WE CHAT WITH DAVID SCHILLING ON NORSE SYMBOLS, GANGS AND JAIL

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
Take a visit Life inside PRIs.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
L Welcome back, everybody. We have a great guest today,
DJ Shilling. He's a correctional officer in the state of Minnesota.
Over sixteen years of experience working with and teaching law
enforcement and corrections about jail intelligence processes, the ruins and
the also true hopefully I said that right. It's ASA,

(00:44):
t r U and security threat groups. So this is
going to be a fascinating conversation. You're going to be
covering some of his books, The Jail Intelligence Manual, how
jails can implement low cost and no cost intelligence practices
and proactively assist investigations, solve crimes, and enhance jail safety
and security. But hey, Roy also heading over to Iceland.

(01:05):
In other places, we're taking a look at Norse and
dramanic ruins and symbols. Didn't expect that, didit? Field reference
Guide for law enforcement and corrections. So we've got a
lot of fun stuff to talk about today. We'll be
talking about myths. You've never Owdin you ever heard of him?
We'll cover that too, and a whole lot more before
we get started. You know what to do, share, subscribe,
hit that I like, but you know we like it.

(01:26):
There's always any more time over the show. DJ Shelling Welcome, sir.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Hey, thank you, thanks for having me on, Thank.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
You, thank you for your service, and thank you very
much for the books too, all the time. Very kind
of him. So God to see which one I'm going
to start off with. Maybe before we get to the
intelligence component, we'll go into the Norse Germanic stuff and
then maybe we can apply how would you look for

(01:53):
that through your intelligence manual? So let's do this. What
is Norse and Germanic ruins and symbols? What is all this?

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Well, what a lot of it entails is it's the
essentially the ancient script that people from Northern Europe Scandinavia
used to write in from well, it all follows archaeology.
So if you're looking about the year fifty AD, ce
depending on your definition what you'd like to use up
to present time, so what people might normally call the

(02:27):
Viking rooms, even though they go far beyond that. So yeah,
it's a different way to basically express yourself in written form.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
They have a religion in a sense, not obviously in
the monotheistic sense, didn't they. I think they had a
polytheistic type of religion over it, didn't they?

Speaker 3 (02:45):
Ah, yeah, polytheistic. And well, if you're talking about Odinism,
which is a bit of a branch off of also true,
then you're talking heno theistic, where they still acknowledge all
the gods, but they focus primarily on one, which is
odin primary.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Guy, I think read this one, but I think Santa
Claus was based off of some Norwegian or Scandinavian god
that flew through the sky. Have you ever heard that one?

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Oh? Yeah, they go back and forth on that. That's
argued out all the time.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, I remember that it was. It wasn't really Santa Claus,
it was something else clause but interesting, So now has it?
I think in your book you mentioned in the BacT
that it was hijacked. So my guess is that something
has been distorted in these writings.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Ah, very much so. And what happened with a lot
of that was the runic scripts that are out there,
starting with well, we'll call it the most common one,
which it is. It's called the elder foth arc. Footh
arc is just simply the first letters of the Runic
alphabet fu thh A r k and the sounds that
they make. Ah, those have been around for thousands of

(03:58):
years now. And what happened was we get up to
about the early twentieth century, late nineteenth century over in Germany,
they had what they called the Volcish movement, and what
that entailed was it was around the same time period
he had all the different practices going on with spiritualism.
People are looking for alternative forms of spirituality. Same time period,

(04:22):
people were getting together, doing seances, everything else. People over
in Germany decided to take a look at the Runic
alphabet and they decided that, okay, this is the alphabet
of our people. It represents different things, not just sounds

(04:44):
in the language, but the ruins also have different meaning
to them as well, which can be religious, so on
and so forth. Quick history lesson. I suppose nineteen oh
two he had a fellow name named Guido von Liszt
who had eye surgery, and during this time he was
recovering from eye surgery, he was blind and during this

(05:06):
time he claimed that the god Odin came to him
directly and channeled a new runic alphabet through him, which
is called the Arminine script armin and ruins that all
the different runic alphabets have different varying amount of runs
in them. The elder fouth arc has twenty four. If

(05:26):
you go to the Anglo Saxon Futhorp, which was over
in the British Isles, you're looking anywhere from thirty to
thirty six ruins were added taken away as they needed
for basically so they had characters to be able to
make sounds for their language, whatever language they were speaking
at that time. But WeDo one list took this and

(05:46):
it's the first purely mystical runic alphabet that's out there.
It didn't have a practical use. It was strictly for
mystical purposes in order to I don't know how you
would describe it enhanced to help people get in touch
with wisepols, what they would call their Germanic spirit. That

(06:07):
type of thing.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
What was he doing it for me? It was either
a charlatan trying to get more followers. Was he trying
to did he have a moment changing a life moment change,
a life changing moments in his life?

Speaker 3 (06:20):
He was kind of one of those guys who early
in life he went off on different hikes out through
the countryside. He claimed that certain areas of the countryside
would appeal to him mystically, and he felt a deeper
kinship with the gods of the land. I suppose you
might call them in German, like you know, Thor would

(06:41):
be Donnar, so on and so forth. Odin would be Votan.
And it kind of went from there, that new rediscovery
of what he would call Germanic spirituality. He refers to
it a bit differently than I do. When I say Germanic,
I'm talking about the group of languages, which is how

(07:04):
they defined Germanic languages, as in not just German, but English,
a lot of the Scandinavian languages minus Finish for instance,
things like that, and where these ruins have different, various origins,
and there's a lot of speculation where they came from.
Some people say they even can perhaps descent from Paleo Hebrew.

(07:27):
That's one theory that's out there. Other people say ancient
Greek or Phoenician. It just depends on what the trading
routes looked like at that time as far as what
influenced what. But von Liszt went to the extent of saying, no,
the ruins are strictly German. This is where they come from.
They're purely German. They don't come from anywhere else. We

(07:47):
made them. And he didn't really promote that idea a
huge amount. But where that got promoted later on was
in the nineteenth you had this society in Germany called
the Tule Society. It's spelled t h u l e.
And within that society you had various people who ended

(08:09):
up becoming high ranking Nazi officials, kind of like a
good old white club.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
I guess you might say, kind of like the School
of Bones society type of thing or not. So I'm
trying to get.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
Now, but the skull and bones type society for people
who are into political revolution, trying to put the Nazis
into power. So, I mean, there were people who were
associated with the Tuley Society, like Hitler himself, But Hitler
never really subscribed to a lot of the stuff that

(08:45):
he called a cult nonsense. Hitler wanted Germany to be Christian,
although whitewashed non Jewish form of Christianity.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
It was kind of like his Christianity sound a little
bit to me, like the sword, arm and covenant ideology
that I used to hear about very much.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
So it's uh, yeah, the British Israelism type thing. Yeah,
where the lost tribes are the true inheritors of the faith,
and the Jews that are around today are actually impostors,
and thereof the devil, so on and so forth.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Let me do something dj real quick if we could.
So ruins the word ruins. That's like at the alphabet
or the writing system.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
Right, oh yes, yeah, refers to the lettering system in particular.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
And then Tuley was was there like a fantasy world
or land or something.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Tool Well, for instance, there's a I think it's Iceland,
what they call it Altima Tuley, So it refers to
a place place.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Okay, it's not a real place, or is it. I
thought it was.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
I don't know, not so much.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
No, Okay, So we hit over to the Nazis. They
were trying the biggest some members of the Nazi Party
were two lead members as well.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Ah. Yeah, they were very much into it. And some
of the people that were influenced by all this were,
in particular Heinrich Himler, the reichspeire Ss who led the SS.
He was very much into the occult and into trying
to establish ties with direct ties with the old gods,

