October 15, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode of Indie Filmmaking: Truth and Reality, Jeff Deverett brings honesty and clarity to the conversation around indie filmmaking. While many podcasts highlight rare “lightning in a bottle” success stories like The Blair Witch Project, Jeff sets the record straight by focusing on the real challenges of indie film budgets. He explains why managing costs, understanding tax credits, and staying realistic about financial outcomes are crucial to creating a sustainable film project.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
As a filmmaker and a podcaster, I listen to a
lot of other people's podcasts, and I watch a lot
of webcasts on filmmaking, and almost every single time I
shake my head and I say, have these people actually
ever made a movie? And that is the reason why
I wanted to do my own podcast, because I want
(00:20):
to tell the truth and the reality of what actually
goes on. If you want to be a successful indie filmmaker,
you need to know a lot about not just the
production of movies, but the business. We are going to
tell you the truth and reality of what really happens
in the indie film business. All right, welcome back to
(00:45):
the show. So not to be too arrogant, but I
have made nine feature films. I've distributed all of them,
I've financed all of them. They're all in the budget
range of somewhere between seven hundred thousand and one point
two million, very realistic. Plus I spent and most of
my career, the first twenty six years of my career
in distribution, both domestic and international, bought and sold hundreds
(01:08):
of independent feature films. I've done series, I've done lots
of stuff. So I'm going to say that I'm pretty
qualified to talk about indie filmmaking, not only the making
of the movies of which I've been on set. Of
the nine features that I produced, I wrote four of them,
directed four of them. You might say five because I
(01:29):
co directed one of them. So I've been integraly involved
in the actual making of the movies, and I've produced
all of them and line produced two of them. So
I've done all of the elements of the actual filmmaking.
So I'm very familiar what it takes to be on
set to make the movies. To plan, I do all
the scheduling myself. I do all the budgeting, all the
(01:50):
legal work, I do the financing, I do all of
this stuff that it takes to get a film made,
and in terms of directing, I do the shot lists,
all the rehearsals with the actors. I mean, I'm super
super involved in filmmaking when I'm making a film, but
that's actually not what makes me qualified to do this podcast.
What really makes me qualified to do it is that
(02:11):
I know distribution and marketing of films inside out. That's
where I focus most of my time and energy. That's
where most of my career has been spent. In the
distribution of marketing side of the film business. And also
I've spent a ton of time on the financing side.
So people say, how did you get your film's finance?
And I say, through private investors. I create the investment decks,
(02:33):
I create the ROI forecasts return on investment, the revenue forecast.
I mean, I know that end of the business because
I used to. I still do buy and sell films,
so I understand how it all works. So my expertise
really is in what I call the bookend stuff, the financing,
the distribution of marketing. Okay, do I know how to
make films the middle park production? Of course I do.
(02:55):
I know it really, really, really well. I know all
of the little tiny stuff. Would I be a good cinematographer, No,
because I don't know cameras and lens as well. Would
it be a good gaffer, No, I don't know lighting.
Would I even be a good actor, No? No. But
I'm a pretty darn good director because I know all
the elements that go into making good entertainment. All right.
So I just want to say that because I want
to qualify what I'm about to talk about. All Right,
(03:19):
I think that I am well positioned to give advice
to other indie filmmakers who want to try to be
successful indie filmmaking. Now here's the other thing. I want
to make it very clear. I focus on low budget
indie filmmaking, all right. I worked for a big media company,
a big public company for many years, for about ten years,
(03:39):
in their distribution division, So I know how the big
companies operate as well. They're vertically integrated, they're big public companies.
We represented a lot of the big brands. I was
in Canada at the time. We represented Disney, Columbia Pictures,
New Line. We had lots of big labels. Ultimately, I
ended up doing Barney The Purple Dinosaur. So I know
how the big brands work. But I decided that I
(04:01):
wanted to focus on indie filmmaking, which is low budget
small stuff, primarily because I'm entrepreneurial and I wanted to
make my own movies like I wanted to choose what
I wanted to make, and I wanted to control them.
I wanted to own them, and I felt confident that
I could do that successfully profitably because I knew how
to monetize them. I knew how to sell them. After
(04:22):
I made them. So my forte for the last i'm
going to say twenty years has been low budget indie filmmaking.
When I say low budget, I'm talking anywhere from two
hundred thousand to say a million in budget, So I'm
not talking necessary below two hundred thousand. I would say
that sort of micro budget filmmaking. That's a whole different mindset,
(04:43):
because frankly, I like to pay people. I don't really
even like to produce at that level. Frankly, I don't
even like to produce it anything less than a five
hundred thousand because I just don't feel that comfortable. I
can't pull in any more favors. You can't ask people
to work for free. You can't juggle all that kind
of stuff made nine features. You got to be paying people.
I want to pay people. I want to pay them
(05:03):
a fair wage. I want to pay locations a fair wage.
I just want to do it properly as a business,
and I know how to monetize at that level. So
I'm not saying indie filmmakers shouldn't work at micro budget levels.
They probably should. But you can only pull in favors
for so long. Then you've got to start paying people.
So my sweet spot are films from five hundred thousand
to a million. That's sort of my sweet spot in
(05:24):
terms of how to get them properly made, on time
and on budget, and more importantly, properly and successfully distributed
so that you can monetize them and get your money
back and hopefully make a profit. Right, That is my
sweet spot. That's what I talk about the most. I
don't talk about big budget Hollywood stuff. I really don't
talk about anything in excess of say even a million
(05:46):
and a half. That would be the most I would
ever talk about, and usually it's just a million. So
I wanted to just make that very clear because the
mindset and the strategies and the disciplines are different when
you're doing it at that level than when you're doing
it at you know, ten million or twenty million or
thirty million, whatever, you know, the bigger companies are doing
it at. So understand that my comments are not going
(06:08):
to be pertinent to those big budget films. It's different.
