it up on like the websites like breakdown or casting
networks like it depends on what the median is that
you write.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Okay, so I'm going to switch gears now for a
second and we're going to talk sort of distribution. So
distributors will always tell you and I come from that world,
as you know, get recognizable talent, I mean, get a
liss talent if you can. Obviously it helps sell the movie,
of course it does. I mean, who doesn't want a
list talent in their movie? Obviously you do. It's a
value proposition. Is the price worth what the revenue is
(23:54):
going to be? That's I look at it that way, right,
So often you don't know the answer, and you're taking
a huge risk paying bigger money for recognizable talent. I'm
gonna say, for the most part, recognizable talent is good talent. Okay,
they know how to act, obviously, But the reason you
could pay so much is because they're recognizable. Because a
lot of people say who's in it? It's often not affordable.
(24:14):
But once in a while people say, I want to
take a shot, all right, and and they go with
the do you have like a B plus a minus?
You know, person, So what is B plus A. MI, Like,
what does that mean like somebody who's done something and
isn't doing it anymore?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
No, I think it's uh, that could be one hop
It could be that they're they're not the lead of things,
whether it be like a movie or a TV show,
so they're like second in line.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
M M.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
That also plays a factor, and it's a little less
than the ad.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
But I also think it's international too, right, if that's
what you're like international distribution, It depends what your A
and B where.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
You're planning to try to distribute this this film, like
international A is different than USA sometimes.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Okay, just so you.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Like domestic that yeah, yeah, let's go with domestic, all right?
Just okay? So who would be? Give me an example
of somebody who would be? And again, price points, I mean,
chances are in an indie, low budget indie film, you're
not getting eight you're not getting it. You're not getting
you just can't afford them. And by the way, even
if you could, they don't want to do it right
because they want the whole production to be elevated. Unless
(25:29):
they wrote the script or they are directing it and
it's their baby. That's different. Then it's their project. But
I'm not talking about that situation. I'm talking about you
wrote it, it's your script, it's your you're directing it.
Your budget's half a million, and they don't want to
work at that level, even though they love your script.
They don't want to take a chance that their reputation
is going to be tainted by a low budget indie
film with a first time director. Probably, right, Okay, faris fair.
(25:53):
I understand that. But who would take the chance and
how much do we have to pay them to take
the chance.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
There's no set magic number, obviously. I think it depends
on a lot of things. I mean, so somebody you
could get is like a TV actor who might be
on hiatus.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
And I also think it matters if you want them
for a day right, you want them for a one
day shoot. That's different than wanting them to be the
lead of the movie, correct, Right, So you have more
of a chance possibly with all these other factors, that
you could possibly get a known actor for a day player.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Okay, but we I mean there was a time when
I said I would like You said, why don't we
try for this?
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
I said, no, what do you mean, We're never going
to get that person.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
You never know, I said, I never know.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Maybe there's a moment they like the script, they need
a little extra cast.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
If they really like the script, it's like a you know,
all the world's collide, so great script. They haven't been
working and you know they have some time off. Why not?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I mean, you never know.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Correct, So it doesn't hurt to try, correct.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
I mean it's simple. You can get a quick answer.
Somebody can read it, and if there are people pass
on their behalf or whatever, so you try it.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
It's but we're not talking player prey. I mean, you
know play what's it called player pay payer play deals
and where you have to put money up for them
to read and all that, And we're talking about people
who if they like it, we're going to make a
decent offer, and you know they're gonna just going to say,
you know, this is the range, like I don't want
to waste my client's time. Can they afford to pay this?
And you say yes, but you know this is what
they can afford to pay. So I think I agree
(27:28):
with you. It's worth a try. But is it delusional
to like how often does it happen? Realistically? Like say
half million dollar indie features trying to get you know
what I'm going to call a B plus A minus.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
You know, I think it's possible, and I certainly think.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Now we're talking about fifty thousand for a day.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
I don't, I can't.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I know, it's all negotiable.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I know that, but I think.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
But people want to know. Like this series is called
Truth and Reality, we want to know.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Listen.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
The reality is it's there's too many factors. Are going
to give you a number. You're looking for a number.
And I think that first of all, an A person
is different than a B plus person.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I know, but I'm talking B plus a minus, right,
somebody who had the moment they were in the line
like they were an A actor.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
How many days?
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I mean, well, that's what I'm saying. I think it
would have to be like one day thing to even
be enticing. But I don't know. It has to be
so many. The stars have to align right, and so
it's hard to say. I'm a bit more pessimistic than
I'm like, but just tell them the truth, give them
the truth.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
But you never know because.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Pessimist because of experience, because you've tried and they haven't
been receptive.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
And maybe in life. I'm pair I had to say,
because I mean, listen, people pass all the time. That's
part of it.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
You need to.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
But if you don't try, you never know because, as
you say, you each person or each script, every circumstance.
If it's being shot in their backyard, you know, that's
more enticing too. It all, there's so many very aariables
before we can say yes, this is like, don't waste
your time or do it. I mean the likelihood yes,
probably won't happen, but you never know.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Right, I never say, I mean unless unless it's like
really ridiculous, then I would say to you know, but again,
you hired me, and I'm happy to go and try
because you never know.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I agree. I agree, it's you know, it's worth a try. Yeah, yeah,
And I'm going to say that you have a better
chance at giving it a try being a casting director
than me as the director was exactly. And the reason
is I'm gonna explain this to the audience is because
agents really don't want to waste their time with me.
They know that you're more serious, you're in the business.
You're not gonna waste their time. You're going to do
(29:43):
it super professionally the right way quickly. You're gonna get
them what they need quickly, and it's not going to
be oh, this whole song and dance about how passionate
you are about your movie and all this kind of stuff.
They kind of know that already. You're going to just
cut to the chase. We got fifty thousand and we
can spend if you're clients interested in two days, and
this is the script. Can we do this or not?
As it even more checking, they might say, who's the director?
(30:05):
They might say, ask a couple of questions, but you're
gonna ask them real quickly.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The reps are going to believe that it's a more
legitimate project.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Because it is more legitimate generally. Yes, so some directors
get involved. But I find that directors get a little
too overpassionate and get a little too wordy and get
a little too involved emotionally, and it's like, oh, you're
gonna love this project. It's the greatest thing ever. We've
heard that every single time. Obviously, you love your project,
it's your project. You'll handle it in a very professional
business way. So I think you'll actually have a better
(30:34):
chance at landing that deal. Then I would directly not
to mention. I wouldn't even know who to go to.
I wouldn't know how to get to them. They're not
going to necessarily return my call as quickly because they're
not going to believe it. It's not going to be
as legitimate.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
I mean, we deal with that too sometimes when you know,
we're meeting on possible new projects and we find out that,
you know, people already reached out to agents managers without
a casting director, and sometimes that, I'm it hurts their
project too, because they keep reaching out and getting people passing,
and if you're not doing it the right ways, they just.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Don't believe it's credible.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It takes credibility away from But also Miriam, I remember
the first time we did this, I said, hey, maybe
we should go for sort of a name actor in
this role was the professor role?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yes, right?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And you said who do you think? And I said,
I don't know who do you think? And you said,
you can listed ten people off, like, here's like ten
people who would be appropriate for the role, who are
at the level that we could probably afford. I could
have never done that, and then we, you know, we
narrow it down to five or whatever. Went after them.
We didn't end up getting them, but we gave it
a shot, and actually people took your call and receptive
(31:43):
to the idea. Yep, some people like the party just
timing wasn't right or whatever. I think it was more
legitimate the way. Well, first of all, from a director's
point of view and producer, you know, I wouldn't even
have known. I could have maybe named two or three
people on that list. You named ten immediately just like that.