(10:26):
that type of thing. Himmler himself thought himself a reincarnation
of an ancient German ruler named Heinrich the Fowler. That's
the kind of mindset that he had. A little bit
out there, yeah, a little yeah. I heard that Himmler

(10:46):
was a failed chicken farmer, so he had some things
he had to make up for, I suppose in his eagle.
So he did everything he could to make himself great.
But he grabbed on to that and then he had
his own sort of ruin master, a fellow named Carla
Maria Villagut, and Villagut was very very deeply into the ruins.

(11:09):
He went so far as to take von List's ruins
and kind of start to modify them, make them his own.
And that's where you have That's where a lot of
the different rituals that the SS would do kind of
stem from. Just now, keep in mind Odinism also true
all that there were other people in Germany who were

(11:31):
trying to practice this type of spirituality at the time,
but it wasn't party approved, and if it wasn't Nazi
party approved, you got to go to the camps. So
there were actually people. You know, the camps weren't just
for Jews. There were Freemasons, gay people, so on and
so forth. But they were also these people who were

(11:53):
practicing the wrong form of mysticism in there as well,
because they didn't want this other system of belief getting
out there. They wanted the people to stick essentially to
what you could call the Nazi religion.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
Wow, so it really started blending in.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
Oh yeah, everything everything blends in.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
And what kind of rituals were they doing? Do we know?
Because I know I've read about the Druids and they
had their own type of little things. Yes, I was saying,
I know, we got disconnected for a second, but the
Druids had a lot of different types of rituals that
we could see documentaries and things of that nature. Do
these characters have anything as well?

Speaker 3 (12:37):
Ah, there's a place in Germany called the Eksterrenstein where
there were ancient carvings on a lot of walls. Himmler
took that over and tried to make that a Germanic
shrine of sorts. There was Webelsburg Castle that's often said
to be the so called spiritual home of the SS,
where they poured a lot of money into conser struction

(13:00):
for this place and they made it into a ritual
chamber of sorts. And to this day you can still
tour the place from what I understand, and there's a
large job what we would call a sun and rad
it's a sun wheel of sorts that's inscribed into one
of the floors. Below that room, there's a ritual chamber

(13:21):
itself where there are twelve pillars around there, short pillars,
and that was meant to hold the ash urns holding
the ashes of dead SS generals, leaders, those who were loyal.
So they did a lot of stuff like that. A
lot of their stuff that they did for ritual was
formulated by themselves. I'm still collecting that material to this

(13:44):
day to see what it's all composed of.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
So I'm hard to find stuff, and unfortunately, some of
the only places you can really find this stuff is
you're buying it from people with questionable political beliefs themselves.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, that would make it interesting. But and I guess too,
you have a lot of variations like everything else, and
I've seen in these groups or even religion in itself.
Christianity I think has over three hundred and sevens three
and sects within Christianity because you know, there's a little
nuances that happen, and I'm assuming these groups have little
nuances as well. That makes it very difficult for you
to research.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah, definitely. I mean nowadays what also True where people
go and they worship the gods odin Thor, Freya, freyer
all that, and they don't even worship isn't even quite
the right word for it. It's more like they form
a kinship with these gods. They people within Also True

(14:46):
will always tell you I don't kneel to my gods.
I stand before them in respect and they respect me.
So there's a lot of that type of thing going on.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
Do they have I guess I'm looking at trying to
compare it to other religions, but do they have like
an afterlife as well? Haul a part of their game
as well?

Speaker 3 (15:07):
Ah Vaha is one part of the afterlife, and that's
for warriors who die in battle. There's also a place
called folk hunger, which the goddess Freea actually oversees that.
And one thing a lot of people don't realize is
Frea gets the first choice over those who die in battle.
Odin gets what's left.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Really, so there is that that didn't work out well. Well,
Odin's made a lot of big enemies how would you say,
enemies transactions throughout his time.

Speaker 3 (15:41):
His big thing was he was the wander, always in
search of wisdom.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Got it. I don't mean to make light of him.
I'm sure some people follow this in a non nefarious way.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. Also, true is broken up into
different branches. You have what you call the universalist branch,
where or anybody of any race or whoever could join
up as long as they have a belief in the gods. Yeah, welcome,
You're more than welcome to join us. Then you have
a branch called the folkish side that says, well, you know,

(16:14):
we're not going to be they'll they'll tell you we're
not going to be mean to you, but you're not
welcome to join our faith because you're not of the
same blood as we are. Then you have people they
call tribalists where it's like, okay, well you want to
join our religion, but you have to do a certain
set of things before you come in. You know, maybe
a ritual of profession, pass a knowledge test, that type

(16:36):
of thing. It you could still join, but they try
to keep the tribe, so to speak, a little more
exclusive rather than just letting everybody come in the door.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Crazy stuff. I'm going to take a little bit of
a journey with you here if you don't mind, for
the next few minutes for us to teach a class
called the psychology of Religion. I always found it fascinating
because we didn't debate. I want to make sure the
folks out there understood this. It wasn't a debate about
whether God was true, is there one God? Is there
three God? It wasn't about that. It was really how

(17:09):
do humans utilize religion? What does it do for us
as a human species? So it had nothing to do
with theology. It wasn't a theological debate at all. That's
not qualified. So that's way out of the game. I
can't prove God exists or does any of this, But
what I can do is talk about how humans use it.
So I guess I want to try to explore that

(17:31):
with you if I can. So when they look at
these gods or so, the head god is Odin, but
he doesn't get to pick a cheose something. So we've
got limitations with Oden. But do they pray to the
gods in times of I look at Christianity and there's
different versions of different ways God. Christians will pray to God.

(17:53):
Some will pray and think God cares about every little
thing that we do. Others will pray that now he
takes kind of the bigger route. Islam has a different
view of all lah. They don't usually burden him with
little things like I have an exam coming up next week,
can you help me? They won't do that. Allah is
more for the greater things. And then certain Christians will
believe similar. But do they do that too in this religion?

(18:14):
Do they pray to different gods?