You've got bigger teams, you've got more resources, you've got
a lot more elements to work with. When you're doing
the smaller budget stuff, it's far more entrepreneurial. You have
to juggle way more balls, wear way more hats, doing
a lot of other things that you wouldn't otherwise have
(06:29):
to do in the bigger stuff. All Right, So I'm
dealing with five hundred thousand, two million dollars. I'm not
dealing with micro budget either. Again, different different sort of
skill set. So here's what I'm going to say. I
listen to a lot of podcasts webcasts of other people
in the industry. I only listen to the ones that
so called talk about indie filmmaking, independent filmmaking, because that's
(06:51):
what I want to hear about, you know. I want
to see what they have to say. Hopefully I can
learn something. I want to see what my competition is
talking about who they are. So I just want to
kind of be in that environment. I'm genuinely interested in that, right,
because that's the world I live in. Most times when
I listen to these podcasts, I shake my head and
I roll my eyes and I say, you gotta be
(07:13):
kidding me, Like what you just said makes absolutely no sense,
Like none of it's real. Have you ever actually made
a film at that level? Have you actually ever financed
a film at that level? Have you actually ever been
on a set, Like what you just said is not
realistic relative to what actually happens. And you see, I'll
tell you why. What happens is is people who call
(07:35):
themselves sort of indie filmmakers. The truth is they're either
doing micro budget films like for fifty thousand or you know,
seventy five or one hundred thousand, and they're pretending that
they're you know, million dollar films, or they're talking about
doing say five million dollar films at budgets of a
million dollars. These films are generally in development because a
(07:56):
five million dollar film is completely different than a million
dollar film, like five times different. All right, you make
five million dollar films for five million dollars. So when
they talk, there's just this disconnect that I feel because
I feel like if you wouldn't have said this, like
if you ever sat in front of a real investor
and pitched them on a real return on investment on
(08:19):
an indie film and actually told them, Okay, I guess
they tell them what they believed to be the truth,
but it's not necessarily what really happens out there in distribution.
So to their credit, I'm going to say generally, they
don't know, all right. So a lot of these people
are talking about this business actually have never actually even
worked in it. They've never actually done it. They just
(08:39):
have myths and legends and maybe listen to other people
because the stuff they're saying is not really happening out there.
It's not realistic. And by the way, I'm not talking
about what happened twenty years ago or even ten years ago.
I'm talking about what happens today and hopefully maybe what's
going to happen tomorrow. But we don't know, all right,
So I'm not talking Oh, in the good old days
of VHS and home entertaining and DVD and all this
(09:01):
kind of stuff that ship has sailed a long time ago.
I don't talk about that stuff, all right. I talk
about where we're at today, you know, at the time
of this podcast, where streaming is and not sure what's
going to happen to more with AI that type of thing.
But a lot of these people, these other people that
I hear talking, I mean, they're talking either about antiquated
stuff that maybe happened twenty five years ago, but the
(09:24):
truth is it actually didn't happen twenty five years ago.
Why Because I was in the business twenty five years ago,
and I know that what they said actually didn't happen,
all right, or they're talking they often talk about an anomaly.
So everybody, when you talk about horror films, the first
thing they talk about is the Blair Witch Project, all right,
a film that was made for supposedly fifty thousand dollars
(09:45):
and did one hundred million dollars at the box office.
So let's assume that that's real. All right. I don't
even know if those numbers are real, but let's assume
they are. Do you know how many films are like that?
One in ten million? Maybe that's called lightning in a bottle.
That is called winning the lottery. That is not the
film business. Can it happen, Yes, of course it can happen.
(10:07):
That's what I call the Hollywood dream. So every once
in a while something like that happens, and you know,
we can all name a bunch of them. The crying
game in Napoleon Dynamite. You know, we know all the
films where it happened, all right, So can it happen, Yes,
it definitely can happen. But it's not the business plan.
You can't expect to win the lottery. You can hope
for it, and a lot of people hope for it.
(10:29):
I even hope for it, Like why wouldn't I want
to win a lottery? Of course I hope for it,
all right. But my business plan is not buy the
ticket and you know I'm gonna win the plan and
the lottery and then I'm gonna live a good life. Now,
my business plans. Work hard, have a business, you know,
earn a living, and then once in a while, maybe
get lucky with something. Maybe. But if I don't get lucky,
it doesn't mean I'm not on a good trajectory, all right.
(10:50):
If I get lucky, that's a bonus. The way some
of these other podcasters and web postures speak, or the
guests that they have on, it's kind of like they're
talking about the naw the one in a million or
the one in ten million that actually hit. It's not
what normally happens. It's it's extremely rare that that stuff happens,
(11:11):
all right, So it's it's misleading. It's totally misleading to
talk about those films as though that's the norm. But
a lot of people indie filmmakers have this dream of
you know, basically their film being the Hollywood dream that
one film in ten million that actually hits it and
you know, one in ten million will or whatever the
statistics are. But it's just it's not realistic to go
(11:34):
into the business thinking that you're going to be that
one film. You can hope for it, but don't build
your business plan around it. So a lot of these
podcasters are talking about this and making it appear like
that's the norm. It is not the norm, all right.
So I roll my eyes and I say, like, why
are you talking? Why are you focusing on that? Let's
talk about the ten thousand other films that got made
(11:54):
last year that never got distribution, that never saw the
light of day, that lost a ton of mone. Now,
not that I want to be depressing, but let's set
the standards the way they normally are. And the other
thing that they always talk about is the big budget film. Right,
So everybody says, oh, I'm gonna make a you know,
an indie film, a five hundred thousand dollars indie film,
(12:15):
and I'm gonna get you know, Tom Cruise, He's gonna
love this script and he's gonna act in it. And
I say seriously, like, are you kidding me? At a
five hundred thousand dollars budget level, you were not getting
a list actors. Here's the reason. There's a few reasons
why you're not getting a list actors. Number One, they
don't work at that level. Number Two, even if it's
their script and they wrote it and they love it,
(12:37):
they do not want to be involved in a film
with that production budget being that low because the film's
not going to look big enough and they're going to
put their reputation at stake. And frankly, I can't say
I blame them. If I was one of them, I
would say the same thing. Even though they love the script,
they love the role, they want to be part of it,
there's not enough money to do it at the right level.