You probably could have named twenty five of them because
you just know who they are. It's your world. You
(32:03):
travel in that in those circles. You even said to me, oh,
that one's not going to be available. They're shooting this movie,
and you know this one might be there looking for
work or they have auditioned for something else. Like you
know that you have that inside scoop because you live
and work in that, in those circles, whereas I would
never know any of that kind of stuff. So, and
I'm not trying to pitch you or anything like that.
(32:23):
I'm just saying the truth of what really goes on.
So the value there is so important because you land
somebody like that, it's worth the price of admission. Ten
times over. Yes, So okay, what are the things would
you say that indie producer directors should sort of be
cogniz of in the whole world of casting, because I
(32:43):
really appreciate the value that a casting director brings to
the table. But I don't think a lot of people do.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I think shooting schedule, and I'll tell you why, because
I think you can this is your passion project. Isn't
necessarily the actor's passion project, but you hope that it's
going to be. They're going to be passionate about it.
But if you're able to you know, squish the schedule
together and make it as tight as possible, you're more
(33:10):
likely to be able to get some bigger names, and
they're more likely to do it because they're not like
on a day and then you know, hanging out for
five days.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, you've said that to me before, if we can
contain it to these three days, and you've also said
if we can continue to this location too. That's true
because they don't want to go be running around.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
You know, it's also expensive when you shoot out of
the area because then you're also looking into you know,
lodging and flights and like all of the travel and
the per diem.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Okay, so let's get into that for a second. So
the other value that you really provide is you do
the sort of the deal memo. I mean you engage
once we say hey, let's go with that. You'll do
the first engagement, which is a deal memo, and you'll
coach me through per deems and we should offer this
And I mean you're working on my behalf. But your
massaging is so that the actor feels good about it
(34:01):
and is going to be comfortable.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
And that the agent feels comfortable.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yes, of course, of course that's important.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, and an agent, agent and manager.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Agent, manager, I mean that's the middleman they need to
feel good. Yeah, often the actors not even involved exactly.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
They have a manager agent.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
What is the difference between a manager and an agent, Candice, Well.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
A manager can produce too, but that's agent can only
take a certain amount of I don't know, is it
ten percent?
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Still, they're limited on their commissaire.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Limited on their commission really?
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, so what does anybody what do they just all
call themselves managers?
Speaker 4 (34:35):
No, because it's some managers.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I think you have to have a license to make
a deal.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Oh, it's regulated. I didn't even know this. Sorry for
those agent managers who are losing this, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, but there are managers who have who do have
the license that can make the deal.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So what would a manager do that an agent wouldn't like?
What kind of.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Things manager manages the day to day also, and it
is really like about fostering the client it's career.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
And their jectory and you know what you're going to.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Where's an agent would only look for work like try
to reach out and see what people are looking for.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
I mean, I think they also hope that their client
will grow and become you know, a talent and all
of that stuff too.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
But usually, like agencies are much bigger than a small
management company, and a small manager can have less clients
than an agent. Usually this is just usually right, so
they're able to you know, have a more day to
day conversation with the clients.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, as long as the clients are working regularly, so
there's money.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
But even if they weren't, they still have the day
to day discussion.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
And there are some people who just have managers and
don't have agents, and there's some people who have agents and managers.
I mean, I think it depends how busy you are too.
Why are you going to give all your money away? Right?
Nothing of nothing is nothing?
Speaker 1 (35:52):
But so you primarily actually probably deal with managers and agents, right,
because the talent comes in, they do the audition, they
do the callback, and then but for the most part,
all the deals are done with the managers and agents.
Oh yeah, So in that world, what do you look for?
I mean, you know you're going to get what you get, right,
this actor is represented by this person, You're going to
deal with them. I mean that's another value. Add I
(36:15):
frankly can't stand dealing with managers and agents. It's just
such a put off for me. So it's one step remove.
And you know, I'm a lawyer by trade. It's not
like I'm worried about negotiations or anything like that. I
just I would rather a third party, you who know
what you're doing, non emotional, just say here's the deal,
here's what we're Because I someting I say to you,
(36:35):
that's it. That's all I got, Take it or leave it.
And you know, you'll sometimes push me a little bit
and say, well can you throw a little bit more
infrastrate travel or a little per diem here or something
like that that could make the difference.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
And that helps because you're massaging the deal to make
it work. Now, you are working for me. I hired
you and you're representing me, but you know that I
want the person. You know that it's going to be
good for the film, so you're going to massage it
a little bit. So it's never occurred to me that
you're actually working for them and trying to their best way.
When you say we need a little bit more, it's
(37:08):
because you want the deal to be made, not because
you want.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
To make And it's not outrageous.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
No, it's never outrageous because you know kind of what
you know the worth is. Yeah, all right, So what
do you look for in a client other than the
right fee? The right fee, the right thing is important.
You're you know, you do this for a living.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
I think if the product, if the script is good,
you know, if there's something there that's important too, because
if it's a bad script, you're going to struggle to
get people to you know, the right actors, good quality
actors to sign on to.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Really and also appreciation goes a long way, and they
and that they value your opinion. And things like that,
like that's that's great to hear it, But how do
you know, well, you have a conversation, you know you're having.
We we have to interview to get the job, so we,
you know, interview, and if we feel like we're not jiving,
(38:03):
then it won't be very successful. I mean, it could
be successful, but most likely it's going to be a
little hard.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
But when I first met you, Miriam, because I met
you before Canvas, Yes, I think I met five casting directors,
I came up, I did an LA trip, and I
just kind of did the rounds.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
I thought I had it all.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
No, the chemistry is right, it felt, you said. I
can't remember exactly, but you said a couple of things
to me that sort of made me feel like you're
going to be the right fit for me. And I'm
always skeptical at the whole Hollywood, you know, I think
it's I think really what captured sort of my interest
was that you understood the indie thing and it wasn't delusional.
You're not throwing around the big Hollywood budget talk, name
(38:47):
name dropping, all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Because why set your sights on like something that's totally a.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Lot of people look at a lot of directors throw
do the name dropping thing. Oh, I'm thinking, you know,
we're going to get too for this. We're gonna get this,
We're gonna get No, you're not, like, can you stop that,
You're just wasting everybody's time. Yes, it's delusional, yes, okay,
but people.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
Do it right, and sometimes people hire those casting directors
who say, oh, we can get them, and guess what
happens they don't get them. You wasted your.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Time and your money.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Then you're back to square one again.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah. I think that I was attracted the fact that
you weren't name dropping, you weren't thrown around the big
Hollywood numbers, because I don't. I don't operate that way
at all. Like I'm maybe too not delusional, maybe I'm
too jaded right to the point where I think, Okay,
there's no point even having this conversation because we're not
going to get them. And you said, no, no, let's
(39:40):
give it a shot.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
I mean, if you have the time, try, but let's
you know, we at some point you have to just say,
all right, well we're not going to get these crazy names.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
And maybe not every role too, right, that's true. Figure
out who you want to try to which cameo?
Speaker 1 (39:55):
What's going on in the indie film business these days?
I mean it's I you know, I'll be see that's
my business. You know. I made two movies last year.
You cast them both. I know how tough it is.
I do the financing, I do the distribution. I know
this business inside note and I'm going to tell you
this is not an easy business. What do you guys
see it's.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Very slow right now. And I know that a lot
of people want to work and haven't been working. Then
that goes for everybody on like that goes for actors,
that goes.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
For every crew people everything.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Well, remember, I don't.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Know whether it's easier to shoot outside of Los Angeles or.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
You cast outside of LA.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
I mean, yeah we did.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
We all of your films are outside of LA. But
I meant like outside of California, right, tax breaks and
things like.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
That, outside of the country.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Actusolutely, that's what a lot of people are doing right now.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
And I wasn't talking just LA. I'm talking the indie
film business, right I'm not talking just the LA indie
film business. It's the indifilm business in LA. It's tricky, tricky, tricky. Yes,
it's a little more expensive to shoot here. There are
no financial incentives. Millionaire.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
They're trying to work on that, but yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
But they've been trying for years. It hasn't happened. I've
been involved in trying that. I've been very involved in that.