Speaker 3 (18:17):
Well, for instance, they got up the sea and yard.
If a person is on a sailing vessel, they could
possibly do a sacrifice to Njord in order to ensure
that they have a safe travel. There's a symbol. A
lot of people call it a Viking compass a symbols
called the veg Visier, and it doesn't come from Viking times. Actually,

(18:40):
it comes from around the sixteenth century. So you're looking
at a symbol that has actually been christianized. It's a
runic symbol. It's kind of a synthesis of the two face.
I guess you might say, So you're using a runic
symbol the power because the ruins alone don't really necessarily
have to go with any one God. The ruins are

(19:02):
said to have power unto themselves, which humans can learn
to manipulate. But yeah, the Vegas here symbol was a
sign that people gave to get through stormy weather. It's
actually in the back of that coin I gave you
there too.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, I'm looking at the book that I was taking
forever to try to find it through the book, So
I looked at the Wayfair coin.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, if you look at the center symbol, that's a
Vegas runic compass.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Okay, yeah, yeah, Yeah. It's got a little circle, folks,
and then it has one, two, three, or five, six, seven,
eight lines coming out of it, and then they have
different shapes that almost look like some look like Minora's,
some look like a triedent.

Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, And all those little shapes and everything have different meanings.
Some are meant to collect power, some are meant to
expel power. It's really, I guess, sort of a runic
computer circuit that you're looking at, so to speak. Chip, Oh, yes,
absolutely so their curse.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
When you said power, it's to possibly curse as well
as to enhance strength in some capacity.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
A runic curse can be as simple as writing somebody's
name on a piece of paper using a couple of
different runs. One for one room is called isa it
just looks like a letter L that's not capitalized, And
the other room would be called Thorisas, which is up
like a line with a triangle sticking off on one side.

(20:34):
And if you layer those two runs on top of
the name in your own blood, let's say. And there's
a lot of talk about blood with a lot of
this stuff, because blood is said to help personalize the
spell to yourself, to enhance the power of the spell,
to magnify your intent. You would draw that over the

(20:55):
person's name, and that would cause them to become still
in life and to experience suffering. Because the thorough saw's
ruin is for pain, harm hostility, but it's also for
great power because it's Thor's ruin. The I saw ruin
is room for stillness, ice, that type of thing, so

(21:15):
that would freeze. It's meant to freeze things into place interesting.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
And I guess in the back of the book it's
funny because I know a lot I remember having I
forgot his name. I think it was doctor chestnutt. I
can't remember, but we had him on the show and
he was he studies Satanism. Satanm likes the Satanism also
throws in blood sometimes at least in the rituals. But
Satanist can be complicated. Because he was talking about we

(21:42):
have kind of a distorted perception. They don't really operate
like they did in the seventy movies that we used
to watch, and that they had all that stuff going on.
But I know in the back of your book, towards
the end you talked about it emerged a little bit
with Satanism as well. Is that where the blood part
comes in or is there other things.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
The blood part's always been around a bit. For instance,
if a person's a practitioner and they're making a set
of their own ruins, because you can take each room,
carve them onto a small wooden tile, which is the
traditional way of making them. Carve them on there. Then
you paint them in a color called red ochre, which
is like rust colored. A lot of practitioners will prick

(22:20):
their finger, put a couple drops of their own blood
into the ink, stirred up, and that'll personalize that room
set to that individual. So that type of thing that
has been around for forever. Really, you know, when you
consider what the also true ritual to bloat the bloat
the word itself means blood, so it's blood sacrifice. So

(22:45):
if you go back to the older days, let's say,
even around the Viking area Viking era, wouldn't be uncommon
to take one of your best cattle out and sacrifice
that utilize that blood, and then the worshippers would partake
of the meat afterwards. Interesting good and that brings a

(23:08):
lot to when you think about Christianity where they talk
about you shall not eat meat that has been sacrificed titles,
and a lot of people are like, well, what does
that mean? Well, that's kind of the practice that they
would be referring to.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
How far back does this religion go too?

Speaker 3 (23:25):
About twenty thousand years they figured before Christianity, then oh yes,
so if anybody's taking any ideas the other way around, okay,
although its kind of funny. Well, the modern day reconstructionists
who bought these religions back in the early seventies, roughly
there's a lot of borrowing from Christian ritual from pagan

(23:47):
rituals from the fifties, you know, Gerald Gardner and Witchcraft,
all that ceremonial magic. But they'll put a twist on
them and put their own God's names in the place.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
So on Elasta Crowley floating around the names we know.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
Not so much with this one, not so much with
this one. But if we dig deep enough into the ritual,
we can start to see where there's a lot of
cross pollination going on.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
I see my soft nomins would really enjoy the quote
on the back of the Wayfarer's coin, I do not
stop when tired, I stop when done. I like that.
That's a nice quote.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
That's that's my life philosophy, so oh yours?

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Okay, there I go. Is that a ruined philosophy or
just a DJ shooting philosophy here?

Speaker 3 (24:35):
I don't know if it's so much Runic philosophy and
Norse philosophy, any type of thing. That's uh. I just
take life seriously because we only have so many days
on this earth, and if you're going to do something,
going to it one hundred and ten percent and do
your best at it. If you fail, at least to
know you tried.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Very true. That's just a nice quote.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
I'm in my fifties now. Also, i have nothing to lose.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
I hear you, I'm fifty one. Mentality changes when you
cross over the five zero.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
Quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, you know, I'm looking at Okay, I'm thinking of
something else. I know again, folks, this is not a pejorative.
So when I'm looking at Catholics, Catholics have a different
way of praying to their gods. We'll have you sometimes
an intercessorary like a Saint or Mary. I remember speaking
to a priest about this. It was fascinating to see

(25:28):
why they did that. But do do they have intercessories
as well in the Ordic religions?

Speaker 3 (25:35):
Not so much. You in these fays you are. If
you're in these you kind of need to be a
person that's able to stand on your own two feet
and do for yourself. You can't pray to old and
come pray, come save me from this. You know, you
can do a ritual toad and then say you grant

(25:56):
me wisdom, show me something, But it's not going to
be like in the Christian sense where a divine being
is going to come down and save you. That only
happens in now the monotheistic base and maybe in the
Marvel movies.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Really, all right, let me have a couple more questions
in regards to the religion, and then we'll start switching
over again. How did you get from the lastes to
where we're at today? But the other one would be
so we talked about in accessories. The other oneld be
moral morality. Do they have a Ten Commandments sort of
thing as well?

Speaker 3 (26:32):
Ah, they have something called the Nine Noble Virtues that
was created by Now there's a few organizations out there
who attempt to organize also true so to speak. One
thing about also true and organism. Compared to Christianity, there's
no centralized leadership, there's no centralized organization. Really, there's no

(26:54):
set dogma. You can practice however you like. So anything
that you would see a book that's a ritual anything
like that, Uh, feel free to modify it. You can
modify it to however you wish, because there's no right
or wrong way to really do it.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
So we're kind of leaning now towards Buddhism a little
bit with the Eight Noble Paths and a little bit
there that's kind of funny.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
Yeah, sort of. I mean the nine Noble virtues. You're
talking stuff about like live your life with honor, ah,
you know, be a hard worker, be industrious, that type
of thing, and it's recommended. It's it's more of a
guideline than it is a commandment. I guess you might
say a lot of emphasis on acting with honor, not