That budget level is the catering budget of most of
(12:59):
the films they work on. If that it might be
just the craft budget half a million dollars. So they
don't want to stake their reputation on a low budget
indie film because it could be it could hurt their
reputation that they work so hard to build. So all
these people who throw around, oh I got to get
an a list actor that's the only way. Now, a
lot of people say that because distributors tell them they
(13:19):
have to do that. Well, of course the distributor is
going to say you should get A list actors. Why
because it makes the distribution that much easier for the distributor.
But what the filmmaker doesn't understand is that what they
what they should say to the distributors. Fine, I'll go
get a two million dollar A list actor to play
four days in a role, but you need to guarantee
me that you're going to sell the film for at
least you know, five million dollars or three million dollars
(13:42):
in order for it to be a good business venture
for me to take a chance at spending that much
money on this A list actor because the diste's very
convenient for distributors that you have a much better chance
of selling your film with an A List actor. Duh,
of course you do, obviously you do. The question is
is the cost of the actor is going to generate
that much more to pay for that cost plus a
(14:02):
little bit more. So all these podcasters throw this around loosely.
Oh yeah, let's get an A List actor. Oh yeah,
let's throw around this budget level like they're talking. Okay,
sometimes they're talking five million dollars. Have you ever tried
to finance a five million dollar feature? Like, if you
don't have a pre distribution deal, a minimum guarantee in place,
a complete strategy on distribution, what investor in their right
(14:26):
mind is going to put that kind of money up.
I mean, once in a while you can find somebody
who believes in it, is excited, and has a ton
of money. But most people aren't dumb. Don't think that
investors are dumb. They're actually pretty smart. That's why they
have a lot of money, because they're relatively smart in
managing their money. That's how they got the money. You
got to show them a viable business plan. But a
(14:47):
lot of these podcasts they're talking so loosely about throwing
around these big numbers and yeh, I could get this
in you know, in finance and that finance, And I say, no,
you actually can't, right you. You ever been in front
of these investors and talk that kind of like what
you're talking about is not viable to an investor. So
(15:08):
I wanted to do this podcast because I just want
to tell the truth. I just want to tell what
actually goes on now, I don't want it to be depressing.
I don't want you know, Jeff Ohwi, you're always talking
about what can't happen and what really happens, and it's depressing.
So no, it's not depressing. It's not depressing if you
know the truth and then you know how to deal
with the truth. So we got to start with what
(15:30):
really goes on out there, all right, And a lot
of the stuff that you're hearing through these various podcasts
and courses, you know, these fifty dollars courses or one
hundred dollars courses or something like that, is just not real.
I mean, it sounds good and the theory is good,
but in reality, it actually does not happen that way.
Networking doesn't happen the way they talk about it, you know,
(15:52):
pitching scripts, doing all this kind of stuff. It's not
the way the business actually happens out there. So my
premise is, let's let's set the stage. Let's set the
bar at what's realistic, what's actually going on out there,
what you're actually going to face when you actually go
to do your film, whether it be on the financing side,
on the production side, on the distribution side, let's set
(16:15):
the bar where it really is, and then I will
tell you how to deal with these situations. And I'll say,
you know, I say to you, you want to do
get a good distribution deal. You need to understand who
your audience is. You need to be able to work
with the distributor in terms of marketing. Now I'm not
saying you have to do it, but you need to
understand that that has to get done and that the
(16:35):
distributor is not going to do it. You hopefully need
to understand how to do a proper distribution deal. You
need to know what's fairer. So there's things that you're
going to encounter that you need to deal with, and
a lot of these other podcasts they don't prepare you
for that. It's kind of like, I hate to say it,
but a lot of film schools don't prepare filmmakers for
a successful career in filmmaking. They just prepare them to
(16:59):
be able to make a good film. But as I've
talked about before, making a good film is not necessarily
going to set you up for having a successful career
because you need to know how to monetize that good film.
You need to know how to get it in front
of an audience. What I really want to say is, look,
I don't want to bash all my competition and all
the people, but you need to know the truth. If
you can't if you're not starting at the truth, if
(17:20):
you're starting with myths and legends and ideas that you
hope are going to be that you want because because
they sound good, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and
probably failure because when you go out there and it
doesn't happen the way they said it's going to happen,
then you're going to be in trouble. You're not going
to know how to deal with it. And think, let
(17:40):
me give you one other example. Okay, people talk about
film tax credits, so this is a perfect example. So
they say, oh, it's a twenty five percent tax credit,
and I'm going to use that to finance my film.
Like I hear this all the time on other podcasts,
and I say, like, have you ever financed a film
with a tax credit? A low budget indie film. Let's
say you're making a million dollar film, will keep the
(18:01):
numbers easy, and you're getting a twenty five percent tax credit,
So that's two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Well, first
of all, if you've ever actually dealt with the tax credit,
you're probably not getting twenty five percent, all right. You're
going to get diluted a bit. A lot of your
costs are not going to qualify at the end of
the day on a twenty five percent tax credit. If
you end up with twenty percent, you're doing well. It's
(18:21):
usually eighteen or nineteen percent on average. All right. So
this two hundred and fifty thousand dollars tax credit that
you thought you were going to get usually ends up
being two hundred thousand or one hundred and ninety thousand
realistically because of the way the programs work, all right.
So when you're experienced, you know that. So you don't
call it twenty five percent tax credit two hundred and
fifty thousand. You call it, say, two hundred thousand realistically.
(18:43):
So this is what I'm saying. Set the bar at
the truth. Now people say, oh, I'm going to use
it to finance my film. To use a tax credit
to finance a film, you have to go and you
have to bank the tax credit, all right. So if
you're banking, say a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
tax credit, which actually isn't going to be two hundred
and fifty thousand. Even the banks know that they're not
going to bank the full two fifty. They're not gonna
(19:04):
lend you two hundred and fifty thousand dollars against eight
twenty five percent cap show because they know what I
just told you, that you're actually not gonna get two fifty.
They might lend you, if you're lucky, one hundred and
eighty thousand against that, they're gonna discount it down because
they're worried that you're not going to get that full credit.