Like I wrote an Assembly bill, that's how involved I was. Yeah,
So what do you see as the future on the
indie side. I still believe that there always will be
that business.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
I think there will always be that business because there's
always that passion that people have to make a film
and you know, write it, do it down and dirty.
I mean, you can do it. There are ways to
do it. You find a way to do it no
matter what. I mean, people come together and also people
who are passionate about being in this business and there
is no business to be had, you know, or whatever
(41:40):
moment you figure it out, you give up certain things
to try to make it work.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
I think there's always going to be storytelling in.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Art, for sure, and I think indie storytelling is amazing
because it just delves into areas.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
That it can be more honest. It doesn't have to
be as commercially you know, I mean it should be
and if you want to be successful, want to entertain
an audience interesting stories.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
I was going to say, I mean, I hate to
bring it up, but AI, do you bring that into
your films to make it a little.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Less Yeah, So that's that's a huge subject right now.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
I know, I know that's a separate is.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
But I'm going to turn it around and say, what
about AI actors?
Speaker 4 (42:16):
I understand.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I mean I've seen some influencers that are unbelievable and
have gigantic followings. They're not even real, they're robots. I mean,
there's just images. I mean, that's going to happen in acting.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
AI is going to touch on every like field.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
So you know we're on the cusp of it right now.
But it's going to happen.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
Non existing Bye, nice meeting you.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
No, No, but he knows who knows what opportunities that
will bring or you know what directions it'll change, right,
and it could help.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
I don't know, it's.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Going to be a big change. I often talk to
my kids who are involved in AI, like in a
big way. Often talk to my students also. You know,
there's like I teach, you know, two universities and the
question is this is AI enhanced education or detract from it?
I guess it's good for them to submit their You know,
everybody says, going to use AO to grade your papers, Well,
why shouldn't I You use ADA write your papers. Okay, anyway,
(43:13):
we'll see the world's ever changing. But you know what,
look at every industry evolves. It's all constantly. The film
businesses evolved, right, I mean, look at streaming changed everything. Hey,
I was going to change everything. You know, you go
with the flow, right, and we see what happens. So
it'll be it'll be interesting.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
But I mean, you can shoot something with your your camera,
your your phone, phone, you can shoot a movie with
your phone. You can do it.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
You.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
I mean, there's no reason to give up now. I mean,
when there is a will, there's a way.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
I'm a big champion and believer in storytelling and low
budget indie filmmaking. At the end of the day, it's
about one thing. Talent talent and acting talent, and writing
talent and directing talent and just storytelling. If you got
the talent, the second component is getting it out there
to people so that they can see your talent. That's
the tricky part that is the real that's called distribution.
(44:01):
That and marketing, that is the tricky part. So I
spent a lot of time, you know, talking to any
filmmakers about that. But people have talent, you know, they're
still going to tell great stories. And people who don't
have talent, you're still going to try to tell great stories.
So that's the way it's always going to be. Because
it's it is a dream quasi delusional business. Everybody's got this,
(44:22):
you know, this vision that they want to make come true,
and you got to give a shot. It's kind of
like what you said, Hey, let's give it a shot.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
It may work, it may not.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
It may work, it may not. You got to give
it a shot. Sorry, there's one other thing I forgot
to ask you about. We talked about it with my
production manager. You don't do background casting. You do main
sort of actor casting.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
We have done background, but usually we only do the
people who speak.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, so there's a difference for those people who are
listening this lead speaking roles are done differently than the background.
People don't speak, just show up in the background. There's
different casting directors in different sort of channels that you
go through to find people who just want to walk
in the background. By the way, I use casting directors
for both.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Yeah, so I used well you do, yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
And you need a casting director for background because background
people it's a lot of moving parts, a lot of
moving parts. Some of them just don't show up.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
So them don't show up.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
You need somebody.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
You need somebody who's on call twenty four to seven
to be like, oh my gosh, Jeff, you lost ten
of your background.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
Here are ten more.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah. That is the secret to background casting is just
make sure that.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
I mean you have backup of backs.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yeah, no, no, And that's literally what they do. Well.
They just have a huge database and they just keep
calling people and fill the holes. You know, you try
to get the right profile or whatever, but just fill
the gaps. Yeah. So it's probably not as fun, no it.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
I mean some of them know.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
It's it's time consuming and it's where you want to
put your and.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
We enjoy working with actors and you know that is
our sort of love and passion.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Any last words and terms of advice for director producers,
and it's kind of your time to pitch, say, I mean,
I think we've already pitched you enough.
Speaker 4 (46:17):
Yes, Hoffenberg no, I'm kidding.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
I just think it's it's nice when people value casting
directors and value what they bring to the table. So
I think that's important to get the word out, and
I think you are getting the word out, so that's nice, right.
Speaker 4 (46:33):
I think that's true. It's just as important as a producer, director, writer.
That is one other very important aspect in making your
film complete.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, Well, it was great to have
you on the show. Thank you for your insights. I
appreciate it, and more importantly, thank you for doing good
job on all my Moviesay, you will be on the
next one. I'm not sure what it is or when
it is, but it's coming.
Speaker 4 (46:53):
Yay.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
We love it. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Okay, thanks a lot.
You want to make a great movie, you have to
have great performances from your actors. So how do you
find an actor? How do you know who to hire,
who's good, who isn't. I find the best way is
to get a really good casting director who knows what
they're doing. If you want to be a successful indie filmmaker,
(00:20):
you need to know a lot about not just the
production of movies, but the business. We are going to
tell you the truth and reality of what really happens
in the indie film business. Welcome back everybody. In today's episode,
we are going to talk to two very experienced casting
(00:40):
directors who I have worked with on three films and
who really know the casting world very well, especially as
it pertains to low budget indie films. You're going to
learn a lot about how actors get identified and chosen.
Miriam and Candace, welcome to the show. Thank you so
much for coming on. As I said in the intro,
we've done three movies together and I think you guys
(01:04):
do a great job. I know that you know casting
really well. I'm going to say one of the most
difficult things that I think as a director is to
actually cast, and that's because there's so many good choices.
I mean, that's a good problem to have, but there
are just So we're sitting here in LA and I'm
going to say, this is probably, you know, the hotbed
of talent in the world. This is probably the biggest
(01:26):
talent pool in the world for actors. And there's just
so many good actors. And it kind of breaks my
heart when we do casting because everybody's so darn good.
I mean, you know some aren't, but but you know,
the good ones. There's so many good choices and it's
hard to pick. So when I was do you know,
three films ago, I said, enough's enough this. I don't
know what I'm doing. I really don't. I don't know
(01:48):
where to find these people. And I reached out and
I found you, and you said we can make this
process more enjoyable and better, and you were right. All right,
So let's just start with how did you either of
you can take the question, all right, how did you
get into casting? To start with? Like, why casting?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for also
recognizing casting. That's very thoughtful and sometimes that does not happen.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
People think they can do it all.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And I kind of feel like casting directors are super important.
How I got into casting, I was always doing casting
in the different jobs that I had, finding new and
important talent, whether it be at an agency or in development.