(27:42):
acting with courage. H a lot of attempt to instill
what you would call warrior spirit with that.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
And now it's not to sound more like certain versions
like maybe shallow in certain little bit, more of the
Japanese element here with their samurai codes and things of
that nature.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Oh yeah. But at the same time, if you welcome
somebody into your house, you're to be hospitable to that person.
And I think that's where a lot of Scandinavian hospitality
to this day probably stems from. Was that old saying,
because back in those days, if a traveler was on
the road and the weather was bad, Yeah, that might
be the only person you had to rely on, and

(28:26):
that person was bound by laws of hospitality to take
you in and take care of you. The rules on
either side, nice rules on either side. That would have been, Yeah,
it would have been. It's far from what we have now.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Also, yeah, unfortunately today you have to be kind of
careful if you did that.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
Definitely, Definitely they didn't have fentanyl and PCP back then either. Tho.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
Also, well, one more I guess before we started hitting
over to the Nazis and how that switched over, is
so we talked about morality. How about we talked a
little bit already about the end times and what happens
in the afterliss, I guess I guess I'm looking now
is this is a two poor question. Certain religions will
have almost like a scorecard per se. In other words,

(29:18):
more good deeds compared to bad deeds will start putting
you either in heaven or you go to hell. Some
religions obviously have purgatory in the middle. Do they have this,
Do they have a hell? Do they have a heaven?
Is there hell? You just don't exist or you're going
to be.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
Within these space. There is no concept of sin, so
that's not something to really be worried about too much.
As far as where you end up in the afterlife
really depends on your deeds. You know, if you die
in battle, you go to Valhalla, you eat roast pork
and drink all day long, all night long, and then
during the daytime you fight out to the death to

(29:57):
so prepare for Ragnarok. And Ragnarok is it would be
like Armageddon, so to speak, the final Battle the End
of Times where.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
A couple of years ago. Okay, that was interesting, Yeah,
the first time. What the heck is that rags and racks.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
That's that's where the darker forces fight against the the a,
the lighter forces, the forces of light. Rather, sorry you're
talking there. The gods odin Thor. Everybody during that battle
has a destiny.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
There's a serpent called dorman Ganger, which the world serpent,
massive serpent said to live in the ocean that encircles
the earth. Thor is said to fight that serpent with
his hammer and he kills the serpent, but Thor gets
ah some of the serpent's venom into him. At the
same time, through one of the gets bit and Thor dies.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
You have fen the wolf, giant wolf, who was bound
originally to keep him from wrecking havoc on the world.
And tell me if that sounds familiar to anything in Christianity,
Satan being bound for a thousand years, there's.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
A lot of overlap with that, Harry Potter, for God's sakes,
right now, the Pascal is in Voldemorre and Loupin. I
mean there's a lot of overlap.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Well, they all these things come from somewhere.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
So yeah, always the serpent gets the bad rep.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
On the serpent and uh yeah, the wolf fen Rear
once he's released from his bindings, he does battle with
Odin and he ends up beating Odin. So that's how
Odin dies. And after it's all said and done, Uh,
Ragnarok is said to also be a rebirth because the
world's not going to end at that point. It's just

(31:54):
going to transform and you'll have some of the gods
that are bought back. The god Balder, who was the
most loved among all the gods, was killed by Loki
indirectly with a poisoned dart pel be brought back to life.
It's kind of a complex mythology that goes with at all.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
There's so many overlaps because it sounds a lot like
the Greek gods, the Zeus and the Gang. And do
you have any cross pollination between the gods and humans
like we saw with the Greek gods and the nephil
them and the Blanlar Now.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
Not so much, not so much like that. You don't
hear about a lot of people that are demigod so
to speak. How you hear about people maybe being descended
from Odin. There's people out there that claim that to
this day at all.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yes, I think Jesus was a traffic stock guard in
Czechoslovakia years ago. That one. All right, you've indulged me enough.
DJ that over to how did we get them? Well?
How far did it get into the Nazis? Did it
go up pretty high? Did somebody have Hemmler obviously was
following it to some degree. Did he push it among

(33:12):
the rest? Ah?

Speaker 3 (33:15):
Hemmler pushed it among the ss Primarilyler's Hitler's bodyguard, the
shut staff while protection for us a month amongst the
regular rank and file. Most of those guys being in
Germany were raised in the Lutheran Church, and that's just
how they kind of rolled with that.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Let me ask you something. You understand human behavior quite well,
especially in environments like the jail in the prison. Do
you think Himler really believed it? Do you think it
was a way of controlling and creating allegiance, because we
know some of these things can really you can develop
a very strong bond if you're all united for one
particular cause.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, that answer is twofold. Actually, Himmler was a very
manipulative individual. If he saw opportunity to manipulate a subordinate
would do so. One example is there was a guy
who was under Himmler, sorry, his name was Reinhardt Heidrich,

(34:12):
and Heidrich was at the Vancy conference where they came
up with the final solution for the Jews all that.
He was also the head of the Sika Hedsteins, which
was the secret police at that time, so they were
responsible for they were the secret police that was within
the Gestappo themselves, so to speak. Well, there was a

(34:34):
rumor one time that Heidrich's grandfather might have been Jewish,
and Himmler instead of saying no, no, you're one of us,
It's okay, just kind of let him go down that
path of insecurity so he could control him. Yet at
the same time, Himmler was a complete mystic, and he

(34:55):
did believe in a lot of this stuff, believing him
to be himself, be the reincarnation of ancient German rulers,
and always looking for some mystical force that he could
use to help win the war. Interesting, by the way, folks, again,
it was it was never about being helpful to other people.

(35:18):
That was really his own personal journey.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
I think in the end, crazy stuff. Again, we're talking
to DJ Shilling s E h I Doble l I
n G. Two of the books Norse Dermanic Ruins and Symbols.
It's r U n e S. Field Reference Guide for
Law Enforcement and Corrections. The other one is the Jail
Intelligence Manual Field Reference Guide for Law Enforcement Corrections. Can
they get these on Amazon?

Speaker 3 (35:41):
Ah? Yes, if you go to Amazon and type in
the search bar the words jail Intelligence, they'll show up
in the first two search results that you got.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
So interesting, all right, So how considered did it stay
within the Nazi Party? Did it start spreading to other
individuals outside to the general population as well?

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Yeah, it did start to spread there were still people
that believed in the different runic symbols, the mythology behind it,
the beliefs. There were some odd practices that came out
during that time that were suppressed that started to come back.
You had a guy, Oh he's I don't even know

(36:23):
if he's alive anymore, Carl Hans Vels. He took those
runs that Guido von List made that were the purely
mystical ruins and started up a whole school of magic
with those. You have people practicing now what they call
runic yoga, which is forming your body into whatever shape

(36:44):
of the room that you're trying to channel so you
can channel the power through you.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Is that what you meant in the book when you
showed the Nazis doing a symbol kind of like the
Seeguio notion, and you said that was kind of symbolizing
a ruin.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
Yeah, that's that. Stra was taken from a book by
a fella named Miguel Saranald. He was a really big
fan of Adolf Hitler. He was a Chilean fellow, and
he looked for every little tiny thing that he could
within both the Nazi Party and from Hitler, and with

(37:18):
the ruins and everything else. That religion. I don't even
know if you can refer to it as a religion,
but people call it esoteric Hitlerism, where you take every
tiny part of this Adolf Hitler's life and you attempt
to find some sort of greater meaning meaning with it.
It's it's kind of convoluted and messy, to be honest.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
It deals with a low it basically hit I guess
in his beliefs right, something like that.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
Quite a bit. But they talk about anything that they
could tie to something being Germanic. You know, the Nazi
salute having been originally the ancient Roman salute. Well, they
could tie it to that particular room, the sowillow room
or the salt room in the armanent footh arc, and

(38:08):
that way they could make that their own. It was
also a way of channeling power because the Nazis use
that particular runic shape as a symbol for victory.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Crazy stuff. Now you can go down by what a
hundred rabbit holes on this thing.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
Yeah, And the funny part is the average Nazi soldier
who would be doing the see Kyle's salute with the
stiff right arm, is not going to have any idea
about any of this stuff.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
No, probably not, do they have any I guess my
my last ones. We get ready to jump out of
this into how we got it into modern day. But
any influence from Levotski at anor huge?