Now you're gonna borrow money at one hundred and eighty
thousand dollars. Say so, you're still going to be seventy
(19:26):
thousand dollars short because you actually needed the extra seventy
thousand to shoot the movie. You needed two to fifty.
The cost of boring that money, it's gonna be thirty
or forty thousand dollars in setup fees and lawyer fees
and banking fees and all this kind of stuff. Plus
let's say to make the math thes you're gonna pay
ten percent a year and you're not going to get
the money for two years, So you're gonna be financing
that tax credit for two years. Say at I don't know,
(19:48):
one hundred and eighty thousand dollars, so eighteen thousand dollars
a year. It's at thirty six thousand dollars in financing
fees over two years. You know, just straight simple math.
It's more complicated than that, but I'm simplifying it. Plus
say a forty thousand dollars setup fee, so say seventy
six thousand, say seventy five thousand dollars in fees, So
now you're one hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Tax credit
really nets out one hundred and five thousand, less than
(20:11):
half of what you set out to do. That two
hundred and fifty thousand less than half. That's the reality.
So I say, don't finance tax credit. It's okay, But
if you're going to do this, understand what's real. Like
what I just explained is real. That's what really happens.
Then filmmakers go down that road and they say, hey,
where's meather one hundred and forty five thousand dollars, where'd
(20:32):
that disappeared to? I said, well, if you knew what
you were doing going into it, you would understand that
it never was real. This two hundred and fifty thousand
dollars that you thought was theoretical never actually happens that way.
It's not real. What's real is this one hundred and
five thousand or one hundred and ten or whatever you're
gonna get lucky to get. That's what's real based on
(20:54):
the model that you're talking about. So if you set
the bar to realistic place to start with, and you
understand what the truth is and the reality, then you
have a fighting chance of actually being able to be
successful and to deal with it. But in that situation,
I just said, you're going to be short one hundred
and forty five thousand dollars on your production just because
you didn't understand the reality of what really goes on
(21:16):
on the tax credit side. All right, and it's a
common mistake to make. But when you listen to these
other podcasters, they talk about that so loosely. Oh yeah,
you're gonna get twenty five percent, so you're gonna have
to two fifty. You're gonna do this, You're gonna And
I say, no, no, no, no, no, do you understand
what you're doing to these people, You're setting them up
for failure. You're setting them up, you're telling them a
(21:37):
myth and a legend. By the way, they're not doing
it on purpose. They're doing it because they don't know
what they're talking about. They're doing it, as I said
at the beginning of the show, because they don't know,
Like I feel like, have you ever actually done it?
Have you been down that road, have you financed? Have
you dealt with this? Have you touched and managed this stuff?
Do you know what the end number is? So when
(21:57):
you've done it, when you've actually done it, then you
understand and you can deal much more realistically. So I'm
not necessarily saying that they're misleading you on purpose. I'm
just saying the information they're giving you is not actually accurate.
They're not doing it on purpose to mislead you. They're
just I feel like a lot of them just haven't
dealt with this stuff, so they don't really know other
(22:20):
people deal with it, or they're not really connected to
what really goes on because I guess they've never seen
sort of the final outcome, and it's a common error.
It's so common. So I just want to tell you
the truth is the truth. Sometimes a little depressing, is
it's hard to hear? Yeah, but it's the truth. And
(22:41):
then in addition to the truth, I'll give you the solutions.
Are you going to want to do them? You're gonna
want to deal with them, You're gonna want to do
this business thing. You're going to want to manipulate this
a little bit differently? Maybe maybe not. It's up to you.
You're gonna have to make that decision. But at least
when you decide on the facts, on the truth of
what really goes on, it'll give you, it'll enable you
to have better chance of actually making the right decision
(23:03):
and planning the right strategy. So excuse me if I
get aggravated listening to a lot of this other stuff
and reading all these other things. And I've taken the
courses mostly because I'm curious to see what other people
are teaching. And you know, are they good people? Yet?
I know a lot of them, I know a lot
of my competition. I've spoken on a lot of their shows,
I've been guest speakers. Are they good people, Yeah, they're
(23:26):
good people, They're just misinformed. So is that a convenient
way of saying you shouldn't listen to them and you
should listen to me. No, you listen to whoever you
want to listen to. I'm just saying, try your best
to sort out the truth, to understand what is real
and what isn't. And sometimes it can be super, super
confusing because you, I guess, don't have the experience of
(23:47):
the foundation to know what's real or what isn't. And unfortunately,
sometimes people have to learn the hard way by making
gigantic what I call rookie errors because they didn't know
what they were doing going into it, and you know,
it's unfortunate. So I just I want to share the
truth with you. I want to tell you what's real
in all so these episodes primarily about distribution and marketing.
(24:09):
Obviously in finance. Can we talk about filmmaking, Yeah, we
can talk about what goes on on set and what's
in the speed at which you have to shoot, and
how much coverage you can get in a day, and
how not to do unit moves and could I talk
about that? I could talk endlessly about that, because that's
the efficiency of shooting a movie on time and on budget.
But that component, in some ways is the easiest component.
(24:31):
All right, a lot of people are irresponsible. They go
way over budget on set and they don't tuk away
money to finish their films and they But to me,
that's the easiest stuff. The hard stuff is understanding what
to say to an investor, how to be honest, how
to set up the pitch properly, but mostly how to
monetize the film at the very end, and what's real
and what isn't real. That's my message for today. It's
(24:53):
it's kind of hard to navigate what's real and what
isn't because a lot of people, you know, listening to
what i'm gonna call inaccurate information, and it's hard to
decipher what's accurate or isn't accurate. So listen to more
of my episodes. I'm gonna tell you the truth. I'm
gonna explain how it really happens. I'm gonna have guests
of people that I don't agree with. I'm gonna talk
(25:17):
on their shows and disagree with them. I'm gonna be
on panels. I did a panel with the American Film
Market last year, and I didn't necessarily agree with some
of the other filmmakers, and they didn't disagree with me.