That was sort of my passion. And then I was
able to segue development into casting and got my first
(02:39):
job as a baby assistant on night at the museum.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
But you obviously wanted to be in casting.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I did.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I sort of fell into it, though in a roundabout way.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
As did I. I went to NYU for acting, but
never really wanted to be an actor, and I found
I interned at a casting agency for commercials and I
found my So.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Now you're behind the camera in front of it.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah. How did you guys find each other? And why
are you partners? Or is that a no?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
We found each other. We actually worked at William Morris
in the nonscripted department.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I didn't know this.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Yes, that's how we met. And we always talked about casting,
and at the time we said one day we're going
to have a company together. But at the time it
was way too early. We needed to explore and experience.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
What were you doing at William Morris.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
We were both assistants in the unscripted department, in the
unscripted packaging packaging right when American Idol started Survivor, all
of it. So we were right there, and we.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Put Jeff Probes into Survivor, and we put Ryan Seacrest
into American Idol.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So you left sort of the big budget Hollywood, you know,
dream environment to start your own.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
No, no, there was about fifteen years in between that
or longer, and so we experienced many different things. I
worked at a network in casting, and then at a
digital company and casting head of talent, and then she.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Was I was working first in development, and then I
went over into the casting department and worked for independent
casting directors and did TV and film.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Okay, so what made you decide to launch and get
into the entrepreneurial route of becoming your own company and
your own casting.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well, I had already been doing it solo, and then
there was an opportunity that presented ourselves.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
We were both available, and we decided it's much better
to work with somebody.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
For moral support or for just workloaders everything.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
And we also brought different things to the table, which
meant we could do even more.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Because so she came from unscripted and I came from scripted, right,
So now we do both.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
And at the time there were some strikes COVID all
of that that we were able to do a lot
more in the unscripted department.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And now it's sort of making a switchback over to
scripted as well.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So I want to stay on the world of casting.
But I do want to ask you one question, Candace, Like,
I really don't believe there's anything close to unscripted. I
think that all unscripted is actually scripted. They just call
it unscripted because it's a little more natural and a
little bit, but they still tell everybody what direction to go,
how to do, because unscripted would be too boring. I think,
like even Survivor to me is scripted.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Yes, probably, yes it is. I mean, obviously you're right,
you have to follow U a fella or else it
would go on forever or there wouldn't be anything. But
I think in the way beginning, when people were really
real and did not know what was going on, that
they were gonna, you know, they wanted to share their
lives because somebody plucked them out of the middle of nowhere.
I think it was a different time. Now, yes, clearly
(05:49):
everybody knows.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
That's what I believe.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
What you you know you want to do it for
a reason, for a hope of becoming female.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But anyways, I don't want to get it. I don't
want to digress, get to digress and get distracted with that.
Let's go into casting. So the reason I think a
casting director. I would recommend for all low budget Indy
producers to use a casting director. Here's the reason. And
you told me this, Miriam, years ago. You said that
I can cut to the chase quicker than you can.
You deal with these actors every day in an inside.
(06:17):
You know them, you know who they are. Like me,
I would have to do a casting call. And I
did this like before I started using casting rics. I'd
do a casting call. I'd get hundreds of people, sometimes
thousands if it was dancers and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Very overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
You don't have it takes hours and days and months
to go through it all. I mean, you get these headshots, like,
how do you know who's good who isn't good? You
said to me, I've seen these people audition one hundred times.
Give me your script. I'm gonna do a script breakdown.
I'm gonna do a character breakdown which you'd do, and
that's how it starts. And then you say, I already
know who's gonna Like you said, I know who's gonna
(06:53):
be in these films. I already know which characters you're
gonna want to hire, which actors, And you're right, So like,
just explain, like how often do you see the same
people over and over and you get to know them? Right?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, there's you definitely get to know a lot of them.
I mean, obviously there are gonna be people that pop
out and I'm like, oh, we're like, wow, I never
even thought of that person. Haven't seen that person. That's
a new person. And that's exciting too. It's not that
I when I said that to you, it wasn't necessarily
that I know exactly who you're going to hire. I
know what you're looking for, right I understand what you're
(07:27):
looking for and what your vision is because we had
long conversations about it. So I was able to tailor,
you know, the audition process to a bunch of people
that I knew you were going to like. And then
you throw in some like surprises, because there's always like
you never know, like maybe today you were looking for
something you might just be surprised by.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The post correct the odd the odd time comes you know,
comes it from left field and you didn't expect it
and right, and that actually works out. But how does
it start? Like, can you yetness? Maybe tell us about
this sort of the breakdown of the characters and stuff
like that, right.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
So you know, we'll work with writer, director, producer get
the perfect you know, the right breakdown for each character.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
You do that though you read the script.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
We read the script, but we also like inputs sometimes
from if you want to tell us exactly what you're
looking for, because maybe we see a different vision or
this and that. You know, we'll share our breakdown sometimes
with you and then you can tweet adjust it and
then we post them on different sites and we'll also
reach out to depending on what we're looking at you
(08:30):
sees if we you know, feel that's a good idea too,
But we we want to really do it wide because
you never know who you're going to get. Yeah, because
you never know, you can find that diamond in the
rough that you would have never thought could do this role.
And it's just I mean, that's wonderful when that happened.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, that's new emerging talent all the time.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
All the time.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
All the time. People come out of the what works
and decide they want to act or.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Okay, So here's the biggest question that all indie filmmakers
have to deal with and struggle with. Did they go
SAGER non SAG So SAG Screen Actors Guild and that's
the union or non SAG. Now I'm going to say
before you answer this is I think SAG has done
a really good job at making their union. You know,
people affordable at various budget levels because they have, you know,
(09:16):
the different breakdowns, modern low budget, all this kind of stuff,
so it's it's affordable to use SAG actors. But then
of course you have all the twenty percent bump ups
and all this kind of stuff, So you got to
take that into consideration. But you know a lot of
people say, oh, you want good actors, they have to
be SAG, and I say, I don't know. It hasn't
necessarily been my experience. I agree that there's a lot
(09:36):
of good actors in SAG, but there's a lot of
good actors in non SAG. So what you're feeling SAG non.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
SAG, I agree.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I think you can find some very interesting talent non sag.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Because because you know, especially lately since post pandemic and
post strike and all this kind of stuff, jobs are
harder to come by. What's that mid tier level that
we were talking about.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
For the FI Court five courts too, you can get
to their unions so they can just basically they're in
the union, but they didn't make enough to qualify at
a certain level, so then they can actually work as
a non union actors and not penal for any consequences,
which I mean is great for people who want to
(10:18):
produce the movie non union and have union and have
union actors, because sometimes, I mean that can help a
non union film sometimes. But there's also people, as you said,
that are not yet in the union and are really
great and don't get the chance to be seen because
a lot of other movies won't take the chance on
(10:39):
non union actors.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So what does it take to get into the union?
They have to have a certain amount of acting hours
or something, or.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Being taft heart lead in is another way where the
production signs off on it.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
If you're like the only person that is perfect for
this role that is union, but your non union, then
you can get taft heart lead in or A.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I just want to dispel this myth that it's affordable
to you SAG actors. I can tell you that from experience,
because of what SAG has done with the levels. So
I don't think that should be the decision criteria. It
should be based on talent and the right fit for
the movie. Obviously, I've gone SAG and non SAG, and
you know we've had this discussion many times. To me,
(11:21):
it's just about talent and meer and one day you
said to me, here's the concept, Jeff. I'll find you
the right talent, but pay them the right number. And
you've often said the SAG number is actually the right number.
So even when we've gone non SAG, I've paid the
SAG rates, which is I think the right thing to
do as long as we can afford it.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah. Absolutely, So I'm not.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Looking for necessarily a bargain on the talent, but I
don't want to preclude non SAG talent just because they're
not in the union. I want the right characters, but
I'm willing to pay that rate. I got to tell you,
I'm not crazy about paying the twenty percent, you know,
bump ups and all this kind of stuff. But you know,
but I think fair is the right word. Just pay
fairly and you're gonna get, you know, good performances. Okay.