Speaker 3 (38:46):
Oh yes, yeah, the very word airy in itself comes
from Ah. You have to help me out a little
bit here. What's She wrote a book talking about the
origin of her book, and the book referred to the

(39:06):
Arians as descending from people from Atlantis.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
That was an isis unavailable? Was it was the secret doctor?

Speaker 3 (39:13):
Was that the secret doctrine? That's it?

Speaker 2 (39:15):
What it was? I think that was a Mormon books? Mormons,
no offense to them, Yeah, okay, secret doctrin from Levanska.

Speaker 3 (39:22):
So that influenced the use of their word arian quite
a bit. So Arian went from being you know, all
the people from let's say, ancient Persia modern day Iran,
all of a sudden, it's oh, I'm Arian. I descend
from Atlantis, is what they'll say. So we're actually a
higher form of human being and everybody else is lower
than us.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Common dame, I see in a lot of different things, right.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
And we'll talk about that word a little bit more
once we go into the modern astr organizations too.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
Okay, I think we're getting we're getting closer here to
the what was the high point of it from the
Nazis to today? Was there it was a wave or
was it a slow progression to where we're at today?
Did it actually go up and down in popularity?

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Nineteen forty five hits Everything that was surrounding the Nazi
Party became immensely unpopular. You had a few people floating
around here, and they're still doing their research, still doing
their writing. But for the most part things kind of
died out until kind of until the aquarium Age hit,

(40:28):
so to speak, the late sixties early seventies. Then you
had people like Stephen mcnallan, who's still around. He was
the leader of the also True Free Assembly. There's a
guy named erv Slawson who wrote a book called The
Religion of Oden in the early seventies. He's still alive
about thirty miles up the road here for me in Minnesota, really,

(40:52):
I'm he's yeah, no idea where he's at.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
But for Son of Non Grata, I'm sure.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Yeah. Probably doesn't brag about his book. I'm guessing if
life taught him anything, but it's a. Yeah. The seventies
is where people started to take a look at these
different myths, and a lot of people look at the
poetic geta for that. That's a story. That's a series
of old oral traditions that were written down in Aroute

(41:24):
the tenth eleventh century by a guy named Snorri Stirlason.
He was a Christian monk actually, and he wrote all
these stories down so they would be preserved, all the
old miss So a lot of people started to reconstruct
ritual out of what they thought it should be. Everything

(41:46):
within also true. And odinism as far as ritual is
all reconstructed off of people's ideas of what it should be.
If they're smart, they try to follow archaeology, but there's
a lot of it was tradition, so a lot of
that got lost.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yeah, yeah, that's a big problem. So people start adding
things and kind of figure it out. Who are the
big leaders today.

Speaker 3 (42:12):
Or do we have any Ah, Stephen mcnallan is still
out there. The also true free assembly as far as
big leaders within also true. You don't have a huge
amount anymore unless you there's legitimate also true. That's still
over in Iceland and that started about the same time

(42:33):
as well, and that form of Also True is very different.
They're non racist. They're strictly about the faith itself, no
Nazi additions added whatsoever. And that started about nineteen seventy
two with an old Icelandic farmer who believed in the
old faith and he wanted to see that come back.

(42:56):
And I'll say his name for you. It's a little
hard to pronounce, swine Bijorn beIN Tinsen, all right, But
he started the A group called the Alsotar fe Legit
and the a's a true Assembly essentially, and to this
day it's a modern religion over in Iceland that's recognized

(43:18):
by the government. It's well respected. They speak out constantly
against racism and especially against people who take the beliefs
of Also True and try to marry it together with
Nazi beliefs. They're dead set against that and to me,
to me, that's very telling because if the people from

(43:40):
the source are telling you know, that's not the way
it goes, why are people still going that way?

Speaker 2 (43:44):
I don't know, but yeah, we've seen this pattern a lot.
I wrote a book five or six years ago. I
was just talking to an FBI agent before I talk
to you today and we were talking. I remember I
was tinally telling him that I wrote a book on
isis and it's very similar. Have individuals that distort a
particular religion to fit their their wherever they want to operate,

(44:06):
and they throw a lot of things in, they delete
a lot of things out, and it just kind of
becomes the morph susself into something new.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
It's fascinating exactly, especially when you have a faith like
this that has no centralized organizational common dogma. Uh, it's
a free for all, so you do whatever you feel like.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah, even if a centralized organization, you still have some
religions that have a hard time containing everybody to be
the same. I did do a better job at it,
but they still have a little bit of a challenge.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
But yeah, well yeah, because now there's a lot of
different things that happened within the Norse faith that are
if you really took a look at it, it's like, well, okay,
that's you really believe Loki transformed into a female horse
and gave birth to a horse himself or.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Uh, you know that's not the same one as the
one in the Native American religion.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
Then, so I think they have a little. Okay, no,
not at all. No, Loki within this faith is the
trickster god, kind of a force of chaos. But at
the same time he also gave the god some of
their greatest gifts. For instance, Odin spirit Gungnir. That was
a gift from Loki to Odin thorce Hammer. Odin possessed

(45:24):
a ring called droup near which every night would produce
nine different rings off it made of gold. So yeah,
Loki did provide a lot of good stuff to the gods,
but at the same time he made just as much trouble,
which then they would have to threaten him and say, Okay,
now you're gonna do what you did, let's.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Do this, because then we're about halfway through the show again.
We're talking to DJ Shilling, S, C H I, L,
L I, and G. The books are called Norse Germanic
ruins and symbols. Ruins are un e s and then
the other one is the jail intelligence Manual. I can
keep you for hours, but I know we're a limited times.
I had to bring it back, so let's switch over
and get a brief rundown of Now I'm assuming you

(46:07):
saw it a lot in the prison systems and the
jail systems is where you start picking up on this,
and this is what kind of motivated you to study it.
How do they get there?