Does that make me right and them wrong? No, it's
just a different perspective. I'm just saying that I have
a heck of a lot of experience in dealing with
the realities of this business, in dealing with investors, getting
(25:39):
them their money back, return on investment, distribution, marketing, all
the stuff that I'm going to say a lot of
other filmmakers don't have the experience with because they're basically
focused on making the movies. So you're gonna have to decide.
Good luck.
As a filmmaker and a podcaster, I listen to a
lot of other people's podcasts, and I watch a lot
of webcasts on filmmaking, and almost every single time I
shake my head and I say, have these people actually
ever made a movie? And that is the reason why
I wanted to do my own podcast, because I want
(00:20):
to tell the truth and the reality of what actually
goes on. If you want to be a successful indie filmmaker,
you need to know a lot about not just the
production of movies, but the business. We are going to
tell you the truth and reality of what really happens
in the indie film business. All right, welcome back to
(00:45):
the show. So not to be too arrogant, but I
have made nine feature films. I've distributed all of them,
I've financed all of them. They're all in the budget
range of somewhere between seven hundred thousand and one point
two million, very realistic. Plus I spent and most of
my career, the first twenty six years of my career
in distribution, both domestic and international, bought and sold hundreds
(01:08):
of independent feature films. I've done series, I've done lots
of stuff. So I'm going to say that I'm pretty
qualified to talk about indie filmmaking, not only the making
of the movies of which I've been on set. Of
the nine features that I produced, I wrote four of them,
directed four of them. You might say five because I
(01:29):
co directed one of them. So I've been integraly involved
in the actual making of the movies, and I've produced
all of them and line produced two of them. So
I've done all of the elements of the actual filmmaking.
So I'm very familiar what it takes to be on
set to make the movies. To plan, I do all
the scheduling myself. I do all the budgeting, all the
(01:50):
legal work, I do the financing, I do all of
this stuff that it takes to get a film made,
and in terms of directing, I do the shot lists,
all the rehearsals with the actors. I mean, I'm super
super involved in filmmaking when I'm making a film, but
that's actually not what makes me qualified to do this podcast.
What really makes me qualified to do it is that
(02:11):
I know distribution and marketing of films inside out. That's
where I focus most of my time and energy. That's
where most of my career has been spent. In the
distribution of marketing side of the film business. And also
I've spent a ton of time on the financing side.
So people say, how did you get your film's finance?
And I say, through private investors. I create the investment decks,
(02:33):
I create the ROI forecasts return on investment, the revenue forecast.
I mean, I know that end of the business because
I used to. I still do buy and sell films,
so I understand how it all works. So my expertise
really is in what I call the bookend stuff, the financing,
the distribution of marketing. Okay, do I know how to
make films the middle park production? Of course I do.
(02:55):
I know it really, really, really well. I know all
of the little tiny stuff. Would I be a good cinematographer, No,
because I don't know cameras and lens as well. Would
it be a good gaffer, No, I don't know lighting.
Would I even be a good actor, No? No. But
I'm a pretty darn good director because I know all
the elements that go into making good entertainment. All right.
So I just want to say that because I want
to qualify what I'm about to talk about. All Right,
(03:19):
I think that I am well positioned to give advice
to other indie filmmakers who want to try to be
successful indie filmmaking. Now here's the other thing. I want
to make it very clear. I focus on low budget
indie filmmaking, all right. I worked for a big media company,
a big public company for many years, for about ten years,
(03:39):
in their distribution division, So I know how the big
companies operate as well. They're vertically integrated, they're big public companies.
We represented a lot of the big brands. I was
in Canada at the time. We represented Disney, Columbia Pictures,
New Line. We had lots of big labels. Ultimately, I
ended up doing Barney The Purple Dinosaur. So I know
how the big brands work. But I decided that I
(04:01):
wanted to focus on indie filmmaking, which is low budget
small stuff, primarily because I'm entrepreneurial and I wanted to
make my own movies like I wanted to choose what
I wanted to make, and I wanted to control them.
I wanted to own them, and I felt confident that
I could do that successfully profitably because I knew how
to monetize them. I knew how to sell them. After
(04:22):
I made them. So my forte for the last i'm
going to say twenty years has been low budget indie filmmaking.
When I say low budget, I'm talking anywhere from two
hundred thousand to say a million in budget, So I'm
not talking necessary below two hundred thousand. I would say
that sort of micro budget filmmaking. That's a whole different mindset,
(04:43):
because frankly, I like to pay people. I don't really
even like to produce at that level. Frankly, I don't
even like to produce it anything less than a five
hundred thousand because I just don't feel that comfortable. I
can't pull in any more favors. You can't ask people
to work for free. You can't juggle all that kind
of stuff made nine features. You got to be paying people.
I want to pay people. I want to pay them
(05:03):
a fair wage. I want to pay locations a fair wage.
I just want to do it properly as a business,
and I know how to monetize at that level. So
I'm not saying indie filmmakers shouldn't work at micro budget levels.
They probably should. But you can only pull in favors
for so long. Then you've got to start paying people.
So my sweet spot are films from five hundred thousand
to a million. That's sort of my sweet spot in
(05:24):
terms of how to get them properly made, on time
and on budget, and more importantly, properly and successfully distributed
so that you can monetize them and get your money
back and hopefully make a profit. Right, That is my
sweet spot. That's what I talk about the most. I
don't talk about big budget Hollywood stuff. I really don't
talk about anything in excess of say even a million
(05:46):
and a half. That would be the most I would
ever talk about, and usually it's just a million. So
I wanted to just make that very clear because the
mindset and the strategies and the disciplines are different when
you're doing it at that level than when you're doing
it at you know, ten million or twenty million or
thirty million, whatever, you know, the bigger companies are doing
it at. So understand that my comments are not going
(06:08):
to be pertinent to those big budget films. It's different.