(12:02):
So here's the big thing for me, and this is
why I use you. How do you like? It breaks
my heart going to casting sessions. All these great talented
people come in, young, old, everything, and I look at
them and you know, last time we cast, remember I said,
how do you decide? Like? I mean, okay, one or
two weren't great. Let me explain to the audience what
(12:24):
we do. So I basically say to you, you guys,
do your reach out and you you know, get the
headshots and do what you do. So you do round one.
I call it round one, which is kind of going
through the field and figuring out with the recorded sessions.
Can you explain what sort of round one is?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Basically, we do the breakdown and then we ask actors
to self tape. Currently self taping is still a big thing,
so they make it since doing the scenes that we
picked out, and then send us the self tapes. And
then we go through the self tapes Candice and I
and we figure out who seems good and appropriate for
(13:01):
the role and that we think you're gonna like and
we send over a bunch probably, so.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
That's stage two. Let's just finish stage one, yea. So on.
So let's say on a lead character, right, a lead role,
big role, how many self tapes would you get submitted
to you put a limit on it?
Speaker 4 (13:17):
No, no, never, because you never know who you're going
to exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
But you could get hundreds.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yes, we do, and we go job and we go
through the hundreds.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And that is why you use you, because I don't
have the patience of the time to go.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Down exactly why you should use a casting direct totally,
anyone a casting director. There's a reason why we exist.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
That alone.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Even the pictures like just going through headshops, pius.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Who you want to do? That's self taping.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
So some people enjoy it more than I do. I
actually don't like that proces. It's just so much work.
And there's the criteria is so nebulous, like I can't
say this is better than this. I don't even know
what to look for, honestly. So you could go you
go through hundreds of self tapes and you narrow it
down and I often say to you, I only want
to see the top ten. Yes, that's usually what I say.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Usually we give you a little more.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Okay, give a little more, I never know. Okay. So
stage two is, let's say top ten, we're going to
do a live audition, call back, a callback.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
A callback chemistry read.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
All right, so let's talk about that. What's that?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
So a callback chemistry read is usually in person. It
can also be on zoom with you. We actually did
it in person, which I love. And we have them
come in and read the scene and then you direct
them and change them and give them tweaks to how
you want to see the performance. And then we'll bring
in another actor to do a scene with them to
(14:36):
see how they work well off of one another.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
So I call that the mix and match. Yes, the
mix and match, which gets a little confusing. Remembory. We
had a lot of scenes going with a lot of
people last time we did this, and can we try
this one with this person? And this because a lot
of it's chemistry, for sure, like do these two look
good together? They feel good and you can feel that
for sure. Okay, But still at the end of like
I remember that day we cast, you know, for one
(15:01):
of the movies, and it was we had some really
good choices, and it kind of broke my heart that
we had to just choose one for you know, that
character role, because ten other ones were just almost as good.
But there's only one role. And you guys, doesn't break
your hearts, no.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Because I also think, you know what, we're going to
remember them for something else, or you're going to remember
them for your next movie. I really like that one person,
and sure enough, we'll bring in that one person that
you were thinking about that we didn't hire.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Well, we often do that for the supporting roles, like
when we're going we start with the lead roles, and
then you say to me, hey, and remember that person
you liked for the lead, we should consider her for
this supporting role.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
But I'm even saying like, if they didn't get any I.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Know, then the next movie you never know.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
And we you know, if we didn't know these people,
we got introduced to them in person and we will
remember them as well.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah. So here's other things that you guys have done.
And I don't even know if you knew you did
it all? Right, So you what you did a Candice,
You said to me, we were sitting in that cast,
like in that callback, right, and I was trying to
take notes and understand it. You know, it's the lots
coming at you in a short period. And then you
said that person didn't take your direction well, And I
(16:10):
said really, I said, because you're standing behind a camera
and you're watching them act like I'm kind of looking
at them. And you say, yeah, no, no, you gave
direction and she she just completely ignored it. And I said,
I didn't even notice that, and you said yeah, because
you're not looking at that. You're kind of looking at
the lines and the chemistry of the two people. But
you said that, you said this, I know your style, Jeff,
(16:32):
and she's not going to be able to work with
you the way you want to work. And I thought, okay,
like you're probably right, but I didn't even notice, right
because of your second set of eyes and you're looking
at different stuff. And you've seen so many of these callbacks, remember,
like I come in, I do this once a year.
You do it, you know, once a week, so you
(16:53):
just kind of know what to look for. You have
a better sensitivity to little things, these little tweaks and
stuff like that. Now I want to ask you something
and you don't even have to answer, honestly, but the audience,
the actors who are listening to this are going to
want to know do you have biases, like are there
people you like you don't like? Or is it just
completely neutral? What's going to be good for the part?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Neutral? I'll let you in.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
No, I agree with neutral. I don't have I want
the best possible outcome for you, you know, and the project.
I don't have bias. I don't think there.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Were times there were actors we know who they are.
There's certain characters who came in and they weren't necessarily
the most experienced of the actors or something, but you said,
there's just something, there's a little chemistry here or something
that's going on that just might fit right. You know.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
That's not bias though, it's not bias, Okay, it's that's
just yeah, there's some there's a sparkle there, there's something there.
And I definitely think even in our first film that
we worked there were somebody that I will remain nameless.
Actually there were two, I think, and I was like,
this is your person, this is your and I we
had went round and round about.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
It and it worked out. It worked great, It worked
out fantastic and was the person. Yeah, but it could
have gone either way. You know, I've had a couple
actors that maybe weren't the best choice, but you don't know,
generally speak, I'm gonna say most of the actors generally
work out just you know, did something bring a little
different chemistry or whatever the case might be.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
It happens.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
But I think the real value that casting directors bring
is to just manage the amount of work. I mean,
you're doing like this big first round outreach. I mean,
what director has the time to go through a couple
of hundred head shots or a couple hundred self tapes.
I know directors who actually like doing this. I frankly don't.
(18:44):
I don't like doing it because it's deciding between two
fine wines, you know, which one is better. I mean,
it's just a personal opinion or a flavor at the time,
and they both could be good. But you take that,
you know, out of the equation. You know, one might say, oh,
you know, there's fifty other people who you didn't call back,
who should have been called back. Who knows? Who knows?
(19:06):
You never know? Now is the only reason that people
don't use a casting director at low budget films is
because they think they can't afford it. What other reason would.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
They possibly that could be one of them.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Possibly, And I also think control too. People like to
have control over every aspect of their project. But having
a casting director is not giving up No, it's just
another reason. I think that might be psychological that people
think that they're giving up control, or maybe they won't
see everybody, or they might, But I think a casting director,
(19:37):
you can work with the person who hires you in
whatever way they want. If they want hands on from
the beginning and see every headshot that comes into we're
willing to do as much, give every you know, whoever
they want, as much leeway to be involved, or if
they have so much on their plate they'd rather, you know,
give us the opportunity to, you know, show what we
(19:58):
can bring to the table.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
That's great too, But I do think it's probably most
of it at this point is budget.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, so I would say that it's almost illogical not
to use a casting director. Honestly, you should budget for that.
And I'm not saying because you're sitting here, it's just
the amount of work and effort and management that you
do to help decipher this very tricky process is super valuable.
And I think the value proposition is there. It's very
(20:26):
clear to me that it is. And again, you know,
some people think, Okay, if something's going to have to give,
I'm going to give on that. And I don't want
to give on my music or my script or something
like that. But amongst the most important components of your
movies are your actors, right.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Right at the town.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
You've got to get that right. I mean, what's the
point in having nice equipment and nice locations and if
you don't have good performances. So you've got to get
that right. And I think that you guys serve an
amazing purpose there. I want to just switch gears and
I want to look at it from the point of
view of an actor. All right, So I've been talking,
you know, as a point of view director, producer, right,
So I think there's a lot of value there. What
(21:00):
advice would you give actors in super competitive this industry?