Speaker 3 (46:18):
Well, yeah, the early nineteen seventies, this stuff starts coming out.
Gangs within the prison system have always separated by race traditionally.
The way I see it, and I'll have to paraphrase
a lot of the reading that done, I suppose, but

(46:40):
it was a religion that white people could grasp onto
and claim as their own, that nobody else could share
with them.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
Now white people, meaning particular white people, do that include
all of Europe, East and West years it just particularly
Nordic countries.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Well, in this context numb referring to prison inmates who
are part of this white group. Yeah, you know, uh,
you know, we might have the Nation of Islam over here.
You know, all the groups who are with the Mexican
gangs might have Santa Marte and we have Odin. Okay,

(47:13):
that type of thing. That's kind that's kind of where
I was going with that.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
I guess. I remember interviewing an inmate last year. Nice guy,
he got out found christ I think after being in
the shoe for about eight years. He's been out for eighteen. Yeah,
he was the guess what they call it? Shock collar?
Oh okay, yeah, so he got a incredible story actually,
and he got out and he's been preaching now for

(47:40):
seventeen years. But they went to Christianity. So what percentage
do you think go to Christianity in the white group.
We'll just stick with the white group for now. But
in the white group and go to the Nordic religion?
Is it a fifty to fifty split or is a
very small set that goes to the Nordica you think,
I know that you're probably just guessing here.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
But if they don't go with the Nordic, they'll at
least go along with it.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Oh really, so.

Speaker 3 (48:07):
At least in at least in this state, I know,
I mean you have Minnesota is a little bit different.
A person can sail through the prison system as an inmate,
as an independent. If you're a strong person and won't
stand up for yourself, you can kind of get by.
Unlike other states where you're almost bound to stick with
your own racial group. It would still be suicidal here.

(48:28):
I think if the blacks, if you had a group
of blacks versus whites, and you took the side of
the blacks. As a white guy, you're probably going to
get it. You're still obliged to stand up with what
they would call your own that type of thing. As
far as what side, actually, there's a few really hardcore

(48:50):
believers I've talked to during my time. Rochester, where I'm at,
it's kind of a unique place. We have male clinic here,
so we get people from all over the country that
come here and they stay. So one day I could
be talking to somebody who was a skinhead in the
Inland Empire out in California. Another time I got a

(49:11):
guy from Arizona. Might have Arian Circle member from Texas,
and then a Supreme White Power member from the Minnesota
prison system and anywhere in between.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Crazy stuff. Yeah, I was going to ask you this question,
but I think I want to wait. I was going
to ask you the differences between Arians and skinheads and
all these other groups. But I think we have a
guest next week. By the way, folks, Mattson Browning. And
you know him, don't you, DJ.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
Oh, Yes, Matt Browning. He is a great guy. Him
and his wife Tawny just wrote this book. It's called
The Hate next Door. And if you really want to
get into the psyche, the mindset of what the different
white power groups are like, what the neo Nazi is thinking.
You got to read it. It's a must. It's a solid,

(50:01):
solid book. Matt spent a lot of years undercover infiltrating
these groups and getting to know what they're like, what
they're made of, how they think, to the point where
PE's had his life in danger of more than a
bunch of times. So I've got a lot of respect
from Matt. I Yeah, I can't recommend it enough.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
Interesting. Yeah, we're going to see him in a week
or two. Folks who hang sight for that. So tell
us a little bit about how this group operates in
the prisons and jail systems. Now, when you talk about
jail system, are you referring really simply to the jails
or you're also referring to how the operating in prisons
or does it change?

Speaker 3 (50:36):
It does change a little bit in the prison system
here in this stage, people have a little more freedom
at some of the prisons here. For instance, if you
practice dative American faith are also true, there's an outside
area that's actually set aside with a stone ring and
a fire pit. The also true guys will have their
drinking horn, all that stuff like that, so they can

(50:59):
practice their vituals. That's all shared space within the jail system.
We're a lot more limited on what we have for
a budget that type of thing. And we also don't
have worship spaces really set aside. They're all shared spaces.
County jails being a much smaller budget. Religions practice a

(51:21):
little bit differently for the jail that I work at.
At least I try to help with whatever. Also, true
literature comes in, so I can see what it's made of.
You know. If there are things in there that start
referring to, okay, the Aryan race, that type of thing
starts to deviate outside of pure Norse faith, that book

(51:41):
doesn't come in. But they offered a reasonable alternative at least.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
But what kind of behavior do they have in there?
I mean, let me see if I want to start
that angle or not. Well, actually, before I start that angle,
do they have Do they operate the same as over
here in the wests in California Arizona area they upbringing
like that where they do a lot of commands in
different territories. Is that something that they do as well?

Speaker 3 (52:06):
In no not so much, nothing like that, at least
within the jail system. It's it's a small it's about
a medium sized jail, so everybody's intermixed. We don't have
the gang separated out, nothing like that. Everybody's expected to
be decent. Where I live here, there's enough income in

(52:27):
the local area to be sure, there's enough drug money
for everybody to go around, So we don't really have
those types of rivalries a huge amount. The only time
I see it happen is if we get a younger
guy coming in who's just starting to get into it,
and he's all enthusiastic and he starts hollering white power
and he gets punched in the face. Well, a lot
of the time, the older guys who are ah, you know,

(52:51):
part of the skinhead groups, the neo Nazis, we'll pull
the younger guy aside and tell him knock it off.
It's bad for all of us. In Yeah, there's always
a form of peace that's enforced, and it's always enforced
by the person's own group, because if it's bad for business,
well are.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
They having the same issues some of the other gangs.
When I've talked to gang experts from the bloods and
the crypts. They seem to be having a conflict between
the ogs, the older generation and the new generation. The
new generation thinking you guys are too soft because you
have these codes. Are they having the same kind of conflict.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
Well, not that I can see. As far as the
prison system here goes, I don't think that the whites
are necessarily having that same type of conflict. They have
a different agenda. And while they might use the drug
trade to make money for the cause, the cause. Their
cause isn't to make money selling drugs. Their cause is

(53:49):
to you know, one, protect themselves, whether in the facility.
But two, if they're a true believer, their cause is
to help the white race along. And if they're a
form of extreme is called an accelerationists, they want to
see society collapse entirely so they can put their own
system in.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Okay, now we're talking so well, I got two questions.
Do they proselytize.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
They will take young guys aside who first come in,
young white guys, Like I've seen it before. Look at
a guy arrested for a DUI can't afford to pay
the bond to get out and go to the housing unit,
be looking lost, and a couple of the older guys
will say, hey, come on over here, kids, sit at
our table. You can eat with us, and kind of
goes from there. The next thing I know, it's on

(54:42):
Sundays we have clippers that people are allowed to use
hair clippers. All of a sudden, the kid is sporting
a nice fresh cut haircut, and you know, just do
a cell search. And I'm a firm believer this kind
of goes into my next book, Jail Intelligence Manuel a
little bit too. But if you do a cell search

(55:03):
and you are looking around, take a look at what
the person is reading. Because if I walk into anybody's
house and I just look at their bookshelf for a
couple of minutes, I'm going to get a good idea
what that person's about.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Now, what's the benefit for you to find out what
he's about? In other words, if you see, Okay, this
guy's into this stuff, or at least he's learning, is it,
how to talk to him, how to handle it to
what to be aware of? All the above?