You've got bigger teams, you've got more resources, you've got
a lot more elements to work with. When you're doing
the smaller budget stuff, it's far more entrepreneurial. You have
to juggle way more balls, wear way more hats, doing
a lot of other things that you wouldn't otherwise have
(06:29):
to do in the bigger stuff. All Right, So I'm
dealing with five hundred thousand, two million dollars. I'm not
dealing with micro budget either. Again, different different sort of
skill set. So here's what I'm going to say. I
listen to a lot of podcasts webcasts of other people
in the industry. I only listen to the ones that
so called talk about indie filmmaking, independent filmmaking, because that's
(06:51):
what I want to hear about, you know. I want
to see what they have to say. Hopefully I can
learn something. I want to see what my competition is
talking about who they are. So I just want to
kind of be in that environment. I'm genuinely interested in that, right,
because that's the world I live in. Most times when
I listen to these podcasts, I shake my head and
I roll my eyes and I say, you gotta be
(07:13):
kidding me, Like what you just said makes absolutely no sense,
Like none of it's real. Have you ever actually made
a film at that level? Have you actually ever financed
a film at that level? Have you actually ever been
on a set, Like what you just said is not
realistic relative to what actually happens. And you see, I'll
tell you why. What happens is is people who call
(07:35):
themselves sort of indie filmmakers. The truth is they're either
doing micro budget films like for fifty thousand or you know,
seventy five or one hundred thousand, and they're pretending that
they're you know, million dollar films, or they're talking about
doing say five million dollar films at budgets of a
million dollars. These films are generally in development because a
(07:56):
five million dollar film is completely different than a million
dollar film, like five times different. All right, you make
five million dollar films for five million dollars. So when
they talk, there's just this disconnect that I feel because
I feel like if you wouldn't have said this, like
if you ever sat in front of a real investor
and pitched them on a real return on investment on
(08:19):
an indie film and actually told them, Okay, I guess
they tell them what they believed to be the truth,
but it's not necessarily what really happens out there in distribution.
So to their credit, I'm going to say generally, they
don't know, all right. So a lot of these people
are talking about this business actually have never actually even
worked in it. They've never actually done it. They just
(08:39):
have myths and legends and maybe listen to other people
because the stuff they're saying is not really happening out there.
It's not realistic. And by the way, I'm not talking
about what happened twenty years ago or even ten years ago.
I'm talking about what happens today and hopefully maybe what's
going to happen tomorrow. But we don't know, all right,
So I'm not talking Oh, in the good old days
of VHS and home entertaining and DVD and all this
(09:01):
kind of stuff that ship has sailed a long time ago.
I don't talk about that stuff, all right. I talk
about where we're at today, you know, at the time
of this podcast, where streaming is and not sure what's
going to happen to more with AI that type of thing.
But a lot of these people, these other people that
I hear talking, I mean, they're talking either about antiquated
stuff that maybe happened twenty five years ago, but the
(09:24):
truth is it actually didn't happen twenty five years ago.
Why Because I was in the business twenty five years ago,
and I know that what they said actually didn't happen,
all right, or they're talking they often talk about an anomaly.
So everybody, when you talk about horror films, the first
thing they talk about is the Blair Witch Project, all right,
a film that was made for supposedly fifty thousand dollars
(09:45):
and did one hundred million dollars at the box office.
So let's assume that that's real. All right. I don't
even know if those numbers are real, but let's assume
they are. Do you know how many films are like that?
One in ten million? Maybe that's called lightning in a bottle.
That is called winning the lottery. That is not the
film business. Can it happen, Yes, of course it can happen.
(10:07):
That's what I call the Hollywood dream. So every once
in a while something like that happens, and you know,
we can all name a bunch of them. The crying
game in Napoleon Dynamite. You know, we know all the
films where it happened, all right, So can it happen, Yes,
it definitely can happen. But it's not the business plan.
You can't expect to win the lottery. You can hope
for it, and a lot of people hope for it.
(10:29):
I even hope for it, Like why wouldn't I want
to win a lottery? Of course I hope for it,
all right. But my business plan is not buy the
ticket and you know I'm gonna win the plan and
the lottery and then I'm gonna live a good life. Now,
my business plans. Work hard, have a business, you know,
earn a living, and then once in a while, maybe
get lucky with something. Maybe. But if I don't get lucky,
it doesn't mean I'm not on a good trajectory, all right.
(10:50):
If I get lucky, that's a bonus. The way some
of these other podcasters and web postures speak, or the
guests that they have on, it's kind of like they're
talking about the naw the one in a million or
the one in ten million that actually hit. It's not
what normally happens. It's it's extremely rare that that stuff happens,
(11:11):
all right, So it's it's misleading. It's totally misleading to
talk about those films as though that's the norm. But
a lot of people indie filmmakers have this dream of
you know, basically their film being the Hollywood dream that
one film in ten million that actually hits it and
you know, one in ten million will or whatever the
statistics are. But it's just it's not realistic to go
(11:34):
into the business thinking that you're going to be that
one film. You can hope for it, but don't build
your business plan around it. So a lot of these
podcasters are talking about this and making it appear like
that's the norm. It is not the norm, all right.
So I roll my eyes and I say, like, why
are you talking? Why are you focusing on that? Let's
talk about the ten thousand other films that got made
(11:54):
last year that never got distribution, that never saw the
light of day, that lost a ton of mone. Now,
not that I want to be depressing, but let's set
the standards the way they normally are. And the other
thing that they always talk about is the big budget film. Right,
So everybody says, oh, I'm gonna make a you know,
an indie film, a five hundred thousand dollars indie film,
(12:15):
and I'm gonna get you know, Tom Cruise, He's gonna
love this script and he's gonna act in it. And
I say seriously, like, are you kidding me? At a
five hundred thousand dollars budget level, you were not getting
a list actors. Here's the reason. There's a few reasons
why you're not getting a list actors. Number One, they
don't work at that level. Number Two, even if it's
their script and they wrote it and they love it,
(12:37):
they do not want to be involved in a film
with that production budget being that low because the film's
not going to look big enough and they're going to
put their reputation at stake. And frankly, I can't say
I blame them. If I was one of them, I
would say the same thing. Even though they love the script,
they love the role, they want to be part of it,
there's not enough money to do it at the right level.
That budget level is the catering budget of most of
(12:59):
the films they work on. If that it might be
just the craft budget half a million dollars. So they
don't want to stake their reputation on a low budget
indie film because it could be it could hurt their
reputation that they work so hard to build. So all
these people who throw around, oh I got to get
an a list actor that's the only way. Now, a
lot of people say that because distributors tell them they
(13:19):
have to do that. Well, of course the distributor is
going to say you should get A list actors. Why
because it makes the distribution that much easier for the distributor.