You know, every industry is, but acting, Oh my god,
that's ridiculously competitive. And you know, the difference sometimes is
a look, a smile of this or that. That's all
just a tiny little thing, right. I kind of like
say in sports, and I used to coach hockey right.
Everybody was a good player. Everybody. The difference was if
(21:22):
a scout was there that day and you happened to
score the goal on the right day, at the right moment,
you your career elevates, and there were fifty other people
who are just as good, maybe better than you. You
just had that moment. So what advice would you give
to a young aspiring actor or even an older actor
on how to break through? Give yourself, you know, a chance,
or there are tips that might you know, I would say,
(21:44):
like get a good agent or something like that that helps.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
But I also think there are actors out there who
are not represented, who are able to get jobs, and
you know, they get there themselves seen, So that's important.
I think I'm a big believer of making strong choices,
like on your self tape, make a decision and stick
with that, and make that strong choice.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So choose sort of the way you're going to portray
the character and go with it, and if it's.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Wrong, then they'll correct you, or if.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
They'll say that it's not the right person.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Correct, but you made a strong choice and that's important
versus just being sort of you know, wishy washy through it,
then you're not very memorable. I mean you you are
your own brand, so you need to know yourself and
be able to present yourself.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Good advice, what would you say?
Speaker 4 (22:30):
And I also think these days there is social media,
there is so many ways that you can get yourself
out there and present yourself so people maybe see you
in whatever aspect. But also like go to classes, do
you know, apply an audition as much as you can
submit yourself, you know, see as many opportunities as you can,
(22:51):
and make your own opportunities to these days, like there's
just so much available these days that there wasn't before,
no matter what age you are. You know, read a
scene with a partner and film it and put it up,
or you know, write something for you, write something yourself.
I mean that it's just right at your fingertips. We
can all just do whatever we want and put it
(23:12):
out there. But like, if you really believe in yourself,
do as much as you can. Network.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
But these are all sort of I mean everybody says
all this and you say put it out there? What
is exactly does that mean? Put it out there? Like
on social media, you.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Can put it out on social media, you can put
it up on like the websites like breakdown or casting
networks like it depends on what the median is that
you write.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Okay, so I'm going to switch gears now for a
second and we're going to talk sort of distribution. So
distributors will always tell you and I come from that world,
as you know, get recognizable talent, I mean, get a
liss talent if you can. Obviously it helps sell the movie,
of course it does. I mean, who doesn't want a
list talent in their movie? Obviously you do. It's a
value proposition. Is the price worth what the revenue is
(23:54):
going to be? That's I look at it that way, right,
So often you don't know the answer, and you're taking
a huge risk paying bigger money for recognizable talent. I'm
gonna say, for the most part, recognizable talent is good talent. Okay,
they know how to act, obviously, But the reason you
could pay so much is because they're recognizable. Because a
lot of people say who's in it? It's often not affordable.
(24:14):
But once in a while people say, I want to
take a shot, all right, and and they go with
the do you have like a B plus a minus?
You know, person, So what is B plus A. MI, Like,
what does that mean like somebody who's done something and
isn't doing it anymore?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
No, I think it's uh, that could be one hop
It could be that they're they're not the lead of things,
whether it be like a movie or a TV show,
so they're like second in line.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
M M.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
That also plays a factor, and it's a little less
than the ad.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
But I also think it's international too, right, if that's
what you're like international distribution, It depends what your A
and B where.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
You're planning to try to distribute this this film, like
international A is different than USA sometimes.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Okay, just so you.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Like domestic that yeah, yeah, let's go with domestic, all right?
Just okay? So who would be? Give me an example
of somebody who would be? And again, price points, I mean,
chances are in an indie, low budget indie film, you're
not getting eight you're not getting it. You're not getting
you just can't afford them. And by the way, even
if you could, they don't want to do it right
because they want the whole production to be elevated. Unless
(25:29):
they wrote the script or they are directing it and
it's their baby. That's different. Then it's their project. But
I'm not talking about that situation. I'm talking about you
wrote it, it's your script, it's your you're directing it.
Your budget's half a million, and they don't want to
work at that level, even though they love your script.
They don't want to take a chance that their reputation
is going to be tainted by a low budget indie
film with a first time director. Probably, right, Okay, faris fair.
(25:53):
I understand that. But who would take the chance and
how much do we have to pay them to take
the chance.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
There's no set magic number, obviously. I think it depends
on a lot of things. I mean, so somebody you
could get is like a TV actor who might be
on hiatus.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
And I also think it matters if you want them
for a day right, you want them for a one
day shoot. That's different than wanting them to be the
lead of the movie, correct, Right, So you have more
of a chance possibly with all these other factors, that
you could possibly get a known actor for a day player.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Okay, but we I mean there was a time when
I said I would like You said, why don't we
try for this?
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
I said, no, what do you mean, We're never going
to get that person.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
You never know, I said, I never know.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Maybe there's a moment they like the script, they need
a little extra cast.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
If they really like the script, it's like a you know,
all the world's collide, so great script. They haven't been
working and you know they have some time off. Why not?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I mean, you never know.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Correct, So it doesn't hurt to try, correct.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
I mean it's simple. You can get a quick answer.
Somebody can read it, and if there are people pass
on their behalf or whatever, so you try it.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
It's but we're not talking player prey. I mean, you
know play what's it called player pay payer play deals
and where you have to put money up for them
to read and all that, And we're talking about people
who if they like it, we're going to make a
decent offer, and you know they're gonna just going to say,
you know, this is the range, like I don't want
to waste my client's time. Can they afford to pay this?
And you say yes, but you know this is what
they can afford to pay. So I think I agree
(27:28):
with you. It's worth a try. But is it delusional
to like how often does it happen? Realistically? Like say
half million dollar indie features trying to get you know
what I'm going to call a B plus A minus.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
You know, I think it's possible, and I certainly think.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Now we're talking about fifty thousand for a day.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
I don't, I can't.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I know, it's all negotiable.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I know that, but I think.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
But people want to know. Like this series is called
Truth and Reality, we want to know.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Listen.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
The reality is it's there's too many factors. Are going
to give you a number. You're looking for a number.
And I think that first of all, an A person
is different than a B plus person.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I know, but I'm talking B plus a minus, right,
somebody who had the moment they were in the line
like they were an A actor.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
How many days?
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I mean, well, that's what I'm saying. I think it
would have to be like one day thing to even
be enticing. But I don't know. It has to be
so many. The stars have to align right, and so
it's hard to say. I'm a bit more pessimistic than
I'm like, but just tell them the truth, give them
the truth.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
But you never know because.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Pessimist because of experience, because you've tried and they haven't
been receptive.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
And maybe in life. I'm pair I had to say,
because I mean, listen, people pass all the time. That's
part of it.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
You need to.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
But if you don't try, you never know because, as
you say, you each person or each script, every circumstance.
If it's being shot in their backyard, you know, that's
more enticing too. It all, there's so many very aariables
before we can say yes, this is like, don't waste
your time or do it. I mean the likelihood yes,
probably won't happen, but you never know.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Right, I never say, I mean unless unless it's like
really ridiculous, then I would say to you know, but again,
you hired me, and I'm happy to go and try
because you never know.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I agree. I agree, it's you know, it's worth a try. Yeah, yeah,
And I'm going to say that you have a better
chance at giving it a try being a casting director
than me as the director was exactly. And the reason
is I'm gonna explain this to the audience is because
agents really don't want to waste their time with me.
They know that you're more serious, you're in the business.