Speaker 3 (55:33):
Definitely all the above. There are going to be people
out there that when they start to get into this stuff,
I want to know how they're thinking. Is progressing. What
are they doing? A lot of these guys are gonna
end up going to the prison system, so it's nice
to give the prison system a heads up. Hey, watch
out for this guy because you know he's trouble. He

(55:55):
likes to pick fights, because he considers himself a racial warrior.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Say, he could be an accelerationalist. As you mentioned a
minute ago.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
That type of behavior what happened outside probably more than
it would inside, got it. I think if you tried
that type of stuff inside, you'd probably get the older
guys stabbing you, because while they're all for white power,
at the end of the day, it's still about doing
their business inside, making their own lives comfortable.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Pr stuff. No, it doesn't apply there, right, All publicity
is good publicity? Yeah you no, sort of not really
well there though.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
It's human behavior, so it's about, as you know, predictable
as anything else, maybe a lot just stickable as lottery
some days.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
So fascinating, Okay, So it helps you understand them. Did
it change the way you talk to them at all?
I mean, did you use words like hey, I know
that symbol? Did you be able to connect that way
or you didn't bother because maybe you would lead them
on in a wrong way.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
I don't usually have to bother with that much. I
one thing you can't see too much. I have tattoos
all over the place, and they're all they're all black
and white symbols. One of the symbols I've got before
I ever started that the jail, was a Celtic cruss.
That's on my right arm, my right forearm. It's actually
h the illustration of an Irish gravestone. But the guys

(57:21):
will see that and be like, oh, and I have
to say no, no, no, don't go there. But I
I just kind of play it off. How you talk
to people, be respectful, but you know, at the same
time say no, I'm not going to do that, that's
not appropriate. Whatever. You still have to put that line

(57:44):
in the sand and say don't cross this. Well at
the same time managing to I don't want to say
be friendly with people, but you know, be nice. Be
nice gets you a long ways.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
Let's say if I was becoming a CEO, m H,
would my color be a problem? No, they wouldn't bother
with me on that point.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Nope, nope, not unless they're not nless they're a jerk
to be honest with you. Interesting in our jail, I've
seen guys selled up. One guy was mister hardcore skinhead
with a big swastika tattooed on his chest. The other
guy was a gangster disciple from Chicago. Six months later,
the gangster disciples getting released from jail. They exchanged phone numbers,

(58:29):
gave each other a hug, and agreed to stay in touch.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
That's a nice story. Nice Why they're getting in touch,
I don't know, but nice story. Nonetheless.

Speaker 3 (58:39):
Yeah, yeah, probably a business transaction of some sort happened
later on. That's about all I could imagine.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
Yes, they're becoming less discriminatory some of these gangs nowadays.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
Oh that's instead of you have to keep in mind
a lot of stuff and the prison system, all that
jail it is for shoal. You have to present yourself
a certain way otherwise you're considered weak. So yeah, it's just,
you know, it's all a bunch of macho human psychology.

(59:10):
I guess you might say, where being machols almost an
exaggerated thing.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
We can go down a lot of rabbit holes here, DJ. Yeah,
looking at the background of the psychology of this. Yes,
because I'm assuming a lot of them probably didn't have
fathers around or any kind of mentor that way.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
Well that's just dad. It's you're taking the young guy
who's got three or four DUIs, can't bond out of jail.
Do you find out, okay, you only comes from a
split up house. Dad's out of the picture since he
was four. You know, a mom spent with the string
of guys, and he's just kind of raising himself doing whatever,
while all of a sudden there's an older guy offering

(59:49):
him direction who actually seems to care goes a long way.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
It's the key every time, every time I talked to
gang experts, and you know, on the other the flip
side of the corner, I've talked to athletes and special
forces who had homes like that. This is where not
everybody ends up this way, because some of the guys
that I've seen are Green Berets who come from broken homes.
And I said, well, how the hell'd you pass the
Green Beret coming through all this stuff? And one guy
has mom was addicted to drugs, his father left at three.

(01:00:17):
She had a string of mint as you mentioned, and
I'm thinking, well, how did you pull it together at
this age, because most of the people that I know
who've done that kind of lifestyle tends to go the
wrong way. And he said, the number one thing I
always hear is mentor I found somebody who cared about me,
and I wanted to make them proud of me. And
it kind of goes along the lines here just the

(01:00:38):
opposite way. They found somebody. It was just unfortunately an
nefarious individual. But again, yeah, it's interesting people human beings
are just so desperate for that need.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
To Oh yeah, that's all this reference to brotherhood, all
this reference to family. You know, it's I'm kind of
funny about that stuff. I mean, a lot of workplaces say, oh, no,
we're family. I'm like, well, if we're family, it's a
bit of an ancestous workplace. But do you think whatever
you like?

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
And you know, that's a motivating factor. They know that
for sure, and that's appeal. That does appeal to some
people as well. And I get what they're saying. Yet
it's like family, you back up your brother, you back
up your sister, And that's that's always a given right there.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
That's always going to happen, no matter how much we
might infight.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
So yeah, and noh knows. Well, I'm not going to
get into that. But are they also associated all with
the omgs. We're seeing a lot of overlap there and
now out a lot of motorcycle games.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
There is some yeah, we uh, there are certain groups
Hell's Angels for instance, I'll use some runic symbology. Uh.
There are a lot of guys who there. There's a
group called the Arian Cowboy brother Uh. Yeah, the Aeron
Cowboy Brotherhood. And they're a small biker group that originated
out of I can't remember what state originally, but there's

(01:01:57):
a group of them here. There's some in Wisconsin. They
use a lot of runic symbology. Of one of their patches,
it's the Hammer of Thor but nowadays there patch what
the that's the Hammer of Thora. Help is red and
white and it has an eighty one in there for aja. Uh.
They're kind of a Hell's Angel support group.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
Now I'm looking at your book, Jill and Till and
just manage. I know we didn't cover a whole lot,
but there is some stuff. A lot of this stuff
here is really actually situational awareness stuff that you bring
up in here.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
Every bit of it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Yeah, just about right, really a situational awareness manual. You
got the oodle loop in here. How do you listen
to people? What they're looking like, what kind of symbolology
they have? What do you think if you can't condense?
This is probably the most difficult question for you in
this hour. What do you think of you condesced to?
Three things that CEO new Coo comes to DJ says,

(01:02:53):
all right, I'm here for my first day. What does
DJ say? These are the three things you really need
to know before we get the ball rolling.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
Be respectful to people. Be nice, that's the first thing.
The second thing, don't compromise yourself ever, as in, don't
be so desperate for information that you end up doing
a favor for an inmate. Let's say, all the guy's
gonna give me info, I'll sneak them in a pack
of cigarettes. Don't ever do that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
I heard the cigarettes.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
Yeah, all of a sudden, it's manipulation like that. And
the guy says, Okay, here's what's up. You did this
for me. I'm gonna tell on you unless you start
bringing me dope or if it's a female, well, you're
gonna give me some sex in the cleaning closet down there,
where there's no camera or otherwise I'm gonna tell on you.
And that's how people go down that black hole. So yeah,