But what the filmmaker doesn't understand is that what they
what they should say to the distributors. Fine, I'll go
get a two million dollar A list actor to play
four days in a role, but you need to guarantee
me that you're going to sell the film for at
least you know, five million dollars or three million dollars
(13:42):
in order for it to be a good business venture
for me to take a chance at spending that much
money on this A list actor because the diste's very
convenient for distributors that you have a much better chance
of selling your film with an A List actor. Duh,
of course you do, obviously you do. The question is
is the cost of the actor is going to generate
that much more to pay for that cost plus a
(14:02):
little bit more. So all these podcasters throw this around loosely.
Oh yeah, let's get an A List actor. Oh yeah,
let's throw around this budget level like they're talking. Okay,
sometimes they're talking five million dollars. Have you ever tried
to finance a five million dollar feature? Like, if you
don't have a pre distribution deal, a minimum guarantee in place,
a complete strategy on distribution, what investor in their right
(14:26):
mind is going to put that kind of money up.
I mean, once in a while you can find somebody
who believes in it, is excited, and has a ton
of money. But most people aren't dumb. Don't think that
investors are dumb. They're actually pretty smart. That's why they
have a lot of money, because they're relatively smart in
managing their money. That's how they got the money. You
got to show them a viable business plan. But a
(14:47):
lot of these podcasts they're talking so loosely about throwing
around these big numbers and yeh, I could get this
in you know, in finance and that finance, And I say, no,
you actually can't, right you. You ever been in front
of these investors and talk that kind of like what
you're talking about is not viable to an investor. So
(15:08):
I wanted to do this podcast because I just want
to tell the truth. I just want to tell what
actually goes on now, I don't want it to be depressing.
I don't want you know, Jeff Ohwi, you're always talking
about what can't happen and what really happens, and it's depressing.
So no, it's not depressing. It's not depressing if you
know the truth and then you know how to deal
with the truth. So we got to start with what
(15:30):
really goes on out there, all right, And a lot
of the stuff that you're hearing through these various podcasts
and courses, you know, these fifty dollars courses or one
hundred dollars courses or something like that, is just not real.
I mean, it sounds good and the theory is good,
but in reality, it actually does not happen that way.
Networking doesn't happen the way they talk about it, you know,
(15:52):
pitching scripts, doing all this kind of stuff. It's not
the way the business actually happens out there. So my
premise is, let's let's set the stage. Let's set the
bar at what's realistic, what's actually going on out there,
what you're actually going to face when you actually go
to do your film, whether it be on the financing side,
on the production side, on the distribution side, let's set
(16:15):
the bar where it really is, and then I will
tell you how to deal with these situations. And I'll say,
you know, I say to you, you want to do
get a good distribution deal. You need to understand who
your audience is. You need to be able to work
with the distributor in terms of marketing. Now I'm not
saying you have to do it, but you need to
understand that that has to get done and that the
(16:35):
distributor is not going to do it. You hopefully need
to understand how to do a proper distribution deal. You
need to know what's fairer. So there's things that you're
going to encounter that you need to deal with, and
a lot of these other podcasts they don't prepare you
for that. It's kind of like, I hate to say it,
but a lot of film schools don't prepare filmmakers for
a successful career in filmmaking. They just prepare them to
(16:59):
be able to make a good film. But as I've
talked about before, making a good film is not necessarily
going to set you up for having a successful career
because you need to know how to monetize that good film.
You need to know how to get it in front
of an audience. What I really want to say is, look,
I don't want to bash all my competition and all
the people, but you need to know the truth. If
you can't if you're not starting at the truth, if
(17:20):
you're starting with myths and legends and ideas that you
hope are going to be that you want because because
they sound good, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and
probably failure because when you go out there and it
doesn't happen the way they said it's going to happen,
then you're going to be in trouble. You're not going
to know how to deal with it. And think, let
(17:40):
me give you one other example. Okay, people talk about
film tax credits, so this is a perfect example. So
they say, oh, it's a twenty five percent tax credit,
and I'm going to use that to finance my film.
Like I hear this all the time on other podcasts,
and I say, like, have you ever financed a film
with a tax credit? A low budget indie film. Let's
say you're making a million dollar film, will keep the
(18:01):
numbers easy, and you're getting a twenty five percent tax credit,
So that's two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Well, first
of all, if you've ever actually dealt with the tax credit,
you're probably not getting twenty five percent, all right. You're
going to get diluted a bit. A lot of your
costs are not going to qualify at the end of
the day on a twenty five percent tax credit. If
you end up with twenty percent, you're doing well. It's
(18:21):
usually eighteen or nineteen percent on average. All right. So
this two hundred and fifty thousand dollars tax credit that
you thought you were going to get usually ends up
being two hundred thousand or one hundred and ninety thousand
realistically because of the way the programs work, all right.
So when you're experienced, you know that. So you don't
call it twenty five percent tax credit two hundred and
fifty thousand. You call it, say, two hundred thousand realistically.
(18:43):
So this is what I'm saying. Set the bar at
the truth. Now people say, oh, I'm going to use
it to finance my film. To use a tax credit
to finance a film, you have to go and you
have to bank the tax credit, all right. So if
you're banking, say a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
tax credit, which actually isn't going to be two hundred
and fifty thousand. Even the banks know that they're not
going to bank the full two fifty. They're not gonna
(19:04):
lend you two hundred and fifty thousand dollars against eight
twenty five percent cap show because they know what I
just told you, that you're actually not gonna get two fifty.
They might lend you, if you're lucky, one hundred and
eighty thousand against that, they're gonna discount it down because
they're worried that you're not going to get that full credit.
Now you're gonna borrow money at one hundred and eighty
thousand dollars. Say so, you're still going to be seventy
(19:26):
thousand dollars short because you actually needed the extra seventy
thousand to shoot the movie. You needed two to fifty.