You're not gonna waste their time. You're going to do
(29:43):
it super professionally the right way quickly. You're gonna get
them what they need quickly, and it's not going to
be oh, this whole song and dance about how passionate
you are about your movie and all this kind of stuff.
They kind of know that already. You're going to just
cut to the chase. We got fifty thousand and we
can spend if you're clients interested in two days, and
this is the script. Can we do this or not?
As it even more checking, they might say, who's the director?
(30:05):
They might say, ask a couple of questions, but you're
gonna ask them real quickly.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The reps are going to believe that it's a more
legitimate project.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Because it is more legitimate generally. Yes, so some directors
get involved. But I find that directors get a little
too overpassionate and get a little too wordy and get
a little too involved emotionally, and it's like, oh, you're
gonna love this project. It's the greatest thing ever. We've
heard that every single time. Obviously, you love your project,
it's your project. You'll handle it in a very professional
business way. So I think you'll actually have a better
(30:34):
chance at landing that deal. Then I would directly not
to mention. I wouldn't even know who to go to.
I wouldn't know how to get to them. They're not
going to necessarily return my call as quickly because they're
not going to believe it. It's not going to be
as legitimate.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
I mean, we deal with that too sometimes when you know,
we're meeting on possible new projects and we find out that,
you know, people already reached out to agents managers without
a casting director, and sometimes that, I'm it hurts their
project too, because they keep reaching out and getting people passing,
and if you're not doing it the right ways, they just.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Don't believe it's credible.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It takes credibility away from But also Miriam, I remember
the first time we did this, I said, hey, maybe
we should go for sort of a name actor in
this role was the professor role?
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yes, right?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And you said who do you think? And I said,
I don't know who do you think? And you said,
you can listed ten people off, like, here's like ten
people who would be appropriate for the role, who are
at the level that we could probably afford. I could
have never done that, and then we, you know, we
narrow it down to five or whatever. Went after them.
We didn't end up getting them, but we gave it
a shot, and actually people took your call and receptive
(31:43):
to the idea. Yep, some people like the party just
timing wasn't right or whatever. I think it was more
legitimate the way. Well, first of all, from a director's
point of view and producer, you know, I wouldn't even
have known. I could have maybe named two or three
people on that list. You named ten immediately just like that.
You probably could have named twenty five of them because
you just know who they are. It's your world. You
(32:03):
travel in that in those circles. You even said to me, oh,
that one's not going to be available. They're shooting this movie,
and you know this one might be there looking for
work or they have auditioned for something else. Like you
know that you have that inside scoop because you live
and work in that, in those circles, whereas I would
never know any of that kind of stuff. So, and
I'm not trying to pitch you or anything like that.
(32:23):
I'm just saying the truth of what really goes on.
So the value there is so important because you land
somebody like that, it's worth the price of admission. Ten
times over. Yes, So okay, what are the things would
you say that indie producer directors should sort of be
cogniz of in the whole world of casting, because I
(32:43):
really appreciate the value that a casting director brings to
the table. But I don't think a lot of people do.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I think shooting schedule, and I'll tell you why, because
I think you can this is your passion project. Isn't
necessarily the actor's passion project, but you hope that it's
going to be. They're going to be passionate about it.
But if you're able to you know, squish the schedule
together and make it as tight as possible, you're more
(33:10):
likely to be able to get some bigger names, and
they're more likely to do it because they're not like
on a day and then you know, hanging out for
five days.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, you've said that to me before, if we can
contain it to these three days, and you've also said
if we can continue to this location too. That's true
because they don't want to go be running around.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
You know, it's also expensive when you shoot out of
the area because then you're also looking into you know,
lodging and flights and like all of the travel and
the per diem.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Okay, so let's get into that for a second. So
the other value that you really provide is you do
the sort of the deal memo. I mean you engage
once we say hey, let's go with that. You'll do
the first engagement, which is a deal memo, and you'll
coach me through per deems and we should offer this
And I mean you're working on my behalf. But your
massaging is so that the actor feels good about it
(34:01):
and is going to be comfortable.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
And that the agent feels comfortable.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yes, of course, of course that's important.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, and an agent, agent and manager.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Agent, manager, I mean that's the middleman they need to
feel good. Yeah, often the actors not even involved exactly.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
They have a manager agent.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
What is the difference between a manager and an agent, Candice, Well.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
A manager can produce too, but that's agent can only
take a certain amount of I don't know, is it
ten percent?
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Still, they're limited on their commissaire.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Limited on their commission really?
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, so what does anybody what do they just all
call themselves managers?
Speaker 4 (34:35):
No, because it's some managers.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I think you have to have a license to make
a deal.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Oh, it's regulated. I didn't even know this. Sorry for
those agent managers who are losing this, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, but there are managers who have who do have
the license that can make the deal.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So what would a manager do that an agent wouldn't like?
What kind of.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Things manager manages the day to day also, and it
is really like about fostering the client it's career.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
And their jectory and you know what you're going to.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Where's an agent would only look for work like try
to reach out and see what people are looking for.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
I mean, I think they also hope that their client
will grow and become you know, a talent and all
of that stuff too.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
But usually, like agencies are much bigger than a small
management company, and a small manager can have less clients
than an agent. Usually this is just usually right, so
they're able to you know, have a more day to
day conversation with the clients.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, as long as the clients are working regularly, so
there's money.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
But even if they weren't, they still have the day
to day discussion.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
And there are some people who just have managers and
don't have agents, and there's some people who have agents and managers.
I mean, I think it depends how busy you are too.
Why are you going to give all your money away? Right?
Nothing of nothing is nothing?
Speaker 1 (35:52):
But so you primarily actually probably deal with managers and agents, right,
because the talent comes in, they do the audition, they
do the callback, and then but for the most part,
all the deals are done with the managers and agents.
Oh yeah, So in that world, what do you look for?
I mean, you know you're going to get what you get, right,
this actor is represented by this person, You're going to
deal with them. I mean that's another value. Add I
(36:15):
frankly can't stand dealing with managers and agents. It's just
such a put off for me. So it's one step remove.
And you know, I'm a lawyer by trade. It's not
like I'm worried about negotiations or anything like that. I
just I would rather a third party, you who know
what you're doing, non emotional, just say here's the deal,
here's what we're Because I someting I say to you,
(36:35):
that's it. That's all I got, Take it or leave it.
And you know, you'll sometimes push me a little bit
and say, well can you throw a little bit more
infrastrate travel or a little per diem here or something
like that that could make the difference.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
And that helps because you're massaging the deal to make
it work. Now, you are working for me. I hired
you and you're representing me, but you know that I
want the person. You know that it's going to be
good for the film, so you're going to massage it
a little bit. So it's never occurred to me that
you're actually working for them and trying to their best way.
When you say we need a little bit more, it's
(37:08):
because you want the deal to be made, not because
you want.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
To make And it's not outrageous.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
No, it's never outrageous because you know kind of what
you know the worth is. Yeah, all right, So what
do you look for in a client other than the
right fee? The right fee, the right thing is important.
You're you know, you do this for a living.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
I think if the product, if the script is good,
you know, if there's something there that's important too, because
if it's a bad script, you're going to struggle to
get people to you know, the right actors, good quality
actors to sign on to.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Really and also appreciation goes a long way, and they
and that they value your opinion. And things like that,
like that's that's great to hear it, But how do
you know, well, you have a conversation, you know you're having.
We we have to interview to get the job, so we,
you know, interview, and if we feel like we're not jiving,
(38:03):
then it won't be very successful. I mean, it could
be successful, but most likely it's going to be a
little hard.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
But when I first met you, Miriam, because I met
you before Canvas, Yes, I think I met five casting directors,
I came up, I did an LA trip, and I
just kind of did the rounds.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
I thought I had it all.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
No, the chemistry is right, it felt, you said. I
can't remember exactly, but you said a couple of things
to me that sort of made me feel like you're
going to be the right fit for me. And I'm
always skeptical at the whole Hollywood, you know, I think
it's I think really what captured sort of my interest
was that you understood the indie thing and it wasn't delusional.