(01:03:48):
that's you gotta put your safeguards in place first. And
that's what I would say situational awareness that's going to
develop in somebody over time. When a person's new, you're
too learning all the different procedures, practices, everything else. Once
you learn how the system works, what your post orders are,

(01:04:08):
when things run, so on, and so forth, you're able
to start being a resource for the inmates answering questions.
Then you can start to delve into Okay, what's that
symbol over there? I mean, okay, I'm gonna walk by
the phone bank. Now what's going on? Oh I overheard this, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Oh no, go ahead. I was going to ask you
what's things like that? Did you did you found very
useful for you? Like the phone bank Obviously, hovering around there,
if you hear all of a sudden there's a lot
of chit chatting and then it goes quiet. I'm assuming
you probably picked up some of these things over the
years that you're like red flags for you anything like that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
Oh yeah, well, God, if you walk around and all
of a sudden, the unic goes quieter, a group of
guys goes quiet. Yeah, that's definitely red flags. Time to
step back, Uh, kind of watch them, see what they're doing,
try to pick up on things. If you're going to
do your cell searches, maybe search one of their cells.
See if there's anything there, any little notes written back

(01:05:04):
and forth to each other. Uh, see how they're running
around with the same thing. If you see a group
of guys talking and they're guys who don't normally associate,
that's a red flag too. You know some guys, some
guys float around the guys I'm referring to, or the
ones we would call security threat group members, gang members.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
How about walks, gates, anything like that where you start, Like,
I know, criminals think they're so smart sometimes, but they
sounder when they're walking aimlessly. And I know it's still
a jailed in a prison. It's like they can't go anywhere,
but I'm assuming they probably have purpose a lot of
times to go someplace. But is there anything like that

(01:05:51):
you're ever looking for, Like why is this guy just
kind of smoothed to do lazy wandering around or or
anything flags like that or now, Yeah, pens.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
If it falls out of the person's normal pattern of behavior. See,
once I come to jail, it's not quite like a
street cop. We have them from six to nine months,
and that's quite a long time to get to know somebody.
So you know, after about a couple of weeks to
a month, you've got a person's habits pretty well figured out.

(01:06:21):
If they start acting outside the norm, that's when I'm
going to start to question, Okay, what's going on? Like
another thing that would be the guy's always out talking
to people. Now he's in a cell constantly. What's going on?

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
Was he threatened by somebody? Is what's brewing up? Is
he inside the cell making a weapon?

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
What do we?

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):
You know? What are we doing? Where we're going here?

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
We learned a lot today about this group. We learn
a lot about the religion itself. We learned a little
bit about the prison and jail system. Are you looking
for a lot of these symbols as well? I mean,
do they write these things in the walls and in
places and messages in these kind of in this ruin?

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
Ah, The one place you can always find them is
in tattoos. Guys will sit and show me their tattoos,
and they'll say, oh, yeah, you have ruins on yourself too,
and yeah, I do. That's this one right here. That's
what that's what we call a bin ruin, a runic ligature.
That's a whole pile of ruins stacked one on top

(01:07:23):
of the other. It just spells out my name, David.
So as that before or after this whole I actually
got this before I started there. This stuff has always
been fascinating to me.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
So the shilling is German, isn't it. Yeah, okay, so
you got a German background. Yep, German Englishman's Okay, yeah,
I can see why that would be appealing. I mean
it is. It's, as you mentioned actually earlier on in
the interview, the superhero component of it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
Oh yeah, that's kind of the funny part. Some guys
start to get into this and all of a sudden,
it's like, wait a minute, that's a kind of sound
like you're in a Marvel movie now or something. What
are you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
That's weird?

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
Oh they'll see I got this cool hammer of thor tattoo,
and you look at it and you know it's the
one Christopher Hamsworth was waving around in the movie and
it's like, oh yeah, nice, not traditional, but nice ruin.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
Just Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Well yeah, exactly so, and people watch all that stuff
and it influences them. The show Vikings on the History.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Channel, Yeah, what about that American History.

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
X Not so much anymore. It's too old now, yeah,
a little bit too old.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
Thanks a lot, TJ. I appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:40):
I'm right there with you. I'm right there with you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
I always like to say that when I talk to
a nineteen or twenty year old and I'm telling about
the movie and they're like, huh, Tom Guns are like
Saving Grace I got thanks to the remake.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
Okay, yeah, let's tell me about it. Jerry Maguire was
just on TV and I'm like, oh god, they all
look so young.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Oh yeah, they weren't even remember that one. So okay,
so it's now it's thor in the Vikings movie. I
thought there was something else, wasn't I guess Frozen wouldn't count.
I don't think a Frozen count.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
No, No, not really. I don't think.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
Yeah, do you have four comic books floating around? Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
Yeah? Those are? They have those in the sixties and seventies.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
No, But I mean, do they float around and that
group are not They're not going to go that way.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Ah, not so much. I've seen some inmates with of
all things, thor coloring books, okay, the Marvel Comics coloring books,
something to past the time. I guess I was a
little bit different. I kind of chuckled myself a little bit.
It's like, Okay, the Savior of the White Races and
using this coloring book today, that's great. Whatever it keeps

(01:09:49):
the peace, it doesn't matter to me.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
So DJ gives them another two. There's a couple of
other ones.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
Yeah, it's just dad. It's a like I said, it's
then you have the show Vikings that influences people. All
of a sudden, you have somebody coming in I'm go
an descendant of Bragnar Lothbruck and all this stuff. And
one of the things I teach in my classes is
a genetic mathematics. Well, if we start going back far enough,

(01:10:20):
by the time we hit like the thirty ninth generation,
you have approximately almost five million grandparents at that point.
So guess what entire countries descend from this one person.
You're not unique, not to mention. Once you start breaking
down genetic material over the course of time like that
you have known you have none of his DNA, or

(01:10:42):
if you do, it's this tiny, tiny little remnant. So
you know, I tell people that's great if you have
awesome ancestors, but you still have to make your way
for yourself in this world.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
Yeah, they're not here to do it for you. DJ,
I can't thank you and never been a fan conversation.
Like I really said, I could keep you here for hours.
I'm sure we just barely touched the tip of the
iceberg on this whole stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
It's uh, yeah, if we were going into to an
extensive history of how things progressed through even the Volcas era,
the Nazi era, we could easily fill up a few
hours with that, just going over to particular idiosyncrasies. And
I have to bring it back. So much history there, folks.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
Again. The books DJ Shillings the author the books Norse
Dermanic Ruins and Symbols, and the other one is the
Jail Intelligence Manual. I highly recommend both books. It's reinterested
in learning more about this, you can check it out
if you're in law enforcement, if you know anybody who
is highly recommend it definitely will help out. DJ. Thank
you so much for being here. You wanted to add.

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
Something, Oh I was gonna say. If anybody wants to
get a hold of me, you can also go to
my website ruin Research. Are you any research? It's all
one word dot com and if you have any questions
or anything, there's a contact form at the bottom. Feel
free to hit me out there.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
You go, folks, go check out ruin research. You know
what to do, share, subscribe, hit that I like button.
You know we like it. Check out ruin Research. Everyone,
have a good one.