The cost of boring that money, it's gonna be thirty
or forty thousand dollars in setup fees and lawyer fees
and banking fees and all this kind of stuff. Plus
let's say to make the math thes you're gonna pay
ten percent a year and you're not going to get
the money for two years, So you're gonna be financing
that tax credit for two years. Say at I don't know,
(19:48):
one hundred and eighty thousand dollars, so eighteen thousand dollars
a year. It's at thirty six thousand dollars in financing
fees over two years. You know, just straight simple math.
It's more complicated than that, but I'm simplifying it. Plus
say a forty thousand dollars setup fee, so say seventy
six thousand, say seventy five thousand dollars in fees, So
now you're one hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Tax credit
really nets out one hundred and five thousand, less than
(20:11):
half of what you set out to do. That two
hundred and fifty thousand less than half. That's the reality.
So I say, don't finance tax credit. It's okay, But
if you're going to do this, understand what's real. Like
what I just explained is real. That's what really happens.
Then filmmakers go down that road and they say, hey,
where's meather one hundred and forty five thousand dollars, where'd
(20:32):
that disappeared to? I said, well, if you knew what
you were doing going into it, you would understand that
it never was real. This two hundred and fifty thousand
dollars that you thought was theoretical never actually happens that way.
It's not real. What's real is this one hundred and
five thousand or one hundred and ten or whatever you're
gonna get lucky to get. That's what's real based on
(20:54):
the model that you're talking about. So if you set
the bar to realistic place to start with, and you
understand what the truth is and the reality, then you
have a fighting chance of actually being able to be
successful and to deal with it. But in that situation,
I just said, you're going to be short one hundred
and forty five thousand dollars on your production just because
you didn't understand the reality of what really goes on
(21:16):
on the tax credit side. All right, and it's a
common mistake to make. But when you listen to these
other podcasters, they talk about that so loosely. Oh yeah,
you're gonna get twenty five percent, so you're gonna have
to two fifty. You're gonna do this, You're gonna And
I say, no, no, no, no, no, do you understand
what you're doing to these people, You're setting them up
for failure. You're setting them up, you're telling them a
(21:37):
myth and a legend. By the way, they're not doing
it on purpose. They're doing it because they don't know
what they're talking about. They're doing it, as I said
at the beginning of the show, because they don't know,
Like I feel like, have you ever actually done it?
Have you been down that road, have you financed? Have
you dealt with this? Have you touched and managed this stuff?
Do you know what the end number is? So when
(21:57):
you've done it, when you've actually done it, then you
understand and you can deal much more realistically. So I'm
not necessarily saying that they're misleading you on purpose. I'm
just saying the information they're giving you is not actually accurate.
They're not doing it on purpose to mislead you. They're
just I feel like a lot of them just haven't
dealt with this stuff, so they don't really know other
(22:20):
people deal with it, or they're not really connected to
what really goes on because I guess they've never seen
sort of the final outcome, and it's a common error.
It's so common. So I just want to tell you
the truth is the truth. Sometimes a little depressing, is
it's hard to hear? Yeah, but it's the truth. And
(22:41):
then in addition to the truth, I'll give you the solutions.
Are you going to want to do them? You're gonna
want to deal with them, You're gonna want to do
this business thing. You're going to want to manipulate this
a little bit differently? Maybe maybe not. It's up to you.
You're gonna have to make that decision. But at least
when you decide on the facts, on the truth of
what really goes on, it'll give you, it'll enable you
to have better chance of actually making the right decision
(23:03):
and planning the right strategy. So excuse me if I
get aggravated listening to a lot of this other stuff
and reading all these other things. And I've taken the
courses mostly because I'm curious to see what other people
are teaching. And you know, are they good people? Yet?
I know a lot of them, I know a lot
of my competition. I've spoken on a lot of their shows,
I've been guest speakers. Are they good people, Yeah, they're
(23:26):
good people, They're just misinformed. So is that a convenient
way of saying you shouldn't listen to them and you
should listen to me. No, you listen to whoever you
want to listen to. I'm just saying, try your best
to sort out the truth, to understand what is real
and what isn't. And sometimes it can be super, super
confusing because you, I guess, don't have the experience of
(23:47):
the foundation to know what's real or what isn't. And unfortunately,
sometimes people have to learn the hard way by making
gigantic what I call rookie errors because they didn't know
what they were doing going into it, and you know,
it's unfortunate. So I just I want to share the
truth with you. I want to tell you what's real
in all so these episodes primarily about distribution and marketing.
(24:09):
Obviously in finance. Can we talk about filmmaking, Yeah, we
can talk about what goes on on set and what's
in the speed at which you have to shoot, and
how much coverage you can get in a day, and
how not to do unit moves and could I talk
about that? I could talk endlessly about that, because that's
the efficiency of shooting a movie on time and on budget.
But that component, in some ways is the easiest component.
(24:31):
All right, a lot of people are irresponsible. They go
way over budget on set and they don't tuk away
money to finish their films and they But to me,
that's the easiest stuff. The hard stuff is understanding what
to say to an investor, how to be honest, how
to set up the pitch properly, but mostly how to
monetize the film at the very end, and what's real
and what isn't real. That's my message for today. It's
(24:53):
it's kind of hard to navigate what's real and what
isn't because a lot of people, you know, listening to
what i'm gonna call inaccurate information, and it's hard to
decipher what's accurate or isn't accurate. So listen to more
of my episodes. I'm gonna tell you the truth. I'm
gonna explain how it really happens. I'm gonna have guests
of people that I don't agree with. I'm gonna talk
(25:17):
on their shows and disagree with them. I'm gonna be
on panels. I did a panel with the American Film
Market last year, and I didn't necessarily agree with some
of the other filmmakers, and they didn't disagree with me.
Does that make me right and them wrong? No, it's
just a different perspective. I'm just saying that I have
a heck of a lot of experience in dealing with
the realities of this business, in dealing with investors, getting
(25:39):
them their money back, return on investment, distribution, marketing, all
the stuff that I'm going to say a lot of
other filmmakers don't have the experience with because they're basically
focused on making the movies. So you're gonna have to decide.
Good luck.
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