You're not throwing around the big Hollywood budget talk, name
(38:47):
name dropping, all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Because why set your sights on like something that's totally a.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Lot of people look at a lot of directors throw
do the name dropping thing. Oh, I'm thinking, you know,
we're going to get too for this. We're gonna get this,
We're gonna get No, you're not, like, can you stop that,
You're just wasting everybody's time. Yes, it's delusional, yes, okay,
but people.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
Do it right, and sometimes people hire those casting directors
who say, oh, we can get them, and guess what
happens they don't get them. You wasted your.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Time and your money.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Then you're back to square one again.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah. I think that I was attracted the fact that
you weren't name dropping, you weren't thrown around the big
Hollywood numbers, because I don't. I don't operate that way
at all. Like I'm maybe too not delusional, maybe I'm
too jaded right to the point where I think, Okay,
there's no point even having this conversation because we're not
going to get them. And you said, no, no, let's
(39:40):
give it a shot.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
I mean, if you have the time, try, but let's
you know, we at some point you have to just say,
all right, well we're not going to get these crazy names.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
And maybe not every role too, right, that's true. Figure
out who you want to try to which cameo?
Speaker 1 (39:55):
What's going on in the indie film business these days?
I mean it's I you know, I'll be see that's
my business. You know. I made two movies last year.
You cast them both. I know how tough it is.
I do the financing, I do the distribution. I know
this business inside note and I'm going to tell you
this is not an easy business. What do you guys
see it's.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Very slow right now. And I know that a lot
of people want to work and haven't been working. Then
that goes for everybody on like that goes for actors,
that goes.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
For every crew people everything.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Well, remember, I don't.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Know whether it's easier to shoot outside of Los Angeles or.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
You cast outside of LA.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
I mean, yeah we did.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
We all of your films are outside of LA. But
I meant like outside of California, right, tax breaks and
things like.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
That, outside of the country.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Actusolutely, that's what a lot of people are doing right now.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
And I wasn't talking just LA. I'm talking the indie
film business, right I'm not talking just the LA indie
film business. It's the indifilm business in LA. It's tricky, tricky, tricky. Yes,
it's a little more expensive to shoot here. There are
no financial incentives. Millionaire.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
They're trying to work on that, but yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
But they've been trying for years. It hasn't happened. I've
been involved in trying that. I've been very involved in that.
Like I wrote an Assembly bill, that's how involved I was. Yeah,
So what do you see as the future on the
indie side. I still believe that there always will be
that business.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
I think there will always be that business because there's
always that passion that people have to make a film
and you know, write it, do it down and dirty.
I mean, you can do it. There are ways to
do it. You find a way to do it no
matter what. I mean, people come together and also people
who are passionate about being in this business and there
is no business to be had, you know, or whatever
(41:40):
moment you figure it out, you give up certain things
to try to make it work.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
I think there's always going to be storytelling in.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Art, for sure, and I think indie storytelling is amazing
because it just delves into areas.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
That it can be more honest. It doesn't have to
be as commercially you know, I mean it should be
and if you want to be successful, want to entertain
an audience interesting stories.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
I was going to say, I mean, I hate to
bring it up, but AI, do you bring that into
your films to make it a little.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Less Yeah, So that's that's a huge subject right now.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
I know, I know that's a separate is.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
But I'm going to turn it around and say, what
about AI actors?
Speaker 4 (42:16):
I understand.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I mean I've seen some influencers that are unbelievable and
have gigantic followings. They're not even real, they're robots. I mean,
there's just images. I mean, that's going to happen in acting.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
AI is going to touch on every like field.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
So you know we're on the cusp of it right now.
But it's going to happen.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
Non existing Bye, nice meeting you.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
No, No, but he knows who knows what opportunities that
will bring or you know what directions it'll change, right,
and it could help.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
I don't know, it's.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Going to be a big change. I often talk to
my kids who are involved in AI, like in a
big way. Often talk to my students also. You know,
there's like I teach, you know, two universities and the
question is this is AI enhanced education or detract from it?
I guess it's good for them to submit their You know,
everybody says, going to use AO to grade your papers, Well,
why shouldn't I You use ADA write your papers. Okay, anyway,
(43:13):
we'll see the world's ever changing. But you know what,
look at every industry evolves. It's all constantly. The film
businesses evolved, right, I mean, look at streaming changed everything. Hey,
I was going to change everything. You know, you go
with the flow, right, and we see what happens. So
it'll be it'll be interesting.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
But I mean, you can shoot something with your your camera,
your your phone, phone, you can shoot a movie with
your phone. You can do it.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
You.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
I mean, there's no reason to give up now. I mean,
when there is a will, there's a way.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
I'm a big champion and believer in storytelling and low
budget indie filmmaking. At the end of the day, it's
about one thing. Talent talent and acting talent, and writing
talent and directing talent and just storytelling. If you got
the talent, the second component is getting it out there
to people so that they can see your talent. That's
the tricky part that is the real that's called distribution.
(44:01):
That and marketing, that is the tricky part. So I
spent a lot of time, you know, talking to any
filmmakers about that. But people have talent, you know, they're
still going to tell great stories. And people who don't
have talent, you're still going to try to tell great stories.
So that's the way it's always going to be. Because
it's it is a dream quasi delusional business. Everybody's got this,
(44:22):
you know, this vision that they want to make come true,
and you got to give a shot. It's kind of
like what you said, Hey, let's give it a shot.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
It may work, it may not.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
It may work, it may not. You got to give
it a shot. Sorry, there's one other thing I forgot
to ask you about. We talked about it with my
production manager. You don't do background casting. You do main
sort of actor casting.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
We have done background, but usually we only do the
people who speak.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, so there's a difference for those people who are
listening this lead speaking roles are done differently than the background.
People don't speak, just show up in the background. There's
different casting directors in different sort of channels that you
go through to find people who just want to walk
in the background. By the way, I use casting directors
for both.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Yeah, so I used well you do, yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
And you need a casting director for background because background
people it's a lot of moving parts, a lot of
moving parts. Some of them just don't show up.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
So them don't show up.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
You need somebody.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
You need somebody who's on call twenty four to seven
to be like, oh my gosh, Jeff, you lost ten
of your background.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
Here are ten more.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah. That is the secret to background casting is just
make sure that.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
I mean you have backup of backs.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yeah, no, no, And that's literally what they do. Well.
They just have a huge database and they just keep
calling people and fill the holes. You know, you try
to get the right profile or whatever, but just fill
the gaps. Yeah. So it's probably not as fun, no it.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
I mean some of them know.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
It's it's time consuming and it's where you want to
put your and.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
We enjoy working with actors and you know that is
our sort of love and passion.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Any last words and terms of advice for director producers,
and it's kind of your time to pitch, say, I mean,
I think we've already pitched you enough.
Speaker 4 (46:17):
Yes, Hoffenberg no, I'm kidding.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
I just think it's it's nice when people value casting
directors and value what they bring to the table. So
I think that's important to get the word out, and
I think you are getting the word out, so that's nice, right.
Speaker 4 (46:33):
I think that's true. It's just as important as a producer, director, writer.
That is one other very important aspect in making your
film complete.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, Well, it was great to have
you on the show. Thank you for your insights. I
appreciate it, and more importantly, thank you for doing good
job on all my Moviesay, you will be on the
next one. I'm not sure what it is or when
it is, but it's coming.
Speaker 4 (46:53):
Yay.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
We love it. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Okay, thanks a lot.
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